They just seem like a cheesy snipe/negate attempt that will benefit certain armies (anyone with high initiative) while hurting others. For example: Trazyn the Infinite's Empathic Obliterator can deal a lot of wounds at the end of combat, but only to units of the same name as one he killed. If he's locked in a challenge and manages to win, it essentially gets to do nothing unless he's being attacked by a mob of like named characters. Another example is how hidden power fists/claws are now easy to keep out of a fight. A Hive Tyrant can now charge the group of 30 boys+1 Nob and issue a challange. Accept=dead nob with no power claw attacks. Decline=no power claw attacks and lots of dead boys. The challenge can even be issued every turn to keep the targeted character inactive.
Worst of all, a lone character can charge, win a challenge, and sweeping advance the rest of the squad.
All these can be annoying, kind of cheesy, but is that really a reason to hate them? For those reasons alone, no. Plenty of odd, cheesy stuff existed before and will continue to exist. The primary reason for Challenges to garner my hate is the lack of a proper defense. Either accept the Challenge or lose everything. This would have been the perfect place for a leadership test. Any good commander knows a battlefield is no place for a duel. Any good rampaging horde will ignore the guy yammering upfront and overrun him.
I'll certainly be happy to house rule it out with my friends, but I don't look forward to this new, easily abused cheese popping up in tournament/league play. Anyone else feel similar?
It would make sense for Tyranids to ignore challenges, I mean they just wouldn't care. Although if I understand it right the Lash Whip Hive Tyrant will do well in challenges.
It is probably designed to make fighty heroes more viable, as much in defense as offense. Might mean we see more space marine captains / ork warbosses wandering around rather than their librarian / big mek counterparts?
Hidden PFists have been way to strong for way too long. They are the very reason for the Eternal Warrior balancing act we've been dealing with since 4th. Dante shouldn't die horribly to some random bitch with a PFist. Really all the CC beat stick characters are much more viable now, where for the whole of 5th they took a clear back seat to squad/force multiplier characters.
Sigvatr wrote:Noone takes Trazyn for his cc powers anyway...no power weapon = full armor save = might just take another model that actually proves useful.
Also..eh...Necrons REALLY should not complain. Our Overlords are S7, ignore any armor save and have MSS that totally rape face.
Challenges are not directed anyways. Once a challenge is issued any character in Trazyn's unit can accept the challenge, so a MSS/war scythe lord attached to the unit can accept can accept while Trazen dumps his attacks into the unit. With MSS necrons should be the last army out there complaining about challenges.
LOL. Hadn't even thought about poor, old Dante. So much for DoA lists. Dante will be shelved just like a lot of powerklaw nobz and power fist sergeants.
I play necrons, mss on my Lords of course...I think it's broke and just evil...gonna see how this plays with by buddy, if it's as lame as we think it'll be...HOUSE RULE!
Arschbombe wrote:LOL. Hadn't even thought about poor, old Dante. So much for DoA lists. Dante will be shelved just like a lot of powerklaw nobz and power fist sergeants.
Why should we shelf PK nobz? Unless you are wielding a powerfist yourself, they aren't exactly easy to kill for your usual squad leader.
DPBellathrom wrote:well, at first I was like "wooooo mephiston will own in challenges"
then I was all like "what do you mean force weapons aren't power weapons -.-"
looks like 6thed is already messing people's armies up big time :/
There are now three types of Force Weapons
Force Swords which are Power Swords with Force
Force Axes are Power Axes with Force
Force Staves are Power Mauls with Force
With the challenge, you either let the opponent direct his character's attacks at your nob directly, or your nob doesn't fight. Most characters are going to be able to fight before the nob and have a good chance of killing him before he gets to do anything. It inverts the situation we had in 5th where the nob was protected by his boyz and then able to attack to full effect.
So you're comparing a squad leader to an army leaders and saying the army leader is winning?
Duh.
Put a warboss in with the nob, and let the nob soak the challenge. Warboss goes to town.
Fafnir13 wrote:They just seem like a cheesy snipe/negate attempt that will benefit certain armies (anyone with high initiative) while hurting others. For example: Trazyn the Infinite's Empathic Obliterator can deal a lot of wounds at the end of combat, but only to units of the same name as one he killed. If he's locked in a challenge and manages to win, it essentially gets to do nothing unless he's being attacked by a mob of like named characters. Another example is how hidden power fists/claws are now easy to keep out of a fight. A Hive Tyrant can now charge the group of 30 boys+1 Nob and issue a challange. Accept=dead nob with no power claw attacks. Decline=no power claw attacks and lots of dead boys. The challenge can even be issued every turn to keep the targeted character inactive.
Worst of all, a lone character can charge, win a challenge, and sweeping advance the rest of the squad.
All these can be annoying, kind of cheesy, but is that really a reason to hate them? For those reasons alone, no. Plenty of odd, cheesy stuff existed before and will continue to exist. The primary reason for Challenges to garner my hate is the lack of a proper defense. Either accept the Challenge or lose everything. This would have been the perfect place for a leadership test. Any good commander knows a battlefield is no place for a duel. Any good rampaging horde will ignore the guy yammering upfront and overrun him.
I'll certainly be happy to house rule it out with my friends, but I don't look forward to this new, easily abused cheese popping up in tournament/league play. Anyone else feel similar?
I'll just itemize the problems with your logic, to cut down on time.
1. A Hive Tyrant isn't an independent character, therefore can't declare a challenge.
2. Challenges have been around since Fantasy, which are designed specifically so that people can't hide an Indy inside a horde and call themselves successful.
3. There's no such thing as a "hidden" power fist. Either the opponent has one, or he doesn't. Ask at the beginning of the game, like literally everyone should.
4. If you don't want to be challenged, keep your HQs out of the fight. If you're running a close combat list and don't want your HQs to get in the fight, then don't run close combat lists. It's a strategy meant for those willing to throw themselves into a fight, not sit back and shoot.
5. Read the rules before you complain.
If you're running a CC army, then you should want to get in as much damage as possible, and challenged are a good way to keep your IC from being swamped by ten bros while still being useful. If you're running a shooty list, then you are complaining about. . .what? The fact that challenges are going to help balance out things like improved shooting weapons and things like Overwatch?
Fafnir13 wrote:They just seem like a cheesy snipe/negate attempt that will benefit certain armies (anyone with high initiative) while hurting others. For example: Trazyn the Infinite's Empathic Obliterator can deal a lot of wounds at the end of combat, but only to units of the same name as one he killed. If he's locked in a challenge and manages to win, it essentially gets to do nothing unless he's being attacked by a mob of like named characters. Another example is how hidden power fists/claws are now easy to keep out of a fight. A Hive Tyrant can now charge the group of 30 boys+1 Nob and issue a challange. Accept=dead nob with no power claw attacks. Decline=no power claw attacks and lots of dead boys. The challenge can even be issued every turn to keep the targeted character inactive.
Worst of all, a lone character can charge, win a challenge, and sweeping advance the rest of the squad.
All these can be annoying, kind of cheesy, but is that really a reason to hate them? For those reasons alone, no. Plenty of odd, cheesy stuff existed before and will continue to exist. The primary reason for Challenges to garner my hate is the lack of a proper defense. Either accept the Challenge or lose everything. This would have been the perfect place for a leadership test. Any good commander knows a battlefield is no place for a duel. Any good rampaging horde will ignore the guy yammering upfront and overrun him.
I'll certainly be happy to house rule it out with my friends, but I don't look forward to this new, easily abused cheese popping up in tournament/league play. Anyone else feel similar?
I'll just itemize the problems with your logic, to cut down on time.
1. A Hive Tyrant isn't an independent character, therefore can't declare a challenge.
2. Challenges have been around since Fantasy, which are designed specifically so that people can't hide an Indy inside a horde and call themselves successful.
3. There's no such thing as a "hidden" power fist. Either the opponent has one, or he doesn't. Ask at the beginning of the game, like literally everyone should.
4. If you don't want to be challenged, keep your HQs out of the fight. If you're running a close combat list and don't want your HQs to get in the fight, then don't run close combat lists. It's a strategy meant for those willing to throw themselves into a fight, not sit back and shoot.
5. Read the rules before you complain.
Hive tyrants are Characters and can issue challanges (check the reference in the back of the book)
ALso, a hidden power fist is what you discribed. "so that people can't hide an Indy inside a horde and call themselves successful". Cause of wound allocation you couldn't directly target the PF and so it was "hidden".
I'm excited to see what challanges brings to the table and how it will change list building. I think power weapons will be loads more popular now and that we'll see many MEQ run a power sword + melta bomb sergeant instead of a powerfist (I know I will)
DPBellathrom wrote:well, at first I was like "wooooo mephiston will own in challenges"
then I was all like "what do you mean force weapons aren't power weapons -.-"
looks like 6thed is already messing people's armies up big time :/
There are now three types of Force Weapons
Force Swords which are Power Swords with Force
Force Axes are Power Axes with Force
Force Staves are Power Mauls with Force
yeah your right, mephiston's still good to go thank god :3
also, khans going to have fun using gorechild seeing as it's power axe. being T4 and swinging last in a challange isn't good news
By Mork and Gork what Ork Nob WOULDN'T take a challenge? All the fluff has Ork leaders looking for the biggest and 'ardest bloke to fight just to prove they are the best
Haven't yet had a chance to have a game, and yes if you are scared your big bad boss will lose in a challenge... make a cheap sargent take the fall while you wipe out the other unit
Challenges are stupid in my opinion and dont belong in 40k, fantasy yeah, theyre awesome and add flavour. 40K no, its just gunna become a silly way of invalidating peoples squad leaders and getting around bodyguard units. Plus nids accepting challenges? Dark eldar agreeing to stand about and not stab some upstart commander in the face with the first chance they get? Really? The actual rules for fighting a challenge are cool, but they way theyre initiated is annoying imo. I reckon you should take a LD test, if passed, your choice weather to fight the challenge or fight as normal, fail, have to fight or back down
Ol'Dirty wrote:It would make sense for Tyranids to ignore challenges, I mean they just wouldn't care. Although if I understand it right the Lash Whip Hive Tyrant will do well in challenges.
Because the Hive mind sees no tactical value in removing leaders and symbolic champions on the field of battle
to INSULTS ARE A VIOLATION OF DAKKA RULE 1 op, any character can accept. Send a cryptek, or an mss lord. DON'T INSULT PEOPLE.-MANNAHNIN use you head and own the rule.
Arschbombe wrote:With the challenge, you either let the opponent direct his character's attacks at your nob directly, or your nob doesn't fight. Most characters are going to be able to fight before the nob and have a good chance of killing him before he gets to do anything. It inverts the situation we had in 5th where the nob was protected by his boyz and then able to attack to full effect.
p. weap Tac sarge vs nob-
Tac sarge swings 3 times, hits 1.5 times (im assuming rolls to hit in CC are the same?)
Wounds 0.75 times
...a nob has two wounds which leaves him on average alive.
...the nob swings 3 times with a powerklaw...
This works vs Wolf guard squad leaders, chaos marine champs of the non-bezerker variety, and even the plain old SM libby or runepriest. The PK nob isn't shelved yet.
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Bobug wrote:Challenges are stupid in my opinion and dont belong in 40k, fantasy yeah, theyre awesome and add flavour. 40K no, its just gunna become a silly way of invalidating peoples squad leaders and getting around bodyguard units. Plus nids accepting challenges? Dark eldar agreeing to stand about and not stab some upstart commander in the face with the first chance they get? Really? The actual rules for fighting a challenge are cool, but they way theyre initiated is annoying imo. I reckon you should take a LD test, if passed, your choice weather to fight the challenge or fight as normal, fail, have to fight or back down
I think there should be some extra rules myself. In the nids example- yes. I can see having a leaderbeast cut down in an enemy commander in a challenge in melee happening. I can also see the 'nids not caring about the challenge. I don't see a bloodletter champion, for example, hiding in his unit to avoid melee combat, i just don't see it. A rule that allows a character to ignore a challenge and still fight would make sense for some units.
