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Post by: Kaldor
Page 23, first column, half way down (Initiative Step Pile In)
"If both player's Pile In moves combined would be insufficient to bring any combatants back together (that's more than 6" - very unlikely!), the assault come to an end. All remaining Initiative steps are lost - work out the assault result as described on page 26".
So, let me break it down.
This is during "initiative step pile in" - so only talking about pile in moves made at that Initiative Step.
A squad of 5 Grey Hunters charge an Ork mob. They pile in, and kill the five Orks they are in base combat with at I4.
The Ork nob with big choppa is I3. He is more than 3" away from the nearest Grey Hunter.
Combat immediately ends.
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Post by: Shadelkan
It would imply the ork mob was not in coherency.
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Post by: kmdl1066
I wouldn't call it a glitch, just the way it seems to work now.
If you want to hide model away from the front line so they don't get removed as a casualty before it is that models init step, you take the risk that by the time it is their turn, the model may not be able to get into into a position to attack.
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Post by: Shadelkan
Either way, yea, that's how it is. What's wrong with that exactly?
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Post by: Rukland
Both sides move so even if in this case the Ork is 5 inches away both sides are moving 3 inches. This really is not going to happen too often.
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Post by: Cheex
Rukland wrote:Both sides move so even if in this case the Ork is 5 inches away both sides are moving 3 inches. This really is not going to happen too often.
Both sides move during their own Initiative step only, so if you have just a single model with an 'in-between' Initiative like a Nob sitting at the back of his unit, then it's going to happen a lot.
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Post by: lordofthegophers
Yeah, I have to agree. This is how I have interpreted the rule also, and it's pretty dumb! Let's hope it gets addressed in an FAQ.
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Post by: coredump
The way I see it, that is what happens when the nob gets caught trying to hide behind his boyz...
Let him lead like a real commander :-P
(More seriously, in another thread, it was brought up to hide the nob in the middle to avoid challenges. Now we see one drawback to that.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Lets look at another, stranger, situation:
a brood of stealers charges some marines. Only 2 stealers are able to get into base contact, the Blord is way in the back.
At I7, the BLord moves 3", but is still not engaged; so can't attack.
What happens?
Does combat end only if *no* models are in base contact, or does it end if no models at that Init step can attack?
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Post by: Bookwrack
Only if there are no models in base contact.
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Post by: Blaggard
Grey Knights assault, kill boyz, assault ends. Ork turn, DAKKA DAKKA DAKKA, PK Assault.
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Post by: Lone Dragoon
The rule you're actually missing seems to be on page 23 emphasis mine, If both players' Pile in moves combined would be insufficient to bring any combatants back together....
What your missing is that all models make that pile in move, and if at the end of the initiative step of the lowest Initiative model no pile in moves will reach, then combat ends. For an example we'll use the orks with nob, and marines you used in your example. Initiative step 4 marines pile in and make their attacks, kill 5 orks. Initiative step 3, nob makes his pile in, he is unable to reach the marines thus will not be able to fight. Initiative step 2 (remember, any combatants means the orks are still in the fight) the orks get to make their pile in moves, which can engage the marines meaning combat continues. Automatically Appended Next Post: Here's an example of how the rule would play out in a situation that it would end early.
A lone Archon assaults a unit of Striking scorpions. The striking scorpions are in a conga line formation with 2" separating each model, and the model assaulted is on the end of the line. The archon kills 4 scorpions on the charge, and the four closest models are removed. Now you have 10" between the archon and the nearest model in the unit. Initiative 6 the Exarch makes his pile in of 3", and does not reach the archon. At initiative 5 the scorpions make their pile in movement, and are not able to reach the archon. Combat ends at initiative five, and neither of the units is considered to be engaged in the following turn.
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Post by: Cheex
Lone Dragoon wrote:The rule you're actually missing seems to be on page 23 emphasis mine
Ahh, I see what you're saying. I was about to point out the sentence "All remaining Initiative steps are lost", but that seems to only trigger if no combatant would be able to reach the enemy after a Pile In (at any Initiative step).
Ok, so I agree with that. I think it's still valid to interpret otherwise, but I think this interpretation makes more sense.
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Post by: kmdl1066
Lone Dragoon wrote:The rule you're actually missing seems to be on page 23 emphasis mine, If both players' Pile in moves combined would be insufficient to bring any combatants back together....
What your missing is that all models make that pile in move, and if at the end of the initiative step of the lowest Initiative model no pile in moves will reach, then combat ends. For an example we'll use the orks with nob, and marines you used in your example. Initiative step 4 marines pile in and make their attacks, kill 5 orks. Initiative step 3, nob makes his pile in, he is unable to reach the marines thus will not be able to fight. Initiative step 2 (remember, any combatants means the orks are still in the fight) the orks get to make their pile in moves, which can engage the marines meaning combat continues.
Not quite. All of that is under the heading "Start of Initiative Step Pile In." So at the end of initiative step 3 there are no models in B2B. The assault comes to an end. In the same section you quoted : "All remaining Initiative steps are lost." Automatically Appended Next Post: Cheexsta wrote:but that seems to only trigger if no combatant would be able to reach the enemy after a Pile In (at any Initiative step).
The section it in is very clearly for only one Initiative step. If at the end of any initiative step there are no combatants together, the assault is done.
This may not be what was intended but it is what they wrote. The reference to 6" would seem to imply they meant something different, because you only get a combined 6" when there are models acting in the same initiative step on both sides.
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Post by: Kommissar Kel
Lone dragon: your Emphasis is wrong; but your conclusion is correct.
The emphasis should be on "both players' Pile in moves combined".
If you have not worked through every models' Initiative step-pile ins; then both players' pile in moves have neither been completed, nor combined.
kmdl: Models only pile-in at the beginning of their own Init step; a unit of 5 T-Hammer/SS Termies that lose their only model contacted at I 5 against a unit that only has I5+4 models, but the I4 model(s) are not within 3" of the second Termie down the line have not had "Both Players' pile in moves combined" if you try to end the combat at I4; you must wait until I1.
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Post by: kmdl1066
If you're supposed to work through every model's initiative step pile in, the how could you even have "All remaining Initiative steps are lost."?
The only way you can lose initiative steps is if there is some way the combat can end before every model has had their initiative step. And that happens if at the end of any initiative step there are no models "together."
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Post by: Lone Dragoon
Kommissar Kel wrote:Lone dragon: your Emphasis is wrong; but your conclusion is correct.
The emphasis should be on "both players' Pile in moves combined".
If you have not worked through every models' Initiative step-pile ins; then both players' pile in moves have neither been completed, nor combined.
Actually either quote emphasis works just fine. Are the boyz combatants? Yep, so they fall under the category of any combatant.
kmdl1066, the problem is that it may be under that heading, but it does not state that the end of that specific initiative step. I'll use Kel's correction of my statement (since he was kind enough to provide it  ), did the defending player make all his pile in moves? No he did not, as the boyz did not make their pile in moves so that means that they get to do so, and combat continues.
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Post by: Kommissar Kel
Not the first time GW has had Extraneous, useless verbiage in their rules. 
Wont be the last time either.
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Post by: kmdl1066
Indeed. GW rules and sieve always seem to go together in my mind.
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Post by: Wildcat Carl
Imagine a situation where after the initial charge from death company the orks pile in moves leave some ork in formation but more then 6" away from 7 the death company and chaplain.
Example;
7 orks in B2B, then 13 orks behind within 2" and the other 10 orks are not within 2".
The death company go first at Int 4 killing all 20 ork models in B2B and within 2"
Int step 3, The death company step up 3" and the orks step up 3" noone can make B2B.
Combat ends!
This is my impression of it.
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Post by: Tarkand
coredump wrote:
(More seriously, in another thread, it was brought up to hide the nob in the middle to avoid challenges. Now we see one drawback to that.
I'm not sure it's a drawback.
The orks get to charge with their furious charge next turn now, instead of getting stuck in at S3.
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Post by: kmdl1066
Wildcat Carl wrote:Imagine a situation where after the initial charge from death company the orks pile in moves leave some ork in formation but more then 6" away from 7 the death company and chaplain.
Example;
7 orks in B2B, then 13 orks behind within 2" and the other 10 orks are not within 2".
The death company go first at Int 4 killing all 20 ork models in B2B and within 2"
Int step 3, The death company step up 3" and the orks step up 3" noone can make B2B.
Combat ends!
This is my impression of it.
The DC perform their pile in moves at init 4 before they attack. They don't make a pile in move at init 3. "At the start of each Initiative step any model whose Initiative is equal to the value of the current Initiative step, that isn't already in base contact with an enemy must make a Pile In Move."
At init 3 only the Nob would make a pile in move. The boys are init 2.
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Post by: Cryogen
kmdl1066 wrote:If you're supposed to work through every model's initiative step pile in, the how could you even have "All remaining Initiative steps are lost."?
The only way you can lose initiative steps is if there is some way the combat can end before every model has had their initiative step. And that happens if at the end of any initiative step there are no models "together."
Not true. If both sides are over 6" apart it is now impossible for their pile-in moves to bring them together so the combat would be over and everyone loses their initiative step.
Eg. Space marine squad with pfist serg assaults squad of boyz. Marines kill enough boyz that there is now a 7" gap between the remaining boyz, and any marines. As both player's remaining pile-in moves would be insufficient to bring anyone in to base contact, the combat ends and the boyz & pfist serg lose their initiative steps.
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Post by: Lone Dragoon
kmdl1066 wrote:If you're supposed to work through every model's initiative step pile in, the how could you even have "All remaining Initiative steps are lost."?
The only way you can lose initiative steps is if there is some way the combat can end before every model has had their initiative step. And that happens if at the end of any initiative step there are no models "together."
I showed an example of that, initiative steps 4 through 1 were lost in the archon/striking scorpion example.
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Post by: kmdl1066
And I disagree. At the end of initiative step 6 in your example there are no models in b2b and the assault comes to an end. All remaining initiative steps are lost.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
To explain further why combat has to end immediately when at the end of an initiative step there is no B2B. Lets look at this example.
Marines (I4) with attached Captain (I5) charge orks (I2). The captain is the only one who makes it into contact. Initiative step 5 captain kills a bunch of orks and is not in B2B anymore. Initiative step 4 marines pile in 3" but don't get into B2B. They get no attacks. Initiative step 2 orks pile in and do make it into B2B. They get to attack. THIS IS WRONG!
The assault has to end at initiative step 4 when there are no models eligible to fight and all remaining initiative steps (ie. step 2 for the orks) are lost,
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Post by: Lone Dragoon
Here's something to think about, what we are talking about is only the pile ins. We have to actually reference the rules for the initiative steps, not for pile ins. Read the bolded portion of text from initiative steps. We are told to work through the initiative values of models engaged in combat starting with the highest and ending with the lowest. The models are engaged in combat as soon as a charge is successful, meaning we must work through all the initiative steps. Nothing in the pile in rules contradicts this, so every initiative step must make their pile in movement because we must work through all the initiative steps. If at the end of the final initiative step that we work through (say initiative 5 from the striking scorpion example) there is no way a unit can reach, then we skip the remaining initiative steps.
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Post by: tgf
Blaggard wrote:Grey Knights assault, kill boyz, assault ends. Ork turn, DAKKA DAKKA DAKKA, PK Assault.
QFT, low armor has its advantages.
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Post by: Wildcat Carl
kmdl1066 wrote:And I disagree. At the end of initiative step 6 in your example there are no models in b2b and the assault comes to an end. All remaining initiative steps are lost.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
To explain further why combat has to end immediately when at the end of an initiative step there is no B2B. Lets look at this example.
Marines (I4) with attached Captain (I5) charge orks (I2). The captain is the only one who makes it into contact. Initiative step 5 captain kills a bunch of orks and is not in B2B anymore. Initiative step 4 marines pile in 3" but don't get into B2B. They get no attacks. Initiative step 2 orks pile in and do make it into B2B. They get to attack. THIS IS WRONG!
The assault has to end at initiative step 4 when there are no models eligible to fight and all remaining initiative steps (ie. step 2 for the orks) are lost,
This sounds correct, this is what i was trying to explain. combat would end after the Captain if at Int 4 no SM can get to B2B.
This means high int characters in CC kill a bunch or models before there attacks are struck back then his unit steps up to protect him, as long as there not int 1.
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Post by: kmdl1066
Lone Dragoon wrote: If at the end of the final initiative step that we work through (say initiative 5 from the striking scorpion example) there is no way a unit can reach, then we skip the remaining initiative steps.
But there are no initiative steps to skip if you've worked through everyone's initiative step!
Also, it tells you in the instructions for a SINGLE initiative step that if there is no contact after combined pile in moves (ie. both players models acting in that SINGLE initiative step, so you have models on both sides with the same initiative) that the assault comes to an end.
I repeat, these are the instructions for a SINGLE initiative step. If you don't evaluate it this way you get my example where models at a higher initiative don't get any attacks and then models at a lower initiative step do get attacks.
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Post by: Gorfang EadSplitta'
I hope gw posts some battlereports so we can see one in action to show how stuff will work to answer a lot of questions floating around
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Post by: DevianID
I do consider this a 'glitch' in that, from the text, it appears that GW forgot that units fighting each other may not both have units at the same init. To much marine on marine testing I guess? Perhaps not enough testing with complex units? They go out of their way to say "more than 6 inches apart" when in reality its more than 3 inches if only one side acts at an init step.
In any event, the 'Glitch' directly leads to players being able to end combat early by taking some very particular kinds of models.
For example, in a GK squad of termies, you can have 10 guys with halberds and 1 init 5 char. Because init 5 is a less common init, and because you can put the char in the back, after clearing the few closest models (that happen to always be the ones in base contact) you use your slightly lesser init char who is 3.1 inches back to end the combat without the enemy getting a chance to swing at init4 or less, simply by killing the couple of models in base contact. The enemy still loses the combat and needs a break check no less.
Works with lots of character setups. Tyranids with a Prime in something like genestealers, DE with a haemmy, Eldar with a Farseer, ect.
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Post by: Lone Dragoon
kmdl1066 wrote:Lone Dragoon wrote: If at the end of the final initiative step that we work through (say initiative 5 from the striking scorpion example) there is no way a unit can reach, then we skip the remaining initiative steps.
But there are no initiative steps to skip if you've worked through everyone's initiative step!
Also, it tells you in the instructions for a SINGLE initiative step that if there is no contact after combined pile in moves (ie. both players models acting in that SINGLE initiative step, so you have models on both sides with the same initiative) that the assault comes to an end.
I repeat, these are the instructions for a SINGLE initiative step. If you don't evaluate it this way you get my example where models at a higher initiative don't get any attacks and then models at a lower initiative step do get attacks.
You haven't worked through everyone's initiative step though. We'll use the ork example already given, and go with your view point. Grey hunters at I4 kill the orks, I3 the nob goes. You say combat ends, but you did not work through everyone's initiative step, you're forgetting about the boyz in the mob at I2.
I think you're a little mixed up on the next part. It tells you how to work out the pile in moves of an initiative step, it does not say that it is only for a single initiative step. If it was meant to be only for a single initiative step the rules would tell us to continue on doing this at every initiative step if it was for a single initiative step. The rules are for 10 identical start of initiative step pile in, not for a single step, to prove that read the first sentence of the rules section, At the start of each initiative step... This is NOT the rules for a single initiative step, it is rules for every initiative step which use an identical rules set to work through. Since the boyz are part of the combat (look at the rule I pointed out in initiative steps, they are engaged in the combat, and we end with the lowest initiative of models in the combat; In this case it is NOT the nob at I3 it is the boyz at I2) they must get their initiative step in the combat. When their initiative step comes up they make their pile in movements like everyone else in the combat.
Answer this question. Are the boyz in Kaldor's original example engaged in the combat at the start of the fight sub-phase? If the answer is Yes, they MUST have their initiative step. If the answer is no, then they do not get their initiative step. Remember we determine if a unit is engaged in combat during the charge sub-phase, the way we determine this is if the charge was successful.
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Post by: Doomaflatchi
While this seems a little odd, and I'm not sure it was exactly what they intended, it does make a certain kind of sense from the more 'cinematic' angle of the game... To take your previous example of the Space Marine Captain who kills so many orcs that the assault ends and they charge him back next turn, consider the following:
The orcs were completely unprepared for the ferocity of the Space Marine assault - their Captain in particular was a fiend, wading through the melee and leaving nothing but broken bodies in his wake. When a lull hit in the fighting, the orcs looked out across the now-open ground that their mates had charged across to see their power armored foes covered in gore. The boyz began to smash the ground with renewed fervor - if de humies wantz a fight, den dey getz a fight! The orcs redouble their fury, and charge across the blood-soaked plain.
