People were kind of talking about this a little bit in another thread and it never really came to resolution. So my question is, who is the more powerful psyker? Magnus or Eldrad?
Feel free to post answers if you wish or feel that it would answer the question more thoroughly than the poll.
GW doesn't really answer this well. Some sources indicate the Eldar are the undisputed masters of the psychic domain, others that humans, while on average below the eldar, surpass them in their most talented individuals, like alpha class psykers.
I tend to go with the second interpretation. Humans are undisciplined, psychically immature, and tend to burn out faster than Eldar, but their most talented individuals seem to far surpass anything a single Eldar is capable of.
Going with this, in my personal interpretation Magnus is the more 'powerful' of the two, though Eldrad would be far more skilled and better able to utilize his power.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Another thing in Magnuses favor is that Eldrad can be represented on the tabletop, whereas primarchs generally considered not appropriate for tabletop scale combat.
Again, that isn't to say Eldrad is below Magnus. I think is probably far more capable of making predictions and commanding in the long run. (for example, I doubt he would have made the foolish mistake Magnus did in attempting to warn the Emperor) But in terms of pure power he isn't a behemoth like Magnus was/is.
If I remember right, there was a bit of fluff in codex craftworld eldar where a captured Ulthwe ranger was saying to his interrogator that Eldrad for saw the HH and warned "that fledgling seer" (the emperor) about it. In terms of raw screw up the other guy power yea magnus has it, but I see eldrad as having a far greater reach and potential with his power. Kinda like comparing Khorn to Tzentch, one has power the other has influence.
"that fledgling seer" line seemed odd to me. The Emperor was 40k years old. I know Eldar aren't truly immortal, and I didn't think their lifetime was such that they would sneer at 40k year old being.
riplikash wrote:GW doesn't really answer this well. Some sources indicate the Eldar are the undisputed masters of the psychic domain, others that humans, while on average below the eldar, surpass them in their most talented individuals, like alpha class psykers.
I tend to go with the second interpretation. Humans are undisciplined, psychically immature, and tend to burn out faster than Eldar, but their most talented individuals seem to far surpass anything a single Eldar is capable of.
Some Humans may exceed the generic Eldar in pure psychic power (Alpha Psykers), however equally the greatest Eldar psykers will make the greatest Human psykers look like rank amaterurs and crush them as such.
riplikash wrote:[user]Automatically Appended Next Post: Another thing in Magnuses favor is that Eldrad can be represented on the tabletop, whereas primarchs generally considered not appropriate for tabletop scale combat.
Fluff does not equal rules and vice versa! If it did Muagan Ra could slaugter a Apoc Sized Tyranid army by him self (In their own codex no less)!
Now Eldar lore isn't my forte. Are there examples of Eldar Alpha level psykers? I was under the impression there were not; that they were both more consistently powerful, and far more skilled and disciplined, but that they didn't reach such heights of pure power.
Any examples of Eldar being able to toss titans and crack continents?
Eldrad is but a shadow of what the Eldar were in their height and he may not be all that powerful. If he really was all that powerful, he could have killed Angron quite easily. But instead Angron gave the Avatar Eldrad brought along a nice butt whooping and Eldrad barely escaped.
And then the Eldar are far too scared to use their powers to their full potential because of Slannesh. Magnus and the Emperor have no such issues.
Thats just the HH era Magnus.
The current Magnus wouldn't even bat an eyelash at the likes of Eldrad.
Not that it matters since Eldrad is dead. No, worse then dead. He's getting royally rodgered by Slannesh.
Grey Templar wrote:
Eldrad is but a shadow of what the Eldar were in their height and he may not be all that powerful. If he really was all that powerful, he could have killed Angron quite easily. But instead Angron gave the Avatar Eldrad brought along a nice butt whooping and Eldrad barely escaped.
Following that line of thought, The Emperor should never have gotten strangled by that Ork Warboss. 40k, like in all badly defined lore, allows high level fighters to match high level psykers, because otherwise it just wouldn't be fair
And then the Eldar are far too scared to use their powers to their full potential because of Slannesh. Magnus and the Emperor have no such issues.
I'm not sure where you get this from.. Any indication that eldar using psychic powers attract Slaanesh's attention?
Not that it matters since Eldrad is dead. No, worse then dead. He's getting royally rodgered by Slannesh.
I thought that his soul was trapped in a loss soulstone?
riplikash wrote:Now Eldar lore isn't my forte. Are there examples of Eldar Alpha level psykers? I was under the impression there were not; that they were both more consistently powerful, and far more skilled and disciplined, but that they didn't reach such heights of pure power.
Any examples of Eldar being able to toss titans and crack continents?
There are tales of Eldar killing stars with their minds before the fall, however when one can see and manlipulate the future to such a degree as the Eldar can such blatent shows of force are crude and unnecessary.
Grey Templar wrote:Magnus would probably squish Eldrad like a flea.
Eldrad is but a shadow of what the Eldar were in their height and he may not be all that powerful. If he really was all that powerful, he could have killed Angron quite easily. But instead Angron gave the Avatar Eldrad brought along a nice butt whooping and Eldrad barely escaped.
First of all the Primarch in question is Fulgrim not Angron.
And the Horus Heresy novels are a poor source of information on the Eldar, sadly caused by most black libary authors not knowing what they are talking about in regards to Eldar. For instance ancient howling banshee masks being found in 'A Thousand Sons' when at that time point aspect warriors would of been a recent devolopment. And 'strangling' a statue with molten iron to death... really?
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Kovnik Obama wrote:
Grey Templar wrote:
Not that it matters since Eldrad is dead. No, worse then dead. He's getting royally rodgered by Slannesh.
I thought that his soul was trapped in a loss soulstone?
Eldrad split his soul across several spirit stones, all of which are still active... his body may be dead but his spirit is still alive
riplikash wrote:Now Eldar lore isn't my forte. Are there examples of Eldar Alpha level psykers? I was under the impression there were not; that they were both more consistently powerful, and far more skilled and disciplined, but that they didn't reach such heights of pure power.
Any examples of Eldar being able to toss titans and crack continents?
There are tales of Eldar killing stars with their minds before the fall, however when one can see and manlipulate the future to such a degree as the Eldar can such blatent shows of force are crude and unnecessary.
The Emperor defeated and imprisoned the Void Dragon. Even if it was a shard, the shards were around already towards the end of the War in Heaven and not even the Eldar defeated them then. If the Necrons didn't choose to go into dormancy, they'd still have won in the long run. As will the Imperium now.
Grey Templar wrote:Magnus would probably squish Eldrad like a flea.
Eldrad is but a shadow of what the Eldar were in their height and he may not be all that powerful. If he really was all that powerful, he could have killed Angron quite easily. But instead Angron gave the Avatar Eldrad brought along a nice butt whooping and Eldrad barely escaped.
First of all the Primarch in question is Fulgrim not Angron.
And the Horus Heresy novels are a poor source of information on the Eldar, sadly caused by most black libary authors not knowing what they are talking about in regards to Eldar. For instance ancient howling banshee masks being found in 'A Thousand Sons' when at that time point aspect warriors would of been a recent devolopment. And 'strangling' a statue with molten iron to death... really?
A Primarch is a demi-god. Does that answer your question? And the HH novels are canon. GW said so already.
On-topic, Magnus would either rip Eldrad in half in close-combat, or turn him into a pile of ashes and daemon bait from a distance. He's the Emperor's son; the Emperor who walked the galaxy when Mankind was young and witnessed the Eldar Empire at its height and its fall from grace to the depths of depravity. Not to mention the only being that ever forced the Chaos Powers to stop the Great Game and move as one in fear. Not even the Eldar Gods did that, or the fact that the Powers ignore the Eldar most of the time. You think the son of a man like that can be beaten by a puny Eldar Witch? Of course not.
The Crimson King!
If you want to think of it like this, in the Eldar Codex, you are allowed to field Eldrad on the table, and his rules seem pretty fluffy to me.
If they allowed you to run Magnus table top, and make his rules accurately fluffy, he'd be an outrageous, high point, unstoppable murder machine for apocalypse games.
Tadashi wrote:repetitive stuff already seen a hundred times
On-topic, Magnus would either rip Eldrad in half in close-combat, or turn him into a pile of ashes and daemon bait from a distance. He's the Emperor's son, a being who walked the galaxy when Mankind was young and witnessed the Eldar Empire at its height and its fall from grace to the depths of depravity. Not to mention the only being that ever forced the Chaos Powers to stop the Great Game and move as one in fear. Not even the Eldar Gods did that, or the fact that the Powers ignore the Eldar most of the time. You think the son of a man like that can be beaten by a puny Eldar Witch? Of course not.
You are one of the most biased people on this forum. Every time there's a thread about any race vs. the imperium, you always have to come up shouting how the Imperium is so much better than everyone else.
"You think the son of a man like that can be beaten by a puny Eldar Witch? Of course not"
Firstly, this comment is absolutely useless because it's your very biased opinion. Secondly, Eldrad is male and therefore not a witch.
The Eldar fall was before man took to the stars, so I doubt the primarchs witnessed it.
I agree that Magnus has more raw psychic power, but then again, the primarchs are pretty much demi-gods as you insistently cry. You can hardly compare demi-gods to mortal Eldar.
Lord Rogukiel wrote: The Eldar fall was before man took to the stars, so I doubt the primarchs witnessed it.
