Ok, if I'm reading this correctly, each model makes a 3" pile in move starting on its initiative step. The person whose turn it is moves first in cases where models have the same initiative.

Ok, so I take a assault marine sgt with a powerfist. It is unwieldy. The rule for unwieldy says it strikes at init step 1. But the sgts actual init is 4. Based on how I have read it, sounds like the sgt makes his pile-in move on init step 4 but doesn't actually get to swing til init step 1.

Is this correct?

He makes his pile in move at Initiative Step 1, since his initiative for the combat is 1.

Crazyterran wrote:He makes his pile in move at Initiative Step 1, since his initiative for the combat is 1.

But it only states he swings at init 1. It never says you pile in at the init you attack at, it says you pile in at your init.

Crazyterran wrote:He makes his pile in move at Initiative Step 1, since his initiative for the combat is 1.

Does he? Read Unwieldy. It says a model attacking with this weapon does so at init step 1 unless it is a monstrous creature or walker.

Key word being attacking. Init step pile-in moves are not attacking.

I think intention was for models to Pile In in same step they make their attacks.
Unfortunately that is not what the rules technically say, but it can be inferred from the "Models make their attacks when their Initiative Step is reached" and the "Unwieldy weapons strike at Initiative Step 1".

But this interpretation also raises other question:
At what Initiative Step does GK techmarine with power sword and Servo Harness (2x extra CC attack at I1) make Pile in. I4, I1 or both?

We need to keep in mind that pile-ins are totally different than they were in 5th. Now, each model piles in on their init step. The unwieldy rule says they attack at init step 1. Makes no mention of moving on init step 1. I think if the intent were they could only do anything in a close combat at init step 1 they would have worded it likewise in the special rule. Something like "A model with an unwieldy weapon may only make pile-in moves and attacks with this weapon at initiative step 1."

Since pile-in is different than attacking, if you go by RAW then you move on your model's init step for pile-in and swing based on restrictions of the weapon (if any)

Techmarine would pile in at I4, and get 2 extra attacks in the I1 phase, assuming he isn't dead.

Initiative and Initiative Step are not synonymous in the rules.

Pile In references a models Initiative.

Attacking is at an Initiative Step.

A I4 model with a PF is still I4, so Piles In at I4

But they attack at I1.

You do not get a second pile in at your attacks, as that is NOT your model's initiative.

Kiredor wrote:Initiative and Initiative Step are not synonymous in the rules.

Pile In references a models Initiative.

Attacking is at an Initiative Step.

A I4 model with a PF is still I4, so Piles In at I4

But they attack at I1.

You do not get a second pile in at your attacks, as that is NOT your model's initiative.

Exactly. You wouldn't pile-in again at init step 1 after you'd already piled in on init step 4 swinging with a power fist. If you were still considered engaged in the combat at your init step you'd get your swings, but that's it. No move until end of combat pile-in.

Kiredor wrote:Initiative and Initiative Step are not synonymous in the rules.

Pile In references a models Initiative.

Attacking is at an Initiative Step.

So Grey Knights with Halberds attack at I6, but do not pile in until I4?

It seems like an FAQ is in order.

Agree with DR. Piling in at the base init instead of the attack init works fine when the model's attack init is lower than its normal init. Doesn't work the other way.

Working or not, it's what the rules say.
Since it doesn't work, it'd be best to just attack and pile in at the same time until they FAQ it.

kmdl1066 wrote:Agree with DR. Piling in at the base init instead of the attack init works fine when the model's attack init is lower than its normal init. Doesn't work the other way.

Aye! FAQ it GW!

DeathReaper wrote:

Kiredor wrote:Initiative and Initiative Step are not synonymous in the rules.

Pile In references a models Initiative.

Attacking is at an Initiative Step.

So Grey Knights with Halberds attack at I6, but do not pile in until I4?

It seems like an FAQ is in order.

AWSOME arguement sir!

Gregor, DR is right, RAW, Halberds hit before they Pile In.

Have you guys played with it that way? I just want to know if it really is a problem or not?

Kiredor wrote:Gregor, DR is right, RAW, Halberds hit before they Pile In.

Have you guys played with it that way? I just want to know if it really is a problem or not?

Of course it would be an issue.

Hmmm... I can see how it could work both ways, but IMO, pile-in will happen at the initiative step in which the model can strike.

Method 1
Q) If I'm a Howling Banshee that strikes at I10, why would I then Pile-In at I5? To give enemy a hug?

A) If the enemy is hard enough to withstand my I10 blows and the front ranks fall then the rear guard will get the opportunity to strike back.

Method 2
Q) If I'm a power fist wielding sergeant why would I pile in at I4 and stand there getting thumped until it's my turn to strike back?

A) I don't, I understand I'm bogged down by my 'unwieldy' weapon and will wait my turn to crush the enemy.

oni wrote:Q) If I'm a Howling Banshee that strikes at I10, why would I then Pile-In at I5? To give enemy a hug?

Banshees have I10 (not strike at, ARE ) in the first round of combat.

Q) If I'm a power fist wielding sergeant why would I pile in at I4 and stand there getting thumped until it's my turn to strike back?

It takes time to wind up the punch?

Well the rules for maximising base to base in the assault still stand, so there should be models in base, and the 2 inch rule for attacks is still there, so thats not a problem.

The likelyhood of models with halberds not being able to attack due to not having moved a whole 3' is very low, as I see it, and was looking to see if that stacked up in reality.

Alright. I offer something to thicken things a fair bit. Lash-Whips/Whip-Coils. The Whip Coils say "Whilst any enemy model is in base contact with a model with whip coils, they count their initiative value as 1, regardless of their actual initiative value."

So, Does the sequence go, Pile In at regular Initiative, now their initiative immediately drops to 1. Stand there for a while, then swing at initiative 1? What happens if that wraith gets killed in the mean time, after the normal Initiative, but before 1? They now count their initiative as it's normal value, which is over and gone, so, they never get to swing?

Please read the Who Can Fight section.

It states that "Some weapons can change a models initiative step". It also has a lot of rules that *only* work if a models initiative step is the step they fight on.

The rules say you pile in on your initiative step
The rules say you fight on your initiative step
The rules say you check for engagement on your initiative step.

It is all the same initiative step.

But unwieldy does not change a model's initiative. It simply changes when it strikes.

Traceoftoxin wrote:But unwieldy does not change a model's initiative. It simply changes when it strikes.

A strict reading of RAW that is correct.

But like the Silly RAW of:
"Non-vehicle models without eyes cannot shoot." or "Master of the Forge cannot bolster defenses as the rule refers to a Techmarine."

Or how the old Rage ules from 5th ed broke the game because you could not check LoS outside of the Shooting phase.

It is silly RAW and should probably be altered, as it kind of makes the game unplayable.

Coredump, you'd be correct if the rules said something like
At the initiative step that a model makes its attacks, it piles in, or something like that.

It doesnt. It says that 'at the start of each initiative step, a model who's initiative is equal to the value of the current initiative step..."
A I4 model with an unwieldy weapon has an initiative value of I4, so at I4 it piles in. An I4 model with a Nemesis Force Halberd still has an I value of I4, so piles in at I4.

