Can the mawloc attack hit a flyer or FMC automatically?

Discuss.

Just thinking about him popping out like a sandworm of arrakis is making me giggle.

No because you can only snap shot against fliers and it is a blast marker, which can not hit fliers.

lol FALSE. It's not a shooting attack, it can hit a flyer.

Anything using the small or large template cannot hit flyers at all unless it has the skyfire rule.

it's not a shooting attack. those limits applied to the types of shooting attacks allowed against flyers

sfshilo wrote:lol FALSE. It's not a shooting attack, it can hit a flyer.

Actually it will be unable to hit the flyer. Even if it is not a shooting attack, and can bypass the snap shot rule, you're missing the part about that flyers cannot be hit by a blast marker. Those rules are spelled out quite clearly in the flyers rules, so before you call someone wrong, present the rules to back up your argument.

jcress410 wrote:it's not a shooting attack. those limits applied to the types of shooting attacks allowed against flyers

P 81 it says nothing about 'shooting attacks' just that blast templates, large blast templates and flame templates cannot hit zooming flyers at all.

sfshilo wrote:lol FALSE. It's not a shooting attack, it can hit a flyer.

Re-read the zooming fliers rules.

Its not a shooting attack, it is not resolved in the shooting phase, nor is it a blast weapon so 'Hard to Hit' doesn't seem to be relevant.

EDIT
To further clarify

"Hard to Hit: Shots resolved at a Zooming flyer can only be resolved as Snap Shots. Template, blast and large blast weapons cannot hit Flyers in Zoom mode."

Terror from the deep is not a shot, not a blast weapon; it simply damages things underneath the template.

And I quote, "Shots resolved at a zooming flyer can only be resolved as snap shots"

It also states, "Template, blast and large blast WEAPONS cannot hit flyers in zoom mode."

It's not a weapon, it's a result of the mawlac exploding up out of the ground and destroying everything in it's path.

If it's not a weapon, it can hit a flyer. Notice it states, SHOTS; not area effects, not terrain effects, not non-shooting pskers attacks.

Flyers are not immune to all damage as much as people want them to be. (I should know I have alot of vendettas)

jcress410 wrote:it's not a shooting attack. those limits applied to the types of shooting attacks allowed against flyers

Actually not quite, it says template, blast, and large blast weapons cannot hit flyers in zoom mode. So if the flyer happened to be in hover mode, then Terror from the Deep could hit said flyer.

Terror from the deep is NOT a weapon, it's a giant MC bursting out of the ground wrecking everyones day.

"Template, blast and large blast WEAPONS cannot hit flyers in zoom mode."

Template, Blast, and large blast can not hit fliers.

(Though it it would not matter if it could, 1 Str 6 hit is hardly anything to fear, and zooming fliers have a cover save anyway.)

Starting on page 50 the weapons in the game are defined. You will not find the mawlac area effect there as it is not a weapon or shooting attack.

DeathReaper wrote:anything used to inflict damage on the enemy is a weapon, be it a Psychic power, or special rule a model has.

I'd love a page number for that.

and zooming fliers have a cover save anyway

Thats the funny thing here, Terror from the Deep is resolved in the movement phase. Evade only works in the shooting phase.

I'll admit I'm not posting this cause I think I found some sort of powerful counter to flyers, I just found it funny.

sfshilo wrote:And I quote, "Shots resolved at a zooming flyer can only be resolved as snap shots"

It also states, "Template, blast and large blast WEAPONS cannot hit flyers in zoom mode."

It's not a weapon, it's a result of the mawlac exploding up out of the ground and destroying everything in it's path.

If it's not a weapon, it can hit a flyer. Notice it states, SHOTS; not area effects, not terrain effects, not non-shooting pskers attacks.

Flyers are not immune to all damage as much as people want them to be. (I should know I have alot of vendettas)

The thing is, it is resolved as a weapon. It is a strength 6 AP 2 large blast. What it represents doesn't matter, what does matter is if the flyer is zooming someone is attempting to hit it with a large blast marker. Psychic powers are not weapons per say, but they do mimic them, and a psychic power with a blast marker is unable to hit a flyer.

It also hits the back armor, which is 10 for most flyers....S6 AP 2 is suddenly very nasty.

This reminds me of the ridiculous "psykers are not carrying a weapon" because it didn't explicitly say psychic shooting attacks are a weapon debate awhile ago.

If you want to insist your strength 6 AP 2 large blast that allows cover saves isn't a weapon that's fine but good luck finding opponents.

Considering flyers also cannot be assaulted you can't possibly imagine it's intended for Mawlocs to be able to hit flyers when nothing else in the entire game can.

Lone Dragoon wrote:The thing is, it is resolved as a weapon. It is a strength 6 AP 2 large blast. What it represents doesn't matter, what does matter is if the flyer is zooming someone is attempting to hit it with a large blast marker. Psychic powers are not weapons per say, but they do mimic them, and a psychic power with a blast marker is unable to hit a flyer.

Nitros14 wrote:If you want to insist your strength 6 AP 2 large blast that allows cover saves isn't a weapon that's fine but good luck finding opponents.

100% correct to the above.

winterman wrote:

DeathReaper wrote:anything used to inflict damage on the enemy is a weapon, be it a Psychic power, or special rule a model has.

I'd love a page number for that.

I'd love a page number for where they define "successful" or "Immune" in the BRB.

Some things need to fall back on the English definitions to be useful at all.

I threw up a larger question regarding non-shooting attack in INAT....

This is going to be a very repeated argument for anything that isn't a shooting attack on zooming flyers.

We can go around and around on this, we'll leave it up to the neckbeards to figure this one out.

Some others that come to mind....Njals storm calling powers, things that state they are "auto" hit (what takes precedence?) Mawlacs. Bomb Squigs.

Can anyone think of any others?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Thought of another, exploding flyer hitting another flyer....

Maledictions, take effect in the movement phase and don't appear to be affected by hard to hit. So Telekinetic power Objuration Mechanicum does not roll to hit, is not a weapon or shooting attack and seem to be a hard counter.

Grabbin Klaw might be able to kill non-hover flyers by not allowing them to move in the next phase. Even hover ones getting forced to move as skimmer (and thus be vulnerable next turn) could be useful.

Wrecking ball, although wether its a weapon or not hinges on the fact it can't be removed via weapon destroyed results.

Both Ork ones though is theory, not sure they have the range to pull it off. Funny thought though.

Also I'll have no issue finding opponents cause I don't care one way or other and will play it however my opponent wants to. As opposed to the others making declarations they can't back up with rules quotes.

DeathReaper wrote:No because you can only snap shot against fliers and it is a blast marker, which can not hit fliers.

This, except that the Flying MC must be Swooping. If it is gliding, then Mawloc can hit it.

kjolnir wrote:

DeathReaper wrote:No because you can only snap shot against fliers and it is a blast marker, which can not hit fliers.

This, except that the Flying MC must be Swooping. If it is gliding, then Mawloc can hit it.

Except nowhere does it say you can only snap shot against flyers. It says shots have to be resolved by snap fire rules. If a special rule or ability isn't a shot then how can this rule apply.

Infact you can vector strike flyers. Right there that's one caveat that is directly in the rules.
Sweep attacks. Another option.
Maledictions. Another.

This concept that Hard to Hit covers any and every possible thing that may come at a flyer is simply not supported by the rules. There are ways to get around it and so far I have yet to read anything that denys Terror from the Deep.

At best its ambiguous and in need of an FAQ.

winterman wrote:

Terror from the deep is not a shot, not a blast weapon; it simply damages things underneath the template.

Explain to me how something coming up from underneath the surface of the ground is going to hit a flying anything, particularly when swooping/zooming is specifically described as having meaningful levels of altitude sufficient to clear impassable terrain.

Sorry, the Mawloc attack is resolved exactly like a template weapon, and therefore cannot hit a zooming flyer or swooping FMC.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

winterman wrote:
Except nowhere does it say you can only snap shot against flyers. It says shots have to be resolved by snap fire rules.

So if I'm shooting by the snap fire rules, I'm not actually making a snap shot? Is that really your argument?

winterman wrote:Infact you can vector strike flyers. Right there that's one caveat that is directly in the rules.
Sweep attacks. Another option.
Maledictions. Another.

How many of those attacks are specifically called shooting attacks, and use templates?

Oh. Right.

winterman wrote:This concept that Hard to Hit covers any and every possible thing that may come at a flyer is simply not supported by the rules.

Nobody has made that assertion. You sir are creating strawmen.

winterman wrote:There are ways to get around it and so far I have yet to read anything that denys Terror from the Deep.

Except that TFtD is has a profile exactly like a weapon, is resolved like a weapon, and uses a template like a weapon. And template weapons can't hit zooming/swooping flyers.

Zooming fliers are immune to large pie plates. It's a simple matter of elevation. Unless the mawlok is modeled with wings it's not going to hit anything flying at an altitude of 2 kilometers (about 6000 feet)

Okay, so what DOES happen when a Mawloc Deep Strikes under the base of a Flyer? Correct me if I'm wrong, but the Flyer would be moved, right? How far would the flyer base have to be moved? Well, the TftD rule tells us to move it to the outside of the blast marker. So the Flyer has to move outside of the blast marker, would count as destroyed if couldn't move outside the marker radius, but shouldn't take the initial damage from the Mawloc arriving on the board? Nahhhh...that just doesn't seem right.

(Language warning!)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jBizgLZX7W0

That is all.

Appears to work by RAW, since Zooming Flyers are only immune to blast/large blast weapons and TFFD is not a "weapon". Simple loophole, something something house rules.

I'd side with the Mawloc on this one. Hard to Hit specifically sights template, blast, and large blast weapons; not special abilities. They could have written "all template, blast effects" but they didn't. An oversight maybe, but perfectly fair.
It's not even that far fetched of an effect. When the Mawloc emerges, I'm sure a good geyser of rock comes with it.

This does need a faq, but we all know how the faq is going to go...

As hilarious as it is, even if this use for mawloc was legal the model wouldn't be worth taking

I love the idea, cinematically. And isn't that what 6e is all about? Lights, camera, action!

Seems fine.

A little lunch on the wing, as it were.

kjolnir wrote:Explain to me how something coming up from underneath the surface of the ground is going to hit a flying anything, particularly when swooping/zooming is specifically described as having meaningful levels of altitude sufficient to clear impassable terrain.

Sorry, the Mawloc attack is resolved exactly like a template weapon, and therefore cannot hit a zooming flyer or swooping FMC.

--Strawman arguement. Doesn't matter how it could do it in real life (granted as mentioned rocks or just like in Dune movie how the thing almost ate that flyer).
--Mawloc attack is not resolved like a template weapon, or a blast weapon for that matter.

So if I'm shooting by the snap fire rules, I'm not actually making a snap shot? Is that really your argument?

No my argument is Hard to Hit says SHOTS must use snap fire rules. If something is NOT a SHOT then it can't possibly be made to snap shot. Mawloc attack is not a shot, so caveats regarding it not being able to be used (per snap shot rules) are irrelevant.

winterman wrote:Infact you can vector strike flyers. Right there that's one caveat that is directly in the rules.
Sweep attacks. Another option.
Maledictions. Another.

How many of those attacks are specifically called shooting attacks, and use templates?

Oh. Right.

Ohh funny you say that. Mawloc attack is not a shot either, nor is it a weapon that uses blast or templates.

winterman wrote:This concept that Hard to Hit covers any and every possible thing that may come at a flyer is simply not supported by the rules.

Nobody has made that assertion. You sir are creating strawmen.

You quoted a guy who said you had to snap shot at flyers. I didn't make the strawman I just bashed on it a bit. Funny too you accuse me of strawmanning since I'm not the guy using real life "can't possibly hit a flyer" in a rules discussion.

winterman wrote:There are ways to get around it and so far I have yet to read anything that denys Terror from the Deep.

Except that TFtD is has a profile exactly like a weapon, is resolved like a weapon, and uses a template like a weapon. And template weapons can't hit zooming/swooping flyers.

What is the range, how does it hit, when is it resolved. Its nothing like a weapon except it causes wounds and damage. Much like the things I already mentioned to give some backing examples of other things in the game that ignore Hard to Hit.

You are welcome to continue arguing with me but I am done until someone comes up with something other then continuing to say Terror from the Deep is a blast weapon or attacking my ability to find opponents.

jwolf wrote:I love the idea, cinematically. And isn't that what 6e is all about? Lights, camera, action!

I know right? Some at my store called 6ed Michael Bay 40k. If a mawloc busting the crap outta a flyer isn't Bayesque I dunno what it

winterman wrote:
What is the range,

0.

winterman wrote:how does it hit

Automatically, just like every other template weapon in the game.

winterman wrote:when is it resolved.

During the movement phase, just like Vector Strike. Which counts as a shooting attack when your shooting phase rolls around.

winterman wrote:Its nothing like a weapon except it causes wounds and damage.

And uses a template. And has a profile like a weapon.

winterman wrote:Much like the things I already mentioned to give some backing examples of other things in the game that ignore Hard to Hit.

