I am all for some progresive education. Get the kids intrested, have them actually participate. Get their little grubby hands dirty with it. We need to do away with "Everybody is a winner for participating " trophys and really teach the kids.
Here is an article about some of the worst types of "Progresive Schools".
http://www.buzzfeed.com/hillaryreinsberg/10-bizarre-schools-from-around-the-country Why as a parent would you do this to your child? Some of these schools dont use Books!
Parents should do some teaching before kids get into schools... They should also interact with their schooling in some way even if it's just homework and projects... Schools take a lot of crap unfairly IMO...
I agree with Purple. The learning doesn't simply stop because the school day has, nor does it wait for the school day to start.
It's just easier to make them all feel special and to just shove all responsibility onto someone else. Schools just happen to be an easy target for this. Then when you think about it, if a parent is completely unreasonable it is much easier to call the child special instead of a distraction to the others that are actually trying to learn.
Yes they do. I also belive its a parents responability to make sure they kids are getting a proper education. On the other hand some of these schools from that article DONT USE BOOKS! for godz sake. They think education includes "how to pet animals".
Nicorex wrote:Yes they do. I also belive its a parents responability to make sure they kids are getting a proper education. On the other hand some of these schools from that article DONT USE BOOKS! for godz sake. They think education includes "how to pet animals".
purplefood wrote:Parents should do some teaching before kids get into schools...
They should also interact with their schooling in some way even if it's just homework and projects...
Schools take a lot of crap unfairly IMO...
Agreed, we do that, and my son reads at a 3rd grade lvl, Math at a 2nd grade lvl and he just finished 1st grade. His hand writting sucks though, so he should be a shoe in for a doctor But I will say, schools/teachers will never be 100% perfect and so whatever you think they are falling behind on, its up to the parent to build that part up. Again, my sons writing and some spelling we work on weekly at least, because his teacher NEVER corrected the children when they misspelled rock or something, and that bugged me. But again, parents doing their jobs
Nicorex wrote:I am all for some progresive education. Get the kids intrested, have them actually participate. Get their little grubby hands dirty with it. We need to do away with "Everybody is a winner for participating " trophys and really teach the kids.
Here is an article about some of the worst types of "Progresive Schools".
http://www.buzzfeed.com/hillaryreinsberg/10-bizarre-schools-from-around-the-country Why as a parent would you do this to your child? Some of these schools dont use Books!
I spend a decent amount of time at my kids school as a volunteer and PTO member, and here is what I have observed.
1. There are a lot of kids to a handful of teachers, as a result everything is very regimented. Line up here, sit there, no talking, etc.
2. Due to the kid:teacher ratio; if your kid doesn't learn through the traditional methods, the teachers will be unable to teach them in the style that best suits them.
3. Teachers and administrators are really feeling the pressure of standardized tests and the funding it entails. Therefore, the classroom activities are very regimented to specific subject areas and discussions.
4. There is a large emphasis on homework. All grades have homework every night, K-12.
5. ESL kids are given the same testing and homework as native speakers. This leads to complications as parents can not help the child (No English), Teachers can not help the child (No teachers that speak their native language) and the kid has to sink or swim on their own.
6. The school is trying really, really hard to get community and parent support. Typically, of the entire student body, I see the same 12 parents doing all the community/parental support. Educating kids is not really valued in our community, despite the rhetoric.
7. The schools are trying to cut costs everyway they can, and asking for parents/volunteers to do things that really should be a teacher's job. Things like... teaching one-on-one and tutoring kids in trouble.
8. The school struggles with kids outside of the "normal" range. They either do not challenge them enough, or have no support network for those in need.
Those are just anecdotal observations, and in no way consistute evidence on a larger scale. I see effective education as a stool with three legs; Schools, Parents, and Kids. If one of those three legs is not standing; then the entire thing falls apart.
Easy E wrote:I spend a decent amount of time at my kids school as a volunteer and PTO member, and here is what I have observed.
1. There are a lot of kids to a handful of teachers, as a result everything is very regimented. Line up here, sit there, no talking, etc.
2. Due to the kid:teacher ratio; if your kid doesn't learn through the traditional methods, the teachers will be unable to teach them in the style that best suits them.
3. Teachers and administrators are really feeling the pressure of standardized tests and the funding it entails. Therefore, the classroom activities are very regimented to specific subject areas and discussions.
4. There is a large emphasis on homework. All grades have homework every night, K-12.
5. ESL kids are given the same testing and homework as native speakers. This leads to complications as parents can not help the child (No English), Teachers can not help the child (No teachers that speak their native language) and the kid has to sink or swim on their own.
6. The school is trying really, really hard to get community and parent support. Typically, of the entire student body, I see the same 12 parents doing all the community/parental support. Educating kids is not really valued in our community, despite the rhetoric.
7. The schools are trying to cut costs everyway they can, and asking for parents/volunteers to do things that really should be a teacher's job. Things like... teaching one-on-one and tutoring kids in trouble.
8. The school struggles with kids outside of the "normal" range. They either do not challenge them enough, or have no support network for those in need.
Those are just anecdotal observations, and in no way consistute evidence on a larger scale. I see effective education as a stool with three legs; Schools, Parents, and Kids. If one of those three legs is not standing; then the entire thing falls apart.
I would say that all the above apply for my home school district, except there a no parent volunteers (that I've seen anyway), little to no homework, and about 1/5 of most class populations are kids whom do not speak English as their first language.
The reason that no homework is given is that the kids will generally not do it, and the parents will not make them do it.
Thus the kids start to fail, and then the parents come in and get mad, and shout and scream and demand a better grade for their child, and blame the teachers.
So the teachers have by and large given up on handing out homework, it’s just not worth it to them.
Hell, my 10th grade math teacher was let go because so many parents complained about the ammount of homework he gave their kids. He was a good math teacher too, he just wasn't tenured so they fired him and got someone else.
George Spiggott wrote:Just keep your kids at home and send them here for their education http://www.davidicke.com/
State schools just turn your kids into sheeple!
I'm pretty sure you're just joking around George, so it's okay, but my general policy is to disregard the education-related opinions of anyone who uses the term "sheeple."
Except for maybe one or two exceptions, most of the schools in the article don't look bad. Some of them look like they'd be great if you want to get good at something specific (like being a firefighter or winter athlete). The sad thing is, there are probably some pretty zany, questionable schools out there that would have made for a better article overall.
I was reading a Newsweek article about the top High Schools in the US. I think it was the May issue.
I had a tough time believing it was the best, when they school is a private boarding school with admission based solely on academic performance. Even an idiot like me could make a successful school with that criteria.
Hordini wrote:I'm pretty sure you're just joking around George, so it's okay, but my general policy is to disregard the education-related opinions of anyone who uses the term "sheeple."
Hordini wrote:I'm pretty sure you're just joking around George, so it's okay, but my general policy is to disregard the education-related opinions of anyone who uses the term "sheeple."
hotsauceman1 wrote:What about parents that have no business teaching kids? OR ones that teach them something that is the polar opposite of what should be tought?
Their kids are going to struggle, even if they're lucky enough to have good teachers, other family members, or friends to help them along.
I'm guessing those aren't the kind of parents that are able to send their kids to schools like the ones in the article though.
My sister's school has a strange rule that you can only take library books designated for your grade. I understand there's only so many books, but that seems counter productive. Luckily, I keep all my books from when I was a kid, so she's just reading those instead.
