I'm wondering what individual units are suddenly becoming very valuable.

Eldar snipers: The ap1 rule means that anytime you roll a 6, the shot is ap1 AND you get allocate the wound to any model. Goodbye priests, powerfist sergeants etc.

Death Company: If rage goes from being running towards the closest target to getting an extra attack on the charge, they (and their dreads) might be a lot more viable. Gives you 5 attacks on the charge (2 base, 1 for weapons and 2 on the charge) or an I10 charge.

What other units look like they're getting big buffs?

Stoffer wrote:I'm wondering what individual units are suddenly becoming very valuable.

Eldar snipers: The ap1 rule means that anytime you roll a 6, the shot is ap1 AND you get allocate the wound to any model. Goodbye priests, powerfist sergeants etc.

Death Company: If rage goes from being running towards the closest target to getting an extra attack on the charge, they (and their dreads) might be a lot more viable. Gives you 5 attacks on the charge (2 base, 1 for weapons and 2 on the charge) or an I10 charge.

What other units look like they're getting big buffs?

MANZ! They eat Grey Knight Terminators now. Although SS/TH Terminators would give them a good fight. Nobz # of attacks and that they go at the same time means that both squads are probably going to lose quite a bit. Nobz will be mostly gone, but Termis will lose a few.

Tactical terminators, manz, rangers, scout snipers, tellion, vindicare (is better now), sanguinary guard, deathmarks, many many more. Very few units didn't get better

Well if the glancing and hull points thing is correct then necron warriors just become even more disgusting as a 6 is a glance with a guass blaster. Unit of 10 is highly likely to remove 3 hull points off the enemy in one turn

A unit of 10 Warriors rapid firing is 20 shots, of which approx 13.33 will hit. This leaves 2.22 glancing hits form 10 warriors. Still good, but not vehicle eating.

It is a drastic improvement, dont get me wrong... but let's not get delusional with our math. We'll need like 30 shots to do 3 hull points. Still easily achievable.

Suddenly awesome wargear = Voltaic Staff.... 12" but Assault 4 Haywire... good-bye land raider. (potentially)

Haywire or Heatlance scourges might actually kill something...

Tankbustas should eb a bit more lethal

EMP grenade toting units are now awesome

Not a huge buff but if the rumors are true the GK Dreadknight got a decent buff in CC, considering it will get its 2+ save most of the time and potentially can challenge other characters.

Wraithguard. Glancing on 3-4, Pen's on 5-6's with AP2. Woot!

mmm... wraithguard... how could i forget!?

Gangrel767 touched on the Voltaic staff, but I figured I'd show just how awesome they are.

2 Stormteks (Cryptek with Harbinger of the Storm upgrade)

50 points that will, with statisticly average rolls, wreck any vehicle in the game that they can get within 12" of (cover saves not withstanding) in a single round of shooting. You can attach them to many units to give them some ablative wounds and extra gauss support. They also add considerably to the weight of the unit's anti-infantry firepower with 8 s5ap- shots. For an extra 10 points apiece (taken from two seperate royal courts) you can give them lightning fields which will cause 1d6 s8ap5 per lightning field to any unit that assaults their unit.

Zid wrote:Tactical terminators, manz, rangers, scout snipers, tellion, vindicare (is better now), sanguinary guard, deathmarks, many many more. Very few units didn't get better

Two questions: Why Sanguinary Guard? Secondly, what's manz short for?

On the getting better front, I'd say sanguinary priests and landraiders came out weaker? FnP/FC got a pretty big whack and landraiders can be stunned to death.

MANZ = Mega-Armored Nobz. They have 2+ armor, as do Sanguinary guard, I believe.

Lascannons. @#$%ing lascannons.

Vanilla Marine Honor Guard, as well. 2+ saves, 5++ from power weapons (close combat only, though, right?), able to take a few relic blades for +2 S attacks and the champ can take a TH. Chapter Banner gives them +1 A and rerollable Morale tests. The champ acts kind of like an IC declaring a challenge, too.

Still pricey, but I think they closed the gap with Assault Termies a bit.

Tau in general. Nothing like having fire warriors that can fall back and fire at max distance.

Gangrel767 wrote:A unit of 10 Warriors rapid firing is 20 shots, of which approx 13.33 will hit. This leaves 2.22 glancing hits form 10 warriors. Still good, but not vehicle eating.

It is a drastic improvement, dont get me wrong... but let's not get delusional with our math. We'll need like 30 shots to do 3 hull points. Still easily achievable.

Good when I have 80.

Triarch Praetorians are another. I10 is a really boost, I also run Zahndrekh for Hit and Run. Ju8st about all Jump Infantry are slightly better.

Thousand Sons, Overwatch with AP3 bolters? Who cares if its BS1? Plus all the Sorcerers might now be worth it whilst Ahriman is beast because he keeps all his powers and gets and additional 3.

BA Libby Dreads, 2 new powers could boost them, or keep Wings and be I10 for a charge. Psychic Hoods will be really handy now.

Chaos Daemon Khorne armies with lots of Blessings from the Blood God, 2+* against all Psychic Powers.

Guard get 4 of the 5 new Psychic sections. So Primaris Psykers could be a better HQ choice since they get 2.

Stoffer wrote:Eldar snipers: The ap1 rule means that anytime you roll a 6, the shot is ap1 AND you get allocate the wound to any model. Goodbye priests, powerfist sergeants etc.

It gets better:

Pathfinders, any roll to hit of 6 is AP1 and you assign.

Any roll to hit of 5 is also AP1 and any roll to wound of 6 is AP2.

Nasty.

5 Crypteks - 175 Points
3 StormTeks - Voltaic Staff
ChronoTek - Chronometron
VeilTek - Veil of Darkness

Step 1 - Deep Strike within 12" (easily enough... small footprint... reroll 1D6)
Step 2 - Roll 12 Shots all Haywire (one reroll again)
Step 3 - Watch your opponent cry

This is obviously not the most fine tuned unit out there, but just some early brainstorming....

If the report that "infiltrate" units can bring ICs now, Mandrakes just became WWP droppers supreme.

Sang Guard and DC, two units I had hoped would become awesome due to how fun they can be to paint and how I feel they should be prominent in the BA codex, given they were made for it.

Guardians. If half the stuff I've heard about what's going on with squad leaders in 6th is true, small Guardian units with Warlocks are going to become quite powerful.

I may catch some gak for this one, but the LR Punisher seems to be less bad for dealing with AV11-12 an/or fliers.

Drazhar master of blades.
2+ save on a beaststick with EW who can move out of btb with the powerfist till the squad is dead.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Haemoculus with hex rifles...

ok bear with me.
Move and shoot sniper rifle that can pick targets and causes ID.
You take one with with some allied pathfinders. He gains their stealth while the pathfinders gain nightfighting.


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The baron and beasts, ok I know lots of people took them beforehand but now they can move and assault together giving the beasts assault grenades. Get double stealth if the enemy is within 8" from the defensive grenades.

Flamers of Tzeentch.
Charge me, bro.
I dare you.
Full squad does, on average, 24 hits. That's 12 dead MEQ. Hell I'd be surprised if you were still in charge range after that!

Guardian jetbikes. 5++ jink cover on turns they shoot and a 48" turbo boost. The turbo boost is great for getting them behind enemy vehicles where their 6s to glance are as good as gauss versus av10 rear armor. Most importantly they are a scoring unit that can turbo boost 48". Nuff said.

DW termies

Ravenwing bikes and landspeeders (master in LS av14 lol)

Haven't really been following the "supposed" rules, but how are the Tau looking? From the sounds of it they may have a few tricks left up their sleeve to stay semi-tough...I think?

AnomanderRake wrote:Guardians. If half the stuff I've heard about what's going on with squad leaders in 6th is true, small Guardian units with Warlocks are going to become quite powerful.

Can you elaborate a bit more? I don't really play Eldar, so I don't really see it.

Glad I have snipers in my IG army, I don't know the rumors but I keep hearing snipers, which I like because snipers have always been underpowered for a really long time.

Shadelkan wrote:Tau in general. Nothing like having fire warriors that can fall back and fire at max distance.

Yup, the thought of fielding 72 Fire Warriors than can shoot 72 shots at 30" whilst still moving and 144 shots at 15" while still moving is sexy. I've always loved the models, maybe now I can actually use them.

After reading some of these rumored rules changes, I'm looking forward to 6th more than ever.
It looks as though most armies are going to be able to take advantage of the new rules in some way.
It also looks like people are going to start using units that many have been avoiding in 5th.
Heck, I may even add a warp head or two to my ork army. Might be fun.
With my chaos, I will finally get to use my thousand sons again!

Are people forgetting that Stormravens are now getting the flier rules? Don't know if they'll get Aerial Assault and Super Sonic but that really makes them better!

I might actually use Stormboyz again. 12+d6" move, 2d6" charge. A unit of 20 of them will get (presumably) 20 attacks at I 10. If they bring Zag with them he gets his power klaw at I3.

The Masque: use her 3 pavanes to rearrange enemy units so the juicy targets are right up front and then use Tzeentch Heralds or soulgrinders to shove a bolt of Tzeentch in their face. Hell, use Obliterators to do it via allies. Heralds of Slannesh in general - take 2 as CSM allies and now 2 of your Marine units have a miniature lash of submission hidden inside.

Joey wrote:Flamers of Tzeentch.
Charge me, bro.
I dare you.
Full squad does, on average, 24 hits. That's 12 dead MEQ. Hell I'd be surprised if you were still in charge range after that!

Totally didnt think about flamers. Possibly my favourite tzeentch unit just got REALLY awesome.

LOLS i so know what i am doing with my CSM ... Fate Weaver + Flamers lols

Xeriapt wrote:

Joey wrote:Flamers of Tzeentch.
Charge me, bro.
I dare you.
Full squad does, on average, 24 hits. That's 12 dead MEQ. Hell I'd be surprised if you were still in charge range after that!

Totally didnt think about flamers. Possibly my favourite tzeentch unit just got REALLY awesome.

Yeah.....but that's a 420 point unit.

Tau benefiting from nearly everything this addition.

Railguns becoming even more likely to wreck your mechanized gak,
Tau Fire Warriors backpedaling and shooting into you with 15'' Rapid Fire,
Hammerheads being able to move 12 and fire railguns and smart missile systems,

Just to name a few...

My favorite however is that the Krootox may actually become useful. 24'' Rapid Fire lol.

Hm, thinking about it even though the rumors are chaos is getting an update this year, i doubt it. 1k sons. enhanced marines, melta and plasma chosen, chaos termies, obliterators, noise marines with sonic weapons. thats all i can think of.

Well considering Hammerheads are always the weaker choice in the HS slot compared to XV88's.. It wont break the mold just for a single S10 Shot.

I would rather still field 2 XV88s with target lock.

The krootox is a bonus but realistically it wasnt fielded because it couldnt rapid fire @ 24" it was left out for other reasons.

Also everyone raving about 72 Firewarriors.. You will never field them unless you go out of your way too. FW are still weak ass and crumble to a slight breeze. Realistically you might field 36 in a game. And most likely still in reserve in a fish. Perhaps 1 12 man squad in terrain to start.

Tau are better than before... What EVERYONE is forgetting is that EVERYONE else is getting better too! = Tau still suck.

I love my Tau dont get me wrong they are my PRIMARY 40k army... but lets be real here... without a new dex we are still overpaying for units by 20-40% and that i whats killing tau.

The only nice thing we get is a new FOC at 2k.... More suits! More XV88's.... But then everyone else does too AGAIN.

How about your rapid fire adjustment to plasma rifles? I think that is pretty nice

I think my 60 Assault Marines w/ Jump Pack Sanguinary Priests and Librarian army just got even more awesome!

Are Stormtroopers buffed in any way?

King Pariah wrote:How about your rapid fire adjustment to plasma rifles? I think that is pretty nice

What adjustments? From a battlesuits point of view plasma works 100% the same as 5th. Technically it’s a nerf to battlesuits as they gain nothing but all the other army’s gain the battlesuits bonuses of moving and firing which was one of the main points of battlesuits.

I don't expect it to be used widely, but Wracks with 2 liquifier guns should give a moments pause to anone charging them, even termies.

Bobthehero wrote:Are Stormtroopers buffed in any way?

I think they get nerfed actually,
beacuse double tap is half of the weapons range in 6th as opposed to 12'' in 5th, hotshot lasguns now only double tap at 9''

The TFC got better aswell. With the most probable shift towards infantryhammer the 4 blasts will do more damage and the change from "AV10 a glance" kills into T7 2W makes it alot more durable.

How is the TFC T7 2W - are all artillery going to be T7 with X wounds?

Phototoxin wrote:How is the TFC T7 2W - are all artillery going to be T7 with X wounds?

According to the reddit guy with the rulebook all artillery will be T7 W2.

Somebody mentioned this already but if IC's can be attached to infiltrators Mandrakes got ALOT better (not too mention that they can now torrent down vehicles in assault). Mandrakes starting with a pain token are very very good.

SabrX wrote:I think my 60 Assault Marines w/ Jump Pack Sanguinary Priests and Librarian army just got even more awesome!

I'm currently playing a DoA list and I feel exactly the opposite. FNP/FC nerf makes priests an extremely expensive upgrade, coupled with the fact that my assault marines have had their power weapons nerfed, their CC alpha taken away and their save is reduce from 3+/4+ to 3+/5+.

If anything, DC now look like a much more attractive choice for the DoA lists.

Mogal Kamir with 9 rough riders.
That could be 32+ S6 I5 AP3 CC attacks once per game on fearless cavalry. Guard just got itself a nice counter attack CC unit.

Stoffer wrote:

SabrX wrote:I think my 60 Assault Marines w/ Jump Pack Sanguinary Priests and Librarian army just got even more awesome!

I'm currently playing a DoA list and I feel exactly the opposite. FNP/FC nerf makes priests an extremely expensive upgrade, coupled with the fact that my assault marines have had their power weapons nerfed, their CC alpha taken away and their save is reduce from 3+/4+ to 3+/5+.

If anything, DC now look like a much more attractive choice for the DoA lists.

5+ fnp works against ap1/2, and assault marines get the free hits at i10. The big problem i see for pure doa is the lack of skyfire, but i see hybrid lists being better.

Gangrel767 wrote:A unit of 10 Warriors rapid firing is 20 shots, of which approx 13.33 will hit. This leaves 2.22 glancing hits form 10 warriors. Still good, but not vehicle eating.

It is a drastic improvement, dont get me wrong... but let's not get delusional with our math. We'll need like 30 shots to do 3 hull points. Still easily achievable.

Suddenly awesome wargear = Voltaic Staff.... 12" but Assault 4 Haywire... good-bye land raider. (potentially)

5-10 Warriors, Veil, Haywire

x2

= 2 dead vehicles every turn.

All flyers?

SabrX wrote:I think my 60 Assault Marines w/ Jump Pack Sanguinary Priests and Librarian army just got even more awesome!

Probably not. You lose your bonus attack when multiassaulting, FNP is a 5+, you don't get a point of Initiative for Furious Charge, you cant use No Retreat to murder weak units and crush stronger ones with combat resolution, and flyers can't be assaulted. You also can't Deep Strike the entire army. Taking casualties from the front will mean you have an increased chances of shooting yourself out of assault range, with Overwatch fire potentially widening the gap even further.

Really, the only buffs I see are the ease of wrecking vehicles with glances, the ease of hitting moving vehicles, and the free Impact hits. I do love the idea that I can basically ram vehicles to death with Assault Marines, though. Wish you could consolidate into the disembarked survivors after killing a vehicle in combat, though.

I actually thing stormtroopers got some buffs, too. An overall reduction to cover makes their AP3 guns a bit more viable, and new wound allocation (closest to furthest) means pinpoint deepstriking stormtroopers can drop and assassinate key squad members, and even have a slight chance of being outside of assault range (or in "low probability assault range") when they're done firing.

schadenfreude wrote:

Stoffer wrote:

SabrX wrote:I think my 60 Assault Marines w/ Jump Pack Sanguinary Priests and Librarian army just got even more awesome!

I'm currently playing a DoA list and I feel exactly the opposite. FNP/FC nerf makes priests an extremely expensive upgrade, coupled with the fact that my assault marines have had their power weapons nerfed, their CC alpha taken away and their save is reduce from 3+/4+ to 3+/5+.

If anything, DC now look like a much more attractive choice for the DoA lists.

5+ fnp works against ap1/2, and assault marines get the free hits at i10. The big problem i see for pure doa is the lack of skyfire, but i see hybrid lists being better.

I'm not worried about ap1/2. I can deal with that today through cover and other mechanics. What I'm worried about is someone putting 10 wounds on me and actually being able to hurt me. The free hits are only good if you give up all your other bonuses and seeing as assault marines aren't very good in close combat I'd be hesitant to even make use of it. I'd win close combat because I struck first and whatever struck back wouldn't kill a lot of stuff due to armor/FnP. That combo is gone now and that worries me a great deal.

