Ok, So today i went to a warmachine league to see if i like that game and see if anyone is willing to help me learn a little(they did alot)
But i noticed, alot of people still dont have painted armies, and i dont mean models in the army that arent painted, i mean feilds of gray. This is the same at my 40k night.
Out of the 8-10 people ther only 3 can field a fully painted 1500 the rest have primer and show they give a little bit about painting. This may change though because we will be giving people points for the campaign for coming with a fully painted army.
But is it too much to ask people at least attempt to paint there armys? I know alot of people dont have the time but i see people buying more and never painting.
Am i asking to much?

Some just don't like to paint or haven't the time to.

I hate painting. It takes forever, and my results are usually quite sub-par.
Some of us prefer other parts of the hobby. Personally, I convert pretty much everything to some degree.

But what is the point of converting if you dont paint?

Some like modeling?

Yeah, But when you put that nice, awesome posed model on the table on painted there is no detail, it looks indistinguishable from other models.

Honestly, it can be really hard to find the time and energy to paint.

I generally really like painting and converting, but coming home from work rarely leaves me in the right mood to get into it. And I really don't like painting when I don't feel like I'm doing the best I can do.

As for always picking up new models? Shiny syndrome. We all suffer from it.

I know and much prefer painted armies as well, but just because someone is good at sculpting or reposing doesn't not instantly make them good at painting. Think of it like netball and basketball in a way. You could have both or just stick with one, they're sort of similar but different at the same time. Then there's the people who just like to watch instead.

There are several facets to this wonderful hobby of ours; Collecting, Converting, Painting, Playing and Fluff, to name some.

No one facet is more important than the other, and some people enjoy some facets above others.

No one should attempt to dictate how a given person gains enjoyment from this hobby.

It's nicer when armies are painted and it helps to distinguish between miniatures. But people are free to do what they want with their own minis

I find painting relaxing, but i'm a really really slow (and not that great) painter.

I love playing, and love converting, but painting for me is a semi-relaxing chore.

Doesn't help that i have gruesome amounts of models to paint, and it can take me a month to paint a single squad to acceptable tabletop due to nerve damage in my hands and lack of time

I'll be teaching my 6 year old to paint her first models soon, so maybe i'll get more painting in then..

Paint them. Its part of the hobby.

My paintjobs are never award winners, but it doesn't stop me painting the models.

If I didn't do something just because I wasn't good at it, I'd never get to the point where I COULD be good at it.

I'll never be brilliant at painting (I don't have the fine-motor control or vision for it) but I just don't give a sh*t enough about it to let it stop me. At least my dudes are painted. Coherently and you can tell what they are from arm's length. Which is good enough for me.

They don't have to be good enough for anyone else. It's not like I'm going to sell them. When I die, they'll probably be dumped in a box and forgotten anyway.

swordbrotherjim wrote:Paint them. Its part of the hobby.

I agree.

hotsauceman1 wrote:Ok, So today i went to a warmachine league to see if i like that game and see if anyone is willing to help me learn a little(they did alot)
But i noticed, alot of people still dont have painted armies, and i dont mean models in the army that arent painted, i mean feilds of gray. This is the same at my 40k night.
Out of the 8-10 people ther only 3 can field a fully painted 1500 the rest have primer and show they give a little bit about painting. This may change though because we will be giving people points for the campaign for coming with a fully painted army.
But is it too much to ask people at least attempt to paint there armys? I know alot of people dont have the time but i see people buying more and never painting.
Am i asking to much?

Is it too much to ask for some spell/grammar check before posting?

There, now we both sound like trolls.

swordbrotherjim wrote:Paint them. Its part of the hobby.

I missed that part of the rule book that says I have to field a fully painted army before I can play.

I enjoy the look of a well painted army just as much as the next person, but personally I'm a bit sick of the elitist attitude that people who don't paint their armies are somehow detriments to the "hobby".

There are many out there, just like myself, who do not have a single lick of artistic talent on their body. Furthermore there are plenty who have no want or drive to have their army painted. Sure you can claim that they can just take is slow, it doesn't matter if it doesn't look like pro work, etc... Well you know what? As one of those people who have tried to do it, even though I do not like doing it, no thank you. Attempting to paint my armies is a stressful venture. The results are crappy, and I'd rather look at gray/primed models then the eyesore that i'd produce.

I've been fortunate enough to squirrel away some money now and again to get others to paint my armies, but it tends to be even more expensive then purchasing the models, and that is something that is a big stretch for a lot of gamers.

So as someone who doesn't paint their own stuff, I'd like to say give it a rest. I play this game to enjoy the game, not the modelling aspects of it. You derive a little bit extra enjoyment from the modelling aspect of it, and I'm glad for you. But in the end this is my hobby, and I will do it as I like, and you have no grounds to tell me and all the others otherwise.

I really hate playing with, or against unpainted armies. So many people in my local GW use whatever the latest cheesy combo is with completely unpainted models...grr, it really winds me up. I wish they would go back to the old rules they had where if it wasn't painted you couldn't play with it.

I honestly dont get the not painting them thing. OK you might be a bad painter or lack time, but how can you stand dropping £200+ on models and have them look like crap?

You can make some effort without going overboard, for example we have a grey knights player who has painted his entire army with silver car spray paint. It doesn't look great by any means, but it looks a lot better than grey plastic.

In my opinion if you arent going to make any effort to paint then ypou might as well play with cardboard tokens.

I'm a pretty solid painter and my Everblight will most like never see paint. ^_^

I'm toot busy working on other people's pieces.

hotsauceman1 wrote:But is it too much to ask people at least attempt to paint there armys?

But is it too much to ask people at least try to put together a competent list so the game isn't a whitewhas/leave the competitive armies at home so we can have a good narrative game/not use 'counts as' models in every game/use the colour schemes from the book rather than inventing their own/[come up with your own unreasonable reasonable questions - it's fun!]?

Yes.

Some people aren't any good at painting. Some people derive no enjoyment whatsoever from painting. Some people would rather use their spare time to play the game.

Some people are all three of these things.

djones520 wrote:

swordbrotherjim wrote:Paint them. Its part of the hobby.

I missed that part of the rule book that says I have to field a fully painted army before I can play.

I enjoy the look of a well painted army just as much as the next person, but personally I'm a bit sick of the elitist attitude that people who don't paint their armies are somehow detriments to the "hobby".

There are many out there, just like myself, who do not have a single lick of artistic talent on their body. Furthermore there are plenty who have no want or drive to have their army painted. Sure you can claim that they can just take is slow, it doesn't matter if it doesn't look like pro work, etc... Well you know what? As one of those people who have tried to do it, even though I do not like doing it, no thank you. Attempting to paint my armies is a stressful venture. The results are crappy, and I'd rather look at gray/primed models then the eyesore that i'd produce.

I've been fortunate enough to squirrel away some money now and again to get others to paint my armies, but it tends to be even more expensive then purchasing the models, and that is something that is a big stretch for a lot of gamers.

So as someone who doesn't paint their own stuff, I'd like to say give it a rest. I play this game to enjoy the game, not the modelling aspects of it. You derive a little bit extra enjoyment from the modelling aspect of it, and I'm glad for you. But in the end this is my hobby, and I will do it as I like, and you have no grounds to tell me and all the others otherwise.

Amen! My painting skills are terrible, and I simply don't have the time to sit and paint an army of plastic men (with work, plus looking after the house, plus caring for my terminally-ill mother and grandparents, I barely have time to glue and play the damn game!) I'd rather spend my time playing than painting, you know, ENJOYING myself. I'm lucky that I've only encountered one guy who had a problem playing against unpainted models (and he was a TFG anyway, albeit for other reasons). Everybody else has the imagination to enjoy the game, often in a cinematic sense, without having to see finely detailed figures on the table. Maybe I'm just lucky and play with a flexible, interesting group, who knows..

Paint for the painters. Glue for the gluers. Games for the gamers. One is not more important than the other.

aosol wrote:I'm a pretty solid painter and my Everblight will most like never see paint. ^_^

I'm toot busy working on other people's pieces.

This.

I have been a gamer since 1979. You will notice I said gamer, not a painter, modeller or hobbist. A GAMER! I love the arguement that it is part of the "hobby" but that is largely subjective. Does anyone get mad at or deride those hobbiests that collect and paint but never play the game? That would be in the same vein as not painting, would it not? After all, is playing the game not part of the hobby. Is every model in your army converted? Again, part of the hobby right? I remember when Blood Bowl came out and had cardboard cut outs for counters, do you? Would you, OP, not have played because of that?
Don't get me wrong, I do enjoy a well painted army and wish I had the time, skill, patience, money etc to have one but I don't. I AM A GAMER, first last and always!!!!! If youy cannot/will not understand that then meh...
You be you and I'll be me
Happy GAMING
EKP

From the 5th ed. Rulebook:
"You will have realised by now that Warhammer 40,000 differs from normal games. There are unlimited possibilities and players must be prepared to expend time and effort collecting, assembling and painting their models and setting up their battlefields. If all this sounds like hard work, you’re right – it is! Glory on the battlefields of the far future is not won lightly."

Hard work is just too hard GEEDUBYA!

Seeing painted minis do battle for me is half the fun! Honestly, applying the base colours to a mini and doing a single wash of black or brown is not hard at all and looks quite effective for novice painters. Give it a go and don't give up so easy!

depending on the person, the army, and their situation, some just dont have the time/money/skill. one of the people i used to play with fielded unpainted models because he would rather leave them unpainted than paint them like garbage. other people i have known barely have enough free time to play 1 game a month, and have been sitting on unpainted models for years because they would rather use that free time to play than paint. the last group are the ones for whom EVERY purchase is something they have to save up for months on, and they would rather put that 5 bucks toward their next box of Marines/Boyz/ETC than a single color of paint.

That said, Marines crons and nids are the easiest army to paint for someone who does not want to take a lot of time. pick a color to be their primary, and purchase a spray paint of that color. pick 2 other colors and detail them with those colors.

It rather frustrates me when you enter a tournament and people have unpainted armies, it makes for a poor experience overall IMO. One of the things I like about tournaments is seeing other peoples armies, and admiring the time they've put into them so that they can play.

On the other hand, I have no problem with playing an unpainted army in non-competitive games. Some people like to get a list together before they start painting so they know what to paint up. Some people might spend so long on one miniature that they're gearing themselves up to painting that horde army. Some people may be daunted by painting, and are worried they'll mess up. Some people just may not like, or have the time to, paint.

Either way, painting/modelling and gaming as a hobby depend on your outlook. I know loads of people that can churn out stunning miniatures ridiculously quickly but don't game because they only like painting and modelling. I also know people who like gaming but not painting, which is fair enough too.

I have no issue with tournaments having 'must be painted' rules. Hell, back in the day the GW store had a 'must be painted' rule for games night.

Doesn't bother me in the slightest. I can see the "colour" on bare plastic minis just as easily as I saw smooth curves on my blocky LEGO when I was a kid.

If you are not going to paint your models, why not just use chits? Or print up paper pictures and put them on bases?

Painting the model is part of the game. Not just because they should be painted, but to distinguish units from one another, to show who sergeants and commanders are, and to avoid getting your unpainted models mixed with Joe's unpainted models. Unpainted models make gameplay harder, which lessens the experience.

I work hard to put a nice army on the table. Don't expect to play me if I don't see you at least trying. It's a matter of respect. You're spitting in my face when you say it doesn't matter if the models are painted or not.

Go play something else then.

Am I elitest? Sure and there is nothing wrong with that.

I'm a builder. Secondly, I'm a converter. Well, a kit-basher mostly. Lastly, I paint. For me painting is a social activity. I do it at the GW Bunker or I don't do it at all.

KGatch113 wrote:If you are not going to paint your models, why not just use chits?

Because we like the model. Duh.

KGatch113 wrote:Or print up paper pictures and put them on bases?

Because some of us enjoy modelling and converting.

KGatch113 wrote:Painting the model is part of the game.

Really? There are rules in the game for painted models? Where exactly?

KGatch113 wrote:Unpainted models make gameplay harder, which lessens the experience.

This is what the Internet refers to as "Opinion presented as fact".

As always I don't feel strongly enough about things to get worked up about it. I'm creative and enjoy painting and drawing, so I paint my army in full, but its pretty small, so I can understand why some people don't considering how much stuff some of you lot seem to own!

I don't care if people don't paint though, some people don't enjoy it.

Like I always say, there is only one thing that really irritates me about this hobby as a whole and it is the nerds who take it all far too seriously. Whinge about the cost, whinge about the rules, whinge about fluff... I cant very well chastise people that endlessly complain about everything and not say the same to people that complain about unpainted armies!

Its great seeing an army painted brilliantly, but honestly, playing the game is the exact same paint or no paint, so its no biggie is it? I enjoy myself regardless of the paint jobs, and I would even play against an army of coke can drop pods.


Poor people should be allowed fun as well right?

No mattyrm. You never feel strongly enough about things to get worked up about them, but you certainly feel strongly enough to make big sweeping (off topic) swipes at people. Oh those dastardly 'nerds' who 'take it all far too seriously'. One day you'll work up enough effort to maybe think about yelling at them. A bit!

The fact that you see many unpainted armies itself means that unpainted armies are OK to most people. You don't see a lot of armies proxied by pieces of paper, right? So, pieces of paper are not OK, even though gaming experience is the same. Why is it this way?

It's their hobby as well as yours. If they don't want to paint their plastic mans, they don't have to to make you happy.

I have various friends who do fifferent things. My brother likes to paint stuff, and is quite good at it. He'll gnerally paint the majority of an army before using it. I have a friend who paints stuff fantastically, but uses armies in any state of painting they're in. He basically buys a whole army, plays with it and paints it while he's racking up games.

I have a friend who has bought so much stuff, he simply doesn't have the time or energy to paint them. I nearly got him interested enough in Army Painter to start painting, but they discontinued his colour choice (deep blue for Crimson Fists) before he got to start.

I know someone else who paints based on hsi whim. Sometimes a year passes without anything being done, sometimes a whole portion of an army gets done in a month.

Personally, I try to paint something every night. It doesn't always work out, but I try. I have a Tyranid army that is over 50% painted and an Infinity team that is about the same. And a Vampire Counts army that hasn't been touched aside from a few skeletons.

Everyone sees painting a different way. I've also known people who haven't wanted to bother. While I like seeing 2 painted armies go at it, it's not up to me to tell people that they need tp paint their stuff.

We have this problem with a guy in our gaming group, He owns upwards of 15,000 points of various armies and has never painted them beyond undercoating.

The thing his he really wants to paint his stuff but just loses focus very quickly, he comes up with awesome ideas for them as well but just doesn't go through with them.

We sometimes put on painted only escalation tournaments (which is a great way to get stuff painted if anyone is looking for ideas to push their gaming groups painting speed along) and he will look up schemes and undercoat or use my airbrush to put down base coats then just gives up after that.

Each to their own in the end. I'd never refuse to v's him and we have even entered some 2 player tourneys together that get points based on painting as well... even though he usually gets 0 for it. It's all fun and games

I know the group I am working on getting in and playing with only allows fully painted Apoc sized armies

all I play is Apocalypse.......I look forward to only painted armies allowed

-Loki- wrote:While I like seeing 2 painted armies go at it, it's not up to me to tell people that they need tp paint their stuff.

Aye, that sums it up.

I'm not going to tell people what to do, but I must say I find playing with unpainted models infinitely puzzling. There are quite a lot of games out there; why pick one that involves painting when you don't like it ?
Besides, I don't buy the "I'm not good at it". Nobody starts good at something. It's a matter of wanting to progress. I'm not an artist, and I wouldn't describe myself as dexterous, but I can get a somewhat decent job done.

I remember how it went when I began.
At first, I didn't think about diluting the paint, and I would drown a few models under a thick, fat coat that masked the details.
I wasn't happy about it, so I then tried to mix it with water to apply thinner layers. It was already much better.
Then I thought to myself that the models were rather plain. Based on some studio pictures, I tried my hand at highlighting the edges. It took some adjustment, but the result looked great, considering where I was coming from.
After that, I realised I didn't need to cover the whole model with paint, and started doing basic shadings simply by leaving some areas with just the bare black basecoat.
Then I tried my hand at inking, with more or less success. Still need to work on that one

End result : the models looked darn good on a game board, I had realised painting wasn't rocket surgery, and above all, I felt I had achieved something. I think this is the most important part : seeing the result of your work is very gratifying. To me, it's really part of the appeal; it caters to your inner craftsman.
I'm convinced one of the reasons Space Marines sell so well is that they're easy to paint.

For the OP, and this thread in general, I think its important to acknowledge that this is principally a problem with 40k. At least from my experience of games nights in various clubs/FLGS they have by far the highest proportion of non-painted minis, I would say when I was playing 40k a lot maybe only 1 in 4 was a completed and painted army. And if I were being honest, it was a fairly important factor in me losing enthusiasm for the system. Hell, even unassembled sometimes, and some extensive proxying (the 'Carnifex as a coke tin' is not just a legend, I have seen it used! ) At the opposite end of the scale is historical stuff, in Flames of War I am struggling to think of a game I have played against a non-painted force.

Even with other GW games the percentage of painted armies is usally higher - WFB for instance (although, I would say this is probably next in line for the 'most unfinished' army line).
Reasons for this? At a guess, the players of the game are usually younger (not always, but on average), the high model count of the game (it requires real time and commitment these days to finish an army, much more than when I started with 1st/2nd edition), and perhaps the propensity of fans to play 'flavour of the month' army. The guy at my club who has not painted his marines as they switched from standard, through to Space Wolves and then Blood Angels isn't going to paint his force if he wants to use what the internet is telling him is the most powerful army to play.

As for the whole 'no one can tell me how to have fun' argument? Well, I think if you agree with the 'social contract' element of wargaming at all - i.e. that you are not just playing for yourself, but that it is a social affair and fun for both of you, then I think people should at least put in a little effort. I spent the best part of 2 years making a Pre-Heresy army, and going into a lot of effort of painting and modelling it, even though it is not exactly high standard compared to some others. But, when I have seen the same pair of legs being used by an SM player, and the army is about 6 different chapters (just 2 marines painted in each, when they get bored from painting one colour) and the same player has been fielding that same pair of legs for 6 months or more - and almost always treating his stuff like crap (because obviously he has no regard for it), then of course it makes a big impact of the game for me*. Will I enjoy the game? Possible, but nothing like as much as if it was against a painted (and assembled!) army.


* I also find there is a direct correlation between an model (usually something heavy) accidentally falling off a hill or bouncing down some stairs and breaking one of my models, and that army also being unpainted.

I can paint to a good tabletop quality or maybe even a little better. I enjoy collecting and converting minis. In most real world encounters in FLGS I would rather my opponent have not attempted to paint their army as most off what I have seen since playing 2nd edition has been utter crap. A field of shiny metal and beautiful plastic would be better than %85 of the "painted" crap I have seen over the past 16-17 years. I have collected a lot of armies from players that were finally done abusing them and the rest of us. I have spent a good amount of time and effort in stripping the layers of bad & mediocre paint off of these acquisitions. Recently I have been preparing to store them in quality cases and bought a good quality airbrush to paint them with. But it may be another 5 years before they are done.

Back when I played 40k, I didn't really make an effort to paint my Marines. Heck, I'm still that way with WM/H, but at least with that I'm making an effort.

It's not that I'm a bad painter - my 'tabletop' quality is decent enough to get compliments from the local crowd, apparently - but moreso that I just don't like painting 28mm figures.

My FoW stuff, on the other hand, is another story. I've been blazing through my Brits, and actually finally played a game last night with a fully painted army. (Well, almost fully painted. I had 3 Universal Carriers that hadn't been flocked yet, but, hey, close enough!). I've actually gone and had my friend leave his Fallschirmjager company with me, because I'm going to paint everything for him. He's got 2 unpainted 40k armies and a primed-metallic-silver-with-some-blue/purple-paint Chaos Marine army, so if I want to play against a fully painted FoW force with him, I'll have to take that into my own hands.

As to what everyone else is saying, I feel there's a difference between 'I'm never going to paint these models, and I have no interest in doing so' and 'Yeah, these models aren't painted yet, but they will be!'. A person fielding a grey/tin army is fine if he's just started out, but if it's 2 years into his collection, then the least he could do is prime them. Painting your miniatures is a part of the overall wargaming and modelling hobby, and you should at the very least make an effort to try.

If it's terrible, who cares? Keep going. I can full attest to the 'getting better over time' method. Heck, I just went back and stripped 8 tanks because I wasn't happy with how I painted them in the first place. The more you paint, the better you will become at it.

H.B.M.C. wrote:

KGatch113 wrote:Painting the model is part of the game.

Really? There are rules in the game for painted models? Where exactly?

Pride in colours for the space marines, it makes them remember their true spiritual liege and deflect energy based weaponry as well as adding to the efficiency of their targetting sensors.
It's in the section gak I made up meself, towards the back of the book a bit.

This whole subject was one of the draws of AT-43 and the Confrontation re-do for me, as well as my like for each games' (new) rules.

It meant that at the lowest common denominator, every army on the field was represented in full color. It didn't matter if you were a base-level gamer or something more, everyone's stuff looked cool, and then it only went up from there if you wanted to take the effort (like me!).

But then everyone bitched about the pre-paints, and how they wanted to paint their own models. Otherwise known as gamers want everything, and they even more seriously want there to be an issue to argue over, lol.

I can paint to a good tabletop quality or maybe even a little better. I enjoy collecting and converting minis. In most real world encounters in FLGS I would rather my opponent have not attempted to paint their army as most off what I have seen since playing 2nd edition has been utter crap. A field of shiny metal and beautiful plastic would be better than %85 of the "painted" crap I have seen over the past 16-17 years. I have collected a lot of armies from players that were finally done abusing them and the rest of us. I have spent a good amount of time and effort in stripping the layers of bad & mediocre paint off of these acquisitions. Recently I have been preparing to store them in quality cases and bought a good quality airbrush to paint them with. But it may be another 5 years before they are done.

