Question 1:

A flying MC must be deployed in glide mode. At the start of it's move, it can choose to be in Glide or Swooping mode. Does the first turn deployment of glide mode indicate a restriction to have to be in glide mode on the first turn?

Question 2:

When a Flying Monstrous Creature in Swoop mode is grounded. The only result of grounding seems to be that it can then be assaulted. Has it's lost it's swoop mode?



I am pretty sure I know the answers to these, but I wanted to put it up here as it has been a contention among some of the local players.

Mahu wrote:Question 1:

A flying MC must be deployed in glide mode. At the start of it's move, it can choose to be in Glide or Swooping mode. Does the first turn deployment of glide mode indicate a restriction to have to be in glide mode on the first turn?

There is no restriction on Swooping in the first turn. Having to deploy in Glide mode really just makes a difference if you don't get first turn.

Mahu wrote:Question 2:

When a Flying Monstrous Creature in Swoop mode is grounded. The only result of grounding seems to be that it can then be assaulted. Has it's lost it's swoop mode?

Your observation seems to be right - the only changes are that it loses the Jink rule and can be assaulted. By RAW, this means that the modeel is still Swooping (so can only be shot with Snap Fire) and must still take Grounded tests for every unit that scores at least one hit.

Personally, I think it'd be easier to treat the model as Gliding after it fails a Ground test, but this is strictly a house rule.

That is what I thought, a local player was trying to make the argument that because you are deployed in Glide mode you can't change to swooping on the first turn. I couldn't find that restriction at all, but I wanted to see if people here saw something I didn't.

Mahu wrote:Question 1:

A flying MC must be deployed in glide mode. At the start of it's move, it can choose to be in Glide or Swooping mode. Does the first turn deployment of glide mode indicate a restriction to have to be in glide mode on the first turn?

You get to choose the mode at the start of your movement phase, even on first turn. The effect of the rule here is that if you are going second, your opponent has 1 turn to hit you with out needing skyfire. If you are going first, it does not have much effect (yet).

Question 2:

When a Flying Monstrous Creature in Swoop mode is grounded. The only result of grounding seems to be that it can then be assaulted. Has it's lost it's swoop mode?

It only looses Swoop for the remainder of the turn it was shoot down in, so it loses Jink and it can be assaulted. At the start of it's next turn it can either glide or swoop again, as per the last sentence under Grounded Test.

I can't say where it loses swoop though. So I assume you still need 6's to shoot at it.

it clearly says the beast comes crashing to the ground. Obviously its not swooping at that point unless your TFG trying to nitpick the wording of the book. Not someone i would want to play a game against thats for sure.

Slagmar wrote:it clearly says the beast comes crashing to the ground. Obviously its not swooping at that point unless your TFG trying to nitpick the wording of the book. Not someone i would want to play a game against thats for sure.

Quick accusation. Maybe I'd like to follow the rules in the book instead of making things up?

Unless they FAQ it, you don't lose swooping.

rigeld2 wrote:

Slagmar wrote:it clearly says the beast comes crashing to the ground. Obviously its not swooping at that point unless your TFG trying to nitpick the wording of the book. Not someone i would want to play a game against thats for sure.

Quick accusation. Maybe I'd like to follow the rules in the book instead of making things up?

Unless they FAQ it, you don't lose swooping.

RAI - they do lose it, as you can't swoop while pulling yourself out of a small crater
RAW - they don't, because the rules only imply rather than explicitly state

One of these options makes you TFG - guess which!

If i tried to tell my opponents that they needed 6s to hit my FMC after it'd been grounded, they'd laugh at me.

I am just trying to figure out what the rules say.

RAI has no place in any game system, and labeling anyone a TFG is flaming at best.

From the strict wording of the rules, a flying MC is either swooping or gliding. They never defined what "being grounded" means except that you can be assaulted. The rules simply do not say if the model has changed mode or if "being grounded" means you lose swooping.

By the way I read it, you could also ground a MC multiple times in a turn.

Please, no "it should, or was intended to work like this" arguments. I am only interested in what the rules themselves actually say.

When you are swooping, you can not be assaulted.

You only take a grounding test while swooping.

If you fail a grounding test, you can be assaulted. This means you are no longer swooping.

If you are no longer swooping, the grounding test cannot be applied again.

Mahu wrote:I am just trying to figure out what the rules say.

RAI has no place in any game system, and labeling anyone a TFG is flaming at best.

From the strict wording of the rules, a flying MC is either swooping or gliding. They never defined what "being grounded" means except that you can be assaulted. The rules simply do not say if the model has changed mode or if "being grounded" means you lose swooping.

By the way I read it, you could also ground a MC multiple times in a turn.

Please, no "it should, or was intended to work like this" arguments. I am only interested in what the rules themselves actually say.

RAI does have a place in every game system, its a quick and easy way to sort out some rules disputes and if it fails, you resort to RAW.
RAW should never be the first port of call, you should discuss with your oponent how you think a rule was intended and only failing that resort to the black and white world of RAW.

OT: RAI here is that it would indeed lose swoop, its been shot down.
Speak to your oponent and if he does not agree (this does not make him TFG, he may just disagree) go by RAW.

RAI has a place in any system intended to be fun. If you're playing the game for fun then it's perfectly reasonable to read the rules in the way they're intended to function. This is a perfect example of such an event - the rules text describes in several places what the effect is even if it fails to address all the side-effects.