I'm not necessarily saying it's perfectly balanced, and I think the exact timing of the whole 'Initiative Step' thing needs to be addressed, but it could conceivably produce a lot of fun situations. Powerful characters are going to feel powerful, able to beat the enemy so hard they fall away from him in defeat (remember, when the assault ends, the orcs still lost the combat resolution!).
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Post by: Norphinkr21
I got to say, the entire confusion here seems to be whether or not the "determine if combat must end" bit has to happen at every initiative step, and I don't think it does. I think the rules reference all of both players Pile In moves, meaning not all Pile In moves at a given step but all the moves at all the steps, implying every model gets to try and move closer.
As to it being redundantly worded because "if you run through every initiative step, why would it say remaining steps are lost?" that is incorrect. It says earlier that in a given round of combat you run through all ten steps, regardless as to if there are actually any models at that step. Thus, in combat between Space Marines and Ork Boyz, if, after both pile in, they are not in range combat ends and initiative step 1 is lost (even though nothing would have happened there anyway, it's mentioned because normally you'd run through that step).
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Post by: DevianID
the problem with that is still that at init 4, with 3 inches, the marines can't make combat so can't attack, but then at init 2 the orks move 3 into combat and can fight the marines who lost the ability to swing this round.
It does make more sense in this fashion that the combat ends early for the marines and orks combined, instead of the marines getting skipped.
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Post by: Norphinkr21
DevianID wrote:the problem with that is still that at init 4, with 3 inches, the marines can't make combat so can't attack, but then at init 2 the orks move 3 into combat and can fight the marines who lost the ability to swing this round.
It does make more sense in this fashion that the combat ends early for the marines and orks combined, instead of the marines getting skipped.
Well, as to the marines missing the chance to attack but the Boyz piling in and getting to swing, this actually makes sense to me. It'll only happen when the marines player positions himself poorly (whether or not he had a choice) repressing the rules fairly and even the fluff, since the marines made the mistake of over-extending themselves and now have to pay the price.
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Post by: coredump
No, it happens when the captain kills a lot of boyz. If the capt did a worse job, he would be better off.
The rules talk about 'at the start of each initiative step' and goes through the process for each step. That is singular, this is the process for *a* step.
It says that if you can't get into base, the combat stops.
What logic says that you then continue combat to the next step??
It even goes on to say that all following steps are lost. If you keep going to other steps, then they are not lost. Automatically Appended Next Post: Tarkand wrote:coredump wrote:
(More seriously, in another thread, it was brought up to hide the nob in the middle to avoid challenges. Now we see one drawback to that.
I'm not sure it's a drawback.
The orks get to charge with their furious charge next turn now, instead of getting stuck in at S3.
So, they wouldn't, they are still locked.
After the combat ends, you get combat resolution, then *another* pile in for each side. If they are still out of base, then they consolidate.
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Post by: nosferatu1001
I read it as Coredump et al read it
At the start of "a" init step, you do the pile in. Both sides have the chance to pile in, satisfying the "both players combined" requirement - even if they have no models at that init.
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Post by: god.ra
how to abuse this rule, make congo line with your squads:
Red orks, black SM with lets say IC with I5
Uploaded with ImageShack.us
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Post by: schadenfreude
I can see the combat ending scenario happening to a unit that is conga lined, or charged in the flank. Example 10 guardsmen are spread out over 20" to avoid templates. Something charges them in the flank, barely makes contact with the squad, and kills 8 guardsmen. Guardsman #9 & 10 are 18" and 20" away from the first guardsman. After all consolidations are done there is no way anybody is going to be in base to base.
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Post by: Crazyterran
god.ra wrote:how to abuse this rule, make congo line with your squads:
Red orks, black SM with lets say IC with I5
Uploaded with ImageShack.us
Except that's not how it works. Space Marines would move up 3" in the I4 initiative step, and would not reach Base to Base with anyone. The combat would end in the I4 initiative step. Any Leadership tests that are required would be taken.
The Orks don't get to move or React until the I3 phase, and that's only if the Nob does not have a Klaw. Then it's the I2 phase.
So, essentially, the Captain would charge, and kill enough Orks that he would not be in B2B or have anyone around him. the Space Marines behind him, who are now no longer in base to base or have anyone within 3 Inches, do not move. Instead, the Combat Ends, the Space Marines Consolidate, and the Orks (if they are below 10) take a Leadership test.
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Post by: god.ra
Crazyterran wrote:god.ra wrote:how to abuse this rule, make congo line with your squads:
Red orks, black SM with lets say IC with I5
Uploaded with ImageShack.us
Except that's not how it works. Space Marines would move up 3" in the I4 initiative step, and would not reach Base to Base with anyone. The combat would end in the I4 initiative step. Any Leadership tests that are required would be taken.
The Orks don't get to move or React until the I3 phase, and that's only if the Nob does not have a Klaw. Then it's the I2 phase.
So, essentially, the Captain would charge, and kill enough Orks that he would not be in B2B or have anyone around him. the Space Marines behind him, who are now no longer in base to base or have anyone within 3 Inches, do not move. Instead, the Combat Ends, the Space Marines Consolidate, and the Orks (if they are below 10) take a Leadership test.
Except this is not what the rules are stating, again, you are getting confused about ending the close combat if the models are not in CC.
1. CC sub phase, work out from I10 to I1 with all pileins,
2. After that, work out again pile ins for models which are not in CC and then and ONLY then if you cant get models to CC (after moving 6" in) the combat is ended and the quads are not in cc, That is why in the book says ITS very RARE !
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Post by: nosferatu1001
The book also says its rare to have units with mixed armour values. Oddly i dont put much stock into that.
You work through each I step and pile in ONLY at that I step.
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Post by: Crazyterran
god.ra wrote:
Except this is not what the rules are stating, again, you are getting confused about ending the close combat if the models are not in CC.
1. CC sub phase, work out from I10 to I1 with all pileins,
2. After that, work out again pile ins for models which are not in CC and then and ONLY then if you cant get models to CC (after moving 6" in) the combat is ended and the quads are not in cc, That is why in the book says ITS very RARE !
Start of Initiative Step Pile In:
"At the start of each Initiative step, any model whos Initiaive is EQUAL to the value of the current Initiative step, that isn't already in base contact with an enemy model, must make a Pile In move. A Pile In move is a 3" move that is performed in the following Order: (3 steps)"
If their initiative is the same, they move in at the same time. However, Orks are Initiative 2, and as such, would not make a pile in move until that step (the initiative 2 step). So, the Space Marines, unable to reach any Orks in the Initiative 4 step with their 3" move, cause the combat to end. The Orks take a Leadership test (assuming they aren't over 10 models) and the Space Marines Consolidate.
Remember, this is under at the "Start of Initiative step pile in". If the Marines can't reach B2B within that Pile In, the combat ends, as described in the rules. The part you are reading with the 6" is refering to something that happens if both players have models at the same initiative, which would mean both move 3" towards each other. It even says earlier in the paragraph "When making Pile In Moves, the player whose turn it is moves his unit(s) first."
And, since we learned from the previous paragraphs, that, you only pile in on your initiative step.
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Post by: Bacms
I don't have the book with me at the moment since I am at work. But I believe the way it is worded the sentence where it says that all the remaining initiative steps would be lost only apply if at some initiative step the models are more than 6inches from each other. At least it is the only sentence that I remember when they explicit says the models are no longer engaged in combat.
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Post by: god.ra
nosferatu1001 wrote:The book also says its rare to have units with mixed armour values. Oddly i dont put much stock into that.
You work through each I step and pile in ONLY at that I step.
Agree, but my point was only about abusing this rules.
Also for clarification, the only one way to end the CC and not be engaged is if you go through all initiative steps with pile ins (initial one 3” ect) and all attacks (both sides), and then if after "final pile in" (work out with I steps again) still can get into CC then the squad are not classified as engaged.
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Post by: Holdenstein
god.ra wrote:how to abuse this rule, make congo line with your squads:
Red orks, black SM with lets say IC with I5
Uploaded with ImageShack.us
The main problem with this tactic is it relies on rolling the exact (or very close) number with your charge distance. Not too little or you won't connect, and not too much so that the main portions of each unit contact each other. Overwatch and challenges make the situation even more complex. I can't see it being used successfully very often. I imagine that standard troops will want to be within 5" of a unit that they want to assault to ensure that they get there most of the time after Overwatch.
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Post by: Crazyterran
His diagram was wrong anyways, the Red Orks wouldn't get to pile in at I4 anyways.
And it only states that , in the rules under "Start of Initiative Step Pile In", that (minus the interrupt), "When making Pile In moves, the player whose turn it is moves his unit(s) first. If both players' Pile In moves combined would be insufficient to bring combatants back together, the assault comes to an end."
In the interrupt blurb, it states "(That's more than 6" - very unlikely!)"
However, this is taking into account that both units are making their pile in moves at the same initiative step, since earlier in that same paragraph the book states that when they are making pile in moves, the player whose turn it is goes first. And, they would only be going 'at the same time' during an Initiative step where both of the players are making their attacks at the same time.
So, in an Orks vs Marines example, if the Marines move up their 3" and cannot get into base to base, the combat is over, since the Orks do not get to make a pile in move during the Initiative 4 Initiative step.
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Post by: god.ra
Crazyterran wrote:god.ra wrote:
Except this is not what the rules are stating, again, you are getting confused about ending the close combat if the models are not in CC.
1. CC sub phase, work out from I10 to I1 with all pileins,
2. After that, work out again pile ins for models which are not in CC and then and ONLY then if you cant get models to CC (after moving 6" in) the combat is ended and the quads are not in cc, That is why in the book says ITS very RARE !
Start of Initiative Step Pile In:
"At the start of each Initiative step, any model whos Initiaive is EQUAL to the value of the current Initiative step, that isn't already in base contact with an enemy model, must make a Pile In move. A Pile In move is a 3" move that is performed in the following Order: (3 steps)"
If their initiative is the same, they move in at the same time. However, Orks are Initiative 2, and as such, would not make a pile in move until that step (the initiative 2 step). So, the Space Marines, unable to reach any Orks in the Initiative 4 step with their 3" move, cause the combat to end. The Orks take a Leadership test (assuming they aren't over 10 models) and the Space Marines Consolidate.
Remember, this is under at the "Start of Initiative step pile in". If the Marines can't reach B2B within that Pile In, the combat ends, as described in the rules. The part you are reading with the 6" is refering to something that happens if both players have models at the same initiative, which would mean both move 3" towards each other. It even says earlier in the paragraph "When making Pile In Moves, the player whose turn it is moves his unit(s) first."
And, since we learned from the previous paragraphs, that, you only pile in on your initiative step.
Sorry, where it says, in the working out initial pile in that you have to end the combat if you can't reach enemy? The book is telling you that :
go through I10 to I1, THEN you have final pile in and only there in the book says that if after ALL final pile in (so you went through I10- I1 and pile in, did the attacks, removed the models from closest etc.) you still can’t get in to CC you end the combat, not engaged. Look, it eves says in the book that the 6" (3" per squad) should be enough to keep them in CC.
By your example you want to finish the CC in the middle of working out the I steps (I4 because Marines can’t get in to CC). There is no rule/ sentence telling you to do that.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Crazyterran wrote:His diagram was wrong anyways, the Red Orks wouldn't get to pile in at I4 anyways.
And it only states that , in the rules under "Start of Initiative Step Pile In", that (minus the interrupt), "When making Pile In moves, the player whose turn it is moves his unit(s) first. If both players' Pile In moves combined would be insufficient to bring combatants back together, the assault comes to an end."
In the interrupt blurb, it states "(That's more than 6" - very unlikely!)"
However, this is taking into account that both units are making their pile in moves at the same initiative step, since earlier in that same paragraph the book states that when they are making pile in moves, the player whose turn it is goes first. And, they would only be going 'at the same time' during an Initiative step where both of the players are making their attacks at the same time.
So, in an Orks vs Marines example, if the Marines move up their 3" and cannot get into base to base, the combat is over, since the Orks do not get to make a pile in move during the Initiative 4 Initiative step.
Sorry orks are Black 
Ok, using your example, you would never fight in CC if you charge through difficult terrain without grenades! as your initiative then is reduced to 1.
So Guards charging SM in cover, just one model is in Base to base, rest of the models are 2"-7" away, marines does pile in, kill 6 guards (first 6 models), now what? the guard are not in Base to base ? so you end the CC? does not make sense. You kill all guys in Base contacts therefore i cannot do my pile in and hit you back?
Correct is, we working out from I10 to I1, you kill my guards, no 1 is in CC then with I1 i do my moves (pile in) and hit you back and so on.
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Post by: nosferatu1001
Please provide a page and para for this. Page 26 states you make a Pile In at each Init step - thats it.
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Post by: Crazyterran
@god.ra
On pages 22, 23 and, 26, it states that you work your way through each initiative step, from 10 to 1. Since. Each Initiative Pile in Occurs if Initiative = the Initiative Pile in step. So, 10, 9, 8, 7, 6, 5 are disregarded in your example.
at number 4, the Marines would pile in 3", and attack the guardsmen. They kill 6 models. That initiative step is over. Since the Guardsmen lost their Frag Grenades somewhere, Initiative steps 3 and 2 are disregarded as well, as no models are currently at that initiative. At initiative step one, if no Guardsmen can move up 3" and make it into base to base with any of the marines, the combat is over, and the Space Marines won by 6. Guardsmen take a Morale test. If they fail, the Marines may sweeping advance. If they pass, both pile in 3". if they somehow can not make it the 6" together, the combat is completely resolved. Otherwise, it continues on to the next turn.
The Marines get to sweeping if they fail due to the mention of checking combat results on page 26. Page 26 describes that, if at the end of the combat, the unit fails, the other may take a sweeping advance check. It does not mention anything about whether the models are in base to base for the Sweeping Advance to be performed, so the Guardsmen can still be swept if they fail their LD test.
SO yes, if the Guardsmen can not make it the 3" into close combat with the marines after the In 4 phase, the combat would be over. The Marines would not pile in during the In 1 phase, as none of their models strike at that point.
EDIT: This is not a glitch. This is intended for that if you congo line to get into an assault quicker, and get reamed in that opening round, you will be punished for it.
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Post by: god.ra
Crazyterran wrote:@god.ra
On pages 22, 23 and, 26, it states that you work your way through each initiative step, from 10 to 1. Since. Each Initiative Pile in Occurs if Initiative = the Initiative Pile in step. So, 10, 9, 8, 7, 6, 5 are disregarded in your example.
at number 4, the Marines would pile in 3", and attack the guardsmen. They kill 6 models. That initiative step is over. Since the Guardsmen lost their Frag Grenades somewhere, Initiative steps 3 and 2 are disregarded as well, as no models are currently at that initiative. At initiative step one, if no Guardsmen can move up 3" and make it into base to base with any of the marines, the combat is over, and the Space Marines won by 6. Guardsmen take a Morale test. If they fail, the Marines may sweeping advance. If they pass, both pile in 3". if they somehow can not make it the 6" together, the combat is completely resolved. Otherwise, it continues on to the next turn.
The Marines get to sweeping if they fail due to the mention of checking combat results on page 26. Page 26 describes that, if at the end of the combat, the unit fails, the other may take a sweeping advance check. It does not mention anything about whether the models are in base to base for the Sweeping Advance to be performed, so the Guardsmen can still be swept if they fail their LD test.
SO yes, if the Guardsmen can not make it the 3" into close combat with the marines after the In 4 phase, the combat would be over. The Marines would not pile in during the In 1 phase, as none of their models strike at that point.
EDIT: This is not a glitch. This is intended for that if you congo line to get into an assault quicker, and get reamed in that opening round, you will be punished for it.
Disagree, where it says that is in some point of working out the Initiative steps you can't get in to b2b the combat is over? Page nr, and sentence please.
It says, you working out form I10 to I1. Yes?
that is it. so if in I4 you cant get in base to base (because you killed lots of stuff with I5) you move to I3, if 3 can get in to, you move to I2 if 2 cant get go in to then 1. Then you do morale, and depending on outcome after that you do final pile in. and only then if you still cant get into b2b you classify this one as not engaged.
So going back to the 1 example, Commander kills 3 orks for the front with I5, then marines goes with I4, move 3" can get in to fight therefore losing the attacks (Page 26), then is time for I3 - no body, then I2 orks does pile in 3" and do their attacks, then is i1, lets says your sergeant with Power fist.
