Everyone's reasoning is going to be different, but I'm curious what the most popular answers are. I'll start off by saying that out of everyone I probably dislike the Space Wolves the most. Not so much because of their lore (which I also dislike, but that has nothing to do with them as a playable race), but because I feel they have many traits that use to specifically belong to other factions (like how they can mimic a Deathwing Army) and than just more crap loaded on top to make them even more over the top. At least Grey Knights and the like have their own general flavor and ideas, Space Wolves seems like a few ideas and than ripping off 1/2 the other factions.
So, what is your most disliked playable faction in 40k and why?
BA angels, lets throw lots of FNP around in an Assault orientated army with lots of Rending Assault Cannons, add in some crazy Rage Deathcompany, Blood Talon Dreadnoughts, Fast tanks, Discount Razorbacks for 5 man assault units as troops, badass characters and then some extra assault units, apocatharies and a special assault tactic called Decent of Angels, an attack craft only used by the GK's except the BA get them too.... I've missed alot of other stuff, but the SW's have always been fluffy and things like lone wolves and such are quite endearing as are Blood claws. The BA just seemed like an excuse to go overboard until GK's turned up, but then GK's are outnumber 2 to 1 by a SM army so there you go.
They are a young race that is extremely technology advanced and are the closest to having a "good" faction in this universe. Ya that kind of annoys the gak out of me at times.
Next would be Blood Angels (fething slowed fluff)
and than Space Wolves (I hate vikings and they act like drunken idiots)
Grey Knights as they currently stand. They should be an elites choice in Space Marine or Guard lists, not a codex in their own right. The same can be said for all marine variant chapters, but Grey Knights are the worst.
I'm surprised Tau is thus far up there with some of the most disliked. I can see where you are all coming from, I take their fluff with the idea that the Ethereal have everyone under mind-control and that though people like Farsight might still embrace "The Greater Good" there is still a reason he has not returned, being that I'm sure after being mind controlled you would enjoy your freedom as well.
However, if you do not accept that as part of their fluff...than yea...being goodie good in the 40k world is lame.
Thanks for the input thus far everyone! Very interesting!
Oh dear, let the Tau bashing commence... Apparently mind controlled militant cow-people that are hinted to be genocidal if you don't agree to join them isn't grim-dark enough, but cockney mushroom men are fine >.<
I have no preferences, fluffwise. I just appreciate such a wide variety of factions
I could practically feel the SW hate just from looking at the title of this thread, and although there isn't too much of it as it currently stands, it will come.
Personally, I'm not really a fan of Dark Angels. I like all of the factions based on their own merit, but I just seem to like Dark Angels the least.
Shas'o_Longshot wrote:Oh dear, let the Tau bashing commence... Apparently mind controlled militant cow-people that are hinted to be genocidal if you don't agree to join them isn't grim-dark enough, but cockney mushroom men are fine >.<
I have no preferences, fluffwise. I just appreciate such a wide variety of factions
Dont miss understand, I like to think of my Tau as extremly dark. However he asked what do I dislike to most and I said what I disliked the most and gave my reason.
In a few hours you are going to see a lot of anti SMs I assure you
Grey Knights. Not because I think they're OP, but because their background is a complete contradiction to them being seperate fully fledged playable faction.
The Tau's shade of "grey" is that they are a caste society with really no room for upward mobility. Often "sacrifices" for the Greater Good entail members of lesser standing being thrown into the meat grinder for the sake of their society's elite. The novel Fire Warrior did a pretty good job of showing the lengths they'd go to in order to secure an Ethereal's life. Sounds a lot like the Imperium/Imperial Guard to me...
Anyways, I find it hard to dislike any one faction based on lore. I even found myself intrigued by the Chaos Space Marines viewpoint in Storm of Iron.
Tyranid do freak me out though. Its crazy to think that they've already caused so much destruction, yet only like, what, about 0.01% of the hive fleet has actually entered into the galaxy?
Oh oh oooh! Multi-choice poll! I just ticked in all my griefs, don't worry, I didn't tick *all* Space Marine progeny, and surprisingly enough not even half of them.
Contrary to most, I don't get why there's so much hate going in Tau's direction. They are there for contrast, but still have that creepy "not sure if greater goodious" hanging over them to keep them in the grim dark universe. With only grim dark factions of dark grimness... well let's just say Abaddon is getting more and more reasonable each year without having to change his ways.
Blood Angels. My buddy has a list filled with Assault Marines which is very fast and very choppy, then he also has a gunline list with 3 Predators, 3 Baal Predators and 4 Razorbacks that reminds me of IG. I don't think one Codex should be able to field two lists that are that different and equally viable.
StoneRaizer wrote:Blood Angels. My buddy has a list filled with Assault Marines which is very fast and very choppy, then he also has a gunline list with 3 Predators, 3 Baal Predators and 4 Razorbacks that reminds me of IG. I don't think one Codex should be able to field two lists that are that different and equally viable.
Depends on the army. I do agree with you, though, in the specific case of Blood Angels (and by extension Space Wolves). Some armies simply are all-rounders (Eldar, IG, codex SM, chaos SM) but the non-codex Space Marine chapters are supposed to be chapters based entirely around an idea that separates them from regular Space Marines, they're supposed to have an over-focus on a certain area. This focus just isn't there with BA and SW.
Any faction that allows you to use Elite units as Troop units. I.e Grey Knight and their terminators. The regular knights are enough of a bitch to kill as it is!
1st - Chaos Demons - They just should not exist. Stole a major fluff away from C:CSM and there is just no reason what so ever for Demons to band together and go raiding.
2nd - Blood Angles - They ARE C:SM but with better toys, more power, and horrific fluff.
haha the only one i would say i "hate" by any stretch is Dark Eldar, BUT only because when i play with them i simply mess everything up and looses within 4 turns average x) (my group occasionally swaps armies to spice things up).
Probably Space Wolves. Terrible mary-sue-disguised-as-bad-boys-with-hearts-of-gold fluff that's often highly confused and contradictory, not to mention reads like bad internet fanfic. They try to be dark brooding burdened executioners, boistrous scallywags, werewolves, superstitious viking berzerkers, intensly intelligent soldiers, pranksters and "good guys" all at the same time, and it comes off as just...awful.
That said, SM fluff in general isn't far behind, be it GW or BL.
Eldar used to piss me off, but haven't really been in the spotlight much of late.
In game terms? Again, Space Wolves are up there, being not only "Marines+1 with 15% discount", but also very, very rarely playing like one would imagine an SW army actually appearing, with either hordes of giant wolves being ridden by men who think they are wolves, or mechanized gunlines that look like Iron Warriors armies hastily re-painted in Fenris grey (lots of small infantry units maximizing firepower and often operating in multiples of 3, etc).
BA's too, most of the time I see them they basically are playing like Imperial Guard armored companies, lost of armor and IFV's, and whenever you do see jump pack based armies they tend to be built to the hilt around FNP being on *everything*.
I find myself torn on this, between chaos daemons and grey knights.
For the daemons I just don't get how there are meant to be billions of them, some kind of continuous swarm, and yet you field only an average number of the field?
And with the grey knights, yes they do look awesome, but their fluff turns them all into some kind of army of demi-gods who could solo about 1 million daemons each without a scratch, and what do they get? Shiny terminators with a blue sword
But I thought grey knights would get the most hate anyway so I went for Chaos
I'm not a great fan of Tau. I guess this may stem from them being a strong anti-vehicle army - and I play Orks with already weak vehicles, so I hate the way I have to play a specific way to beat them - Green tide & Kommando's with Snikrot. Play Speed Freaks and lose Turn 1 Initiative it's usually game over.
Tau are also my least favourite models in 40K. Although with that said a guy at our club the other week did have the most amazingly painted Tau army.
I'm actually going to say blood angels on this one as well.
On the one hand, I dislike them because they don't deserve their own codex. Their models are just marines. The units they can take have shocking overlap with the marine codex. They're just red marines.
On the other hand, those things that are different are absurd. You don't get to move and shoot all the weapons on your non-skimmer tank... unless you're blood angels. You can't transport a vehicle inside of another (non-drop-pod) vehicle... unless you're blood angels. You don't get to deepstrike land raiders, that's absurd... unless you're blood angels. The list goes on and on of things that are so fundamentally different that it really makes me wonder if we're playing the same game here. There are core rules that every army needs to follow, the BA just seem to ignore, and for no good reason either.
Nothing special with their models, bland, OTT, warporn fluff that breaks some of the basic fluff principles of the game (here's looking at you, necron), and then on top of this, you add a bunch of free upgrades and nonsensical rules abridgements. More than any army, BA, as it currently exists, least belongs in the world of 40k.
Roll them back into codex marines, with dante as a special character that unlocks death company with a chapter tactic of black rage, and the 40k universe would be able to heal a little.
I know I am in the minority here, but I dislike the Eldar. And it is for a really petty reason too. I just have such a hard time getting a satisfying victory against them. I have maybe won a game handily like twice against Eldar. Bah!
Yeah I should probably have a better reason, but I don't. I am just gonna be petty on this one/
Really only Grey Knights for me. 1) because the one GK player I've gone up against ragequit after I Time's Arrowed Draigo (he didn't even roll against Time's Arrow, just rage quit on the spot) and 2) psykotroke grenades.
Hate sisters of battle, because all of the models look like lady gaga and everyone I've seen that plays them is a 40-something theres-gotta-be-something-wrong-with-that-guy super weird basement weirdo or feminist.
Everyone who isn't Space Wolves, why you might ask?
Because who doesn't love the Ubermensch.
But in all honesty its the fact that the other armies can't take giant dogs, thats why In the grim darkness of 40K there is only SPACE WOLVES!
Now somebody feed me/
Jayden63 wrote:1st - Chaos Demons - They just should not exist. Stole a major fluff away from C:CSM and there is just no reason what so ever for Demons to band together and go raiding.
This. And, having collected eldar so long and they way I like to integrate myself into armies I play to make em more enjoyable, I really don't like slaanesh.... haha.
Bet yeah, Daemons as an army shouldn't work. They could only appear en masse when there was a warp rift, which aren't THAT common. And are normally started by chaos marines!
Also, reason I hate draigo is same thing. He can only show up during a warp rift. Him fighting, say, Eldar makes near no sense, as I doubt the Eldar would get involved in a warp rift if grey knights were going too. And why the hell can he have paladins as troops? Him showing up is RANDOM! It's not like he texts every single paladin unit saying 'hi guise, will be at x place at y time. cyas there! xxx'. If he made em scoring, but still elites, fair enough, but troop choice makes no sense... /rant
Milisim wrote:I don't understand all this anti tau / not grim Dark stuff either...
Disliking them based on they dont want to rape, pillage, murder and eradicate everyone who opposes them is idiotic.
Anyone who thinks that is cool should take a tour of Auschwitz and get back to me on how cool it actually is.
It is a good thing no one is saying that isnt it.
People are saying that they think that the Tau dont fit with the universe where the 'good guys' before the Tau was the xenopohic and mass murdering Imperium and the Eldar who would trade billions of lives to save hundred of their own and than the Tau come out and are handing out candy to everyone who agrees to join.
For the most part people just want to the Tau fit better in the rest of the universe, they currently feel out of placed.
Dont pick up a moral high ground and act like who enjoy a dark setting are horrible sadistic monsters. All it is in this dark fantasy world, they find the grim and dark nature of it appealing... in the fantasy world
Ive been to the Holocaust museum a lot and I personally hate the idea of torture and find the people who fail to follow the laws of war and the Geneva Convention appaling yet Im one of the first to say I feel the Tau dont belong.
Milisim wrote:I don't understand all this anti tau / not grim Dark stuff either...
Disliking them based on they dont want to rape, pillage, murder and eradicate everyone who opposes them is idiotic.
Anyone who thinks that is cool should take a tour of Auschwitz and get back to me on how cool it actually is.
It is a good thing no one is saying that isnt it.
People are saying that they think that the Tau dont fit with the universe where the 'good guys' before the Tau was the xenopohic and mass murdering Imperium and the Eldar who would trade billions of lives to save hundred of their own and than the Tau come out and are handing out candy to everyone who agrees to join.
For the most part people just want to the Tau fit better in the rest of the universe, they currently feel out of placed.
Dont pick up a moral high ground and act like who enjoy a dark setting are horrible sadistic monsters. All it is in this dark fantasy world, they find the grim and dark nature of it appealing... in the fantasy world
Ive been to the Holocaust museum a lot and I personally hate the idea of torture and find the people who fail to follow the laws of war and the Geneva Convention appaling yet Im one of the first to say I feel the Tau dont belong.
Oh give the Tau a break, they're a nigh futile existence. Their a short lived race that dreams big and perhaps thus do burn ever so brightly but they are more or less just a damned as the rest of the galaxy is, probably more as they are fairly puny in size.
IMOP, The Necrons for sure... I mean really? Metal Zombie Egyptians? Who comes up with these jokes because they arenot funny... They have someof the stupidest rules in the game, they piss off more people then eldar do! Tesla weapons dont even fit in with egyptian lore, thats on a seperate continent... To me they just don't seem to fit in with the 40k fluff, not one bit besides being a terminator fans wet dream gone horribly wrong
Riddick40k wrote:IMOP, The Necrons for sure... I mean really? Metal Zombie Egyptians? Who comes up with these jokes because they arenot funny... They have someof the stupidest rules in the game, they piss off more people then eldar do! Tesla weapons dont even fit in with egyptian lore, thats on a seperate continent... To me they just don't seem to fit in with the 40k fluff, not one bit besides being a terminator fans wet dream gone horribly wrong
Tesla fits fine with Necron lore. They are the apex of Technology so why wouldn't they use such tech (and remember, the weapon names you see are what the Imperium calls them)? By your logic, Gauss technology should be tossed as it doesn't fit with Egyptian lore. Which is silly. Read some Necron fluff and then come back and tell us about how Egyptian they are (which they really aren't except on the very, VERY surface).
I just dislike the GK because they have idiot answers to everything. Two easy things to solve it... cleansing flames only affects things directly in base contact and independent characters can only toss one type of grenade not one of everything.
King Pariah wrote:Their a short lived race that dreams big and perhaps thus do burn ever so brightly but they are more or less just a damned as the rest of the galaxy is, probably more as they are fairly puny in size.
Well said, Overlord. Personally, I find the idea of 'good guys' in 40k a big joke with bad taste.
I play orks, and I have not played much against Blood Angels and never against Space Wolves, but if I have problems with Grey Knights and Imperial Guard so I image is going to be close to the same. I was talking to a friend and for what we see in 6th edition we are going to have a lot of problems as ork players.
They're soooo dumb. Cheap units, rules, wargear, powers, and much more. Also basically drunk marines/vikings.
I'd rather play GK, at least they have a weakness, being shot at.
Here's the thing. I like Vikings. I read sagas in trranslation.
Space Wolves are a cartoon version of what could be a fascinating and nuanced force if it were simply true to *any* version of the vikings but bad movie versions.
Egil Skallagrimsson serving the emperor! Frikkin awesome! H, Beam Piper's Space Vikings! Frikkin awesome! Goofy over-the-top Viking caricatures?
BronzeJon wrote:Hate sisters of battle, because all of the models look like lady gaga and everyone I've seen that plays them is a 40-something theres-gotta-be-something-wrong-with-that-guy super weird basement weirdo or feminist.
Grey Knights and all their overpowered crap... out of all the armies, you can have a mediocre player do really well with this army, because it is so overpowered, most other armies are not this forgiving to a lesser player.. IMO
hotsauceman1 wrote:Tau, everyone talks at my store about how they are "The only good guys" and they help others. i hate that, 40k is a world of grey.
Tau are grey, they just look white next to all the blackness. They're imperialist with a "join us or we'll shoot you" ideology and some fluff (I can't remember if it's exaclty canon though) had them putting humans into "re-education camps" and having all but an allocated minority of the humans being unable to breed, like what the Combine did in HL2.
captain collius wrote:BT- Their fluff and fans drive me nuts.
Only because you got cocky in a thread and we roflstomped you. Take your lumps like a man and move on, sheesh.
Wow, that's pretty damn harsh there from both sides, we are all entitled to our opinions. This entire thread is an invitation for people to say specifically what they do not like, it's subjective therefore how can there be a right and wrong?
EDIT - Oh and AMEN to this...
Ailaros wrote:I'm actually going to say blood angels on this one as well.
On the one hand, I dislike them because they don't deserve their own codex. Their models are just marines. The units they can take have shocking overlap with the marine codex. They're just red marines.
On the other hand, those things that are different are absurd. You don't get to move and shoot all the weapons on your non-skimmer tank... unless you're blood angels. You can't transport a vehicle inside of another (non-drop-pod) vehicle... unless you're blood angels. You don't get to deepstrike land raiders, that's absurd... unless you're blood angels. The list goes on and on of things that are so fundamentally different that it really makes me wonder if we're playing the same game here. There are core rules that every army needs to follow, the BA just seem to ignore, and for no good reason either.
Nothing special with their models, bland, OTT, warporn fluff that breaks some of the basic fluff principles of the game (here's looking at you, necron), and then on top of this, you add a bunch of free upgrades and nonsensical rules abridgements. More than any army, BA, as it currently exists, least belongs in the world of 40k.
Roll them back into codex marines, with dante as a special character that unlocks death company with a chapter tactic of black rage, and the 40k universe would be able to heal a little.
I personally don't like demons. Seeing as I care a bit more about fluff than tabletop rules, that's my least favourite army, for the reasons already stated by other people in this thread.
Then there's Space Wolves, because once again the fluff is just too... much. And I don't like the models that much either, not to mention my biggest rival played SW, but that's all great fun.
I didn't tick these, but BA rules (not fluff as much) are seriously bizarre, as well as GK rules. I used to like necrons alot, but now I actually hate their fluff, being one of those old school soulless machine fans.
I just Grey Knights. They are high in number here in my region. Too high, we have a 10 year old who is a bad player but he can win with grey knights as everything just doesn't die. He uses internet power lists. Just looks at my foot guard, laughs. Then all my bullets just bounce off, until my lascannonc hit but then fething cover as usual. Oh it's 5E, cover. That grass will save that lascannon shot. Hate them, they should be banished forever.
Lord Rogukiel wrote:I personally don't like demons. Seeing as I care a bit more about fluff than tabletop rules, that's my least favourite army, for the reasons already stated by other people in this thread.
Then there's Space Wolves, because once again the fluff is just too... much. And I don't like the models that much either, not to mention my biggest rival played SW, but that's all great fun.
I didn't tick these, but BA rules (not fluff as much) are seriously bizarre, as well as GK rules. I used to like necrons alot, but now I actually hate their fluff, being one of those old school soulless machine fans.
I personally miss their soulless machine oriented fluff, they have more "character" now but it's not nearly as interesting in the grand scheme of things.
