Some people have argued that the Imperial Truth would never have worked. But while I agree that in the short-term it didn't work, I believe in the long run it would have. Why? Here's why...because gods and daemons don't exist. These so-called 'gods' and 'daemons' are merely energy-based xenos from a parallel universe. They merely feed on the emotions of beings from our universe. If people believed they didn't exist, then the Warp would react to people's belief and make it so - causing the former to revert to mere vortexes of primal emotion with no sentience and the latter into mere embodiments of dreams and nightmares but with no purpose or direction. The biggest evidence for this is the Chaos Power's reaction to the Imperial Truth's spread...if it wouldn't have affected them, why did they react so vehemently, when they have basically largely ignored the material universe until then?

What are your thoughts on the matter?

There only one truth, the imperial one.

why did they react so vehemently, when they have basically largely ignored the material universe until then?

I'm sure the Eldar would disagree with this statement, but as far Humans are concerned then Chaos hasn't had much impact until after Horus Heresy, (they did but to normal ignorant citizen they haven't).

Why? Here's why...because gods and daemons don't exist.

The eldar gave sentient and form to the chaos god Slannesh who nearly destroyed them in the material world and created eye of terror, Chaos already has names and power before Imperial truth came to worlds, also if it was the case then the imperium wouldn't have created the Inquisition and the Grey Knights to fight things that don't exisit.

The biggest evidence for this is the Chaos Power's reaction to the Imperial Truth's spread...if it wouldn't have affected them, why did they react so vehemently,

The Imperial truth is the glue that holds the imperium together, with out it world/sectors would fall to individual leaders who would look after themselves rather then the imperium, as has been told
many times in the past of the imperium, without the imperial truth to hold worlds together, the worlds' would be come easier prey for Chaos to corrupt their beliefs, as has been shown in early
Horus Heresy series were some worlds have fallen to prey to Chaos' power because they were cut off from Earth.

Ravenblade666 wrote:

why did they react so vehemently, when they have basically largely ignored the material universe until then?

I'm sure the Eldar would disagree with this statement, but as far Humans are concerned then Chaos hasn't had much impact until after Horus Heresy, (they did but to normal ignorant citizen they haven't).

Not really. If the Powers had focused on the Eldar before the Imperium was founded, the Eldar would have ceased to exist. But they didn't, not like they do against the Imperium. Simply put, it was only when the Emperor began spreading the Imperial Truth that the Powers actually began to extend themselves into the material universe.

Why? Here's why...because gods and daemons don't exist.

The eldar gave sentient and form to the chaos god Slannesh who nearly destroyed them in the material world and created eye of terror, Chaos already has names and power before Imperial truth came to worlds, also if it was the case then the imperium wouldn't have created the Inquisition and the Grey Knights to fight things that don't exisit.

When I meant 'don't exist', I meant that they're not really gods or daemons. Its just the best way to describe them, and ironically, underlines the power behind the Imperial Truth. If enough people believe they don't exist, the Warp will react and make it so. They will lose form and purpose, becoming mere vortexes of primal emotion/embodiments of dreams and nightmares.

The biggest evidence for this is the Chaos Power's reaction to the Imperial Truth's spread...if it wouldn't have affected them, why did they react so vehemently,

The Imperial truth is the glue that holds the imperium together, with out it world/sectors would fall to individual leaders who would look after themselves rather then the imperium, as has been told
many times in the past of the imperium, without the imperial truth to hold worlds together, the worlds' would be come easier prey for Chaos to corrupt their beliefs, as has been shown in early
Horus Heresy series were some worlds have fallen to prey to Chaos' power because they were cut off from Earth.

You forgot the potential for order and rebirth the Imperial Truth represented.

Not the case. It doesn't matter if we believe that they exist or not, they feed of of human corruption, hate ect, basically everything negative about us. The more we indulge ourselves in our pleasures the more the warp daemons strength grows. The whole reason that the shamans all sacrificed themselves was because of how humanity was. More and more of the shamans stopped being reincarnated because there souls were lost in the turbulant warp. (Turbulant because of human corruption that continued to get worse) the warp used to be a serene calm place with normal creatures. For example imagine a regular grizzly bear in the forest. Now imagine mutating evil turning it into a hulking 20 foot tall giant mouth with eyes growing out of the teeth or something similiar in insanity. With the galaxy at peace the warp would be at peace and it would be back to the calm grizzly bear catchin fish instead of the gaping 20ft maw. However, now that there are chaos daemon gods I don't know how the warp could be fixed. Perhaps the galaxy would be peaceful and non corrupt and then you'd have to kill the greater daemons...

Just like now there are people who believe in the ruinous powers and create planatery uprisings, so would it happen in the imperial truths.
Also, its not just Humans who give powwer to the warp. Eldar Do, Dark eldar dont, Many types of xeno's do.

Brother Thomas wrote:Not the case. It doesn't matter if we believe that they exist or not, they feed of of human corruption, hate ect, basically everything negative about us. The more we indulge ourselves in our pleasures the more the warp daemons strength grows. The whole reason that the shamans all sacrificed themselves was because of how humanity was. More and more of the shamans stopped being reincarnated because there souls were lost in the turbulant warp. (Turbulant because of human corruption that continued to get worse) the warp used to be a serene calm place with normal creatures. For example imagine a regular grizzly bear in the forest. Now imagine mutating evil turning it into a hulking 20 foot tall giant mouth with eyes growing out of the teeth or something similiar in insanity. With the galaxy at peace the warp would be at peace and it would be back to the calm grizzly bear catchin fish instead of the gaping 20ft maw. However, now that there are chaos daemon gods I don't know how the warp could be fixed. Perhaps the galaxy would be peaceful and non corrupt and then you'd have to kill the greater daemons...

Yes, they will to continue to exist, but they will lose purpose, since no one believes in them existing or being gods. As they lose more and more drive, they'll be forces to absorb their respective daemons even as those lose drive along with other unaligned daemons, but ultimately the ressult will be the same: they'll still be there, but they won't be sentient anymore.

hotsauceman1 wrote:Just like now there are people who believe in the ruinous powers and create planatery uprisings, so would it happen in the imperial truths.
Also, its not just Humans who give powwer to the warp. Eldar Do, Dark eldar dont, Many types of xeno's do.

Which is why the Imperium was hell-bent on exterminating them even then. The only xenos the Imperium has absolutely NO CHANCE of exterminating even under the Imperial Truth's progress are the Orks. Tyranids and 'crons will take a while, but it can be done. Orks, best we can do is containment.

The creatures of the warp are not shaped by believe and imagination, but by souls and emotion.

KingDeath wrote:The creatures of the warp are not shaped by believe and imagination, but by souls and emotion.

No, but the Warp is shaped by belief. Theoretically, the Emperor now is much stronger than He was during the Great Crusade because of Mankind's belief in Him as the 'God-Emperor'. The Eldar also created their 'gods' in a similar manner. I never stated that 'daemons' and the Powers of Chaos will actually cease to exist, but if Mankind believed they didn't exist, the Warp's reaction to that would effectively rip their teeth out - they'd still be there, but they'd be reduced to impotence simply because EVERYONE believes they don't exist.

Tadashi wrote:

Yes, they will to continue to exist, but they will lose purpose, since no one believes in them existing or being gods. As they lose more and more drive, they'll be forces to absorb their respective daemons even as those lose drive along with other unaligned daemons, but ultimately the ressult will be the same: they'll still be there, but they won't be sentient anymore.

I think there is a connection between chaos and having humans believe in them, after all they do get power from mortals worshipping them but there doesn't seem to be any connection between this and the chaos gods existence. Sure they may gain power from worship but they don't cease to exist without it. If anything is going to be they main reason for the chaos's interest it would be the fact that the Imperium flies giant metal cities through their plane of existence and constantly tap into it to cast spells.

It seems that humans interactions with the warp is what causes warps interactions with the humans. So the Imperial truth does help minimize humans contact with the warp by getting everyone believing it doesn't exist. But the chaos will always have an interest in the Imperuim as long as humans have emotions and will only stop when they stop flying Starships through their hometown.

The emperor is empowered by believers. The Chaos gods are not powered by believers, but evil and corruption via humans and adhumans

Remember : Ignorance is strength.

The purpose of Imperial Truth was related to social control. Less knowledge of chaos meant less risk of forming chaos cults.

In all purposes, the chaos gods are gods and the daemons are demons. They are real in any definition of real, real enough to shred you to bits, in the Dark Millenium at least.

The Imperial Truth is a lie, just as many dictatorships nowadays, such as North Korea, uphold such lies. Much like Manifest Destiny, it's a way to keep the Imperium together, to squash the heretic, the xenos, the mutant.

The Imperial Truth was, simply put, the equivalent of Stalinian propaganda.

doomworcs wrote:

I think there is a connection between chaos and having humans believe in them, after all they do get power from mortals worshipping them but there doesn't seem to be any connection between this and the chaos gods existence. Sure they may gain power from worship but they don't cease to exist without it. If anything is going to be they main reason for the chaos's interest it would be the fact that the Imperium flies giant metal cities through their plane of existence and constantly tap into it to cast spells.

How may times must I repeat myself: THEY WON'T DISAPPEAR!

Hope, anger, violence, desire, despair, ambition - the Powers will continue to exist, just as dreams and nightmares continue to give birth to daemons. But they will not have drive or purpose because people don't believe they exist.

Tadashi wrote: Why? Here's why...because gods and daemons don't exist.

I think everyone agree's that the beings in the warp will continue to exist regardless of what the humans do but it seems that that the point you bring up is that they won't exist as daemons if people stop worshipping them and they will no longer be interested in humans. I am disagreeing saying that they will always exist as daemons with or without human belief or knowledge.

Of course I could just being missing the point altogether.. surly wouldn't be the first time

I just think all the daemons are pissed because we won't keep our spaceships of their front lawn.

doomworcs wrote:

Tadashi wrote: Why? Here's why...because gods and daemons don't exist.

I think everyone agree's that the beings in the warp will continue to exist regardless of what the humans do but it seems that that the point you bring up is that they won't exist as daemons if people stop worshipping them and they will no longer be interested in humans. I am disagreeing saying that they will always exist as daemons with or without human belief or knowledge.

Of course I could just being missing the point altogether.. surly wouldn't be the first time

I just think all the daemons are pissed because we won't keep our spaceships of their front lawn.

*sighs* they will continue to exist, but the Warp will strip away their 'demonic' purpose because people don't believe in it.

I'm curious, as I haven't read a Daemon codex in a while... but when or where does it ever say their drive as daemons (as opposed to turning into your swirly emotional vortexes) relies on people believing in them? The majority of the Imperium has no idea about the real threats of Chaos (they are likely aware to a limited extent regarding heretics and mutants, but not the true dangers of the Warp)

I was under the impression that their transforming into sentient gods from their former state of emotional vortexes (and their continued existence as gods and daemons) is from intense emotions and the souls. Belief has nothing to do with it. Before the Horus Heresy, the Emperor was one of a very very few who even knew the Chaos gods existed, and they've been around as sentient beings loooooong before that (Khorne, Tzeentch, and Nurgle have been around since M2, our Middle Ages)

Even further, it's not like the Eldar believed in Slaanesh before their total hedonism gave it sentience, purpose, and power.

The drive for Chaos is total domination (both of one god over the other 3, as well as domination over the material world), most of the gods' attention is in the warp, competing with each other for supremacy, and the rest is gaining power in the mortal world through the expression of their given emotion, either by thought or by deed. You'd have to remove bloodshed (for Khorne), imagination/wishes/dreams (for Tzeentch), the fear of death/decay (Nurgle), and pleasure (Slaanesh) to accomplish what you suggest, which would also destroy these beings (since their drive/focus is not derived from our belief in them but from our emotion and souls, which is also what gives them power and sentience).

Tadashi wrote:

KingDeath wrote:The creatures of the warp are not shaped by believe and imagination, but by souls and emotion.

No, but the Warp is shaped by belief. Theoretically, the Emperor now is much stronger than He was during the Great Crusade because of Mankind's belief in Him as the 'God-Emperor'. The Eldar also created their 'gods' in a similar manner. I never stated that 'daemons' and the Powers of Chaos will actually cease to exist, but if Mankind believed they didn't exist, the Warp's reaction to that would effectively rip their teeth out - they'd still be there, but they'd be reduced to impotence simply because EVERYONE believes they don't exist.

The sea of souls is shaped by souls and emotions, not by believe. It didn't turn dark and dangerous because the first sentient lifeforms thought that it had to be this way but because they
butchered each other with glee.

Tadashi wrote:The biggest evidence for this is the Chaos Power's reaction to the Imperial Truth's spread...if it wouldn't have affected them, why did they react so vehemently, when they have basically largely ignored the material universe until then?

Because the Emperor also happened to be devastating the Realm of Chaos with his own immense psychic power at the time. As said in Collected Visions and by Erebus (Or it might have been Ingethel, I forget).

Also, to dispute the godhood of the Chaos Gods is a pointless effort IMO. For all intents and purposes, they are gods. Chaos (Not the Warp) was created by emotion, not worship.

