Because my current army, (World Eaters Khorne army lead by Kharn) has been bashed to death with the nerf bat, I'm looking for a new army to start.
However, this isnt just a thread for me to find a new army, its also a thread to discuss which armies have been nerfed and which have been buffed, and why.



(Yes, I know theres a thread for just about every army, but its not very easy to go looking through all of them for answers)

Why would you start a new army now if chaos is going to get a new codex in August?

JohnnoM wrote:Because my current army, (World Eaters Khorne army lead by Kharn) has been bashed to death with the nerf bat, I'm looking for a new army to start.
However, this isnt just a thread for me to find a new army, its also a thread to discuss which armies have been nerfed and which have been buffed, and why.



(Yes, I know theres a thread for just about every army, but its not very easy to go looking through all of them for answers)

Most things Nurgle have been buffed quite a bit: FNP can be taken against AP 2/1 weapons as well as PFists, T 4(5) is now just T5, allies means that any Chaos Marines with a Mark of Nurgle now benefit from Epidemius' Tally abilities.

Whats wrong with World Eaters in 6th?

Assault has been nerfed a bit by makign charges random, but they have also been increased to 2D6.


i think there is somethgin in every armythat has been buffed and somethgin that has been nerfed. I can only speak for necrons really but here goes:


BUFFS:
**Destroyers - Preferred Enemy mean re-roll hit and 1's to wound (heavy Dstroyers are now very reliable Terminator Killer)
**Gauss now removed hull points on a 6 - massive boost to warriors
**The Nightscythe is arguably the best transport/flyer in the game since it can Zoom up to 36" and still deploy it's troops via "Invasion Beams"
**StormTeks are now a premier tank killer thanks to their Assault 4 Haywire staff
**Rapid Fire measn you can move your Warriors/Deathmarks/Gauss Immortals and still shoot at max range


NERFS
**Scarabs no longer get +1 to Cover save, although they do now atuo-pass all terrain tests
**CCB movement has been nerfed since Flat out s now done in the shootign phase, this means you can only do those lovely sweep attack up to 12" maximum. No more 24" fly-bys.
**Nightfighting is no way near as effcetive as it was, making Solar Pulses less of a "must take".

Praxiss wrote:Assault has been nerfed a bit by makign charges random, but they have also been increased to 2D6.


i think there is somethgin in every armythat has been buffed and somethgin that has been nerfed. I can only speak for necrons really but here goes:


BUFFS:
**Destroyers - Preferred Enemy mean re-roll hit and 1's to wound (heavy Dstroyers are now very reliable Terminator Killer)
**Gauss now removed hull points on a 6 - massive boost to warriors
**The Nightscythe is arguably the best transport/flyer in the game since it can Zoom up to 36" and still deploy it's troops via "Invasion Beams"
**StormTeks are now a premier tank killer thanks to their Assault 4 Haywire staff
**Rapid Fire measn you can move your Warriors/Deathmarks/Gauss Immortals and still shoot at max range


NERFS
**Scarabs no longer get +1 to Cover save, although they do now atuo-pass all terrain tests
**CCB movement has been nerfed since Flat out s now done in the shootign phase, this means you can only do those lovely sweep attack up to 12" maximum. No more 24" fly-bys.
**Nightfighting is no way near as effcetive as it was, making Solar Pulses less of a "must take".

New night fighting makes Immotekh good in any necron army though.... as giving opponents cover doesn't matter when most of your stuffs AP -

Halfpast_Yellow wrote:Whats wrong with World Eaters in 6th?

Many, many things.

1. Nerf to rhinos with hull points means my army could be out in the open before I even move.

2. You can't assault out of rhinos, at all. Even if they haven't moved.

3. Furious Charge is only +1 str, not str and init.

4. Kharn the Betrayer now has a power axe, aka, he now strikes last is exchange for +1 strength, whoopy.

These added together with the fact that combat has been nerfed overall, and shooting has been buffed means im screwed.

Praxiss wrote:Assault has been nerfed a bit by makign charges random, but they have also been increased to 2D6.


i think there is somethgin in every armythat has been buffed and somethgin that has been nerfed. I can only speak for necrons really but here goes:


BUFFS:
**Destroyers - Preferred Enemy mean re-roll hit and 1's to wound (heavy Dstroyers are now very reliable Terminator Killer)
**Gauss now removed hull points on a 6 - massive boost to warriors
**The Nightscythe is arguably the best transport/flyer in the game since it can Zoom up to 36" and still deploy it's troops via "Invasion Beams"
**StormTeks are now a premier tank killer thanks to their Assault 4 Haywire staff
**Rapid Fire measn you can move your Warriors/Deathmarks/Gauss Immortals and still shoot at max range


NERFS
**Scarabs no longer get +1 to Cover save, although they do now atuo-pass all terrain tests
**CCB movement has been nerfed since Flat out s now done in the shootign phase, this means you can only do those lovely sweep attack up to 12" maximum. No more 24" fly-bys.
**Nightfighting is no way near as effcetive as it was, making Solar Pulses less of a "must take".

You forgot your fearless units no longer take no-retreat wounds, and warscythes are AP1

JohnnoM wrote:

Halfpast_Yellow wrote:Whats wrong with World Eaters in 6th?

Many, many things.

1. Nerf to rhinos with hull points means my army could be out in the open before I even move.

2. You can't assault out of rhinos, at all. Even if they haven't moved.

3. Furious Charge is only +1 str, not str and init.

4. Kharn the Betrayer now has a power axe, aka, he now strikes last is exchange for +1 strength, whoopy.

These added together with the fact that combat has been nerfed overall, and shooting has been buffed means im screwed.

Whilst I agree to points 2-4, point 1 is valid in 5th. I've had games where my army was put out in the open before i got to move. Happens in a game of luck.

Maybe try some raiders, and some IoK CSM?

I can't afford raiders, and points 2, 3 and 4 are enough to make me want to scrap the army anyways.

Guard got unequivocally worse. Yes, russes got better, but chimeras are now twice as easy to kill with autocannons and power blobs are dead.

The only reason why I'm not up in arms is that I'm actually having a hard time seeing if anybody got BETTER. If everybody got worse, then my choice army getting worse isn't that much of a deal.

I think marines got better, but only builds no one really plays now.
Biker armies with plasma and dev support is now a really good build with HoW and multiple toughness values.
Likewise, typhus and plague marines and nurgle bikers are good. Better still if you run them with epidemus (I would say this is a top tier build at the moment). Chaos termie champions are also characters (with precision strikes) so that's a good buff.

Obviously fliers are now a big thing, but expensive in money and points so no one is running lists of them yet.

However, most of the current builds in the meta are now 'worse' but probably all relatively so.

Well, Eldar and DE have been nerfed. I'd stay away from them. now. Eldar will get a codex next year.

Blood Angels are good with all their special units: DC, Sanguinary Guard, FnP, Assault Marines, Vanguard.

Nids got better.
The FnP and cover changes, along with the increased chances of Night Fighting, increases the survivability of MCs against shooting, and we still retain our vehicle/terminator killiness.
Other aspects of the army are up and down, and it'll be while before a consensus is reached on how Nids will handle fliers (some think it will be a minor issue, since Nids traditionally advance quickly, limiting firing angles.)

Not too sure abotu BA to be honest. played agaisnt them yesterday. My barge Lord took out a squad of Ang. Guard and a Librarian. A squad of Vangurds DOA'd in and was taken out in 2 rounds of shooting, mostly by Rapid Fire overwatch.

Didn't help that, by habit he always puts hsi Sanguinary Priests at the front of the squad, so they were the first to die, thsu robbing him of his FNP rolls.

I've advised him to take his assault terminators from now on - They are nigh unkillable in CC now and there's not many armies that can put out high volumes of Ap2 fire.



IG have had a boost by way of Snapshot and Overwatch. Their tansk can now move and shoot everything. And if they do get charged they will smash it wilth Overwtach (especially with Hostshot lasguns...rapid fire Ap3).

Things not to charge, ever: Burna Boys, Storm Troopers, Thousand Sons.

just from a week of playing

buff

Necrons with Gauss vs. Hull Points and their doom scythe which has 4 for some reason

Wolves with Rp and Njal being the best psychic defense in the game right now (and eldrad) also long fangs able to knock AV12 vehicles and below off the field quickly.

Demons. Went from a bottom tier army to a mid tier probably with ability to work with CSM and the vector strike/MC buff.



Nerfed

Eldar - Beyond Eldrad, their vehicles are weak and up to 12" charge makes them vulnerable. Also, no saves on perils hurts them when they cast mega powers every round.

Orcs - no +1 initiative on FC means they don't strike before Necrons now or at the same time as guard. Their vehicles are super weak and lose hull points at an alarming rate. New game deployment/mission types don't suit their play style (table corners, short corners).

Doomscythe only has 3 hull points.

Many BA units are better, though our traditional 5th ed go to units got worse.

Buff:
DC now pumps out 5 attacks while charging, FNP now applies to anything not ID and no more being kite around. Probably went from the worst unit in the codex to one of the best.
San. Guards: 2+ save makes them actually reasonably durable, especially with a San. Priest attach or within 6" to give them FNP.
Termies: Just like everyone else's termies they are hard to kill this edition, compounded with FNP.
Bikes: T5 with FNP, they will get that extra 5+ against anything short of Railgun strength attacks.

Nerf:
Razorback: I am afraid their glory days are over. While they are still cheap fire support, you cant really spam them to victory the same way you could in 5th.
San. Priest: They are more prone to get killed this edition with precision strike and wound allocation rules.


Most changes that affect other marines apply here as well.

deggreg@yahoo.com wrote:just from a week of playing

buff

Necrons with Gauss vs. Hull Points and their doom scythe which has 4 for some reason

Wolves with Rp and Njal being the best psychic defense in the game right now (and eldrad) also long fangs able to knock AV12 vehicles and below off the field quickly.

Demons. Went from a bottom tier army to a mid tier probably with ability to work with CSM and the vector strike/MC buff.



Nerfed

Eldar - Beyond Eldrad, their vehicles are weak and up to 12" charge makes them vulnerable. Also, no saves on perils hurts them when they cast mega powers every round.
Orcs - no +1 initiative on FC means they don't strike before Necrons now or at the same time as guard. Their vehicles are super weak and lose hull points at an alarming rate. New game deployment/mission types don't suit their play style (table corners, short corners).

All farseers still have the ghosthelm to negate a PotW on a 3+. Eldars are without doubt the best psykers atm. In addition to the RoWard defence many units will have a 5+ or 4+ Deny the witch roll.

I think infantry guard with Vendettas and some Russesa can be great. Just ally some DW for assault support and you got the best of two worlds really.

Templars got slapped for no reason at all. No more Preferred Enemy in CC, Emperor's Champion can't be the Warlord and we've got no Characters other than our HQs.

AlmightyWalrus wrote:Templars got slapped for no reason at all. No more Preferred Enemy in CC, Emperor's Champion can't be the Warlord and we've got no Characters other than our HQs.

Meh, templars are fine. Rage instead of PE means that chaplains are useful now, and while we lack characters in units, we have unchallengeable PF's.

Praxiss wrote:Not too sure abotu BA to be honest. played agaisnt them yesterday. My barge Lord took out a squad of Ang. Guard and a Librarian. A squad of Vangurds DOA'd in and was taken out in 2 rounds of shooting, mostly by Rapid Fire overwatch.

Didn't help that, by habit he always puts hsi Sanguinary Priests at the front of the squad, so they were the first to die, thsu robbing him of his FNP rolls.

I've advised him to take his assault terminators from now on - They are nigh unkillable in CC now and there's not many armies that can put out high volumes of Ap2 fire.



IG have had a boost by way of Snapshot and Overwatch. Their tansk can now move and shoot everything. And if they do get charged they will smash it wilth Overwtach (especially with Hostshot lasguns...rapid fire Ap3).

Things not to charge, ever: Burna Boys, Storm Troopers, Thousand Sons.

Thousand sons dont get to overwatch. I cant remember offhand if it's because they are slow and purposeful, or relentless.

Nate668 wrote:

AlmightyWalrus wrote:Templars got slapped for no reason at all. No more Preferred Enemy in CC, Emperor's Champion can't be the Warlord and we've got no Characters other than our HQs.

Meh, templars are fine. Rage instead of PE means that chaplains are useful now, and while we lack characters in units, we have unchallengeable PF's.

Yes, no PE means that Chaplains are useful. That doesn't change the fact that it's a nerf. Furthermore, while unchallengable PFs are nice, it also means that any Character we have in that squad will have to accept a challenge or back down, whereas other Codices have the option of accepting the challenge on a Sergeant.

Well, it appears that armies that seem to be nerfed can be buffed by using appropriate allies.