And things that don't.

winterman wrote:You are welcome to continue arguing with

winterman wrote: me but I am done until someone comes up with something other then continuing to say Terror from the Deep is a blast weapon or attacking my ability to find opponents.

It is not a ranged attack. It is not a weapon.

It is a special rule with a description of what it does.

Seems to me that this is simple. Could the Mawloc damage any fast vehicles or skimmers in 5e?

Yep, and while they are not one in the same, Mawloc can still hit those, so should be able to hit a "flyer".

In other words, what do you think a Vendetta does around the battle field, fly, no it might not be a "flyer" according to the rules, but it sure doesn't land every so often so it can shoot at the enemy.

Why would a flyer be any different?

kirsanth wrote:It is not a ranged attack. It is not a weapon.

It is a special rule with a description of what it does.

I tend to agree.

I think I was just taking issue more with the logic used than the conclusion.

Can´t stay out of this one so i would say no to hit a flyer.

Why?

Page 100, placing blast markers, i consider the tfd to happen att ground level and accordingly can not affect anything not at the same level.
(Skimmers are at ground level, flyers are not)

The Deepstrike definitely has to be done at ground level.

The results of the DS, involving TftD have the advanced rules describing how to use them.

None of them involve using a blast weapon or its restrictions.

RAW it works, RAI is a little muddy.


On one hand, it could be explained as the Mawloc jumping high into the air and catching the flyer(Flyers are strafing the ground, not zooming thousands of feet in the air)

But on the other hand, it can be explained that the Mawloc has no way of telling if the flyer is where it is cause its not touching the ground. So you could not hit the flyer with the Mawloc.

If it leads to more use of Mawlocs I do not see even many non-Tyranid players complaining, regardless.

Grey Templar wrote:RAW it works, RAI is a little muddy.


On one hand, it could be explained as the Mawloc jumping high into the air and catching the flyer(Flyers are strafing the ground, not zooming thousands of feet in the air)

In the Flying MC description, it does say that flying MCs can attain high altitudes.

So not only would the Mawloc not know where it is, would it even be able to jump that high?

It's a fluff-based argument. RAW I believe the Mawloc can hit a Swooping/Zooming flyer. I don't necessary think it SHOULD be that way, but that's a different argument.

GW should FAQ it, maybe make it so it can hit it, but the Flyer gets a 3+ dodge save against the hit.

If you are going that way. . .
I have yet to see a model that the fully built Mawloc could not touch because it was too high off the table.

Sure those things CAN fly uber-high. But they obviously are not or the ranges would be measured VERY differently - see measuring ranges with vertical elements.

kirsanth wrote:If it leads to more use of Mawlocs I do not see even many non-Tyranid players complaining, regardless.

I'm a Nid plauyer, and I honestly think those points are better spent on Trygons and flying MCs. I haven't played a serious game yet, but I don't have any near-term plans to take a Mawloc.

I'm not contesting that the mawloc COULD hit a flyer in real life(if it existed), but I'm saying that the Mawloc would not know where the flyer was while he tunneling underground like he does with units that are on the ground. So he can't target the flyer because he doesn't know where it is.

That would depend on what kind of flyer you got, as an ork player i got some bombers and i promise you that they are not that close to the ground since it would be way to difficult to see those fancy bomb explosions if you are to close to the ground.

I would probarly go for the dice roll IF the nid player actually built his Mawloc "model" to be able to reach the flier (The flying base is quite high). A little like sometimes he will reach the flyer, sometimes not.

kjolnir wrote:

kirsanth wrote:If it leads to more use of Mawlocs I do not see even many non-Tyranid players complaining, regardless.

I'm a Nid plauyer, and I honestly think those points are better spent on Trygons and flying MCs. I haven't played a serious game yet, but I don't have any near-term plans to take a Mawloc.

Sure, and with the changed to Force/Power weapons Tyrannofexes got a lot more viable.

That was kind of my point with that.

kirsanth wrote:If you are going that way. . .
I have yet to see a model that the fully built Mawloc could not touch because it was too high off the table.

Being a Flyer allows me to pass OVER impassable terrain.

What if there is impassable terrain taller than the Mawloc? Doesn't that mean that I can fly outside of the Mawloc's reach?

I'm not seriously proposing this, just discussing the thought process behind what you said.

Grey Templar wrote:I'm not contesting that the mawloc COULD hit a flyer in real life(if it existed), but I'm saying that the Mawloc would not know where the flyer was while he tunneling underground like he does with units that are on the ground. So he can't target the flyer because he doesn't know where it is.

Not touching that one. But, TftD works even if it hits a unit by accident - see scatter rules.

Thats what i'm saying. You can't place the template under the flyer, but it could scatter under it. House rule of course.

kirsanth wrote:

kjolnir wrote:

kirsanth wrote:If it leads to more use of Mawlocs I do not see even many non-Tyranid players complaining, regardless.

I'm a Nid plauyer, and I honestly think those points are better spent on Trygons and flying MCs. I haven't played a serious game yet, but I don't have any near-term plans to take a Mawloc.

Sure, and with the changed to Force/Power weapons Tyrannofexes got a lot more viable.

That was kind of my point with that.

Totally. I haven't taken any TFexes yet, but I've not ruled it out, either. I could trade them for a Trygon or two, maybe.

Thing is, with Hive Commander on my Hive Tyrant and the new reinforcement rules, my stuff comes in on a 2+ on turn 2. Popping up a Trygon or two behind someone's Dreadnought or Vindicator and glancing it to pieces is really temping, and probably better than popping it (maybe) at 48" with a TFex.

And, if I get lucky on my Warlord Trait roll, I can re-roll failed reserves.

Boldtaar wrote:Can´t stay out of this one so i would say no to hit a flyer.

Why?

Page 100, placing blast markers, i consider the tfd to happen att ground level and accordingly can not affect anything not at the same level.
(Skimmers are at ground level, flyers are not)

Only way this logic works is if the Mawloc comes up on a Ruin that the Flyer happens to be flying over(Base on top of said ruins); and even then it fails because TFTD is not a shooting attack(Unless FAQ'd otherwise, it hits all models on all levels of the ruins).

Also, The Base of the flyer is very much always on the ground; as Models cannot move on/across the base, and enemy models must remain at least 1" from the base at all times.

Mawloc can eat a Plane until we get rules that states otherwise, it's attack is not a shot, and hits everything in an infinite cylinder.

So it's agreed, then. Worms will eat Birds in 6th. Excellent!

Relax, and enjoy the love that is a Mawloc actually on the table.

Kommissar Kel wrote:

Also, The Base of the flyer is very much always on the ground; as Models cannot move on/across the base, and enemy models must remain at least 1" from the base at all times.

Same with a Stormraven. If I target a non-Zooming Stormraven with a template weapon and the template scatters off the Stormraven and over infantry, are the infantry hit with the template, or are they safe since the template was at a different level?

By that are you meaning a Blast Marker/Template?

No matter: yes, absolutely yes they are hit.

What I was saying is that Flyers are always at ground level, or on top of Buildings/ruins.

Flyers are where there base is I guess is what I am trying to say.

winterman wrote:Its not a shooting attack, it is not resolved in the shooting phase, nor is it a blast weapon so 'Hard to Hit' doesn't seem to be relevant.

EDIT
To further clarify

"Hard to Hit: Shots resolved at a Zooming flyer can only be resolved as Snap Shots. Template, blast and large blast weapons cannot hit Flyers in Zoom mode."

Terror from the deep is not a shot, not a blast weapon; it simply damages things underneath the template.

In all of the FAQs, GW refers to the operative language as the "penultimate sentence." IMO the language must all be read together for context and cannot be severed. The second sentence should not be taken as a rule in an of itself. When broken down the rule looks like the following:

Hard to Hit:
1) Shots at a flier, 2) that are zooming, 3) must be resolved as Snap Shots.
a) Types of Shots that cannot hit a Flyer in Zoom mode
i) templates; ii) blast; iii) large blast

If the Mawloc attack is not a shooting attack then then the prohibition against large blast affecting flyers in zoom mode does not apply according to the "Hard to Hit" rule.

Some other rule would have to be quoted in order to prevent the mawloc attack from working on a flyer.

I think this one is pretty simple. Its resolved like a template. You can't hit the flyer... I don't know why this is so hard.

Darkwynn wrote:I think this one is pretty simple. Its resolved like a template. You can't hit the flyer... I don't know why this is so hard.

Because the BRB says template WEAPONS. The Mawloc TFtD attack isn't a weapon.

Darkwynn wrote:Its resolved like a template. . . I don't know why this is so hard.

It is not resolved in any way like a template.

To be fair though, it isn't hard; it's just a result of the Mawloc Deepstriking, not using a weapon.

kirsanth wrote:

Darkwynn wrote:Its resolved like a template. . . I don't know why this is so hard.

It is not resolved in any way like a template.

Well...that's not ENTIRELY accurate. After all, it IS a large blast template and is DOES scatter 2D6...

Still though, it's not a weapon, and the rules state that the only things that can't hit zooming/swooping flyers are any shooting weapon that doesn't roll to-hit, including template, blast, and large blast weapons.

What do you think this means for Psychic shooting attacks that don't require to-hit, like Blood Boil?

kjolnir wrote:Well...that's not ENTIRELY accurate.

Yes it is.
Blast markers are not templates.

kirsanth wrote:

kjolnir wrote:Well...that's not ENTIRELY accurate.

Yes it is.
Blast markers are not templates.

Did you actually read anything?

You said you it was not resolved in any way like a template

I pointed out two ways in which they were similar.

So, they are similar.

Geez people.

Still, that doesn't change the end result.

kirsanth wrote:

Darkwynn wrote:Its resolved like a template. . . I don't know why this is so hard.

It is not resolved in any way like a template.

kjolnir wrote:

kirsanth wrote:

kjolnir wrote:Well...that's not ENTIRELY accurate.

Yes it is.
Blast markers are not templates.

Did you actually read anything?

You said you it was not resolved in any way like a template

When you see it. . . .

The Tyranid FAQ clearly says that TFTD uses a blast MARKER, not a template. So Mawlocs can hit flyers, GW wouldn't issue a FAQ replacing the word template with the word marker for TFTD unless it is not a blast template. Very easy and clear.

I see both sides to the discussion. Personally, I lean pretty strongly towards the "it don't work" interpretation, but your milage may vary.

In our group over the weekend, we discussed this and squiggs and Death Ray specifically. We landed at no, it doesn't work if the Flyer is Zooming. Zooming Flyers seem pretty specific about what can hit them and what cannot. Snap Shot rules seems to further clarify even with an example.

The Zooming Flyers rules concept is new. So, as a brand new game mechanic, I give them a little slack (not much)...

However, if you read the Flyer and Snap Shot rules for context, it seem to have a mechanic spelled out pretty clearly - That is, only Snap Shot and Skyfire affect them.

The description, perhaps poorly, uses the word 'shot' (lower case) but it's a generic term. However, our read is that if your 'shot / release / beam / attack / whatever' doesn't have a BS, as noted in Snap Shot, then you can't shoot / release / pop up / whatever at the Zooming Flyer - again, by our read. The reason is, the Zooming Flyers rules seem pretty specific about what can affect them and Snap Shot goes further to explain, rule out, and even provide an example. Outside of using the lowercase word "shot" in the Flyer rules, it seems they did a pretty nice job to explain it.

Therefore, from our read, everything else, squiggs... or Mawlocs... Deathray... just can't get high enough and are not quick enough... or whatever fluffy cinimatic scenerio you would like to think of... just isn't good enough, the 41st millenium zooming flyer is just took quick... as was our take away and as outlined in the BRB.

Snap Shot - the only way a Zooming Flyer is intended to be shot at... even gives an example that the Necron Monolith special rule won't work... which offers some guidance on the intention of the rule.

Until a FAQ update, if you and your opponent don't agree, Roll a D6 to see how it works for your game (that is a rule in the BRB)... you guys are just wasting valuable game time otherwise...

Good luck,

Tactica wrote:I see both sides to the discussion.

Me too.
I also understood why people thought it denied cover saves.
I also understood that they were wrong - but I understood why they made the mistake.

So the BRB on page 13 says any shooting attack which does not use BS to resolve a hit cannot be used as a snap shot.

So Death Rays and auto-hit Psychic shooting attacks are out.

Mawloc? Still in, I think.

mawloc is not in any way, ever a snap-shot; nor any other type of shooting attack.

This is exactly why it can hit a Flyer.

It is not a weapon, it is a special attack.

It is not a Shot, nor a shooting attack, it is a Special attack.

Did anyone even bother to read the Nid FAQ... it specifically says to replace the word 'template' with 'marker'. Make of that what you will.

Dozer Blades wrote:Did anyone even bother to read the Nid FAQ... it specifically says to replace the word 'template' with 'marker'. Make of that what you will.

Ohhh, good call. By removing the word template specifically, it's obvious the sand worm is gonna eat that flyer.