Apperently their is a law of science that if no one belives in you including yourself you dont exist so the imperial truth is that if no one belives there are chaos gods then they dont exist except everyone knows there are chaos gods

orkdestroyer1 wrote:Apperently their is a law of science that if no one belives in you including yourself you dont exist so the imperial truth is that if no one belives there are chaos gods then they dont exist except everyone knows there are chaos gods

That's the thing, the regular daemonic attacks makes the Imperial Truth obsolete. It's attempt to rid humanity of superstition and religion was messed up by the whole Heresy and Chaos incursions.

Also, highly unlikely the gods would stop believing in their own existence. While a lack of active worship could have weakened them, all they need is emotion to maintain their power. And with untold billions of humans, experiencing these emotions every moment of every day, well... Their loss of power would be minimal.

I do think the Imperial Truth could cripple the gods, but for a different reason. The lack of belief wouldn't cripple them (it would sting a bit), but if the Emperor had reached his goal of total logic... humanity would essentially be the Vulcans, living by logic and reason and repressing their emotions. That could have very well struck a crippling, even lethal blow to the powers of Chaos, as the lack of outward emotion would turn off the primary source of their power.

*sighs* so this is why they were called Iterators, they had to repeat the message over and over again. Look, the Warp is fed by emotions, but that doesn't mean it doesn't get affected by belief. Unless, you're telling me the old Eldar Gods and Gork and Mork were felt into existence as opposed to coming into existence by the belief of the Eldar and the Orks? The Warp is a psychic realm - emotions and belief alike shape it. The former will continue to sustain them, but the lack of the latter will reduce 'daemons' and 'gods' alike to paper tigers. Especially if the entire species is composed of psykers - the Emperor was planning to accelerate Human evolution after the Imperial Webway was completed after all.

The existence of the Chaos Gods no more depends on their worship by humans than the existence of humans depends on their worship by paramecia.

Manchu wrote:The existence of the Chaos Gods no more depends on their worship by humans than the existence of humans depends on their worship by paramecia.

Yes, but their influence will wane whether they like or not simply because the Warp will make it happen. Its the Warp, not the Powers that is directly affected by the Imperial Truth. And no matter how powerful they are, the Powers do not have complete control of the Warp - no one has. Not the Emperor, not the Powers, not the Hive Mind, not even the Eldar and Ork Gods. If the Warp starts sapping their strength and influence because people believe the beings of the Warp do not have an effect on reality, there's nothing they can do about it.

The Warp is Chaos. Chaos is the Warp. The emotional impact of real space beings on the Immaterium merely draws the attention of the Warp -- the particular character of the distraction that causes Chaos to "turn its head" towards real space beings affects which of the Four Faces will consequently peer into the Materium. The puny rationalizations of real space beings are completely inconsequential. Their beliefs mean nothing to the Ruinous Powers. All the terrible acts carried out in worship of them are nothing more than mostly feeble attempts to catch their fleeting whimsy. If no mortal being ever called them "god" again, they would likely interfere less with the Materium -- but only because their attention would be elsewhere.

To them, the entirety of real space is something like a radio playing in a neighbor's house. You might only notice it when its turned up loud and your neighbor's windows are open. Even then you'd probably only care if they were playing songs you loved. If they were playing stuff you didn't care about or hated, you'd just close your window and tune it out. With that analogy in mind, think of the Great Crusade: billions of lives caught up in violence, facing death and the desire for power, all according to labyrinthine secret plans. The Emperor was in fact playing the Four's favorite songs. He was trying to get their attention.

Manchu wrote:The Warp is Chaos. Chaos is the Warp. The emotional impact of real space beings on the Immaterium merely draws the attention of the Warp -- the particular character of the distraction that causes Chaos to "turn its head" towards real space beings affects which of the Four Faces will consequently peer into the Materium. The puny rationalizations of real space beings are completely inconsequential. Their beliefs mean nothing to the Ruinous Powers. All the terrible acts carried out in worship of them are nothing more than mostly feeble attempts to catch their fleeting whimsy. If no mortal being ever called them "god" again, they would likely interfere less with the Materium -- but only because their attention would be elsewhere.

To them, the entirety of real space is something like a radio playing in a neighbor's house. You might only notice it when its turned up loud and your neighbor's windows are open. Even then you'd probably only care if they were playing songs you loved. If they were playing stuff you didn't care about or hated, you'd just close your window and tune it out. With that analogy in mind, think of the Great Crusade: billions of lives caught up in violence, facing death and the desire for power, all according to labyrinthine secret plans. The Emperor was in fact playing the Four's favorite songs. He was trying to get their attention.

No, they are not. If that were the case, every 'god' would be a Chaos Power simply because they're part of the Warp too. That would include the Eldar and Ork Gods, and even the Emperor in His original form before He was born in a physical body. And you forget Mankind was already bleeding to death along with so many other species long before the Great Crusade during the constant anarchy of Old Night.

Tadashi wrote:*sighs* so this is why they were called Iterators, they had to repeat the message over and over again. Look, the Warp is fed by emotions, but that doesn't mean it doesn't get affected by belief. Unless, you're telling me the old Eldar Gods and Gork and Mork were felt into existence as opposed to coming into existence by the belief of the Eldar and the Orks? The Warp is a psychic realm - emotions and belief alike shape it. The former will continue to sustain them, but the lack of the latter will reduce 'daemons' and 'gods' alike to paper tigers. Especially if the entire species is composed of psykers - the Emperor was planning to accelerate Human evolution after the Imperial Webway was completed after all.

Stop sighing, it doesn't have the same effect in type, and it just comes across as condescending. Okay:

a) that iterator point isn't connected to your argument, they were just spreading the Imperial truth, and have nothing to do with what you're saying here.

b) I'm not saying the Eldar gods (or Gork/Mork) were 'felt' into existence (primarily because I don't know enough about the Eldar's gods to say if they were even just myths or not, and Gork/Mork don't have much fluff tied to them beyond be kunning/brutal). However, it has been repeatedly stated that the Gods of Chaos came into power/sentience/being because (and only because) of intense emotion reaching into the Warp. Barely anybody were even aware of their existence before the Horus Heresy (it's not like the Eldar believed in Slaanesh before he was born and ripped them a new one). They gained in power as the galaxy grew and prospered.

c) I dunno about your sources (is there any fluff to support this?), but according to the CSM codex, it is explicitly stated (on page 8, I might add) that they only grow in power from the actions/thoughts of mortals. essentially if they behave in a way that feeds the god. Belief has no connection to it. It might weaken the gods if the Imperial Truth turned the humans into a more Vulcan outlook (with much more suppressed emotions), but not believing in them isn't the key. The Warp is dreams, nightmares, hopes and emotion. Belief isn't a part of it.

d) You act like they aren't technically gods in this setting. They are. For all intents and purposes, they are gods, and their servants, made from Warpstuff and a fragment of the god's power, they are called daemons. Changing that title doesn't change this. And not believing in them didn't stop them from starting the Horus Heresy, wrecking the Eldar, and totally messing up Mankind with legions of daemons nobody knew existed.

e) why would the Warp start sapping their strength? It's not sentient. The Warp is Chaos, Chaos is the Warp. You don't have one without the other, and Chaos is just spiritual and emotional energy.

In the end, I agree that the Truth would hurt the Gods, but in no way like what you claim.

EDIT: (yes, humanity was bleeding to death long before the Great Crusade. That's why 3/4 of the Gods were born like 38 thousand years before M41.)

No one knows exactly what the Eldar Gods are. It is commonly accepted by fans that Gork and Mork are indeed "Chaos Gods." The "original form" thing you are talking about is entirely made up by you. The suffering experienced by humanity during Old Night was scattered and weak. The suffering, the ambition, the terror, and the complexity of the Great Crusade are on a much higher level because the Great Crusade unifies the efforts of billions. You might think of it as something like an anti-astronomican.

Elector wrote:

Tadashi wrote:*sighs* so this is why they were called Iterators, they had to repeat the message over and over again. Look, the Warp is fed by emotions, but that doesn't mean it doesn't get affected by belief. Unless, you're telling me the old Eldar Gods and Gork and Mork were felt into existence as opposed to coming into existence by the belief of the Eldar and the Orks? The Warp is a psychic realm - emotions and belief alike shape it. The former will continue to sustain them, but the lack of the latter will reduce 'daemons' and 'gods' alike to paper tigers. Especially if the entire species is composed of psykers - the Emperor was planning to accelerate Human evolution after the Imperial Webway was completed after all.

Stop sighing, it doesn't have the same effect in type, and it just comes across as condescending. Okay:

a) that iterator point isn't connected to your argument, they were just spreading the Imperial truth, and have nothing to do with what you're saying here.

b) I'm not saying the Eldar gods (or Gork/Mork) were 'felt' into existence (primarily because I don't know enough about the Eldar's gods to say if they were even just myths or not, and Gork/Mork don't have much fluff tied to them beyond be kunning/brutal). However, it has been repeatedly stated that the Gods of Chaos came into power/sentience/being because (and only because) of intense emotion reaching into the Warp. Barely anybody were even aware of their existence before the Horus Heresy (it's not like the Eldar believed in Slaanesh before he was born and ripped them a new one). They gained in power as the galaxy grew and prospered.

c) I dunno about your sources (is there any fluff to support this?), but according to the CSM codex, it is explicitly stated (on page 8, I might add) that they only grow in power from the actions/thoughts of mortals. essentially if they behave in a way that feeds the god. Belief has no connection to it. It might weaken the gods if the Imperial Truth turned the humans into a more Vulcan outlook (with much more suppressed emotions), but not believing in them isn't the key. The Warp is dreams, nightmares, hopes and emotion. Belief isn't a part of it.

d) You act like they aren't technically gods in this setting. They are. For all intents and purposes, they are gods, and their servants, made from Warpstuff and a fragment of the god's power, they are called daemons. Changing that title doesn't change this. And not believing in them didn't stop them from starting the Horus Heresy, wrecking the Eldar, and totally messing up Mankind with legions of daemons nobody knew existed.

e) why would the Warp start sapping their strength? It's not sentient. The Warp is Chaos, Chaos is the Warp. You don't have one without the other, and Chaos is just spiritual and emotional energy.

In the end, I agree that the Truth would hurt the Gods, but in no way like what you claim.

I've already said that the Warp and Chaos are not completely one and the same, otherwise everything in the Warp would be Chaos Power, including the Eldar and Ork Gods who came into existence because the Eldar and the Orks believed in their existence, and even the Emperor, as He is an existence born by fusing countless souls of shamans into a single being that allowed itself to be born into a mortal form. The Warp is affected by belief, but instead of creating a 'god', people's belief in the Imperial Truth would cause the Warp to sap the strength and influence of the Chaos Powers.

Quite simply, the Ruinous Powers do not exist because real space beings "believe" in them.

Also, you might want to define (hopefully with a source) what the Imperial Truth is.

Okay, seriously, where did you read that the Warp is affected by belief.

Because every OTHER piece of fluff indicates it's affected by emotions.

Also, nobody knows if the Eldar gods were actual entities or just myths, but your argument that the Warp and Chaos are one the same supports the argument that all entities in the Warp are beings of Chaos in some respect.

(also the Emperor shaman-thing? They were thousands of psykers who would die and enter the Warp temporarily, absorb psychic energy, and reincarnate, until their souls started to be consumed by the Powers instead of being born anew, so they had a suicide-pact and reborn at the same time as one immortal. They weren't Warp entities.)

Elector wrote:Okay, seriously, where did you read that the Warp is affected by belief.

Because every OTHER piece of fluff indicates it's affected by emotions.

Also, nobody knows if the Eldar gods were actual entities or just myths, but your argument that the Warp and Chaos are one the same supports the argument that all entities in the Warp are beings of Chaos in some respect.

(also the Emperor shaman-thing? They were thousands of psykers who would die and enter the Warp temporarily, absorb psychic energy, and reincarnate, until their souls started to be consumed by the Powers instead of being born anew, so they had a suicide-pact and reborn at the same time as one immortal. They weren't Warp entities.)

The Eldar Gods came into existence because of the Eldar's belief in them...

Manchu wrote:Quite simply, the Ruinous Powers do not exist because real space beings "believe" in them.

Also, you might want to define (hopefully with a source) what the Imperial Truth is.

Its not referenced like the Imperial Creed, but the HH novels define it as setting aside faith, superstition, and organized religion for logic, reason, and scientific progress. Very inviting really...yes, I am serious.

The Eldar gods are very vague as to their nature in the fluff, they aren't the best example (whether they're myths, Warp entities, or Old Ones is all to be argued)

And yes, that's basically the definition from the article in the 2 srouces I found (one being the lexicanum: http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Imperial_Truth#.T_p-6vV_VyJ

It still doesn't in any way indicate belief is what drives what's what in the Warp.

Elector wrote:
It still doesn't in any way indicate belief is what drives what's what in the Warp.

No, neither of us is wrong. Belief and emotion drive the Warp together. And I never stated 'daemons' and 'gods' would vanish. Dreams and nightmares will keep giving birth to 'daemons', while the Powers would still exist because of people's emotions. They'd just be impotent, that's all. In the end, it boils down to because the fluff is so vague, we can both be right or wrong, or one of us is right and the other is wrong.