Before? On the contrary, Mankind was already travelling the stars before the Fall. In fact, the Eldar must also take part of the blame for the Old Night. The fall into depravity of the Eldar led to the Warp Storms that would herald the not just the Fall of the Eldar but also the Old Night. And yes, the Primarchs did not see the Fall, but the Emperor certainly did. The Emperor walked the stars when Mankind was young and vigorous - during the Golden Age of Technology - and witnessed the fall from grace of the Eldar. He is older than any Eldar still alive, and is the only one known to have defeated a C'tan by Himself, and the only one the Chaos Powers consider as their equal, even if only in the form of their greatest enemy.
And in 40k, Witch is a unisex term, applicable to both male and female.
Lord Rogukiel wrote:
The Eldar fall was before man took to the stars, so I doubt the primarchs witnessed it.
Before? On the contrary, Mankind was already travelling the stars before the Fall. In fact, the Eldar must also take part of the blame for the Old Night. The fall into depravity of the Eldar led to the Warp Storms that would herald the not just the Fall of the Eldar but also the Old Night. And yes, the Primarchs did not see the Fall, but the Emperor certainly did. The Emperor walked the stars when Mankind was young and vigorous - during the Golden Age of Technology - and witnessed the fall from grace of the Eldar. He is older than any Eldar still alive, and is the only one known to have defeated a C'tan by Himself, and the only one the Chaos Powers consider as their equal, even if only in the form of their greatest enemy.
And in 40k, Witch is a unisex term, applicable to both male and female.
The fall of the Eldar allowed the warp storms around Terra to clear up and mankind to readily take to the stars as Balance was brought to the warp due to Slaanesh's birth.
Lord Rogukiel wrote:
The Eldar fall was before man took to the stars, so I doubt the primarchs witnessed it.
Before? On the contrary, Mankind was already travelling the stars before the Fall. In fact, the Eldar must also take part of the blame for the Old Night. The fall into depravity of the Eldar led to the Warp Storms that would herald the not just the Fall of the Eldar but also the Old Night. And yes, the Primarchs did not see the Fall, but the Emperor certainly did. The Emperor walked the stars when Mankind was young and vigorous - during the Golden Age of Technology - and witnessed the fall from grace of the Eldar. He is older than any Eldar still alive, and is the only one known to have defeated a C'tan by Himself, and the only one the Chaos Powers consider as their equal, even if only in the form of their greatest enemy.
And in 40k, Witch is a unisex term, applicable to both male and female.
The fall of the Eldar allowed the warp storms around Terra to clear up and mankind to readily take to the stars as Balance was brought to the warp due to Slaanesh's birth.
True, but those Warp Storms erupted because of the decadence of the Eldar Empire. Together with the war with the Men of Iron and the increasing number of Eldar psykers, it began the Old Night.
Lord Rogukiel wrote:
The Eldar fall was before man took to the stars, so I doubt the primarchs witnessed it.
Before? On the contrary, Mankind was already travelling the stars before the Fall. In fact, the Eldar must also take part of the blame for the Old Night. The fall into depravity of the Eldar led to the Warp Storms that would herald the not just the Fall of the Eldar but also the Old Night. And yes, the Primarchs did not see the Fall, but the Emperor certainly did. The Emperor walked the stars when Mankind was young and vigorous - during the Golden Age of Technology - and witnessed the fall from grace of the Eldar. He is older than any Eldar still alive, and is the only one known to have defeated a C'tan by Himself, and the only one the Chaos Powers consider as their equal, even if only in the form of their greatest enemy.
And in 40k, Witch is a unisex term, applicable to both male and female.
The fall of the Eldar allowed the warp storms around Terra to clear up and mankind to readily take to the stars as Balance was brought to the warp due to Slaanesh's birth.
True, but those Warp Storms erupted because of the decadence of the Eldar Empire. Together with the war with the Men of Iron and the increasing number of Eldar psykers, it began the Old Night.
LOL, It's always everyone elses fault apart from the Imperiums ...
The Eldar were already a psychic race so the Age of Strife had little, if nothing, to do with the Eldar. It was down to the uncontrolled emergence of so many psykers amongst humanity. The decadence of the Eldar was responsible for the birth of Slaanesh, which is more than enough to pin on them.
The Warp Storms that disrupted warp travel and communications at the beginning of the Old Night were caused by Slaanesh' growing sentience and form within the Warp as caused by the decadent Eldar Empire.
Tadashi wrote:The Warp Storms that disrupted warp travel and communications at the beginning of the Old Night were caused by Slaanesh' growing sentience and form within the Warp as caused by the decadent Eldar Empire.
Ok ... but it's also down to the emergence of uncontrolled human psykers
Tadashi wrote:The Warp Storms that disrupted warp travel and communications at the beginning of the Old Night were caused by Slaanesh' growing sentience and form within the Warp as caused by the decadent Eldar Empire.
Ok ... but it's also down to the emergence of uncontrolled human psykers
AFAIK, there were three causes for the Old Night:
1) The devastation of the war with the Men of Iron.
2) Increasing numbers of Human psykers, of whom only a bare few could properly use their powers or resist Chaotic influence/daemonic possession.
3) The Warp Storms caused by the decadence of the Eldar Empire.
Tadashi wrote:
2) Increasing numbers of Human psykers, of whom only a bare few could properly use their powers or resist Chaotic influence/daemonic possession.
Tadashi wrote:
2) Increasing numbers of Human psykers, of whom only a bare few could properly use their powers or resist Chaotic influence/daemonic possession.
Hence the uncontrolled part I mention
So you did. But I never claimed that the Old Night was entirely the fault of the Eldar. In my earlier post, I simply said 'partly the blame'.
Tadashi wrote:
2) Increasing numbers of Human psykers, of whom only a bare few could properly use their powers or resist Chaotic influence/daemonic possession.
Hence the uncontrolled part I mention
So you did. But I never claimed that the Old Night was entirely the fault of the Eldar. In my earlier post, I simply said 'partly the blame'.
Tadashi wrote:repetitive stuff already seen a hundred times
On-topic, Magnus would either rip Eldrad in half in close-combat, or turn him into a pile of ashes and daemon bait from a distance. He's the Emperor's son, a being who walked the galaxy when Mankind was young and witnessed the Eldar Empire at its height and its fall from grace to the depths of depravity. Not to mention the only being that ever forced the Chaos Powers to stop the Great Game and move as one in fear. Not even the Eldar Gods did that, or the fact that the Powers ignore the Eldar most of the time. You think the son of a man like that can be beaten by a puny Eldar Witch? Of course not.
You are one of the most biased people on this forum. Every time there's a thread about any race vs. the imperium, you always have to come up shouting how the Imperium is so much better than everyone else.
"You think the son of a man like that can be beaten by a puny Eldar Witch? Of course not"
Firstly, this comment is absolutely useless because it's your very biased opinion. Secondly, Eldrad is male and therefore not a witch.
The Eldar fall was before man took to the stars, so I doubt the primarchs witnessed it.
I agree that Magnus has more raw psychic power, but then again, the primarchs are pretty much demi-gods as you insistently cry. You can hardly compare demi-gods to mortal Eldar.
After watching you two argue, I'll put forth my consensus;
I do think you are incredibly biased on the side of the imperium, Tadashi, but you aren't wrong in some regards, and I enjoy reading some of your posts
Magnus would probably beat Eldrad, but it would be a relatively close match. Eldrad was alive at the fall - aka was at his full power at the hight of the eldar empire and still is. The rules don't really support this for him, as he probably could wipe out stars I believe.
But, Magnus is human, and has more raw power he can't fully control, and so would eventually defeat Eldrad, because Magnus is a demi-god, created by the most powerful of psykers
TL;DR Magnus would manage to win, but Eldrad would give him a run for his money.
I voted Magnus in the end. I think however, that psychic powers manifest differently (or so it appears) between Humans and Eldar. Eldar's powers were already immense before the Fall, and when Asuryan died by Slaanesh's Hands IIRC he gave part of his power to the Eldar race so they could carry on without the Eldar Gods. This transference of power is what causes all Eldar to be so infertile and is the bane and boon of their society. It is also, once again IIRC, what truly brought about the existence of Farseers as we know them.
However, than that prompts us to look at what the Eldar powers have become in reference to that event. Human psychic powers are usually extremely malevolent, even Magnus's Psychic Powers are usually blasts/fire/lighting. All human's seem to fall along that line, with a very limited amount of foresight (pretty much only enough to effect the actual situation at hand, and more typically being able to slow time than predict future events). Humans malevolent power seems to be extremely power compared to that of Eldar's when you compare each race's "top of the line" Psykers. Even take what the lore gives us, IG Psykers or Librarians can hit much harder and have more utility than a Eldar Warlock who I would have to imagine is considered about equal status in the Eldar race.
However, the visions of the future are given to Mankind by false powers primarily (Magnus's ability to see the future is from Tzeentch. Most human psykers have little to no ability to see the future) where as Eldar have a plentiful amount of Farseers. I believe this is the main difference between each being a psychically active race, that while Humans have brute force, Eldar have finesse. This is seen in how the Eldar's main use of Psychic Powers are to see or influence the future (Guide/Doom/Future are all examples of this). Eldar's psychic powers are in tune with their way of life, they are intelligent and well thought out while having taking backstabbing or underhanded tactics. This is inline with their powers. Humans are brutal and relentless, but not nearly as cunning or well thought out. Their powers are indicative of themselves and their way of life for each species. Even the Psychic powers or Orks match their lifestyle.
