PROVIDENCE, R.I. (WPRI) - Edward Krawetz , the Lincoln officer convicted of assault , won't be going to prison.
He was sentenced in Providence Superior Court Monday to 10 years, with all 10 suspended. Krawetz was also ordered to attend mental health counseling.
"He's a hardworking guy so hopefully he'll be able to pick up the pieces and move forward with his life," said defense attorney John Harwood.
In January, a Providence Superior Court judge convicted Officer Krawetz of felony battery with a dangerous weapon.
Krawetz was accused of kicking a handcuffed woman outside Twin River casino in 2009 after the woman tried to kick him. The incident was caught on surveillance camera.
Krawetz was removing Donna Levesque from the facility for disorderly conduct. While testifying in his own defense, Krawetz said he kicked Levesque in self defense.
He waived his right to a jury trial in January, and instead opted for the judge to hear the evidence.
It's not the first time Krawetz has been convicted of assault. In 2001 he was convicted of misdemeanor assault after a confrontation with a man who was jogging with friends in Cumberland. He was suspended for 30 days following that case.
Copyright WPRI-12
That said, Krawetz did claim the woman he kicked had previously kicked him while seated.
She tried to kick him first. He's in a tactically superior position and she's a dumbass. He's just helping Darwin along. Not seeing what the problem is. It does apear he has some sort of stealth suit on though, because only the top and bottom of his leg are visible. Its Da Aliens!
Slightly OT, but if you assault a Policeman in America, or commit a crime which is witnessed by police, and you run off (with him chasing) and then end up on your property, can you shoot the policeman and claim self-defence?
Not if they have the half leg stealth suit you can't. You think you're safe then BAM! KPow! Meow! you're on the ground. Stealth ninja Po Po has struck again.
Frazzled wrote:She tried to kick him first. He's in a tactically superior position and she's a dumbass. He's just helping Darwin along. Not seeing what the problem is.
He's in a tactically superior position, striking a seated, handcuffed woman. His choice of response not only cost him his job and ensured that he'll never work in law enforcement again, it was almost certain to do so. He's even more of an idiot than she is, especially since she was intoxicated. Had the kick inflicted a serious head injury to the woman, which was likely given the relative positions, his problems would have been further magnified.
Moreover, if I defend myself against a woman from a tactically superior position, I would be in prison.
Frazzled wrote:She tried to kick him first. He's in a tactically superior position and she's a dumbass. He's just helping Darwin along. Not seeing what the problem is.
He's in a tactically superior position, striking a seated, handcuffed woman. His choice of response not only cost him his job and ensured that he'll never work in law enforcement again, it was almost certain to do so. He's even more of an idiot than she is, especially since she was intoxicated. Had the kick inflicted a serious head injury to the woman, which was likely given the relative positions, his problems would have been further magnified.
Moreover, if I defend myself against a woman from a tactically superior position, I would be in prison.
Pssh party pooper... and not one word abut this new stealth technology thats dropped all the way down to the local constabulary.
You know, if they can stealthize the human thigh, they can stealthize a wiener dog. Lots of wiener dogs.
My Children, the 12th Sign Has Been Reviled! Our Day Of Liberation from the Cat and Squirrel Menace is at hand! To War!!!!
Frazzled wrote:She tried to kick him first. He's in a tactically superior position and she's a dumbass. He's just helping Darwin along. Not seeing what the problem is.
Unfortunately fro that cop, we live in a society of laws, and cannot go around kicking whomever deserves it. If that was the case, then I could get nothing else done all day and would have a crippling head-kicking related RSI.
The peelers can get away with all sorts of gak, always have done.
That rank hypocrisy is the single biggest reason why such a large amount of people dislike Policemen.
My circle of friends is pretty middle class these days, except for me obviously.
One is a top engineer for the national grid, one is a criminal attorney, another is a mental health worker, none of them have ever been arrested to my knowledge, but they all dislike the police, even the most liberal amongst them.
I don't know what its like in other parts of the country, but from many pub conversations I think that the overwhelming majority of people either actively dislike the police, or at least lean towards dislike, and I am the exact same, I just support the police because I hate criminals more.