As much as I hate marines I hate what has become of the Sisters of Battle. What I mean is I love them to death, but the game has made them damn near unplayable unless you use one of two very specific lists in order to continue to be competitive. Bugs the crap out of me that they are also a fluff punching bag for damn near every other army out there.
Da Boss wrote:Grey Knights as they currently stand. They should be an elites choice in Space Marine or Guard lists, not a codex in their own right. The same can be said for all marine variant chapters, but Grey Knights are the worst.
I agree. I have no problem with GKs other than that I don't feel they deserve to be a playable army of their own.
I voted grey knights, but it was a close call between them and chaos marines. Oooh thats gonna get me some dirty looks. But the reasoning behind it, is that it just seems...like a boring way to make an army. We have space marines! And...Evil space marines! And...Super-space marines! It just bores me, but thats just a personnal opinion.
Grey knights edged it because they both fall under my first reason, and are rather cheap when played against. Feels bad to lose to a tiny army, I don't mind losing to a big army, because it feels more plausable.
Some builds of IG are broken as hell, but I think that most people don't actually hate them as they see them a necessary and somewhat unique part of 40K.
Its just so much easier to build up more hate towards one of the SM armies or a xenos army that just rubs you the wrong way.
Ultra marines. Or as my friend likes to call them, the gaylords.
Why? Of all the SM chapters they are such a bunch of sickening emperor loving goody two shoes. So frikken noble and idealistic. With an ego big enough to clobber an effing titan. Not to mention being GW's poster boys. And way to many people play them around here wich kills all the variety.
Do i sound bitter? probably am... a little. Im a xenos fan for the most part and id just like to see more alien armies pop up instead of people always playing the training wheels army.
Ill shut up now.
I guess the Imperial Guard. Just plain old soldiers. Kinda boring to me.
Space Marines are a close second. I do like the Dreadnaught.
Eldar and Orks are tied for third. Eldar look weird, but the Orks just kinda ruined orcs in every other game I play. I can't take Thrall seriously anymore. Glad I picked a Blood Elf Death Knight.
Really surprised to see IG at literally the bottom of the hate with orks. Looks my armies are both cool and fun to play with nothing broken about them /trolling. Either people don't know there's multiple choice enabled, or they just hate SW/GK/BA way more. I know where I live, we get a fair amount of IG hate, to the point that I modeled my commander in the "haters gonna hate" style walk just because I was sick of it...
As for who I dislike the most, I put Dark Eldar, but that's only because I've never played regular eldar. I dislike any army that doesn't put up a real fight. Chasing skimmers all game just for him to move one onto each of my objectives (because apparently a 30 man platoon has no way of stopping a skimmer coming right at them) just isn't fun. But that may be local players, and not the army. They look like they may be an ok army in the hands of certain people.
Second place goes to, you guessed it, Space wolves, but for a bit of a different reason than you might think. Everyone who plays them around here does the Long Fang spam style. 4 players, and they all have almost identical lists. If there was some variety, I probably wouldn't mind, but it's the same thing, EVERY. SINGLE. TIME. The only one that gets a by is the guy who uses his Iron Warriors as counts as wolves, and that's only because they look awesome .
Heck I'd even put up with that stupid power that lets them snipe my commissars if they would just mix things up a bit.
As for Grey Knights and Blood Angles, never played either, but I feel like I should be glad for that. Neither struck me as a "fun" army to play with or against, so I'm glad I don't deal with them. May make a fluffy inquisitor henchman list sometime though. Wouldn't be too hard with all the IG stuff I have...
SIsters of Battle are mine. I dont have anything overly personal against them. I dont mind women fighting in grim dark future. I think it's just the whole idea of Catholic church in space. Hasn't tickled my fancy yet!
But Orks? Let me tell ya...
Grey elder wrote:Everyone who isn't Space Wolves, why you might ask?
Because who doesn't love the Ubermensch.
But in all honesty its the fact that the other armies can't take giant dogs, thats why In the grim darkness of 40K there is only SPACE WOLVES!
Now somebody feed me/
This, + Space Vikings, who drink and swear and generally have a good time, instead of being all "hurr durr everything is grim and we're monks who cant live without being way too over the top".
Orks. I'm just not a real fan of how they fit in with everything. I don't like the humor that they bring into the game. If I wanted to laugh at something then I would go watch comedy central. I don't want it or need it in this game. They are the only army I could do without in this game and the only one that I wouldn't ever want to play
There was a story in Fear the Alien about the Tau attacking a world, and a Raven Guard Marine gets stranded in the middle of a wasteland with a guardsman. They wind up on a farm where Kroot are eating everybody, and making a quilt out of their skin. Long story short: I think that the Kroot make the Tau a little grimdarkier. What other races eat there foes? (don't say Tyranids)
Ignatius wrote:Orks. I'm just not a real fan of how they fit in with everything. I don't like the humor that they bring into the game.
Then you're not getting all of the rest of the jokes. Grimdark is ultradry british absurdist humor. Orks are probably the least witty army (and thus most understandable for their humor), but that doesn't mean that the rest of the environment isn't humorous.
They need to take their bright, hopeful, goody-goody view/outlook of the universe, jump into their frakking Gundams and get back into the Anime they were ripped out of.
They are damaging my GrimDark with their very presence, and they need to be removed.
Necronboy wrote:There was a story in Fear the Alien about the Tau attacking a world, and a Raven Guard Marine gets stranded in the middle of a wasteland with a guardsman. They wind up on a farm where Kroot are eating everybody, and making a quilt out of their skin. Long story short: I think that the Kroot make the Tau a little grimdarkier. What other races eat there foes? (don't say Tyranids)
I think orks eat some races if they win, but I'm not 100% on that. I know they'll eat grots, and sometimes mention how tasty certain species are. It's usually played to comedic effect (grot fails something, ork gets mad and eats him) or for grimdark.
Orks can be incredibly grimdark when they feel like it. Destroying entire planets just because they can, might makes right mentality, and enslaving entire planets just to turn their population into slaves for munition factories, etc. Most people just choose to not show it because we get plenty grimdark with the other races. Argue all you want, but without races like the orks and tau to shake things up a bit, things would get stale in a hurry. Sometimes you need to have a little contrast to show just how bad everything else is.
Evileyes wrote:I voted grey knights, but it was a close call between them and chaos marines. Oooh thats gonna get me some dirty looks. But the reasoning behind it, is that it just seems...like a boring way to make an army. We have space marines! And...Evil space marines! And...Super-space marines! It just bores me, but thats just a personnal opinion.
I'd have to agree that they really need to rework things about the chaos marines; bring back the ancient evil b@st@rds who roam around in the eye of terror, ruling over daemon worlds, instead of them just being renegades, cuz renegades aren't going to conquer anything on their own..
On Topic:
I went with the Space wolves as my most disliked, as I am a thousand sons fan and really hate the fact they can never do wrong and get away with so much crap that other chapters are basically just wiped out for.
After them would be the Grey Knights and Necrons.
Necrons only because I really just hate some of their new fluff, Grey Knights because I hate ALL of their new fluff.
What do you know...Grey Knights were 24% of the field at Adepticon this year and after my vote they have a commanding lead at 24% as the most hated army in the game. I love it. Almost brought a tear to my eye lol
Reivax26 wrote:What do you know...Grey Knights were 24% of the field at Adepticon this year and after my vote they have a commanding lead at 24% as the most hated army in the game. I love it. Almost brought a tear to my eye lol
Last Year went to a Tournament with my Club Chairman, he had a Daemon Army. Last game of 5, he played Grey knights. He is a superb 40k Player and tabled the Grey Knights Army by turn 3. It was incredible, the GK player went absolutely berserk "That cannot happen, they are designed specifically to kill Daemons", but Jonno simply told him "if you don't know how to play just buying GK's isn't enough to win" he was a bit unlucky, but his tactics were crap and Jonnos Daemons just refused to battle on his terms, and literally ripped their small force apart.
Problem is, not many of us are superb players (I'm talking Grand Tournament level winners here) so GK being forgiving and uber-powered means to most of us we dread the damn GK's.
I like all armies in a sense. All of them have a certain appeal let it be fluff, looks, and gameplay. However I do have a least favorite, and they are Black Templars. The reason is... It irks me a little that a second founding chapter has its own codex, and before some says "well BA, SW, and DA have their own codex's and they are Marines" argument, this is what I have to say. BA, DA, and SW are first founding chapters with their own establish themes that they "own" in a sense. To me it seems that BT are a bunch of mushed up ideas thrown into a single army.
GW was all like....."look guys we need another army"..."how about another Xeno faction?"....."no we have to many of those lets do a new marine army! yeah will give it the the knight theme GK has, the rebellious feel the SW got going, make them fighty like BA, and the same clothing designers as DA!"..."whoooo Brilliant! Promotions for everyone!"
Ultrafool wrote:I like all armies in a sense. All of them have a certain appeal let it be fluff, looks, and gameplay. However I do have a least favorite, and they are Black Templars. The reason is... It irks me a little that a second founding chapter has its own codex, and before some says "well BA, SW, and DA have their own codex's and they are Marines" argument, this is what I have to say. BA, DA, and SW are first founding chapters with their own establish themes that they "own" in a sense. To me it seems that BT are a bunch of mushed up ideas thrown into a single army.
GW was all like....."look guys we need another army"..."how about another Xeno faction?"....."no we have to many of those lets do a new marine army! yeah will give it the the knight theme GK has, the rebellious feel the SW got going, make them fighty like BA, and the same clothing designers as DA!"..."whoooo Brilliant! Promotions for everyone!"
This counts doubly so, when you consider the White Scars, Salamanders, Raven Guard, Imperial Fists and Iron Hands all get very little in Codex Space Marines. I would like to see a change in the Codex structure to "Codex Son's of Dorn" with Crimson Fists, Imperial Fists and Black templars in One book. The likes of Captain Cortez and Vladimir Pugh should have character models and stat lines. Codex Space Marines should be generic and maybe a "Codex 1st Legions" for Salamanders, Iron Hands, Raven Guard and White scars..
But all we will get is 6th Edition BT, BA , SW, GK probably.
Ultrafool wrote:I like all armies in a sense. All of them have a certain appeal let it be fluff, looks, and gameplay. However I do have a least favorite, and they are Black Templars. The reason is... It irks me a little that a second founding chapter has its own codex, and before some says "well BA, SW, and DA have their own codex's and they are Marines" argument, this is what I have to say. BA, DA, and SW are first founding chapters with their own establish themes that they "own" in a sense. To me it seems that BT are a bunch of mushed up ideas thrown into a single army.
GW was all like....."look guys we need another army"..."how about another Xeno faction?"....."no we have to many of those lets do a new marine army! yeah will give it the the knight theme GK has, the rebellious feel the SW got going, make them fighty like BA, and the same clothing designers as DA!"..."whoooo Brilliant! Promotions for everyone!"
This counts doubly so, when you consider the White Scars, Salamanders, Raven Guard, Imperial Fists and Iron Hands all get very little in Codex Space Marines. I would like to see a change in the Codex structure to "Codex Son's of Dorn" with Crimson Fists, Imperial Fists and Black templars in One book. The likes of Captain Cortez and Vladimir Pugh should have character models and stat lines. Codex Space Marines should be generic and maybe a "Codex 1st Legions" for Salamanders, Iron Hands, Raven Guard and White scars..
But all we will get is 6th Edition BT, BA , SW, GK probably.
I have been discussing something similar at my FLGS. Lots of people love to get on the "cram all marines in one codex" bandwagon. I can understand where they are coming from, at the same time I love my DA. After hours/days of (surprisingly calm and logical) debate, we agreed on a common compromise. It was to take DA and BA and roll them into one codex something like Angels of Death back in the day, and throw BT in there also. That way you would have a codex for "vanilla" marines that follow the codex astartes closely, and a codex for the chapters that do their own thing.
It would make it easier to make it so that each of the chapters can represent it's own play style. Rather than just add another 6+ IC to the already long list of special IC in the vanilla marine codex and trying to add tonnes of pages describing how each of their units would be different. That way you could still focus on making the vanilla marine codex represent the chapters it does, with all the IC it already has.
The only thing a I don't totally agree with is the idea of separating out Salamanders, iron hands, white scars, ect... from the vanilla codex into their own dex. Using them are some of the best parts of the codex. I could see maybe taking Imperial Fists and their successors (such as BT and crimson fists) and rolling them into the above codex, since IF are a founding chapter. That and creating more SM codices would probably cause more rage than 6th ed will,
To sum it up, we would then have SW, GK, SM, and the Angels of Death(or whatever you would call the other combined dex). For a total of 4, instead of 6. Not perfect, but it does reduce the number of marine codices by 2, 1/3, or 33%, whichever way you want to look at it. Xenos players win with less marine dexes, and marine players win needing less dexes to represent their marines without as much dumbing down that would need to happen to cram them in one.
Just some ideas my local gamers and I were tossing around.
Well according to the rumours there will be a Chaos Legions Codex... so I think if anything that there should be a Loyalist Legions Codex. A generic codex with different methods of fielding the army/characters that alter the army to suit each of the 1st founding chapters.
But on-topic. I hate the new GK rules, fluff all of it. They might as well BE the inquisition now... I hate the way SW have had about as much thought put into them as a peanut butter jelly sandwich... I hate BA for having some seriously messed up rules as well as some turd sandwich fluff... I hate the current C:SM for it being a lot like the blue man group and Matt Ward's unwanted love child.... I hate the Newcrons for utterly destroying their ethos/backgroud/feel/re-writing of just about everything that made them THEM... I hate IG for effectively being 10 wound heavy weapons teams and their mech pals... I hate C:CD for being so utterly weak that only the best of the best can win with them and for taking away REAL deamons from the chaos marines codex.... I hate the C:CSM for being so dull and just evil SM.... I hate BT for getting their own codex.... I hate Nids for being the obvious winners in the end.... I hate Tau for being the 'good' guys.... I hate Eldar for having pointy ears.... I hate Dark Eldar for having pointy ears and being better at being evil than chaos..... I hate Dark Angels for basically being codex emo spacemarines with a few unique special characters/wargear.... and ummmm.... yeah I have no problem with SoB and Orks. Orks make me laugh... they're plants.... and the Sisters I actually just feel sorry for, they get raped in every bit of fluff I've ever read (even the ones they don't feature in) and don't actually have their own REAL codex. That WD gak doesn't count (it's like that one person you know that no one really likes, is utterly annoying and a bit of a dweeb but doesn't realise it, so you put up with them because no one else will and you know that if you don't they'll jump off a bridge and you'd just feel really bad about it because you know you'd have to go the funeral and their mother would be a wreck and you really just don't want to have to deal with an emotionally broken woman who believed her son/daughter/hermaphrodite/offspring was actually all the things they're not because you really wouldn't want to have to lie to her face about how great her son/daughter/hermaphrodite/offspring was just in case you crack and tell her the truth which would just make you feel even worse and decide to go and join them under the bridge the quick way down.....)
Wow I'm gona have to stop staying awake for 24 hours straight and drinking so much caffeine I nearly explode and then going into a semi-coherent rant about gak. This has taken me about half an hour to write...
Grey Knights, they are better at killing the Tyranids than the Daemons. WOT?!? Their fluff has gone from badass and mysterious to childish and silly. And Draigo just gives me a headache every time I see his fluff.
Hmmm. The only races I -do- like in 40k are Imperial humans, a few Astartes Chapters (and the renegade Thousand Sons & Emperors Children) and the Orks. Rest I dislike. If I had to weedle out one I really could not stand it would be a tie between Tau, Grey Knights & Eldar (both types). But I can't pick one of those to vote for as I dislike them equally. Ho-humm.
I absolutely despise what GW did with the Grey Knights.
I couldn't care less if they're 'overpowered' or are flavor-of-the-month, there will always be some army that fills that role.
Grey Knights should never have been developed as an all-comers force, they're anti-daemon specialists and should have remained so. GW would have been better off developing Adeptus Mechanicus, an army in which preposterous walkers would make sense. I played Grey Knights in the Rogue Trader days and the newest incarnation of them was profoundly disappointing.
As an Iron Hands player, I would love to see a Codex Adeptus mechanicus.
On topic, it's clear that the GK's are despised by a significant number and I have to say after my hate for BA's, GK's are a close second. This should be a clear indication to GW to rein them in with a 6th Edition Errata or FAQ. It ain't gonna happen, I just thought I'd throw in a possible solution.
toxic_ninja_78 wrote:I guess the Imperial Guard. Just plain old soldiers. Kinda boring to me.
Space Marines are a close second. I do like the Dreadnaught.
Eldar and Orks are tied for third. Eldar look weird, but the Orks just kinda ruined orcs in every other game I play. I can't take Thrall seriously anymore. Glad I picked a Blood Elf Death Knight.
Gorgarak wrote:SIsters of Battle are mine. I dont have anything overly personal against them. I dont mind women fighting in grim dark future. I think it's just the whole idea of Catholic church in space. Hasn't tickled my fancy yet!
But Orks? Let me tell ya...
Ignatius wrote:Orks. I'm just not a real fan of how they fit in with everything. I don't like the humor that they bring into the game. If I wanted to laugh at something then I would go watch comedy central. I don't want it or need it in this game. They are the only army I could do without in this game and the only one that I wouldn't ever want to play
NL_Cirrus wrote:I hate Orks, their fluff is absolutely stupid.
Just picked out all the hate on the orks.
It all depends on the light you throw on the orks, if you look at the original fluff the whole "Space hulk chant song: ere we go ere we go, ere we go, ere we goooo!" then mabye I would be inclined to agree with you.
But if you look at the whole "This is nubgrod the slayer calling, we want 1000 shootas everytime we visit" "No that shall never happen" "I have some gargants with me" "Let us have some time to consider" "Nah I feel the like letting the gargants out after all"
That's sheer brutality, they may be slow witted but they're evolved plant form perfectly engineered for combat and killing. It's only comedic if you look at their speech, but that's portrayed phonetically. If you were there I don't think you'd laugh at them, perhaps you'd change your pants.
Anyway, orks are the best and as this is a site based on the ork saying of "Dakka Dakka" are you suggesting that they should rename it to "The emperor protects" go hate elsewhere
GK. They're terrors on the tabletop, and their fluff just ROARS of overpowered Mary Sues, besides the fact that there's no reason they'd have their own codex.
I don't hate any factions. I dislike what GW has done to some of them though.
Worst offenders first: Orks moving from the galaxy's obnoxious neighbors and becoming an unstoppable force of idiot-savant, rapidly growing space fungus was just plain stupid. Orks (and their fantasy half) were always the army for the players who didn't want to take the game so seriously. I don't want my orks to be scary and galaxy consuming. I want them to be lovably destructive, making war because they don't really know how to do anything else, and doing it with panache and all sorts of wonky gadgets that kill them a fair amount of the time. In the old days, a Waaaaaaaaagh! was a rare event. Something that only happened when a warlord emerged who was so powerful he could pull that many orks together. When Orks are numberless and *poof!* into a dozen more incomprehensibly rapid-developing orks when they die, the Waaaaagh! is inevitable and really not that cool.
