Mike Leon wrote:The Axe Mortalis, The Executioners Axe, Glaive Encarmine: Unusual power weapons? Axes and glaives? As modeled?

I'm on the fence about this one. There is no clear advantage either way for most of these, so I don't care how it turns out, but it came up in a game today and I know it will come up again. I read it that they count as unusual power weapons, but someone else argued the other way. It does seem silly in this case to have weapons that are actually called the AXE mortalis and the executioners AXE and not have them count as axes, but this is Games Workshop we are dealing with. They probably wrote the whole book drunk.

Discuss?

Lone Dragoon wrote:

Mike Leon wrote:The Axe Mortalis, The Executioners Axe, Glaive Encarmine: Unusual power weapons? Axes and glaives? As modeled?

I'm on the fence about this one. There is no clear advantage either way for most of these, so I don't care how it turns out, but it came up in a game today and I know it will come up again. I read it that they count as unusual power weapons, but someone else argued the other way. It does seem silly in this case to have weapons that are actually called the AXE mortalis and the executioners AXE and not have them count as axes, but this is Games Workshop we are dealing with. They probably wrote the whole book drunk.

Discuss?

The problem with your line of thinking, if a weapon's name references a type of weapon it must be that type of weapon. Take the glaive for example. a glaive is actually a polearm which should make it fall under the lance category, but the official models themselves are armed with swords. Another example would be Tyranid Bonesabers. A saber is a type of sword. What if I want to model a hive tyrant with a biomorph axe with a hawk-like bill that releases a powerful tentacles inside the body to rip it apart from the inside out to count as bonesabers? I use the unwieldy rule because I have modeled it that way. We have to actually reference what the model is carrying, not the type of weapon is listed in the description since those descriptions say only that the weapons you listed are power weapons.

Mike Leon wrote:

Lone Dragoon wrote:

Mike Leon wrote:The Axe Mortalis, The Executioners Axe, Glaive Encarmine: Unusual power weapons? Axes and glaives? As modeled?

I'm on the fence about this one. There is no clear advantage either way for most of these, so I don't care how it turns out, but it came up in a game today and I know it will come up again. I read it that they count as unusual power weapons, but someone else argued the other way. It does seem silly in this case to have weapons that are actually called the AXE mortalis and the executioners AXE and not have them count as axes, but this is Games Workshop we are dealing with. They probably wrote the whole book drunk.

Discuss?

The problem with your line of thinking, if a weapon's name references a type of weapon it must be that type of weapon. Take the glaive for example. a glaive is actually a polearm which should make it fall under the lance category, but the official models themselves are armed with swords. Another example would be Tyranid Bonesabers. A saber is a type of sword. What if I want to model a hive tyrant with a biomorph axe with a hawk-like bill that releases a powerful tentacles inside the body to rip it apart from the inside out to count as bonesabers? I use the unwieldy rule because I have modeled it that way. We have to actually reference what the model is carrying, not the type of weapon is listed in the description since those descriptions say only that the weapons you listed are power weapons.

The models are not armed with swords. They are armed with axes.

<<<<< See image to the left for the Axe Mortalis

Kommissar Kel wrote:Lone Dragoon: a Glaive is not anywhere near a Lance; it is a Sword(mostly for Slashing)-on-a-stick. It is used much closer to the manner of a Halberd than a Lance, and as we know from the Power axe "look at the model" a Halberd is a Power Axe. But looking at the models; the Glaive encarmine is just a Zwei-hander with a longer-than-usual hilt.

AT any rate "unusual Power Weapons/Unusual Force weapons use their own special rules and have the AP cited in the rule book for the Unusual heading; their Form does not matter.

robzidious wrote:Well, Executioner's Axe is most definitely a unique power weapon. Two-handed axe that strikes at str 6 and causes invuln saves to be re-rolled. It has its own unique close-combat rules and should not suffer from unwieldy.

Glaive Encarmines are the same. It's a two-handed master-crafted power weapon. Really though it's not much different than saying it's a power sword because they are both AP 3 anyway.

Axe Mortalis I would consider to have its own unique rules as well because it is master-crafted, thus it's an AP 3 power weapon wielded at user str and does not suffer from unwieldy.

I mean, the rule seems quite clear to me. pg 61 "Many models have unusual power weapons that have one or more unique rules. If a power weapon has its own unique close combat rules, treat it as an AP 3 melee weapon with the additional rules and characteristics presented in its entry.

Seems pretty clear to me. These weapons all have unique rules (power axes aren't all master crafted). These weapons are unique to the characters, and I believe that is the intent.

Grey Templar wrote:Master Crafted doesn't make them a unique power weapon. Its just an additional special rule that can be applied to anything.

Grey Templar wrote:Master Crafted doesn't make them a unique power weapon. Its just an additional special rule that can be applied to anything.

Radiation wrote:

Grey Templar wrote:Master Crafted doesn't make them a unique power weapon. Its just an additional special rule that can be applied to anything.

According to Types of Power Weapons special rules are not allowed and master-crafted is in the special rules section. Same with two-handed.

Mike Leon wrote:It gets really weird if you start applying master crafted to generic power weapons from the Black Templar Codex. In that book you can make any power weapon master crafted for an extra 15 pts. So say you take a power weapon on your captain and it looks like a maul so it counts as a power maul. So then you pay 15 pts to make it master crafted, and just like that it's no longer a maul. It's an ap3 power weapon.

Mike Leon wrote:
It gets really weird if you start applying master crafted to generic power weapons from the Black Templar Codex. In that book you can make any power weapon master crafted for an extra 15 pts. So say you take a power weapon on your captain and it looks like a maul so it counts as a power maul. So then you pay 15 pts to make it master crafted, and just like that it's no longer a maul. It's an ap3 power weapon.


No, this is different. It is a power weapon which fits whatever it looks like, you just paid 15 more points for the master-crafted special rule.

Mike Leon wrote:

Mike Leon wrote:
It gets really weird if you start applying master crafted to generic power weapons from the Black Templar Codex. In that book you can make any power weapon master crafted for an extra 15 pts. So say you take a power weapon on your captain and it looks like a maul so it counts as a power maul. So then you pay 15 pts to make it master crafted, and just like that it's no longer a maul. It's an ap3 power weapon.


No, this is different. It is a power weapon which fits whatever it looks like, you just paid 15 more points for the master-crafted special rule.

That I don't agree with. You need to go one way or the other. A master crafted power weapon is a master crafted power weapon.

Lone Dragoon wrote: Take the glaive for example. a glaive is actually a polearm which should make it fall under the lance category, but the official models themselves are armed with swords.

robzidious wrote:I believe the intent was meant for some of these Xenos armies in the case where their "power weapons" aren't easily identifiable as one of the 4 types and has its own special rules. If a character is modeled with an axe power weapon then it should be an axe, sword is a sword, etc.

But then it becomes confusing because Astorath's axe is a str 6 weapon (rather than the +1 bonus applied to power axes...I believe that's right...don't have the rulebook in front of me). So, in that case, would you say Astorath has a power axe with Str 6, AP 2, unwieldy, melee, and then all his other special rules attached? Or because of the str of the weapon is it a "unique power weapon" thus being AP 3 and not having unwieldy?

That unwieldy really nerfs the hell out of Astorath considering he'll be striking at initiative step 1 and could either be dead by then or not have any targets in b2b contact.

Dragosanii12 wrote:
Now that would indeed mean that Sanguinary Guard would have whatever they were modeled with, Dante Would Have an Axe and the Sanguinor would have a Sword, wich whilst cool would be kind of rubish for Dante as it would ruin his mighty Initiative 6, shame that.

dionysus wrote:
In my opinion it refers to weapons that have rules already attached to them in the weapon entry. If you are paying points to upgrade a weapon that was stock to begin with, it wasn't a unique weapon so should be treated like it was modeled.

imweasel wrote:This is to settle the axe of morkai discusion.

It states in its rules that if used one handed, it swings as a frost blade and if two handed as a power fist.

It doesnt matter how its modeled.

If it stated that if swung as a frost weapon, there might be an issue on how its modeled.

sfshilo wrote:Axe Mortalis states it is a Master crafted power weapon.
Since it says axe......and it has an official GW model, WITH AN AXE, It is a master crafted power axe that is unwieldy.
Not sure why this one is confusing, it is what it is.

Executioners axe states it's a two handed power weapon, then has special rules. Again, not sure why this is in question, but it's an axe, so it's AP 2, but since it's special it does not have the unwieldy rule. (The fixed S6 makes it special, the fact that it's an axe makes it AP 2) Basic power axes are unwieldy, special ones have their own rules. That's why they are special. It doesn't change the fact that it's a power axe that is AP 2. If it was unwieldy they would have put that in the FAQ, just like the blood crozius.

The glaive states it is a master crafted two handed power weapon. That's it. You can choose what to make it. They didn't leave it ambiguous because they forgot, it can be used as you wish, it's written clear as day on the page. If it's a power weapon with no special rules then it can be what you want it to be. (And no, master crafted and two handed are not special rules)

EDIT: put the wrong item in paragraph 2

sfshilo wrote:Ok so lets clear this up.
"SPECIAL" is not the wording in the book. UNUSUAL is the proper word here.

Special is no where mentioned in the power weapon section. EDIT: it is, wtf GW?

If there are unique rules then it follows those rules as well as what is laid out in that section, says so right under the unique weapon paragraph.

Lets get away from "special" as that is not anywhere in that section.

EDIT: aw crap, well this is confusing as hell. lol this is confusing. I would just say if it's an axe it's an axe, if it's a power weapon, it's what you want it to be. Otherwise it's really wierd.

sfshilo wrote:Axe Mortalis states it is a Master crafted power weapon.
Since it says axe......and it has an official GW model, WITH AN AXE, It is a master crafted power axe that is unwieldy.
Not sure why this one is confusing, it is what it is.

Executioners axe states it's a two handed power weapon, then has special rules. Again, not sure why this is in question, but it's an axe, so it's AP 2, but since it's special it does not have the unwieldy rule. (The fixed S6 makes it special, the fact that it's an axe makes it AP 2) Basic power axes are unwieldy, special ones have their own rules. That's why they are special. It doesn't change the fact that it's a power axe that is AP 2. If it was unwieldy they would have put that in the FAQ, just like the blood crozius.

The glaive states it is a master crafted two handed power weapon. That's it. You can choose what to make it. They didn't leave it ambiguous because they forgot, it can be used as you wish, it's written clear as day on the page. If it's a power weapon with no special rules then it can be what you want it to be. (And no, master crafted and two handed are not special rules)

EDIT: put the wrong item in paragraph 2

sfshilo wrote:Yeah I still think it's a typo/oversight on their part, but AP 3 it is.
I'm all for a blood angels nerf I guess lol.

robzidious wrote:

sfshilo wrote:Yeah I still think it's a typo/oversight on their part, but AP 3 it is.
I'm all for a blood angels nerf I guess lol.

That's not really a nerf IMO though. The nerf is making it a power axe that is unwieldy and basically bending Dante's init. 6 over a barrel completely. I'll take the AP 3 any day to get to swing at init 6 step.

Lone Dragoon wrote:

robzidious wrote:

sfshilo wrote:Yeah I still think it's a typo/oversight on their part, but AP 3 it is.
I'm all for a blood angels nerf I guess lol.

That's not really a nerf IMO though. The nerf is making it a power axe that is unwieldy and basically bending Dante's init. 6 over a barrel completely. I'll take the AP 3 any day to get to swing at init 6 step.

The problem is, Master crafted is listed in the main book. It's not a special weapon, it's a weapon with the master crafted property. Some examples of Unusual power weapons would be Ork Burnas, Relic Blades, heck even the Executioner's Axe mentioned in this thread is a special weapon because it has unusual properties. Like I said earlier in the thread, if you want Dante to strike at I6 kitbash yourself a Dante with sword, instead of using the stock GW model.

Mike Leon wrote:

imweasel wrote:This is to settle the axe of morkai discusion.

It states in its rules that if used one handed, it swings as a frost blade and if two handed as a power fist.

It doesnt matter how its modeled.

If it stated that if swung as a frost weapon, there might be an issue on how its modeled.

Nice reading skills there, chief. The Axe Morkai has not been brought up at all in this discussion.

Brother Ramses wrote:

robzidious wrote:Well, Executioner's Axe is most definitely a unique power weapon. Two-handed axe that strikes at str 6 and causes invuln saves to be re-rolled. It has its own unique close-combat rules and should not suffer from unwieldy.

Glaive Encarmines are the same. It's a two-handed master-crafted power weapon. Really though it's not much different than saying it's a power sword because they are both AP 3 anyway.