As for a battle between Eldrad and Magnus, it really depends on what Eldrad saw for that event and how early he had that vision before the fight. Years before the fight, a very well planned trick could give Eldrad the day. Knowing he would never match Magnus's raw Psyhic Might, maybe he inscribes a Rune on the ground and tricks Magnus into standing on it, thus nullifying all of his powers and giving Eldrad the moment to strike. That is how Eldrad would go about winning, or luring him into a trap sprung by his Seer Council (after all, Eldar don't really have much chivalry). However, if Eldrad only knew of the battle a day before hand, he may very well be screwed. I don't think any Eldar Psyker would have a chance head on in a battle vs Magnus or the Emperor.
TL;DR Magnus would manage to win, but Eldrad would give him a run for his money.
I can accept that.
Farseer Mael Dannan wrote:Eldar's powers were already immense before the Fall, and when Asuryan died by Slaanesh's Hands IIRC he gave part of his power to the Eldar race so they could carry on without the Eldar Gods. This transference of power is what causes all Eldar to be so infertile and is the bane and boon of their society. It is also, once again IIRC, what truly brought about the existence of Farseers as we know them.
Where did this come from? I thought Asuryan was obliterated/consumed at the instant of the Fall.
However, than that prompts us to look at what the Eldar powers have become in reference to that event. Human psychic powers are usually extremely malevolent, even Magnus's Psychic Powers are usually blasts/fire/lighting. All human's seem to fall along that line, with a very limited amount of foresight (pretty much only enough to effect the actual situation at hand, and more typically being able to slow time than predict future events). Humans malevolent power seems to be extremely power compared to that of Eldar's when you compare each race's "top of the line" Psykers. Even take what the lore gives us, IG Psykers or Librarians can hit much harder and have more utility than a Eldar Warlock who I would have to imagine is considered about equal status in the Eldar race.
However, the visions of the future are given to Mankind by false powers primarily (Magnus's ability to see the future is from Tzeentch. Most human psykers have little to no ability to see the future) where as Eldar have a plentiful amount of Farseers. I believe this is the main difference between each being a psychically active race, that while Humans have brute force, Eldar have finesse. This is seen in how the Eldar's main use of Psychic Powers are to see or influence the future (Guide/Doom/Future are all examples of this). Eldar's psychic powers are in tune with their way of life, they are intelligent and well thought out while having taking backstabbing or underhanded tactics. This is inline with their powers. Humans are brutal and relentless, but not nearly as cunning or well thought out. Their powers are indicative of themselves and their way of life for each species. Even the Psychic powers or Orks match their lifestyle.
I think this pretty much sums up the difference in the connection to the Warp the Eldar and Humans have. Chaos and Mankind are one and the same, so it shouldn't be surprising that Human powers are enormously destructive - lacking refinement, but monstrously powerful, like the Chaos Powers. Eldar lack pure power, but they make up for it in refinement and finesse.
As for a battle between Eldrad and Magnus, it really depends on what Eldrad saw for that event and how early he had that vision before the fight. Years before the fight, a very well planned trick could give Eldrad the day. Knowing he would never match Magnus's raw Psyhic Might, maybe he inscribes a Rune on the ground and tricks Magnus into standing on it, thus nullifying all of his powers and giving Eldrad the moment to strike. That is how Eldrad would go about winning, or luring him into a trap sprung by his Seer Council (after all, Eldar don't really have much chivalry). However, if Eldrad only knew of the battle a day before hand, he may very well be screwed. I don't think any Eldar Psyker would have a chance head on in a battle vs Magnus or the Emperor.
There's still a chance Magnus would just overpower the rune or engage Eldrad in close combat without psychic powers. Magnus is a Primarch, and all of them had great resistance to the Warp inherited from their father.
Tadashi wrote:
Where did this come from? I thought Asuryan was obliterated/consumed at the instant of the Fall.
I can't remember which Codex had it in there, but I went on a spree of reading all the Codexs and I remember something along these lines happening. I would guess 2nd edition but don't quote me on that. If I can find them at my parents house next time I go there I'll dig up where it was covered.
Tadashi wrote:
There's still a chance Magnus would just overpower the rune or engage Eldrad in close combat without psychic powers. Magnus is a Primarch, and all of them had great resistance to the Warp inherited from their father.
This is very true. You would have to imagine that victory could be Eldard's though between the Rune, seeing the future, and I'm sure having his own Seer Council setup for an ambush when he activated the Rune. Now Magnus resisting the Rune would be up in there air, much like the roll of a dice.
This is very true. You would have to imagine that victory could be Eldard's though between the Rune, seeing the future, and I'm sure having his own Seer Council setup for an ambush when he activated the Rune. Now Magnus resisting the Rune would be up in there air, much like the roll of a dice.
If we involve a Seer Council, we're going to have to involve either the Scarab Occult or the Five Magisters of the Thousand Sons as well just to balance it out. Regardless of whether or not we involve them though, it's going to boil down to power (Magnus) against refinement (Eldrad). If the battle becomes drawn out, Eldrad should retreat: overwhelming power becomes an advantage in attrition battles as proven in WWII.
Nitros14 wrote:Eldrad doesn't have the God of Magic pouring power into him, whatever his natural talent might be.
Even without Tzeentch backing him up, Magnus' raw psychic might, as the Emperor's son, is far beyond Eldrad.
Where is your basis of reference?
We've gotten the insite of Magnus from the HH books, but what background do we have on Eldrad to say either way? The only entity to even defeat Eldrad psychicaly was Slaanesh himself, as far as published fluff has established. And I'd wager that even Magnus couldn't stand up to a direct assault by a god of Chaos.
From all I've read, Magnus was a cudgel. Powerful, but not possessed of a lot of finesse. Eldrad, like all Eldar, was more like a mono-molecular scalpal. Sharp, and focused. His ability to act as a Farseer was unparalleled by any in his race.
Both were the best their race had to offer. Both worked with the Warp in differant ways. I see it more like asking whose the better fighter, Bruce Lee, or Mike Tyson.
Nitros14 wrote:Eldrad doesn't have the God of Magic pouring power into him, whatever his natural talent might be.
Even without Tzeentch backing him up, Magnus' raw psychic might, as the Emperor's son, is far beyond Eldrad.
Where is your basis of reference?
We've gotten the insite of Magnus from the HH books, but what background do we have on Eldrad to say either way? The only entity to even defeat Eldrad psychicaly was Slaanesh himself, as far as published fluff has established. And I'd wager that even Magnus couldn't stand up to a direct assault by a god of Chaos.
From all I've read, Magnus was a cudgel. Powerful, but not possessed of a lot of finesse. Eldrad, like all Eldar, was more like a mono-molecular scalpal. Sharp, and focused. His ability to act as a Farseer was unparalleled by any in his race.
Since when did Eldrad confront Slaanesh and win? Last I heard, when he linked himself to the Blackstone, Slaanesh devoured him almost in an instant. Only multiple Spirit Stones barely gave him a chance at survival, assuming they can find a way to get his soul back from Slaanesh.
More importantly, mortals cannot directly confront gods. The Emperor could, because He's not mortal, but as long as He remains physically present on the material realm, He cannot directly confront the Powers.
And once again, the difference between Human and Eldar psykers are power and refinement. If Eldrad confronted Magnus, the former would have to avoid directly taking Magnus' hits - if he did, it'd be over in an instant. He'd also have to end it as quickly as possible, because once Magnus adapts and brings his full power to bear, he'd be at a disadvantage. Yes, a scalpel or a poisoned dagger would kill more cleanly than either a sword or a hammer, but the latter two still pack a bigger punch.
Nitros14 wrote:Eldrad doesn't have the God of Magic pouring power into him, whatever his natural talent might be.
Even without Tzeentch backing him up, Magnus' raw psychic might, as the Emperor's son, is far beyond Eldrad.
Where is your basis of reference?
We've gotten the insite of Magnus from the HH books, but what background do we have on Eldrad to say either way? The only entity to even defeat Eldrad psychicaly was Slaanesh himself, as far as published fluff has established. And I'd wager that even Magnus couldn't stand up to a direct assault by a god of Chaos.
From all I've read, Magnus was a cudgel. Powerful, but not possessed of a lot of finesse. Eldrad, like all Eldar, was more like a mono-molecular scalpal. Sharp, and focused. His ability to act as a Farseer was unparalleled by any in his race.
Since when did Eldrad confront Slaanesh and win? Last I heard, when he linked himself to the Blackstone, Slaanesh devoured him almost in an instant. Only multiple Spirit Stones barely gave him a chance at survival, assuming they can find a way to get his soul back from Slaanesh.
More importantly, mortals cannot directly confront gods. The Emperor could, because He's not mortal, but as long as He remains physically present on the material realm, He cannot directly confront the Powers.
And once again, the difference between Human and Eldar psykers are power and refinement. If Eldrad confronted Magnus, the former would have to avoid directly taking Magnus' hits - if he did, it'd be over in an instant. He'd also have to end it as quickly as possible, because once Magnus adapts and brings his full power to bear, he'd be at a disadvantage. Yes, a scalpel or a poisoned dagger would kill more cleanly than either a sword or a hammer, but the latter two still pack a bigger punch.
Reread original post. "Only entity to defeat eldrad", which means that Eldrad lost.
I'm not very clear on where all these Eldrad references come from. I'm not much of an Eldar fan so I haven't read much on Eldar.
I know the stuff you'd see in the codecii over the years but I've never read a novel that was based on the Eldar.
I haven't really seen any evidence of Eldrad doing any great psyker acts. I'm not saying he hasn't, I just don't know.
And are we talking about Magnus before or after the Heresy?
Before the Heresy I would give Magnus the slight edge in his powers as a primarch. If Eldrad is so awesomely powerful why did he need such a large bodyguard just to have tea with Fulgrim?