Technically yes Kiredor, but as I said before:

It is silly RAW and should probably be altered, as it kind of makes the game unplayable.

Like the "Non-vehicle models without eyes cannot shoot." is technically correct, but that way lies madness.

DeathReaper wrote:

Kiredor wrote:Initiative and Initiative Step are not synonymous in the rules.

Pile In references a models Initiative.

Attacking is at an Initiative Step.

So Grey Knights with Halberds attack at I6, but do not pile in until I4?

It seems like an FAQ is in order.

No. Halberds add +2 to their init. Not that they strike at +2 to their init.

They will pile in and strike.at whatever you calculate their init is.

imweasel wrote:No. Halberds add +2 to their init. Not that they strike at +2 to their init.

They will pile in and strike.at whatever you calculate their init is.

Yea, the Halberd entry disagrees with you. P.54 GK Codex.

I dont have my gk codex with me. I will have to check that page tomorrow.

I remember it being just +2i.

GK codex says models with a halberd strike at +2I

oni wrote:Hmmm... I can see how it could work both ways, but IMO, pile-in will happen at the initiative step in which the model can strike.

Method 1
Q) If I'm a Howling Banshee that strikes at I10, why would I then Pile-In at I5? To give enemy a hug?

No, you pile-in at I5 because the RAW say you pile in at I5.

robzidious wrote:

oni wrote:Hmmm... I can see how it could work both ways, but IMO, pile-in will happen at the initiative step in which the model can strike.

Method 1
Q) If I'm a Howling Banshee that strikes at I10, why would I then Pile-In at I5? To give enemy a hug?

No, you pile-in at I5 because the RAW say you pile in at I5.

Again in the first round of combat, Howling Banshees have Init 10, not strike ate Init 10.

DeathReaper wrote:

Traceoftoxin wrote:But unwieldy does not change a model's initiative. It simply changes when it strikes.

A strict reading of RAW that is correct.

But like the Silly RAW of:
"Non-vehicle models without eyes cannot shoot." or "Master of the Forge cannot bolster defenses as the rule refers to a Techmarine."

Or how the old Rage ules from 5th ed broke the game because you could not check LoS outside of the Shooting phase.

It is silly RAW and should probably be altered, as it kind of makes the game unplayable.

I don't think it's nearly as ridiculous as those examples, but I do agree it needs to be faqed. There have been less ambiguous rules with stranger rulings in the past.

It may need to be FAQ'd, but it is not as big a problem as people seem to think it is.

Apart from very few units, its not going to negatively affect them.

Mainly it needs to be FAQ'd to finalise whether it is Init Step of Attacks or Init Step of model where pile in occurs.

Anyone disagree with that final statement?

Kiredor wrote:It may need to be FAQ'd, but it is not as big a problem as people seem to think it is.

Apart from very few units, its not going to negatively affect them.

Mainly it needs to be FAQ'd to finalise whether it is Init Step of Attacks or Init Step of model where pile in occurs.

Anyone disagree with that final statement?

No disagreement, but probably better to FAQ it stating whether those are different at all, or rather to make us use the init step of the weapon always.

They are definitely different things. A model with a PF does not take Initiative Tests at I1. But does the difference matter for Pile In? Thats the difference

Kiredor wrote:They are definitely different things. A model with a PF does not take Initiative Tests at I1. But does the difference matter for Pile In? Thats the difference

Well his initiative step is of course different from his initiative stat, I thought you meant his Attacks/Weapon's initiative step and his Pile In's initiative step.

Kiredor wrote:But does the difference matter for Pile In?

It's not really an issue for models striking at lower than there initiative. They still get to make their pile in move before they swing. Even is the pile in is in different initiative step.

But imagine howling banshees / halbard knights charging. The roll is bad and they only get a couple models into contact /engaged. A 3" pile in will bring several more models into base/engaged. But oops, gotta swing before piling in.

I don't know how often this will actually occur, but it will be pretty sucktastic when it does.

Why are people constantly getting caught up on Howling Banshees? They do not strike at Initiative 10 and have Initiative 5. They ARE Initiative 10 (for the first round anyway). That means in the first round of combat they will pile in at Initiative 10 and (unless they are modeled with a power axe), strike at Initative 10. Afterwards they revert to Initiative 5 until they get into a new combat.

I would go with modifiers from weapons/abilities making your I the same for piling in and attacking, simply because it streamlines what is already a much fiddlier close combat phase than 5th.

robzidious wrote:

oni wrote:Hmmm... I can see how it could work both ways, but IMO, pile-in will happen at the initiative step in which the model can strike.

Method 1
Q) If I'm a Howling Banshee that strikes at I10, why would I then Pile-In at I5? To give enemy a hug?

No, you pile-in at I5 because the RAW say you pile in at I5.

If its the first assault phase, arent they init 10? The masks give them init 10, not that they strike at init 10.

Also, considering P. 23 tells us that "models make attacks when their initiative step is reached", you Pile in when you are allowed to make attacks.

So Initiative step is synonymous with the initiative that you are allowed to attack on (6 for GK Halberds, 1 for Power Fists Etc.).

DeathReaper wrote:Also, considering P. 23 tells us that "models make attacks when their initiative step is reached", you Pile in when you are allowed to make attacks.

So Initiative step is synonymous with the initiative that you are allowed to attack on (6 for GK Halberds, 1 for Power Fists Etc.).

Yes, this was going to be my next point as well. Thank you.

imweasel wrote:

robzidious wrote:

oni wrote:Hmmm... I can see how it could work both ways, but IMO, pile-in will happen at the initiative step in which the model can strike.

Method 1
Q) If I'm a Howling Banshee that strikes at I10, why would I then Pile-In at I5? To give enemy a hug?

No, you pile-in at I5 because the RAW say you pile in at I5.

If its the first assault phase, arent they init 10? The masks give them init 10, not that they strike at init 10.

Yes, that is correct.

p.23 is correct. You make attacks when your init step is reached (whole point of init) however making an attack and a pile-in move are two separate actions.

We are talking about start of init step pile-in also on the same page (pg 23). Says quite plainly that any model whose init is equal to the value of the current init step that isn't already in base contact must pile in. Unwieldy says attacks made with the weapon are made at init 1. It does not say the model equipped with this weapon is init 1. Pile ins and striking are two separate steps which are resolved. Now, it could be that GW intended for models with unwieldy weapons to pile in on init 1 but based on the wording of the rules, that is not the case.

Except that the right column on P.23 equates the two terms, so the models initiative step is when he is allowed to make attacks.

P.23 right column bold says "Models make their attacks when their initiative step is reached" It also states "Note that certain situations, abilities and
weapons can modify a model's Initiative."

DeathReaper wrote:Except that the right column on P.23 equates the two terms, so the models initiative step is when he is allowed to make attacks.

P.23 right column bold says "Models make their attacks when their initiative step is reached" It also states "Note that certain situations, abilities and
weapons can modify a model's Initiative."

Except banshees with power axes now are unresolvable, using this criteria.

imweasel wrote:

DeathReaper wrote:Except that the right column on P.23 equates the two terms, so the models initiative step is when he is allowed to make attacks.