Axe Mortalis I would consider to have its own unique rules as well because it is master-crafted, thus it's an AP 3 power weapon wielded at user str and does not suffer from unwieldy.

I mean, the rule seems quite clear to me. pg 61 "Many models have unusual power weapons that have one or more unique rules. If a power weapon has its own unique close combat rules, treat it as an AP 3 melee weapon with the additional rules and characteristics presented in its entry.

Seems pretty clear to me. These weapons all have unique rules (power axes aren't all master crafted). These weapons are unique to the characters, and I believe that is the intent.

This exactly.

This has been going on with Logan's Axe of Morkai where people are saying because it is modeled as an axe and named as an axe, you somehow disregard the specific wording of the rule that calls it a frost blade.

In the case of BA, they are all unusual power weapons that have one or more unique rules. The fact that it could be master crafted, str 9000, or bedazzled with Twilight movie quotes makes them fall under the AP3 classification for unusual power weapons.

Grey Templar wrote:You get +1A from pistols with Axes as its not a specilist weapon.

Neith wrote:

Grey Templar wrote:You get +1A from pistols with Axes as its not a specilist weapon.

Hadn't thought of that; honestly still don't think it makes them viable though. I just don't think +1S AP2 is enough to justify striking last...

Lone Dragoon wrote:

robzidious wrote:

sfshilo wrote:Yeah I still think it's a typo/oversight on their part, but AP 3 it is.
I'm all for a blood angels nerf I guess lol.

That's not really a nerf IMO though. The nerf is making it a power axe that is unwieldy and basically bending Dante's init. 6 over a barrel completely. I'll take the AP 3 any day to get to swing at init 6 step.

The problem is, Master crafted is listed in the main book. It's not a special weapon, it's a weapon with the master crafted property. Some examples of Unusual power weapons would be Ork Burnas, Relic Blades, heck even the Executioner's Axe mentioned in this thread is a special weapon because it has unusual properties. Like I said earlier in the thread, if you want Dante to strike at I6 kitbash yourself a Dante with sword, instead of using the stock GW model.

If a model's wargear says it has a power weapon which has no further special rules, look at the model to tell which type of power weapon it has: (weapon descriptions here)

If a model has its own unique close combat rules, treat it as an AP3 Melee weapon with the additional rules and characteristics.

dionysus wrote:Use kharn as an example. Gorechild (his axe) is in no way a common weapon, it has 2 or 3 unique special rules yet it has been ruled to be a power axe.

robzidious wrote:The more I have thought about this, I believe I may have been wrong based on the wording of the rules. It says in the rulebook that if some entry says "power weapon" you refer to what it is modeled as and use that. Thus Dante's would be a power axe, Astorath's would be a power axe, and SG would be based on whatever is modeled at the time, of course including all their special rules as well.

I think the need to clarify Lemartes' weapon (as with all Chaplains) was to define what a crozius should be in general (a power maul).

I believe the intent with "unique" power weapons was those that don't fall in the categories of sword, axe, maul, and lance, and are not easily identified. The wording of having special rules of their own (i.e. Astorath's axe) make this confusing. Either way GW needs to clarify.

Brother Ramses wrote:So again since everyone absolutely failes to see the obvious,

Does a default power weapon come master-crafted?

No.

Does the Axe of Mortalis do something different then a default power weapon?

Yes.

How is this even a debate? Arguing over the semantics of unique, special, and universal rules? It is like 6th edition released a bunch of new graduated rules lawyers school that barely passed the bar exam. Let's make this simple;

Is the power axe that I buy for my Grey Hunter to carry the exact same as the Axe of Mortalis in function?

No.

And for those of you that keep bringing up the Black Templar example;

You buy a power weapon. It's type is established by what you have modeled on the model, let's say type X. You then mastcraft that type X power weapon. You cannot mastercraft something that has not yet purchased.

Edit:

I would even go as far to say that you class your BT models power weapon when you initially model it, which is long before you ever mastercraft it.

Kiredor wrote:

Brother Ramses wrote:So again since everyone absolutely failes to see the obvious,

Does a default power weapon come master-crafted?

No.

Does the Axe of Mortalis do something different then a default power weapon?

Yes.

How is this even a debate? Arguing over the semantics of unique, special, and universal rules? It is like 6th edition released a bunch of new graduated rules lawyers school that barely passed the bar exam. Let's make this simple;

Is the power axe that I buy for my Grey Hunter to carry the exact same as the Axe of Mortalis in function?

No.

And for those of you that keep bringing up the Black Templar example;

You buy a power weapon. It's type is established by what you have modeled on the model, let's say type X. You then mastcraft that type X power weapon. You cannot mastercraft something that has not yet purchased.

Edit:

I would even go as far to say that you class your BT models power weapon when you initially model it, which is long before you ever mastercraft it.

Well yeah, so the Axe Mortalis is an Axe, that is Master Crafted.

Its not an unusual power weapon

So its still Str +1, AP 2, Unwieldy, but also Master Crafted.

It has to have UNIQUE special rules to be Unusual. Master Crafted is not a Unique Special Rule by any definition.

Grey Templar wrote:Yeah, "...own unique rules..." means exactly that.


The Executioners Axe's +2Str is a unique rule,

a Nemisis Halberd's +2I is a unique rule,

an Agonizer's "always wounds on a 4+" is a unique rule,

two handed is NOT a unique rule, its a USR,

master crafted is NOT a unique rule, its a USR,

shred is NOT a unique rule, its a USR,

...

winterman wrote:This really comes down to two parts of the power weapon rules.

Part 1
Premise 1

If a model's wargear says it has a power weapon which has no further special rules, look at the model to tell which type of power weapon it has: (weapon descriptions here)

This seems pretty clear, you only look at the model for guidance if its a plain power weapon with no special rules.

Premise 2
Master Crafted and two handed are in the special rules section and are thus clearly defined as special rules

Conclusion
A power weapon with master crafted and or two-handed cannot use the 'look at the model' rules for determining what sort of power weapon it has

.....

If we assume Part 1 is correct we are left with two options with Axe Mortalis and Blades Encarmine:
1) Treat power weapons with special rules as Unusual Power Weapons and thuse AP3 Melee weapons
2) Not treat them as such and have no way of knowing how to treat them, since they are specifically disallowed from being Axes, Swords, Mauls or Lances.

Gunzhard wrote:Ok hold on... where are we getting the wording for "unique" rules? ...I see the "no further special rules" ...and based on that wording I can almost agree with winterman.

Gunzhard wrote:

Kiredor wrote:

Brother Ramses wrote:So again since everyone absolutely failes to see the obvious,

Does a default power weapon come master-crafted?

No.

Does the Axe of Mortalis do something different then a default power weapon?

Yes.

How is this even a debate? Arguing over the semantics of unique, special, and universal rules? It is like 6th edition released a bunch of new graduated rules lawyers school that barely passed the bar exam. Let's make this simple;

Is the power axe that I buy for my Grey Hunter to carry the exact same as the Axe of Mortalis in function?

No.

And for those of you that keep bringing up the Black Templar example;

You buy a power weapon. It's type is established by what you have modeled on the model, let's say type X. You then mastcraft that type X power weapon. You cannot mastercraft something that has not yet purchased.

Edit:

I would even go as far to say that you class your BT models power weapon when you initially model it, which is long before you ever mastercraft it.

Well yeah, so the Axe Mortalis is an Axe, that is Master Crafted.

Its not an unusual power weapon

So its still Str +1, AP 2, Unwieldy, but also Master Crafted.

It has to have UNIQUE special rules to be Unusual. Master Crafted is not a Unique Special Rule by any definition.

By RAW this is the most accurate interpretation, though it still doesn't make any sense that Commander Dante would strike last in any situation.

Brother Ramses wrote: A default power weapon does not ever come mastercrafted, unless it is a special weapon.

Gunzhard wrote:We have a typical power weapon + a typical USR ...does that automatically make it "unique"... your opinion is yes.

kirsanth wrote:I have not seen many people assume that universal rules are unique.

Brother Ramses wrote:This is the farthest from RAW then you can get. The fact that some Joe Schmoe on the internet is claiming that mastercrafted is not a unique rule for a weapon that by default is NEVER mastercrafted based on his personal definition of what is unique and what isn't is as RAI as you could possibly get. "Unique" according to some guy on the internet?

Barring Warhammer 40k defined characterisitcs of what is unusual or special, you need to compare the basic properties of what constitutes the default characteristics and what you are presented with. A default power weapon does not ever come mastercrafted, unless it is a special weapon. It is unusual for a power weapon to be mastercrafted because by default they are never mastercrafted.

Captain Antivas wrote:

Brother Ramses wrote:This is the farthest from RAW then you can get. The fact that some Joe Schmoe on the internet is claiming that mastercrafted is not a unique rule for a weapon that by default is NEVER mastercrafted based on his personal definition of what is unique and what isn't is as RAI as you could possibly get. "Unique" according to some guy on the internet?

Barring Warhammer 40k defined characterisitcs of what is unusual or special, you need to compare the basic properties of what constitutes the default characteristics and what you are presented with. A default power weapon does not ever come mastercrafted, unless it is a special weapon. It is unusual for a power weapon to be mastercrafted because by default they are never mastercrafted.

Not according to some guy on the internet but logic. Logically speaking there would not be a rule to cover something that is in the game. Although the wording of the power weapons is not 100% clear the wording for what qualifies as an unusual weapon is. If it has "Unique" rules it is an unusual weapon. So, we can thus state as a general rule that the rule book gives us two options for power weapons: weapons with unique rules or weapons without. Now since you have a problem with this word lets take this apart logically. The definition of unique is, according to a dictionary and not just some guy on the internet, (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/unique) being the only one, being without a like or equal, unusual. Now lets logically break this down. Is Dante the only one with a master-crafted weapon? No, Sanguinary Guard have them, Captain Shrike has two, Vulkan He'Stan has one. So we can logically say that Master-crafted is not unique. We can't say that Master crafted weapons are without like or equal, since many people have them, so that definition is out. The description also says, according to the BRB, that master-crafting is the pinnacle of weaponsmiths. Since there is more than one weaponsmith in the galaxy, and each one has made more than one weapon in their lifetime, master-crafted weapons are far from without like or equal. Then the final definition is unusual. Is an axe crafted by the most accomplished artisans of the Chapter unusual? No, it is just an axe that was made for Dante. Is a relic blade unusual? Yes, because it does something that normal two-handed weapons don't do. Is the Executioners Axe unusual? Yes, it is an axe that increases str by 2. No other axe does that so it is unusual. Is an axe that is master-crafted unusual? No, because there is at least one other axe in the galaxy that is like it. So, by that logic having a master-crafted weapon is not unusual. In conclusion, since these weapons are not the only ones, without like or equal, or unusual, they are not unique.

Now, unless you are actually claiming that master-crafted power weapons do not have any rules at all then you must agree they fall under regular power weapons to determine their AP/str/and intiative.

DeathReaper wrote:

Brother Ramses wrote: A default power weapon does not ever come mastercrafted, unless it is a special weapon.

The weapons of the Sanguinary guard would like to have a word with you.

Kiredor wrote:Brother Rameses, Master Crafted is not Unique.

Antivas provided a dictionary definition.

I'm going to repeat that I consider UNIVERSAL special rules not UNIQUE

If it is NOT UNIQUE, it is NOT UNUSUAL. By RAW.

If you consider just having a USR to make it Unique, despite there being many other weapons with identical rules, then thats for you and your opponent.

Once again, the wording for Unusual weapons require one or more Unique Special Rules.

Kiredor wrote:Frost Blades are not Power Weapons

They have a profile that makes them Str +1, AP 3, or S+2, AP 2 Unwieldy, as per the SW FAQ

They are not unusual power weapons, because they are no longer power weapons, and thus don't refer to the rules.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, Lemartes has a Master Crafted Power Maul.

By your definition this is an Unusual power weapon, thus has none of the Maul rules.

Why bother FAQing it then?

Halfpast_Yellow wrote:By the By, +1 Str AP2 at I1 on a model with a 2+ save far outways striking at base str AP3 at whatever initiative you want. Welcome to 6th Edition and pray Dante is FAQed to use the Axe rules.

Halfpast_Yellow wrote:I know he does. That was for the players who can't seem to accept that.

lichkitten wrote:So alittle off topic but same line of resoning with all the above, could you say that since the Axe Mortalis is a named weapon could it be an unusual weapon. I bring it up since i use Vulkan He'stan who has under the new rules a lance type so he goes up to St7 on the charge AP3, or normally St6 AP4' or does it come down to as the Cpt above said an AP3 unusual power weapon?