Unfortunately it's that exact attitude that keeps lots of gamers from trying out the painting side of things, because they think they are going to be embarrassed by people who are "better". Any effort at all is better than no effort, sorry.

If someone is happy with their "sloppily" painted Orks because that's the best they can do, it beats out plastic and metal armies any day of the week. They can always get better. Several armies I look back at that I was proud of years past are poor compared to what I can do now, but they got me to this point.

To me painting is a complex art that I never really got a hang of. I actually picked up the new paints and paint tutorial book and have been just following that paint for paint for my new army.

Bunch of lazy peeps if you ask me

I should know, I'm one of them

Honestly, while playing against painted armies is preferable, I don't mind facing unpainted forces. I used to be one of those guys with not enough time or care to paint.

Now having painted a full DE army and Daemons army, I love fielding painted models. Fills me with a sense of pride seeing my painted raiders blowing up they grey bloodwolfmarineangel rhinos.

If your club has issues, implement a painting soft score/award during events. This will greatly increase the number of painted armies and people trying to paint.

helium42 wrote:

hotsauceman1 wrote:Ok, So today i went to a warmachine league to see if i like that game and see if anyone is willing to help me learn a little(they did alot)
But i noticed, alot of people still dont have painted armies, and i dont mean models in the army that arent painted, i mean feilds of gray. This is the same at my 40k night.
Out of the 8-10 people ther only 3 can field a fully painted 1500 the rest have primer and show they give a little bit about painting. This may change though because we will be giving people points for the campaign for coming with a fully painted army.
But is it too much to ask people at least attempt to paint there armys? I know alot of people dont have the time but i see people buying more and never painting.
Am i asking to much?

Is it too much to ask for some spell/grammar check before posting?

There, now we both sound like trolls.

Some people who don't use computers often tend to type poorly/they are used to social media sites. Few of the girls i know are prime examples. Much worse then the post above. They have trouble turning off their "Chat Speak" when writing papers or emailing people. Since I started working a more serious job I actually went "super professional" in the way I email individuals!


On topic - If two people ask me for a game, one has an unpainted army, one has a painted army - I'll play the guy with the painted army. I'm one of those "Paint your Crap" guys in these type of threads. I refuse to play with units in my army that are unpainted. Eh to each his own at the end of the day. Unless you cant paint due to injury/working 50+hours a week/kids - Hire someone or paint. Hone your skills when you're a younger kid who has no obligations!

H.B.M.C. wrote:

KGatch113 wrote:Painting the model is part of the game.

Really? There are rules in the game for painted models? Where exactly?

GW tournies require that models be painted in no less than three colors...
I know it's not a "rule" of the game itself but it should be noted.

If people don't want to paint their models it's fine by me, but I will insult you and call you lazy for doing so.
I never criticize the paintjob itself if an attempt is showm, I will try and give pointers. But to not paint an army simply because you say that you are not a good painter is a lack of effort. I have hands that shake nonstop and I managed to paint an army of IG that IMO look damn good.

inquisitorlewis wrote:

swordbrotherjim wrote:Paint them. Its part of the hobby.

I agree.

Sure it is part of the hobby but some people just play the game and don't partake in the hobby. To each his own I suppose.

I prefer playing with painted armies and against them but I don't hold it against anyone if they don't feel the same way. As long as the other person is a good guy (or girl) and I have fun playing against them then I don't really care.

U BUY £25 BOX OF TOY SOLIDER.

Y U NO PAINT?!

I've said this before, and I stand by it to the last.
I couldn't ever go out and buy a nice new kit, put it together with some sweet conversions and then leave it as it is.

IMHO (flame on) painting is a must have. It is, after all a part of the hobby that you're doing. Ultimately it's the persons property to do with what they will, but I could never leave something half finished.

That's like putting on your shoes and not tying the laces.
Sure you save time, but do you really want to trip and DIE?

I thought not.

NOW GET A BRUSH, DAMMIT!

brettz123 wrote:Sure it is part of the hobby but some people just play the game and don't partake in the hobby. To each his own I suppose.

I'd like then to reiterate my question :

Hyd wrote:There are quite a lot of games out there; why pick one that involves painting when you don't like it ?

I'm saying this purely out of curiosity.

Hyd wrote:

brettz123 wrote:Sure it is part of the hobby but some people just play the game and don't partake in the hobby. To each his own I suppose.

I'd like then to reiterate my question :

Hyd wrote:There are quite a lot of games out there; why pick one that involves painting when you don't like it ?

I'm saying this purely out of curiosity.

Because they like the actual game? Because they like the models?

The game doesn't require painting in any way, shape or form. Saying that people that only wan't to play the game should be required to paint the models in order to enjoy the part of the hobby that they like is ridiculous and is basically the same as saying that people that only buy the models to build and paint, should then be forced to play with them!

Painting may be a part of your hobby, but it doesn't mean that it is a part of everyone else's.

That being said, you are free to refuse playing anyone that doesn't have a fully painted army if your enjoyment of the hobby requires you to do so. Free will for everyone!

it takes a certain kind of person to fully commit to painting a full army. I have been painting 5 years and love it. But my SW army is still not finished and i am a person that is crazy about painting. Its my favorite hobby but it still takes a lot of time and devotion to learn and become competent.

Hyd wrote:

brettz123 wrote:Sure it is part of the hobby but some people just play the game and don't partake in the hobby. To each his own I suppose.

I'd like then to reiterate my question :

Hyd wrote:There are quite a lot of games out there; why pick one that involves painting when you don't like it ?

I'm saying this purely out of curiosity.

Not to answer for other people but I would imagine because they like the look of the models or enjoy the background. Or maybe it is just what is being played.

And out of curiosity I would ask you what miniature game doesn't involve painting as one of the unstated goals of the game?

I paint my armies but I understand that some people just don't want to or want to and don't have the time.

KGatch113 wrote:

If you are not going to paint your models, why not just use chits? Or print up paper pictures and put them on bases?

Painting the model is part of the game. Not just because they should be painted, but to distinguish units from one another, to show who sergeants and commanders are, and to avoid getting your unpainted models mixed with Joe's unpainted models. Unpainted models make gameplay harder, which lessens the experience.

I work hard to put a nice army on the table. Don't expect to play me if I don't see you at least trying. It's a matter of respect. You're spitting in my face when you say it doesn't matter if the models are painted or not.

Go play something else then.

Am I elitest? Sure and there is nothing wrong with that.

I don't think I'd want to play an asshat like you. If you don't want to play against unpainted armies that is fine and dandy, but maybe you can lay off implying that somebody who does not paint 'isn't trying'. There are plenty of people who play these games to find people who play in a style suited to your taste without implying that those who don't play to your taste are doing it wrong.

Brother Axel wrote:That's like putting on your shoes and not tying the laces.
Sure you save time, but do you really want to trip and DIE?

No, it really isn't; not painting my models will not increase my risk of tripping myself up and braining myself on a paving slab. Comparing not painting your models to not doing something that could save your life is going to be difficult to top when it comes to the World's Worst Comparisons awards.

Anywho, someone mentioned that one of their friends was a painter when he got the inspiration to paint, and that sometimes he could go a year without painting. That's me (not his friend (no, I don't mean we can't be friends ), but the same sort of person). A month or so two ago, I decided to start painting my Eldar after over a year of not touching a brush. I painted my Farseer, my Autarch, half the top part of a Fire Prism hull, undercoated most of my army, bought new brushes and paints, then lost the will. The same happened with my CSM, Tau, Lizardmen and WoC.

I'm also a fussy painter and a perfectionist, as well as someone who wants to do it themselves with their own ideas. Slapping on a basecoat, detailing, and dipping all in X, Y and Z colours because they're easy, is not a route I would take, because it's not my scheme. Paying someone else to do it is out, because it's not my work. I dislike painting at the best of times; it feels like a chore and the results are never even close to what I wanted, so i'm always left disappointed.

Sure, I can't enter painted only events, but feth it, I cannot bring myself to rush an army, or to leave little errors alone, or to have any model worse than another. If you don't want to play me, fine. I am okay with having unpainted models, if you're not then that's your problem, not mine, so don't talk to me about it.

Painting can get people down, it's a tough skill to learn and has a steep learning curve.
Converting on the other hand is more simple and gives a straight away cool looking model.

I personally would prefer to have my opponent at least try to paint, but I wouldn't ask them to learn on their nicely converted model.

People do the hobby how they want it's their choice.

brettz123 wrote:
And out of curiosity I would ask you what miniature game doesn't involve painting as one of the unstated goals of the game?

AT-43, Confrontation: Age of Ragnarok, Heroclix, Mage Knight, D&D Minis, Star Wars Minis, Monsterpocalypse, Axis and Allies Minis, Wings of Glory, and Heroscape to name a few.

I shattered my elbow in the past.

I have pretty significant nerve damage in the dominant arm that I'd use for painting. If I try to do anything precise such as, let's say painting a model, after about 10 minutes my arm will be twitching and shuddering so much that I am completely unable to hold the brush still.

Guess that makes me one of those lazy people who shouldn't be able to play, right? :|

Some people are not going to paint them because they don't want to commit yet to that army.

Next two weeks, the stuffs back on sale in the used bin. Seeing as the rules change as they do, who is to say that thats a wrong stance to take?


just saying....

Platuan4th wrote:

brettz123 wrote:
And out of curiosity I would ask you what miniature game doesn't involve painting as one of the unstated goals of the game?

AT-43, Confrontation: Age of Ragnarok, Heroclix, Mage Knight, D&D Minis, Star Wars Minis, Monsterpocalypse, Axis and Allies Minis, Wings of Glory, and Heroscape to name a few.

Technically Dust I guess also counts. Though thats more of a Tactics thing since Tactics is your average board game compared to the table top Warfare

swordbrotherjim wrote:Paint them. Its part of the hobby.

Part of your hobby, not everyones.
Its like if you go to watch a sport, where singing/chanting is common, some people don't want to do that. Some people who do always sing moan about those who do not, its not written on your ticket, 'You must join in with every chant', like its not written on the box when you buy figures 'you must paint'.

You can't force people to do something they don't want or have time for. Of course there are tournaments that require painting and/or reward it, so people who don't like painting miss out fairly, people who just don't have the time miss out a bit unfairly. I can enjoy painting, but don't have anywhere in my house (home with family, while at Uni i've got space) where I can leave painting stuff out, my desk is too small, and the only table we have is in dining room and regularly used, with two little kids around I can't leave stuff out. I'm going to try and work around that, by getting a tray to keep things on, and put that out of reach to lessen the time spent getting things out and putting away (which may not sound like a hard task, but getting things out of boxes, moving them, setting everything up, knowing i'm going to have to put it away when I may want to watch TV or go out or something is just an extra 'effort' that often puts me off).

It would be lovely if every army was painted brilliantly. But thats not the case, personally i'd rather see grey/primed armies than something painted really quickly just so it was painted, or someone wasting £100s on someone painting their army for them.

Wargaming has many elements. The models, which again has different elements (painting, converting, just the general look can draw people to them), the social aspect (pretty much playing with friends/in a group just because you want to be social), the tactical side, the winning side. Probably some more. Its YOUR hobby, ok you share it with others, but do people get upset with others who paint and don't play? Thats exactly the same as playing and not painting, but I don't think i've ever seen anyone moan about that.

I have to wonder how many of the 'I don't paint for whatever reason' people would join a football/baseball/soccer league because they 'liked to play', and would then never show up for practice. It seems kinda the same to me. I sign up, buy my equipment/uniform, show up for practice and then get the enjoyment of playing against people who have done the same. They sign up, buy thier equipment/uniforms, never show up for practice and sit on the bench because they suck, but still like to brag when they're on the winning team.

Honestly, it's a bit insulting to play against anyone that puts NO EFFORT into painting. I don't expect to see my quality arrayed against me at my FLGS, but a little bit of effort is MUCH appreciated. You spent the time to put them together/convert them, now that that part is finished, put a little time into painting them. You'll never get better if you don't try!

J'santai Khan wrote:I have to wonder how many of the 'I don't paint for whatever reason' people would join a football/baseball/soccer league because they 'liked to play', and would then never show up for practice. It seems kinda the same to me. I sign up, buy my equipment/uniform, show up for practice and then get the enjoyment of playing against people who have done the same. They sign up, buy thier equipment/uniforms, never show up for practice and sit on the bench because they suck, but still like to brag when they're on the winning team.

Honestly, it's a bit insulting to play against anyone that puts NO EFFORT into painting. I don't expect to see my quality arrayed against me at my FLGS, but a little bit of effort is MUCH appreciated. You spent the time to put them together/convert them, now that that part is finished, put a little time into painting them. You'll never get better if you don't try!

And those of us who are physically incapable of painting from nerve damage?

Jeez, you are gonna break your back patting yourself on the back like that.

curran12 wrote:

J'santai Khan wrote:I have to wonder how many of the 'I don't paint for whatever reason' people would join a football/baseball/soccer league because they 'liked to play', and would then never show up for practice. It seems kinda the same to me. I sign up, buy my equipment/uniform, show up for practice and then get the enjoyment of playing against people who have done the same. They sign up, buy thier equipment/uniforms, never show up for practice and sit on the bench because they suck, but still like to brag when they're on the winning team.

Honestly, it's a bit insulting to play against anyone that puts NO EFFORT into painting. I don't expect to see my quality arrayed against me at my FLGS, but a little bit of effort is MUCH appreciated. You spent the time to put them together/convert them, now that that part is finished, put a little time into painting them. You'll never get better if you don't try!

And those of us who are physically incapable of painting from nerve damage?

Jeez, you are gonna break your back patting yourself on the back like that.

Hope he doesn't break his arm and suffer that same sort of nerve damage coming down off his high horse.

I for one would rather have an army that is painted (even if not brilliantly) than a wall of grey plastic. i find painting rather enjoyable especialy when in a store having a conversation. i am not an amazing painter (i would say that my armies are on the lower end tabletop standard but still way better than some of the other local offerings). ive only been playing for just about a year now and i see it as a realy important factor to me using models is if i have painted them or not. i like to keep my armies tabletop standard and dont often convert my models.

I find it simply apauling when people field all grey or basecoated and often refuse to play against them unless there new models that they want to test run. many people in my local are share this opinion as they always try to get armies painted before they play them or work on painting between games. needless to say i have alot of models still unpainted but atleast i have plans to paint them and want to see my army painted on the field but time does not allow me to do so and i simply dont play those models.

I know some people who have literaly never got beyond a spray coat when painting and are constantly playing. they could take time off from playing to paint there models respectably so that they are worthy of facing the battlefield. the amount of "Sprue Grey" chapters on battle fields is just too damn high and should be stopped.

I have several friends, myself included, that simply do not enjoy painting. Often times we end up getting together, and getting drunk over about 2 nights while watching movies to paint them. This leads to some awful paint jobs, like my friends guard army which is painted in cheap craft glitter paints over white primer, or my pink blue and green grey knight army. I am a college student. A great deal of my time is spent sitting on the computer reading information. The last thing I want to do for fun is sit and apply paint to models, it just feels like a chore. Most of my armies are the bare minimum 3 colors, I think the shortest time I ever spent on one was 3 hours for a 50 model foot space wolf army.

On the other hand, I have a flesh tearers army that I painted over a winter where I had a lot of free time. While I think it looks beautiful, the red alone was 10 coats of paint, including highlights and washes. I could never spend that much time again working on an army. I can paint with the top 10%-5% of painters out there, but most of the time I dont care enough.

While I think we can all agree that nonpainted looks worse than painted armies, theres a very good chance the people who run constant grey armies just dont enjoy painting. There is no reason that an unpainted army should actually bother someone to look at, and people shouldnt have to waste their time on activities they find boring for others enjoyment.

Eidolon, at least you made the effort to paint them. It's not about having the prettiest army, but anything's better than not trying.

KillerSkivil wrote:

I know some people who have literaly never got beyond a spray coat when painting and are constantly playing. they could take time off from playing to paint there models respectably so that they are worthy of facing the battlefield. the amount of "Sprue Grey" chapters on battle fields is just too damn high and should be stopped.

You there! Stop doing the part of the hobby that you enjoy and get the most out of! How dare you not enjoy the hobby the same way I do! I shall be insulted by this!

Puh-leeze. I agree that painted armies are nice, but 'worthy' of facing the battlefield? Really?

J'santai Khan wrote:I have to wonder how many of the 'I don't paint for whatever reason' people would join a football/baseball/soccer league because they 'liked to play', and would then never show up for practice. It seems kinda the same to me. I sign up, buy my equipment/uniform, show up for practice and then get the enjoyment of playing against people who have done the same. They sign up, buy thier equipment/uniforms, never show up for practice and sit on the bench because they suck, but still like to brag when they're on the winning team.

Honestly, it's a bit insulting to play against anyone that puts NO EFFORT into painting. I don't expect to see my quality arrayed against me at my FLGS, but a little bit of effort is MUCH appreciated. You spent the time to put them together/convert them, now that that part is finished, put a little time into painting them. You'll never get better if you don't try!

Umm, thats completely different.
If they liked to play, to play in a team, they'd have to practise, or they wouldn't get in the team. Quite simple, how on earth can you compare not painting to not turning up to practise? Completely different things.

For me personally painting is as big a part of the hobby as playing . I most likely spend as much time painting as I do playing, if not more. I also try to only field my painted models but not always. I do this for my own satisfaction as I take pride in how my army looks. I do not look down on people who have not painted their armies as I know it isn't for everybody.

That said there are plenty of ways to get a army on the table quickly and looking fairly decently. Even the most basically painted army looks amazing on the table when finished. Each model dose not have to be golden daemon quality.

1. Prime in a colour you want
2. Pick out metallic areas
3. Pick out some details (eyes or different colour shoulder pads)
4. Quick shade or wash

Anyone could knock out that sort of army in no time and it will look decent. My army might lose the game but they looked good doing it

J'santai Khan wrote:I have to wonder how many of the 'I don't paint for whatever reason' people would join a football/baseball/soccer league because they 'liked to play', and would then never show up for practice. It seems kinda the same to me. I sign up, buy my equipment/uniform, show up for practice and then get the enjoyment of playing against people who have done the same. They sign up, buy thier equipment/uniforms, never show up for practice and sit on the bench because they suck, but still like to brag when they're on the winning team.

Honestly, it's a bit insulting to play against anyone that puts NO EFFORT into painting. I don't expect to see my quality arrayed against me at my FLGS, but a little bit of effort is MUCH appreciated. You spent the time to put them together/convert them, now that that part is finished, put a little time into painting them. You'll never get better if you don't try!

Heres the difference. When I play warhammer, those are my models, and Im the only one who runs them. When I play on a sports team, my teammates depend on me to perform on the field. Absolutely nobody is depending on someone else to have painted models. Also, sports are competitive by nature, painting is just competing against yourself. If you and me compete in boxing, I am directly trying to hurt you, while you are trying to hurt me. If we enter a painting competition, we both put in our best on our own time, and then hope that it beats the other guys.

I am a very competitive player. If it wasnt for competitive play, I would have moved along from this hobby with my life. I dont tell the new guy who shows up with a terrible army list that hes insulting me, I go and get one of my bad armies and goof off. Or, if all I have is my coteaz, I find an excuse and dont play, as that game would not be fun for either of us.

Finally, I think the idea that 'youll never get better if you dont try' is silly. A lot of us simply dont have the drive to actually get better painting models.

I also wonder what you people think about people who don't assemble or convert their armies. I can't tell you how many armies I've assembled or models I've converted for friends who hate doing it but want to play or want a model that looks a certain way but can't/won't put in the work.

It's not my job to tell them how to enjoy their hobby(frankly, I don't give a rat's ass, do what you enjoy) and it's not any of yours either. Thinking otherwise and policing/bullying/badgering people for not doing something they don't enjoy or have the time for is just being self-righteous.

Platuan4th wrote:

brettz123 wrote:
And out of curiosity I would ask you what miniature game doesn't involve painting as one of the unstated goals of the game?

AT-43, Confrontation: Age of Ragnarok, Heroclix, Mage Knight, D&D Minis, Star Wars Minis, Monsterpocalypse, Axis and Allies Minis, Wings of Glory, and Heroscape to name a few.

AT-43 --> Isn't this out of production?
Confrontation: Age of Ragnarok --> out of production
Heroclix --> Good game more people should play it
Mage Knight --> isn't this out of production too?
D&D Minis --> defianetly out of production
Star Wars Minis --> out of production
Monsterpocalypse --> is this one still going strong?
Axis and Allies Minis
Wings of Glory
Heroscape

So basically a bunch of OOP games. Not all that great of a choice in my opinion!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Platuan4th wrote:I also wonder what you people think about people who don't assemble or convert their armies. I can't tell you how many armies I've assembled or models I've converted for friends who hate doing it but want to play or want a model that looks a certain way but can't/won't put in the work.

It's not my job to tell them how to enjoy their hobby(frankly, I don't give a rat's ass, do what you enjoy) and it's not any of yours either. Thinking otherwise and policing/bullying/badgering people for not doing something they don't enjoy or have the time for is just being self-righteous.

I have to admit I wouldn't play against an unassembled army...... even I have to draw a line ar that point

Painting is more important to me than playing honestly. This game is very heavily about the aesthetic to me.
Others? Not so much.
I hate seeing a sea of gray plastic on the other end of the table, but it's their prerogative.
I can no more fault a guy how never paints his models, anymore than a guy can fault me for not spending 200 hours painting my boyz to "Photo Quality"
Of course I'd prefer everyone paint to a 3 color, table top quality, but forget about it, that's not the nature of competitive gaming.
You want everyone to paint their minis? Go play an RPG where everyone is completely in love with their character, and is invested in it.
I promise you, THOSE guys paint the crap out of their minis.

brettz123 wrote:

Platuan4th wrote:

brettz123 wrote:
And out of curiosity I would ask you what miniature game doesn't involve painting as one of the unstated goals of the game?

