as i imagine everyone has already done, the release of 6th probally brought up alot of issues for existing armies, and major changes to certain lists. in any case, this thread is NOT a whine/rant/hate thread for 6th. instead, suggestions for how existing popular lists, or even just your own can change and adapt to the new rules. if you need help with suggestions, post it and hopefully we can provide a flame/gripe/whine free discussion on adaptive army building, tatics and changes as a result of 6th.

(apologies to mods if this should be in tatics instead - please move if required)

anyway i will start:

DE venomspams. the major hurdles i noticed, was hull points potentially glancing venoms to quick death, where before a glance was almost a "free pass", the fact that damage results can affect passengers (foring only snap shots etc). that said, the changes to rapid fire, addition of overwatch and movement speeds make the list much speedier, and potentially alot shootier. the trick, i think is to protect the vehicles and keep them out of sight, or use them as screens. now, obviously this is only a suggestion, but im thinking a venomspam list can suceed by simply deploying the venoms empty. have the warriors/trueborn on foot, deployed in cover (or even a fortification like an aegis line or something). this allows your venoms to zip around and spray fire, while your warriors are now seperate targets, able to rapid fire with impunity, and for the most part not worry about incoming damage on their vehicles. the list still employs a ton of venoms, but by deploying seperatly you double units on field, and thus double your target saturation. granted, the infantry now face possible fire from other units... but thats a risk taken in general. (i would also suggest the inclusion of the razorwing over the ravager as fliers are now just awsome, and really have an edge over the ravager wich is easier to hit). so... i think venomspam armies have remained static in power level. vehicle nerfs make them a little more fragile, but infantry buffs and fliers add quite a bonus.

otherwise, i would like to see comments for stuff like longfangs, kanwalls, imotekh and or scarab farms, IG gunlines/leafblowers... or any other list.

DE WWP, cannot assault out of the portal, makes the list useless

Looks like we may see the end of the hydra flak tank spam list for guard. It has sky fire so can hit flyers easily using normal BS but doesn't have the Interceptor rule so can only snap fire anything else - just checked in the FAQ! So BS1 for every other ground based model!

well for WWP... why not switch out to half range fire units.and then your beefy assault guys. deploy the range fire team out of the portal first, and have them advance, with support from the assault based infantry. not sure, but i *think* bikes and hellions might actually be a touch better in 6th with the bonus to rapid fire, turbo boost and adding jink saves.

as for hydras, i havent seen them used too much here. however i think lemun russ spam is definitly going away, since they can now be glanced to death.

incidently... dark/bright lance weapons just got a TON better imho, since they now have a good chance of just removing the vehicle from hull points, and are cheap enough to be able to take alot of them. (wich is also why i like the voidraven now.. a pair of str 9 lance... tyvm!)

Meltavets are taking the biggest hit by far. Beyond the fact that they are far more redundant (you can kill a tank with 3 meltas outright anyway, but even if you don't 3 penetrating or glancing hits will kill most vehicles anyway), their transports have been nerfed and due to rapid fire changes plasma vets are much better against infantry due to getting a long range shot even if they do move.

Buttons wrote:Meltavets are taking the biggest hit by far. Beyond the fact that they are far more redundant (you can kill a tank with 3 meltas outright anyway, but even if you don't 3 penetrating or glancing hits will kill most vehicles anyway), their transports have been nerfed and due to rapid fire changes plasma vets are much better against infantry due to getting a long range shot even if they do move.

plasmavets + Vendetta.

Crisis suits got nerfed hard, as target locks no longer do anything... biggest nerf ever.
Also, psychic hoods are no longer as powerful (6" range, 5+ (regular)/4+(epistolary)) defy the witch... while space wolves still have their happy happy 4+ 24" range magic runic weapons.... dumb

BaronIveagh wrote:

Buttons wrote:Meltavets are taking the biggest hit by far. Beyond the fact that they are far more redundant (you can kill a tank with 3 meltas outright anyway, but even if you don't 3 penetrating or glancing hits will kill most vehicles anyway), their transports have been nerfed and due to rapid fire changes plasma vets are much better against infantry due to getting a long range shot even if they do move.

plasmavets + Vendetta.

Haven't gotten the book yet. Have there been changes to fire points? If not plasma vets in a chimera would be a rape machine, 3 str 7 shots at 24" if it moves, 6 str 7 shots at 12" if it moves or 24" if it doesn't in an AV 12 platform is terrifying to everything except AV 14.

Buttons wrote:

BaronIveagh wrote:

Buttons wrote:Meltavets are taking the biggest hit by far. Beyond the fact that they are far more redundant (you can kill a tank with 3 meltas outright anyway, but even if you don't 3 penetrating or glancing hits will kill most vehicles anyway), their transports have been nerfed and due to rapid fire changes plasma vets are much better against infantry due to getting a long range shot even if they do move.

plasmavets + Vendetta.

Haven't gotten the book yet. Have there been changes to fire points? If not plasma vets in a chimera would be a rape machine, 3 str 7 shots at 24" if it moves, 6 str 7 shots at 12" if it moves or 24" if it doesn't in an AV 12 platform is terrifying to everything except AV 14.

Well, if they're shaken or stunned then the occupants can't fire.

But with hull points, they can still fire at full efficiency unless they are penetrated/destroyed.

Easier to take out, but more reliable until they are taken out.

StarHunter25 wrote:Crisis suits got nerfed hard, as target locks no longer do anything... biggest nerf ever.
Also, psychic hoods are no longer as powerful (6" range, 5+ (regular)/4+(epistolary)) defy the witch... while space wolves still have their happy happy 4+ 24" range magic runic weapons.... dumb

Yes and no. Yes we can't target multiple units because of the now Target Lock, but the A.S.S. can now move a full 6" and fire their Rail Cannons, and we only need 1 BSF per squad to negate the effects of Night Fighting. Fire Knifes Suits are more useful and effective now at taking down lightly Armored vehicles as every glance takes off a Hull point than Death Rains.

Kaldor wrote:

Buttons wrote:

BaronIveagh wrote:

Buttons wrote:Meltavets are taking the biggest hit by far. Beyond the fact that they are far more redundant (you can kill a tank with 3 meltas outright anyway, but even if you don't 3 penetrating or glancing hits will kill most vehicles anyway), their transports have been nerfed and due to rapid fire changes plasma vets are much better against infantry due to getting a long range shot even if they do move.

plasmavets + Vendetta.

Haven't gotten the book yet. Have there been changes to fire points? If not plasma vets in a chimera would be a rape machine, 3 str 7 shots at 24" if it moves, 6 str 7 shots at 12" if it moves or 24" if it doesn't in an AV 12 platform is terrifying to everything except AV 14.

Well, if they're shaken or stunned then the occupants can't fire.

But with hull points, they can still fire at full efficiency unless they are penetrated/destroyed.

Easier to take out, but more reliable until they are taken out.

Sounds like Plasma vets are much better now. They may be expensive, but 3 str 6 and 3 str 7 shots on the move in an AV 12 platform is terrifying to everything. Plus you can now fire 6 str 7, 3 str 6, 3 str 5, 3 str 4, and 4 str 3 shots if it doesn't move and you add a heavy stubber. Gets even worse when your army includes 4-6 squads of plasma vets, possibly with storm troopers tossed in.

Kanwalls are obviously gone because there's no point. They just lost their 4+ save, which was the entire point for using the wall of Kans. Now they get a 5+ save, which you can give to footsloggers without the Kan. It's now a purposeless tactic.

I don't even know if anyone's going to use Killa Kans any more to be honest. The fact of the matter is I think GW was trying to make the unused or unusable stuff in the Codex seem more interesting, which means, hey, Killa Kans and Big Meks are overused, let's nerf the piss out of them. Nobody uses Nob bikers any more, so let's buff them. Everyone says Stormboyz suck, buff them. Everybody says MANz can't be used in the current meta, buff them. Ghaz is used all the time because he's a monster, nerf him, Snikrot, likewise.

And that's basically how it went down, bros.

Wierdboyz apparently will always suck, though.

Add to it a potentally much further jump back distance for crisis suits and that you only need to get 25% covered (from the firing squads perspective) they should live a little longer to get some shots out.

Draigowing got a major hit. Their prefered tactic was to load a Libby and Pallies in a Raven and zoom them on, and keep everything in reserve to avoid shooting. Now at least 50% must start onboard. Not only that but wound Allocation has gone down the drain and everyone has a save against their powers. I don't even know what has happened to their Force Weapons yet.

I think people need to get over the loss of the 4+ cover save. One of the worst things about 5th edition. I for one am very glad its gone.

I played orks back when everything was a 5+ and it required fortifications like bunkers to get anything better.

Kans still have a lot going for them. S10 AP2 BS3 grot zookas or big shootas, immune to S4 or worse guns (from the front) and a fairly cheep price tag.

I just don't understand why you would want a relentless assault unit with an assault shooting attack, no option for a transport, and no benefit from WAAAGH moves.

BS3 Assault 1 S8 for 50 points? Really? Since when is that good?

Jayden63 wrote:I think people need to get over the loss of the 4+ cover save. One of the worst things about 5th edition. I for one am very glad its gone.

I played orks back when everything was a 5+ and it required fortifications like bunkers to get anything better.

Kans still have a lot going for them. S10 AP2 BS3 grot zookas or big shootas, immune to S4 or worse guns (from the front) and a fairly cheep price tag.