Make sense now?, book says ALL models goes, therefore if you can get in to b2b with your initiative 4 , other models have to do it with 3 or lower.
There is nowhere saying that the combat ends if in some point of working out the Initiative steps (and pile in) you can get in to 2b2. It only says after the combat (I10 - I1) and final pile in still can get in to 2b2 the squads are not engaged.
squads are not enguaged.
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Post by: Crazyterran
Page 23. It CLEARLY states that if the models cannot get into base to base at the end of the current in. step, if the models can't make it into base to base, the combat is over.
Under the START OF INITIATIVE STEP PILE IN(So 4, in our example)
THE 5TH PARAGRAPH DOWN, THE LAST TWO SENTENCES:
"If both players' Pile in Moves" those who are piling in at the INITIATIVE 4 STEP "combined would be insufficient to bring any combatants back together, the assault comes to an end. All remaining Initiative steps are lost - work out the assault result as described on page 26."
So, if at the INITIATIVE STEP 4, NOBODY IS IN BASE TO BASE, THE COMBAT IS OVER.
I can't state it any plainer than that. If you don't understand at this point, go back to school.
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Post by: kmdl1066
god.ra wrote:
Disagree, where it says that is in some point of working out the Initiative steps you can't get in to b2b the combat is over? Page nr, and sentence please.
Page 23 last paragraph under the section titled Start of Initiative STEP Pile in. Notice the word STEP. This is what you do for one step. If at the end of one one step '..would be insufficient to bring any combatants back together ..., the assault comes to an end."
Once again, we are given no instructions to first do all pile ins and the do all combats. We are told you work through the initiative steps from 10 down to one. And then we are told that at each initiative step we have Start of Initiative Step Pile In, Who Can Fight, Number of Attacks, Rolling to Hit, Rolling To Wound, Allocating Wounds. Every one of those is done before moving on to the next initiative step.
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Post by: tgf
It clearly says on page 23 under the initiative step pile in "insufficient to bring any combatants back together ... the assault comes to an end. END people, it does say continue to next initiative step, this is what is known as an escape in a loop. The OP was 100% correct in his assessment. Those of you that continue to do next initiative steps are playing incorrectly, or using house rules. As other posters have said the 6" clause is only if both models are playing in the same I. Arguing counter to this very easy to understand language is a bit like claiming a dog is a bear because it has 4 legs and a tail.
Damn you kmd 1 minute faster than me damn you!!!!! 
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Post by: kmdl1066
Don't yell at me when crazyterran ninja'd both of us!
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Post by: Crazyterran
I'm still not sure if this guy is serious or trolling.
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Post by: tgf
oh man double owned :(
I guess we should look on the bright side at least three of us are up early morning on a monday looking at the rules...that's good right?
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Post by: Bacms
Crazyterran wrote:
THE 5TH PARAGRAPH DOWN, THE LAST TWO SENTENCES:
"If both players' Pile in Moves" those who are piling in at the INITIATIVE 4 STEP "combined would be insufficient to bring any combatants back together, the assault comes to an end. All remaining Initiative steps are lost - work out the assault result as described on page 26."
That only applies if both players move at the same initiative and they are more than 6inches away appart. it is clear from the rulebook that is the only way to end combat. If at any initiative step models are more than 6 inches the combats ends and the remaining initiative steps are lost. Making this work as something to be explored on the game on the other hand....not going to happen.
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Post by: Norphinkr21
Crazyterran wrote:Page 23. It CLEARLY states that if the models cannot get into base to base at the end of the current in. step, if the models can't make it into base to base, the combat is over.
Under the START OF INITIATIVE STEP PILE IN(So 4, in our example)
THE 5TH PARAGRAPH DOWN, THE LAST TWO SENTENCES:
"If both players' Pile in Moves" those who are piling in at the INITIATIVE 4 STEP "combined would be insufficient to bring any combatants back together, the assault comes to an end. All remaining Initiative steps are lost - work out the assault result as described on page 26."
So, if at the INITIATIVE STEP 4, NOBODY IS IN BASE TO BASE, THE COMBAT IS OVER.
I can't state it any plainer than that. If you don't understand at this point, go back to school.
That's the entire issue! In the paragraph describing combat ending, as you say the fifth down, it doesn't say anywhere that you check during each I step. You're only assuming you do because there wasn't a new heading since the last one, which happened to be START OF INITIATIVE STEP PILE IN.
The thing is, you can't make that assumption. There are loads of rules that didn't get a heading. That doesn't mean they should fall under the previous one.
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Post by: god.ra
Bacms wrote:Crazyterran wrote:
THE 5TH PARAGRAPH DOWN, THE LAST TWO SENTENCES:
"If both players' Pile in Moves" those who are piling in at the INITIATIVE 4 STEP "combined would be insufficient to bring any combatants back together, the assault comes to an end. All remaining Initiative steps are lost - work out the assault result as described on page 26."
That only applies if both players move at the same initiative and they are more than 6inches away appart. it is clear from the rulebook that is the only way to end combat. If at any initiative step models are more than 6 inches the combats ends and the remaining initiative steps are lost. Making this work as something to be explored on the game on the other hand....not going to happen.
Exactly, otherwise you would have issues like:
"Marines charge Orks
I4 marines kill all orks in base contact.
I3 Nob is more than 3" from marines
Combat ends.... boyz don't get to move
large brood of stealers assaults some marines, the BroodLord is in the back.
At I7 the Blord moves forward, but is still not close enough to be engaged.... Combat ends??? "
Crazyterran was I offending you? Don’t think so, I demand apologises ….
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Post by: tgf
Ra READ!!!. In your gene stealer example the brood lord doesn't go but the combat continues because there are engaged models. This is so simple I don't understand the masses of confusion other than people just not believing what they are reading.
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Post by: Lone Dragoon
Crazyterran wrote:Page 23. It CLEARLY states that if the models cannot get into base to base at the end of the current in. step, if the models can't make it into base to base, the combat is over.
Under the START OF INITIATIVE STEP PILE IN(So 4, in our example)
THE 5TH PARAGRAPH DOWN, THE LAST TWO SENTENCES:
"If both players' Pile in Moves" those who are piling in at the INITIATIVE 4 STEP "combined would be insufficient to bring any combatants back together, the assault comes to an end. All remaining Initiative steps are lost - work out the assault result as described on page 26."
So, if at the INITIATIVE STEP 4, NOBODY IS IN BASE TO BASE, THE COMBAT IS OVER.
I can't state it any plainer than that. If you don't understand at this point, go back to school.
First off, obviously it's not as clear as you seem to make it out to be if we have this big discussion over the rule. Let's look at a hypothetical here, a squad of marines charges a unit of gretchin. They kill the runtherder in the initial attack, and kill 10 other gretchin let's say. What you're saying is that at initiative step 3, the combat ends because there are no models in base contact. Just because we can skip an initiative step, does not need we must skip that step. Here's where your argument falls apart, since we can force initiative step 3 to happen (like I said, can skip, we don't have to) there are no models in base contact then the combat must be over by your rule, but it isn't. We clearly are given permission for both sides to have their pile in move. I will reiterate my question from earlier, Are the boyz in Kaldor's original example engaged in the combat at the start of the fight sub-phase? If the answer is Yes, they MUST have their initiative step. If the answer is no, then they do not get their initiative step. Remember we determine if a unit is engaged in combat during the charge sub-phase, the way we determine this is if the charge was successful. That question is where the argument on your side runs into a wall, we have permission to go through the initiative of every engaged mode. In the original example we have not gone through EVERY engaged models turn, only some of them. The boyz must have their turn.
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Post by: Bacms
The rule is definitely not clear at all. The problem is the way they included the paragraph that deals with units going at the same initiative step. This is were people are getting confused. But the way is is written you have to guess this is what they refer to because otherwise nothing on that paragraph makes sense.
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Post by: tgf
if there is no one in the iniative step it is skipped, no pile in is made therefore no check to end of combat. Once again a bad example.
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Post by: jms40k
Bacms wrote:The rule is definitely not clear at all. The problem is the way they included the paragraph that deals with units going at the same initiative step. This is were people are getting confused. But the way is is written you have to guess this is what they refer to because otherwise nothing on that paragraph makes sense.
Read it without the parenthetical, that part is not part of the rules. It makes perfect sense.
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Post by: god.ra
tgf wrote:Ra READ!!!. In your gene stealer example the brood lord doesn't go but the combat continues because there are engaged models. This is so simple I don't understand the masses of confusion other than people just not believing what they are reading.
Ok, simple: squad A with I5 ,gets charged by squad B with I3 with Character I4.
Now , we start in 2b2, you go first I5, killing front raw, so we not in b2b, then is I4 character, moving 3" but not enougth to get him in to 2b2 ( was at the back of the squad) and now what???? according to you the combat is over??? As there are no models with I4 in b2b ... Your so wrong!
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Post by: jms40k
god.ra wrote:tgf wrote:Ra READ!!!. In your gene stealer example the brood lord doesn't go but the combat continues because there are engaged models. This is so simple I don't understand the masses of confusion other than people just not believing what they are reading.
Ok, simple: squad A with I5 ,gets charged by squad B with I3 with Character I4.
Now , we start in 2b2, you go first I5, killing front raw, so we not in b2b, then is I4 character, moving 3" but not enougth to get him in to 2b2 ( was at the back of the squad) and now what???? according to you the combat is over??? As there are no models with I4 in b2b ... Your so wrong!
We are now at initiative step 4:
"If both players' Pile In moves... (note that player A does not have any at this initiative step)... would be insufficient to bring any combatants back together (as stated in your example), the assault comes to an end."
Parentheticals are mine, rest from rulebook.
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Post by: Bacms
Parentheticals are mine, rest from rulebook.
If we ignore the parentheticals then there is no problem 
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Post by: jms40k
Bacms wrote:
Parentheticals are mine, rest from rulebook.
If we ignore the parentheticals then there is no problem
Yep, parentheticals are there for clarification and explanation The rule is clear as it stands.
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Post by: nosferatu1001
god.ra wrote:tgf wrote:Ra READ!!!. In your gene stealer example the brood lord doesn't go but the combat continues because there are engaged models. This is so simple I don't understand the masses of confusion other than people just not believing what they are reading.
Ok, simple: squad A with I5 ,gets charged by squad B with I3 with Character I4.
Now , we start in 2b2, you go first I5, killing front raw, so we not in b2b, then is I4 character, moving 3" but not enougth to get him in to 2b2 ( was at the back of the squad) and now what???? according to you the combat is over??? As there are no models with I4 in b2b ... Your so wrong!
No, theyre not. You are. They have provided actual rules quotes, pages and paras, as per the tenets of this forum. You have not done so, you have instead given an opinion that something is wrong.
This is 6trh edition. Careful placement of models is critical in moving, shooting and assaulting. If, at the end of any I step models are not in b2b the combat ends. That is directly from the rules.
In your example combat ends. Sorry if this doesnt seem right to you, but you are still reading it making assumptions that have no basis in the real rules.
If you wish to continue posting, please follow the rules of the forum.
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Post by: Bacms
nosferatu1001 wrote:god.ra wrote:tgf wrote:Ra READ!!!. In your gene stealer example the brood lord doesn't go but the combat continues because there are engaged models. This is so simple I don't understand the masses of confusion other than people just not believing what they are reading.
Ok, simple: squad A with I5 ,gets charged by squad B with I3 with Character I4.
Now , we start in 2b2, you go first I5, killing front raw, so we not in b2b, then is I4 character, moving 3" but not enougth to get him in to 2b2 ( was at the back of the squad) and now what???? according to you the combat is over??? As there are no models with I4 in b2b ... Your so wrong!
No, theyre not. You are. They have provided actual rules quotes, pages and paras, as per the tenets of this forum. You have not done so, you have instead given an opinion that something is wrong.
This is 6trh edition. Careful placement of models is critical in moving, shooting and assaulting. If, at the end of any I step models are not in b2b the combat ends. That is directly from the rules.
In your example combat ends. Sorry if this doesnt seem right to you, but you are still reading it making assumptions that have no basis in the real rules.
If you wish to continue posting, please follow the rules of the forum.
I will quote the rulebook when I get home. But remember that this is not something that can be exploited that easy. We are talking about charging. This mean overwatch and rolling for charger distance. Then movement in a way that you move 2D6+3' and the unit you are assaulting need to be in coherency with each other so doing a conga line to charge means actually failing to charge a lot of the times. Again in game I don't think this happening that often
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Post by: jms40k
Bacms wrote:
If you wish to continue posting, please follow the rules of the forum.
I will quote the rulebook when I get home. But remember that this is not something that can be exploited that easy. We are talking about charging. This mean overwatch and rolling for charger distance. Then movement in a way that you move 2D6+3' and the unit you are assaulting need to be in coherency with each other so doing a conga line to charge means actually failing to charge a lot of the times. Again in game I don't think this happening that often
I agree that this won't happen too often, but there are some models that can do a lot of attacks/wounds with some lucky rolling. Blood Talon dreadnoughts and Lelith Hesperax come to mind.
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Post by: nosferatu1001
The relevant quotes have already been given - and i didnt say it was easy to exploit, or even an exploit - this is how the rules are currently written. Spreading out to avoid blast markers can leave you vulnerable to a high I foe denying you attacks.
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Post by: Bacms
jms40k wrote:Bacms wrote:
If you wish to continue posting, please follow the rules of the forum.
Did I broke the rules?
The units you mentioned have always did a lot of wounds. It has nothing to do with the new edition.
One thing I am not clear yet it is psychic power like cleansing flame would mean the Grey knights might actually never make to swing. Or is this applied before their initiative step?
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Post by: jms40k
Bacms wrote:
The units you mentioned have always did a lot of wounds. It has nothing to do with the new edition.
Yes, but this change in the rules might mean it matters which remaining models can fight back. Remember, in 5th you did a pile-in of 6" before fighting began. This initiative-step order of pile-ins is new and will lead to these rules discussions.
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Post by: tgf
god.ra wrote:tgf wrote:Ra READ!!!. In your gene stealer example the brood lord doesn't go but the combat continues because there are engaged models. This is so simple I don't understand the masses of confusion other than people just not believing what they are reading.
Ok, simple: squad A with I5 ,gets charged by squad B with I3 with Character I4.
Now , we start in 2b2, you go first I5, killing front raw, so we not in b2b, then is I4 character, moving 3" but not enougth to get him in to 2b2 ( was at the back of the squad) and now what???? according to you the combat is over??? As there are no models with I4 in b2b ... Your so wrong!
I am so right. That is exactly what happens, read and process it step by step, it will make sense to you.
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Post by: nosferatu1001
I think the quoting is messed up there!
The tenets of the forum require you to back up assertions with rules. An assertion that something is "wrong", without any rules or failure to argue against eh rules presented makes for a very frustrating rules forum.
SO far the rules state, explicitly, that at the end of I step pile in not being in base to base means the combat is ended. No rule contradicting this rule, or dissecting why this is wrong, has been presented.
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Post by: jms40k
It's also important to note that old 5th rules declared that any model that could fight at the start of battle could fight until the end (unless it was dead of course), regardless of wounds taken removing B2B models. That rule is not given in 6th.
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Post by: Norphinkr21
Bacms wrote:
One thing I am not clear yet it is psychic power like cleansing flame would mean the Grey knights might actually never make to swing. Or is this applied before their initiative step?
I don't know about psychic powers as a whole, but technically Cleansing Flames is supposed to be rolled against each model individually, so you wouldn't allocate anyway and the GreybKnights could very well still be in range. What's more, since cleansing happens before combat begins the Purifiers will get to pile in themselves.
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Post by: Lone Dragoon
tgf wrote:if there is no one in the iniative step it is skipped, no pile in is made therefore no check to end of combat. Once again a bad example.
Maybe the gretchin weren't the best thought out example, but you never answered the question I posted. Keep in mind, one of the answers actually supports your side's argument so it's not a useless question. We determine if a unit is engaged by whether or not a charge was successful. If the charge was successful the unit is engaged, if the charge was not successful the unit is not engaged. That part is simple to understand. The next part is the book tells us (Page 22, under the Initiative steps) Work your way through the Initiative values of the models engaged in the combat, starting with the highest and ending with the lowest. This tells us that every model gets its turn to act on their initiative in combat. With how your side's argument works, the nob is engaged in the combat but the boyz are not. Remember we determined in the previous sub-phase if the models in the unit are engaged, who is engaged does not change from one sub-phase to another. The unit was engaged, but only one model in the unit made its pile in, not every model in the unit.