Lichkitten wrote:Thank god for that with Vulkan anyway, so by that reasoning the glave encarmines are unusual PWs no arguments from me since they only exist in the BA codex, the black sword in BT is aswell (my friend put a mace on hes years ago). So just my condolences for the I1 Dante Because hes Glave buddies go first.

Radiation wrote:Blood Angels Codex pg 23

Equipment, top of page, "when an item is unique, it is detailed in the relevant entry for its owner...A good example of this is the Axe Mortalis, a potent weapon wielded by Commander Dante."

There ya go folks. I was looking forward to AP 2 axes on Dante and SG, but it looks like they are unique and strike as AP 3 Melee.

Radiation wrote:Blood Angels Codex pg 23

Equipment, top of page, "when an item is unique, it is detailed in the relevant entry for its owner...A good example of this is the Axe Mortalis, a potent weapon wielded by Commander Dante."

There ya go folks. I was looking forward to AP 2 axes on Dante and SG, but it looks like they are unique and strike as AP 3 Melee.

Kommissar Kel wrote:

Radiation wrote:Blood Angels Codex pg 23

Equipment, top of page, "when an item is unique, it is detailed in the relevant entry for its owner...A good example of this is the Axe Mortalis, a potent weapon wielded by Commander Dante."

There ya go folks. I was looking forward to AP 2 axes on Dante and SG, but it looks like they are unique and strike as AP 3 Melee.

Yep, the Item is unique.

The rules however are not(and unique rules are what makes a Power weapon Unusual, not that the Power weapon is a unique Item).

Lets look at it this way:

the Dark Angels Codex is due out fairly soonish(probably Early 2013; I have no idea, but it will be among the first 6th edition Codices).

Since Loyalist Marines, and a First founding Chapter such as the Dark Angels will/Generally have access to Master Crafted weapons, lets assume Master crafting will be an available upgrade(Like it is for Grey Knights).

SO lets take a Chaplain; A Crozius Arcanum is a Power Maul(We already know this from the loyalist FAQs).

when you spend points to master craft that Crozius Arcanum(For sake of the Argument, lets just assume Master crafting the weapon is a purchase option); does it no longer count as a Power Maul, but becomes an Unusual Power weapon instead?

Kiredor wrote:Red Comet.

The problem is, that if you take that view, there are no rules for Dante's weapon.

Power Weapons do not have default rules.

It has special rules (master crafted), so you don't look at the model to decide what weapon it is.

But if it doesn't fall under the category 'unusual' then we have no rules to use, so that the weapon does nothing.

Which do you think it should be?

Red Comet wrote:

Kiredor wrote:Red Comet.

The problem is, that if you take that view, there are no rules for Dante's weapon.

Power Weapons do not have default rules.

It has special rules (master crafted), so you don't look at the model to decide what weapon it is.

But if it doesn't fall under the category 'unusual' then we have no rules to use, so that the weapon does nothing.

Which do you think it should be?

Dante's weapon has rules that are all USR.

Power Weapons do have default rules.

Yes you do look at the model because Dante has a Power Weapon thus the shape of the model decides.

Its not unusual in any way because Lemartes's Crozius is not unusual either. It was changed to be a Master crafted Power Maul in the FAQ, not a Master crafted Ap3 Melee Weapon because it is unusual.

Brother Ramses wrote:

Red Comet wrote:

Kiredor wrote:Red Comet.

The problem is, that if you take that view, there are no rules for Dante's weapon.

Power Weapons do not have default rules.

It has special rules (master crafted), so you don't look at the model to decide what weapon it is.

But if it doesn't fall under the category 'unusual' then we have no rules to use, so that the weapon does nothing.

Which do you think it should be?

Dante's weapon has rules that are all USR.

Power Weapons do have default rules.

Yes you do look at the model because Dante has a Power Weapon thus the shape of the model decides.

Its not unusual in any way because Lemartes's Crozius is not unusual either. It was changed to be a Master crafted Power Maul in the FAQ, not a Master crafted Ap3 Melee Weapon because it is unusual.

You have no idea what you are talking about or don't own the new 6th edition rulebook yet.

The Axe of Moralis is a mastercrafted power weapon.

Per the absolute and undeniable RAW, you only look at what is modeled if there are NO FURTHER SPECIAL RULES. Mastercrafted is a further special rule so you do not look at the Axe of Mortalis to see what is modeled to determine the rules of the weapon.

What Kiredor is saying that if anyone insists on the idiotic thought process that a mastercrafted power weapon is not special/unique and thus ap3, user str/initiative, then all mastercrafted power weapons don't do crap. So you have to either accept that,

1. Mastercrafted power weapons are both special/unique and thus are ap3, user str/initiative

Or

2. Mastercrafted power weapons are user str/initiative ap-

And your tidbit about Lemartes, until the FAQ, his crozius was just a mastercrafted ap3, user str/initiative. The FAQ changed the weapon entry completely.

Brother Ramses wrote:This stupid strawman has already been smacked down when it was brought up for BT power weapons and purchasing mastercrafted.

Did your imaginary chaplain's wargear entry say that he comes with a mastercrafted maul? If not, then his power weapon did not come with any FURTHER special rules. Read the RAW. If they power weapon did not come with any further special rules, you default to how it looks to determine the rules. Adding mastercrafted after the fact does not make it special/unique and thus ap3, because it did not originally come with said FURTHER special rule to class it as a special/unique weapon at ap3.

Red Comet wrote:

Brother Ramses wrote:

Red Comet wrote:

Kiredor wrote:Red Comet.

The problem is, that if you take that view, there are no rules for Dante's weapon.

Power Weapons do not have default rules.

It has special rules (master crafted), so you don't look at the model to decide what weapon it is.

But if it doesn't fall under the category 'unusual' then we have no rules to use, so that the weapon does nothing.

Which do you think it should be?

Dante's weapon has rules that are all USR.

Power Weapons do have default rules.

Yes you do look at the model because Dante has a Power Weapon thus the shape of the model decides.

Its not unusual in any way because Lemartes's Crozius is not unusual either. It was changed to be a Master crafted Power Maul in the FAQ, not a Master crafted Ap3 Melee Weapon because it is unusual.

You have no idea what you are talking about or don't own the new 6th edition rulebook yet.

The Axe of Moralis is a mastercrafted power weapon.

Per the absolute and undeniable RAW, you only look at what is modeled if there are NO FURTHER SPECIAL RULES. Mastercrafted is a further special rule so you do not look at the Axe of Mortalis to see what is modeled to determine the rules of the weapon.

What Kiredor is saying that if anyone insists on the idiotic thought process that a mastercrafted power weapon is not special/unique and thus ap3, user str/initiative, then all mastercrafted power weapons don't do crap. So you have to either accept that,

1. Mastercrafted power weapons are both special/unique and thus are ap3, user str/initiative

Or

2. Mastercrafted power weapons are user str/initiative ap-

And your tidbit about Lemartes, until the FAQ, his crozius was just a mastercrafted ap3, user str/initiative. The FAQ changed the weapon entry completely.

You are hilarious man. You sit here and make fun of me as if I don't have the rulebook. Look here I'm going to quote for you word for word and not insult you unlike what you like to do:

Unusual Power Weapons:
"Many models have unusual power weapons that have one or more unique rules. If a Power Weapon has its own unique close combat rules, treat it as an AP3 Melee Weapon with the additional rules and characteristics presented in its entry."

You mention SPECIAL Rules well you obviously don't have the rulebook, because it says UNIQUE rules as I just typed up for you. Unique rules aren't USR. Unique rules aren't found anywhere else. Dante has a Mastercrafted (USR) Power Weapon. That doesn't make it have any unique rules. It follows all of the normal rules for a Master crafted Power Weapon.

Let me elaborate more. Lemartes's crozius is just as clear as well. Its simply a Master crafted Power Weapon. The FAQ changed it to a Master Crafted Power Maul. Its doesn't have UNIQUE rules, it has special rules that are covered in the BRB. So it follows the rules for a Master crafted Power Maul, not an unusual weapon because there is nothing unique about a weapon being mastercrafted.

Astaroth has an Unusual weapon because it has Unique rules, not special ones.

Oh one last definition special =/= unique. Special means its special. Unique means one of a kind. Is Mastercrafted one of a kind? No, hence its not unique, but special.

Kommissar Kel wrote:

Brother Ramses wrote:This stupid strawman has already been smacked down when it was brought up for BT power weapons and purchasing mastercrafted.

Did your imaginary chaplain's wargear entry say that he comes with a mastercrafted maul? If not, then his power weapon did not come with any FURTHER special rules. Read the RAW. If they power weapon did not come with any further special rules, you default to how it looks to determine the rules. Adding mastercrafted after the fact does not make it special/unique and thus ap3, because it did not originally come with said FURTHER special rule to class it as a special/unique weapon at ap3.

A Chaplains Crozius is never just a Power weapon; it is Always a Power Maul.

Also your ridiculous "smack down" against "this Stupid Strawman" is entirely invalid; When you check what type of Power weapon your model has is after the Model has been built, If I am Building my model to suit my list and My list has a Mastercrafted Power weapon; then according to you that power weapon is now an unusual Power weapon and the Form of that power weapon will not matter.

Scenario: I Make a List for the current Black Templar Codex(Since you brought it up), giving my Marshal A master crafted Power weapon.
I then start building my Marshal model and Decide I want him to have a Spear(Because I have him bike mounted you see and it just looks cool that way).
Now when I have built my Charging Black templar Knight Marshal Model I look to it's power weapon to determine which type of power weapon I have, but Oh, wait; my Power weapon is Master crafted, I guess it is an unusual power weapon?

No wait, it has a Special rule, but no unique rules; so it is a Power weapon that is not Unusual.

Brother Ramses wrote:

Red Comet wrote:

Brother Ramses wrote:

Red Comet wrote:

Kiredor wrote:Red Comet.

The problem is, that if you take that view, there are no rules for Dante's weapon.

Power Weapons do not have default rules.

It has special rules (master crafted), so you don't look at the model to decide what weapon it is.

But if it doesn't fall under the category 'unusual' then we have no rules to use, so that the weapon does nothing.

Which do you think it should be?

Dante's weapon has rules that are all USR.

Power Weapons do have default rules.

Yes you do look at the model because Dante has a Power Weapon thus the shape of the model decides.

Its not unusual in any way because Lemartes's Crozius is not unusual either. It was changed to be a Master crafted Power Maul in the FAQ, not a Master crafted Ap3 Melee Weapon because it is unusual.

You have no idea what you are talking about or don't own the new 6th edition rulebook yet.

The Axe of Moralis is a mastercrafted power weapon.

Per the absolute and undeniable RAW, you only look at what is modeled if there are NO FURTHER SPECIAL RULES. Mastercrafted is a further special rule so you do not look at the Axe of Mortalis to see what is modeled to determine the rules of the weapon.

What Kiredor is saying that if anyone insists on the idiotic thought process that a mastercrafted power weapon is not special/unique and thus ap3, user str/initiative, then all mastercrafted power weapons don't do crap. So you have to either accept that,

1. Mastercrafted power weapons are both special/unique and thus are ap3, user str/initiative

Or

2. Mastercrafted power weapons are user str/initiative ap-

And your tidbit about Lemartes, until the FAQ, his crozius was just a mastercrafted ap3, user str/initiative. The FAQ changed the weapon entry completely.

You are hilarious man. You sit here and make fun of me as if I don't have the rulebook. Look here I'm going to quote for you word for word and not insult you unlike what you like to do:

Unusual Power Weapons:
"Many models have unusual power weapons that have one or more unique rules. If a Power Weapon has its own unique close combat rules, treat it as an AP3 Melee Weapon with the additional rules and characteristics presented in its entry."

You mention SPECIAL Rules well you obviously don't have the rulebook, because it says UNIQUE rules as I just typed up for you. Unique rules aren't USR. Unique rules aren't found anywhere else. Dante has a Mastercrafted (USR) Power Weapon. That doesn't make it have any unique rules. It follows all of the normal rules for a Master crafted Power Weapon.

Let me elaborate more. Lemartes's crozius is just as clear as well. Its simply a Master crafted Power Weapon. The FAQ changed it to a Master Crafted Power Maul. Its doesn't have UNIQUE rules, it has special rules that are covered in the BRB. So it follows the rules for a Master crafted Power Maul, not an unusual weapon because there is nothing unique about a weapon being mastercrafted.

Astaroth has an Unusual weapon because it has Unique rules, not special ones.

Oh one last definition special =/= unique. Special means its special. Unique means one of a kind. Is Mastercrafted one of a kind? No, hence its not unique, but special.

/shakes head

Core rulebook, pg 61 Types of Power Weapons, paragraph 2:

"If a model's wargear says it has a power weapon which has no further SPECIAL rules, look at the model to tell which type of power weapon it has;...."