The fact of the matter is, in both the UK and the US, coppers get away with the gak that citizens would get fethed for, they are only human of course, and they have the same temptations as any of us, nobody has an issue with a bobby acting like anybody else..but they don't seem to have to deal with the same punishments as the rest of us though!
I have read literally hundreds of cases the past decade, a bobby doing 159mph and not getting punished, killing peoples dogs, running people over, beating the gak out of people, corruption, bribery.. the list is fething endless.
Needless to say, here is a similar case.
A policeman who was caught speeding in his car at 159mph was found guilty of dangerous driving today - but got off without punishment.
PC Mark Milton, of Telford, Shropshire, today appeared at Ludlow magistrates court for a retrial after his previous acquittal was overturned.
District judge Peter Wallis said that the West Mercia police traffic constable had been driving at 'eyewatering speeds' but gave him an absolute discharge.
That means that PC Milton will not face any punishment, although his lawyers have confirmed that they will appeal the conviction.
Frazzled wrote:She tried to kick him first. He's in a tactically superior position and she's a dumbass. He's just helping Darwin along. Not seeing what the problem is.
Unfortunately fro that cop, we live in a society of laws, and cannot go around kicking whomever deserves it if we get caught on camera.. If that was the case, then I could get nothing else done all day and would have a crippling head-kicking related RSI.
Corrected your typo.
Everyone's glossing over this stealth wienerdog thing. Its like the news reports of the zombies. A few reports - meh wierd news, then all of the sudden you're fighting off zombies with a bottle of TUMs and a roll of toilet paper, all the while your ankles are being gnawed on by a pair of wiener dogs. You don't want to be fighting off the zombies with a bottle of TUMs do you?
In other news, we are hopeful that the pseudo seizure thing the Mighty TBone had Wendesday is nonrecurring and related to his alleregy like fit. He's not done it again, and except for very quickly climbing into my lap during a short bought of thunder whilst I was watching Predators has been completely normal since (read complete and utter donkey-cave of the universe).
I'm more interested in whether him being a policeman affected the sentence. I know that if I were a judge convicting him, that fact would make his sentence longer as the point of policemen is that they're trustworthy, don't make rash decisions and, well, don't do stuff like that.
p_gray99 wrote:I'm more interested in whether him being a policeman affected the sentence. I know that if I were a judge convicting him, that fact would make his sentence longer as the point of policemen is that they're trustworthy, don't make rash decisions and, well, don't do stuff like that.
It hugely does, it makes them much more lenient.
Ten years suspended?!
If you have a bound woman, seated and bound, who is no threat to you in any possible way, and you needlessly kick her right in the fething mouth, you get sent down 99 times out of a 100.
Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:Slightly OT, but if you assault a Policeman in America, or commit a crime which is witnessed by police, and you run off (with him chasing) and then end up on your property, can you shoot the policeman and claim self-defence?
p_gray99 wrote:I'm more interested in whether him being a policeman affected the sentence. I know that if I were a judge convicting him, that fact would make his sentence longer as the point of policemen is that they're trustworthy, don't make rash decisions and, well, don't do stuff like that.
It hugely does, it makes them much more lenient.
Ten years suspended?!
If you have a bound woman, seated and bound, who is no threat to you in any possible way, and you needlessly kick her right in the fething mouth, you get sent down 99 times out of a 100.
Also you generally can't use that defense while "in commission of a crime" as noted in the scenario given.
Now back to the omen of a horrible new alliance between the wiener dog legions and zombie postal workers.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
CT GAMER wrote:
mattyrm wrote:
p_gray99 wrote:I'm more interested in whether him being a policeman affected the sentence. I know that if I were a judge convicting him, that fact would make his sentence longer as the point of policemen is that they're trustworthy, don't make rash decisions and, well, don't do stuff like that.
It hugely does, it makes them much more lenient.
Ten years suspended?!
If you have a bound woman, seated and bound, who is no threat to you in any possible way, and you needlessly kick her right in the fething mouth, you get sent down 99 times out of a 100.
What if she is wearing a hoodie?
It depends. Did she have a bag of Skittles on her?
It's just sad. Whilst I generally approve of harsh and decisive action against actual threats against society, it gets more difficult to defend law enforcement by the day. From the outside, incidents like these just make the whole service look like sadistic donkey-caves who are just waiting for someone to park their car the wrong way so they can go vent their frustration over low pay or whatever. As long as that car looks like a cheap, used model of course.