The School of the Future actually doesn't seem all that weird except in that its sponsored by Microsoft. The FDNY school isn't bad either, there are plenty of highly focused high schools.
Alexzandvar wrote:
Combine this with a good 70% of all Christian evangelicals that home school there kids. You can see were the education is going.
There's only like 1.5-2 million homeschooled children in the US. Wheaton College claims (granted they have an interest in overestimating) there are 90-100 million evangelicals in the US.
Perhaps you meant that ~70% of homeschooled children are from Evangelical backgrounds?
Anyone listen to the "Mens room" radio station? They had a discussion about UK kids. Granted they didn't say the age grp they asked the questions but......40% of UK kids do not know where bacon comes from and like 20% did not know where milk came from...was on this past week...Thursday I believe...these are the guys have a caller guess what race a certain individual is in a law enforcement incident....Black White Mexi or Jew is the name of the contest (KISW is the name of the station)
KISW? I used to listen to them a bit when I lived in Seattle twenty years ago. Sounds like they've gone downhill.
"40% of UK kids" sounds like trolling. Maybe the study was talking to preschoolers? And the DJs made it vague in the interest of promoting discussion/argument? As they usually do.
Alexzandvar wrote:
Combine this with a good 70% of all Christian evangelicals that home school there kids. You can see were the education is going.
There's only like 1.5-2 million homeschooled children in the US. Wheaton College claims (granted they have an interest in overestimating) there are 90-100 million evangelicals in the US.
Perhaps you meant that ~70% of homeschooled children are from Evangelical backgrounds?
Many of those schools that they claim do not use books probably swapped over to tablets or laptops. I know a few grade schools in my county are preparing to switch over to PDF and paper free teaching in the next few years.
I am homeschooling my boy. I don't want him learning about evolution, fabricated American history, black history month, and crap like that. I also don't want him being forced to say the pledge of allegiance under god. I've never used algebra after public school...Also I refuse to have him vaccinated so public school is a no go anyway.
kraken88 wrote:I am homeschooling my boy. I don't want him learning about evolution, fabricated American history, black history month, and crap like that. I also don't want him being forced to say the pledge of allegiance under god. I've never used algebra after public school...Also I refuse to have him vaccinated so public school is a no go anyway.
Do you disagree with evolution, american history (As it's taught, I'm not gonna say whether it's fabricated or not.), black history month and vaccinations? If so, why?
Out of curiosity, why dont you want him to learn about evolution?
Also, I'm friends with a homeschooled kid (he was home schooled for grade k-7 and then is in a private school high school) and hes completely fine, and isnt falling behind. However, he lacks some people skills that you learn in your younger years playing with kids at school. E.g. boundaries, whats right and whats wrong (for example flicking stuff out of your braces at people is wrong) etc.
kraken88 wrote:I am homeschooling my boy. I don't want him learning about evolution, fabricated American history, black history month, and crap like that. I also don't want him being forced to say the pledge of allegiance under god. I've never used algebra after public school...Also I refuse to have him vaccinated so public school is a no go anyway.
Do you disagree with evolution, american history (As it's taught, I'm not gonna say whether it's fabricated or not.), black history month and vaccinations?
If so, why?
I do not believe in evolution at the level that is taught in public schools. I think there is to much magik in this world for it all to be an accidental mutation. I don't believe in god but I do believe in a creator(s).
I don't want him to believe the lies they teach in school about our history. I would rather teach him something more truthful. you know the old saying, the winners of wars write the history books.
Although I want him to learn about other culture's history, I will focus more on his heritage and history (Norse, Irish)
And vaccinations are not healthy. Some of the ingredients are dead human fetal tissue and other poisons. I personally know 3 families whose children have gotten deathly ill from them. Go to the CDC website for more info on the ingredients.
As far as socialization. There are many homeschooling programs that get the families together that home school so the kids can meet and the parents can get ideas from one another. I don't want him getting any of the public school system's "social skills" such as drugs, violence, and sex. I'm not worried about him being a well adjusted kid, if he is anything like he is now when he grows up he will be awesome
Easy E wrote:I had a tough time believing it was the best, when they school is a private boarding school with admission based solely on academic performance. Even an idiot like me could make a successful school with that criteria.
We have this nonsense over here in Western Australia, where they rank schools, private and public, from best to worst. But they're only ranked by the final grades of the kids - so schools in better socio-economic areas are mostly fed with kids from stable families, where the parents strongly support education... so of course those schools are going to do better. And of course the private schools, who take in a lot of very high performing kids on scholarships and otherwise fill out their roster with kids from wealthy families who place a high value on education dominate the results. The studies don't do make any effort to predict what schools might be doing best considering the general quality of kids they get through the doors.
Parents predictably lap these studies up and spend God knows what kind of money shipping their kids off to private schools that do well in the tests, or buying into the feeding area for the highest ranked public schools, never considering that a kid with parents who are that invested in their education will probably do pretty well no matter what.
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Easy E wrote:Those are just anecdotal observations, and in no way consistute evidence on a larger scale. I see effective education as a stool with three legs; Schools, Parents, and Kids. If one of those three legs is not standing; then the entire thing falls apart.
It's actually generally recognised that the US does very well with slow developers and high achieving kids, while the kids in the middle generally miss out on resources relatively (the US spends about as much per capita as other countries, and when you spend more on the best and worst kids, the middle misses out somewhat).
I'm not saying your experience is wrong, or that it doesn't reflect experiences in general across the US, just that whatever the difficulties US kids outside of the norm might have they're actually worse elsewhere around the world. Basically, having an education system that can account for the level of diversity you see in children and do alright by all of them is just a really hard thing to achieve.
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kraken88 wrote:Not trolling, just my unpopular opinion
It's unpopular for some really good reasons. And seriously, get your kid vaccinated, no child deserves to suffer through preventable diseases because of the contrarian tendencies of the parent.
kraken88 wrote:I am homeschooling my boy. I don't want him learning about evolution, fabricated American history, black history month, and crap like that. I also don't want him being forced to say the pledge of allegiance under god. I've never used algebra after public school...Also I refuse to have him vaccinated so public school is a no go anyway.
Do you disagree with evolution, american history (As it's taught, I'm not gonna say whether it's fabricated or not.), black history month and vaccinations?
If so, why?
I do not believe in evolution at the level that is taught in public schools. I think there is to much magik in this world for it all to be an accidental mutation. I don't believe in god but I do believe in a creator(s).
I don't want him to believe the lies they teach in school about our history. I would rather teach him something more truthful. you know the old saying, the winners of wars write the history books.
Although I want him to learn about other culture's history, I will focus more on his heritage and history (Norse, Irish)
And vaccinations are not healthy. Some of the ingredients are dead human fetal tissue and other poisons. I personally know 3 families whose children have gotten deathly ill from them. Go to the CDC website for more info on the ingredients.
As far as socialization. There are many homeschooling programs that get the families together that home school so the kids can meet and the parents can get ideas from one another. I don't want him getting any of the public school system's "social skills" such as drugs, violence, and sex. I'm not worried about him being a well adjusted kid, if he is anything like he is now when he grows up he will be awesome
I pity your child(ren). Seriously.
Assuming that you aren't simply a troll (I hope you are).
kraken88 wrote:I do not believe in evolution at the level that is taught in public schools. I think there is to much magik in this world for it all to be an accidental mutation. I don't believe in god but I do believe in a creator(s).
