Brilliant! This kid seems to be purposely assisting me in my quest to have prisons only serve two meals a day, not be heated, and return the lags to hard labour.
A man who shot dead an Indian student in Greater Manchester has told a court: "Lock me up for 65 years."
Kiaran Stapleton, 21, admits shooting Anuj Bidve in Salford on Boxing Day but denies murder.
When the prosecution asked if he hoped psychiatric reports would prevent him being jailed, he said: "To be honest, I'm not bothered."
He told Manchester Crown Court: "I love prison. I watch Coronation Street. I have got a fat canteen."
"I love prison. Lock me up for 65 years."
'I'm not bothered'
Looking to the jury from the witness box, he added: "Does this face look bothered?
"I have even got a new rug and bedding coming for my cell. I'm not bothered."
I couldnt help but think of the Catherine Tate show, with that little gak who always says "I aint bovvered though!"
Seriously.. if some little gak comes out with this kinda crap to the judge, can't we just throw them in a proper prison? Couldn't we deport him to Thailand or somewhere that actually has prisons that are remotely unpleasant?
Not Thailand....I recommend Afghanistan prison...What happens in their prison stays in their prison....we could lie and say he has possible intell but not in rush to get it.
I'm in favour of turning a remote island off the western coast of Scotland into a prison for any violent criminals.
No TV or games consoles. Cold, damp, and miserable. Manual labour available if they want to get some fresh air.
I'm not in favour of the gulag approach or squishing them all in like battery hens, but there's no reason it should be as comfortable as it currently is for murderers.
If I can't afford to have my heating on in winter, then prisoners shouldn't be getting that luxury either.
Also, there is currently an island prison in Norway which takes this exact approach and has very low re-offending rates.
Why waste an island? Why not a stretch of open sea, we have lots of that.
Bring back the Victorian era H blocks ie no electrickery and without the netting to stop them from casting one another of the second floor balcony from time to time.
It didn't do Ronnie Barker any harm, he had quite a successful acting carreer after serving his time in HMP Slade.
He knows full well how his comments will be interpreted.
It's true though that prison isn't much of a deterrent - but a criminal record certainly is. Hence once you go to prison once, you have no incentive to not re-offend.
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Palindrome wrote:
p_gray99 wrote:It's meant to be a fething punishment, not a cosy hotel!
Actually it is meant to be a punishment and rehabilitation. People always seem to forget the second bit though, not least the government.
I'm pretty liberal in a lot of ways, but I have no idea why people insist that everyone can be rehabilited.They can't.
In fact I'd say people who CAN be rehabilitated are the minority.
Seriously.. if some little gak comes out with this kinda crap to the judge, can't we just throw them in a proper prison? Couldn't we deport him to Thailand or somewhere that actually has prisons that are remotely unpleasant?
Throw him into a Thai prison? Jesus, this kid is such a moron that his only possible use to humanity would be to throw him into a meat-grinder and use him to make that pepperoni they put on the top of Goodfella's Pizzas, like they do with tramps.
Mannahnin wrote:Not everyone can be rehabilitated. But virtually every criminal can be made worse, nastier, and more brutal by brutal treatment in prison.
This exactly.
Punishment based prisons don't work if we ever intend to release the criminals within.
Box him up and ship him to Louisiana, we'll send him to the Farm(Louisiana State Penitentiary, more commonly known as Angola). Let's see how he enjoys forced farming(and sexual slavery among prisoners) in the South and how it compares to his little prison show.
scarletsquig wrote:I'm in favour of turning a remote island off the western coast of Scotland into a prison for any violent criminals.
No TV or games consoles. Cold, damp, and miserable. Manual labour available if they want to get some fresh air.
I'm not in favour of the gulag approach or squishing them all in like battery hens, but there's no reason it should be as comfortable as it currently is for murderers.
If I can't afford to have my heating on in winter, then prisoners shouldn't be getting that luxury either.
Also, there is currently an island prison in Norway which takes this exact approach and has very low re-offending rates.
This approach works until somebody manages to bribe the guards, blow a hole in the side and allow everyone inside to escape.
Platuan4th wrote:Box him up and ship him to Louisiana, we'll send him to the Farm(Louisiana State Penitentiary, more commonly known as Angola). Let's see how he enjoys forced farming(and sexual slavery among prisoners) in the South and how it compares to his little prison show.
Platuan4th wrote:Box him up and ship him to Louisiana, we'll send him to the Farm(Louisiana State Penitentiary, more commonly known as Angola). Let's see how he enjoys forced farming(and sexual slavery among prisoners) in the South and how it compares to his little prison show.
Suggesting rape as a punishment isnt okay.
This is where we come for our two minutes hate. It's not supposed to be rational.
Platuan4th wrote:Box him up and ship him to Louisiana, we'll send him to the Farm(Louisiana State Penitentiary, more commonly known as Angola). Let's see how he enjoys forced farming(and sexual slavery among prisoners) in the South and how it compares to his little prison show.
Suggesting rape as a punishment isnt okay.
This is where we come for our two minutes hate. It's not supposed to be rational.
Still for some things there is neither a time nor place.
Platuan4th wrote:Box him up and ship him to Louisiana, we'll send him to the Farm(Louisiana State Penitentiary, more commonly known as Angola). Let's see how he enjoys forced farming(and sexual slavery among prisoners) in the South and how it compares to his little prison show.
Suggesting rape as a punishment isnt okay.
This is where we come for our two minutes hate. It's not supposed to be rational.
Still for some things there is neither a time nor place.