AT-43, Confrontation: Age of Ragnarok, Heroclix, Mage Knight, D&D Minis, Star Wars Minis, Monsterpocalypse, Axis and Allies Minis, Wings of Glory, and Heroscape to name a few.

AT-43 --> Isn't this out of production?
Confrontation: Age of Ragnarok --> out of production
Heroclix --> Good game more people should play it
Mage Knight --> isn't this out of production too?
D&D Minis --> defianetly out of production
Star Wars Minis --> out of production
Monsterpocalypse --> is this one still going strong?
Axis and Allies Minis
Wings of Glory
Heroscape

So basically a bunch of OOP games. Not all that great of a choice in my opinion!

You didn't ask what current games don't involve painting, and that's far from an exhaustive list. As well, regardless of being OOP, AT-43, D&D, SWM, and Monsterpocalypse(which may as well be OOP) still have very devoted followings.

Platuan4th wrote:
You didn't ask what current games don't involve painting.

True enough I should have mentioned that..........

Squidmanlolz wrote:Eidolon, at least you made the effort to paint them. It's not about having the prettiest army, but anything's better than not trying.

I disagree. A raw plastic army still has the potential to become something beautiful someday, but a badly painted one is just wasted.

lord_blackfang wrote:

Squidmanlolz wrote:Eidolon, at least you made the effort to paint them. It's not about having the prettiest army, but anything's better than not trying.

I disagree. A raw plastic army still has the potential to become something beautiful someday, but a badly painted one is just wasted.

You have no idea. I was joking around with my friends about painting them up all slaaneshi like. Then, one night, I got stood up on a date, and half a bottle of rum later my plan was underway.
Here are some photos from a tournament in december. The models have, as of late, been based with glitter and sealed with glosscoat.





On the one hand, it is a pretty ugly army. On the other hand, it is pretty hilarious, and I think a good parody of both the grimdark nature of the game, and how serious a lot of people take their plastic dollies. So while its not pretty, I dont feel that it is in anyway a wasted effort.

I myself hate playing unpainted models. Unfortunately my hand shakes just enough to make painting a difficult chore for me. Just look at my gallery pics, my armies are not too far above tabletop...those took me forever. Doesn't help that I am not artistic in an artistic family. I do make the effort, my marines are almost all painted now, but my guard...well they really aren't. People judge me when I play Guard but...really come on guys, to each is their own.

J'santai Khan wrote:I have to wonder how many of the 'I don't paint for whatever reason' people would join a football/baseball/soccer league because they 'liked to play', and would then never show up for practice. It seems kinda the same to me. I sign up, buy my equipment/uniform, show up for practice and then get the enjoyment of playing against people who have done the same. They sign up, buy thier equipment/uniforms, never show up for practice and sit on the bench because they suck, but still like to brag when they're on the winning team.

Practicing makes you better at the game - the reason you joined the team.
Painting does not make you better at the game - the reason some people play 40k.

See the difference and why your analogy is dumb?

Honestly, it's a bit insulting to play against anyone that puts NO EFFORT into painting. I don't expect to see my quality arrayed against me at my FLGS, but a little bit of effort is MUCH appreciated. You spent the time to put them together/convert them, now that that part is finished, put a little time into painting them. You'll never get better if you don't try!

I'll never get better at eating shoes either, but I don't enjoy it.

How do people not understand that painting isn't fun for everyone? I can do it - I painted a few models to prove that I can. I just hate doing it.

Eidolon wrote:On the one hand, it is a pretty ugly army. On the other hand, it is pretty hilarious, and I think a good parody of both the grimdark nature of the game, and how serious a lot of people take their plastic dollies.

Oh, I hear you!

rigeld2 wrote:

J'santai Khan wrote:I have to wonder how many of the 'I don't paint for whatever reason' people would join a football/baseball/soccer league because they 'liked to play', and would then never show up for practice. It seems kinda the same to me. I sign up, buy my equipment/uniform, show up for practice and then get the enjoyment of playing against people who have done the same. They sign up, buy thier equipment/uniforms, never show up for practice and sit on the bench because they suck, but still like to brag when they're on the winning team.

Practicing makes you better at the game - the reason you joined the team.
Painting does not make you better at the game - the reason some people play 40k.

See the difference and why your analogy is dumb?

His analogy is fine. You, on the other hand, missed the point of his analogy entirely. Painting doesn't make you better at the game. Painting makes you better at painting.

infinite_array wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

J'santai Khan wrote:I have to wonder how many of the 'I don't paint for whatever reason' people would join a football/baseball/soccer league because they 'liked to play', and would then never show up for practice. It seems kinda the same to me. I sign up, buy my equipment/uniform, show up for practice and then get the enjoyment of playing against people who have done the same. They sign up, buy thier equipment/uniforms, never show up for practice and sit on the bench because they suck, but still like to brag when they're on the winning team.

Practicing makes you better at the game - the reason you joined the team.
Painting does not make you better at the game - the reason some people play 40k.

See the difference and why your analogy is dumb?

His analogy is fine. You, on the other hand, missed the point of his analogy entirely. Painting doesn't make you better at the game. Painting makes you better at painting.

Which makes it a useless analogy because you don't need to paint to play a miniature wargame.

infinite_array wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

J'santai Khan wrote:I have to wonder how many of the 'I don't paint for whatever reason' people would join a football/baseball/soccer league because they 'liked to play', and would then never show up for practice. It seems kinda the same to me. I sign up, buy my equipment/uniform, show up for practice and then get the enjoyment of playing against people who have done the same. They sign up, buy thier equipment/uniforms, never show up for practice and sit on the bench because they suck, but still like to brag when they're on the winning team.

Practicing makes you better at the game - the reason you joined the team.
Painting does not make you better at the game - the reason some people play 40k.

See the difference and why your analogy is dumb?

His analogy is fine. You, on the other hand, missed the point of his analogy entirely. Painting doesn't make you better at the game. Painting makes you better at painting.

Right - and getting better at painting is something I don't care about whatsoever. It's not something I enjoy.
If I signed up for a football/baseball/soccer league it'd be something I enjoy doing. I'd do it to get better at it.
Playing 40k is practicing. Every game you get slightly better (just like practicing football/soccer/etc). It's something I enjoy. I'm going to do it.

The analogy fails.

edit: I want to play 40k. Playing 40k does not involve painting - there's no rules requirement, it doesn't change the performance of my mandollies, it just makes things look objectively better.
I want to play football. Playing football doesn't involve wearing uniforms - there's no rules requirement and it doesn't change my performance on the playing field - it just makes things look objectively better.

Seriously - how is it hard to understand that paining isn't required and that some people just freaking hate doing it?
Why are you requiring someone to do something that they freaking hate?

lord_blackfang wrote:

Eidolon wrote:On the one hand, it is a pretty ugly army. On the other hand, it is pretty hilarious, and I think a good parody of both the grimdark nature of the game, and how serious a lot of people take their plastic dollies.

Oh, I hear you!

Mines better, because it didnt come from 4chan

infinite_array wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

J'santai Khan wrote:I have to wonder how many of the 'I don't paint for whatever reason' people would join a football/baseball/soccer league because they 'liked to play', and would then never show up for practice. It seems kinda the same to me. I sign up, buy my equipment/uniform, show up for practice and then get the enjoyment of playing against people who have done the same. They sign up, buy thier equipment/uniforms, never show up for practice and sit on the bench because they suck, but still like to brag when they're on the winning team.

Practicing makes you better at the game - the reason you joined the team.
Painting does not make you better at the game - the reason some people play 40k.

See the difference and why your analogy is dumb?

His analogy is fine. You, on the other hand, missed the point of his analogy entirely. Painting doesn't make you better at the game. Painting makes you better at painting.

No, I think you missed the point. Nobody plays a sport to have a pretty uniform, you play a sport for the game itself. Some people dont care about painting, so they dont do it, but they can still play the game.

I haven't started painting yet because tbh I'm scared to.
I know with my painting level I can't meet the standard that my conversion/modeling work is at. So I know I have awsome custom expensive converted models but will have absolute gak paint jobs.

I personally don't like playing with/against unpainted armies. I do sometimes use my armies that are in the process of being painted if I feel like a change from my fully painted armies but I always feel a bit embarrassed fielding a primed only/unbased unit/model with my finished models.

Eidolon wrote:

lord_blackfang wrote:

Eidolon wrote:On the one hand, it is a pretty ugly army. On the other hand, it is pretty hilarious, and I think a good parody of both the grimdark nature of the game, and how serious a lot of people take their plastic dollies.

Oh, I hear you!

Mines better, because it didnt come from 4chan

That's my tank, dammit!

Look here, it's the same desk.
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/420932.page
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/415998.page

Most fabulous army competition, coming to an lgs near you 2012

As far as I'm concerned, people who don't paint = lazy b******s!!!

I've got a job, got other things to do, got a home/car to run etc etc but I still manage to find the time to do 5 models every 2 to 3 weeks. Are people so busy that they can't do 5 models at least once a month? C'mon!!

I'm not the greatest painter, but with all the paint guides around, videos, forums, WD tutorials etc etc there really is no excuse. Are people seriously suggesting that they couldn't paint skeletons using the army painter method? or something similar?

I make an exception for youngsters or people getting started in the hobby to encouraga them, but for everybody else, get a grip!!

Opinions abound:

I have always loved hobby stuff, trains and slot cars coupled with a love of fantasy and Sci-Fi. It was fate for me to get into 40k, Before I even knew what 40k was I was buying a box of rogue trader era marines and a fantasy box of skeletons just to assemble and paint. For me personally 40K has been 51% hobby, 49% game. Even when I didn't play for entire editions, I still painted and worked on the guys I had. If I hated 6th ed. and quit playing I would not get rid of my guys. We have a relationship, they are the reward for all the time and effort I put into painting them.

I will admit, I do not get the guys who dont / wont / cant paint their armies. I have more respect for someone who lacks in skill but still works on their armies and shows up every week with a little more progress done than the guys who just dont paint their armies. I CANT STAND the guys who NEVER paint their dudes, these people also seem to be the same people who sweep up their guys into sterlite containers for stowage and transport. The same people who lose guys and the same people that every Friday drop another $100 on a model kit(s) that will look like . All I see is the waste of money, the waste of potential of that awesome kit (And I am not the worlds best painter). Just my feelings on this matter. In other words, I care that I just spent $X on a model kit and I want it to look as damn good as I can get it to maximize my enjoyment out of my investment.

Gaming for me has always been about immersion, whether we are talking about tabletop or video games. Poor immersion for me usually relates to a poor or less enjoyably gaming experience. If all of GW's books (rule book, codex, etc) had unpainted models, and coke cans and books for terrain being played on someone's kitchen table, the sales pitch would not be very good. When you play someone with and each player has a table standard painted army and a good gaming board to play on it raises the epic feel of the battle. It raises enjoyment. Again IMO.

40k is a game that demands a certain level of commitment on a social level (IMO). You commit socially to not degrade other players enjoyment by putting your shabby models on the same board. Like wise you don't show up to participate in a team tournament if you are unfamiliar with the rules in 40k. That player is counting on you to pull your weight, and doesn't want to have to explain things along the way. Now my analogy isn't perfect, you do have the choice not to play someone with an unpainted army but I think what the problem is, is that you have a majority of poorly painted armies and a minority of armies painted to table standard or better.

So are we just at the level of elitist gaming snobs? well maybe in someway some of us are... Some of us have a lot of expectations of our time spent playing 40k. Everyone's time is valuable and as a 31 year old father who is also a student, I can tell you my time is precious. Maybe more precious than a 15 year old off on summer break who can eat sleep breathe 40k and whatever else they want to do (ah to be a kid again). When I show up to play 40k at my local store I usually have to wait an hour to get a table. Most of the people there are there for a longer period of time than I have, most of them are much younger and most of their armies are unpainted. If I can find the time to get some paint down, why cant these people ? Some will sit there and paint up a new guy they bought or assemble some kit (which I dont understand, as personally I like peace and quiet when I assemble and paint) but that is few and far between.

What it comes down to is each person has their own expectations. I LOVE 40k IP (could be considered a fanboy). I want to do homage to the IP by having a cool looking army. Some people don't get that into it, and thats OK.

Not every nerd can be a fanboy of such a cool and epic world as 40k!

~Lion~

Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:As far as I'm concerned, people who don't paint = lazy b******s!!!

I've got a job, got other things to do, got a home/car to run etc etc but I still manage to find the time to do 5 models every 2 to 3 weeks. Are people so busy that they can't do 5 models at least once a month? C'mon!!

I'm not the greatest painter, but with all the paint guides around, videos, forums, WD tutorials etc etc there really is no excuse. Are people seriously suggesting that they couldn't paint skeletons using the army painter method? or something similar?

I make an exception for youngsters or people getting started in the hobby to encouraga them, but for everybody else, get a grip!!

Yes, my utter lack of enjoyment in painting has everything to do with how lazy I am. Good catch.

It's not about skill (I can make them look decent), it's not about time (I can make time)... I just hate doing it.
I'll get them all done eventually (You can only watch Netflix for so long...)...

Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:As far as I'm concerned, people who don't paint = lazy b******s!!!

I've got a job, got other things to do, got a home/car to run etc etc but I still manage to find the time to do 5 models every 2 to 3 weeks. Are people so busy that they can't do 5 models at least once a month? C'mon!!

I have nerve damage and the only way I can get tabletop quality painting is through commission work. Good thing I am lumped into lazy.

High horses all over the place.

Pacific wrote:For the OP, and this thread in general, I think its important to acknowledge that this is principally a problem with 40k. At least from my experience of games nights in various clubs/FLGS they have by far the highest proportion of non-painted minis, I would say when I was playing 40k a lot maybe only 1 in 4 was a completed and painted army. And if I were being honest, it was a fairly important factor in me losing enthusiasm for the system. Hell, even unassembled sometimes, and some extensive proxying (the 'Carnifex as a coke tin' is not just a legend, I have seen it used! ) At the opposite end of the scale is historical stuff, in Flames of War I am struggling to think of a game I have played against a non-painted force.

The people with the least painted armies at mine are actually the youngest.
But i will not say to someone they cant play be because they dont have a fully painted force, but i just find it annoying that people pick up an entire hobby and dont do it.

H.B.M.C. wrote:

Really? There are rules in the game for painted models? Where exactly?

Red paint job for ork trukks? I don't even know if that's still in the game.

Red paint job is an upgrade, sure. That doesn't mean the truck actually has to be painted red.

Nor do any of your models, for that matter. I'd much rather play my painted miniatures against your painted miniatures, and I strive to have my stuff painted, but that's not 100% required. We may have different reasons for playing, collecting, and modeling our 40k miniatures.

To me, playing a WYSIWYG army is much more important than playing a painted one.

kronk wrote:Red paint job is an upgrade, sure. That doesn't mean the truck actually has to be painted red.

Nor do any of your models, for that matter. I'd much rather play my painted miniatures against your painted miniatures, and I strive to have my stuff painted, but that's not 100% required. We may have different reasons for playing, collecting, and modeling our 40k miniatures.

To me, playing a WYSIWYG army is much more important than playing a painted one.

I just remember that in one edition of the Ork rules your trukks actually had to be painted red. One of my friends simply painted the word "red" on his otherwise unpainted trukks...

hotsauceman1 wrote:
The people with the least painted armies at mine are actually the youngest.
But i will not say to someone they cant play be because they dont have a fully painted force, but i just find it annoying that people pick up an entire hobby and dont do it.

And I find it annoying that people dismiss those who do not, or cannot partake in the hobby the same way they are. Let's do a little example.

I am big into the fluff and backstory, if you have not read the BL novels of the factions, I want nothing to do with you and will say you have no right to field the army that you don't intricately know the fluff and backstory of. See? I can put unrealistic and annoying judgments on other players, too!

rigeld2 wrote:

Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:As far as I'm concerned, people who don't paint = lazy b******s!!!

I've got a job, got other things to do, got a home/car to run etc etc but I still manage to find the time to do 5 models every 2 to 3 weeks. Are people so busy that they can't do 5 models at least once a month? C'mon!!

I'm not the greatest painter, but with all the paint guides around, videos, forums, WD tutorials etc etc there really is no excuse. Are people seriously suggesting that they couldn't paint skeletons using the army painter method? or something similar?

I make an exception for youngsters or people getting started in the hobby to encouraga them, but for everybody else, get a grip!!

Yes, my utter lack of enjoyment in painting has everything to do with how lazy I am. Good catch.

It's not about skill (I can make them look decent), it's not about time (I can make time)... I just hate doing it.
I'll get them all done eventually (You can only watch Netflix for so long...)...

rigeld2, we are of the same opinion.

I am in the unfortunate camp that is as equally drawn to the aesthetics of the hobby as I am the game play, but I loath painting.* I have the time to paint but it is not enjoyable in the least and more often than not feels like a burden. So, I do not prioritize my free time to include painting. That does not make me lazy it makes me disinterested. For those of us who only speak one language I am sure some polyglots could come along and accuse us of being lazy for not learning an additional language or two. Is that really laziness, though? Or is it just a lack of interest/incentive to spend the time and effort to practice something that holds no real value for the person? I could go on Youtube and learn Mandarin, or how to play the guitar, or how to bake a souffle. But I am not interested in learning to do any of those things so am I lazy, Do_I_Not_Like_That? Because, I enjoy eating Chinese food on occasion, love to listen to music, and have found very few baked goods that aren't pure heaven, so I guess I am a big, lazy donkey-cave for not making an effort in acquiring the abilities to replicate those things that enjoy, right?




*Luckily some people enjoy painting enough to hire out their services and for that I am thankful because it allows me to play with fully painted armies. But to judge and turn away potential players because they don't field fully painted armies, and have no interested in doing so, is ludicrous in my eyes.

hotsauceman1 wrote:, but i just find it annoying that people pick up an entire hobby and dont do it.

You've done it now, you've flipped my switch.

What is the "entire hobby"?

Playing games is a hobby. I can play AT-43 without painting or modelling.

Painting is a hobby. I can paint Reaper models without playing or modelling.

Modelling is a hobby. I can model wargame armies without painting them or even playing a game.

There is no mythical "The Hobby" that somehow encompasses and requires them all, that is an imagining devised by and forced down our throats by GW. 40K is a thing that encompasses these different hobbies, yes, but they are not required to enjoy 40K as a hobby.

I'm close to having my World Eaters army fully painted (I have 5 berzerkers, 5 obliterators, and 2 rhinos to go) and then I'll move on to my Necrons which aren't hard to paint at all. Only problem for me is finding some time to sit down an paint them. I enjoy it, I'm not great but I like how my models turn out so I really don't care. My only downside is I hate doing anything with vehicles.

curran12 wrote:

hotsauceman1 wrote:
The people with the least painted armies at mine are actually the youngest.
But i will not say to someone they cant play be because they dont have a fully painted force, but i just find it annoying that people pick up an entire hobby and dont do it.

And I find it annoying that people dismiss those who do not, or cannot partake in the hobby the same way they are. Let's do a little example.

I am big into the fluff and backstory, if you have not read the BL novels of the factions, I want nothing to do with you and will say you have no right to field the army that you don't intricately know the fluff and backstory of. See? I can put unrealistic and annoying judgments on other players, too!

Funny you should mention this, I used to play against a guy who hands down, insisted he wouldn't read the fluff, it was just a game and that was all he was interested in. The problem was, when we were playing there was no "banter", well, no game related banter, so the whole game felt like we were playing chess.

The lesson for me in that was that people view these games in lots of different ways, and while we have to respect that, we also have to be mindful about how we, ourselves, enjoy the experience. If I knew someone was illiterate, but wanted to know the fluff, I would happily spend hours informing them verbally about the background etc, and likewise, if I knew someone had a handicap that didn't allow them to paint, I would offer to help. If someone (like my mate) just wasn't interested, I would have to consider whether playing with them would actually allow me to enjoy the experience, and if not, then really, what's the point.

I do think that miniatures really come to life when they have colour applied, but how many people can paint to GD standard, or good enough to really bring out the best in a miniature? I sure as hell can't. Those ultra detailed Infinity figures, I bet there are few people who can make then sing

So having said that, and getting back on topic, I would love to see a great painted army, but if it was a choice between poor paint and bare metal, I'll take bare metal, at least you can see the damn detail

hotsauceman1 wrote: but i just find it annoying that people pick up an entire hobby and dont do it.

You're going to dance on a lot of people's nerves with that one, HSM1. They most certainly are "doing it". If they don't want to paint, fine. If they don't want to base their models, fine. Who are you to say they aren't doing it? No one, really.

Also, please start using the search function here and in the 40k discussion area. You'd see that this topic comes up once a quarter and gets very heated. It typically gets heated when people make comments like the one you just made. Do you want to start a flame war? Are you trolling? Are you bored?

Why would you say something that provocative?

PhantomViper wrote:Because they like the actual game? Because they like the models?

The game doesn't require painting in any way, shape or form. Saying that people that only wan't to play the game should be required to paint the models in order to enjoy the part of the hobby that they like is ridiculous and is basically the same as saying that people that only buy the models to build and paint, should then be forced to play with them!

Painting may be a part of your hobby, but it doesn't mean that it is a part of everyone else's.

You can't say painting is not a part of miniature gaming unless the models come prepainted. As I said, it's part of the appeal; it comes as a package. You get not only to play, but to do it with models you have put effort and skill into; it's as much handicraft as it is gaming.

Now, if you don't like a part of the package, that's fine. Nobody is denying you this right (or if they do, they are being ridiculous and don't deserve your attention).
The thing I can't wrap my head around is : why then pick an activity where painting is part of the experience, when there are dozens of others that do not involve it at all to begin with ? I'm tempted to make a comparison, but people would only answer to that part and nitpick it to death.