Again I pose the question, are the boyz in Kaldor's original example engaged in the combat at the start of the fight sub-phase? If the answer is Yes, they MUST have their initiative step. If the answer is no, then they do not get their initiative step.
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Post by: Bacms
nosferatu1001 wrote:
SO far the rules state, explicitly, that at the end of I step pile in not being in base to base means the combat is ended. No rule contradicting this rule, or dissecting why this is wrong, has been presented.
Except they don't. They only say: If both players' Pile In moves would be insufficient to bring any combatants back together the assault comes to an end. You are assuming that is at the same initiative step. There is no place in the rules to back up this.
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Post by: jms40k
Lone Dragoon wrote:tgf wrote:if there is no one in the iniative step it is skipped, no pile in is made therefore no check to end of combat. Once again a bad example.
Maybe the gretchin weren't the best thought out example, but you never answered the question I posted. Keep in mind, one of the answers actually supports your side's argument so it's not a useless question. We determine if a unit is engaged by whether or not a charge was successful. If the charge was successful the unit is engaged, if the charge was not successful the unit is not engaged. That part is simple to understand. The next part is the book tells us (Page 22, under the Initiative steps) Work your way through the Initiative values of the models engaged in the combat, starting with the highest and ending with the lowest. This tells us that every model gets its turn to act on their initiative in combat. With how your side's argument works, the nob is engaged in the combat but the boyz are not. Remember we determined in the previous sub-phase if the models in the unit are engaged, who is engaged does not change from one sub-phase to another. The unit was engaged, but only one model in the unit made its pile in, not every model in the unit.
Again I pose the question, are the boyz in Kaldor's original example engaged in the combat at the start of the fight sub-phase? If the answer is Yes, they MUST have their initiative step. If the answer is no, then they do not get their initiative step.
You are ignoring half of the rules here. It doesn't say they must get a chance to act, it says to work through each initiative step. At a certain initiative step, it may be that "...All remaining Initiative steps are lost..." That's pretty clear. Automatically Appended Next Post: Bacms wrote:nosferatu1001 wrote:
SO far the rules state, explicitly, that at the end of I step pile in not being in base to base means the combat is ended. No rule contradicting this rule, or dissecting why this is wrong, has been presented.
Except they don't. They only say: If both players' Pile In moves would be insufficient to bring any combatants back together the assault comes to an end. You are assuming that is at the same initiative step. There is no place in the rules to back up this.
There are only two places that pile-in moves are strictly allowed. At Initiative Step and at End of Combat. The End of Combat pile in refers explicitly to the Initiative Step pile in for a ruleset. This is why you are confused. When checking Initiative Step pile-ins you are referring to the Initiative Step pile-in and not the End of Combat pile-in.
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Post by: Lone Dragoon
jms40k wrote:You are ignoring half of the rules here. It doesn't say they must get a chance to act, it says to work through each initiative step. At a certain initiative step, it may be that "...All remaining Initiative steps are lost..." That's pretty clear.
However, the problem you run into by saying that all remaining initiative steps are lost is that you broke the rule of "ending with the lowest" because you did not work through the lowest initiative. Instead you stopped halfway through.
57035
Post by: jms40k
Lone Dragoon wrote:jms40k wrote:You are ignoring half of the rules here. It doesn't say they must get a chance to act, it says to work through each initiative step. At a certain initiative step, it may be that "...All remaining Initiative steps are lost..." That's pretty clear.
However, the problem you run into by saying that all remaining initiative steps are lost is that you broke the rule of "ending with the lowest" because you did not work through the lowest initiative. Instead you stopped halfway through.
"Work your way through..." does not mean that you have to get to every initiative step. It means you have to resolve initiative steps in order. The rule for losing all remaining initiative steps breaks you out of this process and skips you to somewhere else.
21110
Post by: Lone Dragoon
First off, again you're only taking half the rule. Start with the highest, end with the lowest. In the original example the lowest initiative is 2.
However, what I'm getting at is that nothing in start of initiative steps pile in rules specifically tells us that at the end of any step there is no base to base contact then the fight is over. It tells us after both players' Pile in moves combined would be insufficient. You're taking the nob to be the only pile in move, the boyz themselves still get their pile in move. Why? Because it is part of a "players' pile in moves". It does not say the players' first pile in move (or next pile in move), just pile in moves. So if none of a players pile in moves get him back into combat, then it ends. Again, nothing says next pile in or first pile in, so we have to assume that "players' pile in moves" refers to all pile in moves the players make during the turn.
57035
Post by: jms40k
Lone Dragoon wrote:First off, again you're only taking half the rule. Start with the highest, end with the lowest. In the original example the lowest initiative is 2.
However, what I'm getting at is that nothing in start of initiative steps pile in rules specifically tells us that at the end of any step there is no base to base contact then the fight is over. It tells us after both players' Pile in moves combined would be insufficient. You're taking the nob to be the only pile in move, the boyz themselves still get their pile in move. Why? Because it is part of a "players' pile in moves". It does not say the players' first pile in move (or next pile in move), just pile in moves. So if none of a players pile in moves get him back into combat, then it ends. Again, nothing says next pile in or first pile in, so we have to assume that "players' pile in moves" refers to all pile in moves the players make during the turn.
Except that the pile-ins are done at each initiative step. At initiative step 3, only the Nob gets a pile-in move. If that is insufficient, the next part triggers and the assault is over.
33774
Post by: tgf
For a model to be engaged in combat it must be in B2B or within 2 inches of a model in B2B. It is possible for a model to be engaged in I4 and lose it in I3. As pointed out earlier the if you could fight at the begining you get to fight clause no longer exists. If in any iniative phase no one is in B2B after pile in the combat is over. Its pretty cut and dry right in the rules. If you played out further iniative phases there would be no need for the end of combat clause. I really don't think this is a glitch so much as a mechanic to deal with things like congalined combats or just barely making a charge with the first model.
21110
Post by: Lone Dragoon
jms40k wrote:Except that the pile-ins are done at each initiative step. At initiative step 3, only the Nob gets a pile-in move. If that is insufficient, the next part triggers and the assault is over.
Exactly, they are done at each initiative step. However there is still an initiative step to play out. Again, it says if a "players' pile in moves" not "if the next pile in moves". If it said the next pile in moves, I would be on your side of the argument. It doesn't, it takes an overly broad approach, assuming that every model will get it's attempt to pile in.
tgf wrote:For a model to be engaged in combat it must be in B2B or within 2 inches of a model in B2B. It is possible for a model to be engaged in I4 and lose it in I3. As pointed out earlier the if you could fight at the begining you get to fight clause no longer exists. If in any iniative phase no one is in B2B after pile in the combat is over. Its pretty cut and dry right in the rules.
Again, you're inserting a portion into the rules, "If in any iniative phase no one is in B2B after pile in the combat is over." I don't see that in the rules anywhere. What I do see in the rules is, "If both players' pile in moves combined would be insufficient to bring any combatants back together the assault comes to an end." It does not say, in any initiative step, it says if both players' pile in moves. So the UNIT of orks must make it's pile in move, as it was the unit that is engaged in combat not specifically the nob.
57035
Post by: jms40k
Lone Dragoon wrote:jms40k wrote:Except that the pile-ins are done at each initiative step. At initiative step 3, only the Nob gets a pile-in move. If that is insufficient, the next part triggers and the assault is over.
Exactly, they are done at each initiative step. However there is still an initiative step to play out.
Only if you stop reading before you get to "All remaining initiative steps are lost..."
31097
Post by: Holdenstein
Bacms wrote:nosferatu1001 wrote:
SO far the rules state, explicitly, that at the end of I step pile in not being in base to base means the combat is ended. No rule contradicting this rule, or dissecting why this is wrong, has been presented.
Except they don't. They only say: If both players' Pile In moves would be insufficient to bring any combatants back together the assault comes to an end. You are assuming that is at the same initiative step. There is no place in the rules to back up this.
At first I agreed with Nosferatu, after rereading the rules a few times I now agree with Bacms. The rule says if both players pile-ins- not one player, as it is being interpreted, and there is no mention of ending the assault when all models are out of B2B. I believe that it's there to save time moving models that will never be able to reach base to base and therefore get re-engaged in any remaining initiative steps. If you read the rule on its own, without running it into any sentences around it, it's the only logical conclusion.
Therefore I believe it is possible for low I models to exploit, although very difficult to do due to random charge length.
57035
Post by: jms40k
Holdenstein wrote: The rule says if both players pile-ins- not one player, as it is being interpreted, and there is no mention of ending the assault when all models are out of B2B. I believe that it's there to save time moving models that will never be able to reach base to base and therefore get re-engaged in any remaining initiative steps. If you read the rule on its own, without running it into any sentences around it, it's the only logical conclusion.
Therefore I believe it is possible for low I models to exploit, although very difficult to do due to random charge length.
Arguments are going in circles. You either accept that pile-ins are done per initiative step or not. If you accept that they are then this wording is simple: It's initiative step 4, only the SM get a pile-in, therefore "Both player's pile-ins" is then: SM piles-in, the other does not (as they don't get one). If its the latter, then you are going to have a tough time getting RAW out of the rulebook to support your arguments unless a FAQ comes out to support it.
31097
Post by: Holdenstein
jms40k wrote:Holdenstein wrote: The rule says if both players pile-ins- not one player, as it is being interpreted, and there is no mention of ending the assault when all models are out of B2B. I believe that it's there to save time moving models that will never be able to reach base to base and therefore get re-engaged in any remaining initiative steps. If you read the rule on its own, without running it into any sentences around it, it's the only logical conclusion.
Therefore I believe it is possible for low I models to exploit, although very difficult to do due to random charge length.
Arguments are going in circles. You either accept that pile-ins are done per initiative step or not. If you accept that they are then this wording is simple: It's initiative step 4, only the SM get a pile-in, therefore "Both player's pile-ins" is then: SM piles-in, the other does not (as they don't get one). If its the latter, then you are going to have a tough time getting RAW out of the rulebook to support your arguments unless a FAQ comes out to support it.
I'll agree to differ then- if you read it your way the bracketed section makes no sense whatsoever. Still with random charge lengths and the initial charge rules, which insist on getting as many models into combat as possible, it's going to be pretty rare and the chances of it actually coming up in one of my games before the FAQ is low.
EDIT- I'll certainly agree with you that the wording and positioning of the rule is ambiguous!
270
Post by: winterman
I have to agree with most in here -- the mentioning of 6"'s of pile ins is not rules in a sense of giving permissions, just color text and clarification. The only time you get to pile in is when the rules say you can and that's at the model's initiative step or after combat resolution. Nothing else in those rules give you permission to do so outside of that. Even inferring, one could say the color text is just reminding you to make both pile ins if possible before ending the combat and nothing more
I think many in here are maybe not familiar with older editions where it was quite possible to clear a killzone at higher initiatives and deny attacks of those with lower initiatives. I think that is exactly what they were trying to bring back. Which is a nice boost to a lot of units that got raped by all the other changes (stealers and wyches come to mind). It also makes those 6 point boyz seem all the more appropriately costed. All in my humble opinion.
43836
Post by: Bacms
jms40k wrote:Holdenstein wrote: The rule says if both players pile-ins- not one player, as it is being interpreted, and there is no mention of ending the assault when all models are out of B2B. I believe that it's there to save time moving models that will never be able to reach base to base and therefore get re-engaged in any remaining initiative steps. If you read the rule on its own, without running it into any sentences around it, it's the only logical conclusion.
Therefore I believe it is possible for low I models to exploit, although very difficult to do due to random charge length.
Arguments are going in circles. You either accept that pile-ins are done per initiative step or not. If you accept that they are then this wording is simple: It's initiative step 4, only the SM get a pile-in, therefore "Both player's pile-ins" is then: SM piles-in, the other does not (as they don't get one). If its the latter, then you are going to have a tough time getting RAW out of the rulebook to support your arguments unless a FAQ comes out to support it.
Not sure if I get your argument. I have the rulebook with me at the moment so can finally give my opinion supported
So this is my take on this.
Once your charge (charge move) and get at least one model in b2b they are from now on locked in combat.
Then you can start the fight sub phase. The first it tells you is the initiative steps and specifically says "Work your way thorough the Initiatives models engaging in the combat" it also says to skip any that don't have models fighting in (Page 22).
Next step is the start of each initiative step where it says "At the start of each initiative step, any model whose Initiative is equal to the current Initiative step. that isn't already in base contact with an enemy model, must take a pile in move"
Then it goes to say When making Pile in moves, the player whose turn it is move(s) his unit first. Which seems to be referring to only the case where they have both the same initiative. Then it goes and says "If both player's pile in moves combined would be insufficient to bring any combatants back together (that's more than 6'' - very unlikely), the assault comes to an end. All remaining Initiative steps are lost.
Hence it specifically says that when and only when the models are more than 6'' away you can finish the assault and skip all the remaining initiative steps. You have no permission to do it at any other time.
This is also supported below on the Who can fight section by saying that you have to work out whether a unit that is locked in combat is also engaged. So it is clearly that being locked in combat does not require units to be engaged.
Finally you have the End of combat Pile in. That says "After the combat has been resolved, it can happen that some models from units that did not Fall back are not in base contact with an enemy must take a pile in move. Again units that have no models engaged in combat are not following back so have to pile in. So it is once more impossible only if they were more than 6inches away. Which is further reinforced with the consolidation that supports you are only able to do this if the end of combat pile in was insufficient to bring them together again.
So to conclude [b]Nowhere in the rulebook you are allowed to break out of close combat but not having models in b2b[/]. When does the rulebook allows a unit engaged in combat to break out of combat? If at a initiative step units are more than 6 inches away from each other. Or you made the unit fall back or you destroy an enemy unit. So you have no permission to end the combat otherwise. Yes it means that sometimes units may not strike back but they will keep locked in combat.
By the way you could already break from close combat in 5th if you ended up more than 6'' away. This is not a new restriction just more likely to happen now
33774
Post by: tgf
Bacms wrote:
Next step is the start of each initiative step where it says "At the start of each initiative step, any model whose Initiative is equal to the current Initiative step. that isn't already in base contact with an enemy model, must take a pile in move"
Then it goes to say When making Pile in moves, the player whose turn it is move(s) his unit first. Which seems to be referring to only the case where they have both the same initiative. Then it goes and says "If both player's pile in moves combined would be insufficient to bring any combatants back together (that's more than 6'' - very unlikely), the assault comes to an end. All remaining Initiative steps are lost.
Hence it specifically says that when and only when the models are more than 6'' away you can finish the assault and skip all the remaining initiative steps. You have no permission to do it at any other time.
This is where you fail. It doesn't say it must be more than 6 inches. It implies that if at that iniative step both you and opponents have models move 3 inches each, however if you don't both have models in that I step it is 3 inches.
57035
Post by: jms40k
You are getting confused a bit.
Units are not engaged in combat, models are engaged in combat. They are engaged by either: 1.) Being in B2B contact or 2.) Being 2" from a friendly model that is in B2B.
It says that the player whose turn it is piles-in first, great. But still, only models in Initiative Step X get to move. If one player doesn't have any models at that Initiative Step then he/she doesn't move any models.
If at the end of this pile-in, there are no engaged models, the combat ends, all other initiative steps are discarded, and combat resolution takes place.
End of Combat is the only other time that ALL models that were in a unit involved in the combat can make pile-in moves. This is independent of Initiative Step.
43836
Post by: Bacms
tgf wrote:This is where you fail. It doesn't say it must be more than 6 inches. It implies that if at that iniative step both you and opponents have models move 3 inches each, however if you don't both have models in that I step it is 3 inches.
Ok got your argument now, although still don't agree with you. No where it says at that initiative step but it does says both players and more importantly it specifies this needs to be more than 6''.
jms40k wrote:You are getting confused a bit.
Units are not engaged in combat, models are engaged in combat. They are engaged by either: 1.) Being in B2B contact or 2.) Being 2" from a friendly model that is in B2B.
I am not confused what I am saying is that are two things, one is units locked in combat the other is models engaged.
jms40k wrote:
It says that the player whose turn it is piles-in first, great. But still, only models in Initiative Step X get to move. If one player doesn't have any models at that Initiative Step then he/she doesn't move any models.
If at the end of this pile-in, there are no engaged models, the combat ends, all other initiative steps are discarded, and combat resolution takes place.
Page number please? I can't find anywhere where it says that if at the end of a pile-in there is no engaged models the combat ends.
jms40k wrote:
End of Combat is the only other time that ALL models that were in a unit involved in the combat can make pile-in moves. This is independent of Initiative Step.