After the Heresy there is no contest. Magnus the avatar of Tzeentch vs an old mystic.
Ok this comparison is rather silly to be honest. Magnus is the 2nd most powerful psychic entity in the universe right now behind Tzeentch. I know some people would want to bring up the Emperor still but lets be honest he's pretty much a psychic vampire entombed in a shiny Throne.
The better comparison would be to compare him to the psykers that exist within the game. For Chaos it would be Ahriman. Now he's a pretty wicked psyker in his own right. Then you have Tigurius for the Ultramarines, Njal for the Wolves and Mephiston for the Blood Angels. If you want to count Daemons then I guess Fateweaver would be in there somewhere. A Tyranid Hive Tyrant would have to be considered too since he can use his powers to cripple a squad or make them run away in terror while being almost immune to enemy psykers because of Shadows in the Warp
Reivax26 wrote:Ok this comparison is rather silly to be honest. Magnus is the 2nd most powerful psychic entity in the universe right now behind Tzeentch. I know some people would want to bring up the Emperor still but lets be honest he's pretty much a psychic vampire entombed in a shiny Throne.
The better comparison would be to compare him to the psykers that exist within the game. For Chaos it would be Ahriman. Now he's a pretty wicked psyker in his own right. Then you have Tigurius for the Ultramarines, Njal for the Wolves and Mephiston for the Blood Angels. If you want to count Daemons then I guess Fateweaver would be in there somewhere. A Tyranid Hive Tyrant would have to be considered too since he can use his powers to cripple a squad or make them run away in terror while being almost immune to enemy psykers because of Shadows in the Warp
Either way, Eldrad is out because his soul is currently lost in a Blackstone fortress fighting Slaanesh's demons...
Reivax26 wrote:Ok this comparison is rather silly to be honest. Magnus is the 2nd most powerful psychic entity in the universe right now behind Tzeentch. I know some people would want to bring up the Emperor still but lets be honest he's pretty much a psychic vampire entombed in a shiny Throne.
The better comparison would be to compare him to the psykers that exist within the game. For Chaos it would be Ahriman. Now he's a pretty wicked psyker in his own right. Then you have Tigurius for the Ultramarines, Njal for the Wolves and Mephiston for the Blood Angels. If you want to count Daemons then I guess Fateweaver would be in there somewhere. A Tyranid Hive Tyrant would have to be considered too since he can use his powers to cripple a squad or make them run away in terror while being almost immune to enemy psykers because of Shadows in the Warp
Either way, Eldrad is out because his soul is currently lost in a Blackstone fortress fighting Slaanesh's demons...
I hate the fact that you can even play Eldard when he is suppose to be dead. AFAIK he is the only named HQ who is technically "dead" that you can field.
Farseer Mael Dannan wrote:I hate the fact that you can even play Eldard when he is suppose to be dead. AFAIK he is the only named HQ who is technically "dead" that you can field.
Haha yeah. From a playing point of view, I quite like it, but from a fluff point of view it is kind of painful. Especially when you see Eldrad walking around with, say, an Alaitoc or Iyanden army.
Reivax26 wrote:Ok this comparison is rather silly to be honest. Magnus is the 2nd most powerful psychic entity in the universe right now behind Tzeentch. I know some people would want to bring up the Emperor still but lets be honest he's pretty much a psychic vampire entombed in a shiny Throne.
The better comparison would be to compare him to the psykers that exist within the game. For Chaos it would be Ahriman. Now he's a pretty wicked psyker in his own right. Then you have Tigurius for the Ultramarines, Njal for the Wolves and Mephiston for the Blood Angels. If you want to count Daemons then I guess Fateweaver would be in there somewhere. A Tyranid Hive Tyrant would have to be considered too since he can use his powers to cripple a squad or make them run away in terror while being almost immune to enemy psykers because of Shadows in the Warp
Either way, Eldrad is out because his soul is currently lost in a Blackstone fortress fighting Slaanesh's demons...
I hate the fact that you can even play Eldard when he is suppose to be dead. AFAIK he is the only named HQ who is technically "dead" that you can field.
Tycho is dead and you can play him too(2 different versions to boot)
But thats beside the point.
In game, Farseers(including Eldrad) are support Psykers.
One on One, just about any other psyker is going to give Eldrad a good spanking. GK Librarians do buffing better while also being more killy(and much more expensive)
We will have to wait till the Eldar get an update to see what Farseers become. I imagine they might end up with Level 3 psykers.
Since when did Eldrad confront Slaanesh and win? Last I heard, when he linked himself to the Blackstone, Slaanesh devoured him almost in an instant. Only multiple Spirit Stones barely gave him a chance at survival, assuming they can find a way to get his soul back from Slaanesh.
More importantly, mortals cannot directly confront gods. The Emperor could, because He's not mortal, but as long as He remains physically present on the material realm, He cannot directly confront the Powers.
I'd just like to point out that the Emperor is not a God. He is very much mortal; why do you think he's dying?
Iranna wrote:I'd just like to point out that the Emperor is not a God. He is very much mortal; why do you think he's dying?
Iranna.
He kind of is. He may be dying but if smaller fragments of him could just "respawn" without problem or hang around in the warp, I don't see how his current, much more powerful form would have problems with that. I don't know if god is too much but mortal is not enough.
Back to topic, it depends. Their powers are used differently.
In a stand up fight, Magnus easily. However Eldrad powers were never about fighting. He is not most powerful Warlock but Farseer.
I always considered the playable Eldrad to be a farseer who came into possesion of one of Eldrads soul stones, giving them access to some of his former potential. Giving the eldar dex a "master psyker" special character above a normal farseer, same as any army now with the 'special character unlock army theme' GW has been doing for the last few years.
Since when did Eldrad confront Slaanesh and win? Last I heard, when he linked himself to the Blackstone, Slaanesh devoured him almost in an instant. Only multiple Spirit Stones barely gave him a chance at survival, assuming they can find a way to get his soul back from Slaanesh. More importantly, mortals cannot directly confront gods. The Emperor could, because He's not mortal, but as long as He remains physically present on the material realm, He cannot directly confront the Powers.
I'd just like to point out that the Emperor is not a God. He is very much mortal; why do you think he's dying?
Iranna.
Just because you're immortal you can't be killed. Immortality and invincibility are two different things. The former just means you won't die by natural causes, but can be killed, the latter means you can't be killed, but can still die from natural causes. The Emperor's body was ravaged by Horus, and only the Throne keeps Him alive. He's immortal, even before He became Emperor, but He wasn't invincible. You can kill Him, provided you can get past His defenses. The only reason Horus could incapacitate Him was because the Emperor held back and Horus took advantage.
Well... Eldrad is dead, and dead people don't tend to be very good psykers, so Magnus wins by default.
Seriously though, Magnus is not only perhaps the second most powerful psyker in human history, he's also a daemon prince of the god of sorcery. It would give him a bit of an edge.
Durza wrote:Well... Eldrad is dead, and dead people don't tend to be very good psykers, so Magnus wins by default.
Seriously though, Magnus is not only perhaps the second most powerful psyker in human history, he's also a daemon prince of the god of sorcery. It would give him a bit of an edge.
And what of before? The Eldar players/fans are going to pin their arguments before Magnus became a Daemon Prince.
Grey Templar wrote:He would probably torture Eldrad into serving Tzeentch, and then turn him over to Slannesh after a little while just to see his face
Serving Tzeentch by starting a civil war between the Craftworlds and while Ulthwe's fleet is away, Abaddon and the Black Legion storm it. Only then when Eldrad is in darkest despair that he's turned over to Slaanesh. All the while he never realizes that Ulthwe is saved at the last minute by Imperial forces.
Tadashi wrote:Just because you're immortal doesn't mean you can't be killed. Immortality and invincibility are two different things. The former just means you won't die by natural causes, but can be killed, the latter means you can't be killed, but can still die from natural causes. The Emperor's body was ravaged by Horus, and only the Throne keeps Him alive. He's immortal, even before He became Emperor, but He wasn't invincible. You can kill Him, provided you can get past His defenses. The only reason Horus could incapacitate Him was because the Emperor held back and Horus took advantage.
Invincible: incapable of being conquered, defeated, or subdued.
Immortal: not mortal; not liable or subject to death; undying
You're argument is flawed. Immortal means literally not mortal, therefore cannot die. Cannot die of ANY CAUSE. If you're saying the Emperor is immortal, then he cannot die, yet only the throne is keeping him alive. Something he wouldn't need if he was immortal.
Source: dictionary.com and any other english dictionary in the world
Tadashi wrote:Just because you're immortal doesn't mean you can't be killed. Immortality and invincibility are two different things. The former just means you won't die by natural causes, but can be killed, the latter means you can't be killed, but can still die from natural causes. The Emperor's body was ravaged by Horus, and only the Throne keeps Him alive. He's immortal, even before He became Emperor, but He wasn't invincible. You can kill Him, provided you can get past His defenses. The only reason Horus could incapacitate Him was because the Emperor held back and Horus took advantage.
Invincible: incapable of being conquered, defeated, or subdued.
Immortal: not mortal; not liable or subject to death; undying
You're argument is flawed. Immortal means literally not mortal, therefore cannot die. Cannot die of ANY CAUSE. If you're saying the Emperor is immortal, then he cannot die, yet only the throne is keeping him alive. Something he wouldn't need if he was immortal.
Source: dictionary.com and any other english dictionary in the world
Fine. AGELESS. Pointless symantics...even the Chaos Powers consider the Emperor as an equal in the form of their greatest enemy.