Dozer Blades wrote:Did anyone even bother to read the Nid FAQ... it specifically says to replace the word 'template' with 'marker'. Make of that what you will.

Notice how that bit is not in Magenta?

Yeah that has been there since just after the Nid Codex was released.

What it means is that there is no such thing as a Blast Template(in 5th); you have a Template, which is the teardrop shaped thing, and then you have Blast Markers(the circular 3" and 5" things with little holes in the center). This still holds true; and is a Terminology required since templates don't scatter.

The Mawloc marker will hit the Flyer anyway because that Flyer model has no choice but to be displaced outside that marker (assuming it isn't destroyed) by an emerging Mawloc. The Flyer can't convieniently 'ignore' the damage yet still be displaced, and there is nothing suggesting the Mawloc won't move that Flyer model.

triplare wrote:The Mawloc marker will hit the Flyer anyway because that Flyer model has no choice but to be displaced outside that marker (assuming it isn't destroyed) by an emerging Mawloc. The Flyer can't convieniently 'ignore' the damage yet still be displaced, and there is nothing suggesting the Mawloc won't move that Flyer model.

Excellent.

What I find funny in this discussion is that no one has quoted the actual rules for terror from the deep yet. Shouldn't the exact wording of it shed some light on this situation? I would but I do not the codex with me.

To me it feels like the Mawloc shouldn't be able to hurt it. That's the intention of the hard to hit zooming flyer rules. I would house rule it to simply move the flyer out of the way without hurting it. That's an unbiased view from someone who actually has and uses a Mawloc.

Lithophile wrote:What I find funny in this discussion is that no one has quoted the actual rules for terror from the deep yet. Shouldn't the exact wording of it shed some light on this situation?

It's largely irrelevant, oddly enough.
It's the result of a deepstrike.
Not a shooting attack or a weapon use, which is the only things the fliers are protected against.

Counter-intuitive as it is, it relates to why I mentioned cover saves; most think they should not be viable, but the rules allow for it.

Nothing prevents the special rule from affecting ANY UNIT in the game.
It literally works on titans.

kirsanth wrote:

Tactica wrote:I see both sides to the discussion.

Me too.
I also understood why people thought it denied cover saves.
I also understood that they were wrong - but I understood why they made the mistake.

Snarky comments don't help...

They help me.

kirsanth wrote:They help me.

Also the readers.

kjolnir wrote:

kirsanth wrote:

Darkwynn wrote:Its resolved like a template. . . I don't know why this is so hard.

It is not resolved in any way like a template.

Well...that's not ENTIRELY accurate. After all, it IS a large blast template and is DOES scatter 2D6...

Still though, it's not a weapon, and the rules state that the only things that can't hit zooming/swooping flyers are any shooting weapon that doesn't roll to-hit, including template, blast, and large blast weapons.

What do you think this means for Psychic shooting attacks that don't require to-hit, like Blood Boil?

There is a difference between things that automatically hit and things that don't roll to hit at all. Blood Boil automatically hits.

Grey Templar wrote:

kjolnir wrote:

kirsanth wrote:

Darkwynn wrote:Its resolved like a template. . . I don't know why this is so hard.

It is not resolved in any way like a template.

Well...that's not ENTIRELY accurate. After all, it IS a large blast template and is DOES scatter 2D6...

Still though, it's not a weapon, and the rules state that the only things that can't hit zooming/swooping flyers are any shooting weapon that doesn't roll to-hit, including template, blast, and large blast weapons.

What do you think this means for Psychic shooting attacks that don't require to-hit, like Blood Boil?

There is a difference between things that automatically hit and things that don't roll to hit at all. Blood Boil automatically hits.

Shooting attacks that do not use BS cannot hit Swooping/Zooming Flyers, because they cannot Snap Fire. That includes Psychic shooting attacks that do not use BS. Tyranid Warp Lances, for example, can Snap Fire because they use a BS to hit. Blood Boil does not, and is a psychic shooting attack.

Ok, and this is neither.

This is a result of Deepstrike.

There is no shooting, not even really attacking. Attacked maybe, but debatable - just hit is more true.

Other rules have no real bearing.

jwolf wrote:I love the idea, cinematically. And isn't that what 6e is all about? Lights, camera, action!

This happened to me a couple of weeks ago actually. Fantastic game all around, beautifully painted behemoth army as well. But the crowning moment was when his Mawloc erupted underneath my Valkryie and wrecked it, followed by my Lord Commissar and the veterans desperately trying to fight off a gaunt swarm and the Mawloc, even managing to get it down to 2 wounds before biting the dust. It was like something straight out of a movie.

It's a little sad that people will argue to such lengths over these things when really this allows for incredibly awesome moments, and its not even really gamebreaking.

Hazardous Harry wrote:It's a little sad that people will argue to such lengths over these things when really this allows for incredibly awesome moments, and its not even really gamebreaking.

Realistically speaking, this is an argument for allowing it - since it is not even really gamebreaking.

If Terror From The Deep can hit zooming flyers (and seeing as 40k is supposed to be a narrative, cinematic! game now, I'd allow it in the spirit of fun), then so can my Void Mine. I'm perfectly fine with this.

Loch wrote:If Terror From The Deep can hit zooming flyers (and seeing as 40k is supposed to be a narrative, cinematic! game now, I'd allow it in the spirit of fun), then so can my Void Mine. I'm perfectly fine with this.

Bombing does not correlate.

Dropping Bombs is firing a weapon. Shooting Blast Markers cannot hit Flyers.

Dropping a Void Mine specifically does not count against the number of weapons the Voidraven Bomber may fire that turn, per the DE FAQ. It's a Blast Marker that gets dropped in the Movement Phase, not the Shooting Phase. It's just like Terror From the Deep in that it uses a weapon profile to resolve an attack, but that attack happens in the Movement Phase, not the Shooting Phase.

All true.
I am assuming you simply missed the "Note that this counts as firing a weapon" part of page 47.

Lots of things in this game "count as firing a weapon" and don't require a roll to hit. Blood Lance is a psychic shooting attack that automatically hits flyers (for now).

Loch wrote:Lots of things in this game "count as firing a weapon" and don't require a roll to hit. Blood Lance is a psychic shooting attack that automatically hits flyers (for now).

It's a blast. It counts as firing a weapon.
TFtD doesn't count as firing a weapon.

They aren't comparable.

Would the Mawloc's ability cause damage to units on more than one level of a ruin, per se? I believe that even though the Flier's base is at ground level, the actual model is located several floors up.

Correct me if I'm wrong but it says to place a base-sized marker on the table when the Mawloc deep strikes and any model under the marker is hit. Since the actual flier model can not possibly be under the marker, it can't be hit. The same as in an absurd example of a Mawloc DSin into a ruin and only hitting troops on the ground floor.

So, in short; the game breaks (IMHO) because the model isn't under the marker so can't be damaged or moved which means the Mawloc suffers a mishap as other models are considered dangerous terrain (might be mixing a little 5th e in there as I'm not up on 6th's ds rules).

agnosto wrote:I believe that even though the Flier's base is at ground level, the actual model is located several floors up.

Then why do the ranges measured for their weapons not reflect this?
No, WYSIWYG with TLOS.

I think we all WANT this to be viable, because it's just hilarious. Om nom nom. Also, pretty sure the flyer is in the clear here. It avoids templates.

agnosto wrote:Would the Mawloc's ability cause damage to units on more than one level of a ruin, per se? I believe that even though the Flier's base is at ground level, the actual model is located several floors up.

Correct me if I'm wrong but it says to place a base-sized marker on the table when the Mawloc deep strikes and any model under the marker is hit. Since the actual flier model can not possibly be under the marker, it can't be hit. The same as in an absurd example of a Mawloc DSin into a ruin and only hitting troops on the ground floor.

So, in short; the game breaks (IMHO) because the model isn't under the marker so can't be damaged or moved which means the Mawloc suffers a mishap as other models are considered dangerous terrain (might be mixing a little 5th e in there as I'm not up on 6th's ds rules).

I detailed this a few pages back: the Mawloc hits everything in the cylinder of it's marker, on all floors in ruins.

Kommissar Kel wrote:

I detailed this a few pages back: the Mawloc hits everything in the cylinder of it's marker, on all floors in ruins.

Sorry I missed it. Source? Because it would be the only effect in the game with infinite capabilities for damage (AFAIK), and there's nothing in the rule or rulebook to support it since template effects are mono-dimensional (at least they were in 5th). Please bear with me, I'm still going through the 6th edition book and so I don't know what all is covered.

It is not a blast weapon.

Using the rules for blast weapons, or for idiocy's sake template weapons, is entirely unfounded.

The rules for the Mawloc only relate to the results of its deepstrike.

Randomly/Arbitrarily adding other rules for weapons, or shooting, or assault will only confuse you - they do not apply.

kirsanth wrote:

agnosto wrote:I believe that even though the Flier's base is at ground level, the actual model is located several floors up.

Then why do the ranges measured for their weapons not reflect this?
No, WYSIWYG with TLOS.

Page 80 states that distance to flyers is measured to the hull and the base is ignored except in two, very specific situations. I still believe the Mawloc has no affect on the flyer.

Fact: The Mawloc rule states that the model must be covered by the template, which is placed upon the table, to be affected.
Fact: The BRB explains that flier bases are ignored except in two very specific situations.

Mawloc can't hurt fliers.

1: Stop using template rules.
2: Stop using weapon rules.

kirsanth wrote:1: Stop using template rules.
2: Stop using weapon rules.

Not using either. Using flyer rules. Page 80 says the base is ignored.

Being rude does not improve the conversation.

Unless you are mis-applying shooting rules I miss or mis-read your point.
Other than stating that my point that rules are being misused is rude - which is rude.

agnosto wrote:Fact: The Mawloc rule states that the model must be covered by the template, which is placed upon the table, to be affected.

If the marker is ON the table, then it would never hit any models, as nothing would be able to be UNDER the marker. So either you place the marker ON the table and no models are ever affected, or you hold the marker OVER the table, and any models partially or wholly under the marker are affected.

kirsanth wrote:Unless you are mis-applying shooting rules I miss or mis-read your point.
Other than stating that my point that rules are being misused is rude - which is rude.

I fail to see how I am misapplying rules when we are talking about two entirely different things.

Thank you for editing your post regarding "idiocy".

Page 80: (emphasis mine)

FLYERS AND MEASURING
Flyers haveflyingbasesthat suspend them abovethe
battlefield. However, distances are still measured to and from
the Flyer's hull,with the exceptionsof the vehicle'sweapons
and Fire Points, which all work as normal. The base of a Flyer is
effectively ignored, except for when:
•The Flyeris being assaulted, in which case models may
move into contact with the vehicle's hull, its base or both.
• Modelsare embarking or disembarking from the Flyer,in
which case the base of the Flyer is used as the Access Point.

Even more interesting is the section regarding movement. One valid counter-point to my argument may be found there:

FLYERS AND OTHER MODELS
Models thatphysically fit undera Flyermodelcanmove beneath
it.Likewise, a Flyercan end its moveover such models.However,
whenmovingthis way, enemy models must still remain 1" away
fromthe baseofthe Flyer, and the Flyercannot end its move
with its basewithin 1" of other enemy models.

One might argue that since DSing is a form of movement that the Mawloc would have to stay 1" away from the flyer but then the Mawloc's special rule allows it to DS under enemy units/models.

My opinion remains that the Mawloc does not have the ability to damage flyers based upon:
1. The Mawloc's rule states that the base/marker thing must cover models that will be damaged.
2. Flyer bases are ignored except for two very explicit situations, neither of which apply to the Mawloc's special attack and the Mawloc base/marker can not cover the "model" unless we suddenly allow DSing in mid-air.
3. There is nothing in the Mawloc rules or Tyranid FAQ that says the Mawloc's special attack effects multiple levels.

Any and all are more than welcome to disagree with me, theirs no reason for us to have to agree and I readily admit that it'd be hysterical for a worm popping up out of the ground to take out a supersonic jet. What's next? Mawlocs knocking spaceships down from orbit?

Cheers all, have a great day.

"Directly over the spot" has nothing to do with the "On the table" you insist.
If a model is on that spot- - - that model is DIRECTLY OVER THAT SPOT.

kirsanth wrote:"Directly over the spot" has nothing to do with the "On the table" you insist.
If a model is on that spot- - - that model is DIRECTLY OVER THAT SPOT.

That's fine. If I'm wrong, I'm wrong. As I mentioned before, I don't have the Tyranid codex. I just used the explanation in Army Builder which, as we all know, isn't always accurate. I don't have any flyers and don't normally run into people playing Mawlocs so I doubt it'll come up for me; if it does, my opponent and I will come to an understanding one way or the other an move on.

It is as silly as it sounds, and even people that know this will probably laugh when it happens.

It's silly and I would not be surprised it its changed via FAQ. The fact that each one so far has backed the silliness that it reads as though, makes that unlikely, as I read it.

editing to add:
Again, it's like the cover save thing. People think it preposterous that you can hide behind/in a tree from this attack - and yet the tree is still there without being affected. Guess what? That thing unaffected by this attack would be fantastic to use as shelter from this attack.