I for one am primarily interested in playing, but I wouldn't bother with miniatures if I didn't also enjoy painting, not when there are so much alternatives available. I guess that doesn't strike me as very rational.

Then again, you don't have to be, and nobody is saying you what to do with your free time.

KrimsunBaron wrote:Painting can get people down, it's a tough skill to learn and has a steep learning curve.

As I said in my first post, it's actually pretty easy to get a decent job done with a very basic technique; there's no need to aim for a Golden Demon level if your priority is to play.

I don't like playing unpainted armies and think that the people who don't are lazy, it doesn't take much to paint your army, I am not an artistic person but with a little effort still have a table top quality army.

I like painted armies. I don't give a damn if they're painted, however.

Will I ever turn down an opponent who spray painted his BA red and left it at that? Hell no! Will I ever insult a grey army? No! If I see a nicely painted army, do I want to play it with my painted army more than a grey one? Yes, because it looks damn cool.

Different strokes for different folks, people.

I hate painting.

I collect models for the game, the converting and the moddeling.

Painting is just a boring horrible option i do not want to take part in for me.

That and the amount of times i will paint something up, take it down somewhere and play someone with a sexy as hell army, it makes mine look like a bag of gak.

Its Depressing...

Privateer itself is largely to blame for the proliferation of unpainted armies in the Warmahordes scene.

Early on they made every effort to be the "anti-GW" and do ANYTHING that would gain them support and build their fanbase:

You want to powergame and be proud of it? Come on over and PLYHAP.

You want metal instead of silly plastic toys? Come on over.

You hate other people telling you you have to paint and feeling excluded? We don't require painting so come on over.

Other then in one certain tournament format painting did not used to ever be a requirement in Warmahordes events and seeing unpainted (and even partially assembled) models in use became commonplace. I havent played in a few years so I don't know if this has shifted at all, but based upon this thread I'm guessing not so much...


That being said People enjoy different things for different reasons and everyone has varying degrees of enthusiasm, time and ability when it comes to painting/converting/terrain making.

Insisting that everyone must like something (wargaming in this case) for the same reasons as you and must participate exactly as you do is rather self-centered and ignorant tbh...

I love to paint and convert and build terrain. Many don't. Life will go on...

So you have to work to buy the $1,500.00 army that takes at least 2 weeks to build. So you get off at five by the time you finish the "death race" home it’s around 6 if some fether dint slam his car into the wall. You eat dinner and then listen to the wife bitch for an hour after about some meaningless chore she wants you to do. Take a shower now because your all sweaty it’s close to 8:30 9:00, gak! You have to get up at 6:00am for work and start this gakky meaningless life over again, well feth painting tonight. Saturday rolls around option #1) take care of gak that broke/grew/fell/collected around the house. #2) play that army you spent $1,500.00 on #3) Go buy hundreds of $ in paint then spent all day painting.

I'll just play the game after I mow the lawn since my friends that have no job live with mom and have painted armies dont get up till noon!

CT GAMER wrote:
Other then in one certain tournament format painting did not used to ever be a requirement in Warmahordes events and became commonplace. I havent played in a few years so I don't know if this has shifted at all, but based upon this thread I'm guessing not so much...

It shifted in MkII. More and more events are requiring it.

The thing with PP is that, while they've always encouraged painting, they never wanted it to be mandatory to enjoy their game.

Guess that's the difference between a games company(PP) and a miniatures company(GW).

Platuan4th wrote:What is the "entire hobby"?

Playing games is a hobby. I can play AT-43 without painting or modelling.

Painting is a hobby. I can paint Reaper models without playing or modelling.

Modelling is a hobby. I can model wargame armies without painting them or even playing a game.

That's one view on the subject, and I'm not saying it's wrong, but I see it differently. To me, it's about "miniature wargaming". It is an activity that encompasses the three you mentioned. When I buy a kit, I get to tinker with it to my taste, paint it the way I think will look best, and play with it to put my brain to the test. I see it as a whole, because it offers me all that and I want to get the maximum value on my investment; if I'm not enjoying 100% of what I can get with a purchase, it doesn't feel like money wisely spent. Hope that makes sense.

If you see it that way, then more power to you.

Okay here goes! I've been collecting/playing/painting models etc since 1983, I'm now 47 and still enjoy it. This is what I've learned; you've got to have fun! Its that simple. Many have posted valid reasons for not finding the time to paint; I'll counter this by saying you've got to make time, even just to keep your sanity. Life becomes very very boring if you don't allow time for yourselves to do something fun, like painting a miniature or two! I have a job that involves very bizarre hours which makes painting time haphazard to say the least. BUT I still find time to paint, sometimes its the only thing that keeps me sane. You honestly do not want to get to an old age and look back and say "I wish I had...". You've only got one shot at life, by all means make time for others/work etc, but make damn sure that you make time for yourself.I think the biggest problem people have is they are trying to emulate the top painters and getting frustrated when they don't even get close. I used to be one of them. My solution is easy; paint for your own enjoyment. So what if you don't emulate the best in the business, I'll let you in on the big secret; many of us are just at the competent level. We got there by picking up a brush and going crazy with the paint! Who cares if your first minis are a bit rough? With practice you will get better. Don't give up before you start!

Slipstream wrote:This is what I've learned; you've got to have fun!

Here's where the rest of the post breaks down, because for some people, painting just isn't fun.

Painting to me enhances the game experience. I'm a poor gamer (I play SW and get routinely blasted by Eldar) but a very visual person. If I'm going to get stomped I at least want to look at pretty models and terrain. It helps me to immerse myself in the game and in the experience, instead of just pushing plastic soldiers around a table.

It's like the difference between watching a good movie in black and white and then in colour, or in SDTV vs. HDTV. I may enjoy the black and white or SDTV, but I'll enjoy the full colour, HDTV much more.

Hyd wrote:

PhantomViper wrote:Because they like the actual game? Because they like the models?

The game doesn't require painting in any way, shape or form. Saying that people that only wan't to play the game should be required to paint the models in order to enjoy the part of the hobby that they like is ridiculous and is basically the same as saying that people that only buy the models to build and paint, should then be forced to play with them!

Painting may be a part of your hobby, but it doesn't mean that it is a part of everyone else's.

You can't say painting is not a part of miniature gaming unless the models come prepainted. As I said, it's part of the appeal; it comes as a package. You get not only to play, but to do it with models you have put effort and skill into; it's as much handicraft as it is gaming.

Now, if you don't like a part of the package, that's fine. Nobody is denying you this right (or if they do, they are being ridiculous and don't deserve your attention).
The thing I can't wrap my head around is : why then pick an activity where painting is part of the experience, when there are dozens of others that do not involve it at all to begin with ? I'm tempted to make a comparison, but people would only answer to that part and nitpick it to death.

I for one am primarily interested in playing, but I wouldn't bother with miniatures if I didn't also enjoy painting, not when there are so much alternatives available. I guess that doesn't strike me as very rational.

Then again, you don't have to be, and nobody is saying you what to do with your free time.

KrimsunBaron wrote:Painting can get people down, it's a tough skill to learn and has a steep learning curve.

As I said in my first post, it's actually pretty easy to get a decent job done with a very basic technique; there's no need to aim for a Golden Demon level if your priority is to play.

This.

GW didn't invent painting your miniatures. Miniatures wargaming has always included it. For many decades this had been part of the culture of historical miniatures wargaming. Even today many wargamers hold it as a basic assumption that they will never put an unpainted model on the table for a game.

It may not seem fun at first but I guarentee you that once you learn how to paint a model in a tidy manner you'll get a huge boost and you'll want to paint more. Also it is a great feeling to see your projects really take shape, why just stop at the modelling/conversion part when paint will bring your creations to life?

lord_blackfang wrote:

Slipstream wrote:This is what I've learned; you've got to have fun!

Here's where the rest of the post breaks down, because for some people, painting just isn't fun.

It wasn't fun for me when I first tried it, though I was proud of the results when I got a unit done. It does require effort, and I still tend to procrastinate on it, but am always pleased and happy when I get it done. And proud to show off my stuff at the store. There are a ton of tricks and techniques you can use to make it fast, too.

Mannahnin wrote:For many decades this had been part of the culture of historical miniatures wargaming. Even today many wargamers hold it as a basic assumption that they will never put an unpainted model on the table for a game.

Then we've had two very different experiences as I've seen many a historical game with no paint on the table.

Mostly Warhammer Historicals, though. Those Napoleonics are nutters about everything being painted exactingly.

Primestick wrote:So you have to work to buy the $1,500.00 army that takes at least 2 weeks to build. So you get off at five by the time you finish the "death race" home it’s around 6 if some fether dint slam his car into the wall. You eat dinner and then listen to the wife bitch for an hour after about some meaningless chore she wants you to do. Take a shower now because your all sweaty it’s close to 8:30 9:00, gak! You have to get up at 6:00am for work and start this gakky meaningless life over again, well feth painting tonight. Saturday rolls around option #1) take care of gak that broke/grew/fell/collected around the house. #2) play that army you spent $1,500.00 on #3) Go buy hundreds of $ in paint then spent all day painting.

I'll just play the game after I mow the lawn since my friends that have no job live with mom and have painted armies dont get up till noon!

This man knows his stuff/ Well until the last line. My roomate is like that

I understand why men with careers don't paint. If you don't ahve family/tons of work and obligations. Go and paint. I enjoy painting and look foward to it. I will paint because I make time to paint. During the week? Please gawd no. Anything but painting. Working 7-6 shifts in a small cubicle. Yes I make more money then ever... but do I want to buy more stuff? Because then I need to paint it,.


I now understand why people hired me to paint their armies when I was 16/17

If you have time to play, you have time to paint.
Even just to table top standard, all you need is a main colour primer, and like 2 other paints just to give it some other colours. That should be enough to at least make it look presentable. It would take you like 5-10 minutes per model. I think its embarrasing to play without a painted army. The only exception is if you are trying new units or something, but even then the majority of your stuff would be painted.

VanHammer wrote:If you have time to play, you have time to paint.

I also have time to bash my head against the wall but you don't see me doing it!

People make time for what they enjoy, yes. If they don't make time to paint, they obviously enjoy doing other things more.

VanHammer wrote:If you have time to play, you have time to paint.

If you have time to post on the internet, you have time to paint.

If you have time to watch a movie, you have time to paint.

If you have time to do anything you enjoy that isn't painting, you have time to paint.

Just because you have the time to do one thing doesn't mean you have or want to use it for something you don't.

Kronk made a valid point about this descending into a flame war/trolling and that is the last thing I want. On the same note, It was never my intention to insult people with disabilities. If you've got no hands for example, and you can't paint, fair enough.

On the other hand, I'll state my case again. People are complaining about having no skill to paint, fair enough, but with the army painter example, are people really saying that they could not paint a skeleton a base coat, and then dip it into quick shade? I'm not saying that everybody should go TK or VC, but even the above example could be done by a nine year old.

I'll make exception in teenage players or players just getting into the hobby. I'll respect people who give it a go even if they are no good at painting. I went to a tournament 2 years ago and played an unpainted army. I went to the same tournament last year and the same army was still unpainted. And it was only 1500 points...of chaos warriors. Not exactly 300 skaven slaves.

So you've got a job? Guess what, I work full-time as well

I feel like the drill sergeant in Full metal jacket. All I'm asking for is 1 pull up, Private Pile, or five models a month!

Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
I feel like the drill sergeant in Full metal jacket. All I'm asking for is 1 pull up, Private Pile, or five models a month!

DINLK(and many others), I think you're missing the point others are trying to make: If sitting down and painting is the equivalent to getting kicked in their respective genitalia or having to sit through[insert least favorite stage production/film/music here], why would they voluntarily choose to use their precious and/or rare free time to do it just to please your needy ass?

Why should anyone do something they hate if they don't have to?

infinite_array wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

J'santai Khan wrote:I have to wonder how many of the 'I don't paint for whatever reason' people would join a football/baseball/soccer league because they 'liked to play', and would then never show up for practice. It seems kinda the same to me. I sign up, buy my equipment/uniform, show up for practice and then get the enjoyment of playing against people who have done the same. They sign up, buy thier equipment/uniforms, never show up for practice and sit on the bench because they suck, but still like to brag when they're on the winning team.

Practicing makes you better at the game - the reason you joined the team.
Painting does not make you better at the game - the reason some people play 40k.

See the difference and why your analogy is dumb?

His analogy is fine. You, on the other hand, missed the point of his analogy entirely. Painting doesn't make you better at the game. Painting makes you better at painting.

Yeah no..... his analogy makes no sense.

Primestick wrote:So you have to work to buy the $1,500.00 army that takes at least 2 weeks to build. So you get off at five by the time you finish the "death race" home it’s around 6 if some fether dint slam his car into the wall. You eat dinner and then listen to the wife bitch for an hour after about some meaningless chore she wants you to do. Take a shower now because your all sweaty it’s close to 8:30 9:00, gak! You have to get up at 6:00am for work and start this gakky meaningless life over again, well feth painting tonight. Saturday rolls around option #1) take care of gak that broke/grew/fell/collected around the house. #2) play that army you spent $1,500.00 on #3) Go buy hundreds of $ in paint then spent all day painting.

I'll just play the game after I mow the lawn since my friends that have no job live with mom and have painted armies dont get up till noon!

I painted the army in my signature below with a full-time job, a newborn in the house, and while trying to fix up said house. You put your painting stuff in a place you can access quickly, and paint when you can, even if it's 30 minutes here or 45 minutes there.

"Don't have the time" isn't a realistic excuse for 99% of the players out there. The time is there if you want it, especially if you're talking about a SM army you can just basecoat and wash. "Don't want to make the time" is an honest answer, and I respect that a lot more than the previous answer.

Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:I feel like the drill sergeant in Full metal jacket. All I'm asking for is 1 pull up, Private Pile, or five models a month!

All I'm asking is that every time I paint 5 models I get to kick you in the junk as hard as I can.
We will have an approximately equal amount of fun. You can make time for it - if you have time to complain about my painting, you have time to get kicked in the junk.
It costs you nothing to get kicked in the junk.
It doesn't take any skill to get kicked in the junk (well... unless standing there spread legged is a skill)
I don't understand why you are objecting to this.

I'm not saying that painting is arduous and horrible for everyone - I get that some people enjoy it more than actually playing the game.
I don't. There are some days I so don't enjoy it that I would actually rather get kicked in the junk.

People like the painting fanatics posting in this thread are why I only own two armies.

The simple thought of having to paint another army is so unpleasant to me that I'm just not going to do it.

I, personally, have no problem with playing against unpainted armies, as long as the opponent is fun to play against. I'd much rather play an unpainted army being played by a great guy than play a Golden Daemon quality painted army being run by an asshat.

A buddy and I got into the hobby together around 99 or so. When we started, we agreed to only field painted minis. In order to make this happen we spent many late nights assembling and painting our miniatures together. This allowed us to both grow into the hobby together, and strengthened our friendship at the same time. I highly recommend this method to younger players, but also to the older crowd. I have just moved into a new area, and am preparing a Necromunda campaign for the local gaming club. I am doing this to enjoy the excellent game that is Necromunda, and also because I want to make friends.

My early minis were god awful, and all of them have since been sold off. I have not one lick of artistic talent. What I do have is the desire to improve on anything I do. Without constantly seeking improvement it is really easy to grow stagnant. This applies to life in general, and not just to this hobby. My current painting goal is to make it past the first level of a painting competition. It's a small goal, but I like to keep things manageable and realistic. Setting unrealistic goals is one of the easiest ways to get off track.

I have maintained the attitude over the years that I will only field painted minis. I also look for people with a similar attitude about the hobby. The players that take the time to paint (or commission) their armies tend to stick with the hobby much longer, and contribute much more over time (IMO). If left with the choice to play a painted army or an unpainted army I would always choose the painted army, even if it was a much stronger list. That isn't always cut and dry, as I will always play with someone new who is slowly getting their army up and running. If the only option was to play against an unpainted army 9 times out of 10 I will decline, as I would rather spend that time doing one of the other aspects of the hobby. This doesn't make me a snob or an elitist. It just means that I also want to use my free time to the best of my advantage.

rigeld2 wrote:
It's not about skill (I can make them look decent), it's not about time (I can make time)... I just hate doing it.

This sums up my position in its totality. I really, truly, honestly despise miniature painting. I find it to be boring, tedious, physically uncomfortable, and a waste of time that I could use to do any number of other things I would much rather be doing.

This thread-subject comes up every few months, and it always plays out the same way. Some people out their are so narcissistic that they cannot accept that other people do not derive enjoyment from the same aspects of these games as they, themselves, do.

As a law student studying for the bar and working full time, I sympathize with people who don't have time to paint.

As an incompetent hobbyist, I also sympathize with people who don't like the way their painting looks.

However, nothing nothing nothing(!) is as ugly as a field of unpainted, unprimed, models. Looking at them for the span of a game is offensive to the eyes. It also implies to me that, deep down, you don't care about your army.

It's more fun to play against and even lose to an unpainted army. It also says something about your opponent that they'd be willing to spend hours and hours and hours of time painting their army.

Nobody needs to paint their models, but I hold people that don't in a different light than people that do.

GW didn't invent painting your miniatures.

Okay, and this is relavent how?

Miniatures wargaming has always included it. For many decades this had been part of the culture of historical miniatures wargaming.

I could give a rat's ass about historical wargaming. Again, what does this have to do with this discussion?

Even today many wargamers hold it as a basic assumption that they will never put an unpainted model on the table for a game.

Good for them. /clap

Primestick wrote:So you have to work to buy the $1,500.00 army that takes at least 2 weeks to build. So you get off at five by the time you finish the "death race" home it’s around 6 if some fether dint slam his car into the wall. You eat dinner and then listen to the wife bitch for an hour after about some meaningless chore she wants you to do. Take a shower now because your all sweaty it’s close to 8:30 9:00, gak! You have to get up at 6:00am for work and start this gakky meaningless life over again, well feth painting tonight. Saturday rolls around option #1) take care of gak that broke/grew/fell/collected around the house. #2) play that army you spent $1,500.00 on #3) Go buy hundreds of $ in paint then spent all day painting.

I'll just play the game after I mow the lawn since my friends that have no job live with mom and have painted armies dont get up till noon!

If this is your real argument against painting, then it's a weak one. I know a whole crew of guys, myself included who are married, have professions, have kids, houses, and even other hobbies, and every_single_one of them has a fully painted army up to 2k. I have 2k in Orks painted, and my good friends has 2k in IG. So, no, it's not something that can't be done with other responsibilities. Also, Hundreds in paints is hyperbole. I painted my whole Ork army for about 30 bucks in paint, and that was fairly extravagant.

Once again, I don't really care if someone else doesn't paint their army, but at least admit it's a lack of enjoyment and investment in that particular activity, or that it's pure laziness. Either way, making time isn't a real issue for any normal human being.

Slipstream wrote:It may not seem fun at first but I guarentee you that once you learn how to paint a model in a tidy manner you'll get a huge boost and you'll want to paint more. Also it is a great feeling to see your projects really take shape, why just stop at the modelling/conversion part when paint will bring your creations to life?

I have met people that insist on painted armies and yet they regularly play on tables that look like total ass.

Where do you draw the line with painting/visual elements?

A bad table destroys the visual element just as much as an unpainted army supposedly does imho, yet we see far ylees hue and cry over bad terrain/tables (or lack thereof).

Take the average tournament gamer/event: You better have a painted army but yet half the tables look like total garbage...

I have had people refuse to let me use an unpainted unit/model yet they then go ahead and play on a table of mismatched terrain that is chipped, falling apart and of various quality and scales.


Every gamer should be required to make a detailed/themed/ and varied table and terrain set as wel. Otherwise they are "making no attempt" to support the asthetics of tabletop wargaming that I have decided need to be one of everyone's priority...

[/sarcasm]

matphat wrote:

Primestick wrote:So you have to work to buy the $1,500.00 army that takes at least 2 weeks to build. So you get off at five by the time you finish the "death race" home it’s around 6 if some fether dint slam his car into the wall. You eat dinner and then listen to the wife bitch for an hour after about some meaningless chore she wants you to do. Take a shower now because your all sweaty it’s close to 8:30 9:00, gak! You have to get up at 6:00am for work and start this gakky meaningless life over again, well feth painting tonight. Saturday rolls around option #1) take care of gak that broke/grew/fell/collected around the house. #2) play that army you spent $1,500.00 on #3) Go buy hundreds of $ in paint then spent all day painting.

I'll just play the game after I mow the lawn since my friends that have no job live with mom and have painted armies dont get up till noon!

If this is your real argument against painting, then it's a weak one. I know a whole crew of guys, myself included who are married, have professions, have kids, houses, and even other hobbies, and every_single_one of them has a fully painted army up to 2k. I have 2k in Orks painted, and my good friends has 2k in IG. So, no, it's not something that can't be done with other responsibilities. Also, Hundreds in paints is hyperbole. I painted my whole Ork army for about 30 bucks in paint, and that was fairly extravagant.

That's nice. I can provide anecdotal evidence about my married friends that don't have their armies painted because they work full time.

Anecdotal evidence is worthless is these discussions.

Also, I'm glad you can paint your army in only 10 colors, but for those of us with multiple armies, paint is far from an insignificant amount of money. I know I have at least 120 different pots in my box.

I'm not expecting everybody or anybody to paint to golden demon standard, far from it. Normally, I'm a laid back, casual kind of person, but if there is one thing that gets my goat about the hobby is WAAC players with unpainted armies lecturing me on rules, or handing out a beat down.

Now, there are WAAC with great looking armies, and obviously, I don't mind losing games of warhammer or whatever, i'm used to it, believe you me but in my experience, unpainted armies and obnoxious players, or players who add little to the hobby and gaming experience, go hand in hand. That's not meant as an insult, I'm just going by my past experience.

Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:I'm not expecting everybody or anybody to paint to golden demon standard, far from it. Normally, I'm a laid back, casual kind of person, but if there is one thing that gets my goat about the hobby is WAAC players with unpainted armies lecturing me on rules, or handing out a beat down.

Now, there are WAAC with great looking armies, and obviously, I don't mind losing games of warhammer or whatever, i'm used to it, believe you me but in my experience, unpainted armies and obnoxious players, or players who add little to the hobby and gaming experience, go hand in hand. That's not meant as an insult, I'm just going by my past experience.

Your experience isn't global. I'm used to the opposite, actually, since the painters tend to be even more invested than the non-painters.

Platuan4th wrote:
That's nice. I can provide anecdotal evidence about my married friends that don't have their armies painted because they work full time.

Anecdotal evidence is worthless is these discussions.

Also, I'm glad you can paint your army in only 10 colors, but for those of us with multiple armies, paint is far from an insignificant amount of money. I know I have at least 120 different pots in my box.

This whole thread is nothing but anecdotal evidence. Doesn't change the fact that any normal 1st worlder can make the time for hobbies. What I am saying is it's about priorities.
No one just eats, sleeps, works, and toils. If you have time to buy, build, and play and army, you have time to paint it. You just choose NOT to. People saying that they don't paint because it's out of their control (time, skill, etc...) are making excuses.

Also, not everyone pays $3 a pot for paint.

matphat wrote:

Platuan4th wrote:
That's nice. I can provide anecdotal evidence about my married friends that don't have their armies painted because they work full time.

Anecdotal evidence is worthless is these discussions.

Also, I'm glad you can paint your army in only 10 colors, but for those of us with multiple armies, paint is far from an insignificant amount of money. I know I have at least 120 different pots in my box.

This whole thread is nothing but anecdotal evidence. Doesn't change the fact that any normal 1st worlder can make the time for hobbies. What I am saying is it's about priorities.
No one just eats, sleeps, works, and toils. If you have time to buy, build, and play and army, you have time to paint it. You just choose NOT to.

Actually, I choose TO, I can just see the arguments for not painting.

What is a "normal first worlder"? I have a friend whose army isn't painted because she's all but married to her job. Seriously, she often literally works herself sick because they have her convinced there's nothing more important than work. She forgets to eat, they call her in at weird hours to deal with Airmen, she probably only sleeps 3-4 hours a night all because of her job. She's actully taking Voluntary Severance for her physical and mental health.

Everyone's situation is different, which is why anecdotal evidence doesn't work.

Alright, I'll say it even more plainly. I'm seriously not trying to argue here. I'm just trying to point out one simple bit of logic.

"If you have time to buy, build, and play and army, you have time to paint it. You just choose NOT to."

Saldiven wrote:This thread-subject comes up every few months, and it always plays out the same way. Some people out their are so narcissistic that they cannot accept that other people do not derive enjoyment from the same aspects of these games as they, themselves, do.

To be fair, that goes for other parts of the hobby as well... For evey painter who can't understand why people play the game with unpainted minis, there's another player who can't understand why people play the game with less than optimal army lists.

People enjoy the different aspects of the hobby in different ways. While I much prefer playing against painted armies, I'm not going to expect a potential opponent to share that preference.

I think 40k is an expensive hobby if you don't enjoy the painting aspect.

Granted some people don't convert models.. some people suck at playing.. they're all just different aspects.

I enjoy playing against painted armies more, but not by a lot. After all if I'm playing then I'm playing... not admiring paint jobs.

matphat wrote:Alright, I'll say it even more plainly. I'm seriously not trying to argue here. I'm just trying to point out one simple bit of logic.

"If you have time to buy, build, and play and army, you have time to paint it. You just choose NOT to."

And yet, you willfully ignore the opposite of that logic:

If you can only chose ONE due to time, why does it have to be paint if you'd rather do the other option?

This street goes both ways, you "must paint" proponents simply refuse to accept that.

Chowderhead wrote:
Will I ever turn down an opponent who spray painted his BA red and left it at that? Hell no! Will I ever insult a grey army? No! If I see a nicely painted army, do I want to play it with my painted army more than a grey one? Yes, because it looks damn cool.

I agree completely.

I will however say that while the model count for the GW core games has never been higher, at the same time it has never been easier to batch paint. Painting Blood Angels? Can of Army Painter red spray, dip or dab on their light shade and jobs a good 'un. I would argue that even a deranged baboon, confined to a cave within the amazon, blind and deaf and with no conception of the outside world, could still make a decent enough job using those simple techniques.

I would take this a hundred times over the unpainted, unassembled BA army that turns up week after week. Personally I would be ashamed to do that and to place it on the table, but then I guess it comes down to if you believe in that whole 'social contract' thing and care at all about the kind of experience that your opponent will have.

I get more enjoyment out of my painted armies than I do unpainted ones. That is my cup o' tea. I do appreciate those folks who want to take the time to paint for hours on end but I also feel those that do not want to paint , should not feel obligated. You can choose who you play against but do not be surprised if people resent you for not playing against a non painted army. just my two cents.

I try to paint everything I have before I get new stuff. Including basing. As it is I have the entirety of my Everblight to paint and my LOTR to base. And a Unit of Uruk-Hai to paint.

It really pays off to paint. I'm proud of my Beastmen army, and I won a tourney even though I lost nearly half the games I played, but because my army was the only one fully painted. I got a score that toppled everyone else by a hair.

Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:I'm not expecting everybody or anybody to paint to golden demon standard, far from it. Normally, I'm a laid back, casual kind of person, but if there is one thing that gets my goat about the hobby is WAAC players with unpainted armies lecturing me on rules, or handing out a beat down.

Now, there are WAAC with great looking armies, and obviously, I don't mind losing games of warhammer or whatever, i'm used to it, believe you me but in my experience, unpainted armies and obnoxious players, or players who add little to the hobby and gaming experience, go hand in hand. That's not meant as an insult, I'm just going by my past experience.

So you down with me kicking you in the junk? It'll get my 5 models per month painted.

Your preference is to exclude nice people who just can't stand painting. Are you okay with that? And you're including lazy people who pay for someone else to convert and paint minis.
Remember, I'm not talking about lazy or people who make excuses about time...
I'm talking about just hating the actual act of painting.

However much you try to say it isn't, painting/modeling is separate from actually playing the game.

Multi-tasking can always help. You think I'm sitting here at a laptop just posting on this forum? No chance. I'm getting some painting done as I type, plus I'm ordering some shopping from a major UK supermarket. I feel smug

Seriously, though, at the end of the day, it's just plastic minis, and it's not worth getting argumentative with other people. Each to their own, it's just that my personal preference is painted armies. Thank you and good night.

Kirasu wrote:I think 40k is an expensive hobby if you don't enjoy the painting aspect.

This won't be agreed upon by everybody, but it is a very good point. I don't mind the cost because of the hours spent assembling & painting, plus the endless hours of playing once it's done. I feel like it is an overall solid investment of entertainment dollars when you have all those aspects.

Platuan4th wrote:

matphat wrote:Alright, I'll say it even more plainly. I'm seriously not trying to argue here. I'm just trying to point out one simple bit of logic.

"If you have time to buy, build, and play and army, you have time to paint it. You just choose NOT to."

And yet, you willfully ignore the opposite of that logic:

If you can only chose ONE due to time, why does it have to be paint if you'd rather do the other option?

This street goes both ways, you "must paint" proponents simply refuse to accept that.

No. Not ignoring it. I'm simply stating that if you choose not to paint, it's your choice, and you should be able to admit that you choose not to paint, as opposed to saying "I WOULD have a painted army, if I had the TIME." You DO have the time you just prioritize it elsewhere.

I'm starting to think you are trying to make an argument where there is none. I'm not trying to argue that someone SHOULD paint their army instead of playing, I just think they should ADMIT to prioritizing playing over painting instead of out right B.S.ing and saying they are victims of a time limitation. It isn't time limiting you, it's you.

That's the last thing I'll say on it, because I think you genuinely don't understand my intent, and I'm not going continue to try and coax the understanding out of you.

inquisitorlewis wrote:

Kirasu wrote:I think 40k is an expensive hobby if you don't enjoy the painting aspect.

This won't be agreed upon by everybody, but it is a very good point. I don't mind the cost because of the hours spent assembling & painting, plus the endless hours of playing once it's done. I feel like it is an overall solid investment of entertainment dollars when you have all those aspects.

Hell, I DO enjoy painting and I think 40K is expensive.

I'd say too expensive, but I'm really bad about only buying what I need. I LOVE options and constantly changing my lists. It's why I own enough Cryx for Unbound and every 40K army except Necrons(sold off) and Black Templars(don't care about). Also, every AT-43 army, 3 tackle boxes of Heroclix, 4-5 Fantasy armies...


I have a problem(but it's not painting, as most of it is)...

I paint a squad per month not including the rhino. I log down each hour I paint so I know when to stop. After 30 hours, even if it's before the months end I stop painting the squad and consider it done. I've been painting my army this way and it makes it less a hassle. Ive spent about 80 hours so far pai ring my necrons.

I have always wondered about the hobby nazis who dont have the same level of painting/fluff knowledge as a lot of us competitive guys. I have encountered, at least locally, a segment of the 40k population that likes to talk up the hobby and fluff aspect, and talk down the gamin aspect, without actually being good at the hobby or fluff aspect. The local guys who run tough armies tend to also win best painted and have the best fluff knowledge. I think this is something thats largely ignored in these discussions, the extremely well rounded gamer.

Honestly, the only reason why I havn't painted my IG is because of the model count....and the fact that the people that have 6 wonderfully painted armies, still judge you on your "iffy" looking models as they tend to think you put in as little work as possible to get it done because your lazy. This motivates me not to paint. The only time I buckle down and get sizable amounts of models done is when I have a deadline (i.e. I just painted my entire Empire army for a painting contest).

I hate painting = I don't Paint.

Just like


I hate letting some guy kick me in the nuts = i don't let him kick me in the nuts.


If you don't like me not painting, paint my damn army for me!

Pacific wrote:
I would take this a hundred times over the unpainted, unassembled BA army that turns up week after week. Personally I would be ashamed to do that and to place it on the table, but then I guess it comes down to if you believe in that whole 'social contract' thing and care at all about the kind of experience that your opponent will have.

I consider it part of the social contract to not be condemned as some sort of inferior being based on a completely arbitrary standard. I get the feeling some people here just look for reasons to feel superior. It's like listening to "ethical" vegetarians.

Why would I care if someone's models were painted or not? Why would I even care if they were models?

I just want to play.

Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
Each to their own, it's just that my personal preference is painted armies. Thank you and good night.

Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:As far as I'm concerned, people who don't paint = lazy b******s!!!

Pick a viewpoint and stick with it, please. You can't have both the "yeah they are lazy expletives!" and "each to their own."

lord_blackfang wrote:

Pacific wrote:
I would take this a hundred times over the unpainted, unassembled BA army that turns up week after week. Personally I would be ashamed to do that and to place it on the table, but then I guess it comes down to if you believe in that whole 'social contract' thing and care at all about the kind of experience that your opponent will have.

I consider it part of the social contract to not be condemned as some sort of inferior being based on a completely arbitrary standard. I get the feeling some people here just look for reasons to feel superior. It's like listening to "ethical" vegetarians.

Actually yeah, thats a really good argument. As someone who is a vegetarian I can tell you I have never bitched at somebody else for eating meat, and feel that doing so puts you in the donkey-cave category. I do it for ethical reasons, but I understand that others may not follow those same choices/beliefs and so I stfu about it. I actually dont tell people, and often times friends find out months after getting to know me.

If you want to paint your models and enjoy that, fine, I hope you enjoy the hobby. I showed up to the last tournament in a $60 shirt, $50 shorts, and $100 shoes. Should I expect the guy in sketchers, cargo shorts, and a really old plain t shirt dress to my standards? From now on, if you arent dressed as well as me, I will look down on you and refuse to play you.

Eidolon wrote:

lord_blackfang wrote:

Pacific wrote:
I would take this a hundred times over the unpainted, unassembled BA army that turns up week after week. Personally I would be ashamed to do that and to place it on the table, but then I guess it comes down to if you believe in that whole 'social contract' thing and care at all about the kind of experience that your opponent will have.

I consider it part of the social contract to not be condemned as some sort of inferior being based on a completely arbitrary standard. I get the feeling some people here just look for reasons to feel superior. It's like listening to "ethical" vegetarians.

Actually yeah, thats a really good argument. As someone who is a vegetarian I can tell you I have never bitched at somebody else for eating meat, and feel that doing so puts you in the donkey-cave category. I do it for ethical reasons, but I understand that others may not follow those same choices/beliefs and so I stfu about it. I actually dont tell people, and often times friends find out months after getting to know me.

If you want to paint your models and enjoy that, fine, I hope you enjoy the hobby. I showed up to the last tournament in a $60 shirt, $50 shorts, and $100 shoes. Should I expect the guy in sketchers, cargo shorts, and a really old plain t shirt dress to my standards? From now on, if you arent dressed as well as me, I will look down on you and refuse to play you.

Eidolon, you've made it into my top 10 favorite Dakkites with this post. Thank you for being a generally awesome person.

Lord_blackfang gets super special honorary mention with his. He's climbing the charts.

Lack of time and energy prevents me from painting alot.

When I was unemployed it took me about a month to complete my 1500pts tzeentch daemons army.

Now I work fulltime and its taken about a year to paint my 1500pt DE army.

My personal preference is to play painted armies. I do realise the difference between a new army and one that a player has not painted after several years. I would not refuse to play an unpainted army. As curran12 points out, there are many reasons as to why an army is unpainted sometimes beyond the owner's control.

That said, the four or five games I have enjoyed least have been against unpainted armies. By "unpainted" (which is being generous) I mean not on bases, many bewildering proxies and some amazing rule bending. I even played the same person twice just out of curiosity to see what else he would try. The plasma pistol armed, bionically tooled up (unpainted) Kell was an absolute hoot. Especially as he developed some kind of "I'll be back" rule to boot.

To that end, in my experience, lack of paint on an opponent's army has equalled less enjoyment of a game.

The time factor excuse is utter rubbish, there are plenty of spray paints, washes and quick shades out there which can make a decent looking, inexpensive, quick paint scheme.

MetalOxide wrote:The time factor excuse is utter rubbish, there are plenty of spray paints, washes and quick shades out there which can make a decent looking, inexpensive, quick paint scheme.

What if I dont want to spend money on painting? Its not worth it money wise for me to buy army painter?

MetalOxide wrote:The time factor excuse is utter rubbish, there are plenty of spray paints, washes and quick shades out there which can make a decent looking, inexpensive, quick paint scheme.

Great. How many people have made time an excuse?
Less than fingers on one hand I'd bet.

You're ignoring the fact that painting sucks. Not my ability - the activity.

Maybe if I kick myself in the junk enough I'll start to like it....

hotsauceman1 wrote:Ok, So today i went to a warmachine league to see if i like that game and see if anyone is willing to help me learn a little(they did alot)
But i noticed, alot of people still dont have painted armies, and i dont mean models in the army that arent painted, i mean feilds of gray. This is the same at my 40k night.
Out of the 8-10 people ther only 3 can field a fully painted 1500 the rest have primer and show they give a little bit about painting. This may change though because we will be giving people points for the campaign for coming with a fully painted army.
But is it too much to ask people at least attempt to paint there armys? I know alot of people dont have the time but i see people buying more and never painting.
Am i asking to much?

Yes you are asking too much. If the person who OWNs the models doesn't WANT to or TRY to paint their models it is no business of yours or anyone elses. If the League requires them to be painted then and only then must they field painted armies. Your opinion has no bearing of what they do with the models they OWN. If you don't wish to play them, then don't. That is YOUR right as you OWN your models and your time.

This is a similar issue with Bronies, PETA, Religous people, Democrats, Republicans, etc... The whole "my opinion holds more water than theirs and therefore must be heeded" point of view. Opinions are just Thoughts based on limited and anecdotal evidence from a personal point ov view. That's it! Just because you have an opinion about what you perceive as right, does not make it right. It has no weight nor does it have any relevance on how another person conducts their life.

It doesn't matter if the guy with an unpainted army has no time, no desire, or no hands YOU have no bearing on his property nor on his enjoyment of the game.

UsdiThunder wrote:

hotsauceman1 wrote:Ok, So today i went to a warmachine league to see if i like that game and see if anyone is willing to help me learn a little(they did alot)
But i noticed, alot of people still dont have painted armies, and i dont mean models in the army that arent painted, i mean feilds of gray. This is the same at my 40k night.
Out of the 8-10 people ther only 3 can field a fully painted 1500 the rest have primer and show they give a little bit about painting. This may change though because we will be giving people points for the campaign for coming with a fully painted army.
But is it too much to ask people at least attempt to paint there armys? I know alot of people dont have the time but i see people buying more and never painting.
Am i asking to much?

Yes you are asking too much. If the person who OWNs the models doesn't WANT to or TRY to paint their models it is no business of yours or anyone elses. If the League requires them to be painted then and only then must they field painted armies. Your opinion has no bearing of what they do with the models they OWN. If you don't wish to play them, then don't. That is YOUR right as you OWN your models and your time.

This is a similar issue with Bronies, PETA, Religous people, Democrats, Republicans, etc... The whole "my opinion holds more water than theirs and therefore must be heeded" point of view. Opinions are just Thoughts based on limited and anecdotal evidence from a personal point ov view. That's it! Just because you have an opinion about what you perceive as right, does not make it right. It has no weight nor does it have any relevance on how another person conducts their life.

It doesn't matter if the guy with an unpainted army has no time, no desire, or no hands YOU have no bearing on his property nor on his enjoyment of the game.

I think its worth pointing out that tournaments/leagues probably shouldnt require a 3 color minimum for this reason, but instead should have a totally separate painting category.

Eidolon wrote:

UsdiThunder wrote:

hotsauceman1 wrote:Ok, So today i went to a warmachine league to see if i like that game and see if anyone is willing to help me learn a little(they did alot)
But i noticed, alot of people still dont have painted armies, and i dont mean models in the army that arent painted, i mean feilds of gray. This is the same at my 40k night.
Out of the 8-10 people ther only 3 can field a fully painted 1500 the rest have primer and show they give a little bit about painting. This may change though because we will be giving people points for the campaign for coming with a fully painted army.
But is it too much to ask people at least attempt to paint there armys? I know alot of people dont have the time but i see people buying more and never painting.
Am i asking to much?

Yes you are asking too much. If the person who OWNs the models doesn't WANT to or TRY to paint their models it is no business of yours or anyone elses. If the League requires them to be painted then and only then must they field painted armies. Your opinion has no bearing of what they do with the models they OWN. If you don't wish to play them, then don't. That is YOUR right as you OWN your models and your time.

This is a similar issue with Bronies, PETA, Religous people, Democrats, Republicans, etc... The whole "my opinion holds more water than theirs and therefore must be heeded" point of view. Opinions are just Thoughts based on limited and anecdotal evidence from a personal point ov view. That's it! Just because you have an opinion about what you perceive as right, does not make it right. It has no weight nor does it have any relevance on how another person conducts their life.

It doesn't matter if the guy with an unpainted army has no time, no desire, or no hands YOU have no bearing on his property nor on his enjoyment of the game.

I think its worth pointing out that tournaments/leagues probably shouldnt require a 3 color minimum for this reason, but instead should have a totally separate painting category.

Warmachine ones do, at least the Journeyman League. There's even a Journeyman Badge for having the most Hobby(read: painting) points at the end.

In the end, Eidolon that's up to the Organizer or the Press Ganger. For the Organizer it's a way to stir up paint sales if they are the store owner as well. For the Press Ganger it's also helping PP sell paints. Either way it is usually documented what is expected of the players that sign up for the Leagues/Tournaments.

My point is that the OP is asking too much if he is not the organizer and just some guy off the street. If the Organizer doesn't require it then The OP has no say in it.

Interesting discussion.

I'm a painter rather than a player. I've got a sizable Menoth and Merc army for Warmachine, and have just inherited IG, SM and Eldar armies for 40k, and have started a new painting frenzy. I also paint the odd units for friends.

I've probably played 5-6 games of Warmachine, and none yet of 40k, but have hundreds of painting hours under my belt. I'm pretty sure I'm in a significant minority here!

I have no problem whatsoever with any store owner, tournament organizer, or game group that puts some kind of arbitrary restrictions on how play happens within their store/club/tourney. I realize that there is a segment of wargamers who might truly not enjoy playing against an unpainted army, and that is fine. What gets my panties in a twist is when those same people want to tell me I'm lazy for not painting my army, or that I am somehow insulting them for having the gall to try and play a game of toy soldiers without having lovingly painted them first.

pancakeonions wrote:Interesting discussion.

I'm a painter rather than a player. I've got a sizable Menoth and Merc army for Warmachine, and have just inherited IG, SM and Eldar armies for 40k, and have started a new painting frenzy. I also paint the odd units for friends.

I've probably played 5-6 games of Warmachine, and none yet of 40k, but have hundreds of painting hours under my belt. I'm pretty sure I'm in a significant minority here!

I'm not sure if you're really in a small minority or a minority at all. I know quite a few people that collect and paint but rarely or never play, and there are many here on dakka.

If people are looking for a game of skill and strategy that doesn't involve painting, then why not play chess?

curran12, I have the right to change my viewpoint, just as I have the right not to play against unpainted armies.

All in all though, in an ideal world, my personal preference is to play against painted armies, but I understand that people are busy, can't be assed, have the right to do what they want with their property etc etc. That is their perogative.

I don't think any less of people for it, but I would always encourage people to paint. Like I said, it's just plastic soldiers at the end of the day.

Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:If people are looking for a game of skill and strategy that doesn't involve painting, then why not play chess?

I do play chess. I also happen to enjoy playing warhammer and a few other miniature wargames.