P.23 right column bold says "Models make their attacks when their initiative step is reached" It also states "Note that certain situations, abilities and
weapons can modify a model's Initiative."

Except banshees with power axes now are unresolvable, using this criteria.

How so? they seem to interact just fine.

DeathReaper wrote:

imweasel wrote:

DeathReaper wrote:Except that the right column on P.23 equates the two terms, so the models initiative step is when he is allowed to make attacks.

P.23 right column bold says "Models make their attacks when their initiative step is reached" It also states "Note that certain situations, abilities and
weapons can modify a model's Initiative."

Except banshees with power axes now are unresolvable, using this criteria.

How so? they seem to interact just fine.

What init does a banshee pile in and strike at if they have a power axe?

Whatever initiative they strike at, they will pile in at. (Presumably Initiative 1 for an axe).

DeathReaper wrote:Whatever initiative they strike at, they will pile in at. (Presumably Initiative 1 for an axe).

And why not init10 during the first assault do to their masks?

And does logan get to swing all of his attacks at init 5? Even if he only chooses one of his attacks to swing at init5 and the rest at init1?

What init step does logan pile in at? 5? 1? Both?

A model attacking with an unwieldy weapon strikes at I1.

So the mask is meaningless for models with axes.

Logan piles in at whatever Initiative step he attacks at, even if it is 5 and 1, if he attacks at both he piles in at both.

DeathReaper wrote:A model attacking with an unwieldy weapon strikes at I1.

So the mask is meaningless for models with axes.

Logan piles in at whatever Initiative step he attacks at, even if it is 5 and 1, if he attacks at both he piles in at both.

And a banshee mask makes a banshee strike at init 10. Ad nauseum.

I bet folks would scream murder if you tried to do that with logan. Or a techmarine.

It was one of my original arguments.

I'm ok with it though.

Kiredor wrote:So Grey Knights with Halberds attack at I6, but do not pile in until I4?

Since the Halberds have a long reach, this makes sense to me. They get to smack some people early, then advance in to hit a few more.

imweasel wrote:

DeathReaper wrote:A model attacking with an unwieldy weapon strikes at I1.

So the mask is meaningless for models with axes.

Logan piles in at whatever Initiative step he attacks at, even if it is 5 and 1, if he attacks at both he piles in at both.

And a banshee mask makes a banshee strike at init 10. Ad nauseum.

Right so one rule says I10, the other says I1

Edit: Banshee masks set the models Initiative to 10. Unwieldy strikes at I1 regardless of the models Initiative.

So I1 is when they pile in and strike.

robzidious wrote:Ok, if I'm reading this correctly, each model makes a 3" pile in move starting on its initiative step. The person whose turn it is moves first in cases where models have the same initiative.

Ok, so I take a assault marine sgt with a powerfist. It is unwieldy. The rule for unwieldy says it strikes at init step 1. But the sgts actual init is 4. Based on how I have read it, sounds like the sgt makes his pile-in move on init step 4 but doesn't actually get to swing til init step 1.

Is this correct?

Correct,

Page 23
1. Pile in..." any model whose INITIATIVE is equal to the value of the current Iniaiative step"
2.Attaks , "Models make their attacks when their Initiative step is reached ... NOTE THAT CERTAIN SITUATIONS, ABILITIES AND WEAPONS CAN MODIFY A MODELS INITIATIVE"

Unwieldy: "Modles ATTACKING with this weapon does so at Intiative step 1 ..." - this rule does not modify your initiative (for pile in), simply makes you to ATTACK AT INITIATIVE STEP 1.

Conclusions: pile in and attacking are two seperate rules! therefore For SM with PF : Pile in at Initiative step 4, ATTACKING at Initiative step 1.

Re-read P.23 it equates the two making the pile in move the same as when you strike.

DeathReaper wrote:

Actually they do strike at I10 since codex trumps BRB. So they will pile in and strike at I10 when banshee strike, I1 in subsequent rounds.

Codex does not automatically trump the BGB. Specific trumps general. ALL banshees have a mask, making that rule the general one, not all Banshees have an unwieldy weapon, making that rule more specific than the mask. Banshees with unwieldy weapons strike at initiative one.

god.ra wrote:

robzidious wrote:Ok, if I'm reading this correctly, each model makes a 3" pile in move starting on its initiative step. The person whose turn it is moves first in cases where models have the same initiative.

Ok, so I take a assault marine sgt with a powerfist. It is unwieldy. The rule for unwieldy says it strikes at init step 1. But the sgts actual init is 4. Based on how I have read it, sounds like the sgt makes his pile-in move on init step 4 but doesn't actually get to swing til init step 1.

Is this correct?

Correct,

Page 23
1. Pile in..." any model whose INITIATIVE is equal to the value of the current Iniaiative step"
2.Attaks , "Models make their attacks when their Initiative step is reached ... NOTE THAT CERTAIN SITUATIONS, ABILITIES AND WEAPONS CAN MODIFY A MODELS INITIATIVE"

Unwieldy: "Modles ATTACKING with this weapon does so at Intiative step 1 ..." - this rule does not modify your initiative (for pile in), simply makes you to ATTACK AT INITIATIVE STEP 1.

Conclusions: pile in and attacking are two seperate rules! therefore For SM with PF : Pile in at Initiative step 4, ATTACKING at Initiative step 1.

CLARIFICATION: PAGE 429 ASSAULT PHASE SUMMARY

Lordhat wrote:

DeathReaper wrote:

Actually they do strike at I10 since codex trumps BRB. So they will pile in and strike at I10 when banshee strike, I1 in subsequent rounds.

Codex does not automatically trump the BGB. Specific trumps general. ALL banshees have a mask, making that rule the general one, not all Banshees have an unwieldy weapon, making that rule more specific than the mask. Banshees with unwieldy weapons strike at initiative one.

Bad Logic. The BRB rule is the general rule as it covers all situations not modified elsewhere. The codex is the specific rule as it only effects things in that codex. So codex wargear rules override BRB wargear rules It does not matter if it is one Banshee with a mask in 10 with axes or one axe with 10 masks, that does not change which is the general or the specific.

Initiative equal to that initiative step /= the initiative they attack at.

The wording is different.

Unfortunately the combat that they use as a demonstration of Initiative Step does not include piling in. So we don't have that as evidence. But it does say that Sargeant Adrax and 4 Space Marines are initiative 4, but that Adrax attacks at I1 due to his powerfist.

My problem is that the Pile In rules do not reference the initiative that they make attacks, only the initiative of the model.

A space marine, even if they have a power fist, is I4.

When you reach Initiative Step 4, all models with an Initiative equal to 4 make a pile in.

Therefore, at Initiative Step 4, Marines pile in.

Remember, the rules for Pile In do not reference a MODELS INITIATIVE STEP, only that at each step you pile in models who have an Initiative EQUAL to that step.

Its incredibly long winded and overwritten to mean that a model piles in at the step that they make their attacks.

