Have the 6th Rulebook and went right through the fluff section. Nothing remarkable or even really new, GW is keeping the universe stagnant. Here's stuff that stands out regardless:

-Sisters of Silence may officially be gone. Black Ships are described as being crewed by Adepts of the Adeptus Telepathica with Inquistors as captains.
-The Iron Men and their war are alluded to, stating that during the Age of Technology mankind relied heavily on robots. Short before the Age of Strife they rebelled, and a massive war took place that saw such devastation that it helped herald in the Age of Strife
-The largest Ork Waaagh!'s the Galaxy has ever seen took place shortly before the Horus Heresy. They seem to make current Waaagh!'s seem like picnics. Horus' role in defeating them is what earned him the title Warmaster
-The Inquisition still retains the 3 classic Ordo Militants it seems. It is flatly said that the Grey Knights are the Ordo Militant of the Ordo Malleus, the Deathwatch Ordo Xenos, while the SoB maintain "close ties" with the Ordo Hereticus. The SoB don't seem to be formally an Ordo Militant but a de facto one.
-The Tau-Ultramarines alliance or Tau ties to the Emperor is never alluded to. Beyond the Allied chart there's no explanation why the Astartes and Tau are brothers in arms.
-The excerpt about the Golden Throne malfunctioning is in there, but it's the exact same one from 5th Edition. No progress. The only new bit of info really is that the Golden Throne requires far more psyker sacrifices than it used to, about four times the original level.
-There's a new ship called the "Blade of Eternity" that was lost in the Warp over 20,000 years ago and seems to appear again before any major Chaos incursion.
-In M39, 5 great heroes returned that are comparable to the Primarchs. They do a bunch of great stuff and oversee a bunch of great victories but vanish suddenly vanish.
-A major war against the Hrud occurred in M35, the "Hrud Rising". If GW is ever going to add another Xenos race (unlikely), but guess is it'll be Hrud by this point.
-In late M41, much of Segmentum Pacificus is in full-fledged rebellion
-The Adeptus Mechanicus is no longer part of the Adeptus Terra. It is separate and reports directly to the High Lords of Terra, like the Ecclesiarchy.
-During the Dark Age of Technology, mankind went on an alien-extermination campaign. Many xenos species were wiped out and their worlds colonized by humanity. Humanity had some sort of relations with the Eldar during this time, and also mentioned Orks (undoubtedly meaning wars with them). Today, often invasions by lesser alien races on "Imperial" worlds are just attempts to reclaim their lost homelands
-A few new Xenos seem to be mentioned. The Zygo live on Camgia have successfully fought off Imperial invasions for the last 500 years, The Dracolith, an emerging alien empire mentioned in 5th edition, are described as being chrystalline beings. There's a big picture with an illustrtion of lots of interesting-looking minor Xenos races. However none are identified by name. Frustrating.
-At one point, an Ork Warboss known as "The Beast" seemed to have united the Ork race (or at least most of it) and nearly took over the galaxy in an "apocalyptic greenskin uprising". This was during the Age of Imperium and is described as one of its darkest hours.
-Dark Eldar don't just seem to not use Farseers and Warlocks and what have you, they are stated to not be psychic altogether. No explanation as to how this difference from Craftworld Eldar took place.
-Tyranid Hive Fleets encountered are described as consisting of millions of Bio-ships each with millions of Tyranids on board. So it seems that Hive Fleets can easily approach the trillions figure in size.
-Tyranids fight with each other now. Hive Fleets compete with each other and clash over food on planets. The Hive Mind is still stated to be directing the overall Tyranid race regardless of this, this is probably the stupidest thing in the Codex.
-The Tyranid Hive Fleets seen so far are just a splinter of the 1 furthest tendril of the main Tyranid invasion force in the galactic void.
-The section on Chaos is entitled "The Greatest Threat". They get a lot of fluff dedicated to them, Chaos as a whole has a level of fluff coverage (almost 20 pages) only the Imperium surpasses in page amount. Hyperbole, or is GW making Chaos out to be the big baddie again? With downgrading the Tyranids to fighting one another, who knows.
-Chaos is definetly displayed in a more united fashion of CSM, Daemons, and heretics working towards a common goal. CSM/Daemon/Cultist fluff is all intermingled together and their models showcase are intertwined together under the title "The Great Enemy"
-Non-Marine Chaos followers have their own section of fluff (though it says what we already know), preparation for GW to give the Lost and the Damned a greater role in the future perhaps.
-The actions of the battles between the 4 Chaos Gods in the Warp directly effects the Materium in a more material fashion. For instance, if Nurgle is doing well in the war before he is inevitably pushed back, there will be rampant plague in the galaxy.
-A funny tidbit about Alpha Legion taking over Imperial communications outposts and sending false reports for decades at a time (not relevant, just found it funny...)
-Abaddon's Black Crusades are described more as repeated blows to the Imperium to gradually weaken it and as part of a greater plan, rather then 13 separate attempts to march on Terra. None of the Black Crusades are described even as failures. GW trying to end the stereotype of Faildabbon I take it.
-The Ulumeathic League has been destroyed
-The Space Marines are only connected to the Imperial hierarchy by a dotted arrow (everyone else has a straight solid line), perhaps indicating their further dependence
-Not only are Tau and Smurfs not allies, there's accounts of them fighting in 999.[[M41]]. The allied chart is making less sense.

On a separate note, the Dark Angels seem to take center stage here. They have cover art, back art, and the intro art for the Space Marine section.

Thank you for going through the book and writing this down. My own is still in the mail, but should arrive soonish.

Comments below:

Harriticus wrote:Sisters of Silence may officially be gone. Black Ships are described as being crewed by Adepts of the Adeptus Telepathica with Inquistors as captains.

Well, if we're talking about studio material, they were never "in" in the first place. The bit about the crews is interesting, though - I think in the old fluff it was said that Inquisition Black Ships are separate from Telepathica ones. I'm guessing security is then handled solely by ISTs now, no more SoB?

Harriticus wrote:The Inquisition still retains the 3 classic Ordo Militants it seems. It is flatly said that the Grey Knights are the Ordo Militant of the Ordo Malleus, the Deathwatch Ordo Xenos, while the SoB maintain "close ties" with the Ordo Hereticus. The SoB don't seem to be formally an Ordo Militant but a de facto one.

So the Deathwatch still exists? That is good to know.
The "de facto" role of the SoB fits their previous descriptions, I guess.

Harriticus wrote:The Tau-Ultramarines alliance or Tau ties to the Emperor is never alluded to. Beyond the Allied chart there's no explanation why the Astartes and Tau are brothers in arms.

Heh, good to know. Where did those rumors come from, anyways?

Harriticus wrote:In late M41, much of Segmentum Pacificus is in full-fledged rebellion

Interesting, also.

Harriticus wrote:The Adeptus Mechanicus is no longer part of the Adeptus Terra. It is separate and reports directly to the High Lords of Terra, like the Ecclesiarchy.

I thought this had always been the case?

Harriticus wrote:On a separate note, the Dark Angels seem to take center stage here. They have cover art, back art, and the intro art for the Space Marine section.

Fits to what we heard of the 6E starter box, I suppose.

Lynata wrote:Thank you for going through the book and writing this down. My own is still in the mail, but should arrive soonish.

Comments below:

Harriticus wrote:Sisters of Silence may officially be gone. Black Ships are described as being crewed by Adepts of the Adeptus Telepathica with Inquistors as captains.

Well, if we're talking about studio material, they were never "in" in the first place. The bit about the crews is interesting, though - I think in the old fluff it was said that Inquisition Black Ships are separate from Telepathica ones. I'm guessing security is then handled solely by ISTs now, no more SoB?

Harriticus wrote:The Inquisition still retains the 3 classic Ordo Militants it seems. It is flatly said that the Grey Knights are the Ordo Militant of the Ordo Malleus, the Deathwatch Ordo Xenos, while the SoB maintain "close ties" with the Ordo Hereticus. The SoB don't seem to be formally an Ordo Militant but a de facto one.

So the Deathwatch still exists? That is good to know.
The "de facto" role of the SoB fits their previous descriptions, I guess.

Harriticus wrote:The Tau-Ultramarines alliance or Tau ties to the Emperor is never alluded to. Beyond the Allied chart there's no explanation why the Astartes and Tau are brothers in arms.

Heh, good to know. Where did those rumors come from, anyways?

Harriticus wrote:In late M41, much of Segmentum Pacificus is in full-fledged rebellion

Interesting, also.

Harriticus wrote:The Adeptus Mechanicus is no longer part of the Adeptus Terra. It is separate and reports directly to the High Lords of Terra, like the Ecclesiarchy.

I thought this had always been the case?

Harriticus wrote:On a separate note, the Dark Angels seem to take center stage here. They have cover art, back art, and the intro art for the Space Marine section.

Fits to what we heard of the 6E starter box, I suppose.

Deathwatch certainly exists and is mentioned 2-3 times from what I saw, including how many kill-teams they have on Armageddon and what not.

As for the Tau-Smurfs alliance, it came from a rumor thread a few months back and from the fact that they're brothers in arms on the allied matrix.

Just commenting on a few things.

-Sisters of Silence may officially be gone. Black Ships are described as being crewed by Adepts of the Adeptus Telepathica with Inquistors as captains.

Might mean there's an interesting story related to the disbanding/destruction of the Sisters of Silence still to come in the horus heresy.

-The Inquisition still retains the 3 classic Ordo Militants it seems. It is flatly said that the Grey Knights are the Ordo Militant of the Ordo Malleus, the Deathwatch Ordo Xenos, while the SoB maintain "close ties" with the Ordo Hereticus. The SoB don't seem to be formally an Ordo Militant but a de facto one.

Not too surprised. The SoB were always a branch of the Ecclesiarchy and just happened to share both the goals and methods favored by the Ordo Hereticus.

-There's a new ship called the "Blade of Eternity" that was lost in the Warp over 20,000 years ago and seems to appear again before any major Chaos incursion.

Anything more given about this? 20,000 years would make it from the DaOT. Might have an interesting story connected to it.

-In M39, 5 great heroes returned that are comparable to the Primarchs. They do a bunch of great stuff and oversee a bunch of great victories but vanish suddenly vanish.

Pretty neat idea if they are the Primarchs. Certainly makes more sense than Draigo popping in and out of the warp to lend assistance.

-The Adeptus Mechanicus is no longer part of the Adeptus Terra. It is separate and reports directly to the High Lords of Terra, like the Ecclesiarchy.

This feels right.

-Dark Eldar don't just seem to not use Farseers and Warlocks and what have you, they are stated to not be psychic altogether. No explanation as to how this difference from Craftworld Eldar took place.

This seems rather odd. Perhaps it was some sort of experiment to disconnect themselves from Slaanesh that failed miserably.

-Tyranids fight with each other now. Hive Fleets compete with each other and clash over food on planets. The Hive Mind is still stated to be directing the overall Tyranid race regardless of this, this is probably the stupidest thing in the Codex.

It's not that unbelievable. The Hive Mind probably portions out bits of control to various species, which can inevitably lead to a bit of clashing in terms of resource allocation.

-The actions of the battles between the 4 Chaos Gods in the Warp directly effects the Materium in a more material fashion. For instance, if Nurgle is doing well in the war before he is inevitably pushed back, there will be rampant plague in the galaxy.

I remember there being theories that related to this a few years back. Interesting to see it's been made official.

-Abaddon's Black Crusades are described more as repeated blows to the Imperium to gradually weaken it and as part of a greater plan, rather then 13 separate attempts to march on Terra. None of the Black Crusades are described even as failures. GW trying to end the stereotype of Faildabbon I take it.

This makes me very happy to see.

Harriticus wrote:Deathwatch certainly exists and is mentioned 2-3 times from what I saw, including how many kill-teams they have on Armageddon and what not.

Very cool. After their complete absence in 5E and by how the role of the Grey Knights was worded, I had feared they would have been phased out entirely - which would've been a shame, as I always liked their unique "small groups" role and their induction of non-Marines into kill teams. Good to see they're still kicking around.

Lynata wrote:Thank you for going through the book and writing this down. My own is still in the mail, but should arrive soonish.

Comments below:

Harriticus wrote:Sisters of Silence may officially be gone. Black Ships are described as being crewed by Adepts of the Adeptus Telepathica with Inquistors as captains.

Well, if we're talking about studio material, they were never "in" in the first place. The bit about the crews is interesting, though - I think in the old fluff it was said that Inquisition Black Ships are separate from Telepathica ones. I'm guessing security is then handled solely by ISTs now, no more SoB?

It was never once said that the Black Ships were crewed by Sisters of Silence OR Sisters of Battle. The Inquisitorial Black Ships have always had a mention of the Adeptus Telepathica involved, by the by.

That has been an assumption, with no real basis upon it outside of the fact that the Sisters of Silence vanished from the setting post-Heresy.

Harriticus wrote:The Inquisition still retains the 3 classic Ordo Militants it seems. It is flatly said that the Grey Knights are the Ordo Militant of the Ordo Malleus, the Deathwatch Ordo Xenos, while the SoB maintain "close ties" with the Ordo Hereticus. The SoB don't seem to be formally an Ordo Militant but a de facto one.

So the Deathwatch still exists? That is good to know.

...
Why would the Deathwatch not still exist?
I mean, I know you like to thump your chest and say "THERE IS NO CANON!" but what in the world made you think the Deathwatch was gone?!

The "de facto" role of the SoB fits their previous descriptions, I guess.

This hasn't changed, so that's good.

Harriticus wrote:The Tau-Ultramarines alliance or Tau ties to the Emperor is never alluded to. Beyond the Allied chart there's no explanation why the Astartes and Tau are brothers in arms.

Heh, good to know. Where did those rumors come from, anyways?

Blood of Kittens.

Harriticus wrote:In late M41, much of Segmentum Pacificus is in full-fledged rebellion

Interesting, also.

It is an interesting development.

Harriticus wrote:The Adeptus Mechanicus is no longer part of the Adeptus Terra. It is separate and reports directly to the High Lords of Terra, like the Ecclesiarchy.

I thought this had always been the case?

Indeed it has been. Some are under the mistaken assumption otherwise though.

Harriticus wrote:On a separate note, the Dark Angels seem to take center stage here. They have cover art, back art, and the intro art for the Space Marine section.

Fits to what we heard of the 6E starter box, I suppose.

YAY!

The Unforgiven are in charge!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

jareddm wrote:

-There's a new ship called the "Blade of Eternity" that was lost in the Warp over 20,000 years ago and seems to appear again before any major Chaos incursion.

Anything more given about this? 20,000 years would make it from the DaOT. Might have an interesting story connected to it.

It being from the Dark Age of Technology is definitely going to be...strange.

-In M39, 5 great heroes returned that are comparable to the Primarchs. They do a bunch of great stuff and oversee a bunch of great victories but vanish suddenly vanish.

Pretty neat idea if they are the Primarchs. Certainly makes more sense than Draigo popping in and out of the warp to lend assistance.

You're aware that the majority of the Primarchs who went missing, went into the Warp, right?
Off the very top of my head:
Corax--went hunting in the Warp.
Leman Russ--went hunting in the Warp.
The Khan--went hunting in the Warp.

-Dark Eldar don't just seem to not use Farseers and Warlocks and what have you, they are stated to not be psychic altogether. No explanation as to how this difference from Craftworld Eldar took place.

This seems rather odd. Perhaps it was some sort of experiment to disconnect themselves from Slaanesh that failed miserably.

No real mystery.

The Dark Eldar kill off individuals with even the barest hint of psyker potential--and the majority of them are not "born" so much as "cloned".
It's why we have the elite Kabalite unit called the "Trueborn", in fact.

-Abaddon's Black Crusades are described more as repeated blows to the Imperium to gradually weaken it and as part of a greater plan, rather then 13 separate attempts to march on Terra. None of the Black Crusades are described even as failures. GW trying to end the stereotype of Faildabbon I take it.

This makes me very happy to see.

Absolutely!
This is what I've been arguing for years now. He might not be winning the battles, but he most certainly is not out of the war yet.