BA Codex pg 53, Axe of Mortalis:

"The Axe of Mortalis is a master-crafted power weapon."

Now still sticking with you not knowing what you are talking about, by all means please show me how you look what Dante is carrying to determine the rules for the power weapon when the RAW specifically tells you that the only time you do check for what the model is carrying is when there are NO FURTHER SPECIAL RULES? Last time I checked master-crafted was a SPECIAL rule and the Axe of Mortailis is a master-crafted power weapon, ie, a power weapon with FURTHER SPECIAL rules.

So your stance that the Axe of Mortalis follows the rules for a master-crafted power axe does not stand up to the RAW because the rules entry has a FURTHER SPECIAL RULE and thus you NEVER look to what is modeled to determine the rules.

As I then stated, because you cannot class the Axe of Mortalis because of the FURTHER SPECIAL Rule in the wargear entry (master-crafted) on how it is modeled you left with the two choices I gave you.

1. Class master-crafted as a unique rule for the wargear entry and the Axe of Mortalis becomes user str/init, ap3

Or

2. Idiotically insist that master-crafted is only special, but not unique and you are left with a master-crafted power weapon that is user str/init, ap-, and can reroll one missed hit when used in melee.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Kommissar Kel wrote:

Brother Ramses wrote:This stupid strawman has already been smacked down when it was brought up for BT power weapons and purchasing mastercrafted.

Did your imaginary chaplain's wargear entry say that he comes with a mastercrafted maul? If not, then his power weapon did not come with any FURTHER special rules. Read the RAW. If they power weapon did not come with any further special rules, you default to how it looks to determine the rules. Adding mastercrafted after the fact does not make it special/unique and thus ap3, because it did not originally come with said FURTHER special rule to class it as a special/unique weapon at ap3.

A Chaplains Crozius is never just a Power weapon; it is Always a Power Maul.

Also your ridiculous "smack down" against "this Stupid Strawman" is entirely invalid; When you check what type of Power weapon your model has is after the Model has been built, If I am Building my model to suit my list and My list has a Mastercrafted Power weapon; then according to you that power weapon is now an unusual Power weapon and the Form of that power weapon will not matter.

Scenario: I Make a List for the current Black Templar Codex(Since you brought it up), giving my Marshal A master crafted Power weapon.
I then start building my Marshal model and Decide I want him to have a Spear(Because I have him bike mounted you see and it just looks cool that way).
Now when I have built my Charging Black templar Knight Marshal Model I look to it's power weapon to determine which type of power weapon I have, but Oh, wait; my Power weapon is Master crafted, I guess it is an unusual power weapon?

No wait, it has a Special rule, but no unique rules; so it is a Power weapon that is not Unusual.

KK, what does the wargear entry for a DA/BT/UM chaplain say? Does it say master-crafted Crozius Arcanum? For example, FAQ not withstanding, the BA codex, pg 42

"Crozius Arcanum: The Crozius Arcanum is a Space Marine Chaplain's rod of office. It is a power weapon."

Now again referencing page 61 of the core rulebook,

"If a model's wargear says it has a power weapon which has no further special rules, look to the model to tell which type of power weapon it has:....."

Were there any further special rules for the Crozius Arcanum wargear entry? Then it defaults to how the weapon looks. Now apply the same to your imaginary DA chaplain:

His imaginary wargear entry says the exact same as the BA entry; it is a power weapon. With no further special rules, you class it how it looks, most likely a maul.

Now with both your BT example and your DA example, did the models wargear entry contain any further special rules? Probably not with the way you are trying to argue your point. So you then class the weapon on how you modeled it.

You then purchased master-crafting for a weapon that has already been classed on how it looks because the wargear originally did not have any further special rules. You added a special rule later, but that was not part of the original wargear entry and thus were forced to class your weapon on how it was modeled and then master-crafted that specific type of weapon.

Red Comet wrote:

Brother Ramses wrote:

Red Comet wrote:

Brother Ramses wrote:

Red Comet wrote:

Kiredor wrote:Red Comet.

The problem is, that if you take that view, there are no rules for Dante's weapon.

Power Weapons do not have default rules.

It has special rules (master crafted), so you don't look at the model to decide what weapon it is.

But if it doesn't fall under the category 'unusual' then we have no rules to use, so that the weapon does nothing.

Which do you think it should be?

Dante's weapon has rules that are all USR.

Power Weapons do have default rules.

Yes you do look at the model because Dante has a Power Weapon thus the shape of the model decides.

Its not unusual in any way because Lemartes's Crozius is not unusual either. It was changed to be a Master crafted Power Maul in the FAQ, not a Master crafted Ap3 Melee Weapon because it is unusual.

You have no idea what you are talking about or don't own the new 6th edition rulebook yet.

The Axe of Moralis is a mastercrafted power weapon.

Per the absolute and undeniable RAW, you only look at what is modeled if there are NO FURTHER SPECIAL RULES. Mastercrafted is a further special rule so you do not look at the Axe of Mortalis to see what is modeled to determine the rules of the weapon.

What Kiredor is saying that if anyone insists on the idiotic thought process that a mastercrafted power weapon is not special/unique and thus ap3, user str/initiative, then all mastercrafted power weapons don't do crap. So you have to either accept that,

1. Mastercrafted power weapons are both special/unique and thus are ap3, user str/initiative

Or

2. Mastercrafted power weapons are user str/initiative ap-

And your tidbit about Lemartes, until the FAQ, his crozius was just a mastercrafted ap3, user str/initiative. The FAQ changed the weapon entry completely.

You are hilarious man. You sit here and make fun of me as if I don't have the rulebook. Look here I'm going to quote for you word for word and not insult you unlike what you like to do:

Unusual Power Weapons:
"Many models have unusual power weapons that have one or more unique rules. If a Power Weapon has its own unique close combat rules, treat it as an AP3 Melee Weapon with the additional rules and characteristics presented in its entry."

You mention SPECIAL Rules well you obviously don't have the rulebook, because it says UNIQUE rules as I just typed up for you. Unique rules aren't USR. Unique rules aren't found anywhere else. Dante has a Mastercrafted (USR) Power Weapon. That doesn't make it have any unique rules. It follows all of the normal rules for a Master crafted Power Weapon.

Let me elaborate more. Lemartes's crozius is just as clear as well. Its simply a Master crafted Power Weapon. The FAQ changed it to a Master Crafted Power Maul. Its doesn't have UNIQUE rules, it has special rules that are covered in the BRB. So it follows the rules for a Master crafted Power Maul, not an unusual weapon because there is nothing unique about a weapon being mastercrafted.

Astaroth has an Unusual weapon because it has Unique rules, not special ones.

Oh one last definition special =/= unique. Special means its special. Unique means one of a kind. Is Mastercrafted one of a kind? No, hence its not unique, but special.

/shakes head

Core rulebook, pg 61 Types of Power Weapons, paragraph 2:

"If a model's wargear says it has a power weapon which has no further SPECIAL rules, look at the model to tell which type of power weapon it has;...."

BA Codex pg 53, Axe of Mortalis:

"The Axe of Mortalis is a master-crafted power weapon."

Now still sticking with you not knowing what you are talking about, by all means please show me how you look what Dante is carrying to determine the rules for the power weapon when the RAW specifically tells you that the only time you do check for what the model is carrying is when there are NO FURTHER SPECIAL RULES? Last time I checked master-crafted was a SPECIAL rule and the Axe of Mortailis is a master-crafted power weapon, ie, a power weapon with FURTHER SPECIAL rules.

So your stance that the Axe of Mortalis follows the rules for a master-crafted power axe does not stand up to the RAW because the rules entry has a FURTHER SPECIAL RULE and thus you NEVER look to what is modeled to determine the rules.

As I then stated, because you cannot class the Axe of Mortalis because of the FURTHER SPECIAL Rule in the wargear entry (master-crafted) on how it is modeled you left with the two choices I gave you.

1. Class master-crafted as a unique rule for the wargear entry and the Axe of Mortalis becomes user str/init, ap3

Or

2. Idiotically insist that master-crafted is only special, but not unique and you are left with a master-crafted power weapon that is user str/init, ap-, and can reroll one missed hit when used in melee.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Kommissar Kel wrote:

Brother Ramses wrote:This stupid strawman has already been smacked down when it was brought up for BT power weapons and purchasing mastercrafted.

Did your imaginary chaplain's wargear entry say that he comes with a mastercrafted maul? If not, then his power weapon did not come with any FURTHER special rules. Read the RAW. If they power weapon did not come with any further special rules, you default to how it looks to determine the rules. Adding mastercrafted after the fact does not make it special/unique and thus ap3, because it did not originally come with said FURTHER special rule to class it as a special/unique weapon at ap3.

A Chaplains Crozius is never just a Power weapon; it is Always a Power Maul.

Also your ridiculous "smack down" against "this Stupid Strawman" is entirely invalid; When you check what type of Power weapon your model has is after the Model has been built, If I am Building my model to suit my list and My list has a Mastercrafted Power weapon; then according to you that power weapon is now an unusual Power weapon and the Form of that power weapon will not matter.

Scenario: I Make a List for the current Black Templar Codex(Since you brought it up), giving my Marshal A master crafted Power weapon.
I then start building my Marshal model and Decide I want him to have a Spear(Because I have him bike mounted you see and it just looks cool that way).
Now when I have built my Charging Black templar Knight Marshal Model I look to it's power weapon to determine which type of power weapon I have, but Oh, wait; my Power weapon is Master crafted, I guess it is an unusual power weapon?

No wait, it has a Special rule, but no unique rules; so it is a Power weapon that is not Unusual.

KK, what does the wargear entry for a DA/BT/UM chaplain say? Does it say master-crafted Crozius Arcanum? For example, FAQ not withstanding, the BA codex, pg 42

"Crozius Arcanum: The Crozius Arcanum is a Space Marine Chaplain's rod of office. It is a power weapon."

Now again referencing page 61 of the core rulebook,

"If a model's wargear says it has a power weapon which has no further special rules, look to the model to tell which type of power weapon it has:....."

Were there any further special rules for the Crozius Arcanum wargear entry? Then it defaults to how the weapon looks. Now apply the same to your imaginary DA chaplain:

His imaginary wargear entry says the exact same as the BA entry; it is a power weapon. With no further special rules, you class it how it looks, most likely a maul.

Now with both your BT example and your DA example, did the models wargear entry contain any further special rules? Probably not with the way you are trying to argue your point. So you then class the weapon on how you modeled it.

You then purchased master-crafting for a weapon that has already been classed on how it looks because the wargear originally did not have any further special rules. You added a special rule later, but that was not part of the original wargear entry and thus were forced to class your weapon on how it was modeled and then master-crafted that specific type of weapon.

I understand your point now, because you actually reference the rulebook. This is actually a contradiction within the rules, but its pretty clear by Lemartes's Crozius that Dante has a Power Axe because Lemartes now has a Power Maul per the FAQ when before it was a "Master crafted Power Weapon". If we look at that FAQ for precedence we would see that following the same logic Dante has a Power Axe and the Sanguinary Guard depend on what they are holding.

By your logic Lemartes's Crozius should be an AP3 Melee Weapon that is mastercrafted, but its not now is it?

Looking at your ridiculous example of adding Master Crafted after purchasing the weapon with points and purchasing Mastercrafted then the Power Weapons should be classified as Ap3 Melee Weapons and not as what you modeled them as. Stop contradicting yourself. You are making no sense with that example. There is no order of operations for determining a weapon.

Brother Ramses wrote:
KK, what does the wargear entry for a DA/BT/UM chaplain say? Does it say master-crafted Crozius Arcanum? For example, FAQ not withstanding, the BA codex, pg 42

"Crozius Arcanum: The Crozius Arcanum is a Space Marine Chaplain's rod of office. It is a power weapon."

Brother Ramses wrote:Now again referencing page 61 of the core rulebook,

"If a model's wargear says it has a power weapon which has no further special rules, look to the model to tell which type of power weapon it has:....."

Were there any further special rules for the Crozius Arcanum wargear entry? Then it defaults to how the weapon looks. Now apply the same to your imaginary DA chaplain:

Brother Ramses wrote:His imaginary wargear entry says the exact same as the BA entry; it is a power weapon. With no further special rules, you class it how it looks, most likely a maul.

Now with both your BT example and your DA example, did the models wargear entry contain any further special rules? Probably not with the way you are trying to argue your point. So you then class the weapon on how you modeled it.

Brother Ramses wrote:You then purchased master-crafting for a weapon that has already been classed on how it looks because the wargear originally did not have any further special rules. You added a special rule later, but that was not part of the original wargear entry and thus were forced to class your weapon on how it was modeled and then master-crafted that specific type of weapon.