Honorable mentions:
Sisters going from fanatical nuns in space being turned into magical nuns in space was stupid.
Grey Knights becoming their own "We butcher everything" army when they used to be a mysterious, rarely seen force that specialized in killing daemons was a great marketing move, but I didn't like from a player standpoint. The giant Terminator carrier robot is horrible too. Not only ludicrous and ugly, but also completely out of sync with the technological aesthetic of the Imperium.
Dark Eldar. I just don't get what's to like about them unless you're an elf fanboi. Or into S&M so much that it bleeds into every aspect of your life, lol. Fetishists in Space. I thought the Dark Eldar could have been so much better executed, especially given the amount of super-creative "Chaos Eldar" armies in 2nd Edition that gave rise to GW finally making actual rules and models for Dark Eldar in an attempt to cash in. What we got just ends up being one of the less interesting, more over the top armies in the game, but without any real character or motivations. Too much "Fantasy in Space" without any real justification for existing other than "Hey, moneys!"
Space Wolves. The Rogue Trader Space Wolves were awesome. Starting in 2nd Edition, the wolf iconography got a bit too heavy. By 5th, they'd become caricatures of Space Marines.
Black Templars army codex books are just sorta silly. Another "tack on" Space Marine list that really does what the Blood Angels and Space Wolves were supposed to do already at the time (though the Wolves later evolved in a different direction). The concept of fanatical Crusadey Space Marines is cool. Hooked me in at first when they were released back in the day. The fact that all of their fluff is ludicrous and their tactics shamefully stupid doesn't help their case though.
KrimsunBaron wrote:
Just picked out all the hate on the orks.
It all depends on the light you throw on the orks, if you look at the original fluff the whole "Space hulk chant song: ere we go ere we go, ere we go, ere we goooo!" then mabye I would be inclined to agree with you.
But if you look at the whole "This is nubgrod the slayer calling, we want 1000 shootas everytime we visit" "No that shall never happen" "I have some gargants with me" "Let us have some time to consider" "Nah I feel the like letting the gargants out after all"
That's sheer brutality, they may be slow witted but they're evolved plant form perfectly engineered for combat and killing. It's only comedic if you look at their speech, but that's portrayed phonetically. If you were there I don't think you'd laugh at them, perhaps you'd change your pants.
Anyway, orks are the best and as this is a site based on the ork saying of "Dakka Dakka" are you suggesting that they should rename it to "The emperor protects" go hate elsewhere
Orks don't make me laugh, they're annoying at best, feels like they're over doing their ''fun'' side.
toxic_ninja_78 wrote:I guess the Imperial Guard. Just plain old soldiers. Kinda boring to me.
Space Marines are a close second. I do like the Dreadnaught.
Eldar and Orks are tied for third. Eldar look weird, but the Orks just kinda ruined orcs in every other game I play. I can't take Thrall seriously anymore. Glad I picked a Blood Elf Death Knight.
Gorgarak wrote:SIsters of Battle are mine. I dont have anything overly personal against them. I dont mind women fighting in grim dark future. I think it's just the whole idea of Catholic church in space. Hasn't tickled my fancy yet!
But Orks? Let me tell ya...
Ignatius wrote:Orks. I'm just not a real fan of how they fit in with everything. I don't like the humor that they bring into the game. If I wanted to laugh at something then I would go watch comedy central. I don't want it or need it in this game. They are the only army I could do without in this game and the only one that I wouldn't ever want to play
NL_Cirrus wrote:I hate Orks, their fluff is absolutely stupid.
Just picked out all the hate on the orks.
It all depends on the light you throw on the orks, if you look at the original fluff the whole "Space hulk chant song: ere we go ere we go, ere we go, ere we goooo!" then mabye I would be inclined to agree with you.
But if you look at the whole "This is nubgrod the slayer calling, we want 1000 shootas everytime we visit" "No that shall never happen" "I have some gargants with me" "Let us have some time to consider" "Nah I feel the like letting the gargants out after all"
That's sheer brutality, they may be slow witted but they're evolved plant form perfectly engineered for combat and killing. It's only comedic if you look at their speech, but that's portrayed phonetically. If you were there I don't think you'd laugh at them, perhaps you'd change your pants.
Anyway, orks are the best and as this is a site based on the ork saying of "Dakka Dakka" are you suggesting that they should rename it to "The emperor protects" go hate elsewhere
Hey guy, this is a thread asking what race i liked the least. I'm sorry that me not liking orks hurts your feelings somehow, but you getting upset about it and trying to defend them isn't going to change my opinion that's for sure.
Their whole, if I can think it, it happens feels slowed to me.
Sure it makes their gear work better than it should, but a gun without bullets shouldn't fire and a truck without gas shouldn't go forward. As for red paint making things go faster... eh.
Also, the way they talk is annoying, and they're loud as hell, at least in DoW.
I loved the concept of the old necrons being implacable alien killing machines. They were the only real alien race. Alien in that they were completely unknowable. They had a defintie purpose, but nobody really knew what it was. Even the Tyrandis were more relate-able because of their drive to feed, necrons killed people for no apparent or really understandable reason.
Reivax26 wrote:What do you know...Grey Knights were 24% of the field at Adepticon this year and after my vote they have a commanding lead at 24% as the most hated army in the game. I love it. Almost brought a tear to my eye lol
Grey Knights are my close-second choice. They should never have been made a stand-alone army but should have been kept in Daemonhunters. And then there's that GK fluff. Honestly, I could have eaten a ream of paper and puked a better codex than anything He-Who-Must-Not-Be-Named has ever dropped on an unsuspecting gaming public.
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Thatguyoverthere wrote:I can't stand the new Necrons. I hate the fluff.
I loved the concept of the old necrons being implacable alien killing machines. They were the only real alien race. Alien in that they were completely unknowable. They had a defintie purpose, but nobody really knew what it was. Even the Tyrandis were more relate-able because of their drive to feed, necrons killed people for no apparent or really understandable reason.
Veteran Sergeant wrote:Grey Knights becoming their own "We butcher everything" army when they used to be a mysterious, rarely seen force that specialized in killing daemons was a great marketing move, but I didn't like from a player standpoint.
You know this is my only real complaint about GK. The inquisition used to be this shadow organization of ultra-elites that were so awesome and so rare that basically the only place you ever saw them was as allies where ultramarines or ten imperial guard armies were already fighting somewhere and the inquisitior showed up with five grey knights and said "You're ours now. Let's go fight over here for reasons you can't know, much less comprehend." They were individualized, awesome, and over all really, really cool. The way that the rules were for them happenstantially made most players who fielded them actually field them in a way congruous with this fluff.
And then they got their own codex, so now they were everywhere. Just another mainstream army. More boring power armor. They went from rare superheroes amongst superheroes doing the absolute best at the absolute most dangerous in utter secrecy to... grey space marines. Grey space marines that a quarter of people play at big events.
I could scarcely be more let down by what happened to one of the legitimately coolest factions in the game.
The armies I don't like: Black Templars Blood Angels Chaos Daemons Chaos Space Marines Dark Angels Necrons Orks Sisters of Battle Space Wolves Tau Empire
Which one I dislike the most ... Tough call. Toss up between SW and BA. I've never liked either of them. Not since they got their own army lists back in the mists of RT. Also never liked orks - but I can see why some would find their uncivilised football hooligan ways attractive (and why such a blot on the genepool needs cleansing).
The rest I just don't like the aesthetics of, the models of, the background of, the pastiche of background of, or I just don't like them.
I'm also not fond of the Blood Angels for many of the same reasons as Ailaros is. Virtually none of their abilities are given any fluff justification. "Our vehicles all go faster...just because." Being one of the most hideous offenders. "We get this fancy gunship no one else but the Grey Knights do...just because..." Being another. "Our land raiders can be dropped from orbit onto a battlefield...just because..." Being particularly egregious.
They actually have a rather cool idea at their heart (vikings in space!), but the whole way it has been pulled of in detail, them seemingly having the monopoly on winning unwinnable fights (is there actually an instance where they have lost even once?), and additionally getting away with flipping their finger at just about any other Imperial faction (including the Inquisition for feth's sake) just disgusts me and makes them look terribly Mary-Sue. Wasted potential, imo. :(
They need to take their bright, hopeful, goody-goody view/outlook of the universe, jump into their frakking Gundams and get back into the Anime they were ripped out of.
They are damaging my GrimDark with their very presence, and they need to be removed.
So you give them a downvote because you don't know a single thing about their fluff and use basic stereotypes against everything? Give me a try.
sisters of battle: dominatrix females that get killed by everyone.
orks: idiotic green bodybuilders who don't belong in the GRIMDARK universe of 40K because they add some humour.
space marines: herp derp i hate ward ultramarines fanboy immortal angels of death.
dark eldar: S&M loving torturing people who by adding some diversity should not belong in your GRIMDARK universe.
Should i continue? /rant over
(Note i actually really like the majority of these races i was just proving a point.)
As an admittedly fluff driven loyalist Space Marine player, I just cannot stand cowardly, traitourous chaos marines of any flavor. Not a huge fan of the models either.
Unfortunately as their codex is so long in the tooth I do not get much of a chance to stomp them anymore as they seem to rarely show up in games.
I hope they get a new codex soon, so they experience a renaissance and appear more on the field with better rules that will make crushing them that more satisfying.
Im surprised that there has been so little IG hate, even though we are good on the tabletop, i guess it is kind of hard to hate the punching bag of the fluff. lol
Black Templars; the whole 'Knights Templar' shtick is kind of strange, their army list is focused entirely around encouraging the munchkins (I mean, Land Raiders as transports for Troops choices? Really? Would you give Eldar FIre Prisms as transports for Troops? No? Didn't think so), they encourage lazy painters (spray-paint black, white on the shoulders, decals, done!)...
I don't see why everyone hates Grey Knights so much, though. There's nothing wrong with the concept of the army itself; I've been playing them since around when 4e was first released, most of the rules changes were long overdue (there was no variety in the list back under the 3e Codex, for one thing, and when your Troops choices are required to take a 50pt Sergeant you can't exactly have anything resembling a reasonably-sized army...), and we purists tend to ignore most of the Ward fluff and Special Characters anyway...
I'm more against a specific net build than a faction. That being KrootspamDeathrainBroadsidespamMinHQminFirewarriorsInFishAndSomePathfinders Empire, I'm dumbfounded on how it works other than the HQ and Elite suits and Broadsides being assisted by pathfinders to max out their usefulness before the frail Kroot screen decides to flee/is wiped in combat.
I've tried this list time and time again but it kept getting nowhere.
Or is this thread about which faction we like the least in regards towards fluff and not playability/playstyle?
ChiliPowderKeg wrote:I'm more against a specific net build than a faction. That being KrootspamDeathrainBroadsidespamMinHQminFirewarriorsInFishAndSomePathfinders Empire, I'm dumbfounded on how it works other than the HQ and Elite suits and Broadsides being assisted by pathfinders to max out their usefulness before the frail Kroot screen decides to flee/is wiped in combat.
I've tried this list time and time again but it kept getting nowhere.
Or is this thread about which faction we like the least in regards towards fluff and not playability/playstyle?
To address this, I don't really hate any faction.
In all honesty it was created with only the playable side in mind, but really it has degenerated into both aspects. I just like to get a general feel for what Dakka likes and doesn't like. Since the Poll is MC and has every race, I can finally see a LITERAL layout of what is most liked and least liked. Kinda interesting! CSM and IG taking the lowest spots are a surprising outcome to me.
dajobe wrote:Im surprised that there has been so little IG hate, even though we are good on the tabletop, i guess it is kind of hard to hate the punching bag of the fluff. lol
I've been having trouble wrapping my head around this as well. I guess most people just hate other armies more and didnt know the thread is multiple choice? Where I play, we have several haters, so I expected to see IG in at least the top 5 on here.
Needless to say, being one of the least hated armies supposedly was definitely a pleasant surprise
AnomanderRake wrote:Black Templars; the whole 'Knights Templar' shtick is kind of strange, their army list is focused entirely around encouraging the munchkins (I mean, Land Raiders as transports for Troops choices? Really? Would you give Eldar FIre Prisms as transports for Troops? No? Didn't think so), they encourage lazy painters (spray-paint black, white on the shoulders, decals, done!)...
Land Raider Crusaders...which completely defeat the purpose of fielding a traditional land raider in the first place because they lack nearly all of the vehicle killing power of a traditional land raider.
yeah, such lazy painters we BT people are....actually, painting black, and painting it well, is one of the hardest things to do in painting. Yeah it starts out as pretty darn easy but as you learn it and grow as a painter, it becomes just as challenging as any other color.
Mordiggian wrote:Here's the thing. I like Vikings. I read sagas in trranslation.
Space Wolves are a cartoon version of what could be a fascinating and nuanced force if it were simply true to *any* version of the vikings but bad movie versions.
Egil Skallagrimsson serving the emperor! Frikkin awesome! H, Beam Piper's Space Vikings! Frikkin awesome! Goofy over-the-top Viking caricatures?
You know, the faction I really dislike depends on who I am playing. i think I dislike any faction that the player has tried to match personality wise. The ork player who screams waaagh and acts beligerent. The space wolf player who has way too much facial hair, is way too aggressive, and smells bad. The condescending eldar player who is happy to tell you about how his tactics crushed you, or about how his army is super weak and gw has a vendetta against eldar and thats the only reason he lost. The angsty chaos player.
Gotta say that i hate all the non-vanilla space marine factions. Im a fairly new player, but i hate the way they play and think they are just stupid fluff wise. Its like it was all written by 15 year old testosterone junkies.
Furthermore, None of them are unique really. Most of them play like beefed up SM. It is ridiculous.
Just money sinks for GW. Would of been a much better route game mechanic wise to put it all in the same codex and allow the space marine player to pick a specific chapter to make their army have a chapter theme that would come with a few extra rules/units. That way, they could of also done that with the eldar, CSM, ect... Becuse those factions have just as much uniqueness and variety that is largely glossed over.
AnomanderRake wrote:Black Templars; the whole 'Knights Templar' shtick is kind of strange, their army list is focused entirely around encouraging the munchkins (I mean, Land Raiders as transports for Troops choices? Really? Would you give Eldar FIre Prisms as transports for Troops? No? Didn't think so), they encourage lazy painters (spray-paint black, white on the shoulders, decals, done!)...
Land Raider Crusaders...which completely defeat the purpose of fielding a traditional land raider in the first place because they lack nearly all of the vehicle killing power of a traditional land raider.
yeah, such lazy painters we BT people are....actually, painting black, and painting it well, is one of the hardest things to do in painting. Yeah it starts out as pretty darn easy but as you learn it and grow as a painter, it becomes just as challenging as any other color.
Those are some handsome BT models right there. I actually quite like the BT's the whole idea of giving Guilliman the two fingers and flying off to battle anything that gets in your way on a never ending bender of destruction across the stars. Yeah that's pretty damn extreme and fits their extreme outlook.
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Eidolon wrote:You know, the faction I really dislike depends on who I am playing. i think I dislike any faction that the player has tried to match personality wise. The ork player who screams waaagh and acts beligerent. The space wolf player who has way too much facial hair, is way too aggressive, and smells bad. The condescending eldar player who is happy to tell you about how his tactics crushed you, or about how his army is super weak and gw has a vendetta against eldar and thats the only reason he lost. The angsty chaos player.
Or the Smug looking GK player that knows regardless of what happen's he'll probably win!
Eldar, I just don't like 'em.
Strangely, I like Dark Eldar, though...
Then I'd have to say GK, which sadens me as I love the Inquisitors and Assassins... And even with the new ally rules I have to have a squad of stupid GK....
captain collius wrote:BT- Their fluff and fans drive me nuts.
Only because you got cocky in a thread and we roflstomped you. Take your lumps like a man and move on, sheesh.
Dude you didn't win and your chapter is deal with it Besides every time the templars fans come out they bring out the same tired stories. We are the biggest chapter(okay but you are not a cohesive force so therefore bull.
Second Grimaldus got some dust on him whoop de doo now he is the greatest thing since sliced bread. Uhh then why does no use him ohh right that's cause he is not worth it and the model is terrible.
Third the templar organization is the stupidest thing I've ever seen so you put your less than ready young soldier in the midst of the worst of the fighting (DUMB)
Fourth Remember this each Codex is written to give a powerful fluff slant to the reader. Do you read about losses in there no. So just remember you all get your butts kicked everytime.
captain collius wrote:BT- Their fluff and fans drive me nuts.
Only because you got cocky in a thread and we roflstomped you. Take your lumps like a man and move on, sheesh.
Dude you didn't win and your chapter is deal with it Besides every time the templars fans come out they bring out the same tired stories. We are the biggest chapter(okay but you are not a cohesive force so therefore bull.
Second Grimaldus got some dust on him whoop de doo now he is the greatest thing since sliced bread. Uhh then why does no use him ohh right that's cause he is not worth it and the model is terrible.
Third the templar organization is the stupidest thing I've ever seen so you put your less than ready young soldier in the midst of the worst of the fighting (DUMB)
Fourth Remember this each Codex is written to give a powerful fluff slant to the reader. Do you read about losses in there no. So just remember you all get your butts kicked everytime.
I previously advised you to be a man and move on. Its a game centered around little plastic spacemen. Youre getting a little too butthurt.
captain collius wrote:BT- Their fluff and fans drive me nuts.
Only because you got cocky in a thread and we roflstomped you. Take your lumps like a man and move on, sheesh.
Dude you didn't win and your chapter is deal with it Besides every time the templars fans come out they bring out the same tired stories. We are the biggest chapter(okay but you are not a cohesive force so therefore bull.
Second Grimaldus got some dust on him whoop de doo now he is the greatest thing since sliced bread. Uhh then why does no use him ohh right that's cause he is not worth it and the model is terrible.
Third the templar organization is the stupidest thing I've ever seen so you put your less than ready young soldier in the midst of the worst of the fighting (DUMB)
Fourth Remember this each Codex is written to give a powerful fluff slant to the reader. Do you read about losses in there no. So just remember you all get your butts kicked everytime.
I previously advised you to be a man and move on. Its a game centered around little plastic spacemen. Youre getting a little too butthurt.
I made a point you can't counter with a legitimate counterpoint. That is not having as you put it "butthurt" that is called an argument. Also note that there are a lot of people who dislike your chapter on this very thread so you did not roflstomp you did not argue you cried. Please be an adult and go away.
Fluff-wise we own you, in fact we own everybody. Only loss you speak of is a very vague reference to DA being a bunch of heretics and taking out a BT ship. Remember when the Imperium had a little thing going called The Great Crusade and actually Got Stuff Done? Thats what we do, all day.
You came into a thread comparing BA, BT, and DA, and shot your mouth off. You had 3-4 BT fans jump on you and all you did was dig yourself deeper. Were over it. You came right in here and shot your mouth off again. You want to pretend youre the big man, like that never happened, fine. Im troll proof bro so enjoy your thread.