DaddyWarcrimes wrote:

SabrX wrote:I think my 60 Assault Marines w/ Jump Pack Sanguinary Priests and Librarian army just got even more awesome!

Probably not. You lose your bonus attack when multiassaulting, FNP is a 5+, you don't get a point of Initiative for Furious Charge, you cant use No Retreat to murder weak units and crush stronger ones with combat resolution, and flyers can't be assaulted. You also can't Deep Strike the entire army. Taking casualties from the front will mean you have an increased chances of shooting yourself out of assault range, with Overwatch fire potentially widening the gap even further.

Really, the only buffs I see are the ease of wrecking vehicles with glances, the ease of hitting moving vehicles, and the free Impact hits. I do love the idea that I can basically ram vehicles to death with Assault Marines, though. Wish you could consolidate into the disembarked survivors after killing a vehicle in combat, though.

I pretty much agree with this post.

Any unit with Pavane or Lash of SUbmission.

You don't like a particular person in a squad? Rearrange the squad so he is now the closest model and start shooting at that squad.

On a secondary note, and I am not sure how effective this would be, you could try to arrange a squad you were going to charge to minimize their overwatch fire (string unit out to get out of rapid fire range) . But, I really don't see this working to well.

Lastly, until FAQ'd, with allies, you could lash someone and then pavane them (or vice versa). Interesting combinations from the warp.

Milisim wrote:
Tau are better than before... What EVERYONE is forgetting is that EVERYONE else is getting better too! = Tau still suck.

DE and Eldar are much worse.
GK are worse
BA are awesome now.
not everyone is getting better. DE went from competitive to nearly unplayable. Eldar went from one mechout possibility to nothing.

Exergy wrote:

Milisim wrote:
Tau are better than before... What EVERYONE is forgetting is that EVERYONE else is getting better too! = Tau still suck.

DE and Eldar are much worse.
GK are worse
BA are awesome now.
not everyone is getting better. DE went from competitive to nearly unplayable. Eldar went from one mechout possibility to nothing.

Little premature for that... Feel free to panic based on rumors and glimpses of the book without FAQs though

Long Fangs became even more deadly if the rumours are correct. Heavy Weapons can still fire at BS1 if they move? No longer are they completely stationary. With Missile Launchers glancing AV12 on a 4+ is very sweet.

Unfortunately with Hull Points my dual Dreadnought list that I want to run is probably DoA.

StoneRaizer wrote:Long Fangs became even more deadly if the rumours are correct. Heavy Weapons can still fire at BS1 if they move? No longer are they completely stationary. With Missile Launchers glancing AV12 on a 4+ is very sweet.

Unfortunately with Hull Points my dual Dreadnought list that I want to run is probably DoA.

Meh, Snap Fire doesn't really help Long Fangs that much. 5 MLs means maybe one hit on snap fire. That's not game breaking and I still wouldn't want to move them unless it was dire.

actually MLs got categorically worse against vehicles.

Also toward the DE got worse comment. I totally disagree.

With the strong possability of night fight in every game, Dark eldar with their night vision can really exploit that. Also the concept of taking a farseer with doom is absolutely devestating with all the poison shot. Not to mention their flier are probaably the best out of all of them, beasts just became insanely good, DE are one of the few armies that can deal with high AV at range, hellions are really good a tank hunting now that they can glance them to death and hit on a 3+, skimmers moving fast can only be hit on a 6+, reavers can now move 48", andwith the new rules harlies get good again.

Exergy wrote:

Milisim wrote:
Tau are better than before... What EVERYONE is forgetting is that EVERYONE else is getting better too! = Tau still suck.

DE and Eldar are much worse.
GK are worse
BA are awesome now.
not everyone is getting better. DE went from competitive to nearly unplayable. Eldar went from one mechout possibility to nothing.

Again, I'm not sure how you figure BA are awesome now. Vehicle lists got nerfed across the board, FnP and higher initiative which was the staple for DoA got nerfed. Which BA list is it exactly that's much better today?

Stoffer wrote:

Exergy wrote:

Milisim wrote:
Tau are better than before... What EVERYONE is forgetting is that EVERYONE else is getting better too! = Tau still suck.

DE and Eldar are much worse.
GK are worse
BA are awesome now.
not everyone is getting better. DE went from competitive to nearly unplayable. Eldar went from one mechout possibility to nothing.

Again, I'm not sure how you figure BA are awesome now. Vehicle lists got nerfed across the board, FnP and higher initiative which was the staple for DoA got nerfed. Which BA list is it exactly that's much better today?

have you looked at death company with their 5 attacks on the charge and no downside? give them jump packs and they will roll anything in the game.
regular assault marines are great too.
vanguard vets are awesome as well.
so you dont get +1 inititive, instead you get inititive 10. I call that a win.


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deFl0 wrote:
Also toward the DE got worse comment. I totally disagree.

With the strong possability of night fight in every game, Dark eldar with their night vision can really exploit that. Also the concept of taking a farseer with doom is absolutely devestating with all the poison shot. Not to mention their flier are probaably the best out of all of them, beasts just became insanely good, DE are one of the few armies that can deal with high AV at range, hellions are really good a tank hunting now that they can glance them to death and hit on a 3+, skimmers moving fast can only be hit on a 6+, reavers can now move 48", andwith the new rules harlies get good again.

those are nice, but now:
flickerfields are redundant
open topped vehicles are deadly
we cant assualt very far out of our transports
fleet got nerfed
we have no answer to 2+ saves in combat
we still have no answer to dreads in combat, less in fact now that talos dont get 2d6 for armor pen
hellions are still overcosted
snap fire hurts wyches
FNP nerf hurts our entire army
havent read it but you cant assault the turn you arrive from reserve, so wwp lists are gimped

night fighting being good really depends on if stealth stacks. it could be ok, with a good FAQ it could be good, but I doubt it.

Exergy wrote:

Stoffer wrote:

Exergy wrote:

Milisim wrote:
Tau are better than before... What EVERYONE is forgetting is that EVERYONE else is getting better too! = Tau still suck.

DE and Eldar are much worse.
GK are worse
BA are awesome now.
not everyone is getting better. DE went from competitive to nearly unplayable. Eldar went from one mechout possibility to nothing.

Again, I'm not sure how you figure BA are awesome now. Vehicle lists got nerfed across the board, FnP and higher initiative which was the staple for DoA got nerfed. Which BA list is it exactly that's much better today?

have you looked at death company with their 5 attacks on the charge and no downside? give them jump packs and they will roll anything in the game.
regular assault marines are great too.
vanguard vets are awesome as well.
so you dont get +1 inititive, instead you get inititive 10. I call that a win.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

deFl0 wrote:
Also toward the DE got worse comment. I totally disagree.

With the strong possability of night fight in every game, Dark eldar with their night vision can really exploit that. Also the concept of taking a farseer with doom is absolutely devestating with all the poison shot. Not to mention their flier are probaably the best out of all of them, beasts just became insanely good, DE are one of the few armies that can deal with high AV at range, hellions are really good a tank hunting now that they can glance them to death and hit on a 3+, skimmers moving fast can only be hit on a 6+, reavers can now move 48", andwith the new rules harlies get good again.

those are nice, but now:
flickerfields are redundant
open topped vehicles are deadly
we cant assualt very far out of our transports
fleet got nerfed
we have no answer to 2+ saves in combat
we still have no answer to dreads in combat, less in fact now that talos dont get 2d6 for armor pen
hellions are still overcosted
snap fire hurts wyches
FNP nerf hurts our entire army
havent read it but you cant assault the turn you arrive from reserve, so wwp lists are gimped

night fighting being good really depends on if stealth stacks. it could be ok, with a good FAQ it could be good, but I doubt it.

Death company are going to be 35 points pr model BEFORE you put any weapon upgrades on them. That's close to terminator cost for a unit with a 3+ save and no invul. Those 5 attacks will happen simultaneously with any marine you're assaulting so you're going to be taking a lot more hits than you did previously. FNP and FC which were basically the bread and butter of BA infantry both got significant downgrades which you'll feel. BA were never the best assault army, but they were really good at being durable and outlasting their opponents.

The 10 initiative isn't so straight forward. You trade ALL your bonuses for 1 attack per model at base strength. Let's face it, that works against smaller units but anytime you have 10 marines doing 10 hits with regular weapons, you're unlikely to impress any unit that's marginally good.

Overall it looks like they're losing survival for offense, which I'm not sure is the greatest tradeoff.

Swooping Hawks might be playable now. With their Haywire Grendas they should be able to destroy any vehicle in one turn of assault.

The same as Wraithguard.

Stoffer wrote:

Exergy wrote:

Milisim wrote:
Tau are better than before... What EVERYONE is forgetting is that EVERYONE else is getting better too! = Tau still suck.

DE and Eldar are much worse.
GK are worse
BA are awesome now.
not everyone is getting better. DE went from competitive to nearly unplayable. Eldar went from one mechout possibility to nothing.

Again, I'm not sure how you figure BA are awesome now. Vehicle lists got nerfed across the board, FnP and higher initiative which was the staple for DoA got nerfed. Which BA list is it exactly that's much better today?

Not many lists can field many Jump Infantry other than Blood Angels. If rumors are correct, their movement remains the same (12"), but their charge range is 2D6" with rerolls. In a single turn, a squad of Jump Infantry could potentially cover half the table. Sure infantry are rumored able to move and shoot, but their meager 6" movement is nothing compared to the distance covered by Jump Infantry in a single turn. On top of that there's the rumored I10 for the turn Jump Infantry charge in.

FnP being 5+ isn't a huge blow consider what BA has gain. The only question I have is what changes have been made to furious charge? +1 initiative means nothing now, but losing +1 strength would be a devastating blow.

I think infantry in general got buffed solely by the heavy nerfing of transports.

Transports no longer allow you to assault the turn you disembark, even if you remain still meaning the battle taxi approach is severely diminished. Hhull points also greatly reduces their survivability. They can also no longer just rush forward and pop-smoke either.

Green tide orks, infantry marines (especially DOA BA), phalanx necrons, and footdar will see a great rise in the meta while armies like MSU razor and venom spam will see a hefty decrease.

Ultimatley, in my opinion, the army meta will likely be similar to 4th edition where footsloggin was acceptable and not everything had to be meched up to compete.

Necron destroyers got a huge boost with the way preferred enemy works now, applying to ranged attacks as well as melee attacks. They might even be worth taking as heavies with those re-rolls. Or if not, the boost to rapid=fire weapons also benefits them

Griever wrote:

Shadelkan wrote:Tau in general. Nothing like having fire warriors that can fall back and fire at max distance.

Yup, the thought of fielding 72 Fire Warriors than can shoot 72 shots at 30" whilst still moving and 144 shots at 15" while still moving is sexy. I've always loved the models, maybe now I can actually use them.

I think rapid fire range is 12", not half range, it used to be half range in 4th but I think in 5th it got nerfed to 12"

iGuy91 wrote:Necron destroyers got a huge boost with the way preferred enemy works now, applying to ranged attacks as well as melee attacks. They might even be worth taking as heavies with those re-rolls. Or if not, the boost to rapid=fire weapons also benefits them

Destroyers suck in melee combat, along with most of the Necron Codex. The only that saves them is T5, which is easy enough to drown in dice. Rapid fire doesn't benefit destroyers of any flavor as they all have assault weapons.

SabrX wrote:

Stoffer wrote:

Exergy wrote:

Milisim wrote:
Tau are better than before... What EVERYONE is forgetting is that EVERYONE else is getting better too! = Tau still suck.

DE and Eldar are much worse.
GK are worse
BA are awesome now.
not everyone is getting better. DE went from competitive to nearly unplayable. Eldar went from one mechout possibility to nothing.

Again, I'm not sure how you figure BA are awesome now. Vehicle lists got nerfed across the board, FnP and higher initiative which was the staple for DoA got nerfed. Which BA list is it exactly that's much better today?

Not many lists can field many Jump Infantry other than Blood Angels. If rumors are correct, their movement remains the same (12"), but their charge range is 2D6" with rerolls. In a single turn, a squad of Jump Infantry could potentially cover half the table. Sure infantry are rumored able to move and shoot, but their meager 6" movement is nothing compared to the distance covered by Jump Infantry in a single turn. On top of that there's the rumored I10 for the turn Jump Infantry charge in.

FnP being 5+ isn't a huge blow consider what BA has gain. The only question I have is what changes have been made to furious charge? +1 initiative means nothing now, but losing +1 strength would be a devastating blow.

Yeah but again, that I10 attack is a single attack without modifiers. It's going to be super useful in certain situations but not against all enemies. I don't disagree that I can cross the board quicker, my issue is that once I get there I have a lot less tools for killing things efficiently.

Mantle wrote:

Griever wrote:

Shadelkan wrote:Tau in general. Nothing like having fire warriors that can fall back and fire at max distance.

Yup, the thought of fielding 72 Fire Warriors than can shoot 72 shots at 30" whilst still moving and 144 shots at 15" while still moving is sexy. I've always loved the models, maybe now I can actually use them.

I think rapid fire range is 12", not half range, it used to be half range in 4th but I think in 5th it got nerfed to 12"

Rapid fire was always 2 shots as 12

I'm torn between a biker army, seeing as they get the hammer attack and the rulebook not mentioning the extra toughness being irrelevant to ID. I'll wait for an FAQ on that though, because some codexes still say otherwise.

Otherwise I'm thinking of Tau. British Empire gunline at the back with deep striking units doing all they can to keep anything with the range from threatening my firewarriors.

Was starting Necrons, but don't want to look like I'm jumping on the powerwagon.

This all got better as far as I can tell.

Thousand sons

Ok they are way way way way to many points.

Cover is 5+ (except ruins)

so the 4++ is nice they are carrying cover.

They have relentless (we will see how that works out) meaning they can shoot there bolters full distance, which are AP 3!!!

I think that army looks like more fun now, especially because the squad leaders are psychers and might get to take powers from the new disciplines.




Also my 4th ed 1k point army is back!

Hq shas'o
fusion blaster ( melta)
missile pod (autocannon)
shield gen
Hw multitracker and drone controller

60 fire warriors

hammer heads x 2

Thrawn2600 wrote:Thousand sons

Ok they are way way way way to many points.

Cover is 5+ (except ruins)

so the 4++ is nice they are carrying cover.

They have relentless (we will see how that works out) meaning they can shoot there bolters full distance, which are AP 3!!!

I think that army looks like more fun now, especially because the squad leaders are psychers and might get to take powers from the new disciplines.

Bolded part is wrong I'm afraid. Rapid fire weapons are 1 shot at max. range, doesn't matter if you more or not. That one is as reliable as you can get.
I also think relentless doesn't give additional shot to RF, but I may be wrong on this one.

Bolded part is wrong I'm afraid. Rapid fire weapons are 1 shot at max. range, doesn't matter if you more or not. That one is as reliable as you can get.
I also think relentless doesn't give additional shot to RF, but I may be wrong on this one.

I think relentless will have to have some kind of advantage (i know they actually have slow and purposeful). there are so many units that are relentless, they seem to have given all rapidfire weapons relentless. I am sure they will do something to augment it. it might do something else entirely. but none the less AP3 bolters, and move an shoot for max range... that looks NICE!

Let me clear this up if I can.

Rapid-Fire weapons, pg.52; 2 shots at half range, 1 shot at full range. Can't assault normally if rapid-fire is used. Movement is now no penalty to either.

Relentless, pg. 41; counts as stationary and allows assault even after rapid-fire or heavy weapon shots (so essentially the same as 5th).

With regards to Thousand Sons, who have the SnP rule (page pg.42) is changed to normal 6" movement but no running, also no overwatch, but allows assaults as normal.

THANK YOU,

Also i think that sill makes thousand sons better than before. They can absolutely fight well, and now they have no real need for rhinos.

The lack of Overwatch is going to hurt them, particularly since they bring such otherwise horrific short range shooting.

Blood Angels can take Plasma Guns in assault squads.
I've always liked fast moving rapid firing plasma.
I'll be running 2x plasmaguns and vet with combi-plasma and power sword/axe, depending on special rule shakedown.

12" move with 24" range means I can play keep away with terminators until I either over-heat to death or they fail those invuls.

It's ~70 points cheaper than an identicle chaos version, and it scores.

-Matt

Exergy wrote:
DE and Eldar are much worse.
DE went from competitive to nearly unplayable. Eldar went from one mechout possibility to nothing.