You're aware that the majority of the Primarchs who went missing, went into the Warp, right?
Off the very top of my head:
Corax--went hunting in the Warp.
Leman Russ--went hunting in the Warp.
The Khan--went hunting in the Warp.

Yes but they're also Primarchs. I understood that this is still them popping out of the warp, but it feels more appropriate given how much more we know about them and what they've gone through.

No real mystery.

The Dark Eldar kill off individuals with even the barest hint of psyker potential--and the majority of them are not "born" so much as "cloned".
It's why we have the elite Kabalite unit called the "Trueborn", in fact.

Shows what I know about the DE

jareddm wrote:

You're aware that the majority of the Primarchs who went missing, went into the Warp, right?
Off the very top of my head:
Corax--went hunting in the Warp.
Leman Russ--went hunting in the Warp.
The Khan--went hunting in the Warp.

Yes but they're also Primarchs. I understood that this is still them popping out of the warp, but it feels more appropriate given how much more we know about them and what they've gone through.

Sure, but at the same time it's important to remember that the Grey Knights are closer to the Custodes than the "regular" Astartes.

By all measures, what we have for information suggests that they might even be closer to the Emperor than the Custodes were.

jareddm wrote:

You're aware that the majority of the Primarchs who went missing, went into the Warp, right?
Off the very top of my head:
Corax--went hunting in the Warp.
Leman Russ--went hunting in the Warp.
The Khan--went hunting in the Warp.

Yes but they're also Primarchs. I understood that this is still them popping out of the warp, but it feels more appropriate given how much more we know about them and what they've gone through.

No real mystery.

The Dark Eldar kill off individuals with even the barest hint of psyker potential--and the majority of them are not "born" so much as "cloned".
It's why we have the elite Kabalite unit called the "Trueborn", in fact.

Shows what I know about the DE

Trueborn are DE that have gone through natural birth. Other Dark Eldar are taken out of the tummy and their growth accelerated. Hell, some might be cloned, but not in the sense you are thinking of.

I was most suprised to see a direct reference to the Squats by name, even though it's not much... After all the trouble they went to removing all the references to them..

Rogue psykers, mutants and traitors, the enemy inside, have now their own faction fluff (and some artwork, too) just behind Daemons and CSM.

I'm really hoping this is something more than 2nd ed. nostalgia.

Also, the Adeptus Mechanicus seem to have been sidelined, barely getting a couple important mentions.

Kanluwen wrote:

Harriticus wrote:The Inquisition still retains the 3 classic Ordo Militants it seems. It is flatly said that the Grey Knights are the Ordo Militant of the Ordo Malleus, the Deathwatch Ordo Xenos, while the SoB maintain "close ties" with the Ordo Hereticus. The SoB don't seem to be formally an Ordo Militant but a de facto one.

So the Deathwatch still exists? That is good to know.

...
Why would the Deathwatch not still exist?
I mean, I know you like to thump your chest and say "THERE IS NO CANON!" but what in the world made you think the Deathwatch was gone?!

AustonT wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:Why would the Deathwatch not still exist? I mean, I know you like to thump your chest and say "THERE IS NO CANON!" but what in the world made you think the Deathwatch was gone?!

Yeah that got a lolwhut from me too considering the Deathwatch are a well documented and relatively popular part of 40k. They had about as much chance as the Ultramarines of being written out in 6E.

Because the Deathwatch was entirely missing from the list of Imperial forces in the 5E rulebook (which included the GKs and SoB), and due to the 5E GK Codex having stated that the Grey Knights would now fulfill the role of Chamber Militant for all the Inquisition - including the Ordo Xenos.
In short, the Deathwatch was suddenly without a job, and had vanished from places where it should have been mentioned. It thus appeared it might have been "squatted".

It's good that this is not the case.

But "well documented"? I wouldn't compare a short WD article and a section in GW's Inquisitor RPG to all the fluff the Ultramarines had amassed over the decades. The studio had pretty much dropped the ball on the DW in the previous years; I hope that their re-appearance (possibly sparked by FFG's RPG?) means they have something planned for it. Like, new kill team rules?

Kanluwen wrote:It was never once said that the Black Ships were crewed by Sisters of Silence OR Sisters of Battle.

"[...] Thus, the Sisters find themselves in the service of the Inquisition, performing purity sweeps through Imperial organisations, persecuting apostate clerics, challenging renegade Space Marine Chapters, guarding the most dangerous of the Ordo's prisoners and acting as wardens on the infamous Black Ships."
- 3E C:WH

Kanluwen wrote:The Inquisitorial Black Ships have always had a mention of the Adeptus Telepathica involved, by the by.

Where? I did not find anything in their Battlefleet Gothic entry.
Not that I couldn't believe it, I've just never read anything of the like.

Has anyone had a good look through the appendices yet? I only had a quick flick through, but there looks to be some really cool stuff in there. An article on how to dress a lasgun wound jumped out at me as interesting.

Lynata wrote:[

Kanluwen wrote:The Inquisitorial Black Ships have always had a mention of the Adeptus Telepathica involved, by the by.

Where? I did not find anything in their Battlefleet Gothic entry. Not that I couldn't believe it, I've just never read anything of the like.

If memory serves, the very old (circa White Dwarf 120) articles on space travel and the warp put the black ships in the Adeptus Astra Telepathica's sphere, which makes sense (or at least did so at the time), given their mission of gathering nascent psykers from the Imperium's worlds.

English Assassin wrote:If memory serves, the very old (circa White Dwarf 120) articles on space travel and the warp put the black ships in the Adeptus Astra Telepathica's sphere, which makes sense (or at least did so at the time), given their mission of gathering nascent psykers from the Imperium's worlds.

The actual psyker-collecting Black Ships, yeah - but the Battlefleet article pretty much established two different sorts of Black Ships, one for the Astra Telepathica (-> collecting psykers) and one for the Inquisition (-> Inquisition stuff).

I wonder if this means they've now merged the two... or if they still have two types of Black Ships, but that the Inquisition is "overseeing" the psyker tithe to ensure they get 'em all.

I'm very skeptical of this idea that the Adeptus Mechanicus reports to the High Lords of Terra. Also, I don't know where OP got the idea that the Mechanicum was ever part of Adeptus Terra.

Manchu wrote:I'm very skeptical of this idea that the Adeptus Mechanicus reports to the High Lords of Terra.

Erm, the Fabricator-General is one of the high lords of tera.

The Tyranids have always fought each other. It's an evolutionary thing, and in no way detrimental to them as a whole. Quite the opposite, in fact - the stronger fleet consumes the weaker and becomes larger (and stronger) as a result, as well as taking any unique bioforms from the weaker fleet. It's the explanation for how characters like Deathleaper keep showing up in random fleets. I doubt they would fight if confronted by an enemy, though - a bit like Orks, I guess. It's not like you'd get Hive Fleet X fighting the Tau on a planet and suddenly Hive Fleet Y shows up and starts eating X (That would almost be an excuse for allies, lmao). That wouldn't prove the stronger of the fleets, as one is attacking while bolstered by the indirect support of, in this case, the Tau.

Also, we've always known about how the encountered Hive Fleets were mere vanguards of a much greater armada, ditto to the trillions of Tyranids thing. It was never in the BRB, though, so I guess it's new?

As for no DE psykers - well, they're already highly effected by the Warp, constantly on the brink of being consumed by She Who Thirsts. I don't think inviting Slaaneshi daemons into one's mind is a very intelligent thing to do.

Im not sure about this in previous editions, but is now says the imperium isnt at all out war with the eldar? and they do not act aggressively toward them unless provoked? Is that how it always was?

Manchu wrote:I'm very skeptical of this idea that the Adeptus Mechanicus reports to the High Lords of Terra. Also, I don't know where OP got the idea that the Mechanicum was ever part of Adeptus Terra.

Codex Imperialis. It's old, but amazingly enough it's the only hierarchy chart of the Imperium until 6th.

hotsauceman1 wrote:Im not sure about this in previous editions, but is now says the imperium isnt at all out war with the eldar? and they do not act aggressively toward them unless provoked? Is that how it always was?

5th Edition more or less said the same thing. That the Eldar aren't bothered because:
A.) They're hard to find
B.) Attacks on Craftworlds are bloody messes
C.) They're not on Imperial worlds, though this certainly changes when they attack a planet of the Imperium or vice versa.

hotsauceman1 wrote:Im not sure about this in previous editions, but is now says the imperium isnt at all out war with the eldar? and they do not act aggressively toward them unless provoked? Is that how it always was?

The Imperium is not so unified as to be able to give a solid answer. Certain Marine chapters or Ordo Xenos Inquisitors may be pursuing the Eldar with military intent, but I think the general policy is that the Eldar can wait. There's bigger fish to fry.

Indeed, the Eldar are at worse just a minor nuisance.

Eldar and the Imperium might have minor skirmishes from time to time, and if an Imperial ship comes across a terribly outgunned Eldar ship, or vice versa, they'll probably blow it out of the sky just on GP, but on the whole both sides realize that tangling with each other on a larger scale is more trouble than it's worth.


edit- I don't buy the concept of the Tyranids fighting each other for resources. It's apart of Tyranid psychology to eat itself -they do it every time they conquer a planet- thus if they actually "fought" each other that would imply that one side of the Tyranids would be trying to not get eaten. That goes against the Tyranid concept. Tyranids eating Tyranids would basically just be one force dunking itself into a gestation pool of its own volition while the other force waited to eat.

Harriticus wrote:Codex Imperialis. It's old, but amazingly enough it's the only hierarchy chart of the Imperium until 6th.

Huh, you're right, I totally didn't pay attention to this small "anomaly" in the chart. The AdMech should stand apart just as the Inquisition and the Ministorum do, reporting directly to the High Lords. I think this must have changed several years ago already, though - in the previous books, the domains of the Mechanicus (Forge Worlds) were always described as independent from the Adeptus Terra.

BlaxicanX wrote:I don't buy the concept of the Tyranids fighting each other for resources. It's apart of Tyranid psychology to eat itself -they do it every time they conquer a planet- thus if they actually "fought" each other that would imply that one side of the Tyranids would be trying to not get eaten. That goes against the Tyranid concept. Tyranids eating Tyranids would basically just be one force dunking itself into a gestation pool of its own volition while the other force waited to eat.

Well, I guess it could make sense if there are several hives present that aren't "networked" to ally but simply think of their own hive first...

Kind of like a simple machine script:
1. eat any non-Tyranids
2a. unless additional biomass is required for upkeep, go back to 1
2b. if no non-'nids are present, eat 'nids from a hive that isn't yours
3. if no other hive is present ,eat yourself

Essentially, the hivemind's self-preservation preventing its organisms from consuming themselves before consuming another hive. In a way, this could even work in favour of the greater self of the Tyranids - the strong weeding out the weak, using their biomass to further improve the superior strain? Mayhaps it could help looking at certain ant species.

Just an attempt at justifying stuff - often times, things conflicting at first can be explained by conjuring excuses that at least partially draw upon the existing fluff. How far you want to go with this (meaning the point where any excuse will just look silly) is a matter of personal interpretation and preferences; we all have our own thresholds where it just becomes too much.

Alternatively, maybe GW just likes the idea of Kerrigan's Swarm War. Given the Tyranid Redesign, it wouldn't be the first time they copy something from Blizz back. In this case, brace yourselves for Newnid Hiveminds with personalities like the Necron Lords.

Okay, I know this sounds kind of stupid, but does Codex: Tyranids ever mention how they manage to recycle their dead warriors and still be at 100% strength each time?

I mean, from middle school biology, for each step up the food chain, only 10% of the energy used to create is level is transferred to the next tier.

For example:
1,000,000 Calories (lets just say) is used to make a termagant. Then only 100,000 Calories from one termagant can make 1 gene stealer. Then 10,000 Calories from one gene stealer can make a Carnifex. And so on.

Usually, the more sophisticated the genus, the more energy it needs to make it. So if 1,000,000 Calories are needed to make a termagant, then 1,000,000,000 Calories are needed to make a gene stealer, and 1,000,000,000,000 Calories are needed to make a Carnifex. And so on.

So if they recycle themselves, they retain 10% of available biomass while around 90% is lost as heat, or a 10% efficiency. (Think of them as Carnot engines from Thermodynamics.) That means they are losing more units then they can afford from the resources that they take from the planets. If they really wanted to, they should have photosynthetic hive ships dedicated to converting the energy emitted from the sun to creating these little buggers. That would make more sense, almost like a solar powered Tyranid.

Rant aside, new things that I saw was that Necrons have their own webway getes, (or perhaps steal them from the Eldar) and use them for traveling rather than just inertia cancelers.

I'm also kind of happy that SoB are still hanging around, even if its by the thinnest thread in my opinion.

Yes, let's apply Earth biology to extragalactic insectoid monsters.

You're right, this does sound knd of stupid.

Omegus wrote:Yes, let's apply Earth biology to extragalactic insectoid monsters.

You're right, this does sound knd of stupid.

There's no point in applying logic to 40k.

Harriticus wrote:In late M41, much of Segmentum Pacificus is in full-fledged rebellion

Kinda funny its called the Segmentum Pacificus. Which is where my Homebrew IG regiment is from. This add some potential roleplay if it IGvsIG or any other Imperial.

Tadashi wrote:

Omegus wrote:Yes, let's apply Earth biology to extragalactic insectoid monsters.

You're right, this does sound knd of stupid.

There's no point in applying logic to 40k.

Yeah, you guys are right. Saves a lot of burnt brain cells.

Omegus wrote:Yes, let's apply Earth biology to extragalactic insectoid monsters.

It's not a matter of just one planet's biology but one of thermodynamics. There is and can never be 100% efficiency in any form of process or energy conversion. Even if one gives the Tyranids some greater efficiency compared to Earth's biology, they can never reach 100%.

However, the question of Tyranid loss replacement has to take into account the fact that the Tyranid consumption ecosystem is not a closed energy system. There are energy inputs, such as from the sun which is absorbed by Tyranid flora. In the past WD from 3rd edition, there was an article by Sherman Bishop detailing use of geothermal energy sources by Tyranids. This is energy input from the planet's internal heat, which comes from radioactive decay, and the planet's own original heat of formation. Both of these are external energy inputs.

Finally, there is the sheer volume of a planet's biomass. Aside from literal raw material to create new Tyranids, biomass can also be metabolized to release energy to drive other processes.

When looking at the Tyranids, their entire ecosystem, composed of all the various species from Rippers to capillary towers to Tyranid flora and bacteria, all needs to be considered.

And before people try to claim all logic should be thrown out in 40K, the fact that gravity still works, guns still fire ammunition and bolter shells need propulsion, shows there are still laws of physics in action. Just because a universe is a fictional universe doesn't mean anything goes. Fictional universes still have their own internal paradigms and tales within such a universe should be internally consistent with the setting's rules. The 40K universe has the addition of the warp which is often a way to bend or avoid real world physics, but the Tyranids are about "evolution gone mad" and are about a realspace alien menace as opposed to the otherworldly magical beings of the warp.

I concur with the idea you shouldn't bring logic and physics into 40k. You'd never stop finding problems. For example the earth's oceans pin down the continental plates into place so even if they could boil away, the planet would look more like Venus and everything on it would be swallowed up. The chances of having so many worlds in one galaxy with the right conditions to support human life would be absurd. The Leman russ and chimera tanks as they appear as models would just sit in one place with their tracks spinning, due to no ground clearance where the tracks sit whatsoever. Dreadnoughts would be a useless piece of junk with a centre of gravity way above it's centre. ...and so it goes on.

Glorioski wrote:I concur with the idea you shouldn't bring logic and physics into 40k. You'd never stop finding problems. For example the earth's oceans pin down the continental plates into place so even if they could boil away, the planet would look more like Venus and everything on it would be swallowed up. The chances of having so many worlds in one galaxy with the right conditions to support human life would be absurd. The Leman russ and chimera tanks as they appear as models would just sit in one place with there tracks spinning, due to no ground clearance whatsoever. Dreadnoughts would be a useless piece of junk with a centre of gravity way above it's centre. ...and so it goes on.

My thoughts exactly. I've said this before in the past: 40k isn't science fiction. Not even remotely. Its science fantasy. The former makes the improbable sound possible (a good example is Star Trek). The latter makes the impossible sound probable (a good non-40k example is Star Wars).