Yep, and when are you going to have dante running around by himself without at least a squad sergeant hanging out? Problem solved
Also on a side tangent, MSS got a big hit since you dont pile in until your initiative and need to be in BTB at the start. Just something to be aware of. Challenges however are exempt as they count as being in BTB
I'm really looking forward to challenges, personally. I've been running a CC beatstick Wolf Lord since 3rd Edition. In 5th, he was kind of a fun waste of points, but not exactly a competitive choice. However, with challenges he'll finally be in his element. And he might actually achieve his Saga of the Bear sometimes now haha. Although Arjac will have to be dead before he can accept/issue a challenge I suppose...
HawaiiMatt wrote:So you're comparing a squad leader to an army leaders and saying the army leader is winning?
Duh.
Put a warboss in with the nob, and let the nob soak the challenge. Warboss goes to town.
-Matt
Adding a warboss to the squad changes the dynamic. I'm talking about basic squad leaders challenging each other. A tactical sergeant can now kill the nob before he can swing which can tilt the balance of the combat.
Jihallah wrote:
p. weap Tac sarge vs nob-
Tac sarge swings 3 times, hits 1.5 times (im assuming rolls to hit in CC are the same?)
Wounds 0.75 times
...a nob has two wounds which leaves him on average alive.
...the nob swings 3 times with a powerklaw...
This works vs Wolf guard squad leaders, chaos marine champs of the non-bezerker variety, and even the plain old SM libby or runepriest. The PK nob isn't shelved yet.
With the charge the sergeant will get 4 attacks and has a decent chance (25%) of doing 2 wounds to the nob. If he doesn't kill the nob, then he's almost certainly dead, but he does have the chance. Before he never had that chance because you had to kill all the boyz before the nob could be hurt.
Nobz might not all get shelved, but I think it's almost a given that the powerfist sergeant is an endangered species now.
Arschbombe wrote:With the charge the sergeant will get 4 attacks and has a decent chance (25%) of doing 2 wounds to the nob. If he doesn't kill the nob, then he's almost certainly dead, but he does have the chance. Before he never had that chance because you had to kill all the boyz before the nob could be hurt.
Nobz might not all get shelved, but I think it's almost a given that the powerfist sergeant is an endangered species now.
The chance of a single attack from a space marine causing a wound to a nob is .5 (to hit) x .5 (to wound) x .5 (4+ armor, mandatory now) = 12.5%. The chance of four attacks causing two or more wounds to the nob is 33%. Assuming that you are both charging (stupid idea against the best snap-fire army in the game) and equipped with two CCW.
I'm wondering if power mauls might not see some use on tactical sergeants now. It has the best performance against 4+ armor and can double out T3 models at initiative.
yeah i like challenges too, im going to be playing my DA as a "must accept any challenge and must always issue a challenge" kind of army, due to being Knights.
Also Nids do Accept challenges, i can think of 2 times where a Fex accepted one or if it helps... think of it as the Hive mind Targeting the V.I.P's of the enemy army
To anyone (just in general) who says that challenges are not fluff appropriate for the 40k universe... wait, what? I thought this was pretty much the MO of most badass leaders: walk up to the badass leader of the other army and beat the hell out of each other? Am I wrong? Really, its no less appropriate than Fantasy. If I never hear this complaint again, I will be a happy man.
Leth wrote:Yep, and when are you going to have dante running around by himself without at least a squad sergeant hanging out? Problem solved
Also on a side tangent, MSS got a big hit since you dont pile in until your initiative and need to be in BTB at the start. Just something to be aware of. Challenges however are exempt as they count as being in BTB
Really I think MSS is even better. I believe but don't know for sure, in challenges they can only hit the challengee. And without pile in it means you always get to choose the model impacted by mss the first round of combat by just b2b'ing the one guy. I think it makes them deadlier honestly because the pile on shlubs doesn't work first round.
How about this, I'm really tired of IC's in 5th that could just stroll up and waste all my guys before I even got to hit them. Now? Roll up with my lord commish, let strakken do the rest lol.
Arschbombe wrote:With the charge the sergeant will get 4 attacks and has a decent chance (25%) of doing 2 wounds to the nob. If he doesn't kill the nob, then he's almost certainly dead, but he does have the chance. Before he never had that chance because you had to kill all the boyz before the nob could be hurt.
Nobz might not all get shelved, but I think it's almost a given that the powerfist sergeant is an endangered species now.
The chance of a single attack from a space marine causing a wound to a nob is .5 (to hit) x .5 (to wound) x .5 (4+ armor, mandatory now) = 12.5%. The chance of four attacks causing two or more wounds to the nob is 33%. Assuming that you are both charging (stupid idea against the best snap-fire army in the game) and equipped with two CCW.
I think they're talking about Power Fists. If your Sergeant wasn't equipped with a Power Fist there'd be no point in challenging a Nob, who would 9 times out of 9 be equipped with a Power Klaw and threaten to rip the Sergeant to pieces once he hits I1.
If he has a Power Fist and you get challenged, your Nob now faces a thing that ignores armor saves, strikes at the same initiative, and threatens instant death on a model with no invulnerable saves. A PF Serg is a huge threat to a Nob.
the math goes like this: (.5)*(.83)*2 or .83 chance to instant death your Nob in one round of combat, regardless of whether you spend the 5 points on 'eavy Armor.
Edit, never mind, I didn't read the post you were responding to. He was talking about a Serg without a PF, which IMO it would simply be pointless to challenge a PK Nob without yourself having a Power Fist. If you had a Power Fist, the opportunity would be too great to pass up for the Tac squad not to challenge the Nob.
Actually, I think who's going to be a monster in CC is any of those ICs in the BA dex that can nerf an IC (rerolls plus nerf or whatev). If you can nerf an IC and then challenge it, you're guaranteed a kill, in which case you win combat and roll them up.
As far as i know, only hive tyrants and tervigons are MC(character) in the tyranids book(from the reference summary in the back). So only they can do challenges
I'm a fantasy player, and there are certain tactics where challenges are concerned.
The best one, is to have your unit champion (nob) and your hero (ic - warboss) in the one unit. You charge, your oppenent challenges. You can then accept with the nob, freeing your warboss to go ape-crazy on his unit.
sverigesson wrote:To anyone (just in general) who says that challenges are not fluff appropriate for the 40k universe... wait, what? I thought this was pretty much the MO of most badass leaders: walk up to the badass leader of the other army and beat the hell out of each other? Am I wrong? Really, its no less appropriate than Fantasy. If I never hear this complaint again, I will be a happy man.
Well no, not all 40k armies are lead by the mentaly challenged in the fluff. While spacemarines might act like stereotypical medieval knights, Tyranids, IG commanders and quite a few others tend to use their brain at least once in a while. Besides that, even the Hivemind will probably know that exposing the important Hive Tyrant for the chance of removing your opponent's leadership is less smart then simply sending a few hundred Hormagants to do the job.
sverigesson wrote:To anyone (just in general) who says that challenges are not fluff appropriate for the 40k universe... wait, what? I thought this was pretty much the MO of most badass leaders: walk up to the badass leader of the other army and beat the hell out of each other? Am I wrong? Really, its no less appropriate than Fantasy. If I never hear this complaint again, I will be a happy man.
Well no, not all 40k armies are lead by the mentaly challenged in the fluff. While spacemarines might act like stereotypical medieval knights, Tyranids, IG commanders and quite a few others tend to use their brain at least once in a while. Besides that, even the Hivemind will probably know that exposing the important Hive Tyrant for the chance of removing your opponent's leadership is less smart then simply sending a few hundred Hormagants to do the job.
The titanic clash between hero and villain is a solid staple of 40K. Even lowly guard sergeants or mindless beasts get their screen time. I can't count the number of times I've read about a heroic Commissar battling some enemy character. Gaunt? Cain? Yarrick? Schaeffer? While I disagree with the assertion that characters just walk up the enemy leader and beat the hell out of each other, to say that a challenge as presented in the rules is not suitable for forces like the IG, Tyranids or others is to really devalue the narrative element of 40K.
Power Fists are pretty much relegated to "more anti-tank". If you want to accept challanges and win (BTW you don't HAVE to accept), take power weapons. Honestly, I can see fist sergeants declining, then whacking things the next round. Power Mauls are pretty good now too, even though they're AP4, they turn the guy into str 6! Lemartes is now Str 7 on the charge, pretty good for a space marine
Just dropping in to say that I absolutely love challenges. My Destroyer Lord in his unit of Wraiths defeated two squads and two HQs with ease.
MSS are downright gruesome. High chance to fail and if you do, the duel is over. Even if the enemy gets lucky and survives beating himself to a bloody pile of dead meat, he still faces the Destroyer Lord and is then torn apart in a blink of an eye. The only annoying thing are AP 2 melee weapons.
And the thing is: if the enemy refuses to take the challenge, he still faces an absolute beast that will likely kill 3 models.
And...and...Wraiths with PE! Oh dear gods. So much ass-kicking.
I usually run Primas Psykers as my hq. I don't know how I feel about challenges.
On one hand the PP is probably going to die horribly. On the other hand they have a force weapon. If they manage to get just one wound through and I pass the psychic test, I win!
It'll be fun to have him lightly nic a 6 wound MC and have it's head explode violently.
my DA captain is gonna rock a plasma pistol and bolt pistol and a Power broadsword (axe), rock up and blast away with both my pistols then charge and get beaten down lol
Since Dante's The Axe Mortalis has one or more extra rules so it cannot use the Power axe table stats. It falls under the Unusual Power Weapons rule that uses the profile AP 3 Melee as well as its additional rules. There is no such thing as a Power axe that is master-crafted in the rulebook. Lemartes and Kharn were individually FAQed to use different weapons profiles not so you could creatively decide to change other characters Unusual Power Weapons to your liking.
Radiation wrote:Since Dante's The Axe Mortalis has one or more extra rules so it cannot use the Power axe table stats. It falls under the Unusual Power Weapons rule that uses the profile AP 3 Melee as well as its additional rules. There is no such thing as a Power axe that is master-crafted in the rulebook. Lemartes and Kharn were individually FAQed to use different weapons profiles not so you could creatively decide to change other characters Unusual Power Weapons to your liking.
Kaldor wrote:I'm not up to date with the new necron stuff, what is MSS and how does it work?
MSS = Mind Shackle Scarabs. If in b2b with the model that carries MSS, the enemy model must take a LD test with 3(!)d6. If the model fails the test, it does not attack normally. Instead of its normal attacks, it attacks his unit or, if it's alone, itself with D3 attacks. Normal weapon modificators apply, the Necron player may decide which weapon is going to be used in case the model carries more than one. It's dirt cheap too.
Kaldor wrote:I'm not up to date with the new necron stuff, what is MSS and how does it work?
MSS = Mind Shackle Scarabs. If in b2b with the model that carries MSS, the enemy model must take a LD test with 3(!)d6. If the model fails the test, it does not attack normally. Instead of its normal attacks, it attacks his unit or, if it's alone, itself with D3 attacks. Normal weapon modificators apply, the Necron player may decide which weapon is going to be used in case the model carries more than one. It's dirt cheap too.
Hmm, so how does that work with multiple pile-in moves at different initiative steps? I mean, for a challenge you're always considered to be in base-to-base so it doesn't matter, but what about regular combat? Does it have to be in base to base at the start of the combat, or only when it is that models turn to strike?
Radiation wrote:Since Dante's The Axe Mortalis has one or more extra rules so it cannot use the Power axe table stats. It falls under the Unusual Power Weapons rule that uses the profile AP 3 Melee as well as its additional rules. There is no such thing as a Power axe that is master-crafted in the rulebook. Lemartes and Kharn were individually FAQed to use different weapons profiles not so you could creatively decide to change other characters Unusual Power Weapons to your liking.
Dante's axe has no special rules. It is simply a power axe that is master-crafted (master-crafting is in the rulebook). Astaroth has a special weapon, it's a strength 6 power weapon, so strength 6, AP3, strikes at initiative, forces re-rolls of successful ward saves.
Kaldor wrote:I'm not up to date with the new necron stuff, what is MSS and how does it work?
