I've thinking about it. With technology things get smaller. So why is power armor so bulky? It seems like man would have found something more advanced by now. Anyhow gotta go, sgt is man lol


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Mad*

it exists in the fluff but its more akin to an aricifer type used as oposed to the astartes mass produced armour (which is then heavily personlised over the centuries), but improving an already holy tech... big no no, the best way (that i see) the mechanicus works is sideways shuffles, so rather than invent a new power armour that is better, just strap some less old stuff to some even less ...older stuff.

It's kinda like asking why an aircraft carrier isn't smaller.

It's the size it needs to be to provide the functionality it does.

Bulky works better for models, not logic.

also, technology has been lost for 100's if not 1000's of years. A way to see it would be: before human civilization fell apart and before the great crusade = Rome (running water, great health care, efficient road and army, high literacy rates) and 40k time= medieval (forgotten stuff, dark, illiterate, confusion, alot of war, great reliance on religion and the inquisition).
Also advancements in tech are stored in Standard Template Constructs and these have been lost and any found are often damaged or destroyed by the Inquisition as heretic tools (see Gaunt's Ghosts first novel)


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kshaw2000 wrote:Bulky works better for models, not logic.

LOL

Brother Thomas wrote:I've thinking about it. With technology things get smaller. So why is power armor so bulky? It seems like man would have found something more advanced by now. Anyhow gotta go, sgt is man lol


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Mad*

Because the Adeptus Astartes are huge friggin' guys.

It's as bulky as it is to provide thick layers of armour to protect the user.

Brother Thomas wrote:I've thinking about it. With technology things get smaller. So why is power armor so bulky? It seems like man would have found something more advanced by now. Anyhow gotta go, sgt is man lol

It's not that power armour itself is bulky. Look at the Angel-pattern armour employed by the Sisters of Battle. Same armour protection as the Marine variant. The Codex: Angels of Death describes the thickness of Marine armour plating as "up to an inch".

Something to keep in mind is that many suits of power armour, including those of the Space Marines and some Inquisitors, also incorporate a large array of additional subsystems that are not part of the basic design but simply useful additions crammed into it. For example, the Marine armour comes with drug dispensers and an automated medi-suite with lifesign monitor, a waste recycler, gravitic dampeners, and advanced strength augmentation, or the auto-reactive motor construct in the shoulder pauldrons. All this on top of a Marine's already impressive build, which is probably to blame the most.

Exactly that^

Space Marines are big guys(7-8ft) and need big armor.


The armor itself also has lots of internal systems along with the actual Ceramite plates.

Lets assume 3 inches of Ceramite(rather conservative IMO)

Then we also have the Fibro-muscles and servos that power the armor, plus whatever padding there is.

Thats probably a good six inches of thickness.


So we basically make the Marine a good foot wider then he actually is.

Then we have the backpack which houses the power plant and various medical systems. The helmet contains all the communication systems(capable of reacing ships in orbit or accross continants)


When you think about some of whats in the fluff, 40k has alot of miniaturization. Dreadnoughts have fething Fusion generators powering their systems. A Fusion power plant that's about the same size of a Semi-truck's engine block. That's nice and compact.

The lasgun is an amazing piece of technology. It has compact batteries that can put out Terawatts of power(with each shot)

And said battery pack can absorb this power from direct sunlight or heat. Thats efficiency.

The Mechanicum is crazy, banning new and certain old ideas.

There is no way its 3 inches thick, 1 inch at best. But everything else yall are saying makes good sense

Badazz, dude. I like that comparison

Also advancements in tech are stored in Standard Template Constructs and these have been lost and any found are often damaged or destroyed by the Inquisition as heretic tools (see Gaunt's Ghosts first novel)

The information inside STC are not advancements. They are older tech that can provide improvements. The Inquisition does not veiw STCs as heresy. It's quite the opposite.

The part of the Gaunts Ghost novel you are refering to... the Iron Men story?

That's not really an STC, it's a device from the golden age that mass produces Iron Men (Or the robots from I, Robot).

STCs do not manufacture, they explain how to manufacture. At least in it's more basic def.

STC could also mean a certain make or model. A Rhino is an STC. It follows a Standard Template of Construction. It doe not however explain how to continue to manufacture itself.

It's because the people inside it are huge. I think it might actually be too small. Every time I see the cutaway semantic, I think there is no way you can fit a guy in that.

DeffDred wrote:

Also advancements in tech are stored in Standard Template Constructs and these have been lost and any found are often damaged or destroyed by the Inquisition as heretic tools (see Gaunt's Ghosts first novel)

The information inside STC are not advancements. They are older tech that can provide improvements. The Inquisition does not veiw STCs as heresy. It's quite the opposite.

The part of the Gaunts Ghost novel you are refering to... the Iron Men story?

That's not really an STC, it's a device from the golden age that mass produces Iron Men (Or the robots from I, Robot).

STCs do not manufacture, they explain how to manufacture. At least in it's more basic def.

STC could also mean a certain make or model. A Rhino is an STC. It follows a Standard Template of Construction. It doe not however explain how to continue to manufacture itself.

That was still an STC.

STCs were often hooked up to a nano-replicator machine that could make what you wanted.


STC is also used in universe to refer to hard copy blueprint outs from an STC machine.

Indeed, STC is a catch all term used for anything from single-purpose manufacturing devices, plans/blueprints for devices, instructions for manufacturing techniques, fragments of data for lost devices all the way up to the holy grail of a fully functioning STC database and omni-factory.

I would define STC as follows.

1: Noun: Database containing the entire wealth of Mankind's technological and scientific knowledge. May or may not be linked to a production facility.

2: Noun: Blueprint of a specific technology or object. "The STC for the Mk3 Plasma gun was found on planet XM-3085 and is currently being used on Forge World Terinthus"


So there are STCs and there are STCs. It can refer to the actual database of knowledge or a specific schematic for something(like a Plasma gun)

Here is a somewhat longer description quoted from a White Dwarf article.