If on the other hand, the game is serious business for you then feel free to rules-lawyer RAW text as much as you like - winning is most important after all, right? Even if it means using an unintended technicality to do so!

Just don't surprised when opponents are pulling your flyers out of the sky with foot-long Ork Grabba Klaws on trukks... RAW all the way!

Green is Best! wrote:When you are swooping, you can not be assaulted.

You only take a grounding test while swooping.

If you fail a grounding test, you can be assaulted. This means you are no longer swooping.

If you are no longer swooping, the grounding test cannot be applied again.

No, it simply means that if you get grounded there is an exception to being unable to assault a swooping FMC. It never says you stop swooping, you can just get assaulted in the next assault phase.

Read the rule and no where does it say that a FMC is swooping when it's grounded. It says it's grounded, can be assaulted, loses jink and can move normally in it's next turn.

Swooping rules.

A MODEL CAN NOT CHARGE OR BE CHARGED WHILE SWOOPING.

There for, a grounded FMC is not swooping.

Specific>General.



The FMC was swooping. It got shot. It failed a Grounding Test, it takes a Str9 hit with no armor or cover saves allowed and loses its Jink save if it had one. It may also be assaulted in the following assault phase.

At any time, does it say it is no longer swooping? No no no NO!

A FMC that failed its Grounded Test is still swooping, but the special rules for the Grounded test bypass the normal rule that you cannot assault a Swooping model.

MJThurston wrote:Read the rule and no where does it say that a FMC is swooping when it's grounded. It says it's grounded, can be assaulted, loses jink and can move normally in it's next turn.

Swooping rules.

A MODEL CAN NOT CHARGE OR BE CHARGED WHILE SWOOPING.

There for, a grounded FMC is not swooping.

I was swooping. Therefore units firing at me must Snap Shot.
I am now grounded.
Find the rule that stops the Snap Shot requirement.

Removing some (not all) benefits of a rule does not mean I no longer have the rule.

rigeld2 wrote:

MJThurston wrote:Read the rule and no where does it say that a FMC is swooping when it's grounded. It says it's grounded, can be assaulted, loses jink and can move normally in it's next turn.

Swooping rules.

A MODEL CAN NOT CHARGE OR BE CHARGED WHILE SWOOPING.

There for, a grounded FMC is not swooping.

I was swooping. Therefore units firing at me must Snap Shot.
I am now grounded.
Find the rule that stops the Snap Shot requirement.

Removing some (not all) benefits of a rule does not mean I no longer have the rule.

I think this is one of the cases where GW probably thought it was obvious that if you are defined as grounded then you are no longer flying around the battlefield. Common sense>the internet.

Don't want this thread to become another RAW versus RAI argument. RAI is subjective, it should always be RAW first, and if you don't like RAW modify it to what you and your opponent thinks RAI might be with consent.

It looks like grounded doesn't remove swooping, per RAW. If you and your opponent don't like that, play how you want. If you don't like it, but your opponent wants to play by the rules as they are written, then don't play him. It is that simple. I prefer to play by what the rules actually say until GW says otherwise.

Testify wrote:I think this is one of the cases where GW probably thought it was obvious that if you are defined as grounded then you are no longer flying around the battlefield. Common sense>the internet.

And an FAQ might even rule that way. RAW, however, is not that way.

I understand YMDC is all about rules lawyering and semantics, but I cannot imagine anyone actually trying to enforce this face to face.

I will until GW says otherwise.


Remember that the game is mearly an abstraction. The MC has already been hit and is falling but at the time of all the other shooting it is still airborn and hard to hit. But it can no longer jink.

Grounding absolutely takes away Swooping.

Once again.

RAW Swooping FMC can not charge and can not be charged.

If a FMC can be charged it is no longer Swooping. There is no half truth to this because Grounded doesn't say "NO LONGER SWOOPING." It doesn't need to say this.

Lets go through the rule.

A FMC has two types of movement. Swooping or Gliding. These are movements that are done during the movement phase of the FMC.

A FMC can not charge or be charged while it is swooping.

A diving FMC and a Swooping FMC can only be hit by Snap Shots.

Now the Grounded rule.
Can be assaulted = No longer Swooping.
Loses it's jinx = Can't be diving.
It can move normally in it's next movement phase.

This takes us back to the first rule. During movement it can swoop or Glide. So a Grounded FMC is what it is, Grounded. It can not swoop until it's movement phase. I don't see how this can be looked at in any other way.

Now if you wanted to argue that a FMC is gliding after it's grounded then I would say, sure.

Here is the issue. You have Rules Lawyers saying "It's doesn't say you lose swooping in black and white."

But in black and white it says swooping FMC can't be charged........

So I ask you this. If Swooping = can't be charged. What does Can be charged =. It = gliding. So is a grounded FMC = to Gliding????

On another point.

So do you think it's fair that I keep shooting your FMC with Skyfire and keep making you get grounded for a Str 9 no save wound???

Again, absolutely wrong.

Grounded is a special rule that bypasses the rule that it cannot be assaulted while swooping, it also takes away its Jink save if it had one.

It NEVER says it stops Swooping, just because it can be assaulted doesn't mean it can't be swooping. Because its Grounded, which bypasses the "can't be assaulted" rule. Its still swooping.

You are flat out wrong.

So, because the rules do not explicitly state you stop swooping (while taking away every single special rule for swooping), you are saying the FMC is no longer swooping.