Medium of Death wrote:I'm not sure why UK Prisons have TV and other luxury items, it's not part of your 'human rights' to have a TV, central heating and carpeted floors.
mattyrm wrote:The Americans have the right idea, and America is a civilised country, why the feth cant Europeans have prisons like in the States?
I watched Louis Theroux when he was in jail, those prisons really sucked.. 16 guys in one cell and gak like that?
We need to get more American and have these scumbags living in gak.
Coronation Street indeed!
There's a fun documentary on YouTube about Russian prisons... although it had been whitewashed for the Western media it was pretty obvious that the cellmates feared for their lives
I don't think Capital Punishment is Idiotic, but Hislop makes a good point for keep people in jail for life instead of killing them.
Edit: Further Clarification.
Removing somebody completely from society, silencing their voice through imprisonment is a greater punishment than killing them. Prisons just need to be tougher for this to actually work.
If prison costs were reduced I think Capital Punishment support would finally trail off.
Lord Rogukiel wrote:In Soviet Russia, prison is actually scary.
As a general rule, the worse conditions are in a nation's prisons, the less likely you are to have actually committed the offence that you're in there for.
I don't think Capital Punishment is Idiotic, but Hislop makes a good point for keep people in jail for life instead of killing them.
(Can't watch as I'm at work... but I promise that I shall!)
I linked Gallows as a more iconic image... I'm actually against the death penalty. It's just harder to post a picture that gives connotations of an eternity spent in perpetual misery.
I mean that's what life in prison should be; being hung from a wall begging for death as maggots chew at your rotting feet but being ever-sustained just from the edge of death. *That's* suffering, death is a merciful way out after that :p
I don't think Capital Punishment is Idiotic, but Hislop makes a good point for keep people in jail for life instead of killing them.
(Can't watch as I'm at work... but I promise that I shall!)
I linked Gallows as a more iconic image... I'm actually against the death penalty. It's just harder to post a picture that gives connotations of an eternity spent in perpetual misery.
I mean that's what life in prison should be; being hung from a wall begging for death as maggots chew at your rotting feet but being ever-sustained just from the edge of death. *That's* suffering, death is a merciful way out after that :p
But...why? Anyone who left a place like that would be a wretch by the time they left and probably incapable of living in society in any form whatsoever.
Removing somebody completely from society, silencing their voice through imprisonment is a greater punishment than killing them. Prisons just need to be tougher for this to actually work.
If prison costs were reduced I think Capital Punishment support would finally trail off.
I agree with Ian Hislop in the main, but feth me.. WHY does prison have to be COMFY?!
I'm not saying kill everyone, but when I was based at 40 commando, we lived in 6 man flats when we were in the UK, it was fine. 6 beds, 3 showers and a kitchen. Why do prisoners share a cell with one guy? Why not 8 guys? Or Ten guys?
And in Afghanistan.. fething hell! It was like the Ritz compared to Iraq, we had cold running water for one shower between 100 of us, fold up camping beds and one hot meal a day.. It was glorious. In Iraq it was shower by standing on a pallet and pouring half a bottle of water over your head, soap up, rinse it off with the other half. Live in a fething hole under a poncho, and eat boil in the bag rations.. for 11 weeks this went on!
If I can happily do all of the above, these mother fethers can live more spartanly.
gak, the big softie that I am, I will even let them have heated showers and two hot meals a day.
But why not, say.. 12 man dorm rooms, no TV, no internet, porridge for breakfast, cold mid-day meal, decent dinner.. something like that?
I dont want to over think it, im just making a point. The fethers should be clothed and fed and watered, but not fething bragging about how nice jail is cos they get to watch fething Coronation Street!
Hippie pinko liberals (Labour) always seem to decide you are arguing for the death penalty when you even mention that jail seems to be too bloody easy, and I'm not!
I'm simply saying, is it against your "human rights" to merely have a "decent" standard of living in prison? Why the feth do they get to watch television for example!?
I completely agree with your points, I posted Hislop in response to Henners.
I don't think 8-10 people per cell works though, if you watch Louis' documentary it seems to say that.
The problem with large cells is that it seems to give some of the prisoners a sense of authority/society within the prison, which is probably why you see more prison gangs in the USA versus the UK. By keeping them away from as many people as possible and the State deciding when and who they interact with you assert control over them.
I agree with a lot of what Matty said. My old Principal said that the only 2 rights we had were the right to live and the right to a fair trial. I agree with those for prisoners, you have your fair trial and your alive. A shelter is provided as is food. Cereal for breakfast, sandwich for lunch and hot meal for dinner. You have facilities to use to wash and clothes are provided. What more do they need?
I do think as well though for extreme cases; genocide, treason, war crimes, mass killers like Brevik the death penalty is the option to go. The rest, prison. Those on minor sentences should be on work crews in the area (chain gang style). Serious offenders under lock and key.
For me that is what prison should be. Stone floored, blankets, camp beds and thin pillow to sleep on.
I don't think Capital Punishment is Idiotic, but Hislop makes a good point for keep people in jail for life instead of killing them.
(Can't watch as I'm at work... but I promise that I shall!)
I linked Gallows as a more iconic image... I'm actually against the death penalty. It's just harder to post a picture that gives connotations of an eternity spent in perpetual misery.
I mean that's what life in prison should be; being hung from a wall begging for death as maggots chew at your rotting feet but being ever-sustained just from the edge of death. *That's* suffering, death is a merciful way out after that :p
But...why? Anyone who left a place like that would be a wretch by the time they left and probably incapable of living in society in any form whatsoever.
Maybe we don't want them in society
Prison should not be pleasent.