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

Nate668 wrote:

AlmightyWalrus wrote:Templars got slapped for no reason at all. No more Preferred Enemy in CC, Emperor's Champion can't be the Warlord and we've got no Characters other than our HQs.

Meh, templars are fine. Rage instead of PE means that chaplains are useful now, and while we lack characters in units, we have unchallengeable PF's.

Yes, no PE means that Chaplains are useful. That doesn't change the fact that it's a nerf. Furthermore, while unchallengable PFs are nice, it also means that any Character we have in that squad will have to accept a challenge or back down, whereas other Codices have the option of accepting the challenge on a Sergeant.

Yep, any change with pros and cons is a nerf if you ignore the pros.

These are my overall impressions. Some units from each codex got buffed and nurfed. Ill give a short summary of each.
This is NOT a list of most powerful to least powerful. GK got nurfed, but are still a great codex.

Buffed
Orks.........losing fearless wounds in assault means green tide armies are very tough to dislodge. Green tide shootas will be a power army.
C:SM.......ATSKNF, combat tactics, regrouping with 6" of enemies. They have access to flyers and bikes as troops.
BA............Jump troops got a nice boost. AV 13 predator spam got a boost. Mephiston can more easily chump many ICs.
Necrons....New power codex for 6th. Time for GK to give up its throne.
DE.............More foot troops == more poison shot targets. Can ally with Eldar. Foot' Deldar will be more common.
Nids...........MCs better. Vehicles are more killable now.
Daemons...Flying circus got a lot better.


Roughly Same
IG............Best flyers in the game. Russ squadrens are like bricks. Blobs less effective. Chimeras more vulnerable. PG vets FTW.
SW..........Lack of flyers hurts. GH dual PG squads with terminator WG got much better. ML spam nurfed. TW calv is more scary.
Eldar........Mech'dar is dead. Foot'dar is buffed with DE allies. Guardian jetbikes got better.
Tau..........Broadsides losing dual shot sucks. Gaining allies to shore up crap assault helps a lot (TH/SS termies for example).
Black Templars....Not assaulting from Rhino's hurts. Random assaults can be good or bad for them. Their pretty close to the same though.


Nurfed
GK...........Force weapons are now AP3. Psydreads can now be stopped with 3 hits. While their still good, their no longer 'best codex by far'.
SOBs.......Your DCAs can't even assault out of Rhinos any more. The only purpose of DCAs it to bring them as allies for Jacob.
CSM........Jump packs DPs sucks. Not assaulting from Rhinos suck.

Nate668 wrote:

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

Nate668 wrote:

AlmightyWalrus wrote:Templars got slapped for no reason at all. No more Preferred Enemy in CC, Emperor's Champion can't be the Warlord and we've got no Characters other than our HQs.

Meh, templars are fine. Rage instead of PE means that chaplains are useful now, and while we lack characters in units, we have unchallengeable PF's.

Yes, no PE means that Chaplains are useful. That doesn't change the fact that it's a nerf. Furthermore, while unchallengable PFs are nice, it also means that any Character we have in that squad will have to accept a challenge or back down, whereas other Codices have the option of accepting the challenge on a Sergeant.

Yep, any change with pros and cons is a nerf if you ignore the pros.

No, sorry, the only time Rage is better than our old Preferred Enemy is if you're charging with a Chaplain. It doesn't work on subsequent rounds of close combat and doesn't work if you get charged. While having unchallengable Fists are nice, I'd rather have Power Fists that actually deal damage.

labmouse42 wrote:These are my overall impressions. Some units from each codex got buffed and nurfed. Ill give a short summary of each.
This is NOT a list of most powerful to least powerful. GK got nurfed, but are still a great codex.

Buffed
Orks.........losing fearless wounds in assault means green tide armies are very tough to dislodge. Green tide shootas will be a power army.
C:SM.......ATSKNF, combat tactics, regrouping with 6" of enemies. They have access to flyers and bikes as troops.
BA............Jump troops got a nice boost. AV 13 predator spam got a boost. Mephiston can more easily chump many ICs.
Necrons....New power codex for 6th. Time for GK to give up its throne.
DE.............More foot troops == more poison shot targets. Can ally with Eldar. Foot' Deldar will be more common.
Nids...........MCs better. Vehicles are more killable now.
Daemons...Flying circus got a lot better.


Roughly Same
IG............Best flyers in the game. Russ squadrens are like bricks. Blobs less effective. Chimeras more vulnerable. PG vets FTW.
SW..........Lack of flyers hurts. GH dual PG squads with terminator WG got much better. ML spam nurfed. TW calv is more scary.
Eldar........Mech'dar is dead. Foot'dar is buffed with DE allies. Guardian jetbikes got better.
Tau..........Broadsides losing dual shot sucks. Gaining allies to shore up crap assault helps a lot (TH/SS termies for example).
Black Templars....Not assaulting from Rhino's hurts. Random assaults can be good or bad for them. Their pretty close to the same though.


Nurfed
GK...........Force weapons are now AP3. Psydreads can now be stopped with 3 hits. While their still good, their no longer 'best codex by far'.
SOBs.......Your DCAs can't even assault out of Rhinos any more. The only purpose of DCAs it to bring them as allies for Jacob.
CSM........Jump packs DPs sucks. Not assaulting from Rhinos suck.

I agree with pretty much everything in this list except the SoB entry. I think their FAQ actually gave them quite a boost.

I missed it. What happened to help the SOBs out?

labmouse42 wrote:These are my overall impressions. Some units from each codex got buffed and nurfed. Ill give a short summary of each.
This is NOT a list of most powerful to least powerful. GK got nurfed, but are still a great codex.

Buffed
Orks.........losing fearless wounds in assault means green tide armies are very tough to dislodge. Green tide shootas will be a power army.
C:SM.......ATSKNF, combat tactics, regrouping with 6" of enemies. They have access to flyers and bikes as troops.
BA............Jump troops got a nice boost. AV 13 predator spam got a boost. Mephiston can more easily chump many ICs.
Necrons....New power codex for 6th. Time for GK to give up its throne.
DE.............More foot troops == more poison shot targets. Can ally with Eldar. Foot' Deldar will be more common.
Nids...........MCs better. Vehicles are more killable now.
Daemons...Flying circus got a lot better.


Roughly Same
IG............Best flyers in the game. Russ squadrens are like bricks. Blobs less effective. Chimeras more vulnerable. PG vets FTW.
SW..........Lack of flyers hurts. GH dual PG squads with terminator WG got much better. ML spam nurfed. TW calv is more scary.
Eldar........Mech'dar is dead. Foot'dar is buffed with DE allies. Guardian jetbikes got better.
Tau..........Broadsides losing dual shot sucks. Gaining allies to shore up crap assault helps a lot (TH/SS termies for example).
Black Templars....Not assaulting from Rhino's hurts. Random assaults can be good or bad for them. Their pretty close to the same though.


Nurfed
GK...........Force weapons are now AP3. Psydreads can now be stopped with 3 hits. While their still good, their no longer 'best codex by far'.
SOBs.......Your DCAs can't even assault out of Rhinos any more. The only purpose of DCAs it to bring them as allies for Jacob.
CSM........Jump packs DPs sucks. Not assaulting from Rhinos suck.

I dunno why people don't think BA got an overall buff. Nerfs came to some of the cheap, annoying easy options like razorspam that were more dependable in 5th, but they have a bunch of other ones to replace it. The psychic powers options are gorgeous, sanguinary guard are a unit that I can feasibly use without feeling like I'm only using them cause they look cool, Death Company are raging monsters that can actually focus on your intended target without being kited away, and preds/baals/vindis are a great option. VV's are more viable, sternguard have interestingly been given more attention by fellow players for consideration, and Astorath just became essential if you want to make more effective use of DC marines, as well as doubling as a monstrous chaplain for them.

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

Nate668 wrote:

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

Nate668 wrote:

AlmightyWalrus wrote:Templars got slapped for no reason at all. No more Preferred Enemy in CC, Emperor's Champion can't be the Warlord and we've got no Characters other than our HQs.

Meh, templars are fine. Rage instead of PE means that chaplains are useful now, and while we lack characters in units, we have unchallengeable PF's.

Yes, no PE means that Chaplains are useful. That doesn't change the fact that it's a nerf. Furthermore, while unchallengable PFs are nice, it also means that any Character we have in that squad will have to accept a challenge or back down, whereas other Codices have the option of accepting the challenge on a Sergeant.

Yep, any change with pros and cons is a nerf if you ignore the pros.

No, sorry, the only time Rage is better than our old Preferred Enemy is if you're charging with a Chaplain. It doesn't work on subsequent rounds of close combat and doesn't work if you get charged. While having unchallengable Fists are nice, I'd rather have Power Fists that actually deal damage.

Right, the pros are that you're now better on the charge in a unit with a chaplain, and the ability no longer forces you to assault. The cons are that you're now slightly weaker on the charge without chaplains than you were before, and worse outside of the charge turn for sure. The point I'm trying to make is that not every change has to be a nerf or a buff. Some things, like AACNMTO in my opinion, just work differently now without clearly being better or worse than they were before.

Also power fists don't kill anything if they get challenged and wiped out before they get to attack, preferred enemy or no.

Nate668 wrote:
Also power fists don't kill anything if they get challenged and wiped out before they get to attack, preferred enemy or no.

That goes both ways though; we'd be able to kill off enemy Power Fists in challenges as well.

Regardless of the size of the AAC nerf, put it this way; what got better? Terminators, Assault Marines and... I guess unchallengable Power Fists... We weren't exactly a stellar Codex before, now that we'll be relying on getting the charge we'll probably be worse off than before, which wasn't needed at all.

Titan Atlas wrote:

labmouse42 wrote:These are my overall impressions. Some units from each codex got buffed and nurfed. Ill give a short summary of each.
This is NOT a list of most powerful to least powerful. GK got nurfed, but are still a great codex.

Buffed
Orks.........losing fearless wounds in assault means green tide armies are very tough to dislodge. Green tide shootas will be a power army.
C:SM.......ATSKNF, combat tactics, regrouping with 6" of enemies. They have access to flyers and bikes as troops.
BA............Jump troops got a nice boost. AV 13 predator spam got a boost. Mephiston can more easily chump many ICs.
Necrons....New power codex for 6th. Time for GK to give up its throne.
DE.............More foot troops == more poison shot targets. Can ally with Eldar. Foot' Deldar will be more common.
Nids...........MCs better. Vehicles are more killable now.
Daemons...Flying circus got a lot better.


Roughly Same
IG............Best flyers in the game. Russ squadrens are like bricks. Blobs less effective. Chimeras more vulnerable. PG vets FTW.
SW..........Lack of flyers hurts. GH dual PG squads with terminator WG got much better. ML spam nurfed. TW calv is more scary.
Eldar........Mech'dar is dead. Foot'dar is buffed with DE allies. Guardian jetbikes got better.
Tau..........Broadsides losing dual shot sucks. Gaining allies to shore up crap assault helps a lot (TH/SS termies for example).
Black Templars....Not assaulting from Rhino's hurts. Random assaults can be good or bad for them. Their pretty close to the same though.


Nurfed
GK...........Force weapons are now AP3. Psydreads can now be stopped with 3 hits. While their still good, their no longer 'best codex by far'.
SOBs.......Your DCAs can't even assault out of Rhinos any more. The only purpose of DCAs it to bring them as allies for Jacob.
CSM........Jump packs DPs sucks. Not assaulting from Rhinos suck.

I dunno why people don't think BA got an overall buff. Nerfs came to some of the cheap, annoying easy options like razorspam that were more dependable in 5th, but they have a bunch of other ones to replace it. The psychic powers options are gorgeous, sanguinary guard are a unit that I can feasibly use without feeling like I'm only using them cause they look cool, Death Company are raging monsters that can actually focus on your intended target without being kited away, and preds/baals/vindis are a great option. VV's are more viable, sternguard have interestingly been given more attention by fellow players for consideration, and Astorath just became essential if you want to make more effective use of DC marines, as well as doubling as a monstrous chaplain for them.

BA got nerfed hard. One or two units becoming good (that are also terribly overpriced) doesn't account for most of our global abilities getting the hammer (reserving, FnP, FC, cover saves)

Titan Atlas wrote:I dunno why people don't think BA got an overall buff. Nerfs came to some of the cheap, annoying easy options like razorspam that were more dependable in 5th, but they have a bunch of other ones to replace it. .

Agreed.

Razorspam got nurfed badly. BA overall got a buff.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Stoffer wrote:BA got nerfed hard. One or two units becoming good (that are also terribly overpriced) doesn't account for most of our global abilities getting the hammer (reserving, FnP, FC, cover saves)

* You can FNP from power/force weapons
* If you want cover saves, bring an aegis defense line
* Start with 1/2 your models on the board -- like devs in ruins
* FC does not give you +1 init, but jump troops get Hammer and can reroll assault distance.