Great. You win the semantics issue but are completely missing the forest for the trees on this one.

No, they don't take away every single rule. They provide an exception for one of them, take away one, and say nothing about the third(only getting hit by Snap Shots)

It's like beating your face on a wall. Go argue with someone else. Grey Templar you are totally wrong.

If Grounded is it's own entry then if you are Grounded you are not Swooping.

So you can't be Swooping while Grounded. So you proved our point perfectly. Thanks Grey Templar.

The Grounded rule says the FMC crashes to the ground. No where does it say it gets to go back to Swooping or Diving until it's movement phase. Which in it's movement phase it can Glide or Swoop.

So again. I have more than proved what Grounded means. So you can play the correct way or you can make up rules on your own.

No, Grounded is not a state of movement. Its something that happens if the model gets hit, nothing more.

Find where it says a model that gets grounded is no longer Swooping. Find it.

Mahu wrote:labeling anyone a TFG is flaming at best.

Definitely this. Folks, if you can't discuss rules interpretations without reaching immediately for insults and negative characterizations, YMDC is not the place for you. Continue doing so, and I will remove your ability to participate.

Grey Templar wrote:No, Grounded is not a state of movement. Its something that happens if the model gets hit, nothing more.

Find where it says a model that gets grounded is no longer Swooping. Find it.

Something else to consider: it would have been easier to simply say "A model that has failed a Grounded check is no longer Swooping," rather than spell out the exceptions that they did.

MJThurston wrote:I have more than proved what Grounded means. So you can play the correct way or you can make up rules on your own.

No, you haven't. You've proven that the Grounded condition removes one thing Swooping does, modifies another and makes no mention of yet another.
You have no proven that Grounded removes Swooping - which is what you're asserting.

Please prove this.

I somehow doubt the intent of Grounding was to instantly kill the the FMC. Since it can now be assaulted, if that assault continues for a round, that FMC will be unable to move and, if still Swooping, killed since it can't move the minimum distance.

This seems like an unlikely rules interpretation.

No, it would simply choose to Glide instead in its own movement phase. It then can't move because its locked in combat. So it doesn't die.

Swooping is flying. Flying means you are in the air. If you are grounded you are not flying and there for are not swooping.

Now we are going to argue what point again? It doesn't say you no longer are swooping or diving.

Lets get this straight. If you were diving or swooping, Grounded doesn't change this? So tell me how you can be flying if you are grounded?

Also you are saying that a FMC can be grounded more than once in a single firing phase?

MJThurston wrote:Swooping is flying. Flying means you are in the air. If you are grounded you are not flying and there for are not swooping.

Fluff argument.

Lets get this straight. If you were diving or swooping, Grounded doesn't change this? So tell me how you can be flying if you are grounded?

Because fluff != rules.

Also you are saying that a FMC can be grounded more than once in a single firing phase?

Yes. This is a "bug" in the rules.

Grey Templar wrote:No, it would simply choose to Glide instead in its own movement phase. It then can't move because its locked in combat. So it doesn't die.

Well, the rules say it is free to resume normal movement on its next turn.
So, I would choose swooping, no longer be assault-able, and simply fly away from the combat.

True, you could do that too. See, it all makes sense.

Getting Grounded is a way of getting one free round of combat with the MC before it swoops away again, unless it decides to stay and fight you.

Grey Templar wrote:No, Grounded is not a state of movement. Its something that happens if the model gets hit, nothing more.

Find where it says a model that gets grounded is no longer Swooping. Find it.

It is neither swooping nor gliding - it is grounded. The rules explicitly state this.

MJ - you are making a basic logical fallacy. Just because A implies B does not mean B implies A

Currelty being grounded does not remove your Swooping status.

nosferatu1001 wrote:MJ - you are making a basic logical fallacy. Just because A implies B does not mean B implies A

Currelty being grounded does not remove your Swooping status.

It does, because it's Grounded. It's gone from being a Swooping Flying Monsterous Creature to being a Grounded Flying Monsterous Creature.
Read the rulebook folks.
The Grounded state is specifically spelled out in the book, there is no ambiguity here.

Testify wrote:

Grey Templar wrote:No, Grounded is not a state of movement. Its something that happens if the model gets hit, nothing more.

Find where it says a model that gets grounded is no longer Swooping. Find it.

It is neither swooping nor gliding - it is grounded. The rules explicitly state this.

What rule removes Swooping? Page/para?

rigeld2 wrote:

Testify wrote:

Grey Templar wrote:No, Grounded is not a state of movement. Its something that happens if the model gets hit, nothing more.

Find where it says a model that gets grounded is no longer Swooping. Find it.

It is neither swooping nor gliding - it is grounded. The rules explicitly state this.

What rule removes Swooping? Page/para?

FMC page.
"If a 1 or 2 is rolled, the beast comes crashing down to the ground - it suffers a single Strength 9 hit with no armour or cover saves allowed, and becomes Grounded. A Grounded Monsterous Creature &cetra".
On the movement page it doesn't mention that after you've moved the model, the model is no longer where it was. You are employing the same logic.

Amen. Testify.

The rules do not say that you continue to swoop. And please lets not harp on the swoop side of this. What if you were diving? The rule lawyers want a snap shot safety net that is not there.

And you do not get to fly away on your turn. You are locked in combat and if you are not locked in combat, then you can move as normal. Not move as normal after you are assaulted and still locked.