Now, rehabilitation for petty criminals is a good idea, but serious repeat offenders should get locked up in horrible places and never see the light of day again.
Three strikes and your locked away for good, and in the least expensive way possable.
I am a firm believer that criminal acts should result in the suspension of your civil rights, all of them. You don't want to play by the rules, then the rules will no longer apply to you.
youbedead wrote:Repeat offenders are caused by bad prisons, also I'd rather have prisoners in comfy cells then the private for profit prisons in the US.
Ummm, no.
If you don't want to go back, you won't do what sent you there again.
And we won't have repeat offenders if they arn't let out to repeat the crime.
And the people who wouldn't be stopped are the ones that are beyond help, and they are ones that should never walk out.
Prisons are a joke in the modern world. Our worst criminals get the best prisons, and our not so bad ones get stuck in the really bad prisons.
We should provide only basic medical care, same meal twice a day, and sparten cells. Nothing that could be seen as nice or even tolerable.
Platuan4th wrote:Box him up and ship him to Louisiana, we'll send him to the Farm(Louisiana State Penitentiary, more commonly known as Angola). Let's see how he enjoys forced farming(and sexual slavery among prisoners) in the South and how it compares to his little prison show.
Suggesting rape as a punishment ain't okay.
No one is suggesting it. But it DOES happen in American prisons with frightening regularity.
My point, because you missed it to focus on a single throwaway comment that is one of the reasons that people want to CLOSE Angola for, was that if he thinks that prison is a cushy, friendly place that he thinks he'd enjoy, don't send him to one with that sort of reputation.
So everyone's just taking him at his word, is that it? Seems to me there's probably a lot of bravado going on there. Big man, isn't scared of prison, "I don't care, whatevs." Not so convinced that he isn't bothered. He said it so many times - methinks the lady dost protest to much, and all that.
youbedead wrote:Repeat offenders are caused by bad prisons, also I'd rather have prisoners in comfy cells then the private for profit prisons in the US.
Ummm, no.
If you don't want to go back, you won't do what sent you there again.
And we won't have repeat offenders if they arn't let out to repeat the crime.
And the people who wouldn't be stopped are the ones that are beyond help, and they are ones that should never walk out.
Prisons are a joke in the modern world. Our worst criminals get the best prisons, and our not so bad ones get stuck in the really bad prisons.
We should provide only basic medical care, same meal twice a day, and sparten cells. Nothing that could be seen as nice or even tolerable.
Um yes, the worse a prisoner is treated the more likely it is that they'll become a repeat offender, I know that this might seem contradictory. Shouldn't prisons be so horrible that you never want go back?
The problem is that the evidence doesn't support that.
The national recidivism rate in the United States is 67.5 percent according to information from the Bureau of Justice Statistics
Recidivism is when an individual released from prison re-offends and returns to prison. It is the most accurate internationally comparable measurement of how successful a particular correctional system is. To evaluate the US system, let's compare recidivism rates in some other countries:
Sweden's national recidivism rate is 35 percent (Source).
According to a report from The Japan Times, Japan reached an all-time high recidivism rate in 2006, 38,8 percent (Article in The Japan Times).
Here (Article) is a very well written article about recidivism rates in Finland during 1993-2001, covering a wide variety of specific population groups. The article is in English.
Canada's recidivism rate is roughlt 35 percent for men and 20 percent for women (Study Canadian Recidivism - PDF).
Information about recidivism and other prison related statistics for Nebraska is available at Nebraska Department of Correctional Services web site.
youbedead wrote:Repeat offenders are caused by bad prisons, also I'd rather have prisoners in comfy cells then the private for profit prisons in the US.
Ummm, no.
If you don't want to go back, you won't do what sent you there again.
And we won't have repeat offenders if they arn't let out to repeat the crime.
And the people who wouldn't be stopped are the ones that are beyond help, and they are ones that should never walk out.
Prisons are a joke in the modern world. Our worst criminals get the best prisons, and our not so bad ones get stuck in the really bad prisons.
We should provide only basic medical care, same meal twice a day, and sparten cells. Nothing that could be seen as nice or even tolerable.
Um yes, the worse a prisoner is treated the more likely it is that they'll become a repeat offender, I know that this might seem contradictory. Shouldn't prisons be so horrible that you never want go back?
The problem is that the evidence doesn't support that.
The national recidivism rate in the United States is 67.5 percent according to information from the Bureau of Justice Statistics
Recidivism is when an individual released from prison re-offends and returns to prison. It is the most accurate internationally comparable measurement of how successful a particular correctional system is. To evaluate the US system, let's compare recidivism rates in some other countries:
Sweden's national recidivism rate is 35 percent (Source).
According to a report from The Japan Times, Japan reached an all-time high recidivism rate in 2006, 38,8 percent (Article in The Japan Times).
Here (Article) is a very well written article about recidivism rates in Finland during 1993-2001, covering a wide variety of specific population groups. The article is in English.
Canada's recidivism rate is roughlt 35 percent for men and 20 percent for women (Study Canadian Recidivism - PDF).
Information about recidivism and other prison related statistics for Nebraska is available at Nebraska Department of Correctional Services web site.
Nations that treat there prisoners better have lower recidivism
It could also be that the nations mentioned in that report have social welfare nets that are largely absent in the United States. A prisoner released in Sweden or Japan has the option of living on state welfare for a while. Prisoners released in the U.S. generally have to immediately get a job or starve. And since getting jobs is difficult for convicted felons, they often turn back to crime as a simple method of survival.
I don't think Capital Punishment is Idiotic, but Hislop makes a good point for keep people in jail for life instead of killing them.