Kans are still one of the few of my favorite ways to deal with mind shackle scarabs. Grotzookas are still amazing, just not as survivable I'd admit but then again I'm hoping a dakka jet or so will help alot to offset the changes. (I really found a bad time to get the kan wall complete, even just 6 buggies lol now they'll likely sit out for the jets)

Buttons wrote:Sounds like Plasma vets are much better now. They may be expensive, but 3 str 6 and 3 str 7 shots on the move in an AV 12 platform is terrifying to everything. Plus you can now fire 6 str 7, 3 str 6, 3 str 5, 3 str 4, and 4 str 3 shots if it doesn't move and you add a heavy stubber. Gets even worse when your army includes 4-6 squads of plasma vets, possibly with storm troopers tossed in.

Yep. Everyone is moaning that hull points make vehicles too fragile, but facing off against multiple Chimera mounted Veteran squads is going to be a nightmare. Gone are the days of just glancing them, and then ignoring them for the rest of the turn.

Honestly, I like this system much better.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Deadshot wrote:Draigowing got a major hit. Their prefered tactic was to load a Libby and Pallies in a Raven and zoom them on, and keep everything in reserve to avoid shooting. Now at least 50% must start onboard. Not only that but wound Allocation has gone down the drain and everyone has a save against their powers. I don't even know what has happened to their Force Weapons yet.

Actually, Paladins are listed as infantry characters, meaning each of them get's a 4+ Look Out Sir roll which, if passed, allows them to place the wound on any model they choose within 6".

Wound allocation isn't the same, but it's still there. Better in some aspects, worse in others.

DarthSpader wrote:well for WWP... why not switch out to half range fire units.and then your beefy assault guys. deploy the range fire team out of the portal first, and have them advance, with support from the assault based infantry. not sure, but i *think* bikes and hellions might actually be a touch better in 6th with the bonus to rapid fire, turbo boost and adding jink saves.

as for hydras, i havent seen them used too much here. however i think lemun russ spam is definitly going away, since they can now be glanced to death.

incidently... dark/bright lance weapons just got a TON better imho, since they now have a good chance of just removing the vehicle from hull points, and are cheap enough to be able to take alot of them. (wich is also why i like the voidraven now.. a pair of str 9 lance... tyvm!)

Disintegrators are loads better now.

However, with the WWP list, the best way to have done it would have been 3 venoms with portal haems in, an allied autarch + a squad of something like storm guardians.
So the vast majority of the list would have come through the portals.

BUT - you can't put more than 50% of the army into reserve, you cannot assault out of reserve and Battle Brother Allies cannot use your portals.
So in the above force (My WWP army is.. was.. 20 units, of which 6 didn't go into reserve (the 3 venoms). Leaving 14 TO go into reserve.)
And of course each shooty unit you take is going to reduce your assaulty units, which will come out of the portal, and even with a bubblewrap of shooters, still can't do a thing for a turn, while they likely get shot, and their targets move away.

So instead of being a delivery mechanism for your fragile units to come out, take down a target THEN be left somewhere to get shot half to death, you just get the shot half to death part.

Frankly, I could have lived with the 50% reserves, I could have lived with the no allies through portals thing, either would have been fine to work around and a WWP list would still have been viable. But now I get to shelve I-don't-even-want-to-know how much time and monies worth of scratchbuilt webway portals and extra grotesques, because I already had enough grots to fill 3 raiders to start with.

Death company just got buffed and nerfed. Rage now gives you an extra +1A (on the charge IIRC), and doesn't make you run at anything (best news EVER). Feel no pain is down to a 5+. Also, furious charge only gives a bonus +1 to str, not to Initiative. With 10 of them, that's 50 str 5 attacks on the charge!

Frankly I'm stoked. Now they're not useless without jump packs (at 20 pts each)!!!

Oh and fearless no longer take wounds from losing a combat (not that the above unit has much chance of losing a combat, mwahahaha!).

Thank god i bought all those dkok wep upgrades looks like ill be ripping off all my melta and replacing them with plasma and adding a lc or ac wep team to each squad.
and im for sure going to be a bastard and take a librarian with null zone to really punish wraiths and the like.

Would it not be best now to stack venoms with wyches so that you can disembark charge as its open topped?

It may just be me, but I feel for a mere 75 points, a skyshield landing pad has some potential. No deep strike scatter or dangerous terrain tests may have an impact for DS heavy armies. Combined with the option for shielded.. (maybe?) Aegis line is good too, with cheap reserves manipulation available. Combined with CCS & advisors.. I feel like guard have been buffed in a few ways. More maneuverability, flyers, increased template damage, etc.

Space Wolves Rhino Rush potentially takes a hit. Preventing Rhinos/Razorbacks from moving on one glance can't happen any more, but they're also much easier to explode thanks to hull points. I'm thinking a Grey Hunters footslog list with a Plasma Gun and Wolf Guard Pack Leader in either Terminator or Runic Armour will come about.

I'm thinking Eldar will start using vibro cannons a lot more. 36", auto glance on vehicles, can take 3 in a squadron?

Jayden63 wrote:Add to it a potentally much further jump back distance for crisis suits and that you only need to get 25% covered (from the firing squads perspective) they should live a little longer to get some shots out.

Actually, with the new rapid-fire rules. Enemy small arms are able to move and keep up with the crisis suits if they are using 18-24" range weapons. This means that the suits no longer dance just outside of small arms range and naow have to deal with a torrent of fire that they used to not. All in all, I'd say that the Crisis teams stayed about the same as far as gain vs loss.

Stealthsuits did get a big buff but it then brings up the question,"How much S5 shooting do the Tau really need?" If they were troops it would be different but giving up a plas/missile slot just doesn't seem to be worth it. IMO, We will have to see how the meta shakes out to see if they are now really worth it.

Edit to add:

Bikes and Jump-Infantry lists are much better.

At first when i saw that power swords are just AP3 and dont have that rumored "parry" special rule, i felt nothing but the proverbial RAAAAGGGGEEEE of Khorne (especially since i just finished painting 60 g*d* bloodletters and a dozen blood crushers).

After sleeping on that however, i've come to terms with it. It looks like 6E actually goes some way to help balance a Chaos Daemons list. Overall, i think i've gained more then i lost.

I can now enter play a bit safer (1/6 chance of mishap causing a lost unit)
I can Vector Strike with by 'Thirsters and Princes
I can move much faster with several units
I can Smash vehicles with my MCs and take them out without having to purchase Unholy Strength

and....i cant see U'zuhl Skulltaker EVER loosing a Challenge....ever.

In the end, i think 6E will be a refreshing change-of-pace.

It's hit & miss for the Orks.

Snikrot Kommando's are useless now they cannot assault from Reserve and KFF vehicle saves are now 5+.

On the plus side Flash Gitz get to ignore cover, Bikes T5 vs Instant Death, Lootas can move & snap shot and Zogswort has been given a 2+ Poison.

Deadshot wrote:Draigowing got a major hit. Their prefered tactic was to load a Libby and Pallies in a Raven and zoom them on, and keep everything in reserve to avoid shooting. Now at least 50% must start onboard. Not only that but wound Allocation has gone down the drain and everyone has a save against their powers. I don't even know what has happened to their Force Weapons yet.

They're all AP3 now, except for Daemonhammers which is AP2. Expect a lot more GK Termie units to be equiped with Daemonhammers and a warding stave.

Kavish wrote:Death company just got buffed and nerfed. Rage now gives you an extra +1A (on the charge IIRC), and doesn't make you run at anything (best news EVER). Feel no pain is down to a 5+. Also, furious charge only gives a bonus +1 to str, not to Initiative. With 10 of them, that's 50 str 5 attacks on the charge!

Frankly I'm stoked. Now they're not useless without jump packs (at 20 pts each)!!!

Oh and fearless no longer take wounds from losing a combat (not that the above unit has much chance of losing a combat, mwahahaha!).

DC have Relentless right?

I'm more inclined now to take DC with Boltguns, fire while advancing and then tear apart almost anything in cc.

DC are now only lacking in one area - Special Weapons.

StoneRaizer wrote:Space Wolves Rhino Rush potentially takes a hit. Preventing Rhinos/Razorbacks from moving on one glance can't happen any more, but they're also much easier to explode thanks to hull points. I'm thinking a Grey Hunters footslog list with a Plasma Gun and Wolf Guard Pack Leader in either Terminator or Runic Armour will come about.

I'm thinking Eldar will start using vibro cannons a lot more. 36", auto glance on vehicles, can take 3 in a squadron?

You don't get more hits from using more Vibro Cannons. The shots get stronger, which is irrelevant for shooting against vehicles and plainly a waste of money against normal units.

Are Deathwing Terminator armies now forced to deploy half their Terminators now because of the restrictive 50% reserve rule?

For example, if I'm fielding 32 Deathwing Terminators as my whole army, can I still keep all in reserve and teleport them in (Deathwing assaulting half on my first turn)?

greg0985 wrote:At first when i saw that power swords are just AP3 and dont have that rumored "parry" special rule, i felt nothing but the proverbial RAAAAGGGGEEEE of Khorne (especially since i just finished painting 60 g*d* bloodletters and a dozen blood crushers).

After sleeping on that however, i've come to terms with it. It looks like 6E actually goes some way to help balance a Chaos Daemons list. Overall, i think i've gained more then i lost.