I don't find it exaggerately bulky. Even something like the standard Astartes power armor would require insane advances in miniaturization.

Besides, compared to other mechanized armour sets in the game, it's quite small and efficient. I mean, It could be even bulkier (Tau Crisis Suit) or clumsier (Ork Mega-Armour).

Because they look badass.

Because in 40k, there is no apple, they went with PC long ago...

Also, I used to dislike these sorts of threads, but Brother Thomas, everytime you start a new one lately the responses have been great for learning new fluff!

I wish i was a space marine. Lol if the us marines ever asks for volunteers for super soldiers ill do it

I see it that the armour has to be somewhat bulky to accommodate the required amount of materials as armour plating. Terminator even more so since it's supposed to be made of what is pretty much star ship hull plating.

Look at the weapons of the imperium of man, in order from highest AP to lowest AP. Go down the list, starting with the worst AP of them all, the humble lasgun. Stop when you reach AP3.
You'll notice you've stopped at Krak missiles. Power armor requires anti-tank weaponry to destroy.

So, brother thomas- you're down for a nonstop existence of warfare, of watching your family around you age and die while you live to continue war, and would enjoy the monotony of the daily rituals to prevent the ennui and sheer boredom of a 200+ year old man from driving him mad?

Only the shoulders and boots are bulky, and that's for protection.

As that chart up there illustrates, Marines take up every bit of that space.

Jihallah wrote:Look at the weapons of the imperium of man, in order from highest AP to lowest AP. Go down the list, starting with the worst AP of them all, the humble lasgun. Stop when you reach AP3.
You'll notice you've stopped at Krak missiles. Power armor requires anti-tank weaponry to destroy.

Well, that's not entirely correct - AP only means that a weapon is guaranteed to punch through. It may still happen with lesser weapons, just that it required multiple hits to a single location or a lucky one at a particularly weak spot, etc.

In terms of fluff, I often find power armour being attributed an almost miraculous protection, probably due to certain semi-exaggerated heroic feats in various stories, most often licensed material. The Codex: Angels of Death also goes into detail on protective values, however, and provides a somewhat more sober analysis:
"Individual plates of armour can be up to an inch thick, and have a special honeycomb design which helps to dissipate energy and localise any damage suffered by the suit. Against most small arms, the armour reduces the chance of injury by between 50-85%, and it provides some form of protection against all except the most powerful weapons encountered on the battlefields of the 41st millennium."

Of course, "injury" is a rather loose term - what may kill a normal man may be but a scratch for a Marine, so this would have to be taken into consideration, in addition to any protection offered by the armour.
Also, obviously the fluff on the subject of power armour protection may vary wildly depending on which book or novel one is looking at. The absence of canonicity means that there is a lot of leeway for our own interpretations of the 'verse.

Jihallah wrote:Look at the weapons of the imperium of man, in order from highest AP to lowest AP. Go down the list, starting with the worst AP of them all, the humble lasgun. Stop when you reach AP3.
You'll notice you've stopped at Krak missiles. Power armor requires anti-tank weaponry to destroy.

So, brother thomas- you're down for a nonstop existence of warfare, of watching your family around you age and die while you live to continue war, and would enjoy the monotony of the daily rituals to prevent the ennui and sheer boredom of a 200+ year old man from driving him mad?

I know I would... Although saying that, nurgle would just have to look at me and I'd be all "oh you, course I'll join you! *throws up*"
And that is why I shall never be a space marine... :(


But as has been already stated, the armour is perfectly sized, and they have a fusion reactor IN THEIR BACKPACKS. THAT is efficient.


Von Chogg

Well, as your Sgt is mad you are in the military, so ask yourself this. If you had a nearly impenetrable suit of armor that was guaranteed to make your enemies run screaming for their mommies, and a suit of sleek, streamlined body armor that looked like HALO armor, which do you think would be more effective on the battlefield for frontal assaults?

From a tech standpoint, the armor is that big to fit the 8'+ Space Marine, the nuclear power pack, artificial muscles and servos, and enough armor to stop a main battle tank shell in its tracks. Also, to stop a main battle tank in its tracks.

Also, rule of cool. Pauldrons of Doom beat fratboy HALO armor any day.

Space Marines fulfill a different battlefield role than Spartans...
They also fight wildly different enemies.
It makes sense that their armour would differ...

Lynata wrote:

Brother Thomas wrote:I've thinking about it. With technology things get smaller. So why is power armor so bulky? It seems like man would have found something more advanced by now. Anyhow gotta go, sgt is man lol

It's not that power armour itself is bulky. Look at the Angel-pattern armour employed by the Sisters of Battle. Same armour protection as the Marine variant. The Codex: Angels of Death describes the thickness of Marine armour plating as "up to an inch".

Something to keep in mind is that many suits of power armour, including those of the Space Marines and some Inquisitors, also incorporate a large array of additional subsystems that are not part of the basic design but simply useful additions crammed into it. For example, the Marine armour comes with drug dispensers and an automated medi-suite with lifesign monitor, a waste recycler, gravitic dampeners, and advanced strength augmentation, or the auto-reactive motor construct in the shoulder pauldrons. All this on top of a Marine's already impressive build, which is probably to blame the most.

For all intents and purposes the SOB battle armor differs from the Astartes armor as the SOB has 4+ armour save to the Astartes 3+... specifically you can see this in most visualizations... reason being is the the space marine is genetically engineered to handle a suit of armor that only increases his ability due to the symbiotic nature of his enhancements with the suits interface... SOB's have only had minor gene therapy and psycho conditioning mainly due to the fluffy fact that the upgrades that are given to space marines are not compatible with women...

Coincidentally though, as you have stated, with all the state of the art tech in the space marine and his armor, on the table it should probably warrant at least a 6+ FNP save... I realize this sorely disbalances the game but considering the fluff, and that the astartes are the god-children of GW, Im surprised this isnt the case.

IIRC SoB have a 3+ armour save...

Rule of cool, personified: Exterminatus-proof.