As to the Howling Banshees

They are I10 because of the mask, but they make their attacks at I1 due to unwieldy, these rules are NOT IN CONFLICT, therefore Codex vs Rulebook does not matter.

barnowl wrote:

Lordhat wrote:

DeathReaper wrote:

Actually they do strike at I10 since codex trumps BRB. So they will pile in and strike at I10 when banshee strike, I1 in subsequent rounds.

Codex does not automatically trump the BGB. Specific trumps general. ALL banshees have a mask, making that rule the general one, not all Banshees have an unwieldy weapon, making that rule more specific than the mask. Banshees with unwieldy weapons strike at initiative one.

Bad Logic. The BRB rule is the general rule as it covers all situations not modified elsewhere. The codex is the specific rule as it only effects things in that codex. So codex wargear rules override BRB wargear rules It does not matter if it is one Banshee with a mask in 10 with axes or one axe with 10 masks, that does not change which is the general or the specific.

If this is the case, then SM seargents with PF's strike at Ini 4 when assaulting through cover because they have frag grenades.

DeathReaper wrote:Except that the right column on P.23 equates the two terms, so the models initiative step is when he is allowed to make attacks.

P.23 right column bold says "Models make their attacks when their initiative step is reached" It also states "Note that certain situations, abilities and
weapons can modify a model's Initiative."

/thread.
Another "OMG GW Y U MAKE RULES LOOPHOLE" that isn't there at all.

Pile in does not reference A MODEL'S initiative step.

I agree that a model's initiative step is when they attack.

But Pile In doesn't care what initiative step a model is.

You pile in when you reach an initiative step EQUAL TO THE INITIATIVE OF THE MODEL.

Once again, NOT THE MODELS STEP,

Thus Unwieldy does not effect pile in.

Read the page 429 !
Cleary states Initiative VALUE!
- All models with this Initiative value now Pile in
- All engaged models with this Initiative now get to make a number of Attacks ....

Unwieldy, makes you to ATTACK at I1 does not change your Initiative VALUE.

Again Pile in and Attacking are 2 separate rules with different conditions affecting them.

Read page 22. Charging through Difficult terrain, is only referring to attacking at I1 not pile in!

Right, they attack at I1 so their initiative step is I1.

At each Initiative STEP, you pile in models with an Initiative VALUE.

At each Initiative STEP, you roll attacks for each model attacking at that initiative STEP.

Unwieldy effects STEP, not VALUE.

Thus does not effect Pile In.

Having double checked Unwieldy, it seems you're right.
Models with a Force Halbard would still pile in at I6 though.

The rules on P.22 and 23 equate the two.

From P.22 "a model's Initiative determines when he attacks in close combat."

and of course P.23 "Note that certain situations, abilities and weapons can modify a rnodel's Initiative."

P.23 "Models make their attacks when their Initiative step is reached"

The summary helps clear this up:

Starting at Initiative step 10, count down through the steps towards 1 until you reach anlnitiative value that one or more participants not involved in a challenge have (see page 22).

All models with this Initiative value now Pile In (see page 23).

All engaged models (see page 23) with this Initiative now get to make a number of Attacks equal to their Attacks characteristic plus any bonus Attacks they are entitled to (see page 24).

This shows that the two are synonymous. Pile in moves and striking are done at the same initiative value. So if you strike at I1 you pile in at I1.

The rules on Pg 23 say differently.

Kiredor wrote:The rules on Pg 23 say differently.

No it does not.

P.23 equates the two.

"Models make their attacks when their Initiative step is reached"

you can't pile in before your initiative step can you?

When is a models Initiative step?
When it makes its attacks.

So you pile in when you make your attacks, and you make your attacks when your Initiative step is reached.

Yes, but the rules for Pile In do not reference a models initiative step.

edit: Or rather, the Pile In rules do not occur at a models initiative step, but at the step equal to a models initiative.

In fact, unwieldy does not change a models initiative step at all.

Only the step when a model makes its attacks.

By the rules, a Space Marine Sergeant is I4, even with a powerfist.

Thus anything that references his Initiative uses this value, even Pile In, as it DOES NOT CARE WHEN A MODEL ATTACKS.

Kiredor wrote:Yes, but the rules for Pile In do not reference a models initiative step.

You're ignoring his point.

DeathReaper is saying that Initiative Step and Initiative are the same thing.
Therefore anything referencing Initiative Step is also referencing Initiative.

DR - feel free to correct me if I'm misunderstanding you.

Note - I'm not trying to involve myself, just trying to prevent a misconception

P.23 and P.22 still equate the models Initiative value as being the same as its initiative step.

Or did you miss P. 22:

P.22 "a model's Initiative determines when he attacks in close combat."

P.22 says it all. attacks are made at the models Initiative value, which is when models Pile in.

The Unwieldy rule does not modify a Models Initiative Step.

Only the point at which the model makes its attacks.

Also Pile In references the model's initiative.

This is not changed by Unwieldy

If Initiative and Initiative Step are the same thing, then a model with an Unwieldy weapon has an Initiative Step equal to its Initiative.

But it resolves its attacks at I1.

Otherwise the way both Pile In and Unwieldy are written is completely unnecessary.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
The issue is, DR, that we are applying a more complex rule to the ones you are quoting.

Unwieldy changes SOME aspects of this, not all of them

For a model with no further rules, you are correct.

But when we add Unwieldy to the mix it changes.

An I4 model now has a special rule that means it ATTACKS at Initiative Step 1, this does not change its base Initiative, or even its base Initiative Step. If they wanted Pile In to occur at the point a model attacks, it would have been simple for them to say that.

Rigeld, please join the discussion. I beleive you would have valuable input.

DR, please dont take me starting this thread as a slight from our other postings. I believe that if these 3 questions can be answered, it should cover init pile in swinging.

Kiredor wrote:The Unwieldy rule does not modify a Models Initiative Step.

Only the point at which the model makes its attacks.

Also Pile In references the model's initiative.

This is not changed by Unwieldy

If Initiative and Initiative Step are the same thing, then a model with an Unwieldy weapon has an Initiative Step equal to its Initiative.

But it resolves its attacks at I1.

Otherwise the way both Pile In and Unwieldy are written is completely unnecessary.

We know that a model strikes at it's Initiative Step. Agree?
We know an Unwieldy weapon strikes at Initiative Step 1. Agree?
We know that Initiative and Initiative Step are the same thing. Agree?
Pile In happens at your Initiative, which we know is the same thing as Initiative Step. Agree?
Therefore we know that a model using an Unwieldy weapon piles in and attacks at Initiative (Step) 1.

edit: Again, I'm summarising DR's arguments, I haven't tried to put my own thoughts in here yet. DR, feel free to correct me.

Rigeld, ill answer in order

A - For a model with no rules modifying this, yes.

B - A model makes its ATTACKS at Initiative Step 1, yes.

C - They are NOT interchangeable.

D - No, because Pile In occurs at the Initiative Step equal to a Models Initiative VALUE. Not a models initiative step.

E - See above.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
"a model's Initiative determines when he attacks in close combat" is not reversable.

The point at which a model makes its attacks DOES NOT DETERMINE ITS INITIATIVE.

Kiredor wrote:C - They are NOT interchangeable.