All in all though, in an ideal world, my personal preference is to play against painted armies, but I understand that people are busy, can't be assed, have the right to do what they want with their property etc etc. That is their perogative.

I'm sure there are plenty of people with painted armies around for you to play against. So what is your problem then? Just wanted to start a thread to label those who don't paint their armies as lazy?

I don't think any less of people for it, but I would always encourage people to paint. Like I said, it's just plastic soldiers at the end of the day.

You say this, and in previous posts you call them out as lazy. Which is it?

helium42 wrote:

Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:If people are looking for a game of skill and strategy that doesn't involve painting, then why not play chess?

I do play chess. I also happen to enjoy playing warhammer and a few other miniature wargames.

I find the variety of ways to win in warhammer more interesting than chess. And its more fun to play socially than chess, at least from my experience, which is a game dominated by old people.

Hey look a thread about me!

5 skeleton warriors.

Basecoat bone with paint X

Wash bone with paint Y

Drybrush bone with paint Z.

Total time less than 1hr. Skill level 2/10

divide 1hr by a month.

I don't think there is anybody on this thread who could truthfully say that they could not do something like the above if they had 4 weeks to do it. Unless of course you had a disability. I knew another person from a tournament that had an undead army full of skeletons. Even after two years, the same army was unpainted.

Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:5 skeleton warriors.

Basecoat bone with paint X

Wash bone with paint Y

Drybrush bone with paint Z.

Total time less than 1hr. Skill level 2/10

divide 1hr by a month.

I don't think there is anybody on this thread who could truthfully say that they could not do something like the above if they had 4 weeks to do it. Unless of course you had a disability. I knew another person from a tournament that had an undead army full of skeletons. Even after two years, the same army was unpainted.

Yeah so? Maybe I just hate painting and that 1 hour a month is a chore. Maybe I feel that my time spent at bars and going on dates and such uses up enough of my money, and I dont want to spend $10 on paints because thats a movie ticket or a 6 pack of beer. Sure, I can find the time to paint an army. 2 years ago I built a jumpers army and painted a nid army in the same month. But now I just dont want to put more colors on models, because slapping 3 colors on looks sloppy and making them look nice is too much effort. Its also worth noting that someone like me plays 2-3 days a week, and so I cant have my army in various stages of painted. I like to do all of 1 step to everything at once, which means I have to find the time to base all 70 of my gk models in one sitting. Finding the time to do that, and wanting to spend the time to do that, generally isnt easy.

What is it to you then? My dollies are grey and ugly, yours are painted and pretty, nobody cares.

Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:If people are looking for a game of skill and strategy that doesn't involve painting, then why not play chess?

Because Chess and 40K are different games, and they want to play 40K?

Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:If people are looking for a game of skill and strategy that doesn't involve painting, then why not play chess?

Because Chess has well written rules.

Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:5 skeleton warriors.

Basecoat bone with paint X

Wash bone with paint Y

Drybrush bone with paint Z.

Total time less than 1hr. Skill level 2/10

divide 1hr by a month.

I don't think there is anybody on this thread who could truthfully say that they could not do something like the above if they had 4 weeks to do it. Unless of course you had a disability. I knew another person from a tournament that had an undead army full of skeletons. Even after two years, the same army was unpainted.

And your point is? Do you not understand that some people simply would rather not paint. When somebody says "I don't have time to paint" I don't think that they are literally saying that they can find zero time, but that they have other things they prefer to do with their time.

Your crusade is not likely to change any minds here, if the plethora of other threads on this subject are any indication.

My advice to you is to seek out people with painted armies to play against so that your tender sensibilities are no longer being hurt by the strain of being forced to look at those nasty unpainted armies. Maybe then you'll feel a little happier about your life and cease feeling the need to troll forums with threads calling out certain segments of people as lazy.

helium42 wrote:
And your point is? Do you not understand that some people simply would rather not paint.

I already asked that and got no response. Realize that this thread has moved on from(or in actuality, never was about) being an actual discussion and it'll be way more fun for ya.

These threads are always about the "must painters" being absolutely right and patting each other on the back about how awesome their version of things is.

I am going to create a 'coolness algorithm' which will compute how cool you are. It takes in your clothing style, ability to hold alcohol, general social skills, number of girls dated/slept with, and playing ability. If your score is below a certain arbitrary level, you are not only not as cool as me, but in fact, not cool enough for me to even bother acknowleding at the game store.

Enjoy being shunned for your lack of awesomeness, pleb.

Look, I totally respect if you don't want to paint your models. It really doesn't erk me to fight gray models or base coated models.

And if you'd rather hire someone to paint your models. That's okay too. There are some great commissioner's here on Dakka.

But looking at a fully painted army you did yourself, after a year or two of planning the army and collecting models and spending the many long nights putting it all together. It feel's fething great.

I don't see how this thread can have anything other than strong views to be honest. In my defence there should have been one of these next to lazy b******s.

Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
I don't think there is anybody on this thread who could truthfully say that they could not do something like the above if they had 4 weeks to do it. Unless of course you had a disability. I knew another person from a tournament that had an undead army full of skeletons. Even after two years, the same army was unpainted.

Are you ignoring the point I (and others) are making?
Or are you going to agree to the junk kicking proposal I've put forward?

I dont get why people that dont want to participate in the hobby, bother playing the game at all. The hobby is the full package.

This whole thing reminds me of when my sister used to play GTA2. She would find a parked car, jump in and then try her best to drive around town legally, obeying traffic signals, and staying in her lane.

Doesnt matter if its fun, its doing it wrong.

This is what has driven me towards historicals. Historical wargamers argue about historical inaccuracies in paint schemes, but they can have those arguments because (almost) all of them are dedicated hobbyists and have painted their miniatures in the first place.

I believe this attitude, that participating in the hobby is not required for gameplay, has come from the intense gameist focus that games workshop has instilled in its customer base. They have decided to make the fields of grey a legitimate tactic, because it helps shift miniatures to those who wouldnt otherwise bother.

I dont mind people who are in the process of painting their armies, and will often help tutor those who are trying to paint their army. But i do get disgruntled with people who buy the army of the month, assemble them poorly, play with them until the next release, then ebay their grey crud. There are games you can play with tokens, there are games with cards that support buying exactly whats on the win list and playing with that, but miniatures wargaming should be firmly off their radar.

Naturally all IMHO

GBL wrote:
Doesnt matter if its fun, its doing it wrong.

Glad we have the correctness police here to throw around their moral authority on everything we do.

Quick everyone, stop having fun playing your games, that's not what they're for.

GBL wrote:I dont get why people that dont want to participate in the hobby, bother playing the game at all. The hobby is the full package.

No, that's your hobby.


The hobby of playing wargames does not intrinsically involve painting miniatures. My RISK boardgame has minatures. I've never felt a need to paint them, nor, I suspect, have the vast majority of people who own the game. And to a lot of gamers, 40K is no different to games like RISK... it's just a boardgame that uses a bigger board.

If your hobby involves painting miniatures, that's fine. For some fishermen, their hobby includes fishing, and also includes building their own rods. That doesn't mean that the people who just buy a rod and go chuck a line in the water are doing it wrong... they're just confining their hobby to the activity that they enjoy... because that's what hobbies are for.

Platuan4th wrote:

GBL wrote:
Doesnt matter if its fun, its doing it wrong.

Glad we have the correctness police here to throw around their moral authority on everything we do.

I know i tempt the BADWRONGFUN meme, but some times it is accurate.

GBL wrote:

Platuan4th wrote:

GBL wrote:
Doesnt matter if its fun, its doing it wrong.

Glad we have the correctness police here to throw around their moral authority on everything we do.

I know i tempt the BADWRONGFUN meme, but some times it is accurate.

Know when it's not?

RIGHT NOW.

There is no wrong way to enjoy or do a legal hobby and thinking otherwise is self-righteous posturing. Hell, if someone took their 40K figures and made pew-pew noises and banged them together like little green army men and enjoyed the hell out of it, they're STILL not doing it wrong.

I almost never convert figures, but I do paint my miniatures. It's a point of pride with me to never field un-painted figures. But I realise that not everyone holds themselves to that standard, So I don't get too concerned about seeing unpainted figures. One way to look at it is that my own armies look all that much better when everyone else in the store has unpainted or partially painted figures!

That being said, there are a number of reputable painting services in third world countires that do good work at a reasonable price. In some cases you can get nice quality work done for about 2$US an infantry model. At those prices, I personally feel there is no excuse for the non-painter NOT to have painted armies. But to each his own....

TR

GBL wrote:I dont get why people that dont want to participate in the hobby, bother playing the game at all. The hobby is the full package.

This whole thing reminds me of when my sister used to play GTA2. She would find a parked car, jump in and then try her best to drive around town legally, obeying traffic signals, and staying in her lane.

Doesnt matter if its fun, its doing it wrong.

This is what has driven me towards historicals. Historical wargamers argue about historical inaccuracies in paint schemes, but they can have those arguments because (almost) all of them are dedicated hobbyists and have painted their miniatures in the first place.

I believe this attitude, that participating in the hobby is not required for gameplay, has come from the intense gameist focus that games workshop has instilled in its customer base. They have decided to make the fields of grey a legitimate tactic, because it helps shift miniatures to those who wouldnt otherwise bother.

I dont mind people who are in the process of painting their armies, and will often help tutor those who are trying to paint their army. But i do get disgruntled with people who buy the army of the month, assemble them poorly, play with them until the next release, then ebay their grey crud. There are games you can play with tokens, there are games with cards that support buying exactly whats on the win list and playing with that, but miniatures wargaming should be firmly off their radar.

Naturally all IMHO

Do you also get angry when people pose their models in poses you dont find realistic? What if my shirt happens to match my armies paint scheme, or doesnt match it? What if I carry my models not in an expensive battlefoam case, but a large cardboard box with those cheap pluck out foam trays in it? What if, instead of drinking mountain dew while playing, I drink a protein shake, or sprite mixed with rum? Sometimes, while my opponent is moving his models, I like to text people. Do all these things, which have nothing to do with you, and no effect on you, also make you angry? Because, I definitely get SO MAD and SO ANGRY about people doing things that trigger my strange ocd over things that dont matter.

insaniak wrote:

GBL wrote:I dont get why people that dont want to participate in the hobby, bother playing the game at all. The hobby is the full package.

If your hobby involves painting miniatures, that's fine. For some fishermen, their hobby includes fishing, and also includes building their own rods. That doesn't mean that the people who just buy a rod and go chuck a line in the water are doing it wrong... they're just confining their hobby to the activity that they enjoy... because that's what hobbies are for.

To extend your own analogy:

What we have isnt fisherman buying their own rods instead of building them, we have fishermen entering contests with unassembled unfinished rods. It would all be fine if said fishermen bought finished rods, nobody would ever know or care, and everyone knows that there are plenty of finished working rods on ebay. Except where the analogy falls apart is that these broken rods still allow people to play and win fishing competitions, where they have put in practically zero effort. A flow on effect is that in fishing competition photos, there are unassembled and broken rods in all the photos.

Doesnt seem good for any of the fishermen concerned, except those who are allowed to compete with broken rods.

I think its find to give them (the non painters) a freindly nudge once in a while. "Hey, nice paint job, Grey Legion?" sure they say they dont have time etc. but thats not the case since they had time to assemble the army etc. paint jobs can be done really quick, especially if they play marines. I think its ok to ask for a little effort since part of the cool factor of the game is seeing painted armies. Just my .02$

GBL wrote:
This whole thing reminds me of when my sister used to play GTA2. She would find a parked car, jump in and then try her best to drive around town legally, obeying traffic signals, and staying in her lane.

I used to do that, it was the ultimate way of bucking the system.

Funnily, the game didn't break, just as 40K (or whatever) won't break due to the light reflecting from the miniatures in certain wavelengths.

Eidolon wrote:

GBL wrote:I dont get why people that dont want to participate in the hobby, bother playing the game at all. The hobby is the full package.

This whole thing reminds me of when my sister used to play GTA2. She would find a parked car, jump in and then try her best to drive around town legally, obeying traffic signals, and staying in her lane.

Doesnt matter if its fun, its doing it wrong.

This is what has driven me towards historicals. Historical wargamers argue about historical inaccuracies in paint schemes, but they can have those arguments because (almost) all of them are dedicated hobbyists and have painted their miniatures in the first place.

I believe this attitude, that participating in the hobby is not required for gameplay, has come from the intense gameist focus that games workshop has instilled in its customer base. They have decided to make the fields of grey a legitimate tactic, because it helps shift miniatures to those who wouldnt otherwise bother.

I dont mind people who are in the process of painting their armies, and will often help tutor those who are trying to paint their army. But i do get disgruntled with people who buy the army of the month, assemble them poorly, play with them until the next release, then ebay their grey crud. There are games you can play with tokens, there are games with cards that support buying exactly whats on the win list and playing with that, but miniatures wargaming should be firmly off their radar.

Naturally all IMHO

Do you also get angry when people pose their models in poses you dont find realistic? What if my shirt happens to match my armies paint scheme, or doesnt match it? What if I carry my models not in an expensive battlefoam case, but a large cardboard box with those cheap pluck out foam trays in it? What if, instead of drinking mountain dew while playing, I drink a protein shake, or sprite mixed with rum? Sometimes, while my opponent is moving his models, I like to text people. Do all these things, which have nothing to do with you, and no effect on you, also make you angry? Because, I definitely get SO MAD and SO ANGRY about people doing things that trigger my strange ocd over things that dont matter.

I dont care if you spray paint your whole army pink, and drybrush blue over your commander model, what matters is an attempt to show participation.

Doesnt matter near me, all of the local tournaments i have been to require 3 colours over every model minimum.

But sure, imply i have a problem with your shirt, because thats relevant.

GBL wrote:

insaniak wrote:

GBL wrote:I dont get why people that dont want to participate in the hobby, bother playing the game at all. The hobby is the full package.

If your hobby involves painting miniatures, that's fine. For some fishermen, their hobby includes fishing, and also includes building their own rods. That doesn't mean that the people who just buy a rod and go chuck a line in the water are doing it wrong... they're just confining their hobby to the activity that they enjoy... because that's what hobbies are for.

To extend your own analogy:

What we have isnt fisherman buying their own rods instead of building them, we have fishermen entering contests with unassembled unfinished rods. It would all be fine if said fishermen bought finished rods, nobody would ever know or care, and everyone knows that there are plenty of finished working rods on ebay. Except where the analogy falls apart is that these broken rods still allow people to play and win fishing competitions, where they have put in practically zero effort. A flow on effect is that in fishing competition photos, there are unassembled and broken rods in all the photos.

Doesnt seem good for any of the fishermen concerned, except those who are allowed to compete with broken rods.

Oh noes, unassembled and broken rods in the photos. Nobody gave a feth, because the fishermen who won the fishing competition still did it through being honest. I like how you assume painting should have some kind of bearing on your performance on the table top. Do you enjoy painting for paintings sake? If so, then stfu and enjoy painting. If you enjoy it so you can show up to the lgs and feel better about yourself for having color on your models, consider counseling. A lot, and I mean a lot, of the people who win tournaments also know the fluff inside and out, and paint very well.

Upload a photo of some of your painted models, I want to critique them.

GBL wrote:What we have isnt fisherman buying their own rods instead of building them, we have fishermen entering contests with unassembled unfinished rods.

No, we don't, since an unassembled fishing rod woul dbe functionally useless.

An unpainted miniature is not. It's just not as pretty, (although given some of the paintjobs I've seen over the years, even that is questionable at times).


So really, what your argument boils down to is that people arent allowed to play unless their army is up to your personal standard.

GBL wrote:

But sure, imply i have a problem with your shirt, because thats relevant.

No, thats the point, its totally irrelevant, just like other people not painting their models is, or at least SHOULD be irrelevant to your enjoyment of warhammer.

I think that the hobby can be achieved in various phases.


First phase: I bought my necrons, started to glue them together. Then me and my friends started playing.

Phase two: I need moar. I bought my nids army. Still, no painting done.

Phase three: after all this playing, converting stuff, reading about the lore and getting dizzy from glue vapors, I think I'm ready to paint some easy stuff. I started with my necrons warriors and lords. Everage results. It's ok. My friends like them, I like them.

Phase four: gak just got real. I'm now doing some nids, I'm even doing some ink, dry brushing, doing stuff over when I'm not happpy with the results. Surprise, I'm now looking at the painting and modeling tips and triks threads on dakka.


Took me 2 years to start painting and like it. Same for some of my friends. It may take you 1, 2, 3 or 6 years, it will come in time

hotsauceman1 wrote:
But is it too much to ask people at least attempt to paint there armys? I know alot of people dont have the time but i see people buying more and never painting.
Am i asking to much?

Yes it is.

Not everyone approaches the hobby the same way. Some only like to paint. Some like to convert. Some like to play. Some like to do it all. Not everyone comes at it the same way.

Eidolon wrote:No, thats the point, its totally irrelevant, just like other people not painting their models is, or at least SHOULD be irrelevant to your enjoyment of warhammer.

To be fair, for those who enjoy the game more for the visual aspect of having two fully painted armies on a table full of terrain, an opponent with an unpainted army does affect their enjoyment of the game.

But that doesn't mean that the guy with the unpainted army is doing it wrong... just that, if you think it's going to affect your enjoyment significantly, he's someone you're better off not playing against.

charley29 wrote:Took me 2 years to start painting and like it. Same for some of my friends. It may take you 1, 2, 3 or 6 years, it will come in time

Took me 2 years to start getting kicked in the junk on a regular basis. Same for some of my friends. It may take you 1, 2, 3, or 6 years, it will come in time.

I am present. I cannot paint nor do i want to. Considering how many models I have. For people like me, i just don't have time to paint. Helk I can't even play wargames right now because i am so busy.

insaniak wrote:

Eidolon wrote:No, thats the point, its totally irrelevant, just like other people not painting their models is, or at least SHOULD be irrelevant to your enjoyment of warhammer.

To be fair, for those who enjoy the game more for the visual aspect of having two fully painted armies on a table full of terrain, an opponent with an unpainted army does affect their enjoyment of the game.

But that doesn't mean that the guy with the unpainted army is doing it wrong... just that, if you think it's going to affect your enjoyment significantly, he's someone you're better off not playing against.

Sure, but I dont see people with unpainted armies posting about how those with painted armies make them feel bad and destroy their enjoyment of the game by making their models look ugly.

Eidolon wrote:

insaniak wrote:

Eidolon wrote:No, thats the point, its totally irrelevant, just like other people not painting their models is, or at least SHOULD be irrelevant to your enjoyment of warhammer.

To be fair, for those who enjoy the game more for the visual aspect of having two fully painted armies on a table full of terrain, an opponent with an unpainted army does affect their enjoyment of the game.

But that doesn't mean that the guy with the unpainted army is doing it wrong... just that, if you think it's going to affect your enjoyment significantly, he's someone you're better off not playing against.

Sure, but I dont see people with unpainted armies posting about how those with painted armies make them feel bad and destroy their enjoyment of the game by making their models look ugly.

Wait, haven't a few people in this very thre... OOOOOHHH.

insaniak wrote:

Eidolon wrote:No, thats the point, its totally irrelevant, just like other people not painting their models is, or at least SHOULD be irrelevant to your enjoyment of warhammer.

To be fair, for those who enjoy the game more for the visual aspect of having two fully painted armies on a table full of terrain, an opponent with an unpainted army does affect their enjoyment of the game.

But that doesn't mean that the guy with the unpainted army is doing it wrong... just that, if you think it's going to affect your enjoyment significantly, he's someone you're better off not playing against.

I have to agree with the above statement.
Playing on a nice battlefield with nicely modeled and created terrain with two armies that are both fully painted is (for me) way more fun that facing a grey legion. I am not saying that there is anything i can do to make someone paint their army so that i inherently enjoy the game more (other than taking a gentle poke at their grey legion), but i appreciate when people at least try to paint. Part of the reason that the battle reports from White dwarf look so cool is the fact that the armies are painted and the terrain is so nice.

Platuan4th wrote:

Eidolon wrote:

insaniak wrote:

Eidolon wrote:No, thats the point, its totally irrelevant, just like other people not painting their models is, or at least SHOULD be irrelevant to your enjoyment of warhammer.

To be fair, for those who enjoy the game more for the visual aspect of having two fully painted armies on a table full of terrain, an opponent with an unpainted army does affect their enjoyment of the game.

But that doesn't mean that the guy with the unpainted army is doing it wrong... just that, if you think it's going to affect your enjoyment significantly, he's someone you're better off not playing against.

Sure, but I dont see people with unpainted armies posting about how those with painted armies make them feel bad and destroy their enjoyment of the game by making their models look ugly.

Wait, haven't a few people in this very thre... OOOOOHHH.

I also dont see competitive gamers posting about how people running poor lists effects their enjoyment of the game, we just wont play you as its not what we are looking for. I dont bring this up to try and stir another slowed hobby v competitive circlejerk, but because I want to know why the paint nazis seem to get buttpained over the idea of losing to an unpainted army.

insaniak wrote:

GBL wrote:What we have isnt fisherman buying their own rods instead of building them, we have fishermen entering contests with unassembled unfinished rods.

No, we don't, since an unassembled fishing rod woul dbe functionally useless.

An unpainted miniature is not. It's just not as pretty, (although given some of the paintjobs I've seen over the years, even that is questionable at times).


So really, what your argument boils down to is that people arent allowed to play unless their army is up to your personal standard.

Not what i was getting at. I just find it odd they are involved at all.. People "Arent allowed to paint at all". but its not much of an ask that people participate.

Oh noes, unassembled and broken rods in the photos. Nobody gave a feth, because the fishermen who won the fishing competition still did it through being honest. I like how you assume painting should have some kind of bearing on your performance on the table top. Do you enjoy painting for paintings sake? If so, then stfu and enjoy painting. If you enjoy it so you can show up to the lgs and feel better about yourself for having color on your models, consider counseling. A lot, and I mean a lot, of the people who win tournaments also know the fluff inside and out, and paint very well.