I say it does not work as right on page 6 under the Blast Markers and Templates, first sentence.
"Some weapons are so powerful"
Right there in the BRB it indicates that if it uses a Blast marker it's a weapon. No where does it limit it to shooting attacks.

agnosto wrote:

Kommissar Kel wrote:

I detailed this a few pages back: the Mawloc hits everything in the cylinder of it's marker, on all floors in ruins.

Sorry I missed it. Source? Because it would be the only effect in the game with infinite capabilities for damage (AFAIK), and there's nothing in the rule or rulebook to support it since template effects are mono-dimensional (at least they were in 5th). Please bear with me, I'm still going through the 6th edition book and so I don't know what all is covered.

Source?

Sure: Tyranid Codex Page 51, the rule is called "Terror from the Deep"

It says: "Every unit under the Marker suffers a number of Strength 6, AP 2 hits equal to the number of models that are wholly or partially covered by the Marker."

Can I get a Source for Template/Marker effects being mono-dimensional? %th edition source on the subject will be just as welcome as 6th, btw.


Sargow: Half a sentence from a rule description does not a rule make. You will note that just after describing the Template, and 2 Blast Markers; the rules for how you use the Template and Markers only ever refer to "attacks that have an area of effect or Blast Radius".

Terror from the Deep is an Attack, but it is not Shooting a Weapon.

Kommissar Kel wrote:

agnosto wrote:

Kommissar Kel wrote:

I detailed this a few pages back: the Mawloc hits everything in the cylinder of it's marker, on all floors in ruins.

Sorry I missed it. Source? Because it would be the only effect in the game with infinite capabilities for damage (AFAIK), and there's nothing in the rule or rulebook to support it since template effects are mono-dimensional (at least they were in 5th). Please bear with me, I'm still going through the 6th edition book and so I don't know what all is covered.

Source?

Sure: Tyranid Codex Page 51, the rule is called "Terror from the Deep"

It says: "Every unit under the Marker suffers a number of Strength 6, AP 2 hits equal to the number of models that are wholly or partially covered by the Marker."

Can I get a Source for Template/Marker effects being mono-dimensional? %th edition source on the subject will be just as welcome as 6th, btw.


Sargow: Half a sentence from a rule description does not a rule make. You will note that just after describing the Template, and 2 Blast Markers; the rules for how you use the Template and Markers only ever refer to "attacks that have an area of effect or Blast Radius".

Terror from the Deep is an Attack, but it is not Shooting a Weapon.

No the page 6 description of Blast and template markers make the rule and as i am not going to write the entire page as proof you will have to read it, and you will note that if you read the entirety of the page they don't ever refer to the markers as shooting attacks, just attacks. So if you can point to some other reference in the rule book that dictates other markers and templates that Terror From the Deep uses, it is considered a weapon in regards to using the template.

Let me just write that out for you then:

"Some weapons are so powerful that they don't just target a single model or unit, but have an "Area of Effect" which might encompass (and often utterly devastate!) several different units.
To better represent these circumstances, Warhammer 40,000 uses a series of three different Blast markers and templates:

<Description in bullet points of 3" circular Marker, 5" circular Marker, and roughly 8" teardrop template>

<explanation that there are Photo-copies for use in the back of the book, or that you could buy Plastic ones>

The Templates and Blast Markers are used as a way of determining how many models are hit by an attack that has an area of effect or blast radius. When an Attack uses a Template, it will explain how the template is positioned, including any kind of Scatter that might occur.

You see how that first bit contains exactly 0 rules, and How the last bit only refers to "attacks", not Weapons?

Yeah, you didn't want to type it out because you knew it disproved your claim. Unfortunately for you I am just the kind of crazy that is already re-typing all the rules in the book in a short outline form, both as a reference guide and as an exercise to help memorize all the new rules.

kjolnir wrote:

winterman wrote:There are ways to get around it and so far I have yet to read anything that denys Terror from the Deep.

Except that TFtD is has a profile exactly like a weapon, is resolved like a weapon, and uses a template like a weapon. And template weapons can't hit zooming/swooping flyers.

Tftd isn't a weapon or attack of any kind, you simply use it to determine who is hit by the mawloc appearing on the board. Just because it deals damage and has Strength and AP stats, It does not mean it is a weapon. For example, Hammer of Wrath. If you can find a weapon profile that says otherwise, I'd really love to see it. I'd start looking by actually checking out the Terror from the deep rules on page 51. should be right around "Place the large blast template directly over the spot the mawloc is emerging from. Every unit under the template suffers a number of Strength 6 AP 2 hits equal to the number of models in that unit that are wholly or partially covered by the template. Vehicles are always struck on their rear armour." There you have it, word for word, typo for typo. Not a weapon.

I'm seeing so many Flyer debates that center around people injecting their own interpretations of the situation instead of just reading the fething rules. I can't comprehend how this is even a debate.

Pg 81: "Template, Blast, and Large Blast weapons can't hit a zooming flyer." (emphasis mine) In other words, weapons that have the Template, Blast, or Large Blast USR.

Terror from the deep is not a weapon, nor does it have those special rules. You use the Large Blast template to determine who gets hit by the attack, but that doesn't mean it's a weapon or an actual Large Blast attack, unless errata'd.

If it said something like "attacks that use templates or the blast markers can't hit a zooming flyer" the argument that it wouldn't work would be valid.

The Mawloc can hit flyers unless someone points out rules that states that the Mawloc attack is actually a weapon with the Large Blast USR. Otherwise the only argument against it is just as unsubstantiated as people who say chariot sweeps can't hit flyers because they can't be assaulted.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Kommissar Kel wrote:Let me just write that out for you then:

"Some weapons are so powerful that they don't just target a single model or unit, but have an "Area of Effect" which might encompass (and often utterly devastate!) several different units.
To better represent these circumstances, Warhammer 40,000 uses a series of three different Blast markers and templates:

<Description in bullet points of 3" circular Marker, 5" circular Marker, and roughly 8" teardrop template>

<explanation that there are Photo-copies for use in the back of the book, or that you could buy Plastic ones>

The Templates and Blast Markers are used as a way of determining how many models are hit by an attack that has an area of effect or blast radius. When an Attack uses a Template, it will explain how the template is positioned, including any kind of Scatter that might occur.

You see how that first bit contains exactly 0 rules, and How the last bit only refers to "attacks", not Weapons?

Yeah, you didn't want to type it out because you knew it disproved your claim. Unfortunately for you I am just the kind of crazy that is already re-typing all the rules in the book in a short outline form, both as a reference guide and as an exercise to help memorize all the new rules.

...aaaaaand /thread

Just for perspective though what is the Mawloc's "terror from the deep" attack then? The debate seems to be focused on whether it is a shooting attack, whether it is an assault attack, or if it's neither. But if it's neither then it seems odd as it must still be governed by some section of rules.

We know the "attack" (we'll put it in quotation marks for now) occurs in the movement sub-phase because it occurs during deepstrike. This "attack" occurs out of phase of either shooting or assault and thus might be analogous to say a transport exploding and the unit inside taking automatic Str.4 hits. Such an "attack" doesn't occur due to normal circumstance but instead happens by operation of the rulebook.

Here, the "attack" happens by operation of the codex, circumscribed by the deepstrike rules. The inevitable question then is whether those deepstrike rules are then also circumscribed by the flyer rules.

My gut instinct is to say yes mainly due to the wording that the base is ignored (as opposed to say flyers being immune to blasts). The only way to determine the mawloc's "attack" is to determine if it comes into contact with the base of the model which, for flyers, is ignored.

Therefore it is not an "attack" but an operation of the rules. The rules only apply to a model whose base can be counted which it cannot for zooming flyers. Thus, the Mawloc's attack cannot hit flyers.

buddha wrote:My gut instinct is to say yes mainly due to the wording that the base is ignored (as opposed to say flyers being immune to blasts). The only way to determine the mawloc's "attack" is to determine if it comes into contact with the base of the model which, for flyers, is ignored.

Not true. The hull counts just fine.

buddha wrote:
My gut instinct is to say yes mainly due to the wording that the base is ignored (as opposed to say flyers being immune to blasts). The only way to determine the mawloc's "attack" is to determine if it comes into contact with the base of the model which, for flyers, is ignored.

Therefore it is not an "attack" but an operation of the rules. The rules only apply to a model whose base can be counted which it cannot for zooming flyers. Thus, the Mawloc's attack cannot hit flyers.

by that logic, any vehicle that didn't come with a base (LRBT or even a rhino), could never be hit by a mawloc, since they don't have bases

SCvodimier wrote:
by that logic, any vehicle that didn't come with a base (LRBT or even a rhino), could never be hit by a mawloc, since they don't have bases

Well I suppose if you stretch the argument out to absurdity then possibly. But the difference is flyers do have bases, which the BGB says to ignore while zooming.

buddha wrote:

SCvodimier wrote:
by that logic, any vehicle that didn't come with a base (LRBT or even a rhino), could never be hit by a mawloc, since they don't have bases

Well I suppose if you stretch the argument out to absurdity then possibly. But the difference is flyers do have bases, which the BGB says to ignore while zooming.

Right. So hit the hull. I'm not seeing how ignoring the base means they can't be hit.

buddha wrote:

SCvodimier wrote:
by that logic, any vehicle that didn't come with a base (LRBT or even a rhino), could never be hit by a mawloc, since they don't have bases

Well I suppose if you stretch the argument out to absurdity then possibly. But the difference is flyers do have bases, which the BGB says to ignore while zooming.

Excepting that the Base cannot end over, nor within 1" of an enemy model(and not Over any models)

While a Flyer does effectively "disappear" from the table for during it's move, the Base shows right back up on the table, counting as the position of the flyer on the ground when it is not in the process of moving.

Loch wrote:Dropping a Void Mine specifically does not count against the number of weapons the Voidraven Bomber may fire that turn, per the DE FAQ. It's a Blast Marker that gets dropped in the Movement Phase, not the Shooting Phase. It's just like Terror From the Deep in that it uses a weapon profile to resolve an attack, but that attack happens in the Movement Phase, not the Shooting Phase.

Is the void mine a blast or large blast weapon?

If the answer is yes, then you can't ever shoot them at zooming flyers. Not even with Skyfire, as template, blast, and large blast weapons are specifically excluded from ever being able to hit zooming/swooping flyers.

Has anyone mentioned that the FAQ replaces the word Template with marker in the terror from the deep entry?

Toeko wrote:Has anyone mentioned that the FAQ replaces the word Template with marker in the terror from the deep entry?

That part of the FAQ isn't new - it was like that in 5th.
And it's completely, 100%, irrelevant to this discussion. If you think otherwise, please post why.

Ive been lurking (oh look a tyranid pun) for a while, but finally joined so I could throw in my .02 on some of the points on this thread.

I am on the side of TftD working against flyers for all the RAW/rule lawyering reasons mentioned. My question to those that oppose it is that if the Mawloc fluff had been written so that it crashes down from space instead of popping up from the ground would you still refute the claim that it hits? This would be the exact same game mechanic, but would completely alleviate the argument that the mawloc "cant reach".

Also, I could have sworn that I had read somewhere that the marker represents a cylinder and not simply a 2D circle. I feel like it was in an old FAQ or perhaps an older book, but I cant find it for the life of me. Can you still get a hold of the older FAQs?

rigeld2 wrote:

Toeko wrote:Has anyone mentioned that the FAQ replaces the word Template with marker in the terror from the deep entry?

That part of the FAQ isn't new - it was like that in 5th.
And it's completely, 100%, irrelevant to this discussion. If you think otherwise, please post why.

If it's a marker, people can't use the "Templates can never hit flyers"argument.

am on the side of TftD working against flyers for all the RAW/rule lawyering reasons mentioned. My question to those that oppose it is that if the Mawloc fluff had been written so that it crashes down from space instead of popping up from the ground would you still refute the claim that it hits? This would be the exact same game mechanic, but would completely alleviate the argument that the mawloc "cant reach".

Also, I could have sworn that I had read somewhere that the marker represents a cylinder and not simply a 2D circle. I feel like it was in an old FAQ or perhaps an older book, but I cant find it for the life of me. Can you still get a hold of the older FAQs?

^This guy^

Hunchkrot wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

Toeko wrote:Has anyone mentioned that the FAQ replaces the word Template with marker in the terror from the deep entry?

That part of the FAQ isn't new - it was like that in 5th.
And it's completely, 100%, irrelevant to this discussion. If you think otherwise, please post why.

If it's a marker, people can't use the "Templates can never hit flyers"argument.

Except the same rule that mentions templates also mentions large and small blast markers.

I'm hoping someone makes a comic out of this situation.

xole wrote:I'm hoping someone makes a comic out of this situation.

Or a video where the mawloc pops out the ground and for the next 30 seconds flys through the air to pluck a fast moving aircraft out of the sky.