I can now enter play a bit safer (1/6 chance of mishap causing a lost unit)
I can Vector Strike with by 'Thirsters and Princes
I can move much faster with several units
I can Smash vehicles with my MCs and take them out without having to purchase Unholy Strength

and....i cant see U'zuhl Skulltaker EVER loosing a Challenge....ever.

In the end, i think 6E will be a refreshing change-of-pace.

You forgot you can take inv saves on DT checks, DP's can hit at S10, nurgle troops are able to move fully and charge, slaanesh troops get +1 on the penning chart, the defensive nades of slaanesh/nurgle troops within 8" can give them extra cover saves, plague weapons now deal appropriate toughness damage (S4 vs T3 is 3+ with rerolls!) Flamers now absolutely Break Vehicles in range, and can break near everything that attempts to charge them (D3 for each one that ignores armor and hits on 4+? Yeah send that TEQ at it!) whole army has fear, screamers now have a better chance at hitting vehicles with either it being autohit or 3+..

..The only thing that didn't change is furies, they still suck.

If you want to play footguard, you basically need to buy an aegis defense line.

If you start second, and the board lacks cover, you'll need to either reserve or get defense lines to give you the much needed cover. Otherwise, the enemy will alpha the heck out of you with 30" range AP 5 weapons.

I'm rather upset about the changes to Fleet, I feel that not only has it been nerfed into the ground, but so has my 80% melee Tyranid list. Unless we were reading the rules wrong, Raiders and especially Ravagers feel as though they've taken a hit (can only move six inches and fire everything, the being fast vehicle only accounts for extra movement if moving is the main priority seems silly). Dark Lances feel much better (my eight or so glances per turn against my IG friend FINALLY do something other than just roll ones every freaking time). Fliers seem brutally effective and fun, I found the Voidraven to be amazing in my game last night, more than made up its points without even firing a single missile. Scourges seem to be pretty well off too, which is awesome because I love them flavor and model wise, but not awesome because the models are a pain in the butt! One of my favorite units seems to be just as deadly as ever, Duke Sliscus in a Raider with Splinter Cannon/Shardcarbine Trueborn.

Also, melee certainly seems weaker, but I haven't actually tried a whole let yet.

Any Dark Eldar players able to tell me how my beloved Incubi/Bloodbrides/Archon with Huskblade/Lelith are doing in this edition? I didn't get the time to try them in the games I've played.

Fleet still works, its just charge is more chance based, and you can't guarantee 6" charge.

Consider this: in 5th ed, fleet gave an average assault range of 9 or 10 inches, since a d6 average is 3 or 4 (ignoring beast/cavalry here).

In 6th ed, fleet allows ANY charge dice to be re-rolled. The average 2d6 roll is 7, I can't math today, but I'm pretty sure allowing to reroll brings that average to about 9 or 10 inches.

Shadelkan wrote:Fleet still works, its just charge is more chance based, and you can't guarantee 6" charge.

Consider this: in 5th ed, fleet gave an average assault range of 9 or 10 inches, since a d6 average is 3 or 4 (ignoring beast/cavalry here).

In 6th ed, fleet allows ANY charge dice to be re-rolled. The average 2d6 roll is 7, I can't math today, but I'm pretty sure allowing to reroll brings that average to about 9 or 10 inches.

I suppose so, that's an interesting point. I still don't like random charge, and I know I'm not the only one who feels that way, but maybe Fleet isn't as bad as I thought. Until I roll nothing but ones!

Assuming average rolls:
In 5th edition fleet gave someone a 50% chance at a 10+" charge
4+" + 6".

In 6th there is a about a 34% chance at a 10+" charge with fleet.
4/21 chance of 10+ with reroll= ~34%

However, the chance at 9+" chance sits at about 51%
6/21 with reroll. So all in all, fleet has taken only a slight nerf.

The Fragile Breath wrote:I'm rather upset about the changes to Fleet, I feel that not only has it been nerfed into the ground, but so has my 80% melee Tyranid list. Unless we were reading the rules wrong, Raiders and especially Ravagers feel as though they've taken a hit (can only move six inches and fire everything, the being fast vehicle only accounts for extra movement if moving is the main priority seems silly). Dark Lances feel much better (my eight or so glances per turn against my IG friend FINALLY do something other than just roll ones every freaking time). Fliers seem brutally effective and fun, I found the Voidraven to be amazing in my game last night, more than made up its points without even firing a single missile. Scourges seem to be pretty well off too, which is awesome because I love them flavor and model wise, but not awesome because the models are a pain in the butt! One of my favorite units seems to be just as deadly as ever, Duke Sliscus in a Raider with Splinter Cannon/Shardcarbine Trueborn.

Also, melee certainly seems weaker, but I haven't actually tried a whole let yet.

Any Dark Eldar players able to tell me how my beloved Incubi/Bloodbrides/Archon with Huskblade/Lelith are doing in this edition? I didn't get the time to try them in the games I've played.

Ravagers retain Aerial Assault meaning they can move 12" and can fire all their weapons at full BS.
Other fast vehicles can fire 2 at cruising speed, the remainder as snapshots.

The aircraft lose it for no particular reason!
They also don't have hover mode!

Leading to further confusion on my part as to why the Space Marine flyer is cheaper, better armoured, has a hover mode, that gives it +1 BS, etc. But that's another rant alltogether.

I have a feeling footslogger IG will get a bit more buffed, with more ML troops, most likely.

Ovion wrote:

Ravagers retain Aerial Assault meaning they can move 12" and can fire all their weapons at full BS.
Other fast vehicles can fire 2 at cruising speed, the remainder as snapshots.

The aircraft lose it for no particular reason!
They also don't have hover mode!

Leading to further confusion on my part as to why the Space Marine flyer is cheaper, better armoured, has a hover mode, that gives it +1 BS, etc. But that's another rant alltogether.

Oh, my mistake! I thought that all Dark Eldar vehicles lost Aerial Assault, not just the aircraft. It's very silly that our aircraft lost it, but I'm happy at least that our Ravagers didn't take that hit. Because I'm unclear on the rules and don't have the book on hand yet, can Raiders only move six inches and allow their crew to all fire (a Warrior gunboat Raider, etc).

Ovion wrote:

The Fragile Breath wrote:I'm rather upset about the changes to Fleet, I feel that not only has it been nerfed into the ground, but so has my 80% melee Tyranid list. Unless we were reading the rules wrong, Raiders and especially Ravagers feel as though they've taken a hit (can only move six inches and fire everything, the being fast vehicle only accounts for extra movement if moving is the main priority seems silly). Dark Lances feel much better (my eight or so glances per turn against my IG friend FINALLY do something other than just roll ones every freaking time). Fliers seem brutally effective and fun, I found the Voidraven to be amazing in my game last night, more than made up its points without even firing a single missile. Scourges seem to be pretty well off too, which is awesome because I love them flavor and model wise, but not awesome because the models are a pain in the butt! One of my favorite units seems to be just as deadly as ever, Duke Sliscus in a Raider with Splinter Cannon/Shardcarbine Trueborn.

Also, melee certainly seems weaker, but I haven't actually tried a whole let yet.

Any Dark Eldar players able to tell me how my beloved Incubi/Bloodbrides/Archon with Huskblade/Lelith are doing in this edition? I didn't get the time to try them in the games I've played.

Ravagers retain Aerial Assault meaning they can move 12" and can fire all their weapons at full BS.
Other fast vehicles can fire 2 at cruising speed, the remainder as snapshots.

The aircraft lose it for no particular reason!
They also don't have hover mode!

Leading to further confusion on my part as to why the Space Marine flyer is cheaper, better armoured, has a hover mode, that gives it +1 BS, etc. But that's another rant alltogether.

The Fragile Breath wrote:

Ovion wrote:

Ravagers retain Aerial Assault meaning they can move 12" and can fire all their weapons at full BS.
Other fast vehicles can fire 2 at cruising speed, the remainder as snapshots.

The aircraft lose it for no particular reason!
They also don't have hover mode!

Leading to further confusion on my part as to why the Space Marine flyer is cheaper, better armoured, has a hover mode, that gives it +1 BS, etc. But that's another rant alltogether.

Oh, my mistake! I thought that all Dark Eldar vehicles lost Aerial Assault, not just the aircraft. It's very silly that our aircraft lost it, but I'm happy at least that our Ravagers didn't take that hit. Because I'm unclear on the rules and don't have the book on hand yet, can Raiders only move six inches and allow their crew to all fire (a Warrior gunboat Raider, etc).

You two clearly do not have the rulebook. For Flyers, Combat Speed is 18" and Cruising Speed is 36". They cannot be assaulted and can only be hit by shooting weapons on 6s (unless the shooting weapon has the skyfire rule). As for the Voidraven, this means that you can drop the Void Mine and then shoot more weapons, though dropping the bomb counts as using a weapon. You can also only shoot two missiles per shooting phase, so no more unloading your entire payload in a single phase.

Eldar and DE jetbikes can now move 48" in total. They also always have a 5+ cover save, or 4+ if they move Flat Out. So do Skimmers.

I do infact have the rulebook.
Had it since last wednesday.

Infact, I fail to see how my comment leads you to think I don't.
I pointed out that Ravagers still have aerial assault, then went on a minirant at how the razorwing/voidraven lose it + how the spacemarines somehow get a tougher, better armed, more accurate jet that can behave as a skimmer as well, for less points.

Necrons got a huge buff IMO.