Red Comet wrote:Are you seriously arguing that a weapon which is considered a Master Crafted Power Weapon, is different from a Weapon that's a Power Weapon with the master crafted rule? Seriously?

Its the same thing. A mastercrafted power weapon is a master crafted power weapon no matter how it came to be one. Your entire argument isn't even based on RAW. Its based on your opinion because there is no order of operations because GW has never clearly stated it. I'm pretty sure that GW got lazy with the FAQ's hence why this discussion is even occurring. Watch for the FAQ its going to be ruled that the SG Glaive's depend on the weapon they carry and Dante is wielding a power axe.

Red Comet wrote:I don't see how any of your points are RAW at all when in game there is no distinction between adding the upgrade to a Power Weapon and a Power Weapon that already has it. Rules wise its the same. At the moment you are simply just reiterating the same thing as if saying it over and over makes you right. There is no order of operations. There are only Power Weapons or Master Crafted Power Weapons. There is no middle that has some weird loophole.

If what you say is true then as soon as any model mastercrafts any of his weapons it instantly becomes an AP3 Melee Weapon which makes no sense. Why can't I have a Master Crafted Power Axe?

chewielight wrote:Silly argument. I don't see the issue here. Its not a regular power weapon and special rules are unique to that weapon. The reason power fists,lightening claws and thunder hammers are not changed is because they are singled out with their respective USR'S. Based on the power weapon entry any additional rules added to a power weapon makes it unique for that entry. Even lamartes crozious is unique and was labeled a power maul because ALL CHAPLAINS weapons were changed because really what would you call it? Looks like we are going to keep kicking this dead horse.

GW would have made things easier if they understood people are going to tear this apart and put their own special spin on it.

Kommissar Kel wrote:Ramses: You keep claiming this whole "check the model while writing the List"

where is the RAW on that?

Where is the rules that you have to have the Model before you write the list up?

I checked my Rulebook and all of my codices(which is, coincidentally, every codex), and I have not found 1 rules that stated you have to have the models before you write out your Armylist, nor that you determine your Power weapon type before you finish writing out that model.

And for your Variable Crozius on your wolf Priest; I take it you will be switching out your magnetized arm before you write up your list right?

What about at the concept Stage? Do you have to determine which Power weapon as soon as you settle on fielding a Wolf Priest? Or even begin to think about it? Better just have 4 Wolf priests, one with each sub-type; that way when you are contemplating taking a wolf priest and look at your model(s), you will have 1 of each.

Brother Ramses wrote:

Kommissar Kel wrote:Ramses: You keep claiming this whole "check the model while writing the List"

where is the RAW on that?

Where is the rules that you have to have the Model before you write the list up?

I checked my Rulebook and all of my codices(which is, coincidentally, every codex), and I have not found 1 rules that stated you have to have the models before you write out your Armylist, nor that you determine your Power weapon type before you finish writing out that model.

And for your Variable Crozius on your wolf Priest; I take it you will be switching out your magnetized arm before you write up your list right?

What about at the concept Stage? Do you have to determine which Power weapon as soon as you settle on fielding a Wolf Priest? Or even begin to think about it? Better just have 4 Wolf priests, one with each sub-type; that way when you are contemplating taking a wolf priest and look at your model(s), you will have 1 of each.

KK, can you purchase a master-crafted power weapon or do you purchase a power weapon and then master-craft it? Simple question.

And it has absolutely nothing to do with having the model before you write the list, at all. The rules are specific in that you determine the type of power weapon when there are no further rules by what is on the model. Is master-crafted on that list of types of power weapons? You might consider adding some bedazzles to it, but that is not the criteria ofr identifying the model.

On another point, you could have all the intent when conceptualizing your army list in your mind that your HQ is going to be equipped with a master-crafted power axe. However that doesn't change the fact that you first purchased him a generic power weapon, and then master-crafted it. It didn't come master-crafted as in the instance of the Axe of Mortalis or Glaive Encarmines. That is the key difference that you keep failing to see.

Brother Ramses wrote:

A power weapon that has a further special rule does not refer to what has been modeled to determine type/rules. Do you agree with this or not?

Now, when buying a generic power weapon, does it have further special rules? No, so you refer to what is modeled to determine type/rules.

So when you purchase the option to mastercraft the above generic power weapon, that has already had its type/rules established by looking at the model because it did not have any further special rules, you are mastercrafting that type of weapon.

KK, this part applies to you as well. I did a quick glance through my codexes and have not found a single option to purchase a mastercrafted power weapon. I have seen the option to purchase a power weapon and I have seen an option to purchase mastercrafting that weapon, but not seen the option to purchase a mastercrafted weapon.

How about you show me the error of my ways with the following examples;

1. The wargear entry for Capt Jim West says he has a master-crafted power weapon. It is a power weapon that has further special rules (mastercrafted), so therefore you do not determine its type/rules by looking at the model. Insert debate if mastercrafting is also a unique rule, Capt Jim West has a mastercrafted power weapon with ap3, user str/init, reroll one missed hit when used in melee.

2. Capt James Kirk purchases a power weapon from his wargear options. The wargear entry for said power weapon has no further special rules so therefore you look at the model and determine that it is a axe, so its rules are str +1, ap2, init 1. Capt Kirk then purchases the option to mastercraft his now identified power axe. Kirk now has a mastercrafted power axe, str+1, ap2, init 1, reroll one missed hit when used in melee.

That is the RAW, with the exception being the ongoing debate whether or not mastercrafted is a unique rule or not.

Kommissar Kel wrote:

Brother Ramses wrote:

Kommissar Kel wrote:Ramses: You keep claiming this whole "check the model while writing the List"

where is the RAW on that?

Where is the rules that you have to have the Model before you write the list up?

I checked my Rulebook and all of my codices(which is, coincidentally, every codex), and I have not found 1 rules that stated you have to have the models before you write out your Armylist, nor that you determine your Power weapon type before you finish writing out that model.

And for your Variable Crozius on your wolf Priest; I take it you will be switching out your magnetized arm before you write up your list right?

What about at the concept Stage? Do you have to determine which Power weapon as soon as you settle on fielding a Wolf Priest? Or even begin to think about it? Better just have 4 Wolf priests, one with each sub-type; that way when you are contemplating taking a wolf priest and look at your model(s), you will have 1 of each.

KK, can you purchase a master-crafted power weapon or do you purchase a power weapon and then master-craft it? Simple question.

And it has absolutely nothing to do with having the model before you write the list, at all. The rules are specific in that you determine the type of power weapon when there are no further rules by what is on the model. Is master-crafted on that list of types of power weapons? You might consider adding some bedazzles to it, but that is not the criteria ofr identifying the model.

On another point, you could have all the intent when conceptualizing your army list in your mind that your HQ is going to be equipped with a master-crafted power axe. However that doesn't change the fact that you first purchased him a generic power weapon, and then master-crafted it. It didn't come master-crafted as in the instance of the Axe of Mortalis or Glaive Encarmines. That is the key difference that you keep failing to see.

Master Crafted is a Further rule though is it not?

You are claiming that before you finish writing the entry for your model(assigning the master crafted to the power weapon) you check if the power weapon has any special rules.

When you have your whatever model calculated for points cost, you have a Mastercrafted Power weapon(Which is a Power weapon that has the master crafted special rule).

Also do you even know what you are arguing at this point? Because you have muddied our discourse to the point where I do not even know if you are claiming Master crafted counts for making a power weapon unusual or not anymore(I am arguing it does not, since Master crafted is a basic special rule that can be attributed to many different weapons, and is in no way a "unique" special rule).

chewielight wrote:
See that's the rub. There is no such item that is "unique" special. All we are given is regular power weapons that have no special rules attached or we are given unusual power weapons. There isn't a third option in this equation. USR's are special rules and as such don't fit in the regular power weapon entry. Whether given or purchased a master crafted power weapon is an unusual power weapon because if it isn't then it isn't a regular power weapon. Master crafted fits the rules for unusual . The only reason powerfists,hammers,lighting claws,halbreds,mauls,spears etc. are not unusual is because they are given specific rules.

So we can argue this until we are blue in the face but unless you can show that USR's are not special rules that make that item unique then they should be unusual power weapons.

AresX8 wrote:Seems like I need to repeat myself:

Are you two seriously suggesting that The Axe Mortalis falls under the same rules that Relic Blades, Agonisers, Huskblades, Drach'nyen and Talon of Horus, and GK Force Halberds do? All of those weapons fall under unusual power weapons.

chewielight wrote:Master Crafted is its own unique rule for that weapon the fact that it is a USR just shows what the rule is for the weapon that way they don't have to write it out every time so instead they point to the USR's. It even says so in the BRB AND further states that they are not all covered by the USR class , for those other rules they will be written out. The reason you can't have it as an axe is because your not given permission to class the weapon as a regular power weapon if it has special rules attached. Anything that isn't a normal power weapon by RAW would be unusual whether purchased or not. It doesn't make sense that you are arguing over your interpretation of the word unique v special and flat out discounting everyone else's.

The fact is there isn't a difference in the two terms when it comes to RAW because if you don't include it into the unusual category then they wouldn't be power weapons at all because they don't fit into the regular power weapon category. You can't have it your way and just rewrite the BRB. There are only two classes of power weapons and they either fit in to one or they go in the other.

AresX8 wrote:Seems like I need to repeat myself:

Are you two seriously suggesting that The Axe Mortalis falls under the same rules that Relic Blades, Agonisers, Huskblades, Drach'nyen and Talon of Horus, and GK Force Halberds do? All of those weapons fall under unusual power weapons.

rogueeyes wrote:What order do you apply the rules in? Master crafted or power weapon?

If you apply master crafted first then when you apply the power weapon rules there will be no further special rules. To apply thus making it identified by the power weapon types.

If you apply master crafted after then you would have an unusual power weapon being ap3 since you still need to apply master crafted to the weapon.

Since we read from right to left we should apply in the order we read the rules. For example a master crafted power weapon like dantes axe would be s+1 ap2 i1. Whereas astoraths axe woud be s6 ap3 because it still has special rules after power weapon is stated.

If it is a power weapon that is master crafted then we would apply power weapon and see that there is still extra rules to apply thus making it ap3 unusual weapon.

The wording there are no further special rules is key. Further specifies that there is the ability to have some special rules already applied. Otherwise it would state no special rules rather than no further special rules.

Red Comet wrote:

rogueeyes wrote:What order do you apply the rules in? Master crafted or power weapon?

If you apply master crafted first then when you apply the power weapon rules there will be no further special rules. To apply thus making it identified by the power weapon types.

If you apply master crafted after then you would have an unusual power weapon being ap3 since you still need to apply master crafted to the weapon.

Since we read from right to left we should apply in the order we read the rules. For example a master crafted power weapon like dantes axe would be s+1 ap2 i1. Whereas astoraths axe woud be s6 ap3 because it still has special rules after power weapon is stated.

If it is a power weapon that is master crafted then we would apply power weapon and see that there is still extra rules to apply thus making it ap3 unusual weapon.

The wording there are no further special rules is key. Further specifies that there is the ability to have some special rules already applied. Otherwise it would state no special rules rather than no further special rules.

I'm assuming you meant read from left to right correct? I understand your interpretation and that makes a lot of sense. Further "Unique Rules" are specified after the word Power Weapon is stated.

chewielight wrote:Once again. There are only two category of power weapons. You guys are trying to make a third, or at least a subset of regular power weapons. Your only given permission to use the regular power weapon entry if a power weapon doesn't have a special rule. Since USR's and CSR's(codex special rules) are just that ;special they can't be used to denote a regular power weapon, what other choice are you given? That's right unusual. I agree that this shouldn't be the case but there isn't any other choice unless you choose not to follow the BRB rules for regular power weapons,then I guess you can claim that a USR or CSR doesn't matter in determining what the weapons class is.

To answer the other part. Does a USR or CSR make a weapon unusual. The answer can only be yes based on the BRB.
GW needs to errata this to clear it up. Until they do we are going to keep going round and round.

rogueeyes wrote:

chewielight wrote:Once again. There are only two category of power weapons. You guys are trying to make a third, or at least a subset of regular power weapons. Your only given permission to use the regular power weapon entry if a power weapon doesn't have a special rule. Since USR's and CSR's(codex special rules) are just that ;special they can't be used to denote a regular power weapon, what other choice are you given? That's right unusual. I agree that this shouldn't be the case but there isn't any other choice unless you choose not to follow the BRB rules for regular power weapons,then I guess you can claim that a USR or CSR doesn't matter in determining what the weapons class is.

To answer the other part. Does a USR or CSR make a weapon unusual. The answer can only be yes based on the BRB.
GW needs to errata this to clear it up. Until they do we are going to keep going round and round.