(Can't watch as I'm at work... but I promise that I shall!)
I linked Gallows as a more iconic image... I'm actually against the death penalty. It's just harder to post a picture that gives connotations of an eternity spent in perpetual misery.
I mean that's what life in prison should be; being hung from a wall begging for death as maggots chew at your rotting feet but being ever-sustained just from the edge of death. *That's* suffering, death is a merciful way out after that :p
But...why? Anyone who left a place like that would be a wretch by the time they left and probably incapable of living in society in any form whatsoever.
They don't leave. They got life
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Medium of Death wrote:I completely agree with your points, I posted Hislop in response to Henners.
I don't think 8-10 people per cell works though, if you watch Louis' documentary it seems to say that.
The problem with large cells is that it seems to give some of the prisoners a sense of authority/society within the prison, which is probably why you see more prison gangs in the USA versus the UK. By keeping them away from as many people as possible and the State deciding when and who they interact with you assert control over them.
Platuan4th wrote:Box him up and ship him to Louisiana, we'll send him to the Farm(Louisiana State Penitentiary, more commonly known as Angola). Let's see how he enjoys forced farming(and sexual slavery among prisoners) in the South and how it compares to his little prison show.
Suggesting rape as a punishment ain't okay.
No one is suggesting it. But it DOES happen in American prisons with frightening regularity.
My point, because you missed it to focus on a single throwaway comment that is one of the reasons that people want to CLOSE Angola for, was that if he thinks that prison is a cushy, friendly place that he thinks he'd enjoy, don't send him to one with that sort of reputation.
Actually, you did suggest it. Part of your post is that he should go to that prison because they'll rape him there. So ya, you did say that.
Platuan4th wrote:Box him up and ship him to Louisiana, we'll send him to the Farm(Louisiana State Penitentiary, more commonly known as Angola). Let's see how he enjoys forced farming(and sexual slavery among prisoners) in the South and how it compares to his little prison show.
Suggesting rape as a punishment ain't okay.
No one is suggesting it. But it DOES happen in American prisons with frightening regularity.
My point, because you missed it to focus on a single throwaway comment that is one of the reasons that people want to CLOSE Angola for, was that if he thinks that prison is a cushy, friendly place that he thinks he'd enjoy, don't send him to one with that sort of reputation.
Actually, you did suggest it. Part of your post is that he should go to that prison because they'll rape him there. So ya, you did say that.
If that's how you choose to read it, good on ya. It's obviously something I said tongue in cheek(hence, it being a throwaway comment), but toneless internet and all that.
No one from Louisiana would ever honestly(read: as anything but a joke) suggest sending someone to Angola unless they did something really heinous. Judges don't send you there to rehabilitate you, they send you there to forget about you, because you tend not to be getting out. When any state suggests prison reforms, Angola is the comparison they tend to use because of its reputation for how badly prisoners are treated there.
scarletsquig wrote:I'm in favour of turning a remote island off the western coast of Scotland into a prison for any violent criminals.
No TV or games consoles. Cold, damp, and miserable. Manual labour available if they want to get some fresh air.
I'm not in favour of the gulag approach or squishing them all in like battery hens, but there's no reason it should be as comfortable as it currently is for murderers.
If I can't afford to have my heating on in winter, then prisoners shouldn't be getting that luxury either.
Also, there is currently an island prison in Norway which takes this exact approach and has very low re-offending rates.
If you're referring to Bastøy they allow iPods for the prisoners and certainly have heating during winter. In fact, Bastøy is arguably more comfortable than a normal prison.
youbedead wrote:Repeat offenders are caused by bad prisons, also I'd rather have prisoners in comfy cells then the private for profit prisons in the US.
Ummm, no.
If you don't want to go back, you won't do what sent you there again.
And we won't have repeat offenders if they arn't let out to repeat the crime.
And the people who wouldn't be stopped are the ones that are beyond help, and they are ones that should never walk out.
Prisons are a joke in the modern world. Our worst criminals get the best prisons, and our not so bad ones get stuck in the really bad prisons.
We should provide only basic medical care, same meal twice a day, and sparten cells. Nothing that could be seen as nice or even tolerable.
Um yes, the worse a prisoner is treated the more likely it is that they'll become a repeat offender, I know that this might seem contradictory. Shouldn't prisons be so horrible that you never want go back?
The problem is that the evidence doesn't support that.
The national recidivism rate in the United States is 67.5 percent according to information from the Bureau of Justice Statistics
Recidivism is when an individual released from prison re-offends and returns to prison. It is the most accurate internationally comparable measurement of how successful a particular correctional system is. To evaluate the US system, let's compare recidivism rates in some other countries:
Sweden's national recidivism rate is 35 percent (Source).
According to a report from The Japan Times, Japan reached an all-time high recidivism rate in 2006, 38,8 percent (Article in The Japan Times).
Here (Article) is a very well written article about recidivism rates in Finland during 1993-2001, covering a wide variety of specific population groups. The article is in English.
Canada's recidivism rate is roughlt 35 percent for men and 20 percent for women (Study Canadian Recidivism - PDF).
Information about recidivism and other prison related statistics for Nebraska is available at Nebraska Department of Correctional Services web site.
Nations that treat there prisoners better have lower recidivism
That is correlation, not causation.
The real reason is, as deathholydeath pointed out, that serious criminals are discriminated against and have no safety net. The discrimination part is certaintly justified.
And for alot of criminals, prison is better then being back home. Lots of criminals are homeless or live in impoverished areas. If prison was worse then their situation at home, we would see crime drop.