Are people actually fighting over which marine chapter is coolest? I mean, I dont really care for the black templar, I think their fluff is kind of boring and one dimensional, but thats just like, my opinion bro, and I hope anyone who plays an army likes them.
d3m01iti0n wrote:Fluff-wise we own you, in fact we own everybody. Only loss you speak of is a very vague reference to DA being a bunch of heretics and taking out a BT ship. Remember when the Imperium had a little thing going called The Great Crusade and actually Got Stuff Done? Thats what we do, all day.
You came into a thread comparing BA, BT, and DA, and shot your mouth off. You had 3-4 BT fans jump on you and all you did was dig yourself deeper. Were over it. You came right in here and shot your mouth off again. You want to pretend youre the big man, like that never happened, fine. Im troll proof bro so enjoy your thread.
Again. Do you have any proof? No, you have none. Just don't act like a donkey, I stated an opinion you started attacking.
d3m01iti0n wrote:Fluff-wise we own you, in fact we own everybody. Only loss you speak of is a very vague reference to DA being a bunch of heretics and taking out a BT ship. Remember when the Imperium had a little thing going called The Great Crusade and actually Got Stuff Done? Thats what we do, all day.
You came into a thread comparing BA, BT, and DA, and shot your mouth off. You had 3-4 BT fans jump on you and all you did was dig yourself deeper. Were over it. You came right in here and shot your mouth off again. You want to pretend youre the big man, like that never happened, fine. Im troll proof bro so enjoy your thread.
Again. Do you have any proof? No, you have none. Just don't act like a donkey, I stated an opinion you started attacking.
I know I'm not a Mod or anything, but children, STOP. Take it to PM's this thread is not the place for this.
As a playable faction, I'd say I have the biggest problem with Grey Knights. They are a single Chapter (though perhaps larger than 1000 dudes) who have to cover the entire Imperium, and are used for surgical strikes against a very specific enemy.
Them being portrayed as a standing force with tanks and other hardware designed for open warfare just seems silly.
d3m01iti0n wrote:Fluff-wise we own you, in fact we own everybody. Only loss you speak of is a very vague reference to DA being a bunch of heretics and taking out a BT ship. Remember when the Imperium had a little thing going called The Great Crusade and actually Got Stuff Done? Thats what we do, all day.
You came into a thread comparing BA, BT, and DA, and shot your mouth off. You had 3-4 BT fans jump on you and all you did was dig yourself deeper. Were over it. You came right in here and shot your mouth off again. You want to pretend youre the big man, like that never happened, fine. Im troll proof bro so enjoy your thread.
I always laugh when, in the midst of these heated nerguments, people begin to refer to their preferred faction of plastic toy soldiers, in the first person plural.
captain collius wrote:BT- Their fluff and fans drive me nuts.
Only because you got cocky in a thread and we roflstomped you. Take your lumps like a man and move on, sheesh.
Dude you didn't win and your chapter is deal with it Besides every time the templars fans come out they bring out the same tired stories. We are the biggest chapter(okay but you are not a cohesive force so therefore bull.
Second Grimaldus got some dust on him whoop de doo now he is the greatest thing since sliced bread. Uhh then why does no use him ohh right that's cause he is not worth it and the model is terrible.
Third the templar organization is the stupidest thing I've ever seen so you put your less than ready young soldier in the midst of the worst of the fighting (DUMB)
Fourth Remember this each Codex is written to give a powerful fluff slant to the reader. Do you read about losses in there no. So just remember you all get your butts kicked everytime.
I'll go ahead and chime on on this, but I'm not gonna get angry or anyone. First we are the biggest chapter, and I do find that kinda cool. I know it is a tired argument, but I like it because it has the same feeling as the Crusades themselves. The Crusades had many armies that were working in tandem, but not quite in with each other at all times. This is extremely like their current organization and the correlation between the two I find quite cool. If you take no interest in The Crusades IRL than the Black Templars will interest you a whole lot less. This IMO is one of those things.
The story with Grimaldus is just like any other ridiculous SM story, and has it's cool parts while being over the top. You can go ahead and generalize it by using your "dust on him" analogy, but if you have ever read the book the story isn't all that bad. Sadly our Codex is quite old and he is obviously outdated, and as such a bad choice for the current game. I don't find his model to be particularly bad, just not one of the best out there so I can understand why you have no love for it.
Your third point is a bit misplaced. On the tabletop it's exactly what you said, run the youngins into battle and have them take all the wounds. However the lore points it out to be much more the Initiate's choice to send them forward or hang back. Each Neophyte gets one Initiate that is charged with protecting and training them. It would be their call whether the Neophyte would advance, or sit back and watch while he showed them how to do it. This is one of my favorite parts of the fluff that is sadly not so represented on the tabletop, as who doesn't love a Master - Pupil situation? It's pretty cool from a Space Marine perspective. I would rather be a Neophyte, get to know my Initiate, grow to be as good as him and than fight along side him than be a Scout in a Scout regiment, and than get thrown into my all new duties as a full fledged Astarte's. Additionally you may actually survive longer being surrounded by Space Marines rather than running off on your own and having some Kroot laughably ambush and eat you.
And fourth is entirely spot on. If anyone doesn't think the BT take some nasty casualties at times they weren't reading the fluff. However, just like the real Crusades while taking a lot of casualties they usually inflicted just as many once they broke the lines and had the enemies fleeing. I see the BT in the same light and they play that way on the table. This is part of why I like them too, as it gives them less of the "Movie Marine" syndrome where you feel like they are suppose to be unstoppable monsters. BT get there only through working together and advancing as one group.
That is my opinion on it. If you can't at least understand the PoV but not share it, which should be do-able after that explanation, than nothing else is worth being said.
GalacticDefender wrote:Why so much Grey Knight hate? I've got a friend who plays GK, and it is quite a fun army to fight and play. (I've borrowed them a few times)
I think it comes down to a few things, but mainly two. One is that the general consensus seems to be that their fluff was changed for the worse. People don't really like them in the current iteration, and their overall popularity at the FLGS makes it even worse as they should be one of the more rare sights in the universe. The second would be that they are the people abused the most in the tournament seen. All armies can be fun to play with and play against, but it's all about not bringing those net lists and using your own brain to think of what you want to play. If you are just a mindless follower of the internet and win because of it, I think it generates a lot of hate. Since GK are one of the only people who can reliably do this, the hate goes to them and and the player equally.
Farseer Mael Dannan wrote:I think it comes down to a few things, but mainly two. One is that the general consensus seems to be that their fluff was changed for the worse. People don't really like them in the current iteration, and their overall popularity at the FLGS makes it even worse as they should be one of the more rare sights in the universe. The second would be that they are the people abused the most in the tournament seen. All armies can be fun to play with and play against, but it's all about not bringing those net lists and using your own brain to think of what you want to play. If you are just a mindless follower of the internet and win because of it, I think it generates a lot of hate. Since GK are one of the only people who can reliably do this, the hate goes to them and and the player equally.
I disagree with this entirely. As someone who plays gk, I am happy to say that one of the more interesting factions got an actually good codex, one that isnt total garbage. And furthermore, people have been sobbing tears over this 'netlisters' boogie man for years. Good players dont lose to netlists, which is proven because the same guys seem to do well in every tournament they enter.
Eidolon wrote:
I disagree with this entirely. As someone who plays gk, I am happy to say that one of the more interesting factions got an actually good codex, one that isnt total garbage. And furthermore, people have been sobbing tears over this 'netlisters' boogie man for years. Good players dont lose to netlists, which is proven because the same guys seem to do well in every tournament they enter.
I was not stating that those were my personal opinions about GK, I was explaining to him why they had 20%+ of the vote...since he asked why all the GK hate. The reason I gave is exactly why there is GK hate, whether you agree with it or not is your own stance. I like them better than a lot of other races and think that they are cool. It is noted by their abundance in the tournament scene that they do have a lot more power behind them than some other Codex, but they are also still one of the newest SM codex released so this makes sense.
Haven't been playing that long... well two games total a 2k with a borrowed DE army and a 500 point with my DA army. I don't hate one or other and its because hate is too much effort. So far, fluff wise, I think it would have to be... I don't know.
Chaos Daemons. The idea that they are on the material plane often enough to warrant an entire codex (especially with no mortal forces to instigate their summoning represented) and they just smacked of cash grab from Chaos players. Plus all the artwork is Blanche. I've seen grade school artwork with more attention to proportion and detail. The whole book literally makes me nauseous to even flip through.
SlaveToDorkness wrote:Chaos Daemons. The idea that they are on the material plane often enough to warrant an entire codex (especially with no mortal forces to instigate their summoning represented) and they just smacked of cash grab from Chaos players. Plus all the artwork is Blanche. I've seen grade school artwork with more attention to proportion and detail. The whole book literally makes me nauseous to even flip through.
Would chaos Daemons really care about Proportion? It's like the old daemons in the older books about christian demons and various "evil" types of gods that looked unearthly compared to others.
Sisters going from fanatical nuns in space being turned into magical nuns in space was stupid.
They've always been, they even had a faith mechanic back when they were introduced in 2nd edition. Though far different from todays, they also had the saints and all the other sort of things...
Hating Orks with some of these other factions around is like asking your most hated food to eat and picking chocolate when 4 flavours of dog turd are available as options.
Sisters going from fanatical nuns in space being turned into magical nuns in space was stupid.
They've always been, they even had a faith mechanic back when they were introduced in 2nd edition. Though far different from todays, they also had the saints and all the other sort of things...
Negative Ghostrider. Need to go back and read that 2E book again. The Sacred Rites were rituals and chants that whipped up the Sisters and applied various psychological effects. Frenzy, Hatred, Immune to Fear, +1 Ld, etc. The only remotely magical effect was to give them a save against psychic attacks but it was explained as a mental block, not a faith based shield. There was nothing magical about the Sisters. No suddenly getting magically stronger or faster, no magically havin AP1 shots, no magically having an invulnerable save.
Nope. The Sisters of 2E were just loony religious fanatics who foolishly worshiped a withered psychic vegetable. The new ones are granted magical powers from their god, who isn't actually a god, and wno refused to be venerated as such when he was alive.
Like my sig says, it's like Khorne granting his powers to someone who planted fields of flowers simply because they were utterly convinced that Khorne was the Chaos God of Botany.
SlaveToDorkness wrote:Chaos Daemons. The idea that they are on the material plane often enough to warrant an entire codex (especially with no mortal forces to instigate their summoning represented) and they just smacked of cash grab from Chaos players. Plus all the artwork is Blanche. I've seen grade school artwork with more attention to proportion and detail. The whole book literally makes me nauseous to even flip through.
I agree and disagree. I feel that demons should have been a larger part of the chaos marine book, and that there should have been rules for a demon heavy force in that codex. And yeah, I am not a fan of Blanche's work. On the other hand, their in game mechanics make for a really unique army, and the way the models look means you can create a really good looking army with a lot of variety. If I was going to build an army purely to paint, it would be demons.
vossyvo wrote:Hating Orks with some of these other factions around is like asking your most hated food to eat and picking chocolate when 4 flavours of dog turd are available as options.
Why does it seem that the ork supporters are one of the biggest complainers of others opinions?
Im a BA and Ultramarine player , and I understand why people hate us. I don't mind that people hate orks as well I just think its a strange decision lol.
Sisters going from fanatical nuns in space being turned into magical nuns in space was stupid.
They've always been, they even had a faith mechanic back when they were introduced in 2nd edition. Though far different from todays, they also had the saints and all the other sort of things...
Negative Ghostrider. Need to go back and read that 2E book again. The Sacred Rites were rituals and chants that whipped up the Sisters and applied various psychological effects. Frenzy, Hatred, Immune to Fear, +1 Ld, etc. The only remotely magical effect was to give them a save against psychic attacks but it was explained as a mental block, not a faith based shield. There was nothing magical about the Sisters. No suddenly getting magically stronger or faster, no magically havin AP1 shots, no magically having an invulnerable save.
Nope. The Sisters of 2E were just loony religious fanatics who foolishly worshiped a withered psychic vegetable. The new ones are granted magical powers from their god, who isn't actually a god, and wno refused to be venerated as such when he was alive.
Like my sig says, it's like Khorne granting his powers to someone who planted fields of flowers simply because they were utterly convinced that Khorne was the Chaos God of Botany.
Pretty sure if you have faith, you can do everything.
You can even fly, for about 2 seconds, before you fall
Veteran Sergeant wrote:
...it's like Khorne granting his powers to someone who planted fields of flowers simply because they were utterly convinced that Khorne was the Chaos God of Botany.
Sisters going from fanatical nuns in space being turned into magical nuns in space was stupid.
They've always been, they even had a faith mechanic back when they were introduced in 2nd edition. Though far different from todays, they also had the saints and all the other sort of things...
Negative Ghostrider. Need to go back and read that 2E book again. The Sacred Rites were rituals and chants that whipped up the Sisters and applied various psychological effects. Frenzy, Hatred, Immune to Fear, +1 Ld, etc. The only remotely magical effect was to give them a save against psychic attacks but it was explained as a mental block, not a faith based shield. There was nothing magical about the Sisters. No suddenly getting magically stronger or faster, no magically havin AP1 shots, no magically having an invulnerable save.
Nope. The Sisters of 2E were just loony religious fanatics who foolishly worshiped a withered psychic vegetable. The new ones are granted magical powers from their god, who isn't actually a god, and wno refused to be venerated as such when he was alive.
Like my sig says, it's like Khorne granting his powers to someone who planted fields of flowers simply because they were utterly convinced that Khorne was the Chaos God of Botany.
Pretty sure if you have faith, you can do everything.
You can even fly, for about 2 seconds, before you fall
"I believe I can Flyyyy....AAAAAAAARRRRRRRGGGGHHHHH! ::SPLAT!!!::
Eidolon, I can totally respect that. They are unique(ly handicapped) in how they play, and I can see the draw somewhat. Although some of their models are butt-ugly. One reason as well that I loath them is their WHFB book as well. Before 8th came around they were hideously broken. It felt like GW didn't want anyone playing anything but CDs.
I honestly don't dislike any. While some of the chapters that have codices I think could be rolled into a larger book, what I really want is another army. More variety! Playing against the same armies all the time gets dull.
If they did a Mechanicus army, I'd break my solemn oath to only stick to Tyranids, and probably sell the Salamanders I have to help fund it.
captain collius wrote:BT- Their fluff and fans drive me nuts.
Only because you got cocky in a thread and we roflstomped you. Take your lumps like a man and move on, sheesh.
Dude you didn't win and your chapter is deal with it Besides every time the templars fans come out they bring out the same tired stories. We are the biggest chapter(okay but you are not a cohesive force so therefore bull.
Second Grimaldus got some dust on him whoop de doo now he is the greatest thing since sliced bread. Uhh then why does no use him ohh right that's cause he is not worth it and the model is terrible.
Third the templar organization is the stupidest thing I've ever seen so you put your less than ready young soldier in the midst of the worst of the fighting (DUMB)
Fourth Remember this each Codex is written to give a powerful fluff slant to the reader. Do you read about losses in there no. So just remember you all get your butts kicked everytime.
I'll go ahead and chime on on this, but I'm not gonna get angry or anyone. First we are the biggest chapter, and I do find that kinda cool. I know it is a tired argument, but I like it because it has the same feeling as the Crusades themselves. The Crusades had many armies that were working in tandem, but not quite in with each other at all times. This is extremely like their current organization and the correlation between the two I find quite cool. If you take no interest in The Crusades IRL than the Black Templars will interest you a whole lot less. This IMO is one of those things.
The story with Grimaldus is just like any other ridiculous SM story, and has it's cool parts while being over the top. You can go ahead and generalize it by using your "dust on him" analogy, but if you have ever read the book the story isn't all that bad. Sadly our Codex is quite old and he is obviously outdated, and as such a bad choice for the current game. I don't find his model to be particularly bad, just not one of the best out there so I can understand why you have no love for it.
Your third point is a bit misplaced. On the tabletop it's exactly what you said, run the youngins into battle and have them take all the wounds. However the lore points it out to be much more the Initiate's choice to send them forward or hang back. Each Neophyte gets one Initiate that is charged with protecting and training them. It would be their call whether the Neophyte would advance, or sit back and watch while he showed them how to do it. This is one of my favorite parts of the fluff that is sadly not so represented on the tabletop, as who doesn't love a Master - Pupil situation? It's pretty cool from a Space Marine perspective. I would rather be a Neophyte, get to know my Initiate, grow to be as good as him and than fight along side him than be a Scout in a Scout regiment, and than get thrown into my all new duties as a full fledged Astarte's. Additionally you may actually survive longer being surrounded by Space Marines rather than running off on your own and having some Kroot laughably ambush and eat you.
And fourth is entirely spot on. If anyone doesn't think the BT take some nasty casualties at times they weren't reading the fluff. However, just like the real Crusades while taking a lot of casualties they usually inflicted just as many once they broke the lines and had the enemies fleeing. I see the BT in the same light and they play that way on the table. This is part of why I like them too, as it gives them less of the "Movie Marine" syndrome where you feel like they are suppose to be unstoppable monsters. BT get there only through working together and advancing as one group.
That is my opinion on it. If you can't at least understand the PoV but not share it, which should be do-able after that explanation, than nothing else is worth being said.
I like your explanation of your points and feeling on the subject. I cannot disagree with any of your points. You were able to discuss them and put them down in writing. Thank you for your view I think I understand what drew you to his chapter.
Milisim wrote:I don't understand all this anti tau / not grim Dark stuff either...
Disliking them based on they dont want to rape, pillage, murder and eradicate everyone who opposes them is idiotic.
Anyone who thinks that is cool should take a tour of Auschwitz and get back to me on how cool it actually is.
I strongly disagree with this. By that logic, everyone should dislike Chaos, and the Imperium, and just about everything besides Tau. Though Tau aren't my least favorite army, part of what makes 40k so awesome is that there are no clear good guys and bad guys. Disliking the Tau because they are not grim dark makes perfect sense in such a setting.
Back on topic. My least favorite faction is Newcrons. To me, their fluff is essentially "We'll totally own you cuz we're Tomb Kings in spaaaaace!" Also, their rules don't seem to be much better, though I'm not all that familiar with them.
Shas'o_Longshot wrote:Oh dear, let the Tau bashing commence... Apparently mind controlled militant cow-people that are hinted to be genocidal if you don't agree to join them isn't grim-dark enough, but cockney mushroom men are fine >.<
I have no preferences, fluffwise. I just appreciate such a wide variety of factions
Dont miss understand, I like to think of my Tau as extremly dark. However he asked what do I dislike to most and I said what I disliked the most and gave my reason.