Where did I state there was a third option? If special rules come before the power weapon rule then it has no further special rules after when you apply the power weapon rule and you decide what the weapon is at that point in time by looking at the weapon.

Stretching a bit for your argument lol. Further also means in addition or additional. Yours doesn't make any sense because this isn't and never has been the chicken or the egg scenario. Its in addition or additional not which came first.

If there are still FURTHER special rules then it is an ap3 weapon.

yep your right since further means in addition to the power weapon entry(see this makes more sense and thanks for proving my point)

You however are stating I get to pick and choose which order I apply rules in in which case I can argue a single weapon can end in two different sets of rules after everything is applied depending on when I apply a specific rule rather going in the order that they are specified and the precedence set by the faqs.

nope because of above . I am stating that you must consider all parts of the entry for the rules to be satisfied.
Ignoring one part is ignoring the rule completely.

If I ignore further then any other rules that a power weapon has makes it an unusual power weapon rather than following raw which states further special rules. Power weapon is a weapon rule NOT a SPECIAL rule as defined in the special rules section. Pg 32 to 43 define special rules. It states further special rules are defined in the codex.

Power weapons are defined under the weapons section beginning on p50 to p62. If I may have no further special rules then what is the point of stating further when I cannot have any to begin with.

Red Comet wrote:Alright look at page 32 of the rulebook and it says, "Many troops have their own unique abilities, which are laid out in their codex." This means that Rules that are not listed in the BRB are Unique rules.

Unusual Power Weapons say if the weapon has Unique Rules (not special). But when you look at how to define a power weapon it says special and not unique. This is a discrepancy that makes no sense and the rules do not bother to cover. The only way to explain it is how rogueeyes is explaining it.

Red Comet wrote:

There is a difference between Special and Unique. Right now you are telling me that both words in the English language mean the same thing when they don't. Just because you are unique does not mean you are special. Technically Power Weapons with "no further special rules" have no classification if you really want to go with RAW. Because it never tells us what to do with Power Weapons with further Special Rules since Unusual Power Weapons need to be UNIQUE not SPECIAL.

Red Comet wrote:You don't see how unique and special rules are completely different within the rules themselves even if the definition is "similar'. The two words are not the same. Just because some of the definitions for unique contain references to being special doesn't mean all instances of something being unique are special.

chewielight : they mean the same thing in the context of the BRB. Unique can mean one of a kind but there is a precedence that in the BRB and many codex's that it is a broader term, hence its meaning is clearly a (special rule ) broader in the aspect of giving rules that are not covered in the general rule set. The BRB tells us that these rules that break or change the basic generic rules are cover by being a USR or CSR and it also tells us that they are not a complete listing but we are to look in the codex's for additional special rules specific to each codex (which are special or/and unique). Being a USR or CSR makes the rules special (and by all definitions unique)

Going back to the rules. Special Rules are clearly laid out in codices and the BRB. I admit that I forgot Codices have Special Rules like: Red Thirst for example. But it is not a unique rule because the codex describes it as Special. Unique rules are those like the Nemesis Daemon Weapons. They are all unique even though they actually follow a certain set of special rules as well they are all Unique weapons because they also follow unique rules. Why is it we can all agree that Astaroth is Unique while Dante isn't? Dante's rules are not unique, because they follow a specific set of generic rules that a lof of different codices or units within the same codex use.

chewielight: once again your not correct. Either a USR/CSR are special meaning by definition making them unique to the IC,weapon,ability etc or they are generic. There is no other way. Now you can have something more unique than another but unless every single weapon of that type gets that generic rule then the weapon is by RAW special and by definition unique. Just like the power weapon entry. Its either a generic power weapon or its unusual because of a rule (whether by USR or CSR) thus making that weapon unique. This is where special and unique mean the same thing, because we have nothing that tells us that unusual weapons are one of a kind( one meaning) or they encompass a broader rule for a codex or item. Nemesis force weapons are not classified as unique in their codex nor the FAQ only unusual as they have special rules attached to them that change them from being regular power weapons. They might be more special but they are not unique(one of a kind) in the sense but are codex special. USR/CSR are not generic please stop saying so. Another falsehood is that red thirst isn't unique but it is unique to C:BA as no other codex gets it and the fact that it is listed as a special rule proves my point in that they mean the same. For the Dante v Astorath comment. Looking back at the old comments its not everyone agreeing just a handful, both have special power weapons(Lemartes,logan etc for that matter) because they are not generic. Are there power weapons that have more special rules than Dante,Lemartes,etc ,yes of course but that doesn't invalidate the others. It just means they are more special but all are unique.

GW's definition of USR means just that Universal Special Rule. Its Universal to all books, but unique rules don't have a specific category and in a way are miscellaneous rules that cannot be categorized.

chewielight wrote:
By the Webster or oxford definition of the word it does mean both. You might want to look those words up before you try to make a false statement.
Definition of SPECIAL

: distinguished by some unusual quality; especially : being in some
way superior <our special blend>
: held in particular esteem
: readily distinguishable from others of the same category : UNIQUE <they set it apart as a special day of thanksgiving>
: of, relating to, or constituting a species : SPECIFIC
: being other than the usual : ADDITIONAL, EXTRA, UNUSUAL
: designed for a particular purpose or occasion

Definition of unique
adjective being the only one of its kind; unlike anything else: the situation was unique in British politics
original and unique designs
(unique to) belonging or connected to (one particular person, place, or thing): a style of architecture that is unique to Portugal
particularly remarkable, SPECIAL, or UNUSUAL: a unique opportunity to see the spectacular Bolshoi Ballet

rogueeyes wrote:Here is the argument you are portraying:

Power weapons with any special rules are unusual power weapons.
A Master Crafted Power Weapon has a special rule
A Master Crafted Power Weapon is S: User and AP: 3.

correct because further is a weapon with additional rules

The argument I am portraying:
Power Weapons with no further special rules are defined as generic power weapons.
Power Weapons with additional special rules provided are defined as unusual power weapons.
A Master Crafted power weapon has a special rule given before power weapon.
A Master crafted power weapon has no additional special rules after power weapon.
A Master Crafted Power weapon is a generic power weapon.

I am in no way arguing that there are 3 different types of power weapons. There are generic and there are unusual.

The argument is not that hard. Unique and Special are the same but the argument is not based on that. The argument is based on a power weapon having further special rules and the order in which we apply rules.

this line would be incorrect. There is no where in the rulebook that gives you the options nor permission to use order of operations to determine this. Your argument is only valid if you choose a single definition of the word further. Since order of operation isn't an option because your not given permission to do so we can only go by what the word means in total. Your argument has no merit and makes no sense to use it the way you are stating. Rogue your losing this argument because you can't use a meaning of a word and then turn around ignoring the actual meaning of further which is what the BRB gives permission in many instances.
Its either a weapon with a rule thus being unusual or its generic. Since those weapons have rules with them they are unusual.

Given your argument if I have a poisoned power weapon it is AP3. If I have any kind of weapon at all with ANY special rules then it is an unusual power weapon. The word FURTHER becomes ignored because it is impossible to have any special rules whatsoever in your argument.

this would be correct because the word further hasnt been ignored so the weapon would be unusual. Are regular power weapons poison,master crafted,rending,pinning,etc? No they are not. By including any special rule to a power weapon further (once again in addition and not oder of operation because OOO isn't an option for weapons) it is unusual. I am consistent you are not.

If I choose to create a power weapon with a special rule bulky:

Big Stick
This is a bulky power weapon.

Your argument breaks down because I can only use it's own unique close combat rules. Bulky is not a close combat rule. My argument still stands and works correctly. Model counts as 2 models for the purpose of transport capacity. You look at the model to see what the Big Stick is modeled as in order to get the power weapon type of staff, sword, lance or maul.

is there another power weapon that has that rule? Sounds like it is unique to me. Your trying way to hard and stretching way to much.


Special Rules != unique close combat rule.
Special Rules = Unique Rules
Special Rules before Power Weapon = no additional special rules
Power Weapon before Special Rules = additional special rules

Dante's Axe = MAster crafted Power Axe
Blood Crozius = Master Crafted Power Maul (before it was errata'd to be just this)
Executioner's Axe = Unique Power Weapon
Glaive Encarmine = Generic Power Weapons as modeled.

chewielight wrote:
By the Webster or oxford definition of the word it does mean both. You might want to look those words up before you try to make a false statement.
Definition of SPECIAL

: distinguished by some unusual quality; especially : being in some
way superior <our special blend>
: held in particular esteem
: readily distinguishable from others of the same category : UNIQUE <they set it apart as a special day of thanksgiving>
: of, relating to, or constituting a species : SPECIFIC
: being other than the usual : ADDITIONAL, EXTRA, UNUSUAL
: designed for a particular purpose or occasion

Definition of unique
adjective being the only one of its kind; unlike anything else: the situation was unique in British politics
original and unique designs
(unique to) belonging or connected to (one particular person, place, or thing): a style of architecture that is unique to Portugal
particularly remarkable, SPECIAL, or UNUSUAL: a unique opportunity to see the spectacular Bolshoi Ballet

Tenets of YMDC:
6. Dictionary definitions of words are not always a reliable source of information for rules debates, as words in the general English language have broader meanings than those in the rules. This is further compounded by the fact that certain English words have different meanings or connotations in Great Britain (where the rules were written) and in the United States. Unless a poster is using a word incorrectly in a very obvious manner, leave dictionary definitions out.

chewielight wrote:

Really? That's your entire argument on this posting. I have no problem not using a definition if you don't and let's be honest that's exactly what you have done. You pull this card because my definition makes sense and yours doesn't. Funny is that you were using the words incorrectly and I choose to use what they mean by their definitions . You don't get to make statements without rebuttal , and as I have a good understanding of the English language decided to call you on it. Please refrain from responding if your going to try to teach someone the meaning of a word which you have done with using your opinion and not what the word means in total.

Eldercaveman wrote:Not sure if this has been mentioned anywhere in this thread as I haven't read every post, but in the blood angels codex on page 23, angelic host. Under equiptment it clearer says, (paraphrase) some wargear is unique, if this is the case then its rules will be in the section of the character or something to that effect, it the gives the axe mortalis as a specific example of one of these UNIQUE rules, and if I remember rightly, codex takes precedence over rule book?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Not sure if this has been mentioned anywhere in this thread as I haven't read every post, but in the blood angels codex on page 23, angelic host. Under equiptment it clearer says, (paraphrase) some wargear is unique, if this is the case then its rules will be in the section of the character or something to that effect, it the gives the axe mortalis as a specific example of one of these UNIQUE rules, and if I remember rightly, codex takes precedence over rule book?

chewielight wrote:chewielight : they mean the same thing in the context of the BRB. Unique can mean one of a kind but there is a precedence that in the BRB and many codex's that it is a broader term, hence its meaning is clearly a (special rule ) broader in the aspect of giving rules that are not covered in the general rule set. The BRB tells us that these rules that break or change the basic generic rules are cover by being a USR or CSR and it also tells us that they are not a complete listing but we are to look in the codex's for additional special rules specific to each codex (which are special or/and unique). Being a USR or CSR makes the rules special (and by all definitions unique)

once again your not correct. Either a USR/CSR are special meaning by definition making them unique to the IC,weapon,ability etc or they are generic. There is no other way. Now you can have something more unique than another but unless every single weapon of that type gets that generic rule then the weapon is by RAW special and by definition unique. Just like the power weapon entry. Its either a generic power weapon or its unusual because of a rule (whether by USR or CSR) thus making that weapon unique. This is where special and unique mean the same thing, because we have nothing that tells us that unusual weapons are one of a kind( one meaning) or they encompass a broader rule for a codex or item. Nemesis force weapons are not classified as unique in their codex nor the FAQ only unusual as they have special rules attached to them that change them from being regular power weapons. They might be more special but they are not unique(one of a kind) in the sense but are codex special. USR/CSR are not generic please stop saying so. Another falsehood is that red thirst isn't unique but it is unique to C:BA as no other codex gets it and the fact that it is listed as a special rule proves my point in that they mean the same. For the Dante v Astorath comment. Looking back at the old comments its not everyone agreeing just a handful, both have special power weapons(Lemartes,logan etc for that matter) because they are not generic. Are there power weapons that have more special rules than Dante,Lemartes,etc ,yes of course but that doesn't invalidate the others. It just means they are more special but all are unique.