MSS = Mind Shackle Scarabs. If in b2b with the model that carries MSS, the enemy model must take a LD test with 3(!)d6. If the model fails the test, it does not attack normally. Instead of its normal attacks, it attacks his unit or, if it's alone, itself with D3 attacks. Normal weapon modificators apply, the Necron player may decide which weapon is going to be used in case the model carries more than one. It's dirt cheap too.
Hmm, so how does that work with multiple pile-in moves at different initiative steps? I mean, for a challenge you're always considered to be in base-to-base so it doesn't matter, but what about regular combat? Does it have to be in base to base at the start of the combat, or only when it is that models turn to strike?
When more than one model is in b2b with your character, you roll to decide which one is going to be affected by MSS. Effect comes to play at the start of the assault phase thus before pile-in moves.
Radiation wrote:Since Dante's The Axe Mortalis has one or more extra rules so it cannot use the Power axe table stats. It falls under the Unusual Power Weapons rule that uses the profile AP 3 Melee as well as its additional rules. There is no such thing as a Power axe that is master-crafted in the rulebook. Lemartes and Kharn were individually FAQed to use different weapons profiles not so you could creatively decide to change other characters Unusual Power Weapons to your liking.
Dante's axe has no special rules. It is simply a power axe that is master-crafted (master-crafting is in the rulebook). Astaroth has a special weapon, it's a strength 6 power weapon, so strength 6, AP3, strikes at initiative, forces re-rolls of successful ward saves.
Show me where it says in the rulebook that "Power Weapons" "Types of Power Weapons" or "Power axe" have access to master-crafted.
This is what I see, "If a model's wargear says it has a power weapon which has no further special rules..."
Since The Axe Mortalis is master crafted and master-crafted is described under "Special Rules" then The Axe Mortalis cannot fit under the "Types of Power Weapons" category that unlocks the stat table for "Power axe."
It instead falls in the "Unusual Power Weapons" category as AP 3 Melee.
So the more I think about these rules the more I'm starting to think Calgar is now a complete beat stick (I'd also love to use him agains a mss, because he auto passes leadership tests).
Radiation wrote:Since Dante's The Axe Mortalis has one or more extra rules so it cannot use the Power axe table stats. It falls under the Unusual Power Weapons rule that uses the profile AP 3 Melee as well as its additional rules. There is no such thing as a Power axe that is master-crafted in the rulebook. Lemartes and Kharn were individually FAQed to use different weapons profiles not so you could creatively decide to change other characters Unusual Power Weapons to your liking.
Dante's axe has no special rules. It is simply a power axe that is master-crafted (master-crafting is in the rulebook). Astaroth has a special weapon, it's a strength 6 power weapon, so strength 6, AP3, strikes at initiative, forces re-rolls of successful ward saves.
Show me where it says in the rulebook that "Power Weapons" "Types of Power Weapons" or "Power axe" have access to master-crafted.
This is what I see, "If a model's wargear says it has a power weapon which has no further special rules..."
Since The Axe Mortalis is master crafted and master-crafted is described under "Special Rules" then The Axe Mortalis cannot fit under the "Types of Power Weapons" category that unlocks the stat table for "Power axe."
It instead falls in the "Unusual Power Weapons" category as AP 3 Melee.
Power axe, page 61
Master-crafted, page 39
Unusual power weapons, page 61. If a power weapon has its own unique close combat rules, treat it as a AP3 Melee weapon with the additional rules and characteristics presented in its entry. Note the word, "unique." Not "special." "Unique."
Anything unique about being a power axe? No.
Anything unique about being master-crafted? No.
Is the Axe Mortalis a unique weapon requiring unique rules like The (unique) Executioner's Axe? No.
Therefore the Axe Mortalis is a power axe, striking at initiative 1 with AP2 and a +1 strength bonus.
A power axe is a power axe is a power axe, and master-crafting does not give it its own unique close combat rules.
I think it would be great to play him with Power axe stats that are master-crafted, but the rules don't allow it. Also The Axe Mortalis is a unique rule to Dante. No one else has the rule The Axe Mortalis to resolve attacks in an assault. Its not about "suiting myself."
Radiation wrote:Since Dante's The Axe Mortalis has one or more extra rules so it cannot use the Power axe table stats. It falls under the Unusual Power Weapons rule that uses the profile AP 3 Melee as well as its additional rules. There is no such thing as a Power axe that is master-crafted in the rulebook. Lemartes and Kharn were individually FAQed to use different weapons profiles not so you could creatively decide to change other characters Unusual Power Weapons to your liking.
Dante's axe has no special rules. It is simply a power axe that is master-crafted (master-crafting is in the rulebook). Astaroth has a special weapon, it's a strength 6 power weapon, so strength 6, AP3, strikes at initiative, forces re-rolls of successful ward saves.
Show me where it says in the rulebook that "Power Weapons" "Types of Power Weapons" or "Power axe" have access to master-crafted.
This is what I see, "If a model's wargear says it has a power weapon which has no further special rules..."
Since The Axe Mortalis is master crafted and master-crafted is described under "Special Rules" then The Axe Mortalis cannot fit under the "Types of Power Weapons" category that unlocks the stat table for "Power axe."
It instead falls in the "Unusual Power Weapons" category as AP 3 Melee.
Oh, don't be ridiculous. A Master Crafted Thunderhammer is still AP2, and a master crafted Axe is still an Axe.
No point in arguing about it. As long as he's consistent and agrees that Vulkan's master-crafted relic blade is not a relic blade, a Paladin's master-crafted psycannon is not a psycannon, and Belial's master-crafted power sword is not a power sword we can just keep going.
What are the rules for Vulkan's Relic Blade? Has it been FAQ'd?
Psy-cannons are not power weapons so they are not subject to the Types of Power Weapons table.
Has Belial been FAQ'd? What are his new rules?
All I'm doing is reading the rules for how Dante works. I don't think these other examples have anything to do with The Axe Mortalis since it is unique to Dante.
Freman Bloodglaive wrote:No point in arguing about it. As long as he's consistent and agrees that Vulkan's master-crafted relic blade is not a relic blade, a Paladin's master-crafted psycannon is not a psycannon, and Belial's master-crafted power sword is not a power sword we can just keep going.
Its no fun if its consistant.
Personally I dont like the challenge system, for it guarantees I lose a SGT in melee, but if i decline my commissar cant do squat.
It's kinda fun, I mean, so long as you know initiative of the guy you're challenging. I didn't, and got totally bitten in the ass by that despite being easily able to chew him out if my guy survived the strikes.
Kaldor wrote:I'm not up to date with the new necron stuff, what is MSS and how does it work?
MSS = Mind Shackle Scarabs. If in b2b with the model that carries MSS, the enemy model must take a LD test with 3(!)d6. If the model fails the test, it does not attack normally. Instead of its normal attacks, it attacks his unit or, if it's alone, itself with D3 attacks. Normal weapon modificators apply, the Necron player may decide which weapon is going to be used in case the model carries more than one. It's dirt cheap too.
Hmm, so how does that work with multiple pile-in moves at different initiative steps? I mean, for a challenge you're always considered to be in base-to-base so it doesn't matter, but what about regular combat? Does it have to be in base to base at the start of the combat, or only when it is that models turn to strike?
When more than one model is in b2b with your character, you roll to decide which one is going to be affected by MSS. Effect comes to play at the start of the assault phase thus before pile-in moves.
Well, that's confusing as hell for challenges. if MSS takes effect at the start of the assault phase, but a challenge is issued at the start of the fight sub-phase, when does MSS actually take effect? Before or after the challenger/challengee are moved?
And another related question on challenges: How many wounds is it possible to score? For example, in a WHFB challenge, you can score (I think) W+5 wounds, where W = the number of wounds the dead character had on it's profile.
If a super killy character challenges a sergeant and inflicts 8 wounds, does that count as 8 wounds, or only 1?
I love the Challenge system, then again I play Chaos Marines, if I can't fight a challenge with a Daemon Prince or Terminator Lord, something is horribly wrong. One character in particular has gotten my attention, Typhus. He is an absolute beast, his offensive power has only increased a little, but the fact he is so hard to kill now. ID has to be done on a S10 hit as well as to negate FnP. Yea He goes last, but depending on what he fights, there is a real good chance he will be alive by his turn and then proceed to break his opponents face.
Radiation wrote:What are the rules for Vulkan's Relic Blade? Has it been FAQ'd?
Psy-cannons are not power weapons so they are not subject to the Types of Power Weapons table.
Has Belial been FAQ'd? What are his new rules?
All I'm doing is reading the rules for how Dante works. I don't think these other examples have anything to do with The Axe Mortalis since it is unique to Dante.
Relic blades don't need FAQs. They're S6 power weapons so AP3. Master-crafting means he gets 1 re-roll to hit.
Psy-cannons don't need an FAQ, their status is entirely clear to everyone.
Belial doesn't need an FAQ, he has a master-crafted power sword.
Dante doesn't need an FAQ, he has a master-crafted power axe called the Axe Mortalis. The clue is in the name.
When something is so blatantly obvious it is indeed ridiculous to argue against it.
Kaldor wrote:Well, that's confusing as hell for challenges. if MSS takes effect at the start of the assault phase, but a challenge is issued at the start of the fight sub-phase, when does MSS actually take effect? Before or after the challenger/challengee are moved?
Depends. Sometimes MSS will probably go first and sometimes it'll go at the same time. Really needs to be clarified.
I don't know for sure, but if ICs grant their special rules to the squad they have joined (f.e. fearless), then Celestine + Seraphim issuing challenges left and right will be one annoying unit.
Kaldor wrote:Well, that's confusing as hell for challenges. if MSS takes effect at the start of the assault phase, but a challenge is issued at the start of the fight sub-phase, when does MSS actually take effect? Before or after the challenger/challengee are moved?
Depends. Sometimes MSS will probably go first and sometimes it'll go at the same time. Really needs to be clarified.
The actual attacks generated by MSS happens at the affected models initiative. You determine who is affected at the start of the fight sub-phase as per the Necron FAQ.
The thing to fear now is the surfboard overlords. D6 S6 I10 hammer of wrath attacks, MSS that even the highest LD fails half the time, "free" 2+ save, and can leave combat during its movement phase allowing a sweep attack and a second charge. It's an AV 13 fast skimmer to boot.
I had my first challenge this weekend my friends Slaanesh Deamon prince was assault by my 5 man deathwing TH/SS squad with Belial counts-as with TH/SS.
Even though he struck first and tried to kill me, I won this brings to mind the first new saying of six.
Ol'Dirty wrote:It would make sense for Tyranids to ignore challenges, I mean they just wouldn't care. Although if I understand it right the Lash Whip Hive Tyrant will do well in challenges.
Forget the Tyrant. For 105 points you can get a Tyranid Prime with Lashwhip, Bonesword, Scything Talons, and Poison. Anyone he fights is I1 and he has five attacks on the charge. The Prime hits nearly everything on a 3 with rerolls to wound and wounds almost everything on a rerollable 3 that ignores armor. Exactly the kind of unit I want in a challenge. T5 makes he resilient against fists and hammers too. Not to mention being an IC, he is way easier to get across the table than a Tyrant.
I guess my crypeks with no upgrades are looking good. Single Wound Character that I can let respond to a challenge and just go away, taking with it all excess hits by the IC, good chance he's reanimating so bonus. If the enemy doesn't challenge, then I challenge with the same Cryptek! (And hope that my squad is able to do enough wounds to win the assault and not fallback/get swept) It's a brilliant plan.
Dante's power axe is a power axe, with the master-crafted special rule, but no actual special factors about his weapon. The ridiculousness is anybody suggesting it is anything else.
Fafnir13 wrote:They just seem like a cheesy snipe/negate attempt that will benefit certain armies (anyone with high initiative) while hurting others. For example: Trazyn the Infinite's Empathic Obliterator can deal a lot of wounds at the end of combat, but only to units of the same name as one he killed. If he's locked in a challenge and manages to win, it essentially gets to do nothing unless he's being attacked by a mob of like named characters. Another example is how hidden power fists/claws are now easy to keep out of a fight. A Hive Tyrant can now charge the group of 30 boys+1 Nob and issue a challange. Accept=dead nob with no power claw attacks. Decline=no power claw attacks and lots of dead boys. The challenge can even be issued every turn to keep the targeted character inactive.