All this thread comes down to, is an argument about a lack of definition loophole that i really hope gets sorted with an updated FAQ. Imo the intention is that it can't, but because it's a new rulebook there hasn't been enough time yet to sort out the controversies and oddities. Even as a tyranid player i don't think it should be able to, but if it is FAQed that it can, fair game, i thought wrong, let the Mawlocs have their fun.

I'm on the "it doesn't work" side of this debate.

The definition of weapon from some online dictionary:

1. An instrument of attack or defense in combat, as a gun, missile, or sword.
2. Zoology A part or organ, such as a claw or stinger, used by an animal in attack or defense.
3. A means used to defend against or defeat another: Logic was her weapon.

By the above definition, is Terror from the Deep a weapon? In my opinion, it's an unambiguous YES. In fact, I'd add a fourth definition:

4. An ability or piece of wargear in Warhammer 40k used to damage or remove another player's units.

Terror from the Deep is clearly a weapon. The controlling player obviously uses it as such, by purposely trying to deep strike right on top of enemy units. It doesn't matter that nothing is fired or shot, or that BS isn't used to determine accuracy. The intent of the controlling player makes it a weapon. I really don't get how anyone could argue that it's NOT a weapon, unless we're using some Games Workshop definition of weapon. The sad thing is, I still expect some of you to argue that it's not a weapon. I'd love to see your arguments for this.

The 6th Ed rule book states: "Template, Blast and Large Blast WEAPONS cannot hit Swooping / Flying models". That pretty clear to me.

Conclusion: Terror from the Deep is a weapon, it is a weapon that uses a Large Blast marker. These types of weapons cannot hit Swooping / Flying models. Ergo, doesn't work. QED

So you're saying psychic powers are also weapons, meaning all of them should roll to hit, since that is what is described in the shooting phase?
The problem with bringing outside definitions into the 40k rules set is that the rules themselves lay out what each keyword is and how it applies to the game.
By the same definition defense, I could say my harpy uses the flyer rules in since, according to dictionary.com, a flyer is "a person or thing that flies or moves very fast"

Well the Harpy is a flying monstrous creature...

Happyjew wrote:Well the Harpy is a flying monstrous creature...

Which has different rules from a flyer, but what if I want to play with my harpy as a specific flyer, rather than a flying monstrous creature rules?

The problem with his argument is that defintion-based evidence doesn't work if it is outside of the game system, because the game system might define things that are counter-intuitive to how the dictionary defines them or definitions that are normally known.

sfshilo wrote:Starting on page 50 the weapons in the game are defined. You will not find the mawlac area effect there as it is not a weapon or shooting attack.

Awesome, it's also missing the big shoota. That means no one can dodge big shootas anymore?

SCvodimier wrote:

Happyjew wrote:Well the Harpy is a flying monstrous creature...

Which has different rules from a flyer, but what if I want to play with my harpy as a specific flyer, rather than a flying monstrous creature rules?

The problem with his argument is that defintion-based evidence doesn't work if it is outside of the game system, because the game system might define things that are counter-intuitive to how the dictionary defines them or definitions that are normally known.

Your Harpy example is a bit silly, as the FAQ clearly states that the Harpy's unit type is Flying Monstrous Creature, which has rules in the main rulebook. To insist on playing it as anything other than a Flying MC would be cheating.

The game system doesn't define an alternate meaning for Weapon, so I don't see anything wrong with using the common definition of the word as it is used by millions of people every day. The reason they don't define it explicitly is that it's a common word FFS, it doesn't need to be defined in the game, it's a common word.

Also means big shootas can't be fired in the shooting phase because they don't have any special rules saying they can?

undertow wrote:

SCvodimier wrote:

Happyjew wrote:Well the Harpy is a flying monstrous creature...

Which has different rules from a flyer, but what if I want to play with my harpy as a specific flyer, rather than a flying monstrous creature rules?

The problem with his argument is that defintion-based evidence doesn't work if it is outside of the game system, because the game system might define things that are counter-intuitive to how the dictionary defines them or definitions that are normally known.

Your Harpy example is a bit silly, as the FAQ clearly states that the Harpy's unit type is Flying Monstrous Creature, which has rules in the main rulebook. To insist on playing it as anything other than a Flying MC would be cheating.

The game system doesn't define an alternate meaning for Weapon, so I don't see anything wrong with using the common definition of the word as it is used by millions of people every day. The reason they don't define it explicitly is that it's a common word FFS, it doesn't need to be defined in the game, it's a common word.

Except, there's a section of the book called "weapons" and though, as people have pointed out, that list is not exhaustive of all the weapons in the game, it doesn't include any special abilities (tftd) or psychic powers. The idea that "websters says the mawloc is a weapon therefore you don't hit" strains credulity. I'd start showing up to tournaments with a copy of black's law and a big black robe.

People need to stop trying to use logic with 40k. Anyways, demonstration time.

How do you know the mawloc can't reach the flyer? A mawloc is strong enough to propel itself an infinite/undetermined distance underground over the course of a turn, why would it not be able to use this momentum to leap into the air? Flyers can't fly that high off the ground, they're within rifle range, after all. For that matter, aren't flyers only moving about 3 to 6 times as fast as infantry?

SCvodimier wrote:Also means big shootas can't be fired in the shooting phase because they don't have any special rules saying they can?

True, true. They are listed just fine in the ork codex though.

Besides that, I agree with the Mawloc being able to hit planes though. There is no rule limiting the power of non-shooting special abilities when targeting a flyer.

Jidmah wrote:

SCvodimier wrote:Also means big shootas can't be fired in the shooting phase because they don't have any special rules saying they can?

True, true. They are listed just fine in the ork codex though.

Besides that, I agree with the Mawloc being able to hit planes though. There is no rule limiting the power of non-shooting special abilities when targeting a flyer.

Except that there is a rule limiting weapons that use Blast markers from hitting swooping / zooming models.

It's like you people are sticking your fingers in your ears and yelling 'I CAN'T HEAR YOU'.

Seriously, why isn't Terror from the Deep a weapon? Can someone explain that?

undertow wrote:

Jidmah wrote:

SCvodimier wrote:Also means big shootas can't be fired in the shooting phase because they don't have any special rules saying they can?

True, true. They are listed just fine in the ork codex though.

Besides that, I agree with the Mawloc being able to hit planes though. There is no rule limiting the power of non-shooting special abilities when targeting a flyer.

Except that there is a rule limiting weapons that use Blast markers from hitting swooping / zooming models.

It's like you people are sticking your fingers in your ears and yelling 'I CAN'T HEAR YOU'

Right back at you. The mawloc special ability/rule is not a weapon.

To edit to your edit, a weapon is something along the lines of a bolter, or a chainsword. Abilities that are resolved as shooting attacks are not weapons, but they are invalidated or validated through the snap shot rule.

The mawloc tftd rule is not listed as a shooting attack. Nor is it a weapon. Similar to the Doom of Malantai's bubble of death(I think...rulebook in my car), it is just something that happens. That it uses the large blast marker is irrelevant.

A special rule for arriving from reserves using a blast marker is not the same as a blast weapon.

"Terror from the deep" does not have the blast or large blast special rule, and thus is not a blast weapon.

If it didn't use the large blast marker, but instead said to measure a 2.5" circle - would there still be an argument?

rigeld2 wrote:If it didn't use the large blast marker, but instead said to measure a 2.5" circle - would there still be an argument?

no there wouldn't be. and, that's funny.

undertow wrote:


Seriously, why isn't Terror from the Deep a weapon? Can someone explain that?

sure, I'll even do it in the quick and dirty version.

A) the first sentence of weapons states that ever weapon has a certain profile, therefore, an attack needs to have the relevant profile to be considered a weapon.

B) the mawloc does not have such a profile, is not listed under weapons in the tyranid codex, and the special rule does not state anything about it being a shooting attack, therefore it does not count as a weapon.

to fend off a few counterexamples:

1) psychic powers state that they are often referred to as psychic shooting attacks, something different from the weapon category, and therefore, even blast or template psychic powers can hit zooming flyers, though since they count as firing an assault weapon, they must roll for snapshot (unless they auto-hit).

2)as per the big shoota example above, the BGB doesn't have it listed, but it provides a grounds already for any included weapons (i.e., they have the weapons profile).

shoot away (pun highly intended).

rigeld2 wrote:If it didn't use the large blast marker, but instead said to measure a 2.5" circle - would there still be an argument?

Yes, there would still be a problem. The zooming flyer rules attempt to describe how fast and "incredibly hard to hit" a Zooming Flyer is. The "Hard to Hit" rule seems to indicate that Flyers can only be shot by Snap Shot (or Skyfire). It seems to go silent on any other effects in the game.

The problem is that GW used the generic phrase 'Shots resolved...' and the whole section only talks about 'weapons' as generic clauses. One can argue that they go silent on all other 'special' effects by either design because they cannot hurt / effect the flyers, or by design because all of these other items do effect Flyers.

We are also learning this list of 'other' effects may be quite an exhaustive list... for these so called, "incredibly hard to hit" flyers.

Folks are questioning many such items, which include but are not limited to:

Area of Effect types
- Mawlocs coming out of the ground under Flyers

Distance effects
- released Bomb Squiggs
- close proximity Grabbin claw

Drawing line / beam type weapons
- Necron Death Ray

Drawing line / beam type spells
- Blood lance
- Jaws of the World Wolf
etc...

From my perspective, this rule has a whole lot less to do with the Mawloc's mode of attack / special rules for damaging things in a radius... and more to do with what Flyers are meant to be effected by, or not, in the new BRB. Mawlocs really are just one of the many questions...

With any luck, GW will FAQ this sooner rather than later... until then, the Tourny coordinators can make the call... and folks that cannot agree can always roll a d6 - at least that is a fall back rule. However, until a FAQ, games with new players should plan to discuss stuff like this. You never know who's going to land on which side of this one...

Cheers,

Tactica wrote:

Drawing line / beam type weapons
- Necron Death Ray

and eldar vibrocannon

Tactica wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:If it didn't use the large blast marker, but instead said to measure a 2.5" circle - would there still be an argument?

Yes, there would still be a problem. The zooming flyer rules attempt to describe how fast and "incredibly hard to hit" a Zooming Flyer is. The "Hard to Hit" rule seems to indicate that Flyers can only be shot by Snap Shot (or Skyfire). It seems to go silent on any other effects in the game.

So... in a permissive rules set, ability A is allowed to damage vehicles, Vehicle B has the ability to be hard to shoot. Ability A doesn't shoot, but you're insisting that they really meant for any possible way of causing damage to full under Vehicle B's ability?

Do you have any evidence of this? Fluff exaggerates in literally every case I've ever seen wrt 40k - so please don't use that as an example.

You do realize that "Hard to Hit" still makes them rather difficult for most things to kill, right?

rigeld2 wrote:So... in a permissive rules set, ability A is allowed to damage vehicles, Vehicle B has the ability to be hard to shoot. Ability A doesn't shoot, but you're insisting that they really meant for any possible way of causing damage to full under Vehicle B's ability?

The rule is "Hard to Hit." The rule does not read, "Hard to Shoot."

Said rule reads, "Shots resolved... may only be Snap Shots"

A) some folks interpret that the rule is only for when a unit is shooting with a weapon... other items are not mentioned (such as the Mawloc effects)
B) other folks are saying, no, the rules says the Flyer is Hard to hit, it may ONLY be hit with Snap Shots or Skyfire - that's it.

Thus my answer to the previous poster. That is, the problem would still exist because the problem is larger than "what does a Mawloc do". The larger problem is, what can a Flyer be hit / affected by. (The Mawloc just happens to be one of such special effects in question.)

Cheers,

Making this work with a Mawloc is hard.

Also, fliers are entirely affected by the results of deepstrike.

Tactica wrote:B) other folks are saying, no, the rules says the Flyer is Hard to hit, it may ONLY be hit with Snap Shots or Skyfire - that's it.

And things that auto-hit. And things that are exceptions to those rules. And..

"Hard to Hit" is not the rule. Yes, that's the name - but not the effects. The rule is pretty well defined (that is - it has hard limits on what it restricts).
People who take the name of a rule and assume intent based on that are going to have a bad time.

Thus my answer to the previous poster. That is, the problem would still exist because the problem is larger than "what does a Mawloc do". The larger problem is, what can a Flyer be hit / affected by. (The Mawloc just happens to be one of such special effects in question.)

Yeah, so all the people citing blast markers and weapon definitions would still oppose it? Erm...

jcress410 wrote:

Tactica wrote:

Drawing line / beam type weapons
- Necron Death Ray

and eldar vibrocannon

As stated in other threads, the vibro cannon is shooting its line, and artillery may never snap-fire. Thus, you can never resolve a vibro-cannon hit against a flier in zoom mode. The death-ray can only hit fliers because it is mounted on a flier itself and thus can gain the skyfire rule - in which case it would be unable to hit ground targets, as it can't be snap-fired either (no to-hit rolls).