Gauss weapons are now insanely good at glancing vehicles to death.
Warscythes are AP 1 and gain +2 on the Damage table.
The Haywire gun is now useful as well.
The Night Scythe doesn't actually count as having its transport unit inside it, so if it crashes the unit it's transporting takes no S10 hits.
Mindshackle scarabs + challenges = good.

Mech Eldar has been nerfed into complete unplayability (as has footdar). T3 models with bad armor and reduced cover simply cannot spend a turn standing out in the open getting shot up by buffed Rapid-Fire, just to take another round of firing from Overwatch the following turn.

Oh and GW decided that Eldar fast skimmers of all kinds - regardless as to the speed they're moving - should have their back armor hittable in CC on a 3+. Wave Serpents went from decent to such utter craptastic nonsense. They suck at delivering CC units and suck at surviving, all for the point cost of four Rhinos!

Tyranid Things with Wings army got a MASSIVE buff, what with Hammer of Wrath and Flying Monstrous Creatures. Zoanthrope Psychic Choir got buffed as well.

Hormagaunts aren't as fast any more but are much nastier in assault outside of Synapse.

Deathleaper got whacked by the Nerfbat and is now sulking in the corner.

We had a brief read over of rules that effected units we usually play last night, and since I play Eldar and Slaanesh Daemons, the fleet rules change is pretty huge to me.

A friend ran the math on old fleet vs new fleet. New fleet charging is 8% worse chance ot making it to the assault. But in the case of Harlequins who always got a 6" assault for ignoring difficult terrain it is much worse.

You now have to plan what you are going to assault in the movement phase, rather than fleeting in the shooting phase and then figuring it out. The new way is less versatile.

The Shadowseer Veil of Tears change means Harlequins will get shot at a lot more. No longer does it provide a better night fighting roll, but a much improved cover save. I foresee my Harlequins getting hit with more fire that ignores cover early.

With the allies rules though, there is going to be some pretty cheesy breakage. We immediately thought of at least 5 last night, more will need to be explored.

Small points games testing to be done soon.

Shadowseer_Kim wrote:We had a brief read over of rules that effected units we usually play last night, and since I play Eldar and Slaanesh Daemons, the fleet rules change is pretty huge to me.

A friend ran the math on old fleet vs new fleet. New fleet charging is 8% worse chance ot making it to the assault. But in the case of Harlequins who always got a 6" assault for ignoring difficult terrain it is much worse.

You now have to plan what you are going to assault in the movement phase, rather than fleeting in the shooting phase and then figuring it out. The new way is less versatile.

The Shadowseer Veil of Tears change means Harlequins will get shot at a lot more. No longer does it provide a better night fighting roll, but a much improved cover save. I foresee my Harlequins getting hit with more fire that ignores cover early.

With the allies rules though, there is going to be some pretty cheesy breakage. We immediately thought of at least 5 last night, more will need to be explored.

Small points games testing to be done soon.

Read the FAQ regarding what sentences the new rules replace and you'll see that the old Veil is still there along with the new powers

DeathwingCrusader wrote:Are Deathwing Terminator armies now forced to deploy half their Terminators now because of the restrictive 50% reserve rule?

For example, if I'm fielding 32 Deathwing Terminators as my whole army, can I still keep all in reserve and teleport them in (Deathwing assaulting half on my first turn)?

If you ellect to use DW assault then you must enter by DS reserve, if so you ignore the restriction on how many units can be put into reserve (page 36).


Deathwing Pro's

* Near universal nerf to PW
* Coming in from reserve is easier
* Universal 2+ saves
* cheap and cheerful HQ (belial)
* even more termies in 2k+
* No more Fearless wounds

Cons:
* FNP now 5+ is slight nerft to one unit in a DW army, so not so bad
* overwatch can really hurt us, this is mainly due to very small units, but this is nothing new
* Land raiders while still "ok" are even less durable now, this sucks lol

to be fair DW have recieved a whole lota buffs and are not really going to suffer from the new edition, when we get a new dex with a bit of luck we can actually start getting some decent low AP guns
*

mercury14 wrote:
Read the FAQ regarding what sentences the new rules replace and you'll see that the old Veil is still there along with the new powers

Ah.. Fantastic!! I still love Harlequins.

Shadowseer_Kim wrote:

Ah.. Fantastic!! I still love Harlequins.

That's what it says. But you wonder if GW in their sloppiness meant to say 'paragraphs' instead of sentences. If the cover buffs are meant to replace the 2d6 tears power then we can just throw our Harlies on the shelf until the next codex. Along with 75% of the rest of our models TBH.

My Skulltaker on a Chariot just got stupidly good. 2+ save, still got 5 attacks and 4 wounds and moves like a vehicle.

Triarch Praetorians got a massive buff, so did all Necron Warrior armies.

Blood Angels got lots of new fun things, plus Vanguard being able to charge 12" after deep strike.

Space Wolves are now easily the most OP army for me, they keep all the silly Runic Weapons, Long Fangs got even more better and Mark of the Wulfen is rending so thats AP2 in combat. Frost Axes are now +2 strength but I1. Thunderwolves still have Fleet but move 12" so they're even faster.

Tau got quite a buff for Fire Warriors but Crisis Suits got nerfed I believe.

GK are still pretty good. Force Weapons are special which is nice and Blind Grenades giving an automatic 6+ cover isn't fantastic but helpful.

Sniper Vets are great, allocating wounds, Snare Mines give a basic 6+ cover, which Camo Cloaks boost to 5+, and thats just in open ground??!!? Plasma Cannon Sentinels and Leman Russ' now Get Hot.

Ovion wrote:I do infact have the rulebook.
Had it since last wednesday.

Infact, I fail to see how my comment leads you to think I don't.
I pointed out that Ravagers still have aerial assault, then went on a minirant at how the razorwing/voidraven lose it + how the spacemarines somehow get a tougher, better armed, more accurate jet that can behave as a skimmer as well, for less points.

Because it appeared as though you were worried that our flyer was unable to shoot as well as it did before. It does better than before, but as you pointed out, is no better in terms of speed+accuracy than, say... Space Marines. For some reason. Who are in fact better. For no discernable reason.

As you said, separate matter.

As far as other things:
I think the Duke in a Raider with 9 warriors might be neat. Give the Raider Splinter Racks and now that Raider can move and fire 12" and fire 24" with rerolls on your BS1.
...
Or I could just get a venom and move the same speed for less cost, more shots, and better accuracy. GOD why didn't they change the wording on Splinter Racks?

The Baron actually deploying WITH Hellions would be all right. S4 hits on the charge (S5 with the right drugs or FA, S6 with both) at I10, then the rest of the attacks. All of that following 2 Poison shots per model during the shooting phase. So about 5 MEqs that turn. Of course, you'll just be rapid fired to death afterwards, same as now...

Reavers are a bit better with the impact hits if they charge (worse due to snapfire) better with the change to mixed T values, blade vanes are better vs GEqs. Reavers are better against normal shooting (jink) but nerfed when going flat out.

Other eldar Jetbikes got a nice boost to their flat out move, and Seercouncils especially will need S8+ to instakill them. They took a nerf to their jink save, but can move faster. The Impact attacks will make Seer Councils quite rough, though significantly less so now that Witchblades are no longer S9 against vehicles. Just ASSAULTING a LR with Jetbikes could have cause a destroyed result before blows were even struck. That's power. Still, I expect the reasons to NOT take JBSC are much weaker than before.

Dark Lances got better with Hullpoints and Poison got better too, since more people will be on the field after their cans go.

WWP lists may not even exist. In 5e they were something people would kick around to shake things up or to discuss the viability of. They could be competitive depending on your meta. Now they may as well have removed them from the book (like they did with Target Locks on Tau. Yeah, thanks for that...) Without the ability to assault from them, they serve no purpose that you couldn't have had by starting on the board to start with. Even footslogging Darklances can move and snapfire.

Wyches. Oof, where to start? PW only hurt marines, but don't negate their FNP. Nerf. (Okay, so I never charged many Termies anyway, but that's not the point. Now it isn't even an option) FNP got changed so that PW do not negate it. Buff. Only ID negates it. No change: the number of models that had S6 but weren't PW is very small. The number of AP1-2 ranged weapons that were S5 or less is even smaller. The ID change to FNP is a buff to Marines and no one else, pure and simple. Snapfire being used as a charge reaction: Nerf. Multiple charges allowing no bonus charge attack and snapfire from both units getting charged: Nerf and Nerf. Random Charge range: Nerf. Fleet of foot: Nerf (No running and charging, GW? Really?) Assault from open topped vehicles: Not sure if this is a nerf or a buff. Entirely possible that the additional deployment distance from a vehicle plus the random assault range is actually an overall buff to assault range, if not assault power. Will reserve judgement until I know for sure. Changes to assaulting vehicles, vehicle rules, and hullpoints improving Haywire grenades: BIIIG buff! However, there are likely FAR more cost effective ways to pop the fewer vehicles we are likely to see on the field than sending Wyches at them. The afore mentioned WWP/assault situation? Nerf.
Overall: Wyches nerfed hard.

Grotesques: Wow. Buffed a bit, actually. FNP is there unless you railgun them. Snapfire affects them quite a bit less due to their high toughness. They are more likely to lose their armor save in CC due to their 6+ save, so that's a nerf. FNP is only 5+, so slight nerf, but still a gain as mentioned before.