It doesn't matter if something is fantasy or hard science fiction. There are still internal rules to be kept to and 40K is meant to be the real world layered on top with the magic of the warp and comic book soft future physics. However the rest of the world in realspace is still generally operating according to the same familiar principles known in the real world. Planets orbit stars. Things don't randomly fall upwards. Humans need to eat to survive because they metabolize food to release its energy...etc... To say simply that 40K is science-fantasy and therefore no science or logical thinking should be applied is simply incorrect. Like any fictional universe, some suspension of disbelief is always needed to some extent, as is required even in "hard" science fiction universes, but suspension of disbelief does not equate to accepting every ridiculous thing.

Lord of the Rings is pure fantasy and yet that doesn't mean people can float wherever they want or that being hit with a sword doesn't hurt or cut flesh. Just because something is a fictional universe doesn't mean it becomes Loony Toons and anybody can write any ridiculous thing and expect it to be taken seriously. Someone couldn't claim a bolter blew up an entire planet and expect that to be accepted purely because "hey it's 40K and no rules of logic apply so I can write anything!"

Lynata wrote:Alternatively, maybe GW just likes the idea of Kerrigan's Swarm War. Given the Tyranid Redesign, it wouldn't be the first time they copy something from Blizz back. In this case, brace yourselves for Newnid Hiveminds with personalities like the Necron Lords.

Shhhhhhhh, 40K fanboys get butthurt when you point out that Games Workshop copies all their concepts from other universes, too.

I think that is the best explanation, though. I think GW is definitely trying to make their factions have a lot more "depth" to them, starting with the Necrons, so I wouldn't be surprised if they did begin modeling Tyranids after the Zerg. Zerg are basically just more interesting Tyranids anyway.

BlaxicanX wrote:

Lynata wrote:Alternatively, maybe GW just likes the idea of Kerrigan's Swarm War. Given the Tyranid Redesign, it wouldn't be the first time they copy something from Blizz back. In this case, brace yourselves for Newnid Hiveminds with personalities like the Necron Lords.

Shhhhhhhh, 40K fanboys get butthurt when you point out that Games Workshop copies all their concepts from other universes, too.

I think that is the best explanation, though. I think GW is definitely trying to make their factions have a lot more "depth" to them, starting with the Necrons, so I wouldn't be surprised if they did begin modeling Tyranids after the Zerg. Zerg are basically just more interesting Tyranids anyway.

Great. Just what we need. Instead of incomprehensible, inhuman, Lovecraftian horrors stalking the stars, we get textbook villains.

Tyranids already are "textbook villains". They're rip-offs from the Starship trooper bugs, who's only driving force for doing anything is "nomnomnom". Having a mindless lust for destruction is not "Lovecraftian".

BlaxicanX wrote:Tyranids already are "textbook villains". They're rip-offs from the Starship trooper bugs, who's only driving force for doing anything is "nomnomnom". Having a mindless lust for destruction is not "Lovecraftian".

Not completely. The novel Arachnids were actually civilized, the only reason they went to war with the Federation in the first place was because the Federation was encroaching on their territory - the Tyranids' only purpose is to devour everything in the galaxy. I can safely assume that if the Tyranids aren't stopped, not even the Powers of Chaos will survive.

I don't think it is ever specifically mentioned that the Tyranids get '100%' of their biomass back after an invasion? Why would it say such a thing?
I agree with Iracundus' sentiments; Yes this is Science fantasy, but that doesn't mean that we can just ignore examples of when the described events completely flaunt physical laws that we know to be true.

Also, I remember no mention of Tyranids fighting each other - ever. The only time this might happen is if the Tyranid hive-mind control has been somehow blocked, and they revert to their basic instincts. Is there the possibility that they may be trying to introduce more 'character' (as with the Necrons), or it is just a fluff justification for players having Tyranid on Tyranid battles?

Going on the 'tau as battle brothers' I would hazard a guess that the latter is probably the case.

Annnnd thread derailed. Can we keep to the discussion on new/changes to the background instead of discussing how Tyranids fair on weight watchers or whatnot.

Arclaw wrote:I was most suprised to see a direct reference to the Squats by name, even though it's not much... After all the trouble they went to removing all the references to them..

What? Where? What page?

Arclaw wrote:I was most suprised to see a direct reference to the Squats by name, even though it's not much... After all the trouble they went to removing all the references to them..

WHERE

BlaxicanX wrote:

Lynata wrote:Alternatively, maybe GW just likes the idea of Kerrigan's Swarm War. Given the Tyranid Redesign, it wouldn't be the first time they copy something from Blizz back. In this case, brace yourselves for Newnid Hiveminds with personalities like the Necron Lords.

Shhhhhhhh, 40K fanboys get butthurt when you point out that Games Workshop copies all their concepts from other universes, too.

I think that is the best explanation, though. I think GW is definitely trying to make their factions have a lot more "depth" to them, starting with the Necrons, so I wouldn't be surprised if they did begin modeling Tyranids after the Zerg. Zerg are basically just more interesting Tyranids anyway.

So your theory is that GW is going to base the Tyranids on the Zerg which are themselves based on the Tyranids...go on...

BlaxicanX wrote:I don't buy the concept of the Tyranids fighting each other for resources. It's apart of Tyranid psychology to eat itself -they do it every time they conquer a planet- thus if they actually "fought" each other that would imply that one side of the Tyranids would be trying to not get eaten. That goes against the Tyranid concept. Tyranids eating Tyranids would basically just be one force dunking itself into a gestation pool of its own volition while the other force waited to eat.

Exactly what I said, but also missing the point. How does one decide the strongest of the Hives, in this case?

Lynata wrote:In a way, this could even work in favour of the greater self of the Tyranids - the strong weeding out the weak, using their biomass to further improve the superior strain? Mayhaps it could help looking at certain ant species.

Exactly what I said.

@Irancundus: Thank you for making sense. I know far too many people who believe "it's fantasy/sci-fi/fiction, therefore nothing applies". Which is absolutely absurd for all the reasons you stated. Everything does make sense, to a degree, in 40k. You don't get Librarians shooting lightning from their faces "just because" - they're explained by the existence of the Warp, which, by its nature, alters the laws of reality. The Warp is an enabling factor in many of the more impossible aspects of 40k that can't (or aren't) be handwaved with "technology so advanced we can't begin to explain" or even "nobody knows". Ork weapons, for example, make no sense - but are explained by the 'Waaagh!'. If ork weapons worked without an enabling pseudomagical factor, then sure, everything goes. But it doesn't. If it did, it's a writing nightmare - and then Marneus Calgar grew wings from nowhere and nobody thought it was daemonic in the slightest because spontaneous mutations are totally possible without any logical sense in the universe! Let's apply Earth logic to LoTR. No wonder the Nazgûl make no sense! You so derp! But the Nazgûl do make sense. In LoTR, such things are possible. In LoTR, there are enabling factors that are not present in the real world. In LoTR, mystical things are readily explained by mysticism being an integral part of the universe. They don't just simply exist; they're undead wraiths, turned into such by powerful magic and the like. The Nine didn't one day decide "Let's be wraiths for a bit, chaps!" and then they suddenly were.

So no, you can't say "logic doesn't apply". Logic always applies. Even magic in fiction (unless intended by the author to not) makes sense within the context of itself. As it follows that igniting something creates fire (logic), so too does it follow that casting a fire spell also creates fire - in settings where magic exists, of course. Sure, Dreadnoughts have an absurd design, but it's not impossible. We can assume (with LOGIC) that the high centre of mass is counteracted by some means. We can assume (with LOGIC) that they're not made of cheese and sunshine, and their guns don't fire laser plasma microwave LSD-beams that turn everyone into watermelons. And while we're at it, let's throw in some Sorcerers of Khorne and 20ft-tall Imperial Guardsmen.

Venerable Dreadnought-Brother Giganticus Maximillius of the Friendship Smiles Chapter wrote:
LET THE PROMETHIUM BURN THEM TO A MAGIC SPARKLY-FLOOF

Saying that logic does not apply means that all the fan-rage over things like "a Space Marine wouldn't do that! They hate Eldar!" or what-have-you is totally meaningless. If logic doesn't apply, then everything goes. Not a few things which are hypocritically selected out of favour. For example, if there's no logic, why can't Dark Eldar and Salamanders be epic best buddies? There's no logic to state anything against it, after all.

As a biologist, the Tyranid ability to generate 100% efficiency is a bit... silly, but then again, they generally only generate 100% biomass, not calories. They can and do get those from elsewhere, as stated previously. Although this doesn't explain how come they can still do it while stranded without a Fleet - I like to pretend that their bodies are just designed to be broken down again. It wouldn't necessarily be 90% energy loss, anyway, because real-world organisms are totally autonomous. Tyranids, on the other hand don't have reproductive systems, and it can be assumed that the rest of their physiology is similarly stripped-down. I wouldn't be surprised if they actually lacked digestive systems. The only thing we know they do have is a respiratory and circulatory system. Maybe Tyranid cannibalism is achieved through some special enzyme action which takes extraordinarily low energy to accomplish, or something.

However, never mind all these fancy 'could be' explanations - I think the more likely excuse is that the original author who came up with this concept fails basic biology forever.

Who thinks that Segmentum Pacificus' next fluff update will be "and then the Imperium Exterminatused every single world in it"? Because, you know, so grimdark (!!!) and trillions and trillions of humans (on one planet) all died in horrible agony (!!!) oh the grimdaaaark!(!!) And then their souls were eaten by Chaos because grimdark!!

Pacific wrote:
Also, I remember no mention of Tyranids fighting each other - ever. The only time this might happen is if the Tyranid hive-mind control has been somehow blocked, and they revert to their basic instincts. Is there the possibility that they may be trying to introduce more 'character' (as with the Necrons), or it is just a fluff justification for players having Tyranid on Tyranid battles?

Not got my books with me but IIRC there were mentions in previous Tryanid Codexes of worlds where they were fighting each other.

Pacific wrote:I don't think it is ever specifically mentioned that the Tyranids get '100%' of their biomass back after an invasion? Why would it say such a thing?
I agree with Iracundus' sentiments; Yes this is Science fantasy, but that doesn't mean that we can just ignore examples of when the described events completely flaunt physical laws that we know to be true.

Also, I remember no mention of Tyranids fighting each other - ever. The only time this might happen is if the Tyranid hive-mind control has been somehow blocked, and they revert to their basic instincts. Is there the possibility that they may be trying to introduce more 'character' (as with the Necrons), or it is just a fluff justification for players having Tyranid on Tyranid battles?

Nor do I, as too me, this doesn't make much sense. They are all part of one mind after all, why would they fight each over resources? Surely the Hivemind would be able advise one fleet to leave another alone and let it do it's own thing. I hope they don't do anything like that. It makes Tyranids less scary and less of a threat if you ask me. Countless billions of slavering creatures controlled by one conscious, devouring what ever gets in it's way becomes a many factioned, less coherent force that does what it wants. It's what made the Tyranids unique. Every other race has it's rebellious parts, as they have free thought, the Tyranids are one mind.

Pacific wrote:I don't think it is ever specifically mentioned that the Tyranids get '100%' of their biomass back after an invasion? Why would it say such a thing?
I agree with Iracundus' sentiments; Yes this is Science fantasy, but that doesn't mean that we can just ignore examples of when the described events completely flaunt physical laws that we know to be true.

There's a small bit in the White Dwarf article on Behemoth when they released the Tervigon kit, saying unlike other Hive Fleets, Behemoth expended more biomass than it could replace since it just did a juggernaut push fighting all the way. This hints that a Hive Fleet likely doesn't even break even on taking a highly defended planet. Either that, or Behemoth wasn't particularly careful with its biomass and just expended it as fast as possible to win a planet.

You also need to consider that the worlds with major defenses from the major players in the galaxy likely don't represent the majority of the worlds in the galaxy (as you said, things we know to be true - even 1 million worlds in the galaxy is a pittance of what's actually out there). Taking a highly defended world might expend biomass, but be done to open up access to a system with half a dozen undefended worlds.

Tyranids certainly wouldn't number in the tens of millions of hive ships and trillions of smaller organisms if they couldn't keep up their rate of consumption with their rate of expenditure. Science may go against them, but again, yes, this is science fantasy. They state Tyranids have such huge numbers, assumptions need to be made as to how.

The assumption that the majority of the worlds in the galaxy are lightly defended is a plausible one - the Imperium only manages to hold a million worlds, and those are not all heavuly defended. The majority are thought safe and only garrisoned. Orks, while numerous, aren't the concentration of Octarius everywhere. Octarius and Armageddon are the exceptions, not the rule. Outside of Necrons, which are still waking up, no other major players hold a huge amount of planets, and definitely don't defend as many as heavily. There's currently an estimated 10 billion planets in starts habitable zones - and even uninhabitable planets are targets for them, since they take gases, minerals, etc. That's a lot of space for undefended planets for Tyranids to munch through while stmbling on the odd heavily defended system.

AustonT wrote:So your theory is that GW is going to base the Tyranids on the Zerg which are themselves based on the Tyranids...go on...

Aspects of the Tyranids are. Have you compared the visual designs from the very first Tyranids to Starcraft's Zerg, and then the new Tyranid designs? Consider it an "artistic cycle".
In the same vein, GW could have simply started to take more from the 'nids than before, now also extending to how they work.

This doesn't have to be the case, mind you (especially if this already happened before; I haven't heard of it but would not be surprised). I still think one can perfectly explain this with a hive-focused self preservation drive, which simply turns the bugs against another hive before they turn onto their own. An unintentional side-effect of their biology, but one that still works in their favour. Darwinism at work.

Tadashi wrote:I've said this before in the past: 40k isn't science fiction. Not even remotely. Its science fantasy. The former makes the improbable sound possible (a good example is Star Trek). The latter makes the impossible sound probable (a good non-40k example is Star Wars).

Meh, I always found Star Wars somewhat more "scientifical" than Star Trek. The latter has its own examples of mysticism, so the Force does not disqualify SW in this comparison. Star Trek is just better at "hiding" its artistic license with loads of technobabble that is meant to sound as if it makes sense, but really doesn't. We have examples of this in 40k and SW, too, though, even if not as many. "Depleted deuterium" bolter rounds anyone?

But still ... the writers of the German P&P RPG The Dark Eye once used the term "fantastic realism" to describe the setting. I think this applies to most other settings as well, just to varying degrees. 40k does have occasionally things that just boggle your mind, but most often it just has its own rules that are a mix of real world physics and its own laws (primarily concerning the existence of a "warp" and how it is connected to people's minds, I think). Of course, one could say that this is just because the writers are so used to / grounded in real world physics that they automatically let them flow into the writing, but the end result is the same. And last but not least, it is supposed to be the future of "our" universe, in a way.

-Loki- wrote:

Pacific wrote:I don't think it is ever specifically mentioned that the Tyranids get '100%' of their biomass back after an invasion? Why would it say such a thing?
I agree with Iracundus' sentiments; Yes this is Science fantasy, but that doesn't mean that we can just ignore examples of when the described events completely flaunt physical laws that we know to be true.

There's a small bit in the White Dwarf article on Behemoth when they released the Tervigon kit, saying unlike other Hive Fleets, Behemoth expended more biomass than it could replace since it just did a juggernaut push fighting all the way. This hints that a Hive Fleet likely doesn't even break even on taking a highly defended planet. Either that, or Behemoth wasn't particularly careful with its biomass and just expended it as fast as possible to win a planet.

You also need to consider that the worlds with major defenses from the major players in the galaxy likely don't represent the majority of the worlds in the galaxy (as you said, things we know to be true - even 1 million worlds in the galaxy is a pittance of what's actually out there). Taking a highly defended world might expend biomass, but be done to open up access to a system with half a dozen undefended worlds.

Tyranids certainly wouldn't number in the tens of millions of hive ships and trillions of smaller organisms if they couldn't keep up their rate of consumption with their rate of expenditure. Science may go against them, but again, yes, this is science fantasy. They state Tyranids have such huge numbers, assumptions need to be made as to how.