I'm tempted to say that those are "just a couple bad eggs in the casket" and you'll always have "exceptions from the rule", but looking at security videos where you see whole teams of cops just standing by and looking as one of them goes berzerk, or hear about cases where an entire department has obscured investigations and tried to make evidence disappear, it starts to look more like a pattern. The fact that law enforcement, like the military, creates a strong bond between people, and that it works closely with the judicative branches doesn't make it any better.
The worst is that you start thinking about what doesn't get caught on camera, because really, how big is the chance that the 5 m² an arrest happens on is caught on tape?
Seems to be an issue of especially large cities with a high crime rate and bad working conditions for the officers, mostly, as well as a lack of internal policing. I've noticed this in parts of Germany, too. Fortunately, Ireland is an entirely different story, but around here the cops don't even carry guns, so I guess the situation just hasn't "escalated" to the same level of violence vs violence as elsewhere.
You know, most of the time I'm against intrusive survailance from Governments, but if it'd stop this and allow the world to know what's actually happening, then I'd vote for it.
My old man told me he got arrested for drunk and disorderly on a stag do in Newcastle once, and during the scuffle to arrest him he threw an elbow into a coppers face.
He said 2-3 hours later he was sleeping off the hangover in his cell, and the copper he hit came in with a mate and they knocked the fething gak out of him with their truncheons, I saw him when he came home, I think I was about 10 or 11 at the time, and he had a corking shiner, a few lumps on his head and a bust lip.
At the time he told me he fell down the stairs and grinned, but in subsequent conversations since I grew up he told me the truth, and said that basically they said to him the next day "We will drop the assaulting an officer charge we could throw at you, if you take no action over your injuries" and of course he did and left with a caution for being drunk. He said this was pretty much the SOP for a drunk ever clipping a copper during the 80s and 90s.
Now, Im a rough and tumble kinda bloke, I wouldn't give a gak if they beat his ass at the time.. even in the back of the van or something, I dont think bobbies should act like saints considering the scum they have to deal with.. but hours later?!
They should be above that gak. I never mistreated any prisoners in Iraq and Afghanistan even if I really wanted to, because we are professionals and that kinda gak makes you look like a Mickey Mouse outfit. And it is for that reason I dislike policemen.. Not because they are fallible and human, but because many of them are extremely unprofessional and seem to not enforce the high standards internally that they push upon the rest us.
I think it's probably just down to them having the wrong attitude in that case. They may be humans like the rest of us, but they should at least try a little harder to be saint-like than the rest of us. Self-defence or reacting to being hit, fine, but an overreaction or reacting hours later?
One is a top engineer for the national grid, one is a criminal attorney, another is a mental health worker, none of them have ever been arrested to my knowledge, but they all dislike the police, even the most liberal amongst them.
Personally, I think it's because most people's impression of them is as the tax-collectors of the highways. Only time you see them is when you get pulled over for doing 35mph in a 30 zone, and meanwhile things which you would though should be the purpose of them, i.e. the protection of the public from real criminal elements, seems to get short shrift. I read the other day that they have started fining people for giving 'warning flashes' to other cars, a common practice in the UK if you've just gone past a cop with a speed gun and you see someone coming in the other direction and about to enter it themselves.
But, then its the politicians that are to blame for it, when you have someone like David Blunkett saying years ago that in the eyes of the law parking on a double yellow line is the same as theft... this quest for austerity is starting to slip into every part of society - I had to lie to my doctor about a year back about being resident in the UK. The fact that I had been overseas for more than 6 months meant that, despite paying taxes for the other 12 years or so of my working life, I wouldn't have been able to have a suspect lump removed on the NHS.
Pacific wrote:
Personally, I think it's because most people's impression of them is as the tax-collectors of the highways. Only time you see them is when you get pulled over for doing 35mph in a 30 zone, and meanwhile things which you would though should be the purpose of them, i.e. the protection of the public from real criminal elements, seems to get short shrift.