Worst of all, a lone character can charge, win a challenge, and sweeping advance the rest of the squad.
All these can be annoying, kind of cheesy, but is that really a reason to hate them? For those reasons alone, no. Plenty of odd, cheesy stuff existed before and will continue to exist. The primary reason for Challenges to garner my hate is the lack of a proper defense. Either accept the Challenge or lose everything. This would have been the perfect place for a leadership test. Any good commander knows a battlefield is no place for a duel. Any good rampaging horde will ignore the guy yammering upfront and overrun him.
I'll certainly be happy to house rule it out with my friends, but I don't look forward to this new, easily abused cheese popping up in tournament/league play. Anyone else feel similar?
I'll just itemize the problems with your logic, to cut down on time.
1. A Hive Tyrant isn't an independent character, therefore can't declare a challenge.
2. Challenges have been around since Fantasy, which are designed specifically so that people can't hide an Indy inside a horde and call themselves successful.
3. There's no such thing as a "hidden" power fist. Either the opponent has one, or he doesn't. Ask at the beginning of the game, like literally everyone should.
4. If you don't want to be challenged, keep your HQs out of the fight. If you're running a close combat list and don't want your HQs to get in the fight, then don't run close combat lists. It's a strategy meant for those willing to throw themselves into a fight, not sit back and shoot.
5. Read the rules before you complain.
Hive Tyrants are Characters and so can issue challanges. You don't have to be an Independent Character to issue one. Sergeants and the like can issue challanges.
Seems this challenge deal helps out Space Wolves? An attached Wolf Guard acts like a sarge, and can challenge or be challenged, fine, but a regular Grey Hunter can also buy a fist or a power weapon. So it seems Space Wolves can still hide their fists in squads if they wish!
Tye_Informer wrote:I guess my crypeks with no upgrades are looking good. Single Wound Character that I can let respond to a challenge and just go away, taking with it all excess hits by the IC, good chance he's reanimating so bonus. If the enemy doesn't challenge, then I challenge with the same Cryptek! (And hope that my squad is able to do enough wounds to win the assault and not fallback/get swept) It's a brilliant plan.
Okay, there are so many things wrong with this I'm actually kinda sad.
1) Why are you not upgrading your Cryptek to become:
-the best anti-tank gun in the game (Storm)
-a Night Fight enabling Str 8 AP 2 cannon (Destruction)
-a teleporting template weapon (Despair)
2) Why are you not taking a Lord/Overlord w/ Warscythe and MSS? This is basically an insta-win situation in a challenge. 3d6 against Ld 10 = 50% chance to pass. So at least half of the time, the Necrons will win the challenge by default. And that's even before using the Warscythe, which may be arguably the best CC weapon in 40k right now since it swings ahead of all the unwieldly AP2 weapons like power axes and fists, it grants +2 strength like a power axe, and it deals 2d6 armour pen and even adds +2 on the armour pen chart!
3) Why are you responding to a challenge? What idiot would ever challenge a Necron with MSS & a Warscythe?
4) Why are you not challenging EVERYONE? Seriously, even a Draigo has a 50% of stabbing himself in the face against the Necrons. The only two characters I would even consider holding off from aggressively challenging would be Crowe and Lukas the Trickster; and even then only if it was an Overlord, and not a regular Lord that I was risking.
5) You can take Lords in every troop unit! Do it! A Lord w/ Warscythe & MSS is only 60 points! And if your opponent denies the challenge, then his Sergeant gets to have a time-out, and you still get to MSS another model!
Joe Mama wrote:Seems this challenge deal helps out Space Wolves? An attached Wolf Guard acts like a sarge, and can challenge or be challenged, fine, but a regular Grey Hunter can also buy a fist or a power weapon. So it seems Space Wolves can still hide their fists in squads if they wish!
Yeah, but our squad's fists are really expensive in comparison to other codices (yeah I know, they're Grey Hunters, boo hoo). I might keep my squads with just power weapons, or save the points and just rely on my Wulfen to continue to do the job.
Joe Mama wrote:Seems this challenge deal helps out Space Wolves? An attached Wolf Guard acts like a sarge, and can challenge or be challenged, fine, but a regular Grey Hunter can also buy a fist or a power weapon. So it seems Space Wolves can still hide their fists in squads if they wish!
Yeah, but our squad's fists are really expensive in comparison to other codices (yeah I know, they're Grey Hunters, boo hoo). I might keep my squads with just power weapons, or save the points and just rely on my Wulfen to continue to do the job.
Regarding challenges, I think one of the funnier aspects would be to have Bjorn challenge someone. That way he can't get swarmed or tarpitted.
My opponent only had a single wound on his profile.
Do I score 6 points for combat resolution, or 1 point?
I think it's 6 points, the way the rules are written, but I'd like to know what other people think.
Tarrasq wrote:The actual attacks generated by MSS happens at the affected models initiative. You determine who is affected at the start of the fight sub-phase as per the Necron FAQ.
This is important for challenges, because unless the challenger and challengee were in direct base contact immediately after assault moves, the MSS cannot effect the challenge. They'll still effect whoever the Necron model was in BtB with at the start of the assault phase, but if that wasn't the enemy involved in the challenge he won't have to worry about them.
It looks to me like combat ICs are the simplest answer to challenges. A monstrous creature character is in trouble if it gets locked in a challenge against a space marine captain with TH/SS who has 10 onlookers giving him two potential rerolls on that SS save. (Can't reroll a reroll, but the mathhammer is not good for the MC.)
There are rules for a counter-charging character to intercept a challenge too if the first round is survived.
I could see, as an example, an infantry-based marine army using a squad of 10 (sniper?) scouts with a combat captain to guard their fire-base against assault.
Additionally under some circumstances an unupgraded Sgt can sacrifice himself to hold off a lone character or dangerous power weapon, then the squad runs away or waits for counter-charge.
Tarrasq wrote:The actual attacks generated by MSS happens at the affected models initiative. You determine who is affected at the start of the fight sub-phase as per the Necron FAQ.
This is important for challenges, because unless the challenger and challengee were in direct base contact immediately after assault moves, the MSS cannot effect the challenge. They'll still effect whoever the Necron model was in BtB with at the start of the assault phase, but if that wasn't the enemy involved in the challenge he won't have to worry about them.
I do not have an answer to your question about overkill; I would like to know myself. Similarly, I would like to kno what happens to a unit with regards to Sweeping Advance if they attack a lone IC who challenges and wins.
However, with respect to the MSS: the challenge rules say that the two combatants are considered to be in b2b with each other only. So MSS definitely does wreck face in a challenge.
Kaldor wrote:This is important for challenges, because unless the challenger and challengee were in direct base contact immediately after assault moves, the MSS cannot effect the challenge. They'll still effect whoever the Necron model was in BtB with at the start of the assault phase, but if that wasn't the enemy involved in the challenge he won't have to worry about them.
I do not have an answer to your question about overkill; I would like to know myself. Similarly, I would like to kno what happens to a unit with regards to Sweeping Advance if they attack a lone IC who challenges and wins.
On a re-read of the rules, it seems you can only cause as many wounds as the character has on his profile. The Sweeping Advance seems pretty clear. If the unit runs, the IC can chase them down. Makes a lot of sense with something like a Dreadknight vs some Guardsmen, less so with other match-ups.
azazel the cat wrote:However, with respect to the MSS: the challenge rules say that the two combatants are considered to be in b2b with each other only. So MSS definitely does wreck face in a challenge.
Yeah, but they aren't in b2b until the challenge starts. I'd need to look at the exact wording of the MSS, but to me it seems to be this:
1 - Move assaulting units.
2 - Determine who is affected by MSS 3 - Determine who, if anyone, is fighting a challenge.
4 - Move challenger or challengee as required.
I don't think you would get to wait and see if you're going to be in a challenge before choosing who to use the MSS on. It's just whoever you end up being in B2B with after assault moves are made.
Kaldor wrote:This is important for challenges, because unless the challenger and challengee were in direct base contact immediately after assault moves, the MSS cannot effect the challenge. They'll still effect whoever the Necron model was in BtB with at the start of the assault phase, but if that wasn't the enemy involved in the challenge he won't have to worry about them.
I do not have an answer to your question about overkill; I would like to know myself. Similarly, I would like to kno what happens to a unit with regards to Sweeping Advance if they attack a lone IC who challenges and wins.
On a re-read of the rules, it seems you can only cause as many wounds as the character has on his profile. The Sweeping Advance seems pretty clear. If the unit runs, the IC can chase them down. Makes a lot of sense with something like a Dreadknight vs some Guardsmen, less so with other match-ups.
^^ This. The book states that for assault results, you only ever cause as many unsaved wounds as there are available. (including ALL wounds lost by ID). So there is no "overkill" like there is in fantasy. For gameplay, I like this, it keeps it simple. For fluffy-in-my-head-cinematic reasons, I don't, because I feel there should be some sort of morale penalty for seeing your Captain/Sarge/Chaptermaster utterly disembowled and dismembered by that hive tyrant. Oh well.
*edit* I fething love challenges. I like them from a fluff point, and from a gameplay point. To me, that is the epitome of a "cinematic" CC fight: My Warboss bellowing out a challenge, then shoving the nob in the way, so he can kill some beakies. Then, after he's had his fill of that, he goes and kills that pesky seargant.
Man, if what everyone is saying about Mind Shackle Scarabs is true, then we have the ultimate 1 on 1 combatants in the universe right here.
Overlord with Weave and MSS.
Good by Draigo, Calgar, Abaddon, Ghazzy...you just got beat by a dirt cheap non-named IC.
Is it possible for mob rule to help out Ork characters? Will they get to take this test at LD 10 if there are at least ten boyz in the unit? Will we get to use our Boyz rerolls on the MSS roll?
Kaldor wrote:This is important for challenges, because unless the challenger and challengee were in direct base contact immediately after assault moves, the MSS cannot effect the challenge. They'll still effect whoever the Necron model was in BtB with at the start of the assault phase, but if that wasn't the enemy involved in the challenge he won't have to worry about them.
I do not have an answer to your question about overkill; I would like to know myself. Similarly, I would like to kno what happens to a unit with regards to Sweeping Advance if they attack a lone IC who challenges and wins.
On a re-read of the rules, it seems you can only cause as many wounds as the character has on his profile. The Sweeping Advance seems pretty clear. If the unit runs, the IC can chase them down. Makes a lot of sense with something like a Dreadknight vs some Guardsmen, less so with other match-ups.
^^ This. The book states that for assault results, you only ever cause as many unsaved wounds as there are available. (including ALL wounds lost by ID). So there is no "overkill" like there is in fantasy. For gameplay, I like this, it keeps it simple. For fluffy-in-my-head-cinematic reasons, I don't, because I feel there should be some sort of morale penalty for seeing your Captain/Sarge/Chaptermaster utterly disembowled and dismembered by that hive tyrant. Oh well.
*edit* I fething love challenges. I like them from a fluff point, and from a gameplay point. To me, that is the epitome of a "cinematic" CC fight: My Warboss bellowing out a challenge, then shoving the nob in the way, so he can kill some beakies. Then, after he's had his fill of that, he goes and kills that pesky seargant.
I had fun already with the challenges, my Epistolary munched up an Eldar HQ and my friend's CSM warlord, and it's pretty fun stuff, and you're right, it enhances the fluff of any given battle, although Andilus and I will not likely pit our respective warlords in a challenge unless I give Atlas a force axe, but I honestly think I'll just opt for something else.
gpfunk wrote:Man, if what everyone is saying about Mind Shackle Scarabs is true, then we have the ultimate 1 on 1 combatants in the universe right here.
Overlord with Weave and MSS.
Good by Draigo, Calgar, Abaddon, Ghazzy...you just got beat by a dirt cheap non-named IC.
Is it possible for mob rule to help out Ork characters? Will they get to take this test at LD 10 if there are at least ten boyz in the unit? Will we get to use our Boyz rerolls on the MSS roll?