Keep reading into rules and you will come up with crazy results.

FMC's have 2 modes: gliding and swooping.

Grounded never says it counts as gliding for shooting or assault purposes.

It only states you can no longer jink, and you can be assaulted.

They went out of their way to list the penalties when they could have just said grounded = gliding.

Grounded = still swooping but can be assaulted and not jink.

MJThurston wrote:And you do not get to fly away on your turn. You are locked in combat and if you are not locked in combat, then you can move as normal. Not move as normal after you are assaulted and still locked.

I agree. You should not be able to fly away. However, if you are still in swooping mode, yet locked in assault, weird things happen.

Or, since I can choose to swoop AND be locked in assault, maybe I can carry those models away with me and we can fight and fly at the same time.

I fully expect this to be FAQ'd that grounded = no longer swooping.

Testify wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

Testify wrote:

Grey Templar wrote:No, Grounded is not a state of movement. Its something that happens if the model gets hit, nothing more.

Find where it says a model that gets grounded is no longer Swooping. Find it.

It is neither swooping nor gliding - it is grounded. The rules explicitly state this.

What rule removes Swooping? Page/para?

FMC page.
"If a 1 or 2 is rolled, the beast comes crashing down to the ground - it suffers a single Strength 9 hit with no armour or cover saves allowed, and becomes Grounded. A Grounded Monsterous Creature &cetra".
On the movement page it doesn't mention that after you've moved the model, the model is no longer where it was. You are employing the same logic.

I still don't see the part where it says its no longer swooping. Please show it to me.

hyv3mynd wrote:FMC's have 2 modes: gliding and swooping.

You've made that up.
You can choose to glide or swoop, or you can become grounded by enemy shooting.

Testify wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

Testify wrote:

Grey Templar wrote:No, Grounded is not a state of movement. Its something that happens if the model gets hit, nothing more.

Find where it says a model that gets grounded is no longer Swooping. Find it.

It is neither swooping nor gliding - it is grounded. The rules explicitly state this.

What rule removes Swooping? Page/para?

FMC page.
"If a 1 or 2 is rolled, the beast comes crashing down to the ground - it suffers a single Strength 9 hit with no armour or cover saves allowed, and becomes Grounded. A Grounded Monsterous Creature &cetra".
On the movement page it doesn't mention that after you've moved the model, the model is no longer where it was. You are employing the same logic.

No, I'm not. I have permission to move my model. I can't have more than one of this model without paying points/FoC, etc.
Therefore, when my model is moved I obviously do not have a second one.

I am Swooping. I then get Grounded. Nowhere in Grounded does it say Swooping is removed. It even goes out of the way to not remove Swooping.

Green is Best! wrote:I fully expect this to be FAQ'd that grounded = no longer swooping.

Agreed.

Grey Templar wrote:

Testify wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

Testify wrote:

Grey Templar wrote:No, Grounded is not a state of movement. Its something that happens if the model gets hit, nothing more.

Find where it says a model that gets grounded is no longer Swooping. Find it.

It is neither swooping nor gliding - it is grounded. The rules explicitly state this.

What rule removes Swooping? Page/para?

FMC page.
"If a 1 or 2 is rolled, the beast comes crashing down to the ground - it suffers a single Strength 9 hit with no armour or cover saves allowed, and becomes Grounded. A Grounded Monsterous Creature &cetra".
On the movement page it doesn't mention that after you've moved the model, the model is no longer where it was. You are employing the same logic.

I still don't see the part where it says its no longer swooping. Please show it to me.

The part where it says it's grounded.
I'll say again - FMCs can be Swooping, Gliding or Grounded. At no point in the description for the Grounded state does it say that it is still swooping.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

rigeld2 wrote:
No, I'm not. I have permission to move my model. I can't have more than one of this model without paying points/FoC, etc.
Therefore, when my model is moved I obviously do not have a second one.

Page number/paragraph stating this? No where does it state that your model is no longer in the place that it was.

rigeld2 wrote:
I am Swooping. I then get Grounded. Nowhere in Grounded does it say Swooping is removed. It even goes out of the way to not remove Swooping.

It goes out of the way not to say a lot of things.
What it DOES say is that it is now a Grounded Flying Monsterous Creature. NOT a Swooping Flying Monsterous Creature.

Why are we still talking about swooping?

Where does it say you are no longer diving?

I can tell you this. If you play me in a game and you tell me that your grounded FMC is still swooping. We will be packing up models and I will never play you again.

I'll say my peace on this and I'm done.

Gliding and Swooping are declared on the FMC player turn. If they are grounded during the other players Shooting Phase they can not Glide or Swoop until their Movement turn. I do not see what is so hard about this besides the Rules Lawyers believing. "It doesn't say I stop Swooping/Diving!" Does it have to say this when it says you land on the ground so hard you take a STR 9 no save wound??????????????

Again, Grounded is NOT a state of movement.

FMCs are either Swooping or Gliding. Grounded is not a 3rd state of movement.

Its something that happens if a FMC gets hit. If they had meant it to not be swooping anymore they would have said "The FMC is no longer swooping", but they didn't.

They said it can be assaulted in the following assault phase and no longer gets a Jink save. Thats it, nothing about it no longer Swooping. A Permissive ruleset requires you to explicitly say something has changed for it to change. The status quo is that it is Swooping. Nothing changed it.

MJThurston wrote:Why are we still talking about swooping?