At least in the US there have been significant increases over the last decade regarding the use of SWAT for trivial affairs, which certainly doesn't help. The prevalence of surveillance cameras, camera phones, and the 24-hour news cycle also mean that a lot more stories with significant evidence are present in the public consciousness. There's also, at least in my dad's generation, the memories of the way police were during the 60's and 70's, and a lot of sensitivity regarding the abuse of power as a result.
Also, some cops are just dicks, and you tend to remember the guys that were dicks rather than the ones that were simply professional. Of course, I've met some really awesome cops as well, but they tend to be the guys working in schools and ERs; basically lower stress positions.
Does anyone have the whole video? I'd like to see that, but it does look bad for the cop. The only reason I'd want to see the video is to see what was right before this frame, maybe 10 seconds of video. If she was sitting on the curb hurling insults, that's one thing, but if she was getting up then I'd want to see even more.
There is a possibility that she had kicked at and hit the cop multiple times in the 30 seconds to a minute before, even with handcuffs on. If that's the case, then he has the right to kick her to get her to stop. Might be a little excessive to kick her in the head, but she has more than 50% responsibility if she is not settling down.
The reason I say this is I've fallen for the single frame of the video new report before. We had a cop in the local area who shot a young lady that had a knife. The news reported it as a travesty and showed the picture from the video of the lady being shot from 2 ft away, no knife in the picture. The public was outraged but then the whole video was shown. You see the young lady about 20 feet away from the cop, yelling at him, spitting at him, then she seems to calm down, drops her head for a few second. Next thing you know, she is charging toward him, knife clearly in view. The cop managed to draw his gun and shoot her before she stabbed him, but she was in stabbing range when he shot. The frame that was printed was one of the only ones that did not show the knife (knife in her right hand, body was blocking the view of the knife at that second) but almost all the other frames from the start of the charge till she was laying on the ground showed the knife clearly. I feel bad for the family, since she was clearly on drugs and impaired, but if you pull a knife and charge a cop, you are going to get shot. An opinion article pointed out that a person armed with a knife that is within 27 feet will be able stab a police officer, more often than not, before the police officer can draw and fire.
So, let's get the whole video here before we decide and if she was still trying to assault the cop when she was handcuffed, then let's err on the side of the cop. When the cops have you restrained, be restrained or your going to get hurt.
Tye_Informer wrote:If that's the case, then he has the right to kick her to get her to stop.
What? That's not how you subdue a delinquent. Police work shouldn't look like a game of Street Fighter. Especially when that somebody is already handcuffed, a pair of hands should be perfectly enough to restrain her further, no?
Assuming she was actually fighting back, for at this point I know nothing more but this photo and the claim as well.
Tye_Informer wrote:The public was outraged but then the whole video was shown.
Tbh, then "the public" was full of idiots. If the news said she was shot for having a knife and you don't see both hands empty, then the logical course of action would be to assume the knife must be in one of the hands not visible.
Tye_Informer wrote:or your going to get hurt.
Or killed.
[edit] Ah, so trying to trip someone now counts as "kicking"...
Drunk woman makes a half hearted attempt to kick a police officer, from a handcuffed seated position, so said police officer drops a round house to her head?
I guess I'm the only one who thinks that was pretty reasonable. She kicks him as hard as she can across the shins whilst he's distracted filling out paperwork and his instant reaction is to just flick his foot out towards her to get her to stop. He catches her pretty sweetly, but I personally think that's a fluke, and that he was actually aiming for her shoulder.
I mean, yeah, it looks bad, but it was just a split-second reaction in the heat of the moment, acting in self-defence. It's not like he lined her up and gave her a running volley to the head. It was flick that just caught her square in the temple by chance. A fluke.
Pretty sure that was the calves, seeing that she did not even "kick" him but swung her leg in an arc from the side. If she had hit his shins the guy might have actually look like it had bothered him.
If his "instant reaction" is to kick people in the head that's a sure sign of an overly violent personality to me, making him a threat to society rather than an asset. The guy is probably stressed out by a gakky job and venting his frustration at helpless citizens unable to fight back at his assumed authority. Probably the most common source for police brutality - people joining the force with ideals and over the years getting burned out and corrupted by a cycle of violence, hatred, perceived betrayal by public and officials (connected to low wages and benefits), false cameraderie from fellow officers and simple human enjoyment of dominance.