Please explain why GW uses them interchangeably on page 22 and 23.

As I, and rig have stated P.22 and P.23 use Initiative and Initiative Step interchangeably.

The quotes show this to be true:

P.22 "a model's Initiative determines when he attacks in close combat."

P.23 "Models make their attacks when their Initiative step is reached"

Initiative = when he attacks = initiative step.

@imweasel: none taken, it is a complicated issue.

DeathReaper wrote:The rules on P.22 and 23 equate the two.

From P.22 "a model's Initiative determines when he attacks in close combat."

and of course P.23 "Note that certain situations, abilities and weapons can modify a rnodel's Initiative."

P.23 "Models make their attacks when their Initiative step is reached"

The summary helps clear this up:

Starting at Initiative step 10, count down through the steps towards 1 until you reach anlnitiative value that one or more participants not involved in a challenge have (see page 22).

All models with this Initiative value now Pile In (see page 23).

All engaged models (see page 23) with this Initiative now get to make a number of Attacks equal to their Attacks characteristic plus any bonus Attacks they are entitled to (see page 24).

This shows that the two are synonymous. Pile in moves and striking are done at the same initiative value. So if you strike at I1 you pile in at I1.

no, they are clearly two separate rules, please point out which rule in the book modify the VALUE of Initiative?

Page 22, difficult terrain: ".... must ATTACK at Initiative STEP 1, does not mention Pile in whatsoever.

Page 23, Initiative Step Pile in, Initiative VALUE= pile in step, sure if your I=1 the you pile in and attack with one, but UNWEILDY makes you to ATTACK at Initiative Step 1, does not affect you Initiative Value ! so for SM I4 with PF, you pile in with Initiative value 4 (no modification, even if they did not have grenades and if they charge through difficult terrain) and you ATTACK with initiative 1 due to Unwieldy RAW.

There is no rule, at least as far as i recall in the book which is affecting you INITIATIVE VALUE, there are rules which make you to ATTACK at different Initiative STEPs like Difficult terrain.

godra read my last post that shows:

Initiative = when he attacks = initiative step.

It is all right there.

As above. GW equate the terms Initiative and Initiative Step

If you are an I4 model with an I1 weapon, you pile in and attack at I1.

So we can assume anything that modifies when a model attacks also modifies their initiative?

Edit: Meaning Howling Banshees on the charge with power axes are now both Initiative 10 and Initative 1? so roll off?

Im confused as to why they would use different definitions of Initiative Step and pile in, if there was no way that a model could have different values for them.

Maybe thats where I'm mistaken.

No roll off, just I1

DeathReaper wrote:godra read my last post that shows:

Initiative = when he attacks = initiative step.

It is all right there.

Again, you have two separate rules

1 is Pile in with Initiative value at Initiative step (there is no rule in the book which is affecting Initiative VALUE)
2 is Attacking with Initiative value at initiative step, and here, your modifications for Difficult terrain or Unwieldy apply,

Unwieldy = Does not change your initiative VALUE, is says :"A model attacking with this weapon does so at Initiative STEP 1...." it does not say "his initiative value =1", thus this is not affecting Pile in! (Initiative Value)

If we follow your logic then every model with Unwieldy if is forced to do Characteristic check (in close combat) based on his initiative Value would have to do it on I1... (Initiative step 1 = when he attacks 1= Initiative1) And that is wrong.
Anyway, I'm going to bed enough of this BS.

But why?

If Initiative and Initiative Step are the same, both of them do the same thing.

We now have two rules that modify initiative, and two rules that modify the initiative that you attack. Thus we have a conflict.
(if Initiative and Initiative Step are the same).

Why does Unwieldy take precedence, if both rules mean the same thing? (Modify I)

Initiative and Initiative Step have to be different.

god.ra wrote:Again, you have two separate rules

1 is Pile in with Initiative value at Initiative step (there is no rule in the book which is affecting Initiative VALUE)

Re-read initiative step pile it, it does not mention anything about the models initiative value.

P.23 talks about the value of the current initiative step.

DeathReaper wrote:

god.ra wrote:Again, you have two separate rules

1 is Pile in with Initiative value at Initiative step (there is no rule in the book which is affecting Initiative VALUE)

Re-read initiative step pile it, it does not mention anything about the models initiative value.

It does Page 429!

- ALL MODELS WITH HIS INITIATIVE VALUE NOW PILE IN

P. 429 is the summary, read the actual full length rules on P.23

Though initiative value of the current initiative step is equated to the models initiative value that the model strikes at.

P. 429: "All models with this Initiative value now Pile In (see page 23)." Notice the See P.23.

P. 429: "All engaged models (see page 23) with this Initiative now get to make a number of Attacks"

This initiative value and this initiative are equated here on P.429 as well.

DeathReaper wrote:P 429 is the summary, read the actual full length rules on P.23

Though initiative value of the current initiative step is equated to the models initiative value that the model strikes at.

"All models with this Initiative value now Pile In (see page 23)." Notice the See P.23.

If we follow your logic then every model with Unwieldy if is forced to do Characteristic check (in close combat) based on his initiative Value would have to do it on I1... (Initiative step 1 = when he attacks 1= Initiative1) And that is wrong.
Anyway, I'm going to bed enough of this BS.
Good night.

They only equate the terms for pile in and attacking. they are not equated for anything else. To do so would violate the permissive ruleset.

DeathReaper wrote:P. 429 is the summary, read the actual full length rules on P.23

Though initiative value of the current initiative step is equated to the models initiative value that the model strikes at.

P. 429: "All models with this Initiative value now Pile In (see page 23)." Notice the See P.23.

P. 429: "All engaged models (see page 23) with this Initiative now get to make a number of Attacks"

This initiative value and this initiative are equated here on P.429 as well.

Just to throw this out there, but gw summaries are bad examples to use for raw...

If his entire argument was based on the summary it would matter.

Another poster brought up the summary to refute his argument.

Pile in states that 'at each initiative step, each model with an initiative VALUE equal to the current initiative step'.
pg 23.

That answers DRs question about Pile In mentioning initiative Value.

Kiredor wrote:Pile in states that 'at each initiative step, each model with an initiative VALUE equal to the current initiative step'.
pg 23.

That answers DRs question about Pile In mentioning initiative Value.

Maybe re-read P.23 because it does not say that...

It says
"Start of Initiative Step Pile In
At the start of each Initiative step, any model whose Initiative is equal to the value of the current Initiative step, that isn't already in base contact with an enemy model, must make a Pile In move." P.23

Where does it say Initiative value equal to the current step?

The rules tell you, without considering USR or how other special rules interact with them, how to resolve a combat.

If they did, there would be numerous additional entries on how to resolve every single situation that could arise (I.E. Banshee masks setting you at I1 vs Lash whips/coils setting you at I1, which according to the tyranid FAQ, must be rolled off for)

Unwieldy, as a USR, changes the way you interact with the standard rules. It tells you to strike at I1.

Assaulting through terrain causes you to strike at I1/fight at initiative step 1.

So, we have rules telling us that you strike at an initiative value. They do not, however, tell us what your initiative value is when you strike.