Actually, there ARE examples of less bulky powered armor.

The reason Astartes powered armor is so bulky is because of the various systems embedded within.


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purplefood wrote:IIRC SoB have a 3+ armour save...

Yes. And have always had such.


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WarlordRob117 wrote:For all intents and purposes the SOB battle armor differs from the Astartes armor as the SOB has 4+ armour save to the Astartes 3+

Wrong.

Sisters are, and have always been, 3+ saves.

Codex: Witch Hunters even specifically says that their armor provides the same level of protection as Astartes armor.

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WarlordRob117 wrote:For all intents and purposes the SOB battle armor differs from the Astartes armor as the SOB has 4+ armour save to the Astartes 3+

Wrong.

Sisters are, and have always been, 3+ saves.

Codex: Witch Hunters even specifically says that their armor provides the same level of protection as Astartes armor.

WarlordRob117 wrote:

Thats a fluff error big time... the whole reason of being able to wear power armor is to recieve a majority of the gene-seed upgrades

No, it isn't. You are just plain wrong.

Uh no Im not...

Power armor exists to protect to occupant with the gene-seed organs, and you cant operate the power armor without them, at least according to codex fluff... the suit weighs over 1500 pounds... how else would you operate it with such finesse and control unless you were a hulk of a person with God knows what of extra organs?

Im mean the black carapace
the extra heart
the eyes, the ears
the denser bones, the solid rib-cage
the better blood

SOB's shouldnt have any of those according to the fluff that the gene-seed organs are only compatible with males

Im not being a sexist, but thats what the fluff says

SM have the Black carapace to allow them to interface with their model of power armor. SoB have a different type of powered armor that offers the same protection, but not as much strength. The same armor is available to high-ranking IG officers. I remember it was also worn by Saint Sabbat in the GG series, is was golden armor similar to the SoB armor and it allowed her to take out a Baneblade singlehandedly.

Also, many, many Inquisitors wear powered armor, and even Terminator armor, without the Black Carapace. Its just not SM model armor.

Indeed, the Black Carapace just allows better interface with the power armour - it literally becomes a second skin (or thrid skin?).

Non marine power armour may still have some level of neural interface, however, it is worn more as a powered armour than an extension of the body.

As has been mentioned, SM armour also contains a number of special systems that are often lacking in other variations for "human" users, increasing their relative bulk.

WarlordRob117 wrote:Power armor exists to protect to occupant with the gene-seed organs, and you cant operate the power armor without them, at least according to codex fluff...

You can't use the more advanced extra systems that Marines have without the Black Carapace, things like auto-senses, expanded life support systems and self-repair. The basic armor and artificial muscles work just as well with a kind of body-glove inner suit that registers your movements and lets the armor amplify them. Most of the power there goes to just moving the armor anyways, even for Marines (who have a lot of extra weight over the SoB in those extra systems and so on).

The SoB don't have the Marine upgrades, they're still baseline S3 T3 humans. But their armor works just fine for what it needs to do - they carry around Heavy Bolters alone where guardsmen work those as a team. A Marine can ofc carry that HB alone in Power Armor or not...

40K really need to move to a D10 or D20 system so we can get a better range of stats

SilverMK2 wrote:40K really need to move to a D10 or D20 system so we can get a better range of stats

this times 1 million lol

Fluff Quotes for the Fluff God!

"The power armour worn by the Battle Sisters of the Orders Militant is based upon the same archaic systems as that worn by the brethren of the Adeptus Astartes. It provides the same degree of armoured protection, yet must forego the more advanced life-support systems and strength enhancing abilities used by the Space Marines, as the Sisters of Battle are not implanted with the Black Carapace that allows the Astartes to interface fully with their own armour. Despite this, the Sisters of Battle are one of the few Imperial forces outside of the Space Marines to be granted the right to wear such formidable armour, and they are trained to deadly effect to utilise its abilities to the full."
-- 3E C:WH

Spetulhu wrote:You can't use the more advanced extra systems that Marines have without the Black Carapace, things like auto-senses, expanded life support systems and self-repair.

Well, you could. Self-repair does not depend on user interfacing at all, when it concerns only the suit. The only difference in auto-senses would be that Sisters or Inquisitors would have to push a button whereas a Marine can "think" it. Expanded life support on the other hand ... it probably depends on what this means.

There are probably also other ways around these limitations, such as MIU-interfaces of the type that also allow Mechanicus Tech-Priests to swing their crane-arms around. The Sisters just don't use them - rumours say due to Vandire having dismissed the option for "aesthetical reasons".

Most of the fancy Astartes tools were probably not built into the armour because they were considered unnecessary for the Sisters' role, and thus save on production cost. Its shape may well have been influenced by Vandire's darker desires, too, even though it also incorporates aspects of the Sisters' original clothing back when they were just a small cult on San Leor.

Spetulhu wrote:A Marine can ofc carry that HB alone in Power Armor or not...

Necromunda gangers can, too. But it takes a helluva lot of strength, and I suppose they have to forego stuff like replacement parts and the larger amount of ammunition... Guard Sgt. Harker is one of the few who is able to wield his heavy bolter "like other men handle their rifle", but that guy is a beast even amongst other Catachans.

SilverMK2 wrote:40K really need to move to a D10 or D20 system so we can get a better range of stats

Wouldn't change anything in this case, fortunately.
FFG's RPG does work on a D100 scale, however, and indeed shows drastic differences between the armour designs. It's not the only deviation it took from studio texts, but since canon is pretty much non-existent in this franchise I suppose it is a valid option for people who just can't live with Sisters having gear that is just as good as Marine stuff.

WarlordRob117 wrote:[Sisters are, and have always been, 3+ saves.

What did change was their Toughness. Once they had T4.

1980's styling and bs fluff about near total stagnation in technological development. That's how you have massive power armor instead of something sleeker.

just imagine how much it would suck to fart in your power armor...

WarlordRob117 wrote:just imagine how much it would suck to fart in your power armor...