The problem here is that you don't understand evolution. Mutation is accidental, but the process which determines which mutations spread through a gene pool is anything but.
You are welcome to believe in whatever creator(s) you like, but that has nothing to do with the place of evolution as part of our scientific understanding of life.
I don't want him to believe the lies they teach in school about our history. I would rather teach him something more truthful. you know the old saying, the winners of wars write the history books.
The problem here is that you don't understand history. The field has advanced so far beyond the popular myths developed in the wake of events, we are now aware of how many events were mischaracterised because of historical study. Unfortunately many of these events are not passed properly down to our kids... but odds are there's at least as many areas where your own personal bias is at least as bad as the school's.
By getting a school's opinion and your own, your child can learn to read into the issue on his own, and form his own conclusion. If he just gets your opinion, he'll almost certainly end up parroting that, whether right or wrong.
Although I want him to learn about other culture's history, I will focus more on his heritage and history (Norse, Irish)
It seems very, very limiting to teach someone only of the experience of their peers. I mean, how do you really understand your place in the world if you know nothing of how other people live? Still, in the scheme of things this seems
And vaccinations are not healthy.
There are minor risks with vaccinations, but they are grossly outweighed by the benefits. This is something with thousands of scientific studies behind it, and no shortage of basic, really obvious results right in front of our eyes. I mean just read about life before vaccinations were common, read about the rate of infant mortality. Read about polio.
Learn those things and then please don't risk the health of your child because you found it fun to play contrarian.
As far as socialization. There are many homeschooling programs that get the families together that home school so the kids can meet and the parents can get ideas from one another. I don't want him getting any of the public school system's "social skills" such as drugs, violence, and sex. I'm not worried about him being a well adjusted kid, if he is anything like he is now when he grows up he will be awesome
Yeah, there's plenty of other ways to develop social skills, I agree with you there. And that a dedicated, hard working and well informed parents can make up for what would be taught in school. It's hard, but it's do-able. But you really, really need to learn a hell of a lot of things before you can reach that level. I mean seriously, you don't get to reject evolution when you do not understand it at the most basic level, and it is not acceptable to pass that kind of casual ignorance onto your child.
kraken88 wrote:I do not believe in evolution at the level that is taught in public schools. I think there is to much magik in this world for it all to be an accidental mutation. I don't believe in god but I do believe in a creator(s).
The problem here is that you don't understand evolution. Mutation is accidental, but the process which determines which mutations spread through a gene pool is anything but.
You are welcome to believe in whatever creator(s) you like, but that has nothing to do with the place of evolution as part of our scientific understanding of life.
I don't want him to believe the lies they teach in school about our history. I would rather teach him something more truthful. you know the old saying, the winners of wars write the history books.
The problem here is that you don't understand history. The field has advanced so far beyond the popular myths developed in the wake of events, we are now aware of how many events were mischaracterised because of historical study. Unfortunately many of these events are not passed properly down to our kids... but odds are there's at least as many areas where your own personal bias is at least as bad as the school's.
By getting a school's opinion and your own, your child can learn to read into the issue on his own, and form his own conclusion. If he just gets your opinion, he'll almost certainly end up parroting that, whether right or wrong.
Although I want him to learn about other culture's history, I will focus more on his heritage and history (Norse, Irish)
It seems very, very limiting to teach someone only of the experience of their peers. I mean, how do you really understand your place in the world if you know nothing of how other people live? Still, in the scheme of things this seems
And vaccinations are not healthy.
There are minor risks with vaccinations, but they are grossly outweighed by the benefits. This is something with thousands of scientific studies behind it, and no shortage of basic, really obvious results right in front of our eyes. I mean just read about life before vaccinations were common, read about the rate of infant mortality. Read about polio.
Learn those things and then please don't risk the health of your child because you found it fun to play contrarian.
As far as socialization. There are many homeschooling programs that get the families together that home school so the kids can meet and the parents can get ideas from one another. I don't want him getting any of the public school system's "social skills" such as drugs, violence, and sex. I'm not worried about him being a well adjusted kid, if he is anything like he is now when he grows up he will be awesome
Yeah, there's plenty of other ways to develop social skills, I agree with you there. And that a dedicated, hard working and well informed parents can make up for what would be taught in school. It's hard, but it's do-able. But you really, really need to learn a hell of a lot of things before you can reach that level. I mean seriously, you don't get to reject evolution when you do not understand it at the most basic level, and it is not acceptable to pass that kind of casual ignorance onto your child.
Trust me death from a vaccine is not a minor risk. You need to research vaccines for yourself before you pass judgment. Vaccines are deadly, its a fact. I didn't just Google this stuff, I have many friends and family in the medical field. Do me a favor and look up some statistics on how many doctors vaccinate their own kids. I will be waiting for your reply.
How can you say I don't understand evolution or history? #1 you don't know me or my educational background. 2# Evolution is not a proven science. It is a theory. Just because schools teach it, doesn't make it right. #3 I am well on my way in receiving my Education degree, so I'm sure Ill be fine teaching my son.
My life is not a game. I am not playing "contrarian". The health of my child comes before ANYTHING in my life.
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SilverMK2 wrote:I am hoping troll. Otherwise I suspect the homeschool uniform will be a tinfoil hat...
I said its not proven. How can you prove that we were apes once and some mutation made us self aware and intelligent?
Just because we are all made of the same substances doesn't mean we were all related.
Like I said, these are my opinions, but evolution is still a theory, that is a fact.
If you think vaccinations are bad, you're a fool. The anti-vaccine crowd has about as much credibility to me as young-earthers and those who believe the moon landing was faked.
Please, Jesus, let the government have the sense to make vaccination mandatory and save these morons from themselves.
kraken88 wrote:I said its not proven. How can you prove that we were apes once and some mutation made us self aware and intelligent?
Just because we are all made of the same substances doesn't mean we were all related.
Like I said, these are my opinions, but evolution is still a theory, that is a fact.
You should recheck what theory in science actually means, though.
the·o·ry /ˈθiəri, ˈθɪəri/ Show Spelled[thee-uh-ree, theer-ee]
noun, plural the·o·ries.
1. a coherent group of tested general propositions, commonly regarded as correct, that can be used as principles of explanation and prediction for a class of phenomena: Einstein's theory of relativity. Synonyms: principle, law, doctrine.
Besides, the theory of evolution actually doesn´t suggest that we were apes once, but rather that we share a common ancestor, some sort of proto-ape-but-not-quite-an-ape-actually for the lack of a better word, from which we evolved away, but apes did as well.
In other news: Even the vatican accepts evolution and does not see any conflict between christian faith and evolution, so that might be something to consider for anyone who has religious doubts about it. Then again, it does not really affect people if those people aren´t catholics. But anyway, faith and evolution don´t have to be opposites.
kraken88 wrote:I am homeschooling my boy. I don't want him learning about evolution, fabricated American history, black history month, and crap like that. I also don't want him being forced to say the pledge of allegiance under god. I've never used algebra after public school...Also I refuse to have him vaccinated so public school is a no go anyway.
Do you disagree with evolution, american history (As it's taught, I'm not gonna say whether it's fabricated or not.), black history month and vaccinations?
If so, why?
I do not believe in evolution at the level that is taught in public schools. I think there is to much magik in this world for it all to be an accidental mutation. I don't believe in god but I do believe in a creator(s).
I don't want him to believe the lies they teach in school about our history. I would rather teach him something more truthful. you know the old saying, the winners of wars write the history books.