Incubi: Nerfed for the same reasons as Wyches, insultingly so due to their having a 3+save. When PW worked against all armor, it was no big deal, but against 3+ only, that's just mean. :laughs: However: the once rarely taken Klaivex gets a substantial lease on life as he is our ONLY access to AP2 CCW! YAY! And at S5 base! YAY! AND at Initiative! Holy crap! So, the unit itself takes a poke due to the CC rules mentioned in the Wych section, but gets buffed by their unit commander gaining the ability to issue challenges, and being rather deadly to his foes when he does. Overall: Buff. It'll take more points to get what you need out of it, but you'll likely save those points from not taking an Archon.

Haemonculus: Minor nerf. FNP. Nuff said. (S)He won't be an auto include with Wyches anymore, as Wyches are unlikely to be taken as much. Since there are no other real benefits for these guys apart from the needed HQ slot, expect a single Haemi taken with fun wargear just for support, to save points elsewhere.

Succubus: Seriously?

Archon: The Clonefield is a better piece of kit to take now, though the Shadowfield is still probably the better deal. Husk Blade may be better due to Challenge, but is worse due to PW nerf.

Razorwing: It's a flyer. It'll be fine. With the vehicle nerf, we wont NEED to take 23+ lances, so the Razorwing won't lose us anything by taking it over a Ravager, and the increased survivability will keep 2 lances on the board after your Ravagers have been destroyed.

The Dias of Destruction: Still a vehicle. Still overcosted. Still has all of the pitfalls of being a vehicle with none of the advantages of being a Raider.

Trueborn and Warrior squads appear the same as before. Where once you could be competitive with suboptimal builds (taking archons, Incubi, Wyches, large warrior squads instead of 5 man warriors in a venom x6) you now seem to be shoehorned into taking only those competitive options. Nearly 50% of the book is CC options, and the vast, unrelenting majority of those are terrible. The gap between what was good and what was bad has increased, removing all middle of the ground, really. I'm upset more for my loss of options than I am the total loss of my book. I can say "Well, at least I can fall back on that," but damn. That's still a hell of a loss.


One last thing: Tau Target Locks.

Really GW? REALLY?!? I kind of understand WWP. You want assaults to NEVER come from reserve EVER. I get it. Okay. At least it's consistant. But then you take away Target Locks. So now Tau can't split fire, but SW still can? You are really effing serious about this? Oh, and also, you screwed up the DE FAQ. Under TGL on the first page you said "Change 'Morale check' to 'Leadership Check.'" Then on pg3 you said "Change this to read "morale check..."" Yeah. Great work.

What does stealth do now? My friend tried to explain.it earlier over the phone but it wasn't clear.

mercury14 wrote:

Shadowseer_Kim wrote:The Shadowseer Veil of Tears change means Harlequins will get shot at a lot more. No longer does it provide a better night fighting roll, but a much improved cover save. I foresee my Harlequins getting hit with more fire that ignores cover early.

Read the FAQ regarding what sentences the new rules replace and you'll see that the old Veil is still there along with the new powers

Couldnt quite believe this when I read it, had to go running back to my codex and check the sentences refered to; then check it again; then having a little lie down in a darkened room and coming back to check it again I assumed when I first read the FAQ that the old mechanic was being replaced by the new stealth/shrouded rules, but it does indeed augment it - cant be shot intentionally more than 24" away, 3-point better cover save when actually in range...cool. Most cool.

Mr. Self Destruct wrote:Necrons got a huge buff IMO.

Gauss weapons are now insanely good at glancing vehicles to death.
Warscythes are AP 1 and gain +2 on the Damage table.
The Haywire gun is now useful as well.
The Night Scythe doesn't actually count as having its transport unit inside it, so if it crashes the unit it's transporting takes no S10 hits.
Mindshackle scarabs + challenges = good.

The haywire gun is strait up broke almost. I don't believe any gun has a good of chance as wrecking vehicles now, the only saving grace is its short range.

Incubus: Elite slot however, I'd rather take another blasterborn or the buffed harlequins(If we can use the Eldar FAQ :( ) than an assault unit that is, quite honestly, overpriced for what it can do now. Personally, I'd consider it a slight-nerf.

Nagashek wrote: Assault from open topped vehicles: Not sure if this is a nerf or a buff. Entirely possible that the additional deployment distance from a vehicle plus the random assault range is actually an overall buff to assault range

Assault from open-topped was available in 5th ed, and here's the number provided by other DE players...

5th ed: 12"(raider cruising speed) + 2"(disembark distance) + D6"(run) + 6"(assault) = 21" - 26"

6th ed: 6"(raider) + 6" (disembark) + 2D6"(assault) = 14" - 24"

Both the chance to fail, and the overall distance got nerfed. And then you can add being shot at from overwatch to the equation to properly stress how these all nerfed wyches hard. On the other hand, HWG on vehicles! But I'd personally rather bring another DL or 2 in that slot.

Also, you forgot beastmaster: 12" move, 2D6" assault(no fleet), ignore terrain(still takes the I1 penalty if not attached to Baron). Slight buff, they can now move at the same speed as Baron.

Baronyu wrote:Incubus: Elite slot however, I'd rather take another blasterborn or the buffed harlequins(If we can use the Eldar FAQ :( ) than an assault unit that is, quite honestly, overpriced for what it can do now. Personally, I'd consider it a slight-nerf.

Nagashek wrote: Assault from open topped vehicles: Not sure if this is a nerf or a buff. Entirely possible that the additional deployment distance from a vehicle plus the random assault range is actually an overall buff to assault range

Assault from open-topped was available in 5th ed, and here's the number provided by other DE players...

5th ed: 12"(raider cruising speed) + 2"(disembark distance) + D6"(run) + 6"(assault) = 21" - 26"

6th ed: 6"(raider) + 6" (disembark) + 2D6"(assault) = 14" - 24"

:wince:

Also, you forgot beastmaster: 12" move, 2D6" assault(no fleet), ignore terrain(still takes the I1 penalty if not attached to Baron). Slight buff, they can now move at the same speed as Baron.

I didn't forget, I just never used them, or even theoried them that much, so I didn't feel qualified enough to comment. Same with the Court, but I expect that it hasn't changed anything towards the better.

Well, most of us are still on the "theory" stage on 6th ed anyway, I don't see why not? I've never used incubi either, couldn't see a reason to, and even less so with 6th ed changes...

I've always liked the beastmaster unit, so I was so glad that beast unit got buffed. 4+ cover save being less common does hurt, but I could live with that, may be.

I forgot to add something to the list of Wych nerfs: Hypex is the first drug rolled on the chart. It allows you to roll 3d6 when making Run moves and pick the highest result. Now that you can not Run and Charge with Fleet, this makes certain that the Consolation Prize of the Combat Drugs list is now the rock in the bottom of Charlie Brown's candy bag. Alas! If only it was even that useful! That rock could be used as a weapon. This rock means you can... get away from combat faster. Or chase someone down who... I guess... wouldn't just shoot you to death instead.

phantommaster wrote:My Skulltaker on a Chariot just got stupidly good. 2+ save, still got 5 attacks and 4 wounds and moves like a vehicle.

Triarch Praetorians got a massive buff, so did all Necron Warrior armies.

Blood Angels got lots of new fun things, plus Vanguard being able to charge 12" after deep strike.

Space Wolves are now easily the most OP army for me, they keep all the silly Runic Weapons, Long Fangs got even more better and Mark of the Wulfen is rending so thats AP2 in combat. Frost Axes are now +2 strength but I1. Thunderwolves still have Fleet but move 12" so they're even faster.

Tau got quite a buff for Fire Warriors but Crisis Suits got nerfed I believe.

GK are still pretty good. Force Weapons are special which is nice and Blind Grenades giving an automatic 6+ cover isn't fantastic but helpful.

Sniper Vets are great, allocating wounds, Snare Mines give a basic 6+ cover, which Camo Cloaks boost to 5+, and thats just in open ground??!!? Plasma Cannon Sentinels and Leman Russ' now Get Hot.

,

I really hate to break it to you man... Deamon chariots.... are not... chariots!!! its a vehicle type and the deamon ones are not vehicles... stupid aint it

Exergy wrote:DE WWP, cannot assault out of the portal, makes the list useless

IMO it reversed it because rapid fire weapons aren't hands-down inferior anymore. Instead of dumping assault units out of the portals, dump big blocks of warriors into rapid-fire range. Infantry got a lot more valuable IMO.


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Kaldor wrote:

Buttons wrote:Sounds like Plasma vets are much better now. They may be expensive, but 3 str 6 and 3 str 7 shots on the move in an AV 12 platform is terrifying to everything. Plus you can now fire 6 str 7, 3 str 6, 3 str 5, 3 str 4, and 4 str 3 shots if it doesn't move and you add a heavy stubber. Gets even worse when your army includes 4-6 squads of plasma vets, possibly with storm troopers tossed in.

Yep. Everyone is moaning that hull points make vehicles too fragile, but facing off against multiple Chimera mounted Veteran squads is going to be a nightmare. Gone are the days of just glancing them, and then ignoring them for the rest of the turn.

Honestly, I like this system much better.


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Deadshot wrote:Draigowing got a major hit. Their prefered tactic was to load a Libby and Pallies in a Raven and zoom them on, and keep everything in reserve to avoid shooting. Now at least 50% must start onboard. Not only that but wound Allocation has gone down the drain and everyone has a save against their powers. I don't even know what has happened to their Force Weapons yet.