Not very much given the compartmentalised design of power armour.

WarlordRob117 wrote:just imagine how much it would suck to fart in your power armor...

If you're a Space Marine, this only means that the next ration bar will have a spicy note.

(no, I don't actually believe that the waste recycler creates bars)

the best recycling technology in the universe and space marines eat poop bars... SIGN ME UP TODAY!!!! the only thing that would make astartes army better is if they had a built in espresso maker... I actually heard chuck norris was a space marine... without his armor lol

WarlordRob117 wrote:the best recycling technology in the universe and space marines eat poop bars... SIGN ME UP TODAY!!!! the only thing that would make astartes army better is if they had a built in espresso maker... I actually heard chuck norris was a space marine... without his armor lol

Its only for extended periods of no supplies.

Marines eat normal food most of the time.

WarlordRob117 wrote:the only thing that would make astartes army better is if they had a built in espresso maker...

I believe you'd have to join the Inquisition for that...

I heard from reliable sources that Space Marines only drink blood and tears, anyways!

DeffDred wrote:

Also advancements in tech are stored in Standard Template Constructs and these have been lost and any found are often damaged or destroyed by the Inquisition as heretic tools (see Gaunt's Ghosts first novel)

The information inside STC are not advancements. They are older tech that can provide improvements. The Inquisition does not veiw STCs as heresy. It's quite the opposite.

The part of the Gaunts Ghost novel you are refering to... the Iron Men story?

That's not really an STC, it's a device from the golden age that mass produces Iron Men (Or the robots from I, Robot).

STCs do not manufacture, they explain how to manufacture. At least in it's more basic def.

STC could also mean a certain make or model. A Rhino is an STC. It follows a Standard Template of Construction. It doe not however explain how to continue to manufacture itself.

Thank you for spoilers :/

Lynata wrote:I heard from reliable sources that Space Marines only drink blood and tears, anyways!

And massive amounts of drugs to keep their bodies working. A Space Marine campaign won't be decided by the amount of food or ammo they have, it's decided by how long their medicine stores can last.

WarlordRob117 wrote:Thats a fluff error big time... the whole reason of being able to wear power armor is to recieve a majority of the gene-seed upgrades as per codex: Dark Angels, codex: Black Templars, and codex: Space Marine... FAIL!!!!

The only fluff error here is the one in your head.

Space Marines do not require power armor to have their gene-seed upgrades.

Nor do normal humans.

This has never been the case. Ever.


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SilverMK2 wrote:Non marine power armour may still have some level of neural interface, however, it is worn more as a powered armour than an extension of the body.

Actually, Mechanicus interfaces are even better than Astartes interfaces.

Melissia wrote:

WarlordRob117 wrote:Thats a fluff error big time... the whole reason of being able to wear power armor is to recieve a majority of the gene-seed upgrades as per codex: Dark Angels, codex: Black Templars, and codex: Space Marine... FAIL!!!!

The only fluff error here is the one in your head.

Space Marines do not require power armor to have their gene-seed upgrades.

Nor do normal humans.

This has never been the case. Ever.

Since when did you become a subject matter expert? All you've done is try to tell me Im wrong but you never said why or provided proof...

In the BT codex, on page 11, the black carapace is implanted to make the power armor a natural extension of his body... perhaps I should have said point instead of reason... the fact still remains, and Im sure a fair majority will agree that the armor save granted to the space marine should be the best aside from termi and artificer armor... inquisitors having power armor is a joke, certainly the same with SOB... how is it a powered corset provides more protection than necrodermis? that makes no sense whatsoever...

WarlordRob117 wrote: inquisitors having power armor is a joke, certainly the same with SOB

Why is it a joke? Why can't un-augmented Humans make use of Power Armor? In a Cain novel, Inquisitor Vail uses a skinsuit to replicate the effect of the Black Carapace, although I'm sure it's not as efficient as the implant itself.

... how is it a powered corset provides more protection than necrodermis? that makes no sense whatsoever...

Of course it does. Ceramite is strong, heat-resistant, and non-conductive. Granted, power armor is technologically inferior to necrodermis, but it provides equal protection. Why should technological level matter anyway? The Japanese and the Germans had superior tech in WWII, but they still lost.

WarlordRob117 wrote:Since when did you become a subject matter expert?

But I never actually claimed to be an expert. Only that you were and are hilariously wrong.

WarlordRob117 wrote:All you've done is try to tell me Im wrong but you never said why or provided proof...

What else can I say? Your posts go past ridiculousity and enter in to the realm of the redonkulous.

WarlordRob117 wrote:In the BT codex, on page 11, the black carapace is implanted to make the power armor a natural extension of his body

Which is not what you argued.

You argued that power armor is required to receive the implants. Which is false. Astartes are not issued power armor UNTIL they have all their implants-- the Black Carapace is the last and final implant given to an initiate before they are granted the rank of Battle Brother and allowed to don their powered armor. Your understanding, as you stated it in the post that I quoted, is backwards (both literally and metaphorically).

WarlordRob117 wrote:perhaps I should have said point instead of reason... the fact still remains, and Im sure a fair majority will agree that the armor save granted to the space marine should be the best aside from termi and artificer armor...

They would be wrong.

WarlordRob117 wrote:inquisitors having power armor is a joke

THis statement is nothing more than ignorant fan-wankery of Space Marines. Even junior Inquisitors have FAR more resources and FAR more political power than all but the most influential Astartes Chapter Masters. The idea that they cannot use this to have power armor crafted for them when they are capable of destroying planets is the height of ignorance.

WarlordRob117 wrote:certainly the same with SOB

Sisters are older than most Space Marine chapters and have always had powered armor. It is one of the key defining aspects of their lore, no matter how much you scream otherwise.

WarlordRob117 wrote:... how is it a powered corset provides more protection than necrodermis?

IT's not a power armored corset. The "corset" is merely a decorative overlay. Or perhaps you believe that the artificer armor is actually WEAKER than standard power armor because it has so much gold (a notoriously soft metal which makes for extremely poor armor) on it?