Although I want him to learn about other culture's history, I will focus more on his heritage and history (Norse, Irish)
And vaccinations are not healthy. Some of the ingredients are dead human fetal tissue and other poisons. I personally know 3 families whose children have gotten deathly ill from them. Go to the CDC website for more info on the ingredients.
As far as socialization. There are many homeschooling programs that get the families together that home school so the kids can meet and the parents can get ideas from one another. I don't want him getting any of the public school system's "social skills" such as drugs, violence, and sex. I'm not worried about him being a well adjusted kid, if he is anything like he is now when he grows up he will be awesome
Well at least this way their genes are less likely to be carried on if all their kids die of easily preventable diseases
Oh, wait, evolution is only a 'theory'... Better tie myself to the ground next time I go outside just in case gravity stops working...it is only a 'theory' too.
Please, for the love of whatever you believe in, send your kids to school, or at least learn the difference between a scientific theory, and common usage 'theory'. And while you are at it, perhaps learn the difference between real scientific theories and rubbish like the stuff suggesting any significant unhealthy side effects of the majority of injections... You know the guy who suggested a link between the MMR and autism was fully retracted from the public record and kicked off of the medical record for fraud, misconduct and abuse of developmentally challanged children? m
SilverMK2 wrote:Well at least this way their genes are less likely to be carried on if all their kids die of easily preventable diseases
Oh, wait, evolution is only a 'theory'... Better tie myself to the ground next time I go outside just in case gravity stops working...it is only a 'theory' too.
Please, for the love of whatever you believe in, send your kids to school, or at least learn the difference between a scientific theory, and common usage 'theory'. And while you are at it, perhaps learn the difference between real scientific theories and rubbish like the stuff suggesting any significant unhealthy side effects of the majority of injections... You know the guy who suggested a link between the MMR and autism was fully retracted from the public record and kicked off of the medical record for fraud, misconduct and abuse of developmentally challanged children? m
Trust me, trying to reason with a person like that is like trying to reason with an brick wall.
kraken88 wrote:Trust me death from a vaccine is not a minor risk. You need to research vaccines for yourself before you pass judgment.
I'm not going to trust you, I'm going to trust the peer reviewed scientific studies into the risks and benefits of vaccinations. Which is exactly what you and anyone else with children should do.
And as for all the stuff you read on the internet... do you understand the difference between a peer reviewed medical journal like the Lancet or the New England Journal of Medicine... and some guy with an internet page? Do you understand that qualifications and research matter more than housewife gossip about 'doctors don't vaccinate their children'.
How can you say I don't understand evolution or history? #1 you don't know me or my educational background. 2# Evolution is not a proven science. It is a theory. Just because schools teach it, doesn't make it right. #3 I am well on my way in receiving my Education degree, so I'm sure Ill be fine teaching my son.
I don't have any clue what educational background you might hold (I know people with Masters degrees with only the vaguest understanding of anything outside their field and not that great an understanding of their own field), but I can have an extremely good guess at your understanding of what science is.
I can tell this because you have no idea how science works, or what a theory is. There is no such thing as 'proven science'. It doesn't exist. It's just nonsense made up by people who don't understand and don't work in science, to convince themselves and others that an existing scientific model can be ignored. There is simply the scientific model that best fits the present data. That's all there is.
And when that model is formed, it is tested and examined, changed to include the new data, and adapted again and again. And when that model starts to repeatedly be confirmed by new data and experiments, it gets called a theory. As in the theory of gravity, or the theory of evolution. This is a distinct term from the way you mistakenly thought the word was used, as per its use outside of science as a piece of speculation.
So yeah, those two big errors are why I know your understanding of science is pretty poor. The good news is that in reading what I just wrote and accepting it, your understanding of science just improved. Now equipped with the knowledge that over 100 years of study that evolution is the best fit we have for the evidence at hand, and that it has been able to predict many discoveries subsequently made, you can go out and start learning more about it.
My life is not a game. I am not playing "contrarian". The health of my child comes before ANYTHING in my life.
Then get an appreciation of science, and get your child vaccinated. Whatever order you want to do it in would be fine.
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n0t_u wrote:It's a theory, that's why it is called the theory of evolution. It's still science, even if it isn't proven yet.
No, it's called the theory of evolution because in science a theory is a substantiated explanation, that has been repeatedly verified through new data and experimentation. To call something in science a theory is to place it among the most reliable, comprehensive form of scientific knowledge.
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kraken88 wrote:Google " Ian's story" to see what a vaccine is capable of. Im not willing to risk that for my son. Sory to the op. Im done.
Anecdotes are not science. You're fething about with the health of your child here. Sorry to be blunt but you need to understand this so your kid can get the modern medicine he deserves.
kraken88 wrote:How can you say I don't understand evolution or history? #1 you don't know me or my educational background. 2# Evolution is not a proven science. It is a theory. Just because schools teach it, doesn't make it right. #3 I am well on my way in receiving my Education degree, so I'm sure Ill be fine teaching my son.
There's not a reputable medical body in the world which does not advocate vaccination of children to safeguard them against preventable diseases. There's also not a reputable scientific body in the world which does not accept evolution by natural selection as scientific fact; your trite and misleading phrase "it's just a theory" only underlines your scientific ignorance.
On-topic: Schools four, five and six on the list seem to be no more than amusingly quirky; seven is an average sports academy; the rest are embarrassments.
SilverMK2 wrote:I am hoping troll. Otherwise I suspect the homeschool uniform will be a tinfoil hat...
Troll. If he were antivaccination he'd be yammering that it causes autism.
Not forgetting mercury poisoning.
Oh that too. Excellent.
EDIT:
I've know two families that home schooled.
1. The mom was an antivaccination wack job, ok mostly just a wack job. I think she had separation issues actually.
2. The boy has Assberger's (I think thats what it was called). Nice kid but picked on a lot, and needed help getting through. He's doing well now and is working towards a soccer scholarship to college.
I know another family that almost pulled their kid for a similar reason to #2 (different condition) but he hung in there and barely made it through, but he did make it.
kraken88 wrote:Trust me death from a vaccine is not a minor risk. You need to research vaccines for yourself before you pass judgment. Vaccines are deadly, its a fact. I didn't just Google this stuff, I have many friends and family in the medical field. Do me a favor and look up some statistics on how many doctors vaccinate their own kids. I will be waiting for your reply.
As somebody who works in the "medical field" I call bullgak on this. They may have told you that you do not need to run out and get the Flu Vaccine every year or something, but I can guarantee that no medical professional in their right mind has told you not to have your kid get the Polio or Hep Vaccines.
kraken88 wrote:Trust me death from a vaccine is not a minor risk. You need to research vaccines for yourself before you pass judgment. Vaccines are deadly, its a fact. I didn't just Google this stuff, I have many friends and family in the medical field. Do me a favor and look up some statistics on how many doctors vaccinate their own kids. I will be waiting for your reply.
My mum works in medicine, she practically drags us to get vaccinated (when needed, not stuff like flu shots that only old/young people need) and if we didn't go she'd jab us in our sleep.
personally, I think THIS and THIS should be all you need to read to get yourself jabbed quite quickly
kraken88 wrote:
How can you say I don't understand evolution or history? #1 you don't know me or my educational background. 2# Evolution is not a proven science. It is a theory. Just because schools teach it, doesn't make it right. #3 I am well on my way in receiving my Education degree, so I'm sure Ill be fine teaching my son.