Agree never said it was different. In fact this supports you don't break out of combat.
57035
Post by: jms40k
Bacms wrote:tgf wrote:This is where you fail. It doesn't say it must be more than 6 inches. It implies that if at that iniative step both you and opponents have models move 3 inches each, however if you don't both have models in that I step it is 3 inches.
Ok got your argument now, although still don't agree with you. No where it says at that initiative step but it does says both players and more importantly it specifies this needs to be more than 6''.
It says that only models at that initiative step can do the pile-in moves... you reinforce that with your post.
jms40k wrote:You are getting confused a bit.
Units are not engaged in combat, models are engaged in combat. They are engaged by either: 1.) Being in B2B contact or 2.) Being 2" from a friendly model that is in B2B.
I am not confused what I am saying is that are two things, one is units locked in combat the other is models engaged.
jms40k wrote:
It says that the player whose turn it is piles-in first, great. But still, only models in Initiative Step X get to move. If one player doesn't have any models at that Initiative Step then he/she doesn't move any models.
If at the end of this pile-in, there are no engaged models, the combat ends, all other initiative steps are discarded, and combat resolution takes place.
Page number please? I can't find anywhere where it says that if at the end of a pile-in there is no engaged models the combat ends.
Really? It's right there under what you are referencing about both players piling-in...
jms40k wrote:
End of Combat is the only other time that ALL models that were in a unit involved in the combat can make pile-in moves. This is independent of Initiative Step.
Agree never said it was different. In fact this supports you don't break out of combat.
Except where it says that combat ends because your models are no longer engaged.
36241
Post by: Murrdox
Bacms wrote:
So to conclude Nowhere in the rulebook you are allowed to break out of close combat but not having models in b2b. When does the rulebook allows a unit engaged in combat to break out of combat? If at a initiative step units are more than 6 inches away from each other. Or you made the unit fall back or you destroy an enemy unit. So you have no permission to end the combat otherwise. Yes it means that sometimes units may not strike back but they will keep locked in combat.
By the way you could already break from close combat in 5th if you ended up more than 6'' away. This is not a new restriction just more likely to happen now
Consider yourself Exalted, and I agree. Combat ends if and ONLY if all Pile in moves (including future Pile In moves in future Initiative Steps), including the Pile In move at the end of Assault would leave nobody in B2B contact. Models in this scenario would need to be over 6" away from each other. Should such a situation like this arise, combat ends immediately, preventing slower models from getting a 3" move during their I step and another 3" move during end of Assault Pile In.
57035
Post by: jms40k
Murrdox wrote:Bacms wrote:
So to conclude Nowhere in the rulebook you are allowed to break out of close combat but not having models in b2b. When does the rulebook allows a unit engaged in combat to break out of combat? If at a initiative step units are more than 6 inches away from each other. Or you made the unit fall back or you destroy an enemy unit. So you have no permission to end the combat otherwise. Yes it means that sometimes units may not strike back but they will keep locked in combat.
By the way you could already break from close combat in 5th if you ended up more than 6'' away. This is not a new restriction just more likely to happen now
Consider yourself Exalted, and I agree. Combat ends if and ONLY if all Pile in moves (including future Pile In moves in future Initiative Steps), including the Pile In move at the end of Assault would leave nobody in B2B contact. Models in this scenario would need to be over 6" away from each other. Should such a situation like this arise, combat ends immediately, preventing slower models from getting a 3" move during their I step and another 3" move during end of Assault Pile In.
I don't know, except where it says that all remaining initiative steps are discarded and combat resolution takes place...
33774
Post by: tgf
Murrdox wrote:Bacms wrote:
So to conclude Nowhere in the rulebook you are allowed to break out of close combat but not having models in b2b. When does the rulebook allows a unit engaged in combat to break out of combat? If at a initiative step units are more than 6 inches away from each other. Or you made the unit fall back or you destroy an enemy unit. So you have no permission to end the combat otherwise. Yes it means that sometimes units may not strike back but they will keep locked in combat.
By the way you could already break from close combat in 5th if you ended up more than 6'' away. This is not a new restriction just more likely to happen now
Consider yourself Exalted, and I agree. Combat ends if and ONLY if all Pile in moves (including future Pile In moves in future Initiative Steps), including the Pile In move at the end of Assault would leave nobody in B2B contact. Models in this scenario would need to be over 6" away from each other. Should such a situation like this arise, combat ends immediately, preventing slower models from getting a 3" move during their I step and another 3" move during end of Assault Pile In.
Consensus does not make it correct, it just makes more of you wrong.
36241
Post by: Murrdox
tgf wrote:
Consensus does not make it correct, it just makes more of you wrong.
So many southerners say that about the Civil War! 
Seriously though, the line about "both players' pile in moves combined" does NOT say "both players' pile in moves during this initiative step" combined. But that is how you are reading it. If you read what the rule actually SAYS, (and I agree it could be phrased better) it says that during every Initiative Step, you figure out if all the pile-in moves for the rest of the combat are not going to bring anyone into B2B. If this is the case, then end combat without completing the rest of the initiative steps.
33774
Post by: tgf
you are correct but it is under the pile in iniative heading, the entire sequecne of events that is repeated for each iniative step. You do not pile in with models from other iniative steps. At the end of the iniative pile in the check for end of combat happens. There is no all other pile in figuring anywhere in the rules.
57035
Post by: jms40k
Murrdox wrote:tgf wrote:
Consensus does not make it correct, it just makes more of you wrong.
So many southerners say that about the Civil War!
Seriously though, the line about "both players' pile in moves combined" does NOT say "both players' pile in moves during this initiative step" combined. But that is how you are reading it. If you read what the rule actually SAYS, (and I agree it could be phrased better) it says that during every Initiative Step, you figure out if all the pile-in moves for the rest of the combat are not going to bring anyone into B2B. If this is the case, then end combat without completing the rest of the initiative steps.
So you are suggesting that we calculate how many models will die at each initiative step, and if that calculation works, and we disregard random happenstance, so that no model will be able to B2B for the entirety of the rest of combat, then the combat ends? Weird, because that means those models wouldn't have died and the combat would then continue....
Or, we can read the entire rule which says to discard all remaining initiative steps (and therefore future pile-in moves) and end combat.
Either way, this argument is going in circles. I suggest you talk it over with whomever you are going to be playing with and roll-off if you can't come to consensus.
36241
Post by: Murrdox
jms40k wrote:
So you are suggesting that we calculate how many models will die at each initiative step, and if that calculation works, and we disregard random happenstance, so that no model will be able to B2B for the entirety of the rest of combat, then the combat ends? Weird, because that means those models wouldn't have died and the combat would then continue....
Uhhh, no that's not what I'm suggesting at all. If casualties are taking place, obviously models are still engaged, and combat is raging on. There's no need to calculate how many models will be in B2B for the rest of combat. If there is a large gap in the combatants during an Initiative step though, you can quickly measure to see if they are far enough apart that all future Pile In moves will still bring nobody into B2B for the rest of the combat. If that is the case, combat ends.
In other words, You have models at Initiative 10 and 5 and 1. I have models at Initiative 2 and 1.
You go first with your Initiative 10 model, and kill enough of my Initiative 2 models that now nobody is in B2B. There are 4 inches between our models.
You go again with your Initiative 5 models. You try to pile in, but can't get in B2B. We measure future pile in moves though, and my Initiative 2 and 1 models WILL make it to B2B, so combat doesn't end. You Pile In 3" towards my models.
I go at Initiative 2. I Pile In with all my I2 models and attack. I kill enough of your models AGAIN so that nobody is in B2B. Our 5I and 2I models are 2 inches apart.
We both go simultaneously at I1. However, we've both buried our Powerfist units deep, and they're more than 3 inches away from the front lines, and can't get into B2B. Nothing happens. We test though, and our models are only 1 inch away at this point. We still have the Pile In move at the end of combat, so combat doesn't end.
We both Pile In 3" at the end of combat, and now everyone left is in B2B.
***
The alternative scenario is one proposed earlier. An Avatar charges a conga line of Grots, and kills 5 of them. When the Grots go at their Initiative, they are 10 inches away from combat. We can test and see how close they could get to each other. The Grots would move 3", and then 3" at the end of combat. The Avatar would move 3" at the end of combat. This would mean they'd still be an inch apart, so combat would end.
As you can see, this means things would need to be pretty far away to not pile in towards combat.
If we read the rule as you've interpreted it, my first example would have ended combat twice, and flies in the face of conventional wisdom about how the game works. It always has been extremely difficult in 40k or Fantasy for battles to simply "end" with no resolution. I find it highly unlikely they would write the rules in such a way to make that such a relatively easy thing to happen.
I agree the rule could be worded better, but I think you're interpreting it wrong.
11268
Post by: nosferatu1001
Right, please stop ignoring context
You are taking a rule that takes place AT AN INIT STEP and applying it to every I step.
That breaks the rules
Page 22 tells you to work through the steps. The more specific rule states that, IF no models are in b2b when you complete the I STEP pile in, combat ends *and remaining I steps are lost*
For the anti-side, you are now forced to ignore 2 rules:
1) The rule that states I step pile ins are done, you know, at each I step. THat heading is a clue.
2) That remaining I steps are lost if models are no longer in B2B
Feel free to play this the old 5th edition way, but that is a house rule.
36241
Post by: Murrdox
nosferatu1001 wrote:Right, please stop ignoring context
You are taking a rule that takes place AT AN INIT STEP and applying it to every I step.
That breaks the rules
No, I'm simply interpreting that the word "combined" in the phrase "If both players' Pile In moves combined" means both players Pile In moves combined for the entire combat.
You are interpreting "both players' Pile In moves combined" to be "both players Pile In moves for this initiative step".
Note that using your interpretation, the word "combined" isn't necessary. The rule could simply read "both players' pile in moves". The word "combined" must be there with a purpose, and I think it is.
Personally, I think the word "combined" lends itself well to my interpretation. All Pile In moves combined by both players for the whole combat. Additionally, the presence of the word "combined" makes no sense in the context of an Initiative Step with only one player acting. If you interpret the rule my way, then the word "combined" does make sense. On top of that, I think it's been shown by both myself and others that less weird combat scenarios emerge when you interpret the rule this way.
You test for it every Initiative Step, but each time you test for it, you take the entirety of the remaining Pile In moves (combined!) into account.
57035
Post by: jms40k
...combined just means to add together both player's pile-in moves for that initiative step. Sure, it's a bit redundant, but as this is a paragraph under "Initiative Step Pile-In" interpreting it to mean every other initiative step's pile-in as well is a huge stretch.
29552
Post by: god.ra
nosferatu1001 wrote:Right, please stop ignoring context
You are taking a rule that takes place AT AN INIT STEP and applying it to every I step.
That breaks the rules
Page 22 tells you to work through the steps. The more specific rule states that, IF no models are in b2b when you complete the I STEP pile in, combat ends *and remaining I steps are lost*
For the anti-side, you are now forced to ignore 2 rules:
1) The rule that states I step pile ins are done, you know, at each I step. THat heading is a clue.
2) That remaining I steps are lost if models are no longer in B2B
Feel free to play this the old 5th edition way, but that is a house rule.
This discussions will only ends up when we get clarification from GW (as we where going about KFF last year btw I was right about it ), anyway, called as you want, but I am going to play as I stated previously, just to avoid this kind of situations:
"Squad A with I5, gets charged by squad B with I3 with attached Character I4.
Now, we start in 2b2, you go first I5, killing front raw, so we are not in b2b, then is I4 character, moving 3" but not enough to get him in to 2b2 ( was at the back of the squad) now I wont end up the round of CC because squad B models are just 1" away from squad A and they must have a go at I3.
The book stated that this kind of occasion is very unlikely! And only way to be like that (unlikely!) is when "that’s more than 6".... imagine how many times you would have to end up the CC, just because your Champ with higher I, is stuck in middle of the squad or at the end … that would be nonsense non sense.
Also let use your example in mult units combat:
Squad A I5
Squad B1 I3 with champion I4
Squad B2 I3
So Squad A gets charged by squad B1 and B2
I5 goes first, takes 1st raw from squad B1, then goes I4, he cant get into b2b (was at the back of the squd)…. then you would have to end the combat due to “all remaining initiative steps are lost” …. So what about squad B2 still being in 2b2 with Squad A???? Non sense
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Post by: tgf
man you guys are persistant about taking an example where both sides are in the same iniative and holding it up as a rule. Its dilusional and counter to every other thing writen.
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Post by: winterman
So Squad A gets charged by squad B1 and B2
I5 goes first, takes 1st raw from squad B1, then goes I4, he cant get into b2b (was at the back of the squd)…. then you would have to end the combat due to “all remaining initiative steps are lost” …. So what about squad B2 still being in 2b2 with Squad A???? Non sense
The I4 guy would still get to attack as long as there was any friendly model (from either B1 or B2) still in base to base with enemy A and he was within 2" of them. Please read the who can fight section for details.
This 'glitch' only occurs when after a pile in at a particular initiative stepthere's NO friendlies in base to base. I think people are really getting confused here and thinking you need a model at that lower I in base to base to attack. That is not the case at all.
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Post by: Crazyterran
god.ra wrote:Crazyterran wrote:
THE 5TH PARAGRAPH DOWN, THE LAST TWO SENTENCES:
"If both players' Pile in Moves" those who are piling in at the INITIATIVE 4 STEP "combined would be insufficient to bring any combatants back together, the assault comes to an end. All remaining Initiative steps are lost - work out the assault result as described on page 26."
Crazyterran was I offending you? Don’t think so, I demand apologises ….
That'll be a cold day in hell, since you are still arguing an incorrect argument.
I'm sorry if it offends your senses that the Orks would lose their attacks because they charged like an idiot, but, that's how it goes.
Each Initiative Step is completely separate from another. If your initiative is equal to the current initiative step, ONLY THEN do you get to move. The part in parentheses is not a rule, it's trying to clarify (unfortunately, it failed.) So, if the Captain kills a sufficient number of Orks to bring any other marine more than 3" away, even after the charge, the combat is over, and combat resolution occurs, as state on page 23.
Page 23 to Page 26, paragraph 4, is all about ONE initiative step. It's not about the combat as a whole, it details how to fight each initiative step. So, if Assault Marines who Hammer of wrath'd managed to kill off enough Orks that they wouldn't beable to reach base to base in the I4 step, the combat ends and the Assault Marines get their clock cleaned by shooting / a charge next turn.
The parentheses are about that, if Eldar and Marines are fighting, as in the Diagram, that if both people move 3" forward (since both fight at I4) and it's still insufficient (and the book is right, 6" towards eachother is going to be rare, since both are permitted to move at this initiative step) the combat ends. However, in your example, Marines are fighting Orks. Orks are at I 2 / 3. The Marines are I 4 / 5.
Captain swings, and manages to kill off 5 Orks. These 5 Orks must come from the closest to the Captain, including base to base.
The Marines make their Pile in Move, and there is no Orks within 3". If there are no Orks within 3", you follow the 6th Paragraph on page 23, and the last sentence states that, "All remaining initiative steps are lost". Since the Marines, during the initiative 4 step, could not reach any enemies, and no models are in Base to Base, the combat is over.
What you all seem to be doing is taking something in parentheses, which are not part of the official rules, and exploding it to epic proportions.
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Post by: Happyjew
Wow OK, I think we need to take a break from this topic and calm down.
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Post by: solkan
jms40k wrote:...combined just means to add together both player's pile-in moves for that initiative step. Sure, it's a bit redundant, but as this is a paragraph under "Initiative Step Pile-In" interpreting it to mean every other initiative step's pile-in as well is a huge stretch.
"combined" isn't redundant for the case it's intended for.
You're starting the I4 initiative step and you have Green Marine A five inches away from his enemy, Blue Marine B. A & B can't get into base contact using their own pile in moves.
A tries to pile in 3", he can't reach B. B tries to pile in 3", he can't reach A. But only by combining their pile in moves do A & B make contact.
It's the same mess that measuring pile in moves has always been--You can't move if you can't make it, so you can't pile in to empty ground, but you can pile in to where your opponent can meet you.
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Post by: nosferatu1001
Murrdox wrote:nosferatu1001 wrote:Right, please stop ignoring context
You are taking a rule that takes place AT AN INIT STEP and applying it to every I step.
That breaks the rules
No, I'm simply interpreting that the word "combined" in the phrase "If both players' Pile In moves combined" means both players Pile In moves combined for the entire combat.