In a few hours you are going to see a lot of anti SMs I assure you
If i could combine the Dark Angels and Blood Angels colors i would but it is not Christmas in 40k land
it's the 41st millenium, there are millions of worlds, with tons and tons of alien races. You have Tyranids aliens, robot aliens (ROBOTS!), and Orks (ORKS!) And the limit of your science fiction creative imagination is...ahem......humans in suits?! are.you.freaking.kidding.me.
That's what does it for you? Genetically mutated and modified humans in space suits. In space. Ruh ruh really?! Self-righteous do-gooders serving some pretentious emperor in space. Yeah, a dead honey badger has a more vivid imagination.
"Evil will always triumph, because good is dumb."
Exactly what part of "sci-fi" did some of these SM players get?! They should have their own game, devoid of alien worlds and races. Call it "Sporkhammer 20th Century". Tangtastic.
it's the 41st millenium, there are millions of worlds, with tons and tons of alien races. You have Tyranids aliens, robot aliens (ROBOTS!), and Orks (ORKS!) And the limit of your science fiction creative imagination is...ahem......humans in suits?! are.you.freaking.kidding.me.
That's what does it for you? Genetically mutated and modified humans in space suits. In space. Ruh ruh really?! Self-righteous do-gooders serving some pretentious emperor in space. Yeah, a dead honey badger has a more vivid imagination.
"Evil will always triumph, because good is dumb."
Exactly what part of "sci-fi" did some of these SM players get?! They should have their own game, devoid of alien worlds and races. Call it "Sporkhammer 20th Century". Tangtastic.
its called starship troppers, that is why there are so many SM fans out there, for me i love the primarchs and only a few chapters i prefer the D.Eldar or other evil factions but I always answer to my sci-fi roots of starship troppers
Automatically Appended Next Post: I would say necrons or orks, tired of them fluff wise and tired of seeing them. Dark Eldar need more love but even i know they are fragile as hell
yeah I hear you there. tongue in cheek mostly. but but...
look alls I'm saying' is that you don't have to leave the atmosphere if the aliens in the 40k universe are too scary for you. you can play your own game right here. call it "Texas Border Patrol 2012…Hammer". see, them aliens ain't too scary now are they kid? Go on, shoot 'em up with your SPACE SHOTGUNS.
I love dark eldar, i like the draw of the tyranids. If i may ask what are the alien races space elves, walking DOS boxes, orks who are so much like their fantasy cousins it gets boring.
Sniff wrote:yeah I hear you there. tongue in cheek mostly. but but...
look alls I'm saying' is that you don't have to leave the atmosphere if the aliens in the 40k universe are too scary for you. you can play your own game right here. call it "Texas Border Patrol 2012…Hammer". see, them aliens ain't too scary now are they kid? Go on, shoot 'em up with your SPACE SHOTGUNS.
Thank you, that was fantastic.
I would say however that SS troopers (the original Heinlein book, not the 90s catastrophe) is a huge reason as to why I play BA. I actually really want to find a way to get a half a dozen 2.5" tall drop pods and position them on a base roughly the size of a drop pod so that each marine has his own launch capsule for my army, positioned so that they're still falling so as to give them the same general height of a drop pod as well.
hell my profile picture is an artists rendition of the SST mobile infantries power armour.
Sniff wrote:yeah I hear you there. tongue in cheek mostly. but but...
look alls I'm saying' is that you don't have to leave the atmosphere if the aliens in the 40k universe are too scary for you. you can play your own game right here. call it "Texas Border Patrol 2012…Hammer". see, them aliens ain't too scary now are they kid? Go on, shoot 'em up with your SPACE SHOTGUNS.
aliens, which ones space high elves man aren't they spooky, space dark elves so evil, space skeletons beep boop beep, orks while cool aren't exactly an original alien idea seeing that fantasy is full of them, tyranids are original, imps are original, chaos daemons are cool make no sense though.
I try not to think of Chaos Deamons as angels and deamons kind of deamons. I try to look at them as aliens that exist on another plane of reality (the warp) that exist every where but the doorways to the material realm are peoples minds or the Eye of Terror. It stops me from going WTF are devils doing in a sci-fi game...
SlaveToDorkness wrote:Chaos Daemons. The idea that they are on the material plane often enough to warrant an entire codex (especially with no mortal forces to instigate their summoning represented) and they just smacked of cash grab from Chaos players. Plus all the artwork is Blanche. I've seen grade school artwork with more attention to proportion and detail. The whole book literally makes me nauseous to even flip through.
So you think art by John Blanche looks like it was done by someone in grade school?
PIC:
Spoiler:
Lol I'm a John Blanche fan. I think he captures the grimdark feel the best out of all the Games Workshop artists.
(Don't know if that pic loaded properly, but I think everyone has seen that picture.)
Space Wolves, we love wolves all of our positions contain the word wolf, and we even ride wolves. At least Blood Angels are funny in that they prance around in golden armour that shows their glorious abs and even more hilarious their nipples. Have always considered making a chapter called the "Golden Angels" that use Blood Angels rules, have golden armour for everyone (duh) and spam assault marines and vanguard vets. Almost a hundred guys prancing around the battlefield in golden armour at 2000 points.
Buttons wrote:Space Wolves, we love wolves all of our positions contain the word wolf, and we even ride wolves. At least Blood Angels are funny in that they prance around in golden armour that shows their glorious abs and even more hilarious their nipples. Have always considered making a chapter called the "Golden Angels" that use Blood Angels rules, have golden armour for everyone (duh) and spam assault marines and vanguard vets. Almost a hundred guys prancing around the battlefield in golden armour at 2000 points.
I hate myself for saying this, but at least they don't cover themselves in the flea ridden fur of the creatures who consider their best friends... SW.... or decide that ''those girls over there seem to be immune to Chaos... just like us... lets wear their skin and blood as decorations....'' *cough* GK *cough*.... instead they prance around the field of battle like a vampire from twilight saying ''look at me, look at me! You looked didn't you? Now I'm going to have to bite your face off... Oh curses now I have to paint my armour black... Don't look at me, don't look at me!''
it's the 41st millenium, there are millions of worlds, with tons and tons of alien races. You have Tyranids aliens, robot aliens (ROBOTS!), and Orks (ORKS!) And the limit of your science fiction creative imagination is...ahem......humans in suits?! are.you.freaking.kidding.me.
That's what does it for you? Genetically mutated and modified humans in space suits. In space. Ruh ruh really?! Self-righteous do-gooders serving some pretentious emperor in space. Yeah, a dead honey badger has a more vivid imagination.
"Evil will always triumph, because good is dumb."
Exactly what part of "sci-fi" did some of these SM players get?! They should have their own game, devoid of alien worlds and races. Call it "Sporkhammer 20th Century". Tangtastic.
I think a big appeal of space marines is how much easier they are to connect to compared to say, tyranids, dark eldar, or orks. While in a lot of ways marines are inhuman, and what they do often isnt good, its a human survival thing. Take a more extreme chapter, the flesh tearers. Their bloodthirsty rampages are very hard to relate to, and a lot of their story isnt something people can directly relate to. I have never gone on a rampage, nor did I grow up in some extremely harsh jungle environment. But the idea that marines are the very best of humanity, both in intellect and physical prowess is there. And these people, in the process of becoming a Flesh Tearer, sacrifice any hope of having a happy, normal life, and will basically die in an extremely violent fashion after a life of warfare, is something they accept to keep the rest of humanity safe. With this though, comes an extreme variation of the curse of sanguinus.
This in a lot of ways is a tragedy, and its easier to relate to than say, a hive mind insect collective that seeks to devour worlds. Narcissistic aliens who seek to dominate everyone else by inflicting extreme amounts of pain, and are addicted to sensual stimuli. Or fungus that naturally wants to fight and has a simple tribal social order. The reason a lot of people, particularly newer people who arent so familiar with the total fluff pick marine armies is because they are easier to relate to in a personal way than the xenos ones.
I don't think SM's are easy to relate to, I think it taps into a vein of hyper machismo, especially in the Geek community, like superheroes (most of us are more like Sheldon Cooper than like Chuck Norris). The Super-Human astartes that can do everything we cannot. They run around in a giant suit of armour and kick alien ass and taking names, that have their entire innards re-arranged with new organs and capabilities. They are taller, stronger, with great endurance and metabolisms than any other human that has ever lived. They carry 20mm personal weapons that fire Rocket Propelled rounds in automatic fire, more like an IFV gun system. They appeal to the Inner child that want's to run around stomping everything with no parents to say "No".
They also wield Claymore Swords like daggers.... I cannot really relate to a Monastic Cult of Warriors with Hyper abilities but they are pretty cool.
Sniff wrote:Exactly what part of "sci-fi" did some of these SM players get?! They should have their own game, devoid of alien worlds and races. Call it "Sporkhammer 20th Century". Tangtastic.
Yeah, it's not like sci fi classics involved humans in powered armour fighting space insects.
In support of mwnciboo's viewpoint:
This is a post from BOLS on Matt Ward: http://www.lounge.belloflostsouls.net/showpost.php?p=205959&postcount=17 The tl;dr is that GK were designed with beginners in mind, in particular young males new to the hobby. (Apologies to any GK players who don't fit that description). A pertinent line about their fluff is "As older gamers, of course we can see it for the painful narm it is, but that's because they aren't written for us."
I just dislike the space marines in general, all of tthem, I mean GW could have mmade one ridiculously OP army, but then they thought 'nah lets make five of them' . Their fluff is so repeditive, its all just so boring to play against.
I do have to admit though, when i fist got the battle of macragge starter I collected marines, the most vanilla marines you could get, the smurfs.
Sniff wrote:Exactly what part of "sci-fi" did some of these SM players get?! They should have their own game, devoid of alien worlds and races. Call it "Sporkhammer 20th Century". Tangtastic.
Yeah, it's not like sci fi classics involved humans in powered armour fighting space insects.
That's the funny part about people who cry about Space Marines, in general. Originally the game was really supposed to be a miniatures/RPG hybrid. Everything in 40K has more or less existed solely for Space Marines to kill, since the beginning days of the game. It was only later that the game was evolved to more intelligently market the xenos forces and make them more desirable. Which is a good thing, because that's what allowed 40K to prosper and for the models and such to be as nice as they are today. But hating Space Marines is sorta silly. The Space Marines have five "armies" because they sell more models than all the other armies. Ultimately, the Space Marines are what make 40K iconic. Without Space Marines there is no 40K.
And hating the Space Marines for being the most popular faction is really just hating human nature. People root for the local sports team because they can identify with them. People like Space Marines because they are big, awesome, human guys. People don't identify as often with Dark Eldar because they aren't angry, sadistic elves. I mean, there's a whole psychoanalytical discussion here I'm not gonna touch with a ten foot pole where we can hypothesize about why players choose what army.
Tyranids - with their rediculous bs "give us a couple of days and we'll adapt to whatever circumstance" background. They should just be monstrous space ants without any psychic ability or other such nonsense.
Also, almost their entire freaking miniatures line has their tongue sticking out, which looks incredibly stupid on the table.
and
Sisters of Battle - who I simply believe are not worthy of being a stand-alone codex/force in the 40K universe.
I've only recently started playing recently but I've found that I don't really like the Tau and the Tyranids. The Tau lore and shootiness I'm not a fan of and I hate genestealers :p
Sniff wrote:Exactly what part of "sci-fi" did some of these SM players get?! They should have their own game, devoid of alien worlds and races. Call it "Sporkhammer 20th Century". Tangtastic.
Yeah, it's not like sci fi classics involved humans in powered armour fighting space insects.
That's the funny part about people who cry about Space Marines, in general. Originally the game was really supposed to be a miniatures/RPG hybrid. Everything in 40K has more or less existed solely for Space Marines to kill, since the beginning days of the game. It was only later that the game was evolved to more intelligently market the xenos forces and make them more desirable. Which is a good thing, because that's what allowed 40K to prosper and for the models and such to be as nice as they are today. But hating Space Marines is sorta silly. The Space Marines have five "armies" because they sell more models than all the other armies. Ultimately, the Space Marines are what make 40K iconic. Without Space Marines there is no 40K.
And hating the Space Marines for being the most popular faction is really just hating human nature. People root for the local sports team because they can identify with them. People like Space Marines because they are big, awesome, human guys. People don't identify as often with Dark Eldar because they aren't angry, sadistic elves. I mean, there's a whole psychoanalytical discussion here I'm not gonna touch with a ten foot pole where we can hypothesize about why players choose what army.
thats why i dropped my Dark Eldar and went with tyranidsi got tired of the ARRRR WE ARE PIRATES
Grey Knights... to me their just a boring looking army. I have nothing against anyone who plays them I just have little to no interest in a shiny silver army....
I wish someone would actually do a good Grey Knight Paint job in Grey rather than "Look at the Shiny, Shiny".
I think this is my favourite model of all time. Imagine a Grey Knight army done in this style.
Or maybe like this
If someone did this for their entire army, I would respect their choice on aesthetic grounds.
Otherwise it's Uber-Cheese choice, because it so generic and dull. Playing GK's is like sending an SAS Squadron to fight a conscript Platoon, so over the top it's almost ridiculous.
guyperson5 wrote:Dark Eldar because: Drugs+Psycho=BS4???
Sadism and drug use does not equal psychotic. I don't think a single Dark Eldar (in the codex fluff) is psychotic, unless I missed the part where a DE has a mental breakdown and starts hallucinating. Dark Eldar to top-tier warriors, and considering they have to kill to live, if their skills wane they might as well just kill themselves.
And, some people like the fluff, i am a fan of the catholic church and of the inquistion so in my book while it is not great it is a fun read. I think the ork and space wolves fluff is boring but thats just me
I know this is from a while ago but I just had to reply.
Ailaros wrote:I'm actually going to say blood angels on this one as well.
On the one hand, I dislike them because they don't deserve their own codex. Their models are just marines. The units they can take have shocking overlap with the marine codex. They're just red marines.
So? Dark Angels are just Green Marines, Black Templars are just Black Marines, etc, etc. In fact the Blood Angels have more differences in them than all the other marine chapters. Blood Angels get unique units like Death Company, Sanguinary Guard, Sanguinary Priests, Baal Predators, Librarian Dreadnoughts & Furioso Dreadnoughts. Thats a lot more different than you'll find in the Dark Angels book.
On the other hand, those things that are different are absurd. You don't get to move and shoot all the weapons on your non-skimmer tank... unless you're blood angels. You can't transport a vehicle inside of another (non-drop-pod) vehicle... unless you're blood angels. You don't get to deepstrike land raiders, that's absurd... unless you're blood angels. The list goes on and on of things that are so fundamentally different that it really makes me wonder if we're playing the same game here. There are core rules that every army needs to follow, the BA just seem to ignore, and for no good reason either.
We have faster vehicles because we have the Lucius pattern engine, we are not the only ones who can put a dreadnought in a Stormraven (Grey Knights can as well), the deep striking Land Raiders are coming from Thunderhawks dropping them off. Yes, we get some things different from other chapters but thats whats going to happen. We are a different chapter. You don't see me complaining about how we don't get Thunderfire Cannons.
Nothing special with their models, bland, OTT, warporn fluff that breaks some of the basic fluff principles of the game (here's looking at you, necron), and then on top of this, you add a bunch of free upgrades and nonsensical rules abridgements. More than any army, BA, as it currently exists, least belongs in the world of 40k.
The Necron thing wasn't exactly a team up. It was two opposing forces putting their differences aside to take on a bigger threat. At the end of they day they went their separate ways because of battle exhaustion. Other armies also get a ton of stuff they can have for free. Have you seen the Space Wolf Codex? Their squads get free weapons as well and also their devs can have more than four heavy weapons.
As for models, well I really like the look of The Sanguinary Guard. I think they are some really good looking models.
Roll them back into codex marines, with dante as a special character that unlocks death company with a chapter tactic of black rage, and the 40k universe would be able to heal a little.
That'll be the day I quit 40k and I bet a lot of other Blood Angel players will do the same.
[Thunderfire Cannons? What? A Vehicle that be destroyed by a Glance? ]
So what? You'll Rage quit if your Chapter gets a well deserved nerf? So you cannot see why all other SM players get a bit miffed at the BA's? I mean FAST TANKS? So they have the Lucius Engine, think about it, who would have that the white scars, maybe even the Iron Hands, but no lets give the BA a further (not required) buff.
GWHQ Discussing BA CODEX - "Oh lets give them 2 Predator Variants no-one else can have, and a special deployment type. Oh and some Uber powered CHaracters, and lets make some them in two variants normal, and Black rage. Lets then break the whole thing by having stupidly Uber-powered Snippy - Snippy Dreadnoughts, have we finished? Nah lets keep going, lets have Razorback Spamming, so they can be super-fast, super assaulty and super-mechanised, led by super-characters. Finished yet? .....Nah not yet, let's throw in that Vehicle we are working on for the GK Codex, yeah they need an edge. Opps OMG totally Forgot, these guys won't be very survivable will they? Lets give them lots of FNP options. "
Seriously I have barely scratched the surface, and you will rage quit if they nerf you slightly? I think you should be a bit more rational and objective when looking at your Codex.
EDIT [Thunderfire Cannons? What? A Vehicle that be destroyed by a Glance? You really want them have them, I'll swap all special rules for a Thunderfire ]
Bringing it back slightly more centre, I've gotta say lucky the Black Templars didn't see the BA holding hands with the 'Frakking Toasters because Baal would have been cleansed by righteous Zeal.
1-Blood angels are by no means overpowered or in need a nerf. I think its funny how many things you mention in your above post ba can get. What are you playing? 3000 point games? Nobody has the points to run characters, ravens with blood talon dreads, predators, and razor spam in a normal game. I think you should be a bit more rational and objective when looking through their codex.
2-Making dante a regular marine character that just unlocks black rage is not a 'slight nerf'. Thats destroying a lot of the appeal of the blood angels. For me it was the modeling and painting opportunity of an all jumpers army with some sanguinary guard.
3-Complaining about the fluff makes you look stupid.
Sorry but the Pole above reinforces my point, GK and BA are blantant unpopular (as are space puppies). The reasons are because of their Overpowered rules and equipment, and the justification of these rules and Equipment is bad / poor/ stupid/ contradictory fluff.
If complaining about Fluff makes me look stupid, fine but I'm pretty sure (looking at the pole above) I'm not on my own in this. 46% of people who have voted have voted for GK, BA or SW, thats a pretty damning indictment.
The fluff has been changed and re-written and added to so often that many elements have been distorted and others (Like why the BA's have so many Assault Cannons) is a bit silly. Why do the BA get so many STC's? I don't think the Ultra's have ever found one? Or how about other chapters?
EDIT - I find your defence interesting, you don't deny it's Uber-powered, you basically say it's a none issue because you cannot field all the super units in a 2000 pt battle.