And I never thought you were saying they'd vanish. What I'm saying is they will still be as potent as ever, as more fluff very specifically says emotion gives them power/purpose (or whatever you feel qualifies them to be gods) than any fluff that claims belief plays a part beyond people trying to get the gods' attention through worship.

Elector wrote:And I never thought you were saying they'd vanish. What I'm saying is they will still be as potent as ever, as more fluff very specifically says emotion gives them power/purpose (or whatever you feel qualifies them to be gods) than any fluff that claims belief plays a part beyond people trying to get the gods' attention through worship.

Belief won't affect them directly, its the Warp itself that will be affected by belief, which will affect the Powers. The Powers don't have complete control of the Warp, as otherwise the Emperor, and the Eldar and Ork Gods would be rendered impotent. The Ork Gods are actually the opposite, described in Codex: Orks 4th Edition as the mightiest entities in the Warp and surpassing in power everything else - only their anarchic and single-minded nature (just like the Orks themselves) prevent them from achieving complete domination.

Tadashi wrote:

Elector wrote:Okay, seriously, where did you read that the Warp is affected by belief.

Because every OTHER piece of fluff indicates it's affected by emotions.

Also, nobody knows if the Eldar gods were actual entities or just myths, but your argument that the Warp and Chaos are one the same supports the argument that all entities in the Warp are beings of Chaos in some respect.

(also the Emperor shaman-thing? They were thousands of psykers who would die and enter the Warp temporarily, absorb psychic energy, and reincarnate, until their souls started to be consumed by the Powers instead of being born anew, so they had a suicide-pact and reborn at the same time as one immortal. They weren't Warp entities.)

The Eldar Gods came into existence because of the Eldar's belief in them...

Manchu wrote:Quite simply, the Ruinous Powers do not exist because real space beings "believe" in them.

Also, you might want to define (hopefully with a source) what the Imperial Truth is.

Its not referenced like the Imperial Creed, but the HH novels define it as setting aside faith, superstition, and organized religion for logic, reason, and scientific progress. Very inviting really...yes, I am serious.

The exact nature of the Eldar gods has never been stated. In fact what little we know about them points to the theory that they are, just like Slaanesh, aspects/ reflections of the eldar psyche and have not much to do with believe.

The Eldar gods might not even exist outside of Eldar stories. As for Gork and Mork ... who knows what they are? The Orks do have a tendency to "will" things into being by sheer belief; something that is not found in other species at such a literal level. This does not describe the "birth" of Slaanesh (that is, when real space mortals in the Milky Way first drew the attention of the Warp in the way that they named "Slaanesh") or the process of a daemonic incursion, however.

As for the Imperial Truth: I don't think we have enough information to even give it a meaningful definition. As far as I can tell, the Imperial Truth was actually a lie. The Imperial Truth seems to hold that there are no gods or daemons; but these things definitely exist. Calling them "extra-dimensional aliens" or something similar is paltry semantics. It's like insisting we use the word "planet" instead of "world."

Manchu wrote:

As for the Imperial Truth: I don't think we have enough information to even give it a meaningful definition. As far as I can tell, the Imperial Truth was actually a lie. The Imperial Truth seems to hold that there are no gods or daemons; but these things definitely exist. Calling them "extra-dimensional aliens" or something similar is paltry semantics. It's like insisting we use the word "planet" instead of "world."

No, its true. They're not really 'gods' or 'daemons'. In fact, if we let Necrons/Tyranids/Orks kill everything in the galaxy, they'd cease to exist. Not so divine or demonic then, are they?

Making a law that no one can call daemons "daemons" does not make them any less what they actually are: daemons.

The Warp Gods are not dependent upon material life forms for their existence. If all life in the Milky Way galaxy was to suddenly die out, the Ruinous Powers would simply not be interested in the Milky Way any more. I suppose one could say that they would therefore "cease to exist" with regard to the Milky Way galaxy. But that's a turn of phrase rather than a meaningful fact.

Manchu wrote:Making a law that no one can call daemons "daemons" does not make them any less what they actually are: daemons.

The Warp Gods are not dependent upon material life forms for their existence. If all life in the Milky Way galaxy was to suddenly die out, the Ruinous Powers would simply not be interested in the Milky Way any more. I suppose one could say that they would therefore "cease to exist" with regard to the Milky Way galaxy. But that's a turn of phrase rather than a meaningful fact.

They certainly didn't exist before M2, Imperial Calendar, didn't they? Or for that matter, daemons didn't come into being until the latter part of the War in Heaven. In other words, they are dependent on the material universe. Why do you think Necrons are so hell-bent (well, maybe not as much with the newcrons) on disconnecting reality and the Warp? Disconnect the two, and their greatest enemies, daemons and psychic powers, cease to exist.

Because the emotions and fears and hatred and all that kind of stuff would not reach the warp and therefore deprive chaos of its nutrition.

Lord Rogukiel wrote:Because the emotions and fears and hatred and all that kind of stuff would not reach the warp and therefore deprive chaos of its nutrition.

I never stated Chaos wasn't fed by emotions. I merely stated that belief would cause the Warp to react. But since under the Imperial Truth 'gods' and 'daemons' don't exist, instead of creating a 'god' embodying these concepts, the Warp would instead react by restraining and rendering impotent 'gods' and 'daemons' alike.

Tadashi wrote:They certainly didn't exist before M2, Imperial Calendar, didn't they?

They may have. There is no fluff on M2. Even assuming M2 is actual history, why would you be so convinced that what was happening on Earth at the time is indicative of the nature of the Warp?

Tadashi wrote:In other words, they are dependent on the material universe.

A conclusion without evidence is not an argument. Here is an example of an argument:

Manchu wrote:There are a few direct, if purposefully contradictory, images of the Warp.

It is a place where gods thrive in constant war, fighting over the raw stuff of anti-creation that birthed them.

C:CD 4th p.4

Here we see that the Chaos Gods arise from the Warp itself. Is it because the Warp is something that is stirred up into Chaos that would otherwise be placid nothingness? That does not seem to be the case:

Warpspace is Chaos, Chaos is Warpspace; the two are indivisible.

C:CD 4th p.6

There was no time in which the Warp was not Chaos, a thing to be catalyzed into what we might recognize as Chaos. Still, we should look further to find if Chaos/the Warp is meaningfully different from the Chaos gods (i.e., if they are just inhabitants of Chaos/the Warp). Again, this does not seem to be the case:

... for if all other Warp Powers were obliterated, the Warp would become a still, unmoving mass and Chaos would no longer exist.

C:CD 4th p.8

Here is a concise statement of the unity of the Chaos Gods and the Warp. The Chaos Gods are the essence of Chaos; without them, there is no Chaos. And we know, from the quotation above, that Chaos and the Warp are the same thing. No Chaos Gods means no Warp. Still, we'd be remiss to say that the Chaos Gods and the Warp are entirely synonymous, given (as you assert) opinions to the contrary. We have, after all, the Eldar narrative of the birth of Slaanesh. Without their Fall, there would be no Slaanesh and we know the Warp existed before their Fall -- therefore, the Chaos Gods must somehow be separate from the Warp, deriving their existence from emotional triggers in real space. The Daemon dex helpfully reminds us that this is just a matter of perspective:

That is how events are viewed from the chronology of the real universe; in the Warp, things are different. The Realm of Chaos has no true time, and events do not occur in a strict sequence of cause and effect. In essence, Slaanesh has always existed in the Warp, and yet has never existed.

C:CD 4th p.7

In other words, the Eldar account is just that: the account that makes sense to the Eldar. But Chaos is not something that can be neatly categorized by something as puny as a mere racial myth. The "birth" of Slaanesh, as I said, is better understood as a moment when Slaanesh took significant interest in the Eldar in the realspace inhabited by them. Their fall caught the attention of Slaanesh and allowed Slaanesh to catastrophically interfere with realspace.

They weren't reacting to the Imperial Truth, but to the Emperor, who was powerful enough to destroy them.

The Eldar gods existed. An Avatar is a splinter of Khaine and Harlequins souls are protected by the only surviving god, the laughing god, to this day.

As do Gork and Mork, who beat up the other Chaos Gods (including the Eldar ones) like schoolyard bullies.

Everyone's mind/soul registers in the warp, to what degree depends largely on the species. If it is significantly, (I.e. more than a Tau) their beliefs and emotions will manifest in the immaterium and subsequently the "materium" too.

The Gork and Mork deal is only known to Orks. And Orks' perception of reality can't actually be trusted. Similarly, the only race that seems to recognize the Eldar gods' existence is ... go figure ... the Eldar. In short, we have very little information to go on when it comes to comparing the Ork deities and Eldar deities with the Ruinous Powers. There really is no reason to assume they are different examples of the same type of being.

Since The Laughing God really does protect Harlequinns from Chaos and Gork & Mork really do protect Orks in a Fashion from the other warp beings and an Avatar really is a "good" deamon that is actually summoned with warpcraft there's no reason to assume they are not examples of the same type of thing.

KamikazeCanuck wrote:Everyone's mind/soul registers in the warp, to what degree depends largely on the species. If it is significantly, (I.e. more than a Tau) their beliefs and emotions will manifest in the immaterium and subsequently the "materium" too.

My point exactly. It doesn't matter whether or not the Chaos Powers existed forever in the context of the Warp, they don't have full control over it, otherwise, the existence of the Ork Gods or the Emperor don't make sense. Believe in something strong enough, and the Warp will react - I've said it before, the instead of creating a 'god' embodying the virtues of Imperial Truth (truth and enlightenment), it will reduce 'gods' and 'daemons' alike to paper tigers because that's what the most numerous sentient species in the galaxy believe, especially once the Emperor begins turning every Human into fully-realized psykers like the Eldar.

Tadashi wrote:Some people have argued that the Imperial Truth would never have worked. But while I agree that in the short-term it didn't work, I believe in the long run it would have. Why? Here's why...because gods and daemons don't exist. These so-called 'gods' and 'daemons' are merely energy-based xenos from a parallel universe. They merely feed on the emotions of beings from our universe. If people believed they didn't exist, then the Warp would react to people's belief and make it so - causing the former to revert to mere vortexes of primal emotion with no sentience and the latter into mere embodiments of dreams and nightmares but with no purpose or direction. The biggest evidence for this is the Chaos Power's reaction to the Imperial Truth's spread...if it wouldn't have affected them, why did they react so vehemently, when they have basically largely ignored the material universe until then?

What are your thoughts on the matter?

I think the failing of the imperial truth has little to do with wheter or not Chaos gods are gods are not. As is depicted in the remembrances subplot of the first three horus heresy novels, humanity will turn to faith and idolisation in the face of fear and when their concept of reality is questioned.

For example Hamlet after seeing a ghost: "There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, Than are dreamt of in our philosophy.", questions the science he firmly believed in.

Glorioski wrote:

Tadashi wrote:Some people have argued that the Imperial Truth would never have worked. But while I agree that in the short-term it didn't work, I believe in the long run it would have. Why? Here's why...because gods and daemons don't exist. These so-called 'gods' and 'daemons' are merely energy-based xenos from a parallel universe. They merely feed on the emotions of beings from our universe. If people believed they didn't exist, then the Warp would react to people's belief and make it so - causing the former to revert to mere vortexes of primal emotion with no sentience and the latter into mere embodiments of dreams and nightmares but with no purpose or direction. The biggest evidence for this is the Chaos Power's reaction to the Imperial Truth's spread...if it wouldn't have affected them, why did they react so vehemently, when they have basically largely ignored the material universe until then?

What are your thoughts on the matter?

I think the failing of the imperial truth has little to do with wheter or not Chaos gods are gods are not. As is depicted in the first three horus heresy novels. Humanity will turn to faith and idolism in the face of fear and when their concept of reality is questioned.

Ironically, the Imperial Truth required more faith and courage to believe than the Imperial Creed.

Wheras idolisation was a crime (see lorgar for more information).

Glorioski wrote:Wheras idolisation was a crime (see lorgar for more information).

Religion was proscribed by the Emperor...the 'faith' of the Imperial Truth was actually rationalization, which in the long-run would certainly have worked.

'Gods' and 'daemons' are just energy-based life forms from another dimension.

Psychic abilities are just channeling this parallel universe to bend/break the laws of physics in our universe.

'Sorcery' is to invoke these beings to do it, but while it can be done without psychic talent, its unreliable either way since it depends on a third party.

Tadashi wrote:

KamikazeCanuck wrote:Everyone's mind/soul registers in the warp, to what degree depends largely on the species. If it is significantly, (I.e. more than a Tau) their beliefs and emotions will manifest in the immaterium and subsequently the "materium" too.

My point exactly. It doesn't matter whether or not the Chaos Powers existed forever in the context of the Warp, they don't have full control over it, otherwise, the existence of the Ork Gods or the Emperor don't make sense. Believe in something strong enough, and the Warp will react - I've said it before, the instead of creating a 'god' embodying the virtues of Imperial Truth (truth and enlightenment), it will reduce 'gods' and 'daemons' alike to paper tigers because that's what the most numerous sentient species in the galaxy believe, especially once the Emperor begins turning every Human into fully-realized psykers like the Eldar.