Last paragraph pg.22 states - "Models charging through difficult terrain fight at Initiative step 1".

We know 100% for sure when it is initiative step 1, those models who are unwieldy or having gone through terrain, make their attacks.

Top of pg. 23 states - "At the start of each Initiative step,...(cont)"

We start at I10 and work our way down, as stated on Pg 22. Models strike at their initiative, unless otherwise indicated.

"... any model whose Initiative is equal to the value of the current Initiative step,...(cont)"

This does not reference when you are striking. IT only matters what your initiative is.

"...that isn't already in base contact with an enemy model, must make a Pile In move."

These are our instructions for making Pile In moves, in regards to Initiative steps.


Right now the counter argument is that,

When you pile in = Initiative = Initiative step = When you strike in combat

Therefore

When you pile in = Initiative = When you strike in combat

Therefore

When you pile in = When you strike in combat

I fail to see where in the rulebook it tell us where the above is true.

In the example on Pg. 22 it gives us the charging through terrain example.

It says, "... all of the Guardians will striek at Initiative 1 as they have charged through difficult terrain. This only affects their Initiative step in the phase..."

This tells us that,

Striking at/Attacking at I1 = Being initiative step 1

However, our pile in moves do not reference you making your pile in move at your initiative step. They actually do the exact opposite, and tell you to move at your initiative, during that step.

So, initiative step 4 - Any model with Initiative 4 piles in from attackers. Any model with Initiative 4 piles in from defenders. Any model striking at/attacking at/fighting in initiative step 4 makes their attacks.

That's all it says. Pile in moves never reference your model's initiative step. They reference the Initiative step sub-phase of the fight sub-phase, but never a model's initiative step.

Conclusion

You strike at, attack at, fight at, your initiative step is at, are all synonymous.

You pile in is at your initiative, regardless of initiative step.

What about lashes or whip coils that change your initiative when you reach base contact?

Your I4 Marines get charged by Wraiths. They make their pile in at I4 .... as soon as they reach base contact they are I1.

What they move in and stop ? then wait till initiative 1?

Tyrs13 wrote:What about lashes or whip coils that change your initiative when you reach base contact?

Your I4 Marines get charged by Wraiths. They make their pile in at I4 .... as soon as they reach base contact they are I1.

What they move in and stop ? then wait till initiative 1?

RAW, yes.

The entire assault section is poorly written and rife with tomfoolery.

This is silly ... they should have left it that you charge in and then your enemy piles in to strike at initiative.

Their stupid 10 step process was done in 3 steps last edition.

Charge
Pile In
Strike

These are all direct from the rulebook

any model whose Initiative is equal to the value of the current Initiative step, that isn't alreadyinbasecontactwithanenemymodel,mustmakeaPile In move
(You pile in at your initiative step)

A model is engaged in combat, and must fight if:
• During its Initiative step, it is in base contact with one or more enemy models. etc...
(you check for engagement at your initiative step

Models make their attacks when their Initiative step is reached,
(You attack at your initiative step)

So,the rules say that you pile in, check engagement, and attack, all on your initiative step. The *only* way to follow all of these rules, is if the PFist sgt has an initiative step of 1

Traceoftoxin wrote:"... any model whose Initiative is equal to the value of the current Initiative step,...(cont)"

This does not reference when you are striking. IT only matters what your initiative is.

False. Did you actually read any of my posts?

Traceoftoxin wrote:"...that isn't already in base contact with an enemy model, must make a Pile In move."

These are our instructions for making Pile In moves, in regards to Initiative steps.

Good, now follow along.

Traceoftoxin wrote:Right now the counter argument is that,

When you pile in = Initiative = Initiative step = When you strike in combat

Therefore

When you pile in = Initiative = When you strike in combat

Therefore

When you pile in = When you strike in combat

Good, you are getting it.

Traceoftoxin wrote:I fail to see where in the rulebook it tell us where the above is true.

Ohh so close yet so far.

Let me sum up.

"Start of Initiative Step Pile In
At the start of each Initiative step, any model whose Initiative is equal to the value of the current Initiative step, that isn't already in base contact with an enemy model, must make a Pile In move." P.23

This tells us that any model whose Initiative is equal to the value of the current Initiative step gets to pile in.

P.22 "a model's Initiative determines when he attacks in close combat."

So a models Initiative determines when he attacks in close combat, and any model whose Initiative is equal to the value of the current Initiative step must make a Pile In move.

The rules equate a models initiative to being when he attacks in combat, and when he makes a pile in move.

For a Power fist this is I1.

So a Power Fist will pile in, and attack at I1.

A Halberd wielding GK paladin will attack, and pile in at I6

Unless you have rules references to override this, please retract your statements.

DeathReaper wrote:
The rules equate a models initiative to being when he attacks in combat, and when he makes a pile in move.

You are inferring this. It never says this. I explicitly explained this.

[Edit] As I stated before, I agree the intention is as you state, but RAW, it is not. You are saying because A=B, and B=C, and C=D, that A=D. This is untrue.

[Edit 2] Your initiative tells you to attack at I4, but this wargear, says no, you attack at I1. It's a case of specific overriding generic. The generic rule is you pile in then attack, but wait, you don't attack now, you attack at I1. You still piled in because it's your initiative, but now you're attacking at I1.

He is *NOT inferring it, the rules explicitly state that in *very* clear terms.

I even provided the exact rule quotes...

Here, I will give them again...

These are all direct from the rulebook, cut and paste:

any model whose Initiative is equal to the value of the current Initiative step, that isn't already in base contact with an enemy model, must make a Pile In move
(You pile in at your initiative step)

A model is engaged in combat, and must fight if:
• During its Initiative step, it is in base contact with one or more enemy models. etc...
(you check for engagement at your initiative step

Models make their attacks when their Initiative step is reached,
(You attack at your initiative step)

So,the rules say that you pile in, check engagement, and attack, all on your initiative step. The *only* way to follow all of these rules, is if the PFist sgt has an initiative step of 1

coredump wrote:any model whose Initiative is equal to the value of the current Initiative step, that isn't already in base contact with an enemy model, must make a Pile In move
(You pile in at your initiative step)

An initiative step is essentially a subphase of the fight subphase.

This rule does not ask what initiative step you are fighting at. It asks what your initiative is.

We know that you determine initiative step by looking at your initiative.

We know that several rules change your initiative step. This does not change your initiative. Nowhere does it say it changes anything but the initiative step at which you fight.

I've quoted all the same rules in my post, if you read it fully you'll see I am reading the exact same things as you.

You cannot say A=D just because A=B, B=C, and C=D. That's math, not language.

Once again, I agree that is the intention, but that is not how it is written. At no point are we told that your initiative changes, that your initiative is the same as your initiative step (although we know your initiative step is derived from your initiative).

The only way to make it read how you say is to assume that your initiative changes if your initiative step changes, or that "...any model whose Initiative is equal..." was a typo and meant to be something along the lines of, "...any model who is fighting in this initiative step..."

Actually thats transitive logic, which does apply ni English


They are made equivalent, and it is perfectly valid to use that equivalence consistently.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Actually thats transitive logic, which does apply ni English


They are made equivalent, and it is perfectly valid to use that equivalence consistently.