But Mel, surely artificer armour works similar to Ork tech. It may indeed be extremely inefficient with its weaker material and various ornate decorations that would catch projectiles and direct them to weak point than deflect like normal power armour, but the marines believe in it so much it's actually stronger.

Well, to better explain, my point was that artificer armor is merely gilded, not made of gold-- the gold itself is a micro-thin surface layer only, nothing more. Much like the "corset" of the Sororitas is just a decorative outer layer, added by a mentally deranged gakky GW artist commonly known as John Blanche.

Melissia wrote:Sisters are older than most Space Marine chapters and have always had powered armor. It is one of the key defining aspects of their lore, no matter how much you scream otherwise.

Most? Sisters only go back to M36. I'd say around half of existing Chapters go back beyond this.

There are different types of PA too.

There are the various marks of Astartes PA and then there are many many variaties of human PA.

Astartes PA will need the Black Carapace to properly function, but human PA is just a matter of putting it on.

WarlordRob117 wrote:how is it a powered corset provides more protection than necrodermis? that makes no sense whatsoever...

That's because the corset (which is more like a studded leather plackart than a corset) is purely decorative - either that, or its only protection is against dust/sand clogging the underlying armour plates, although I suppose the material could also be imprinted to dissipate energy. Matter of interpretation.

The corset is interchangable, it can be replaced by a rigid plackart to further increase armoured protection, or even be left away.


-- Sisters armour without the "corset" in the artworks


-- Canoness miniature, corset switched for ornate plackart


-- Repentia Mistress miniature without corset, exposing the adamantium-finished ceramite/flexsteel armour plates below

Grey Templar wrote:Astartes PA will need the Black Carapace to properly function, but human PA is just a matter of putting it on.

From what I have heard, it is more like the other way around, at least if you are a Marine. Power armour needs to be configured and adjusted for the individual user, the pressure and nerve sensors carefully attuned to the person's body. A Space Marine, on the other hand, really can just put the armour on and instantly receive the best results, as it works like a second skin for him.
Sources may differ on this, of course, so this is in no way an authorative statement ... but I always thought this makes sense.

Apparently they have massive boobs. Lol

They need protecting.

^ no kidding

Their charge range is mirrored by their bra size.

^ lol

Melissia wrote:

WarlordRob117 wrote:Since when did you become a subject matter expert?

But I never actually claimed to be an expert. Only that you were and are hilariously wrong.

WarlordRob117 wrote:All you've done is try to tell me Im wrong but you never said why or provided proof...

What else can I say? Your posts go past ridiculousity and enter in to the realm of the redonkulous.

WarlordRob117 wrote:In the BT codex, on page 11, the black carapace is implanted to make the power armor a natural extension of his body

Which is not what you argued.

You argued that power armor is required to receive the implants. Which is false. Astartes are not issued power armor UNTIL they have all their implants-- the Black Carapace is the last and final implant given to an initiate before they are granted the rank of Battle Brother and allowed to don their powered armor. Your understanding, as you stated it in the post that I quoted, is backwards (both literally and metaphorically).

WarlordRob117 wrote:perhaps I should have said point instead of reason... the fact still remains, and Im sure a fair majority will agree that the armor save granted to the space marine should be the best aside from termi and artificer armor...

They would be wrong.

WarlordRob117 wrote:inquisitors having power armor is a joke

THis statement is nothing more than ignorant fan-wankery of Space Marines. Even junior Inquisitors have FAR more resources and FAR more political power than all but the most influential Astartes Chapter Masters. The idea that they cannot use this to have power armor crafted for them when they are capable of destroying planets is the height of ignorance.

WarlordRob117 wrote:certainly the same with SOB

Sisters are older than most Space Marine chapters and have always had powered armor. It is one of the key defining aspects of their lore, no matter how much you scream otherwise.

WarlordRob117 wrote:... how is it a powered corset provides more protection than necrodermis?

IT's not a power armored corset. The "corset" is merely a decorative overlay. Or perhaps you believe that the artificer armor is actually WEAKER than standard power armor because it has so much gold (a notoriously soft metal which makes for extremely poor armor) on it?

Must be a DCM thing to tell someone they're wrong then and then not provide examples... and making fun of my opinions and examples just goes to show how immature you are...

but on to the good stuff, I never said once that geneseed organs were required to use power armor... what I said was is power armor is required to protect the occupants geneseed, which is true,as there are none more invaluable to the imperium than the space marine... further more I elaborated by stating that the power suit is a motorized walking tank essentially designed for the space marine... all this extra junk didnt exist back when the first legions were created and for good reason... if you put an imperial human (inquisitor scum-bag) into a power armor suit, back in the rogue trader days that person would have been ripped apart due to there bodies lacking the specific upgrades needed to properly operate the machinery... in the new editions giving such tech to mere humans makes a mockery of everything that the space marine is supposed to be... perfection perfection perfection and nothing less... inquisitor in power armor is far from perfection, even for a beaurocratic society such as inquisitors, and the same goes for SOB...
Artificer isnt just pretty, it is some of the most resourcefully made and archaic forms of power armor long dead to the imperium in its design... suits like these are precious as what you see is what you get... even the expert artificers of nocturne and mars couldnt replicate said technology due to the plans having been long destroyed... seeing how gold is obviously abundant in the 40K universe it should be nothing to replace a little filigre when necessary... but again, a suit of armour that weighs 1500+ lbs should not be able to be used by a normal human being... it is laughable...

WarlordRob117 wrote:but on to the good stuff, I never said once that geneseed organs were required to use power armor... what I said was is power armor is required to protect the occupants geneseed, which is true,as there are none more invaluable to the imperium than the space marine... further more I elaborated by stating that the power suit is a motorized walking tank essentially designed for the space marine... all this extra junk didnt exist back when the first legions were created and for good reason... if you put an imperial human (inquisitor scum-bag) into a power armor suit, back in the rogue trader days that person would have been ripped apart due to there bodies lacking the specific upgrades needed to properly operate the machinery... in the new editions giving such tech to mere humans makes a mockery of everything that the space marine is supposed to be... perfection perfection perfection and nothing less... inquisitor in power armor is far from perfection, even for a beaurocratic society such as inquisitors, and the same goes for SOB...