Actually, Paladins are listed as infantry characters, meaning each of them get's a 4+ Look Out Sir roll which, if passed, allows them to place the wound on any model they choose within 6".

Wound allocation isn't the same, but it's still there. Better in some aspects, worse in others.

I like the new system much better too. Especially for vehicles. Glances are less dangerous in ones and twos if you don't follow up and finish the vehicle off, but can reliably wreck vehicles when you do. It makes individual vehicles less durable, but makes them overall more reliable if you field vehicles in number.

As for wound allocation, if you're in an area where gimmick characters are common, snipers will become likewise common to counter them. Makes lynch pin armies like Draigowing more risky, which is how it should be seeing as how Draigowing and the like are no fun to play against for some armies/players.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Mr. Self Destruct wrote:Necrons got a huge buff IMO.

Gauss weapons are now insanely good at glancing vehicles to death.
Warscythes are AP 1 and gain +2 on the Damage table.
The Haywire gun is now useful as well.
The Night Scythe doesn't actually count as having its transport unit inside it, so if it crashes the unit it's transporting takes no S10 hits.
Mindshackle scarabs + challenges = good.

Nightscythe doesn't have hover, and Invasion beam doesn't say anything about letting units embark so the vehicle is for dropping off only. I found that to be interesting. So if you want to transport a unit of necrons that have already been deployed across the able quickly, you need a monolith already in position.

Also, I find it to be an interesting limitation that the Deathscythe can't fire the death ray the round after it evades.

All in all, I think the DE have better flyers hands down, but necron flyers can still pile on the hurt.

Nagashek wrote:One last thing: Tau Target Locks.

Really GW? REALLY?!? I kind of understand WWP. You want assaults to NEVER come from reserve EVER. I get it. Okay. At least it's consistant. But then you take away Target Locks. So now Tau can't split fire, but SW still can? You are really effing serious about this? Oh, and also, you screwed up the DE FAQ. Under TGL on the first page you said "Change 'Morale check' to 'Leadership Check.'" Then on pg3 you said "Change this to read "morale check..."" Yeah. Great work.

Yes it sucks that we no longer have Target Locks, so you don't field as much Death Rains but more Fire Knives. Since you don't need to roll results for glances anymore, our Plasma can hurt Light Armor yes it is a 1/6 chance against Armor 12 but that is still a chance to do it. and we get 2 points to spend somewhere else for picking up a Blacksun Filter instead of the Target Locks. All that means for Tau is a little change in tactics.

Also look at the FAQ on the WWP- Ongoing Reserves can come from the WWP!

Arandmoor wrote:

Exergy wrote:DE WWP, cannot assault out of the portal, makes the list useless

IMO it reversed it because rapid fire weapons aren't hands-down inferior anymore. Instead of dumping assault units out of the portals, dump big blocks of warriors into rapid-fire range. Infantry got a lot more valuable IMO.

The no-more-than-50%-of-the-army-in-reserve + no assaulting out of reserve is rather harsh.
The ability to bring bikes / hellions out of it is really it's only particular saving grace, but even then - it's still killed what pretty much everyone used it for so far.

Death Guard have gotten much better with their FnP no longer negated with AP 2 and 1 weapons. Yea it's a 5 now, but it can keep us in the fight against things that would normaly get rid of it. Typhus has been made better as well. The changes to about FnP, ID and power weapons has made him a brick wall in combat. Granted you still have to be careful what you fight. You still don't want to loose that 2+.

The best part? Daemon Allies, you take Epidemius as an ally and keep him alive, you can eventually have plague marines that would on a 2 with no armor saves(close combat and shooting, it was FAQ'd) and a 3+ FnP. Congratulations, people will bitch about Chaos again, but not about dual Lash. Im not surprised if it's GK players that want to keep Allies out. They get no sympathy from me if they decided to be WAAC and now want to fix it so that any chance of the weaker armies getting their weakeness fixed is out and they feel less threatened. God forbid they get a taste of their own medicine and learn what it's like to be on the recieving end of such nonsense.

That's not to say Epid with Death Guard is broken, but I've already hear GK players trying to ban allies.

Hashulaman wrote:Death Guard have gotten much better with their FnP no longer negated with AP 2 and 1 weapons. Yea it's a 5 now, but it can keep us in the fight against things that would normaly get rid of it. Typhus has been made better as well. The changes to about FnP, ID and power weapons has made him a brick wall in combat. Granted you still have to be careful what you fight. You still don't want to loose that 2+.

The best part? Daemon Allies, you take Epidemius as an ally and keep him alive, you can eventually have plague marines that would on a 2 with no armor saves(close combat and shooting, it was FAQ'd) and a 3+ FnP. Congratulations, people will bitch about Chaos again, but not about dual Lash. Im not surprised if it's GK players that want to keep Allies out. They get no sympathy from me if they decided to be WAAC and now want to fix it so that any chance of the weaker armies getting their weakeness fixed is out and they feel less threatened. God forbid they get a taste of their own medicine and learn what it's like to be on the recieving end of such nonsense.

That's not to say Epid with Death Guard is broken, but I've already hear GK players trying to ban allies.

It's only a matter of time before the WAAC GK players figure out they can ally with IG.

Just noticed that Kharn now strikes at I1 since Gorechild is a Power Axe, as well a Typhus' weapon being a Force Axe.

McNinja wrote:Just noticed that Kharn now strikes at I1 since Gorechild is a Power Axe, as well a Typhus' weapon being a Force Axe.

typhus has a FW and its an Axe, best of both worlds

Deathwing went through the roof with power swords going to AP3, mauls at AP 4, and axes going at the same time as hammers. Also, anything with access to haywire is ridiculously good at killing vehicles.

Nagashek wrote:I forgot to add something to the list of Wych nerfs: Hypex is the first drug rolled on the chart. It allows you to roll 3d6 when making Run moves and pick the highest result. Now that you can not Run and Charge with Fleet, this makes certain that the Consolation Prize of the Combat Drugs list is now the rock in the bottom of Charlie Brown's candy bag. Alas! If only it was even that useful! That rock could be used as a weapon. This rock means you can... get away from combat faster. Or chase someone down who... I guess... wouldn't just shoot you to death instead.

it was already pretty bad. Bikes cannot run and bikes have combat drugs.

Just played first game with new rules, was 6 of us, so we each had 1k points and played a 3k per side. Need to play a few more games before I make decisions on whats nerfed or buffed.

But first impressions are skimmers have a little more survivabilty now with the cover save just for moving.

Vehicles overall might be more vulnerable, but I want to do more games to see this. But might see more balanced armies instead of Mech armies, will have to see after more games.

Flyers are def going to be interesting, but need to do more games. All I know is my DoomScythe has a bit more survivabilty now. Though in this game, I was up against our Imp Guards Vendettas, I took one out, then his second took me out.

Jump troops are interesting with the Hammer of Wrath rule, as long as they didnt use their jump movement before the charge. Guys usually lost one troop from it, so its something.

Overwatch was fun, usually got a kill or two out of it.

Some other stuff, but will be interesting to see the changes of folks armies in upcoming tourneys and such.

Hashulaman wrote:The best part? Daemon Allies, you take Epidemius as an ally and keep him alive, you can eventually have plague marines that would on a 2 with no armor saves(close combat and shooting, it was FAQ'd) and a 3+ FnP. Congratulations, people will bitch about Chaos again, but not about dual Lash.

This is awesome, I was wondering why I hadn't heard people playing doubles with EPI and plague marines in 5th I would have thought it would work. But it being official and in one force is just amazing I can see this being a very fun army to play and FLUFFY too!

I don't understand why GW removed the assaulting out of the WWP. It's not like that's even a real competitive option. Way to invalidate an entire play style and further make pain engines a complete joke. It baffles me why they'd do this, and I hope they change their mind. Wouldn't want beast packs killing the spess mehreens out of a portal though, would we?

DE CC is pretty nerfed. Wyches especially, at least as a real CC unit. Agonizer AP 3 is weak; I actually did use my Wyches against terminators, and they were reasonably decent against them, now they're garbage. Charge distance slightly nerfed and more random = not great. Overwatch kills them though. You only ever take 9 max, and overwatch shots are likely to kill 2-3 depending on what you're fighting before you even start. This is huge. The only way Wyches can be competitively used now is in 5 in a Venom throwing haywires. Pretty sad.

Other than that, some units were a little nerfed or a little buffed. Still feel really bad for any DE player who had a WWP army. $400-500 worth of stuff invalidated.

I've said it before, but they could have fixed it by simply allowing you to assault out of the webway. I mean, that's not too much to ask is it!

It's also specifically what the webway portals are for but nevermind that...

They also randomly removed Target Lock for no reason, and I don't know what random crap happened in the other faqs.

StarHunter25 wrote:Crisis suits got nerfed hard, as target locks no longer do anything... biggest nerf ever.
Also, psychic hoods are no longer as powerful (6" range, 5+ (regular)/4+(epistolary)) defy the witch... while space wolves still have their happy happy 4+ 24" range magic runic weapons.... dumb

True, but all Psykers got nerfed a little because they can no longer choose their powers. They have to roll for them. So you won't see SW players spamming RP's since they won't be able to choose Jaws and LL all the time. The Rune Priest is still good with top notch psychic defense, but their offensive powers are no longer reliable.