....with absolutely no rules justification whatsoever to do so. The CONTEXT of the ENTIRE RULE is that initiative step
Think about it for a minute: the phrase " Start of Initiative Step Pile In" means you are only considering that init step. Just stop, and read what that rule is telling you - is it saying "start of every initiaitve step pile in that combat"? No. It is a phrase about a singular, discrete step.
Murrdox wrote:You are interpreting "both players' Pile In moves combined" to be "both players Pile In moves for this initiative step".
Yes, because that is what the heading tells us the time-context of the entire rule is - that initiative step.
Murrdox wrote:Note that using your interpretation, the word "combined" isn't necessary. The rule could simply read "both players' pile in moves". The word "combined" must be there with a purpose, and I think it is.
If you both have I4 models to move, the total pile in is the combined pile in of each player. Note that this gives a purpose to the word combined without requiring rule-less leaps such as ignoring the context of the entire rule.
Murrdox wrote:Personally, I think the word "combined" lends itself well to my interpretation. All Pile In moves combined by both players for the whole combat.
No, because your interpretation requires you to ignore the rules. Which is a very, very bad argument.
Murrdox wrote: Additionally, the presence of the word "combined" makes no sense in the context of an Initiative Step with only one player acting.
The rules are written to apply generally. They make sense a lot of the time, and still makes sense when only one player is an active participant - the combined pile in is 3" + 0' in that case.
Murrdox wrote:If you interpret the rule my way, then the word "combined" does make sense. On top of that, I think it's been shown by both myself and others that less weird combat scenarios emerge when you interpret the rule this way.
It makes sense my way, which has the benefit of also following the rules as a whole.
As for "less weird" - entirely, 100% irrelevant. These situations are also quite rare, either way.
Murrdox wrote:You test for it every Initiative Step, but each time you test for it, you take the entirety of the remaining Pile In moves (combined!) into account.
Except you CANNOT DO THAT, as you DONT KNOW HOW COMBAT WILL WORK OUT. It is literally impossible for you to know how the rest of the I steps will go, because the game is full of random chance.
I could kill 10 models, or none
So please, for once - stop ignoring rules.
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Post by: AgeOfEgos
Crazyterran wrote:
Captain swings, and manages to kill off 5 Orks. These 5 Orks must come from the closest to the Captain, including base to base.
The Marines make their Pile in Move, and there is no Orks within 3". If there are no Orks within 3", you follow the 6th Paragraph on page 23, and the last sentence states that, "All remaining initiative steps are lost". Since the Marines, during the initiative 4 step, could not reach any enemies, and no models are in Base to Base, the combat is over.
What you all seem to be doing is taking something in parentheses, which are not part of the official rules, and exploding it to epic proportions.
It states "all remaining initiative steps are lost---work out the assault result as described on page 26". So in your scenario, the Orks would need to make a test at a -5---they are fearless, so automatically pass. Then you do the End of Combat Pile in (based on whomever's turn it is). So that's another 3" for the SM and another 3" for the Orks, which would lock them in combat.
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Post by: Crazyterran
solkan wrote:jms40k wrote:...combined just means to add together both player's pile-in moves for that initiative step. Sure, it's a bit redundant, but as this is a paragraph under "Initiative Step Pile-In" interpreting it to mean every other initiative step's pile-in as well is a huge stretch.
"combined" isn't redundant for the case it's intended for.
You're starting the I4 initiative step and you have Green Marine A five inches away from his enemy, Blue Marine B. A & B can't get into base contact using their own pile in moves.
A tries to pile in 3", he can't reach B. B tries to pile in 3", he can't reach A. But only by combining their pile in moves do A & B make contact.
It's the same mess that measuring pile in moves has always been--You can't move if you can't make it, so you can't pile in to empty ground, but you can pile in to where your opponent can meet you.
Such is the case for Marines, who are at the same initiative.
For things with differing initiative, like, Orks and Marines - only the Marines would get to pile in 3" at the Initiative 4 Step. If the marines can not make it the 3" into base to base with any of the orks, the combat is over.
AgeOfEgos wrote:Crazyterran wrote:
Captain swings, and manages to kill off 5 Orks. These 5 Orks must come from the closest to the Captain, including base to base.
The Marines make their Pile in Move, and there is no Orks within 3". If there are no Orks within 3", you follow the 6th Paragraph on page 23, and the last sentence states that, "All remaining initiative steps are lost". Since the Marines, during the initiative 4 step, could not reach any enemies, and no models are in Base to Base, the combat is over.
What you all seem to be doing is taking something in parentheses, which are not part of the official rules, and exploding it to epic proportions.
It states "all remaining initiative steps are lost---work out the assault result as described on page 26". So in your scenario, the Orks would need to make a test at a -5---they are fearless, so automatically pass. Then you do the End of Combat Pile in (based on whomever's turn it is). So that's another 3" for the SM and another 3" for the Orks, which would lock them in combat.
Yes, that's right. The Orks would not get to make any attacks back, but both of them would move together if the Orks passed their leadership test (which they would, if they have more than 10 boys left)
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Post by: Bacms
I am not saying I am right or wrong. I am trying to discuss something for which my interpretation is different from yours. You are saying you are right I am saying that the way it is written it is not clear and I have a different interpretation. That is what YMDC is for. The problem I have with your interpretation is that it says that pile in moves that place at the beginning of the turn, not at the end. So a SM squad kills orks and it is no longer in b2b, you have to play the next initiative step always. So the combat does not end if at the end of the turn you are no longer in base contact. There is no place in the rules that allows you to do this even if you assume that both players pile is only referring to the current initiative step.
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Post by: god.ra
So how you work out his:
So this is according to you allowed ???
Squad A I5
Squad B1 I3 with champion I4
Squad B2 I3
So Squad A gets charged by squad B1 and B2
I5 goes first, takes 1st raw from squad B1, then goes I4, he cant get into b2b (was at the back of the squad too far)…. then you would have to end the combat due to “all remaining initiative steps are lost” …. So what about squad B2 still being in 2b2 with Squad A????
Anyway, I am taking break from this, getting offended by some Canadians.
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Post by: Crazyterran
god.ra wrote:So how you work out his:
So this is according to you allowed ???
Squad A I5
Squad B1 I3 with champion I4
Squad B2 I3
So Squad A gets charged by squad B1 and B2
I5 goes first, takes 1st raw from squad B1, then goes I4, he cant get into b2b (was at the back of the squad too far)…. then you would have to end the combat due to “all remaining initiative steps are lost” …. So what about squad B2 still being in 2b2 with Squad A????
Combat against Squad B1 would end. B2 would still get to attack, but B1 would not get to make a pile in at the I3 step, or make any further attacks. B2 would be allowed to swing back.
I'm sorry if you changed the rules half way through the argument, but you aren't allowed to do that in any form of debate. But this one post will humor you.
Bacms wrote:I am not saying I am right or wrong. I am trying to discuss something for which my interpretation is different from yours. You are saying you are right I am saying that the way it is written it is not clear and I have a different interpretation. That is what YMDC is for. The problem I have with your interpretation is that it says that pile in moves that place at the beginning of the turn, not at the end. So a SM squad kills orks and it is no longer in b2b, you have to play the next initiative step always. So the combat does not end if at the end of the turn you are no longer in base contact. There is no place in the rules that allows you to do this even if you assume that both players pile is only referring to the current initiative step.
If the Marine Captain, at I5, kills enough orks that the Marines at I4, move 3" and can not get into base to base, the combat is over.
If the marines at I4 make enough kills, assuming they make it in, that the Nob (if he has no Klaw) at I3 can not make it into Base to Base, the combat is over.
If the (Clawless) Nob at I3 kills enough Marines that his boys can't make it 3" at the I2 step to make it into base to base with any Marines, the combat is over.
If, at the I1 Step, the boys crumped enough Marines that the Klaw nob, at I1, can't move 3" and make it into base to base (or within 2" of a model in Base to base), the combat is over
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Post by: nosferatu1001
Bacms wrote:I am not saying I am right or wrong. I am trying to discuss something for which my interpretation is different from yours. You are saying you are right I am saying that the way it is written it is not clear and I have a different interpretation. That is what YMDC is for. The problem I have with your interpretation is that it says that pile in moves that place at the beginning of the turn, not at the end. So a SM squad kills orks and it is no longer in b2b, you have to play the next initiative step always. So the combat does not end if at the end of the turn you are no longer in base contact. There is no place in the rules that allows you to do this even if you assume that both players pile is only referring to the current initiative step.
It is very clear, when you actually read the rule in queston and not your changed version of it.
What you are doing is taking a parenthetical, which literally explains / expounds on a concept but cannot change it, and ignoring the word "Initiative step" and assuming they really meant "all init steps for the entire combat, even though you cannot possibly do that because you dont actually know what models have been removed from b2b yet"
Where does it say that Pile In occurs at the start of the turn? It says that pile in occurs at each I step, and then again at the end of combat, if it is ongoing. Page and parag for you saying otherwise, as per the tenets of this forum
You are also misunderstanding the side that has read the rules - you dont end at the point the marines have killed the Orks. You move to the I2 (for example) step, attempt pile in and THEN and ONLY THEN if you still cannot make b2b combat ends. Exactly as the rule tells you.
Seriously - you are ignoring the rule that tells you the remaining I steps are lost. You are ignoring the rule that state the pile in is for THE initiaitive step, not ALL init steps. If you didnt do all that the rule would be a lot clearer!
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Post by: fixxxer76
I can see an argument for both sides as it is very curious why they would include the part "{thats more than 6' - very unlikely)" This could be referring to A. Assuming both sides will have the same initiative value hence the 6 inches, Or B. Assuming that each side regardless of initiative value will be able to pile in again equalling the 6 inches. I don't know for sure but I think we can all agree that one of the most important parts of the game has been skewed by the people who created it. I am disappointed
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Post by: Murrdox
nosferatu1001 wrote:
Except you CANNOT DO THAT, as you DONT KNOW HOW COMBAT WILL WORK OUT. It is literally impossible for you to know how the rest of the I steps will go, because the game is full of random chance.
I could kill 10 models, or none
So please, for once - stop ignoring rules.
Ya know, this is "You Make Da Call". I'm engaging in a discussion about how the rules are interpreted. I've made my points, I understand your points. I think my way makes more "sense" and may be how the rule is meant to be interpreted. Why don't you actually take part in the discussion instead of simply saying "I'm wrong" and "stop ignoring the rules". I'm not ignoring the rules. I'm posting an interpretation to what is obviously a strange rule as written and to understand. It's not like I'm claiming something outrageous like "Twin Linked Weapons can re-roll infinitely until they hit"
Also, if you've read my previous post, I've said before that there is no need to know "how combat will work out" from a casualty standpoint. The only time you need to know how the rest of the Initiatives steps will go is if nobody is in B2B to begin with. During your Initiative step, if you Pile in and don't reach your opponent, you simply do a quick measure to determine if ANYONE will EVER get into B2B with their pile in moves for the rest of combat. If that answer is "no" then combat ends. You don't spend the rest of combat simply making pile-in moves towards each other with nothing happening.
But if something WILL happen eventually in the next Initiative step or down the line, then you make your pile in move and continue.
I'll be happy to eat crow when / if a FAQ or errata comes out that says this is wrong. But with the examples posted so far, I think the method that you're interpreting leads to Assaults generally not making sense a good portion of the time, and I don't think it's a great leap in logic from there to question whether or not your interpretation is actually how things are supposed to go.
I haven't played a game of 6th yet, but when I do and if my method is totally wonky and doesn't work, I'll be sure to say so.
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Post by: Crazyterran
fixxxer76 wrote: I can see an argument for both sides as it is very curious why they would include the part "{thats more than 6' - very unlikely)" This could be referring to A. Assuming both sides will have the same initiative value hence the 6 inches, Or B. Assuming that each side regardless of initiative value will be able to pile in again equalling the 6 inches. I don't know for sure but I think we can all agree that one of the most important parts of the game has been skewed by the people who created it. I am disappointed
Because it's refering to something that involves both combatants moving in at the same initiative. Eldar and Marines. The player whose turn it is moves in first (say, marines) and the Eldar, and if both of their 3" moves (so they are 7" apart) means that they can not reach Base to base, the combat ends.
Since both of them move at the same initiative step, it requires them to be more than 6" apart for them to end the combat.
However, at differing Initiative levels, such as Orks and Marines, if the Marines, in their pile in move, can not make it the 3" to an Ork, the combat would end. Since, the only player allowed to pile in move is the Space Marine player, the Ork Player can not move to try to rectify this. And, since the Marines can't make it 3" to the Orks, the combat ends.
The Orks then make a Leadership test. If they pass (they will) they both move 3" together, and continue combat during the next assault phase.
Murrdox wrote:nosferatu1001 wrote:
Except you CANNOT DO THAT, as you DONT KNOW HOW COMBAT WILL WORK OUT. It is literally impossible for you to know how the rest of the I steps will go, because the game is full of random chance.
I could kill 10 models, or none
So please, for once - stop ignoring rules.
Ya know, this is "You Make Da Call". I'm engaging in a discussion about how the rules are interpreted. I've made my points, I understand your points. I think my way makes more "sense" and may be how the rule is meant to be interpreted. Why don't you actually take part in the discussion instead of simply saying "I'm wrong" and "stop ignoring the rules". I'm not ignoring the rules. I'm posting an interpretation to what is obviously a strange rule as written and to understand. It's not like I'm claiming something outrageous like "Twin Linked Weapons can re-roll infinitely until they hit"
Also, if you've read my previous post, I've said before that there is no need to know "how combat will work out" from a casualty standpoint. The only time you need to know how the rest of the Initiatives steps will go is if nobody is in B2B to begin with. During your Initiative step, if you Pile in and don't reach your opponent, you simply do a quick measure to determine if ANYONE will EVER get into B2B with their pile in moves for the rest of combat. If that answer is "no" then combat ends. You don't spend the rest of combat simply making pile-in moves towards each other with nothing happening.
But if something WILL happen eventually in the next Initiative step or down the line, then you make your pile in move and continue.
I'll be happy to eat crow when / if a FAQ or errata comes out that says this is wrong. But with the examples posted so far, I think the method that you're interpreting leads to Assaults generally not making sense a good portion of the time, and I don't think it's a great leap in logic from there to question whether or not your interpretation is actually how things are supposed to go.
I haven't played a game of 6th yet, but when I do and if my method is totally wonky and doesn't work, I'll be sure to say so.
You are making a giant leap in logic because you are assuming any Initiative step other than the one you are currently in matters during the combat.
If, at I4, the marines can not move into base to base, or to within 2" of someone who is, the combat ends.
Each player only gets to make 1 Pile in move during the combat during the 10 initiative steps. The Space Marines are at I4, their captain at I5. The Ork Nob at I3, the Boyz at I2.
If, at any Initiative step where combatants get to make a pile in move, they can not reach (So, the captain killed enough Orks that the Marines can't make it into Base to base by moving 3") the combat ends, and the combat resolution part begins.
It explicitly states on page 23 that if nobody is in base to base after the pile in move at an initiative step, the combat ends.
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Post by: fixxxer76
Crazy, the way its written why cant we assume that initiative steps are only lost and combat would be over in the situation where a pile in involves both sides only? . I don't see why they would specifically write the blurb about 6 inches otherwise.
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Post by: god.ra
Crazyterran wrote:god.ra wrote:So how you work out his:
So this is according to you allowed ???
Squad A I5
Squad B1 I3 with champion I4
Squad B2 I3
So Squad A gets charged by squad B1 and B2
I5 goes first, takes 1st raw from squad B1, then goes I4, he cant get into b2b (was at the back of the squad too far)…. then you would have to end the combat due to “all remaining initiative steps are lost” …. So what about squad B2 still being in 2b2 with Squad A????
Combat against Squad B1 would end. B2 would still get to attack, but B1 would not get to make a pile in at the I3 step, or make any further attacks. B2 would be allowed to swing back.
I'm sorry if you changed the rules half way through the argument, but you aren't allowed to do that in any form of debate. But this one post will humor you.
hehe unfortunately it says .... "all remaining initiative steps are lost, work out the assault results “
Need to be FAQed, truly I was expecting more from GW especially after releasing 8th edition WFB.
Conclusions:
I don’t have to be born in UK to live in UK
I'll play the way I think is the best for the game flow, not as per interpretation word by word….
I'am not changing rules half way through … the point with this multi units example is that they way you read this rule is not playable. Therefore you could consider other peoples view on this rule.
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Post by: Bacms
nosferatu1001 wrote:
It is very clear, when you actually read the rule in queston and not your changed version of it.