Albatross wrote:I guess I'm the only one who thinks that was pretty reasonable. She kicks him as hard as she can across the shins whilst he's distracted filling out paperwork and his instant reaction is to just flick his foot out towards her to get her to stop. He catches her pretty sweetly, but I personally think that's a fluke, and that he was actually aiming for her shoulder.
I mean, yeah, it looks bad, but it was just a split-second reaction in the heat of the moment, acting in self-defence. It's not like he lined her up and gave her a running volley to the head. It was flick that just caught her square in the temple by chance. A fluke.
If your gut reaction is to kick a seated, handcuffed person, you are not properly trained to act as police officer. Anyone authorized to use violence legally needs to have more self control.
Albatross wrote:I guess I'm the only one who thinks that was pretty reasonable. She kicks him as hard as she can across the shins whilst he's distracted filling out paperwork and his instant reaction is to just flick his foot out towards her to get her to stop. He catches her pretty sweetly, but I personally think that's a fluke, and that he was actually aiming for her shoulder.
I mean, yeah, it looks bad, but it was just a split-second reaction in the heat of the moment, acting in self-defence. It's not like he lined her up and gave her a running volley to the head. It was flick that just caught her square in the temple by chance. A fluke.
Well, I think the larger point is that when you're on a call to arrest someone for being drunk and disorderly, and you have her restrained, your first recourse should not be to strike her unless the circumstances are extreme. It would be different if you were pulling someone out of an area known for gang violence, or if you knew she was on something more difficult than simple booze, and even then stupid as the environment would require caution so as not to attract attention.
I mean, the woman doesn't even appear to be wearing shoes, and if that's the hardest kick she could muster she isn't much of a threat. He clearly didn't think she was either, given where he was standing.
Lynata wrote:
If his "instant reaction" is to kick people in the head that's a sure sign of an overly violent personality to me, making him a threat to society rather than an asset.
I don't know about "overly violent", but certainly "poorly trained" or "unprofessional".
Albatross wrote:I guess I'm the only one who thinks that was pretty reasonable. She kicks him as hard as she can across the shins whilst he's distracted filling out paperwork and his instant reaction is to just flick his foot out towards her to get her to stop. He catches her pretty sweetly, but I personally think that's a fluke, and that he was actually aiming for her shoulder.
I mean, yeah, it looks bad, but it was just a split-second reaction in the heat of the moment, acting in self-defence. It's not like he lined her up and gave her a running volley to the head. It was flick that just caught her square in the temple by chance. A fluke.
I could have a girl going flying rodent gak insane and trying to claw my eyes out. But if I punched her in the face, I'd still look like a monster to the people around me.
Police are no different. I hope that cop dies in a house fire.
dogma wrote:I don't know about "overly violent", but certainly "poorly trained" or "unprofessional".
I'm not sure about the training, but I think lots of these incidents could be avoided with frequent counseling. They are introducing this for soldiers now, and it seems to pay off.
Testify wrote:I could have a girl going flying rodent gak insane and trying to claw my eyes out. But if I punched her in the face, I'd still look like a monster to the people around me.
Testify wrote:I could have a girl going flying rodent gak insane and trying to claw my eyes out. But if I punched her in the face, I'd still look like a monster to the people around me.
Not in my opinion, punch her!
16 stone man punches a woman in the face.
Bad things happen, believe me.
Restraining people really isn't very hard. It's easier to restrain someone than use violence to incapacitate someone.
Albatross wrote:I guess I'm the only one who thinks that was pretty reasonable. She kicks him as hard as she can across the shins whilst he's distracted filling out paperwork and his instant reaction is to just flick his foot out towards her to get her to stop. He catches her pretty sweetly, but I personally think that's a fluke, and that he was actually aiming for her shoulder.
I mean, yeah, it looks bad, but it was just a split-second reaction in the heat of the moment, acting in self-defence. It's not like he lined her up and gave her a running volley to the head. It was flick that just caught her square in the temple by chance. A fluke.
If your gut reaction is to kick a seated, handcuffed person, you are not properly trained to act as police officer. Anyone authorized to use violence legally needs to have more self control.
...so you're saying I... shouldn't become a cop?