No GW's definition of USR is defined in the BRB as special rules for abilities or items that break or change the generic rule set. Thats not true actually as not every book contains these rules. There is no such thing as a defined unique rule unless you let special rules (which is what we are doing with executioner, Nemesis force weapons) fill that gap. no where does it state unique only that those entries have SPECIAL rules of their own. Its the special rules that make them unique just like all special rules are unique to their respective ability or item.
Red you can't have it the way you want it and then turn around to say exactly what I wrote but with different twisting word play. Your talking yourself into a corner you cant get out of. They mean the same thing and aren't complete separate items as I have shown . One is just more special/unique than the other but it doesn't make items with only one special rule not unique. Last time there are only two power weapon category options. If it isn't a regular power weapon because it has a special rule then you are only left with option 2 that are unusual power weapons.

Eldercaveman wrote:Not sure if this has been mentioned anywhere in this thread as I haven't read every post, but in the blood angels codex on page 23, angelic host. Under equiptment it clearer says, (paraphrase) some wargear is unique, if this is the case then its rules will be in the section of the character or something to that effect, it the gives the axe mortalis as a specific example of one of these UNIQUE rules, and if I remember rightly, codex takes precedence over rule book?

rogueeyes wrote:

chewielight wrote:

Really? That's your entire argument on this posting. I have no problem not using a definition if you don't and let's be honest that's exactly what you have done. You pull this card because my definition makes sense and yours doesn't. Funny is that you were using the words incorrectly and I choose to use what they mean by their definitions . You don't get to make statements without rebuttal , and as I have a good understanding of the English language decided to call you on it. Please refrain from responding if your going to try to teach someone the meaning of a word which you have done with using your opinion and not what the word means in total.

You've paid no attention to my logical argument which the FAQ's have reinforced at how the rules say weapons should work. I have used the definitions correctly. The fact is that you CANNOT use the full definition of a word in the context fo a rule set because language subsets different between regions let alone between different languages.

If I state that I walk down the road I have walked down segment A of the road. I now walk FURTHER down the road. During this movement I walk down segment B. I have walked an additional segment of the road. I have walked further on the road.

I start with a master crafted weapon. I add further rules to the weapon. I make it a power weapon. I do not add any more rules. I have no further rules.

I start with a power weapon. I add a rule that states any successful invulnerable saves must be re-rolled. I have an additional rule. I have a further rule I must implement.

The argument is not that difficult to understand and I have seen no proof to say that my logical interpretation of the rules are not correct. You say I am using the definition wrong when in fact it my reading of the rules is based on the definition of the wording within the book and within the English language.

Your argument would be based upon the argument that you can implement rules in any order that you so choose. If you implement rules in an incorrect order using ALL OF THE WORDS contained within the rules you can implement contradictions within the rules. By ignoring the word FURTHER you have done just that.

The correct way to determine if there are further special rules for a power weapon you must determine if there is any special rules to begin with. All special rules on power weapons that are stated before the power weapon rule do not make a power weapon unusual since they are not further special rules. They are in fact that basic special rules for that power weapon. These rules are implemented as you read them. As you read a rule you implement it based on the fact that they are interchangeable with the rules that are given.

A then B creates C
B then A creates D
C is not necessarily equal to D
C may be equal to D

You are falling into the basic fallacy that C must always be D when in fact what is C and what is D is determined by the order that you apply A and B rather then the simple existence of A and B.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Eldercaveman wrote:Not sure if this has been mentioned anywhere in this thread as I haven't read every post, but in the blood angels codex on page 23, angelic host. Under equiptment it clearer says, (paraphrase) some wargear is unique, if this is the case then its rules will be in the section of the character or something to that effect, it the gives the axe mortalis as a specific example of one of these UNIQUE rules, and if I remember rightly, codex takes precedence over rule book?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Not sure if this has been mentioned anywhere in this thread as I haven't read every post, but in the blood angels codex on page 23, angelic host. Under equiptment it clearer says, (paraphrase) some wargear is unique, if this is the case then its rules will be in the section of the character or something to that effect, it the gives the axe mortalis as a specific example of one of these UNIQUE rules, and if I remember rightly, codex takes precedence over rule book?

It states that the wargear is unique. Wargear being unique does not mean that it has unique rules.

I have a Big Stick. Only an the Ork Warboss Zartan has the Big Stick. The Big Stick is stated has being a power klaw. The Big Stick has no special rules other than it has a special name and is only used by Zartan. No one else can use this wargear. It is unique to Zartan but it has no unique nor special rules.

Unique wargear != unique rules
Unique wargear != special rules

Special wargear != unique rules
Special wargear != special rules

Red Comet wrote:

chewielight wrote:chewielight : they mean the same thing in the context of the BRB. Unique can mean one of a kind but there is a precedence that in the BRB and many codex's that it is a broader term, hence its meaning is clearly a (special rule ) broader in the aspect of giving rules that are not covered in the general rule set. The BRB tells us that these rules that break or change the basic generic rules are cover by being a USR or CSR and it also tells us that they are not a complete listing but we are to look in the codex's for additional special rules specific to each codex (which are special or/and unique). Being a USR or CSR makes the rules special (and by all definitions unique)

once again your not correct. Either a USR/CSR are special meaning by definition making them unique to the IC,weapon,ability etc or they are generic. There is no other way. Now you can have something more unique than another but unless every single weapon of that type gets that generic rule hen the weapon is by RAW special and by definition unique. Just like the power weapon entry. Its either a generic power weapon or its unusual because of a rule (whether by USR or CSR) thus making that weapon unique. This is where special and unique mean the same thing, because we have nothing that tells us that unusual weapons are one of a kind( one meaning) or they encompass a broader rule for a codex or item. Nemesis force weapons are not classified as unique in their codex nor the FAQ only unusual as they have special rules attached to them that change them from being regular power weapons. They might be more special but they are not unique(one of a kind) in the sense but are codex special. USR/CSR are not generic please stop saying so. Another falsehood is that red thirst isn't unique but it is unique to C:BA as no other codex gets it and the fact that it is listed as a special rule proves my point in that they mean the same. For the Dante v Astorath comment. Looking back at the old comments its not everyone agreeing just a handful, both have special power weapons(Lemartes,logan etc for that matter) because they are not generic. Are there power weapons that have more special rules than Dante,Lemartes,etc ,yes of course but that doesn't invalidate the others. It just means they are more special but all are unique.

No GW's definition of USR is defined in the BRB as special rules for abilities or items that break or change the generic rule set. Thats not true actually as not every book contains these rules. There is no such thing as a defined unique rule unless you let special rules (which is what we are doing with executioner, Nemesis force weapons) fill that gap. no where does it state unique only that those entries have SPECIAL rules of their own. Its the special rules that make them unique just like all special rules are unique to their respective ability or item.
Red you can't have it the way you want it and then turn around to say exactly what I wrote but with different twisting word play. Your talking yourself into a corner you cant get out of. They mean the same thing and aren't complete separate items as I have shown . One is just more special/unique than the other but it doesn't make items with only one special rule not unique. Last time there are only two power weapon category options. If it isn't a regular power weapon because it has a special rule then you are only left with option 2 that are unusual power weapons.

You keep saying how Special Rules and Unique Rules are the same thing. If so explain to me why when I look at Page 23 of the Blood Angels codex the words Unique and Special are used exactly as I have described? Let's first look at at the top of the page shall we?

It says at the top right that models with UNIQUE wargear have that wargear's rules written into their Entry because no one else uses it. Does it define the weapon as special? Nope. So its pretty clear GW is using the word Unique to mean that only one exists of it.

Now let's go further down the page to where it says Blood Angels Special Rules. It says in the first paragraph that models in the BA army use rules that are a common to more than one type of unit. And it goes on to say that those Special Blood Angel rules that are shared are written on that page. Hence these rules are not unique, but just special. There is no indication on this page that Special and Unique are the same thing. It goes on to say that if a Special Rule (the bolded rules) aren't written into the codex to check the BRB. This implies that Special Rules are not unique as well and all fall under the same category as USR even though not every army has ATSKNF or Red Thirst. I don't see how the two words are at all the same.

Also please reply between quotations. Its pretty awful to have to read your words in tiny letters in the middle of what looks to be what I wrote. I had a hard time even understanding your blocks of text because of it.

Eldercaveman wrote:Not sure if this has been mentioned anywhere in this thread as I haven't read every post, but in the blood angels codex on page 23, angelic host. Under equiptment it clearer says, (paraphrase) some wargear is unique, if this is the case then its rules will be in the section of the character or something to that effect, it the gives the axe mortalis as a specific example of one of these UNIQUE rules, and if I remember rightly, codex takes precedence over rule book?

This was already mentioned. If you re read the codex entry it says its a Unique Weapon. When you look at the BRB it says that Unusual Weapons have UNIQUE rules. It never says that it is a Unique Weapon.

rogueeyes wrote:

chewielight wrote:

Really? That's your entire argument on this posting. I have no problem not using a definition if you don't and let's be honest that's exactly what you have done. You pull this card because my definition makes sense and yours doesn't. Funny is that you were using the words incorrectly and I choose to use what they mean by their definitions . You don't get to make statements without rebuttal , and as I have a good understanding of the English language decided to call you on it. Please refrain from responding if your going to try to teach someone the meaning of a word which you have done with using your opinion and not what the word means in total.

You've paid no attention to my logical argument which the FAQ's have reinforced at how the rules say weapons should work. I have used the definitions correctly. The fact is that you CANNOT use the full definition of a word in the context fo a rule set because language subsets different between regions let alone between different languages.

If I state that I walk down the road I have walked down segment A of the road. I now walk FURTHER down the road. During this movement I walk down segment B. I have walked an additional segment of the road. I have walked further on the road.

I start with a master crafted weapon. I add further rules to the weapon. I make it a power weapon. I do not add any more rules. I have no further rules.

I start with a power weapon. I add a rule that states any successful invulnerable saves must be re-rolled. I have an additional rule. I have a further rule I must implement.

The argument is not that difficult to understand and I have seen no proof to say that my logical interpretation of the rules are not correct. You say I am using the definition wrong when in fact it my reading of the rules is based on the definition of the wording within the book and within the English language.

Your argument would be based upon the argument that you can implement rules in any order that you so choose. If you implement rules in an incorrect order using ALL OF THE WORDS contained within the rules you can implement contradictions within the rules. By ignoring the word FURTHER you have done just that.

The correct way to determine if there are further special rules for a power weapon you must determine if there is any special rules to begin with. All special rules on power weapons that are stated before the power weapon rule do not make a power weapon unusual since they are not further special rules. They are in fact that basic special rules for that power weapon. These rules are implemented as you read them. As you read a rule you implement it based on the fact that they are interchangeable with the rules that are given.

A then B creates C
B then A creates D
C is not necessarily equal to D
C may be equal to D

You are falling into the basic fallacy that C must always be D when in fact what is C and what is D is determined by the order that you apply A and B rather then the simple existence of A and B.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Eldercaveman wrote:Not sure if this has been mentioned anywhere in this thread as I haven't read every post, but in the blood angels codex on page 23, angelic host. Under equiptment it clearer says, (paraphrase) some wargear is unique, if this is the case then its rules will be in the section of the character or something to that effect, it the gives the axe mortalis as a specific example of one of these UNIQUE rules, and if I remember rightly, codex takes precedence over rule book?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Not sure if this has been mentioned anywhere in this thread as I haven't read every post, but in the blood angels codex on page 23, angelic host. Under equiptment it clearer says, (paraphrase) some wargear is unique, if this is the case then its rules will be in the section of the character or something to that effect, it the gives the axe mortalis as a specific example of one of these UNIQUE rules, and if I remember rightly, codex takes precedence over rule book?

It states that the wargear is unique. Wargear being unique does not mean that it has unique rules.

I have a Big Stick. Only an the Ork Warboss Zartan has the Big Stick. The Big Stick is stated has being a power klaw. The Big Stick has no special rules other than it has a special name and is only used by Zartan. No one else can use this wargear. It is unique to Zartan but it has no unique nor special rules.

Unique wargear != unique rules
Unique wargear != special rules

Special wargear != unique rules
Special wargear != special rules

Ub3rb3n wrote:If I have a force staff with nothing attached it is S: user ap4 I:user, but then I put master craft on it which allows me to re roll a hit it doesn't make it unusual it is still the same just I can re roll one hit

This thread is pointless anyone trying to argue Dante's axe is his initiative is a poop tard

Asteroth is ap 3 while daunte is ap 2

Ub3rb3n wrote:If I have a force staff with nothing attached it is S: user ap4 I:user, but then I put master craft on it which allows me to re roll a hit it doesn't make it unusual it is still the same just I can re roll one hit

This thread is pointless anyone trying to argue Dante's axe is his initiative is a poop tard

Asteroth is ap 3 while daunte is ap 2

azreal13 wrote:Those arguing that master crafted makes a power weapon unusual and therefore AP3 regardless of how it's modelled have to explain to all the Vulcan C:.SM players that their Thunder Hammers are all AP3

Brother Ramses wrote:

Ub3rb3n wrote:If I have a force staff with nothing attached it is S: user ap4 I:user, but then I put master craft on it which allows me to re roll a hit it doesn't make it unusual it is still the same just I can re roll one hit

This thread is pointless anyone trying to argue Dante's axe is his initiative is a poop tard

Asteroth is ap 3 while daunte is ap 2

If you have a force weapon with no further rules you look to the model to determine type/rules. In your case, it would be determined to be type stave thus str +2, ap4, melee, concussive, force. If then choose to upgrade it via master-crafting, you are master-crafting a force weapon type stave, str +2, ap4, melee, concussive, force. Master-crafting a weapon after the fact does not make it special/unique as per the RAW, the force weapon wargear entry did not say it had further special rules. You may have gave it a special rule, but the wargear entry did not say it had further rules. Big difference between a weapon that has master-crafted and had master-crafting purchased.