Upload a photo of some of your painted models, I want to critique them.

Sure thing. This mini took about 15 minutes total time hands on to paint, and it only took that long because of my damn shaky hands. I used one of millions of painting tutorials to help me. (the exact one is here: http://camospecs.com/Article.asp?FictionID=33)




THE OP was about people who put NO attempt toward painting models, and that is the problem. I havent said anything against poorly painted models or slow painting in progress.

Nicely painted mini sir. I would have no qualms about facing your shaky handed paint job. it looks great to me.

Eidolon wrote:I also dont see competitive gamers posting about how people running poor lists effects their enjoyment of the game, we just wont play you as its not what we are looking for.

I can think of one or two players have complained incessantly about how people bringing poor lists to tournaments and being generally crap at strategy are ruining the tournament scene, and how the people out there consistenly winning tournaments were doing so not because they were good, but because everyone else was rubbish...

Eidolon wrote:

GBL wrote:

But sure, imply i have a problem with your shirt, because thats relevant.

No, thats the point, its totally irrelevant, just like other people not painting their models is, or at least SHOULD be irrelevant to your enjoyment of warhammer.

No, but it is relevant. As long as you WEAR a shirt i dont care what it is. Would you not wear a shirt it WOULD affect my enjoyment of the game. I dont care if it is a justin bieber t shirt, just wear one. Same with minis. Paint and participate.

At what point does the whole painting standards thing stop though? I have warhammer armies that look at least as good as that model. Does that give me a right to look down my nose at you? If your models dont have multiple highlights and levels of shading, I dont even want to see them on the table, they dont look as pretty as mine and its detrimental to my enjoyment of the game.

insaniak wrote:

Eidolon wrote:I also dont see competitive gamers posting about how people running poor lists effects their enjoyment of the game, we just wont play you as its not what we are looking for.

I can think of one or two players have complained incessantly about how people bringing poor lists to tournaments and being generally crap at strategy are ruining the tournament scene, and how the people out there consistenly winning tournaments were doing so not because they were good, but because everyone else was rubbish...

This is actually verbatim the argument used by some competative gamers as to why they hate to face fluffy lists. Gamers who are WAAAC or rely heavily on fielding the most broke list to win, are individuals that i rarely if ever play against outside of a tourni. On the other hand i often play against grey legion, usually little kids whom i regularly encourage when it comes to painting.

insaniak wrote:

Eidolon wrote:I also dont see competitive gamers posting about how people running poor lists effects their enjoyment of the game, we just wont play you as its not what we are looking for.

I can think of one or two players have complained incessantly about how people bringing poor lists to tournaments and being generally crap at strategy are ruining the tournament scene, and how the people out there consistenly winning tournaments were doing so not because they were good, but because everyone else was rubbish...

Actually myself and a friend commonly attend a local battletech tournament. Thing is, we are both fairly green, and dont get many games in between tournaments. So we tend to act as a free win for the more experienced players, and that has been annoying the people who get only difficult opponents in the draw, as they end up with less points despite being equally skilled. But i think it is more of a problem with the draw than weaker players. But i can see its relevance to this discussion.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Eidolon wrote:At what point does the whole painting standards thing stop though? I have warhammer armies that look at least as good as that model. Does that give me a right to look down my nose at you? If your models dont have multiple highlights and levels of shading, I dont even want to see them on the table, they dont look as pretty as mine and its detrimental to my enjoyment of the game.

I have never had a problem with anyone who tries to paint their miniature, because at that point they are participating, and can be encouraged to do better. Someone who says "lol i dont paint, kills ebay resale value" cannot be encouraged to do better.

The hobby is a process, you arent going to be fantastic straight out of the gate, but everyone in a club/group/store whatever can help everyone to be better, assuming they are willing to be part of the hobby.

Im a decent painter its just one of those things I have to psyche myself up to do. The meat and potatoes of my army is painted just not the specialty units. <.<

GBL wrote:


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Eidolon wrote:At what point does the whole painting standards thing stop though? I have warhammer armies that look at least as good as that model. Does that give me a right to look down my nose at you? If your models dont have multiple highlights and levels of shading, I dont even want to see them on the table, they dont look as pretty as mine and its detrimental to my enjoyment of the game.

I have never had a problem with anyone who tries to paint their miniature, because at that point they are participating, and can be encouraged to do better. Someone who says "lol i dont paint, kills ebay resale value" cannot be encouraged to do better.

The hobby is a process, you arent going to be fantastic straight out of the gate, but everyone in a club/group/store whatever can help everyone to be better, assuming they are willing to be part of the hobby.

Sure but, this isnt THE hobby, its A hobby. Recently I have taken up weight lifting to try and get into better shape. I wasnt out of shape, but I figure I could use some extra muscle. When I go into the gym and see a fat lady walking on the treadmill, or the guy doing high reps low weights, I dont feel they are doing it wrong. Those people simply have different goals. The fat lady is not concerned about packing on muscle, she just wants to lose weight, the other guy probably just wants to tone up and isnt interested in getting big. I know a girl who runs 7 miles a day. I dont think she is working out wrong. I find running incredibly boring and tedious, but more power to her.

So, if I tell you that I am in THE hobby of exercise, do I have to do a certain mix of everything to do it right? Or is the girl going for endurance, and me going for size and strength, just 2 different people with different goals in mind participating in the same general hobby? This isnt THE hobby, its a general hobby made up of various aspects, just like exercising. You can choose to participate in all of them, some of them, or not at all. Some of us do pretty good at all of them. And it shouldnt matter to anyone else. Nobody at the gym complains about other people not participating in their particular workout. Why do people find it necessary to do it with something as trivial as toy soldiers?

sennacherib wrote:
I think winning a tourni has a lot to do with who you draw. some armies are a natural to beat other armies. people who dont buy armies just to field a net list will often show up with whatever models they happen to have that they like to play. At my local tourni scene we have a handicapped kid who loves to come and play. Hes fun to play and whomever faces him always gets an easy win. Should people like this be excluded from playing because they dont have the best available net list.?
I would also like to point out that the handicapped fellow has a fully painted army.

I think netlisting is a flaw of the game in general, but yes it does have a profound negative effect on tournaments.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Eidolon wrote:

GBL wrote:


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Eidolon wrote:At what point does the whole painting standards thing stop though? I have warhammer armies that look at least as good as that model. Does that give me a right to look down my nose at you? If your models dont have multiple highlights and levels of shading, I dont even want to see them on the table, they dont look as pretty as mine and its detrimental to my enjoyment of the game.

I have never had a problem with anyone who tries to paint their miniature, because at that point they are participating, and can be encouraged to do better. Someone who says "lol i dont paint, kills ebay resale value" cannot be encouraged to do better.

The hobby is a process, you arent going to be fantastic straight out of the gate, but everyone in a club/group/store whatever can help everyone to be better, assuming they are willing to be part of the hobby.

Sure but, this isnt THE hobby, its A hobby. Recently I have taken up weight lifting to try and get into better shape. I wasnt out of shape, but I figure I could use some extra muscle. When I go into the gym and see a fat lady walking on the treadmill, or the guy doing high reps low weights, I dont feel they are doing it wrong. Those people simply have different goals. The fat lady is not concerned about packing on muscle, she just wants to lose weight, the other guy probably just wants to tone up and isnt interested in getting big. I know a girl who runs 7 miles a day. I dont think she is working out wrong. I find running incredibly boring and tedious, but more power to her.

So, if I tell you that I am in THE hobby of exercise, do I have to do a certain mix of everything to do it right? Or is the girl going for endurance, and me going for size and strength, just 2 different people with different goals in mind participating in the same general hobby? This isnt THE hobby, its a general hobby made up of various aspects, just like exercising. You can choose to participate in all of them, some of them, or not at all. Some of us do pretty good at all of them. And it shouldnt matter to anyone else. Nobody at the gym complains about other people not participating in their particular workout. Why do people find it necessary to do it with something as trivial as toy soldiers?

All of the people you mentioned are participating. The non painter in your example would be the person who turns up at the gym just to stare at ladies and doesnt use the equipment. They play the game, but they are not invested.

GBL wrote:
All of the people you mentioned are participating. The non painter in your example would be the person who turns up at the gym just to stare at ladies and doesnt use the equipment. They play the game, but they are not invested.

Uh no. I dont think you would complain about someone who shows up to the store once every few months, buys a couple models, goes home to paint them really well, and never plays. If you take the amazingly narrow-minded approach that this is all one big hobby and you have to participate in fluff, modeling, painting, and gaming to say you partcipate, then the guy who shows up to stare at the ladies is the weirdo who shows up to the lgs every saturday but never players or buys models. He doesnt play, doesnt own a model, never did, just watches week after week. The guy who only lifts and is massive might be the painter, the girl who runs a half marathon daily is the competitive gamer, the guy who does a little of everything but nothing hardcore is your average gamer. They all participate in different aspects of the hobby, but to differing degrees.

And one again I ask, why do you care how other people enjoy the hobby? Sure, it took you 15 minutes to slap some drybrushing on that mad cat. But if I have 50 space marines and 5 tanks, thats 12.5 hours just to get my marines to a basic table top standard. If I really hate painting, thats a lot of time invested in something I dont enjoy or care one bit about. Not to mention the money for the paints.

Eidolon wrote:

GBL wrote:
All of the people you mentioned are participating. The non painter in your example would be the person who turns up at the gym just to stare at ladies and doesnt use the equipment. They play the game, but they are not invested.

Uh no. I dont think you would complain about someone who shows up to the store once every few months, buys a couple models, goes home to paint them really well, and never plays. If you take the amazingly narrow-minded approach that this is all one big hobby and you have to participate in fluff, modeling, painting, and gaming to say you partcipate, then the guy who shows up to stare at the ladies is the weirdo who shows up to the lgs every saturday but never players or buys models. He doesnt play, doesnt own a model, never did, just watches week after week.

And one again I ask, why do you care how other people enjoy the hobby? Sure, it took you 15 minutes to slap some drybrushing on that mad cat. But if I have 50 space marines and 5 tanks, thats 12.5 hours just to get my marines to a basic table top standard. If I really hate painting, thats a lot of time invested in something I dont enjoy or care one bit about. Not to mention the money for the paints.

Get some paper minis? If you just want the game, why purchase a component of another hobby? Why would you buy well over 250 dollars (probably twice that, cant be arsed counting) of miniatures just to not use them? I painted my blood angels one at a time, with about an hour total every week. Its not a big investment in time. I spend more time in the shower every week. You wouldnt assemble redcoat miniatures if you werent planning on painting them red? yet people play games with redcoat miniatures all the time. I have never seen anyone play with a "Grey Legion" of WW2 miniatures. What is it about PP and GW that make people buy miniatures, assemble them, cart them around, but not even bothering to dip them in motor oil for shading? Gw really has won hasnt it, plastic crack and all that.

GBL wrote:I have never seen anyone play with a "Grey Legion" of WW2 miniatures.

I have, it's pretty common in Flames of War here.

GBL wrote:

Eidolon wrote:

GBL wrote:
All of the people you mentioned are participating. The non painter in your example would be the person who turns up at the gym just to stare at ladies and doesnt use the equipment. They play the game, but they are not invested.

Uh no. I dont think you would complain about someone who shows up to the store once every few months, buys a couple models, goes home to paint them really well, and never plays. If you take the amazingly narrow-minded approach that this is all one big hobby and you have to participate in fluff, modeling, painting, and gaming to say you partcipate, then the guy who shows up to stare at the ladies is the weirdo who shows up to the lgs every saturday but never players or buys models. He doesnt play, doesnt own a model, never did, just watches week after week.

And one again I ask, why do you care how other people enjoy the hobby? Sure, it took you 15 minutes to slap some drybrushing on that mad cat. But if I have 50 space marines and 5 tanks, thats 12.5 hours just to get my marines to a basic table top standard. If I really hate painting, thats a lot of time invested in something I dont enjoy or care one bit about. Not to mention the money for the paints.

Get some paper minis? If you just want the game, why purchase a component of another hobby? Why would you buy well over 250 dollars (probably twice that, cant be arsed counting) of miniatures just to not use them? I painted my blood angels one at a time, with about an hour total every week. Its not a big investment in time. I spend more time in the shower every week. You wouldnt assemble redcoat miniatures if you werent planning on painting them red? yet people play games with redcoat miniatures all the time. I have never seen anyone play with a "Grey Legion" of WW2 miniatures. What is it about PP and GW that make people buy miniatures, assemble them, cart them around, but not even bothering to dip them in motor oil for shading? Gw really has won hasnt it, plastic crack and all that.

I enjoy painting models from time to time. Not often, but every now and then I decide to not go out for a weekend and hammer out a bunch of models. Some of my paintjobs were done with the goal of 3 colors fast, some for humor, and some to look amazing. I find a lot of enjoyment in sitting down, listening to music or watching a few movies, and painting miniatures. However, one of my best gaming buddies hates it, and has never fielded a fully painted army in 6 years of playing. Often times they never make it past getting primed. I dont look down on him for this. I know a few people like this, they just never paint, dont enjoy it. Its not my problem, and I dont worry about it. So why do you worry about it? What about your brain makes you fret over people not painting their models and deciding to say feth it, throw them in a tub, and leave them grey?

DarknessEternal wrote:Why would I care if someone's models were painted or not?

I just want to play.

This.

GBL wrote:All of the people you mentioned are participating. The non painter in your example would be the person who turns up at the gym just to stare at ladies and doesnt use the equipment. They play the game, but they are not invested.

So, essentially, it is not the fact that someone plays the game that you have both agreed to play that invests them in this hobby, but the amount of time spent decorating their army that dictates their investment?

So, if I build a home, live in it, but don't decorate it, I'm not invested? I buy a car, but don't wash/wax it, I'm not invested?

Financial cost alone would dictate 'investment'.

Ive always been pretty steady on this topic. As someone who's had someone not play him because his army wasn't painted yet. Despite the fact I had started collecting not even 3 weeks earlier just to play games. I can say that I have no problem with people doing this. I get it that you took 1200 hrs to paint your army. I get exactly 4-6 hours a week for myself. If I don't cut into the already minuscule 6 hrs a day of sleep I'm lucky to get. Than paint 1-3 model most of the time. Also I would rather play against tolerant non TFG's. So I'm actually thankful when someone does this, as I'd probably not enjoy playing them anyways.

Now with that being said, I've gotten about 75% of my army painted. In my 7 months of the current cycle of playing/collecting. And it's clear to anyone I play against that I'm putting in effort on that front.


And to the people saying get paper models.... Are you serious? SERIOUSLY?!? Your telling me you'd be more ok with playing someone WITH PAPER FIGURES than someone who took the time to clip and assemble plastic/pewter mini's REALLY?!? That's gak load of gak....

Platuan4th wrote:

GBL wrote:I have never seen anyone play with a "Grey Legion" of WW2 miniatures.

I have, it's pretty common in Flames of War here.

Thats a shame, i really hope that that doesnt seep into places i play. 15mm dudes are very easy to paint. Especially the germans (who are about as popular as space marines) flat grey and then a wash. done. the scale is so small that bad painting isnt even noticeable on the battlefield scale.

Platuan4th wrote:

GBL wrote:I have never seen anyone play with a "Grey Legion" of WW2 miniatures.

I have, it's pretty common in Flames of War here.

Question - are most of the guys who play FoW where you are ex-or-current GW/PP players?

gunslingerpro wrote:

DarknessEternal wrote:Why would I care if someone's models were painted or not?

I just want to play.

This.

GBL wrote:All of the people you mentioned are participating. The non painter in your example would be the person who turns up at the gym just to stare at ladies and doesnt use the equipment. They play the game, but they are not invested.

So, essentially, it is not the fact that someone plays the game that you have both agreed to play that invests them in this hobby, but the amount of time spent decorating their army that dictates their investment?

So, if I build a home, live in it, but don't decorate it, I'm not invested? I buy a car, but don't wash/wax it, I'm not invested?

Financial cost alone would dictate 'investment'.

Actually lots of planned communities have minimum standards on housing for this reason, like all houses in a suburb i used to live near had to have a beach aesthetic, or they could veto your building plans. This is because the community wanted to prevent supposedly modern eyesores, and it raised the entire suburbs property values as a result. Nobody wants to be neighbours with an unmowed lawn and a tin shed.

Ive always been pretty steady on this topic. As someone who's had someone not play him because his army wasn't painted yet. Despite the fact I had started collecting not even 3 weeks earlier just to play games. I can say that I have no problem with people doing this. I get it that you took 1200 hrs to paint your army. I get exactly 4-6 hours a week for myself. If I don't cut into the already minuscule 6 hrs a day of sleep I'm lucky to get. Than paint 1-3 model most of the time. Also I would rather play against tolerant non TFG's. So I'm actually thankful when someone does this, as I'd probably not enjoy playing them anyways.

Ive never denied anyone a game due to my bias, but if i go to an LGS and i play someone who has obviously bought a netlist and not bothered assembling it properly or painting it, and then i come back weeks later and nothing has changed, it tells me something of the attitude of the group there and i stop going if i have somewhere with a good community where everyone is painting their stuff, no matter how slowly.

At the same time, i knew a Golden Demon winner who used to stalk new people at the local GW and give them a hard time based on the quality of their first paint jobs, and i dont abide that attitude either.

I enjoy painting models from time to time. Not often, but every now and then I decide to not go out for a weekend and hammer out a bunch of models. Some of my paintjobs were done with the goal of 3 colors fast, some for humor, and some to look amazing. I find a lot of enjoyment in sitting down, listening to music or watching a few movies, and painting miniatures. However, one of my best gaming buddies hates it, and has never fielded a fully painted army in 6 years of playing. Often times they never make it past getting primed. I dont look down on him for this. I know a few people like this, they just never paint, dont enjoy it. Its not my problem, and I dont worry about it. So why do you worry about it? What about your brain makes you fret over people not painting their models and deciding to say feth it, throw them in a tub, and leave them grey?

Why did they buy the model if they dont bother painting it? I dont fret over it, i just avoid it. If you mean to imply i am somehow broken because i dont share your opinion on a matter then i think this convo has gone too far. To turn it around, What about your friend makes him spend so much money just to play a game when there are free paper alternatives available. 3 colour tournaments wouldnt let him in anyways, so there doesnt seem to be a point in purchasing or assembling those miniatures without even attempting painting them. I really dont understand the mindset that makes people do things halfway and dropping them.

GBL wrote:[ To turn it around, What about your friend makes him spend so much money just to play a game when there are free paper alternatives available. .

There are no functional paper alternatives to 40K models that don't require as much (or more) work as painting the models would be.


Paper cut outs don't work in a game that uses 3D LOS.

GBL wrote:
Actually lots of planned communities have minimum standards on housing for this reason, like all houses in a suburb i used to live near had to have a beach aesthetic, or they could veto your building plans. This is because the community wanted to prevent supposedly modern eyesores, and it raised the entire suburbs property values as a result. Nobody wants to be neighbours with an unmowed lawn and a tin shed.

Your example is directly analogous to the tournament entry 3 color requirement. This requirement is not game wide, only tournament wide (if even then). That is not a matter of investment, but of protected community standards. The tournament and housing board being the communities in this example.

However, I again fail to see how that denotes a lack of investment. I know WM/H players who have been around since MKI, owned gaming stores, and played in hundreds of tournaments with warjacks that are still missing arms and are unpainted. He has more paints and mdoels than I could ever hope to amass. Is he not invested?

Why did they buy the model if they dont bother painting it? I dont fret over it, i just avoid it. If you mean to imply i am somehow broken because i dont share your opinion on a matter then i think this convo has gone too far. To turn it around, What about your friend makes him spend so much money just to play a game when there are free paper alternatives available. 3 colour tournaments wouldnt let him in anyways, so there doesnt seem to be a point in purchasing or assembling those miniatures without even attempting painting them. I really dont understand the mindset that makes people do things halfway and dropping them.

What if he only wishes to play at his FLGS? Does he remain uninvested?

It's not that I feel you are broken, I just wish to know where your ability to transfer your standards onto others gains it's credibility?

insaniak wrote:
Paper cut outs don't work in a game that uses 3D LOS.

Curses, foiled again

What if they just slotted into each other in a + shape from above. More or less would achieve the same as a 3D model. Though look worse.

insaniak wrote:

GBL wrote:[ To turn it around, What about your friend makes him spend so much money just to play a game when there are free paper alternatives available. .

There are no functional paper alternatives to 40K models that don't require as much (or more) work as painting the models would be.


Paper cut outs don't work in a game that uses 3D LOS.

Ive seen it work fine. Especially in a game that asks you to assume your conversions are at the same height as the miniature GW makes for the purposes of LOS.

However, I again fail to see how that denotes a lack of investment. I know WM/H players who have been around since MKI, owned gaming stores, and played in hundreds of tournaments with warjacks that are still missing arms and are unpainted. He has more paints and mdoels than I could ever hope to amass. Is he not invested?

I wasnt using the term investment properly, that much is true. I was refering to more of a participation/time investment rather than a financial one. My words fail me.

I just wish to know where your ability to transfer your standards onto others gains it's credibility?

I dont understand the question. Are you asking whether i believe people will take up my values because of a post on the internet? No, i dont believe a soap box post on the internet will change anything. Are you asking whether i have some kind of divine ability to make people do what i want them to? Kinda insulted actually if thats what your implying.

Hows this, i have the respect, not to bring an army of pink redcoats to a group of historical gamers who are very strict on historical accuracy. I have the respect to put in the minimum effort of assembling undercoating and attempting to paint an army before expecting someone at a game club or store to face me in a pick up game. What you do at home or between friends is nobodies business, and if you have already established that nobody cares at your club, then i weep for the hobby, but thats fine too. but i would hope that people show due respect to their unknown potential opponents, who may not like unpainted models by using a $17 spray can on an army they have just paid $300+ for. In fact the only real excuse not to, is ebay resale value. In fact, i find that once you get someone over that hurdle, and there is a good undercoat on their models, that the next steps of "lets paint green trimming" or similar becomes really easy.