The assumption that the majority of the worlds in the galaxy are lightly defended is a plausible one - the Imperium only manages to hold a million worlds, and those are not all heavuly defended. The majority are thought safe and only garrisoned. Orks, while numerous, aren't the concentration of Octarius everywhere. Octarius and Armageddon are the exceptions, not the rule. Outside of Necrons, which are still waking up, no other major players hold a huge amount of planets, and definitely don't defend as many as heavily. There's currently an estimated 10 billion planets in starts habitable zones - and even uninhabitable planets are targets for them, since they take gases, minerals, etc. That's a lot of space for undefended planets for Tyranids to munch through while stmbling on the odd heavily defended system.

I think people are misunderstanding the issue here. Getting back 100% of the energy content expended is impossible due to thermodynamics, but this is for a closed system. Planets and the Tyranid consumption ecosystem are not closed systems. There are energy inputs from the sun and from geothermal sources.

However, science also shows the staggering amount of resources gained from just an agri-world. From the old Sherman Bishop WD article:

...

Dalki-Prime was an agricultural planet with a diameter of 12,500 km, slightly smaller than Terra. The Tyranid fleet was able to remove the following quantities of material from the planet within 100 days [Terran Standard].

1.55 billion cubic km water, one cubic km of sea water weighs over 1 trillion kg.
8.67 billion cubic km gases, at STP theoretically they could reduce this to 1 tenth its volume by super cooling and pressure (3 atm, and 0ºC).
72 million cubic km soil and minerals, weighing 1.4 trillion kg per cubic km.

Ponder for a moment the amount of energy that can be extracted from such resources. The Imperium and even the Orks are not really extracting the energy content of the entire planet's soil, atmosphere, and oceans beyond the most superficial amounts through farming and fishing. The Tyranids don't need to care about sustainability for a planet because they strip everything. Topsoil has no particular value to the Imperial war machine. Even growing crops on it takes time, whereas we know from the Codex Tyranids that Tyranid flora has accelerated growth and reproduces rapidly (depleting the soil in the process) in order to be harvested in successive waves by Rippers. The Tyranids thus accomplish rapid extraction of the nutrient and energy content of soil and lands not usable by the Imperium. This means the wastelands and uninhabited areas of worlds are not as easily exploited by other races compared to the Tyranids.

Just one lightly defended world like an agri-world can yield enormous return for the Tyranids. In fact, that is exactly what the splinter fleets of Kraken are said to be doing in previous Tyranid codices. They have bypassed the main heavily defended planets and are picking off random isolated worlds. The average lightly populated agri-world is unlikely to be able to hold out without support, and this is often not available in time.

Lynata wrote:Aspects of the Tyranids are. Have you compared the visual designs from the very first Tyranids to Starcraft's Zerg, and then the new Tyranid designs? Consider it an "artistic cycle".

I have compared them, and aside from the Ravener being a very obvious Hydralisk impersonation, there's very little similarity between Tyranids and comparitive Zerg units. 'Bug-like with chitin and claws' isn't enough to claim either company is copying each other. Even the large quadrupedal units, which would be the easiest to draw comparisons between (Ultralisk compared to Heirophants, Tervigons, Tyrannofexes) show no similarities other than being large quadrupedal bugs with, again, armour and chitin.

Mr Morden wrote:

Pacific wrote:
Also, I remember no mention of Tyranids fighting each other - ever. The only time this might happen is if the Tyranid hive-mind control has been somehow blocked, and they revert to their basic instincts. Is there the possibility that they may be trying to introduce more 'character' (as with the Necrons), or it is just a fluff justification for players having Tyranid on Tyranid battles?

Not got my books with me but IIRC there were mentions in previous Tryanid Codexes of worlds where they were fighting each other.

I don't want to sound like I'm being facetious, but can you remember which codex Mr Morden? In my own mind this concept of Nids turning on each other is a completely new spin on the background, but I'm prepared to be proved wrong if someone can point out something I have missed!

Iracundus wrote:I think people are misunderstanding the issue here. Getting back 100% of the energy content expended is impossible due to thermodynamics, but this is for a closed system. Planets and the Tyranid consumption ecosystem are not closed systems. There are energy inputs from the sun and from geothermal sources. [...]

Yeah - and who says they would need to get back 100% from eating themselves, anyways? It's not a matter of the Tyranids being a biological perpetuum mobile, but rather that in times of need they consume themselves in order to sustain the hive long enough until they reach another external food source, at which time the swarm will start growing again.
Hell, the human body does this, too.

If two hives attacking each other is a sign of nutrient starvation or simple Darwinism - with the stronger swarm "assimilating" the weaker one's biomatter and using it to breed more creatures of the superior strain - is debatable, but I believe both ideas have some merit.

-Loki- wrote:and aside from the Ravener being a very obvious Hydralisk impersonation [...]

That's what I meant, yes. I'm no expert on neither Tyranids nor Zerg, so I was unable to cough up the names myself (and too lazy googling for them )

Pacific wrote:

Mr Morden wrote:

Pacific wrote:
Also, I remember no mention of Tyranids fighting each other - ever. The only time this might happen is if the Tyranid hive-mind control has been somehow blocked, and they revert to their basic instincts. Is there the possibility that they may be trying to introduce more 'character' (as with the Necrons), or it is just a fluff justification for players having Tyranid on Tyranid battles?

Not got my books with me but IIRC there were mentions in previous Tryanid Codexes of worlds where they were fighting each other.

I don't want to sound like I'm being facetious, but can you remember which codex Mr Morden? In my own mind this concept of Nids turning on each other is a completely new spin on the background, but I'm prepared to be proved wrong if someone can point out something I have missed!

It's in the 3rd ed nid codex. Hive fleets compete with each other as a roundabout way of reorganising biomass and strengthening by effectively cross breeding. There's supposedly no loss to the nids from this because of the 100% thing.

Iracundus wrote:

Omegus wrote:Yes, let's apply Earth biology to extragalactic insectoid monsters.

It's not a matter of just one planet's biology but one of thermodynamics. There is and can never be 100% efficiency in any form of process or energy conversion. Even if one gives the Tyranids some greater efficiency compared to Earth's biology, they can never reach 100%.

Yes, lets apply Earth biology and physics to extragalactic insectoid monsters in a universe where your dreams and nightmares manifest and try to eat your soul.

This is starting to sound a lot more than stupid.

The ability of Titans and Heirophants to support their own weight.
Your argument is invalid.

Frozen Ocean wrote:

BlaxicanX wrote:I don't buy the concept of the Tyranids fighting each other for resources. It's apart of Tyranid psychology to eat itself -they do it every time they conquer a planet- thus if they actually "fought" each other that would imply that one side of the Tyranids would be trying to not get eaten. That goes against the Tyranid concept. Tyranids eating Tyranids would basically just be one force dunking itself into a gestation pool of its own volition while the other force waited to eat.

Exactly what I said, but also missing the point. How does one decide the strongest of the Hives, in this case?

Lynata wrote:In a way, this could even work in favour of the greater self of the Tyranids - the strong weeding out the weak, using their biomass to further improve the superior strain? Mayhaps it could help looking at certain ant species.

Exactly what I said.

@Irancundus: Thank you for making sense. I know far too many people who believe "it's fantasy/sci-fi/fiction, therefore nothing applies". Which is absolutely absurd for all the reasons you stated. Everything does make sense, to a degree, in 40k. You don't get Librarians shooting lightning from their faces "just because" - they're explained by the existence of the Warp, which, by its nature, alters the laws of reality. The Warp is an enabling factor in many of the more impossible aspects of 40k that can't (or aren't) be handwaved with "technology so advanced we can't begin to explain" or even "nobody knows". Ork weapons, for example, make no sense - but are explained by the 'Waaagh!'. If ork weapons worked without an enabling pseudomagical factor, then sure, everything goes. But it doesn't. If it did, it's a writing nightmare - and then Marneus Calgar grew wings from nowhere and nobody thought it was daemonic in the slightest because spontaneous mutations are totally possible without any logical sense in the universe! Let's apply Earth logic to LoTR. No wonder the Nazgûl make no sense! You so derp! But the Nazgûl do make sense. In LoTR, such things are possible. In LoTR, there are enabling factors that are not present in the real world. In LoTR, mystical things are readily explained by mysticism being an integral part of the universe. They don't just simply exist; they're undead wraiths, turned into such by powerful magic and the like. The Nine didn't one day decide "Let's be wraiths for a bit, chaps!" and then they suddenly were.

So no, you can't say "logic doesn't apply". Logic always applies. Even magic in fiction (unless intended by the author to not) makes sense within the context of itself. As it follows that igniting something creates fire (logic), so too does it follow that casting a fire spell also creates fire - in settings where magic exists, of course. Sure, Dreadnoughts have an absurd design, but it's not impossible. We can assume (with LOGIC) that the high centre of mass is counteracted by some means. We can assume (with LOGIC) that they're not made of cheese and sunshine, and their guns don't fire laser plasma microwave LSD-beams that turn everyone into watermelons. And while we're at it, let's throw in some Sorcerers of Khorne and 20ft-tall Imperial Guardsmen.

Venerable Dreadnought-Brother Giganticus Maximillius of the Friendship Smiles Chapter wrote:
LET THE PROMETHIUM BURN THEM TO A MAGIC SPARKLY-FLOOF

Saying that logic does not apply means that all the fan-rage over things like "a Space Marine wouldn't do that! They hate Eldar!" or what-have-you is totally meaningless. If logic doesn't apply, then everything goes. Not a few things which are hypocritically selected out of favour. For example, if there's no logic, why can't Dark Eldar and Salamanders be epic best buddies? There's no logic to state anything against it, after all.

As a biologist, the Tyranid ability to generate 100% efficiency is a bit... silly, but then again, they generally only generate 100% biomass, not calories. They can and do get those from elsewhere, as stated previously. Although this doesn't explain how come they can still do it while stranded without a Fleet - I like to pretend that their bodies are just designed to be broken down again. It wouldn't necessarily be 90% energy loss, anyway, because real-world organisms are totally autonomous. Tyranids, on the other hand don't have reproductive systems, and it can be assumed that the rest of their physiology is similarly stripped-down. I wouldn't be surprised if they actually lacked digestive systems. The only thing we know they do have is a respiratory and circulatory system. Maybe Tyranid cannibalism is achieved through some special enzyme action which takes extraordinarily low energy to accomplish, or something.

However, never mind all these fancy 'could be' explanations - I think the more likely excuse is that the original author who came up with this concept fails basic biology forever.

Who thinks that Segmentum Pacificus' next fluff update will be "and then the Imperium Exterminatused every single world in it"? Because, you know, so grimdark (!!!) and trillions and trillions of humans (on one planet) all died in horrible agony (!!!) oh the grimdaaaark!(!!) And then their souls were eaten by Chaos because grimdark!!

I know I'll be derailing the thread even more, but as a physicist and a biologist I need to say this. Thermodynamics aside, the 100% biomass theory is also very bad and wasteful. The reason things in the universe works is because in general things want to be in the lowest energy state. Reactions take advantage of this situation to move a living body (think of using the energy collected from a ball rolling down a hill to move your body). That is why there are energy diagrams, having stable and meta-stable states of a compound. Making a biomass soup would actually consume more energy than it's worth because it would be like rolling the ball manually uphill again. The energy input does not equal the energy output due to friction. In biology this friction would be the binding energies of the chemical reaction. It'll take more energy to break the bonds of a chemical or protein then it would release when chemicals form.

So in terms of physics and biology (they're both the same thing. One explains on a macroscopic level while the other explains on the microscopic level) both are very inefficient. You would need a planet and then some's worth of energy just to digest one planet. That's why solar powered photosynthetic Tyranids sound awesome. They get the unadulterated version of energy in its purest form.

Okay that's my two cents. Also is anyone surprised that The picture of Earth (158 in collector's edition) look very clean and not very grimdarky? And it looks like a semi-decent place to live.

Frozen Ocean wrote:
Saying that logic does not apply means that all the fan-rage over things like "a Space Marine wouldn't do that! They hate Eldar!" or what-have-you is totally meaningless. If logic doesn't apply, then everything goes. Not a few things which are hypocritically selected out of favour. For example, if there's no logic, why can't Dark Eldar and Salamanders be epic best buddies? There's no logic to state anything against it, after all.

This is, of course, a red herring of an argument. As an educated individual, you really should be ashamed for even attempting it.

The setting has its own internal rules and logic that precludes things like "Dark Eldar and Salamanders being epic best buddies"**. That's very different from applying real-world science to made-up fantasy biotechnology made up by writers who often barely qualify as sentient, much less qualified in the sciences. Certain real-world logic must of course apply to maintain some semblance of sanity and suspension of disbelief (gravity, for example), but getting all anal about something as specific as Tyranid biology is frankly foolish.

**Of course, occasionally terrible writers violate the game's established internal logic, and then just explain it away with "oh, all fiction is alternate realities completely up to the author to interpret", so there is some version of 40K where terminators surf on rhinos and do backflips, and there are versions of 40K where Draigo exists.

I just wanna point it out there that after a successful Tyranid invasion of a planet "reclamation pools" start appearing, and as far as i know if you arnt an important bug you are supposed to get inside of it and be "reclaimed."

So think of biomass like solent green, can be used for anything!

Omegus wrote:

Frozen Ocean wrote:
Saying that logic does not apply means that all the fan-rage over things like "a Space Marine wouldn't do that! They hate Eldar!" or what-have-you is totally meaningless. If logic doesn't apply, then everything goes. Not a few things which are hypocritically selected out of favour. For example, if there's no logic, why can't Dark Eldar and Salamanders be epic best buddies? There's no logic to state anything against it, after all.

This is, of course, a red herring of an argument. As an educated individual, you really should be ashamed for even attempting it.

The setting has its own internal rules and logic that precludes things like "Dark Eldar and Salamanders being epic best buddies"**. That's very different from applying real-world science to made-up fantasy biotechnology made up by writers who often barely qualify as sentient, much less qualified in the sciences. Certain real-world logic must of course apply to maintain some semblance of sanity and suspension of disbelief (gravity, for example), but getting all anal about something as specific as Tyranid biology is frankly foolish.

It is not a red herring in the least. It is the endpoint consequence of disallowing the application of any logic as other previous posters have tried to claim. If the 40K universe has no logic, then literally anything can be said and nothing can be said to make more sense than anything else, as they will all be just purely arbitrary choices. That is precisely what others have tried to state earlier, that trying to apply logic to science fiction or science fantasy is pointless and that anything whatsoever can be made up.

Dark Eldar and Salamanders allying to take Terra and kill the Emperor? Sure why not? Bolters shooting flowers? Sure. Claiming only "some" logic applies is a arbitrary distinction. There is no a priori reason why gravity existing is any more reasonable to apply over the Dark Eldar and Salamanders being best buddies. Heck, why not have normal humans able to benchpress a Titan? After all as others have said earlier in this thread, no point applying real world physics and science to a made up world right?

The existence of internal rules is necessary to prevent settings from becoming nonsensical. While the Tyranids as space faring aliens using only biotechnology are capable of accomplishing tasks that life on Earth cannot do, they are still generally stated to be operating only normal biological lines. While the exact mechanism of how they accomplish these feats is not elaborated, there is no indication that the Tyranids are free from the constraints of realworld physics anymore than humans in 40K are.

Iracundus wrote:

Omegus wrote:

Frozen Ocean wrote:
Saying that logic does not apply means that all the fan-rage over things like "a Space Marine wouldn't do that! They hate Eldar!" or what-have-you is totally meaningless. If logic doesn't apply, then everything goes. Not a few things which are hypocritically selected out of favour. For example, if there's no logic, why can't Dark Eldar and Salamanders be epic best buddies? There's no logic to state anything against it, after all.

This is, of course, a red herring of an argument. As an educated individual, you really should be ashamed for even attempting it.

The setting has its own internal rules and logic that precludes things like "Dark Eldar and Salamanders being epic best buddies"**. That's very different from applying real-world science to made-up fantasy biotechnology made up by writers who often barely qualify as sentient, much less qualified in the sciences. Certain real-world logic must of course apply to maintain some semblance of sanity and suspension of disbelief (gravity, for example), but getting all anal about something as specific as Tyranid biology is frankly foolish.