Since I'm talking about space wolves in 6th, here are some other things that have changed.

Acute Senses : Is now useless for all Space Wolves except Wolf Scouts (the only unit in the codex that has "outflank"). So with the 6th Ed Acute senses, you can more or less guarantee that Wolf Scouts come in from reserves any where the SW player wants (3+ with re-roll for "Behind Enemy Lines"). But SW's are no longer any better than anyone else at night fighting. But actually, I view this as more of a minor buff to Necrons than a nerf to SW's. In 5th Edition, it was very rare to have night fighting happen beyond turn 1. And on turn 1, the two armies were usually too far away for the "acute senses night fighting re-roll" to make a difference anyway. For me it only really mattered against Necrons when they used the Veil of Darkness to extend Night beyond Turn 1.

Preferred Enemy : Now allows you to re-roll any 'To Hit' AND 'To Wound' rolls of 1 in BOTH shooting AND close combat. So I expect SW's to make more use of Wolf Priests which confer Preferred Enemy to any unit they join. Expect to see Long Fangs armed with ML's and LC's joined by Wolf Priests and "Vehicles" or "Monstrous Creatures" for Preferred enemy. Also Long Fangs with Plasma Cannons or GH's with plasmaguns joined by Wolf Priests giving them the ability to re-roll those 'Gets' Hot'.

Challenges: I haven't read the rules for challenges in close combat very closely, but I did notice that characters CAN issue challenges to other characters. Once the challenge is issued, the challenged character can only attack the challenger (if the challenge is accepted) or cannot attack at all (if the challenge is refused). Since the space wolves have access to lots and lots of independent characters - many are good in close combat. I think this could be an advantage for SW's. On the other hand, it could also be a disadvantage, since some of those characters are too valuable to be in CC anyway. We'll have to see how this plays out.

I just don't understand the allies table at all, at least from a fluff perspective. It's far too leniant, and it's clear that GW just wanted to make sure as many people could ally with other people as possible to ensure more people buying more models (except tyranids, but we all know that GW hates them). I mean seriously, orks are allies of conveniance with Tau?! The Tau hate the orks with a burning passion, and the orks aren't exactly fans of them either. And Black Templars, one of the most xenophopic chapters ever, can be allies of conveniance with eldar?! I'm fine with fluffy match-ups like chaos daemons with chaos space marines, or even match-ups that aren't neccessarily fluffy at all, but at least don't contradict it. But templars with eldar?! Orks with Tau?! And they aren't even desperate allies!!

greg0985 wrote:
]At first when i saw that power swords are just AP3 and dont have that rumored "parry" special rule, i felt nothing but the proverbial RAAAAGGGGEEEE of Khorne (especially since i just finished painting 60 g*d* bloodletters and a dozen blood crushers).

All Demons have a 5+ invulnerable save now so you don't need the 5+ parry save for your BloodLetters and Blood Crushers. Also...They cause fear now, so your opponents better hope that they are space marines.

one thing i did notice was night vision now IGNORES night fight rules! so DE facing off against a necron pulse/imotekh list just laugh at the useless waste of at least 110 pts.

i think WWP can still work, as mentioned by bringing out warriors with rapid fires. maybe to take out or take over that enemy fortification.

also WTF is with eldar and dark eldar being battle brothers??? i thought they pretty much hated each other? ...definitily thinking of adding a seer council to my DE list... guide, fortune and doom for warrior / trueborn squads? tyvm!

loota boy wrote:I just don't understand the allies table at all, at least from a fluff perspective. It's far too leniant, and it's clear that GW just wanted to make sure as many people could ally with other people as possible to ensure more people buying more models (except tyranids, but we all know that GW hates them). I mean seriously, orks are allies of conveniance with Tau?! The Tau hate the orks with a burning passion, and the orks aren't exactly fans of them either. And Black Templars, one of the most xenophopic chapters ever, can be allies of conveniance with eldar?! I'm fine with fluffy match-ups like chaos daemons with chaos space marines, or even match-ups that aren't neccessarily fluffy at all, but at least don't contradict it. But templars with eldar?! Orks with Tau?! And they aren't even desperate allies!!

I agree. It's lame. GW is just trying to sell more models. But quite frankly, I think that you'll find that except for a few combinations, 'Allies' lists will not be as effective as everyone is making it out to be. Your army will work better if you get everything from one codex.

For example, I can't see any reason why I (as a space wolf) would ever take allies. Maybe to get a flyer? But then I'd have to buy a crappy HQ and a crappy troop choice first. I'd rather just roll with more space wolves. Same with GK. They don't need to take allies.

The only 'Allies' list I see right now as being effective are, Chaos SM + Demons (Naturally). You could say, Tau + SM, but then why not just take a whole army of Space Marines? Allies are for suckers. It's just GW trying to get people to invest in a second (third or fourth) army. Don't throw your $ away.


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DarthSpader wrote:
definitily thinking of adding a seer council to my DE list... guide, fortune and doom for warrior / trueborn squads? tyvm!

Except you don't get to pick Guide, Fortune and Doom. You have to roll for your powers and *hope* you get the ones you want.


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StarHunter25 wrote:Crisis suits got nerfed hard, as target locks no longer do anything... biggest nerf ever.
Also, psychic hoods are no longer as powerful (6" range, 5+ (regular)/4+(epistolary)) defy the witch... while space wolves still have their happy happy 4+ 24" range magic runic weapons.... dumb

Solution to this problem: Instead of taking a SM librarian, instead take SW for allies. A Rune Priest HQ and a unit of Grey Hunters for troops to hide your Rune Priest in. Now you too can have bad ass psychic Defense.

Tinsil wrote:I don't understand why GW removed the assaulting out of the WWP. It's not like that's even a real competitive option. Way to invalidate an entire play style and further make pain engines a complete joke. It baffles me why they'd do this, and I hope they change their mind. Wouldn't want beast packs killing the spess mehreens out of a portal though, would we?

DE CC is pretty nerfed. Wyches especially, at least as a real CC unit. Agonizer AP 3 is weak; I actually did use my Wyches against terminators, and they were reasonably decent against them, now they're garbage. Charge distance slightly nerfed and more random = not great. Overwatch kills them though. You only ever take 9 max, and overwatch shots are likely to kill 2-3 depending on what you're fighting before you even start. This is huge. The only way Wyches can be competitively used now is in 5 in a Venom throwing haywires. Pretty sad.

Other than that, some units were a little nerfed or a little buffed. Still feel really bad for any DE player who had a WWP army. $400-500 worth of stuff invalidated.

seems like a slight overreaction. The play style isnt completely invalid. The WWP still exists, they did not remove it from the game. So, you cant assault the first turn as you come in from WWP, that doesnt mean units that come in through WWP can never assault ever again, just the 1st turn. It'll be as if deep striking. Deep strike is valid. Yes, I agree it's nerfed, but not invalid.

Ovion wrote:I've said it before, but they could have fixed it by simply allowing you to assault out of the webway. I mean, that's not too much to ask is it!

It's also specifically what the webway portals are for but nevermind that...

They also randomly removed Target Lock for no reason, and I don't know what random crap happened in the other faqs.

Reavers using their Bladevanes/Caltrops just got better. Flat Out 36" straight over everything.

Grugknuckle wrote:
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DarthSpader wrote:
definitily thinking of adding a seer council to my DE list... guide, fortune and doom for warrior / trueborn squads? tyvm!

Except you don't get to pick Guide, Fortune and Doom. You have to roll for your powers and *hope* you get the ones you want.

except you can. you can either pick random powers OR just use the powers you had from the start

Phragonist wrote:

Tinsil wrote:I don't understand why GW removed the assaulting out of the WWP. It's not like that's even a real competitive option. Way to invalidate an entire play style and further make pain engines a complete joke. It baffles me why they'd do this, and I hope they change their mind. Wouldn't want beast packs killing the spess mehreens out of a portal though, would we?

DE CC is pretty nerfed. Wyches especially, at least as a real CC unit. Agonizer AP 3 is weak; I actually did use my Wyches against terminators, and they were reasonably decent against them, now they're garbage. Charge distance slightly nerfed and more random = not great. Overwatch kills them though. You only ever take 9 max, and overwatch shots are likely to kill 2-3 depending on what you're fighting before you even start. This is huge. The only way Wyches can be competitively used now is in 5 in a Venom throwing haywires. Pretty sad.

Other than that, some units were a little nerfed or a little buffed. Still feel really bad for any DE player who had a WWP army. $400-500 worth of stuff invalidated.

seems like a slight overreaction. The play style isnt completely invalid. The WWP still exists, they did not remove it from the game. So, you cant assault the first turn as you come in from WWP, that doesnt mean units that come in through WWP can never assault ever again, just the 1st turn. It'll be as if deep striking. Deep strike is valid. Yes, I agree it's nerfed, but not invalid.

What you're forgetting is that the entire Webway Portal list involved usually 15-20 units, of which around 3 or so wouldn't be reserved, which are generally quite expensive, reasonably tough and slow, OR, reasonably expensive, quite fragile units.
Which was the entire point of the 100+pts worth of portal you have to buy, to get your expensive, fragile, dedicated assault units somewhere before they died. Your Deepstriking models are invaribly a lot harder, and have plenty of shooting to offset it.
So now, when these assaulty units (that you can't put as many of into reserve anyway) get to come out of the webway portal, and stand there for a turn. During that turn they get to be shot, and their targets get to run away. leading them to chasing after their target.