I'm sorry but I could not disagree with this more. Did DE get nerfed? Yeah. Are some builds virtually unplayable? Also yeah. But that isn't a time for OMG the sky is falling like was during 4th. Scourges w/ haywire blasters are insane and IMO will replace blasterborn. Run 5 brides w/ haywires in their place for the extra venoms. In place of ravagers I see the voidraven really stepping it up. Not only is it tough to hit, but can take the FF so you don't need to try and dodge and thus use full BS every time. Implosion missiles went way up in stock.

I see this scenario. Take a squad of assault termis in a LR or LRC. I'm going to haywire it to death with scourges. Now my voidraven will unload the missile and void lances into them They will already be nice and clustered up for me from having to get out. Now on a 2+ and a failed invul the termis are gone! 3+ for paladins and 4+ for most charachters! Any other troops can be delt with through tried and true venom spam. If klaives, demi-klaives (I see this one) or agonisers get AP2 then that is a decent CC unit not to mention the rends coming from beasts.

Eldar have some nasty tricks too. Hawks with intercept! Yikes. Pathfinders sniping sgts, and special weapons w/ AP 1 or 2! Wraithlords, wraithguard, even guardians w/ warlock are nasty.

With every new edition you have to be able to adapt, with these two armies especially. Even as allies I'll take a fortuned shadowfield any day! Not to mention dooming a squad that I'm about to charge or light up with venoms! Fire Dragons are still strong being AP1 just like FirePrisms. Holofields aren't as good but that just means that tactics (and lists) need to change.

I can see people taking disintegrator-ravager a lot more.

They still have the potential to glance light vehicles to death, and will be good for pummeling terminators.

I will definitely be trying the voidraven out with 6th, and see how well it performs under the new rules

Not sure about missile launchers being rubbish now. Those Flakk missiles they can fire look pretty awesome.

Pottsey wrote:

King Pariah wrote:How about your rapid fire adjustment to plasma rifles? I think that is pretty nice

What adjustments? From a battlesuits point of view plasma works 100% the same as 5th. Technically it’s a nerf to battlesuits as they gain nothing but all the other army’s gain the battlesuits bonuses of moving and firing which was one of the main points of battlesuits.

from rumor thread if you have relentless and rapdfire you get an extra shot.

so battlesuit with plasma rifle = 2x shots at 24 or 3x shots at 12 on the move.

blaktoof wrote:from rumor thread if you have relentless and rapdfire you get an extra shot.

so battlesuit with plasma rifle = 2x shots at 24 or 3x shots at 12 on the move.

That's been shotdown like 4 million times now.

pretre wrote:

blaktoof wrote:from rumor thread if you have relentless and rapdfire you get an extra shot.

so battlesuit with plasma rifle = 2x shots at 24 or 3x shots at 12 on the move.

That's been shotdown like 4 million times now.

Really? pity.

sadness fills my blak heart. :(

Skarboy wrote:If the report that "infiltrate" units can bring ICs now, Mandrakes just became WWP droppers supreme.

Eh... right now, units cannot ASSAULT when coming from reserve... so, our only hope is that WWP is FAQ'ed that we can assault out of them.


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Exergy wrote:

Stoffer wrote:

Exergy wrote:

Milisim wrote:
Tau are better than before... What EVERYONE is forgetting is that EVERYONE else is getting better too! = Tau still suck.

DE and Eldar are much worse.
GK are worse
BA are awesome now.
not everyone is getting better. DE went from competitive to nearly unplayable. Eldar went from one mechout possibility to nothing.

Again, I'm not sure how you figure BA are awesome now. Vehicle lists got nerfed across the board, FnP and higher initiative which was the staple for DoA got nerfed. Which BA list is it exactly that's much better today?

have you looked at death company with their 5 attacks on the charge and no downside? give them jump packs and they will roll anything in the game.
regular assault marines are great too.
vanguard vets are awesome as well.
so you dont get +1 inititive, instead you get inititive 10. I call that a win.


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deFl0 wrote:
Also toward the DE got worse comment. I totally disagree.

With the strong possability of night fight in every game, Dark eldar with their night vision can really exploit that. Also the concept of taking a farseer with doom is absolutely devestating with all the poison shot. Not to mention their flier are probaably the best out of all of them, beasts just became insanely good, DE are one of the few armies that can deal with high AV at range, hellions are really good a tank hunting now that they can glance them to death and hit on a 3+, skimmers moving fast can only be hit on a 6+, reavers can now move 48", andwith the new rules harlies get good again.

those are nice, but now:
flickerfields are redundant
open topped vehicles are deadly
we cant assualt very far out of our transports
fleet got nerfed
we have no answer to 2+ saves in combat
we still have no answer to dreads in combat, less in fact now that talos dont get 2d6 for armor pen
hellions are still overcosted
snap fire hurts wyches
FNP nerf hurts our entire army
havent read it but you cant assault the turn you arrive from reserve, so wwp lists are gimped

night fighting being good really depends on if stealth stacks. it could be ok, with a good FAQ it could be good, but I doubt it.

Another thing to consider is that most DE list purchased the Flicker Field... now... just switch 'em to NighShield!

Akroma06 wrote:Eldar have some nasty tricks too. Hawks with intercept! Yikes. Pathfinders sniping sgts, and special weapons w/ AP 1 or 2! Wraithlords, wraithguard, even guardians w/ warlock are nasty.

With every new edition you have to be able to adapt, with these two armies especially. Even as allies I'll take a fortuned shadowfield any day! Not to mention dooming a squad that I'm about to charge or light up with venoms! Fire Dragons are still strong being AP1 just like FirePrisms. Holofields aren't as good but that just means that tactics (and lists) need to change.

I disagree with lots of those. Pathfinders got better but 10 man is 2 6's (generous), one wound on 4+ sniper and 4+ chance on Look Out Sir. After that there may be cover. 50% to kill 1 chosen model from 190 point T3 5+ model unit (4+ in cover)? They got better but still not great.
How exactly are wraithlord, wraithguard and guardians "nasty"?
Wraithlord has two attacks, MCs loose ignoring armour and Smash attacks mean no increase to strength (already S10) and ONE attack. They are super cool but didn't get any better and they were not "nasty" in 5th.
What changed about wraithguard? They got better at killing vehicles, but still suck at killing infantry.
Guardians nasty? That is the worst example of all. They are now considerably worse than Fire Warriors. They may even compete for number two on the worst troops in the game.
Swooping Hawks may be nice, I couldn't be happier. Still a T3 4+ unit for 20+ points and overpriced Exarch.

Disclaimer: All this is from the rumours I've been following. I honestly didn't see any actual buffs for WL, WG and guardians. Is there something I'm missing?
All other regular troops got something nice with changes to Rapid Fire and No Retreat gone. Our foot troops got squat.

I'm not panicking btw. I don't do tournaments and my gaming group has SW player who doesn't use LF. It will get harder for Eldar players, though.

Macok wrote:

Akroma06 wrote:Eldar have some nasty tricks too. Hawks with intercept! Yikes. Pathfinders sniping sgts, and special weapons w/ AP 1 or 2! Wraithlords, wraithguard, even guardians w/ warlock are nasty.

With every new edition you have to be able to adapt, with these two armies especially. Even as allies I'll take a fortuned shadowfield any day! Not to mention dooming a squad that I'm about to charge or light up with venoms! Fire Dragons are still strong being AP1 just like FirePrisms. Holofields aren't as good but that just means that tactics (and lists) need to change.

I disagree with lots of those. Pathfinders got better but 10 man is 2 6's (generous), one wound on 4+ sniper and 4+ chance on Look Out Sir. After that there may be cover. 50% to kill 1 chosen model from 190 point T3 5+ model unit (4+ in cover)? They got better but still not great.
How exactly are wraithlord, wraithguard and guardians "nasty"?
Wraithlord has two attacks, MCs loose ignoring armour and Smash attacks mean no increase to strength (already S10) and ONE attack. They are super cool but didn't get any better and they were not "nasty" in 5th.
What changed about wraithguard? They got better at killing vehicles, but still suck at killing infantry.
Guardians nasty? That is the worst example of all. They are now considerably worse than Fire Warriors. They may even compete for number two on the worst troops in the game.
Swooping Hawks may be nice, I couldn't be happier. Still a T3 4+ unit for 20+ points and overpriced Exarch.

Disclaimer: All this is from the rumours I've been following. I honestly didn't see any actual buffs for WL, WG and guardians. Is there something I'm missing?
All other regular troops got something nice with changes to Rapid Fire and No Retreat gone. Our foot troops got squat.

I'm not panicking btw. I don't do tournaments and my gaming group has SW player who doesn't use LF. It will get harder for Eldar players, though.

All MC's attacks are AP2... so, no change there...

whembly wrote:All MC's attacks are AP2... so, no change there...

Cool, must have misread some rumours. But they did loose 2D6 penetration, right?

Stoffer wrote: ..BA were never the best assault army...

Who would you say IS then? And don't say orks, cause they're not.

Phragonist wrote:

Stoffer wrote: ..BA were never the best assault army...

Who would you say IS then? And don't say orks, cause they're not.

Sorry, that came out a little too generic. I mean that assault marines aren't the best damage dealers. The reason I kill berzerkers, boys etc is because I can take a lot more of a beating than them and strike first. If the defensive advantage goes away, it's a pretty mediocre unit.

Macok wrote:

whembly wrote:All MC's attacks are AP2... so, no change there...

Cool, must have misread some rumours. But they did loose 2D6 penetration, right?

By default, I think they do lose it... however, there's a new USR that grants 2d6 pen (armourbane?).
But, MC gets Smash tho... so, hitting them at S10 is a tradeoff (and since they're AP2, they get +1 to dmg chart)

Not having to spend pts on FF for DE means you can grab other upgrades so its no loss there.

I think being able to take some Eldar Psykers with DE will be pretty cool as well. DE/Eldar foot lists will be interesting.

Eldar is an army Iv always wanted to get into, now heres my excuse lol.

Harbinger of the storm crypteks just became a new favorite if not broken unit.

On a 2+ after hits, I can strip 1 HP? and I get 4 shots with him? well, that'll kill just about any tank.

Swooping Hawks with Skyleap, coming in automatically every turn. On the downside, not sure if Intercept is worth it anymore.
Farseers depending on how GW re-works them could be much better. Same with Warlocks (not sure how psychic disciplines work with models that don't have to roll psychic tests for their powers).

However, with the loss of being able to assault after running, my Nid army is in need of a major re-write.
Power Weapons being only AP3 means I need to find a new way to take out Termies as well.

Note to self, Toxin Sacs a must for monstrous creatures.

Tigarius (sp), the C:SM librarian is a lvl 3 mastery psyker. While he could always cast 3 powers a turn, the ability to get the new disciplines increases the number of effective powers per turn he could cast.

With the ability to choose powers from the rule book, that gives him a lot of force multiplier goodness.

Since he lets you reroll reserves, and the base reserve roll is 3+, your reserves have a 8/9 chance of coming in on turn 2 if you wish.

BA just got knocked from top tier to mid tier.
FNP - nerfed
FC - nerfed
fast transports - nerfed
Note that jump troops only get the bonus attack if they did NOT use jump packs in the movement phase. You use them in movement or assault, not both.
They also strike at Initiative 4 and will lose any charge bonuses if they want to multi-charge.

Instinctive Behaviour - Rage special rule.... YES!

I say YES!!!

edit: okay not that great & situational. but it is a plus.

Xeriapt wrote:Not having to spend pts on FF for DE means you can grab other upgrades so its no loss there.

I think being able to take some Eldar Psykers with DE will be pretty cool as well. DE/Eldar foot lists will be interesting.

Eldar is an army Iv always wanted to get into, now heres my excuse lol.

except Venoms have FF built in to their cost

Flash gits ignoring cover is boss as far as I am concerned.

Might be worthwhile now

Sunoccard wrote:Harbinger of the storm crypteks just became a new favorite if not broken unit.

On a 2+ after hits, I can strip 1 HP? and I get 4 shots with him? well, that'll kill just about any tank.

Stormtek, Veiltek, 10 Warriors.

Pop.

Triarch praetorians went from zero to hero after the faq.

Changes to morale help all xenos.

Rangers are nasty because special/heavy weapons don't get a look out sir, and the new meta will be less mechanized.

Wraith guard are scary because they can rapidly strip hull points, and with divination it would be foolish to charge them while they have full bs+ counter charge cast on them.

FAQ has been released. No assault after entering play from WWP.....

Suddenly awesome units: Look at flyers, terrain that can be bought for your army, and allies.
These alone will GW guarantee some increased sales. Other sales go down like those for tanks or transports.

Anybody noticed Vanguard Veterans can charge 12" after Deep Striking?

In a 2000 point game, you can run 6 lone wolves and just keep jumping off battlements until they die. So many victory points. Suicide wolves ftw!

schadenfreude wrote:Triarch praetorians went from zero to hero after the faq.

Changes to morale help all xenos.

Rangers are nasty because special/heavy weapons don't get a look out sir, and the new meta will be less mechanized.

Wraith guard are scary because they can rapidly strip hull points, and with divination it would be foolish to charge them while they have full bs+ counter charge cast on them.

. . . So you consider +1 S but I 1 an amazing improvement for Triarchs? They sucked before, and they suck even worse now. Termies would at least lose a model or two before striking with the old stats.

With slots doubled at 2k, I doubt there will ever be points left for Triarchs. 36 Wraiths take up 1620 points, and they're still entirely better than RoC Triarchs.

Also, it's a 1/6 chance to get Foreboding. Even on Elrad, it's not a sure thing.

Joey wrote:BA just got knocked from top tier to mid tier.
FNP - nerfed
FC - nerfed
fast transports - nerfed
Note that jump troops only get the bonus attack if they did NOT use jump packs in the movement phase. You use them in movement or assault, not both.
They also strike at Initiative 4 and will lose any charge bonuses if they want to multi-charge.

DC - HUGE buff
FNP - buffed imo. Sure, it's only 5+ now, but you don't lose FNP anymore when you get attacked by armor-penetrating attacks...which seems like a big buff to me.
new Psychic Powers: buff at first sight, new powers seem really strong

phantommaster wrote:Anybody noticed Vanguard Veterans can charge 12" after Deep Striking?

I'm pretty sure your movement is either 12 + 6 (move + assault) or 6 + 2d6 and the 2nd option only works if you didn't use your jump pack for movement, which you did when you deep struck. Or am I wrong?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Sigvatr wrote:

Joey wrote:BA just got knocked from top tier to mid tier.
FNP - nerfed
FC - nerfed
fast transports - nerfed
Note that jump troops only get the bonus attack if they did NOT use jump packs in the movement phase. You use them in movement or assault, not both.
They also strike at Initiative 4 and will lose any charge bonuses if they want to multi-charge.

DC - HUGE buff
FNP - buffed imo. Sure, it's only 5+ now, but you don't lose FNP anymore when you get attacked by armor-penetrating attacks...which seems like a big buff to me.
new Psychic Powers: buff at first sight, new powers seem really strong

DC are also the price of terminators once you start slapping gear on them but without a 2+ save. There aren't really a lot of models I'd pay that much for unless they come with terminator-esque survival.

FNP is definitely not buffed. The plasma and melta shots I could live with, not being able to shrug off small arms fire in large quantities is going to be awful. For example, you're going to get shredded attacking 30 boys with overwatch.

The psychic powers I agree with, they seem fun.

Hmmm, regarding FNP, I might be biased as Necron player.

Before, every Rending Attack by our Wraiths immediatey killed a DC, without any chance of fighting back, same as being attacked by Warscythes, Destroyers, etc. All AP 3 stuff.

Everything denied FNP, but now, you still get the 5+ save.

DC lacks survivability compared to Terminators, but make up for it by a better offense now due to the vastly improved Rage USR - and let's not forget that they can sweep while terminators can't. And they count as standard + allow you to field a (again buffed) cheesebot.

Then again, Terminators also got a major buff due to the Power Weapon nerf.

Irdiumstern wrote:

schadenfreude wrote:Triarch praetorians went from zero to hero after the faq.

Changes to morale help all xenos.

Rangers are nasty because special/heavy weapons don't get a look out sir, and the new meta will be less mechanized.

Wraith guard are scary because they can rapidly strip hull points, and with divination it would be foolish to charge them while they have full bs+ counter charge cast on them.

. . . So you consider +1 S but I 1 an amazing improvement for Triarchs? They sucked before, and they suck even worse now. Termies would at least lose a model or two before striking with the old stats.

With slots doubled at 2k, I doubt there will ever be points left for Triarchs. 36 Wraiths take up 1620 points, and they're still entirely better than RoC Triarchs.

Also, it's a 1/6 chance to get Foreboding. Even on Elrad, it's not a sure thing.

Its the AP 2 combined with a destroyer lord is what makes the triarchs really good. Giving everyone preferred enemy, awesome.