Though I do not agree with the manner the dialogue between the two of you was conducted, I feel the need to point out two things:
- You did say that "Power armor exists to protect to occupant with the gene-seed organs, and you cant operate the power armor without them"
- Powered armour has been available to normal humans since the very first days of Rogue Trader; did you even read that book? Power-armoured Sisters of Battle were already in there, as were power-armoured Inquisitors.
- Using terms such as "Inquisitor scum-bag" only makes you come off as a hardcore Marine fan who thinks any other faction is underserving of "the cool stuff".

WarlordRob117 wrote:but again, a suit of armour that weighs 1500+ lbs should not be able to be used by a normal human being... it is laughable...

Apart from a suit of power armour carrying itself which is the entire point of the armour being powered in the first place ...

"On its own, a suit of power armour weighs over 250 lbs, and even a Space Marine would find it difficult to move while wearing it, were it not for the electrically motivated fibre bundles implanted in the armour."
- 2E Codex: Angels of Death

I'm aware that certain outsourced products give power armour a much greater weight, however, so if you prefer some Black Library novel or FFG's RPG over GW studio material, that would be a valid interpretation, too. It does not change what the studio has established, however, so complaining about something "laughable" when it makes perfect sense if you stick to GW material just doesn't work.

WarlordRob117 wrote:if you put an imperial human (inquisitor scum-bag) into a power armor suit, back in the rogue trader days that person would have been ripped apart due to there bodies lacking the specific upgrades needed to properly operate the machinery...

The original marks of power armour were actually used by relatively normal humans on Earth during the uniting of Terra.

in the new editions giving such tech to mere humans makes a mockery of everything that the space marine is supposed to be... perfection perfection perfection and nothing less... inquisitor in power armor is far from perfection, even for a beaurocratic society such as inquisitors, and the same goes for SOB...

IYO... which is a position not shared by any of the fluff... There has never been, as far as I am aware, any fluff which states that power armour is only reserved for space marines.

a suit of armour that weighs 1500+ lbs should not be able to be used by a normal human being... it is laughable...

A suit of armour that is self supporting due to being powered armour?

/tiphat

Appreciation returned. It's certainly nice to see people also admitting they are biased - because, let's face it, we all are, simply due to all of us having a favorite faction.

As for the Marines, I think it is important that what makes them special isn't their armour and weapons (as these are indeed not unique to them), but all the implants and their lifestyle. If you have a Marine and a normal human both in power armour, the Marine will still be harder to stop, presented on the TT by the Marines having T4 and various special rules. I do not think anyone in the Imperium is as souped-up as the Astartes when it comes to body manipulation. Granted, there are some Assassins and the Mechanicus Tech-Priests, but their modifications aim at different effects. Physically, the Astartes are the best troops the Imperium has to offer. For some Chapters, this is "balanced" by shortcomings such as geneseed mutation or a simple lack in loyalty, but that would be a discussion for another thread.

tl;dr: don't limit your perception of what makes the Marines "awesome" solely on their gear

Lynata wrote:/tiphat

Appreciation returned. It's certainly nice to see people also admitting they are biased - because, let's face it, we all are, simply due to all of us having a favorite faction.

As for the Marines, I think it is important that what makes them special isn't their armour and weapons (as these are indeed not unique to them), but all the implants and their lifestyle. If you have a Marine and a normal human both in power armour, the Marine will still be harder to stop, presented on the TT by the Marines having T4 and various special rules. I do not think anyone in the Imperium is as souped-up as the Astartes when it comes to body manipulation. Granted, there are some Assassins and the Mechanicus Tech-Priests, but their modifications aim at different effects. Physically, the Astartes are the best troops the Imperium has to offer. For some Chapters, this is "balanced" by shortcomings such as geneseed mutation or a simple lack in loyalty, but that would be a discussion for another thread.

tl;dr: don't limit your perception of what makes the Marines "awesome" solely on their gear

^This times infinity

but what really gets me going is the can-do attitude and the general "we're humanities last hope, so lets act like it" mind-set... Probably my favorite stories are about Calgar and his charisma as a leader, combines with his unshakable resolve as a warrior... the armor of antilochus, the gauntlets of ultramar... these just make an already awesome character perfect.... the proper tools of a god of war...

Tadashi wrote:

Melissia wrote:Sisters are older than most Space Marine chapters and have always had powered armor. It is one of the key defining aspects of their lore, no matter how much you scream otherwise.

Most? Sisters only go back to M36. I'd say around half of existing Chapters go back beyond this.

Sisters existed in Rogue Trader.

Most SM chapters were little more than a color scheme back then.

WarlordRob117 wrote:I never said once that geneseed organs were required to use power armor

See my previous quote. Yes you did.

WarlordRob117 wrote:there are none more invaluable to the imperium than the space marine

Blanks, primaris psykers, titan crews, navigators, inquisitors-- I can think of plenty of people, nevermind things far more valuable to the Imperium than a mere space marine.

WarlordRob117 wrote:further more I elaborated by stating that the power suit is a motorized walking tank essentially designed for the space marine

The Astartes patterns of power armor are. Why are you under the delusions that these are the only ones that exist when I have provided numerous examples where humans can and do use power armor.

WarlordRob117 wrote:all this extra junk didnt exist back when the first legions were created

Powered armor existed well before the first legions were created. In fact, the power armor that existed in the dark age of technology was FAR superior to that of the Astartes-- the Emperor continually improved upon the power armor he provided his legions.