So something I'm curious about regarding the death penalty: Lots of people have been found innocent or at least their guilt called into question enough to reverse the death penalty due to DNA evidence. A lot of them seem to be people who were convicted before using DNA evidence was available. But since DNA evidence has become available, has anyone been convicted and sentenced with the help of DNA evidence and then been found innocent? A lot of critics talk about how the death penalty is wrong because so many people have been wrongly convicted. Obviously, the system is still not perfect, but it seems like, if anything, being able to accurately determine guilt or innocence has become a lot more reliable since the advent of DNA evidence.
Grey Templar wrote:
If you don't want to go back, you won't do what sent you there again.
What, get caught?
If everyone who ever committed a crime was locked up for it, society would collapse. More than half of the population would be in prison.
Even people who commit "proper" crimes have a very, very small chance of being caught. Someone who sees red and rapes his girlfriend isn't going to be deterred by any prison.
And for alot of criminals, prison is better then being back home. Lots of criminals are homeless or live in impoverished areas. If prison was worse then their situation at home, we would see crime drop.
Just like how the death penality has reduced the murder rate; wait a second......
The only real way of reducing reoffending rates is to properly rehabilitate criminals when they are in prison and to provide them with a high level of support once they have left. As this is expensive governments (egged on by the press) fall back on the more traditional approach to imprisonment, despite the fact that it has never worked.
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Testify wrote:
If everyone who ever committed a crime was locked up for it, society would collapse. More than half of the population would be in prison.
Everyone, or as near as damn it, has commited at least 1 crime. In such an ordered and regulated society as ours it is inevitable.
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Hordini wrote:So something I'm curious about regarding the death penalty: Lots of people have been found innocent or at least their guilt called into question enough to reverse the death penalty due to DNA evidence. A lot of them seem to be people who were convicted before using DNA evidence was available. But since DNA evidence has become available, has anyone been convicted and sentenced with the help of DNA evidence and then been found innocent? A lot of critics talk about how the death penalty is wrong because so many people have been wrongly convicted. Obviously, the system is still not perfect, but it seems like, if anything, being able to accurately determine guilt or innocence has become a lot more reliable since the advent of DNA evidence.
While DNA evidence can be very useful it is far from infallible, while the theory is sound there will always be an element of human error. In addition there are technical limitations, certain markers are more common in certain ethinic groups which can seriously alter the statistics of a sample being deemed to come from the defendant for example. DNA evidence by itself can't lead to a conviction, well it couldn't in the UK 5 years or so ago but I doubt that things have changed since.
And for alot of criminals, prison is better then being back home. Lots of criminals are homeless or live in impoverished areas. If prison was worse then their situation at home, we would see crime drop.
Just like how the death penality has reduced the murder rate; wait a second......
The only real way of reducing reoffending rates is to properly rehabilitate criminals when they are in prison and to provide them with a high level of support once they have left. As this is expensive governments (egged on by the press) fall back on the more traditional approach to imprisonment, despite the fact that it has never worked.
The US really doesn't have a Death penelty. We have a "life in prison waiting for appeal after appeal and eventually you get executed at the age of 95" penelty.
Until our DP is a "You have one year to proove your innocence before its lights out" it won't be an effective deterrent.
@grey templar- you haven't shown a single piece of evidence to support you arguments. There have been tons of studies showing what reduces recidivism and crime rates, and none of them support the belief that harsh prisons = lower crime rates.
Palindrome wrote:Just like how the death penality has reduced the murder rate; wait a second......
The murder rate is the lowest, in the US, that it has been in decades.
I am not making a statement about the efficacy of the death penalty, but you should be careful what you say when you haven't done research on the statistics
Palindrome wrote:Just like how the death penality has reduced the murder rate; wait a second......
The murder rate is the lowest, in the US, that it has been in decades.
I am not making a statement about the efficacy of the death penalty, but you should be careful what you say when you haven't done research on the statistics
Melissia wrote:A cute partial selection of states, but looking for a single reason why any particular state has a high murder rate is stupid.
So I'm not on your ignore list after all then.
The individual murder rates don't matter, what is interesting is that the death penalty doesn't seem to have a deterent effect. Its obviously hard to prove conclusively as there will be a host of factors which are difficult to control for..
Also notice the top executing states tend to have larger metropolitan areas than those that don't. Also note that Michigan is home to Detroit, a large metropolitan area and has a similar murder rate compared to the executing states.
And of course Alaska just makes people crazy Too much ice
mattyrm wrote:
I'm not saying kill everyone, but when I was based at 40 commando, we lived in 6 man flats when we were in the UK, it was fine. 6 beds, 3 showers and a kitchen. Why do prisoners share a cell with one guy? Why not 8 guys? Or Ten guys?
And in Afghanistan.. fething hell! It was like the Ritz compared to Iraq, we had cold running water for one shower between 100 of us, fold up camping beds and one hot meal a day.. It was glorious. In Iraq it was shower by standing on a pallet and pouring half a bottle of water over your head, soap up, rinse it off with the other half. Live in a fething hole under a poncho, and eat boil in the bag rations.. for 11 weeks this went on!
If I can happily do all of the above, these mother fethers can live more spartanly.
gak, the big softie that I am, I will even let them have heated showers and two hot meals a day.
But why not, say.. 12 man dorm rooms, no TV, no internet, porridge for breakfast, cold mid-day meal, decent dinner.. something like that?
I dont want to over think it, im just making a point. The fethers should be clothed and fed and watered, but not fething bragging about how nice jail is cos they get to watch fething Coronation Street!