Triarchs are strength 6, same as wraiths
I 1 vrs I 2 with whips(so if not in BTB no real benefit)
If you give them whip coils wraiths are 5 points more than triarchs
Triarchs have a Ap2 strength 5 shooting attack gun
Triarchs have two attacks less
Triarchs always ignore armor saves, the wraiths ignoring on 6s
Triarchs have resurrection protocols
Triarchs are in the elite slot

Triarchs gain much more from a destroyer lord than wraiths do
Not so clear cut in my mind

Leth wrote:

Irdiumstern wrote:

schadenfreude wrote:Triarch praetorians went from zero to hero after the faq.

Changes to morale help all xenos.

Rangers are nasty because special/heavy weapons don't get a look out sir, and the new meta will be less mechanized.

Wraith guard are scary because they can rapidly strip hull points, and with divination it would be foolish to charge them while they have full bs+ counter charge cast on them.

. . . So you consider +1 S but I 1 an amazing improvement for Triarchs? They sucked before, and they suck even worse now. Termies would at least lose a model or two before striking with the old stats.

With slots doubled at 2k, I doubt there will ever be points left for Triarchs. 36 Wraiths take up 1620 points, and they're still entirely better than RoC Triarchs.

Also, it's a 1/6 chance to get Foreboding. Even on Elrad, it's not a sure thing.

Its the AP 2 combined with a destroyer lord is what makes the triarchs really good. Giving everyone preferred enemy, awesome.

Triarchs are strength 6, same as wraiths
I 1 vrs I 2 with whips(so if not in BTB no real benefit)
If you give them whip coils wraiths are 5 points more than triarchs
Triarchs have a Ap2 strength 5 shooting attack gun
Triarchs have two attacks less
Triarchs always ignore armor saves, the wraiths ignoring on 6s
Triarchs have resurrection protocols
Triarchs are in the elite slot

Triarchs gain much more from a destroyer lord than wraiths do
Not so clear cut in my mind

Hmmmm those are some very good points actually.

My main gripe about them is that they absolutely need the Destroyer Lord to be effective and the DL takes a HQ slot that could as well be taken by a CCB Overlord, a named HQ, etc. Furthermore, you therefore limit your number of potential squads to 1 (as I assume that you don't want to refuse taking a Royal Court).

You also seem to have completely forgotten about defense. Wraiths get a 3++ while TP only have a 3+ which means that any power weapon denies them of every save...and PW aren't quite rare. RP do not mean a lot in melee as we are likely to get swept anyway (50% chance most of the time).

About the Whip coils:

a) You do not give every Wraith a WC, only about 3. That's enough.

b) The I difference is not only 1 when comparing the I. WC mean that EVERY enemy I will be reduced to 1. I10? => I 1. I8? -> I1. TP always have their pitiful I1 which means that most enemies strike first or at least at the same time. In the former case, with them only having a normal armor save, they are likely to lose quite a few models before getting the chance to strike back.

TP are a lot more expensive than Wraiths as they require a transport which is 100 points on top of the unit - alternatively, you need a Veiltek. TP who walk will never make it to the enemy.

You also forgot about Wraiths not being slowed by any terrain.

Overall, I still consider Wraiths being far superior. Which is bad, because TP are a lot cheaper $-wise

Joey wrote:BA just got knocked from top tier to mid tier.
FNP - nerfed
FC - nerfed
fast transports - nerfed
Note that jump troops only get the bonus attack if they did NOT use jump packs in the movement phase. You use them in movement or assault, not both.
They also strike at Initiative 4 and will lose any charge bonuses if they want to multi-charge.

I don't think they have been taken off top tier at all. They are still up there, but under a different build. The buffs they got to certain units (DC) far out weigh the nerfs they got.

Flying MC are pretty nasty now too. If you stay in the air, and shooty, or just get your deamons right up in there fast they are pretty much impossible to kill along with fateweaver.

All moving 24" while in swooping need 6s to hit with rerollable saves..... :0 What!
Just fly up and kill everything in assualt, or (I think will work better if you just fly around in swooping and flame everything).

Nasty!!

I wouldn't say it's a suddenly awesome unit, more like a suddenly awesome piece of wargear. Space Wolves' Runic Armour becomes very useful now that most power weapons aren't AP2 and the 5+ invul vs. psychic attacks matters more with the new psychic powers.

Exergy wrote:

Xeriapt wrote:Not having to spend pts on FF for DE means you can grab other upgrades so its no loss there.

I think being able to take some Eldar Psykers with DE will be pretty cool as well. DE/Eldar foot lists will be interesting.

Eldar is an army Iv always wanted to get into, now heres my excuse lol.

except Venoms have FF built in to their cost

An argument could be made that the save from flickerfield is separate from the jink rule, so you get both. Just putting it out there.

By the way, Ghazkhull in a unit of fellow nobs or meganobs is awesome. Put him out front. He gets his basic 2+ save, or is attacked by AP 1 or 2, a 5++ for cybork body and a 5++ if you include Mad Dok Grotsnik in the unit also. And if that were not bad enough, a 2+ look out, sir because he's an independent character. That sort of makes up for the minimal Ork nerfs in my opinion.

The ideal scenario would be a TH/SS Terminator with FNP. That Terminator would get 2+/5+ against Power Swords, 3+/5+ against Power Axes, 3+ against Power Fists, and of course 2+/5+ against everything else, making the unit essentially insurmountable in combat.

In addition, its attacks would be valid against vehicles, ignore FNP, instant death T3/4, at strike at the same initiative as everything else that could threaten the unit.

Calgar is looking like a beat stick the more and more I think about it.

It's looking like Eldar are the most powerful codex right now. Not sure how long it will last though.

Vibro cannons inflict automatic glancing hits on every model in a 36" line. No Line of sight needed. 3 batteries of vibrocannons means three 36" lines of auto glancing to vehicles ( and a bunch of str 6 hits to non vehicles). Even flyers can't escape the line of glancing hits. Eldar should be able to wreck almost every enemy vehicle by turn 3. How do you not keep 2-3 vehicle out of a 36" line? It can't happen. All vehicles dead by turn 3 from three 150pt units.

Next Eldar excel at laying down huge amounts of fire into foot units. Warp spiders, dire avengers, even guardians will all get buffed with guide and the enemy will be hit with doom. This will force an obscene number of saves on the enemy foot units. Remember the Vibro cannons glanced all the vehicles to death already.

IMO Eldar need a new book and fast to keep them from just destroying 6th edition.

DarthDiggler wrote:It's looking like Eldar are the most powerful codex right now. Not sure how long it will last though.

Vibro cannons inflict automatic glancing hits on every model in a 36" line. No Line of sight needed. 3 batteries of vibrocannons means three 36" lines of auto glancing to vehicles ( and a bunch of str 6 hits to non vehicles). Even flyers can't escape the line of glancing hits. Eldar should be able to wreck almost every enemy vehicle by turn 3. How do you not keep 2-3 vehicle out of a 36" line? It can't happen. All vehicles dead by turn 3 from three 150pt units.

Next Eldar excel at laying down huge amounts of fire into foot units. Warp spiders, dire avengers, even guardians will all get buffed with guide and the enemy will be hit with doom. This will force an obscene number of saves on the enemy foot units. Remember the Vibro cannons glanced all the vehicles to death already.

IMO Eldar need a new book and fast to keep them from just destroying 6th edition.

Are... are you being serious? Sure the vibro cannons got marginally better but almost everything else got nerfed. Yes I will probably bring my Warp Spiders back out but they're still incredibly squishy and will die to one turn of shooting, as will Avengers and Guardians, especially with the new reduced cover.

Our vehicles are just as susceptable to being glanced to death but our transports are two or three times as expensive as most other armies so it hurts a lot more.

There are 5 things in the whole book that will ignore 2+ armor in cc: the Avatar and the Wraithlord because they're MCs, Eldrad who shouldn't be in cc anyway, Yriel who is awesome and always has been, and a Striking Scorpions exarch with a claw. We're going to need to rely on masses of fire, expensive starcannons, or Fire Dragons to take out terminators more than ever.

T3 gets hurt a lot more by Overwatch than MEQs. Even if only 1 in 6 shots hit, it's easier to wound us and we usually have worse armor saves. Not being able to assault from stationary vehicles mean we have to endure an extra round of fire before getting into combat.

How exactly are Eldar now overpowered?

If you want to look at OP, look at 2+/3++/FNP T-hammer termies under the new rules.

They are damn near unkillable, barring MASSIVE wounds spamming.

Pony_law wrote:Calgar is looking like a beat stick the more and more I think about it.

He's also 265pts. He already got 5 attacks before, since he had two powerfists. You get to reroll one miss, and all wounds. The only buff he gets is if you are using Terminator Armor, he gets to laugh at everything that's not a fist/axe.

Ascalam wrote:If you want to look at OP, look at 2+/3++/FNP T-hammer termies under the new rules.

They are damn near unkillable, barring MASSIVE wounds spamming.

Word I just went over that, they literally have no weakness, lol. And if you really wanted to be a butthole you could throw a T5 IC in the unit and use them to front the S8 fire.

MandalorynOranj wrote:

DarthDiggler wrote:It's looking like Eldar are the most powerful codex right now. Not sure how long it will last though.

Vibro cannons inflict automatic glancing hits on every model in a 36" line. No Line of sight needed. 3 batteries of vibrocannons means three 36" lines of auto glancing to vehicles ( and a bunch of str 6 hits to non vehicles). Even flyers can't escape the line of glancing hits. Eldar should be able to wreck almost every enemy vehicle by turn 3. How do you not keep 2-3 vehicle out of a 36" line? It can't happen. All vehicles dead by turn 3 from three 150pt units.

Next Eldar excel at laying down huge amounts of fire into foot units. Warp spiders, dire avengers, even guardians will all get buffed with guide and the enemy will be hit with doom. This will force an obscene number of saves on the enemy foot units. Remember the Vibro cannons glanced all the vehicles to death already.

IMO Eldar need a new book and fast to keep them from just destroying 6th edition.

Are... are you being serious? Sure the vibro cannons got marginally better but almost everything else got nerfed. Yes I will probably bring my Warp Spiders back out but they're still incredibly squishy and will die to one turn of shooting, as will Avengers and Guardians, especially with the new reduced cover.

Our vehicles are just as susceptable to being glanced to death but our transports are two or three times as expensive as most other armies so it hurts a lot more.

There are 5 things in the whole book that will ignore 2+ armor in cc: the Avatar and the Wraithlord because they're MCs, Eldrad who shouldn't be in cc anyway, Yriel who is awesome and always has been, and a Striking Scorpions exarch with a claw. We're going to need to rely on masses of fire, expensive starcannons, or Fire Dragons to take out terminators more than ever.

T3 gets hurt a lot more by Overwatch than MEQs. Even if only 1 in 6 shots hit, it's easier to wound us and we usually have worse armor saves. Not being able to assault from stationary vehicles mean we have to endure an extra round of fire before getting into combat.

How exactly are Eldar now overpowered?

Footdar takes no vehicles and does not assault until something is crippled from shooting. The one weakness of Footdar in 5th was heavy vehicle lists and even that was mitigated by good players playing the list. Now that the Vibro cannons can eliminate enemy vehicles easier than most everything else in the game, it is quite simple to shoot the bejesus out of the enemy with all the units.

Overwatch doesn't hurt Eldar because they won't charge,. They'll stand back at 18" and shoot 20 shurikans from dire avengers. Guide and doom dishes out over 13 wounds to a T4 unit, like marines. That's one unit of dire avengers with no upgrades. Add in warp spiders who dish out over 17 wounds and the basic guardian squad which dishes out over 10 and enemy 2+ save units will start to disappear by rolling a 1 for the armor save.

What protects the 'squishy' Eldar? That's up to you. Sometimes it's a fortunes Avatar - yeah just try and bring him down. Sometimes it's a full squad of Harlequins and sometimes it's Wraithguard who introduce the enemy assault unit to the wraith cannon. All are capable of taking a depleted assault unit from any codex and stopping them cold.

I would suggest you read up on the exploits of Blackmoor, Sparks, and Reecius who have taken Footdar lists to many major tournaments and the European Championships and have done quite well with them. Now they are more powerful than ever.

DarthDiggler wrote:

MandalorynOranj wrote:

DarthDiggler wrote:It's looking like Eldar are the most powerful codex right now. Not sure how long it will last though.

Vibro cannons inflict automatic glancing hits on every model in a 36" line. No Line of sight needed. 3 batteries of vibrocannons means three 36" lines of auto glancing to vehicles ( and a bunch of str 6 hits to non vehicles). Even flyers can't escape the line of glancing hits. Eldar should be able to wreck almost every enemy vehicle by turn 3. How do you not keep 2-3 vehicle out of a 36" line? It can't happen. All vehicles dead by turn 3 from three 150pt units.

Next Eldar excel at laying down huge amounts of fire into foot units. Warp spiders, dire avengers, even guardians will all get buffed with guide and the enemy will be hit with doom. This will force an obscene number of saves on the enemy foot units. Remember the Vibro cannons glanced all the vehicles to death already.

IMO Eldar need a new book and fast to keep them from just destroying 6th edition.

Are... are you being serious? Sure the vibro cannons got marginally better but almost everything else got nerfed. Yes I will probably bring my Warp Spiders back out but they're still incredibly squishy and will die to one turn of shooting, as will Avengers and Guardians, especially with the new reduced cover.

Our vehicles are just as susceptable to being glanced to death but our transports are two or three times as expensive as most other armies so it hurts a lot more.

There are 5 things in the whole book that will ignore 2+ armor in cc: the Avatar and the Wraithlord because they're MCs, Eldrad who shouldn't be in cc anyway, Yriel who is awesome and always has been, and a Striking Scorpions exarch with a claw. We're going to need to rely on masses of fire, expensive starcannons, or Fire Dragons to take out terminators more than ever.

T3 gets hurt a lot more by Overwatch than MEQs. Even if only 1 in 6 shots hit, it's easier to wound us and we usually have worse armor saves. Not being able to assault from stationary vehicles mean we have to endure an extra round of fire before getting into combat.

How exactly are Eldar now overpowered?

Footdar takes no vehicles and does not assault until something is crippled from shooting. The one weakness of Footdar in 5th was heavy vehicle lists and even that was mitigated by good players playing the list. Now that the Vibro cannons can eliminate enemy vehicles easier than most everything else in the game, it is quite simple to shoot the bejesus out of the enemy with all the units.

Overwatch doesn't hurt Eldar because they won't charge,. They'll stand back at 18" and shoot 20 shurikans from dire avengers. Guide and doom dishes out over 13 wounds to a T4 unit, like marines. That's one unit of dire avengers with no upgrades. Add in warp spiders who dish out over 17 wounds and the basic guardian squad which dishes out over 10 and enemy 2+ save units will start to disappear by rolling a 1 for the armor save.

What protects the 'squishy' Eldar? That's up to you. Sometimes it's a fortunes Avatar - yeah just try and bring him down. Sometimes it's a full squad of Harlequins and sometimes it's Wraithguard who introduce the enemy assault unit to the wraith cannon. All are capable of taking a depleted assault unit from any codex and stopping them cold.

I would suggest you read up on the exploits of Blackmoor, Sparks, and Reecius who have taken Footdar lists to many major tournaments and the European Championships and have done quite well with them. Now they are more powerful than ever.

Except now if you're taking all these vibro cannons you aren't taking War Walkers, which I had understood to be a large part of most foot lists. That's a lot of shots you're missing out on, and in all honesty would probably be better at taking out armor as they can glance a vehicle more than once per turn. Even with the change to T7 two wounds, support batteries are still vulnerable, although I guess not needing LoS negates that issue.

Also with the changes to rapid fire that 18" range isn't as potent as it once was. Those units standing back will be taking more fire as the enemy advances than they previously would have, and with less defence against it.

I'm not saying these changes make them unplayable, just that it's damaging, and I wouldn't call it overpowered at all, especially since it's just one build out of the whole book.

With the buffs to DC and the very nice FNP change, and the understated ability for jump infantry to SAFELY drop into dangerous terrain and quite easily live to tell the tale, I don't know why anybody thinks they're going down a tier. I mean, we'll probably see less mechs. World's smallest violin, but to me, this higher concentration of powerful infantry strikes me as more BA-like, and more fun to play.


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But I'm pretty sure Astorath's Axe is under the unusual category, and so he's AP3, rendering most of the reroll successful invul save business moot for him.

But I'll make sure that's correct.


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........against termies, although other, non-2+ (and non-INSANE, in other words) models will be prime targets for him and his DC posse.

Triarchs are jump infantry, so no need for that transport, I was not saying that they are crazy better than wraiths, however they do have a niche and I have not had as good of luck with wraiths getting rending, so the idea of reliable no saves is pretty good. In a unit with a sergeant you would just have the destroyer lord challenge the Guy with the special weapon to protect the triarchs.