WarlordRob117 wrote:if you put an imperial human (inquisitor scum-bag) into a power armor suit, back in the rogue trader days that person would have been ripped apart due to there bodies lacking the specific upgrades

This is pure fiction, nothing more than you making gak up and claiming that it is lore. Sisters of Battle had powered armor back in the Rogue Trader era. In fact, the very first appearance of Sisters had them executing Space Marines, destroying the Rainbow Marines chapter for disloyalty. Sisters were almost sort of an army which functioned as commissars to the Space Marines back then. They have been made less dependent on Space Marine lore since then of course, but they still occasionally are used to punish disloyal Space Marine chapters.

WarlordRob117 wrote:in the new editions giving such tech to mere humans makes a mockery of everything that the space marine is supposed to be

You mean boring Mary Sue characters?

WarlordRob117 wrote:... perfection perfection perfection and nothing less...

spank spank spank.

WarlordRob117 wrote:inquisitor in power armor is far from perfection

Space Marines have never been perfect.

WarlordRob117 wrote:and the same goes for SOB...

Sisters of Battle, and I quote DIRECTLY FROM THE LORE because you are incapable of reading anything other than Astartes fanwank, are:

[...]shining examples of all that is good about humanity.

Exact quote. Space Marines are left ambiguous, but Sisters of Battle are explicitly stated to be good. They make mistakes and have flaws, but they are the best of humanity. Space Marines in comparison... aren't human anymore. It's the entire point of Astartes really-- their inhuman qualities grant them physical (but not mental) superiority over most of the other races in the galaxy.

WarlordRob117 wrote:Artificer isnt just pretty

You notice the point? Yeah, it's over there. You completely missed it in your attempts to fanwank marines.

WarlordRob117 wrote:but again, a suit of armour that weighs 1500+ lbs should not be able to be used by a normal human being

My car weighs more than 1500 pounds (go steel chassis, no aluminum here!). And yet I, an untrained civilian who does not do bodybuilding, am able to move it.

Powered armor is far more complex than an automobile. You completely and utterly miss the definition of powered armor. Nevermind that powered armor in 40k does not weigh 1500 pounds, the very nature of powered armor is that it assists the user in wearing it, much like a motorized vehicle assists the user in moving it.

Lynata wrote:I'm aware that certain outsourced products give power armour a much greater weight, however, so if you prefer [...] FFG's RPG over GW studio material

I know you have a stupid, irrational hate of FFG, but at least do some fething research (or even just have a long-term memory when I repeatedly say the same exact goddamned thing to you instead of ignoring it for the sake of your FFG-hate) instead of lying to people about FFG as is your usual methods. At least I assume that's what you're doing-- intentionally spreading misinformation despite being corrected on the topic numerous times.

Powered armor in FFG ranges from ~80 pounds (for light powered armor that might belong to a rich nobleman and his retinue) to ~880 pounds for terminator armor. None of the armors exceed 1000 pounds, not even terminator armor.

Melissia wrote:I know you have a stupid, irrational hate of FFG, but at least do some fething research (or even just have a long-term memory when I repeatedly say the same exact goddamned thing to you instead of ignoring it for the sake of your FFG-hate) instead of lying to people about FFG as is your usual methods. Powered armor ranges from ~80 pounds (for light powered armor that might belong to a rich nobleman and his retinue) to ~880 pounds for terminator armor. None of the armors exceed 1000 pounds, not even terminator armor.

If you think I'm "hating" on an RPG system of which I have purchased about a dozen books over the past years, then I think you are fanboying over it.

As for your accusation? Fact: FFG's version of Space Marine power armour is more than twice the weight stated for Space Marine power armour in GW sources. Discrepancies like these won't magically disappear, regardless of how deep you want to stick your fingers into your ears and claim others are lying or "not getting it".

Other types of power armour were not even subject of my post, given that it aimed at pointing out differences between various sources. So either you simply did not read what I wrote, or it was you who didn't do their research on statements concerning weight in the various books.

If you cannot stomach me stating the simple truth but go into berserk mode every time I "dare" to criticize needless deviations from studio material, best put me on ignore, for it may very well happen again.

Lynata wrote:If you cannot stomach me stating the simple truth

What truth? I only saw you lying, as you tend to do about things related to FFG, and suggesting that FFG's example of powered armor is 1500 pounds.

Brother Thomas wrote:Apparently they have massive boobs. Lol

Die.

Melissia wrote:

Tadashi wrote:

Melissia wrote:Sisters are older than most Space Marine chapters and have always had powered armor. It is one of the key defining aspects of their lore, no matter how much you scream otherwise.

Most? Sisters only go back to M36. I'd say around half of existing Chapters go back beyond this.

Sisters existed in Rogue Trader.

Most SM chapters were little more than a color scheme back then.

Yes they did. But I thought you were referring in-universe, in which case around half of all Chapters should be older than the Sisters.

Oh, I was talking about for GW in general.

SilverMK2 wrote:

The original marks of power armour were actually used by relatively normal humans on Earth during the uniting of Terra.

No, they were used by proto-Astartes, the so-called Thunder Warriors. Even the Emperor - who had a normal body as far as I know - had to 'expand' his body when wearing power armor.

Tadashi wrote:No, they were used by proto-Astartes, the so-called Thunder Warriors. Even the Emperor - who had a normal body as far as I know - simply 'expanded' his body when wearing power armor.

Correction accepted - I knew they were modified to an extent but I have just looked them up and have seen that they were significantly bigger/etc than regular humans.

Melissia wrote:

Lynata wrote:If you cannot stomach me stating the simple truth

What truth? I only saw you lying, as you tend to do about things related to FFG, and suggesting that FFG's example of powered armor is 1500 pounds.

Okay, so you just didn't read. Is bold text an official tool for polemics?

Recap:
WarlordRob117 complained about SoB wearing power armour, stating it shouldn't be possible for non-Marines to wear something that weighs "over 1500 pounds" as it presumably requires a Black Carapace.
I then pointed out that Marine power armour is actually just 250 lbs, adding that other sources - like FFG - may well give greater weights.
And 113 kg being less than 180 kg is not a "lie", it is an objective observation.