Jidmah wrote:

jcress410 wrote:

Tactica wrote:

Drawing line / beam type weapons
- Necron Death Ray

and eldar vibrocannon

As stated in other threads, the vibro cannon is shooting its line, and artillery may never snap-fire. Thus, you can never resolve a vibro-cannon hit against a flier in zoom mode. The death-ray can only hit fliers because it is mounted on a flier itself and thus can gain the skyfire rule - in which case it would be unable to hit ground targets, as it can't be snap-fired either (no to-hit rolls).

That's gakky logic in the case of the Death Ray. That's not how it works.

You only know if you're snap-firing or not after picking a target. The Death Ray never picks a target. By the time I've picked my two arbitrary points in space, the weapon has already fired. Same goes for beam and other line powers like blood lance. They indisputably hit flyers unless they explicity require a target ahead of time that would require me to know if I'm shooting a snap shot or not.

If Death Ray required a target, then you'd be right. I'd have to pick skyfire mode to hit a flyer with it. But I don't have to do that, because no target is ever declared. The specific, advanced codex rules contradict the default shooting sequence, and by Page 7 the codex rules take precedence. End of story.

EDIT: Also, I find it fething hilarious how much of this thread has devolved into people arguing about the physics of whether or not a burrowing insectoid can hit a fast flyer. You're all missing the fething point! Follow the rules! You can't apply real-world logic to a game with a discrete set of rules. This is like arguing a queen could never move on the chessboard because royalty usually wear bodices that impede movement. Stop acting like chuckleheads and read the goddamn rules.

Ostrakon wrote:You only know if you're snap-firing or not after picking a target. The Death Ray never picks a target. By the time I've picked my two arbitrary points in space, the weapon has already fired. Same goes for beam and other line powers like blood lance. They indisputably hit flyers unless they explicity require a target ahead of time that would require me to know if I'm shooting a snap shot or not..

Hence why I believe the Vibrocannon can hit flyers. By the time you find out the line will hit a flyer, you've already rolled to hit. Also the Vibrocannon does not target anything (it's rather indiscriminate).

Happyjew wrote:

Ostrakon wrote:You only know if you're snap-firing or not after picking a target. The Death Ray never picks a target. By the time I've picked my two arbitrary points in space, the weapon has already fired. Same goes for beam and other line powers like blood lance. They indisputably hit flyers unless they explicity require a target ahead of time that would require me to know if I'm shooting a snap shot or not..

Hence why I believe the Vibrocannon can hit flyers. By the time you find out the line will hit a flyer, you've already rolled to hit. Also the Vibrocannon does not target anything (it's rather indiscriminate).

I didn't speak for the Vibrocannon because I'm not familiar with it. Do you need to select a target unit for it? If so you can't hit a flyer with it, unless you've target a ground unit and the line happens to go through a flyer. If you don't need to select a target it doesn't matter.

Ostrakon wrote:That's gakky logic in the case of the Death Ray. That's not how it works.

You only know if you're snap-firing or not after picking a target. The Death Ray never picks a target. By the time I've picked my two arbitrary points in space, the weapon has already fired. Same goes for beam and other line powers like blood lance. They indisputably hit flyers unless they explicity require a target ahead of time that would require me to know if I'm shooting a snap shot or not.

Simple question, did you snap fire the death ray? No you didn't. Because, as you correctly pointed out, you never had the chance to do so.
So you can not resolve shooting the death ray against any fliers, because a requirement for resolving it against fliers was not met.

If Death Ray required a target, then you'd be right. I'd have to pick skyfire mode to hit a flyer with it. But I don't have to do that, because no target is ever declared. The specific, advanced codex rules contradict the default shooting sequence, and by Page 7 the codex rules take precedence. End of story.

Completely irrelevant. You are required to snap fire with non-sky-fire weapons in order to hit a flier through shooting. If you don't pick a target, you don't get a chance to snap fire and thus can not resolve the death ray against fliers. You are explicitly prohibited from doing so.

Ostrakon wrote:You only know if you're snap-firing or not after picking a target. The Death Ray never picks a target. By the time I've picked my two arbitrary points in space, the weapon has already fired. Same goes for beam and other line powers like blood lance. They indisputably hit flyers unless they explicity require a target ahead of time that would require me to know if I'm shooting a snap shot or not..

If you're not shooting at BS1, you are not snap firing. If you are shooting and not snap firing, you are disallowed from resolving that shot against any fliers. If you are using the snap fire rules (which explicitly are disallowed for any weapons not using a BS), you are snap firing. If you are not, you are not. There can never be any uncertainty.

Happyjew wrote:Hence why I believe the Vibrocannon can hit flyers. By the time you find out the line will hit a flyer, you've already rolled to hit. Also the Vibrocannon does not target anything (it's rather indiscriminate).

You are still firing a shot. That shot may not be resolved against fliers at all. Resolving includes losing hull points. It's completely irrelevant whether your have made your to-hit roll or not.

Ostrakon wrote:I didn't speak for the Vibrocannon because I'm not familiar with it. Do you need to select a target unit for it? If so you can't hit a flyer with it, unless you've target a ground unit and the line happens to go through a flyer. If you don't need to select a target it doesn't matter.

Nothing actually prevents your from picking fliers as targets. You are free to shoot blasts and template weapons at a fliers(in an attmept to scatter off them or whatever), you are just never going to resolve the shots against them.

"Shots resolved at a Zooming Flyer can only be resolved as Snap Shots."

So I don't read this as 'Only snap shots can be resolved against flyers.' Some weapons do not resolve shots in the same way as normal shooting attacks. 'Snap shots' is an example; sometimes "... a model is forced to make Snap Shots rather than shoot normally."

So in the Death Ray example, we are told we can NOT use the Death Ray as a snap shot--no BS is used. We must follow the rules for the death ray's particular resolution of attack. So we draw a line, and we hit any model under the line (including flyers). In this case, I would say that we are not resolving the Death Ray's shot AT a flyer, as we dont resolve Death Ray's in that way--namely AT anything. We resolve the deathray by drawing a line between two points.

In the OP, the Mawloc is not shooting, and it is not using a large blast weapon. The specific exceptions to what hits a vehicle thus do not apply. If the rule instead read that Large Blasts (the USR) do not hit flyers, or if it could be shown that when they said "large blast weapon" they really ment large blasts of any sort, then I would agree that Mawlocs dont hit flyers.

To those that object that Mawlocs cant hit a flyer thanks to physics, apparently the Flyers are flying low enough that a regular human can throw a krak grenade up and hit the flyer in the shooting phase. So the Mawloc need only reach up 8 inches, which considering how tall the model is, is not much of a stretch.

DevianID wrote:"Shots resolved at a Zooming Flyer can only be resolved as Snap Shots."

So I don't read this as 'Only snap shots can be resolved against flyers.' Some weapons do not resolve shots in the same way as normal shooting attacks. 'Snap shots' is an example; sometimes "... a model is forced to make Snap Shots rather than shoot normally."

It doesn't say that, but has the same effect. Unless you are able to make a BS1 to-hit roll according to snap-fire rules for your shot, you can not resolve the shot as Snap Shot. This makes it impossible to resolve the shot against a flier at all.

So in the Death Ray example, we are told we can NOT use the Death Ray as a snap shot--no BS is used. We must follow the rules for the death ray's particular resolution of attack. So we draw a line, and we hit any model under the line (including flyers). In this case, I would say that we are not resolving the Death Ray's shot AT a flyer, as we dont resolve Death Ray's in that way--namely AT anything. We resolve the deathray by drawing a line between two points.

Resolving a shot against a vehicle consists of hitting, penetrating, taking saves, taking hull points off, rolling on the damage table and wrecking the vehicle if it has no hull points left. Until all that is done, the shot has not been resolved(the chain can stop early for obvious reasons). Snap-fire changes the hitting part. If you do not do that exactly as described in the snap-fire rules, you did not resolve your shot as snap-fire.

In the OP, the Mawloc is not shooting, and it is not using a large blast weapon. The specific exceptions to what hits a vehicle thus do not apply. If the rule instead read that Large Blasts (the USR) do not hit flyers, or if it could be shown that when they said "large blast weapon" they really ment large blasts of any sort, then I would agree that Mawlocs dont hit flyers.

Fully agree.

kirsanth wrote:

agnosto wrote:I believe that even though the Flier's base is at ground level, the actual model is located several floors up.

Then why do the ranges measured for their weapons not reflect this?
No, WYSIWYG with TLOS.

IT does. You measure from flyer to target model, not the air space above the target model. Height represntation is already built in to TLS measuring.

Yeah, the Flyers base is used only for the purposes of disembarking, embarking, and assaulting(and only if the flyer is in hover mode)

Otherwise, its like a normal vehicle and its hull is used.

Sargow wrote:I say it does not work as right on page 6 under the Blast Markers and Templates, first sentence.
"Some weapons are so powerful"
Right there in the BRB it indicates that if it uses a Blast marker it's a weapon. No where does it limit it to shooting attacks.

The brb has text for fluff purposes, that we will call dicta for now, and operable text that the FAQs refer to as "penultimate" sentences. The penultimate sentence gives the players the actual rules by which to play by. The language you quoted is not a penultimate sentence and therefore has no value in terms of game play.

Jidmah wrote:

DevianID wrote:"Shots resolved at a Zooming Flyer can only be resolved as Snap Shots."

So I don't read this as 'Only snap shots can be resolved against flyers.' Some weapons do not resolve shots in the same way as normal shooting attacks. 'Snap shots' is an example; sometimes "... a model is forced to make Snap Shots rather than shoot normally."

It doesn't say that, but has the same effect. Unless you are able to make a BS1 to-hit roll according to snap-fire rules for your shot, you can not resolve the shot as Snap Shot. This makes it impossible to resolve the shot against a flier at all.

So in the Death Ray example, we are told we can NOT use the Death Ray as a snap shot--no BS is used. We must follow the rules for the death ray's particular resolution of attack. So we draw a line, and we hit any model under the line (including flyers). In this case, I would say that we are not resolving the Death Ray's shot AT a flyer, as we dont resolve Death Ray's in that way--namely AT anything. We resolve the deathray by drawing a line between two points.

Resolving a shot against a vehicle consists of hitting, penetrating, taking saves, taking hull points off, rolling on the damage table and wrecking the vehicle if it has no hull points left. Until all that is done, the shot has not been resolved(the chain can stop early for obvious reasons). Snap-fire changes the hitting part. If you do not do that exactly as described in the snap-fire rules, you did not resolve your shot as snap-fire.

In the OP, the Mawloc is not shooting, and it is not using a large blast weapon. The specific exceptions to what hits a vehicle thus do not apply. If the rule instead read that Large Blasts (the USR) do not hit flyers, or if it could be shown that when they said "large blast weapon" they really ment large blasts of any sort, then I would agree that Mawlocs dont hit flyers.

Fully agree.

You're adding in a lot of your own logic here instead of what the rules actually say.

Shots resolved AT a zooming flyer... very important operative word there. The Death Ray and most line/beam powers in general never choose a flyer to shoot at. They circumvent the rules for normal shooting by skipping steps 1 and 2 of the shooting process, selecting a target and rolling to-hit. The codex rules for these weapons take precedence according to page 7, and they don't state that they don't hit flyers. You're trying to wedge in basic rules into a situation that will never happen according to the game rules. The only time the Death Ray will ever check to see if it's rolling snap shots is if it Evaded in the previous turn or was Stunned or Shaken.

Nowhere in the rules does it define "resolving shots" as what you posted either way. Snap shots can't be FIRED if they don't require BS, but by the time I know a flyer is under the line, the weapon has already fired and I've determined what is hit by it. It all comes down to the page 7 Basic vs Advanced sidebar. Codex rules can supercede BRB rules in the case of a conflict. It's pretty clear cut actually.

buddha wrote:Just for perspective though what is the Mawloc's "terror from the deep" attack then? The debate seems to be focused on whether it is a shooting attack, whether it is an assault attack, or if it's neither. But if it's neither then it seems odd as it must still be governed by some section of rules.

We know the "attack" (we'll put it in quotation marks for now) occurs in the movement sub-phase because it occurs during deepstrike. This "attack" occurs out of phase of either shooting or assault and thus might be analogous to say a transport exploding and the unit inside taking automatic Str.4 hits. Such an "attack" doesn't occur due to normal circumstance but instead happens by operation of the rulebook.

Here, the "attack" happens by operation of the codex, circumscribed by the deepstrike rules. The inevitable question then is whether those deepstrike rules are then also circumscribed by the flyer rules.

My gut instinct is to say yes mainly due to the wording that the base is ignored (as opposed to say flyers being immune to blasts). The only way to determine the mawloc's "attack" is to determine if it comes into contact with the base of the model which, for flyers, is ignored.

Therefore it is not an "attack" but an operation of the rules. The rules only apply to a model whose base can be counted which it cannot for zooming flyers. Thus, the Mawloc's attack cannot hit flyers.