I know its easy to get focused on the negative, but look at the whole picture.

labmouse42 wrote:

Titan Atlas wrote:I dunno why people don't think BA got an overall buff. Nerfs came to some of the cheap, annoying easy options like razorspam that were more dependable in 5th, but they have a bunch of other ones to replace it. .

Agreed.

Razorspam got nurfed badly. BA overall got a buff.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Stoffer wrote:BA got nerfed hard. One or two units becoming good (that are also terribly overpriced) doesn't account for most of our global abilities getting the hammer (reserving, FnP, FC, cover saves)

* You can FNP from power/force weapons
* If you want cover saves, bring an aegis defense line
* Start with 1/2 your models on the board -- like devs in ruins
* FC does not give you +1 init, but jump troops get Hammer and can reroll assault distance.

I know its easy to get focused on the negative, but look at the whole picture.

Power weapons were never my issue. Most squads you're up against will have 1-2 low AP guns and some form of powerweapon. FnP was useful for shrugging off the other 9 guns in the squad. I'd always accept that a squad would shoot at me and I'd lose someone from the plasma but 3+/4+ my way out of everything else. That's not happening anymore.

I already play with devs but this means I'm locked into devs instead of being able to experiment with flyers etc as support.

Yeah, I get hammer and reroll if I move 6 in the movement phase. 6 + 2d6 is awful if you're including overwatch which might kill your first guy.

Our upgrades are basically DC, which will cost you north of 400 points fully kitted out and Sanguinary Guard, who are about as situational as any unit gets.

Edit: 6th is a shooty edition, calling a codex centered around assaulting buffed is pretty :V

Ailaros wrote:Guard got unequivocally worse. ... power blobs are dead.

Whoa there. Move and shoot 24" (sometimes twice with FRFSRF), and power axes on the Sergeants and Commissars is somehow worse?

DarknessEternal wrote:

Ailaros wrote:Guard got unequivocally worse. ... power blobs are dead.

Whoa there. Move and shoot 24" (sometimes twice with FRFSRF), and power axes on the Sergeants and Commissars is somehow worse?

Plus overwatch, flying Vendettas, and moving around HW's and firing at full effect.

I suppose it won't be a transition from one edition without players being butthurt about changes to their particular army and how they'll have to adjust.

Also, SG are awesome. Sure, you can't really send them into combat with terminators (it is a WASTE, that's what DC + chaplain are for now) but they wreck almost anything else. Nothing quite like going into an angry unit bearing all power swords and coming out completely unscathed.

Stoffer wrote:Power weapons were never my issue. Most squads you're up against will have 1-2 low AP guns and some form of powerweapon. FnP was useful for shrugging off the other 9 guns in the squad. I'd always accept that a squad would shoot at me and I'd lose someone from the plasma but 3+/4+ my way out of everything else. That's not happening anymore.

Really? My friends who played BA said that GKs shut them down. The GKs ability to force weapon them down with no save or FNP ment they lost every assault. At least now you have a chance.

In regards to the 3+/4+ you realize its now a 3+/5+ right? A bolter wound went from 16.33% chance of killing the BA to 22.22%. How bad of a nurf is that really?

Stoffer wrote:I already play with devs but this means I'm locked into devs instead of being able to experiment with flyers etc as support.

Why is that the case? If you want to bring flyers, then bring a few fast attack units on the board to start with. You can put 1/2 your army in reserves (rounding up) and flyers don't count for this limit. Therefore you could bring the following..

On the board
- Captain on bike
- Bike Squad
- Priest on Bike
- Dev Squad
- Priest with Dev Squad
- Baal Predator
- Baal Predator

In reserve
- BA Assault Squad
- BA Assault Squad
- BA Assault Squad
- BA Assault Squad
- BA Assault Squad
- BA Assault Squad
- Priest with jump pack
- Priest with jump pack
- Stormraven
- Stormraven

Stoffer wrote:Yeah, I get hammer and reroll if I move 6 in the movement phase. 6 + 2d6 is awful if you're including overwatch which might kill your first guy.

A snap shot bolter shot has a 1/54 killing a FNP BA. The assault distances have been nurfed, but what are you trying to assault with your DoA army? You have an 80% to get a 18" threat range with your assault. In every DoA army I've played, they have always dropped closer than 18" away (usually melta'ing me on the way in)

Stoffer wrote:Edit: 6th is a shooty edition, calling a codex centered around assaulting buffed is pretty :V

If you feel that way, make your BA shooty -- its easy to do. If you think BA suck, then sell your BA and play a new army. At this point it seems like you already made up your mind to do one of those two.

DarknessEternal wrote:

Ailaros wrote:Guard got unequivocally worse. ... power blobs are dead.

Whoa there. Move and shoot 24" (sometimes twice with FRFSRF), and power axes on the Sergeants and Commissars is somehow worse?

Ailaros might be right, i'm afraid.

Move & shoot 24" ... but what ? The weakest troop weapon of WH40k galaxy ? Even accounting some extra shot opportunities with FRFSRF order, our laser gun has too humble firepower.
Nothing comparable to the boost of Gauss guns, bolters and pulse rifle get with this V6 rule. Against a lot of targets, laser guns remain negligible. Most other basic guns can now glance light vehicles down to a pile of metal chips. We can't.

Roughly speaking, there are three horde armies in W40k : Orks, Tyranids and Guard.
While 'nids got fearless through synapse and orks got fearless through numbers, IG blobs relied on one expensive yet untargetable character to boost morale and obtain stubborn status.
We were grinding opposing squads slowly in HTH, while having reliable long range firepower (in these squads or elsewhere).

Actually, on IG side, our fragile commissars and sergeants can get picked by barrages, precision shots, precision HTH strikes, challenges (where most other armies are better at).
That's a lot of threats. Toughness 3, 1W, 5+ save : it's garbage ! The little gain from power axes will not compensate that fragility.
Commissar price made a sense in 5th rule set when he was untargetable, now it's ridiculous.
On the other hand, fearless has no disadvantage now : all the better for Orks & 'nids.

Meanwhile in 6th, big hordes will get difficult to hide behind cover, just like it was in 4th edition. Those who played back then will remember how it looked like. In the case horde player can't hide everyone in cover because of squad footprint, they have access to handy solutions to open ground dangers : kustom force field for orks and Venomthrope or FNP for 'nids. IG players have nothing like so. Chimera parking lot is a potential car scrap yard by turn 3, due to side AV 10 and new HP system.

Both our potent solutions for our troops (Chimera spam & blobs) got gimped. What's left ? Will independent squads backed by LRBT hold ? Will Valkyries save the day ?
I doubt so...

labmouse42 wrote:

Stoffer wrote:Power weapons were never my issue. Most squads you're up against will have 1-2 low AP guns and some form of powerweapon. FnP was useful for shrugging off the other 9 guns in the squad. I'd always accept that a squad would shoot at me and I'd lose someone from the plasma but 3+/4+ my way out of everything else. That's not happening anymore.

Really? My friends who played BA said that GKs shut them down. The GKs ability to force weapon them down with no save or FNP ment they lost every assault. At least now you have a chance.

In regards to the 3+/4+ you realize its now a 3+/5+ right? A bolter wound went from 16.33% chance of killing the BA to 22.22%. How bad of a nurf is that really?

Stoffer wrote:I already play with devs but this means I'm locked into devs instead of being able to experiment with flyers etc as support.

Why is that the case? If you want to bring flyers, then bring a few fast attack units on the board to start with. You can put 1/2 your army in reserves (rounding up) and flyers don't count for this limit. Therefore you could bring the following..

On the board
- Captain on bike
- Bike Squad
- Priest on Bike
- Dev Squad
- Priest with Dev Squad
- Baal Predator
- Baal Predator

In reserve
- BA Assault Squad
- BA Assault Squad
- BA Assault Squad
- BA Assault Squad
- BA Assault Squad
- BA Assault Squad
- Priest with jump pack
- Priest with jump pack
- Stormraven
- Stormraven

Stoffer wrote:Yeah, I get hammer and reroll if I move 6 in the movement phase. 6 + 2d6 is awful if you're including overwatch which might kill your first guy.

A snap shot bolter shot has a 1/54 killing a FNP BA. The assault distances have been nurfed, but what are you trying to assault with your DoA army? You have an 80% to get a 18" threat range with your assault. In every DoA army I've played, they have always dropped closer than 18" away (usually melta'ing me on the way in)

Stoffer wrote:Edit: 6th is a shooty edition, calling a codex centered around assaulting buffed is pretty :V

If you feel that way, make your BA shooty -- its easy to do. If you think BA suck, then sell your BA and play a new army. At this point it seems like you already made up your mind to do one of those two.

1. Sure, it's a buff against Grey Knights, but against every other army it's a nerf. Across the board that means I'm worse off in 1 out of 15 or so battles or so? Added to that, I lost the initiative bonus offfurious charge, which was pretty crucial in terms of getting an alphastrike that made the counterpunch more manageable (unless I take the enticing offer of moving 6 and chancing it on 2d6. Average of 13 inch threat range, woo hoo!), all this from a 75 point model that you'd need 2-3 of in every single army. Right now I'm paying 75 for a 5+ FnP and 1+ Str. Great. In the grand scheme of things, 10 man assault squads are expensive and need to soak up a ton of fire every turn, so it won't ever be a single bolter shot. I will be whatever can reach my 2-3 squads. Blast templates, overwatch etc and when you have to shed that amount of wounds, it's pretty bad.

2. You're bringing units not because you want to bring them, but to fill out the list so you can reserve. I'm not sure Baal Preds are better off in this codex and I'd consider the bikes if they actually fit on the list. But if you're making bike lists, there are better codexes for that.

3. Sure, but then you're not getting Hammer and end up striking at the same time as whoever you're charging, which is fairly bad news.

4. I picked up a few boxes of Grey Knights on Monday! Was either that or Orks and I'm not sure I can paint 200 models

Ravajaxe wrote:Move & shoot 24" ... but what ? The weakest troop weapon of WH40k galaxy ?

Hey man, give credit where its due. Check out the poor eldar guardians. They got the biggest shaft in the game.

Ravajaxe wrote:Both our potent solutions for our troops (Chimera spam & blobs) got gimped. What's left ? Will independent squads backed by LRBT hold ? Will Valkyries save the day ?

Read the squadren rules. A squadren of 3 Russ' is nigh indestructable unless your hitting it close with a MG. You used to have to allocate multiple hits across the squad, now you have to keep hitting the closest Russ till its dead.

Blobs still get heavy weapons, which is something ork blobs can't. An ork squad of 30 boys objective camping can't do anything. At least the IG blob can shoot some LCs. If 'Bring it Down' can work on flyers or flying MCs, it helps even more. A TL gun just under a 1/3 chance of hitting flyers.
I'm not saying blobs are awesome, and they are no longer the CC deathtrap they were, but their still good at range.

So how did Chimeras get gimped? I get how razorbacks and rhinos were gimped, but how did the cheap AV 12 vehicle with 2 heavy weapons get gimped?

I won't get my rulebook until tomorrow, but I saw a squadron of demolishers, all with sponson heavy flamers and hull heavy flamers rape a unit trying to assault them with the snap fire. 9D3 S5 AP4 hits. The two survivors failed to kill the tanks, who just shifted left and fired again.

I'm very happy to have access to 2+ save jump troops and a storm raven to kill demolishers at range.

-Matt

Vehicles cant overwatch.

Armies will have to change.

Also Kharn having an axe means that he is AP 2, so can violate terminators.

You are still assaulting at the same time as you could before. You just have to spend a turn in the open now

5th:
turn 1: Move 12
Turn2: Move 12
Turn three disembark 8 assault 6
Total: 38

6th
Turn 1: Move 12, flat out 6
Turn 2: Move 6, Disembark 6
Turn 3: Move 6, assault 7ish
Total: 43ish

So you are actually moving just as fast. Now some vehicles will die(same as fifth) but you are still getting to assault at the same turn but the actual distance you cover is greater.

Leth wrote:
Also Kharn having an axe means that he is AP 2, so can violate terminators.

Of course, it also lets him suffer Instant Death from their Power Fists.

JohnnoM wrote: points 2, 3 and 4 are enough to make me want to scrap the army anyways.

I agree, you should scrap your army. I'll give you $10 for it. Heck, I'll even pay for shipping!

Leth wrote:You are still assaulting at the same time as you could before. You just have to spend a turn in the open now

5th:
turn 1: Move 12
Turn2: Move 12
Turn three disembark 8 assault 6
Total: 38

6th
Turn 1: Move 12, flat out 6
Turn 2: Move 6, Disembark 6
Turn 3: Move 6, assault 7ish
Total: 43ish

So you are actually moving just as fast. Now some vehicles will die(same as fifth) but you are still getting to assault at the same turn but the actual distance you cover is greater.