Indeed, by superstitiously calling them daemons you are in a way giving them more power. One of the themes of 40K is that the Imperium's brutal tyranny creates as many daemons as it quashes. Even the Imperial Cult, which is to be its sheild from the demons causes problems because those who fall out with the Imperium fall into any sort of anti-imperial-cult. Better to depower the warp than turn it into a warzone.

KamikazeCanuck wrote:

Tadashi wrote:

KamikazeCanuck wrote:Everyone's mind/soul registers in the warp, to what degree depends largely on the species. If it is significantly, (I.e. more than a Tau) their beliefs and emotions will manifest in the immaterium and subsequently the "materium" too.

My point exactly. It doesn't matter whether or not the Chaos Powers existed forever in the context of the Warp, they don't have full control over it, otherwise, the existence of the Ork Gods or the Emperor don't make sense. Believe in something strong enough, and the Warp will react - I've said it before, the instead of creating a 'god' embodying the virtues of Imperial Truth (truth and enlightenment), it will reduce 'gods' and 'daemons' alike to paper tigers because that's what the most numerous sentient species in the galaxy believe, especially once the Emperor begins turning every Human into fully-realized psykers like the Eldar.

Indeed, by superstitiously calling them daemons you are in a way giving them more power. One of the themes of 40K is that the Imperium's brutal tyranny creates as many daemons as it quashes. Even the Imperial Cult, which is to be its sheild from the demons causes problems because those who fall out with the Imperium fall into any sort of anti-imperial-cult. Better to depower the warp than turn it into a warzone.

And turning everyone into fully-realized psykers means making them learn IRON self-control over themselves and their minds. Add to that the Imperial Truth and you have the recipe for the deadliest 'poison' against the creatures of the Warp.

Tadashi wrote:

Glorioski wrote:Wheras idolisation was a crime (see lorgar for more information).

Religion was proscribed by the Emperor...the 'faith' of the Imperial Truth was actually rationalization, which in the long-run would certainly have worked.

'Gods' and 'daemons' are just energy-based life forms from another dimension.

Psychic abilities are just channeling this parallel universe to bend/break the laws of physics in our universe.

'Sorcery' is to invoke these beings to do it, but while it can be done without psychic talent, its unreliable either way since it depends on a third party.

I don't think you understand what I am saying. Idolising the Emperor was forbidden. The lectio divinatus gained strength during the heresy because of human nature. We will look for a saviour in direst need, it's why even atheists can pray to god when they are in a life threatening situation. A humanity without idols is impossible to maintain.

Glorioski wrote:

Tadashi wrote:

Glorioski wrote:Wheras idolisation was a crime (see lorgar for more information).

Religion was proscribed by the Emperor...the 'faith' of the Imperial Truth was actually rationalization, which in the long-run would certainly have worked.

'Gods' and 'daemons' are just energy-based life forms from another dimension.

Psychic abilities are just channeling this parallel universe to bend/break the laws of physics in our universe.

'Sorcery' is to invoke these beings to do it, but while it can be done without psychic talent, its unreliable either way since it depends on a third party.

I don't think you understand what I am saying. Idolising the Emperor was forbidden. The lectio divinatus gained strength during the heresy because of human nature. We will look for a saviour in direst need, it's why even atheists can pray to god when they are in a life threatening situation. A humanity without idols is impossible to maintain.

Oh I understand all right. Basically, the Emperor told people not to believe in a divine or demonic third party, but in themselves and in the innate strength and potential of the Human race. Personally, I believe in the existence of God, but I also believe He leaves Humans and other sentient beings (if any in the REAL world) to control their lives and make their own destinies. Otherwise, what's the point of giving free will in the first place?

Tadashi wrote:

I don't think you understand what I am saying. Idolising the Emperor was forbidden. The lectio divinatus gained strength during the heresy because of human nature. We will look for a saviour in direst need, it's why even atheists can pray to god when they are in a life threatening situation. A humanity without idols is impossible to maintain.

Oh I understand all right. Basically, the Emperor told people not to believe in a divine or demonic third party, but in themselves and in the innate strength and potential of the Human race.

Clearly you don't and are having trouble.

To put it plainly. The Emperor told people not to idolise him. Something which is impossible due to human nature. That is why the imperial truth was always doomed to fail. It's got nothing to do with anything you raise in your original post.

Tadashi wrote:

KamikazeCanuck wrote:

Tadashi wrote:

KamikazeCanuck wrote:Everyone's mind/soul registers in the warp, to what degree depends largely on the species. If it is significantly, (I.e. more than a Tau) their beliefs and emotions will manifest in the immaterium and subsequently the "materium" too.

My point exactly. It doesn't matter whether or not the Chaos Powers existed forever in the context of the Warp, they don't have full control over it, otherwise, the existence of the Ork Gods or the Emperor don't make sense. Believe in something strong enough, and the Warp will react - I've said it before, the instead of creating a 'god' embodying the virtues of Imperial Truth (truth and enlightenment), it will reduce 'gods' and 'daemons' alike to paper tigers because that's what the most numerous sentient species in the galaxy believe, especially once the Emperor begins turning every Human into fully-realized psykers like the Eldar.

Indeed, by superstitiously calling them daemons you are in a way giving them more power. One of the themes of 40K is that the Imperium's brutal tyranny creates as many daemons as it quashes. Even the Imperial Cult, which is to be its sheild from the demons causes problems because those who fall out with the Imperium fall into any sort of anti-imperial-cult. Better to depower the warp than turn it into a warzone.

And turning everyone into fully-realized psykers means making them learn IRON self-control over themselves and their minds. Add to that the Imperial Truth and you have the recipe for the deadliest 'poison' against the creatures of the Warp.

Eh, I've heard that theory before. Having every human be a psyker makes me a little nervous. I know the theory is they will be able to prevent daemonic incursion through team effort but things have a way of getting fethed up big time in 40K. I think it would just lead to galactic extinction when the warp eats the entire milky way in one big bite.

Glorioski wrote:

Clearly you don't and are having trouble.

To put it plainly. The Emperor to people not to idolise him. Something which is impossible due to human nature. That is why the imperial truth was always doomed to fail. It's got nothing to do with anything you raise in your original post.

On the contrary, it would have. The Iterators and the Remembrancers were keeping religion suppressed rather effectively along with 'suppression' action by the Imperial Army and Legio Astartes (until the Heresy broke out of course), but if thing went as planned - the Imperial Webway, scientific progress and Human psychic evolution - the Imperial Truth would have removed that out of the Human psyche.

Tadashi wrote:

Glorioski wrote:

Clearly you don't and are having trouble.

To put it plainly. The Emperor to people not to idolise him. Something which is impossible due to human nature. That is why the imperial truth was always doomed to fail. It's got nothing to do with anything you raise in your original post.

On the contrary, it would have. The Iterators and the Remembrancers were keeping religion suppressed rather effectively along with 'suppression' action by the Imperial Army and Legio Astartes (until the Heresy broke out of course), but if thing went as planned - the Imperial Webway, scientific progress and Human psychic evolution - the Imperial Truth would have removed that out of the Human psyche.

Clearly not. Since the Lectitio Divinitatus was written by Lorgar before the heresy and was spread by the remembrancers. Lorgars idolisation of the Emperor was what started the heresy in the frst place. So you can't say 'it was alright until the heresy broke out' when it itself caused the heresy.

Glorioski wrote:

Tadashi wrote:

Glorioski wrote:

Clearly you don't and are having trouble.

To put it plainly. The Emperor to people not to idolise him. Something which is impossible due to human nature. That is why the imperial truth was always doomed to fail. It's got nothing to do with anything you raise in your original post.

On the contrary, it would have. The Iterators and the Remembrancers were keeping religion suppressed rather effectively along with 'suppression' action by the Imperial Army and Legio Astartes (until the Heresy broke out of course), but if thing went as planned - the Imperial Webway, scientific progress and Human psychic evolution - the Imperial Truth would have removed that out of the Human psyche.

Clearly not. Since the Lectitio Divinitatus was written by Lorgar before the heresy and was spread by the remembrancers. Lorgars idolisation of the Emperor was what started the heresy in the frst place. So you can't say 'it was alright until the heresy broke out' when it itself caused the heresy.

No, NO, NO! Remembrancers were artists, historians, poets and sculptors, sent to record for posterity the achievements of the Great Crusade and to reflect the light of the Imperial Truth into the hearts and minds of people. That was Solomon Voss' petition to the Emperor and the Council of Terra to create the Imperial Order of Remembrancers. Kerrel was insane - had Horus been in his right mind, he would have had her mind-scrubbed/committed/ or even executed for adhering to proscribed religion. Lectitio Divinitatus was bitterly suppressed by the Imperium after Monarchia. It was only during the Horus Heresy did it start to make REAL headway against the Imperial Truth.

Tadashi wrote:

Glorioski wrote:

Tadashi wrote:

Glorioski wrote:

Clearly you don't and are having trouble.

To put it plainly. The Emperor to people not to idolise him. Something which is impossible due to human nature. That is why the imperial truth was always doomed to fail. It's got nothing to do with anything you raise in your original post.

On the contrary, it would have. The Iterators and the Remembrancers were keeping religion suppressed rather effectively along with 'suppression' action by the Imperial Army and Legio Astartes (until the Heresy broke out of course), but if thing went as planned - the Imperial Webway, scientific progress and Human psychic evolution - the Imperial Truth would have removed that out of the Human psyche.

Clearly not. Since the Lectitio Divinitatus was written by Lorgar before the heresy and was spread by the remembrancers. Lorgars idolisation of the Emperor was what started the heresy in the frst place. So you can't say 'it was alright until the heresy broke out' when it itself caused the heresy.

No, NO, NO! Remembrancers were artists, historians, poets and sculptors, sent to record for posterity the achievements of the Great Crusade and to reflect the light of the Imperial Truth into the hearts and minds of people. That was Solomon Voss' petition to the Emperor and the Council of Terra to create the Imperial Order of Remembrancers. Kerrel was insane - had Horus been in his right mind, he would have had her mind-scrubbed/committed/ or even executed for adhering to proscribed religion. Lectitio Divinitatus was bitterly suppressed by the Imperium after Monarchia. It was only during the Horus Heresy did it start to make REAL headway against the Imperial Truth.

If the idolisation of the Emperor was being surpressed like you say, Lorgar would have never written the Lectitio Divinitatus and the heresy as we know it would have never happened. Since it is Lorgars idolisation of the emperor and subsequent dressing down for doing so which started the trail of events which lead to he and other Primarchs turning to chaos.

Idolisation is human nature, that is why the imperial truth was doomed to fail and that is exactly what happened.

You can't argue the imperial truth was sound when it caused it's own downfall. If you deny someone something it is in their nature to do it will breed bitterness, then resentment and eventual betrayal.

Glorioski wrote:

If the idolisation of the Emperor was being surpressed like you say, Lorgar would have never written the Lectitio Divinitatus and the heresy as we know it would have never happened. Since it is Lorgars idolisation of the emperor and subsequent dressing down for doing so which started the trail of events which lead to he and other Primarchs turning to chaos.

The Lectitio Divinitatus was written long before Monarchia, that was why the worship of the Emperor had to be suppressed in the first place, because Lorgar had done something that would sabotage the Imperium's future. Look around the 41st Millennium. The Imperial Cult has ruined everything. Cathedral Worlds are hell compared even to a Forge or Hive World.

It's ok you guys are both right.
It's true humans need to worship something. The Imperial Truth was doomed to fail but that doesn't mean it was wrong.

KamikazeCanuck wrote:It's ok you guys are both right.
It's true humans need to worship something. The Imperial Truth was doomed to fail but that doesn't mean it was wrong.

Not necessarily with the need. Before the Horus Heresy, so long as the Iterators and the Imperial Army/Legio Astartes kept things steady, people were content with the Imperial Truth.

Yes, when there is no crisis, people are not desperate for faith.

Manchu wrote:Yes, when there is no crisis, people are not desperate for faith.

Even in crisis, had the Legio Astartes stood firm, the Imperial Truth would have endured.

Only one of the Primarchs looked at the Warp in "superstitious" terms. None of the others worshiped the Ruinous Powers. Those who "stood firm" in the Imperial Truth before betraying the Emperor were still firmly power-mongering atheists after doing so.

Manchu wrote:Only one of the Primarchs looked at the Warp in "superstitious" terms. None of the others worshiped the Ruinous Powers. Those who "stood firm" in the Imperial Truth before betraying the Emperor were still firmly power-mongering atheists after doing so.

Ahriman still believes in the Imperial Truth, or rather, the spirit of the old Imperium. He swore to get back everything lost at Tizca, and he'll never find the answer in Tzeentch and Chaos. Let him get to the Black Library, use it to go back in time, and prevent the Heresy from happening. Hmmm...I find my creativity sparking...

Tadashi, your argument is tainted by one of the warp's foulest corruption's... fanboyism.

WH40k is not a science fiction setting. It is a space fantasy setting. The Gods and Daemons of the warp have been firmly established as just that, gods and daemons since The Lost and The Damned came out in 1990.