Hippie pinko liberals (Labour) always seem to decide you are arguing for the death penalty when you even mention that jail seems to be too bloody easy, and I'm not!
I'm simply saying, is it against your "human rights" to merely have a "decent" standard of living in prison? Why the feth do they get to watch television for example!?
Guh, funny story about my first trip into Iraq - I was with a node center (commo) , so they kept us in Kuwait for the whole "war" part of things, since every time they brought a reserve/nasty girl unit in to RIP us they couldn't get their gak to work. Once it all died down my battalion commander wanted all 'his units' in iraq (for whatever the feth reason), so we went and spent about two months in Baghdad for no reason what so ever. We had no mission, no reason to be there. They collected everyones bottled water and MREs that they had brought up with them into a communal pool. I, being the unrecognized genius that I am said "F that." and kept all of mine for myself. After about eight days the girls had used all of our bottled water to shower with, and everyone was drinking the overly chemicalized buffalo (if you weren't in the military this won't make sense to you, let it go or google it) water that dumb asses kept leaving open so it was all full of probably malarial and west niley mosquitoes.
But yeah, since we were on an old VIP compound full of lakes, the pipes to which we blew the F up, we were in 115+ temps with 98%+ humidity as we were surrounded by evaporating lakes. With poisonous water.
That should be prison, because it was pure hell. We played a game where we would leave our big wrenches out in the sun for a few hours, then see who could hold them the longest. That is the kind of gak prisoners ought to be doing, just to deal with the ridiculous boredom, not working out and watching TV.
Oh yeah, sorry, for the uninitiated - in the context I used it RIP stands for Relieve In Place - IE take over our job.
and Nasty Girl stands for National Guard, in case you couldn't pick that up from context - at the start of the whole argument with Iraq/Afghanistan, most Reserve and National Guard units were full of incompetent bunglers, and our active duty units were shrunk down to where we needed them to prosecute a campaign (thanks Clinton) - it got better after a few years though as they got experience.
Triple Edit - this is a Water Buffalo, according to the military
scarletsquig wrote:I'm in favour of turning a remote island off the western coast of Scotland into a prison for any violent criminals.
No TV or games consoles. Cold, damp, and miserable. Manual labour available if they want to get some fresh air.
I'm not in favour of the gulag approach or squishing them all in like battery hens, but there's no reason it should be as comfortable as it currently is for murderers.
If I can't afford to have my heating on in winter, then prisoners shouldn't be getting that luxury either.
Also, there is currently an island prison in Norway which takes this exact approach and has very low re-offending rates.
If you're referring to Bastøy they allow iPods for the prisoners and certainly have heating during winter. In fact, Bastøy is arguably more comfortable than a normal prison.
It also has the lowest re-offending rate of any prison in the world. There seems to be some luxuries, but also combined with a lot of getting them outdoors and working, which does work well for low-risk prisoners.
Seems to have both carrots and sticks there and gets good results. A windswept island off the coast of Norway can only be so comfortable.
Hordini wrote:So something I'm curious about regarding the death penalty: Lots of people have been found innocent or at least their guilt called into question enough to reverse the death penalty due to DNA evidence. A lot of them seem to be people who were convicted before using DNA evidence was available. But since DNA evidence has become available, has anyone been convicted and sentenced with the help of DNA evidence and then been found innocent? A lot of critics talk about how the death penalty is wrong because so many people have been wrongly convicted. Obviously, the system is still not perfect, but it seems like, if anything, being able to accurately determine guilt or innocence has become a lot more reliable since the advent of DNA evidence.
While DNA evidence can be very useful it is far from infallible, while the theory is sound there will always be an element of human error. In addition there are technical limitations, certain markers are more common in certain ethinic groups which can seriously alter the statistics of a sample being deemed to come from the defendant for example. DNA evidence by itself can't lead to a conviction, well it couldn't in the UK 5 years or so ago but I doubt that things have changed since.
There are then also lots of other factors involved in the use of DNA evidence at a trial.
When/Where/How the DNA was collected, Chemical contamination at the scene, Legitimate reason for there being DNA in the location it was found...and similar occurences.
DNA is great for identifying people, without there being contamination or something similar, but that identification doesnt necessarily mean a whole lot.
Since 1989, DNA testing has been responsible for the exonerations of 289 people in the United States, including 17 who served time on death row, according to The Innocence Project.
Among the registry's major findings:
•Of the 416 homicide exonerations, 64% were attributed, at least in part, to perjury or false accusation. Official misconduct by either prosecutors or police, including the withholding of evidence favorable to the suspect, was a contributor in 56% of the cases.
•In the registry's 203 sexual assault cases, 80% involved mistaken eyewitness identification.
•Faulty witness identification was a factor in 81% of 47 robbery cases.
Gross said much of the misconduct involved the failure to disclose information or evidence that might have been helpful to the defendants.
Wrongful convictions represent "our worst nightmare," Burns said. "One is one too many. But I would argue the system is working quite well."
reds8n wrote:•Of the 416 homicide exonerations, 64% were attributed, at least in part, to perjury or false accusation. Official misconduct by either prosecutors or police, including the withholding of evidence favorable to the suspect, was a contributor in 56% of the cases.
This doesn't help my dislike of cops one tiny bit.
Since 1989, DNA testing has been responsible for the exonerations of 289 people in the United States, including 17 who served time on death row, according to The Innocence Project.
Among the registry's major findings:
•Of the 416 homicide exonerations, 64% were attributed, at least in part, to perjury or false accusation. Official misconduct by either prosecutors or police, including the withholding of evidence favorable to the suspect, was a contributor in 56% of the cases.