Ub3rb3n wrote:

Brother Ramses wrote:

Ub3rb3n wrote:If I have a force staff with nothing attached it is S: user ap4 I:user, but then I put master craft on it which allows me to re roll a hit it doesn't make it unusual it is still the same just I can re roll one hit

This thread is pointless anyone trying to argue Dante's axe is his initiative is a poop tard

Asteroth is ap 3 while daunte is ap 2

If you have a force weapon with no further rules you look to the model to determine type/rules. In your case, it would be determined to be type stave thus str +2, ap4, melee, concussive, force. If then choose to upgrade it via master-crafting, you are master-crafting a force weapon type stave, str +2, ap4, melee, concussive, force. Master-crafting a weapon after the fact does not make it special/unique as per the RAW, the force weapon wargear entry did not say it had further special rules. You may have gave it a special rule, but the wargear entry did not say it had further rules. Big difference between a weapon that has master-crafted and had master-crafting purchased.

It's the same thing, how can you argue that my master crafted stave that I purchased is somehow different then a master crafted stave that tigurius has, your saying tigurius' stave should be and unusual force weapon

Orblivion wrote:If it was as cut and dry as you claim then this discussion wouldn't have gone on for 6 pages. I don't consider master-crafted to be a unique rule, so in my interpretation of the rule it wouldn't matter if it was a master-crafted weapon or a weapon that is master-crafted (whatever that even means).

Orblivion wrote:If it was as cut and dry as you claim then this discussion wouldn't have gone on for 6 pages. I don't consider master-crafted to be a unique rule, so in my interpretation of the rule it wouldn't matter if it was a master-crafted weapon or a weapon that is master-crafted (whatever that even means).

Orblivion wrote:If it was as cut and dry as you claim then this discussion wouldn't have gone on for 6 pages. I don't consider master-crafted to be a unique rule, so in my interpretation of the rule it wouldn't matter if it was a master-crafted weapon or a weapon that is master-crafted (whatever that even means).

azreal13 wrote:I think in all honesty there is a cut and dried answer, but a lot of people who don't want that to be it. Coupled with sufficient wriggle room in the wording and ta-dah! 6 pages of posts.

Dante being I6 is still useful as you will almost never fail a hit and run test but change is always difficult to adjust to, and people want things that worked for them to stay around.

I putting together a unit of SG with plasma pistols and axe glaives to out the fear of god into any teq units I encounter!

Brother Ramses wrote:

azreal13 wrote:I think in all honesty there is a cut and dried answer, but a lot of people who don't want that to be it. Coupled with sufficient wriggle room in the wording and ta-dah! 6 pages of posts.

Dante being I6 is still useful as you will almost never fail a hit and run test but change is always difficult to adjust to, and people want things that worked for them to stay around.

I putting together a unit of SG with plasma pistols and axe glaives to out the fear of god into any teq units I encounter!

And you have every right to house rule that as you please because it is 100% against the RAW because you have absolutely zero permission to look at what is modeled to determine type and rules.

Glaive Encarmines and the Axe of Mortalis both have a further special rule which in the first sentence of the rule on power weapons prevents you from looking at what is modeled to determine type and rules. This is the plain RAW of the rule.

Now it is yours and others opinion that master-crafted is not a unique rule. However, that opinion leaves you with a weapon that is special enough to not be classed by how it is modeled but not unique enough to be classed unusual. That puts them in a unidentified limbo with zero rules to follow for the weapon.

However, if you do consider master-crafted unique, you resolve the RAW conflict completely. The Axe of Mortalis and Glaive Encarmines are not identified by how they look because they have a further special rule (following the RAW) and are instead classed unusual with user str/init, ap3 (thus not leaving them in an unidentified limbo). The only thing broken by classing master-crafted as a unique rule is the fragile egos of those continuing to hold the opinion that it isn't.

azreal13 wrote:

Brother Ramses wrote:

azreal13 wrote:I think in all honesty there is a cut and dried answer, but a lot of people who don't want that to be it. Coupled with sufficient wriggle room in the wording and ta-dah! 6 pages of posts.

Dante being I6 is still useful as you will almost never fail a hit and run test but change is always difficult to adjust to, and people want things that worked for them to stay around.

I putting together a unit of SG with plasma pistols and axe glaives to out the fear of god into any teq units I encounter!

And you have every right to house rule that as you please because it is 100% against the RAW because you have absolutely zero permission to look at what is modeled to determine type and rules.

Glaive Encarmines and the Axe of Mortalis both have a further special rule which in the first sentence of the rule on power weapons prevents you from looking at what is modeled to determine type and rules. This is the plain RAW of the rule.

Now it is yours and others opinion that master-crafted is not a unique rule. However, that opinion leaves you with a weapon that is special enough to not be classed by how it is modeled but not unique enough to be classed unusual. That puts them in a unidentified limbo with zero rules to follow for the weapon.

However, if you do consider master-crafted unique, you resolve the RAW conflict completely. The Axe of Mortalis and Glaive Encarmines are not identified by how they look because they have a further special rule (following the RAW) and are instead classed unusual with user str/init, ap3 (thus not leaving them in an unidentified limbo). The only thing broken by classing master-crafted as a unique rule is the fragile egos of those continuing to hold the opinion that it isn't.

Sigh.

Thank you for restating the arguement that I have totally understood and decided is incorrect.

I will reiterate my reasons why.

The BRB states a weapon is an unusual power weapon "if a weapon has its own unique close combat rules"
That is a direct quote.

By definition, Master Crafted specifically is not a unique rule. It is a universal rule that can be applied to many weapons in many units across many codexes. Master crafted often doesn't receive any further explanation in the codex entry, unique rules always do. Therefore a weapon being only master crafted with no other associated special rules cannot be considered a unique special weapon in game terms. In fluff terms absolutely, but not in game terms.

This is why the Executioners Axe is an unusual weapon and the Axe Mortalis isn't.

While I can understand why people take the other view, I believe this to be the weaker argument, and assuming it does get FAQed I believe this is the way it will go, especially as the Blood Crozius has already set a precedent.

edit got my terms muddled

Orblivion wrote:Two can play at that game.

Reference BA codex, pg 88 Lemartes

Wargear:
*Power armour
*Bolt pistol
*The Blood Crozius
*Frag and Krak grenades
*Jump pack
*Rosarius

Cross referencing pg 43 as directed, The Blood Crozius

The Blood Crozius: "...The Blood Crozius is a master-crafted power weapon."

Reference BA 6th Edtion FAQ, pg 2 Lemartes, Guardian of the Lost, The Blood Crozius

“The Blood Crozius is a master-crafted power maul.”

See how being master-crafted does not magically make it an unusual weapon?

Kommissar Kel wrote:whether the blood crozius is an unusual power weapon or not does not matter one lick: the rules will be Identical.

If not an unusual Power weapon: A Master crafted Power Maul: S+2, AP4, Melee, Concussion, master Crafted.

If an Unusual Power weapon: S+2, AP4, Melee, Concussion, master Crafted.

This is because as an unusual weapon one of it's special rules is "Power Maul".

Kommissar Kel wrote:whether the blood crozius is an unusual power weapon or not does not matter one lick: the rules will be Identical.

If not an unusual Power weapon: A Master crafted Power Maul: S+2, AP4, Melee, Concussion, master Crafted.

If an Unusual Power weapon: S+2, AP4, Melee, Concussion, master Crafted.

This is because as an unusual weapon one of it's special rules is "Power Maul".

Kommissar Kel wrote:Since when does a Rod not look like a rod?

The Blood Crozius(or, any crozius Arcanum) is a Rod in model; a Power Maul, determined via model, includes Rods.

Kommissar Kel wrote:Since when does a Rod not look like a rod?

The Blood Crozius(or, any crozius Arcanum) is a Rod in model; a Power Maul, determined via model, includes Rods.

Brother Ramses wrote:

Kommissar Kel wrote:Since when does a Rod not look like a rod?

The Blood Crozius(or, any crozius Arcanum) is a Rod in model; a Power Maul, determined via model, includes Rods.

This.

And it was done across the board with exception to wolf priests and Ulrik the Slayer whose entries remain power weapons. So the assumption that the Blood Crozius FAQ is some kind of referendum on master-crafted power weapons is a logical fallacy as both master-crafted AND regular crozius arcanums were changed in their respective FAQ's.

Seriously, this assumption that GW can't find their ass with their own two hands ALL the time gets a little old, especially when it is used to try and backup an opinion based stance,

"Well despite what the rules say, GW writes crappy rules so we will just chalk it up to that!"

azreal13 wrote:Except "Power Maul" isn't a rule is it? Its effect it the result of a composite of other rules.

Your argument means that the Blood Crozius is AP3 as an unusual power weapon.

Or are you going to argue that this hypothetical "rule" somehow overrides the rule for unusual weapons in the brb?

Occam's razor here people, and if we're going to start debating rules that don't even occur except in people's minds as a means to justify their opinion I'm out of here!/quote]

Except, as is on evidence here, things can be misinterpreted and things can be exaggerated if someone thinks it offers an advantage. Most of the CAs I've seen on chaplain models have a fairly substantial imperial eagle on the top, and I can easily imagine someone arguing that it was an axe head if that's how they wanted their model to operate.

Kommissar Kel wrote:No, I listed the AP of the blood crozius in either sense 2 posts ago(Hint: it was 4)

Power Maul is a Rule. You don't have your Power sword Striking at +2 S and AP4 with the Concussion special rule now do you?

Yes, I will absolutely debate that a "power weapon" with Specific rules declaring it a specific Sub-type is a "rule".

This is the exact same as a Nemesis Daemon Hammer.
The Daemon Hammer is an Unusual Force weapon, it also
"Uses the rules for Thunder Hammers". Thunder Hammers are not Force weapons, nor POwer weapons normally, so one of the Daemon Hammers rules is that is is a Thunder hammer. The Daemon Hammer is a Sx2, AP2, Force, Melee, concussive, Unwieldy, Specialist Weapon, that removes Psykers/Daemons wounded by it as a casualty if they fail a Ld test.

Orblivion wrote:

Kommissar Kel wrote:No, I listed the AP of the blood crozius in either sense 2 posts ago(Hint: it was 4)

Power Maul is a Rule. You don't have your Power sword Striking at +2 S and AP4 with the Concussion special rule now do you?

Yes, I will absolutely debate that a "power weapon" with Specific rules declaring it a specific Sub-type is a "rule".

This is the exact same as a Nemesis Daemon Hammer.
The Daemon Hammer is an Unusual Force weapon, it also
"Uses the rules for Thunder Hammers". Thunder Hammers are not Force weapons, nor POwer weapons normally, so one of the Daemon Hammers rules is that is is a Thunder hammer. The Daemon Hammer is a Sx2, AP2, Force, Melee, concussive, Unwieldy, Specialist Weapon, that removes Psykers/Daemons wounded by it as a casualty if they fail a Ld test.

Then what you are saying is that in the majority of cases, the unusual power weapon rule does absolutely nothing. In your opinion, the Axe Mortalis is exactly the same whether it is a power weapon or an unusual power weapon.

azreal13 wrote:A power maul is a weapon type that is defined by the rules of S+2, I, AP4, Concussive.

Kommissar Kel wrote:

This is a case of "it is what it is" see my reference to Nemesis Daemon Hammers in my prior post for quasi-related proof of concept(otherwise you could claim that Hammers are S as user, AP3 Force weapons with the Daemonbane rule, so basically nothing special at all).

Orblivion wrote:I haven't seen that to be the case anywhere though. Nemesis Daemon Hammer is a different situation as Thunder Hammers are not a subtype of power weapons, they are their own entry. I guess I'm just curious if you have seen any unusual power weapons defined as a power axe/maul.

Regardless, this discussion is now going in more directions than it was when I got involved and it is 3am. I'm out for now.