Where does it say you are no longer diving?

I can tell you this. If you play me in a game and you tell me that your grounded FMC is still swooping. We will be packing up models and I will never play you again.

I'll say my peace on this and I'm done.

Gliding and Swooping are declared on the FMC player turn. If they are grounded during the other players Shooting Phase they can not Glide or Swoop until their Movement turn. I do not see what is so hard about this besides the Rules Lawyers believing. "It doesn't say I stop Swooping/Diving!" Does it have to say this when it says you land on the ground so hard you take a STR 9 no save wound??????????????

Oh sup, my conscripts just blew apart your 300 point FMC because of a rule I just made up.
LET'S BE FRIENDS.
Lol, no.

MJThurston wrote:Does it have to say this when it says you land on the ground so hard you take a STR 9 no save wound??????????????

The way the rules work, yes.

In a game, I don't really care how it gets played.
In a RAW discussion, it absolutely needs to remove the Swooping.

Well, the terminology used by GW in this case is horrible.

Gliding means you are acting like jump infantry. So, as I envision it, the FMC is on the ground taking short hops with its wings, but ending its turn on the ground. This means you are taking difficult terrain tests if you try to leave or enter moving more than 6".

Swooping is when it is up in the air, moving as a flyer.

However, when most people hear the word gliding, they still think of flight.

So, my question now is I have an FMC sitting in difficult terrain. I choose to go to swoop mode. Since swoop ignores difficult terrain, no test is needed. Correct?

Thats correct.

Grey Templar wrote: If they had meant it to not be swooping anymore they would have said "The FMC is no longer swooping", but they didn't.

Let;'s not get ahead of ourselves here. We have many years of shady GW rules writing to argue against this being an oversight and not intentional.

Grey Templar wrote:Again, Grounded is NOT a state of movement.

FMCs are either Swooping or Gliding. Grounded is not a 3rd state of movement.

Its something that happens if a FMC gets hit. If they had meant it to not be swooping anymore they would have said "The FMC is no longer swooping", but they didn't.

They said it can be assaulted in the following assault phase and no longer gets a Jink save. Thats it, nothing about it no longer Swooping. A Permissive ruleset requires you to explicitly say something has changed for it to change. The status quo is that it is Swooping. Nothing changed it.

So when it says "The flying Monsterous Creature is now grounded", they forgot to add "ignore the previous sentence", since apparently it's meaningless.

The Monsterous Creature is specifically stated to be Grounded, then spells out what Grounded means.
In fact by your logic, it is grounded for the entire game since no where in the explanation does it state that being grounded ever ends.

So either grounding over-rides swooping, and swooping over-rides gliding in the following turn.
Or if it ever grounds once, it is never ungrounded, though you can re-gain your Jink save.

Testify wrote:FMC page.
"If a 1 or 2 is rolled, the beast comes crashing down to the ground - it suffers a single Strength 9 hit with no armour or cover saves allowed, and becomes Grounded. A Grounded Monsterous Creature &cetra".

I missed this when I was reading the rules. This is correct - the FMC is no longer swooping.

rigeld2 wrote:

Testify wrote:FMC page.
"If a 1 or 2 is rolled, the beast comes crashing down to the ground - it suffers a single Strength 9 hit with no armour or cover saves allowed, and becomes Grounded. A Grounded Monsterous Creature &cetra".

I missed this when I was reading the rules. This is correct - the FMC is no longer swooping.

Again, WHERE DOES IT SAY THAT?

Nowhere, thats where.


Nothing prohibits the FMC from Swooping and being Grounded at the same time. Grounded superceeds Swooping in the case of conflict, so it can be assaulted and doesn't get Jink if it had it.

Grey Templar wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

Testify wrote:FMC page.
"If a 1 or 2 is rolled, the beast comes crashing down to the ground - it suffers a single Strength 9 hit with no armour or cover saves allowed, and becomes Grounded. A Grounded Monsterous Creature &cetra".

I missed this when I was reading the rules. This is correct - the FMC is no longer swooping.

Again, WHERE DOES IT SAY THAT?

Nowhere, thats where.


Nothing prohibits the FMC from Swooping and being Grounded at the same time. Grounded superceeds Swooping in the case of conflict, so it can be assaulted and doesn't get Jink if it had it.

Grounded tests, third paragraph.

Nope, nothing there saying it stops Swooping.

Grey Templar wrote:Nope, nothing there saying it stops Swooping.

Because the rulebook makes a distinction between a Swooping Flying Monstrous Creature and a Grounded Flying Monstrous Creature.

So you cannot have a Grounded Swooping Flying Monstrous Creature.

Why not?

FMCs are either Swooping or Gliding. They can't be in any other state of movement.

Grey Templar wrote:Why not?

FMCs are either Swooping or Gliding. They can't be in any other state of movement.

Because the Grounded rules say "... and become Grounded. A Grounded Flying Monstrous Creature ..."
If they were still swooping that sentence would have to begin "... Grounded. A grounded Flying Monstrous Creature ..." Using the capital version means it's removing any qualifiers that were already there and replacing them with it's own.

And yes, they can only be in one of those two states of movement, but there's nothing saying that those are the only two states ever.
Grounded is a state.

It doesn't need to say its Swooping for it to be Swooping.

A grounded MC is obvious one thats failed its Grounding test. Nowhere in the rules does it say failing the Grounding test makes it no longer swooping. Admit it, you cannot disproove this.