It is not a red herring in the least. It is the endpoint consequence of disallowing the application of any logic as other previous posters have tried to claim. If the 40K universe has no logic, then literally anything can be said and nothing can be said to make more sense than anything else, as they will all be just purely arbitrary choices. That is precisely what others have tried to state earlier, that trying to apply logic to science fiction or science fantasy is pointless and that anything whatsoever can be made up.

Dark Eldar and Salamanders allying to take Terra and kill the Emperor? Sure why not? Bolters shooting flowers? Sure. Claiming only "some" logic applies is a arbitrary distinction. There is no a priori reason why gravity existing is any more reasonable to apply over the Dark Eldar and Salamanders being best buddies. Heck, why not have normal humans able to benchpress a Titan? After all as others have said earlier in this thread, no point applying real world physics and science to a made up world right?

The existence of internal rules is necessary to prevent settings from becoming nonsensical. While the Tyranids as space faring aliens using only biotechnology are capable of accomplishing tasks that life on Earth cannot do, they are still generally stated to be operating only normal biological lines. While the exact mechanism of how they accomplish these feats is not elaborated, there is no indication that the Tyranids are free from the constraints of realworld physics anymore than humans in 40K are.

As a physicist and a biologist I need to say this. Thermodynamics aside, the 100% biomass theory is also very bad and wasteful

No actually you did not need to say it. In fact the only reason YOU care is because YOU are a physicist and a biologist. You are applying real world science to a made up science fantasy table top war game fluff written by British writers far less educated on the subject than you yet you are annoyed by their lack of scientific accuracy? lol come on You started and ended your own argument on the matter with real world scientific logic... which might still not apply to how tyranids thermodynamics or biology work... why? simply because the GW developers say so. But hey glad you spent all that time figuring that all out and derailing this thread on irrelevant knowledge to the current new fluff for the 6th ed rule book of warhammer 40k.

By the way I’m a biologist too and while your figuring all that stuff about how fictional biological forms metabolize and develop… I’m going to be over here rolling dice, drinking a beer, and looking at how cool these MODELS look. I'll worry about crunching those numbers in the lab during working hours on stuff thats real.

Long story short lets drop the bs and stay on topic. I personally like the direction there going with the fluff, has a lot more 2nd and 3rd edition feel to it. And as previously stated there are lots of reasons why the tyranids could be eating each other, but I personally don’t believe it’s division in the Hive Mind or hive fleets as win or lose the Hive Mind always wins in these little skirmishes.

Iracundus wrote:It is not a red herring in the least. It is the endpoint consequence of disallowing the application of any logic as other previous posters have tried to claim.

I think you people are talking past each other.

Applying "logic" as in contemporary real world scientific findings and understanding to 40k may not work at all times.
Applying "logic" as an in-setting element should always work, because the setting has its own rules which it should strive to keep to.

Basically, it's an external logic <-> internal logic thing.

Though I have to say, there are very few things blatantly dismissing real world logic in 40k. Mostly they just introduce a new element into the equation, such as the existence of psychic powers. Or the potential existence of "gravitic energy dampers" for those huge Titans, given that Codex material already stated the IoM occasionally puts these into power armour to make them lighter.

Lynata wrote:
Kind of like a simple machine script:
1. eat any non-Tyranids
2a. unless additional biomass is required for upkeep, go back to 1
2b. if no non-'nids are present, eat 'nids from a hive that isn't yours
3. if no other hive is present ,eat yourself

Essentially, the hivemind's self-preservation preventing its organisms from consuming themselves before consuming another hive. In a way, this could even work in favour of the greater self of the Tyranids - the strong weeding out the weak, using their biomass to further improve the superior strain? Mayhaps it could help looking at certain ant species.

Just an attempt at justifying stuff - often times, things conflicting at first can be explained by conjuring excuses that at least partially draw upon the existing fluff. How far you want to go with this (meaning the point where any excuse will just look silly) is a matter of personal interpretation and preferences; we all have our own thresholds where it just becomes too much.

Alternatively, maybe GW just likes the idea of Kerrigan's Swarm War. Given the Tyranid Redesign, it wouldn't be the first time they copy something from Blizz back. In this case, brace yourselves for Newnid Hiveminds with personalities like the Necron Lords.

Older 'nid Codex have talked about Hive fleety fighting Hive fleet to weed out weaker fleets or just to run battle simulations. I mean really, what general would not love to be able to run full out live fire simulations to to test tactics? And in the case of a Hive Fleet, not only can it do so, but it does not even loose any resources to do it.

Newnid Hiveminds??!!???! What a revolting development that would be.

No actually you did not need to say it. In fact the only reason YOU care is because YOU are a physicist and a biologist. You are applying real world science to a made up science fantasy table top war game fluff written by British writers far less educated on the subject than you yet you are annoyed by their lack of scientific accuracy? lol come on You started and ended your own argument on the matter with real world scientific logic... which might still not apply to how tyranids thermodynamics or biology work... why? simply because the GW developers say so. But hey glad you spent all that time figuring that all out and derailing this thread on irrelevant knowledge to the current new fluff for the 6th ed rule book of warhammer 40k.

By the way I’m a biologist too and while your figuring all that stuff about how fictional biological forms metabolize and develop… I’m going to be over here rolling dice, drinking a beer, and looking at how cool these MODELS look. I'll worry about crunching those numbers in the lab during working hours on stuff thats real.

Long story short lets drop the bs and stay on topic. I personally like the direction there going with the fluff, has a lot more 2nd and 3rd edition feel to it. And as previously stated there are lots of reasons why the tyranids could be eating each other, but I personally don’t believe it’s division in the Hive Mind or hive fleets as win or lose the Hive Mind always wins in these little skirmishes.

Vampirate of Sartosa wrote:

Arclaw wrote:I was most suprised to see a direct reference to the Squats by name, even though it's not much... After all the trouble they went to removing all the references to them..

WHERE

zedmeister wrote:Annnnd thread derailed. Can we keep to the discussion on new/changes to the background instead of discussing how Tyranids fair on weight watchers or whatnot.

Arclaw wrote:I was most suprised to see a direct reference to the Squats by name, even though it's not much... After all the trouble they went to removing all the references to them..

What? Where? What page?

Appendix 1, Abhumans, Paragraph 3 (pg 405). Like I said, it's not much but I found it suprising...

Arclaw wrote:I was most suprised to see a direct reference to the Squats by name, even though it's not much... After all the trouble they went to removing all the references to them..

Not so surprising: Ork codex contains veiled reference to Squats, probably also Nid codex. There have been hints.

Backfire wrote:

Arclaw wrote:I was most suprised to see a direct reference to the Squats by name, even though it's not much... After all the trouble they went to removing all the references to them..

Not so surprising: Ork codex contains veiled reference to Squats, probably also Nid codex. There have been hints.

I'm aware of the indirect reference to Golgotha in the ork dex, but consider this is the first time the word "Squats" has been printed in a 40k (non BL) book since 2nd Ed. So they're explicitly canon again, after all that. And according to the rest of the paragraph its perfectly fine to consider whole worlds are populated by them... Guess that's going to make anyone with a Squat imperial guard regiment feel pretty chuffed?

It also seems obvious (together with Nids codex reference which likely points to Squats) that Squats and Demiurg are NOT the same thing. Curious to see where they go from here.

I expect they'll go nowhere with it, frankly... its just a reconciliation with the squat fans, and a sign that it's long enough after the messy relationship break-up that GW are comfortable talking about it

Backfire wrote:It also seems obvious (together with Nids codex reference which likely points to Squats) that Squats and Demiurg are NOT the same thing. Curious to see where they go from here.

Who in the world thinks Squats and Demiurg are the same thing?

They're not. They never have been. The Demiurg are an alien race which are fairly close to what the Squats used to be(short, masters of technology and craftsmanship, clan based) but outside of that they are two very different things.

Kanluwen wrote:Who in the world thinks Squats and Demiurg are the same thing? They're not. They never have been.

I think some people may have been confused by the fact that the Demiurg are based on the Squats, as explained in a post by Jervis Johnson. As we can see here on this forum as well, word of mouth tends to twist and warp supposed facts so much that the end result is much different from the original statement. It's like the telephone game, just with overenthusiastic grown-ups.

[edit] Found it. Oh, how i love the waybackmachine:
http://web.archive.org/web/20070221095649/http://forums.specialist-games.com/epic/forum_b/topic.asp?ARCHIVE=true&TOPIC_ID=2532&whichpage=3

nids have always fought eac other? how is this new?

i remember a short piece of fluff stating the hive mind find this to be an advantage, as the winner absorbs the defeated fleets biomass and whatever planet they may have been fighting over, becoming stronger from it.

its win win for nids

I really liked the story of the rogue ship apearing and all hell breaking loose after

Arclaw wrote:

Backfire wrote:

Arclaw wrote:I was most suprised to see a direct reference to the Squats by name, even though it's not much... After all the trouble they went to removing all the references to them..

Not so surprising: Ork codex contains veiled reference to Squats, probably also Nid codex. There have been hints.

I'm aware of the indirect reference to Golgotha in the ork dex, but consider this is the first time the word "Squats" has been printed in a 40k (non BL) book since 2nd Ed. So they're explicitly canon again, after all that. And according to the rest of the paragraph its perfectly fine to consider whole worlds are populated by them... Guess that's going to make anyone with a Squat imperial guard regiment feel pretty chuffed?

Not to mention there's a chance they might get more attention due to studio staff changes. Remember, it was the 'old guard' of the studio that didn't like the name and concept, and thus had no enthusiasm for the project. They have almost a whole new design studio now, and someone might work up the enthusiasm to work on them.

Formosa wrote:I really liked the story of the rogue ship apearing and all hell breaking loose after

The Sword of Eternity (sry if I didn't get the name right, spanish translation here) has to be one of my favorite additions to the background. But there are also some more grimdark bits hidden in the fluff.

Like the not-so-veiled reference to the Children's Crusade of 1212. At this point I no longer trusted 40k to pull me out of my comfort zone, but the snippets about the "Lost Crusade" and its horrifying end sent the odd shiver down my spine.

-Loki- wrote:

Arclaw wrote:

Backfire wrote:

Arclaw wrote:I was most suprised to see a direct reference to the Squats by name, even though it's not much... After all the trouble they went to removing all the references to them..

Not so surprising: Ork codex contains veiled reference to Squats, probably also Nid codex. There have been hints.

I'm aware of the indirect reference to Golgotha in the ork dex, but consider this is the first time the word "Squats" has been printed in a 40k (non BL) book since 2nd Ed. So they're explicitly canon again, after all that. And according to the rest of the paragraph its perfectly fine to consider whole worlds are populated by them... Guess that's going to make anyone with a Squat imperial guard regiment feel pretty chuffed?

Not to mention there's a chance they might get more attention due to studio staff changes. Remember, it was the 'old guard' of the studio that didn't like the name and concept, and thus had no enthusiasm for the project. They have almost a whole new design studio now, and someone might work up the enthusiasm to work on them.

It was the 'old guard' who also created the Demiurg as "Squats 2.0".

It's also, mind you, the 'old guard' in the form of Jervis Johnson who still heads the studio. More likely than not this is his way of getting people to finally shut the hell up about "Squats DID EXIST!".

Or it's that silly goon Cruddace copy/pasting from earlier editions again.

I'm fairly sure copypasting has always been a part of 40k fluff. Way back to 2E copying 1E Rogue Trader.

Not that this excludes the possibility of it possibly being an unintentional mistake. Has there ever been a list like this in a book before?

Err any other changes we should know about to the fluff?

Iracundus wrote:
And before people try to claim all logic should be thrown out in 40K, the fact that gravity still works, guns still fire ammunition and bolter shells need propulsion, shows there are still laws of physics in action. Just because a universe is a fictional universe doesn't mean anything goes. Fictional universes still have their own internal paradigms and tales within such a universe should be internally consistent with the setting's rules. The 40K universe has the addition of the warp which is often a way to bend or avoid real world physics, but the Tyranids are about "evolution gone mad" and are about a realspace alien menace as opposed to the otherworldly magical beings of the warp.

Thank you. The human race gets a little dumber every time people just use the hand-wave excuses. Some things are available to say "well it works with 40K science" because we don't know it isn't possible. But certain rules still apply. People dying when their heads get cut off is still "science" and "logic", lol. Basic laws of gravity seem to apply, it seems that stars function by the same principles too. So yeah, Tyranids can't technically recycle themselves and retain the same amount of "mass out" as "mass in". But you're right about their "mass in" not being limited to just other obvious animal life forms or themselves.

Besides, the universe itself even proves there must be some kind of loss. After all, two of the hive fleets have been stopped. That means they ran out of Tyranids at some point. Otherwise it would have been nearly impossible to stop if they simply converted all available biomass into new creatures.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Arclaw wrote:I expect they'll go nowhere with it, frankly... its just a reconciliation with the squat fans, and a sign that it's long enough after the messy relationship break-up that GW are comfortable talking about it

This has been my thought. The "et by tearnidz" story was a poorly conceived reaction by guys who were tired of being bothered by fans about Squats. You can understand it might get frustrating at some point to keep getting asked the same question you don't have a good answer to, though it's also understandable that those people who had invested in armies of Squat figures were a bit irritated to suddenly have a pile of expensive, basically unusable models.

GW probably should have done to the Squats what they've done to the Sisters, and it's likely that the WD codex for the Sisters is a sign they learned their lesson with the Squats. Give the army a set of rules that keeps most of its models usable (no army has 100% model viability anyway). After Codex: IG 2E, they could have easily made. 'White Dwarf Codex" for Squats that left a fair number of their figures usable, while selling more of the new IGuard tanks and letting Squat players play. After all, Squats shared a lot in common with I Guard in RT, including the same tanks, basic weapons and basic armor.

At any rate, putting them back into the universe's lore is relatively easy and painless. After all, their demise was never really "officially" recorded in any of the studio material, only vaguely alluded to.

Asherian Command wrote:Err any other changes we should know about to the fluff?

Not really, 6th Edition demonstrates that GW will never advance the story at all.

AustonT wrote:

BlaxicanX wrote:

Lynata wrote:Alternatively, maybe GW just likes the idea of Kerrigan's Swarm War. Given the Tyranid Redesign, it wouldn't be the first time they copy something from Blizz back. In this case, brace yourselves for Newnid Hiveminds with personalities like the Necron Lords.

Shhhhhhhh, 40K fanboys get butthurt when you point out that Games Workshop copies all their concepts from other universes, too.

I think that is the best explanation, though. I think GW is definitely trying to make their factions have a lot more "depth" to them, starting with the Necrons, so I wouldn't be surprised if they did begin modeling Tyranids after the Zerg. Zerg are basically just more interesting Tyranids anyway.

So your theory is that GW is going to base the Tyranids on the Zerg which are themselves based on the Tyranids...go on...

Well, basically, Zerg are what Tyranids would be if Tyranids were a faction that was actually well-written and served a purpose beyond being the galaxy's punching bag.

So to that end, Tyranids being more like Zerg would basically just be well-written Tyranids.

Punching bag? The Tyranids have conquered more of the galaxy in less time than any other faction in 40K...

They have to be stopped at some point, because if they aren't, 40K ends.

Good lord, punching bag, lol. Sometimes I wonder about how people arrive at the inane conclusions that they do. Of course, you think the Zerg were an original idea, so I guess it's no surprise.

Where did I say the Zerg were an original idea? lol. Hand me some of them drugs you're taking.

As for the rest of your post: naw. Tyranids get rage stomped by every other faction outside of their own codex. They're the Imperial Guard of the non-Imperial factions. Name some major victories the Tyranid have under their belt? They don't have any. Every major conflict they've been in has ended with them losing and then some grimdark one-liner being thrown in at the end of the article talking about how it's bittersweet victory because the Tyranids have endless numbers and they'll adapt for the next time blah blah blah. Meanwhile, lone Phoenix Lords are solo'ing entire fleets and Tau forces are decimating fleets without losing a ship. lulz.