So when called upon to make sweeping advance if I'm a lone powerfist sergeant I use I1 because initiative = initiative step. Got it.

Nope, thats a strawman and you know it. Logical fallacies dont make good arguments.

In the context of making attacks, you would be correct. How about keeping it in the context of the rules? That would be a help.

Tyrs13 wrote:This is silly ... they should have left it that you charge in and then your enemy piles in to strike at initiative.

Their stupid 10 step process was done in 3 steps last edition.

Charge
Pile In
Strike

Yes, but this new system was designed to kill the models in the middle of the fray so it was more .... wait for it .... cinematic.

If everyone piled in first and then you killed all the models in the middle, necrons and orks would never get to swing against most units, as all of the models in b2b and 2" out would be killed off first. This would leave this giant void of models outside of combat not getting to do anything. This new process is designed to give lower initiative armies a chance to fill in the void of casualties caused from higher initiative swings.

Traceoftoxin wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:Actually thats transitive logic, which does apply ni English


They are made equivalent, and it is perfectly valid to use that equivalence consistently.

So when called upon to make sweeping advance if I'm a lone powerfist sergeant I use I1 because initiative = initiative step. Got it.

You should read the Unwieldy rule again. Here, I'll quote it for you.

Amodel attacking with this weapon does so at Initiative step 1,unless it is a Monstrous Creature or a Walker.

Is a Sweeping Advance an attack?

rigeld2 wrote:
Is a Sweeping Advance an attack?

Is Piling In?

Unit1126PLL wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
Is a Sweeping Advance an attack?

Is Piling In?

No. But you pile in on the same step you attack. You must attack at I1, therefore you pile in at I1.

rigeld2 wrote:

Unit1126PLL wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
Is a Sweeping Advance an attack?

Is Piling In?

No. But you pile in on the same step you attack. You must attack at I1, therefore you pile in at I1.

Ok, I know this has been stated before, but the underlined part - where is it in the BRB?

I agree, I just need to be able to cite it for my group.

Pages 22 and 23. When you read them together, then in context they equate init and init steps.

Unit1126PLL wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

Unit1126PLL wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
Is a Sweeping Advance an attack?

Is Piling In?

No. But you pile in on the same step you attack. You must attack at I1, therefore you pile in at I1.

Ok, I know this has been stated before, but the underlined part - where is it in the BRB?

I agree, I just need to be able to cite it for my group.

Dude... Really???

I have quoted the *exact* rules... Twice... on this page...

How did you completely miss them??

They are not 'inferrfed', they are not paraphrased, they require no assumptions....

I did a copy and paste. Look above your post.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Nope, thats a strawman and you know it. Logical fallacies dont make good arguments.

In the context of making attacks, you would be correct. How about keeping it in the context of the rules? That would be a help.

To achieve the end state you are all describing you must assume that the term initiative step is synonymous with initiative. There is no other way to look at it that results in the situation you describe.

The rule does not state, "At your initiative step, pile in".

It states, that at each initiative step (Which is describing each step as a sub-phase of the fight sub-phase) if your initiative is equal to the current step you pile in.

It makes no mention of your initiative step at all, just the initiative step that is currently occuring. So to assume they mean you pile in based off of YOUR initiative step is to assume that YOUR INITIATIVE is the same as YOUR INITIATIVE STEP.

Sweeping advance tells you to compare Initiative. If your initiative is the same as your initiative step, then you would use I1 for sweeping advance with unwieldy.

It clearly describes the initiative steps as being something of a sub-phase, with there being 10 steps and you work out who fights on what step. Pile in makes no mention of when you fight, it asks if your I is equal to the current step. Period.

It is neither a strawman argument, nor a logical fallacy. It is completely relevant.

P.26 "When a Sweeping Advance is performed, both the unit falling back and the winning unit roll a D6 and add their unmodified Initiative to the result."

SA Specifically tells you to use Unmodified initiative, your point is moot.

DeathReaper wrote:P.26 "When a Sweeping Advance is performed, both the unit falling back and the winning unit roll a D6 and add their unmodified Initiative to the result."

SA Specifically tells you to use Unmodified initiative, your point is moot.

Touche. I concede this to you.

So after having a (quite) a few drinks, re-reading the posts and the rulebook (including the example that has a PF wielding Sarge. I'm jumping off the difference train, and siding with same time.

Per pp 21 - 23: You roll for charge distance (considering difficult terrain if necessary) then move the assaulting unit. You only need to Pile In at an Initiative step if you are not already in b2b.

Per p 23 2nd column: Models attack when their Initiative step is reached - "Note that certain situations, abilities and weapons can modify a model's Initiative"

Per p 23 1st column: at the start of each Initiative step if not already in b2b you Pile in.

Taking in the contents of pp 21 - 23: if necessary, you pile in and attack at the particular Initiative step determined by your abilities and weapons. You Pile in and attack during the same step.

I'm reluctantly jumping on the pile-in at the same time you are supposed to strike. It just makes things so much easier.

I am not totally sold on this. For instance, a pf DOESN'T modify a model's initiative (nor any other unwiedly weapon), despite what pg 23 says.

This also leaves a few things broken, but that's hardly surprising coming from gw....

I have a question for people.

This is a question that should be easy to answer.

If the point you attack is the same as your initiative step,

and your initiative step is the same as your Initiative.

Then it equates that the point you attack is your initiative?

What makes something forcing you to attack at a set initiative, such as Unwieldy, override something that sets your initiative? Such as a banshee mask?

If Attack at Init 1 means Initiative 1 in the assault.

Then Initiative 10 in the assault means Attack at Init 10.

These two rules must be the same if all things are equitable?
(Im fully with Unwieldy making a normal model I1, that's not my issue.)

I know they should be different, I'm just not able to figure out the logic, other than that's how it's always worked.

Basically, if any modifier to initiative or initiative step or step of attacking modifies all of them, how do we decide which happens first?

What am I missing?

you are missing that the Banshee mask sets the models initiative to 10.

Also you are missing that, despite what Initiative value the model has, it will strike at I1 with an unwieldy weapon.

DeathReaper wrote:you are missing that the Banshee mask sets the models initiative to 10.

Also you are missing that, despite what Initiative value the model has, it will strike at I1 with an unwieldy weapon.

First the banshee mask is a non stater. Both the mask and unwieldy are set modifiers. They conflict because the both require a set value. The rules ( I specificaly quote the Nid FAQ for Lash Whips) "When two set modifers have to be used roll off to see what one is in place".

Either the mask makes it I10 or the axe makes it I1. You roll to see which one when the banshees charge and the mask tries to work. You then know the models initative.

The section you are tring to use is a clarrification of who can fight. It is not a step in the process. Get to the init. Pile in. Roll to hit. Roll to wound. Roll saves. Do the opponents models for the same init. Decrement and repeat.

There is no "attack" or "strike". There is a to hit roll for models that can fight after they pile in based on their init.

So models do not make Attacks? Odd, that is contrary to the rulebook

Banshee masks set your I value to 10.