You can field alot of Razorbacks in 2000 point list, You can make a Very Choppy-Choppy Jump pack list at 2000 pts with DOA and lots of FNP and Melta guns etc. The Librarian Dread with a Frag Cannon, the Furiso Dread with Blood talons. I can go on, and on, and on. Fast Vindicators? FNP is only available to Vanilla Marine Command Squads. BA can throw priests around like confetti. Sanguinary Guard are insane, throw in death company as a random (dangerous element). Seriously be objective and compare like with like, and you will see beyond doubt BA have more options and better, more aggressive options than a Vanilla Army. Even SW's with all their extra's don't quite match the BA's for sheer choice and utility.
Mephiston is one of the top characters in the Game (six S10 WS7 I7 attacks on the charge that re roll to hit), never mind Corbulo, Sanguinor Dante, Lemartes,
mwnciboo wrote:[Thunderfire Cannons? What? A Vehicle that be destroyed by a Glance?
It's still something different that what we get. I don't complain about it because I know different chapters are going to have different stuff.
So what? You'll Rage quit if your Chapter gets a well deserved nerf? So you cannot see why all other SM players get a bit miffed at the BA's? I mean FAST TANKS? So they have the Lucius Engine, think about it, who would have that the white scars, maybe even the Iron Hands, but no lets give the BA a further (not required) buff.
He wasn't talking about a slight nerf. He was talking about rolling the chapter back into the SM Codex with only Dante and Death Company as options. Of course I would quit if that happened. I spent lots on money on Sanguinary Guard, Dreadnoughts (both furioso and DC), Preists, etc, etc, only for them all to become unusuable in the game.
And then you complain because I said I would rage quit? Why not? All my models have just become invalidated, not just one or two but a good deal of them.
The Luciius Pattern Engine has been with us since the very start. It was always on the Rhino. It was there in the days of Rhino rush? It was used to get our troops into close combat quickly. So now you complain because we can shoot tanks while moving. Considering that before hand we only had assault orientated lists and would get shoot to pieces before troundling up the field then yes, I do think that giving us some firepower was justified. How about Space Marine players just wait for the next Marine Codex to get their spot back in the sunlight instead of complaining about the current ones.
I've been playing BA since 3rd ed. I had to use that stupid FAQ while all the Space Marine players were running riot on the table top. I then had to use the stupid white dwarf article that didn't include an option for a sanguinary priest other than Corbs. I've had to do all that and I patiently waited for my codex. Meanwhile SM players complain because its their turn to wait, despite the fact that they never really have to wait long. I waited and I did it without complaining, so all the Space Marine players can just wait also.
GWHQ Discussing BA CODEX - "Oh lets give them 2 Predator Variants no-one else can have, and a special deployment type. Oh and some Uber powered CHaracters, and lets make some them in two variants normal, and Black rage. Lets then break the whole thing by having stupidly Uber-powered Snippy - Snippy Dreadnoughts, have we finished? Nah lets keep going, lets have Razorback Spamming, so they can be super-fast, super assaulty and super-mechanised, led by super-characters. Finished yet? .....Nah not yet, let's throw in that Vehicle we are working on for the GK Codex, yeah they need an edge. Opps OMG totally Forgot, these guys won't be very survivable will they? Lets give them lots of FNP options. "
Such a petty argument you have there. Wah!!! Blood Angels get all the new toys meanwhile I don't get any!!!!!
We have always had Baals since the start of time. As for the characters I'm not exactly sure what in blazes you are talking about. Mephiston is tough, but is a unit in his own right so can be picked off by enemy fire. He also doesn't get an invulnerable save. Plasma and Melta kills him and also Thundernators in close combat. The Sanguinor is a bit expensive for what he does. Dante is useful when you want Sanguinary Guard or deep strike without scattering but otherwise isn't really overpowered. Honestly your argument here just screams of bitterness. Blood Angel characters are not the unstoppable force you think they are. Sure they are good but they're a lot better out there.
Seriously I have barely scratched the surface, and you will rage quit if they nerf you slightly? I think you should be a bit more rational and objective when looking at your Codex.
Like I said, you took what I said out of context. How about we just take your army Imperial Guard and just throw them in the bin. I'm sure you won't have a problem with that, will you?
Thunderfire Cannons? What? A Vehicle that be destroyed by a Glance? You really want them have them, I'll swap all special rules for a Thunderfire
Like I said, its something different that I don't get. Didn't say I wanted or didn't want one. I usually change my army list frequently because I can't stand spamming the same routine. I would use it sometimes if I had the option and a player I played against at the weekend also used one in their list.
Bringing it back slightly more centre, I've gotta say lucky the Black Templars didn't see the BA holding hands with the 'Frakking Toasters because Baal would have been cleansed by righteous Zeal.
Once again an over exaggeration and also a cheap carricature. Your inability to argue honestly really worries me. You take what I said out of context deliberately, and then try to make it out that I was arguing against some slight nerf. No I wasn't, please read it again. I was arguing against integrating my army back into codex Space Marines and cutting back the whole army list. I would quit if that happened and I know a lot of Blood Angel players would.
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Eidolon wrote:3 things.
1-Blood angels are by no means overpowered or in need a nerf. I think its funny how many things you mention in your above post ba can get. What are you playing? 3000 point games? Nobody has the points to run characters, ravens with blood talon dreads, predators, and razor spam in a normal game. I think you should be a bit more rational and objective when looking through their codex.
2-Making dante a regular marine character that just unlocks black rage is not a 'slight nerf'. Thats destroying a lot of the appeal of the blood angels. For me it was the modeling and painting opportunity of an all jumpers army with some sanguinary guard.
3-Complaining about the fluff makes you look stupid.
Have an upvote. Good post. Exactly what I was talking about.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
mwnciboo wrote:Sorry but the Pole above reinforces my point, GK and BA are blantant unpopular (as are space puppies). The reasons are because of their Overpowered rules and equipment, and the justification of these rules and Equipment is bad / poor/ stupid/ contradictory fluff.
If complaining about Fluff makes me look stupid, fine but I'm pretty sure (looking at the pole above) I'm not on my own in this. 46% of people who have voted have voted for GK, BA or SW, thats a pretty damning indictment.
The fluff has been changed and re-written and added to so often that many elements have been distorted and others (Like why the BA's have so many Assault Cannons) is a bit silly. Why do the BA get so many STC's? I don't think the Ultra's have ever found one? Or how about other chapters?
EDIT - I find your defence interesting, you don't deny it's Uber-powered, you basically say it's a none issue because you cannot field all the super units in a 2000 pt battle.
You can field alot of Razorbacks in 2000 point list, You can make a Very Choppy-Choppy Jump pack list at 2000 pts with DOA and lots of FNP and Melta guns etc. The Librarian Dread with a Frag Cannon, the Furiso Dread with Blood talons. I can go on, and on, and on. Fast Vindicators? FNP is only available to Vanilla Marine Command Squads. BA can throw priests around like confetti. Sanguinary Guard are insane, throw in death company as a random (dangerous element). Seriously be objective and compare like with like, and you will see beyond doubt BA have more options and better, more aggressive options than a Vanilla Army. Even SW's with all their extra's don't quite match the BA's for sheer choice and utility.
Mephiston is one of the top characters in the Game (six S10 WS7 I7 attacks on the charge that re roll to hit), never mind Corbulo, Sanguinor Dante, Lemartes,
Just one nitpicking before I head home from work. Librarian Dreads do not get Frag Cannons, only standard Furiosos can have them.
I might address the rest of this later if I can be bothered.
You can field alot of Razorbacks in 2000 point list
So can vanilla, wolves, templars, grey knights, as well as ig and dark eldar bringing loads of light vehicles. Whats your point?
You can make a Very Choppy-Choppy Jump pack list at 2000 pts with DOA and lots of FNP and Melta guns etc.
A list that was never good because it did 1 thing every game and was extremely vulnerable to poor rolling.
Spoiler:
The Librarian Dread with a Frag Cannon, the Furiso Dread with Blood talons.
Theyre fething dreadnoughts, they get close, they get melta'd and they die.
Fast Vindicators?
Really expensive 1 gun tank that becomes useless as soon as a weapon destroyed result is rolled. I used to run 3 vindicators in my imperial fists army. They suck. Being fast for +15 points cant make something not suck.
FNP is only available to Vanilla Marine Command Squads. BA can throw priests around like confetti.
Vulkan is only available to vanilla marine armies, I wouldnt mind my jumpers having twin linked melta.
Sanguinary Guard are insane,
Yeah, they suck.
throw in death company as a random (dangerous element).
Oh noes, not the marines who move towards the nearest thing and have few good options. BA already beat up on geq fine, theres no reason to run death company.
Seriously be objective and compare like with like, and you will see beyond doubt BA have more options and better, more aggressive options than a Vanilla Army. Even SW's with all their extra's don't quite match the BA's for sheer choice and utility
Of course the BA have more aggressive options, thats always been their thing. They are an assaulty marine army. Vanilla marines do a better job of shooting, 40k is a shooting based game, so...I am not seeing what your point is. Wolves were written by Phil Kelly, who is terrible at internal codex balance. Wolves have the most utility for their good units of anything in the game. Its just that you cant do as many builds as you can with ba. But they are a stronger book.
.
Mephiston is one of the top characters in the Game (six S10 WS7 I7 attacks on the charge that re roll to hit), never mind Corbulo, Sanguinor Dante, Lemartes,
Mephiston is pretty solid, but not being able to join a squad seriously hinders his effectiveness. He is very easy to shoot down. Corbulo is ok. Sanguinor and lemartes are garbage. Space jesus is as survivable as 3 th/ss terminators for the cost of 7 vanilla ones. Lemartes has to go with death company, which also makes him suck.
Dante is....ok. His lack of eternal warrior means he tends to die quickly, and he unlocks sanguard as troops. I think as far as the 'unlocking' marine characters go, dante belial draigo and logan, hes definitely the worst.
I am viewing this objectively, and all I end up doing is wondering if you play the same game as I do.
I looked through the BA codex andthe SW codex, i must say if i was to compare them the SW's are by far the least enteraining. The BA's have a semi-cool flavor, the dark angels should be in the space marine codex or they should have a cheap mini codex, i read their book and while it was a fun read their was nothing special their and i love the DA's. Not all fluff is perfect and not all armies are balanced the day Phil lets Matt Ward get hold of dark eldar and the eldar is the day i get nids.
yep, i agree man and i love dark angels a mini codex would be cool but no on a full priced one. If they made the DA's unique I would get a battleforce but the ravenwing one is just a white scar force. I mean why dont the Imperial Fist have one if they want to make all the big chapters have their own codex's.
Gabrial Seth wrote:yep, i agree man and i love dark angels a mini codex would be cool but no on a full priced one. If they made the DA's unique I would get a battleforce but the ravenwing one is just a white scar force. I mean why dont the Imperial Fist have one if they want to make all the big chapters have their own codex's.
Gabrial Seth wrote: I looked through the BA codex andthe SW codex, i must say if i was to compare them the SW's are by far the least enteraining. The BA's have a semi-cool flavor, the dark angels should be in the space marine codex or they should have a cheap mini codex, i read their book and while it was a fun read their was nothing special their and i love the DA's. Not all fluff is perfect and not all armies are balanced the day Phil lets Matt Ward get hold of dark eldar and the eldar is the day i get nids.
There is a lot to hate about most codexs. I expect once more people get more games in under their belt the Necron codex is going to skyrocket to the top of the OP hate train.
Some people like the idea of Knights in space, others don't.
Some people like the idea of Vikings in space, other don't.
Hating something based on fluff/models is perfectly valid. Especially when you have to look at those ugly models for 3 hours while playing them. Or if you have to listen to the fanboy vap on about his own take on Mephiston and why he is so badass for those three hours.
Hating on special rules is just as valid. There is no reason at all for DOA to even exist. Its a buff purely for the sake of buffness. No extra points spent on it, its just a gift. Making jump infantry troops established all that needed to be said about BA being the premier jump SM jump army. DOA is just the colored sprinkles on an already sweet icing.
Most codexs have something like that, and its easy to see why it rubs people the wronge way. Its bonuses just for the sake of bonuses and does nothing to make for an even/balanced playing field.
I've often said, the only way to have an even fight in 40K is to play a Matt Ward codex against a Matt Ward codex. I can understand the hate.
It bites that out of my group that plays there are 2-3 SM players a necron player who might be going eldar and a ork player. I saw a SM vs SM battle and it was boring 2 hours of the same exact strategy.
the eldar are an aquired taste i feel the same about black templars, i got tired of going to play warmachine and seeing a heavy guy with his army set up and he somehow managed to make them look horrid. But each to their own right .
Voted Necrons. Last edition they were this cool, shuffling and slow but inexorable tide of robotic undead monstrosities. Their rules and sculpts spoke of this kind of ancient, impossible to stop tide of soulless metal. Now, they're petty, bickering, million-year-old, politics laden eccentrics with pet gods. Their sculpts say the same, and somehow, now they're faster then Eldar, with higher armor and better tricksieness then the fast and tricksie races. The fact most evidence points them being OP with the 6th ed rules just makes it worse.
Tyranids. Didnt even have to think about it. They have so many extra rules, ignore so many game mechanics, and get to field so many damn things, I always feel, every time, like I'm being cheated. That isnt the only reason I dislike them, but its the one topmost on my mind. Rather than go on a tirade, I'll just say that I dislike them based not only on their game mechanics, but their back story as well as several bad experiences with Tyranids players.
I actually dislike necrons the most. Generally because I don't like most of what they do. Next to no casualties if any, nothing ever falls into disrepair, near limitless energy resources( a single deathray has enough stored power to destroy a planet), somehow overthrowing the c'tan even though they owned their souls, and lets not forget they could destroy the galaxy without sending a single warrior out and the only reason they don't is for some odd reason of compassion.
the BA has okay fluff, the necrons talk about bad fluff i mean i like the walking DOS box now i have to think of them as being idividuals that takes away most of their fun.
Too many human factions so i hate them all and they also look so primitive for the year 40000. Hate orks too but not as much since they're kinda funny in the dow games.
Jimsolo wrote:Tyranids. Didnt even have to think about it. They have so many extra rules, ignore so many game mechanics
What mechanics do they ignore?
Space wolves have one psychic power that ignores more mechanics that every other ARMY. If your going to hate something for ignoring mechanics, they should be on top of the list for Jaws alone.
Eh, I don't dislike any faction. I suppose I like Space Marines, in general, Ultramarines, specifically, the least. But I don't particularly dislike them, and even then it's got less to do with their background or how they play and more to do with how prominent they are on the table top and how GW sorta beats us over the head with them (which is understandable from a business standpoint since they're the big money maker).
It must be a regional thing. I haven't see. Ultramarines on the table since 2nd edition. For being poster boys, they're very rare in my parts. And it's a shame, my behemoth bugs would love some payback.
Erm, I meant Space Marines in general (and I'm including the seperate-codex chapters here, generally BA and SW, as I can't recall the last BT or DA army I saw) are very prominent on the tabletop, not Ultramarines specifically but I can see that that isn't clear. Sorry!
As for the Ultramarines, I just wish the Space Marine Codex paid a bit less attention to them and a bit more to the other founding chapters that aren't represented by another codex. I'm not a big fan of the Ultramarines background, and I think it's presented in a fashion that's a bit... off putting, but in the infamous words of some meme, I ain't even mad.
Gabrial Seth wrote: I looked through the BA codex andthe SW codex, i must say if i was to compare them the SW's are by far the least enteraining. The BA's have a semi-cool flavor, the dark angels should be in the space marine codex or they should have a cheap mini codex, i read their book and while it was a fun read their was nothing special their and i love the DA's. Not all fluff is perfect and not all armies are balanced the day Phil lets Matt Ward get hold of dark eldar and the eldar is the day i get nids.
I wouldn't put Dark Angels back with Marines. They are definitely a better candidate for such a thing than Blood Angels but I wouldn't put them back in with the Marines. Players who play these armies have invested their money and time into these armies, so I wouldn't do that to them.
I might could get past that they are favored above other non-sm factions by the company poducing them.
I can not ever get over how ugly the models are. Power armour legs that are smaller than the non-power armoured legs of their scouts.
Off scale Biomechanics=Terminator heads dislodged from the spine by what would be 6" to a foot if they were enlarged to their purported size.
Pauldrons are so redonculously oversized that they fall into clown shoe territory(And would allow no side to side visibility).
10 sm's in a Rhino??Really??
Don't even get me started on the S'-hawk and S'-talon
I know a lot of you will try to convince me to excuse this as heroic scale. Not buying it. Marvel does heroic scale and they look great.
Heck, Ig(except catachan arms), Deamons, Tau, Eldar, Dark Eldar, Sisters(Aging design in need of a redo), 'Nids and Necrons all have much better models.
The only army that is really as bad in Biomechanics as the SM's are the Orks, yet it works for them. They are supposed to be comical on some level.
I don't expect any one else to feel the way that I do, These are just the reasons I will never own a SM army, unless GW completely does a redo on them...
.....Maybe True-scale, where sm's are 25% taller than an average guardsman and a termi is 40% taller. Make the current Landraiders into rhinos and convert a Baneblade to be a Landraider.
(Note, these sm ideas are not mine but rather something I read on dakka that I reallly liked the idea of.)
mwnciboo wrote:I do indeed play the same game as you do, and frankly I am sick of people justifying their OP codexes.
Like I said, I didn't complain when Space Marines were flavour of the month. I had to wait 11 years before they redid the Blood Angels codex. Meanwhile you got marine codices both in 2004 and 2008. I sat there in 2008 wondering why the hell you got a new codex when other armies hadn't been updated for YEARS!!!!! Dark Eldar were still sitting there at the time using a pathetic 2nd edition codex and now you're crying your eyes out and shreiking "OMG overpowered!!!!!!" because it's your turn to wait.
Where were you when they released The Space Marines codex in 2008? Where were your cries of overpowered then?
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LoneLictor wrote:
Eidolon wrote:3-Complaining about the fluff makes you look stupid.
And complaining about complaining about the fluff doesn't?
Well they're complaing about different things. One person is complaining about somebody elses army while the other person is complaining about their behaviour.
As far as I'm concerned complaining about bad behaviour is more acceptable than being a big cry baby because they don't like some story. So what? I don't like watching soap operas but I'm not goijng to demand that other people should stop watching them and agree with me that they are rubbish.
mwnciboo wrote:Sorry but the Pole above reinforces my point, GK and BA are blantant unpopular (as are space puppies). The reasons are because of their Overpowered rules and equipment, and the justification of these rules and Equipment is bad / poor/ stupid/ contradictory fluff.
Seriously? BA are overpowered? We may be a top tier army but there are a lot of armies out there better than us. These include:
1) Grey Knights
2) Space Wolves
3) Necrons (defintely in 6th edition)
4) Dark Eldar (In 5th edition, certainly not now though)
5) Imperial Guard
Thats 5 armies that can have stronger lists than any BA list.
If complaining about Fluff makes me look stupid, fine but I'm pretty sure (looking at the pole above) I'm not on my own in this. 46% of people who have voted have voted for GK, BA or SW, thats a pretty damning indictment.