Except in 5th you had the option to assault turn 2 if there were available targets. You glossed that fact over pretty nicely.

Stoffer wrote:

4. I picked up a few boxes of Grey Knights on Monday! Was either that or Orks and I'm not sure I can paint 200 models

......the worst form of betrayal...

wuestenfux wrote:Well, Eldar and DE have been nerfed. I'd stay away from them. now. Eldar will get a codex next year.

Blood Angels are good with all their special units: DC, Sanguinary Guard, FnP, Assault Marines, Vanguard.

D. Eldar got great IMO! Night Fighting units will kick ass! Plus, in my eyes, 6th is all about manuverability and positioning, something that D. Eldar are kings of.

Eldar, yeah, agreed on their nerf. And again no contest on Blood Angels, they got 20x better!

J Mac wrote:

wuestenfux wrote:Well, Eldar and DE have been nerfed. I'd stay away from them. now. Eldar will get a codex next year.

Blood Angels are good with all their special units: DC, Sanguinary Guard, FnP, Assault Marines, Vanguard.

D. Eldar got great IMO! Night Fighting units will kick ass! Plus, in my eyes, 6th is all about manuverability and positioning, something that D. Eldar are kings of.

Eldar, yeah, agreed on their nerf. And again no contest on Blood Angels, they got 20x better!

THANK YOU. I mean, 20x is obviously enthusiastic exaggeration, but still, a great improvement and makes me excited, especially since I had only just started in December of '11 and now this update buffs them, it's awesome

J Mac wrote:
D. Eldar got great IMO!

Indeed. No longer being irrevocably married to paper transports to kill stuff will be a god send.

DarknessEternal wrote:

J Mac wrote:
D. Eldar got great IMO!

Indeed. No longer being irrevocably married to paper transports to kill stuff will be a god send.

Can you elaborate? Night Fight is all well and good, but only happens 50% of the time first turn. Excluding vehicles, out of 25 units in the codex, 13 are no longer viable to use (basically any assault unit). So Dark Eldar are limited to shooty units only now. Granted, the shooty part has been buffed in general. But how do you justify over half the DE codex being useless now, as Dark Eldar being buffed?

The Dark Eldar codex was generally perceived as one of the most balanced codices in the history of GW. After the release of MEQ/TEQhammer 40k, half of it is no longer viable. I don't see the balance in that.

Mandor wrote:
Can you elaborate? Night Fight is all well and good, but only happens 50% of the time first turn. Excluding vehicles, out of 25 units in the codex, 13 are no longer viable to use (basically any assault unit).

That statement is patently ridiculous.

DarknessEternal wrote:

Mandor wrote:
Can you elaborate? Night Fight is all well and good, but only happens 50% of the time first turn. Excluding vehicles, out of 25 units in the codex, 13 are no longer viable to use (basically any assault unit).

That statement is patently ridiculous.

And your comment is even more so.

Before playing I thought my Dark Eldar would be nerfed but I acutally tabled my opponent's blood angels (lances really kill vehicles easily now it seems). Disintegrator cannons are a beast! heavy 3 str 5 ap 2 shots... with probably less vehicles to worry about in 6th my guess is that people will really swap out some lances for disintegrators... oh and razorwing jetfighter! It kicked ass with it's missiles and disintegrator cannons and it is sooo hard to hit now (night shields got more interesting too btw)

Mandor wrote:

DarknessEternal wrote:

Mandor wrote:
Can you elaborate? Night Fight is all well and good, but only happens 50% of the time first turn. Excluding vehicles, out of 25 units in the codex, 13 are no longer viable to use (basically any assault unit).

That statement is patently ridiculous.

And your comment is even more so.

I'm not the one who claimed half a codex was non-viable without providing the list of those units or reasons why.

So how did Long Fang Missle laucher spam get nerfed?
They can now glace the living Gak out of any AV12 and under, with the ability to actually put down a LR with four 6's.
The fact that vehicles got nerfed just means they got more powerful, and if its a cover isssue well then go buy a shiny new metal wall.
The only real nerf to LF is that lack of being able to hit a flyer, which granted is a minor bad thorn in the side but only currently three armies can field transport flyers IRC.
So I beleive that LF spam will just be as strong as before, just not a must have since other things also got buffed.

DarknessEternal wrote:

Ailaros wrote:Guard got unequivocally worse. ... power blobs are dead.

Whoa there. Move and shoot 24" (sometimes twice with FRFSRF), and power axes on the Sergeants and Commissars is somehow worse?

Over all? Yes, they're very dead. FRF getting slightly better is a tiny benefit that nowhere near covers all they've lost.

Let me get this straight: you can now take FNP saves against Power Swords and Plasma Guns,

You get a free I10 autohit at strength 4 with -all- of your scoring jump pack infantry,

Yes, your FNP was downgraded from 4+ to 5+, yes, you now have no initiative bonus on Furious Charge,

But has anyone actually run the math on this and come up with the conclusion that this is a net nerf?

6 Assault Marines with Hammer of Wrath produce 6 hits on the charge generating 3 wounds, 1 of which kills an MEQ. For sake of comparison, an additional Assault Marine on the charge would hit on 4's, wound on 3's, with 3 attacks. .5*.66*.33*3 = .33, e.g. with Hammer of Wrath with 6 Assault Marines you can equal the damage output of another 3 Assault Marines on the charge.

TedNugent wrote:Let me get this straight: you can now take FNP saves against Power Swords and Plasma Guns,

You get a free I10 autohit at strength 4 with -all- of your scoring jump pack infantry,

Yes, your FNP was downgraded from 4+ to 5+, yes, you now have no initiative bonus on Furious Charge,

But has anyone actually run the math on this and come up with the conclusion that this is a net nerf?

6 Assault Marines with Hammer of Wrath produce 6 hits on the charge generating 3 wounds, 1 of which kills an MEQ. For sake of comparison, an additional Assault Marine on the charge would hit on 4's, wound on 3's, with 3 attacks. .5*.66*.33*3 = .33, e.g. with Hammer of Wrath with 6 Assault Marines you can equal the damage output of another 3 Assault Marines on the charge.

Yeah, I'm thoroughly not convinced that it's a nerf in general, and the people who claim it to be don't really make a detailed case.

TedNugent wrote:Let me get this straight: you can now take FNP saves against Power Swords and Plasma Guns,

You get a free I10 autohit at strength 4 with -all- of your scoring jump pack infantry,

Yes, your FNP was downgraded from 4+ to 5+, yes, you now have no initiative bonus on Furious Charge,

But has anyone actually run the math on this and come up with the conclusion that this is a net nerf?

6 Assault Marines with Hammer of Wrath produce 6 hits on the charge generating 3 wounds, 1 of which kills an MEQ. For sake of comparison, an additional Assault Marine on the charge would hit on 4's, wound on 3's, with 3 attacks. .5*.66*.33*3 = .33, e.g. with Hammer of Wrath with 6 Assault Marines you can equal the damage output of another 3 Assault Marines on the charge.

You get hammer IF you only move 6 in your movement phase and make the charge distance 2d6 through overwatch. That's not exactly pure upside. You can do it the old fashioned way, moving 12 in your movement phase and going 2d6 without reroll, but you'll be hitting on the same initiative or under as everyone else, except for guard, necrons and probably orcs. Hardly a buff.

Ailaros wrote:Guard got unequivocally worse. Yes, russes got better, but chimeras are now twice as easy to kill with autocannons and power blobs are dead.

The only reason why I'm not up in arms is that I'm actually having a hard time seeing if anybody got BETTER. If everybody got worse, then my choice army getting worse isn't that much of a deal.

I am getting the feeling that everyone will end up having to use Allies to be remotely competitive, because everyone has been nerfed (to varying degrees). I guess it's GW's way of getting people to buy more models as much as anything else (not saying this is a bad thing).

I don't have many qualms with this because I can simply slot in some Dark Angels Deathwing into my Guard quite nicely (amongst other ideas). However, I just know you'll get WAAC type players abusing (or rather 'utilising') this and we'll see stupid combinations of Allies and units that are just there to win and have no interest in fluff. Some people are in it to win it and don't care about fluff or anything which is fine, each their own, but that isn't really why I play 40k (I like winning, but not WAAC) and so for me this is negative...But, it also opens the game up as well as the modelling potential (Tau Human Auxillaries? Blood Axe Ork mercenaries? Traitor Guard with Daemons or CSM...ad infinitum), which I see as a positive.

FifteenHours wrote:

Ailaros wrote:Guard got unequivocally worse. Yes, russes got better, but chimeras are now twice as easy to kill with autocannons and power blobs are dead.

The only reason why I'm not up in arms is that I'm actually having a hard time seeing if anybody got BETTER. If everybody got worse, then my choice army getting worse isn't that much of a deal.

I am getting the feeling that everyone will end up having to use Allies to be remotely competitive, because everyone has been nerfed (to varying degrees). I guess it's GW's way of getting people to buy more models as much as anything else (not saying this is a bad thing).

I don't have many qualms with this because I can simply slot in some Dark Angels Deathwing into my Guard quite nicely (amongst other ideas). However, I just know you'll get WAAC type players abusing (or rather 'utilising') this and we'll see stupid combinations of Allies and units that are just there to win and have no interest in fluff. Some people are in it to win it and don't care about fluff or anything which is fine, each their own, but that isn't really why I play 40k (I like winning, but not WAAC) and so for me this is negative...But, it also opens the game up as well as the modelling potential (Tau Human Auxillaries? Blood Axe Ork mercenaries? Traitor Guard with Daemons or CSM...ad infinitum), which I see as a positive.

I don't think my Necrons need any allies.

That seems true.

Allies aren't really that OP when you think of it; your spending aprox. 200 pts on allies just in a troop/HQ that normally doesn't really 'fit' how your army works. Not to mention why many people woul want allies (psychic pwrs) are random or don't work on allies....

No, if anything can be seen as a WAAC play it would be flierspam. Beauty is, you lose if at end of game turn you have no units.... So its high risk, high reward.

That said, allies does benefit older armies that need the boost, bringing them back into the 'playable' realm

Zid wrote:Allies aren't really that OP when you think of it; your spending aprox. 200 pts on allies just in a troop/HQ that normally doesn't really 'fit' how your army works. Not to mention why many people woul want allies (psychic pwrs) are random or don't work on allies....

No, if anything can be seen as a WAAC play it would be flierspam. Beauty is, you lose if at end of game turn you have no units.... So its high risk, high reward.

That said, allies does benefit older armies that need the boost, bringing them back into the 'playable' realm

Yep. When I heard about allies I thought it would break the game, but it looks like it came out remarkably balanced. As someone else mentioned, it's also a great opportunity to introduce "slimmer" armies that basically only function as allies, which would be amazing.

Necrons are strong right now because they are the only codex designed for 6th edition. It's not surprising that their units work better in the game right now than any other army. When new codexs come out I expect normal GW codex creep to apply, the only question is when do you get yours. I play c:sm so i know i won't have to wait to long, some might take a while as always (or possibly never happening and just geting some ok FAQ's like giving skyfire to some units as a default or buyable upgrade).

Titan Atlas wrote:

TedNugent wrote:Let me get this straight: you can now take FNP saves against Power Swords and Plasma Guns,

You get a free I10 autohit at strength 4 with -all- of your scoring jump pack infantry,

Yes, your FNP was downgraded from 4+ to 5+, yes, you now have no initiative bonus on Furious Charge,

But has anyone actually run the math on this and come up with the conclusion that this is a net nerf?

6 Assault Marines with Hammer of Wrath produce 6 hits on the charge generating 3 wounds, 1 of which kills an MEQ. For sake of comparison, an additional Assault Marine on the charge would hit on 4's, wound on 3's, with 3 attacks. .5*.66*.33*3 = .33, e.g. with Hammer of Wrath with 6 Assault Marines you can equal the damage output of another 3 Assault Marines on the charge.

Yeah, I'm thoroughly not convinced that it's a nerf in general, and the people who claim it to be don't really make a detailed case.

It had to be me to do it (lol). Losing the +1I from Furious Charge hurts the Blood Angels the most. Before they'd be getting 2-3 attacks each at S5 rather than 1 S4 attack at I10. They're getting more attacks now, sure, but they're weaker and they're going to suffer more casualties as a trade-off. Here's the math (assuming no one dies from shooting or anything like that):

For the mathhammer, I'll do a fairly typical build: 10 Assault Marines with a Powerfist Sergeant, 2 Meltaguns and a Sanguinary Priest vs 9 Grey Hunters and a Powerfist Wolf Guard (because it would be no fun with Tactical Marines haha). It's worth keeping in mind that the Blood Angels have a bit of an advantage from the Priests' buffs, so the number of wounds they're throwing out there are worth keeping in perspective.