For orks, the answer is yes. Mob rule specifically states that they use the number of models with mob rule in the squad as their LD, with 11 or more also making them fearless. I'm fairly sure the bosspole allows a reroll of a failed LD test, not a failed morale check. if so, and MSS specifically states LD test or bad things happen, then we should get the reroll =)
gpfunk wrote:Man, if what everyone is saying about Mind Shackle Scarabs is true, then we have the ultimate 1 on 1 combatants in the universe right here.
Overlord with Weave and MSS.
Good by Draigo, Calgar, Abaddon, Ghazzy...you just got beat by a dirt cheap non-named IC.
Is it possible for mob rule to help out Ork characters? Will they get to take this test at LD 10 if there are at least ten boyz in the unit? Will we get to use our Boyz rerolls on the MSS roll?
For orks, the answer is yes. Mob rule specifically states that they use the number of models with mob rule in the squad as their LD, with 11 or more also making them fearless. I'm fairly sure the bosspole allows a reroll of a failed LD test, not a failed morale check. if so, and MSS specifically states LD test or bad things happen, then we should get the reroll =)
Then all is not lost. I suppose the best thing about this is that I can finally bring a warboss and not feel bad about it. Thinking about the kit for a challenge ready warboss makes me salivate a bit...
Warboss w/Mega Armor (PK/TL Shoota)
Cybork Body
Boss Pole
Attack Squig
or
Warboss on Warbike
PK Cybork
Boss Pole
Attack Squig
1.) I kit him out like the first one (and use my thraka model)
2.) I get to take my Nob bikers as troops
3.) I only own one bigmek
*edit* A Biker boss in a nob squad just made an already awesome deathstar even more so. Wound Allocation shenanigans on a 4+ for the nobs, 2+ for the boss, plus challenge and challenge redirects all day long.
gpfunk wrote:Man, if what everyone is saying about Mind Shackle Scarabs is true, then we have the ultimate 1 on 1 combatants in the universe right here.
Overlord with Weave and MSS.
Good by Draigo, Calgar, Abaddon, Ghazzy...you just got beat by a dirt cheap non-named IC.
Is it possible for mob rule to help out Ork characters? Will they get to take this test at LD 10 if there are at least ten boyz in the unit? Will we get to use our Boyz rerolls on the MSS roll?
azazel the cat wrote:However, with respect to the MSS: the challenge rules say that the two combatants are considered to be in b2b with each other only. So MSS definitely does wreck face in a challenge.
Yeah, but they aren't in b2b until the challenge starts. I'd need to look at the exact wording of the MSS, but to me it seems to be this:
1 - Move assaulting units.
2 - Determine who is affected by MSS 3 - Determine who, if anyone, is fighting a challenge.
4 - Move challenger or challengee as required.
I don't think you would get to wait and see if you're going to be in a challenge before choosing who to use the MSS on. It's just whoever you end up being in B2B with after assault moves are made.
Rule starts as follows:
"At the start of the assault phase, after assault moves have been made, but before any blows are struck, randomly select..."
The challenge declaration is part of the assault moves, and performed at the same time as the pile-in, and therefore the MSS do work during a challenge.
Also, I know that this is tenuous logic at best, but: Mat Ward invented them, and he usually does create strong codices, so the power level of MSS does fit the pattern. (now I feel cheap)
mind scarabs are one thing. But I would very much like to challenge that powerfist sarge with my broadside Team Leader. Seems to me I've got a pretty good chance of punching him in the face before he gets to wreck my squad.
azazel the cat wrote: "At the start of the assault phase, after assault moves have been made, but before any blows are struck, randomly select..."
The challenge declaration is part of the assault moves, and performed at the same time as the pile-in, and therefore the MSS do work during a challenge
Yeah, I'm not sold on that. I don't think the challenge declaration is part of the assault moves, and I think the pile-in would happen after MSS.
But it's not clear cut, definitely needs an FAQ to clear it up, and I'll be 4+ing it any time it comes up in my games.
azazel the cat wrote: "At the start of the assault phase, after assault moves have been made, but before any blows are struck, randomly select..."
The challenge declaration is part of the assault moves, and performed at the same time as the pile-in, and therefore the MSS do work during a challenge
Yeah, I'm not sold on that. I don't think the challenge declaration is part of the assault moves, and I think the pile-in would happen after MSS.
But it's not clear cut, definitely needs an FAQ to clear it up, and I'll be 4+ing it any time it comes up in my games.
Then why not even go one step further and declare the charge to be part of the assault moves, and thus claim that MSS only work on models that were in b2b prior to the actual assault, even?
The rule itself clearly states that the MSS take effect after all moves have been made, but prior to anyone swinging their swords. That means it works in challenges as well, since challenges occur simultaneously with the rest of combat.
Kinda like when two principle characters square off in films, surrounded by the thick of battle.
EDIT: You don't get to just hold your breath and just say "Nope! roll-off!". You have to put forward a contending argument against this one, and considering that the wording in MSS can only be made more clear with the explicit instructions of "Yes, you can do this in a challenge, us, the game designers, are talking to you, Kaldor!", then I think you'll be hard-pressed to properly earn the right to a roll-off on this matter other than pure obstinance.
azazel the cat wrote:You don't get to just hold your breath and just say "Nope! roll-off!". You have to put forward a contending argument against this one
*sigh*
The wording is decidedly unclear. It was obviously written in another edition.
It says "after assault moves have been made" but makes no mention of further moves in combat. This, to me, states that after the assault moves have been made, you randomly determine who it affects. Having decided who it affects, we then move other models, including normal pile-in moves and moving challenger/challengee models as needed.
I don't see anything to say you can make your assault move, pile in move, 'challenge' move, and THEN decide who it affects. It only says 'assault move'.
Titan Atlas wrote:I had fun already with the challenges, my Epistolary munched up an Eldar HQ and my friend's CSM warlord, and it's pretty fun stuff, and you're right, it enhances the fluff of any given battle, although Andilus and I will not likely pit our respective warlords in a challenge unless I give Atlas a force axe, but I honestly think I'll just opt for something else.
Haha, I've kitted out my Lord to be able to take on 3rd Edition C'tan, but it'd be a fun fight vs Termie Atlas.
Titan Atlas wrote:I had fun already with the challenges, my Epistolary munched up an Eldar HQ and my friend's CSM warlord, and it's pretty fun stuff, and you're right, it enhances the fluff of any given battle, although Andilus and I will not likely pit our respective warlords in a challenge unless I give Atlas a force axe, but I honestly think I'll just opt for something else.
Haha, I've kitted out my Lord to be able to take on 3rd Edition C'tan, but it'd be a fun fight vs Termie Atlas.
well, I'd need to figure out what to do as your lord has the inherent advantage when he has terminator armour...although if I could manage to get iron arm off and we both fought with swords it could just be a battle of who gets worse saving throw rolls XD
Halfpast_Yellow wrote:Dante is better off with a Power Axe over a Sword. I1 is no big deal in 6th ed.
I'm a bit of a newb, but why is Initiative 1 no big deal in 6th edition? The way I've been thinking about it, whichever character goes first in a challenge is probably going to win, aren't they? Especially with all the Necron shenanigans going on now.
Halfpast_Yellow wrote:Dante is better off with a Power Axe over a Sword. I1 is no big deal in 6th ed.
I'm a bit of a newb, but why is Initiative 1 no big deal in 6th edition? The way I've been thinking about it, whichever character goes first in a challenge is probably going to win, aren't they? Especially with all the Necron shenanigans going on now.
It's not so much who gets the first swing in, but who gets the last swing in. So sure, if you can kill someone at your initiative, that's all well and good, but even a relic blade (which while str6, is ap3) is going to have trouble dealing 3 wounds to another captain. Conversely, if that captain had a thunderhammer, he just needs to land one good hit with it.
azazel the cat wrote:You don't get to just hold your breath and just say "Nope! roll-off!". You have to put forward a contending argument against this one
*sigh*
The wording is decidedly unclear. It was obviously written in another edition.
It says "after assault moves have been made" but makes no mention of further moves in combat. This, to me, states that after the assault moves have been made, you randomly determine who it affects. Having decided who it affects, we then move other models, including normal pile-in moves and moving challenger/challengee models as needed.
I don't see anything to say you can make your assault move, pile in move, 'challenge' move, and THEN decide who it affects. It only says 'assault move'.
Actually I think this pretty clearly favors Kaldor (though this is starting to delve into you make the call territory)
it says "after assault moves have been made" this translates into charge moves in 6th edition. Challenges in 6th are actually made in the Fight Sub-Phase, which is an entirely different phase of combat than charge moves.
step 1, charge moves
step 2, MSS, since it is immediately after the assault or "charge move"
step 3, fight subphase.
step 4, challenges.
azazel the cat wrote:You don't get to just hold your breath and just say "Nope! roll-off!". You have to put forward a contending argument against this one
*sigh*
The wording is decidedly unclear. It was obviously written in another edition.
It says "after assault moves have been made" but makes no mention of further moves in combat. This, to me, states that after the assault moves have been made, you randomly determine who it affects. Having decided who it affects, we then move other models, including normal pile-in moves and moving challenger/challengee models as needed.
I don't see anything to say you can make your assault move, pile in move, 'challenge' move, and THEN decide who it affects. It only says 'assault move'.
Actually I think this pretty clearly favors Kaldor (though this is starting to delve into you make the call territory)
it says "after assault moves have been made" this translates into charge moves in 6th edition. Challenges in 6th are actually made in the Fight Sub-Phase, which is an entirely different phase of combat than charge moves.
step 1, charge moves
step 2, MSS, since it is immediately after the assault or "charge move"
step 3, fight subphase.
step 4, challenges.
For what it's worth I agree with you and Kaldor -- but I think an FAQ is what's needed.
even if MSS randomly effect different bases, they are still kings of challenges right now. For only 20 points they are stupidly powerful and an autotake.
azazel the cat wrote:You don't get to just hold your breath and just say "Nope! roll-off!". You have to put forward a contending argument against this one
*sigh*
The wording is decidedly unclear. It was obviously written in another edition.
It says "after assault moves have been made" but makes no mention of further moves in combat. This, to me, states that after the assault moves have been made, you randomly determine who it affects. Having decided who it affects, we then move other models, including normal pile-in moves and moving challenger/challengee models as needed.
I don't see anything to say you can make your assault move, pile in move, 'challenge' move, and THEN decide who it affects. It only says 'assault move'.
All of those things are assault moves. They are moves made during the assault phase. The key is to note that the rule states [i"]...but before any blows are struck...[/i]", implying that MSS is the last thing to occur prior to everyone swinging their swords.
EDIT: I think we should agree to disagree (unless you feel like conceding) so that we don't force this thread to be moved to YMDC.
azazel the cat wrote:EDIT: I think we should agree to disagree (unless you feel like conceding) so that we don't force this thread to be moved to YMDC.
If you want to start a thread in YMDC I'd interested to see what the rest of Dakka thinks.
I think both sides make valid points, and I don't think either side has a totally convincing argument. Which is why it'll be a 4+ at my table. I think that's fair in this instance, and not simply being obstinate.
azazel the cat wrote:You don't get to just hold your breath and just say "Nope! roll-off!". You have to put forward a contending argument against this one
*sigh*
The wording is decidedly unclear. It was obviously written in another edition.
It says "after assault moves have been made" but makes no mention of further moves in combat. This, to me, states that after the assault moves have been made, you randomly determine who it affects. Having decided who it affects, we then move other models, including normal pile-in moves and moving challenger/challengee models as needed.
I don't see anything to say you can make your assault move, pile in move, 'challenge' move, and THEN decide who it affects. It only says 'assault move'.
All of those things are assault moves. They are moves made during the assault phase. The key is to note that the rule states [i"]...but before any blows are struck...[/i]", implying that MSS is the last thing to occur prior to everyone swinging their swords.
EDIT: I think we should agree to disagree (unless you feel like conceding) so that we don't force this thread to be moved to YMDC.
"If a model's wargear says it has a power weapon which has no further special rules..."
Page 39
Heading "Special Rules"
"Master-crafted"
It can't use the table to unlock the Power axe stats.