Now i dont have any ability to "transfer these standards" and if i did i would probably start with more important standards like charitible giving. But thats my opinion on the issue.

infinite_array wrote:

Platuan4th wrote:

GBL wrote:I have never seen anyone play with a "Grey Legion" of WW2 miniatures.

I have, it's pretty common in Flames of War here.

Question - are most of the guys who play FoW where you are ex-or-current GW/PP players?

I played FoW long before I started playing 40k.

The only reason my Germans were painted was because of eBay.
I can't stand the codex paint jobs for my Tyranids, which is what makes it to eBay, so I have to go with my own.
That I like.

I just can't stand painting.

The most upsetting thing is people who don't paint their Infinity models. Every model in the line is gorgeous and deserves a paint job to match. Besides, you only need to field around eight models... that's a week's worth of painting, a month if you only paint a few hours a week.

Squidmanlolz wrote:The most upsetting thing is people who don't paint their Infinity models. Every model in the line is gorgeous and deserves a paint job to match. Besides, you only need to field around eight models... that's a week's worth of painting, a month if you only paint a few hours a week.

Aye, when I looked into getting into that game it was the idea of painting up a chinese force that really excited me.

Squidmanlolz wrote:The most upsetting thing is people who don't paint their Infinity models. Every model in the line is gorgeous and deserves a paint job to match. Besides, you only need to field around eight models... that's a week's worth of painting, a month if you only paint a few hours a week.

And I'll give you the same response.
I'll kick you in the junk once for each mini I paint, deal? We'll both get about the same level of enjoyment.
It doesn't matter how gorgeous the models are - in fact I'll likely never try the game now because of what you said.
My painting will never be that good - just like my skill at playing the cello won't ever be that good.
If my paint job ruins a "gorgeous model" that deserves a gorgeous paint job, I'll just refuse to sully them.

rigeld2 wrote:

Squidmanlolz wrote:The most upsetting thing is people who don't paint their Infinity models. Every model in the line is gorgeous and deserves a paint job to match. Besides, you only need to field around eight models... that's a week's worth of painting, a month if you only paint a few hours a week.

And I'll give you the same response.
I'll kick you in the junk once for each mini I paint, deal? We'll both get about the same level of enjoyment.
It doesn't matter how gorgeous the models are - in fact I'll likely never try the game now because of what you said.
My painting will never be that good - just like my skill at playing the cello won't ever be that good.
If my paint job ruins a "gorgeous model" that deserves a gorgeous paint job, I'll just refuse to sully them.

I'm starting to wonder if youre to busy obsessing over other peoples "junk" to find the time to pick up a brush. The whole thing is pretty lame.

rigeld2 wrote:

Squidmanlolz wrote:The most upsetting thing is people who don't paint their Infinity models. Every model in the line is gorgeous and deserves a paint job to match. Besides, you only need to field around eight models... that's a week's worth of painting, a month if you only paint a few hours a week.

And I'll give you the same response.
I'll kick you in the junk once for each mini I paint, deal? We'll both get about the same level of enjoyment.
It doesn't matter how gorgeous the models are - in fact I'll likely never try the game now because of what you said.
My painting will never be that good - just like my skill at playing the cello won't ever be that good.
If my paint job ruins a "gorgeous model" that deserves a gorgeous paint job, I'll just refuse to sully them.

A gorgeous mini deserves to be painted. The only shame is leaving it alone.

Also, not trying a game because someone on the internet likes it. Shallow much?

(in before someone quotes me saying "shallow much" in relation to one of my earlier posts. I do think there is a clear distinction, dont draw me out on a strawman based on a 2 word sentence fragment, there are better issues to explore)

If you don't think you can paint well, try. I painted all 3,000 points of my IG within a year whilst working a job and attending school full time. A few months after finishing them off, I realized the improvements I had made in painting, stripped the entire force and began again. No matter how bad you are, you will improve, you cannot ruin a model with paint. If you don't like a model's paint job, work on improving your painting skills, strip the model and start again.

To me painting does 2 things.
1.It adds definition to the model. People buy overly expensive models then leave em grey, what's the point you cannot see the "fantastic sculpt". well maybe you can, but you can't from the other side of the table.
2. It adds to the ease of gaming for your opponent. I'm sure you know what your mountain of grey is, I'm also pretty sure your opponent doesn't, especially from the other side of the table. If you play me and i don't have a scheme to tie the squads type to, i'm pretty sure you will get sick of me asking "what's that again".

Paint your minis or not. It is up to you. Just don't expect me to remember which squad is which without some kind of marker, colour symbol ect.

I think the most amusing post was the one saying "why spend $10 on paints , i want to spend my money on beer or girls",all the while failing to realise that $10 is nothing when it comes to the cost of the miniatures. Lots more beer there, hero

inquisitorlewis wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

Squidmanlolz wrote:The most upsetting thing is people who don't paint their Infinity models. Every model in the line is gorgeous and deserves a paint job to match. Besides, you only need to field around eight models... that's a week's worth of painting, a month if you only paint a few hours a week.

And I'll give you the same response.
I'll kick you in the junk once for each mini I paint, deal? We'll both get about the same level of enjoyment.
It doesn't matter how gorgeous the models are - in fact I'll likely never try the game now because of what you said.
My painting will never be that good - just like my skill at playing the cello won't ever be that good.
If my paint job ruins a "gorgeous model" that deserves a gorgeous paint job, I'll just refuse to sully them.

I'm starting to wonder if youre to busy obsessing over other peoples "junk" to find the time to pick up a brush. The whole thing is pretty lame.

So is the assumption that the only reason people don't paint is lying about time or lack of skill.

Squidmanlolz wrote:If you don't think you can paint well, try. I painted all 3,000 points of my IG within a year whilst working a job and attending school full time. A few months after finishing them off, I realized the improvements I had made in painting, stripped the entire force and began again. No matter how bad you are, you will improve, you cannot ruin a model with paint. If you don't like a model's paint job, work on improving your painting skills, strip the model and start again.

This is it right here. I have known many people (including myself) who started off really terrible painters, who have improved and now make great stuff. Try it.

GBL wrote:Ive seen it work fine. Especially in a game that asks you to assume your conversions are at the same height as the miniature GW makes for the purposes of LOS.

Which game is that?

but i would hope that people show due respect to their unknown potential opponents, who may not like unpainted models by using a $17 spray can on an army they have just paid $300+ for. .

So a, say, solid green army is preferable to a solid grey one...?

GBL wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

Squidmanlolz wrote:The most upsetting thing is people who don't paint their Infinity models. Every model in the line is gorgeous and deserves a paint job to match. Besides, you only need to field around eight models... that's a week's worth of painting, a month if you only paint a few hours a week.

And I'll give you the same response.
I'll kick you in the junk once for each mini I paint, deal? We'll both get about the same level of enjoyment.
It doesn't matter how gorgeous the models are - in fact I'll likely never try the game now because of what you said.
My painting will never be that good - just like my skill at playing the cello won't ever be that good.
If my paint job ruins a "gorgeous model" that deserves a gorgeous paint job, I'll just refuse to sully them.

A gorgeous mini deserves to be painted. The only shame is leaving it alone.

Also, not trying a game because someone on the internet likes it. Shallow much?

Absolutely not. I've been thinking about trying because a lot of people on the Internet like it. One of my hang ups was the awesome sculpts and the knowledge that I'd have to pay to get them painted. I've seen quite a few Infinity players talk about how awesome the sculpts are and how they must be painted to a high quality. That kind of link between modeling and gaming I don't want.

Squidmanlolz wrote:If you don't think you can paint well, try. I painted all 3,000 points of my IG within a year whilst working a job and attending school full time. A few months after finishing them off, I realized the improvements I had made in painting, stripped the entire force and began again. No matter how bad you are, you will improve, you cannot ruin a model with paint. If you don't like a model's paint job, work on improving your painting skills, strip the model and start again.

I. Don't. Like. Painting.
It's not about the level of skill I have - I'm comfortable with it. I can't paint well enough to do figures like most Infinity models justice, and I'll have to send my Sedition Wars models off to get painted (they got me with the Serenity crew) but I can paint to a tabletop standard.
I just dislike doing so. It's not fun. "Practicing" won't make it fun. I've tried.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

GBL wrote:

Squidmanlolz wrote:If you don't think you can paint well, try. I painted all 3,000 points of my IG within a year whilst working a job and attending school full time. A few months after finishing them off, I realized the improvements I had made in painting, stripped the entire force and began again. No matter how bad you are, you will improve, you cannot ruin a model with paint. If you don't like a model's paint job, work on improving your painting skills, strip the model and start again.

This is it right here. I have known many people (including myself) who started off really terrible painters, who have improved and now make great stuff. Try it.

Why are you assuming that the only roadblock is skill level?

rigeld2 wrote:

inquisitorlewis wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

Squidmanlolz wrote:The most upsetting thing is people who don't paint their Infinity models. Every model in the line is gorgeous and deserves a paint job to match. Besides, you only need to field around eight models... that's a week's worth of painting, a month if you only paint a few hours a week.

And I'll give you the same response.
I'll kick you in the junk once for each mini I paint, deal? We'll both get about the same level of enjoyment.
It doesn't matter how gorgeous the models are - in fact I'll likely never try the game now because of what you said.
My painting will never be that good - just like my skill at playing the cello won't ever be that good.
If my paint job ruins a "gorgeous model" that deserves a gorgeous paint job, I'll just refuse to sully them.

I'm starting to wonder if youre to busy obsessing over other peoples "junk" to find the time to pick up a brush. The whole thing is pretty lame.

So is the assumption that the only reason people don't paint is lying about time or lack of skill.

I make no assumptions. To each his own. If you don't want to paint minis then don't, but don't cry when an "elitist" won't play a game with you either. My comment was based on your obsession over kicking people in their coin purse. There's really no comparison between the 2. I bought a Chaos Warhound a few years ago. It turned out to be a much larger project than I could handle at the time. I still plugged away at it every single weekend for 6 months. Eventually it made it's way to the bottom of my project list and didn't resurface until I put it up on ebay. As much as that sucked, I would paint 10 of the things before I allowed somebody to kick me in the nuts. It's a lame statement and really makes no sense covering this topic.

inquisitorlewis wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

inquisitorlewis wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

Squidmanlolz wrote:The most upsetting thing is people who don't paint their Infinity models. Every model in the line is gorgeous and deserves a paint job to match. Besides, you only need to field around eight models... that's a week's worth of painting, a month if you only paint a few hours a week.

And I'll give you the same response.
I'll kick you in the junk once for each mini I paint, deal? We'll both get about the same level of enjoyment.
It doesn't matter how gorgeous the models are - in fact I'll likely never try the game now because of what you said.
My painting will never be that good - just like my skill at playing the cello won't ever be that good.
If my paint job ruins a "gorgeous model" that deserves a gorgeous paint job, I'll just refuse to sully them.

I'm starting to wonder if youre to busy obsessing over other peoples "junk" to find the time to pick up a brush. The whole thing is pretty lame.

So is the assumption that the only reason people don't paint is lying about time or lack of skill.

I make no assumptions. To each his own. If you don't want to paint minis then don't, but don't cry when an "elitist" won't play a game with you either. My comment was based on your obsession over kicking people in their coin purse. There's really no comparison between the 2. I bought a Chaos Warhound a few years ago. It turned out to be a much larger project than I could handle at the time. I still plugged away at it every single weekend for 6 months. Eventually it made it's way to the bottom of my project list and didn't resurface until I put it up on ebay. As much as that sucked, I would paint 10 of the things before I allowed somebody to kick me in the nuts. It's a lame statement and really makes no sense covering this topic.

It does make sense. It conveys my level of distaste for the activity of painting in a way that any male can understand.
I'm absolutely serious when I describe dislike in that fashion.
I also dislike when I say "I don't like painting." and people keep harping on practice makes perfect, you'll get better, etc.

Bullockist wrote:

I think the most amusing post was the one saying "why spend $10 on paints , i want to spend my money on beer or girls",all the while failing to realise that $10 is nothing when it comes to the cost of the miniatures. Lots more beer there, hero

$10 is a fair amount compared to what I pay for my models actually. I have spent probably $400 between 4k of grey knights, 3k of blood angels, and 3k of space wolves over the last 2 years. And no, while that probably wasnt the best example, to somebody who hates painting, that $10 to paint a couple squads is money completely wasted. While it might only be a 6 pack or a theater ticket, thats money not wasted. I can use that $10 for a great deal of cheap enjoyable things, as opposed to buying paints I dont care about for an activity I find utterly boring and stupid.

rigeld2 wrote:

inquisitorlewis wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

inquisitorlewis wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

Squidmanlolz wrote:The most upsetting thing is people who don't paint their Infinity models. Every model in the line is gorgeous and deserves a paint job to match. Besides, you only need to field around eight models... that's a week's worth of painting, a month if you only paint a few hours a week.

And I'll give you the same response.
I'll kick you in the junk once for each mini I paint, deal? We'll both get about the same level of enjoyment.
It doesn't matter how gorgeous the models are - in fact I'll likely never try the game now because of what you said.
My painting will never be that good - just like my skill at playing the cello won't ever be that good.
If my paint job ruins a "gorgeous model" that deserves a gorgeous paint job, I'll just refuse to sully them.

I'm starting to wonder if youre to busy obsessing over other peoples "junk" to find the time to pick up a brush. The whole thing is pretty lame.

So is the assumption that the only reason people don't paint is lying about time or lack of skill.

I make no assumptions. To each his own. If you don't want to paint minis then don't, but don't cry when an "elitist" won't play a game with you either. My comment was based on your obsession over kicking people in their coin purse. There's really no comparison between the 2. I bought a Chaos Warhound a few years ago. It turned out to be a much larger project than I could handle at the time. I still plugged away at it every single weekend for 6 months. Eventually it made it's way to the bottom of my project list and didn't resurface until I put it up on ebay. As much as that sucked, I would paint 10 of the things before I allowed somebody to kick me in the nuts. It's a lame statement and really makes no sense covering this topic.

It does make sense. It conveys my level of distaste for the activity of painting in a way that any male can understand.
I'm absolutely serious when I describe dislike in that fashion.
I also dislike when I say "I don't like painting." and people keep harping on practice makes perfect, you'll get better, etc.

So, if I painted your miniatures for you, would I get the chance to kick you in the nads for each mini done? Seems like a fair trade, according to you.

The thing that annoys me when people don't paint their models, is that they THEN claim that models are other types of troops etc, when you cannot tell from the mountain of plastic what is what.

Painting up squads means you can diffentiate what is what ingame relatively easily, without having to ask for army lists or ask the guy what is what.

its not *upsetting* per se, but just makes it easier for both parties involved.

Doctadeth wrote:The thing that annoys me when people don't paint their models, is that they THEN claim that models are other types of troops etc, when you cannot tell from the mountain of plastic what is what.

Painting up squads means you can diffentiate what is what ingame relatively easily, without having to ask for army lists or ask the guy what is what.

its not *upsetting* per se, but just makes it easier for both parties involved.

I never understood this. Can you elaborate?

insaniak wrote:

GBL wrote:Ive seen it work fine. Especially in a game that asks you to assume your conversions are at the same height as the miniature GW makes for the purposes of LOS.

Which game is that?

Isnt that how 40k 5th edition got around those people converting all their minis into prone positions?

Tomorrows war kind of blasted me off the 40k map, i havent touched it in ages.

insaniak wrote:

but i would hope that people show due respect to their unknown potential opponents, who may not like unpainted models by using a $17 spray can on an army they have just paid $300+ for. .

So a, say, solid green army is preferable to a solid grey one...?

Firstly, yes. A matt finish makes it much easier to discern detail at range. It becomes crisper.

But also it shows an attempt. and after that first hurdle is crossed, it is very simple to slowly add details.

Absolutely not. I've been thinking about trying because a lot of people on the Internet like it. One of my hang ups was the awesome sculpts and the knowledge that I'd have to pay to get them painted. I've seen quite a few Infinity players talk about how awesome the sculpts are and how they must be painted to a high quality. That kind of link between modeling and gaming I don't want.

This is interesting. (and i think the only way to stop this cyclical argument)

Why play any tabletop game with miniatures involved, if you dont like modelling and painting?

For myself i can see only a few motives for involving ones self in games like 40k.
1. Collecting and Displaying the miniatures which you also play with.
2. Converting and painting miniatures which you also play with.

But if you dont like to either buy minis with paint jobs or paint them yourself, what is the motive for getting into 40k rather than say Starcraft or Total War? Or Board games and Wargames like battletech where minis are required only for clarification in tournaments. and the rulebook specifically states you can use bottle caps or whatever? There are also printable games and lego game where the only investment is a laser printer or a box of reusable legos?

I am not trying to be insulting, i am genuinely curious as to what 40k or fantasy offers compared to other alternatives, that would make you overlook such a large component. This is seriously alien to me, i have been playing for close on 12 years now and i have never known anyone who didnt at least want to paint their minis, and i have only rarely played anyone with bare plastic/metal (and those people were generally snail painters on a ten year crusade to paint their first armies).

infinite_array wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

inquisitorlewis wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

inquisitorlewis wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

Squidmanlolz wrote:The most upsetting thing is people who don't paint their Infinity models. Every model in the line is gorgeous and deserves a paint job to match. Besides, you only need to field around eight models... that's a week's worth of painting, a month if you only paint a few hours a week.

And I'll give you the same response.
I'll kick you in the junk once for each mini I paint, deal? We'll both get about the same level of enjoyment.
It doesn't matter how gorgeous the models are - in fact I'll likely never try the game now because of what you said.
My painting will never be that good - just like my skill at playing the cello won't ever be that good.
If my paint job ruins a "gorgeous model" that deserves a gorgeous paint job, I'll just refuse to sully them.

I'm starting to wonder if youre to busy obsessing over other peoples "junk" to find the time to pick up a brush. The whole thing is pretty lame.

So is the assumption that the only reason people don't paint is lying about time or lack of skill.

I make no assumptions. To each his own. If you don't want to paint minis then don't, but don't cry when an "elitist" won't play a game with you either. My comment was based on your obsession over kicking people in their coin purse. There's really no comparison between the 2. I bought a Chaos Warhound a few years ago. It turned out to be a much larger project than I could handle at the time. I still plugged away at it every single weekend for 6 months. Eventually it made it's way to the bottom of my project list and didn't resurface until I put it up on ebay. As much as that sucked, I would paint 10 of the things before I allowed somebody to kick me in the nuts. It's a lame statement and really makes no sense covering this topic.

It does make sense. It conveys my level of distaste for the activity of painting in a way that any male can understand.
I'm absolutely serious when I describe dislike in that fashion.
I also dislike when I say "I don't like painting." and people keep harping on practice makes perfect, you'll get better, etc.

So, if I painted your miniatures for you, would I get the chance to kick you in the nads for each mini done? Seems like a fair trade, according to you.

Here, here.

The way I took the statement you can kick him once per mini.

inquisitorlewis wrote:
Here, here.

The way I took the statement you can kick him once per mini.

And apparently he plays nids. Hell, all I'd need is an airbrush, some washes, and a good set of cleats!

GBL wrote:
I have the respect to put in the minimum effort of assembling undercoating and attempting to paint an army before expecting someone at a game club or store to face me in a pick up game.

Now i dont have any ability to "transfer these standards" and if i did i would probably start with more important standards like charitible giving. But thats my opinion on the issue.

Here is where I find your transfer of standards. You assume that to give respect to your opponent you must 'attempt to paint' your miniatures.

How does you painting your miniatures have any bearing on the amount of respect given to an opponent?

This 'respect' you speak of is a standard that you (and some others) have come up with that is in no way reflected by any rule or body outside of tournaments (as covered in my previous post).

My question that you can't understand is why do you feel it neccessary to insist that others perform to your standards in decorating their miniatures? Is an assembled army played by a person who knows the rules and background and enjoys the game not enough? Or more succinctly, why are your standards of a painting minimum of more value than anyone with an assembly minimum?

EDIT

GBL wrote: But if you dont like to either buy minis with paint jobs or paint them yourself, what is the motive for getting into 40k rather than say Starcraft or Total War? Or Board games and Wargames like battletech where minis are required only for clarification in tournaments. and the rulebook specifically states you can use bottle caps or whatever? There are also printable games and lego game where the only investment is a laser printer or a box of reusable legos?

Um, because they like the fluff/rules/models/meta/conventions/thematics/crowd/hobby?

Eidolon wrote:

Doctadeth wrote:The thing that annoys me when people don't paint their models, is that they THEN claim that models are other types of troops etc, when you cannot tell from the mountain of plastic what is what.

Painting up squads means you can diffentiate what is what ingame relatively easily, without having to ask for army lists or ask the guy what is what.

its not *upsetting* per se, but just makes it easier for both parties involved.

I never understood this. Can you elaborate?

I can.

I know a nid player and a sisters of battle player.

The sisters player had not painted more than a couple of dudes.

The nid player would complain, because he couldnt tell the difference between the models. No way to differentiate between celestians and regulars, and the sisters player was proxying different special weapons, and when he was told that "the storm bolter is a flamer" he wouldnt be able to tell which of the sisters had the storm bolter. It was a pretty big deal, and he believes it lost him a lot of games.

So i can understand where the parent poster was coming from

hotsauceman1 wrote:Yeah, But when you put that nice, awesome posed model on the table on painted there is no detail, it looks indistinguishable from other models.

Different people have different personalities, hence different preferences.

There was a poll by yakface, on why people got into warhammer.

painting wasnt the top choice.

There were

Gaming
Collecting
Socializing
Modelling

and among others.