So what? They don't like the story. Guess what? I don't care. I'm pretty happy with the BA fluff.
The fluff has been changed and re-written and added to so often that many elements have been distorted and others (Like why the BA's have so many Assault Cannons) is a bit silly. Why do the BA get so many STC's? I don't think the Ultra's have ever found one? Or how about other chapters?
Oh so what, everybodys fluff gets rewritten. GW call it retconning apparently.
As for STC's, you do get units that we don't and you'll get some of ours in your next codex. You get Thunderfire Cannons and Storm Talons. Yeah, Storm Talons, those things that weren't in your codex to start off with and you didn't have anything that could be counted as a flier. Meanwhile Tyranids are still waiting for the slightest sign of their flyer, but oh noes, GW cannot let the Space Marine players suffer for a second.
In your next codex you're bound to get the Stormraven, even despite the fact that Forge World decided to give you something anyway and then made The Storm Eagle for Space Marine players. Apparently you're just not willing to wait the 11 years that we did or even the longer time that Dark Eldar players had to wait for an update.
EDIT - I find your defence interesting, you don't deny it's Uber-powered, you basically say it's a none issue because you cannot field all the super units in a 2000 pt battle.
Its top tier, but they are bigger and worse armies out there. FFS the tournie scene at the end of 5th was filled with Space Wolves, Grey Knights and Imperial Guard, but apparently you think BA were winning tournies across the country for some reason.
You can field alot of Razorbacks in 2000 point list,
I've got news for you. We were fielding those Razorbacks when we were using the White Dwarf codex before we got our proper 2010 codex. Any Space Marine army can spam Razorbacks anyway and we pay a points premium for the fast upgrade for each vehicle.
You can make a Very Choppy-Choppy Jump pack list at 2000 pts with DOA and lots of FNP and Melta guns etc.
We could take assault marines as troops back in 2nd ed if I remember correctly. Giving us assault marines as troops was just a revisit back to what we once had. Besides this, so what? Dark Angels can all have Terminators as troops? Whats your point? Those Terminators could also have Feel No Pain and Cyclone Missile Launchers and Assault Cannons. Doesn't mean anything. Doesn't mean that their army is completely outrageous, just because their army composition can be slightly different from Vanilla Marines.
The Librarian Dread with a Frag Cannon
The illegal one I can't take?
the Furiso Dread with Blood talons.
You mean the one with no ranged firepower whatsoever and will be blown apart before reaching combat? The one I have to use a STORMRAVEN for in order for it survive in the first place and then you complain about us getting Stormravens also.
How about we have a match? My Furioso Dreadnought vs your Dreadnought. I bet you blow it up with a Lascannon before I even reach combat with you. Not to mention my Blood Talons are only Strength 6, meaning I will need to roll 6s just to even GLANCE you.
I can go on, and on, and on. Fast Vindicators?
Oh our vindacators are fast now. Big deal. Get over it. Aren't you the ones with Vindacators with Power of the Machine Spirit? Or was that Codex 2004? I can't remember, but anyway it's a big cheek of you to say this when you had this advantage in the past.
FNP is only available to Vanilla Marine Command Squads. BA can throw priests around like confetti.
They cost points. It's not like we get them for nothing.
It's one priest, for 50pts without any upgrades (75pts if you want to give him a jump pack). They cost a third of the whole Assault Squad they get attached to for one guy with one wound. Freaking heck. He's not exactly hard to target and kill in combat either, well in 5th ed he wasn't. He is an independent character so you just say "I'm going to direct these attacks against your priest" and BLAM!!!! he's dead. It's way too soon to tell how good he will be under 6th but I'm actually betting a lot better.
Sanguinary Guard are insane,
Would this be The Sanguinary Guard nobody used in 5th because they were so easily killed? Honestly? You're complaing about Sanguinary Guard? 2+ armour means nothing against Plasma guns you know. Five in a squad for 200pts, oh yes, I would see why you would be so upset at them. /sarcasm
throw in death company as a random (dangerous element).
You mean those guys who were led around the board doing nothing for entire games because in 5th ed, rage meant they had to move towards the closest unit? No matter how small and insignificant?
Seriously be objective and compare like with like, and you will see beyond doubt BA have more options and better, more aggressive options than a Vanilla Army.
Thats your problem. You want me to compare them to Vanilla Marines and NOT the rest of the game. Nobody denies that your Vanilla Marines are not top tier anymore. However why should I accept that standard? There are more armies than yours in the game. You are not the be all and end all of the game. GW give you two codices in four years and all of a sudden you now complain because you no longer at the top of the chain. It won't be long before you get another one, meanwhile other armies have to wait over a decade for an update. I had to wait 11 years for one and Dark Eldar had to wait even longer. They are the ones I really feel sorry for. Not your Vanilla Marines but Dark Eldar. Wait years upon years for a new codex, they get one, and it's great and they all spend money and then when 6th came along they get hammered to shreds and Wytches become useless.
Even SW's with all their extra's don't quite match the BA's for sheer choice and utility.
Sorry, can you repeat that? I didn't hear you because those Long Fangs behind me were firing their five missile launchers at two squads on the other side of the battlefield.
Mephiston is one of the top characters in the Game (six S10 WS7 I7 attacks on the charge that re roll to hit), never mind Corbulo, Sanguinor Dante, Lemartes,
Mephiston flunked out in a character tournie and didn't even make the final stages. The Sanguinor is actually better than Mephiston in a character vs character situation. I find it completely laughable that you are complaining about Mephiston in such a manner. Yes, he is good, but he is not unstoppable and there is plenty that can kill him. HE DOESN'T GET AN INVULNERABLE SAVE. He is vulnerable to AP2 weapons. Plasma, Melta, Powerfists, Thunderhammers, Warscythes, Power Axes, Rending, etc, etc. A unti of Death Company could take care of Mephiston in Close Combat, just give them Powerfists, Thunderhammers and Infernus pistols. All you need in a space marine army is Terminators with Thunderhammers and Storm Shields and you will MAUL HIM, not just beat him, not just scrape the fight, but you will UTTERLY DESTROY HIM and thats in close combat which is supposed to be Mephys speciality. Mephiston is better suited for taking care of vehicles and normal infantry.
Stormtrooper520 wrote:What's with the hate on Grey Knights?
Some pretty bad fluff for starters.
Well at least it isn't as mashed up and horrendous as Blood Angel fluff is.
You can at least justify how Draigo survives the warp - with uber faith in the emperor that's strong enough to burn a daemon.
But mephiston... A hab-block fell on him, and somehow three days later (or was it seven? It was a magical number), survived the [black rage/red thirst] and insta-killed a horde of orks when he suddenly for no reason jumped out of several thousand tonnes of rubble.
Stormtrooper520 wrote:What's with the hate on Grey Knights?
Some pretty bad fluff for starters.
Well at least it isn't as mashed up and horrendous as Blood Angel fluff is.
You can at least justify how Draigo survives the warp - with uber faith in the emperor that's strong enough to burn a daemon.
But mephiston... A hab-block fell on him, and somehow three days later (or was it seven? It was a magical number), survived the [black rage/red thirst] and insta-killed a horde of orks when he suddenly for no reason jumped out of several thousand tonnes of rubble.
Which is more viable, I wonder..
I would say Mephiston.
Walking around the warp with no food or water for millenium while you kill Da\emons and just instantly reappear back to where they were anyway. You'd think all the Daemons would get together and go "Hey, lets all go and get Draigo. He's here alone with nobody else".
At least Mephiston is just brutal. When he kills things they stay dead and don't come back to life to plot against him. Remember in the fluff even a simple Space Marine is supposed to be able to kill things while being horendously outnumbered.
Stormtrooper520 wrote:What's with the hate on Grey Knights?
Some pretty bad fluff for starters.
Well at least it isn't as mashed up and horrendous as Blood Angel fluff is.
You can at least justify how Draigo survives the warp - with uber faith in the emperor that's strong enough to burn a daemon.
But mephiston... A hab-block fell on him, and somehow three days later (or was it seven? It was a magical number), survived the [black rage/red thirst] and insta-killed a horde of orks when he suddenly for no reason jumped out of several thousand tonnes of rubble.
Which is more viable, I wonder..
I would say Mephiston.
Walking around the warp with no food or water for millenium while you kill Da\emons and just instantly reappear back to where they were anyway. You'd think all the Daemons would get together and go "Hey, lets all go and get Draigo. He's here alone with nobody else".
At least Mephiston is just brutal. When he kills things they stay dead and don't come back to life to plot against him. Remember in the fluff even a simple Space Marine is supposed to be able to kill things while being horendously outnumbered.
It's not killing a horde that I'm on about - any good marine can. It's that no marine, no matter how angry, simply cannot lift himself out of an entire hab block that's fallen on him without help. If it was possible, he would have achieved this by day 1.
Furthermore, surviving in the warp? I have a few points:
A) Time does not flow in the warp. Death simply doesn't occur without being murdered.
B) A marine's power armour can provide sustenance by injecting nutrients/water
C) Draigo regularly gets pulled out of the warp via daemonic incursion, and can get a refill.
D) Less rediculous than mephy, because Draigo's survival is based o a lack of the laws of reality, whereas mephiston's fluff seems to ignore the fact that even marines must obey the laws of physics.
Wrakkar wrote: It's not killing a horde that I'm on about - any good marine can. It's that no marine, no matter how angry, simply cannot lift himself out of an entire hab block that's fallen on him without help. If it was possible, he would have achieved this by day 1.
Ah OK, I get you. Well I think it's fine if we considered the following.
1) Mephiston was trapped, perhaps didn't necessarily have the blocks on top of him while he was trapped. Not sure I would need to read the exact wording of the fluff. Normal people have survived after Earthquakes in rubbles of buildings over them however. So its not impossible for him to still be alive.
2) As for lifting it all. After overcoming the Black Rage his full psychic potential was unleashed and his strength was increased as well. Thats why he was always stronger and tougher than other other marines. Even before the current codex. He was S5, T5 in past editions. His strength and toughness is linked to his his now greater psychic potential in some way. So perhaps he wasn't strong enough to lift it beforehand but was strong enough afterwards. Just imagine that Mephiston just casted Sanguine Sword to make himself stronger and then lifted it up.
3) As for overcoming the Black Rage, well we just don't know about that yet, but it has been hinted he is cursed by chaos and is a future Daemon Prince. I really hope that isn't the case though. Other members of the chapter look at him like some sort of saviour for the Blood Angels in a hope to overcome the curse of the Black Rage.
Furthermore, surviving in the warp? I have a few points:
A) Time does not flow in the warp. Death simply doesn't occur without being murdered.
B) A marine's power armour can provide sustenance by injecting nutrients/water
C) Draigo regularly gets pulled out of the warp via daemonic incursion, and can get a refill.
D) Less rediculous than mephy, because Draigo's survival is based o a lack of the laws of reality, whereas mephiston's fluff seems to ignore the fact that even marines must obey the laws of physics.
OK, unaware of points A to C so I suppose that explains some things better for me. However even if Marine Armour does inject nutrients, I don't think it would last as long as Draigo being in the warp. OK, time doesn't flow or whatever but I don't see how that stops needing substance to live. Perhaps something else in the warp means he doesn't need to eat? When you read the fluff he's been about and killed nearly every Daemon going, so even if time doesn't flow, he's still been around for the equivalent of a million meals. Also I don't think Draigo is pulled out of the warp that regularly in order to speculate that he can achieve a "refill" for his armour, which is Terminator and not Power Armour but I'll just assume it can do the same thing, not to mention after the fight he gets pulled back into the warp right after it. Think about that for a minute.
Warp rift opens and Daemons start pouring out.
Grey Knight Marine: Hey it's Draigo................ Where is he is going????
Draigo: Don't worry guys I will be with you in a sec, I just need to get a nutrients cartridge to refill for my armour. You just fight them and carry on until I get back.
Grey Knight Marine: Can't we just give you it after we take care of these Daemons?
Draigo: Not really, because I will be instantly sucked back in afterwards. Oh, just keep one of them alive for me if you've killed them all before I return, just in case I haven't got refilled yet.
Grey Knight Marine: WTF????????????
As for point D, well I've explained that above. Its not impossible for someone to survive in a building rubble and the fluff clearly states his potential was increased after he overcame the Black Rage.
Wrakkar wrote: It's not killing a horde that I'm on about - any good marine can. It's that no marine, no matter how angry, simply cannot lift himself out of an entire hab block that's fallen on him without help. If it was possible, he would have achieved this by day 1.
Ah OK, I get you. Well I think it's fine if we considered the following.
1) Mephiston was trapped, perhaps didn't necessarily have the blocks on top of him while he was trapped. Not sure I would need to read the exact wording of the fluff. Normal people have survived after Earthquakes in rubbles of buildings over them however. So its not impossible for him to still be alive.
2) As for lifting it all. After overcoming the Black Rage his full psychic potential was unleashed and his strength was increased as well. Thats why he was always stronger and tougher than other other marines. Even before the current codex. He was S5, T5 in past editions. His strength and toughness is linked to his his now greater psychic potential in some way. So perhaps he wasn't strong enough to lift it beforehand but was strong enough afterwards. Just imagine that Mephiston just casted Sanguine Sword to make himself stronger and then lifted it up.
3) As for overcoming the Black Rage, well we just don't know about that yet, but it has been hinted he is cursed by chaos and is a future Daemon Prince. I really hope that isn't the case though. Other members of the chapter look at him like some sort of saviour for the Blood Angels in a hope to overcome the curse of the Black Rage.
Furthermore, surviving in the warp? I have a few points:
A) Time does not flow in the warp. Death simply doesn't occur without being murdered.
B) A marine's power armour can provide sustenance by injecting nutrients/water
C) Draigo regularly gets pulled out of the warp via daemonic incursion, and can get a refill.
D) Less rediculous than mephy, because Draigo's survival is based o a lack of the laws of reality, whereas mephiston's fluff seems to ignore the fact that even marines must obey the laws of physics.
OK, unaware of points A to C so I suppose that explains some things better for me. However even if Marine Armour does inject nutrients, I don't think it would last as long as Draigo being in the warp. OK, time doesn't flow or whatever but I don't see how that stops needing substance to live. Perhaps something else in the warp means he doesn't need to eat? When you read the fluff he's been about and killed nearly every Daemon going, so even if time doesn't flow, he's still been around for the equivalent of a million meals. Also I don't think Draigo is pulled out of the warp that regularly in order to speculate that he can achieve a "refill" for his armour, which is Terminator and not Power Armour but I'll just assume it can do the same thing, not to mention after the fight he gets pulled back into the warp right after it. Think about that for a minute.
Warp rift opens and Daemons start pouring out.
Grey Knight Marine: Hey it's Draigo................ Where is he is going????
Draigo: Don't worry guys I will be with you in a sec, I just need to get a nutrients cartridge to refill for my armour. You just fight them and carry on until I get back.
Grey Knight Marine: Can't we just give you it after we take care of these Daemons?
Draigo: Not really, because I will be instantly sucked back in afterwards. Oh, just keep one of them alive for me if you've killed them all before I return, just in case I haven't got refilled yet.
Grey Knight Marine: WTF????????????
As for point D, well I've explained that above. Its not impossible for someone to survive in a building rubble and the fluff clearly states his potential was increased after he overcame the Black Rage.
Okay, so a few things on Mephiston got cleared there.
As for Draigo getting food, imagine the warp like this:
Time does not flow - though things may happen in it, until a god or greater daemon of chaos does something, nothing ever happens.
The warp is the flow of energy, and has no physical basis - it is entirely derived of psychic energy, and sentience is metaphysical.
Daemons never need to feed until they enter "reality" because only physical bodies need physical food/energy.
Just like how daemons entering reality gaining physical form, physical beings like Draigo loose true physical form while in the warp.
Draigo is a psyker.
Thus, Draigo may maintain his "life force" by feeding off the residual energy in the warp.
Slightly more complicated than Mephiston's backstory, but unreality does that to fluff.
Wrakkar wrote: It's not killing a horde that I'm on about - any good marine can. It's that no marine, no matter how angry, simply cannot lift himself out of an entire hab block that's fallen on him without help. If it was possible, he would have achieved this by day 1.
Ah OK, I get you. Well I think it's fine if we considered the following.
1) Mephiston was trapped, perhaps didn't necessarily have the blocks on top of him while he was trapped. Not sure I would need to read the exact wording of the fluff. Normal people have survived after Earthquakes in rubbles of buildings over them however. So its not impossible for him to still be alive.
2) As for lifting it all. After overcoming the Black Rage his full psychic potential was unleashed and his strength was increased as well. Thats why he was always stronger and tougher than other other marines. Even before the current codex. He was S5, T5 in past editions. His strength and toughness is linked to his his now greater psychic potential in some way. So perhaps he wasn't strong enough to lift it beforehand but was strong enough afterwards. Just imagine that Mephiston just casted Sanguine Sword to make himself stronger and then lifted it up.
3) As for overcoming the Black Rage, well we just don't know about that yet, but it has been hinted he is cursed by chaos and is a future Daemon Prince. I really hope that isn't the case though. Other members of the chapter look at him like some sort of saviour for the Blood Angels in a hope to overcome the curse of the Black Rage.
Furthermore, surviving in the warp? I have a few points:
A) Time does not flow in the warp. Death simply doesn't occur without being murdered.
B) A marine's power armour can provide sustenance by injecting nutrients/water
C) Draigo regularly gets pulled out of the warp via daemonic incursion, and can get a refill.
D) Less rediculous than mephy, because Draigo's survival is based o a lack of the laws of reality, whereas mephiston's fluff seems to ignore the fact that even marines must obey the laws of physics.
OK, unaware of points A to C so I suppose that explains some things better for me. However even if Marine Armour does inject nutrients, I don't think it would last as long as Draigo being in the warp. OK, time doesn't flow or whatever but I don't see how that stops needing substance to live. Perhaps something else in the warp means he doesn't need to eat? When you read the fluff he's been about and killed nearly every Daemon going, so even if time doesn't flow, he's still been around for the equivalent of a million meals. Also I don't think Draigo is pulled out of the warp that regularly in order to speculate that he can achieve a "refill" for his armour, which is Terminator and not Power Armour but I'll just assume it can do the same thing, not to mention after the fight he gets pulled back into the warp right after it. Think about that for a minute.
Warp rift opens and Daemons start pouring out.
Grey Knight Marine: Hey it's Draigo................ Where is he is going????
Draigo: Don't worry guys I will be with you in a sec, I just need to get a nutrients cartridge to refill for my armour. You just fight them and carry on until I get back.
Grey Knight Marine: Can't we just give you it after we take care of these Daemons?
Draigo: Not really, because I will be instantly sucked back in afterwards. Oh, just keep one of them alive for me if you've killed them all before I return, just in case I haven't got refilled yet.
Grey Knight Marine: WTF????????????
As for point D, well I've explained that above. Its not impossible for someone to survive in a building rubble and the fluff clearly states his potential was increased after he overcame the Black Rage.