Then you have a problem. Only if the weapon does not have any special rules do you look at the weapon itself to determine the type. On the other hand, it is only if the weapon has "its own unique close combat rules" that you treat it as an AP 3 Melee weapon with those additional rules.
There's no such thing as a generic AP3 power weapon: It's either a sword, an axe, a maul or a lance, or it must have its own unique rules. Those are the options given in the rulebook on page 61.
Kaldor wrote:Well, that's confusing as hell for challenges. if MSS takes effect at the start of the assault phase, but a challenge is issued at the start of the fight sub-phase, when does MSS actually take effect? Before or after the challenger/challengee are moved?
Depends. Sometimes MSS will probably go first and sometimes it'll go at the same time. Really needs to be clarified.
This is really bizzare, did they nerf Mind Shackle Scarabs (MSS)?
The Necron FAQ for MSS says at the beginning of the Fight Sub-phase. It's just the first thing you do, period.
BRB says you do many things in this sub-phase, the first being to pick a combat... then declare a challenge... then start at init step 10 and work down... etc, etc... (see summary on page 429 for reference and order... as well, page 20 and 22 for details)... Even page 64, issuing challenge, qualify's the challenge issuing as beginning of fight sub-phase, before blows are struck...
So... unless FAQ'd further, is the order of operation
FIGHT Sub-phase
MSS goes off in all combats, determine which model if any in base to base and resolve
Pick Combat
Issue Challenge
Init steps....
If this is correct, then MSS just got a nerf and would only work in a challenge on round's 2+ after a challenge round was fought and only if all parties live...
Tactica wrote:This is really bizzare, did they nerf Mind Shackle Scarabs (MSS)?
The Necron FAQ for MSS says at the beginning of the Fight Sub-phase. It's just the first thing you do, period.
BRB says you do many things in this sub-phase, the first being to pick a combat... then declare a challenge... then start at init step 10 and work down... etc, etc... (see summary on page 429 for reference and order... as well, page 20 and 22 for details)... Even page 64, issuing challenge, qualify's the challenge issuing as beginning of fight sub-phase, before blows are struck...
So... unless FAQ'd further, is the order of operation
FIGHT Sub-phase
MSS goes off in all combats, determine which model if any in base to base and resolve
Pick Combat
Issue Challenge
Init steps....
If this is correct, then MSS just got a nerf and would only work in a challenge on round's 2+ after a challenge round was fought and only if all parties live...
Thoughts...
Cheers,
I believe page 9 of the rule book clears this up. If two events happen at the same, who ever turn it is gets to decide when it happens.
Sigmundr wrote:I'm fairly sure the bosspole allows a reroll of a failed LD test, not a failed morale check. if so, and MSS specifically states LD test or bad things happen, then we should get the reroll =)
You're going to want to reread the bosspole. It only allows re-rolls on morale tests...not any Ld check.
If they happened at the same time, I'd agree with you... pg 9, exceptions dictates. Whoevers player turn it is resolves the order.
However, do they happen at the same time?
BRB: Fight Sub-phase has steps. First, pick a combat.... Next, dertimine challenges, Third, go to Init steps... etc.... so, the BRB seems to indicate in multiple locations (see prev post) that there are steps to the Fight Sub-phase and outlines them in detail in pg 20 and pg 429...
Necron FAQ: seems to state MSS happens at the start of the Sub-phase, period.
So, wouldn't the MSS always go before anything else... at the beginning... before you ever pick a combat or resolve challenges?
If they happened at the same time, I'd agree with you... pg 9, exceptions dictates. Whoevers player turn it is resolves the order.
However, do they happen at the same time?
BRB: Fight Sub-phase has steps. First, pick a combat.... Next, dertimine challenges, Third, go to Init steps... etc.... so, the BRB seems to indicate in multiple locations (see prev post) that there are steps to the Fight Sub-phase and outlines them in detail in pg 20 and pg 429...
Necron FAQ: seems to state MSS happens at the start of the Sub-phase, period.
So, wouldn't the MSS always go before anything else... at the beginning... before you ever pick a combat or resolve challenges?
Am I missing something?
Cheers,
Actually a challenge occurs at the beginning of the fight-subphase... same as the wording for MSS, so they are simultaneous.
A Town Called Malus wrote:I'm going to be using an Ethereal in challenges. Go on, kill him. I dare you.
lol All I see is bunch of Fire Warriors prodding Ethereal with a sharp stick towards charging Khorne Daemon.
Better that Ethereal die and get us Preferred Enemy than our entire unit of Fire Warriors get wiped out.
If we Tau get Aun'shi back in our next Codex then we might actually have a second character who can win in a challenge (the first being Farsight).
He was WS5, S3, T3, W3, I5, A4, Ld10 with a 4+ invulnerable save.
He could use his attacks to lower the number of enemy attacks (so if he gave up two attacks, the enemy lost two attacks) to a minimum of 1. His Honour Blade gave him +2 strength (so makes him S5) and always wounded an enemy if he rolled a 6 to hit, with no armour save allowed.
Gangrel767 wrote:Actually a challenge occurs at the beginning of the fight-subphase... same as the wording for MSS, so they are simultaneous.
Interesting... the challenge language is not that cut and dry. It says it happens at the beginning, before blows are struck... and you can only have a challenge after you have selected a combat... and page 429 seems to clarify when challenges occur beyond any question. MSS on the other hand, must occur at the start... in theory, before you even pick a combat.
I encourage you to look at pg 20. Furthermore, you may wish to look at pg. 429.
If there is an order to the Fight Sub-phase... (there appears to be)...
1. Choose a Combat
2. Declare a challenge
3. Init 10 pile in of models
4. etc... etc
The language used for picking a challenge has a different qualifier for when it occurs, it has to happen before blows are struck... and furthermore, on page 429, we are given an exact time for it to occur.
Thus, one does wonder, is the MSS entry in the FAQ an oops, or did they mean to nerf it somewhat so that it was only useful in a challenge for turn 2+?
gpfunk wrote:Man, if what everyone is saying about Mind Shackle Scarabs is true, then we have the ultimate 1 on 1 combatants in the universe right here.
Overlord with Weave and MSS.
Good by Draigo, Calgar, Abaddon, Ghazzy...you just got beat by a dirt cheap non-named IC.
Is it possible for mob rule to help out Ork characters? Will they get to take this test at LD 10 if there are at least ten boyz in the unit? Will we get to use our Boyz rerolls on the MSS roll?
Calgar automatically passes, so...
Calgar automatically passes Morale tests, not leadership tests. So he can be hit by the scarabs. And he can be pinned, as pinning is a Leadership check, not a Morale check.
Thus, one does wonder, is the MSS entry in the FAQ an oops, or did they mean to nerf it somewhat so that it was only useful in a challenge for turn 2+?
Anyway, just my read...
Cheers,
Well actually if your turn and you've been stuck in a challenge, you can declare the effects of MSS first and then use glorious intervention so you can still fight like normal.
Sigvatr wrote:I can totally see Tau doing everything to get rid of their blue-faced leaders as fast as possible
Was joking about this at the local GW on Tuesday. Every Tau army will be led by an Ethereal who will deploy in the highest piece of terrain available and start his first turn by hurling himself off of it. As long as it is high enough, he'll Instant Death from the fall, and he gets no armor save for jumping down. BAM! Instant Preferred Enemy for the whole army. If you make all your morale tests....
I'd do the very same if I was a Tau player. Preferred Enemy is incredibly good now as it also works with shooting and for a shooty army like the Tau...yes please
Rawrgyle wrote:I think everyone needs to stop for a moment and think about one other thing in this conversation....
PRESCISON SHOTS
Or more than this, precision strikes. Precision strikes are going to kill your nobz way faster than challenges ever will. Challenges are A problem, but not the WORST problem.
Really, all that the challenge system does is further reinforce what the rest of the rules system has already caused - units that were okay to good in close combat just became terrible, and units that were good to very good in close combat just became friggin fantastic. Before, there was a smooth gradient of close combat quality across the codices. 6th has split them into men and boys. You will either beat face, or don't bother at all. Challenges are just another way to help reinforce this general trend.
Plus, like other things in 6th, this rule seems to be designed to move the game away from competitive and towards fun.
ShadarLogoth wrote:Hidden PFists have been way to strong for way too long. They are the very reason for the Eternal Warrior balancing act we've been dealing with since 4th.
Sure, the old system was unwieldy, but this could have been fixed in a lot of ways (including changing eternal warrior).
As it is, though, they went way, way too far. In a world where your initiative matters, there is no reason to every put a power fist on a W1 model. For however silly it was for a space marine sergeant to be able to take down Dante, we're now in a world wherein an imperial guard sergeant can now pistol whip a space marine sergeant with a power fist to death before he even gets a chance to get a swing in. That's no less ridiculous.
It feels like their current system takes things way, way too far in the otherwise right direction.
gpfunk wrote:Man, if what everyone is saying about Mind Shackle Scarabs is true, then we have the ultimate 1 on 1 combatants in the universe right here.
Overlord with Weave and MSS.
Good by Draigo, Calgar, Abaddon, Ghazzy...you just got beat by a dirt cheap non-named IC.
Is it possible for mob rule to help out Ork characters? Will they get to take this test at LD 10 if there are at least ten boyz in the unit? Will we get to use our Boyz rerolls on the MSS roll?
Calgar automatically passes, so...
Calgar automatically passes Morale tests, not leadership tests. So he can be hit by the scarabs. And he can be pinned, as pinning is a Leadership check, not a Morale check.
So, he still has a 50/50 chance of turning your Mind Shackle Scarab guy into a pile of scrap metal, since he's LD10.
And, if the Space Marine player's brain isn't made of mush, he'll make sure he has other marines in base contact to make you randomize it.
Sure, you could technically have Calgar hit himself. If the marine player is smart, he'll shoot any overlords off the board as a matter of principle, since most come in CCBs at the moment.
But hey, this game is all about dice. I had my 26~ pt Sergeant kill a 200+ pt Nurgle Sorcerer Bike Lord in one round of a challenge. Not supposed to happen, but...
EDIT:
I also change my answer to anyone who takes a challenge on Marneus Calgar or Abaddon is asking to get creamed by something stupid like MSS. I'd take the challenge on the Thunder Hammer Sergeant accompanying him. Really. Have Marneus Calgar turn the unit into paste while the SGT eats his own Thunder Hammer. Or not, since he still has a 7/16 chance of passing it on his LD9.
Example #1: Mordrak is a WS 6, W 4 200 Point HQ with a Master crafted 4 swings base Daemon Hammer and an Iron Halo, by a 30 point Power Fist Captian in a basic SMTac squad, can issue a challenge. We both swing at Int 1, Mordrak prolly hits 3-4 times, and kills on all 3-4 dice rolls. The Tac capt make 1 hit and causes 1 wound, which lets say i fail. Str 8 against T4 and not Eternal Warrior. POOF.... really....REALLY....
Example #2: Give a Purifier Knight of the Flame a Warding Staff. 2++ save in CC, and have him challenge a Str 8 T 8 W6 Tyranid HQ choice(Assuming they got a 1 roll with Biomancy Psyc stuff) that is like 230 points. Ok so you hit me 5 times, ok the odds are actually pretty decent that I live with a 2++ save.. lets just stand here and compare the fact that I am a 36 point model and you are 230. Oh and btw I can Hammerhand with my squad and actually hit you with an AP3 Power Weapon, so as long as I can make 2++ saves, I can actually win...
I have had both of these things happen, Example 2, the Knight lasted the top/bottom of assault phase 2 1/2 times...while the rest of the unit just stood there hanging out...
So far for Nids challenges have been generally a good thing.
We have Tervigons who can do a Smash with crushing claws and do S10 2+D3A AP2 and if you add in toxin (and we always take Toxin) re-roll all failed to wounds. And that in not on the charge or with any Biomancy.
We have the LW/BS Prime with ScyTal. You go at I1, I ignore armor, strike at I5, reroll 1's and can ID. And I can take Toxin on him as well. In a deathstar he can take the chalanges from the 1 wound wonder so our big guns can wreck face.