Tadashi wrote:Just because you're immortal doesn't mean you can't be killed. Immortality and invincibility are two different things. The former just means you won't die by natural causes, but can be killed, the latter means you can't be killed, but can still die from natural causes. The Emperor's body was ravaged by Horus, and only the Throne keeps Him alive. He's immortal, even before He became Emperor, but He wasn't invincible. You can kill Him, provided you can get past His defenses. The only reason Horus could incapacitate Him was because the Emperor held back and Horus took advantage.
Invincible: incapable of being conquered, defeated, or subdued.
Immortal: not mortal; not liable or subject to death; undying
You're argument is flawed. Immortal means literally not mortal, therefore cannot die. Cannot die of ANY CAUSE. If you're saying the Emperor is immortal, then he cannot die, yet only the throne is keeping him alive. Something he wouldn't need if he was immortal.
Source: dictionary.com and any other english dictionary in the world
Actually we dont know if he is or not, his BODY is dieing, we know next to nothing about what will happen to his soul when the body goes, there are plenty of old theorys like the starchild, if that does turn out to be true, then the Emperor truelly is "immortal" in every sense of the word... kill the body (host) and his soul flits off to be re-born and come at you again.
People keep saying primarchs power level can't be compared due to them not being on the tabletop.......... Dragio beat down one an carved his mentors name into his heart also the primarch was a deamon prince an we know Draigos level on the table top. I know all primarchs are different but you have a base to make your guesses off.
Also Eldrad is trapped in the soul stones. So if he was to fight he would need to be brought back ........ since a warlock becomes a wraithseer when being brought back I wonder what badass thing Eldrad would become.
Tadashi wrote:Just because you're immortal doesn't mean you can't be killed. Immortality and invincibility are two different things. The former just means you won't die by natural causes, but can be killed, the latter means you can't be killed, but can still die from natural causes. The Emperor's body was ravaged by Horus, and only the Throne keeps Him alive. He's immortal, even before He became Emperor, but He wasn't invincible. You can kill Him, provided you can get past His defenses. The only reason Horus could incapacitate Him was because the Emperor held back and Horus took advantage.
Invincible: incapable of being conquered, defeated, or subdued.
Immortal: not mortal; not liable or subject to death; undying
You're argument is flawed. Immortal means literally not mortal, therefore cannot die. Cannot die of ANY CAUSE. If you're saying the Emperor is immortal, then he cannot die, yet only the throne is keeping him alive. Something he wouldn't need if he was immortal.
Source: dictionary.com and any other english dictionary in the world
Actually we dont know if he is or not, his BODY is dieing, we know next to nothing about what will happen to his soul when the body goes, there are plenty of old theorys like the starchild, if that does turn out to be true, then the Emperor truelly is "immortal" in every sense of the word... kill the body (host) and his soul flits off to be re-born and come at you again.
If that's all that will happen. A Lord of Change in the novel Eye of Terror notes that the Emperor was a worthy ally of Tzeentch, a title something usually attached to one of the other Powers. It also noted that the Emperor was a god in His own right, and the only thing that kept the Powers from manifesting directly in the mortal realm. At the end it also sought the 'death' of the Emperor, despite knowing that with the death of the Emperor's physical form He would enter the Warp and 'harmonize' the Human psyche by canceling out the four Powers as one and uniting into a single being.
Spoiler:
IN A LOFTY, secluded palace far off in the warp, a truly ancient Chi’khami’tzann Tsunoi nodded and blinked in admiration for the Emperor of mankind. The Chi’khami’tzann Tsunoi was one of the first ever to be created by the great Lord of Change, and was reckoned by some to be almost as wise and cunning as Tzeentch himself. He it was who had manipulated the young, inexperienced Great Inventor - and then discarded him. He acknowledged that the Emperor was a god in his own right, worthy to be an ally of Tzeentch himself, so great was his foresight, so subtle his ability to pinpoint cusps which, with the slightest of nudges, could deflect events on to another course. He had even utilised the forces of Chaos, to manoeuvre his actors into position. But the game was still afoot, and would be for millennia. The Emperor had manipulated Chaos but the greater daemon, in turn, had manipulated the Emperor. There were manipulations within manipulations, and only he who failed to see them all would lose.
The Emperor was a great lord, but he was shackled to the husk of his material form, kept alive by mortals who feared to lose their protector. Eventually their efforts would fail. The husk would die, and the Emperor would be released unfettered into the heavenly realms. Then the true war would begin. The Emperor would exert himself to cancel out the four Chaos powers and integrate them into a sane and harmonious whole, thereby harmonising the psyche of mankind. But the heavenly masters did not want to be so absorbed. What was sanity compared with the glorious insanity of the separate Chaos Gods, forever at war with one another? The ancient daemon was patient, as strategists must be. His ultimate aim was the death of the Emperor. To that end, he had set in train impulses which no one but he and blessed Tzeentch himself could see. In his lofty, secluded palace, the Chi’khami’tzann Tsunoi watched, and waited.
Funny, isn't it? The Powers don't want to become as one, but one of them, great Tzeentch himself and his servants, seeks to make it happen.
Nitros14 wrote:Eldrad doesn't have the God of Magic pouring power into him, whatever his natural talent might be.
Even without Tzeentch backing him up, Magnus' raw psychic might, as the Emperor's son, is far beyond Eldrad.
The Emperor's son aside, I agree. Magnus was chosen by Tzeentch to be his instrument. It would take a lot to impress the Great Sorcerer, certainly more than a effete witch unenlightened to Chaos could do.
Torsoaril wrote:People keep saying primarchs power level can't be compared due to them not being on the tabletop.......... Dragio beat down one an carved his mentors name into his heart also the primarch was a deamon prince an we know Draigos level on the table top. I know all primarchs are different but you have a base to make your guesses off.
Draigo was created to fight Daemons, trained to fight Daemons, equipped to fight Daemons, used to fighting Daemons and is the most powerful Grey Knight currently in existance. It's kinda like fighting Superman wearing a suit of kryptonite, engraving your bones with kryptonite wards, using a gun made of kryptonite to fire kryptonite bullets at Superman while trying to push him into a lake of liquid kryptonite. It's also exactly the thing that Eldrad could (and indeed would try to, based on his modus operandi) do to win: find ways to negate or lessen Magnus's power advantage.
Primarchs are individually more powerful than pretty much anything still alive in the fluff (depending on whether you consider the Emperor and/or the Chaos Gods "alive), but they're not without their individual weaknesses. They can be beaten.
Torsoaril wrote:People keep saying primarchs power level can't be compared due to them not being on the tabletop.......... Dragio beat down one an carved his mentors name into his heart also the primarch was a deamon prince an we know Draigos level on the table top. I know all primarchs are different but you have a base to make your guesses off.
Draigo was created to fight Daemons, trained to fight Daemons, equipped to fight Daemons, used to fighting Daemons and is the most powerful Grey Knight currently in existance. It's kinda like fighting Superman wearing a suit of kryptonite, engraving your bones with kryptonite wards, using a gun made of kryptonite to fire kryptonite bullets at Superman while trying to push him into a lake of liquid kryptonite. It's also exactly the thing that Eldrad could (and indeed would try to, based on his modus operandi) do to win: find ways to negate or lessen Magnus's power advantage.
Primarchs are individually more powerful than pretty much anything still alive in the fluff (depending on whether you consider the Emperor and/or the Chaos Gods "alive), but they're not without their individual weaknesses. They can be beaten.
Just because he can be beaten doesn't he will. Crimson King FTW.
Well, obviously the Emperor would kick both their butts. But who would the Emperor support, His own son, or a treacherous Eldar witch? His son obviously.
I think Eldrad is weaker than Magnus sometimes and other times he is more powerful. Mainly because Tzeentch doesn't like things to remain the same so is constantly messing with the strands of fate.
This being the case, Magnus doesn't always have his way with Magic so at times he may be weaker than Eldrad. At other times Magnus would overpower Eldrad with so much magic that Eldrad would not stand a chance. It's all based on whatever Tzeentch decides.
Tadashi wrote:Well, obviously the Emperor would kick both their butts. But who would the Emperor support, His own son, or a treacherous Eldar witch? His son obviously.
I find it odd that you call Eldrad treacherous but not Magnus. Eldrad tried to warn to Imperium of the impending Horus Heresy, Magnus is a Daemon Prince.
EDIT: Maybe I should have read Almightly Walrus's post before commenting.
Well, obviously the Emperor would kick both their butts. But who would the Emperor support, His own treacherous Daemon-Prince son, or an Eldar?
Fixed that for you
Magnus did what he did for his father and the Imperium, whereas that witch only seeks to manipulate the Imperium for the Eldar's benefit. IMO, the Emperor did meet Eldrad before He became Emperor, with the latter trying to dissuade the former. The man refused, the Eldar attacked, only to get their asses handed to them.
It is interesting to note that at the time that happened Eldrad was very very young for a farseer and had almost no power compared to the way he is now. Had he been as old then, as he is now, there is no way it would have gone down that way.
According to fluff the Eldar become immensely powerful the older they get. Seeing as Eldrad is the most powerful Seer the Eldar have ever seen since the fall, I think it's safe to assume he would not have lost that battle so easily if at all.
Roadkill Zombie wrote:It is interesting to note that at the time that happened Eldrad was very very young for a farseer and had almost no power compared to the way he is now. Had he been as old then, as he is now, there is no way it would have gone down that way.