They are still a unit that will require some tactics to use but they are now useable instead of useless.

Correct me if I'm worng, but aren't the "rods of covenant" just power weapons therefore Ap3?

In the Necron FAQ, Rods of the Covenant are stated as being identical to power axes, and as such are AP2 , +1 Str, and swing at initiative 1.

GK Brotherhood Champions still aren't really worth taking, but the new Challenge rules have given them some pretty abusive utility (honestly though, these guys really should be Elites, they have some pretty cool abilities, even more with some of the new rules in 6th, but don't bring enough to the table to justify taking over the other options).

Run in to a big enemy unit, like a mob of Boyz or something, challenge the character, and then use Blade Shield to hold the unit down for the better part of the game.

Really, this guy seems like he was just made to abuse the hell out of challenges. Crowe too.
In fact, the fact that this makes Crowe slightly useful is really a huge buff for Paladin armies. He's not JUST a tax anymore!

Titan Atlas wrote:With the buffs to DC and the very nice FNP change, and the understated ability for jump infantry to SAFELY drop into dangerous terrain and quite easily live to tell the tale, I don't know why anybody thinks they're going down a tier.

The FNP change is really almost an across the board nerf.

Against small and medium arms fire it took a nerf. (Anything with Str7 or lower with an AP of 3+. This is most weapons)
Against high strength weapons it stayed the same. (Anything with Str 8, since it's denied in both cases)
The only thing it got a buff against are low/mid power weapons with high AP (plasma is the only thing I can think of off the top of my head but I know there are others) and non-x2 str power weapons.
So over all it got a decent buff in melee but a major nerf against shooting. the unfortunate part is that the FC nerf means that we're striking simultaneously with other I 4 units and so the survivability gained from FNP on power weapons gets at least a little balanced by the loss of units from more hits in combat, it's an even bigger nerf if that unit is only using CCW because then they would have hit second and we would have gained a 4+ FNP roll instead of simultaneously with only a 5+.

DC got a nice buff and SG got a nice buff, but Priests (and the abilities they grant) took a nerf.


edit
OH! and rending, we also got a buff against rending.
Over all I'd still call it a slight nerf.

No more fast vehicles for BA! No joke.

In the FAQ it says you have to look in the rulebook for unit type and hull points. Check rulebook... Only dreads and Baal predator in BA section... refer to space marines section?!?!?(what else are we supposed to do?)

Hopefully this gets rectified in the rulebook FAQ 1.0.

Kavish wrote:No more fast vehicles for BA! No joke.

In the FAQ it says you have to look in the rulebook for unit type and hull points. Check rulebook... Only dreads and Baal predator in BA section... refer to space marines section?!?!?(what else are we supposed to do?)

Hopefully this gets rectified in the rulebook FAQ 1.0.

Wait what? Where do you see that BA have no more fast vehicles?

Has anyone mentioned Stealth suits for tau. Jumping around terrain with a 2+ cover is just a little crazy and quite a bit more funny.

Ledabot wrote:Has anyone mentioned Stealth suits for tau. Jumping around terrain with a 2+ cover is just a little crazy and quite a bit more funny.

For more S5 AP5 shots? Kind of a waste of the Elite slots that bring your Plasma and S7 Shots.

DarthDiggler wrote:Vibro cannons inflict automatic glancing hits on every model in a 36" line. No Line of sight needed. 3 batteries of vibrocannons means three 36" lines of auto glancing to vehicles ( and a bunch of str 6 hits to non vehicles).

Read the wording carefully. The battery inflicts 1 glancing hit, not 3 glancing hits. This is not nearly as powerful as it seemed at first.

DarthDiggler wrote:Next Eldar excel at laying down huge amounts of fire into foot units. Warp spiders, dire avengers, even guardians will all get buffed with guide and the enemy will be hit with doom. This will force an obscene number of saves on the enemy foot units.

How is this different than 5th?


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MandalorynOranj wrote:Except now if you're taking all these vibro cannons you aren't taking War Walkers, which I had understood to be a large part of most foot lists.

First, as before -- vibrocannons are not what people say they are.

Secondly, Blackmoor has already said that hes looking at combining DE allies with Eldar for his foot list. It makes sense really -- trade out your crappy troops for excellent DE ones.

Titan Atlas wrote:With the buffs to DC and the very nice FNP change, and the understated ability for jump infantry to SAFELY drop into dangerous terrain and quite easily live to tell the tale, I don't know why anybody thinks they're going down a tier. I mean, we'll probably see less mechs. World's smallest violin, but to me, this higher concentration of powerful infantry strikes me as more BA-like, and more fun to play.

You lost army-wide 4+ cover, army wide 4+ FNP, can't use rhinos/razors to get troops to the front in a hurry, there's a 1 in 3 chance that you'll be fighting length ways (against serious dakka opponents, expect pain).
So your troops will have to be foot or in very expensive transports and they'll be taking 5+ covers and 5+FNP. Sounds like a drop in tier to me

Not to mention that the random charges, Overwatch, and Wound Allocation all work to make it far more difficult to assault effectively and far easier to stand and shoot, or walk and shoot.

The loss of "No Retreat" wounds means you're never getting out of combat with big mobs or orks or tyranids, Instead, you'll walk up with Tactical squads and Sternguard, who will just bolter them down.

Really, there isn't much in this game that ASM will do better than Tactical squads beyond capturing and contesting objectives far from your own lines. Dust off your 4th edition army, and paint more lascannons and missile launchers.

labmouse42 wrote:

DarthDiggler wrote:Vibro cannons inflict automatic glancing hits on every model in a 36" line. No Line of sight needed. 3 batteries of vibrocannons means three 36" lines of auto glancing to vehicles ( and a bunch of str 6 hits to non vehicles).

Read the wording carefully. The battery inflicts 1 glancing hit, not 3 glancing hits. This is not nearly as powerful as it seemeds.

I know each battery inflicts one glancing hit and ou have 3 batteries. At minimum to will inflict 3 glancing hits on a vehicle each turn enough to kill just about anything. On the other hand try and put 4-5 vehicles on the table and not have 2 or more be in a straight line from 3 different vibro cannon batteries. It's next to impossible unless you are skirting the side board edges and if you are doing that your tanks are out of the fight anyway. No, more often then not you will hit multiple vehicles with a single vibro cannon battery. Try it on the table.

Stoffer wrote:FNP is definitely not buffed. The plasma and melta shots I could live with, not being able to shrug off small arms fire in large quantities is going to be awful. For example, you're going to get shredded attacking 30 boys with overwatch.

Really!? I mean 30 boys snapfiring on overwatch would yield approximately 5 hits (since they need 6's to hit on Overwatch), then they'd need 4+ to wound, so 2.5 wounds... of which you will fail .8333 of these saves and after FNP those 30 boys will inflict a total of .555 wounds.

I don't exactly see any shredding going on... unless you count the shredding those assault marines are going to do when they reach those boys.

Admittedly there are some things that could make those boys a little more dangerous. a template weapon or two giving out a few more autohits, or maybe an errant rocket is mixed in that overwatch, but the point is... 30 boys will not shred anything with overwatch fire, barring extremely unusual rolling.

I think it is a bigger deal that you can FNP power weapons.

DarthDiggler wrote:

labmouse42 wrote:

DarthDiggler wrote:Vibro cannons inflict automatic glancing hits on every model in a 36" line. No Line of sight needed. 3 batteries of vibrocannons means three 36" lines of auto glancing to vehicles ( and a bunch of str 6 hits to non vehicles).

Read the wording carefully. The battery inflicts 1 glancing hit, not 3 glancing hits. This is not nearly as powerful as it seemeds.

I know each battery inflicts one glancing hit and ou have 3 batteries. At minimum to will inflict 3 glancing hits on a vehicle each turn enough to kill just about anything. On the other hand try and put 4-5 vehicles on the table and not have 2 or more be in a straight line from 3 different vibro cannon batteries. It's next to impossible unless you are skirting the side board edges and if you are doing that your tanks are out of the fight anyway. No, more often then not you will hit multiple vehicles with a single vibro cannon battery. Try it on the table.

Yeah that'd probably work, but do you really want to use your entire heavy support section to kill maybe one vehicle a turn? You'd be giving up Walkers which put out our biggest volume of fire, Fire Prisms which are our best way to take out Terminators AND dent hordes, Wraithlords who are just a good utility, and Dark Reapers, ho were previously bad (and might still be) but seem like they could be better now with the new cover mechanics.

pretre wrote:I think it is a bigger deal that you can FNP power weapons.

That's fair, PW were one of my biggest banes previously so I can see why you'd say that. A 5+ save is not crazy good against it however (hence most people look down upon tactical termies) and it makes you weaker against all incoming fire on your way to that power weapon combat.

I'll need to play a few games and see how it all shakes out in the end, I'm not going to jump to any "The sky is falling" type conclusions. Hell even if there is a nerf there, the three units I wanted to field more got a buff(DC, SG, and Stormravens), so I'm happy.

Awesome Christ wrote:

pretre wrote:I think it is a bigger deal that you can FNP power weapons.

That's fair, PW were one of my biggest banes previously so I can see why you'd say that. A 5+ save is not crazy good against it however (hence most people look down upon tactical termies) and it makes you weaker against all incoming fire on your way to that power weapon combat.

I'll need to play a few games and see how it all shakes out in the end, I'm not going to jump to any "The sky is falling" type conclusions. Hell even if there is a nerf there, the three units I wanted to field more got a buff(DC, SG, and Stormravens), so I'm happy.

As someone who's played a DOA list for a year, I completely disagree that power weapons are a big deal. Outside of GK, power weapons are available in such small numbers that it never really mattered. You'd always assume that you'd lose a model or two in CC to a powersword or a claw. The most important thing was always crossing the board without getting pummeled by small arms fire or the mass of non AP weapons, which we're now significantly weaker against. The entire chain leading up to the fight BA have taken a kick in the teeth.

To even get to the enemy you rely on 4+ cover and FnP, both of which are nerfed. Charge; now get shot by overwatch. Once in combat, only striking at I4, which means you'll hit at the same time as most of the other marine dexes and after some of the xenos ones. The jump pack assault will only work situationally (when you're basically 100% sure you'll make the charge).

The tradeoff for our codex is 35 point jump troops with a single wound, what a joke.

Stoffer wrote:

Awesome Christ wrote:

pretre wrote:I think it is a bigger deal that you can FNP power weapons.

That's fair, PW were one of my biggest banes previously so I can see why you'd say that. A 5+ save is not crazy good against it however (hence most people look down upon tactical termies) and it makes you weaker against all incoming fire on your way to that power weapon combat.

I'll need to play a few games and see how it all shakes out in the end, I'm not going to jump to any "The sky is falling" type conclusions. Hell even if there is a nerf there, the three units I wanted to field more got a buff(DC, SG, and Stormravens), so I'm happy.

As someone who's played a DOA list for a year, I completely disagree that power weapons are a big deal. Outside of GK, power weapons are available in such small numbers that it never really mattered. You'd always assume that you'd lose a model or two in CC to a powersword or a claw. The most important thing was always crossing the board without getting pummeled by small arms fire or the mass of non AP weapons, which we're now significantly weaker against. The entire chain leading up to the fight BA have taken a kick in the teeth.

To even get to the enemy you rely on 4+ cover and FnP, both of which are nerfed. Charge; now get shot by overwatch. Once in combat, only striking at I4, which means you'll hit at the same time as most of the other marine dexes and after some of the xenos ones. The jump pack assault will only work situationally (when you're basically 100% sure you'll make the charge).

The tradeoff for our codex is 35 point jump troops with a single wound, what a joke.

I agree with some of what you say, but a lot depends on local meta, cover never played that much of a roll for me because I fight a lot of either CC armies or hybrid CC/Ranged which means less shots on the approach but more power weapons fighting Eldar deathstar, D. Eldar incubi and the like. While DC are squishy they're all offense, which makes sense fluff wise but also if you toss them in a stormraven or other transport their low survivability for that point cost matters less.

Also the jump pack assault isn't for when you're 100% sure you'll make it since the jump pack assualt also allows you to reroll charge distance, while I don't recommend that you start trying for 11 or 12" charge ranges I don't think that an 8 inch charge range is that much of a gamble.

Again it's all based on local meta so it's hard to debate which one matters more, but I do agree that it's an overall nerf and a massive nerf in the shooting phase.

Gangrel767 wrote:

Stoffer wrote:FNP is definitely not buffed. The plasma and melta shots I could live with, not being able to shrug off small arms fire in large quantities is going to be awful. For example, you're going to get shredded attacking 30 boys with overwatch.

Really!? I mean 30 boys snapfiring on overwatch would yield approximately 5 hits (since they need 6's to hit on Overwatch), then they'd need 4+ to wound, so 2.5 wounds... of which you will fail .8333 of these saves and after FNP those 30 boys will inflict a total of .555 wounds.

I don't exactly see any shredding going on... unless you count the shredding those assault marines are going to do when they reach those boys.

Admittedly there are some things that could make those boys a little more dangerous. a template weapon or two giving out a few more autohits, or maybe an errant rocket is mixed in that overwatch, but the point is... 30 boys will not shred anything with overwatch fire, barring extremely unusual rolling.

Try 10 hits, 5 wounds. 30 shoota boys, 60 shots, 10 hits, 5 wounds.

However, DC went up and down in survivability. My personal philosophy when shooting at DC was always use guns that got rid of at least one save. Missile launchers against DC will give them only a 5+ cover save (if available) and thats rude. Rending guns will only leave them with 5+ FNP. S8 psy bolt auto cannons will only leave them with 3+ armor.

The point is, its been my experience that DC died to shooting not assault because they usually kill most everything they assault anyway. So because of that the FNP nerf to 5+ is a real hit, even if they can now take their FNP save vs. plasma shots.

if bomb squigs can really hit fliers on a 2+ then tank bustas suddenly became badass. and they have meltabombs .. albeit str6 not str 8

Awesome Christ wrote:

Stoffer wrote:

Awesome Christ wrote:

pretre wrote:I think it is a bigger deal that you can FNP power weapons.

That's fair, PW were one of my biggest banes previously so I can see why you'd say that. A 5+ save is not crazy good against it however (hence most people look down upon tactical termies) and it makes you weaker against all incoming fire on your way to that power weapon combat.

I'll need to play a few games and see how it all shakes out in the end, I'm not going to jump to any "The sky is falling" type conclusions. Hell even if there is a nerf there, the three units I wanted to field more got a buff(DC, SG, and Stormravens), so I'm happy.

As someone who's played a DOA list for a year, I completely disagree that power weapons are a big deal. Outside of GK, power weapons are available in such small numbers that it never really mattered. You'd always assume that you'd lose a model or two in CC to a powersword or a claw. The most important thing was always crossing the board without getting pummeled by small arms fire or the mass of non AP weapons, which we're now significantly weaker against. The entire chain leading up to the fight BA have taken a kick in the teeth.

To even get to the enemy you rely on 4+ cover and FnP, both of which are nerfed. Charge; now get shot by overwatch. Once in combat, only striking at I4, which means you'll hit at the same time as most of the other marine dexes and after some of the xenos ones. The jump pack assault will only work situationally (when you're basically 100% sure you'll make the charge).

The tradeoff for our codex is 35 point jump troops with a single wound, what a joke.

I agree with some of what you say, but a lot depends on local meta, cover never played that much of a roll for me because I fight a lot of either CC armies or hybrid CC/Ranged which means less shots on the approach but more power weapons fighting Eldar deathstar, D. Eldar incubi and the like. While DC are squishy they're all offense, which makes sense fluff wise but also if you toss them in a stormraven or other transport their low survivability for that point cost matters less.

Also the jump pack assault isn't for when you're 100% sure you'll make it since the jump pack assualt also allows you to reroll charge distance, while I don't recommend that you start trying for 11 or 12" charge ranges I don't think that an 8 inch charge range is that much of a gamble.

Again it's all based on local meta so it's hard to debate which one matters more, but I do agree that it's an overall nerf and a massive nerf in the shooting phase.

I might have misunderstood the jump pack thing?

You either:

Move 6 and assault 2d6 with the hammer attack

or

Move 12 and assault 6 inches without the special attack?

If that's the case then I'd definitely not try for the 12 inches on the first assault

Stoffer wrote:

I might have misunderstood the jump pack thing?

You either:

Move 6 and assault 2d6 with the hammer attack

or

Move 12 and assault 6 inches without the special attack?