Just because you have and education degree doesn't make you a good teacher, I had plenty of dire teachers at school who couldn't teach or control a class, granted you'll be dealing with your son, but that brings it's own problems.
Not to egg this on but Kraken..your prior Air Force and looking into going active duty army. One vaccination we all get going overseas is the Anthrax seris...and the horror of the small pox jab (Never think a shot can produce a huge A$$ scab). You know and I know your going through that round again when you slap the uniform back on.
Also you know becuase I KNOW that every month is a heritage month. Not only is it Black History month but also Native American, asian american and a whole slew of others. If the Air Force EO program wasn't doing this then their WRONG.
I said its not proven. How can you prove that we were apes once and some mutation made us self aware and intelligent?
Just because we are all made of the same substances doesn't mean we were all related.
Like I said, these are my opinions, but evolution is still a theory, that is a fact.
You don't even understand what "Theory" means in a scientific sense, clearly. This claim that it's still "Only a Theory" shows you don't even understand what science is or how it works on even the most elementary level. Hell the first result on google explains just why this stance is silly: http://chemistry.about.com/od/chemistry101/a/lawtheory.htm
EDIT: Someone linked a wikipedia page from a above that actually makes the point even clearer.
That aside, going over the preponderance of evidence that demonstrates the clear existence of the complex set of processes that results in the change of life over time that is explained in terms of evolution is faaaaaaaaar, far, far beyond the scope of a thread like this or even a single question. They way you're talking about it shows you don't even have the most basic grasp of even the most elementary principles of what makes evolution true. Evolution is proven, and is has been for a while a now. The evidence is not disputable. Heck you don't even need an in-depth look at the facts to see how not-an-issue the truth of evolution is, you can get all the important stuff out of series of 12 minute youtube videos.
Easy E wrote:Those are just anecdotal observations, and in no way consistute evidence on a larger scale. I see effective education as a stool with three legs; Schools, Parents, and Kids. If one of those three legs is not standing; then the entire thing falls apart.
It's actually generally recognised that the US does very well with slow developers and high achieving kids, while the kids in the middle generally miss out on resources relatively (the US spends about as much per capita as other countries, and when you spend more on the best and worst kids, the middle misses out somewhat).
I'm not saying your experience is wrong, or that it doesn't reflect experiences in general across the US, just that whatever the difficulties US kids outside of the norm might have they're actually worse elsewhere around the world. Basically, having an education system that can account for the level of diversity you see in children and do alright by all of them is just a really hard thing to achieve.
No argument from me there. I have no doubt making an "All-things, to All-People" system would be pretty hard.
I keep hearing about moving ot a post-industrial education system, but what does that even mean? Anybody got any ideas?
I have a feeling post-industrial education system has something to do with a service industry rather than a manufacturing industry. Basically focusing more on things that set you up for jobs not related to manfactoring jobs. Economics or financial sector jobs being a prime example... I believe in that context the UK has a post-industry economy
kraken88 wrote:I'm not worried about him being a well adjusted kid, if he is anything like he is now when he grows up he will be awesome
If your kid is like he is now as an adult, then he will be a terrible person. All adults would be terrible people if they behaved as they did as children.
kraken88 wrote:Google " Ian's story" to see what a vaccine is capable of. Im not willing to risk that for my son. Sory to the op. Im done.
You mean the "Ian's Story" where the "Ian" in question had Infantile Refsum disease?
Dont many places require vaccinations to go to? Like parks and stuff?
And Vaccinations are dangerous? Sense when? Sense when is getting rid of diseases considered a bad thing?
Is this just a case of panic? Because that what the anti-vaccinations seem to me.
hotsauceman1 wrote:Dont many places require vaccinations to go to? Like parks and stuff?
And Vaccinations are dangerous? Sense when? Sense when is getting rid of diseases considered a bad thing?
Is this just a case of panic? Because that what the anti-vaccinations seem to me.
There is a very small chance of a reaction to vaccines, some of the vaccines actually caused an infection, depending on type-by I think thats gottena lot better. I think most times it does that is actually related to the flu vaccine, but I'm no expert.
hotsauceman1 wrote:Dont many places require vaccinations to go to? Like parks and stuff?
And Vaccinations are dangerous? Sense when? Sense when is getting rid of diseases considered a bad thing?
Is this just a case of panic? Because that what the anti-vaccinations seem to me.
There is a very small chance of a reaction to vaccines, some of the vaccines actually caused an infection, depending on type-by I think thats gottena lot better. I think most times it does that is actually related to the flu vaccine, but I'm no expert.
None of them actually cause an infection anymore, as far as I'm aware. Vaccines either use a dead organism, an organism that is still alive but which can no longer reproduce/do anything or bits of an organism that your immune system can easily recognise. Vaccines often cause sypmtoms as your body basically thinks that it has an infection but they don't last long and its basically a nessicary side effect due to how the whole process works. A reaction is quite common, I get them a lot, but its nothing more than a mild fever that lasts a day or so. Serious reactions are rare and usually involve an allergic response to eggs (as a lot of viral vaccines are made in eggs).
Couldn't you oppose vaccination but still send your kid to school??? I mean, I'm thinking about homeschooling my kids (if I ever get any), but isn't it silly to keep them at home because of something that happens once every 6 months? On top of things, even if you disagree with the theory of evolution as a representation of the development of species, why would you want you kids to be badly informed about it? Knowing about silly theories can help you a lot, especially if you want your kid to become proficient with science...
I would never even consider home schooling my children. I will suppliment and support their education but I could never give them the breadth of learning that they will recieve in school.
Kovnik Obama wrote:Couldn't you oppose vaccination but still send your kid to school?
Most schools (public or private) require them, so unless you oppose them but get them anyway, you couldn't send the child to school.
Exactly. Parents that "oppose vaccination" are not only putting their own children at major risks, they turn them into ticking time bombs that are just waiting to become vectors that should be nowhere near the general population.
kraken88 wrote:I said its not proven. How can you prove that we were apes once and some mutation made us self aware and intelligent?
Just because we are all made of the same substances doesn't mean we were all related.
Like I said, these are my opinions, but evolution is still a theory, that is a fact.
You should recheck what theory in science actually means, though.
the·o·ry /ˈθiəri, ˈθɪəri/ Show Spelled[thee-uh-ree, theer-ee]
noun, plural the·o·ries.
1. a coherent group of tested general propositions, commonly regarded as correct, that can be used as principles of explanation and prediction for a class of phenomena: Einstein's theory of relativity. Synonyms: principle, law, doctrine.
Besides, the theory of evolution actually doesn´t suggest that we were apes once, but rather that we share a common ancestor, some sort of proto-ape-but-not-quite-an-ape-actually for the lack of a better word, from which we evolved away, but apes did as well.
In other news: Even the vatican accepts evolution and does not see any conflict between christian faith and evolution, so that might be something to consider for anyone who has religious doubts about it. Then again, it does not really affect people if those people aren´t catholics. But anyway, faith and evolution don´t have to be opposites.
This is no way reflects my position on the subject matter.
If you reread your definition, "...a coherent group of tested general propositions, commonly regarded as correct..." means that a theory is a group of related tests which points to the theory being accepted as correct. This does not mean is is truth. A very good example of this is general realitivity and quantum mechanics. While general realitivity is accepted to be true, it breaks down at the quantum level, thus is not true in all instances of the theory.
Just saying...
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hotsauceman1 wrote:Dont many places require vaccinations to go to? Like parks and stuff?