And we have the biggest of the bad. Swarmlord. Ignores armour, 4+ Inuln, makes you re-roll Invuls and IDs anything without EW at I6 and WS9. And that's before you buff him with Biomancy and make him really scary.
As for MSS, I just make sure I line up my charges well before hand so I am not engaged with the guy who has them. If he is not in BtB or withing 2" of someone in BtB he is not engaged and can not declare challenges.
As for Dante, people around here are cutting off the Ax and replacing it with a sword if they don't want it to strike last. So it is either a UPW and shape doesn't matter or it is WYSIWYG, so they are good either way.
Gloomfang wrote:As for Dante, people around here are cutting off the Ax and replacing it with a sword if they don't want it to strike last. So it is either a UPW and shape doesn't matter or it is WYSIWYG, so they are good either way.
imho, that's modelling for advantage...
Had my 2nd game last night and we had lots of challenges during it. They were intense and a lot of fun! I love the new mechanic.
Andilus Greatsword wrote:imho, that's modelling for advantage...
Had my 2nd game last night and we had lots of challenges during it. They were intense and a lot of fun! I love the new mechanic.
Not really. Most people around here run some sort of Successor chapter (Honestly its so they can use either BA, SW or C:SM as thier army.) So while they are using Dante's rules, it is not actully Dante.
And even if it is Dante the rules state to give the models the power weapon you want them to have. So I wouldn't equate it with MFA any more than I would having to rebase a model becasue the base size just got changed or was not perviously stated. Happened to a lot of Tervigons when the model came out and people had them on Carnifax bases (and they were WAY to short).
Challenges....My Wolf Lord ran into a Necron lord last game with Mind Shackle Scarrabs. He challenges, I have to accept or the Wolf Lord just runs and hides. Wolf lord fails his Leadership test on 3d6 and beats himself with his thunderhammer while the necron lord strikes him down with a war sythe. Not even Saga Of the Bear and a SS could save him in this challenge. I guess necron in CC are like fighting yourself now.
Yup, MSS are even better than they were in 5e.
Moral of the story is: Never charge Necron Lords with solo Characters or let them charge you.
Now, if you have your squad with you, you actually have some options:
1) If it's your turn, make sure no-one important is in b2b with the lord. Decide that MSS is resolved before challenges. Now, you can challenge that Lord and possibly kill him (though not likely, with Lord most likely being 2+/3++ and T5 and with him having the best non-unique CC weapon in game)
2) If it is the Necron players turn, he will most likely decide to first do Challenge and MSS after that. Your only options is to make sure your unit has a cheap character (sergeant) and feed him to the Lord.
Had my first 6th ed game yesterday (finally!). Decided to try out the Challenge rules with a Lord vs some Eldar guy with a funny hat. He had rerollable invul saves and kept using his witch blade, meaning I got to use my 2+ save. I charged in turn 2. He finally killed himself with MSS on the bottom of turn 5.
It was like a Metapod vs Metapod fight.
Moral of the story: avoid challenges between guys with good saves. Without weight of attacks, you're going to be there a long, long time.
I've been really reading the rules for close combat assaults and for how MSS would resolve in an assault and this is what I've come to see.
References are BRB: page 9, 20, 64 and Necron faq 6th ed
Charge sub phase begins
1. declare charges
2. assaulter rolls charge range
3. move all charging models into charge range (no enemy models being charged move)
Charge sub phase ends
Fight sub phase begins
1. choose a combat
2. Issue challenge and/or use MSS this happens simultaneously so controlling player chooses order it happens.
3. both players pile in any models at Initiative 10 and make all attacks with initiative 10 profiles.
4. repeat last step until you go from 10 to 1.
5. resolve combat
So generally it would seem that a necron player will often choose to make the challenge first if he initiates the assault in this instance and the opponent will often want the MSS to resolve after challenges are given if he's the assaulting general.
Freman Bloodglaive wrote:It's the 41st Millennia. What are you doing still hitting people with pointy sticks.
Just shoot them in the head.
Pref with a Manticore Squadron.
It does seem like the most effective way to deal with this is to try and engineer a situation that means MSS is always wasted on something you don't mind losing either by keeping your IC away (they can change squads and move to somewhere more useful but few people do this) or tarpit with an expendable squad that can eat the challenge with a Sergeant or has no reason not to turn the challenge down and hope that you can keep them stuck in the open post combat for some shooting.
This is a scenario where if your opponent is depending on it as a tactic then you should be trying to deny them the opportunity to use it rather than figuring out a way to deal with it once it happens.
I don't have the Necron book and don't play against them so I don't know if there is a lot of Fearless going around (I'm assuming there is just based on fluff) but if it's an option pinning weapons have the potential to stop a unit in it's tracks and all Barrage weapons pin. It's a long shot but it has the potential to stop an impending charge.
Freman Bloodglaive wrote:It's the 41st Millennia. What are you doing still hitting people with pointy sticks.
Just shoot them in the head.
If the defensive technology has advanced to a point that it defeats the readily available weapons (i.e. Power Armour vs. Autoguns, Lasguns, Bolters and even Autocannons) it actually makes sense for the guy wearing it to get into close combat and finish his foes off with specialised weapon that DOES defeat the defensive technology (Power Weapons, Plasma Pistols, Meltaguns, other short-to-melee-range weapons).
Gloomfang wrote:So far for Nids challenges have been generally a good thing.
We have Tervigons who can do a Smash with crushing claws and do S10 2+D3A AP2 and if you add in toxin (and we always take Toxin) re-roll all failed to wounds. And that in not on the charge or with any Biomancy.
We have the LW/BS Prime with ScyTal. You go at I1, I ignore armor, strike at I5, reroll 1's and can ID. And I can take Toxin on him as well. In a deathstar he can take the chalanges from the 1 wound wonder so our big guns can wreck face.
And we have the biggest of the bad. Swarmlord. Ignores armour, 4+ Inuln, makes you re-roll Invuls and IDs anything without EW at I6 and WS9. And that's before you buff him with Biomancy and make him really scary.
As for MSS, I just make sure I line up my charges well before hand so I am not engaged with the guy who has them. If he is not in BtB or withing 2" of someone in BtB he is not engaged and can not declare challenges.
As for Dante, people around here are cutting off the Ax and replacing it with a sword if they don't want it to strike last. So it is either a UPW and shape doesn't matter or it is WYSIWYG, so they are good either way.
I agree with you man and who ever says that Tyranids dont challenge is stupied when the Nids attacked a planit the Swarmlord arrived and the leader of the Space Marins fought the Swarmlord in a one on one duel. The Hive Mind lets the Swarmlord do what he wants in battle cuz he is the best Nid in the Hive Fleets and the smartest next to the Hive Mind
Andilus Greatsword wrote:imho, that's modelling for advantage...
Had my 2nd game last night and we had lots of challenges during it. They were intense and a lot of fun! I love the new mechanic.
Not really. Most people around here run some sort of Successor chapter (Honestly its so they can use either BA, SW or C:SM as thier army.) So while they are using Dante's rules, it is not actully Dante.
And even if it is Dante the rules state to give the models the power weapon you want them to have. So I wouldn't equate it with MFA any more than I would having to rebase a model becasue the base size just got changed or was not perviously stated. Happened to a lot of Tervigons when the model came out and people had them on Carnifax bases (and they were WAY to short).
Pg 53 in the BA Codex. Even though it states that it is a two handed power weapon, the sentence also gives it a name The Executioner's Axe. If the power weapon did not have a specific name, you could model it as a power sword or a power maul or a unique weapon, such like the death cult assassins which only states that it wields 2 power weapons.
Dante Carries a power axe. Modeling differently would be Modeling for Advantage.
Blame GW for their crappy rule set. And since BA has been FAQ'd did not mentioned otherwise, it is still a power axe.
Andilus Greatsword wrote:imho, that's modelling for advantage...
Had my 2nd game last night and we had lots of challenges during it. They were intense and a lot of fun! I love the new mechanic.
Not really. Most people around here run some sort of Successor chapter (Honestly its so they can use either BA, SW or C:SM as thier army.) So while they are using Dante's rules, it is not actully Dante.
And even if it is Dante the rules state to give the models the power weapon you want them to have. So I wouldn't equate it with MFA any more than I would having to rebase a model becasue the base size just got changed or was not perviously stated. Happened to a lot of Tervigons when the model came out and people had them on Carnifax bases (and they were WAY to short).
Pg 53 in the BA Codex. Even though it states that it is a two handed power weapon, the sentence also gives it a name The Executioner's Axe. If the power weapon did not have a specific name, you could model it as a power sword or a power maul or a unique weapon, such like the death cult assassins which only states that it wields 2 power weapons.
Dante Carries a power axe. Modeling differently would be Modeling for Advantage.
Blame GW for their crappy rule set. And since BA has been FAQ'd did not mentioned otherwise, it is still a power axe.
Just because it is called "The Executioners Axe" doesn't mean it is an axe. It is the rules which determine what type of weapon it is, not a fluffy name. If the rules describe it as a power weapon then it could be a sword, axe, maul or lance.
As GW, by making the points values for different power weapons equal in regards to generic power weapons, has effectively stated that all Power Weapons are equal in balance there is no advantage in Dante having a sword over an axe, ruleswise. If he has a sword he strikes earlier (advantage) but at a lower strength (disadvantage) and with worse AP (disadvantage).
If GW had intended Dante's weapon to specifically be a power axe then they would have said so in the FAQ, like they did for Kharn's Gorechild and Typhus' Manreaper.
I managed to charge a Hive Tyrant with a half a squad of Melta Vets. On the first turn, I challenged the Hive Tyrant, and since he was alone he couldn't refuse. He Roflpwned the Sarge, but the squad managed to pass the LD 6 test to stay in combat.
The squad was eaten in the subsequent turn, but it was one turn I didn't have to deal with the Flyrant eating my tanks.
But seriously, challenges just wreck CC powerhouses. Abaddon or Kharn marches in with 7 attacks each and have to pulverize some sergeant? What the heck dumb game is this?
Also, good job GW, way to FAQ Kharn to make him hit last with a 3+, T4 power axe. Good god
Twiqbal wrote:But seriously, challenges just wreck CC powerhouses. Abaddon or Kharn marches in with 7 attacks each and have to pulverize some sergeant? What the heck dumb game is this?
Do they? I'd much rather have my CC powerhouse charge in and kill only a Sergeant so the squad stays in combat for my opponent's turn. That way, my beatstick can't be shot at, and I'll mulch the squad in my opponent's CC phase anyways.
I think challenges are, if anything, skewed in favor of tough CC characters, generally speaking.
I regularly send in Abaddon or Kharn in alone because I can. Not against 50 Boys, but against 5 or 10 terminators? Abaddon used to be able to murder his way through 250 points of terminators on a charge no problem, but now I'm not so sure.
I guess you're technically correct that you can just use a champ to soak up potential challenges, but then I'm not sure what the point of them is.
Twiqbal wrote:I regularly send in Abaddon or Kharn in alone because I can. Not against 50 Boys, but against 5 or 10 terminators? Abaddon used to be able to murder his way through 250 points of terminators on a charge no problem, but now I'm not so sure.
I guess you're technically correct that you can just use a champ to soak up potential challenges, but then I'm not sure what the point of them is.
I keep a Prime in with my Swarmlord for that reason. With a BS/LS and PE and toxin they can kill almost anything short of Abbadon or other monster (and in that case I'd just use the Swarmlord. He murders units like that.) It gives you some tactical flexability about who to fight and when you want to fight them.
Oh and I do agree with the name is not a rule. My example is that I can make any Counts-As army and model them anyway I want as long as I use the rules. My version of Dante can be a demon with a flaming whip called "The Widow Maker" and as long as he follows the rules of the model (Base, points, size and rules) he is perfectly leagle. At the end of the day it is a Master Cafted Power Weapon.
If GW had intended Dante's weapon to specifically be a power axe then they would have said so in the FAQ, like they did for Kharn's Gorechild and Typhus' Manreaper.
Or they could like...I don't know...call it an axe?
If GW had intended Dante's weapon to specifically be a power axe then they would have said so in the FAQ, like they did for Kharn's Gorechild and Typhus' Manreaper.