5th Ed
Assault Marines get the charge, striking at S5 I5. 25 attacks from the mooks, 3 powerfist attacks and 4 attacks from the Priest. 12.5 hits, 8.25 wounds, 5.45 unsaved wounds (plus 1 from the Sanguinary Priest). The Sergeant will also get 2 more kills on his turn.
Knocked down to 3 Grey Hunters and the Wolf Guard, the Space Wolves (who have probably gotten counter-attack) will only get 1.49 wounds (plus 2 from the Wolf Guard). Clearly, the Blood Angels kicked their ass this turn with 8 kills to 3-4 casualties, largely because they got to get the alpha strike, and because FNP kept their casualties to a minimum.

6th Ed
(Since I don't have the 6th ed rulebook yet, I'm not gonna number crunch the casualties that the Blood Angels would suffer from Overwatch, but they would probably lose 1-2 Marines [depending on whether the meltagun + combi-melta hits], which hurts their assault chances even more)
Assault Marines get the charge, getting a Hammer of Wrath attack at S4 I10. 5 wounds, 3 unsaved wounds. Both sides then strike simultaneously. The Assault Marines still get 5.45 unsaved wounds (plus 1 from the Sanguinary Priest), but now they have to contend with 4.58 unsaved wounds from the Grey Hunters. The Sergeant/Wolf Guard still get 2 wounds as well (assuming that either of them survived or that they didn't challenge each other of course). That totals out to 9-11 kills to 4-7 casualties (again, not including those they would likely have lost from overwatch, although I didn't include the Grey Hunters who would have been killed by the Assault Marines' shooting either).

So, while they might get slightly more kills, their staying power has dropped pretty significantly and their effectiveness in subsequent assaults has dropped sharply. However, this is of course in comparison to MEQ. Against models with I5 or higher, I would imagine the numbers show that Assault Marines have improved. However, this is evidence of my opinion of how Blood Angels haven't gotten nearly as good as people think. Sure, Death Company and Sanguinary Guard went from being 2 absolutely useless units to being ridiculous and decent, respectively. But they lost a lot of their resiliency and are going to take a lot more damage that they're going to have trouble compensating for.

You have to also factor in the BA shooting, as that can't be taken lightly.

Like, I see you wrote that you didn't include that, but that's more influential than possible overwatch wounds.

Titan Atlas wrote:You have to also factor in the BA shooting, as that can't be taken lightly.

Yeah, I said in the post that I didn't factor in either, but ultimately we're going for best-case scenario here, only really looking at how it affects the already one-sided assault.

I forgot to include the tail end of my reply, so be sure to read that part.

I don't think you realize though that you'll also likely be seeing a lot more support fire backing up my assaults, possibly some vindicators, possibly something else, and now that vindis full blast templates are full strength, I can more confidently dash in to attack the remains.

Also, a good assaulting player, if given the opportunity, will place the models strategically, to take out the most dangerous threats, and this will be much more deadly as I can take out any fist-bearing sgt's without having to resort to a challenge.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
haha, I edited my post 20 seconds before you made the reply, nice. Not much going on for either of us tonight, huh?

Yeah, but you know me, I'm gonna try to take out that Vindicator immediately and/or get out of Line of Sight.

The blast template strength thing only really changed for vehicles by the way.

I'm aware, but still, I think you'll find it worrisome.

Stoffer wrote:

4. I picked up a few boxes of Grey Knights on Monday! Was either that or Orks and I'm not sure I can paint 200 models

look up washing.. my orks take about 2 min per boy. i have 180 boys so about 6 hours of painting

The new rules hurts a lot of assault units, assault marines gotten off rather lightly compare to some of them.
For example, DE wychs dies to over watch fire easier than most and lose substantially amount of threat range due to fleet change.

Arguably the SM chapters benefit from ally rules the most, as they can now add previously chapter unique units into their own list. Units like scoring DW Termies, Scoring Bikes, Scoring Assault Marines, Death company, Grey Hunters, Long Fang, Storm Talon and Storm Raven.

Stoffer wrote:

Zid wrote:Allies aren't really that OP when you think of it; your spending aprox. 200 pts on allies just in a troop/HQ that normally doesn't really 'fit' how your army works. Not to mention why many people woul want allies (psychic pwrs) are random or don't work on allies....

No, if anything can be seen as a WAAC play it would be flierspam. Beauty is, you lose if at end of game turn you have no units.... So its high risk, high reward.

That said, allies does benefit older armies that need the boost, bringing them back into the 'playable' realm

Yep. When I heard about allies I thought it would break the game, but it looks like it came out remarkably balanced. As someone else mentioned, it's also a great opportunity to introduce "slimmer" armies that basically only function as allies, which would be amazing.

Yepper. Though I will admit, I'm running an immotekh shooty list with Mephiston punching things as my 6th test for next weekends "welcome to 6th" tourney... I'll have reps up, should be fun running 2 stupid specials that take up 1/4th of my points lol

The loss of the bonus to iniative when furious charging is the one nerf in this new edition that actually hurts marines more than any other race.

DE - with it would strike at I6. There are very few things that are actually I6 that the DE would hate to run into that still striking at I5 will actually matter.

Orks - The boost to I3 in the old dex only ever put them on par with guard. Everything else didn't matter. The still struck after all space marines even if they charged. Now the guard get to strike first, but truthfully the overwatch will probably do more damage than guard CC. That and the big killers of orks Nobs with powerclaws always struck at I1 anyway. Add to it that orks didn't have any squad borne power weapons / special CCW striking simultaneous with Necrons isn't going to matter. Its still all on the Nob.

Nids - Sorry, don't know squat about nids.

Marines - Going at I5 is huge because of the vast amount of other I4 armies out there. Other marines. The I5 always made a difference. But now, they loose that huge advantage. They still go before orks, guard, etc. so no change there, but no longer striking before other marines is just a massive nerf.

Jayden63 wrote:Nids - Sorry, don't know squat about nids.

Termagaunts are I4 base, so it hurts some units similarly to Marines. A squad of Termagaunts is pretty weak, but with I5 they'd be able to inflict a reasonable amount of casualties before being destroyed. Being S4 for a turn wasn't the good part about Adrenal Glands, it was the +1I. Most other units in the Codex won't really notice though, since they didn't get much of a benefit from the I5 (Hormagaunts, Genestealers, Tyrants, etc) or because the upgrade was too damned expensive (Carnifexes).

Jayden63 wrote:The loss of the bonus to iniative when furious charging is the one nerf in this new edition that actually hurts marines more than any other race.

DE - with it would strike at I6. There are very few things that are actually I6 that the DE would hate to run into that still striking at I5 will actually matter.

True, the initiative nerf of FC hardly affects Dark Eldar assault. Then again, with Overwatch versus T3Sv5+, nerfed assault range, no assault from reserve and WWP, no AP2 assault weapons (except for a single one on a 57pts T3Sv3+ model), Dark Eldar have no reason to assault any more at all. Arguably, you could abuse the Fortune/Shadowfield combo for one decent assault unit in your army and model your Archon with a Power Axe. This setup will set you down about 200pts at the very least and doesn't solve the transport problem.

Assault no longer is a competitive option for Dark Eldar. Which is a shame, because half the codex is about assault.

In my opinion some of the more ranged armies have been buffed, like the SM and Tau. Melee centric armies have been Nerfed a bit by the new power weapon rules, namely the Orks and Tyranids, and even the gray knights to some extent.

DarknessEternal wrote:

J Mac wrote:
D. Eldar got great IMO!

Indeed. No longer being irrevocably married to paper transports to kill stuff will be a god send.

so if they arent married to them then they are out in the open taking 24" bolter fire. They died pretty fast to 12" bolter fire so this is supposed to be better? Other than a init1 power axe they have no AP2 weapons and very few DE can stand up to init 1 with their crappy toughness and saves.


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J Mac wrote:

wuestenfux wrote:Well, Eldar and DE have been nerfed. I'd stay away from them. now. Eldar will get a codex next year.

D. Eldar got great IMO! Night Fighting units will kick ass! Plus, in my eyes, 6th is all about manuverability and positioning, something that D. Eldar are kings of.

DE bikes got a buff,
while
wyches, trueborn, ravagers, archons, incubi got shafted


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Mandor wrote:

Jayden63 wrote:

DE - with it would strike at I6. There are very few things that are actually I6 that the DE would hate to run into that still striking at I5 will actually matter.

True, the initiative nerf of FnP hardly affects Dark Eldar assault. Then again, with Overwatch versus T3Sv5+, nerfed assault range, no assault from reserve and WWP, no AP2 assault weapons (except for a single one on a 57pts T3Sv3+ model), Dark Eldar have no reason to assault any more at all. Arguably, you could abuse the Fortune/Shadowfield combo for one decent assault unit in your army and model your Archon with a Power Axe. This setup will set you down about 200pts at the very least and doesn't solve the transport problem.

Assault no longer is a competitive option for Dark Eldar. Which is a shame, because half the codex is about assault.

over half the codex is assault and now none of it is good in assault.

farrowking37 wrote:In my opinion some of the more ranged armies have been buffed, like the SM and Tau. Melee centric armies have been Nerfed a bit by the new power weapon rules, namely the Orks and Necrons, and even the gray knights to some extent.

Necrons are a melee-centric army?

Also, how did Power Weapon changes nerf Orks? They all have Power Klaws anyway.

Mandor wrote:

DarknessEternal wrote:

J Mac wrote:
D. Eldar got great IMO!

Indeed. No longer being irrevocably married to paper transports to kill stuff will be a god send.

Can you elaborate? Night Fight is all well and good, but only happens 50% of the time first turn. Excluding vehicles, out of 25 units in the codex, 13 are no longer viable to use (basically any assault unit). So Dark Eldar are limited to shooty units only now. Granted, the shooty part has been buffed in general. But how do you justify over half the DE codex being useless now, as Dark Eldar being buffed?

The Dark Eldar codex was generally perceived as one of the most balanced codices in the history of GW. After the release of MEQ/TEQhammer 40k, half of it is no longer viable. I don't see the balance in that.

Gladly! While you are right that the assault elements of D. Eldar were somewhat nerfed, their shooting element of their army got a lot better. To me, 5th ed was dominated by the shooting phase. Which is why you always saw the same armies winning tournaments (i.e. IG, Wolves, and even GK with their psyflemen). In 6th, the game has changed a bit but still largely dominated by the shooting phase. The difference is the integration of new units such as flyers and units that were never used in 5th are now in a renaissance. Infantry lists will be popping up all over the place if you ask me. While D.Eldar don't have many options to field an all infantry list, they have some decent options for firepower in general. Warriors can spam (forget the name) the S8 AP2 18" weapons, your ravagers can do the same, a void raven (with the new flyer rules) may not be such a bad option, especially with implosion missiles. All this shooting backed up by night vision, which is way under rated IMO. While night fight only happens 50% in the first turn, it is almost guaranteed in every game. If night fight doesn't come on turn 1, you roll again on turn 4 and every turn after until it becomes night fight.

Again, I will have to agree that D. Eldar got boned on their assault elements, but that doesn't mean they won't work. They still can provide decent number of attacks at a high initiative with poison! I want to take a moment to talk about initiative. Initiative as a whole got boned in 6th. I think GW realized how good high initiative actually was and try to balance it out. They did so by adding AP to weapons, and modifying the initiative to those lower AP weapons (for example: axes are unwieldy but at AP2.) D. Eldar has a distinct advantage over most armies by striking first! While those attacks may not ignore armor like they used to, don't under estimate forcing saves before anyone else gets to strike. On top of that, higher initiative gets to pile in first, meaning you get positioning over your opponent (most of the time), and if you recall, I believe positioning and maneuverability are the key to success in 6th. Not to mention FNP got a huge buff, something D. Eldar has an abundance of. Fearless got a huge buff (not taking fearless saves anymore), again something D. Eldar has an abundance of. Beasts are now freaking amazing, so your beast packs (while monetarily expensive) are maniacs on the field. Forgot to mention fleet that lets you reroll runs and charge!!!! With charge range getting a boost, (or nerd depending how you look at it) fleet is a luxury and be glad you have it!

Mandor wrote:

Jayden63 wrote:The loss of the bonus to iniative when furious charging is the one nerf in this new edition that actually hurts marines more than any other race.

DE - with it would strike at I6. There are very few things that are actually I6 that the DE would hate to run into that still striking at I5 will actually matter.