Behemoth ate an entire chunk of the Ultima Segmentum before being finally stopped at Macragge. Kraken ate another chunk, including two entire SM chapters...

Of course they end up losing. They're an inexorable, implacable enemy that exists only to consume and perpetuate itself. Like I said, they have to eventually "lose" every major conflict because they're an "all or nothing" kind of faction.

If they don't lose, it means they go on to eat everything. And it's hard to have a 40K if they do that. However, all the way back to 2nd Edition, the Tyranids have been the "eventually going to eat everything" faction. The first, and original, unstoppable force.

. You don't seem to understand Tyranids at all, lol. Or really, anything else about 40K. Again, like I said, "punching bags"... LOL. Absurd. Absolutely absurd.

BlaxicanX wrote:Name some major victories the Tyranid have under their belt? They don't have any.

Destroying Malantai. Destroying Gryphonne IV. Destroying the majority of he planets in the Macragge solar system.

You seem to get caught up on the hive fleets being stopped, and ignore the irreparable damage each successive fleet does, and the fact that they're not going to stop comIng. It's not your fault - Cruddace did a terrible job on the recent fluff.

BlaxicanX wrote: Name some major victories the Tyranid have under their belt? They don't have any.

Let's see...entire sections of Ultima Segmentum left lifeless after Hive Fleet Behemoth until what was essentially a pyrrhic Imperial victory at Maccrage...Iyanden reduced to a shadow of its former self after Kraken...the Imperium being forced to burn hundreds if not thousands of worlds to slow and divert Leviathan...the Imperium having to increase recruitment 500% at least just to hold against incoming fleets...right, they might not be winning now, but in the long run, only the Orks have a chance against them.

-Loki- wrote:

Arclaw wrote:

I'm aware of the indirect reference to Golgotha in the ork dex, but consider this is the first time the word "Squats" has been printed in a 40k (non BL) book since 2nd Ed. So they're explicitly canon again, after all that. And according to the rest of the paragraph its perfectly fine to consider whole worlds are populated by them... Guess that's going to make anyone with a Squat imperial guard regiment feel pretty chuffed?

Not to mention there's a chance they might get more attention due to studio staff changes. Remember, it was the 'old guard' of the studio that didn't like the name and concept, and thus had no enthusiasm for the project. They have almost a whole new design studio now, and someone might work up the enthusiasm to work on them.

It's taken a long time, almost ten years in fact, but my Avatar is finally valid again! Hurrah!

You're right though.. I think one of the chaps at Nottingham had said something along the lines of, "No squats while I am here".. Well, unless someone has been a little naughty with their writing, I'm guessing that guy doesn't work there any more (not sure who it was that said that, I always assumed Alan Merrit, but that obviously can't be the case).

As Kanluwen said though, the Demiurg are a very different concept to the Squats, their only commonalities being their short stature and love for industry and mechanical things. For those who aren't aware, their design concept first came many years ago when GW were looking for a new race for 40k. The Demiurg were one of the concepts put forward alongside the Tau, and the latter was ultimately chosen (some say cynically that this was due to the proposed expansion into Asia, and specifically Japan at the time, although such a choice if true reveals a poor understanding about Japanese culture). However, there was some residual spillage of that initial Demiurg concept; The Jes Goodwin sketches, the Battlefield Gothic ships, as well as some mentions in BL books.

I have to say I love the idea of ab-humans coming back into Imperial Guard - it always made them far more characterful in the past, and will hopefully make them a more interesting concept for converters. I've always thought the background should encourage imagination, and not 'stunt it' as it has been prone to do with 3rd through to 5th editions.

Agent_Tremolo wrote:

Formosa wrote:I really liked the story of the rogue ship apearing and all hell breaking loose after

The Sword of Eternity (sry if I didn't get the name right, spanish translation here) has to be one of my favorite additions to the background. But there are also some more grimdark bits hidden in the fluff.

Like the not-so-veiled reference to the Children's Crusade of 1212. At this point I no longer trusted 40k to pull me out of my comfort zone, but the snippets about the "Lost Crusade" and its horrifying end sent the odd shiver down my spine.

Wow, you must be a real sensitive soul to have shivers down your spine from a sci-fantasy transliteration of events that never happened.

Eh, the Children's Crusade happened, just not in the way the oft-repeated story suggests it did. There were two different movements of people in 1212 lead by youthful (one as young as 12) "visionaries" , this one being Stephan of Cloyes, who holds perhaps the strongest claim to being the origins of the Children's Crusade.

Right, but only relatively small portions of the mobs were actual children. A bunch of dumbasses walking to their deaths is nothing to be upset over. Adolescents don't count, since you were of marriable age and would probably die at 30. They aren't quite the same as adolescents of today.

I agree with you that Tyranid infighting makes no sense. The Tyranids were a lot cooler when they were an animalistic yet strangely intelligent alien species launching a massive invasion upon our galaxy bent on devouring all the galaxy's biomass. Now, hive fleets are little better than overgrown, space-faring beehives.

DOOMBREAD wrote:I agree with you that Tyranid infighting makes no sense. The Tyranids were a lot cooler when they were an animalistic yet strangely intelligent alien species launching a massive invasion upon our galaxy bent on devouring all the galaxy's biomass. Now, hive fleets are little better than overgrown, space-faring beehives.

Read more fluff, listen to less internet. This simply isn't true. They're still the same intelligent alien intelligence, and Tyranid infighting has been around since 3rd edition.

Well, I believe the correct way of putting it would be that there has been one incident of them 'infighting' in the 3rd edition book - except, its not even that - infighting implies some kind of mixed objective or leadership (the horus heresy, or any other form of civil war could be described as 'infighting').

We still generally have the impression that the entire Tyranid species is controlled by one, malign intelligence in the form of the Hive Mind.

Will someone just post the damn quote already. As with way too many fluff discussions, the debate concerning this seems to operate on 99% opinion, hearsay and unreliable memory.

I'm curious, does 6th Edition stick with the approximately 23 Second Founding Ultramarines successors, or has it been altered to account for the Legion sizes in the Black Library books that would suggest the Ultramarines would have closer to 200 Second Founding successors (with most of the other Legions adjusted upward accordingly)?

Pacific wrote:Well, I believe the correct way of putting it would be that there has been one incident of them 'infighting' in the 3rd edition book - except, its not even that - infighting implies some kind of mixed objective or leadership (the horus heresy, or any other form of civil war could be described as 'infighting').

We still generally have the impression that the entire Tyranid species is controlled by one, malign intelligence in the form of the Hive Mind.

You should read the 3rd ed nid codex or maybe even just my reply toyou earlier in this thread. There is an objective to the tyranids fighting each other. They strengthen themselves by dispensing of weaker forces, recoup the biomass and move on.

I was agreeing with that.. !

There is a difference between being directed by the hive-mind, the purpose being to make the brood stronger, and two or more different factions with different objectives fighting for supremacy over each other.

Pacific wrote:I was agreeing with that.. !

There is a difference between being directed by the hive-mind, the purpose being to make the brood stronger, and two or more different factions with different objectives fighting for supremacy over each other.

Oh I see. To be fair I had no way of knowing you had started differentiating between what kind of 'fighting' you meant when you said...

Pacific wrote:IAlso, I remember no mention of Tyranids fighting each other - ever. The only time this might happen is if the Tyranid hive-mind control has been somehow blocked, and they revert to their basic instincts. Is there the possibility that they may be trying to introduce more 'character' (as with the Necrons), or it is just a fluff justification for players having Tyranid on Tyranid battles?

...since I took it at face value.

Also it's much more than "one incident" and it's more than fair to call it in-fighting, as that gives no implied connotations of "fighting for supremacy over each other"....even if that is kind of what they are doing anyway.

Sorry for the miscommunication, I thought I'd already acknowledged that part of the 3rd edition codex that I hadn't been previously aware of, following both the reply from yourself and someone else Glorioski?

Regarding 'in-fighting', while I've got no real desire to start quibbling over semantics, to me the expression implies dissent in the ranks in some form. Even if the Nids have been killing each other, for whatever reason, presumably both sides are doing so at the behest of the hive mind and for a single, unified purpose.

Veteran Sergeant wrote:I'm curious, does 6th Edition stick with the approximately 23 Second Founding Ultramarines successors, or has it been altered to account for the Legion sizes in the Black Library books that would suggest the Ultramarines would have closer to 200 Second Founding successors (with most of the other Legions adjusted upward accordingly)?

That's an interesting point. The Horus Heresy book series have upped the anti considerably regarding legion numbers, has there been any change in the 6th edition book to reflect that?

From the answer I got on another forum, apparently not. The Grey Knights codex book says there were just over 400 Second Founding chapters. The 6th Ed book still talks about the "at least 23" Second Founding Ultramarines successors.

Sounds like more lazy Copy/Paste editing sadly.

Pacific wrote:Sorry for the miscommunication, I thought I'd already acknowledged that part of the 3rd edition codex that I hadn't been previously aware of, following both the reply from yourself and someone else Glorioski?

Regarding 'in-fighting', while I've got no real desire to start quibbling over semantics, to me the expression implies dissent in the ranks in some form. Even if the Nids have been killing each other, for whatever reason, presumably both sides are doing so at the behest of the hive mind and for a single, unified purpose.

The problem with it stems from the fluff of the Hive Mind mostly. While there's minimal fluff about infighting, it mostly feels like it's there to make mirror matches feel less wrong in game. The fluff for the Hive Mind is always, unequivocally 'there is one Hive Mind, it is made up of the sentience of every Tyranid'. So that's how I see it. The infighting fluff is just there so fluff nutters who end up in a campaign with two Tyranid forces don't have one of those awkward moments.

Veteran Sergeant wrote:I'm curious, does 6th Edition stick with the approximately 23 Second Founding Ultramarines successors, or has it been altered to account for the Legion sizes in the Black Library books that would suggest the Ultramarines would have closer to 200 Second Founding successors (with most of the other Legions adjusted upward accordingly)?

I don't recall any specific numbers but remember that the UM took a MASSIVE beating from the WordBearers. The UM would not have been 200k strong at the end of the heresy. And some legions were hardly much bigger than a single chapter by the end (Raven Guard, Salamanders). So ~23 Second founding chapters sounds perfectly reasonable.


And then there is the whole debate over how many chapters are strictly 1000 marines in the first place.

-Loki- wrote:

DOOMBREAD wrote:I agree with you that Tyranid infighting makes no sense. The Tyranids were a lot cooler when they were an animalistic yet strangely intelligent alien species launching a massive invasion upon our galaxy bent on devouring all the galaxy's biomass. Now, hive fleets are little better than overgrown, space-faring beehives.

Read more fluff, listen to less internet. This simply isn't true. They're still the same intelligent alien intelligence, and Tyranid infighting has been around since 3rd edition.

I actually read a lot of fluff (though not much Tyranid fluff) and nowhere have I seen reference to hive fleet infighting. Can you name an example of a pre-6th edition reference to Tyranid infighting?

Also the idea that Tyranid infighting makes them seem less "sinister alien intelligence" was more my opinion than fact. I acknowledge that many will disagree.

So you get to the table with a swarm of tyranids and you think to yourself, I am the devourer, I will consume all in my path and when there is nothing but burnt out starts I will move on...There is a problem though. Across the table your opponent chose to bring Tryanids. WTFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFF. If you really care about fluff you can't stand this tyranids don't fight tyranids...oh wait maybe they do.

You see there would be no point in coloring tyranids diffrently if the diffrent hive fleets weren't diffrent. They have diffrent tactics, have unique numbers of diffrent spiecies and even more important diffrent mutations of new tyranids. So when you end up facing a tyranid player there can be a fluffy reason for you facing that guy accross form you.


To the tyranids keeping 100% of biomass I don't think you guys quite understand the definition of biomass. You see biomass is mass and if 12th grade physics taught me anything it's that mass can't really be destroyed. So yes when tyranids kill eachother and send the rippers through for clean up they keep 100% biomass.

But protonhunter I think I caught a hicup in your explination. What about all the tasty tyranid meat they digested and made into energy to perform those epic acts of distructions, or more simply don't tyranids need to eat to sustain life? don't they need to pocess water and other materials to sustain themselve thus use materials to continue living (hence loose energy by creating waste)?

No why would they. Have you ever heard of tyranid poop? No? well it's probably because they don't. You guys are actually talking about energy not biomass. Yes tyranids keep 100% biomass so the size of a hive fleet isn't damaged. You are probably are confused as to how a organizm continues to function without the replenishment of consumed energy. Who knows to that, maybe they farm flora on their bioships or their consumption of tyranid flora gives them stores of consumable and useable biomass (this would be exausted eventually). More probable though would be that if given nurishment indefinitly lesser species of tyranid would probably die. They are the ones that go into the reclaimer pools and thus that energy is saved. I want to stress the fact that when a gaunt kills a guardsmand it doesn't digest him for nurishment instead it simply takes the mass of his body back to the pools to be made into a new tyranid.

protonhunter wrote:So you get to the table with a swarm of tyranids and you think to yourself, I am the devourer, I will consume all in my path and when there is nothing but burnt out starts I will move on...There is a problem though. Across the table your opponent chose to bring Tryanids. WTFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFF. If you really care about fluff you can't stand this tyranids don't fight tyranids...oh wait maybe they do.

You see there would be no point in coloring tyranids diffrently if the diffrent hive fleets weren't diffrent. They have diffrent tactics, have unique numbers of diffrent spiecies and even more important diffrent mutations of new tyranids. So when you end up facing a tyranid player there can be a fluffy reason for you facing that guy accross form you.


To the tyranids keeping 100% of biomass I don't think you guys quite understand the definition of biomass. You see biomass is mass and if 12th grade physics taught me anything it's that mass can't really be destroyed. So yes when tyranids kill eachother and send the rippers through for clean up they keep 100% biomass.

But protonhunter I think I caught a hicup in your explination. What about all the tasty tyranid meat they digested and made into energy to perform those epic acts of distructions, or more simply don't tyranids need to eat to sustain life? don't they need to pocess water and other materials to sustain themselve thus use materials to continue living (hence loose energy by creating waste)?

No why would they. Have you ever heard of tyranid poop? No? well it's probably because they don't. You guys are actually talking about energy not biomass. Yes tyranids keep 100% biomass so the size of a hive fleet isn't damaged. You are probably are confused as to how a organizm continues to function without the replenishment of consumed energy. Who knows to that, maybe they farm flora on their bioships or their consumption of tyranid flora gives them stores of consumable and useable biomass (this would be exausted eventually). More probable though would be that if given nurishment indefinitly lesser species of tyranid would probably die. They are the ones that go into the reclaimer pools and thus that energy is saved. I want to stress the fact that when a gaunt kills a guardsmand it doesn't digest him for nurishment instead it simply takes the mass of his body back to the pools to be made into a new tyranid.

The thing is it doesn't matter if you are a Tyranid or whatever you need energy. Energy can not be recovered 100%. Thus they will eventually run out of energy, although it's more likely that when the time comes they are either out of this galaxy or exterminated. In short terms, it has to do with Entropy.

Pointless squabbling over tyranid...

Veteran Sergeant wrote:The Tyranids have conquered more of the galaxy in less time than any other faction in 40K....

... including wildly inaccurate statements aside, thanks for the list. I haven't been paying quite as fine-toothed of attention to the fluff part as the OP has.

The two things that struck me most were firstly the change to the ecclesiarchy. The age of apostasy is basically glossed over with hardly a mention (compared to 5th ed), and everything got rearranged in such a way that hints at what's going to happen to SoB (being re-released in a manner similar to grey knights).

The second, more interesting thing was the many, many references to the emperor being actually alive and actually continuing to do a bunch of very important stuff. 5th ed left it much more open to interpretation whether the emperor is, in fact, alive at all, or whether he is more of a convenient fiction that allows the high lords to more easily control the imperium.

Ailaros wrote:everything got rearranged in such a way that hints at what's going to happen to SoB (being re-released in a manner similar to grey knights).

Can you be more specific about this "everything"?

The biggest thing is that the ecclesiarchy just became much more important to the fluff than it was before. Furthermore, sisters of battle are always talked about in the lens of this new, larger ecclesiarchy.