And Vaccinations are dangerous? Sense when? Sense when is getting rid of diseases considered a bad thing?
Is this just a case of panic? Because that what the anti-vaccinations seem to me.
This is not true. When I was younger, I belonged to a Christian group who did not believe in vaccinations and thus have been waivered from every vaccination given while at school. I never understood why until recently why I never took them.
Kovnik Obama wrote:Couldn't you oppose vaccination but still send your kid to school?
Most schools (public or private) require them, so unless you oppose them but get them anyway, you couldn't send the child to school.
Exactly. Parents that "oppose vaccination" are not only putting their own children at major risks, they turn them into ticking time bombs that are just waiting to become vectors that should be nowhere near the general population.
Ah, oki, well, it makes sense. Anyhow, don't we have at least a century of vaccinations to give us a history of the bad side effects? Even with medical history being private, I'm sure that there would be some way of tracking pretty accuratly the problematic cases?
Vaccinations are like any other medicine, sometimes they can have negative side affects, though these cases are the exceptions and not the rule. Maybe there's such a thing as receiving too many at once. Some diseases are too dangerous not to be vaccinated, but you don't need to be vaccinated against every disease out there.
Crazy people who need to shelter their children from those 'dangerous ideas' like evolution and vaccination programmes are the main reason to question the wisdom of allowing home education at all. It's scary the 'education' some children receive.
Howard A Treesong wrote:Crazy people who need to shelter their children from those 'dangerous ideas' like evolution and vaccination programmes are the main reason to question the wisdom of allowing home education at all. It's scary the 'education' some children receive.
Well, if they have crazy parents, they're likely already fethed up before they even hit the classrooms, so on the positive side, that's a few less burned-out teachers...
Zyllos wrote: A very good example of this is general realitivity and quantum mechanics. While general realitivity is accepted to be true, it breaks down at the quantum level, thus is not true in all instances of the theory.
General relativity doesn't work at a quantum level, neither does causality, so are Newton's laws of motion untrue then? If Relativity was untrue then we got really lucky with calculating the time difference on GPS satellites. Seriously, people should really open their eyes a bit and maybe they might realise that the incredibly complex mathematics that underpin these "theories" don't allow much in the way of error.
kraken88 wrote:Trust me death from a vaccine is not a minor risk. You need to research vaccines for yourself before you pass judgment. Vaccines are deadly, its a fact. I didn't just Google this stuff, I have many friends and family in the medical field. Do me a favor and look up some statistics on how many doctors vaccinate their own kids. I will be waiting for your reply.
Interesting. So... where are all the millions of dead kids from vaccines these past hundred years? I know since vaccines were mandated, hundreds of millions of kids have been vaccinated in America alone. This has saved millions of kids from preventable and potentially lethal childhood diseases like polio. So... how man dead kids from vaccines? A dozen? A hundred? Please tell me, I find myself intensely curious.
Evolution is not a proven science. It is a theory.
So is gravity. Want to jump out a 20th story window on the off-chance the theory is wrong?
EVERY bit of evidence we've found indicates that life started simple and evolved into more complex forms. There is NO evidence of ANY other mechanism for the development of life.
Besides... I take a bit of extra refuge knowing the creator was omnipotent and onmiscent enough to set the whole universe in motion in an instant, so that it would inevitiably create life intelligent enough to figure out how it was done. Now THAT'S some foresight and power! Just BANG and off it goes!
As opposed to "Okay, here's the light, gotta keep it separate from the dark. Now where's that earth and water at, I hope it didn't get mixed up...."
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kraken88 wrote:I said its not proven. How can you prove that we were apes once...
kraken88 wrote:Trust me death from a vaccine is not a minor risk. You need to research vaccines for yourself before you pass judgment. Vaccines are deadly, its a fact. I didn't just Google this stuff, I have many friends and family in the medical field. Do me a favor and look up some statistics on how many doctors vaccinate their own kids. I will be waiting for your reply.
Wait, what?
I'm serious, what?
Even if it contains pathogens, they have been weakened to the point where you will only get mild symptoms of the actual illness, and in return your immune system has optimized to combat the disease if it should strike again. Deathly ill you say? Children are prone to exaggeration. If you have friends in the medical profession, what field? If they are people such as busboys or nurses, they won't be specifically trained and do not have a full comprehension of this. An immunologist, however, is fully aware of the risks involved with it. It has been refined from the days of a small pinprick topped with pus to a fully developed vaccine.
To quote you, you need to research vaccines before you pass judgement.
kraken88 wrote:Google " Ian's story" to see what a vaccine is capable of. Im not willing to risk that for my son. Sory to the op. Im done.
I assume you're talking about the Hep-B shot and not the kid from India or the teen with testitcular cancer.
I have a surprise for you. I've had that same shot. So has every other person who's worked in a restaurant in St. Louis in the past 20 years. And look at that, we're not dropping like flies.
ONE statistical outlier does not invalidate MILLIONS of proven results.
It's like expecting a Tau Firewarrior to beat a Demon Prince in close combat EVERY TIME because you saw a battle report on the internet where it happened this one time...
Thats interesting. Theoretically that means - if your children follow in your footsteps - they can't attend univesity or a good skilled trades school. Welcome to the wonderful world of retail....forever. Thanks dad!
kraken88 wrote:Google " Ian's story" to see what a vaccine is capable of. Im not willing to risk that for my son. Sory to the op. Im done.
Note how they state that they are not anti-vaccine, but wish for more development and more information. Not only is this an anomaly in the standard reactions, but it has still not stopped their parents from supporting the vaccines.
So, you're saying you'd rather expose your son to the infections that coat every surface on this planet with no sort of defense against it whatsoever than try to prevent it from happening and possibly (as in, 1 in several thousand at least) find he has an adverse reaction to it? I really don't want to be harsh, but education has taught us that vaccines are generally safe, and that immunologists are advancing them and making them safer all the time.
BlapBlapBlap wrote:Even if it contains pathogens, they have been weakened to the point where you will only get mild symptoms of the actual illness, and in return your immune system has optimized to combat the disease if it should strike again. Deathly ill you say? Children are prone to exaggeration. If you have friends in the medical profession, what field? If they are people such as busboys or nurses, they won't be specifically trained and do not have a full comprehension of this. An immunologist, however, is fully aware of the risks involved with it. It has been refined from the days of a small pinprick topped with pus to a fully developed vaccine.
It is not always the "vaccine" itself that is the problem but can be the carrier or some other aspect of the vaccine which can trigger reactions/complications in some patients. Just as most people can get stung by a bee and be fine after a few minutes swearing, there are some who get stung and are dead within seconds of being stung because they have a reaction to the sting and everything in between.
Generally very rare and to my knowledge getting rarer all the time with increased QC, design, testing etc.
The problem is that people get some anecdotal link between injection X and problem Y and run with it even if there is no statistically significant (or actual) link what-so-ever.
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Kovnik Obama wrote:Weird, I don't remember having to give a copy of my health portfolio to the 2 Unis I attended...
I may have had to at the first university I went to... pretty sure I had to but it was a while ago
The second one (that I am currently at) I didn't have to.
And as to the safety of the MMR - I've had that particular injection about 3-5 times now so I could fight super sized mumps with no problem now
Kovnik Obama wrote:Weird, I don't remember having to give a copy of my health portfolio to the 2 Unis I attended...
Remember in the US universities may be different than what you're thinking of, or alternatively, they may not be required in CD (already assumed to have).