Don't get me wrong, the guy isn't my hero or anything, I just think it looks worse than it probably is. I wouldn't have done what he did. When she kicked me I would have jumped out of her range, then told her to sit still or get tasered.
Albatross wrote:I guess I'm the only one who thinks that was pretty reasonable. She kicks him as hard as she can across the shins whilst he's distracted filling out paperwork and his instant reaction is to just flick his foot out towards her to get her to stop. He catches her pretty sweetly, but I personally think that's a fluke, and that he was actually aiming for her shoulder.
I mean, yeah, it looks bad, but it was just a split-second reaction in the heat of the moment, acting in self-defence. It's not like he lined her up and gave her a running volley to the head. It was flick that just caught her square in the temple by chance. A fluke.
If your gut reaction is to kick a seated, handcuffed person, you are not properly trained to act as police officer. Anyone authorized to use violence legally needs to have more self control.
...so you're saying I... shouldn't become a cop?
Don't get me wrong, the guy isn't my hero or anything, I just think it looks worse than it probably is. I wouldn't have done what he did. When she kicked me I would have jumped out of her range, then told her to sit still or get tasered.
And you wonder why there were anti-police riots in England Seriously if a cop did something like this on an English city center, there'd be blood on the streets.
Lynata wrote:I'm not sure about the training, but I think lots of these incidents could be avoided with frequent counseling. They are introducing this for soldiers now, and it seems to pay off.
If I remember right some police departments also do this, but with funding often being issue I can't imagine its many.
Albatross wrote:I guess I'm the only one who thinks that was pretty reasonable. She kicks him as hard as she can across the shins whilst he's distracted filling out paperwork and his instant reaction is to just flick his foot out towards her to get her to stop. He catches her pretty sweetly, but I personally think that's a fluke, and that he was actually aiming for her shoulder.
I mean, yeah, it looks bad, but it was just a split-second reaction in the heat of the moment, acting in self-defence. It's not like he lined her up and gave her a running volley to the head. It was flick that just caught her square in the temple by chance. A fluke.
If your gut reaction is to kick a seated, handcuffed person, you are not properly trained to act as police officer. Anyone authorized to use violence legally needs to have more self control.
...so you're saying I... shouldn't become a cop?
Don't get me wrong, the guy isn't my hero or anything, I just think it looks worse than it probably is. I wouldn't have done what he did. When she kicked me I would have jumped out of her range, then told her to sit still or get tasered.
And you wonder why there were anti-police riots in England Seriously if a cop did something like this on an English city center, there'd be blood on the streets.
Yes, presumably from the person who got kicked in the head.
Testify wrote:Seriously if a cop did something like this on an English city center, there'd be blood on the streets.
Didn't a cop shove a random and completely innocent citizen so hard to the ground that he died due to his head slamming against the concrete? I vaguely remember reading about it. Happened during the riots, tho, so it's understandable they were on the edge and I wouldn't have expected someone basically dying from a shove either. The saddest thing about that incident is the guy didn't even deserve to be shoved as his only "crime" was being in the wrong place at the wrong time and was pushed as he tried to leave the area and go home. :(
dogma wrote:If I remember right some police departments also do this, but with funding often being issue I can't imagine its many.
Aye, the budget seems to be an issue in so many countries. It's unbelievable when you consider the other areas of spending where it's basically thrown out of the window.
In Germany, I know of cases where cops had to buy their own handcuffs because the department would only issue them with straps of plastic. And that's not even touching the lack of personnell, basically leading to the police ignoring incidents as they lack the time to investigate. They're not allowed to mention this to the public, but a news magazine accompanied a pair of fed-up anonymous officers during a nightly patrol.
Frazzled wrote:She tried to kick him first. He's in a tactically superior position and she's a dumbass. He's just helping Darwin along. Not seeing what the problem is.
He's in a tactically superior position, striking a seated, handcuffed woman. His choice of response not only cost him his job and ensured that he'll never work in law enforcement again, it was almost certain to do so. He's even more of an idiot than she is, especially since she was intoxicated. Had the kick inflicted a serious head injury to the woman, which was likely given the relative positions, his problems would have been further magnified.
Moreover, if I defend myself against a woman from a tactically superior position, I would be in prison.