According to fluff the Eldar become immensely powerful the older they get. Seeing as Eldrad is the most powerful Seer the Eldar have ever seen since the fall, I think it's safe to assume he would not have lost that battle so easily if at all.
Wait, did you just claim that Eldrad would win against the Emperor? As in the guy who went head to head with the four Chaos Gods and won? Eldrad got mind!"#¤ed by ONE of them, the Emperor held off all four. No contest, Emperor wins.
Roadkill Zombie wrote:It is interesting to note that at the time that happened Eldrad was very very young for a farseer and had almost no power compared to the way he is now. Had he been as old then, as he is now, there is no way it would have gone down that way.
According to fluff the Eldar become immensely powerful the older they get. Seeing as Eldrad is the most powerful Seer the Eldar have ever seen since the fall, I think it's safe to assume he would not have lost that battle so easily if at all.
Wait, did you just claim that Eldrad would win against the Emperor? As in the guy who went head to head with the four Chaos Gods and won? Eldrad got mind!"#¤ed by ONE of them, the Emperor held off all four. No contest, Emperor wins.
He's gone over the edge, Walrus. He's been claiming that for a while now. Apparently, he cannot or refuses to see the truth.
Even after the Fall of the Eldar, Slaanesh just turned his/her/its back on the Eldar and the material realm. The only time the Powers started taking a serious interest in mortals was during and after the rise of the Emperor. He was the only one who ever truly posed a threat to them. And before you contradict us, Roadkill-san, let me tell you this: if Eldrad really is more powerful than the Emperor and posed a greater threat to the Powers, why don't they direct Abaddon and the others to Ulthwe. Its much closer than Terra to the Eye. Yet all this time, the Powers have directed their servants to break the Cadian Gate, get to Terra, and unplug the Throne. Why? Because the Emperor is still a greater power and threat. It took all four Powers manifesting through Horus to incapacitate the Emperor. It only took a small aspect of Slaanesh to defeat Eldrad. Have you seen my point yet?
Roadkill Zombie wrote:I think Eldrad is weaker than Magnus sometimes and other times he is more powerful. Mainly because Tzeentch doesn't like things to remain the same so is constantly messing with the strands of fate.
This being the case, Magnus doesn't always have his way with Magic so at times he may be weaker than Eldrad. At other times Magnus would overpower Eldrad with so much magic that Eldrad would not stand a chance. It's all based on whatever Tzeentch decides.
Tzeentch does not control psychic powers.
Though certainly he would like the galaxy to believe he does.
Roadkill Zombie wrote:I think Eldrad is weaker than Magnus sometimes and other times he is more powerful. Mainly because Tzeentch doesn't like things to remain the same so is constantly messing with the strands of fate.
This being the case, Magnus doesn't always have his way with Magic so at times he may be weaker than Eldrad. At other times Magnus would overpower Eldrad with so much magic that Eldrad would not stand a chance. It's all based on whatever Tzeentch decides.
Tzeentch does not control psychic powers.
Though certainly he would like the galaxy to believe he does.
No, I didn't mean it that way. I guess I could have explained it better. I meant he does control Magnus but Magnus doesn't know it. He engineers fate so Magnus doesn't get his way all the time but sometimes does. This makes Magnus not as reliable in his power levels as Eldrad would be. So Magnus is more random, depending on what he's got going on to try to increase his power.
Eldrad ran in fear from a pissed off Fulgrim. The same Fulgrim who was mentally influenced by a Greater Daemon (Who can control a planet telepathically). The same Greater Daemon who was mentally tortured and toyed with by Lorgar. The same Lorgar who was mentally dominated by Magnus the Red... From the other side of the galaxy.
In terms of finesse, Eldrad is arguably better psychically than Magnus, but Magnus's raw power edge is enormous. The strength to make all tactics useless. That is strength absolute.
And really, people are exagerrating how "unskilled" Magnus is psychically. He can peer into the future, both in battle, and long-term to an extent. He can slow down or halt the passage of time. He can telepathically dominate Lorgar, probably the second most psychically powerful Primarch, from the other side of the damn galaxy, while using his power to manifest a psychic avatar on Lorgar's ship. He can ravage the surface of a world by tearing down the boundaries of the veil, and creating devastating Earthquakes and storms across the surface. He has enough telekinetic finesse to shatter a pyramid of glass, then skewer Space Marines with individual shards of it by the hundreds. He can transmute an ocean into acid that can kill Space Marines and Custodians on contact. He can also heal his own wounds.
Let's be real here. How exactly does anyone propose Eldrad deal with all of that?
Void__Dragon wrote:Eldrad ran in fear from a pissed off Fulgrim. The same Fulgrim who was mentally influenced by a Greater Daemon (Who can control a planet telepathically). The same Greater Daemon who was mentally tortured and toyed with by Lorgar. The same Lorgar who was mentally dominated by Magnus the Red... From the other side of the galaxy.
In terms of finesse, Eldrad is arguably better psychically than Magnus, but Magnus's raw power edge is enormous. The strength to make all tactics useless. That is strength absolute.
And really, people are exagerrating how "unskilled" Magnus is psychically. He can peer into the future, both in battle, and long-term to an extent. He can slow down or halt the passage of time. He can telepathically dominate Lorgar, probably the second most psychically powerful Primarch, from the other side of the damn galaxy, while using his power to manifest a psychic avatar on Lorgar's ship. He can ravage the surface of a world by tearing down the boundaries of the veil, and creating devastating Earthquakes and storms across the surface. He has enough telekinetic finesse to shatter a pyramid of glass, then skewer Space Marines with individual shards of it by the hundreds. He can transmute an ocean into acid that can kill Space Marines and Custodians on contact. He can also heal his own wounds.
Let's be real here. How exactly does anyone propose Eldrad deal with all of that?
Roadkill Zombie thinks Eldrad can 'just as planned' Magnus. Apparently. he forgets Magnus had tutelage from two masters of 'just as planed': the Emperor and Tzeentch.
The universe of 40k is a giant "Just as planned!" pileup. Eldrad's come out of it still alive, despite having vastly inferior military forces and possibly inferior raw psychic strength, by virtue of...wait for it...knowing when to turn tail and run like hell.
For the record: Whether Magnus would beat Eldrad in a fair fight is immaterial, by virtue of the fact that if the possibility existed Eldrad would work to avert it with every ounce of power he possessed, because if Tzeentch loses Magnus it's a minor setback (he's still got unnumbered Greater Daemons, who according to some sources (including Angron's stats) surpass the Daemon Primarchs in power), whereas if the Eldar lose Eldrad they can't replace him easily. It's not a matter of martial glory, honor, pansy-ass Eldar running from yet another fight, it's a matter of survival. Eldrad's going to avoid any fight he stands any chance of losing, because he can't afford to lose, while most of his foes can. There are thousands upon thousands of powerful Chaos Sorcerers lining up, just waiting for Tzeentch to get bored of Magnus and put them in his place; there isn't anyone standing behind Eldrad to seamlessly pick up his place if he falls, and he knows it.
AnomanderRake wrote:The universe of 40k is a giant "Just as planned!" pileup. Eldrad's come out of it still alive, despite having vastly inferior military forces and possibly inferior raw psychic strength, by virtue of...wait for it...knowing when to turn tail and run like hell.
For the record: Whether Magnus would beat Eldrad in a fair fight is immaterial, by virtue of the fact that if the possibility existed Eldrad would work to avert it with every ounce of power he possessed, because if Tzeentch loses Magnus it's a minor setback (he's still got unnumbered Greater Daemons, who according to some sources (including Angron's stats) surpass the Daemon Primarchs in power), whereas if the Eldar lose Eldrad they can't replace him easily. It's not a matter of martial glory, honor, pansy-ass Eldar running from yet another fight, it's a matter of survival. Eldrad's going to avoid any fight he stands any chance of losing, because he can't afford to lose, while most of his foes can. There are thousands upon thousands of powerful Chaos Sorcerers lining up, just waiting for Tzeentch to get bored of Magnus and put them in his place; there isn't anyone standing behind Eldrad to seamlessly pick up his place if he falls, and he knows it.
Isn't Eldrad dead and being feasted on by Slaneesh in the fluff right now?
Edit- Also, to be fair to Eldrad, IIRC he was just over 10,000 years old circa 999.M41, meaning that during the events of the Horus Heresy, he would have been at most just a few decades to centuries old; still barely a baby in Eldar terms. In his prime, he'd be astronomically more powerful than he was when he met with Fulgrim.
Edit- Also, to be fair to Eldrad, IIRC he was just over 10,000 years old circa 999.M41, meaning that during the events of the Horus Heresy, he would have been at most just a few decades to centuries old; still barely a baby in Eldar terms. In his prime, he'd be astronomically more powerful than he was when he met with Fulgrim.
No, he's older than that. The witch knew the Emperor before He became the Emperor. He would have been centuries old at least by the time he met Fulgrim. Doesn't matter. As far as I'm concerned, the witch tried at some point to stop/dissuade the Emperor from His plan, and got his butt kicked in the process. And even if he is stronger than he was ten thousand years ago, the Powers still obviously consider him and the rest of the Eldar as a sideshow - the Emperor still remains their greatest enemy.
AnomanderRake wrote:The universe of 40k is a giant "Just as planned!" pileup. Eldrad's come out of it still alive, despite having vastly inferior military forces and possibly inferior raw psychic strength, by virtue of...wait for it...knowing when to turn tail and run like hell.
I don't think becoming a toy of Slaanesh counts as alive at all. Even if his Spirit Stones are still active, how are the Eldar going to find the rest of him? I doubt if they'd leap into the Warp and confront Slaanesh directly just to do that. Ulthwe might, but the other Craftworlds certainly won't. Alaitoc, Biel-Tan, and Iyanden have other matters to attend to.