True, the initiative nerf of FnP hardly affects Dark Eldar assault. Then again, with Overwatch versus T3Sv5+, nerfed assault range, no assault from reserve and WWP, no AP2 assault weapons (except for a single one on a 57pts T3Sv3+ model), Dark Eldar have no reason to assault any more at all. Arguably, you could abuse the Fortune/Shadowfield combo for one decent assault unit in your army and model your Archon with a Power Axe. This setup will set you down about 200pts at the very least and doesn't solve the transport problem.

Assault no longer is a competitive option for Dark Eldar. Which is a shame, because half the codex is about assault.

Honestly, the FC affects Orks the most. Poor bastards striking at I2/3. Even Necrons can keep up with them now!

Overwatch can be bad, agreed. I think people are over thinking it anyway. Again positioning and maneuverability being key, keep this in mind. Charge with your base models (no upgrades) in the front ranks. That way if (and thats a big if) any overwatch shots get through, you don't lose important models. Overwatch only hits on a 6, not very good chances of wounding your D. Eldar. Don't wyches get invuls in the assault phase? Or does it read in assault? Big difference there on grounds for overwatch.

If you want to complain about transports, get in line. Everyones transports get nerfed! You can't assault out of them even if they HAVEN'T moved!!! You still have some of the best transports in the game. Yes, they are fragile (but what vehicle isn't anymore?). However they are fast, provide great firebase, and have some excellent defense (with night shields and flicker fields).

Here's my summary, I believe that D. Eldar was the first codex to come out with 6th ed in mind. As Phil Kelly is an excellent rule/fluff writer, he kept in mind the player in 5th ed but looked towards 6th ed with the rules in mind. D. Eldar was a very balanced army in 5th ed with extreme potential, but it took one hell of a general to maximize its potential. 6th ed will be no different, except in the way that every army will play that way. No army has an auto win button (that we see so far! I'm sure with allies that someone will find the combo that dominates). The game has evolved, the player must evolve with it. You have rights to believe that your army got nerfed. However, before that conclusion is finalized, reconsider that maybe your build of your army got nerfed. It sucks, but it happens.

Hope I elaborated well enough

Exergy wrote:

DarknessEternal wrote:

J Mac wrote:
D. Eldar got great IMO!

Indeed. No longer being irrevocably married to paper transports to kill stuff will be a god send.

so if they arent married to them then they are out in the open taking 24" bolter fire. They died pretty fast to 12" bolter fire so this is supposed to be better? Other than a init1 power axe they have no AP2 weapons and very few DE can stand up to init 1 with their crappy toughness and saves.

I think out of any army, DE webway armies have to most reason to be butthurt about 6th. It's not even an army anymore. Only having 1/2 an army in reserve and not being able to assault when you come out compleatly nerfed that build.

Overwatch can make a dent. playing against BA the other day i took out a Dread using Overwatch when it treid to charge a 10 warrior blob with a StormTek (assault 4 haywire! LOL!).

the his Vanguard charged me and i managed to take out 2 from overwatch. not great but in a squad of 5 (the remianing 3 did butcher and sweep the etire unit though).

I call that lucky on your part! That isn't an easy feat, but if anyone were to make it easy, Necrons would be the army to do it.

DarknessEternal wrote:

Exergy wrote:

DarknessEternal wrote:

J Mac wrote:
D. Eldar got great IMO!

Indeed. No longer being irrevocably married to paper transports to kill stuff will be a god send.

so if they arent married to them then they are out in the open taking 24" bolter fire. They died pretty fast to 12" bolter fire so this is supposed to be better? Other than a init1 power axe they have no AP2 weapons and very few DE can stand up to init 1 with their crappy toughness and saves.

Why are they out in the open? That's a fairly dumb way to play.

Their guns shoot back at 24" and you get more of them per point.

I was always under the impression Blasters and Dark Lances were AP2, maybe your codex is different than mine.

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

farrowking37 wrote:In my opinion some of the more ranged armies have been buffed, like the SM and Tau. Melee centric armies have been Nerfed a bit by the new power weapon rules, namely the Orks and Necrons, and even the gray knights to some extent.

Necrons are a melee-centric army?

Also, how did Power Weapon changes nerf Orks? They all have Power Klaws anyway.

To be entirely fair, you can make a melee crons list. Every slot but Troops and Heavy Support has melee options. HQ can take CCB Warscythe Overlords or Destroyer Lords, Elite can spam Praetorians, Lychguard, or Flayed Ones. Fast Attack has Wraiths and Scarabs. You could also argue that Spyders are melee options for heavy support (although not very good ones). Actually, if you think about it, the crons codex is filled with melee options.

However, I agree that Necrons are not at their best when built around melee, with all-round I2. Lychguard got a huge nerf to sword and board, and if they want to deal with AP2 they have to go with Warscythes, taking away their Invulnerable Save. Praetorians got a boost, but I'm not sure how big of a boost it is. I will consider running Rods of the Covenant now though. Flayed Ones were strong melee blobs in numbers, but I remember there were always better options. Scarabs were only good at killing vehicles (and Scarab Congo line before it was FAQ'd out) and have a less important role now that vehicles are easier to kill. Wraiths were the only strong CC option in 5th, and are going to be even better now that there's a huge boost to coils. When compared with the huge buff to Destroyers, Gauss Immortals, Warriors with and without an Ark, both Heavy Barges, and Fliers, I don't think that CC Crons is the way to go.

Mandor wrote:

Jayden63 wrote:The loss of the bonus to iniative when furious charging is the one nerf in this new edition that actually hurts marines more than any other race.

DE - with it would strike at I6. There are very few things that are actually I6 that the DE would hate to run into that still striking at I5 will actually matter.

True, the initiative nerf of FC hardly affects Dark Eldar assault. Then again, with Overwatch versus T3Sv5+, nerfed assault range, no assault from reserve and WWP, no AP2 assault weapons (except for a single one on a 57pts T3Sv3+ model), Dark Eldar have no reason to assault any more at all. Arguably, you could abuse the Fortune/Shadowfield combo for one decent assault unit in your army and model your Archon with a Power Axe. This setup will set you down about 200pts at the very least and doesn't solve the transport problem.

Assault no longer is a competitive option for Dark Eldar. Which is a shame, because half the codex is about assault.

Sorry, I'n not buying into the doom and gloom of DE assault like you have. There is a reason we can get three hamies for 1 HQ slot. You will just need to now think of them overwatch fodder. You send them in first, absorb the overwatch then assault with what ever unit they were originally deployed with.

Your also assuming that every army will now have 30 terminators in it. Yeah right. Funny how over half of the listed codex armies out there can't spam termi stats. Termies will still die to weight of attacks. So incubi no longer ignore their 2+, but they are still hitting on 3s, wounding on 3 (with FC), throw in a Klavix and he is doing even more damage because he can ignore their 2+. You still going to drop them well enough before they swing.

And if you really don't want to go into HTH, you might just have to change out one ravagers worth of dark lances to disintigrators.

Assault DE is far from dead, it just doesn't exactly work like it used to.

J Mac wrote:

Mandor wrote:

DarknessEternal wrote:

J Mac wrote:
D. Eldar got great IMO!

Indeed. No longer being irrevocably married to paper transports to kill stuff will be a god send.

Can you elaborate? Night Fight is all well and good, but only happens 50% of the time first turn. Excluding vehicles, out of 25 units in the codex, 13 are no longer viable to use (basically any assault unit). So Dark Eldar are limited to shooty units only now. Granted, the shooty part has been buffed in general. But how do you justify over half the DE codex being useless now, as Dark Eldar being buffed?

The Dark Eldar codex was generally perceived as one of the most balanced codices in the history of GW. After the release of MEQ/TEQhammer 40k, half of it is no longer viable. I don't see the balance in that.

Gladly! While you are right that the assault elements of D. Eldar were somewhat nerfed, their shooting element of their army got a lot better. To me, 5th ed was dominated by the shooting phase. Which is why you always saw the same armies winning tournaments (i.e. IG, Wolves, and even GK with their psyflemen). In 6th, the game has changed a bit but still largely dominated by the shooting phase. The difference is the integration of new units such as flyers and units that were never used in 5th are now in a renaissance. Infantry lists will be popping up all over the place if you ask me. While D.Eldar don't have many options to field an all infantry list, they have some decent options for firepower in general. Warriors can spam (forget the name) the S8 AP2 18" weapons, your ravagers can do the same, a void raven (with the new flyer rules) may not be such a bad option, especially with implosion missiles. All this shooting backed up by night vision, which is way under rated IMO. While night fight only happens 50% in the first turn, it is almost guaranteed in every game. If night fight doesn't come on turn 1, you roll again on turn 4 and every turn after until it becomes night fight.

Again, I will have to agree that D. Eldar got boned on their assault elements, but that doesn't mean they won't work. They still can provide decent number of attacks at a high initiative with poison! I want to take a moment to talk about initiative. Initiative as a whole got boned in 6th. I think GW realized how good high initiative actually was and try to balance it out. They did so by adding AP to weapons, and modifying the initiative to those lower AP weapons (for example: axes are unwieldy but at AP2.) D. Eldar has a distinct advantage over most armies by striking first! While those attacks may not ignore armor like they used to, don't under estimate forcing saves before anyone else gets to strike. On top of that, higher initiative gets to pile in first, meaning you get positioning over your opponent (most of the time), and if you recall, I believe positioning and maneuverability are the key to success in 6th. Not to mention FNP got a huge buff, something D. Eldar has an abundance of. Fearless got a huge buff (not taking fearless saves anymore), again something D. Eldar has an abundance of. Beasts are now freaking amazing, so your beast packs (while monetarily expensive) are maniacs on the field. Forgot to mention fleet that lets you reroll runs and charge!!!! With charge range getting a boost, (or nerd depending how you look at it) fleet is a luxury and be glad you have it!

First off fleet does not let you reroll run AND charge if so then fine fleet would be good. As it is you get to reroll ONE of those two and you cannot charge after running. Fleet got another major nerf...apparently everyone should move almost the same. The problem is that the army is not just shooty, it is at least half assault too. FNP kind of got a buff in that you get it vs attacks that don't allow armor, but I will miss the 4+ and 4+ FNP on wyches. The only viable way to assault now is to throw a haemy at them and hope you roll high enough on the wyches afterward to be able to make the charge too. That way you get FNP and don't get overwatched to death. Fearless is nice. Manuverability got better for everyone else but not for the army that was at the top of that later (DE) since they pretty much stayed still and everyone else is getting faster. Beasts aren't much better than they were before, but now you have to take a clawed fiend up front to give you some protection.

J Mac wrote:

Mandor wrote:

Jayden63 wrote:The loss of the bonus to iniative when furious charging is the one nerf in this new edition that actually hurts marines more than any other race.

DE - with it would strike at I6. There are very few things that are actually I6 that the DE would hate to run into that still striking at I5 will actually matter.

True, the initiative nerf of FnP hardly affects Dark Eldar assault. Then again, with Overwatch versus T3Sv5+, nerfed assault range, no assault from reserve and WWP, no AP2 assault weapons (except for a single one on a 57pts T3Sv3+ model), Dark Eldar have no reason to assault any more at all. Arguably, you could abuse the Fortune/Shadowfield combo for one decent assault unit in your army and model your Archon with a Power Axe. This setup will set you down about 200pts at the very least and doesn't solve the transport problem.

Assault no longer is a competitive option for Dark Eldar. Which is a shame, because half the codex is about assault.

Honestly, the FC affects Orks the most. Poor bastards striking at I2/3. Even Necrons can keep up with them now!

Overwatch can be bad, agreed. I think people are over thinking it anyway. Again positioning and maneuverability being key, keep this in mind. Charge with your base models (no upgrades) in the front ranks. That way if (and thats a big if) any overwatch shots get through, you don't lose important models. Overwatch only hits on a 6, not very good chances of wounding your D. Eldar. Don't wyches get invuls in the assault phase? Or does it read in assault? Big difference there on grounds for overwatch.

If you want to complain about transports, get in line. Everyones transports get nerfed! You can't assault out of them even if they HAVEN'T moved!!! You still have some of the best transports in the game. Yes, they are fragile (but what vehicle isn't anymore?). However they are fast, provide great firebase, and have some excellent defense (with night shields and flicker fields).

Here's my summary, I believe that D. Eldar was the first codex to come out with 6th ed in mind. As Phil Kelly is an excellent rule/fluff writer, he kept in mind the player in 5th ed but looked towards 6th ed with the rules in mind. D. Eldar was a very balanced army in 5th ed with extreme potential, but it took one hell of a general to maximize its potential. 6th ed will be no different, except in the way that every army will play that way. No army has an auto win button (that we see so far! I'm sure with allies that someone will find the combo that dominates). The game has evolved, the player must evolve with it. You have rights to believe that your army got nerfed. However, before that conclusion is finalized, reconsider that maybe your build of your army got nerfed. It sucks, but it happens.