It's not an attack, it's a special rule that is the result of tr mawloc's deepstrike.

the way i see it mawloc TFTD is a Special attack but not a shooting weapon.

if you read p13 for shooting , roll to hit and snap fire , they both start with a "model that fires one shot" .

Mawloc ability is clearly not a firing weapon but an alternative speical attack covered by it special rules.

That said
The flyers ability "hard to hit" seems to aimed at covering rules that fire at flyers i.e "shots resolved at a zooming flyer."
as the Mawloc TFTD attack is not a fired shot but is an special attack defined under its own rules,it should work against the flyer as there is nothing under flyers that say special abilities don’t work against as.

if we do allow it to not work v a flyer does that mean it cant work vs a normal ground vehicle as there nothing in that section that says the special abilities cannot work vs ground vehicle

alternatily what if this is a tau failsafe detonator. that works very simaly to Mawloc TFTD attack it a piece of wargear that produces a none-weapon explosion. how would that work v the flyer?

also if you see p32 secound paragraph "whenever a creature or weapon has an ability that breaks or bends one of the main games rules, it is represented by a special rule"

also page 32 "what special rules do i have"
paragraph 4 refers to speical rules not covered withing main rulebook being defined within codex's as unique abilites

clearly mawloc rule is a creature unique speical rule

Ostrakon wrote:Nowhere in the rules does it define "resolving shots" as what you posted either way. Snap shots can't be FIRED if they don't require BS, but by the time I know a flyer is under the line, the weapon has already fired and I've determined

So, there's a flier under your line. Did you snap fire your shot? No? Then no resolution against the flier.

what is hit by it. It all comes down to the page 7 Basic vs Advanced sidebar. Codex rules can supercede BRB rules in the case of a conflict. It's pretty clear cut actually.

You can hit the flier with your line, but you can not resolve the shot against it. The necron codex does not give you permission to resolve your shot against a target that you are not allowed to resolve against. In essence, the death-ray is nothing but a special form of auto-hitting. Weapons which auto-hit can not shoot at fliers either.

There is no need for a definition of "resolution". It's quite obvious what it mean. Resolving a shot mean just that. Resolve it, until there is nothing left to do with that shot.

I figure if TFTD is allowed to resolve against flyers, it is not the Mawloc hitting the flyer, but the rubble tossed skyward from it,s explosive surfacing that hits the flyer. Basically the eruption would create flakk burst above the exit hole, meaning the flyer jinks to a void it (gets displaced) and gets peppered by the debris ( take Armor Pen. tests).

It can't

1. (pg 81) "Template, Blast, and Large blast weapons cannot hit fliers in zoom mode." The Mawloc attack uses a template.

2. (pg 81) "Zooming fliers cannot be assaulted".

3. (pg. 80) "Models that physically fit under a flier model can move beneath it. Likewise, a flier can end it's move over such models. However, when moving this way, enemy models must still remain 1" away from the base of the flier, and the flier cannot end it's move with 1" of an enemy model."

Pretty cut and dried.

Mightytim wrote:It can't

1. (pg 81) "Template, Blast, and Large blast weapons cannot hit fliers in zoom mode." The Mawloc attack uses a template.

It's neither an attack, nor a weapon, nor does it have the template, blast or large blast special rule.

2. (pg 81) "Zooming fliers cannot be assaulted".

The tervigon does not assault the flier. It is arriving from reserves.

3. (pg. 80) "Models that physically fit under a flier model can move beneath it. Likewise, a flier can end it's move over such models. However, when moving this way, enemy models must still remain 1" away from the base of the flier, and the flier cannot end it's move with 1" of an enemy model."

Terror from the deep moves enemy models out of the way before placing the mawloc, thus obeying this rule perfectly.

Pretty cut and dried.

Mightytim wrote:It can't

1. (pg 81) "Template, Blast, and Large blast weapons cannot hit fliers in zoom mode." The Mawloc attack uses a template.

2. (pg 81) "Zooming fliers cannot be assaulted".

3. (pg. 80) "Models that physically fit under a flier model can move beneath it. Likewise, a flier can end it's move over such models. However, when moving this way, enemy models must still remain 1" away from the base of the flier, and the flier cannot end it's move with 1" of an enemy model."

Pretty cut and dried.

None of these points are relevant. See the last five pages.

Jidmah wrote:

Ostrakon wrote:Nowhere in the rules does it define "resolving shots" as what you posted either way. Snap shots can't be FIRED if they don't require BS, but by the time I know a flyer is under the line, the weapon has already fired and I've determined

So, there's a flier under your line. Did you snap fire your shot? No? Then no resolution against the flier.

what is hit by it. It all comes down to the page 7 Basic vs Advanced sidebar. Codex rules can supercede BRB rules in the case of a conflict. It's pretty clear cut actually.

You can hit the flier with your line, but you can not resolve the shot against it. The necron codex does not give you permission to resolve your shot against a target that you are not allowed to resolve against. In essence, the death-ray is nothing but a special form of auto-hitting. Weapons which auto-hit can not shoot at fliers either.

There is no need for a definition of "resolution". It's quite obvious what it mean. Resolving a shot mean just that. Resolve it, until there is nothing left to do with that shot.

If I had ever fired a shot at the flyer your logic might be relevant, but I didn't, and so, it isn't. If the game checks to see if the shot fired was a snap-shot during to-wound/remove casualties, I would have to undo firing the weapon in the first place in order to satisfy the rule. This doesn't make any sense. I drew a line, any model under the line is hit. No shots were fired at the flyer. End of story.

Since this thread seems to love going in circles, here is a list (of most) of the arguments made for and against the mawloc being able to hit a flyer

FOR
-The mawloc's attack is specifically a special rule, not a close combat attack, shooting attack, etc.
-The mawloc's attack is not listed specifically as a weapon, it just happens to use the large blast marker.
-The mawloc's attack is not a shooting attack, and Hard to Hit only applies to shooting.
-The fluff of the mawloc coming out of the ground has nothing to do with whether or not it can hit the flyer.
-The mawloc's attack does not have a weapon profile, so by the BGB's definition, it is not a weapon.
-The mawloc's attack is an infinite cynlinder upwards from the place where it is emerging, so the fact the model itself cannot reach the flyer is irrelevant to the attack.
-There are multiple examples of special rules that affect vehicles that are not shooting attacks and/nor happen in the shooting phase (Maleditions, wrecking ball, grabbin klaw, vector strike, sweep attacks,Necron Death Ray,etc.).
-The Hard to Hit rule only details how shooting is resolved, it is by no means an exclusive list of what can hit a flyer.
-A flyer cannot actually be that high, since even a simple rifle shot has a chance of hitting it.
-A flyer must still be moved after the Terror From The Deep attack, so why shouldn't it take the damage if it has to be moved?
-There is a difference between things that auto-hit and things that don't use Ballistic Score
-The mawloc uses the scatter rules of Deep Strike not blast weapon.
AGAINST
-The mawloc is still attacking using a template, which the Hard To Hit rule states should automatically miss.
-The mawloc does not have the skyfire rule and is using a blast marker, therefore it cannot hit.
-The mawloc cannot possibly hit a flyer, since the flyer is considered to be so high in the air.
-While it doens't have a weapon profile, it still has all the characteristics of a weapon (str, AP, and weapon type (large blast)), therefore, it should be counted as a weapon.
-Flyers cannot be assaulted, so the mawloc's attack would not resolve, since the mawloc is trying to occupy the space of the flyer's base.
-The base of the flyer is ignored except in assault and embarking/disembarking, so since the rule talks about bases or hulls, the mawloc's attack is not enough to reach the hull, therefore missing the flyer.
-Attacks that are not snapfire or skyfire cannot hit a flyer, since these are the only attacks referenced in the Hard to Hit rule.
-A mawloc could hit the flyer, but how would it know where the flyer was, since it would not be touching the ground.
-A mawloc's attacks are resolved the same way a blast weapon is (choose a point, scatter, then see who is hit).
-The Snap Fire rule states that a weapon that does not use ballistic skill cannot be snap-fired, and since the Mawloc cannot snap fire with its attack, the attack misses.

so, if anyone has new arguments, please feel free to post them, but otherwise, I feel this thread has outlived the topic it was arguing

Jidmah wrote:

Mightytim wrote:It can't

1. (pg 81) "Template, Blast, and Large blast weapons cannot hit fliers in zoom mode." The Mawloc attack uses a template.

It's neither an attack, nor a weapon, nor does it have the template, blast or large blast special rule.

I still don't buy this. The ability is used as a weapon by its controlling player. The ability has a STR and AP profile similar to a weapon. It uses a Large Blast marker to determine who is hit in the same manner as any other Large Blast weapon. If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, it's probably a duck. But it sounds like you're saying it's really a dog.

At the very least, anything that is being used to cause damage to another players units is a weapon. And if it's using a template or blast marker, it can't hit flyers. It really is that simple.

People have said it's not a weapon because it isn't listed in the back of the codex, that's a bunch of crap. Does that mean that an Eldar Farseer's Eldritch Storm psychic power (Str:3, AP:-, Large Blast, Pinning) can hit flyers because it's not listed in the back of the BRB?

Player1: Hey I'm going to deepstrike under you and use this abilty as a weapon to kill your flyer, but it's totally not a weapon because it's not on the list in the back of the book, Ok?

Ostrakon wrote:No shots were fired at the flyer. End of story.

So you claim that the death ray is not shooting?

undertow wrote:
I still don't buy this. The ability is used as a weapon by its controlling player. The ability has a STR and AP profile similar to a weapon. It uses a Large Blast marker to determine who is hit in the same manner as any other Large Blast weapon. If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, it's probably a duck. But it sounds like you're saying it's really a dog.

At the very least, anything that is being used to cause damage to another players units is a weapon. And if it's using a template or blast marker, it can't hit flyers. It really is that simple.

People have said it's not a weapon because it isn't listed in the back of the codex, that's a bunch of crap. Does that mean that an Eldar Farseer's Eldritch Storm psychic power (Str:3, AP:-, Large Blast, Pinning) can hit flyers because it's not listed in the back of the BRB?

Player1: Hey I'm going to deepstrike under you and use this abilty as a weapon to kill your flyer, but it's totally not a weapon because it's not on the list in the back of the book, Ok?

I've already answered this in a previous post and will do so again.

In the rulebook, it states "Every weapon has a profile", ergo, if it does not have a profile, it is not a weapon.

Terror from the deep hits once, has a str, has an AP, and uses the large blast marker, but it does not have a profile, therefore not a weapon, it is a special ability.

as for your example, it states in the rulebook that psychic shooting attacks count as firing an assault weapon, but are not considered such. So Eldritch Storm would roll snap-shot (unless it auto-hits), and is able to hit flyers

undertow wrote:

Jidmah wrote:

Mightytim wrote:It can't

1. (pg 81) "Template, Blast, and Large blast weapons cannot hit fliers in zoom mode." The Mawloc attack uses a template.

It's neither an attack, nor a weapon, nor does it have the template, blast or large blast special rule.

I still don't buy this. The ability is used as a weapon by its controlling player.

"Weapon" is actually defined in this edition of the rules. A "Weapon" must have a profile. Terror from the deep does not have a profile, neither implicit, nor explicit.

The ability has a STR and AP profile similar to a weapon. It uses a Large Blast marker to determine who is hit in the same manner as any other Large Blast weapon. If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, it's probably a duck. But it sounds like you're saying it's really a dog.

It might also be a robot or a silly person in a costume.
Besides, to refute your argument: Terror from the deep does not scatter, has no range, LoS or weapon type provided, can not be used in either shooting or assault and is used by a model not even on the board. So it's definitely not a weapon - Wrecking balls, chain snares or similar vehicle upgrades are a perfect examples of something that does damage but is not a weapon.

At the very least, anything that is being used to cause damage to another players units is a weapon. And if it's using a template or blast marker, it can't hit flyers. It really is that simple.

That is not a rule. "Weapon" is defined in this edition, so even if it single-handedly wipes out your opponent's army, it's not a weapon unless it has a profile and at least one weapon type. In addition, not everything using a blast marker is a blast weapon. Prime example: Dark Eldar Webway Portals use small blast markers.

People have said it's not a weapon because it isn't listed in the back of the codex, that's a bunch of crap. Does that mean that an Eldar Farseer's Eldritch Storm psychic power (Str:3, AP:-, Large Blast, Pinning) can hit flyers because it's not listed in the back of the BRB?

That, indeed, is a bunch of crap. While PSAs are weapons per definition, the list is also missing obvious things, like the big shoota.

Player1: Hey I'm going to deepstrike under you and use this abilty as a weapon to kill your flyer, but it's totally not a weapon because it's not on the list in the back of the book, Ok?

Jidmah: "You can't use that ability as a weapon, just like you can't use ATSKNF as a weapon."

Jidmah wrote:

Ostrakon wrote:No shots were fired at the flyer. End of story.

So you claim that the death ray is not shooting?

The death ray is shooting but it's not shooting at any distinct targets. The rules for the death ray state "To fire the death ray, [follow these instructions]." Following those specific instructions circumvent steps 1 and 2 of the shooting sequence defined on BRB pg 12 and take precedence because of the Basic vs Advanced sidebar on BRB pg 7.