Pssh party pooper... and not one word abut this new stealth technology thats dropped all the way down to the local constabulary.
You know, if they can stealthize the human thigh, they can stealthize a wiener dog. Lots of wiener dogs.
My Children, the 12th Sign Has Been Reviled! Our Day Of Liberation from the Cat and Squirrel Menace is at hand! To War!!!!
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Jihadin wrote:Power trip.
Looks more like a Power kick to me...
Reviled? What, are the Pan Fo involved? Makes sense.
Stupid cop. Everyone knows you make the crazy drunk chase you and fall over a lot while you and your buddies laugh at her.
I'm not sure about the training, but I think lots of these incidents could be avoided with frequent counseling. They are introducing this for soldiers now, and it seems to pay off.
Albatross wrote:I guess I'm the only one who thinks that was pretty reasonable. She kicks him as hard as she can across the shins whilst he's distracted filling out paperwork and his instant reaction is to just flick his foot out towards her to get her to stop. He catches her pretty sweetly, but I personally think that's a fluke, and that he was actually aiming for her shoulder.
I mean, yeah, it looks bad, but it was just a split-second reaction in the heat of the moment, acting in self-defence. It's not like he lined her up and gave her a running volley to the head. It was flick that just caught her square in the temple by chance. A fluke.
If your gut reaction is to kick a seated, handcuffed person, you are not properly trained to act as police officer. Anyone authorized to use violence legally needs to have more self control.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
dogma wrote:
Albatross wrote:I guess I'm the only one who thinks that was pretty reasonable. She kicks him as hard as she can across the shins whilst he's distracted filling out paperwork and his instant reaction is to just flick his foot out towards her to get her to stop. He catches her pretty sweetly, but I personally think that's a fluke, and that he was actually aiming for her shoulder.
I mean, yeah, it looks bad, but it was just a split-second reaction in the heat of the moment, acting in self-defence. It's not like he lined her up and gave her a running volley to the head. It was flick that just caught her square in the temple by chance. A fluke.
Well, I think the larger point is that when you're on a call to arrest someone for being drunk and disorderly, and you have her restrained, your first recourse should not be to strike her unless the circumstances are extreme. It would be different if you were pulling someone out of an area known for gang violence, or if you knew she was on something more difficult than simple booze, and even then stupid as the environment would require caution so as not to attract attention.
I mean, the woman doesn't even appear to be wearing shoes, and if that's the hardest kick she could muster she isn't much of a threat. He clearly didn't think she was either, given where he was standing.
Lynata wrote:
If his "instant reaction" is to kick people in the head that's a sure sign of an overly violent personality to me, making him a threat to society rather than an asset.
I don't know about "overly violent", but certainly "poorly trained" or "unprofessional".
Jihadin wrote:Really? What classes? Two different worlds here.
Is it really, though? I don't think the stress that soldiers experience in a warzone (especially an occupied country where the distinction between friendly and hostile is blurred) is that fundamentally different from a cop doing shift after shift in a particularly violent area of his city where he has to cope with gangers and some very sick crimes, possibly stuff that can really scar people. The human psyche will always try to adapt to a new situation, but at times this adaption lets the individual end up sick and twisted if he doesn't receive help in time.
At least for now I refuse to believe that the majority of cops join the force because they've always been donkey-caves. Call it naive, but I think most of them were good once, people with high ideals of law and justice, and were only corrupted by exposure to a specific type of environment (the external climate of street violence and shattered ideals, and the internal climate of cameraderie that stretches beyond protocol).
tl;dr: people working in a particularly stressful environment need assistance staying true to themselves. Superiors dismissing incidents or concern without thought and comrades covering for each other even in the face of the most inhumane behavior is just wrong, and as we have seen this happens in both the military as well as the police. I see lots of parallels between the two, though that's just my current impression.
LOL occupied countries now thats funny. Again its two different worlds. EPW would be zipped cuff hand and feet with a sandbag over their head. Now if we're talking violence its two different world still. We don't wait for a negotiater we go and kill them if possible and if they surrender then they're accorded rights as a EPW.....after we take care of our own.
dogma wrote:I don't know about "overly violent", but certainly "poorly trained" or "unprofessional".
I'm not sure about the training, but I think lots of these incidents could be avoided with frequent counseling. They are introducing this for soldiers now, and it seems to pay off.