I want to say one last thing please. I would like to apologize for calling the theory of evolution and american history "crap" in my original post. I should not judge other peoples beliefs just as I wish people would not judge my own. I am very sorry I if I offended anyone. I am not a scientist and all I can base my beliefs on are my own feelings and personal experience. I have nothing against people that send their kids to school or vaccinate or believe in evolution. Again, I'm sorry if I came off that way.
kraken88 wrote:I want to say one last thing please. I would like to apologize for calling the theory of evolution and american history "crap" in my original post. I should not judge other peoples beliefs just as I wish people would not judge my own. I am very sorry I if I offended anyone. I am not a scientist and all I can base my beliefs on are my own feelings and personal experience. I have nothing against people that send their kids to school or vaccinate or believe in evolution. Again, I'm sorry if I came off that way.
We're all friends here... sorry if any of the replies came off as insulting. I think that people can be a little incredulous if they see people with your kind of views and almost assume they are being trolled and react in kind.
Kovnik Obama wrote:Weird, I don't remember having to give a copy of my health portfolio to the 2 Unis I attended...
Remember in the US universities may be different than what you're thinking of, or alternatively, they may not be required in CD (already assumed to have).
Yeah that's what I assumed... But it would make sense... Anyhow, with the frequency I give blood to Hema-Quebec (yes, socialized blood drops = marxists vampires) I would probably be informed if I missed any important shot... Damn I should probably go see a doctor, I'm not sure I've seen one in the last 5 years...
Vimes wrote:You should recheck what theory in science actually means, though.
A thousand times over. There are an unfortunately large number of ignorant people (often rabid evangelists) who really don't understand scientific terms. A scientific theory is “a well-substantiated explanation of some aspect of the natural world, based on a body of facts that have been repeatedly confirmed through observation and experiment.”, to provide an exact quote from the national academy of sciences. The standards for considering something a theory rather than a hypothesis are at times staggeringly high. Hell, even a hypothesis is better than the usual use of the term "theory".
LoneLictor wrote:And why you think vaccines are so bad?
Because he doesn't love his children?\
Jokes aside, ignorance, mostly.
Chongara wrote:
Frazzled wrote:Do universities now require proof of immunization as well? I think so but...its been a looooooong while.
Yes.
I think so. And they even give warnings when a flu or other disease has been discovered in a student on campus, too.
Howard A Treesong wrote:Crazy people who need to shelter their children from those 'dangerous ideas' like evolution and vaccination programmes are the main reason to question the wisdom of allowing home education at all. It's scary the 'education' some children receive.
You know home-schooled kids have to meet certain standards too, right? There are regulations, and in Ohio at least, they're supposed to be evaluated evaluated every year. Sometimes students slip through the cracks, but that happens in public schools too. I've known home-schooled students who were extremely well educated (far better than the average public or private school student) and decently socialized, and I've also known home-schoolers who could barely read. Amazingly, there is a pretty wide spectrum of quality of education...just like in the public school system.
I'm absolutely not advocating sheltering children from ideas like evolution and not vaccinating children. Just pointing out that that's not always why people choose to home-school their kids, and that home education isn't always a bad thing.
Frazzled wrote:Do universities now require proof of immunization as well? I think so but...its been a looooooong while.
The first one I went to did but the second one didn't. My current job certainly does.
If you listed on your application to the second University that you had been to the first they may not have required it because they knew you already had to turn them in to get into the other school.
kraken88 wrote:I want to say one last thing please. I would like to apologize for calling the theory of evolution and american history "crap" in my original post. I should not judge other peoples beliefs just as I wish people would not judge my own. I am very sorry I if I offended anyone. I am not a scientist and all I can base my beliefs on are my own feelings and personal experience. I have nothing against people that send their kids to school or vaccinate or believe in evolution. Again, I'm sorry if I came off that way.
We're all friends here... sorry if any of the replies came off as insulting. I think that people can be a little incredulous if they see people with your kind of views and almost assume they are being trolled and react in kind.
No insults meant. I do pray that you reconsider the vaccination stuff. With open borders many of the illnesses long forgotten here have re-arrived. GC came down with whooping cough as did many of her classmates when someone came in with it from another country.
Easy E wrote:No argument from me there. I have no doubt making an "All-things, to All-People" system would be pretty hard.
I keep hearing about moving ot a post-industrial education system, but what does that even mean? Anybody got any ideas?
At it's most basic level it means moving away from the first half of the 20th century model of education we've still basically got. Instead of kids moving from one grade to the next you open things up, have kids move to different groups based on their ability in that task, not based on age group.
Its basically a crap load of ideas that are going to be tried in varying amounts in different places around the world, to see which ones work, in the hope that the more successful ones will be used more often.
The problem with this is that education is politically sensitive and very bureaucratic, basically lots of parents have 'common sense' ideas about how education ought to be which doesn't line up with what actually works best, and at the same time teachers are inlined to keep doing what's worked well enough for them instead of change. Which means just because something develops a proven track record works doesn't mean bringing it in will actually be very practical.
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Kovnik Obama wrote:Couldn't you oppose vaccination but still send your kid to school??? I mean, I'm thinking about homeschooling my kids (if I ever get any), but isn't it silly to keep them at home because of something that happens once every 6 months?
Vaccinations are less about the flu and more about measles, mumps, hooping cough, stuff that can kill you, and killed many hundreds of thousands of people before we developed vaccinations.
It sucks for kids to be denied access to public school because his parents trusted some quack anti-vaccination nutters, but other people's kids don't deserve to have their health placed at risk because of it.
On top of things, even if you disagree with the theory of evolution as a representation of the development of species, why would you want you kids to be badly informed about it? Knowing about silly theories can help you a lot, especially if you want your kid to become proficient with science...
Yeah, absolutely. The idea that you personally find something disagreeable therefore you'll stop your kid ever hearing about it... well it pretty much explains the attitude you need to doubt evolution in the first place.
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Kovnik Obama wrote:Ah, oki, well, it makes sense. Anyhow, don't we have at least a century of vaccinations to give us a history of the bad side effects? Even with medical history being private, I'm sure that there would be some way of tracking pretty accuratly the problematic cases?
We know very well how we've managed to get rid of diseases we now vaccinate for. There were 21,000 new sufferers of polio in 1952. With the introduction of the polio vaccine in 1955, the number of cases dropped to 65 by 1965. Whooping cough killed about 8,000 kids a year in the USA in the 1930s and 40s, with the introduction of a vaccine there has been just a handful of recorded deaths in the last 60 years.
The science is clear. Some people choose to ignore science, for a variety of reasons.
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Vulcan wrote:It's like expecting a Tau Firewarrior to beat a Demon Prince in close combat EVERY TIME because you saw a battle report on the internet where it happened this one time...
To be fair, that's actually something you see on the internet a lot; "I saw this amazing thing happen once so you're wrong to tell me the odds of it happening are unlikely." A lot of people are just generally wired to be really stupid when it comes to calculating probability.
Of course, in games of Warhammer it's a pretty harmless thing, if a little frustrating if the guy happens to be on your side. When it comes to vaccination that stupidity is putting kid's lives at risk, so it's a bit different.
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kraken88 wrote:I want to say one last thing please. I would like to apologize for calling the theory of evolution and american history "crap" in my original post. I should not judge other peoples beliefs just as I wish people would not judge my own. I am very sorry I if I offended anyone. I am not a scientist and all I can base my beliefs on are my own feelings and personal experience. I have nothing against people that send their kids to school or vaccinate or believe in evolution. Again, I'm sorry if I came off that way.