Wyches only get their dodge in close combat not the assault phase. So no 4++ from overwatch. DE were in no way meant for 6th except for the fliers. No AP2 in CC except for an overcosted model. Please stop saying things about manuevablity. While everyone else can turbo giving them 18" DE only get 6" more which used to be 12" more and pulled you out of assault range. Where DE transports got hosed is the whole fact that regardless of how far I moved and how much turning I did my venom is as easy to hit as a Land Raider or Monolith that barely moved at all! Had Agonisers been AP 2 then we would have something to talk about. I don't think overwatch is a death scentance as 9 bolters and one flamer would be rough...18 shots, 3 hits 2 wounds, flamer 2 hits 1-2 wounds, thats 3-4 wounds saving another 1-2 with FNP, so while that could kill the haemy the wyches would be relatively safe. Then again why are you charging a full tac squad with wyches?

All in all dark eldar DID get nerfed quite a bit, but it is far from the dark days of 4th. Assault is in big trouble, but scourges got a major buff as did both the voidraven (still not sure on implosion missiles being so expensive) and the razorwing.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Switching out to dissies doesn't help, you then give up air power and lose out on a great deal of AT.

What i have foudn so far is that, although Scarabs are not as important as before, they can still be potent (they will hit a tank on 3's now).

The bonus of thsi is that you dont have to field big units of them any more. Throw in a squad of 6, if they eat a tank great!, if you opponent gets scared and diverts fire towards killing that 65 point unit, great! - less fire on the warriors moving into rapid fire tank eater range.

Scarabs are now less of a must take but just as scary to anyone fielding armour.

Akroma06 wrote:
First off fleet does not let you reroll run AND charge if so then fine fleet would be good. As it is you get to reroll ONE of those two and you cannot charge after running. Fleet got another major nerf...apparently everyone should move almost the same. The problem is that the army is not just shooty, it is at least half assault too. FNP kind of got a buff in that you get it vs attacks that don't allow armor, but I will miss the 4+ and 4+ FNP on wyches. The only viable way to assault now is to throw a haemy at them and hope you roll high enough on the wyches afterward to be able to make the charge too. That way you get FNP and don't get overwatched to death. Fearless is nice. Manuverability got better for everyone else but not for the army that was at the top of that later (DE) since they pretty much stayed still and everyone else is getting faster. Beasts aren't much better than they were before, but now you have to take a clawed fiend up front to give you some protection.

Right, I know that. That's why it is one or the other, I just assumed you knew that also and including them together. "AND" was used instead of or, because you can reroll run to get upfield, then reroll charge when close enough. The fact that you can charge 12" kind of mitigates the fact that you cannot charge after running. On top of that, fleet really helps.

Also, you completely ignored my points about the shooting aspect of D. Eldar. So your argument is only half viable against mine. D. Eldar got boned on assault, I already agreed to that. However, their initiative, high amount of attacks, their fleet, their open topped transports, their FNP, their Fearless are all great benefits of assault that I believe you are underestimating. You will have to change your list a bit, as 6th ed requires a balanced build. A lot of people are having to change their lists, so you are not alone here.

I will NOT stop talking about maneuverability which is key for positioning. The way wound allocation exists now, positioning is a crucial element of the game, and keeping the important units alive. How can you expect to do this without superior maneuverability? While others got buffs on their speed and maneuverability, D. Eldar had it first and have it all over the place. Every vehicle in your codex is either fast or a flyer! If you don't want to take vehicles, fine. You still have Hellions(yes I'm aware they sucked in 5th, but have you play tested them in 6th), Beastpacks, Scourges and not to mention venoms (and lots of them). You need to look past your old list and adapt to the new rules.

Akroma06 wrote:
Wyches only get their dodge in close combat not the assault phase. So no 4++ from overwatch. DE were in no way meant for 6th except for the fliers. No AP2 in CC except for an overcosted model. Please stop saying things about manuevablity. While everyone else can turbo giving them 18" DE only get 6" more which used to be 12" more and pulled you out of assault range. Where DE transports got hosed is the whole fact that regardless of how far I moved and how much turning I did my venom is as easy to hit as a Land Raider or Monolith that barely moved at all! Had Agonisers been AP 2 then we would have something to talk about. I don't think overwatch is a death scentance as 9 bolters and one flamer would be rough...18 shots, 3 hits 2 wounds, flamer 2 hits 1-2 wounds, thats 3-4 wounds saving another 1-2 with FNP, so while that could kill the haemy the wyches would be relatively safe. Then again why are you charging a full tac squad with wyches?

All in all dark eldar DID get nerfed quite a bit, but it is far from the dark days of 4th. Assault is in big trouble, but scourges got a major buff as did both the voidraven (still not sure on implosion missiles being so expensive) and the razorwing.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Switching out to dissies doesn't help, you then give up air power and lose out on a great deal of AT.

Yeah, that semantic about CC rather than assault phase makes a big difference. Oh well, they still got FNP.

Dark Eldar was the first codex written for 6th ed, whether you believe it or not. It is as much a competitive codex as any IMO with the new rules. Generalship (as always, but more than ever) will play a huge role in winning games.

Your venoms are harder to hit than a LR or monolith. It has the Jink special rule giving it a 5+ save moving normally and a 4+ save moving flat out.

Implosion missiles, while expensive, can remove models from play! Remember when draigo was annoying in 5th ed? Yeah, now he is 3x annoying as he can take all the wounds cause he is the closest model. One implosion missile can solve that, and since its a blast, it could possibly take a couple of pallys with him!

D. Eldar don't have much anti air, but thats what Foritfications are for

J Mac wrote:

Akroma06 wrote:
First off fleet does not let you reroll run AND charge if so then fine fleet would be good. As it is you get to reroll ONE of those two and you cannot charge after running. Fleet got another major nerf...apparently everyone should move almost the same. The problem is that the army is not just shooty, it is at least half assault too. FNP kind of got a buff in that you get it vs attacks that don't allow armor, but I will miss the 4+ and 4+ FNP on wyches. The only viable way to assault now is to throw a haemy at them and hope you roll high enough on the wyches afterward to be able to make the charge too. That way you get FNP and don't get overwatched to death. Fearless is nice. Manuverability got better for everyone else but not for the army that was at the top of that later (DE) since they pretty much stayed still and everyone else is getting faster. Beasts aren't much better than they were before, but now you have to take a clawed fiend up front to give you some protection.

Right, I know that. That's why it is one or the other, I just assumed you knew that also and including them together. "AND" was used instead of or, because you can reroll run to get upfield, then reroll charge when close enough. The fact that you can charge 12" kind of mitigates the fact that you cannot charge after running. On top of that, fleet really helps.

Also, you completely ignored my points about the shooting aspect of D. Eldar. So your argument is only half viable against mine. D. Eldar got boned on assault, I already agreed to that. However, their initiative, high amount of attacks, their fleet, their open topped transports, their FNP, their Fearless are all great benefits of assault that I believe you are underestimating. You will have to change your list a bit, as 6th ed requires a balanced build. A lot of people are having to change their lists, so you are not alone here.

I will NOT stop talking about maneuverability which is key for positioning. The way wound allocation exists now, positioning is a crucial element of the game, and keeping the important units alive. How can you expect to do this without superior maneuverability? While others got buffs on their speed and maneuverability, D. Eldar had it first and have it all over the place. Every vehicle in your codex is either fast or a flyer! If you don't want to take vehicles, fine. You still have Hellions(yes I'm aware they sucked in 5th, but have you play tested them in 6th), Beastpacks, Scourges and not to mention venoms (and lots of them). You need to look past your old list and adapt to the new rules.

My point is manuevability isn't as big since other armies can redploy almost as quickly. I know that DE shooting got better it is the only thing that makes them decent. It doesn't ignore the fact that over half of the dex got nerfed for being assault oriented. DE don't get a high number of attacks. It's one base for the normal guys and two for the elites the same as marines. Yeah out close combat guys get one for two one handed weapons, but so do BA assault marines. The biggest edge I can get in CC is fortuning my Archon's shadowfield as himself and some incubi are the only assault element I use and that is to hit things like devs that try to hide from my guns. Hellions were bad in 5th I agree and they don't seem much better in 6th being that they are an assault unit. I've only been able to get in a couple of games in so far and one was to test eldar as a potential ally and one to test wyches. The wyches got massacred but the eldar as a support did really well. I plan on trying hellions again. I never said beasts got worse just more expensive. Scourges are a nightmare for the enemy with haywire blasters...I strongly feel that they are the future for 6th as a replacement for blasterborn (and I am more than ok with that). Venom spam got old fast and it was to the point that I wouldn't field it outside of a tournament. I never meant to say that DE were unplayable but they did get substantially nerfed in that half of the book is almost unplayable. Feels kinda like the old book.

J Mac wrote:

Akroma06 wrote:
Wyches only get their dodge in close combat not the assault phase. So no 4++ from overwatch. DE were in no way meant for 6th except for the fliers. No AP2 in CC except for an overcosted model. Please stop saying things about manuevablity. While everyone else can turbo giving them 18" DE only get 6" more which used to be 12" more and pulled you out of assault range. Where DE transports got hosed is the whole fact that regardless of how far I moved and how much turning I did my venom is as easy to hit as a Land Raider or Monolith that barely moved at all! Had Agonisers been AP 2 then we would have something to talk about. I don't think overwatch is a death scentance as 9 bolters and one flamer would be rough...18 shots, 3 hits 2 wounds, flamer 2 hits 1-2 wounds, thats 3-4 wounds saving another 1-2 with FNP, so while that could kill the haemy the wyches would be relatively safe. Then again why are you charging a full tac squad with wyches?

All in all dark eldar DID get nerfed quite a bit, but it is far from the dark days of 4th. Assault is in big trouble, but scourges got a major buff as did both the voidraven (still not sure on implosion missiles being so expensive) and the razorwing.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Switching out to dissies doesn't help, you then give up air power and lose out on a great deal of AT.

Yeah, that semantic about CC rather than assault phase makes a big difference. Oh well, they still got FNP.

Dark Eldar was the first codex written for 6th ed, whether you believe it or not. It is as much a competitive codex as any IMO with the new rules. Generalship (as always, but more than ever) will play a huge role in winning games.

Your venoms are harder to hit than a LR or monolith. It has the Jink special rule giving it a 5+ save moving normally and a 4+ save moving flat out.

Implosion missiles, while expensive, can remove models from play! Remember when draigo was annoying in 5th ed? Yeah, now he is 3x annoying as he can take all the wounds cause he is the closest model. One implosion missile can solve that, and since its a blast, it could possibly take a couple of pallys with him!

D. Eldar don't have much anti air, but thats what Foritfications are for

I thought that IG was the first for 6th? It doesn't matter that much. I really feel like if wyches get errated to get FNP in both the charge and fight sub-fazes then they will be viable again.

Unfortunately a monolith can also jink (don't ask how) so that isn't that much better. My point was it is just as easy to hit it (a small very fast skimmer) as a monolith or LR (big slow and bulky) in CC not shooting. WS 1 for a moving vehicle as the line is just a bad move on GWs part and probably my biggest gripe...right next to the blast inside is always S4 and the whole no dodge on overwatch, or assaulting from reserve (Deep strike ok, but walking on no).

Implosion missiles are insanely expensive and a full rack doubles the cost of the vehicle and they are only the small blast. I don't see draigo lists becoming as annoying with the new woulnd allocation. You allocate wounds the same as shooting not hits so the woulnd test would be off the majority (1 for termis 2 for pallys) then the fails start with Draigo up front. Or I could just make him take the void lance wounds first. Although allowing invuls is a nussance. Venoms firing on termis was never a solid plan as it takes 2 venoms both with 2 SC to kill on terminator.

As for fortifications...I have issues taking a fortification as a part of my Dark Eldar raiding army. That just makes no sense.

Tau actually got a couple wonderful boosts:

---PE allowing rerolls of 1 to hit means an Ethereal to prance out and get killed is potentially a decent tradeoff, and giving him the BS4 Honor guard makes an even more appealing target that you can stick him in the front of to get blown away faster.

---Rapid fire got amazingly better, both for the move and fire once as well as the half-range instead of 12" for double-taps

---Stealthsuits. Holy crap stealthsuits. They get +3 to any save, and are now nigh untouchable if they're in cover. Finally, my dream of 6 of them and 12 gun drones in a blob becomes something to be feared and not ridiculed. they finally became (imo) a very, very viable alternative to crisis suits and a worthy user of the elite slot.

---Moving and shooting heavy at BS1 gave a lot of maneuverability to broadsides, which was nice because the points sink of advanced stabilizers really added up once you went beyond a small handful of suits.