The Imperial truth was a retcon shoehorned into the Horus Heresy series sixteen years later by BL authors. It doesn't even get a blurb in any of the rulebooks. Don't get me wrong, I think the first three Horus Heresy books are fantastic, but I think the tragedy of the Imperial Truth kinda went over your head. Not only did characters like Loken, Garro and Sinderman have to deal with the betrayal they faced from the traitors, they also had to deal with the very foundation of their belief system being turned upside down.

Oakenshield wrote:Tadashi, your argument is tainted by one of the warp's foulest corruption's... fanboyism.

WH40k is not a science fiction setting. It is a space fantasy setting. The Gods and Daemons of the warp have been firmly established as just that, gods and daemons since The Lost and The Damned came out in 1990.

The Imperial truth was a retcon shoehorned into the Horus Heresy series sixteen years later by BL authors. It doesn't even get a blurb in any of the rulebooks. Don't get me wrong, I think the first three Horus Heresy books are fantastic, but I think the tragedy of the Imperial Truth kinda went over your head. Not only did characters like Loken, Garro and Sinderman have to deal with the betrayal they faced from the traitors, they also had to deal with the very foundation of their belief system being turned upside down.

Yes, well, the HH novels are the current canon for the Horus Heresy.

It doesn't matter one way or another. The only traitors who don't subscribe to the Imperial Truth (the Word Bearers) didn't subscribe to it before their betrayal. I don't see Horus, Angron, Perturabo, Fulgrim, Magnus, Curze, Mortarion, or Alpahrius and Omegon worshiping Chaos. It doesn't seem like these guys started believing in gods and daemons in a religious sense after falling. So I guess the Imperial Truth is actually pretty meaningless one way or the other.

Manchu wrote:The Gork and Mork deal is only known to Orks. And Orks' perception of reality can't actually be trusted.

Any more than, say, the Imperium's, or the Tau's, or Chaos?

No one's perception of reality in 40k can technically be "trusted", especially when it comes to the Warp.

I'd say the idea that other species are aware of Four make their existence a bit less doubtful than the racial legends of the Orks and Eldar. For all we know, those pantheons might be dim memories of the Old Ones.

Manchu wrote:It doesn't matter one way or another. The only traitors who don't subscribe to the Imperial Truth (the Word Bearers) didn't subscribe to it before their betrayal. I don't see Horus, Angron, Perturabo, Fulgrim, Magnus, Curze, Mortarion, or Alpahrius and Omegon worshiping Chaos. It doesn't seem like these guys started believing in gods and daemons in a religious sense after falling. So I guess the Imperial Truth is actually pretty meaningless one way or the other.

They all fell in line behind Horus. He is the one who made the Heresy happen. Only conflict with Angron and Lorgar was inevitable. Horus was shown the future of an Imperium under the Ecclesiarchal faith and repulsed by that then became the head of one of the first Anti-Imperial-Cult cults. An anti-Imperial-Cult Cult that actually predated the Imperial Cult and whose evilness help develope and solidify the Imperial cult. Y'know, with the irony again.

He was still an atheist. As you said, he acted in revulsion against a distortion of the Imperial Truth. Rather than saving the galaxy, the so-called Imperial Truth played a pivotal role in the Horus Heresy.

Manchu wrote:He was still an atheist. As you said, he acted in revulsion against a distortion of the Imperial Truth. Rather than saving the galaxy, the so-called Imperial Truth played a pivotal role in the Horus Heresy.

That doesn't make any sense. The Imperial Truth only played a role in his decision in that there was a lack of it. It was the Ecclesiarchal Imperium that infuriated him.

Yeah -- in other words, his devotion to the Imperial Truth is what motivated him to betray the Emperor.

yourself.

Manchu wrote:Yeah -- in other words, his devotion to the Imperial Truth is what motivated him to betray the Emperor.

yourself.

I find that a weird way of looking at it. It was the introduction of the religon that actually caused the problem.
Of course what actually caused the problem was the Chaos Gods. The biggest mistake the Emperor ever made was the fact The Imperial Truth was "truthy" enough. He hid the true nature of the warp from those who should be his closest confidants: The Primarchs. He had explained who and what the four "Gods" are matter-of-factly (extradimensional aliens) much of this would have been avoided. The Primarchs would have been more prepared to combat them and their revelation wouldn't make the Emperor appear as a liar or ignorant.

Horus was so committed to the Imperial Truth that he decided to betray the Emperor when some weird alien from another dimension that he knew nothing about told him that the Emperor would betray the Imperial Truth.

Simply put: it wasn't giving up on the Imperial Truth that started the Heresy. Quite the reverse.

Manchu wrote:Horus was so committed to the Imperial Truth that he decided to betray the Emperor when some weird alien from another dimension that he knew nothing about told him that the Emperor would betray the Imperial Truth.

Simply put: it wasn't giving up on the Imperial Truth that started the Heresy. Quite the reverse.

Eh, it was more like the idea of people venerating The Emperor as a god made him sick, not a hardline dedication to atheism. If anyone was going to be worshipped it was him.

I didn't see that in the text. The text has him aghast that the Emperor lied to them about the Great Crusade and how all their effort was just to install the Emperor as some kind of hypocritical god.

Like I said, only Lorgar worshiped the Four -- but he had never been a believer in the Imperial Truth anyhow. In fact, Lorgar didn't fall because he believed in the Emperor. He fell because he stopped believing in the Emperor.

Meanwhile, the SoB are proof that faith actually protects against the Warp rather than helping it.

Manchu wrote:I didn't see that in the text. The text has him aghast that the Emperor lied to them about the Great Crusade and how all their effort was just to install the Emperor as some kind of hypocritical god.

Like I said, only Lorgar worshiped the Four -- but he had never been a believer in the Imperial Truth anyhow. In fact, Lorgar didn't fall because he believed in the Emperor. He fell because he stopped believing in the Emperor.

Meanwhile, the SoB are proof that faith actually protects against the Warp rather than helping it.

Fine, but it is still the outrage at the hypocrisy (and it was a false hypocrisy) that drove it.

The SoB are proof in what way? The way Orks draw upon the power of Gork & Mork to WAAAGH! it up?

The SoB are resistant to Chaos because of their faith.

Manchu wrote:The SoB are resistant to Chaos because of their faith.

Yes, but it's always more complicated than that. Their brutal application of their dogma causes them to burn out mutant ghettos and persecute people who don't subsribe to their Faith. These disenfranchised people usually end up in the arms of Chaos and their suffering fuels the Dark Gods too.

That's immaterial to the point at hand: Chaos has significantly less power over SoB than other humans (apparently including GK) and the only difference between SoB and other humans is their fanatical religious outlook. Ergo, faith is a shield against Chaos. OP seems to claim here that faith somehow powers the Ruinous Powers. And he also claims that the Emperor wanted to stop the Four by eliminating faith from human experience. But given the example of the Sisters, it seems like faith is actually what staves off the Chaos Gods. And lo and behold, the Horus Heresy happened and the Ecclesiarchy arose to promote just that ... almost as if by plan ...

Manchu wrote:That's immaterial to the point at hand: Chaos has significantly less power over SoB than other humans (apparently including GK) and the only difference between SoB and other humans is their fanatical religious outlook. Ergo, faith is a shield against Chaos. OP seems to claim here that faith somehow powers the Ruinous Powers. And he also claims that the Emperor wanted to stop the Four by eliminating faith from human experience. But given the example of the Sisters, it seems like faith is actually what staves off the Chaos Gods. And lo and behold, the Horus Heresy happened and the Ecclesiarchy arose to promote just that ... almost as if by plan ...

That is exactly the point at hand. Their faith is a shield against chaos and helps in a small picture but also persecutes people whose pain and suffering fuel Chaos in the big picture. Millions of people are hunted down like dogs so the Sisters can get an invul save. Which one do the dark gods really care more about?

Manchu wrote:The SoB are resistant to Chaos because of their faith.

Which makes them a complete mockery of the Fallen Emperor's ideals and dreams.

KamikazeCanuck wrote:Their faith is a shield against chaos and helps in a small picture but also persecutes people whose pain and suffering fuel Chaos in the big picture.

No, those are two different points.

(1) The Sisters' faith shields them from Chaos.

(2) Human suffering strengthens Chaos.

The first point has lots to support it in the fluff. And this is the point that we were talking about.

The second point actually doesn't have much support in fluff or it's at least not as big of a deal as you seem to be making it. Think about it: there are a million worlds in the Imperium. The overwhelming majority of them are centers for human suffering on a massive scale. And yet, daemonic incursions are pretty rare. Also, daemons might come to a world and kill millions and yet they are beaten back by a hundred or so GK. One would think they'd be awfully strong thanks to all that regular suffering and then the particular suffering they themselves inflict.

So:

- the faith of one Sister makes her extremely resistant to Chaos

- the death of millions doesn't strengthen daemons enough that they can defeat GK

Even if we were formerly talking about the second point, it seems clear that the strength that Sisters derive from their faith is quite a bit more potent than the strength that daemons derive from suffering.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

Tadashi wrote:Which makes them a complete mockery of the Fallen Emperor's ideals and dreams.

That's what Horus told himself so he could sleep at night.

Manchu wrote:

Tadashi wrote:Which makes them a complete mockery of the Fallen Emperor's ideals and dreams.

That's what Horus told himself so he could sleep at night.

Unlikely. In the impossible event of the Emperor's return, he's going to be very angry. After a major butt-kicking session for any eminences on Terra, the Convents and Palaces of the Ecclesiarchy and the Inquisition will go the same way as Monarchia. The Sisters will be forced to kneel on the ashes of their idols ala Word Bearers by the power of the Empeor and made to renounce his divinity and acknowledge his humanity.

The Emperor gave a direct okay to the Sisters and continually blesses them with His miracles and His Living Saints. I'm fairly certain he isn't gonna be angry with them.

Manchu wrote:I'd say the idea that other species are aware of Four make their existence a bit less doubtful than the racial legends of the Orks and Eldar. For all we know, those pantheons might be dim memories of the Old Ones.

Humans are aware of Gork and Mork. As, very likely, are Eldar.

@Manchu: I've noticed through our many conversations that you like your fiction rather black & white. Straight up good vs. evil. I like that sometimes but I appreciate a little complication in my conflicts. Some nuance and irony. I just don't see the never ending war between The Imperium and Chaos as good vs. evil. Chaos is undoubtably evil but the side it's representing is, of course, chaos. The Imperium on the other hand is order and there is no length it will not go to, nothing it won't do to instill that order. Don't get me wrong, they're definately not as evil as Chaos but that is not what the core of the conflict is.

My point is Daemons are negative emotions made manifest. That is often stated in the background. If The Imperium fosters a lot of suffering then it is contributing to the Dark Gods power. You're making it sound like the warp is just some other planet with a standing army. The warp beings are completely dependent on real space for sustaneance. Khorne is the god of war and murder. He can not survive unless there is war and murder. Nurgle the god of disease and decay. He needs things to decay to thrive.
If the galaxy could magically be turned into some perfect utopia then The Pantheon would be near death if not just dead.

KamikazeCanuck wrote:My point is Daemons are negative emotions made manifest. That is often stated in the background. If The Imperium fosters a lot of suffering then it is contributing to the Dark Gods power. You're making it sound like the warp is just some other planet with a standing army. The warp beings are completely dependent on real space for sustaneance. Khorne is the god of war and murder. He can not survive unless there is war and murder. Nurgle the god of disease and decay. He needs things to decay to thrive.
If the galaxy could magically be turned into some perfect utopia then The Pantheon would be near death if not just dead.

I would dispute part of that statement just a little. Daemons are not negative emotions made manifest rather, negative emotions allow deamons to manifest in this/our reality. The deamons and Gods of the warp exist whether or not someone believes in them. Utopia as you put it would not kill them, just stop their ability to emerge into our reality. Which, from our POV, would make it appear that The Pantheon is dead/dying.

I think that Manchu is right in his assertion that the warp/chaos would exist regardless.

Cheers

Andrew

We know for a fact in the fluff of 40k that the Eldar gods were not just myths and legends but actually were real. Evidence is the fact that when Slaanesh shattered Khaela Mensha Khaine into many different pieces, those pieces came to rest on the many different craftworlds through out the galaxy. If the eldar gods were only a myth, then this would never have happened.

AndrewC wrote:

KamikazeCanuck wrote:My point is Daemons are negative emotions made manifest. That is often stated in the background. If The Imperium fosters a lot of suffering then it is contributing to the Dark Gods power. You're making it sound like the warp is just some other planet with a standing army. The warp beings are completely dependent on real space for sustaneance. Khorne is the god of war and murder. He can not survive unless there is war and murder. Nurgle the god of disease and decay. He needs things to decay to thrive.
If the galaxy could magically be turned into some perfect utopia then The Pantheon would be near death if not just dead.

I would dispute part of that statement just a little. Daemons are not negative emotions made manifest rather, negative emotions allow deamons to manifest in this/our reality. The deamons and Gods of the warp exist whether or not someone believes in them. Utopia as you put it would not kill them, just stop their ability to emerge into our reality. Which, from our POV, would make it appear that The Pantheon is dead/dying.

I think that Manchu is right in his assertion that the warp/chaos would exist regardless.

Cheers

Andrew

No, they really are. Slaneesh was created by the emotions of the Eldar. They made him. He has a birth date: M29. He even had a gestation. He is basically an Eldar god.