Thankyou for the call to calm things down. Sorry that I and other posters were so aggressive.
And when it comes to evolution, it's fine to just agree to disagree. Science will march on learning and discovering regardless, it doesn't need belief.
But vaccination is not just about everyone getting to have their own beliefs. There are real consequences when people don't vaccinate their children. Deaths from polio, whooping cough and other diseases are more likely with every parent who decides not to vaccinate their kid.
Mn, for what he did with the Polio vaccine, Jonas Salk could probably be made in to a saint....
At any rate, the particular anti-vaccine movement I'm thinking of is based off of a sad person lashing out at whatever she can to cope with her son's autism, instead of clear thinking.
kraken88 wrote: I should not judge other peoples beliefs just as I wish people would not judge my own.
I'm sorry thats not how it works. Just as how everyones opinion is not actually right some peoples beliefs are build upon ignorance and they need to be challenged. In this case it sounds very much like you will damage your childs health and future prospects and I simply can't support that.
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Ahtman wrote:
Palindrome wrote:
Frazzled wrote:Do universities now require proof of immunization as well? I think so but...its been a looooooong while.
The first one I went to did but the second one didn't. My current job certainly does.
If you listed on your application to the second University that you had been to the first they may not have required it because they knew you already had to turn them in to get into the other school.
Its possible but as it was 10 years previously some of my vaccinations could have lapsed, My Hep B status at least should have been asked given my line of work.
Frazzled wrote:The boy has Assberger's (I think thats what it was called).
It's "Aspergers" not assburgers or assburgers or asparagus or asspie or any of the other names that used to get shouted at me (sorry if that seemed curt, it's just that the name being gotten wrong really annoys me)
sebster wrote:
But vaccination is not just about everyone getting to have their own beliefs. There are real consequences when people don't vaccinate their children. Deaths from polio, whooping cough and other diseases are more likely with every parent who decides not to vaccinate their kid.
... and not just the deaths of children whose parents are making those awful decisions, but every child out there who can't be vaccinated. They're basically forcing every kid out there with a weak immune system to play Russian roulette because of their insane belief in a conspiracy theory with no real evidence backing it up.
Trust me death from a vaccine is not a minor risk. You need to research vaccines for yourself before you pass judgment. Vaccines are deadly, its a fact. I didn't just Google this stuff, I have many friends and family in the medical field. Do me a favor and look up some statistics on how many doctors vaccinate their own kids. I will be waiting for your reply.
As someone who has had pretty much every vaccine under the sun (its required when you have a transplant), including some after the transplant (Influenza) when my immune system is weakened from immunosuppressant drugs to prevent rejection, I think I can safely say that the risk of death from a vaccine is incredibly small.
To suggest otherwise is to show gross misunderstanding of just how rigorous and strict medical testing guidelines are. Did you know that if aspirin, one of the most widely used painkillers and blood thinners in the world, were to be discovered today it probably wouldn't pass the tests to be considered fit for human use, due to its possible side effects?
As for the good from vaccination, when was the last time you heard about someone dying from Smallpox?
Science, technology, engineering, and math (STEM) education is critical in the high-tech global marketplace that has replaced the industrial economy. Unfortunately, American students perform poorly on international assessments of math and science knowledge. In 2005, Bill Gates said, “When I compare our high schools to what I see when I’m traveling abroad, I am terrified for our workforce of tomorrow.”
One challenge to reforming our educational system is that politicians and voters think they know what’s wrong with American schools—after all, they went through the system themselves. But some of those common-sense opinions are simply wrong, and these false assumptions undermine much of the public debate about how to improve education.
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Here are five of the myths that are making it difficult for us to fix science education.
1. American schools have deteriorated in the past 30 or 40 years, as demonstrated by our poor performance on international assessments of math and science achievement. We need to restore American elementary and secondary education to their previous glory.
FACT: The mantra from many educators and policy-makers for a quarter-century has been to lament the decline of American schools. Even the classic 1983 report “A Nation at Risk,” which sounded the alarm about the American education system, says, “What was unimaginable a generation ago has begun to occur—others are matching and surpassing our educational attainments.” But this is a flawed assessment of our past.
The fact that we score poorly now does not mean that our educational system has deteriorated. In fact, it was always bad. Our high school students have always scored at or near the bottom, even as our college and university system was, and is, the best in the world. In a 1965 mathematics assessment, 18 years prior to “A Nation at Risk,” the United States placed last among all nations tested. The other nations achieved mean scores from 36.4 to 21.6. The U.S. score: 13.8.
Incorrectly believing that American students used to excel hampers our reform efforts. It makes the challenge of improving STEM education seem easier than it is.
2. If a student performs poorly, it’s because she doesn’t have the aptitude for math and science.
FACT: Perhaps the most important research finding to emerge from international comparisons of math and science achievement is this: When American students struggle, teachers and parents attribute this failure to low aptitude. When students in many top-ranked nations, like Japan, don’t perform well, teachers and parents conclude that they have not worked hard enough. Aptitude has been overrated as a factor in achievement. Hard work and practice are more important.
3. Curriculum reform is the key to higher achievement in math and science.
FACT: Ever since Sputnik, the federal government and other funders have invested huge sums in curriculum reform. The best-known such effort was the School Mathematics Study Group effort, aka the “new math.” The idea was to teach schoolchildren theoretical math concepts, like set theory. But the students couldn’t get it, and their parents could not help them. The new math was about as successful as New Coke.
Since the 1950s, there have been a number of other massive, expensive curriculum reform efforts about physics, biology, and calculus, among other subjects. Unfortunately, these reforms have not substantially improved the achievement of American students
Better that your child should be taught by an exciting, creative teacher using an outdated text than by a boring or hostile teacher using the latest curriculum.
4. OK, well-prepared teachers are important. We need a massive recruiting drive to attract the top college graduates into teaching.
FACT: We need more excellent teachers, and attracting top students into STEM teaching helps. The problem, however, is not recruiting people into teaching. The problem is keeping them in teaching. Teachers work very hard. They are not paid enough. They endure great stress daily. These factors drive many out of the profession. A study by the National Education Association found that the five year dropout rate for new teachers is 50 percent.
It’s like pouring water into a sieve. We must develop and implement effective strategies for retaining the talented people who choose this profession. Most important is professional development, the process of renewing and upgrading teacher knowledge and competencies.
5. Only the top students should consider becoming math and science teachers. No C students allowed.
FACT: Excellent teaching requires more than simply possessing knowledge. You have to know how to communicate this knowledge. You have to remember what it was like not to understand the concept. This is why, sometimes, C students can teach others better than A students. They remember their initial confusion as they struggled to master the concept. The A students “got it” immediately and often have a hard time relating to students who don’t get it.
I am not suggesting that we favor C students over A students. We need talented teachers who thoroughly understand the subject matter. But occasionally a C student becomes an excellent teacher—and therein lies the last lesson:
Fostering student achievement ultimately is not about who the teacher is; it’s about how he or she teaches.
But I will say, schools/teachers will never be 100% perfect and so whatever you think they are falling behind on, its up to the parent to build that part up. Again, my sons writing and some spelling we work on weekly at least, because his teacher NEVER corrected the children when they misspelled rock or something, and that bugged me. But again, parents doing their jobs