Or they could like...I don't know...call it an axe?
Seriously, some people make me wonder...
But they didn't call it an axe. They called it a Mastercafted Power Weapon. So I am not allowed to use Dante in my Flesh Tearers army? His name is Dante Chapter Master of the Blood Angels. Gabriel Seth is the Chapter Master of the Fleash Tearers, not Dante.
No I can use Dante in my Flesh Tearers. I just have to call him something else.
Names are not rules. The name of his weapon is The Axe Mortalis. Its rules are that it is a Mastercrafted Power Weapon. It can be called whatever you want and you can model it anyway you want. At the end of the day it still uses the rules for either a Power Weapon (WYSISYG) or UPW (And the shape doesn't matter).
Gloomfang wrote:Names are not rules. The name of his weapon is The Axe Mortalis. Its rules are that it is a Mastercrafted Power Weapon. It can be called whatever you want and you can model it anyway you want. At the end of the day it still uses the rules for either a Power Weapon (WYSISYG) or UPW (And the shape doesn't matter).
Then by your logic I can use Necron Lychguard with Hyperphase Swords, and claim that they are power axes. Why wouldn't I? The Necrons typically swing last at I2 anyway, so I1 won't be any worse.
However, if I were to say that a Hyperphase Sword is an axe, almost everyone would call me either TFG or else just an idiot. And if you honestly want to claim that the Axe Mortalis is anything but an axe, then you are TFG, and have proven GW foolish for giving its players enough credibility to understand that something called an axe, is an axe.
Anyway, here's a wonderful court case that sums up your foolishness nicely. It's used in law school as a reference.
Spoiler:
Canadian Law.
Subject: Is a pony, fortuitously saddled with a feather pillow, a "small bird" within the meaning of the Ontario Small Birds Act?
IN THE SUPREME COURT: REGINA V. OJIBWAY
Blue, J. August, 1965
This is an appeal by the Crown by way of a stated case from a decision of the magistrate acquitting the accused of a charge under the Small Birds Act, R.S.O., 1960, c. 724, s. 2. The facts are not in dispute. Fred Ojibway, an Indian, was riding his pony through Queen's Park on January 2, 1965. Being impoverished, and having been forced to pledge his saddle, he substituted a downy pillow in lieu of the said saddle. On this particular day the accused's misfortune was further heightened by the circumstance of his pony breaking its foreleg. In accord with Indian custom, the accused then shot the pony to relieve it of its awkwardness. The accused was then charged with having breached the Small Birds Act, s. 2 of which states: "2. Anyone maiming, injuring or killing small birds is guilty of an offence and subject to a fine not in excess of two hundred dollars." The learned magistrate acquitted the accused holding, in fact, that he had killed his horse and not a small bird. With respect, I cannot agree.
In light of the definition section my course is quite clear. Section 1 defines "bird" as "a two legged animal covered with feathers." There can be no doubt that this case is covered by this section.
Counsel for the accused made several ingenious arguments to which, in fairness, I must address myself. He submitted that the evidence of the expert clearly concluded that the animal in question was a pony and not a bird, but this is not the issue. We are not interested in whether the animal in question is a bird or not in fact, but whether it is one in law. Statutory interpretation has forced many a horse to eat birdseed for the rest of its life.
Counsel also contended that the neighing noise emitted by the animal could not possibly be produced by a bird. With respect, the sounds emitted by an animal are irrelevant to its nature, for a bird is no less a bird because it is silent.
Counsel for the accused also argued that since there was evidence to show accused had ridden the animal, this pointed to the fact that it could not be a bird but was actually a pony. Obviously, this avoids the issue. The issue is not whether the animal was ridden or not, but whether it was shot or not, for to ride a pony or a bird is of no offence at all. I believe counsel now sees his mistake.
Counsel contends that the iron shoes found on the animal decisively disqualify it from being a bird. I must inform counsel, however, that how an animal dresses is of no consequence to this court.
Counsel relied on the decision in Re Chicadee, where he contends that in similar circumstances the accused was aquitted. However, this is a horse of a different colour. A close reading of that case indicates that the animal in question there was not a small bird, but, in fact, a midget of a much larger species. Therefore, that case is inapplicable to our facts.
Counsel finally submits that the word "small" in the title Small Birds Act refers not to "Birds" but to "Act", making it The Small Act relating to Birds. With respect, counsel did not do his homework very well, for the Large Birds Act, R.S.O. 1960, c. 725 is just as small. If pressed, I need only refer to the Small Loans Act, R.S.O. 1960, c. 727 which is twice as large as the Large Birds Act.
It remains then to state my reason for judgment which, simply, is as follows: Different things may take on the same meaning for different purposes. For the purpose of the Small Birds Act, all two-legged, feather-covered animals are birds. This, of course, does not imply that only two-legged animals qualify, for the legislative intent is to make two legs merely the minimum requirement. The statute therefore contemplated multi-legged animals with feathers as well. Counsel submits that having regard to the purpose of the statute only small animals "naturally covered" with feathers could have been contemplated. However, had this been the intention of the legislature, I am certain that the phrase "naturally covered" would have been expressly inserted just as "Long" was inserted in the Longshoreman's Act.
Therefore, a horse with feathers on its back must be deemed for the purposes of this Act to be a bird, and a fortiori, a pony with feathers on its back is a small bird.
Counsel posed the following rhetorical question: If the pillow had been removed prior to the shooting, would the animal still be a bird? To this let me answer rhetorically: Is a bird any less of a bird without its feathers?
Gloomfang wrote:Names are not rules. The name of his weapon is The Axe Mortalis. Its rules are that it is a Mastercrafted Power Weapon. It can be called whatever you want and you can model it anyway you want. At the end of the day it still uses the rules for either a Power Weapon (WYSISYG) or UPW (And the shape doesn't matter).
Then by your logic I can use Necron Lychguard with Hyperphase Swords, and claim that they are power axes. Why wouldn't I? The Necrons typically swing last at I2 anyway, so I1 won't be any worse.
However, if I were to say that a Hyperphase Sword is an axe, almost everyone would call me either TFG or else just an idiot. And if you honestly want to claim that the Axe Mortalis is anything but an axe, then you are TFG, and have proven GW foolish for giving its players enough credibility to understand that something called an axe, is an axe.
Snide law case aside.
Yes you can put an axe on your Lychguard and have Hyperphase Axes. Just becasue you think it is stupid doesn't change the rules. If you think that is the case then do what the person in the little law case did and have GW AMEND THE LAW.
That said there are many power weapons in 40K. They ALL have diffrent names based on what the army using them calls them. It does not change the fact that they all use the rules for Power Weapons unless they are given a specific rule (Like Power Sword) in the Codex.
So if you look at the rules for Mephiston in the BA Codex, it doesn't say he has a force weapon (and that could be anything just like a power weapon), it says he has a Force Sword. Thats what makes it a Force Sword. Not the fact that the model comes like that. If GW wanted Phase Swords to only be Power Swords they would have put that in the Codex or they would have FAQed it like they did so many other weapons.
Gloomfang wrote:The name of his weapon is The Axe Mortalis
I shortened your post to the only part that makes sense.
And jfyi, Lych Guard have been clarified to have Hyperphase Swords. Power Swords.
You know, like Power SWORDS.
Ridiculous, I know. Power Swords turn out to be Power SWORDS. What was GW thinking?!
I don't see the point in arguing with you, tbh. If I was to play against you and you'd try to tell me that the AXE suddenly became a sword / staff, I'd not even bother deploying my forces and rather ask someone else to play with.
Gloomfang wrote:The name of his weapon is The Axe Mortalis
I shortened your post to the only part that makes sense.
And jfyi, Lych Guard have been clarified to have Hyperphase Swords. Power Swords.
You know, like Power SWORDS.
Ridiculous, I know. Power Swords turn out to be Power SWORDS. What was GW thinking?!
I don't see the point in arguing with you, tbh. If I was to play against you and you'd try to tell me that the AXE suddenly became a sword / staff, I'd not even bother deploying my forces and rather ask someone else to play with.
Nobody likes TFG.
Where was it clarified that Lychguard's Hyperphase swords are swords and not generic power weapons, as per their actual rules?
I see no mention in the FAQ.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Gloomfang wrote:
azazel the cat wrote:
Gloomfang wrote:Names are not rules. The name of his weapon is The Axe Mortalis. Its rules are that it is a Mastercrafted Power Weapon. It can be called whatever you want and you can model it anyway you want. At the end of the day it still uses the rules for either a Power Weapon (WYSISYG) or UPW (And the shape doesn't matter).
Then by your logic I can use Necron Lychguard with Hyperphase Swords, and claim that they are power axes. Why wouldn't I? The Necrons typically swing last at I2 anyway, so I1 won't be any worse.
However, if I were to say that a Hyperphase Sword is an axe, almost everyone would call me either TFG or else just an idiot. And if you honestly want to claim that the Axe Mortalis is anything but an axe, then you are TFG, and have proven GW foolish for giving its players enough credibility to understand that something called an axe, is an axe.
Snide law case aside.
Yes you can put an axe on your Lychguard and have Hyperphase Axes. Just becasue you think it is stupid doesn't change the rules. If you think that is the case then do what the person in the little law case did and have GW AMEND THE LAW.
That said there are many power weapons in 40K. They ALL have diffrent names based on what the army using them calls them. It does not change the fact that they all use the rules for Power Weapons unless they are given a specific rule (Like Power Sword) in the Codex.
So if you look at the rules for Mephiston in the BA Codex, it doesn't say he has a force weapon (and that could be anything just like a power weapon), it says he has a Force Sword. Thats what makes it a Force Sword. Not the fact that the model comes like that. If GW wanted Phase Swords to only be Power Swords they would have put that in the Codex or they would have FAQed it like they did so many other weapons.
Actually Mephiston has a generic power weapon now, as per the FAQ amendment "Var – Power Swords: In the bestiary and army list, replace all references to “power sword” with “power weapon”".
So you can cut off his stock sword and give him an axe if you want. Hell swap his sword for Dante's axe and give Dante Mephiston's sword
Sigvatr wrote:I shortened your post to the only part that makes sense.
And jfyi, Lych Guard have been clarified to have Hyperphase Swords. Power Swords.
You know, like Power SWORDS.
Ridiculous, I know. Power Swords turn out to be Power SWORDS. What was GW thinking?!
I don't see the point in arguing with you, tbh. If I was to play against you and you'd try to tell me that the AXE suddenly became a sword / staff, I'd not even bother deploying my forces and rather ask someone else to play with.
Nobody likes TFG.
Great news. Where is the link to where they updated the rules for Hyperphase Swords? Its good to have that info. It will save some time with argements. I just looked at the FAQ on GWs website and it doesn't have that clarrification.
And I am not arguing about Dante. I am arguing about my custom built Cain model in my Flesh Tearers army. I use him as the leader of my 2nd company. As the rules stated "Power Weapon" I built him with a big old relic blade I had in my bits box and called it "The Sword of Nod."
Now I have people like you telling me that my Custom built version of a model is WAAC and MFA even though he was built a long time ago. That I have to rip my custom built model and put and Axe on it because a peice of fluff that isn't even attached to my Chapter?
Sigvatr wrote:Digital Necron Codex. It's been quoted ago in the corresponding thread.
And yes, if you read "axe" as "sword", then it's TFG.
So it's only been changed in something which not everyone has access to? Well done GW, great plan there.
To the second part, no. If the rules, the limiting factors of the game, do not state that it is a specific type of weapon (which Dante's rules for his weapon does not) then it is not a specific type of weapon, regardless of its name. You are arguing RAI, not RAW.
Sigvatr wrote:Digital Necron Codex. It's been quoted ago in the corresponding thread.
And yes, if you read "axe" as "sword", then it's TFG.
Then they should have updated the FAQ on the website.
And back on topic.
I think that the problems with challanges is that they have way to many rules complications and cause a lot of arguments. Lord Commisards bow out, but people still need to use thier leadership. MSS and the timing. HoW attacks and the timing of those.
I am sure I will get used to it, but it causes a lot of debates.
hit someone with a bosspole. 