•In the registry's 203 sexual assault cases, 80% involved mistaken eyewitness identification.
•Faulty witness identification was a factor in 81% of 47 robbery cases.
Gross said much of the misconduct involved the failure to disclose information or evidence that might have been helpful to the defendants.
Wrongful convictions represent "our worst nightmare," Burns said. "One is one too many. But I would argue the system is working quite well."
Wasnt saying it wasnt useful...
Kovnik Obama wrote:
reds8n wrote:•Of the 416 homicide exonerations, 64% were attributed, at least in part, to perjury or false accusation. Official misconduct by either prosecutors or police, including the withholding of evidence favorable to the suspect, was a contributor in 56% of the cases.
This doesn't help my dislike of cops one tiny bit.
Since 1989, DNA testing has been responsible for the exonerations of 289 people in the United States, including 17 who served time on death row, according to The Innocence Project.
Among the registry's major findings:
•Of the 416 homicide exonerations, 64% were attributed, at least in part, to perjury or false accusation. Official misconduct by either prosecutors or police, including the withholding of evidence favorable to the suspect, was a contributor in 56% of the cases.
•In the registry's 203 sexual assault cases, 80% involved mistaken eyewitness identification.
•Faulty witness identification was a factor in 81% of 47 robbery cases.
Gross said much of the misconduct involved the failure to disclose information or evidence that might have been helpful to the defendants.
Wrongful convictions represent "our worst nightmare," Burns said. "One is one too many. But I would argue the system is working quite well."
Just backs up my theory on US cops. Entierly baised on US crime drama compaired to UK crime drama and the Police camera shows, that police in the US havd an attitude of "we arrested the guy so he must be guilty, now lets make the evidence fit that".
Back on topic, its clear from the all the stuff the guy was saying that he was talking BS and just showing off. Its a gangland attitude of saying "ye, they can't don nothing to me. Prison, it don't scare me". The US has a massive problem with prison violence and gang problems. Too often people go in with convictions for things like shop lifting and minor drug offenses and come out violent and distrusful of a system that put them in that situation.
Harsh prisons have been shown time and again not to work. Moreso when you talk about people from troubled backgrounds. People who have only ever known violence and neglect. To many kids involved in crime prison dose seem like a step up, as its clean, they get propper food and some form of structure and protection from violence. When you look at an 18 year old that has known nothing but violence and poverty at home, you can't expect them to be less violent if you lock them away and treat them like an animal. They will just lash out more.
scarletsquig wrote:I'm in favour of turning a remote island off the western coast of Scotland into a prison for any violent criminals.
No TV or games consoles. Cold, damp, and miserable. Manual labour available if they want to get some fresh air.
I'm not in favour of the gulag approach or squishing them all in like battery hens, but there's no reason it should be as comfortable as it currently is for murderers.
If I can't afford to have my heating on in winter, then prisoners shouldn't be getting that luxury either.
Also, there is currently an island prison in Norway which takes this exact approach and has very low re-offending rates.
If you're referring to Bastøy they allow iPods for the prisoners and certainly have heating during winter. In fact, Bastøy is arguably more comfortable than a normal prison.
It also has the lowest re-offending rate of any prison in the world. There seems to be some luxuries, but also combined with a lot of getting them outdoors and working, which does work well for low-risk prisoners.
Seems to have both carrots and sticks there and gets good results. A windswept island off the coast of Norway can only be so comfortable.
Oh, I'm not disagreeing about how effective it is, just that it's not an island out in the middle of nowhere with no comfort at all. Hell, if it's a cold enough winter the inmates could literally walk off the island without being stopped.
I saw we make them fight to the death for their freedom, and only 1 can be free. Then we can make the matches either payer view or just on TV, with commercials and merchandise and the whole 9. Make a crap load of money off of it, AND get rid of the massive prison population.
Bromsy wrote:
Guh, funny story about my first trip into Iraq - I was with a node center (commo) , so they kept us in Kuwait for the whole "war" part of things, since every time they brought a reserve/nasty girl unit in to RIP us they couldn't get their gak to work. Once it all died down my battalion commander wanted all 'his units' in iraq (for whatever the feth reason), so we went and spent about two months in Baghdad for no reason what so ever. We had no mission, no reason to be there. They collected everyones bottled water and MREs that they had brought up with them into a communal pool. I, being the unrecognized genius that I am said "F that." and kept all of mine for myself. After about eight days the girls had used all of our bottled water to shower with, and everyone was drinking the overly chemicalized buffalo (if you weren't in the military this won't make sense to you, let it go or google it) water that dumb asses kept leaving open so it was all full of probably malarial and west niley mosquitoes.
But yeah, since we were on an old VIP compound full of lakes, the pipes to which we blew the F up, we were in 115+ temps with 98%+ humidity as we were surrounded by evaporating lakes. With poisonous water.
That should be prison, because it was pure hell. We played a game where we would leave our big wrenches out in the sun for a few hours, then see who could hold them the longest. That is the kind of gak prisoners ought to be doing, just to deal with the ridiculous boredom, not working out and watching TV.
Oh yeah, sorry, for the uninitiated - in the context I used it RIP stands for Relieve In Place - IE take over our job.
and Nasty Girl stands for National Guard, in case you couldn't pick that up from context - at the start of the whole argument with Iraq/Afghanistan, most Reserve and National Guard units were full of incompetent bunglers, and our active duty units were shrunk down to where we needed them to prosecute a campaign (thanks Clinton) - it got better after a few years though as they got experience.
Funny as feth.