No. That is how it seems in realspace terms. The thing mortals call Slaanesh has no beginning or end in the Warp. At the very best, the so-called "birth" was just the moment in which the decadence of the Eldar allowed Slaanesh to catastrophically interfere in the Materium. I have had to correct a lot of people on this over the last two weeks. Codex: Chaos Daemons makes this clear.

As for black and white fluff, I don't think you understand what I am actually saying. And you seem to be the one using a binary, substituting chaos and order for good and evil. No part of anything I have posted about the Sisters indicates that they are "good." The power their faith has against the daemonic is not related to them being "good" at all. I can't understand where you are getting this from; it certainly isn't my posts.

In any case, many mortal beings have a psychic presence in the Warp. Strong emotions magnify that presence as does use of psychic powers or having the psyker mutation. Dembski-Bowden described it in Cadian Blood as something like lights: every human "soul" is a dim light in the warp. An untrained psyker using his powers for the first time is a much brighter light. The astropathic choir is a light so bright that it shines 50,000 light years in all directions from Terra. The last throes of the ancient Eldar empire must have been similarly of bonfire magnitude.

The light attracts daemons proportionate to the strength of a given light. Where emotions are kindled high, the psychic resonance light of mortals shines brighter. The brighter the light, the more powerful are the daemons who take note -- all the way up to one of the Four themselves, or all of them in the case of the Emperor. But this metaphorical light doesn't seem to merely attract the daemons. It seems that it can also weaken whatever separates real space from the Immaterium so that daemons can pass through. This is why Chaos Cultists, especially under the auspices of the Word Bearers, perform cruel rituals on a vast scale: to draw the attention of the Dark Gods and invite a daemonic incursion into real space.

And yet, all the billions of lives' worth of suffering in any given hive city on any given Imperial world doesn't seem to attract regular daemonic incursions. The idea that any and all human emotion feeds and strengthens daemons and the Ruinous Powers is therefore obviously oversimplistic. Yes, there is some relationship. How exactly it works, however, remains mysterious. One thing that is clear is that the Chaos Gods do not rely on mortals for their existence. The Warp is Chaos; Chaos is the Warp. The extinction of beings capable of emotion would not mean the end of Chaos any more than it would mean the end of real space itself.

I think there are a few things being overlooked.

First, chaos didn't start being aggressive with the material universe after the Imperial Truth was established. Quite the opposite. Humanity started evolving again: into psykers.

Psykers are one of the entry points daemons have to this realm. Once the number of "doorways" started expanding, more of them could come through.

Three guesses as to the major cause of Old Night....

The Emperor had to get control of humanity in order to stop chaos from coming in. To do that he made a deal with those very powers to create the Primarchs. Which is the duplicity they have accused the Emperor of. He used the help of chaos to create the very army designed to bring humanity back together under a banner that would forgo a belief in those very same beings...

Further by eliminating the alien and forging humanity into a single direction, a lot of powerful negative emotional power would be denied to the warp.

He was also trying to buy time to repair sections of the webway so that humans could travel safely without warp technology.

The Emperor has been fighting chaos since day 1. He needed humanity to stop believing in them and to stop providing power to that realm.

Unfortunately, things didn't quite work out the way he wanted and he had to go to plan B: godhood.

Quite simple really.

There is absolutely no evidence in the fluff that "believing" in the Chaos Gods strengthens them.

Manchu wrote:There is absolutely no evidence in the fluff that "believing" in the Chaos Gods strengthens them.

It's impossible to be a true believer of something without having an emotional attachment to it. Get rid of faith in "gods" and you remove a large emotional crutch.

True, there is no evidence that actual belief in their existence affects their power, but there is a lot of evidence that emotions (especially negative, and especially especially those emotions directly connected to the Power in question) is what feeds them, gives them form, and gives them strength. It's described very clearly in literally all of the text on page 8 of the CSM codex. It's not just any emotions (like the emotional attachment to a religion), but those emotional echoes specific to the god in question.

Now, I don't know about the Daemons codex (again, it's been a while since I read it), but it's fairly widely-accepted that Slaanesh was born (as opposed to just touching the material realm) in M29. His emotional connection was always there, but he only gained sentience as a true Power at the Fall of the Eldar, from all their lusts and desires and hedonism.

It was also stated in Lost and the Damned that Khorne, Tzeentch and Nurgle awakened to full consciousness at the end of the Middle Ages (lots of change, bloodshed, and plague in a species very connected to the Warp). This may have been retconned, but I assume we can still run with it if nothing explicitly contradictory has been published?

Chaos is the Warp, and the Warp is Chaos and all that, it's true, and these emotions have been present and feeding into the Warp long before that, but they only got powerful and intense enough to truly awaken into a sentient Warp Entity at those dates.

Summing up the Imperial Truth would be this statement from the Fallen Emperor:

"Only in the light can it achieve its full potential. Humanity is the same, and only when the suffocating shadows of a religion that teaches us not to question is gone from this world will we see its true brilliance."

- The Last Church on Terra

Elector wrote:
Now, I don't know about the Daemons codex (again, it's been a while since I read it), but it's fairly widely-accepted that Slaanesh was born (as opposed to just touching the material realm) in M29. His emotional connection was always there, but he only gained sentience as a true Power at the Fall of the Eldar, from all their lusts and desires and hedonism.

It was also stated in Lost and the Damned that Khorne, Tzeentch and Nurgle awakened to full consciousness at the end of the Middle Ages (lots of change, bloodshed, and plague in a species very connected to the Warp). This may have been retconned, but I assume we can still run with it if nothing explicitly contradictory has been published?

You are right and from the Eldar perspective and Mankinds this is true, but time flows differently in the warp and Slaanesh has never and always been.

Oh dang, that's true, the Warp really messes with time. Alright, fair enough.

My point was actually more that it has been stated repeatedly that the Chaos Gods derive almost all of their power from the negative emotions they are connected to. And souls.

Nope, that's still not the whole picture. That's just what it looks like to real space beings. If the Four, in some sense or another, have always and never existed then they obviously do not depend on real space beings for their existence or non-existence.

The idea that they have always existed and never existed is only in that time in the Warp doesn't flow like it does in the material universe. Their point of awakening by Warp-reckoning is impossible to pinpoint, so they become both eternal and finite.

It has, however, been stated regularly that their connection to the material realm, and their formation into that of a conscious Power is due to the concentration of intense negative emotion so powerful it affects the Warp's connection to that emotion, changing from a vortex of that emotional psychic energy to a sentient warp entity. I figure that there have always been beings with some form of psychic link to the Warp, with negative emotions, somewhat feeding and growing. These Four are linked to what some could call the most potent of the negative emotions, and have always existed, technically, but only truly awakened into a psychic entity (as opposed to a slurry of emotion) when the emotion got powerful enough.

Ergo, they have always existed technically, but only as a collection of minor emotional psychic energy, and only became gods when that energy got powerful enough. Who's to say there haven't always been beings who had a connection to the Warp and harbored some forms of negative emotion?

Think of the definition of "eternal." Now think about whether it is possible to "become" eternal.

So it's probably not a good idea to think of the Chaos Gods as discrete actors -- they're not characters like Kharn or the Emperor or Caiphas Cain. We really have no idea how they experience existence. Our names for them were made by us. Our conception of them was made by us. Whether or not we even have the capacity to comprehensively understand their being is questionable -- and, in my opinion, extremely unlikely. Everything that we say about them is only pseudo-scientific because their existence does not fit into the categories upon which material investigation of the real universe is premised. In fact, our conceptual tools for understanding them are so weak that what we do know about them is actually expressed as mythology. (For example, the GK using hexagrammatical wards, etc.)

It's certainly possible for the idea of eternal to change if the definition of time (as it pertains to the Warp) changes, no? (besides, the 'become' part of that argument was syntax. I meant only that due to the nature of time in the Warp, they can be considered both eternal and finite)

And I agree that we would not be able grasp their existence, because due to the nature of them, of the Chaos, and the Warp, it would shatter our minds. It's beyond our comprehension.

If they weren't fictional, and if canonical fluff wasn't regularly describing their nature. Like in codexes, where what they feed on, an analogy of the nature of the Warp, and what gives them power is literally described in a few paragraphs.

By the setting's reckoning, Chaos is not understandable, and how it operates with regards to its needs is impossible to know. But by our reckoning? Chaos is described at length in various books. They might not be fully described (it would ruin the magic, as how can we believe they are beyond our minds' comprehension and then have it described to us?) but the key parts to this debate have been stated very explicitly.

Elector wrote: but the key parts to this debate have been stated very explicitly.

And then explicitly contradicted. Please see Codex: Chaos Daemons. This is the point of Chaos -- you can't pin it down. There's some kind of connection between the Warp and real space but it's not something we can exactly express. If it was as simple as you are implying, we wouldn't even know of any Chaos God but Khorne considering that "there is only war."

Alright, I concede your point, I haven't read the Chaos Daemons codex nearly enough to know.

I really did think that the Gods fed off emotions though...

Elector wrote:I really did think that the Gods fed off emotions though...

Well, you're not wrong, they definitely do "feed" off of emotions -- just not in the sense of how we eat food.

What do you mean?

I mean that, in the warp, they are drawn to the psychic resonance of real space experiences. And, in real space, they are strengthened by these same experiences. (For example, sacrificing people to keep daemons from slipping back into the Warp.) But they cannot "starve to death" in the absence of mortal emotions. Nor can they overcome one another in strength simply because some thing or another is going on in real space (like a 10,000-year war).

Oh, okay, that makes a lot of sense now. Alright, I have no problems with that, thanks for the explanation!

No prob. The published fluff doesn't make it easy on us.

It doesn't matter that the Warp has non-existant laws of space-time. Realspace does. It's subject to chronology. It's flat out stated that Slaneesh is the youngest and Khorne is the oldest. First a series of events happened in realspace that caused the creation of a lifeform that then within the imaterium's non-chronological timeframe claimed he's always been around. The main point is that the first event was still happened in Realspace where time does matter.

So basically, you are reiterating the same point I have been making: Slaanesh's "birth" is really just the first time that mortals inhabiting the Milky Way encountered the thing they call Slaanesh.

Manchu wrote:So basically, you are reiterating the same point I have been making: Slaanesh's "birth" is really just the first time that mortals inhabiting the Milky Way encountered the thing they call Slaanesh.

No, I'm saying that there's a clear chronology:

1) Eldar have a bunch of orgies
2) Slaneesh starts to gestate causing a bunch of warp storms that cut of most human worlds from each other
3) Slaneesh's birth blows up the Galaxy.
4) Time's is kinda wierd in the warp and stuff.

4 does not nullify 1-3. In fact it's completely pointless because they don't have time anyway so really only realspace events matter.

KamikazeCanuck wrote:In fact it's completely pointless because they don't have time anyway so really only realspace events matter.

By insisting on trying to understand the Immaterium only in terms of the Materium, you are setting yourself up for failure.

Manchu wrote:

KamikazeCanuck wrote:In fact it's completely pointless because they don't have time anyway so really only realspace events matter.

By insisting on trying to understand the Immaterium only in terms of the Materium, you are setting yourself up for failure.

On the contrary, I'm separating them completely. If event's 1-3 happen in a left-to-right-way and 4 then went right and then left and up and down the point is 1-3 still happened first. The Dark Gods are not time travelling supervillians who use their time travelling super powers to thwart the Imperium at ever turn before it even happens. In fact I don't think there's a single mention of the Big 4 ever going back in time to do anything.

Manchu wrote:

KamikazeCanuck wrote:In fact it's completely pointless because they don't have time anyway so really only realspace events matter.

By insisting on trying to understand the Immaterium only in terms of the Materium, you are setting yourself up for failure.

If realspace events don't matter, cutting off realspace from the Warp as the oldcrons planned and the newcrons might be planning would have been meaningless.

KamikazeCanuck wrote:

Manchu wrote:

KamikazeCanuck wrote:In fact it's completely pointless because they don't have time anyway so really only realspace events matter.

By insisting on trying to understand the Immaterium only in terms of the Materium, you are setting yourself up for failure.

On the contrary, I'm separating them completely. If event's 1-3 happen in a left-to-right-way and 4 then went right and then left and up and down the point is 1-3 still happened first. The Dark Gods are not time travelling supervillians who use their time travelling super powers to thwart the Imperium at ever turn before it even happens. In fact I don't think there's a single mention of the Big 4 ever going back in time to do anything.

They can't. Because time DOES exist in the Warp, just not in the ordered fashion it exists in reality.

If time is not ordered then it is not time. It makes sense to say that Slaanesh did not intervene in events in the Milky Way before M29. It does not make sense to say that Slaanesh did not exist before M29, except from a very narrow point of view that basically excludes understanding Slaanesh, the Warp, and the other Chaos Gods.

Manchu wrote:If time is not ordered then it is not time. It makes sense to say that Slaanesh did not intervene in events in the Milky Way before M29. It does not make sense to say that Slaanesh did not exist before M29, except from a very narrow point of view that basically excludes understanding Slaanesh, the Warp, and the other Chaos Gods.