---Drones taking the type of their unit they're attached to means that they can intercept for challenges. Very nice in case your crisis suits accidentally get charged by a lucky roll

DE assault isn't entirely dead as beastmasters remain viable. Wound Shenanigans are slightly nerfed, but you can still put the optimal wound taking models out in front. The main danger is concentrated fire from both high volume and high strength shooting in the same turn. They can still spam high initiative ap 2 rending attacks, don't worry about overwatch and have much better non-charge movement.

JohnnoM wrote:Because my current army, (World Eaters Khorne army lead by Kharn) has been bashed to death with the nerf bat, I'm looking for a new army to start.
However, this isnt just a thread for me to find a new army, its also a thread to discuss which armies have been nerfed and which have been buffed, and why.



(Yes, I know theres a thread for just about every army, but its not very easy to go looking through all of them for answers)

I hear you friend. I also played World Eaters prior to this and now that army imho is virtually unplayable so I'm making the switch to Nurgle. New Codex or not I've always wanted a Death Guard army along with World Eaters, but until I can play them again t I'll stick with my Necrons and soon to be Death Guard.

Tyno2025 wrote:

JohnnoM wrote:Because my current army, (World Eaters Khorne army lead by Kharn) has been bashed to death with the nerf bat, I'm looking for a new army to start.
However, this isnt just a thread for me to find a new army, its also a thread to discuss which armies have been nerfed and which have been buffed, and why.



(Yes, I know theres a thread for just about every army, but its not very easy to go looking through all of them for answers)

I hear you friend. I also played World Eaters prior to this and now that army imho is virtually unplayable so I'm making the switch to Nurgle. New Codex or not I've always wanted a Death Guard army along with World Eaters, but until I can play them again t I'll stick with my Necrons and soon to be Death Guard.

CSM is next on new codex IIRC so you wont wait for long.

scimitar wrote:DE assault isn't entirely dead as beastmasters remain viable. Wound Shenanigans are slightly nerfed, but you can still put the optimal wound taking models out in front. The main danger is concentrated fire from both high volume and high strength shooting in the same turn. They can still spam high initiative ap 2 rending attacks, don't worry about overwatch and have much better non-charge movement.

The optimal wound taking models for beastmasters are khymerae for the STR6+ wounds and razorwing flock for small arms. You can't do that anymore in 6th. In fact, your opponent gets to choose which wounds to handle first. So if you put your flock up front, he'll remove them with high strength fire. If you put the khymerae up front, he'll blast them with small arms. Mind you, they are not bad at all, not in the way Wyches, Hellions, Incubi, Mandrakes, Archons, the Court, Succubi and almost all Dark Eldar ICs are.

Thanks for you comments J Mac, I tend to exaggerate with the doom and gloom. However, I truly think Dark Eldar assault is finished. This doesn't mean the army is dead, because you are right that on the shooty front they got buffed. Maneuverability is up in the air though (quite literally). This used to be the Dark Eldar mantra. We would be able to strike anywhere on the table and be gone the next. Now every army can do that to some extent. In fact, Necrons are now the fastest army on the board, easily outmaneuvering any other army out there. And considering where they came from when their first codex was launched, this is quite frustrating for me as a Dark Eldar player. The changes of the Necron army through the last few years would be mirrored by giving the Dark Eldar 3+ saves and We'll Be Back right now.

All in all, I'm surprised that a gaming company can allow a new set of rules, which are supposed to improve the game in general, to outright destroy certain armies in one way or another. Yet this is what GW, or specifically Matt Ward, has done.

Not mentioned yet and I am suprised! Dark Angels, specifically Deathwing, IMO got much better!
PROS - FNP for command squad is better, stuff that normally killed terminators usually denied FNP, not the case any longer
- Deepstrike is more forgiving
- reserves come in sooner
- terminator armor is better vs power weapons (obviously)
- cyclone missile launchers are better (more reliable at taking off HPs)
- RCD lets you have a scarier threat bubble with all TH/SS guys

CONS - Still an old codex?
- no real damage done to terminator eq models in this edition
- ? can't go to ground because they are fearless?

I am not finding too many weaknesses in the edition change.
Maybe not a teir 1 army or anything, but definiately got much better. I plan on rolling out the ol' Terminators this weekend I believe and testing out some theroies here. Stay tuned!

Mandor wrote:

scimitar wrote:DE assault isn't entirely dead as beastmasters remain viable. Wound Shenanigans are slightly nerfed, but you can still put the optimal wound taking models out in front. The main danger is concentrated fire from both high volume and high strength shooting in the same turn. They can still spam high initiative ap 2 rending attacks, don't worry about overwatch and have much better non-charge movement.

The optimal wound taking models for beastmasters are khymerae for the STR6+ wounds and razorwing flock for small arms. You can't do that anymore in 6th. In fact, your opponent gets to choose which wounds to handle first. So if you put your flock up front, he'll remove them with high strength fire. If you put the khymerae up front, he'll blast them with small arms. Mind you, they are not bad at all, not in the way Wyches, Hellions, Incubi, Mandrakes, Archons, the Court, Succubi and almost all Dark Eldar ICs are.

Well, if you take Eldar as allies, then you could throw a Serpent in front of the Beastmaster unit giving them cover.

Dracos wrote:

Leth wrote:You are still assaulting at the same time as you could before. You just have to spend a turn in the open now

5th:
turn 1: Move 12
Turn2: Move 12
Turn three disembark 8 assault 6
Total: 38

6th
Turn 1: Move 12, flat out 6
Turn 2: Move 6, Disembark 6
Turn 3: Move 6, assault 7ish
Total: 43ish

So you are actually moving just as fast. Now some vehicles will die(same as fifth) but you are still getting to assault at the same turn but the actual distance you cover is greater.

Except in 5th you had the option to assault turn 2 if there were available targets. You glossed that fact over pretty nicely.

Okay so turn 1
Move 12
Turn two
Disembark 9
Assault 6

Total 27

Turn 1
Move 6 disembark 6

Turn 2
Move 6 assault 7

25 O NO

Leth wrote:

Dracos wrote:

Leth wrote:You are still assaulting at the same time as you could before. You just have to spend a turn in the open now

5th:
turn 1: Move 12
Turn2: Move 12
Turn three disembark 8 assault 6
Total: 38

6th
Turn 1: Move 12, flat out 6
Turn 2: Move 6, Disembark 6
Turn 3: Move 6, assault 7ish
Total: 43ish

So you are actually moving just as fast. Now some vehicles will die(same as fifth) but you are still getting to assault at the same turn but the actual distance you cover is greater.

Except in 5th you had the option to assault turn 2 if there were available targets. You glossed that fact over pretty nicely.

Okay so turn 1
Move 12
Turn two
Disembark 9
Assault 6

Total 27

Turn 1
Move 6 disembark 6

Turn 2
Move 6 assault 7

25 O NO

After disembarking, the unit might get decimated via shooting. The casualties must be taken from the front and so the overall range, 25 inches, might actually be smaller. Moreover, the enemy will see it coming and withdraw his units within assault range.

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

farrowking37 wrote:In my opinion some of the more ranged armies have been buffed, like the SM and Tau. Melee centric armies have been Nerfed a bit by the new power weapon rules, namely the Orks and Necrons, and even the gray knights to some extent.

Necrons are a melee-centric army?

Also, how did Power Weapon changes nerf Orks? They all have Power Klaws anyway.

As for the Necrons, that's what happens when i don't bother checking what the post says. sorry bout that. Meant Tyranids.
The way the new power weapons work however, makes the power claw less powerful, it will probably be a maul, so it will only penetrate ap4 armor, leaving tougher units rolling their 3+ or 2+ armor saves.

farrowking37 wrote:

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

farrowking37 wrote:In my opinion some of the more ranged armies have been buffed, like the SM and Tau. Melee centric armies have been Nerfed a bit by the new power weapon rules, namely the Orks and Necrons, and even the gray knights to some extent.

Necrons are a melee-centric army?

Also, how did Power Weapon changes nerf Orks? They all have Power Klaws anyway.

As for the Necrons, that's what happens when i don't bother checking what the post says. sorry bout that. Meant Tyranids.
The way the new power weapons work however, makes the power claw less powerful, it will probably be a maul, so it will only penetrate ap4 armor, leaving tougher units rolling their 3+ or 2+ armor saves.

The Power Klaw listed in the rulebook (both 5th and 6th) as the equivalent of a Power Fist? That Klaw?

Brymm wrote:Not mentioned yet and I am suprised! Dark Angels, specifically Deathwing, IMO got much better!
PROS - FNP for command squad is better, stuff that normally killed terminators usually denied FNP, not the case any longer
- Deepstrike is more forgiving
- reserves come in sooner
- terminator armor is better vs power weapons (obviously)
- cyclone missile launchers are better (more reliable at taking off HPs)
- RCD lets you have a scarier threat bubble with all TH/SS guys

CONS - Still an old codex?
- no real damage done to terminator eq models in this edition
- ? can't go to ground because they are fearless?

I am not finding too many weaknesses in the edition change.
Maybe not a teir 1 army or anything, but definiately got much better. I plan on rolling out the ol' Terminators this weekend I believe and testing out some theroies here. Stay tuned!

You missed the fearless buff, where a team of 5 terminators no longer has to take saves in close combat and die on the way down. I have almost lost more terminators and veterans to fearless saves than to gunfire...

farrowking37 wrote:

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

farrowking37 wrote:In my opinion some of the more ranged armies have been buffed, like the SM and Tau. Melee centric armies have been Nerfed a bit by the new power weapon rules, namely the Orks and Necrons, and even the gray knights to some extent.

Necrons are a melee-centric army?

Also, how did Power Weapon changes nerf Orks? They all have Power Klaws anyway.

As for the Necrons, that's what happens when i don't bother checking what the post says. sorry bout that. Meant Tyranids.
The way the new power weapons work however, makes the power claw less powerful, it will probably be a maul, so it will only penetrate ap4 armor, leaving tougher units rolling their 3+ or 2+ armor saves.

powerklaw has a specific entry and even if it didn't it is per the ork codex defined as a power fist. so 2x str initiative 1 and ap2

G00fySmiley wrote:

farrowking37 wrote:

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

farrowking37 wrote:In my opinion some of the more ranged armies have been buffed, like the SM and Tau. Melee centric armies have been Nerfed a bit by the new power weapon rules, namely the Orks and Necrons, and even the gray knights to some extent.

Necrons are a melee-centric army?

Also, how did Power Weapon changes nerf Orks? They all have Power Klaws anyway.

As for the Necrons, that's what happens when i don't bother checking what the post says. sorry bout that. Meant Tyranids.
The way the new power weapons work however, makes the power claw less powerful, it will probably be a maul, so it will only penetrate ap4 armor, leaving tougher units rolling their 3+ or 2+ armor saves.

powerklaw has a specific entry and even if it didn't it is per the ork codex defined as a power fist. so 2x str initiative 1 and ap2

Ah, thanks for letting me know, I figured that they would count as a generic weapon, not owning a codex or any common sense at all.

The more I think about it/play I think c:sm got buffed pretty hard. Assault terminators when from good to one of the best cc units in the game. Tactical terminators went from awkward to a really good counterpunch line holding unit. Sterngaurd are much better with moving and being able to shoot 24"/ overwatch.

Pony_law wrote:The more I think about it/play I think c:sm got buffed pretty hard. Assault terminators when from good to one of the best cc units in the game. Tactical terminators went from awkward to a really good counterpunch line holding unit. Sterngaurd are much better with moving and being able to shoot 24"/ overwatch.

+1 to this. In the games I have played, I'm seeing a surprising increase of the effectiveness of C:SM.

Not mentioned yet and I am suprised! Dark Angels, specifically Deathwing, IMO got much better!
PROS - FNP for command squad is better, stuff that normally killed terminators usually denied FNP, not the case any longer
- Deepstrike is more forgiving
- reserves come in sooner
- terminator armor is better vs power weapons (obviously)
- cyclone missile launchers are better (more reliable at taking off HPs)
- RCD lets you have a scarier threat bubble with all TH/SS guys

CONS - Still an old codex?
- no real damage done to terminator eq models in this edition
- ? can't go to ground because they are fearless?

I am not finding too many weaknesses in the edition change. Maybe not a teir 1 army or anything, but definiately got much better. I plan on rolling out the ol' Terminators this weekend I believe and testing out some theroies here. Stay tuned!

Just to drive the point home. Deathwing are rocking in this edition. I would dare say they have jumped up to being top tier. I tabled my friends space wolf list, anhillated my friends grey knight list. That game was just pathetic. We were carbon copy lists, as he was running all termis as well but the lack of ap2 weaponry hosed him hard in a TDA match-up. The only game I have played so far with any challenge was against a salamander list with thunder hammer storm shield termis. But they weren't scoring troop choices so again victory for the unforgiven.