What you are doing is taking a parenthetical, which literally explains / expounds on a concept but cannot change it, and ignoring the word "Initiative step" and assuming they really meant "all init steps for the entire combat, even though you cannot possibly do that because you dont actually know what models have been removed from b2b yet"
Again I quoted everything a few posts ago sorry for not doing it again. But I am not assuming anything more you are assuming, it says "If both player's Pile In moves would be insufficient to bring any combatants back together" There is nothing in this sentence that says it is at this initiative step. You are assuming that. Same page it says (that's more than 6'' - very unlikely) since the sentence does not make any mention to being specific to only one step, I am interpreting it as RAW and need to be more than 6 inches away.
nosferatu1001 wrote:
Where does it say that Pile In occurs at the start of the turn? It says that pile in occurs at each I step, and then again at the end of combat, if it is ongoing. Page and parag for you saying otherwise, as per the tenets of this forum
Page 23, Start of Initiative step pile in, only after that you do the rest of the things on your initiative step.
nosferatu1001 wrote:
You are also misunderstanding the side that has read the rules - you dont end at the point the marines have killed the Orks. You move to the I2 (for example) step, attempt pile in and THEN and ONLY THEN if you still cannot make b2b combat ends. Exactly as the rule tells you.
Seriously - you are ignoring the rule that tells you the remaining I steps are lost. You are ignoring the rule that state the pile in is for THE initiaitive step, not ALL init steps. If you didnt do all that the rule would be a lot clearer!
I agree with you at initiative 2 I have to try and recover b2b we agree. The disagreement is that "both players pile in moves (ie 6inches) can still bring us together so combat does not end. Anyway it still does not mean you are no longer locked in combat you still have to go and test.your leadership and fail that. Otherwise you just pile in 6 inches.
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Post by: Crazyterran
fixxxer76 wrote:Crazy, the way its written why cant we assume that initiative steps are only lost and combat would be over in the situation where a pile in involves both sides only? . I don't see why they would specifically write the blurb about 6 inches otherwise.
Because the sentence before that refers to how the controlling player piles in first. And that only matters if they both get to move at that initiative step. And, the very last sentence of that paragraph EXPLICITLY states, that, if no models are in base contact after the pile in move in that initiative step, the combat ends.
And the Paragraphs before that outline that only models with the initiative to move at that Initiative step (4, in our case) may move. So, the Space Marines are the only ones permitted to move. If they can not, somehow, make it the 3" forward into base to base, the combat is over.
However, if the marines are fighting Eldar, they are both going at the same Initiative. Therefore, they both move at the same initiative 4 step, and they in total go 6" towards each other.
Trust me, this will suck balls against Dark Eldar Wyches.
However, the situations that would cause this are exceedingly rare. It'll require terrible movement and positioning on both players parts. the chances of enough people being killed in one round, that the next initiative step, the marines can't make it the 3" after whomever's charge, the combat would end at the I4 step.
god.ra wrote:Crazyterran wrote:god.ra wrote:So how you work out his:
So this is according to you allowed ???
Squad A I5
Squad B1 I3 with champion I4
Squad B2 I3
So Squad A gets charged by squad B1 and B2
I5 goes first, takes 1st raw from squad B1, then goes I4, he cant get into b2b (was at the back of the squad too far)…. then you would have to end the combat due to “all remaining initiative steps are lost” …. So what about squad B2 still being in 2b2 with Squad A????
Combat against Squad B1 would end. B2 would still get to attack, but B1 would not get to make a pile in at the I3 step, or make any further attacks. B2 would be allowed to swing back.
I'm sorry if you changed the rules half way through the argument, but you aren't allowed to do that in any form of debate. But this one post will humor you.
hehe unfortunately it says .... "all remaining initiative steps are lost, work out the assault results “
Need to be FAQed, truly I was expecting more from GW especially after releasing 8th edition WFB.
Conclusions:
I don’t have to be born in UK to live in UK
I'll play the way I think is the best for the game flow, not as per interpretation word by word….
I'am not changing rules half way through … the point with this multi units example is that they way you read this rule is not playable. Therefore you could consider other peoples view on this rule.
It doesn't need to be FAQ'd. Maybe for multiple combats it's more unclear, but your original example did not entail MULTIPLE combats. you CHANGED it half way through. As such, you changed the rules of the conversation half way through. And that, generally means you are trying to twist things to suit your own purposes, to make it effect SINGLE combats. Which is an intellectual fallacy, and usually indicates one loses the debate. That's how it goes.
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Post by: DevianID
Squad A I5
Squad B1 I3 with champion I4
Squad B2 I3
It is clear that in your example the combat is not over because at init 4 there are models in base contact--not init 4 models but that doesnt matter. The init 4 guy is too far to swing himself, but combat ends early only if no models from either side are in combat.
At first I thought this was glitchy, but since combat ends and then another pile in happens after combat resolution, it makes a lot more sense.
If you incorrectly claim that combat does not end when during an init step no models are in base contact, then the models that are not in base lose their attacks but still move forward to let their opponents hit them for free. This is not supported. It makes more sense that combat ends for that round, both sides pile in at the end, and next round (with both sides much closer) combat begins from the top again.
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Post by: Crazyterran
DevianID wrote:Squad A I5
Squad B1 I3 with champion I4
Squad B2 I3
It is clear that in your example the combat is not over because at init 4 there are models in base contact--not init 4 models but that doesnt matter. The init 4 guy is too far to swing himself, but combat ends early only if no models from either side are in combat.
At first I thought this was glitchy, but since combat ends and then another pile in happens after combat resolution, it makes a lot more sense.
If you incorrectly claim that combat does not end when during an init step no models are in base contact, then the models that are not in base lose their attacks but still move forward to let their opponents hit them for free. This is not supported. It makes more sense that combat ends for that round, both sides pile in at the end, and next round (with both sides much closer) combat begins from the top again.
This, i was incorrect about the multiple combats part. After arguing Single Combats for a day and a half, it seems it messed me up a bit.
The rest of this is correct. In a single combat, if after any initiative step where models make a pile in move (so, 4) and no models are in base to base, the combat is over. The Orks don't then get to move 3" up and smack the Marines around for free because their captain happened to roll well. It doesn't work like that.
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Post by: god.ra
Crazyterran wrote:fixxxer76 wrote:Crazy, the way its written why cant we assume that initiative steps are only lost and combat would be over in the situation where a pile in involves both sides only? . I don't see why they would specifically write the blurb about 6 inches otherwise.
It doesn't need to be FAQ'd. Maybe for multiple combats it's more unclear, but your original example did not entail MULTIPLE combats. you CHANGED it half way through. As such, you changed the rules of the conversation half way through. And that, generally means you are trying to twist things to suit your own purposes, to make it effect SINGLE combats. Which is an intellectual fallacy, and usually indicates one loses the debate. That's how it goes.
… the point with this multi units example is that they way you read this rule is not playable.
So if this rule (the way you read) does create confusions for multi units combat (as you admitted), therefore is not valid for my 1st example as there is only 1 RULE (the same) you have to use in both examples. Anyway, enough of this for today, I'm going to bed.
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Post by: AgeOfEgos
I think it helps clear confusion if you remember--the assault ends---but combat resolution must still occur.
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Post by: Bacms
It needs to be FAQ whoever is saying otherwise is basically ignoring the problem. We wouldn't be discussing it if the rules was clear.
It also does not need to involve multicharge. Squad of SM charges a unit with a nob with PK and boyz. Kill all the boyz at initiative 4 but only makes one wound on the nobz. The nobz is still in b2b but the boyz no longer are. At initiative 3 according to 3'' rule combat would end even if the nob at initiative 1 is still in b2b. If this is the case this is poor game design in my opinion.
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Post by: AgeOfEgos
Bacms wrote:It needs to be FAQ whoever is saying otherwise is basically ignoring the problem. We wouldn't be discussing it if the rules was clear.
It also does not need to involve multicharge. Squad of SM charges a unit with a nob with PK and boyz. Kill all the boyz at initiative 4 but only makes one wound on the nobz. The nobz is still in b2b but the boyz no longer are. At initiative 3 according to 3'' rule combat would end even if the nob at initiative 1 is still in b2b. If this is the case this is poor game design in my opinion.
I'm probably missing something but, I would assume the combat goes;
I4 Space Marines Charge a unit of 5 boyz led by a Nob
I10 step (nothing)
I9 step (nothing)
I8 step (nothing)
I7 step (nothing)
I6 step (nothing)
I5 step (nothing)
I4 step---Any Space Marine not in base to base, immediately makes a 3" Pile In Move to advance to base to base. If he can't, he tries to move within 2" of another Space Marine.
I4 Attacks--resolve hits/wounds/saves---as all models are in base to base with this initiative step, the owning player (orks) may declare how he will allocate hits. He puts all 5 on the Boyz, fails all 5, leaving a lone Nob.
I3 step (nothing)
I2 step (nothing)
I1 step---As the Nob is already in base to base, he does not need to make a Pile In Move.
I1 Attacks---He hits and kills two marines. The Marine player only has two marines in base to base with the Nob, therefore they must die first.
Combat Resolution
The Ork player makes a great roll and the Nob passes Morale. Now both units make an additional 3" Pile In, starting with the player whose turn it is. The SM player moves his remaining marines 3", attempting to base to base the Nob.
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Post by: Crazyterran
god.ra wrote:Crazyterran wrote:fixxxer76 wrote:Crazy, the way its written why cant we assume that initiative steps are only lost and combat would be over in the situation where a pile in involves both sides only? . I don't see why they would specifically write the blurb about 6 inches otherwise.
It doesn't need to be FAQ'd. Maybe for multiple combats it's more unclear, but your original example did not entail MULTIPLE combats. you CHANGED it half way through. As such, you changed the rules of the conversation half way through. And that, generally means you are trying to twist things to suit your own purposes, to make it effect SINGLE combats. Which is an intellectual fallacy, and usually indicates one loses the debate. That's how it goes.
… the point with this multi units example is that they way you read this rule is not playable.
So if this rule (the way you read) does create confusions for multi units combat (as you admitted), therefore is not valid for my 1st example as there is only 1 RULE (the same) you have to use in both examples. Anyway, enough of this for today, I'm going to bed.
Single Assaults are seperate. There's even a seperate subsection for multiple and single assaults.
Single Assaults are "If no models are in BtB after any initiative step where Pile In moves are made, the combat ends, and combat resolution occurs."
Multiple Assaults are the same, but, you take all units into account before doing this. So if the marines manage to, by some miracle, kill all models in base to base in a multi assault, and your nob (or what have you) can't make it into base to base, the combat would end. However, this happening is even lower than in a single assault, so...
So if either of the two squads (Squads B and C) are in Base to Base with Squad A, the combat continues. However, if enough of squads B and C are killed that, on the following initiative step, nobody can reach base to base (and neither squads are in base to base with squad A) the combat would end.
Example:
Squad A is a Marine Squad.
Squads B and C are Ork Mobs.
On the charge, the Marine Squad (for whatever reason) decides to multi assault both Squads B and C. Through very good rolling and a lot of luck, they manage to kill enough orks to no longer be in base to base with either.
The following Initiative step, I3, has the Ork player moving his non-Power Klaw'd nob forward. However, since he's playing a marine player, he kept the nob in the back, to reduce the chances of it being killed via shooting. He can not make it into base to base with any of the marines, and neither squad is in base to base. The combat ends at this point, and combat resolution occurs.
However, if either Squads B and C still have a model in base to base, regardless of if the nob can make it, the combat would continue to the Initiative 2 step, where the Ork Boyz get to pile in. If these are somehow not close enough (4" away) the combat ends, and combat resolution occurs.
Remember, Furious Charge no longer grants Initiative, so an Ork would never go at the same time as a Space Marine.
So yes, if either squad in a multi assault is still in base to base with the Marines, both squads would get to pile in.
Your original example, dealing with a single assault, if the Marine Captain (I5) killed enough Orks that, there are no orks within 3" of the basic Marines (I4), the combat would end and combat resolution would occur. The Space Marines would never lose their attacks, since they go faster than the Orks. If they can not make it into base to base, and no models are in base to base, the combat immediately ends and Combat Resolution occurs.
Bacms wrote:It needs to be FAQ whoever is saying otherwise is basically ignoring the problem. We wouldn't be discussing it if the rules was clear.
It also does not need to involve multicharge. Squad of SM charges a unit with a nob with PK and boyz. Kill all the boyz at initiative 4 but only makes one wound on the nobz. The nobz is still in b2b but the boyz no longer are. At initiative 3 according to 3'' rule combat would end even if the nob at initiative 1 is still in b2b. If this is the case this is poor game design in my opinion.
If all the boys are dead, they wouldn't be around, and as such, their initiative step is skipped, since they are all dead. If none of the Ork Boys (assuming there are some left) can make it to within 2 inches of the nob, or into base to base, they move as close to the nob as they can. The nob would get to make his strikes still, since he is in base to base.
The "Combat ends at the initiative X step" only occurs if no members of either party is in base to base after the initiative steps pile in move. So if a captain killed enough Orks that he's not in base to base, and none of the other marines (who move at the initiative 4 step) are, and after the marines 3" pile in move, nobody is STILL in base to base (including nobs, etc.) the combat is over.
So, what it requires is:
At any initiative step, anyone is more than 3" (6" if both of them share the same initiative) away from each other, and nobody is in base to base, the combat is over, and resolution occurs.
If any models are in base to base, the combat continues. If the boyz (in your example) can not make it into base to base or within 2" of the nob, they get as close to the nob as they can, and then their initiative step ends.
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Post by: nosferatu1001
Bacms wrote:Again I quoted everything a few posts ago sorry for not doing it again. But I am not assuming anything more you are assuming, it says "If both player's Pile In moves would be insufficient to bring any combatants back together" There is nothing in this sentence that says it is at this initiative step. You are assuming that. Same page it says (that's more than 6'' - very unlikely) since the sentence does not make any mention to being specific to only one step, I am interpreting it as RAW and need to be more than 6 inches away.
"Start of Initiative Step Pile In"
Does this say "Start of every init step pile in"? Does it say "Start of multiple init steps"? No
That means it is talking about a single init step.
I am assuming absolutely nothing. I am simply reading the rule, which says it applies to a single step, and taking it from there.
In additon, you missed my point. A parenthetical statement cannot alter a sentnce, by definition (basic English there), just add explanation. This explanation works for the cases where both sides have equal I steps.
The ACTUAL rule is that you just have to not be in b2b for combat to end, at the end of the pile in for that init step
You cannot, in good faith, continue to argue while you are ignoring this very simple, very basic part of the rule. The rule is concerned with a single Init step. That is the context of the rule. Stop ignoring it.
Bacms wrote:nosferatu1001 wrote:
Where does it say that Pile In occurs at the start of the turn? It says that pile in occurs at each I step, and then again at the end of combat, if it is ongoing. Page and parag for you saying otherwise, as per the tenets of this forum
Page 23, Start of Initiative step pile in, only after that you do the rest of the things on your initiative step.
Sigh. No, it does NOT say that "pile in occurs at the start of the turn", which is what you claimed.
Quote: "At the start of each initiative step....."
That cannot be the start of the turn, as it is part of the Fight sub phase, which is after the charge sub phase. So, again, you do not have a rules quote to back up your contention. Please retract it.
Bacms wrote:I agree with you at initiative 2 I have to try and recover b2b we agree. The disagreement is that "both players pile in moves (ie 6inches) can still bring us together so combat does not end. Anyway it still does not mean you are no longer locked in combat you still have to go and test.your leadership and fail that. Otherwise you just pile in 6 inches.
No, the disagreement is that you are ignoring the context of the rule.
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Post by: Tactica
Kaldor wrote:Page 23, first column, half way down (Initiative Step Pile In)
"If both player's Pile In moves combined would be insufficient to bring any combatants back together (that's more than 6" - very unlikely!), the assault come to an end. All remaining Initiative steps are lost - work out the assault result as described on page 26".
So, let me break it down.
This is during "initiative step pile in" - so only talking about pile in moves made at that Initiative Step.
A squad of 5 Grey Hunters charge an Ork mob. They pile in, and kill the five Orks they are in base combat with at I4.
The Ork nob with big choppa is I3. He is more than 3" away from the nearest Grey Hunter.
Combat immediately ends.
Yes, you have it correct. Pile in is by model and per initiative step... very different from the way it used to be. We picked up three books at a midnight release, read them and played several test games this weekend. A great learning experience.
However, what you propose is going to be a rare situation from what I can imagine after playing our games...