For the record, I agree that it should remove swooping. But it doesn't. You have nothing.

Grey Templar wrote:A grounded MC is obvious one thats failed its Grounding test. Nowhere in the rules does it say failing the Grounding test makes it no longer swooping.

Re-reading again...

A swooping FMC is referred to as "A Flying Monstrous Creature that is Swooping".
When grounded, you're a "Grounded Flying Monstrous Creature" not a "Flying Monstrous Creature that is Grounded".
There's nothing that says you cannot be a "Grounded Flying Monstrous Creature that is Swooping."

That's the semantic argument. I'm going to bow out of the discussion now because it's getting insane and my viewpoint is useless and becoming biased.

rigeld2 wrote:

Grey Templar wrote:Nope, nothing there saying it stops Swooping.

Because the rulebook makes a distinction between a Swooping Flying Monstrous Creature and a Grounded Flying Monstrous Creature.

So you cannot have a Grounded Swooping Flying Monstrous Creature.

This actually opens up a much bigger can of worms.
Only once (under the Hard to Hit rule) is there a mention of a Swooping Flying Monstrous creature. All the other entries state "a Flying Monstrous Creature that is Swooping".
So IF we assume A Swooping Flying monstrous Creature is a type, and that it is renamed to Grounded Flying Monstrous Creature on a failed grounded test, and further since there is no listed parameters of UNDOING the type change, since it does not revert at the end of a phase or turn, we must assume either
A) It is never considered to follow the Hard to Hit rule for the rest of the game
or
B) The Grounded type is not exclusionary (similar to the Jump unit type), and it does not remove the Swooping rule

Alternatively, we could also consider that since a "Swooping Flying Monstrous Creature" is an undefined unit type, a Flying Monstrous Creature that is swooping never benefits from the Hard to Hit rule at all.

I think I need to get myself a drink.

TheRedDevil wrote: I think I need to get myself a drink.

Exactly where I was headed. And it's not even 1pm.

Essentially, taking the semantic argument and applying it to the rule book as a whole fails. SFMC's don't exist. FMCtaS exist. GFMCs exist. There's no mention of GFMCtaS.
FMCtaS aren't Hard to Hit - SFMCs are.

Therefore SFMCs and FMCtaS must be the same thing.
Therefore a GFMC replaces a SFMC.

You know, its topics like this that mean I no longer have to watch TV to get entertainment.

Honestly I can see everyones view point and they all make sense in their own way. Personally I'm in the camp that says they are no longer swooping as they've hit the ground but that's just me using my common sense to try and work out what the fudge GW are trying to write.

You would think GW would have gotten it together by now wouldn't you? Maybe they should get Dakka to proof read all their future publifications? XD

LynxSarnage wrote:You know, its topics like this that mean I no longer have to watch TV to get entertainment.

Honestly I can see everyones view point and they all make sense in their own way. Personally I'm in the camp that says they are no longer swooping as they've hit the ground but that's just me using my common sense to try and work out what the fudge GW are trying to write.

You would think GW would have gotten it together by now wouldn't you? Maybe they should get Dakka to proof read all their future publifications? XD

It took millions of people millions of games to spot this single poorly worded rule.
GW will never have the resources to play test on that scale.
The most important thing is that all of this is pointless - no one would ever try to claim that their FMC is still swooping after being grounded.

The way the gamers at my FLGS and I responded to this was if a FMC has swooped in his movement phase and is shot down, he is still moving at swooping speeds as he is crashing to the ground, and he hits the ground as the assault phase comes around. So snapfire shots are still required to hit this monster as its crashing, and the FMC can't use jink saves as it cant control itself as its crashing. which is similar to fast vehicles gaining cover in the last edition.

Thats what my thinking is.

Now, I originally thought they meant the FMC is no longer swooping. But then I thought of that exact situation.

They specifically singled out Assaulting and the Jink save. Not anything else associated with being a FMC in Swoop mode.


Not even GW is dumb enough to mess this up. They could have just said "The FMC no longer counts as Swooping when it is Grounded although it may swoop again next turn"

That would have done what is currently be arguing as RAI.

But they were very specific about what Grounding does. Hence my position.

By letter of the rules a FMC wouldn't lose its 'Hard to Hit' rule. Being Grounded only means that it can be Charged and loses its Jink rule.

That said I have played about a dozen games of 6th so far and I play it although I lose the Hard to Hit rule when I fail a Grounded test.

Signed: Regular user of 5 FMCs.

Grey Templar wrote:Not even GW is dumb enough to mess this up.

Yes.

Yes they are.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

darickrp wrote:The way the gamers at my FLGS and I responded to this was if a FMC has swooped in his movement phase and is shot down, he is still moving at swooping speeds as he is crashing to the ground, and he hits the ground as the assault phase comes around. So snapfire shots are still required to hit this monster as its crashing, and the FMC can't use jink saves as it cant control itself as its crashing. which is similar to fast vehicles gaining cover in the last edition.

So, you are saying that the FMC would have to take as many str 9 hits for as many grounding tests as it failed? So unit 1 hits it, does not wound, but it fails its grounding test. Unit 2 then shoots, it fails test again. Repear for 9 more units?

Green is Best! wrote:

Grey Templar wrote:Not even GW is dumb enough to mess this up.

Yes.

Yes they are.

So you'd like to see GW impliment play testing roughly equal to the combined total of all games played during the past fortnight? That'd take centuries.