If that's the case then I'd definitely not try for the 12 inches on the first assault

It's you either move 6 and assault 2D6 with a reroll,

Or you move 12 and charge 2D6 with no reroll or special attack. Because my primary delivery system is a storm raven I'll be moving with the raven and assaulting with JPs

Jayden63 wrote:Try 10 hits, 5 wounds. 30 shoota boys, 60 shots, 10 hits, 5 wounds.

ok you're right shoota boys would give 10 hits... and 5 wounds... BUT then power Armour saves .... 3.33 of those... , so 1.667 wounding hits... then, FNP ... so your right.. to 30 shoota boys.. 1.11 marine dies.. that is devastating.

Can anyone tell me how the master of the ravenwing in a landspeeder has faired in the new rules?

It has front and side armour 14 but rear 10. Still waiting on my rulebook

Stoffer wrote:

Kavish wrote:No more fast vehicles for BA! No joke.

In the FAQ it says you have to look in the rulebook for unit type and hull points. Check rulebook... Only dreads and Baal predator in BA section... refer to space marines section?!?!?(what else are we supposed to do?)

Hopefully this gets rectified in the rulebook FAQ 1.0.

Wait what? Where do you see that BA have no more fast vehicles?

In the FAQ it directs you to the rulebook reference section for unit types and hull points. Fast vehicle is a unit type. Since most BA vehicles are not actually mentioned in this section we can

a) use the normal space marine profiles

b) decide that BA vehicles don't have hull points or unit types (huh?)

c) decide that it's an oversight by the rulebook creators, (who clearly assumed that BA vehicles are the same as vanilla marines) and use the vanilla marine profiles and add unit type fast to rhino hulled vehicles.

I'm inclined to go with c) until they FAQ it. I wish the GW books where created by people who loved 40k as much as me. Then they wouldn't keep missing stuff like this.

Kavish wrote:

Stoffer wrote:

Kavish wrote:No more fast vehicles for BA! No joke.

In the FAQ it says you have to look in the rulebook for unit type and hull points. Check rulebook... Only dreads and Baal predator in BA section... refer to space marines section?!?!?(what else are we supposed to do?)

Hopefully this gets rectified in the rulebook FAQ 1.0.

Wait what? Where do you see that BA have no more fast vehicles?

In the FAQ it directs you to the rulebook reference section for unit types and hull points. Fast vehicle is a unit type. Since most BA vehicles are not actually mentioned in this section we can

a) use the normal space marine profiles

b) decide that BA vehicles don't have hull points or unit types (huh?)

c) decide that it's an oversight by the rulebook creators, (who clearly assumed that BA vehicles are the same as vanilla marines) and use the vanilla marine profiles and add unit type fast to rhino hulled vehicles.

I'm inclined to go with c) until they FAQ it. I wish the GW books where created by people who loved 40k as much as me. Then they wouldn't keep missing stuff like this.

Yeah, I just assumed that the rulebook wouldn't list racial variations specifically?

phantommaster wrote:Anybody noticed Vanguard Veterans can charge 12" after Deep Striking?

2d6 and reroll one. Deep Strkiing is also less deadly

Step aside Plague Marines, the Thousand Sons are back in business.

Exergy wrote:

phantommaster wrote:Anybody noticed Vanguard Veterans can charge 12" after Deep Striking?

2d6 and reroll one. Deep Strkiing is also less deadly

Actually, I'm pretty sure the reroll is removed because Heroic Intervention is FAQ'd as having used your jump pack that turn, so that's a bummer. But a BA VV is pretty damn good, getting 1d6 less for scatter and rerolling on reserves.

MandalorynOranj wrote:

DarthDiggler wrote:It's looking like Eldar are the most powerful codex right now. Not sure how long it will last though.

Vibro cannons inflict automatic glancing hits on every model in a 36" line. No Line of sight needed. 3 batteries of vibrocannons means three 36" lines of auto glancing to vehicles ( and a bunch of str 6 hits to non vehicles). Even flyers can't escape the line of glancing hits. Eldar should be able to wreck almost every enemy vehicle by turn 3. How do you not keep 2-3 vehicle out of a 36" line? It can't happen. All vehicles dead by turn 3 from three 150pt units.

Next Eldar excel at laying down huge amounts of fire into foot units. Warp spiders, dire avengers, even guardians will all get buffed with guide and the enemy will be hit with doom. This will force an obscene number of saves on the enemy foot units. Remember the Vibro cannons glanced all the vehicles to death already.

IMO Eldar need a new book and fast to keep them from just destroying 6th edition.

Are... are you being serious? Sure the vibro cannons got marginally better but almost everything else got nerfed. Yes I will probably bring my Warp Spiders back out but they're still incredibly squishy and will die to one turn of shooting, as will Avengers and Guardians, especially with the new reduced cover.

Our vehicles are just as susceptable to being glanced to death but our transports are two or three times as expensive as most other armies so it hurts a lot more.

There are 5 things in the whole book that will ignore 2+ armor in cc: the Avatar and the Wraithlord because they're MCs, Eldrad who shouldn't be in cc anyway, Yriel who is awesome and always has been, and a Striking Scorpions exarch with a claw. We're going to need to rely on masses of fire, expensive starcannons, or Fire Dragons to take out terminators more than ever.

T3 gets hurt a lot more by Overwatch than MEQs. Even if only 1 in 6 shots hit, it's easier to wound us and we usually have worse armor saves. Not being able to assault from stationary vehicles mean we have to endure an extra round of fire before getting into combat.

How exactly are Eldar now overpowered?

Don't forget Fuegan and Karandras for AP2 CCW's, although both are at I1

Stormrider wrote:

MandalorynOranj wrote:

DarthDiggler wrote:It's looking like Eldar are the most powerful codex right now. Not sure how long it will last though.

Vibro cannons inflict automatic glancing hits on every model in a 36" line. No Line of sight needed. 3 batteries of vibrocannons means three 36" lines of auto glancing to vehicles ( and a bunch of str 6 hits to non vehicles). Even flyers can't escape the line of glancing hits. Eldar should be able to wreck almost every enemy vehicle by turn 3. How do you not keep 2-3 vehicle out of a 36" line? It can't happen. All vehicles dead by turn 3 from three 150pt units.

Next Eldar excel at laying down huge amounts of fire into foot units. Warp spiders, dire avengers, even guardians will all get buffed with guide and the enemy will be hit with doom. This will force an obscene number of saves on the enemy foot units. Remember the Vibro cannons glanced all the vehicles to death already.

IMO Eldar need a new book and fast to keep them from just destroying 6th edition.

Are... are you being serious? Sure the vibro cannons got marginally better but almost everything else got nerfed. Yes I will probably bring my Warp Spiders back out but they're still incredibly squishy and will die to one turn of shooting, as will Avengers and Guardians, especially with the new reduced cover.

Our vehicles are just as susceptable to being glanced to death but our transports are two or three times as expensive as most other armies so it hurts a lot more.

There are 5 things in the whole book that will ignore 2+ armor in cc: the Avatar and the Wraithlord because they're MCs, Eldrad who shouldn't be in cc anyway, Yriel who is awesome and always has been, and a Striking Scorpions exarch with a claw. We're going to need to rely on masses of fire, expensive starcannons, or Fire Dragons to take out terminators more than ever.

T3 gets hurt a lot more by Overwatch than MEQs. Even if only 1 in 6 shots hit, it's easier to wound us and we usually have worse armor saves. Not being able to assault from stationary vehicles mean we have to endure an extra round of fire before getting into combat.

How exactly are Eldar now overpowered?

Don't forget Fuegan and Karandras for AP2 CCW's, although both are at I1

Yeah since then I also remembered Banshee exarchs can take mirrorswords which just "ignore armor." Same with Spider exarchs' powerblades.

I'm not saying they are perfect, but dakkajets and the other ork flierz seem better. flyin' all over the board with 3 TL supa-shootas pinning (hopefully) most units. Needen' 6s to shoot me down. This entire thought coming from an orkz perspective.

I think Orkz iz slowly takin' over Games Workshop. Deyz alreddy hidin' in da community.

Something that occurred to me for banshees is that conflicting rules that mod a stat to a fixed value roll off to see which applies. You could give banshees power axes, then each model would have a 50/50 chance of being I1 or I10. Risky but a better option then most books have for getting AP 2 in the fight.

DarbNilbirts wrote:Something that occurred to me for banshees is that conflicting rules that mod a stat to a fixed value roll off to see which applies. You could give banshees power axes, then each model would have a 50/50 chance of being I1 or I10. Risky but a better option then most books have for getting AP 2 in the fight.

the FAQed it in 5th that banshee masks overuled other wargear, like DE archangle of pain. In 6th though, who knows.

Don't know if anyone mentioned this already but CSM bikers with MoN. Maybe not AWESOME!!!! But a nuisance in their own right.

Look at the rules for unwieldy... I thought the same thing until I reread them. Unweildy does not care what your initiative stat is... and unfortunately the Banshee Mask alters your Initiative.

I don't think there is a roll off... I think the Mask loses this fight.

Stormrider wrote:
Don't forget Fuegan and Karandras for AP2 CCW's, although both are at I1

The Fire Axe is not a power axe.

It is a unique power weapon and would fall under the "AP 3 and use its special rules" rule, but then it's special rules already include "ignores armour saves".

Actually, the fire axe isn't a power weapon. It gives him ignore armor saves and roll 2d6 for pen.

pretre wrote:Actually, the fire axe isn't a power weapon. It gives him ignore armor saves and roll 2d6 for pen.

Which of course just made Fuegan the 20 yr old Pamela Anderson of 6th edition.









Sorry, first thing I thought of.

Gangrel767 wrote:Look at the rules for unwieldy... I thought the same thing until I reread them. Unweildy does not care what your initiative stat is... and unfortunately the Banshee Mask alters your Initiative.

I don't think there is a roll off... I think the Mask loses this fight.

The Rulebook says multiplier modifiers, then addition modifiers, then set modifiers. The Tyranid FAQ (Lash Whip) says in the case of multiple set modifiers, roll off.

But you're not competing with enemy gear, it's your own gear - are you gonna roll off against yourself? It's an unanswered question, but in many other cases when there is two options for yourself, you choose.

timetowaste85 wrote:

pretre wrote:Actually, the fire axe isn't a power weapon. It gives him ignore armor saves and roll 2d6 for pen.

Which of course just made Fuegan the 20 yr old Pamela Anderson of 6th edition.









Sorry, first thing I thought of.

LOL! That made my night... *whembly fires up google*

How are tactical terminators better? is it because they are the only ones that can rip through MEQ?

Aren't CC terminators even better for that with Vanilla marines with TH/SS?

Not exactly- AP3 is fine for MEq, and TH are Sloooooow. There's a good chance you lose 1 or 2 models before you get to swing, dropping a good 4 or so attacks somethimes.

Well in that case, wouldn't LC termi's take the cake for MEQ killing?

Yeah, a mix of LC and TH/SS Termies would be much better now than they were in 5th. I'm switching over my Termies to that config.

Why would you take LC Termies when they got nerfed?

Why wouldn't you take LC Termies when the majority of things that can kill them in combat strikes after them?

Because LC Termies can't ignore FNP and strike at a 2+ save against Terminator/Artificer/Mega Armour.

Because 40k is clearly all about silver bullet arguments.

TedNugent wrote:Because LC Termies can't ignore FNP and strike at a 2+ save against Terminator/Artificer/Mega Armour.

The discussion was against MEQ not TEQ...

Mix LC and Hammer/Shield.

The LCs clear up any MEQ or worse, and the Hammers finishes anything else off.

I'm thinking 6 Hammers 4 LCs atm.

My wolf guard termies have always been the following.

Arjac (TH/SS)
x2) twin LC
x1) chainfist/heavy flamer
x1) power weapon/stormbolter

This loadout has been able to chew through anything it touches. Whatever the lightning claws and power weapon didn't kill, Ajac mopped up.

Mixed terminators have always been good. Something SW and Chaos have always taken advantage of.

AresX8 wrote:Because 40k is clearly all about silver bullet arguments.

How is that a matter of silver bullet? You're the one arguing about what does better against MEQs that only have TEQ killing power at I1.

I'm telling you that TH/SS has a 3++ invul for anything that pierces his 2+. He has an AP2 weapon that also doubles as a concussive strength 8 AV weapon. He can safely engage any Monstrous Creature, which will be wounded on 2s and if it switches to smash will still have to contend with a 3++ invuln. TH/SS can instant kill ICs, Nobs, Paladins, and void all their Feel No Pain saves, meaning that TH/SS is better against Blood Angels. So think about that for a second, if a Meganob walks up to you with a 2+ save and no invuln and 2W, your TH/SS Termies can instant kill them for each wound inflicted with no armor save and wounding on 2's. Same with any Artificer HQ. They can also pierce Mephiston's armor save. They can also obliterate Dreadnoughts in CC.

And on and on.

The argument I'm making is not silver bullet, lol, the argument I'm making is for versatility.

Consider this - any MEQ is still going to be wounded on 2's and have its armor save ignored, plus if it has an FNP save it's now gone, and if they have Axes or Fists they're dealing with a 3+ invul instead of a 5+.

TH/SS are better against a much wider array of opponents and are much more versatile. You won't ever be caught with your pants down with a TH/SS Termie. Oh, and even if you come up against a squad of Ork Boyz, your TH/SS Terminator can challenge their Nob and either instagib him, thus winning the combat, or force him to hide out of combat, so TH/SS is even better against Ork Boy mobs too.

On an unrelated note, How has the Court of the Archon fared, in your eyes? With wounds being allocated from the front, that means you could have a Sslyth wedge in front of your Archon, negating the need for the Shadow Field and letting you take a Clone Field instead. Then, taking a Power Axe lets him deal with any terminators they feel the need to charge, while the rest of the group is full of meaty units that could clear a squad, and the Clone Field lets him stay in melee long enough to swing. Although I'll admit I'm not sure what the llameans will be doing other than light infantry cleanup. So take on less and attach and Eldar Warlock for some psyker shenanigans. Oh, and then there are the Medusae for some funny templates on overwatch/whatever.
It's an awfully expensive unit, but it's a lot more playable than it was in 5th with having to use the average of t3 and armor 5+. Suddenly awesome, or suddenly less terrible?

Ratlings have become rather good also all the flyers and longfangs as they can shoot everything

Crimson-King2120 wrote: longfangs

"Suddenly Awesome"?

DarknessEternal wrote:

Crimson-King2120 wrote: longfangs

"Suddenly Awesome"?

well more awesome than they were in 5th

I nominate Jump Pack Chaplains, 4 re-rollable krak grenade attacks (equivalent) on the charge against vehicles and you take melta bombs for the tanks that are rear armor 12+.

Winning

Still only get one grenade attack in melee per model.

DaddyWarcrimes wrote:Still only get one grenade attack in melee per model.

Which is why he said (equivalent), he's referring to the Crozius counting as a Power Maul.

Crimson-King2120 wrote:

DarknessEternal wrote:

Crimson-King2120 wrote: longfangs

"Suddenly Awesome"?

well more awesome than they were in 5th

They can move and shoot at BS1 which helps, but they don't get flakk missiles yet so they'll have trouble killing flyers.

Joe Mama wrote:Not a huge buff but if the rumors are true the GK Dreadknight got a decent buff in CC, considering it will get its 2+ save most of the time and potentially can challenge other characters.

And I heard that since Dread CCWs being 2x Strength no longer only applies to Vehicles a Dreadknight's strength is now 10 in Assault.

Joey wrote:BA just got knocked from top tier to mid tier.
FNP - nerfed
FC - nerfed
fast transports - nerfed
Note that jump troops only get the bonus attack if they did NOT use jump packs in the movement phase. You use them in movement or assault, not both.
They also strike at Initiative 4 and will lose any charge bonuses if they want to multi-charge.

The Fast Attack on Rhinos / Razorback nerf just dawned on me... the Amendment language and lack of Fast Attack Rhino / Razorback listed in the appendix baffles me.

I suppose the BA Razor Rampage is over... Hmm...

Wow...

I dunno, people on Dakka are saying to refer to the codex when it's not addressed, so I'll apply fast rules when possible (although I don't really spam rhinos or razors anyways, so it's not as big a blow to me)

BUT - BA will be great fun with this edition, their buffs can shape them into what they were likely more intended to be, focusing on jump infantry builds, and overall I have a feeling people may cry cheese less often.

You know, unless you field DC (people are apparently getting all up in arms about them), Mephiston, that sort of stuff. But I still think BA are an excellent army, and plenty people can still agree that they are still up there.

Yes, while they were nerfed, its not like they were nerfed to suck, rather they were nerfed to be more equal. I think most books got balanced out. Now will we have to try different tactics and army builds? Yes but that is what we expected from an edition shift. Honestly I am excited to see what my friends do with their armies now that they are bringing them out of retirement.

PrimarchX wrote:

Joe Mama wrote:Not a huge buff but if the rumors are true the GK Dreadknight got a decent buff in CC, considering it will get its 2+ save most of the time and potentially can challenge other characters.