Axes make you STRIKE AT I1

Axes win out, same as they make an I4 sarge strike at I1

nosferatu1001 wrote:So models do not make Attacks? Odd, that is contrary to the rulebook

Banshee masks set your I value to 10.

Axes make you STRIKE AT I1

Axes win out, same as they make an I4 sarge strike at I1

First all I can say AGAIN is that both the axe and the mask modify Init. to a set value. Your claim about the sargent in the example is bogus becasue he does not have a banshee mask. The only thing afffecting his Init is the Axe and that does make him I1. If you have 2 set modifiers you have to roll it off. Please refer to the FAQ for the Necrons and Nids. (Not sure why it is not also in the Eldar FAQ).

No they don't. And no it is not contrary to the rulebook.
Unless you are talking about rolling to hit. There is not an Init check when rolling to hit.

Please detail how you read how the Fight-Subphase is resolved. In all its steps. Becasue this is how it is if you go by the step headings. Apply all modifers to Init. when determining what the models Init.
1) Starting with I10 check for units with an Initative currently at the Initative step.
2) Players whos turn it is pile in: Check the initative of each model. If it is equal to the Initative round it acts this round. Make a pile in move of 3" for each model able to act.
3) Check who can attack: Defined as anyone in BtB or within 2" of an attacking model in BtB can be attacked. States that models with the same initative strike at the same time even if they are already killed during the attackers turn.
4) Detetmine number of attacks: For each model take base number of attacks in profile and apply modifers.
a) Roll to hit: Compare WS on chart. Roll to see if you hit for each attack.
b) Roll to wound: Compare Strength of weapon to average Toughness of the unit being hit for each successfull to hit roll.
5) Allocate wounds: Allocate wounds per rules.
6) Make saves: Make any saves on each wounded model that may be applied. Mark the number of unsaved wounds on each model.
7)Repeat steps 2-7 for the unit for the opponets turn.
8) Remove all causualties for both sides.
9) Decrement the Initative step by 1. Repeat steps 1-9 until Step I0 is hit. When I0 is hit the Fight Sub-Phase is over. Go to Combat Res.

So where is there a "Check Initiative of weapon used to strike the opponet." step?

Please cite all refrences so I can compare.

*EDIT-Forgot to put in determine number of attacks. Modifed steps to incude this step.*

DeathReaper wrote:you are missing that the Banshee mask sets the models initiative to 10.

Also you are missing that, despite what Initiative value the model has, it will strike at I1 with an unwieldy weapon.

Sorry, I got lost now, so The Banshee will Pile In at I10 (set value ,as per initiative step pile in), but she will strike at I1 (Unwieldy) as per Who can Strike rule? ))

I have a quick change to step 3. This change is to account for things that change a models Init after the pile in move (like lash whips/coils).

3) Check who can attack: Defined as anyone in BtB or within 2" of an attacking model in BtB can be attacked. States that models with the same initative strike at the same time even if they are already killed during the attackers turn. If there current Init is lower then they can be killed berore they get to strike back.

As an Unwieldy weapon and/or Banshee mask modifies the model's Init before the Init check for Pile-In my original point stands.

god.ra wrote:

DeathReaper wrote:you are missing that the Banshee mask sets the models initiative to 10.

Also you are missing that, despite what Initiative value the model has, it will strike at I1 with an unwieldy weapon.

Sorry, I got lost now, so The Banshee will Pile In at I10 (set value ,as per initiative step pile in), but she will strike at I1 (Unwieldy) as per Who can Strike rule? ))

No, they will pile in when they attack, as covered in my numerous posts. The rules on P.22 and 23 equate a models initiative to being when he attacks in combat, and when he makes a pile in move.

Their Initiative being 10 does not matter as they strike at I1 with the axes.

The same goes for any model with a Power Fist or Thunder hammer.

Anybody else think this was actually intended?

If you're faster than your weapon, you pile in before you strike. If your weapon is faster/hits first, you attack before you finish getting into melee (in the case of halberds).

Gloomfang wrote:So where is there a "Check Initiative of weapon used to strike the opponet." step?

2) Players whos turn it is pile in: Check the initative of each model. If it is equal to the Initative round it acts this round. Make a pile in move of 3" for each model able to act.

You do that right there at 2). because of P.22 and 23 equating a models initiative to when it makes its attacks.

DeathReaper wrote:

Gloomfang wrote:So where is there a "Check Initiative of weapon used to strike the opponet." step?

2) Players whos turn it is pile in: Check the initative of each model. If it is equal to the Initative round it acts this round. Make a pile in move of 3" for each model able to act.

You do that right there at 2). because of P.22 and 23 equating a models initiative to when it makes its attacks.

OK someone found a flaw in my steps. I had the place where you check to see if a model can fight in the wrong place. I think you were talking about that in your reply.

Start Initative Phase.
1) Starting with I10 check for units with an Initative currently at the Initative step.
2) See if any models with that Init. are not in BtB they must move 3" to either get into BtB or as close as possible.
3) See what models are engaged in combat.
4) Models at that Init then attack. If models have the same Init they get to strike back before they are killed.

The order of the rest of the steps are fine from Detetmine number of attacks onwards .

Not sure if this changes my argument on the how you say things are handled.

Just to clarrify on what we agree on:
1)We both agree that Unwieldy makes a model I1.
2)We both agree that a banshee mask makes a model I10 on the charge.
3)We both agree that they are Set Modifiers.
4)We both agree that P.22 and 23 equating a models initiative to when it makes its attacks.

So a few questions so I can understand your arguement.

1) Are you saying that at Step 2 you use the modified or unmodified Init of the model?
2) *Removed due to change in order above*
3) Are you saying that there is a diffrent way to handle the rules confilit of having two conflicting Set Modifiers on the same model other than what is stated in the BRB and the FAQ (Nids and Necrons)?
4)The only other situation that happens even remotly like this is when you pile in to a model with a lash whip or coil. How do you handle that just so I have a frame of refrence?
5) Are you saying that a model has two Init. Attributes? *Added*

Please let me know if there are things you disagre with on my Fight Sub-phase break down.

We agree on those points, with the caveat that for 3, the banshee mask sets the models initiative to 10, so that replaces what he has on his stat line for the first round of combat.


Now to answer your questions:
1) at step 2 you have to use the initiative of the model, unless it has a weapon that makes it strike at a set initiative, then you use the weapon, as that rule is more specific than the models initiative.

3) The banshee masks do not conflict as they set the models initiative to a certain number, which is overridden by the more specific Power fist setting when the model strikes to I1 even though his Initiative score is 10).

4) I am not sure how I would handle this. It is an inconsistency within the rules. I would suggest letting the model attack at whatever initiative he piled in at, then is set to I1 for as long as he is in Base contact.

5) No. the model only has one Initiative attribute, his weapon makes him strike at an initiative that is not on his statline, and this counts as his initiative for as long as he is using that weapon.

Again, gloomfang, you are ignoring the rules

The rules make you *strike* at I1 if you have an Unwieldy weapon. The mask means you ARE I10.

One affects when you attack, due to the rules on pages 22 and 23.

No conflict, no roll off. You pile in WHEN you strike, not before. Clean, simple, and actually follows the rules.