Time in the Warp could be described as an hourglass, all the tiny grains of sand moving towards a single end, but can an infinitely varied route to get there. The 'gods' or even Chaos per se did not exist at all before the War in Heaven. Back then, the Immaterium was calm and peaceful, and while predators lived in the Warp, they were not the malevolent sentient 'daemons' of the present. It was only during the War in Heaven did the Immaterium get twisted into Warp, and 'gods' and 'daemons' came into existence.

Nope. Chaos is the Warp; the Warp is Chaos.

Manchu wrote:Nope. Chaos is the Warp; the Warp is Chaos.

Which absolutely contradicts all the fluff on the War in Heaven.

No it doesn't. Why do you think the Old Ones invented the Webway in the first place?

And you want to get down to the bottom line it's the fact the people of the Milky Way did not have to contend with the problem of Slaneesh consuming their souls before the year ~29,990AD. Fancy warp time or not. Just as people at other unspecified dates didn't have to deal with Tzeentch and Nurgle.

Going all the way back, let's not forget these "gods" were created unintentionally by the Old Ones. Once upon a time the warp didn't suck. It was calm, but the Old Ones actually invented psychic powers as weapon to use against the C'tan because the Necrontyr were being jerks. The warp was essentialy weaponized by the Old Ones and when it was the created races emotions (and beliefs!) started to affect it. That's when the the energies started to coalesce into sentient beings.

brief summary: http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Old_ones

Edit: quasi-ninja'd

Manchu wrote:No it doesn't. Why do you think the Old Ones invented the Webway in the first place?

FTL travel that was faster and more reliable than Warp jumping? In fact, the reason the Eldar weren't created until the situation turned desperate was because the Old Ones feared that violent psychic races would have a catastrophic effect on balance of the Warp. They were right. It was only after the Eldar turned the tide with their psychic powers did 'daemons' come into existence and the Warp was reduced into a nightmarish mire.

Chaos is most definitely NOT the warp. The Warp is "universal" as seen with the warp being calm at the fringes and outside our galaxy. Chaos is a localized threat, sure, there is the chance that another galaxy has their own version of chaos but it is definitely not the chaos that is localized in our galaxy. Also, it is stated in the Oldcron codex (and has not been countered or rendered obsolete by any of the new fluff so don't you dare use that argument), that the Old Ones, in their desperation to create races capable of countering the Necrons and the C'tan, created Chaos from all the turbulence in the Warp they and their warp-tuned spawn created. Remember, FLUFF FACT: The Warp was a very calm, peaceful, and harmonious place prior to the War in Heaven. It was not until the War that the area of the Warp parallel to our galaxy became a chaotic place which, you hopefully guessed it, birthed Chaos.

And cutting off our galaxy does starve out chaos. Ever read the fluff about the necron pylons (i prefer obelisks, gets too confusing with the Necron Pylons from FW otherwise)? The C'tan were constructing those pylons to a)cut our galaxy off from the Warp, b) starve out the gods in the Warp effectively rendering them impotent (sucks for Slaanesh ). And that fluff has yet to be countered/rendered obsolete.

KP- winning

King Pariah wrote:
And cutting off our galaxy does starve out chaos. Ever read the fluff about the necron pylons (i prefer obelisks, gets too confusing with the Necron Pylons from FW otherwise)? The C'tan were constructing those pylons to a)cut our galaxy off from the Warp, b) starve out the gods in the Warp effectively rendering them impotent (sucks for Slaanesh ). And that fluff has yet to be countered/rendered obsolete.

Weren't one of the three goals of the Star Gods in the oldcron codex the destruction of Chaos?

KP- winning

lol.

Not just chaos but every warp spawned "god"

And you know damn well I am lol

Tadashi wrote: more reliable than Warp jumping

Wonder why ...

Also, I just read the pages of Necron fluff quoted by Lexicanum and they do not support your points (or theirs). On page 26, it is said that the warp magicks of the young races disturbed the Warp so that entities in the Warp became predacious towards real space. In other words, exactly what I have been saying all along.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

King Pariah wrote:Chaos is most definitely NOT the warp.

Refuted by explicit reference: C:CD 4E p6

Manchu wrote:

Tadashi wrote: more reliable than Warp jumping

Wonder why ...

Also, I just read the pages of Necron fluff quoted by Lexicanum and they do not support your points (or theirs). On page 26, it is said that the warp magicks of the young races disturbed the Warp so that entities in the Warp became predacious towards real space. In other words, exactly what I have been saying all along.

No, they only became that way because of the disruptions caused by the War in Heaven. 'Gods' and 'daemons' did not exist until the War in Heaven's final, violent, phases.

King Pariah wrote:Chaos is most definitely NOT the warp.

Refuted by explicit reference: C:CD 4E p6

Tadashi wrote:'Gods' and 'daemons' did not exist until the War in Heaven's final, violent, phases.

Go read the book. Page 26: "Older warp entities became terrifying predators ..."

Then the existence of the Emperor (before his death), the Ork Gods, and perhaps the Eldar Gods are rendered moot.

Not even close.

Manchu wrote:

Tadashi wrote:'Gods' and 'daemons' did not exist until the War in Heaven's final, violent, phases.

Go read the book. Page 26: "Older warp entities became terrifying predators ..."

Exactly. They 'became' - only the disruptions in the Warp caused by the material universe made them that way.

Then the existence of the Emperor (before his death), the Ork Gods, and perhaps the Eldar Gods are rendered moot.

Not even close.

Why not? If all the Warp is Chaos, then the shamans shouldn't have succeeded in creating their collective reincarnation. Why would Chaos allow something more powerful than itself manifest in the form of the Ork Gods? Why gods of order like the Eldar Gods exist at all?

Here's a possible explanation: with enough psychic power, the Warp energies could be manipulated, right? Psykers do so all the time, albeit on a massively smaller scale, so why couldn't warp entities like the Eldar Gods and shamans (collectively the, or one of the, most powerful psykers ever?)

Elector wrote:Here's a possible explanation: with enough psychic power, the Warp energies could be manipulated, right? Psykers do so all the time, albeit on a massively smaller scale, so why couldn't warp entities like the Eldar Gods and shamans (collectively the, or one of the, most powerful psykers ever?)

Still doesn't explain how Gork and Mork could exist if all the Warp is Chaos. Orks aren't like other psykers. They don't draw on the Warp, they generate their own latent psychic field.

True, but their emotions do feed into the Warp (as does any sentient creature's). Given how orks outnumber just about every other species (except maybe the Tyranids), their emotions and traits would feed into a very powerful couple of entities.

(we have covered that Warp Entities do get stronger from emotions, even if they do not need it I survive)

Tadashi wrote:

King Pariah wrote:
And cutting off our galaxy does starve out chaos. Ever read the fluff about the necron pylons (i prefer obelisks, gets too confusing with the Necron Pylons from FW otherwise)? The C'tan were constructing those pylons to a)cut our galaxy off from the Warp, b) starve out the gods in the Warp effectively rendering them impotent (sucks for Slaanesh ). And that fluff has yet to be countered/rendered obsolete.

Weren't one of the three goals of the Star Gods in the oldcron codex the destruction of Chaos?

KP- winning

lol.

Now, now, no one wins when a giant nerd war about toy soldiers breaks out. We're all losers...

KamikazeCanuck wrote:We're all losers...

And proud of it!

Manchu wrote:

KamikazeCanuck wrote:We're all losers...

And proud of it!

Aye, that's the one thing we can all agree on!

Tadashi wrote:

Manchu wrote:

Tadashi wrote:'Gods' and 'daemons' did not exist until the War in Heaven's final, violent, phases.

Go read the book. Page 26: "Older warp entities became terrifying predators ..."

Exactly. They 'became' - only the disruptions in the Warp caused by the material universe made them that way.

Liber Chaotica, I think it's the Slaanesh section, mentions that during the War in Heaven the Eldar summoned their Gods to assist them and along with them came other Warp Entities, after the war they would never summon their Gods the same way again to prevent this from happening. Basically, when they summoned their gods, Daemons broke through as well. Whether they were Daemons of the big four or not isn't told. But think on this if the Eldar Gods exist, why not the Chaos Gods? Khaine is quite possibly a distant relative of Khorne, in the early fluff Khorne fought with Slaanesh during the fall because Khaine

When Kaela Mensha Khaine, the Bloody Handed God of the Eldar, fought with Slaanesh the Lord of Pleasure, he was quickly overwhelmed and his energy captured by the newborn God. For the Bloody Handed God was as much a part of Slaanesh as of Khorne - being a product of that part of the Eldar nature which finds gratification in murder and pleasure in bloody violence. Khorne the Blood God, the Patron of War, Murder and Battle, roared with rage to discover one of his own taken from him in this way.

It's a head fnarp basically, they haven't existed yet they always have, so even though we say that they came into being during the middle ages they were in fact always there and never there

Tadashi wrote:

Manchu wrote:

Tadashi wrote:Then the existence of the Emperor (before his death), the Ork Gods, and perhaps the Eldar Gods are rendered moot.

Not even close.

Why not? If all the Warp is Chaos, then the shamans shouldn't have succeeded in creating their collective reincarnation. Why would Chaos allow something more powerful than itself manifest in the form of the Ork Gods? Why gods of order like the Eldar Gods exist at all?

They don't have much choice in the matter I guess, emotions formed them and the emotions of other races will give birth to other things. The Shamans recognised the threat in the Chaos Gods and made the sacrifice themselves to bring about the life of the Emperor. It's much like Psykers and Ships using the Warp, they can do it using their own will, but woe betide should you attract the attentions of the predators in the warp.

Tadashi wrote:

Manchu wrote:

KamikazeCanuck wrote:We're all losers...

And proud of it!

Aye, that's the one thing we can all agree on!

Indeed

Pilau Rice wrote:

When Kaela Mensha Khaine, the Bloody Handed God of the Eldar, fought with Slaanesh the Lord of Pleasure, he was quickly overwhelmed and his energy captured by the newborn God. For the Bloody Handed God was as much a part of Slaanesh as of Khorne - being a product of that part of the Eldar nature which finds gratification in murder and pleasure in bloody violence. Khorne the Blood God, the Patron of War, Murder and Battle, roared with rage to discover one of his own taken from him in this way.

It's a head fnarp basically, they haven't existed yet they always have, so even though we say that they came into being during the middle ages they were in fact always there and never there

Which proves my belief that the Powers of Chaos were equal or stronger than the Eldar Gods.

Tadashi wrote:

Manchu wrote:

Tadashi wrote:Then the existence of the Emperor (before his death), the Ork Gods, and perhaps the Eldar Gods are rendered moot.

Not even close.

Why not? If all the Warp is Chaos, then the shamans shouldn't have succeeded in creating their collective reincarnation. Why would Chaos allow something more powerful than itself manifest in the form of the Ork Gods? Why gods of order like the Eldar Gods exist at all?

They don't have much choice in the matter I guess, emotions formed them and the emotions of other races will give birth to other things. The Shamans recognised the threat in the Chaos Gods and made the sacrifice themselves to bring about the life of the Emperor. It's much like Psykers and Ships using the Warp, they can do it using their own will, but woe betide should you attract the attentions of the predators in the warp.

Brother Thomas wrote:The emperor is empowered by believers. The Chaos gods are not powered by believers, but evil and corruption via humans and adhumans

Would like to point out that the Emperor is powered by the hope of his beleivers, not the beleif itself, IMO

brentyboi wrote:

Brother Thomas wrote:The emperor is empowered by believers. The Chaos gods are not powered by believers, but evil and corruption via humans and adhumans

Would like to point out that the Emperor is powered by the hope of his beleivers, not the beleif itself, IMO

The God-Emperor is...an incomplete 'god' in the Warp. The Emperor died in the Horus Heresy.

Tadashi wrote:
My point was that Manchu was wrong that the whole Warp is Chaos, which would the Powers who each represent an aspect of Chaos, have complete control over it. Obviously, they don't, as the shamans could fuse their souls to create the Emperor, and the Orks believed Gork and Mork into existence, and the Eldar might have done the same during the War in Heaven.

He's not wrong, it's a direct quote from Codex: Chaos Daemons.

During the Heresy according to Collected Visions the Chaos Gods calmed the Warp or made the Warp unstable at a whim, this isn't so apparent in the actual Heresy series though, as there is a lot of new Tech being mentioned to do stuff like this.

It is hard to explain though and I am not sure anyone can, I get what you are saying. I think you are being to restrictive in your thinking perhaps. Maybe if the sentence was along the lines of Chaos is made of the stuff of the warp, but the warp is Chaos? Basically the Warp is a chaotic place, where there is no time or no up or down, and Chaos, the actual denizens are made of the stuff of the Warp, they share an affinity with each other

Yes, it is hard to explain ...

Pilau Rice wrote:


It is hard to explain though and I am not sure anyone can, I get what you are saying. I think you are being to restrictive in your thinking. Perhaps if the sentence was along the lines of Chaos is made of the stuff of the warp, but the warp is Chaos? Basically the Warp is a chaotic place, where there is no time or no up or down, and Chaos, the actual denizens are made of the stuff of the Warp

Yes, it is hard to explain ...