And I heard that since Dread CCWs being 2x Strength no longer only applies to Vehicles a Dreadknight's strength is now 10 in Assault.

Ha ha, yes, I found out about this quite a bit after I posted that up there!

Titan Atlas wrote:I dunno, people on Dakka are saying to refer to the codex when it's not addressed, so I'll apply fast rules when possible (although I don't really spam rhinos or razors anyways, so it's not as big a blow to me)

BUT - BA will be great fun with this edition, their buffs can shape them into what they were likely more intended to be, focusing on jump infantry builds, and overall I have a feeling people may cry cheese less often.

You know, unless you field DC (people are apparently getting all up in arms about them), Mephiston, that sort of stuff. But I still think BA are an excellent army, and plenty people can still agree that they are still up there.

Yeah, I don't know... it has me a bit worried, I really liked the fast vehicles in the BA book... the FAQ Amendments section says to look to the BRB for a list of your UNIT TYPE and HULL POINTS... how can we justify using the Hull points listing listing for our vehicles found under space marines section, but ignoring that the same untis don't have FAST anymore... It seems like an error to me, especially when the book and fluff go on and on about the LR being the only vehicle the BA have not figured out how to make fast, and that's why it gets to Deep Strike.

perhaps we can hope for a second round of FAQ updates, maybe its just an omission accident...

Edit: Wrong thread?

Tactica wrote:
Yeah, I don't know... it has me a bit worried, I really liked the fast vehicles in the BA book... the FAQ Amendments section says to look to the BRB for a list of your UNIT TYPE and HULL POINTS... how can we justify using the Hull points listing listing for our vehicles found under space marines section, but ignoring that the same untis don't have FAST anymore... It seems like an error to me, especially when the book and fluff go on and on about the LR being the only vehicle the BA have not figured out how to make fast, and that's why it gets to Deep Strike.

perhaps we can hope for a second round of FAQ updates, maybe its just an omission accident...

Codex still trumps rulebook right? The baal predator is listed as fast, they just didnt give the general SM vehicles the blood angels use their own listing

Ascalam wrote:If you want to look at OP, look at 2+/3++/FNP T-hammer termies under the new rules.

They are damn near unkillable, barring MASSIVE wounds spamming.

Just like 5th ed for some people ?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

King Pariah wrote:Don't know if anyone mentioned this already but CSM bikers with MoN. Maybe not AWESOME!!!! But a nuisance in their own right.

As the owner of a daemon prince- T6 3+ ain't the bees knees.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

AresX8 wrote:Why wouldn't you take LC Termies when the majority of things that can kill them in combat strikes after them?

^ TH/SS+LC terminators. Instead of going "waaah AP3", AresX8 has put it into perspective, and is not crying out about the sky falling in.
Learn from him people

DarthDiggler wrote:It's looking like Eldar are the most powerful codex right now. Not sure how long it will last though.

Vibro cannons inflict automatic glancing hits on every model in a 36" line. No Line of sight needed. 3 batteries of vibrocannons means three 36" lines of auto glancing to vehicles ( and a bunch of str 6 hits to non vehicles). Even flyers can't escape the line of glancing hits. Eldar should be able to wreck almost every enemy vehicle by turn 3. How do you not keep 2-3 vehicle out of a 36" line? It can't happen. All vehicles dead by turn 3 from three 150pt units.

Next Eldar excel at laying down huge amounts of fire into foot units. Warp spiders, dire avengers, even guardians will all get buffed with guide and the enemy will be hit with doom. This will force an obscene number of saves on the enemy foot units. Remember the Vibro cannons glanced all the vehicles to death already.

IMO Eldar need a new book and fast to keep them from just destroying 6th edition.

You're reading the rules for Vibrocannon wrong and you misunderstand why they are suddenly useful.

Vibrocannons combine their shots. You get one single glancing hit per battery per vehicle. All you gain from buying more cannons is a higher likelihood of scoring a hit and higher strength against non-AV.

The reason they got useful, and I'm not saying good, is that they are now T7 3+ rather than AV10 (with a really bad damage table) and as such harder to kill. I'll let a rules lawyer say that they can't kill stuff out of sight, but there you go.

P.S. Doom got nerfed. Guide is pointless.

What about the Monolith? AV 14 and a +5 jink save.

"the building dodged again , sir..."

"Dammit, reload! "

Jihallah wrote:


Automatically Appended Next Post:

King Pariah wrote:Don't know if anyone mentioned this already but CSM bikers with MoN. Maybe not AWESOME!!!! But a nuisance in their own right.

As the owner of a daemon prince- T6 3+ ain't the bees knees.

Then again, what about an entire squad of Daemon Princes? Say, 7?

Mahtamori wrote:

DarthDiggler wrote:It's looking like Eldar are the most powerful codex right now. Not sure how long it will last though.

Vibro cannons inflict automatic glancing hits on every model in a 36" line. No Line of sight needed. 3 batteries of vibrocannons means three 36" lines of auto glancing to vehicles ( and a bunch of str 6 hits to non vehicles). Even flyers can't escape the line of glancing hits. Eldar should be able to wreck almost every enemy vehicle by turn 3. How do you not keep 2-3 vehicle out of a 36" line? It can't happen. All vehicles dead by turn 3 from three 150pt units.

Next Eldar excel at laying down huge amounts of fire into foot units. Warp spiders, dire avengers, even guardians will all get buffed with guide and the enemy will be hit with doom. This will force an obscene number of saves on the enemy foot units. Remember the Vibro cannons glanced all the vehicles to death already.

IMO Eldar need a new book and fast to keep them from just destroying 6th edition.

You're reading the rules for Vibrocannon wrong and you misunderstand why they are suddenly useful.

Vibrocannons combine their shots. You get one single glancing hit per battery per vehicle. All you gain from buying more cannons is a higher likelihood of scoring a hit and higher strength against non-AV.

The reason they got useful, and I'm not saying good, is that they are now T7 3+ rather than AV10 (with a really bad damage table) and as such harder to kill. I'll let a rules lawyer say that they can't kill stuff out of sight, but there you go.

P.S. Doom got nerfed. Guide is pointless.

I get why Guide is pointless because the primaris power for Divination is just Guide with double the range, but how exactly did Doom get nerfed aside from the slight chance to have it Deny the Witch'd?

Guide is guaranteed, where-as Divination's is random (but swappable).

MandalorynOranj wrote:

Mahtamori wrote:

DarthDiggler wrote:It's looking like Eldar are the most powerful codex right now. Not sure how long it will last though.

Vibro cannons inflict automatic glancing hits on every model in a 36" line. No Line of sight needed. 3 batteries of vibrocannons means three 36" lines of auto glancing to vehicles ( and a bunch of str 6 hits to non vehicles). Even flyers can't escape the line of glancing hits. Eldar should be able to wreck almost every enemy vehicle by turn 3. How do you not keep 2-3 vehicle out of a 36" line? It can't happen. All vehicles dead by turn 3 from three 150pt units.

Next Eldar excel at laying down huge amounts of fire into foot units. Warp spiders, dire avengers, even guardians will all get buffed with guide and the enemy will be hit with doom. This will force an obscene number of saves on the enemy foot units. Remember the Vibro cannons glanced all the vehicles to death already.

IMO Eldar need a new book and fast to keep them from just destroying 6th edition.

You're reading the rules for Vibrocannon wrong and you misunderstand why they are suddenly useful.

Vibrocannons combine their shots. You get one single glancing hit per battery per vehicle. All you gain from buying more cannons is a higher likelihood of scoring a hit and higher strength against non-AV.

The reason they got useful, and I'm not saying good, is that they are now T7 3+ rather than AV10 (with a really bad damage table) and as such harder to kill. I'll let a rules lawyer say that they can't kill stuff out of sight, but there you go.

P.S. Doom got nerfed. Guide is pointless.

I get why Guide is pointless because the primaris power for Divination is just Guide with double the range, but how exactly did Doom get nerfed aside from the slight chance to have it Deny the Witch'd?

Your Farseer has to be out in the open and have LOS to see their target for Doom. Farseers aren't durable in the open.

Stormrider wrote:

MandalorynOranj wrote:

Mahtamori wrote:

DarthDiggler wrote:It's looking like Eldar are the most powerful codex right now. Not sure how long it will last though.

Vibro cannons inflict automatic glancing hits on every model in a 36" line. No Line of sight needed. 3 batteries of vibrocannons means three 36" lines of auto glancing to vehicles ( and a bunch of str 6 hits to non vehicles). Even flyers can't escape the line of glancing hits. Eldar should be able to wreck almost every enemy vehicle by turn 3. How do you not keep 2-3 vehicle out of a 36" line? It can't happen. All vehicles dead by turn 3 from three 150pt units.

Next Eldar excel at laying down huge amounts of fire into foot units. Warp spiders, dire avengers, even guardians will all get buffed with guide and the enemy will be hit with doom. This will force an obscene number of saves on the enemy foot units. Remember the Vibro cannons glanced all the vehicles to death already.

IMO Eldar need a new book and fast to keep them from just destroying 6th edition.

You're reading the rules for Vibrocannon wrong and you misunderstand why they are suddenly useful.

Vibrocannons combine their shots. You get one single glancing hit per battery per vehicle. All you gain from buying more cannons is a higher likelihood of scoring a hit and higher strength against non-AV.

The reason they got useful, and I'm not saying good, is that they are now T7 3+ rather than AV10 (with a really bad damage table) and as such harder to kill. I'll let a rules lawyer say that they can't kill stuff out of sight, but there you go.

P.S. Doom got nerfed. Guide is pointless.

I get why Guide is pointless because the primaris power for Divination is just Guide with double the range, but how exactly did Doom get nerfed aside from the slight chance to have it Deny the Witch'd?

Your Farseer has to be out in the open and have LOS to see their target for Doom. Farseers aren't durable in the open.

The codex still says that they don't need line of sight, so the rulebook shouldn't overrule that.

I think Ironclad Drednaughts will see more play with the preponderence of fortifications. Drop Pod for accuracy and big fella gets in there with his hammer or chainfist and destroys bastions with impunity. Heavy Flamers do nasty work to hiding infantry and the seismic hammer is awesome at cracking open vehicles too with it's +2 modifier.

Anything with a 2+ save.
Plague Marines, Nugle and high toughness stuff in general
Tau
Grey Knights
'Crons

MandalorynOranj wrote:
I get why Guide is pointless because the primaris power for Divination is just Guide with double the range, but how exactly did Doom get nerfed aside from the slight chance to have it Deny the Witch'd?

Also note, the Divination power is "to-hit rolls" not "shooting to-hit rolls".

Joe Mama wrote:

PrimarchX wrote:

Joe Mama wrote:Not a huge buff but if the rumors are true the GK Dreadknight got a decent buff in CC, considering it will get its 2+ save most of the time and potentially can challenge other characters.

And I heard that since Dread CCWs being 2x Strength no longer only applies to Vehicles a Dreadknight's strength is now 10 in Assault.

Ha ha, yes, I found out about this quite a bit after I posted that up there!

The biggest buff to Dreadknights, in my humble opinion, is that they move like jump units. As a user of DKs, their biggest problem was getting where they needed to be, especially after their one-off 30" shunt. Any vehicle within an 18" radius is in very dangerous territory; let alone any nearby infantry which due to the rules of Heavy Incinerator placement are going to be toasted just before the vehicle gets crumped.

DarknessEternal wrote:

MandalorynOranj wrote:
I get why Guide is pointless because the primaris power for Divination is just Guide with double the range, but how exactly did Doom get nerfed aside from the slight chance to have it Deny the Witch'd?

Also note, the Divination power is "to-hit rolls" not "shooting to-hit rolls".

Ooh that's true, didn't notice that. Although you do need LoS to use that while you still don't for the codex Guide. The rulebook one still wins out, though.

It's been said before, it'll be said again, but Necron Warriors. Rapid fire is better and glancing is better- both things Necron Warriors excel at.

Stormrider wrote:

MandalorynOranj wrote:

Mahtamori wrote:

DarthDiggler wrote:It's looking like Eldar are the most powerful codex right now. Not sure how long it will last though.

Vibro cannons inflict automatic glancing hits on every model in a 36" line. No Line of sight needed. 3 batteries of vibrocannons means three 36" lines of auto glancing to vehicles ( and a bunch of str 6 hits to non vehicles). Even flyers can't escape the line of glancing hits. Eldar should be able to wreck almost every enemy vehicle by turn 3. How do you not keep 2-3 vehicle out of a 36" line? It can't happen. All vehicles dead by turn 3 from three 150pt units.

Next Eldar excel at laying down huge amounts of fire into foot units. Warp spiders, dire avengers, even guardians will all get buffed with guide and the enemy will be hit with doom. This will force an obscene number of saves on the enemy foot units. Remember the Vibro cannons glanced all the vehicles to death already.

IMO Eldar need a new book and fast to keep them from just destroying 6th edition.

You're reading the rules for Vibrocannon wrong and you misunderstand why they are suddenly useful.

Vibrocannons combine their shots. You get one single glancing hit per battery per vehicle. All you gain from buying more cannons is a higher likelihood of scoring a hit and higher strength against non-AV.

The reason they got useful, and I'm not saying good, is that they are now T7 3+ rather than AV10 (with a really bad damage table) and as such harder to kill. I'll let a rules lawyer say that they can't kill stuff out of sight, but there you go.

P.S. Doom got nerfed. Guide is pointless.

I get why Guide is pointless because the primaris power for Divination is just Guide with double the range, but how exactly did Doom get nerfed aside from the slight chance to have it Deny the Witch'd?

Your Farseer has to be out in the open and have LOS to see their target for Doom. Farseers aren't durable in the open.

They are durable when attached to heavy infantry like wraith guard or grotesques.

Land speeder squadrons. Take two with the weapons you want. The other one is bare bones. Move em so they have get a 5+ save. Have the cheapest one be the closest and flat out each turn giving it a 4+ save. Squadron will put out the hurt. worth it over attack bikes now

Melta vets were already awesome in 5th ed, but demo doctrine aka demo vets were debatable. Suddenly in 6th ed all of the sudden demo vets have suddenly found themselves able to tearing apart MC and Dreads with 3 attacks or less.

10 GEQ with melta bombs>Psyflemen, 2 attack dreads with a DCCW, tomb spyders, wraithlords, mawlocks, Tfex, tervigons, and killa kans.

My new 6th ed goal is to destroy Bjorn the fell handed in CC with traitor guardsmen.

Stormtalon, from being a fat land speeder with no real role, to being great flying fire support!

Also, every other flier.

Fliers in all aspects and terminators are really going to feel like.. well "terminators".

Eldar Fire Prisms, Falcons, and Vypers, Buffed n/ nerfed all the same. Prism Cannon's small template shot has Ap2 (+1 to the damage table) and no half strength on vehicles anymore. Falcons and Vypers can fire 2 weapons at 12", meaning more movement for gunboating. All the Fast Skimmers gain an additional 6" movement for flatout movement, not to mention Jink, with a 5+ save always, 4+ for flat out movement.

Nerfed slightly by vehicle damage rules, but it's a tradeoff I'll take - I seriously prefer being able to take 1 or 2 glancing hits and still get to shoot full force next turn. And being able to Snapfire on Shaken/Stunned is awesome, too, little to prevent not firing a weapon (minus the Prism Cannon). Really, I still feel the vehicles are overall better and more effective.

evildrspock wrote:Eldar Fire Prisms, Falcons, and Vypers, Buffed n/ nerfed all the same. Prism Cannon's small template shot has Ap2 (+1 to the damage table) and no half strength on vehicles anymore. Falcons and Vypers can fire 2 weapons at 12", meaning more movement for gunboating. All the Fast Skimmers gain an additional 6" movement for flatout movement, not to mention Jink, with a 5+ save always, 4+ for flat out movement.

Nerfed slightly by vehicle damage rules, but it's a tradeoff I'll take - I seriously prefer being able to take 1 or 2 glancing hits and still get to shoot full force next turn. And being able to Snapfire on Shaken/Stunned is awesome, too, little to prevent not firing a weapon (minus the Prism Cannon). Really, I still feel the vehicles are overall better and more effective.

Moreover, spirit stones for Eldar vehicles less useful than in the 5th ed. I'll leave them home from now on.

The same holds for extra armor.

wuestenfux wrote:

evildrspock wrote:Eldar Fire Prisms, Falcons, and Vypers, Buffed n/ nerfed all the same. Prism Cannon's small template shot has Ap2 (+1 to the damage table) and no half strength on vehicles anymore. Falcons and Vypers can fire 2 weapons at 12", meaning more movement for gunboating. All the Fast Skimmers gain an additional 6" movement for flatout movement, not to mention Jink, with a 5+ save always, 4+ for flat out movement.