While yes, it's still doable to a degree, and my Grotesques and Wracks can take more of a punch than than other DE units, it's a damn sight harder than before.
Which is something of a kick in the teeth as we've finally got the ability to modify reserves and make it viable.
But you're right - it's just over reacting, not a valid concern about the army of models that cost £10-30 each.

It is a big deal. Those CC units don't shoot well, so when they come on it's a full turn of them getting blasted and doing nothing but staring down the enemy.

The playstyle is pretty much invalid. You could say that the WWP isn't invalid, which is true. The WWP armies from 5th are essentially invalidated, and I feel bad for anyone who had one.


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loota boy wrote:I just don't understand the allies table at all, at least from a fluff perspective. It's far too leniant, and it's clear that GW just wanted to make sure as many people could ally with other people as possible to ensure more people buying more models (except tyranids, but we all know that GW hates them). I mean seriously, orks are allies of conveniance with Tau?! The Tau hate the orks with a burning passion, and the orks aren't exactly fans of them either. And Black Templars, one of the most xenophopic chapters ever, can be allies of conveniance with eldar?! I'm fine with fluffy match-ups like chaos daemons with chaos space marines, or even match-ups that aren't neccessarily fluffy at all, but at least don't contradict it. But templars with eldar?! Orks with Tau?! And they aren't even desperate allies!!

I agree completely. GW picked winners and losers in the allies table. If they weren't going to stick to fluff anyways, may as well have just let everyone ally with each other. I think it needed to be a one way table. Maybe X would be willing to ally Y, but Y might not want to ally X as a detachment. I knew allies was going to be a big imperial lovefest while the xenos hate each other.

I don't really play Dark Eldar, but couldn't you load your wyches and grotesque, which aren't bulky, use a raider to enter the board from a WWP? If you flat-out the raider, it'll give it some protection against the fire it'll inevitably take, plus it'll give you some extra range next turn when you charge. And since open-topped transports are still assault vehicles, it gives some life into an otherwise dead army.

acekevin8412 wrote:I don't really play Dark Eldar, but couldn't you load your wyches and grotesque, which aren't bulky, use a raider to enter the board from a WWP? If you flat-out the raider, it'll give it some protection against the fire it'll inevitably take, plus it'll give you some extra range next turn when you charge. And since open-topped transports are still assault vehicles, it gives some life into an otherwise dead army.

grotesques are bulky and require an IC so you can only fit 4 on a raider. You really want to have 10 in a squad though.
also vehicles cannot come out of a WWP in the 5th codex, only in the 3rd.

Damn.....where does it say that Grotesques are bulky? The FAQ? I must have missed it.

Too bad about WWP armies then.

Tinsil wrote:

loota boy wrote:I just don't understand the allies table at all, at least from a fluff perspective. It's far too leniant, and it's clear that GW just wanted to make sure as many people could ally with other people as possible to ensure more people buying more models (except tyranids, but we all know that GW hates them). I mean seriously, orks are allies of conveniance with Tau?! The Tau hate the orks with a burning passion, and the orks aren't exactly fans of them either. And Black Templars, one of the most xenophopic chapters ever, can be allies of conveniance with eldar?! I'm fine with fluffy match-ups like chaos daemons with chaos space marines, or even match-ups that aren't neccessarily fluffy at all, but at least don't contradict it. But templars with eldar?! Orks with Tau?! And they aren't even desperate allies!!

I agree completely. GW picked winners and losers in the allies table. If they weren't going to stick to fluff anyways, may as well have just let everyone ally with each other. I think it needed to be a one way table. Maybe X would be willing to ally Y, but Y might not want to ally X as a detachment. I knew allies was going to be a big imperial lovefest while the xenos hate each other.

the ally table sucks. Some armies are clear winners and most of them are Imperium of Man units. Chaos aren't battle brothers with Traitor Guard? Nids cant even take a genestealer cult as a desprete ally?


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acekevin8412 wrote:Damn.....where does it say that Grotesques are bulky? The FAQ? I must have missed it.

Too bad about WWP armies then.

in the 5th codex

@GrugKnuckle. Psyckers can still choose powers, as far as I can tell from reading the rulebook, and FAQ. The only time it is random is when you choose to take the random powers instead.

Eldrad as an example, you can choose to use the powers he has that you know and love, or you can instead take 4 from the spell book/list thingy, which will be random.

I will be reading through the rules again soon and figuring it all our for sure.

acekevin8412 wrote:Damn.....where does it say that Grotesques are bulky? The FAQ? I must have missed it.

Too bad about WWP armies then.

Yeah, It's right there in their unit entry. Bulky, meaning max 4 in a raider.
3-4 Grotesques out of a raider with a haem isn't what people expect, and they tend to do alright, but 10 out of a webway was fairly rape-face ( 40-50 Str6 attacks on the charge, 3 wounds each and T5 all for 350-400pts.)

StarHunter25 wrote:
Acute Senses : Is now useless for all Space Wolves except Wolf Scouts (the only unit in the codex that has "outflank"). So with the 6th Ed Acute senses, you can more or less guarantee that Wolf Scouts come in from reserves any where the SW player wants (3+ with re-roll for "Behind Enemy Lines"). But SW's are no longer any better than anyone else at night fighting. But actually, I view this as more of a minor buff to Necrons than a nerf to SW's. In 5th Edition, it was very rare to have night fighting happen beyond turn 1. And on turn 1, the two armies were usually too far away for the "acute senses night fighting re-roll" to make a difference anyway. For me it only really mattered against Necrons when they used the Veil of Darkness to extend Night beyond Turn 1.

Essentially the same applies to Tau

Tinsil wrote:It is a big deal. Those CC units don't shoot well, so when they come on it's a full turn of them getting blasted and doing nothing but staring down the enemy.

The playstyle is pretty much invalid. You could say that the WWP isn't invalid, which is true. The WWP armies from 5th are essentially invalidated, and I feel bad for anyone who had one.

What they did was prevent huge tarpit units from poping out of a WWP and giving the DE's opponent no option/recourse except to get charged. Now they get a chance to respond before you tarpit/wreck them. I feel so sad for you (no I don't).

Now, as far as the WWP goes, it's still useful. You just can't invalidate an enemy gunline without working for it a bit. I mean, it just stops you from assaulting the first turn you come out. It doesn't stop you from doing other things...like shooting the newly buffed rapid fire splinter rifles you get from a big block of warriors and putting some serious hurt on an enemy unit. And the WWP still gives DE some serious advantages for strategically countering enemy position on objectives. And it's not like you couldn't put your witches and incubui into transports or something and playing them like everyone else has to play their melee.

You can't play your army the exact same way you did before the update. Welcome to a new edition of every game ever published.

Arandmoor wrote:

Tinsil wrote:It is a big deal. Those CC units don't shoot well, so when they come on it's a full turn of them getting blasted and doing nothing but staring down the enemy.

The playstyle is pretty much invalid. You could say that the WWP isn't invalid, which is true. The WWP armies from 5th are essentially invalidated, and I feel bad for anyone who had one.

What they did was prevent huge tarpit units from poping out of a WWP and giving the DE's opponent no option/recourse except to get charged. Now they get a chance to respond before you tarpit/wreck them. I feel so sad for you (no I don't).

Now, as far as the WWP goes, it's still useful. You just can't invalidate an enemy gunline without working for it a bit. I mean, it just stops you from assaulting the first turn you come out. It doesn't stop you from doing other things...like shooting the newly buffed rapid fire splinter rifles you get from a big block of warriors and putting some serious hurt on an enemy unit. And the WWP still gives DE some serious advantages for strategically countering enemy position on objectives. And it's not like you couldn't put your witches and incubui into transports or something and playing them like everyone else has to play their melee.

You can't play your army the exact same way you did before the update. Welcome to a new edition of every game ever published.

Except that WWPs were practically the ONLY way to get certain slower units into the fray outside of footslogging. That's the point of webway portals: to bypass that whole "getting shot" thing and put you right on the enemy's doorstep. DE infantry is NOT good at shooting, nor are they good at staying alive. Warriors popping out will get facerolled (and then charged, if close enough and the opponent rolls high enough) in the opponents turn. Their armor saves are 5+, and you know what shooting weapon negates that? Every single basic rifle. Incubi are slightly better, but can't shoot unless upgraded, and even then they die quicker than Pain Engines due to lower toughness. That's besides the fact that they are now 90% worthless against Terminators without either Drazhar or a Klaivex w/ the Clasped Demiklaive.

The Pain Engine and Parasite Engine are still Monstrous Creatures, still can't be transported, and still die rather easily to massed fire, only now they are required to face it because if they come out of a webway portal, they can't assault. The only DE units that come out unscathed are Reaver Jetbikes, which became insanely fast this edition. 12" move +36" Flat Out"+2d6" move in the assault phase. They can move almost 60" in a single turn, and because they can do damage without either assaulting or shooting (and in fact they cannot shoot if they Flat Out, which is required to use Bladevanes/Cluster Caltrops), it makes them even better.

Also, in an unrelated note, it has now been confirmed in the fluff that the Tyranids Hive Fleets are splinters of a far more massive fleet that is still stretched across the intergalactic void. Sorry, but I think that tops Chaos in terms of "we're boned." We've been holding Chaos off for millennia, but Tyranids? The Emperor can't hold them off, and is the reason they are here.