Green is Best! wrote:
So, you are saying that the FMC would have to take as many str 9 hits for as many grounding tests as it failed? So unit 1 hits it, does not wound, but it fails its grounding test. Unit 2 then shoots, it fails test again. Repear for 9 more units?

It takes one test for each unit that hits it. UNIT, not model or shot.

Testify wrote:So you'd like to see GW impliment play testing roughly equal to the combined total of all games played during the past fortnight? That'd take centuries.

No. I would like to see them at least have someone thoroughly screen their rules for ambiguity. The list of examples from GW go well beyond this. I

Testify wrote:
It takes one test for each unit that hits it. UNIT, not model or shot.

That is what I said. Every unit that hits it causes the FMC to take a grounding test. So, if 10 units shoot at it and it fails 10 times, you are taking 10 str 9 hits? This is according to what previous posters are claiming.

My contention has been once you're grounded, you stop taking this test. But, it appears the rules lawyers have won this round because of poor rules writing by GW. See above.

It's also why strict literal reading of the rules inevitably fails- GW simple don't write their rules with that level of specificity. Heck, the most important rule is that the rules aren't that important. So the answer is it doesn't matter. Just fly the model around and shout "PEW PEW!"

I think the rule meant for the FMC to be forced into Glide Mode.

Although I kind of like the idea of my Str 3 lasguns forcing a half dozen Str 9 armor ignoring hits.

Green is Best! wrote:

Testify wrote:So you'd like to see GW impliment play testing roughly equal to the combined total of all games played during the past fortnight? That'd take centuries.

No. I would like to see them at least have someone thoroughly screen their rules for ambiguity. The list of examples from GW go well beyond this.

I can't even imagine the cost this would require, not to mention if it was even feasible. I've read fandexes that are written so as to avoid any ambiguity whatsoever, and the end result is that each paragraph is about twice as long as it should be and generally unreadable.

Green is Best! wrote:
That is what I said. Every unit that hits it causes the FMC to take a grounding test. So, if 10 units shoot at it and it fails 10 times, you are taking 10 str 9 hits? This is according to what previous posters are claiming.

My contention has been once you're grounded, you stop taking this test. But, it appears the rules lawyers have won this round because of poor rules writing by GW. See above.

Considering it's "poorly written", 99% of gamers don't have a problem understanding it.

"If a flying monstrous creature that is swooping suffers one or more hits from a unit's Shooting attack, it must make a Grounded test immediately after that shooting attack has been resolved".
That's very clear, though I can see how you'd miss it if you were skimming.

Testify wrote:

Green is Best! wrote:

Testify wrote:So you'd like to see GW impliment play testing roughly equal to the combined total of all games played during the past fortnight? That'd take centuries.

No. I would like to see them at least have someone thoroughly screen their rules for ambiguity. The list of examples from GW go well beyond this.

I can't even imagine the cost this would require, not to mention if it was even feasible. I've read fandexes that are written so as to avoid any ambiguity whatsoever, and the end result is that each paragraph is about twice as long as it should be and generally unreadable.

Green is Best! wrote:
That is what I said. Every unit that hits it causes the FMC to take a grounding test. So, if 10 units shoot at it and it fails 10 times, you are taking 10 str 9 hits? This is according to what previous posters are claiming.

My contention has been once you're grounded, you stop taking this test. But, it appears the rules lawyers have won this round because of poor rules writing by GW. See above.

Considering it's "poorly written", 99% of gamers don't have a problem understanding it.

"If a flying monstrous creature that is swooping suffers one or more hits from a unit's Shooting attack, it must make a Grounded test immediately after that shooting attack has been resolved".
That's very clear, though I can see how you'd miss it if you were skimming.

I don't think it would be very expensive to hire say, 5 or 6 experienced gamers to read the rules and playtest them from a rules lawyer kind of view. Basically, ask them to break the game wherever possible or try to find spots where things become fuzzy. Given the ridiculous amount of money GW takes from us, I don't think it is much to ask for. Additionally, if you were to ask 40k players what is their biggest gripe about the game is, I think you would have a toss up between "Matt Ward written codexes" and "ambiguously written rules." This is not the first case of rules having issues. Given this is what they do as a business, you would think they could implement some quality control.

As for the grounding test, I still don't understand your point. Most people seem to agree that once you are grounded, you stop taking the grounding test. However, based on the fact that there is nothing specifically stating you are not swooping, you could potentially be forced to take grounding tests even though you have already been grounded.

Testify wrote:

Green is Best! wrote:
That is what I said. Every unit that hits it causes the FMC to take a grounding test. So, if 10 units shoot at it and it fails 10 times, you are taking 10 str 9 hits? This is according to what previous posters are claiming.

My contention has been once you're grounded, you stop taking this test. But, it appears the rules lawyers have won this round because of poor rules writing by GW. See above.

Considering it's "poorly written", 99% of gamers don't have a problem understanding it.

"If a flying monstrous creature that is swooping suffers one or more hits from a unit's Shooting attack, it must make a Grounded test immediately after that shooting attack has been resolved".
That's very clear, though I can see how you'd miss it if you were skimming.

Green is Best is actually agreeing with you. He's pointing out that if Grounding doesn't make a FMC stop Swooping, then continuing to shoot at a Grounded, but still Swooping, FMC would cause further Grounding tests. And that would be dumb as a bunch of guns will make a Swooping FMC crash itself to death repeatedly in the same turn.