Torsoaril: You quoted something from the book of great evil that was written by "He Who Shall Not Be Named". None of the fluff in that despicable tome should have ever seen the light of day let alone been quoted by anyone at anytime ever.
The reality of it is this: Mortarion would rip Draigo apart. Hell he would have done it before he was granted even more power by Nurgle. Anyone who actually believes Draigo could do that is seriously kidding themselves.
What I want to see is this fight: Draigo vs Angron. Lets see how far old Draigo gets when he faces a Daemon Primarch thats been blessed by Khorne.
If I remember the story correctly during the first Battle for Armageddon Angron and 8 Bloodthirsters took on 100 Grey Knights in Terminator armor and out of all of them only 2 lived. So how far do you think Draigo by himself is actually going to get?
riplikash wrote:Again, that isn't to say Eldrad is below Magnus. I think is probably far more capable of making predictions and commanding in the long run. (for example, I doubt he would have made the foolish mistake Magnus did in attempting to warn the Emperor) But in terms of pure power he isn't a behemoth like Magnus was/is.
He did make the foolish mistake of trying to reason with Fulgrim.
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Reivax26 wrote:Torsoaril: You quoted something from the book of great evil that was written by "He Who Shall Not Be Named". None of the fluff in that despicable tome should have ever seen the light of day let alone been quoted by anyone at anytime ever.
The reality of it is this: Mortarion would rip Draigo apart. Hell he would have done it before he was granted even more power by Nurgle. Anyone who actually believes Draigo could do that is seriously kidding themselves.
What I want to see is this fight: Draigo vs Angron. Lets see how far old Draigo gets when he faces a Daemon Primarch thats been blessed by Khorne.
If I remember the story correctly during the first Battle for Armageddon Angron and 8 Bloodthirsters took on 100 Grey Knights in Terminator armor and out of all of them only 2 lived. So how far do you think Draigo by himself is actually going to get?
Well, Draigo supposedly faced a Bloodthirster in the Warp barehanded, crushed it, and made himself a new sword out of its axe with his mind. If we take Ward's hyperbole at face value, Draigo would eat Angron for lunch, and pick his teeth clean with the butcher's nails.
riplikash wrote:Again, that isn't to say Eldrad is below Magnus. I think is probably far more capable of making predictions and commanding in the long run. (for example, I doubt he would have made the foolish mistake Magnus did in attempting to warn the Emperor) But in terms of pure power he isn't a behemoth like Magnus was/is.
He did make the foolish mistake of trying to reason with Fulgrim.
Which might have gone well had Eldrad acted reasonably and warned Fulgrim that the sword was influencing his mind. But no, he had to go medieval. What happened next? Fulgrim destroyed an Avatar, ripped the heart out of a Wraithlord, and sent Eldrad running for his life back into the Webway. Not to mention an entire Eldar warhost getting butchered by the Emperor's Children, and every Maiden World in the sector burnt to ashes.
Suggesting that Fulgrim's utterly perfect mind could be influence by something as minor as a Warp Xeno would have been the single stupidest thing to do to a raging narcissist like Fulgrim.
Really... I am starting to doubt Eldrad's finesse as a psyker being greater than Magnus's as well. In terms of strictly divination, sure, but in all other things, like telepathy for example? Magnus has shown far greater versatility.
Void__Dragon wrote:Suggesting that Fulgrim's utterly perfect mind could be influence by something as minor as a Warp Xeno would have been the single stupidest thing to do to a raging narcissist like Fulgrim.
Then do it diplomatically. Obviously you don't go direct, but there should have been other means to inform Fulgrim that the sword is malign than going medieval. That's the reason Humans and the Imperium don't trust the Eldar. The Eldar automatically assume Humans won't understand, and act in a way that gives them no right to complain when things don't go the way they planned because of Human interference.
No, the reason the Imperium doesn't trust the Eldar is because the Eldar are seen as treacherous. They help the Imperium defeat a foe and then turn on the survivors of the battle, trying to kill them too.
And as far as Eldrad goes, again...and get this through your heads...HE WAS A BABY PSYCHICALLY when the Heresy happened. He isn't now. It's like trying to claim Steven Hawking is stupid because he couldn't do Calculus at the age of 5. Seriously guys, enough with the elitist fanboyism about how uber the Imperium is.
There isn't enough fluff about this subject to decide either way who is more powerful. Until they flesh out Eldrad more in the backstory, we will never know. I have a feeling we will find out more about it when the new Eldar codex comes out.
And as far as Eldrad goes, again...and get this through your heads...HE WAS A BABY PSYCHICALLY when the Heresy happened. He isn't now.
Even if that's true, the Powers still consider him and the Eldar as just a sideshow compared to the Emperor and the Imperium. Ulthwe is located around the Cadian Gate, right? If Eldrad really is as powerful and such a threat as you suggest - after all, he should have surpassed Magnus by now and since Magnus was second only to the Emperor, and as such Eldrad should have approached the old man's level - they'd have directed Abaddon and Co. to strike Ulthwe already. But they didn't. I'm not saying Ulthwe doesn't get attacked, but the main thrust of the Forces of Chaos is through the Cadian Gate, across Segmentum Obscuris and Segmentum Solar, to Terra and the Golden Throne. So obviously, Eldrad is/was just a sideshow to the Powers.
No, you keep saying the Eldar are just a sideshow to Chaos. Show me the source.
And remember that Chaos doesn't want to kill every last human in existence. They would rather bend the will of the human race to Chaos. They are not concerned with doing that to the Eldar because they already did. That's how Slaanesh was created.
Now they are trying to do it to Mankind too.
Now since Eldrad can see the future, you don't think he could re-direct the future so Abbadon and the forces of Chaos would leave Ulthwe alone and go after someone else instead? (besides, he already punked Abbadon ). It's standard practice for him. He does that to the other races of the galaxy all the time. Including and especially the Imperium.
Also, have you heard of the battle for Haran?...yeah...that's pretty much what your talking about...Chaos going after Eldar...why? to get into undamaged parts of the Webway so they can reach every world in the Galaxy that it is connected to. Eldrad helped defeat that giant invasion through divining what Chaos was going to do.
Same thing with the Eye of Terror campaign. The only reason Cadia still exists is because Eldrad is fighting with his spirit inside a Talisman of Vaul...err...Blackstone Fortress. If he hadn't sacrificed his body to do psychic battle with Slaanesh inside that thing it would have fired on Cadia and destroyed it just like other ones did to Fularis II and the Tarantis Star, killing every living thing in the system. To fight directly with a Chaos God and still live is a pretty potent thing for an individual to do. You don't see Magnus doing that.
He is still alive because not all of his waystones that he fragmented his consiousness into have gone out. They only do that when someone's soul ceases to exist. And a few of his still burn.
Now since Eldrad can see the future, you don't think he could re-direct the future so Abbadon and the forces of Chaos would leave Ulthwe alone and go after someone else instead? (besides, he already punked Abbadon ). It's standard practice for him. He does that to the other races of the galaxy all the time. Including and especially the Imperium.
Thanks for proving my point. The simple fact that Eldrad could do it means that Tzeentch hasn't seen fit to turn all his attention on Eldrad. Unless, of course, you claim Eldrad is better at manipulation than Tzeentch?
Same thing with the Eye of Terror campaign. The only reason Cadia still exists is because Eldrad is fighting with his spirit inside a Talisman of Vaul...err...Blackstone Fortress. If he hadn't sacrificed his body to do psychic battle with Slaanesh inside that thing it would have fired on Cadia and destroyed it just like other ones did to Fularis II and the Tarantis Star, killing every living thing in the system.
Yeah...but you're forgetting one thing: Cadia is sacred to the Word Bearers Legion, as that world was where Lorgar's Pilgrimage ended, the so-called 'World Where Gods And Mortals Meet'. For all Abaddon's faults, he's not going to risk the Word Bearer's loyalty and support by destroying Cadia.
To fight directly with a Chaos God and still live is a pretty potent thing for an individual to do. You don't see Magnus doing that.
He is still alive because not all of his waystones that he fragmented his consiousness into have gone out. They only do that when someone's soul ceases to exist. And a few of his still burn.
I saw Magnus' father do that. The Powers had all but manifested physically through Horus, but the old man still blew them back and obliterate Horus in the process. And it was all four. Not once before and never again after the Horus Heresy had all four Powers of Chaos stop the Great Game and focus on a single person. Not even Eldrad made them do it. Magnus IS and remains the Emperor's son. Therefore, he's stronger and more powerful than Eldrad, seeing as the Emperor ultimately intended to have Magnus seize control of the Webway via the Golden Throne (this last part is my own conjecture - the Golden Throne was probably a 'master control' of sorts once completed, allowing its user to lockdown, extend, open, repair, and control the Webway from Terra).
Void__Dragon wrote:Suggesting that Fulgrim's utterly perfect mind could be influence by something as minor as a Warp Xeno would have been the single stupidest thing to do to a raging narcissist like Fulgrim.
Really... I am starting to doubt Eldrad's finesse as a psyker being greater than Magnus's as well. In terms of strictly divination, sure, but in all other things, like telepathy for example? Magnus has shown far greater versatility.
Fulgrim didn't think he was perfect; that's a misinterpretation of his character. His Primarch vice was the pursuit of perfection, not an actual belief that he was perfect.
Honestly, Magnus is a better example of a character who genuinely believed that he was perfect and infallible.