Okay, so a few things on Mephiston got cleared there.
As for Draigo getting food, imagine the warp like this:
Time does not flow - though things may happen in it, until a god or greater daemon of chaos does something, nothing ever happens.
The warp is the flow of energy, and has no physical basis - it is entirely derived of psychic energy, and sentience is metaphysical.
Daemons never need to feed until they enter "reality" because only physical bodies need physical food/energy.
Just like how daemons entering reality gaining physical form, physical beings like Draigo loose true physical form while in the warp.
Draigo is a psyker.
Thus, Draigo may maintain his "life force" by feeding off the residual energy in the warp.
Slightly more complicated than Mephiston's backstory, but unreality does that to fluff.
Thanks, thats actually cleared that one up, thanks. I always thought it was cool that Draigo was going about trying to kill Daemons in the warp, the operative word being trying. I just didn't know how he was able to do it.
Wrakkar wrote: It's not killing a horde that I'm on about - any good marine can. It's that no marine, no matter how angry, simply cannot lift himself out of an entire hab block that's fallen on him without help. If it was possible, he would have achieved this by day 1.
Ah OK, I get you. Well I think it's fine if we considered the following.
1) Mephiston was trapped, perhaps didn't necessarily have the blocks on top of him while he was trapped. Not sure I would need to read the exact wording of the fluff. Normal people have survived after Earthquakes in rubbles of buildings over them however. So its not impossible for him to still be alive.
2) As for lifting it all. After overcoming the Black Rage his full psychic potential was unleashed and his strength was increased as well. Thats why he was always stronger and tougher than other other marines. Even before the current codex. He was S5, T5 in past editions. His strength and toughness is linked to his his now greater psychic potential in some way. So perhaps he wasn't strong enough to lift it beforehand but was strong enough afterwards. Just imagine that Mephiston just casted Sanguine Sword to make himself stronger and then lifted it up.
3) As for overcoming the Black Rage, well we just don't know about that yet, but it has been hinted he is cursed by chaos and is a future Daemon Prince. I really hope that isn't the case though. Other members of the chapter look at him like some sort of saviour for the Blood Angels in a hope to overcome the curse of the Black Rage.
Furthermore, surviving in the warp? I have a few points:
A) Time does not flow in the warp. Death simply doesn't occur without being murdered.
B) A marine's power armour can provide sustenance by injecting nutrients/water
C) Draigo regularly gets pulled out of the warp via daemonic incursion, and can get a refill.
D) Less rediculous than mephy, because Draigo's survival is based o a lack of the laws of reality, whereas mephiston's fluff seems to ignore the fact that even marines must obey the laws of physics.
OK, unaware of points A to C so I suppose that explains some things better for me. However even if Marine Armour does inject nutrients, I don't think it would last as long as Draigo being in the warp. OK, time doesn't flow or whatever but I don't see how that stops needing substance to live. Perhaps something else in the warp means he doesn't need to eat? When you read the fluff he's been about and killed nearly every Daemon going, so even if time doesn't flow, he's still been around for the equivalent of a million meals. Also I don't think Draigo is pulled out of the warp that regularly in order to speculate that he can achieve a "refill" for his armour, which is Terminator and not Power Armour but I'll just assume it can do the same thing, not to mention after the fight he gets pulled back into the warp right after it. Think about that for a minute.
Warp rift opens and Daemons start pouring out.
Grey Knight Marine: Hey it's Draigo................ Where is he is going????
Draigo: Don't worry guys I will be with you in a sec, I just need to get a nutrients cartridge to refill for my armour. You just fight them and carry on until I get back.
Grey Knight Marine: Can't we just give you it after we take care of these Daemons?
Draigo: Not really, because I will be instantly sucked back in afterwards. Oh, just keep one of them alive for me if you've killed them all before I return, just in case I haven't got refilled yet.
Grey Knight Marine: WTF????????????
As for point D, well I've explained that above. Its not impossible for someone to survive in a building rubble and the fluff clearly states his potential was increased after he overcame the Black Rage.
Okay, so a few things on Mephiston got cleared there.
As for Draigo getting food, imagine the warp like this:
Time does not flow - though things may happen in it, until a god or greater daemon of chaos does something, nothing ever happens.
The warp is the flow of energy, and has no physical basis - it is entirely derived of psychic energy, and sentience is metaphysical.
Daemons never need to feed until they enter "reality" because only physical bodies need physical food/energy.
Just like how daemons entering reality gaining physical form, physical beings like Draigo loose true physical form while in the warp.
Draigo is a psyker.
Thus, Draigo may maintain his "life force" by feeding off the residual energy in the warp.
Slightly more complicated than Mephiston's backstory, but unreality does that to fluff.
Thanks, thats actually cleared that one up, thanks. I always thought it was cool that Draigo was going about trying to kill Daemons in the warp, the operative word being trying. I just didn't know how he was able to do it.
Looks like we've both resolved eachother's questions.
Wrakkar wrote: It's not killing a horde that I'm on about - any good marine can. It's that no marine, no matter how angry, simply cannot lift himself out of an entire hab block that's fallen on him without help. If it was possible, he would have achieved this by day 1.
Ah OK, I get you. Well I think it's fine if we considered the following.
1) Mephiston was trapped, perhaps didn't necessarily have the blocks on top of him while he was trapped. Not sure I would need to read the exact wording of the fluff. Normal people have survived after Earthquakes in rubbles of buildings over them however. So its not impossible for him to still be alive.
2) As for lifting it all. After overcoming the Black Rage his full psychic potential was unleashed and his strength was increased as well. Thats why he was always stronger and tougher than other other marines. Even before the current codex. He was S5, T5 in past editions. His strength and toughness is linked to his his now greater psychic potential in some way. So perhaps he wasn't strong enough to lift it beforehand but was strong enough afterwards. Just imagine that Mephiston just casted Sanguine Sword to make himself stronger and then lifted it up.
3) As for overcoming the Black Rage, well we just don't know about that yet, but it has been hinted he is cursed by chaos and is a future Daemon Prince. I really hope that isn't the case though. Other members of the chapter look at him like some sort of saviour for the Blood Angels in a hope to overcome the curse of the Black Rage.
Furthermore, surviving in the warp? I have a few points:
A) Time does not flow in the warp. Death simply doesn't occur without being murdered.
B) A marine's power armour can provide sustenance by injecting nutrients/water
C) Draigo regularly gets pulled out of the warp via daemonic incursion, and can get a refill.
D) Less rediculous than mephy, because Draigo's survival is based o a lack of the laws of reality, whereas mephiston's fluff seems to ignore the fact that even marines must obey the laws of physics.
OK, unaware of points A to C so I suppose that explains some things better for me. However even if Marine Armour does inject nutrients, I don't think it would last as long as Draigo being in the warp. OK, time doesn't flow or whatever but I don't see how that stops needing substance to live. Perhaps something else in the warp means he doesn't need to eat? When you read the fluff he's been about and killed nearly every Daemon going, so even if time doesn't flow, he's still been around for the equivalent of a million meals. Also I don't think Draigo is pulled out of the warp that regularly in order to speculate that he can achieve a "refill" for his armour, which is Terminator and not Power Armour but I'll just assume it can do the same thing, not to mention after the fight he gets pulled back into the warp right after it. Think about that for a minute.
Warp rift opens and Daemons start pouring out.
Grey Knight Marine: Hey it's Draigo................ Where is he is going????
Draigo: Don't worry guys I will be with you in a sec, I just need to get a nutrients cartridge to refill for my armour. You just fight them and carry on until I get back.
Grey Knight Marine: Can't we just give you it after we take care of these Daemons?
Draigo: Not really, because I will be instantly sucked back in afterwards. Oh, just keep one of them alive for me if you've killed them all before I return, just in case I haven't got refilled yet.
Grey Knight Marine: WTF????????????
As for point D, well I've explained that above. Its not impossible for someone to survive in a building rubble and the fluff clearly states his potential was increased after he overcame the Black Rage.
Okay, so a few things on Mephiston got cleared there.
As for Draigo getting food, imagine the warp like this:
Time does not flow - though things may happen in it, until a god or greater daemon of chaos does something, nothing ever happens.
The warp is the flow of energy, and has no physical basis - it is entirely derived of psychic energy, and sentience is metaphysical.
Daemons never need to feed until they enter "reality" because only physical bodies need physical food/energy.
Just like how daemons entering reality gaining physical form, physical beings like Draigo loose true physical form while in the warp.
Draigo is a psyker.
Thus, Draigo may maintain his "life force" by feeding off the residual energy in the warp.
Slightly more complicated than Mephiston's backstory, but unreality does that to fluff.
Thanks, thats actually cleared that one up, thanks. I always thought it was cool that Draigo was going about trying to kill Daemons in the warp, the operative word being trying. I just didn't know how he was able to do it.
Looks like we've both resolved eachother's questions.
Wrakkar wrote: It's not killing a horde that I'm on about - any good marine can. It's that no marine, no matter how angry, simply cannot lift himself out of an entire hab block that's fallen on him without help. If it was possible, he would have achieved this by day 1.
Ah OK, I get you. Well I think it's fine if we considered the following.
1) Mephiston was trapped, perhaps didn't necessarily have the blocks on top of him while he was trapped. Not sure I would need to read the exact wording of the fluff. Normal people have survived after Earthquakes in rubbles of buildings over them however. So its not impossible for him to still be alive.
2) As for lifting it all. After overcoming the Black Rage his full psychic potential was unleashed and his strength was increased as well. Thats why he was always stronger and tougher than other other marines. Even before the current codex. He was S5, T5 in past editions. His strength and toughness is linked to his his now greater psychic potential in some way. So perhaps he wasn't strong enough to lift it beforehand but was strong enough afterwards. Just imagine that Mephiston just casted Sanguine Sword to make himself stronger and then lifted it up.
3) As for overcoming the Black Rage, well we just don't know about that yet, but it has been hinted he is cursed by chaos and is a future Daemon Prince. I really hope that isn't the case though. Other members of the chapter look at him like some sort of saviour for the Blood Angels in a hope to overcome the curse of the Black Rage.
Furthermore, surviving in the warp? I have a few points:
A) Time does not flow in the warp. Death simply doesn't occur without being murdered.
B) A marine's power armour can provide sustenance by injecting nutrients/water
C) Draigo regularly gets pulled out of the warp via daemonic incursion, and can get a refill.
D) Less rediculous than mephy, because Draigo's survival is based o a lack of the laws of reality, whereas mephiston's fluff seems to ignore the fact that even marines must obey the laws of physics.
OK, unaware of points A to C so I suppose that explains some things better for me. However even if Marine Armour does inject nutrients, I don't think it would last as long as Draigo being in the warp. OK, time doesn't flow or whatever but I don't see how that stops needing substance to live. Perhaps something else in the warp means he doesn't need to eat? When you read the fluff he's been about and killed nearly every Daemon going, so even if time doesn't flow, he's still been around for the equivalent of a million meals. Also I don't think Draigo is pulled out of the warp that regularly in order to speculate that he can achieve a "refill" for his armour, which is Terminator and not Power Armour but I'll just assume it can do the same thing, not to mention after the fight he gets pulled back into the warp right after it. Think about that for a minute.
Warp rift opens and Daemons start pouring out.
Grey Knight Marine: Hey it's Draigo................ Where is he is going????
Draigo: Don't worry guys I will be with you in a sec, I just need to get a nutrients cartridge to refill for my armour. You just fight them and carry on until I get back.
Grey Knight Marine: Can't we just give you it after we take care of these Daemons?
Draigo: Not really, because I will be instantly sucked back in afterwards. Oh, just keep one of them alive for me if you've killed them all before I return, just in case I haven't got refilled yet.
Grey Knight Marine: WTF????????????
As for point D, well I've explained that above. Its not impossible for someone to survive in a building rubble and the fluff clearly states his potential was increased after he overcame the Black Rage.
Okay, so a few things on Mephiston got cleared there.
As for Draigo getting food, imagine the warp like this:
Time does not flow - though things may happen in it, until a god or greater daemon of chaos does something, nothing ever happens.
The warp is the flow of energy, and has no physical basis - it is entirely derived of psychic energy, and sentience is metaphysical.
Daemons never need to feed until they enter "reality" because only physical bodies need physical food/energy.
Just like how daemons entering reality gaining physical form, physical beings like Draigo loose true physical form while in the warp.
Draigo is a psyker.
Thus, Draigo may maintain his "life force" by feeding off the residual energy in the warp.
Slightly more complicated than Mephiston's backstory, but unreality does that to fluff.
Thanks, thats actually cleared that one up, thanks. I always thought it was cool that Draigo was going about trying to kill Daemons in the warp, the operative word being trying. I just didn't know how he was able to do it.
Looks like we've both resolved eachother's questions.
from an astectic point of view i would rather see one hundered eldar of craftworld uthwe with their garish colors, then see one space wolf and that says a lot.
I think what I hate most about space wolves, is that I am strongly considering allying them with my Imperial Guard so that I can give my power blob ATSKNF, and actually have a bad ass model to accept challenges...
Stormtrooper520 wrote:What's with the hate on Grey Knights?
Some pretty bad fluff for starters.
Well at least it isn't as mashed up and horrendous as Blood Angel fluff is.
You can at least justify how Draigo survives the warp - with uber faith in the emperor that's strong enough to burn a daemon.
But mephiston... A hab-block fell on him, and somehow three days later (or was it seven? It was a magical number), survived the [black rage/red thirst] and insta-killed a horde of orks when he suddenly for no reason jumped out of several thousand tonnes of rubble.
Which is more viable, I wonder..
I would say Mephiston.
Walking around the warp with no food or water for millenium while you kill Da\emons and just instantly reappear back to where they were anyway. You'd think all the Daemons would get together and go "Hey, lets all go and get Draigo. He's here alone with nobody else".
At least Mephiston is just brutal. When he kills things they stay dead and don't come back to life to plot against him. Remember in the fluff even a simple Space Marine is supposed to be able to kill things while being horendously outnumbered.
It's not killing a horde that I'm on about - any good marine can. It's that no marine, no matter how angry, simply cannot lift himself out of an [b]entire hab block that's fallen on him[/b] without help. If it was possible, he would have achieved this by day 1.
Furthermore, surviving in the warp? I have a few points:
A) Time does not flow in the warp. Death simply doesn't occur without being murdered.
B) A marine's power armour can provide sustenance by injecting nutrients/water
C) Draigo regularly gets pulled out of the warp via daemonic incursion, and can get a refill.
D) Less rediculous than mephy, because Draigo's survival is based o a lack of the laws of reality, whereas mephiston's fluff seems to ignore the fact that even marines must obey the laws of physics.
it's seven day's he's under the blocks, and then he rises from the grave and blah blah matt ward thought a jesus like character would be cool.
Stormtrooper520 wrote:What's with the hate on Grey Knights?
Some pretty bad fluff for starters.
Well at least it isn't as mashed up and horrendous as Blood Angel fluff is.
You can at least justify how Draigo survives the warp - with uber faith in the emperor that's strong enough to burn a daemon.
But mephiston... A hab-block fell on him, and somehow three days later (or was it seven? It was a magical number), survived the [black rage/red thirst] and insta-killed a horde of orks when he suddenly for no reason jumped out of several thousand tonnes of rubble.
Which is more viable, I wonder..
I would say Mephiston.
Walking around the warp with no food or water for millenium while you kill Da\emons and just instantly reappear back to where they were anyway. You'd think all the Daemons would get together and go "Hey, lets all go and get Draigo. He's here alone with nobody else".
At least Mephiston is just brutal. When he kills things they stay dead and don't come back to life to plot against him. Remember in the fluff even a simple Space Marine is supposed to be able to kill things while being horendously outnumbered.
It's not killing a horde that I'm on about - any good marine can. It's that no marine, no matter how angry, simply cannot lift himself out of an [b]entire hab block that's fallen on him[/b] without help. If it was possible, he would have achieved this by day 1.
Furthermore, surviving in the warp? I have a few points:
A) Time does not flow in the warp. Death simply doesn't occur without being murdered.
B) A marine's power armour can provide sustenance by injecting nutrients/water
C) Draigo regularly gets pulled out of the warp via daemonic incursion, and can get a refill.
D) Less rediculous than mephy, because Draigo's survival is based o a lack of the laws of reality, whereas mephiston's fluff seems to ignore the fact that even marines must obey the laws of physics.
it's seven day's he's under the blocks, and then he rises from the grave and blah blah matt ward thought a jesus like character would be cool.
...Such a majykul numbah...
Mephy's obviously a heretic.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Whew. 1479 votes so far.
BronzeJon wrote:
it's seven day's he's under the blocks, and then he rises from the grave and blah blah matt ward thought a jesus like character would be cool.
You do realise that this part of Blood Angels fluff was written before Matt Wards Codex of 2010. Don't you?
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Eidolon wrote:
BronzeJon wrote:
it's seven day's he's under the blocks, and then he rises from the grave and blah blah matt ward thought a jesus like character would be cool.
I thought this was the story long before matt ward ever got hired on by gw. Mephiston went nuts, joined death company, didnt die, was reborn.
Correct.
Its funny to see how someone is complaining about Matt Ward fluff that isn't even his to begin with. Massive facepalm is called for.
BronzeJon wrote:
it's seven day's he's under the blocks, and then he rises from the grave and blah blah matt ward thought a jesus like character would be cool.
You do realise that this part of Blood Angels fluff was written before Matt Wards Codex of 2010. Don't you?
IIRC this goes back to the 3rd codex which was released December 1998.
BronzeJon wrote:
it's seven day's he's under the blocks, and then he rises from the grave and blah blah matt ward thought a jesus like character would be cool.
You do realise that this part of Blood Angels fluff was written before Matt Wards Codex of 2010. Don't you?
IIRC this goes back to the 3rd codex which was released December 1998.
I know I have it.
Correct.
I have 3rd edition Codex as well. Hence why I knew this.
Out of my group it is SM's but for me it is varied. I mean 3 people use SM's, 1 ork player, me on D.Eldar, one necron player, one sisters of battle player and one imp. guard player with me looking at chaos in the new edition hoping Night Lords get unique and not be CM's iwht dumb helms.
i hate that, 
They're imperialist with a "join us or we'll shoot you" ideology and some fluff (I can't remember if it's exaclty canon though) had them putting humans into "re-education camps" and having all but an allocated minority of the humans being unable to breed, like what the Combine did in HL2.
Of all the 
deal with it Besides every time the templars fans come out they bring out the same tired stories. We are the biggest chapter(okay but you are not a cohesive force so therefore bull.
anyone. First we are the biggest chapter, and I do find that kinda cool. I know it is a tired argument, but I like it because it has the same feeling as the Crusades themselves. The Crusades had many armies that were working in tandem, but not quite in with each other at all times. This is extremely like their current organization and the correlation between the two I find quite cool. If you take no interest in The Crusades 