That is the direct consequence of the argument: That that flying monstrous creature can crash if you keep shooting it with more units, even though it's been grounded.

I don't think you can prove this point. GW should have made things more clear on the restrictions of getting knocked out of the sky(grounded). Intill a 6th Ed BRB FAQ comes out I don't believe we will ever figure this one out. Because without an AQ both parties are Right and wrong.

Play it way #1 FMC gets grounded by a hit. He takes a str9 hit and can be assaulted as normal. And he still benefits from snap fire because of he's falling through the sky intill the assault phase. The FMC gets grounded again, take an additional str 9 hit. So on and so forth.

Play it way #2 FMC gets grounded by a hit. He takes a str 9 hit
and can be assaulted. Snap fire rule no longer applies because the monster has hit the ground and is now stationary. But the FMC will not take any additional FREE str 9 hits.


Personally I would push to play way #1 due to I spam skyfire so I want my free str 9 hits on that bad ass flying at me. Lol

Concurring with Masos on this one.

But his number 1 isn't part of the rule. It doesn't say he falls until the assault phase. It says he crashes to the ground and takes a Str 9 hit. This is not done after all shooting is done. It's done at the time of the failed grounding role.

So you have a T7 FMC and with this RAW....

Six squads of Str 3 flashlights can make a FMC take a possible six Str 9 saves from weapons that can't hurt it.

That sounds right.

RAW, yes.

I can fluff justify it by the repeated hits knocking the FMC even more off balance with each hit, hence taking repeat Str9 hits.

You guys are all fighting each other, but you should really join arms against GW for not wording it well enough to make all of you happy. I wish we could apply common sense here, but I guess it's too late for that. I think we can all agree, NOT RAI or RAW, if something was shot out of the air, and it hit the ground and took damage, it probably would not instantaneously be back in the air. Again, common sense here, not RAI or RAW. Of course rules lawyers will argue in favor of RAW, ignoring common sense, people without models that have this ability will rail for RAI, and the intelligent people will just ask TO's ahead of tournaments and sit down with their gaming group and make a group decision before the mess even starts. But please, continue your hate war. It's almost amusing to those of us with big tubs of popcorn in front of us. You also learn a lot about people from topics such as this one, and I'm just gonna say I lost respect for some people...

Grey Templar wrote:Thats what my thinking is.

Now, I originally thought they meant the FMC is no longer swooping. But then I thought of that exact situation.

They specifically singled out Assaulting and the Jink save. Not anything else associated with being a FMC in Swoop mode.


Not even GW is dumb enough to mess this up. They could have just said "The FMC no longer counts as Swooping when it is Grounded although it may swoop again next turn"

That would have done what is currently be arguing as RAI.

But they were very specific about what Grounding does. Hence my position.

The whole "GW went out of their way to write it as X" argument is counter RAW.

Grey Templar wrote:RAW, yes.

No. The Monsterous Creature takes a grounded check if it gets hit by a ranged weapon. It takes ONE check whenever a unit successfully hits it. Hence the use of the word "a". If they had wanted it to take a grounded check for each shot, they would have put "takes a grounded test for each hit". But they didn't. They said "If it gets shot at, after resolving wounds, it takes *A* grounded test". It's pretty unambiguous.

The FMC rules are not poorly written at all, this is just a case of WAAC players trying to exploit a loophole that isn't there.
You don't need to specifiy that a FMC is no longer Swooping if it has been grounded for the same reason you do not need to specify that if a unit is dead it can no longer shoot/assault/run. One state replaces the other.

Where in the rulebook does it say when the FMC is no longer grounded? If grounded was not an exclusive state, it never ends. So Grounded Swooping Flying Monstrous Creaturess (seriously?) can be assaulted for the rest of the game and immediately loses its jink when they dives? Seeing as GW "clearly went out of their way not to say" grounding ends when the model moves normally (what is normally?) this must be the case?

Anyone following the rule to act in the spirit of the game should be able to tell that Grounded is a third state for Flying Monstrous Creatures. "Becomes" indicates a change of state from one state to another. If you become rich you are no longer poor. If you become fat you are no longer thin. If you become WAAC you are no longer fun to play against. If you become Grounded you are no longer Swooping.

Eldarguy88 wrote:Where in the rulebook does it say when the FMC is no longer grounded? If grounded was not an exclusive state, it never ends. So Grounded Swooping Flying Monstrous Creaturess (seriously?) can be assaulted for the rest of the game and immediately loses its jink when they dives? Seeing as GW "clearly went out of their way not to say" grounding ends when the model moves normally (what is normally?) this must be the case?

You are free to interprit the rules as you wish. If you wish to take that interpretation, that is fine.
You have no evidence to support it, however.

So to sum up.

If you believe grounded does not remove swooping, the MC:
* still has Hard to Hit, but loses any jink save it might have had;
* can be repeatedly forced to take grounding tests, although only once for each unit firing at it;
* if assaulted and remains locked in assault, dies instantly in its next movement, as it can't move, but is already in assault.

If you believe grounded does remove swooping, the MC:
* loses Hard to Hit and any jink save it might have had;
* does not have to take any other grounded tests;
* fights normally in assault in the next phase and there after.

Correct?

With that, I'm killing the thread - there's nothing further to discuss here, and some posters are getting awfully free with throwing disparaging labels at people with contrary viewpoints.