To use High School cliches as metaphors, Fulgrim is the douchebag jock who's really popular and gets all the bitches. He prances around acting like he's the gak, and he bullies all the nerds and socially awkward kids. But deep down, his douche-baggery is actually his attempt to hide the fact that he suffers from severe self-esteem issues, self-esteem issues that he possesses because his parents are going through a divorce and he knows that he's dumb as a brick.
Magnus is the hyper-intelligent exchange student from China who has zero people skills and gets bullied and treated like gak constantly. The other kids treat him like a pariah because his talents are so unique that they set him apart from the rest of them. In order to keep his sanity, the boy takes comfort in the fact that he's a billion times smarter than all of his peers. Over time he embraces this superiority and becomes arrogant and self-absorbed and despises everyone around him because of how they treated him.
That's basically the two characters in a nut-shell. Fulgrim surrounds himself with perfection because deep down he wants to be perfect but knows that he isn't.
Magnus is a narcissist because he's been smarter than everyone around him since forever, and the only way he can justify their dislike of him is by believing that they're all morons who don't understand his superiority.
Void__Dragon wrote:Suggesting that Fulgrim's utterly perfect mind could be influence by something as minor as a Warp Xeno would have been the single stupidest thing to do to a raging narcissist like Fulgrim.
Really... I am starting to doubt Eldrad's finesse as a psyker being greater than Magnus's as well. In terms of strictly divination, sure, but in all other things, like telepathy for example? Magnus has shown far greater versatility.
Fulgrim didn't think he was perfect; that's a misinterpretation of his character. His Primarch vice was the pursuit of perfection, not an actual belief that he was perfect.
Honestly, if any of the Primarchs genuinely thought they were perfect, it would be Magnus.
And Horus to a certain extent. But can you blame the two? Both were the Emperor's finest students: Magnus in psychic brilliance, and Horus as a leader.
Horus is kind of a frustrating character to read, mainly because he's been inconsistently written. I don't really think he suffers from narcicism nor illusions of grandeur (pre-fall to Chaos anyway). If he had genuinely believed that he was perfect and could do no wrong, he wouldn't have been so stressed out as Warmaster. There were several points in his time as the Man that he doubted his ability to succeed, with the Interex situation being the biggest clue to that. Initially, Horus was willing to die rather than make war on the Interex. Even after Erebus set-off the war between them, and the Interex had killed off many of the Luna Wolves, Horus felt that the meltdown between the Interex and the Luna Wolves was his fault, and at first he was still willing to sit down and try to talk things out. Someone with a perfectionist complex would not have felt that way, especially considering that, as Warmaster, he could have chosen to destroy the Interex right from the beginning, and no one would have censured him for it.
So I don't really think Horus suffered from the same thing Magnus suffers from. He was written in the first two books to be a very empathetic character who, while possessing arrogance, still had doubts about himself. It wasn't until False Gods that he became a murderous, narcissistic ass. A really extreme character change there, I think McNeil handled his fall very poorly.
Thanks for proving my point. The simple fact that Eldrad could do it means that Tzeentch hasn't seen fit to turn all his attention on Eldrad. Unless, of course, you claim Eldrad is better at manipulation than Tzeentch?
Yeah...but you're forgetting one thing: Cadia is sacred to the Word Bearers Legion, as that world was where Lorgar's Pilgrimage ended, the so-called 'World Where Gods And Mortals Meet'. For all Abaddon's faults, he's not going to risk the Word Bearer's loyalty and support by destroying Cadia.
This thread should be dead by now...
Tadashi, I don't even pretend to understand your first point. How is saying that Eldrad can manipulate commanders or high ranking officials of other races to better suit Eldar needs equivalent to claiming he's better than Tzeentch at manipulation? And I thought Slaanesh was the only one interested in Eldar and DE... Prove me wrong here by all means.
As for Cadia, do you have a source saying Abbadon wouldn't have destroyed Cadia using the Blackstone fortress?
Code Eldar, P51:" Eldrad lead a foray into Abbadon's greatest weapon ship: ... a Blackstone fortress poised to destroy the Human world of Cadia"
Tadashi, I don't even pretend to understand your first point. How is saying that Eldrad can manipulate commanders or high ranking officials of other races to better suit Eldar needs equivalent to claiming he's better than Tzeentch at manipulation? And I thought Slaanesh was the only one interested in Eldar and DE... Prove me wrong here by all means.
My point was that even if Eldrad is stronger now than he was then, he still wasn't strong enough to warrant the complete and undivided attention of the four Powers.
As for Cadia, do you have a source saying Abbadon wouldn't have destroyed Cadia using the Blackstone fortress?
Code Eldar, P51:" Eldrad lead a foray into Abbadon's greatest weapon ship: ... a Blackstone fortress poised to destroy the Human world of Cadia"
I grafted the information from the Horus Heresy novels with the fluff of the 13th Black Crusade. Cadia is sacred to the Word Bearers due to the fact that's where Lorgar's Pilgrimage ended. Destroy it, and you'll piss the Word Bearers off seriously. Not even Abaddon would be stupid enough to alienate the largest of the Traitor Legions just because he was irritated at Cadia's stubborn resistance.
Tadashi wrote:
My point was that even if Eldrad is stronger now than he was then, he still wasn't strong enough to warrant the complete and undivided attention of the four Powers.
I grafted the information from the Horus Heresy novels with the fluff of the 13th Black Crusade. Cadia is sacred to the Word Bearers due to the fact that's where Lorgar's Pilgrimage ended. Destroy it, and you'll piss the Word Bearers off seriously. Not even Abaddon would be stupid enough to alienate the largest of the Traitor Legions just because he was irritated at Cadia's stubborn resistance.
And who got the attention of the UNDIVIDED chaos powers? Certainly not Magnus as you persist to say he was Tzeentch's favourite. Maybe the Emperor, but I think everyone agrees that the Emperor is stronger than Eldrad...
And the codices are more cannon than BL, even if GW has stated that BL books are somewhat cannon, codices>novels. If grafting information is cannon, then a guardian squad leader has access to direswords and biting blades according to Eldar Prophecy /sarcasm
And the codices are more cannon than BL, even if GW has stated that BL books are somewhat cannon, codices>novels. If grafting information is cannon, then a guardian squad leader has access to direswords and biting blades according to Eldar Prophecy /sarcasm
On the contrary, I am certain GW said the HH novels were the new source of canon for the Horus Heresy.
Roadkill Zombie wrote:
Now since Eldrad can see the future, you don't think he could re-direct the future so Abbadon and the forces of Chaos would leave Ulthwe alone and go after someone else instead? (besides, he already punked Abbadon ). It's standard practice for him. He does that to the other races of the galaxy all the time. Including and especially the Imperium.
Yeah, just like he saw that the Prophet of the Night Lords will bring the wrath of the Chaos Legions upon Ulthwe, tried his hardest to stop it, and failed. Ulthwe is doomed.
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Lord Rogukiel wrote:And the codices are more cannon than BL, even if GW has stated that BL books are somewhat cannon, codices>novels. If grafting information is cannon, then a guardian squad leader has access to direswords and biting blades according to Eldar Prophecy /sarcasm
The HH novels are touted as the "definitive" re-telling of these events, and there is no canon hierarchy for 40K.
riplikash wrote:Another thing in Magnuses favor is that Eldrad can be represented on the tabletop, whereas primarchs generally considered not appropriate for tabletop scale combat.
Four of the Primarchs (including Magnus) were made available for one of the earlier editions of Epic in their daemon prince forms. So that's not entirely true. I think that it would be more accurate to say that the fluff has been changed to say that they don't visit battlefields anymore (with the exception of Angron), so GW hasn't bothered to put them on the tabletop since their one appearance.
BlaxicanX wrote:Fulgrim didn't think he was perfect; that's a misinterpretation of his character.
Misinterpret these. *grabs crotch*
While you are largely correct in your assessment of the differences between Magnus and Fulgrim (Magnus is indeed the most arrogant Primarch before his fall), Fulgrim still reacted badly when his own "perfection" was questioned, either directly or indirectly, threatening to kill Fabius Bile for the treason of suggesting his Legion could be improved, as well as eventually killing a human sculptor for the crime of pointing out a flaw in Fulgrim's own sculpting (The lack of flaws, lol), he grew incredibly butthurt when Ferrus Manus beat him in the race to kill an enemy commander, really, Fulgrim reacted badly to those questioning anything he said or did. He certainly wouldn't stand for an alien to do so. And he didn't.
BlaxicanX wrote:Fulgrim didn't think he was perfect; that's a misinterpretation of his character.
Misinterpret these. *grabs crotch*
While you are largely correct in your assessment of the differences between Magnus and Fulgrim (Magnus is indeed the most arrogant Primarch before his fall), Fulgrim still reacted badly when his own "perfection" was questioned, either directly or indirectly, threatening to kill Fabius Bile for the treason of suggesting his Legion could be improved, as well as eventually killing a human sculptor for the crime of pointing out a flaw in Fulgrim's own sculpting (The lack of flaws, lol), he grew incredibly butthurt when Ferrus Manus beat him in the race to kill an enemy commander, really, Fulgrim reacted badly to those questioning anything he said or did. He certainly wouldn't stand for an alien to do so. And he didn't.
The threat of killing Fabius Bile was only unusual in that he didn't do it though. Pretty much any primarch would have killed anyone who tried to improve on the Emperor's designs. Plus, being butthurt is an amazingly common occurrence for the primarchs (see Guilliman and Alpharius, the Lion and the Wolf, Perturabo and Dorn...)