As such the death ray never targets any of the units it hits. This is why there's an additional rule that you can only target units hit by the death ray with the tesla destructor if you shoot with both weapons in the same turn! If it actually targeted units there would be no need for that addendum.

Weapons with no to-hit roll can't be fired as snapshots but I'd only know if I need to fire a snapshot when determining target legality in step one of the shooting process on pg 12. I can't un-fire the weapon once I've followed the specific overriding instructions in the death ray rules, and nothing there states that it can't hit flyers. Since nothing is ever shot AT the flyer (the flyer is merely hit by the attack) it doesn't hit the "resolve as snapshot" restriction in Hard to Hit.

However, let me deviate and assume your logic is correct. Flyers can choose to have skyfire on any given shooting phase. If the death ray hits a flyer, by your logic it will circumvent Hard to Hit because of Skyfire. However, what if I have Skyfire and the line crosses over ground units? The skyfire rules state I can only fire at non-fliers as snap shots. See my above argument: I've already fired the damn thing, and can't undo that. There's no "shots can only be 'resolved' as snap shots" clause there. If I choose to have skyfire for a given shooting phase it would skirt around your entire argument either way.

re: death ray,
if I say "i'm resolving this shot that doesn't require me to hit at BS 6" would you be alright with me hitting a flyer?

You are shooting a weapon, no matter its rules, and you manage to somehow hit something, you are shooting at it.

Just like a blast weapon scattering way off a target is shooting at the unit that got shelled instead.

Just like a flamer shooting at one unit and hitting the unit behind it is shooting at the other unit, too.

If you were right, then suddenly all kinds of rules would stop working if you somehow hit a different unit than your target, including cover.

"Targeting" and "Shooting at" are two completely different things. If Wilhelm Tell targets an apple and hits his son instead, he still shot at his son.
Besides, the rules allowing you fire further weapons is a clear counter-argument to your point. The BRB tells us that all models must shoot at the same unit. Thus, the Deathray must be shooting at all unit it hits.

Skfire works the same. If you are disallowed to fire at something, you can't fire at it at all. Death Ray rules do not give permission to fire at models you are not allowed to shoot. If you choose skyfire and you hit a ground unit, you have just fired at it and thus broken a rule.

Jidmah wrote:You are shooting a weapon, no matter its rules, and you manage to somehow hit something, you are shooting at it.

Just like a blast weapon scattering way off a target is shooting at the unit that got shelled instead.

Just like a flamer shooting at one unit and hitting the unit behind it is shooting at the other unit, too.

If you were right, then suddenly all kinds of rules would stop working if you somehow hit a different unit than your target, including cover.

"Targeting" and "Shooting at" are two completely different things. If Wilhelm Tell targets an apple and hits his son instead, he still shot at his son.
Besides, the rules allowing you fire further weapons is a clear counter-argument to your point. The BRB tells us that all models must shoot at the same unit. Thus, the Deathray must be shooting at all unit it hits.

Skfire works the same. If you are disallowed to fire at something, you can't fire at it at all. Death Ray rules do not give permission to fire at models you are not allowed to shoot. If you choose skyfire and you hit a ground unit, you have just fired at it and thus broken a rule.

And your RAW basis for this is...?

The way cover works is determined by the target unit. If something scatters onto a different unit, they can't claim cover saves (unless in terrain) because I never declared them a target unit. Same goes for template wounds. So I am definitively NOT shooting at those units in those cases. They're simply being hit by the attack.

The distinction between "targeting" and "shooting at" is something you've concocted entirely. I can shoot at something but hit something else. "I shot at the apple, but I hit my son instead."

The Death Ray shooting in this case doesn't break any rules at all. It circumvents them because we follow the codex rules over the normal shooting sequence.

Jidmah wrote:

undertow wrote:

Jidmah wrote:It's neither an attack, nor a weapon, nor does it have the template, blast or large blast special rule.

I still don't buy this. The ability is used as a weapon by its controlling player.

"Weapon" is actually defined in this edition of the rules. A "Weapon" must have a profile. Terror from the deep does not have a profile, neither implicit, nor explicit.

undertow wrote:The ability has a STR and AP profile similar to a weapon. It uses a Large Blast marker to determine who is hit in the same manner as any other Large Blast weapon. If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, it's probably a duck. But it sounds like you're saying it's really a dog.

It might also be a robot or a silly person in a costume. Besides, to refute your argument: Terror from the deep does not scatter, has no range, LoS or weapon type provided, can not be used in either shooting or assault and is used by a model not even on the board. So it's definitely not a weapon - Wrecking balls, chain snares or similar vehicle upgrades are a perfect examples of something that does damage but is not a weapon.

Even if it has everything required for a weapon profile, it still doesn't have a weapon profile, meaning it is not a weapon. you cannot assume it is a weapon simply because it looks like it could be one and GW just didn't state it. Terror From the Deep is listed as a Special Rule in the mawloc's entry. Therefore, it can only be taken as a special rule, not a weapon. Special Rules can act exactly like weapons, but they still are not weapons.

SCvodimier wrote:Since this thread seems to love going in circles, here is a list (of most) of the arguments made for and against the mawloc being able to hit a flyer

FOR
-The mawloc's attack is specifically a special rule, not a close combat attack, shooting attack, etc.
-The mawloc's attack is not listed specifically as a weapon, it just happens to use the large blast marker.
-The mawloc's attack is not a shooting attack, and Hard to Hit only applies to shooting.
-The fluff of the mawloc coming out of the ground has nothing to do with whether or not it can hit the flyer.
-The mawloc's attack does not have a weapon profile, so by the BGB's definition, it is not a weapon.
-The mawloc's attack is an infinite cynlinder upwards from the place where it is emerging, so the fact the model itself cannot reach the flyer is irrelevant to the attack.
-There are multiple examples of special rules that affect vehicles that are not shooting attacks and/nor happen in the shooting phase (Maleditions, wrecking ball, grabbin klaw, vector strike, sweep attacks,Necron Death Ray,etc.).
-The Hard to Hit rule only details how shooting is resolved, it is by no means an exclusive list of what can hit a flyer.
-A flyer cannot actually be that high, since even a simple rifle shot has a chance of hitting it.
-A flyer must still be moved after the Terror From The Deep attack, so why shouldn't it take the damage if it has to be moved?
-There is a difference between things that auto-hit and things that don't use Ballistic Score
-The mawloc uses the scatter rules of Deep Strike not blast weapon.
AGAINST
-The mawloc is still attacking using a template, which the Hard To Hit rule states should automatically miss.
-The mawloc does not have the skyfire rule and is using a blast marker, therefore it cannot hit.
-The mawloc cannot possibly hit a flyer, since the flyer is considered to be so high in the air.
-While it doens't have a weapon profile, it still has all the characteristics of a weapon (str, AP, and weapon type (large blast)), therefore, it should be counted as a weapon.
-Flyers cannot be assaulted, so the mawloc's attack would not resolve, since the mawloc is trying to occupy the space of the flyer's base.
-The base of the flyer is ignored except in assault and embarking/disembarking, so since the rule talks about bases or hulls, the mawloc's attack is not enough to reach the hull, therefore missing the flyer.
-Attacks that are not snapfire or skyfire cannot hit a flyer, since these are the only attacks referenced in the Hard to Hit rule.
-A mawloc could hit the flyer, but how would it know where the flyer was, since it would not be touching the ground.
-A mawloc's attacks are resolved the same way a blast weapon is (choose a point, scatter, then see who is hit).
-The Snap Fire rule states that a weapon that does not use ballistic skill cannot be snap-fired, and since the Mawloc cannot snap fire with its attack, the attack misses.

so, if anyone has new arguments, please feel free to post them, but otherwise, I feel this thread has outlived the topic it was arguing

This is a Very good Synopsis of both sides of the Argument.

There are a few Rules that are incorrect though(Oddly enough every last one of them are in the Against Camp).

I will now Quote the Argument and explain the Fallacy:

-The mawloc is still attacking using a template, which the Hard To Hit rule states should automatically miss.
First off; Marker, but that is more of a Nit-pick. More appropriately, the Mawloc is not Attacking.

-The mawloc does not have the skyfire rule and is using a blast marker, therefore it cannot hit.
Skyfire still does not allow for Blast Markers to hit Flyers; Shooting attacks that Have the Blast, Large Blast of Template special rules simply cannot hit Flyers.

-While it doens't have a weapon profile, it still has all the characteristics of a weapon (str, AP, and weapon type (large blast)), therefore, it should be counted as a weapon.
Large Blast is a Special rule not a Weapon Type. 6th Edition is very Clear that the only Shooting Weapon types are Pistol, Rapid Fire, Heavy, Assault, Salvo, and Ordnance

-Flyers cannot be assaulted, so the mawloc's attack would not resolve, since the mawloc is trying to occupy the space of the flyer's base.
Beyond the fact that the Mawloc is not assaulting, How would one who believes this propose TFtD resolve when the Flyer is where the mawloc needs to be?

-The base of the flyer is ignored except in assault and embarking/disembarking, so since the rule talks about bases or hulls, the mawloc's attack is not enough to reach the hull, therefore missing the flyer.
This is purely incorrect; The Base of the Flyer is still used for proximity to Enemy models and cannot even end within 1" let alone occupy the same space.

-Attacks that are not snapfire or skyfire cannot hit a flyer, since these are the only attacks referenced in the Hard to Hit rule.
Quite the Opposite; Hard to hit Only effects Shooting attacks, as TFtD is not a Shooting Attack Hard to Hit does not Effect it(Evidence lies in Both the interaction rules for Tank Shocks and Rams, and for Assaulting Flyers)

-A mawloc's attacks are resolved the same way a blast weapon is (choose a point, scatter, then see who is hit).
Still not an attack, and TFtD is in no way resolved like a Blast weapon; The Marker is only ever pulled out if the Deepstrike scatters onto another model

-The Snap Fire rule states that a weapon that does not use ballistic skill cannot be snap-fired, and since the Mawloc cannot snap fire with its attack, the attack misses.
Again Not a Weapon

Thank you for the clarifications.

Just to be clear, I did not intend for say that every claim here was a valid one, simply that it was a claim that had been made during the course of the thread

SCvodimier wrote:Thank you for the clarifications.

Just to be clear, I did not intend for say that every claim here was a valid one, simply that it was a claim that had been made during the course of the thread

Oh, I know; the rules corrects weren't really addressed to you personally; just to the original claimants of those points.

Kommissar Kel wrote:I will now Quote the Argument and explain the Fallacy:

-The mawloc is still attacking using a template, which the Hard To Hit rule states should automatically miss.
First off; Marker, but that is more of a Nit-pick. More appropriately, the Mawloc is not Attacking.

The Mawlock is attacking (It is not using CC Attacks, but it is still attacking the flier).

Kommissar Kel wrote:-A mawloc's attacks are resolved the same way a blast weapon is (choose a point, scatter, then see who is hit).
Still not an attack, and TFtD is in no way resolved like a Blast weapon; The Marker is only ever pulled out if the Deepstrike scatters onto another model

Again, the Mawlock is attacking the enemy unit. (It is not using CC Attacks, but it is still attacking the flier).

Attack is defined in the rules as CC Attacks, attacking is not defined in the rules so we fall back on the common definition of attack (To attempt to inflict harm).

The Mawlock is attempt to inflict harm on the enemy unit.

DeathReaper wrote:

Kommissar Kel wrote:I will now Quote the Argument and explain the Fallacy:

-The mawloc is still attacking using a template, which the Hard To Hit rule states should automatically miss.
First off; Marker, but that is more of a Nit-pick. More appropriately, the Mawloc is not Attacking.

The Mawlock is attacking (It is not using CC Attacks, but it is still attacking the flier).

Kommissar Kel wrote:-A mawloc's attacks are resolved the same way a blast weapon is (choose a point, scatter, then see who is hit).
Still not an attack, and TFtD is in no way resolved like a Blast weapon; The Marker is only ever pulled out if the Deepstrike scatters onto another model

Again, the Mawlock is attacking the enemy unit. (It is not using CC Attacks, but it is still attacking the flier).

Attack is defined in the rules as CC Attacks, attacking is not defined in the rules so we fall back on the common definition of attack (To attempt to inflict harm).

The Mawlock is attempt to inflict harm on the enemy unit.

A Shooting Attack is both Defined and Referred to in the brb(in reference page 35, Fleshbane).

So you have 2 modes of Attack, that the BRB specifically references(Shooting and Melee)which TFtD is neither.

Then you have a Simple "attack" in the rules for Instant Death(I will Admit to a Mis-speaking in this regard, it is technically an Attack; but not any Attack that Hard to Hit effects); which is any method of Placing a to-wound roll against the target model.

So while a S6 "Attack" is being made, and is using a Blast Marker; this attack is not in any way a Shooting Attack; and even more specifically not a shooting attack that uses a Blast Marker.