Rather than the SoB being attached to the witch-hunter inquisitors, it looks like they're getting set to have a codex:ecclesiarchy, and leave the inquisitors to grey knights. Just like how the new GK codex was made by wrapping all of the old inquisition around grey knights, so will the new ecclesiarchy codex be a new army that wraps around sisters of battle as their main infantry choices.

At least, that's what it felt like to me.

Well, that is what I have said for the past few years now so I wouldn't be surprised.

Um, that is not exactly a new thing - it's a change in focus, but none of the information given is different from what we have heard before. The 6E rulebook still has a blurb about the alliance between the Sisters and the Ordo Hereticus, it's just that this has taken the backseat and the portrayal stresses the Sororitas' role as the Ecclesiarchy's standing army. Basically, it's a return to what we heard in 2nd Edition. And just like in 2E, we already have a "Codex: Sisters of Battle" that contains optional elements of the Ecclesiarchy organized around a core of Battle Sisters.
The question left open is whether GW will follow up on their supposed "promise" and present us with a proper Codex book replacing the pitiful WD scrapings, or whether we will be left hanging in the dark for years again. Along with the usual Marine hype, the new rulebook has committed at least two pages to the Sisters, which is way more than we got in the past couple editions, so that is a good sign. Just nothing that will have me rejoice in happy anticipation just yet.

Actually, there are two minor differences in this rulebook's portrayal to the past:
#1 This book has spread out the Battle Sisters in a much less concentrated manner than before. Where until now we had the various Orders focusing their power projection on a few important places, there is now an additional layer of representation by having individual Sisters hold a lone vigil over the countless smaller shrines throughout the Imperium.
and also
#2 The Sisters have been relieved from Black Ship guard duty - this is now the sole responsibility of Inquisition Storm Troopers.

It's just a matter of waiting. We even know there are at least a couple of new Sisters sculpts already (posters reported that Jes Goodwin mentioned this at GamesDay 2010). Personally, I'd be happiest with a new Sisters book towards the middle of Sixth rather than at the very beginning or end. The fact that Sisters got a rundown at all in the core book, whereas they were absent as a faction from Fifth, is a great sign.

Manchu wrote:posters reported that Jes Goodwin mentioned this at GamesDay 2010

Didn't other posters report that James Goodwin said he wasn't working on any such thing?
I remain cautious as to those initial rumours, especially given how detailed they already were, and how much time has passed since them - and still we didn't see any results. I think it was just a load of hot air.

Manchu wrote:Personally, I'd be happiest with a new Sisters book towards the middle of Sixth rather than at the very beginning or end. The fact that Sisters got a rundown at all in the core book, whereas they were absent as a faction from Fifth, is a great sign.

True enough.

IIRC, he commented that the Sisters sculpts are difficult because they wanted multipose models but they are wearing loose cloth sleeves, which makes it difficult because the cloth would obviously drape a certain way based on the pose. Sounded and sounds plausible enough to me. And now that I look it up, it wasn't GamesDay but an event at Warhammer World on the release of DE.

Lynata wrote:Um, that is not exactly a new thing - it's a change in focus, but none of the information given is different from what we have heard before. The 6E rulebook still has a blurb about the alliance between the Sisters and the Ordo Hereticus, it's just that this has taken the backseat and the portrayal stresses the Sororitas' role as the Ecclesiarchy's standing army. Basically, it's a return to what we heard in 2nd Edition. And just like in 2E, we already have a "Codex: Sisters of Battle" that contains optional elements of the Ecclesiarchy organized around a core of Battle Sisters.
The question left open is whether GW will follow up on their supposed "promise" and present us with a proper Codex book replacing the pitiful WD scrapings, or whether we will be left hanging in the dark for years again. Along with the usual Marine hype, the new rulebook has committed at least two pages to the Sisters, which is way more than we got in the past couple editions, so that is a good sign. Just nothing that will have me rejoice in happy anticipation just yet.

Actually, there are two minor differences in this rulebook's portrayal to the past:
#1 This book has spread out the Battle Sisters in a much less concentrated manner than before. Where until now we had the various Orders focusing their power projection on a few important places, there is now an additional layer of representation by having individual Sisters hold a lone vigil over the countless smaller shrines throughout the Imperium.
and also
#2 The Sisters have been relieved from Black Ship guard duty - this is now the sole responsibility of Inquisition Storm Troopers.

It also noticable that they now state "a Force of Battel Sisters will be present to guard every shrine and Fortress Cathedral in the Imperium" as well as their other duties - no wonder they can't guard the Black ships as well!!

Really hope they do get a proper Codex and some new minis

Mr Morden wrote:It also noticable that they now state "a Force of Battel Sisters will be present to guard every shrine and Fortress Cathedral in the Imperium" as well as their other duties

That's what I meant with #1 - I was worried at first in that it would change their comparatively small number, but then I read that the shrine part is covered by lone Sisters rather than an entire Order.

It's a bit disappointing though that the battle pages then presented us with an utter lack of any SoB presence whatsoever, even though the scenery was clearly holy ground. Hell, that one mission even had the name "Sacrifice of Martyrs" ... and who were the martyrs? Cadian Shock Troops again, duh.
Same for the fluff bits. There would have been potential for so much more.

But I shouldn't complain. It's already much more than we got in the last book.

I'm actually glad to hear the Sisters weren't martyrs for once.

Manchu wrote:I'm actually glad to hear the Sisters weren't martyrs for once.

Maybe I've just become too paranoid and fear that another unique Sisters perk is being stolen now.

"Hey -- we're the ones who are supposed to fail triumphantly!"

-Dark Eldar don't just seem to not use Farseers and Warlocks and what have you, they are stated to not be psychic altogether. No explanation as to how this difference from Craftworld Eldar took place.

Their fluff has stated that if there are any children born or anyone showing a forming psychic ability, they are killed immediately. To keep Slaneesh away as long as possible.

Thanks for this thread, here';s my two cents on a few sections:

Harriticus wrote:-The Inquisition still retains the 3 classic Ordo Militants it seems. It is flatly said that the Grey Knights are the Ordo Militant of the Ordo Malleus, the Deathwatch Ordo Xenos, while the SoB maintain "close ties" with the Ordo Hereticus. The SoB don't seem to be formally an Ordo Militant but a de facto one.

The sisters were only brought into the Hereticus militants order during their short lived witchhunters 'dex iirc. Before and after they have been keepers of the imperial faith, devout beyond belief.

-The Tau-Ultramarines alliance or Tau ties to the Emperor is never alluded to. Beyond the Allied chart there's no explanation why the Astartes and Tau are brothers in arms.

Que? that just makes no fething sense... Battle Brothers? no... at best I'd have thought Desperate Allies...

-The excerpt about the Golden Throne malfunctioning is in there, but it's the exact same one from 5th Edition. No progress. The only new bit of info really is that the Golden Throne requires far more psyker sacrifices than it used to, about four times the original level.

New info on it is highly unlikely tbh... The Tyranid invasion has come on leaps and bounds, but certain parts of the 40K timeline will stay in limbo to add to the air of illusion Gw attempt to create. the golden throne is one of them, as well as the primarchs return.

-A major war against the Hrud occurred in M35, the "Hrud Rising". If GW is ever going to add another Xenos race (unlikely), but guess is it'll be Hrud by this point.

Unlikely to be the Hrud, as they were largely purged until they became a nomadic race... now they avoid imperial space and hate the sight of humans for what they have done. if they turn up as a dex I'd be surprised as they'd have to be few but powerful. It would be nice to see alien races with dex's though... its something I feel is silly... theres more imperial dex's than aliens... makes NO SENSE.

-The Adeptus Mechanicus is no longer part of the Adeptus Terra. It is separate and reports directly to the High Lords of Terra, like the Ecclesiarchy.

I may have missed something, but I thought that had always been the case, with them reporting whatever the hell they wanted to lols.

-During the Dark Age of Technology, mankind went on an alien-extermination campaign. Many xenos species were wiped out and their worlds colonized by humanity. Humanity had some sort of relations with the Eldar during this time, and also mentioned Orks (undoubtedly meaning wars with them). Today, often invasions by lesser alien races on "Imperial" worlds are just attempts to reclaim their lost homelands

Yeah this ties in with what I said about the Hrud above.

-A few new Xenos seem to be mentioned. The Zygo live on Camgia have successfully fought off Imperial invasions for the last 500 years, The Dracolith, an emerging alien empire mentioned in 5th edition, are described as being chrystalline beings. There's a big picture with an illustrtion of lots of interesting-looking minor Xenos races. However none are identified by name. Frustrating.

Might be worth picking up the Fantasy Flight series of RP books for 40k, theres a wealth of source material in there which contains a lot of races never mentioned anywhere else.

-Dark Eldar don't just seem to not use Farseers and Warlocks and what have you, they are stated to not be psychic altogether. No explanation as to how this difference from Craftworld Eldar took place.

It's been touched upon in other fluff lost in the annals of GW history, iirc the reason for it was to not draw unwanted attention from Slaanesh the being they helped create during "the Fall"

-Tyranid Hive Fleets encountered are described as consisting of millions of Bio-ships each with millions of Tyranids on board. So it seems that Hive Fleets can easily approach the trillions figure in size.

Something I kinda had an idea about, but now its nice to see its actually canonical fluff.

-Tyranids fight with each other now. Hive Fleets compete with each other and clash over food on planets. The Hive Mind is still stated to be directing the overall Tyranid race regardless of this, this is probably the stupidest thing in the Codex.

This makes no sense what so ever... why in the name of holy trent reznor would they fight between fleets when controlled by the same mind... thats like eating your own hand but forgetting its part of you... i mean seriously GW... SERIOUSLY?

-The Tyranid Hive Fleets seen so far are just a splinter of the 1 furthest tendril of the main Tyranid invasion force in the galactic void.

Again, something a lot of players already assumed, so nice for the confirmation at least.

-The section on Chaos is entitled "The Greatest Threat". They get a lot of fluff dedicated to them, Chaos as a whole has a level of fluff coverage (almost 20 pages) only the Imperium surpasses in page amount. Hyperbole, or is GW making Chaos out to be the big baddie again? With downgrading the Tyranids to fighting one another, who knows.

Yes, because chaos are the obvious threat to the galaxy... not some extra galactic race thats consumed billions of worlds already, and is most likely still doing the same in other galaxies... again GW, bravo on something altogether nonsensical...

-Chaos is definetly displayed in a more united fashion of CSM, Daemons, and heretics working towards a common goal. CSM/Daemon/Cultist fluff is all intermingled together and their models showcase are intertwined together under the title "The Great Enemy"

About time...

-Abaddon's Black Crusades are described more as repeated blows to the Imperium to gradually weaken it and as part of a greater plan, rather then 13 separate attempts to march on Terra. None of the Black Crusades are described even as failures. GW trying to end the stereotype of Faildabbon I take it.

Well it'd be nice to hear that rather than the "whats that abbadon, you failed again, oh ok, we might be the chaos gods, but will let you of again..." yes, because Chaos is gratious liek that... :faceplam: again Gw

-The Ulumeathic League has been destroyed

Hmmm interesting, I have no idea who the Ulumiathi are, but it certainly explains Ordos Xenos having use of the Ulumiathi Plasma Syphon (which is a godsend btw against a lot of nurgle players )

-The Space Marines are only connected to the Imperial hierarchy by a dotted arrow (everyone else has a straight solid line), perhaps indicating their further dependence

Hopefully they are putting paid to the dependancies on SM's now then... because they have made them out to be the Imperiums last great hope for at least a decade... silly GW...

-Not only are Tau and Smurfs not allies, there's accounts of them fighting in 999.[[M41]]. The allied chart is making less sense.

this just made me lol :thumsbup:

On a separate note, the Dark Angels seem to take center stage here. They have cover art, back art, and the intro art for the Space Marine section.

Nice to see them take the spotlight back again after all this time... anything is better than ultrasmurphs....

AnUnearthlyChilde wrote:

The Inquisition still retains the 3 classic Ordo Militants it seems. It is flatly said that the Grey Knights are the Ordo Militant of the Ordo Malleus, the Deathwatch Ordo Xenos, while the SoB maintain "close ties" with the Ordo Hereticus. The SoB don't seem to be formally an Ordo Militant but a de facto one.

The sisters were only brought into the Hereticus militants order during their short lived witchhunters 'dex iirc. Before and after they have been keepers of the imperial faith, devout beyond belief.

The Sisters have always been the Ecclesiarchy's standing army, primarily, just that with 3E an alliance with the Ordo Hereticus was thrown in on top of that. 6E seems to only mention this pact in passing, though, so one could say that whilst not being an actual retcon it is a change in "focus of presentation" - if that description makes any sense?

AnUnearthlyChilde wrote:

-The Adeptus Mechanicus is no longer part of the Adeptus Terra. It is separate and reports directly to the High Lords of Terra, like the Ecclesiarchy.

I may have missed something, but I thought that had always been the case, with them reporting whatever the hell they wanted to lols.

I thought this was always so, but upon looking at the older chart in the Codex Imperialis I did notice that this was changed indeed. Makes more sense this way, too, alluding to the relative sovereignty of the Mechanicus "satellite state(s)".

AnUnearthlyChilde wrote:

There's a big picture with an illustrtion of lots of interesting-looking minor Xenos races. However none are identified by name. Frustrating.

Might be worth picking up the Fantasy Flight series of RP books for 40k, theres a wealth of source material in there which contains a lot of races never mentioned anywhere else.

You could just as well make them up yourself, though. Sadly, there is little overarching consistency between the various sources, owing to how the franchise is run. So book B cares little for what was said in book A, especially when it was produced by an entirely different team of writers. :I

But if you're interested, here's something from the old 4E rulebook - I'm too lazy to check if these are the same xenos right now.
http://img841.imageshack.us/img841/4673/xenos.jpg

AnUnearthlyChilde wrote:

Tyranids fight with each other now. Hive Fleets compete with each other and clash over food on planets. The Hive Mind is still stated to be directing the overall Tyranid race regardless of this, this is probably the stupidest thing in the Codex.

This makes no sense what so ever... why in the name of holy trent reznor would they fight between fleets when controlled by the same mind... thats like eating your own hand but forgetting its part of you... i mean seriously GW... SERIOUSLY?

This was discussed in another thread (I forgot which), but it does make some sense when you consider that this infighting would serve to improve the victor. The biomass of the loser is absorbed and transformed into the superior strain, making the Hive even stronger than before. It's like some sort of military maneuver as a means to try out new tactics and equipment ... just with live ammunition.

Lynata wrote:

AnUnearthlyChilde wrote:

The Inquisition still retains the 3 classic Ordo Militants it seems. It is flatly said that the Grey Knights are the Ordo Militant of the Ordo Malleus, the Deathwatch Ordo Xenos, while the SoB maintain "close ties" with the Ordo Hereticus. The SoB don't seem to be formally an Ordo Militant but a de facto one.

The sisters were only brought into the Hereticus militants order during their short lived witchhunters 'dex iirc. Before and after they have been keepers of the imperial faith, devout beyond belief.

The Sisters have always been the Ecclesiarchy's standing army, primarily, just that with 3E an alliance with the Ordo Hereticus was thrown in on top of that. 6E seems to only mention this pact in passing, though, so one could say that whilst not being an actual retcon it is a change in "focus of presentation" - if that description makes any sense?

Yeah makes sense I guess, when I said keepers of the faith I meant Ecclesiarchy It never made much sense that they were the Hereticus Ordos Militant imo, especially how Sisters came to be (orphaned girls who were brought up in devout belief of imperial truth making them the ultimate and unswerving warrior)

Lynata wrote:

AnUnearthlyChilde wrote:

There's a big picture with an illustrtion of lots of interesting-looking minor Xenos races. However none are identified by name. Frustrating.

Might be worth picking up the Fantasy Flight series of RP books for 40k, theres a wealth of source material in there which contains a lot of races never mentioned anywhere else.