I think I've got it. The Warp is a chaotic place, but the 'Chaos' represented by the Four Powers do not represent the Warp as a whole, nor do they have complete control over it. This is why the Orks and maybe Eldar were able to 'believe' their 'gods' into existence, and how the shamans could create the Emperor. On a lesser level, this allows trained psykers of any race to use the Warp with relative safety.

Tadashi wrote:

Pilau Rice wrote:


It is hard to explain though and I am not sure anyone can, I get what you are saying. I think you are being to restrictive in your thinking. Perhaps if the sentence was along the lines of Chaos is made of the stuff of the warp, but the warp is Chaos? Basically the Warp is a chaotic place, where there is no time or no up or down, and Chaos, the actual denizens are made of the stuff of the Warp

Yes, it is hard to explain ...

I think I've got it. The Warp is a chaotic place, but the 'Chaos' represented by the Four Powers do not represent the Warp as a whole, nor do they have complete control over it. This is why the Orks and maybe Eldar were able to 'believe' their 'gods' into existence, and how the shamans could create the Emperor. On a lesser level, this allows trained psykers of any race to use the Warp with relative safety.

I would say that you pretty much have it, but then I might be wrong, I don't think we are supposed to be able to comprehend the warp at all. The Warp is also a big place, and regardless of how ever present the Chaos Gods are there is always a distraction, possibly one of the other Gods has an interest of a lesser God forming to lend assistance to it's cause for a while, keeping it hidden from its brothers or maybe they are to heavily involved in the Great Game at one time.

Gork and Mork are just to stubborn to accept what the Chaos Gods say and just force their way through, the same way as the Orks do. I think the Orks uniqueness is what allows these two to exist. With the Emperor it was a collective conscious sacrifice that bought his existence about, he remembers each of his past lifes.

We really don't know what the Eldar and Ork "gods" are. I'm not going to even touch on the subject of Gork and Mork because there is nothing even remotely trustworthy written about them. As for the Eldar Gods, they could be the Eldar's dim memory of their creators, the Old Ones. Or perhaps they are the Eldar's own original ancestors -- the ones closest to the Old Ones and therefore the most powerful Eldar psykers to ever exist (similar to the Emperor). Nothing published explicitly indicates that they are necessarily "gods" in the sense of the Ruinous Powers.

Manchu wrote:We really don't know what the Eldar and Ork "gods" are. I'm not going to even touch on the subject of Gork and Mork because there is nothing even remotely trustworthy written about them.

That's a rather nonsensical thing to say.

IF you think codices making unequivocal statements about the subject (which are not attributed to the orks themselves, I should note, but are instead written from the narrator's perspective) are "nothing even remotely trustworthy", then I would go so far as to say you only think things you agree with are trustworthy.

Melissia wrote:... then I would go so far as to say you only think things you agree with are trustworthy.

Then you would go too far. The Ork perspective is unique because it does not make any pretense whatsoever to objectivity. Even the deeply prejudiced and superstitious Imperium operates under the assumption of trying to understand the universe for what it really is. That's why the Imperium invents things like Geller Fields while the Orks "jess get da weirdboyz ta sort it out" or whatever. The Orks don't need scientific materialism to be effective in the world; they just will things to happen. So when the Orks say that there is a such thing as Gork and Mork, I have no doubt that there are truly such things. Just like I have no doubt that for them the "red wunz" are indeed faster. But the orks' attitude towards paintjobs hardly qualifies them as mechanical engineers.

Melissia wrote:

Manchu wrote:We really don't know what the Eldar and Ork "gods" are. I'm not going to even touch on the subject of Gork and Mork because there is nothing even remotely trustworthy written about them.

That's a rather nonsensical thing to say.

IF you think codices making unequivocal statements about the subject (which are not attributed to the orks themselves, I should note, but are instead written from the narrator's perspective) are "nothing even remotely trustworthy", then I would go so far as to say you only think things you agree with are trustworthy.

She does have a point. The fluff on Gork and Mork from Codex: Orks 4th Edition is quite clear to their power level and nature.

That codex is also quite clear that the orks always win every battle even when they lose. :/

Manchu wrote:That codex is also quite clear that the orks always win every battle even when they lose. :/

Because they never actually lose. They'll just keep coming back. In-universe, that's the reason Orks are the most successful race in the galaxy. For them survival is not a question - its a fact.

They're not interested in survival; they're just interested in fighting. They're also not interested in understanding the Warp. The Ork perspective isn't much good for finding anything out about the 40k universe except regarding the Ork perspective itself.

Manchu wrote:They're not interested in survival; they're just interested in fighting. They're also not interested in understanding the Warp. The Ork perspective isn't much good for finding anything out about the 40k universe except regarding the Ork perspective itself.

Why should they worry about survival when there's no need to so? And the existence of Gork and Mork (who surpass all others in the Warp) make it clear that belief has as much effect as emotion in the Warp. The Ork perspective is the purest in 40k...everything else is muddled by civilization, history, culture, etc. Just look at the Orks and there you see the perfect species and the perfect example for Warhammer 40,000.

So are you going to change you avatar and sig to something about orks now?

Manchu wrote:So are you going to change you avatar and sig to something about orks now?

Of course not. Pardon me if I lapse this once into roleplay but, I fight for the Fallen Emperor's ideals of truth and enlightenment, not the whims of a council of bureaucrats.

You know, if you really like that idea you might want a Soul Drinkers avatar rather than a 1k Sons avatar. They think exactly the same way.

Manchu wrote:You know, if you really like that idea you might want a Soul Drinkers avatar rather than a 1k Sons avatar. They think exactly the same way.

Thing is, and once again sorry if I slip into roleplay, I'd rather go after the Black Library and use its knowledge to go back in time and stop the Horus Heresy from ever happening. AT ALL. Blood Ravens could possibly be Thousand Sons, are more knowledgeable about the Warp, and are my favorite legion.

Manchu wrote:We really don't know what the Eldar and Ork "gods" are. I'm not going to even touch on the subject of Gork and Mork because there is nothing even remotely trustworthy written about them. As for the Eldar Gods, they could be the Eldar's dim memory of their creators, the Old Ones. Or perhaps they are the Eldar's own original ancestors -- the ones closest to the Old Ones and therefore the most powerful Eldar psykers to ever exist (similar to the Emperor). Nothing published explicitly indicates that they are necessarily "gods" in the sense of the Ruinous Powers.

Except all the things people have pointed out already which you keep conviently ignoring.

Manchu wrote:Then you would go too far.

I probably don't go far enough, really.

Just because the Imperium doesn't believe in them doesn't mean that they don't exist. I don't see any logical basis for your argument except a peculiar desire to deny their existence for...some.... reason....

KamikazeCanuck wrote:Except all the things people have pointed out already which you keep conviently ignoring.

I've actually addressed them all.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Melissia wrote:Just because the Imperium doesn't believe in them doesn't mean that they don't exist. I don't see any logical basis for your argument except a peculiar desire to deny their existence for...some.... reason....

Well, at least I have proof that you don't understand my position. You see, I didn't claim that the Ork gods and Eldar gods don't exist. I simply said we don't know how they exist(ed).

Manchu wrote:

KamikazeCanuck wrote:Except all the things people have pointed out already which you keep conviently ignoring.

I've actually addressed them all.

If addressing them is simply ignoring something because it's in the Eldar codex then that's a poor arguement. We should also ignore what's in the Daemons codex because it could just all be written off as the Big 4 bragging about how awesome they are. At least the Eldar were actual people.

Manchu wrote:

KamikazeCanuck wrote:Except all the things people have pointed out already which you keep conviently ignoring.

I've actually addressed them all.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Melissia wrote:Just because the Imperium doesn't believe in them doesn't mean that they don't exist. I don't see any logical basis for your argument except a peculiar desire to deny their existence for...some.... reason....

Well, at least I have proof that you don't understand my position. You see, I didn't claim that the Ork gods and Eldar gods don't exist. I simply said we don't know how they exist(ed).

Okay, that's understandable.

Personally I think it's simply them as a manifestation of the galactic Ork WAAAGH! effect.

KamikazeCanuck wrote:At least the Eldar were actual people.

No, they're aliens, too. But they show an interest in objective reality.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Melissia wrote:Personally I think it's simply them as a manifestation of the galactic Ork WAAAGH! effect.

I completely agree that this is the most reasonable explanation.

Wishing I still kept my Oldcron codex so I could site the damn passages... *grumble grumble grumble...*

The Imperial Truth would have worked, minus the part about explaining the existence of Chaos to the masses*. Knowing about Chaos would cause mass corruption and basically send 40k back to 3rd edition. However, if the average Imperial citizen knew more than "The Emperor is a god!" it would be beneficial to Humanity.

*I think that was part of the Imperial Truth, but I'm not sure.

DOOMBREAD wrote:The Imperial Truth would have worked, minus the part about explaining the existence of Chaos to the masses*. Knowing about Chaos would cause mass corruption and basically send 40k back to 3rd edition. However, if the average Imperial citizen knew more than "The Emperor is a god!" it would be beneficial to Humanity.

*I think that was part of the Imperial Truth, but I'm not sure.

No. The Imperial Truths sets aside faith, superstition, and religion for reason, logic, and scientific progress. The Emperor had the XIII Legio Astartes Ultramarines burn Monarchia to the ground as it was the center of the Lectitio Divinitatus (the old name for the Imperial Cult).

Tadashi wrote:

DOOMBREAD wrote:The Imperial Truth would have worked, minus the part about explaining the existence of Chaos to the masses*. Knowing about Chaos would cause mass corruption and basically send 40k back to 3rd edition. However, if the average Imperial citizen knew more than "The Emperor is a god!" it would be beneficial to Humanity.

*I think that was part of the Imperial Truth, but I'm not sure.

No. The Imperial Truths sets aside faith, superstition, and religion for reason, logic, and scientific progress. The Emperor had the XIII Legio Astartes Ultramarines burn Monarchia to the ground as it was the center of the Lectitio Divinitatus (the old name for the Imperial Cult).

That's not entirely true, the Imperial Truth was basically a lie to hide Chaos to the people, personally, after reading the Horus Heresy books I get the impression that the emperor is not as "good" as people think of him, while his initial goal seems very clear, it seems to be more and more diluted as time passes.

jgehunter wrote:

Tadashi wrote:

DOOMBREAD wrote:The Imperial Truth would have worked, minus the part about explaining the existence of Chaos to the masses*. Knowing about Chaos would cause mass corruption and basically send 40k back to 3rd edition. However, if the average Imperial citizen knew more than "The Emperor is a god!" it would be beneficial to Humanity.

*I think that was part of the Imperial Truth, but I'm not sure.

No. The Imperial Truths sets aside faith, superstition, and religion for reason, logic, and scientific progress. The Emperor had the XIII Legio Astartes Ultramarines burn Monarchia to the ground as it was the center of the Lectitio Divinitatus (the old name for the Imperial Cult).

That's not entirely true, the Imperial Truth was basically a lie to hide Chaos to the people, personally, after reading the Horus Heresy books I get the impression that the emperor is not as "good" as people think of him, while his initial goal seems very clear, it seems to be more and more diluted as time passes.

You ought to read the older posts - we've been discussing for a long time now that the Imperial Truth was meant to 'kill' or 'emasculate' Chaos in the long-term.

Although that was his plan I don't think it would have worked as it appears that Actions rather than Belief are what fuel them and while there were any Xenos left to kill, Khorne would still be up there.

jgehunter wrote:Although that was his plan I don't think it would have worked as it appears that Actions rather than Belief are what fuel them and while there were any Xenos left to kill, Khorne would still be up there.

...

We've already discussed that problem earlier...this thread is six pages long. Look for it.

jgehunter wrote:

Tadashi wrote:

DOOMBREAD wrote:The Imperial Truth would have worked, minus the part about explaining the existence of Chaos to the masses*. Knowing about Chaos would cause mass corruption and basically send 40k back to 3rd edition. However, if the average Imperial citizen knew more than "The Emperor is a god!" it would be beneficial to Humanity.

*I think that was part of the Imperial Truth, but I'm not sure.

No. The Imperial Truths sets aside faith, superstition, and religion for reason, logic, and scientific progress. The Emperor had the XIII Legio Astartes Ultramarines burn Monarchia to the ground as it was the center of the Lectitio Divinitatus (the old name for the Imperial Cult).

That's not entirely true, the Imperial Truth was basically a lie to hide Chaos to the people, personally, after reading the Horus Heresy books I get the impression that the emperor is not as "good" as people think of him, while his initial goal seems very clear, it seems to be more and more diluted as time passes.

Was it a lie though or was it more of an attempt to rationalize everything, to give everything a classification that can be explained? I'm sort of with Tadashi in regards to why the Imperial Truth was bought about. There are no Gods or Daemons, just powerful extra dimensional xenos.

But then it comes down to the individuals interpretation, when faced with something, like Kyril Sindermann was in Horus Rising, seeing something like the Daemon Possessed Jubal is enough to test ones own beliefs, even the most stoic of believers. Which is the what the Chaos Gods want you to do, they show you something extraordinary that your mind has never comprehended before, just so you start believing in something else. Is the belief not enough, maybe not, but you start to investigate what is beyond your knowledge and you open your mind to suggestion.