Haha! You made me feel better though, we were proper roughing it, behind enemy lines in a company level formation, living under ponchos and eating and drinking what we could carry, but it was pretty easy because you only had to look after yourself, and fill your water bottles/rations up when they got dropped off by chopper every 3 or 4 days. Communal water!? You can tell you guys had chicks with you.. feth that!
In the commando's there are no women, It's one reason I aimed for the top! I only ever worked with them when I was with Americans or occasionally on Navy ships, and chicks cant soldier. Dealing with rough conditions... don't listen to what the feminists say, they are about as much use Anne Frank's drumkit!
I'm just glad there weren't any with us begging for food/water or I might have let my balls rule my brain and ended up starving to death.
Bromsy wrote:
Guh, funny story about my first trip into Iraq - I was with a node center (commo) , so they kept us in Kuwait for the whole "war" part of things, since every time they brought a reserve/nasty girl unit in to RIP us they couldn't get their gak to work. Once it all died down my battalion commander wanted all 'his units' in iraq (for whatever the feth reason), so we went and spent about two months in Baghdad for no reason what so ever. We had no mission, no reason to be there. They collected everyones bottled water and MREs that they had brought up with them into a communal pool. I, being the unrecognized genius that I am said "F that." and kept all of mine for myself. After about eight days the girls had used all of our bottled water to shower with, and everyone was drinking the overly chemicalized buffalo (if you weren't in the military this won't make sense to you, let it go or google it) water that dumb asses kept leaving open so it was all full of probably malarial and west niley mosquitoes.
But yeah, since we were on an old VIP compound full of lakes, the pipes to which we blew the F up, we were in 115+ temps with 98%+ humidity as we were surrounded by evaporating lakes. With poisonous water.
That should be prison, because it was pure hell. We played a game where we would leave our big wrenches out in the sun for a few hours, then see who could hold them the longest. That is the kind of gak prisoners ought to be doing, just to deal with the ridiculous boredom, not working out and watching TV.
Oh yeah, sorry, for the uninitiated - in the context I used it RIP stands for Relieve In Place - IE take over our job.
and Nasty Girl stands for National Guard, in case you couldn't pick that up from context - at the start of the whole argument with Iraq/Afghanistan, most Reserve and National Guard units were full of incompetent bunglers, and our active duty units were shrunk down to where we needed them to prosecute a campaign (thanks Clinton) - it got better after a few years though as they got experience.
Funny as feth.
Haha! You made me feel better though, we were proper roughing it, behind enemy lines in a company level formation, living under ponchos and eating and drinking what we could carry, but it was pretty easy because you only had to look after yourself, and fill your water bottles/rations up when they got dropped off by chopper every 3 or 4 days. Communal water!? You can tell you guys had chicks with you.. feth that!
In the commando's there are no women, It's one reason I aimed for the top! I only ever worked with them when I was with Americans or occasionally on Navy ships, and chicks cant soldier. Dealing with rough conditions... don't listen to what the feminists say, they are about as much use Anne Frank's drumkit!
I'm just glad there weren't any with us begging for food/water or I might have let my balls rule my brain and ended up starving to death.
Yeah, it was super fun. We'd have a stack of 135 lbs cable reels that we'd have to move somewhere, and all the girls just kind of stood around looking sheepish. I would have done better as combat arms, but since I have Osgood Schlatters I had to get a waiver to join. Since y'know, knee pads didn't exist. Fethers.
Eventually though we all got use to roughing it...it became the daily life style...after getting use to the heat and body armor my main concern was cigs....coffee...food occasionally...and once and a great while a combat rub somewhere private. Oh Every 60-70 days access to a phone to make my vehicle payment...Only time I used a water buffulo was filling up a 55 gal drum trashcan and having mass platoon laundry day right by the water buffulo. Water buffulo was to be avoided as much as possible....Haji thinks its a fuel container
I think the best response from the judge and the one I would have given. In a stoic and of course the formall british accent, should have banged the gavel and simply said "Hang him."
Send him to Davao an leave him to the tender mercies of the roving Davao Death Squads....
Seriously, they dont feth around in Philippine prisons. Or in Davao for that matter! The mayor of Davao is known as 'The Punisher' and he shot his own son in the hand when he caught him doing drugs. His Own Son!? Imagine what he does to regular prisoners!
Shadowseer_Kim wrote:I think the best response from the judge and the one I would have given. In a stoic and of course the formall british accent, should have banged the gavel and simply said "Hang him."
While a fight to the death would be fun, it does kind of put the whole right to live in peril. Also it would be a matter of letting a mass murderer free.
Just keep them in tents and chuck in a few sacks of that High protein - Vitamin enriched corn meal (the stuff the red cross give to the starving africans.) every couple weeks.
Yeah to be honest i dont get how hot food and tv is a basic human right. Food, Shelter, running and hot water, a library, some protection from the other inmates, one visit every couple months and stationary is all i would give them if i ruled the world. Well tbh if i ruled the world there wouldnt be prisons.
It's easy to be an internet tough guy and hate everyone who is in prison, but there are still a surprisingly large amount of people who are wrongfully imprisoned, so making life hard on them isn't exactly justice.
Especially when wrongful imprisonment WILL utterly feth someone's life up permanently.
A friend of our neighbour got sent to prison for driving a vehicle for a mate that turned out to be carrying drugs. He came back completely changed, didn't trust people, drawn, scared. He was no longer the joking guy that he was before, said it was one of the worst things he had experienced and that he was an idiot for doing what he had and had learnt his lesson. It does sometimes work, not always but for those who do the silly things without thinking over the 'hardened/career' criminals prison still works to some extent.