Although I will add that the difference is not as large as I first remembered, not that it changes anything about my core statement - said statement being FFG material occasionally differs from GW material. Like many other licensed publications do.
That's not even "hating FFG", that is simply making people aware that there are differences between their various sources, because apparently not everybody realizes this.

And yet, you still suggested that if people wanted to believe powered armor was 1500 pounds they'd go with FFG.

I'm glad you admit you were wrong.

SilverMK2 wrote:

Tadashi wrote:No, they were used by proto-Astartes, the so-called Thunder Warriors. Even the Emperor - who had a normal body as far as I know - simply 'expanded' his body when wearing power armor.

Correction accepted - I knew they were modified to an extent but I have just looked them up and have seen that they were significantly bigger/etc than regular humans.

I'm pretty sure Thunder Warriors were bigger and stronger than Astartes. They had life-spans though, and unstable genes. They were a testing ground for technologies to be used to create the Primarchs and the Astartes. When Unification was over, those that were still alive were culled by the Custodes or retired and died.

Melissia wrote:And yet, you still suggested that if people wanted to believe powered armor was 1500 pounds they'd go with FFG.

Not at all. In spite of you focusing solely on my criticism towards FFG, the post was actually aimed at any source needlessly deviating from what the studio had established - be it intentionally or due to sloppy research. If you'd just bother to look back, you may notice that I did not only mention FFG but also the Black Library - before mentioning FFG, even. When I'm taking a broad swing at inconsistency in the franchise, please, do not concentrate on a single example and claim that I'm "hating" solely on this, because I don't.

Either way, since 40k doesn't follow a canon, people are free to go with whatever they like. Be it the 250 lbs from the C:AoD, the 400 lbs from FFG, or 1500 lbs - whether the latter is actually printed in some book or stems solely from a fan's own idea.

If you are incapable of backing down from a false accusation, then let's just stop it here and not derail the thread any further.

Lynata wrote:

Either way, since 40k doesn't follow a canon, people are free to go with whatever they like. Be it the 250 lbs from the C:AoD, the 400 lbs from FFG, or 1500 lbs - whether the latter is actually printed in some book or stems solely from a fan's own idea.

Power armor is not even supposed to weigh anything while worn. That would defeat its purpose.

Yeah, Marines actually move faster and are stronger when wearing their armor. Its only a minor difference but its still there.

Its bulky because that's the general asthetic the artwork goes for when it comes to most things Imperial. Big, blocky, cumbersome, covered in skulls and fluttering bits of paper. That's how we know it's Imperial. Just like if its coated in blood and spikes and leering faces, we know it's chaos.

This is the same artwork that makes the Leman Russ pack a 120mm smoothbore (or rifled, depending on your source) cannon that is big enough to stick your head and/or upper torso in. not only that, but the tank can pack in 40 of those shells into the handy dandy ammo storage bin using Bag of Holding technology. Heck we know they can miniaturize tech down, because they somehow worked that out for bolters too. And heavy bolters (I always wondered where the 'fist sized' bolt references came from... )

Or if you really need an explanation, its to justify their ability to die falling down stairs. Or something.

1: Vehicle models are not to scale with themselves.

2: all infantry models are done in Heroic Scale.

3: When a model dies in the game it doesn't = dead. They might be simply incapacitated, injured, or otherwise unable to complete the battle. This is what Get's Hot represents, the user scalding himself/losing his weapon and as such being of no further use till its dealt with.

I also thought of all the Artwork where bolters eject casings. Or where the Tau seem to fight the same way as IG (out in the open, a few feet away from the enemy. The notable one I'm thinking of is Tau vs Tyranids, which I think was in 5th edition core rules.)

Bolters eject casings.

It is erronious that they are caseless, they were never caseless to my knowledge. and, even if they were, it has since been overruled by more recent fluff.

Bolters fire a .75 caliber two-stage round. The bolt round is fired initially with an explosive charge identical to modern firearms, encased in a metal. After exiting the barrel, the secondary rocket stage ignites and propels the bolt to even greater velocities.

Connor MacLeod wrote:I always wondered where the 'fist sized' bolt references came from...

This one isn't hard to explain, though! Just think of it as referring to the projectile's length, not its caliber.

If it would resemble a fist in all dimensions, it would look a bit weird, I think.

Connor MacLeod wrote:ItAnd heavy bolters (I always wondered where the 'fist sized' bolt references came from... )

That's just the size of the holes they blow in unarmored targets - fist-sized. Marine-in-PA-fist-sized most likely.

I think it was to do with the diameter of the round. Kind of think it'd do more damage than that.

Yeah, regular bolt shells would be blowing fist sized chunks out of people. A heavy bolter would outright vaporise them.

It really was referring to the projectiles, not the damage they do. It was a line in the Marine Codex, if I remember correctly. Yet, heavy bolter shells still have a diameter of "only" 1 inch, hence my theory that the "fist size" refers to the length. If you take one of these babies into your hand, it probably is long enough.

This is starting to sound dirty.

And another perfectly good discussion winds up with marines and sex

Grey Templar wrote:And another perfectly good discussion winds up with marines and sex

I know. Honestly, why is whenever Sisters and Astartes are put together, it ends the same way?

Grey Templar wrote:Yeah, regular bolt shells would be blowing fist sized chunks out of people. A heavy bolter would outright vaporise them.

7.62mm (.308 cal) rounds already blow fist-sized chunks out of people.

n0t_u wrote:I think it was to do with the diameter of the round. Kind of think it'd do more damage than that.

It is. Fist-sized Bolts, not fist-sized holes.

Spetulhu wrote:

Connor MacLeod wrote:ItAnd heavy bolters (I always wondered where the 'fist sized' bolt references came from... )

That's just the size of the holes they blow in unarmored targets - fist-sized. Marine-in-PA-fist-sized most likely.

You mean like what normal rounds today do? .50 caliber rounds tear people in half, shear off limbs, etc. You don't get much worse than that.

In fact, old muskets blew fist sized chunks out of people.