Nerfed slightly by vehicle damage rules, but it's a tradeoff I'll take - I seriously prefer being able to take 1 or 2 glancing hits and still get to shoot full force next turn. And being able to Snapfire on Shaken/Stunned is awesome, too, little to prevent not firing a weapon (minus the Prism Cannon). Really, I still feel the vehicles are overall better and more effective.

Moreover, spirit stones for Eldar vehicles less useful than in the 5th ed. I'll leave them home from now on.

The same holds for extra armor.

This is a good thing, upgrades for free always is. Another thing I'm not sure on are Star Engines. The FAQ has a new entry concerning Star Engines, but it is not clear if we can use Star engines and Flat out movement or not.

In general Eldar Vehicle upgrades are far less worthwhile. Vectored Engines are still a decent upgrade (I guess really as useful as Spirit Stones), although once again the likelihood of getting immobilized is much smaller now, as glancing don't care. They could keep the current upgrades but lower the costs to represent their drop in usefulness. I predict HP defensive upgrades in the new codexes to come.

wuestenfux wrote:

evildrspock wrote:Eldar Fire Prisms, Falcons, and Vypers, Buffed n/ nerfed all the same. Prism Cannon's small template shot has Ap2 (+1 to the damage table) and no half strength on vehicles anymore. Falcons and Vypers can fire 2 weapons at 12", meaning more movement for gunboating. All the Fast Skimmers gain an additional 6" movement for flatout movement, not to mention Jink, with a 5+ save always, 4+ for flat out movement.

Nerfed slightly by vehicle damage rules, but it's a tradeoff I'll take - I seriously prefer being able to take 1 or 2 glancing hits and still get to shoot full force next turn. And being able to Snapfire on Shaken/Stunned is awesome, too, little to prevent not firing a weapon (minus the Prism Cannon). Really, I still feel the vehicles are overall better and more effective.

Moreover, spirit stones for Eldar vehicles less useful than in the 5th ed. I'll leave them home from now on.

The same holds for extra armor.

Yeah, Spirit Stones were my must have upgrade in 5th. Now I'll stay way away from them. Same with holofields. I still can't get past 3+ to hit in CC. I wholeheartedly hate this rule in my meele-centered environment.
But this topic is about awesome units. I'm excited about our fast attack options. They are not top-notch but they went significantly up in relative power. Viper squadrons are still as fragile as ever, but now they are more mobile and can bring more pain to other targets. Warp Spiders are a very cool idea fluff-wise and now a decent units. Really bummed about Hawks still being bad, a little less so, however.

Gangrel767 wrote:
A unit of 10 Warriors rapid firing is 20 shots, of which approx 13.33 will hit. This leaves 2.22 glancing hits form 10 warriors. Still good, but not vehicle eating.

I know this is the standard way that people do math hammer, but it's wrong. The right way to do it, would be to figure out the probability that ONE shot would cause a glance (which you did correctly) and then compute the binomial distribution using excel or a graphic calculator. Specifically, asking what the probability that you will get at least three glances from a unit of 10 Necron warriors who rapid fire at BS4 is the same as asking, "What is the probability of achieving at least 3 successes in 20 trials (with replacement) if the probability of success for each trial is 1/9 = 11.11%?"

The answer is 38.66%. That's the probability that a squad of 10 necron warriors with 12" of your rhino will destroy it in one round of shooting. Considering that the chances that a single twin linked lascannon will destroy that same rhino in one shot is only 19.75%, I'd say the necrons are doing pretty damn well.

This isn't a "suddenly" awesome unit - it's always been powerful. However, the Doom of Malan'Tai just got a little more ridiculous.

1. Tyranids now have an easy way to give the Doom of Malan'Tai Eternal Warrior (Endurance).

2. Wounds no longer cap at 10

So a 20 wound model with a 3++/5++, plus Eternal Warrior, plus strength 10....for 90 points? Oh, and he's even easier to place now that he can disembark anywhere within 6" of his spore pod.

Siphen wrote:This isn't a "suddenly" awesome unit - it's always been powerful. However, the Doom of Malan'Tai just got a little more ridiculous.

1. Tyranids now have an easy way to give the Doom of Malan'Tai Eternal Warrior (Endurance).

2. Wounds no longer cap at 10

So a 20 wound model with a 3++/5++, plus Eternal Warrior, plus strength 10....for 90 points? Oh, and he's even easier to place now that he can disembark anywhere within 6" of his spore pod.

You're thinking of Iron Arm, not Endurance. Still, that's going to be scary, assuming you don't have any way of stopping the power (i.e. you don't play Eldar/Space Wolves/'Nids).

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

Siphen wrote:This isn't a "suddenly" awesome unit - it's always been powerful. However, the Doom of Malan'Tai just got a little more ridiculous.

1. Tyranids now have an easy way to give the Doom of Malan'Tai Eternal Warrior (Endurance).

2. Wounds no longer cap at 10

So a 20 wound model with a 3++/5++, plus Eternal Warrior, plus strength 10....for 90 points? Oh, and he's even easier to place now that he can disembark anywhere within 6" of his spore pod.

You're thinking of Iron Arm, not Endurance. Still, that's going to be scary, assuming you don't have any way of stopping the power (i.e. you don't play Eldar/Space Wolves/'Nids).

Actually, every unit now has a 6+ "Deny the Witch" roll. I can't remember if that works on buffs though.

Grugknuckle wrote:

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

Siphen wrote:This isn't a "suddenly" awesome unit - it's always been powerful. However, the Doom of Malan'Tai just got a little more ridiculous.

1. Tyranids now have an easy way to give the Doom of Malan'Tai Eternal Warrior (Endurance).

2. Wounds no longer cap at 10

So a 20 wound model with a 3++/5++, plus Eternal Warrior, plus strength 10....for 90 points? Oh, and he's even easier to place now that he can disembark anywhere within 6" of his spore pod.

You're thinking of Iron Arm, not Endurance. Still, that's going to be scary, assuming you don't have any way of stopping the power (i.e. you don't play Eldar/Space Wolves/'Nids).

Actually, every unit now has a 6+ "Deny the Witch" roll. I can't remember if that works on buffs though.

Except that doesn't work. The Doom of Malan'tai's rules specifically cap it at 10 wounds. Iron Arm can only be cast on the psyker that has it, and the Doom only gets one psychic power. Would you like to trade your large blast for a 1/6 chance of eternal warrior? You can cast relentless on him for FNP, but the T4 works against you there.

After playing a game, C:SM got pretty good.

* Since you can now regroup with 6" of someone, ATSKNF and combat tactics are much better. Anytime your stuck facing something that you don't want to be engaged with, just fall back and shoot them in the face.

* C:SM get stormtalons. Right now all fliers are very powerful, and being able to bring 3 of them is strong.

* TH/SS termies just got twice as good vs enemies. The sergeant can challenge a PW wielding enemy and has a good chance of sending them off to meet their maker. (depending on the IC of course)

* TAC squads got better with rapid fire changes

* TAC squads can now keep the heavy weapon still and move the rest of the squad, allowing everyone to shoot at full BS.

labmouse42 wrote:After playing a game, C:SM got pretty good.

* Since you can now regroup with 6" of someone, ATSKNF and combat tactics are much better. Anytime your stuck facing something that you don't want to be engaged with, just fall back and shoot them in the face.

o_O ... totally didn't see that. Awesome! For all units, really. Chasing tactics got silly if you ran terminators off the board.

Siphen wrote:This isn't a "suddenly" awesome unit - it's always been powerful. However, the Doom of Malan'Tai just got a little more ridiculous.

1. Tyranids now have an easy way to give the Doom of Malan'Tai Eternal Warrior (Endurance).

2. Wounds no longer cap at 10

So a 20 wound model with a 3++/5++, plus Eternal Warrior, plus strength 10....for 90 points? Oh, and he's even easier to place now that he can disembark anywhere within 6" of his spore pod.

1/6 chance of getting it. Doom only has 1 power and only gets 1 power.

Plague marines allied with Epidemius is just sick and wrong, especially against horde armies where they can get their 20 kills pretty quickly.

Siphen wrote:Oh, and he's even easier to place now that he can disembark anywhere within 6" of his spore pod.

And he can only disembark 2" - the spore isn't a transport vehicle, it just has similar traits. The codex restricts it to 2" still.

But yeah - I'd trade in the large blast. I've rarely ever had it actually do anything with my fail rolls. It either scatters off into nothingness (and I take 2-3 wounds) or I fail to wound/pen (and I take 2-3 wounds).

a little late, but I thought I'd share:

-a Destroyer Lord attached to a D&D Squad (unit of Deathmarks+Harbinger of Despair) will give them all Preferred Enemy.
-Against an enemy marked with Hunters from Hyperspace, that unit will wound on anything but a 1.
-However, if they roll a 1, because they now have PE, they would reroll that 1.

Therefore,

Deathmarks
+
Harbinger of Despair
+
Destroyer Lord
=
a deathstar that auto-hits and now (practically) auto-wounds any one infantry unit in the game.

schadenfreude wrote:Melta vets were already awesome in 5th ed, but demo doctrine aka demo vets were debatable. Suddenly in 6th ed all of the sudden demo vets have suddenly found themselves able to tearing apart MC and Dreads with 3 attacks or less.

10 GEQ with melta bombs>Psyflemen, 2 attack dreads with a DCCW, tomb spyders, wraithlords, mawlocks, Tfex, tervigons, and killa kans.

My new 6th ed goal is to destroy Bjorn the fell handed in CC with traitor guardsmen.

Wow, I hadn't really looked at this! I was in the camp that split up infantry paltoons might be the way to go now considering you are only punised for kill points in 1/6th of the games. I was having trouble across my armies finding melta bombs and apparently they were right under my nose.

Suddenly awesome: The Devil Dog. Meltacannon now only needs to touch enemy tanks to bring the pain train.
Manticore, been said over and over but its so good now.
Chaos Terminators (while we have them!) Giving them Power Axes to some guys, Mauls to others for no additional cost is nice, but coming in at 30pts a piece then being able to add a reaper autocannon AND upgrade him to a character allows you to snipe on 6's and LOS when he gets shot. I love Chaos Terminators now and will continue to love them for the next month.

Brymm wrote:

schadenfreude wrote:Melta vets were already awesome in 5th ed, but demo doctrine aka demo vets were debatable. Suddenly in 6th ed all of the sudden demo vets have suddenly found themselves able to tearing apart MC and Dreads with 3 attacks or less.

10 GEQ with melta bombs>Psyflemen, 2 attack dreads with a DCCW, tomb spyders, wraithlords, mawlocks, Tfex, tervigons, and killa kans.

My new 6th ed goal is to destroy Bjorn the fell handed in CC with traitor guardsmen.

Wow, I hadn't really looked at this! I was in the camp that split up infantry paltoons might be the way to go now considering you are only punised for kill points in 1/6th of the games. I was having trouble across my armies finding melta bombs and apparently they were right under my nose.

Can either of you elaborate on how melta-bombs have gotten better? As far as I can see they got worse since they now make you strike at I1. The only benefits I see are being able to use them against MCs and being able to hit on normal WS instead of 6s. However, these are both countered by the fact that being I1 means you'll probably not be able to get off any attacks.

I personally, took demolitions for the demo-charge. So many times when the unit won their points back with one weapon.

I was just reminded. Chaos Termies are now moving towards the leagues of Paladins and Nobz, in that they can all be upgraded to Champions, and all the Champions are Characters. Chaos is among the rare few Codii that can have all character squads.

acekevin8412 wrote:

Brymm wrote:

schadenfreude wrote:Melta vets were already awesome in 5th ed, but demo doctrine aka demo vets were debatable. Suddenly in 6th ed all of the sudden demo vets have suddenly found themselves able to tearing apart MC and Dreads with 3 attacks or less.

10 GEQ with melta bombs>Psyflemen, 2 attack dreads with a DCCW, tomb spyders, wraithlords, mawlocks, Tfex, tervigons, and killa kans.

My new 6th ed goal is to destroy Bjorn the fell handed in CC with traitor guardsmen.

Wow, I hadn't really looked at this! I was in the camp that split up infantry paltoons might be the way to go now considering you are only punised for kill points in 1/6th of the games. I was having trouble across my armies finding melta bombs and apparently they were right under my nose.

Can either of you elaborate on how melta-bombs have gotten better? As far as I can see they got worse since they now make you strike at I1. The only benefits I see are being able to use them against MCs and being able to hit on normal WS instead of 6s. However, these are both countered by the fact that being I1 means you'll probably not be able to get off any attacks.

I personally, took demolitions for the demo-charge. So many times when the unit won their points back with one weapon.

10 guardsman charge a MC. The MC strikes on I4 with 6 attacks as ws5, 4 hits, and 4 dead guardsmen. The MC already swung, do you want the 6 remaining vets to now hit on I3 on a 6+ or on I1 with a 4+?

Makes an even larger difference if it's a dread with a CCW for 3 attacks at WS4 on I4

I3 v I1 makes a larger difference on I2 and I3 MC, but they tend to be MC like tomb spyders, tervigons, or Tfex. I'll take 3 to 6 swings at I2 or I3 WS3, it's going to average 1.5 to 3 hits that kill on a 5+. IMO 7 vets hitting on a 4+ is better than 10 vets hitting on a 6+. Math hammer says 3 vets hitting on a 4+ is better than 10 vets hitting on a 6+


Automatically Appended Next Post:
On another topic flamers of Tzeentch and screamers of Tzeench are now top tier units.

Meh...Fair enough, I guess. Math hammer proves me wrong.

Buy ALL THE Flamers and Screamers

Also if the Defiler rumours are true then they'll be very popular

4 Hull points
Move and fire Ordnance and Snap shot other weapons
CC Reroll to wound and armour pens
Daemon - 5++, Fear
It Will Not Die - Regain HP on 5+ each turn
Daemonic Possession - Regen destroyed weapons and ignore Shaken/Stunned
Fleet

Artanis wrote:Buy ALL THE Flamers and Screamers

Also if the Defiler rumours are true then they'll be very popular

4 Hull points
Move and fire Ordnance and Snap shot other weapons
CC Reroll to wound and armour pens
Daemon - 5++, Fear
It Will Not Die - Regain HP on 5+ each turn
Daemonic Possession - Regen destroyed weapons and ignore Shaken/Stunned
Fleet

4 Hull points=meh nothing new. At AV12 I'm more worried about it blowing up.
Move and fire Ordnance and Snap shot other weapons=Nothing really gained or lost from 5th ed, I tend to run quad CCW anyways.
CC Reroll to wound and armour pens=woot, you have my attention. I liked my defler even without those.
Daemon - 5++, Fear= meh, it's nice but it's also easy to get a 4+ cover in 6th
It Will Not Die - Regain HP on 5+ each turn= Wow, a solid unit is now fantastic.
Daemonic Possession = Regen destroyed weapons and ignore Shaken/Stunned=good, but great when combined with it will not die.
Fleet= meh, I"m still fixated on all that other great stuff.

Anvildude wrote:I was just reminded. Chaos Termies are now moving towards the leagues of Paladins and Nobz, in that they can all be upgraded to Champions, and all the Champions are Characters. Chaos is among the rare few Codii that can have all character squads.

Chaos Terminators don't have 2 wounds each though. That's the real kicker for Nobz and Paladins; precision strikes are just a welcome bonus.

acekevin8412 wrote:

Brymm wrote:

schadenfreude wrote:Melta vets were already awesome in 5th ed, but demo doctrine aka demo vets were debatable. Suddenly in 6th ed all of the sudden demo vets have suddenly found themselves able to tearing apart MC and Dreads with 3 attacks or less.

10 GEQ with melta bombs>Psyflemen, 2 attack dreads with a DCCW, tomb spyders, wraithlords, mawlocks, Tfex, tervigons, and killa kans.

My new 6th ed goal is to destroy Bjorn the fell handed in CC with traitor guardsmen.

Wow, I hadn't really looked at this! I was in the camp that split up infantry paltoons might be the way to go now considering you are only punised for kill points in 1/6th of the games. I was having trouble across my armies finding melta bombs and apparently they were right under my nose.

Can either of you elaborate on how melta-bombs have gotten better? As far as I can see they got worse since they now make you strike at I1. The only benefits I see are being able to use them against MCs and being able to hit on normal WS instead of 6s. However, these are both countered by the fact that being I1 means you'll probably not be able to get off any attacks.

I personally, took demolitions for the demo-charge. So many times when the unit won their points back with one weapon.

they now hit any vehicle on 3+ instead of needing 6s when it moved fast.
hitting dreads on WS means they at most need 4+ instead of 6s.
So they are between 3 and 4 times as effective. Striking at I1 doesnt matter for guard, as they strike after SM anyway.