A) Why is this Nob fighting with a Big Choppa anyway? Mine always have a Power Claw, I1! OK... had to say that, and I get your point...
B) That Nob was in a unit that was locked in combat, I'm presuming he was not engaged (within 2" of an engaged model) otherwise, if the Grey Hunters didn't challenge, the Nob could have if there was a character in the Grey Hunter squad. This would have got him to grips.
C) If the Nob wasn't engaged when the Grey Hunter's charged, it means there's a crap load of boys in that squad which caused him to be so far back... he's fearless. You win, the assault's over. Next turn, the boys are going to shoot then assault... the 5 Grey Hunters are dead.
I'm not sure there is a problem with any of this. Your scenerio requires a small unit charge a large unit. It requires the large unit to have a character with higher initiative (no power fist / axe) than the rest of the unit and it requires him to be so far away, that when charged and after over watch, he is not within 2" of the models you got in base to base with. It further requires the small charging unit to kill all models that were charged and in base to base. It's a pretty narrow and specific set of events. Moreover, even if it does happen, it means your charging unit is now in the open and the oponent gets to open up on that unit. <shrug>
Cheers,
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Post by: Bacms
I guess you just need to read all the pages before this. Following your scheme:
I'm probably missing something but, I would assume the combat goes;
I4 Space Marines Charge a unit of 29 boyz led by a Nob (ignoring the overwatch and the random charge for the theoretical discussion)
I10 step (nothing)
I9 step (nothing)
I8 step (nothing)
I7 step (nothing)
I6 step (nothing)
I5 step (nothing)
I4 step---Any Space Marine not in base to base, immediately makes a 3" Pile In Move to advance to base to base. If he can't, he tries to move within 2" of another Space Marine (5 ork boyz in the front row and on nobz are in b2b now).
I4 Attacks--resolve hits/wounds/saves---as all models are in base to base with this initiative step, the owning player (orks) may declare how he will allocate hits. He puts all 5 on the Boyz, fails all 5, leaving a lone Nob. (the other 24 are now more than 3inches away)
I3 step (nothing)
I2 step (nothing) boyz pile in, because they are more than 3 inches and cannot make it into b2b, combats ends and the remaining imitative steps are lost.
I1 step---Althoug the Nob is in base to base, his initiative step is ignored
Orks loose close combat and imagining they weren't fearless they would test for leadership and loose. End of combat.
This is what people are claiming it is clear from the rules. It still probably would never happen since we need to assume so many ifs but yeah this is what this topic is about
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Post by: Tactica
nosferatu1001 wrote:["Start of Initiative Step Pile In"
Does this say "Start of every init step pile in"? Does it say "Start of multiple init steps"? No
That means it is talking about a single init step.
I am assuming absolutely nothing. I am simply reading the rule, which says it applies to a single step, and taking it from there.
Just to weigh in... if it helps...
( pg. 23) Start of Initiative Step Pile In
"At the start of each Inititiative step, any model whos Initiative is equal to the value of the current Initiative step, that isn't already in base contact with an enemy model, must make a Pil In move. A Pile in move is a 3" move that is performed in the following order..."
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Post by: Crazyterran
Bacms wrote:I guess you just need to read all the pages before this. Following your scheme:
2012/07/02 21:56:31 Subject: Re:Glitch in assault rules
Bacms wrote:
It needs to be FAQ whoever is saying otherwise is basically ignoring the problem. We wouldn't be discussing it if the rules was clear.
It also does not need to involve multicharge. Squad of SM charges a unit with a nob with PK and boyz. Kill all the boyz at initiative 4 but only makes one wound on the nobz. The nobz is still in b2b but the boyz no longer are. At initiative 3 according to 3'' rule combat would end even if the nob at initiative 1 is still in b2b. If this is the case this is poor game design in my opinion.
I'm probably missing something but, I would assume the combat goes;
I4 Space Marines Charge a unit of 29 boyz led by a Nob (ignoring the overwatch and the random charge foe the theoretical discussion)
I10 step (nothing)
I9 step (nothing)
I8 step (nothing)
I7 step (nothing)
I6 step (nothing)
I5 step (nothing)
I4 step---Any Space Marine not in base to base, immediately makes a 3" Pile In Move to advance to base to base. If he can't, he tries to move within 2" of another Space Marine (5 ork boyz in the front row and on nobz are in b2b now).
I4 Attacks--resolve hits/wounds/saves---as all models are in base to base with this initiative step, the owning player (orks) may declare how he will allocate hits. He puts all 5 on the Boyz, fails all 5, leaving a lone Nob. (the other 24 are now more than 3inches away)
I3 step (nothing)
I2 step (nothing) boyz pile in, because they are more than 3 inches and cannot make it into b2b, combats ends and the remaining imitative steps are lost.
I1 step---Althoug the Nob is in base to base, his initiative step is ignored
Orks loose close combat and imagining they weren't fearless they would test for leadership and loose. End of combat.
This is what people are claiming it is clear from the rules.
No, what we are claiming is:
I10 Step - nothing
I9 Step - nothing
I8 Step - nothing
I7 Step - nothing
I6 Step - nothing
I5 Step - The Space Marine Captain strikes. He rolls his attacks, and kills a lot of boys.
I4 Step - The Space Marine Squad are not in base to base with any Orks, nor is the Captain. After making their 3" pile in move, they still can not make it into base to base with any Orks. The Assault ends, and Combat Resolution occurs.
I3 Step - Skipped
I2 Step - Skipped
I1 Step - Skipped.
In your example:
I5 Step - the Captain kills a lot of boys. However, the Ork Nob is still in base to base, as is a few other boys.
I4 step - The Space Marines pile in, and kill a lot more boys. However, the nob makes his saves and still remains in base to base with a space marine.
I3 Step - nothing
I2 step - the Orks, being more than 3" away from the marines and more than 5" away from the nob, pile in. They do not get to make any attacks, only attempting to get as close as possible.
i1 Step - the Ork swings his power klaw, killing Space marines. This is the last step, and Combat resolution occurs.
Both ways are correct. the Nob would never lose his attacks, only any surviving boys, if they are somehow more than 3" away from the marines and 5" from the nob. The nob is part of the unit, and as such, any boys within 2" of him would get to make any attacks. They must try to reach Base To Base if possible. If they cannot, they try to reach 2" of the Nob. If they cannot, the just get as close as possible. The PK nob would *never* lose his attacks, as long as he is in Base to Base.
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Post by: Bacms
Except you need to make up rules. You can't do both as it contradicts what is written on the second case. If the boyz cannot reach into b2b the remaining steps are lost.
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Post by: Crazyterran
Bacms wrote:Except you need to make up rules. You can't do both as it contradicts what is written on the second case.
I haven't made up any rules. The Nob is still in base to base in example 2, and as such, gets his attacks. Even if the boys can't make it in, they move as close as possible to the nob/base to base, since they still have someone in base to base.
In example 1, nobody is in base to base. Even after the marines pile in move, nobody is in base to base. as such, combat resolution occurs.
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Post by: Bacms
Crazyterran wrote:Bacms wrote:Except you need to make up rules. You can't do both as it contradicts what is written on the second case.
I haven't made up any rules. The Nob is still in base to base in example 2, and as such, gets his attacks. Even if the boys can't make it in, they move as close as possible to the nob/base to base, since they still have someone in base to base.
In example 1, nobody is in base to base. Even after the marines pile in move, nobody is in base to base. as such, combat resolution occurs.
Sorry you are right. Change my example to the nob is 1inch away rather than b2b. Since boyz can't make it nobz it is not allowed to try.
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Post by: AgeOfEgos
Bacms wrote:Except you need to make up rules. You can't do both as it contradicts what is written on the second case. If the boyz cannot reach into b2b the remaining steps are lost.
Just a small caveat, you would only need to be within 2" of the Nob during your Pile In to not break the chain in the rulebook. I suppose it might happen, if you had this; X = Nob O = Boyz o = Unengaged Boyz XOOOOOOOOOOOOOO oooo The Orks suffer just enough casualties in HTH to kill all the boyz at one Initiative Step---but not The Nob. The Pile In Move is outside of 5". Then yes, in that very rare example, the book breaks. Something the INAT FAQ will need to address and players will need to clarify before they play. Personally, I think the Paragraph of "If 6" is insufficient..." was inappropriately placed on the page--and was meant to be placed in the Determine Assault/Pile In Section.
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Post by: jms40k
Bacms wrote:Except you need to make up rules. You can't do both as it contradicts what is written on the second case. If the boyz cannot reach into b2b the remaining steps are lost.
Combat only ends if no models are engaged...
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Post by: mlund
If you'd end an initiative step after a pile-in with no models engaged the combat is over. There's no silliness with I3 models being forced to skip their attacks and then I1 models sweeping in and power-fisting them to death uncontested.
- Marty Lund
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Post by: Crazyterran
Bacms wrote:Crazyterran wrote:Bacms wrote:Except you need to make up rules. You can't do both as it contradicts what is written on the second case.
I haven't made up any rules. The Nob is still in base to base in example 2, and as such, gets his attacks. Even if the boys can't make it in, they move as close as possible to the nob/base to base, since they still have someone in base to base.
In example 1, nobody is in base to base. Even after the marines pile in move, nobody is in base to base. as such, combat resolution occurs.
Sorry you are right. Change my example to the nob is 1inch away rather than b2b. Since boyz can't make it nobz it is not allowed to try.
Yes, in this case, the Nob gets boned.
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Post by: BolingbrokeIV
The explanation which makes sense with what is written looks like it denies the models who pile in first an attack. Otherwise the idea that it is very unlikely makes no sense at all.
Either way it's giving me a headache.
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Post by: tgf
Bacms wrote:Except you need to make up rules. You can't do both as it contradicts what is written on the second case. If the boyz cannot reach into b2b the remaining steps are lost.
No rules are being made up except for the more than 6 inch rule, which doesn't exist. It's an example. An FAQ can't fix basic reading comprehension failure either. It appears that in this edition there will be those doomed to play on the short bus, it has been clearly explained by several people yet the argument persists.
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Post by: Hatemonger
I think AgeOfEgos' interpretation is correct: no more blows are struck, but you still do the combat resolution as normal.
AgeOfEgos wrote:Personally, I think the Paragraph of "If 6" is insufficient..." was inappropriately placed on the page--and was meant to be placed in the Determine Assault/Pile In Section.
I'm inclined to believe that, too, but then why the sentence about remaining initiative steps being lost? If it was the end of combat, that wouldn't matter, right?
But as has also been pointed out, the whole bit about "both pile-in moves" and "6 inches being unlikely" doesn't make a lot of sense in the context, either. I mean, clearly it's not that unlikely at all, is it? Whether it's a glitch, quirk, mistake, or intended mechanic, the requirement to activate it is only "kill all enemy models within 3 inches". All it takes is someone with a higher initiative doing a decent number of casualties to a spread-out enemy unit.
The "highly unlikely" statement would make a lot more sense if it was mentioned with the End of Combat pile-in (as AgeOfEgos said, and where similar things have been for the last couple editions), or if there was still a defender pile-in move at the beginning of combat, like there was in 5th. It makes me think this got garbled somewhere along the way through various playtest versions.
That leads me to believe that the OP (Kaldor) is right, in that:
1) That is how the wording reads,
2) That is not how it was intended to work, and
3) It is, therefore, a glitch.
- H8
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Post by: Crazyterran
It is how it's intended to work; if you spread your models out poorly, and you end up getting creamed in the combat, if you don't have models in base to base and within 3", the combat ends and resolution applies.
It's a buff to High Initiative combat armies, giving them a chance to strike quickly and not get hit back on the first turn of combat (as befitting something that's as fast as wych!)
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Post by: jcress410
So, does combat just end if marines kill all the engaged orks at I4, then at I3 (assume the nob actually has a PK.) there are no models to move, and then at the end of I3 nobody is in combat.
How do we make it to I2 for the boyz to move their 3" and swing?
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Post by: tristan.t.w.good@gmail.com
Here is my take after reading the rules this is my RAW including working out the all I steps
I10-I6 are ignored
At I5 the captain strikes and kills 8 orks leaving the remaining orks 5" away from him and his unit,
At I4 the marines measure for pile in and find they are short (my opinion is that combat ends here)
I3 ignored
At I2 orks measure find themselves short and therefore dont move either
At I1 PK Nob measures and cant reach either
Resolve Combat
If this is true then this could happen
I10-I6 are ignored
At I5 the captain strikes and kills 5 orks leaving the remaining orks 3" away from him and 4" away from his unit
At I4 the marines measure for pile in and find they are short (my opinion is that combat ends here)
I3 ignored
At I2 orks measure find themselves in range of the sergeant, charge him and are able to only kill him since he is the only one in base to base
At I1 PK Nob measures and cant reach either
Resolve Combat
Remember that pile in moves only happen if you can make base to base
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Post by: ToBeWilly
tristan.t.w.good@gmail.com wrote:Remember that pile in moves only happen if you can make base to base
This is incorrect. See page 23 of the Rulebook.
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Post by: Crazyterran
ToBeWilly wrote:tristan.t.w.good@gmail.com wrote:Remember that pile in moves only happen if you can make base to base
This is incorrect. See page 23 of the Rulebook.
I need to make a copy / paste of this chart.
Example combat: Space Marine Captain with a Tactical Squad fighting a mob of Orks w/ a Power Klaw Nob.
I10 - I6 skipped.
I5 - The Space Marine Captain swings and kill Orks, removing him from base to base.
I4 - The Space Marines pile in. If they can not get into base to base, and no other models from either squad are in base to base, the combat ends and combat resolution occurs.
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Post by: tristan.t.w.good@gmail.com
Crazyterrain if you read my original post in this thread i put in brackets that i agreed with this
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Post by: Crazyterran
tristan.t.w.good@gmail.com wrote:Crazyterrain if you read my original post in this thread i put in brackets that i agreed with this
I'm aware.
Adding the extra parts makes it murky, however, and we don't want people twisting words and such.
Besides, I need to have that thing on a seperate page just because. Lol.
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Post by: coredump
I had a really long response, but I got tired of it.
Can someone please justify the stance that the information under the heading "Start of Initiative Step Pile In" should not be followed when completing the PIle In during the start of the initiative step??
In the example, at the "Start of initiative step 3" we need to pIle in.
Following the rules, as written on that page:
First move any models that can get into base (none can)
Now move any models that can get into engagement (none can)
Now move the rest of the models from *that* initiative step forward 3". (Nob moves forward)
The rules remind us to follow movement rules, to ignore diff terrain, and not to base other units.
Then it says that if no models are in base contact, the combat is over.
Well, the Ork player Pile-in 3", and the Marine player Pile-in was 0" (no one at I3), so *combined" they did not move enough for any combatants to be in base contact.
So now, before we get to the next initiative step, it tells us to *skip* those steps, because the combat is over for that phase.
Now we move on to resolution, and a final "all-in" Pile-in.
How does one justify following some of those rules, but not all of them? How do you somehow distinguish which ones are meant for that init step, and which are not?
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Post by: imweasel
I think Nos and Crazy are correct.
However, there are some issues on what to do with more than 2 units locked in combat with each other.
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Post by: Crazyterran
coredump wrote:I had a really long response, but I got tired of it.
Can someone please justify the stance that the information under the heading "Start of Initiative Step Pile In" should not be followed when completing the PIle In during the start of the initiative step??
In the example, at the "Start of initiative step 3" we need to pIle in.
Following the rules, as written on that page:
First move any models that can get into base (none can)
Now move any models that can get into engagement (none can)
Now move the rest of the models from *that* initiative step forward 3". (Nob moves forward)
The rules remind us to follow movement rules, to ignore diff terrain, and not to base other units.
Then it says that if no models are in base contact, the combat is over.
Well, the Ork player Pile-in 3", and the Marine player Pile-in was 0" (no one at I3), so *combined" they did not move enough for any combatants to be in base contact.
So now, before we get to the next initiative step, it tells us to *skip* those steps, because the combat is over for that phase.
Now we move on to resolution, and a final "all-in" Pile-in.
How does one justify following some of those rules, but not all of them? How do you somehow distinguish which ones are meant for that init step, and which are not?
Because it says that you only get to pile in at your initiative step, and under "Beginning of Initiative Step Pile In", if no models can make it to base to base, and no models are in base to base, the combat is over, apply combat resolution.
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Post by: coredump
We completely agree. I must have done a crappy job of saying it...
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Post by: Crazyterran
We have consensus, I suppose.
The the day of having Captains in the corner that's about to be assaulted reign supreme? Lol.
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