You could just as well make them up yourself, though. Sadly, there is little overarching consistency between the various sources, owing to how the franchise is run. So book B cares little for what was said in book A, especially when it was produced by an entirely different team of writers. :I

But if you're interested, here's something from the old 4E rulebook - I'm too lazy to check if these are the same xenos right now.
http://img841.imageshack.us/img841/4673/xenos.jpg

cheers for that, all of those either existed in Rogue Trader of have since been brought into the game. Yeah someone told me there were inconsistencies in the books, but, as GW sanction them they are still canon, not sure if thats a good thing or not.

Lynata wrote:

AnUnearthlyChilde wrote:

Tyranids fight with each other now. Hive Fleets compete with each other and clash over food on planets. The Hive Mind is still stated to be directing the overall Tyranid race regardless of this, this is probably the stupidest thing in the Codex.

This makes no sense what so ever... why in the name of holy trent reznor would they fight between fleets when controlled by the same mind... thats like eating your own hand but forgetting its part of you... i mean seriously GW... SERIOUSLY?

This was discussed in another thread (I forgot which), but it does make some sense when you consider that this infighting would serve to improve the victor. The biomass of the loser is absorbed and transformed into the superior strain, making the Hive even stronger than before. It's like some sort of military maneuver as a means to try out new tactics and equipment ... just with live ammunition.

I've always seen it from another point of view tbh... the way I see it is that each tendril will evolve differently due to biomass ingestion, but when fleets combine, they simply merge their genetic data in some form of weird tendrilled mating thing, and from then on they act as one fleet. Fighting costs energy, energy means biomass lost, which seems pointless imo. but thats just the way I interpret Tyranid fluff, as a lot of it is illogical from a biology and nature point of view (I like things to at least have some form of sense/logic, even if it is a sci-fi game).

AnUnearthlyChilde wrote:

Lynata wrote:

AnUnearthlyChilde wrote:

Tyranids fight with each other now. Hive Fleets compete with each other and clash over food on planets. The Hive Mind is still stated to be directing the overall Tyranid race regardless of this, this is probably the stupidest thing in the Codex.

This makes no sense what so ever... why in the name of holy trent reznor would they fight between fleets when controlled by the same mind... thats like eating your own hand but forgetting its part of you... i mean seriously GW... SERIOUSLY?

This was discussed in another thread (I forgot which), but it does make some sense when you consider that this infighting would serve to improve the victor. The biomass of the loser is absorbed and transformed into the superior strain, making the Hive even stronger than before. It's like some sort of military maneuver as a means to try out new tactics and equipment ... just with live ammunition.

I've always seen it from another point of view tbh... the way I see it is that each tendril will evolve differently due to biomass ingestion, but when fleets combine, they simply merge their genetic data in some form of weird tendrilled mating thing, and from then on they act as one fleet. Fighting costs energy, energy means biomass lost, which seems pointless imo. but thats just the way I interpret Tyranid fluff, as a lot of it is illogical from a biology and nature point of view (I like things to at least have some form of sense/logic, even if it is a sci-fi game).

This is not new, this has been in the background since the 3rd ed Nid codex. It says that they recover the biomass at a rate of 100% efficiency. Obviously this ignores the laws of thermodynamics, but hey, it''s 40k.

Glorioski wrote:

AnUnearthlyChilde wrote:

Lynata wrote:

AnUnearthlyChilde wrote:

Tyranids fight with each other now. Hive Fleets compete with each other and clash over food on planets. The Hive Mind is still stated to be directing the overall Tyranid race regardless of this, this is probably the stupidest thing in the Codex.

This makes no sense what so ever... why in the name of holy trent reznor would they fight between fleets when controlled by the same mind... thats like eating your own hand but forgetting its part of you... i mean seriously GW... SERIOUSLY?

This was discussed in another thread (I forgot which), but it does make some sense when you consider that this infighting would serve to improve the victor. The biomass of the loser is absorbed and transformed into the superior strain, making the Hive even stronger than before. It's like some sort of military maneuver as a means to try out new tactics and equipment ... just with live ammunition.

I've always seen it from another point of view tbh... the way I see it is that each tendril will evolve differently due to biomass ingestion, but when fleets combine, they simply merge their genetic data in some form of weird tendrilled mating thing, and from then on they act as one fleet. Fighting costs energy, energy means biomass lost, which seems pointless imo. but thats just the way I interpret Tyranid fluff, as a lot of it is illogical from a biology and nature point of view (I like things to at least have some form of sense/logic, even if it is a sci-fi game).

This is not new, this has been in the background since the 3rd ed Nid codex. It says that they recover the biomass at a rate of 100% efficiency. Obviously this ignores the laws of thermodynamics, but hey, it''s 40k.

What I'm also talking about is the sure they regain 100% biomass, but, it takes time to "regrow" ships and minions, but biomass is also expended as "fuel" to fight and "birth" the troops. Its a totally inefficient way of waging war as the supposedly highest predator on the food chain... wholesale accepted assimilation is much more efficient and logical as a superior predator, which is what the Tyranid race is supposed to be.

Yeah I know its been in the background since 3rd ed. But Tyranids also used to take "slave races" like Zoats, just because GW writes it, doesnt mean it makes sense As I said before, I prefer it to make sense, and therefore be logical. expending biomass just to assimilate another hive fleet is inefficient, and provides a huge flaw in the race... and considering GW has led us to believe that the tyranid species lacks any flaws other than the speed in which it can adapt, its just plain silly.

Sorry don't mean to sound argumentative, I'm just a little perturbed that GW leave large rediculous loopholes like this...

AnUnearthlyChilde wrote:cheers for that, all of those either existed in Rogue Trader of have since been brought into the game. Yeah someone told me there were inconsistencies in the books, but, as GW sanction them they are still canon, not sure if thats a good thing or not.

Well, according to the people actually writing this material, there is no such thing as a "canon". Only lots of different interpretations. One could say that even a fanfic is as valid as anything officially published under the label. It's just that most fans have somehow adopted the rules of other franchises, regardless of how GW actually handles it.

AnUnearthlyChilde wrote:I've always seen it from another point of view tbh... the way I see it is that each tendril will evolve differently due to biomass ingestion, but when fleets combine, they simply merge their genetic data in some form of weird tendrilled mating thing, and from then on they act as one fleet. Fighting costs energy, energy means biomass lost, which seems pointless imo. but thats just the way I interpret Tyranid fluff, as a lot of it is illogical from a biology and nature point of view (I like things to at least have some form of sense/logic, even if it is a sci-fi game).

Hmmm, consuming one another is a viable way of "merging" their genetic data. For actual mating, I suppose this could only happen if the Norn Queens would somehow leave their place in the Fleet to meet and make out with each other. I think your theory would work, if you'd flesh it out some to account for these difficulties (assuming you want to go by how the Norn Queens have been described so far), but at the same time I think simply attacking each other is a possible way, too. It's not like an entire Hive Fleet would have to tear another entire Hive Fleet apart - just think of it as some sort of regular "gladiatorial duels" with a couple hundred 'nids per side, when they're not busy with an actual enemy? Works as a justification for those "blue on blue" TT games, I think (which I believe was GW's reason to write it this way).

Lynata wrote:

AnUnearthlyChilde wrote:I've always seen it from another point of view tbh... the way I see it is that each tendril will evolve differently due to biomass ingestion, but when fleets combine, they simply merge their genetic data in some form of weird tendrilled mating thing, and from then on they act as one fleet. Fighting costs energy, energy means biomass lost, which seems pointless imo. but thats just the way I interpret Tyranid fluff, as a lot of it is illogical from a biology and nature point of view (I like things to at least have some form of sense/logic, even if it is a sci-fi game).

Hmmm, consuming one another is a viable way of "merging" their genetic data. For actual mating, I suppose this could only happen if the Norn Queens would somehow leave their place in the Fleet to meet and make out with each other. I think your theory would work, if you'd flesh it out some to account for these difficulties (assuming you want to go by how the Norn Queens have been described so far), but at the same time I think simply attacking each other is a possible way, too. It's not like an entire Hive Fleet would have to tear another entire Hive Fleet apart - just think of it as some sort of regular "gladiatorial duels" with a couple hundred 'nids per side, when they're not busy with an actual enemy? Works as a justification for those "blue on blue" TT games, I think (which I believe was GW's reason to write it this way).

I can see where your going with this, but from the gladiatorial point of view, sure they can assimilate whats on the planet, but short of the hive ships in orbit beaching themselves on the planet I can't see another way of their genetic data being consumed into the whole other than "Mating"

The mating idea for me would work in the following manor: All Hive ships have feeder tendrils which they lower into orbit once the biomass below has been liquefied into its nommy soup for digestion. It wouldn't be a massive stretch for the same ships to have a tendril or two for "mating" or the "sharing of genetic data", because the Hive ships birth pretty much everything in the fleet, including additional ships for the fleet, but because some ships grow larger than that can be birthed, they "feed" from the hive ships to give them the energy needed for their final growth spurts. The rest of the fleet is allowed to consume the remaining biomass on the planet below after the hive ship has had its fair share. like hierarchical feeding, much like how synapse works. So maybe breeding would go this way too.

one of the things GW shies away from is "sex" within all their ranges. while I can understand that there are a lot of young players out there, there are infinitely more veteran players that exist. So it would be nice if they covered the blank's in the background like the differing ways Xenos breed/mate but equally sexual tension between humans/astartes which will still exist in the 40Th millennium. All they need do is release books aimed at adults, because lets face it, GW release books with horrific scenes of death, but leave out the sex.. makes sense? I don't think!

AnUnearthlyChilde wrote:

-A major war against the Hrud occurred in M35, the "Hrud Rising". If GW is ever going to add another Xenos race (unlikely), but guess is it'll be Hrud by this point.

Unlikely to be the Hrud, as they were largely purged until they became a nomadic race... now they avoid imperial space and hate the sight of humans for what they have done. if they turn up as a dex I'd be surprised as they'd have to be few but powerful. It would be nice to see alien races with dex's though... its something I feel is silly... theres more imperial dex's than aliens... makes NO SENSE.

On the other hand, this could be a good thing! Let me explain. You can either have the (in my opinion) crappy 'official' style of the swamp-thing, wearing flairs doing the 'haters gonna hate' walk (pictured below in spoiler tags) from the fairy/santa claus killing 'Xenomorphs' book, or you can have the much cooler concept* of something that are like 'space skaven'. For the latter, there are the rather cool and growing range of models by Mantic called the 'Veer-myn', which I happen to know a few people are collecting and then fielding using the Dark Eldar rules.


* Scientifically proven to be the case, if you must know!

In answer to your other point, the reason there are far more human/marine codecies than any other is because they sell better. It's the reason why Wood Elf players have to wait so long (it was just as bad last time), the Dark Eldar were rumoured to have a Tyranid Hive fleet head to Commoragh to erase their existence (before the decision was made to relaunch the range) and numerous other races/aliens have massive gaps between codex releases. In the case of something like the aforementioned elves, while they might have a universally admired and critically acclaimed model range, sadly its $ that counts, and while 98% of the GW target demographic is 12-14 years tugging on mum's sleeve, they will nearly always go for the guys in big shoulder pads.

Pacific wrote:On the other hand, this could be a good thing! Let me explain. You can either have the (in my opinion) crappy 'official' style of the swamp-thing, wearing flairs doing the 'haters gonna hate' walk (pictured below in spoiler tags) from the fairy/santa claus killing 'Xenomorphs' book, or you can have the much cooler concept* of something that are like 'space skaven'. For the latter, there are the rather cool and growing range of models by Mantic called the 'Veer-myn', which I happen to know a few people are collecting and then fielding using the Dark Eldar rules.

The Veer-myn are ok at best, tbh they are space skaven, and its obvious. With the Hrud, the supposed "haters gonna hate" walk is to do with the fact they have spine-like arms and legs, so bend as such. those Hrud are infinitely better, and are a genuinely more original concept than space skaven... also, that picture doesn't do the hrud justice. They also amazing technology and the ability to go into liquifraction instantly upon death.

Pacific wrote:In answer to your other point, the reason there are far more human/marine codecies than any other is because they sell better. It's the reason why Wood Elf players have to wait so long (it was just as bad last time), the Dark Eldar were rumoured to have a Tyranid Hive fleet head to Commoragh to erase their existence (before the decision was made to relaunch the range) and numerous other races/aliens have massive gaps between codex releases. In the case of something like the aforementioned elves, while they might have a universally admired and critically acclaimed model range, sadly its $ that counts, and while 98% of the GW target demographic is 12-14 years tugging on mum's sleeve, they will nearly always go for the guys in big shoulder pads.

If they put as much thought into pushing SM's as they did the other races then maybe the other races would sell just as well. Also the Dark Eldar would never have been written out that way, comorragh does not exist in real space, it sits in a pocket dimension. Tyranids only exist within real-space, they do not use warp travel and seemingly do not perceive any other realm, as they generally do not contain the biomass they need. Dark Eldar were always going to be updated, otherwise they would have stopped selling the gak '97 release models a very long time ago before release. As for the kids going to SM's thats just marketing... as I said before, if GW put an ounce more effort into their other races then maybe, just maybe the system wouldn't stagnate in marine hell... and that goes for chaos too, even if I am an Iron Warriors player too.

AnUnearthlyChilde wrote:
If they put as much thought into pushing SM's as they did the other races then maybe the other races would sell just as well. Also the Dark Eldar would never have been written out that way, comorragh does not exist in real space, it sits in a pocket dimension. Tyranids only exist within real-space, they do not use warp travel and seemingly do not perceive any other realm, as they generally do not contain the biomass they need. Dark Eldar were always going to be updated, otherwise they would have stopped selling the gak '97 release models a very long time ago before release. As for the kids going to SM's thats just marketing... as I said before, if GW put an ounce more effort into their other races then maybe, just maybe the system wouldn't stagnate in marine hell... and that goes for chaos too, even if I am an Iron Warriors player too.

I was just trying to inject a bit of humour into the post, but fair play for trying to rationalise what I wrote there! There was a rumour years ago when I worked for GW that the company was seriously considering dropping the Dark Eldar altogether, or at least letting them slide into obsolescence. This wasn't just 1 person saying "I think this will happen", but a rumour that you had heard enough from different sources, listings missing on order forms, recalls of stock and things like that, that made you think it was credible. As the Nids had become the convenient 'galactic vacuum cleaner', of removing the Squats from the game universe, then at that time there were lots of jokes going around that perhaps a Nid fleet had a taste for Dark Eldar and was on its way to remove that race as well.

I agree with you about the other races getting more of an effort, but I think there is just something about the younger teenager demographic that is attracted to the concept of the genetically enhanced super-hero. Not just teenagers of course, but it's not coincidence that as the game has been increasingly marketed at a younger audience, the focus on Marines has actually increased with each passing edition. Personally I think the new Dark Eldar range absolutely stomps on any of the marine ranges in terms of sculpting quality - if anything, they serve to highlight how dated some of that range is now - but I would hazard a guess that sales wise they don't even come close to Marines.

Pacific wrote:I was just trying to inject a bit of humour into the post, but fair play for trying to rationalise what I wrote there! There was a rumour years ago when I worked for GW that the company was seriously considering dropping the Dark Eldar altogether, or at least letting them slide into obsolescence. This wasn't just 1 person saying "I think this will happen", but a rumour that you had heard enough from different sources, listings missing on order forms, recalls of stock and things like that, that made you think it was credible. As the Nids had become the convenient 'galactic vacuum cleaner', of removing the Squats from the game universe, then at that time there were lots of jokes going around that perhaps a Nid fleet had a taste for Dark Eldar and was on its way to remove that race as well.

I agree with you about the other races getting more of an effort, but I think there is just something about the younger teenager demographic that is attracted to the concept of the genetically enhanced super-hero. Not just teenagers of course, but it's not coincidence that as the game has been increasingly marketed at a younger audience, the focus on Marines has actually increased with each passing edition. Personally I think the new Dark Eldar range absolutely stomps on any of the marine ranges in terms of sculpting quality - if anything, they serve to highlight how dated some of that range is now - but I would hazard a guess that sales wise they don't even come close to Marines.

Thankfully squats are no longer eaten... I guess Tyranids puked them up?

I don't see how kids these days don't see that an all devouring race of pangalactic aliens or murderous sadistic outcast alien pirates that deal in souls?

kids just don't have imaginations these days anymore *le sigh*