Soldiers are meant to be violent, and so are police, so those professions attract people with a propensity for violence.
Of course the violence is supposed to be exercised within legal limitation, however conflicting messages from the public, and a macho culture, reduce the force of the rules and training.
Plus, police and soldiers often operate in high tension conditions, and have to make snap judgements.
For soldiers we're under supervision at all times. We would never leave a lone soldier with a EPW. We do have frequent classes on Land of War laws and also we have our ROE. We also are also trained to look for the ones that are looking a bit frazz out due to combat stress and yes there are "clinics" we can go to. For the record Iim not a violent person
Jihadin wrote:We also are also trained to look for the ones that are looking a bit frazz out due to combat stress and yes there are "clinics" we can go to.
Its like someone called my name. We interrupt this program for a special announcement. Team Wienie has finally perfected wiener dog fire support for Dachshundskrieg.
I read or listen to this gak everyday of my life if the criminal causes trouble officers should be able to beat the living gak out of them. My family are in the police and the amount of problems we get are huge, Police officers risk their lives to keep us safe and all the press or government do is gak all over them.
black templar wrote:I read or listen to this gak everyday of my life if the criminal causes trouble officers should be able to beat the living gak out of them.
"Causes trouble" is a pretty broad brush.
Your family no doubt thinks that they should be able to beat the gak out of everyone as well, which is no doubt why so many law abiding citizens fething hate the police.
black templar wrote:I read or listen to this gak everyday of my life if the criminal causes trouble officers should be able to beat the living gak out of them. My family are in the police and the amount of problems we get are huge, Police officers risk their lives to keep us safe and all the press or government do is gak all over them.
If a criminal "causes trouble?" Thats a little, er extreme isn't it?
Ok so we have one vote for the Stazi. Anyone else?
black templar wrote:I read or listen to this gak everyday of my life if the criminal causes trouble officers should be able to beat the living gak out of them.
"Causes trouble" is a pretty broad brush.
Your family no doubt thinks that they should be able to beat the gak out of everyone as well, which is no doubt why so many law abiding citizens fething hate the police.
We don't believe in beating the gak out of everybody but have you seen half of the scum the police have to deal with? I don't see why there is a hatred for police officers if there was no police force everywhere would be a flaming ruin.
black templar wrote:I read or listen to this gak everyday of my life if the criminal causes trouble officers should be able to beat the living gak out of them.
"Causes trouble" is a pretty broad brush.
Your family no doubt thinks that they should be able to beat the gak out of everyone as well, which is no doubt why so many law abiding citizens fething hate the police.
We don't believe in beating the gak out of everybody but have you seen half of the scum the police have to deal with?
black templar wrote:We don't believe in beating the gak out of everybody but have you seen half of the scum the police have to deal with? I don't see why there is a hatred for police officers if there was no police force everywhere would be a flaming ruin.
See, I think the problem is that a police force "beathing the gak out of everybody" is actively contributing to this problem. Cycle of violence, etc. It's not the only reason, to be sure, but when citizens start seeing officers do stuff like what we have seen on this video here, this perception is going to affect how said officers are seen and in turn treated. Undoubtedly this is a concern for those officers who have actually managed to stay true to their ideals - just as "getting beaten their gak out" is a problem for every victim of unnecessary police brutality.
"To protect and to serve" stops having any sort of meaning when you have entire departments with a history of abuse and obstruction of justice. The images and the video of the innocent homeless man tortured to death by half a dozen cops are still on everyone's mind. This here only adds on top of it. Don't tell me you do not see there's a problem.
black templar wrote:We don't believe in beating the gak out of everybody but have you seen half of the scum the police have to deal with? I don't see why there is a hatred for police officers if there was no police force everywhere would be a flaming ruin.
See, I think the problem is that a police force "beathing the gak out of everybody" is actively contributing to this problem. Cycle of violence, etc. It's not the only reason, to be sure, but when citizens start seeing officers do stuff like what we have seen on this video here, this perception is going to affect how said officers are seen and in turn treated. Undoubtedly this is a concern for those officers who have actually managed to stay true to their ideals - just as "getting beaten their gak out" is a problem for every victim of unnecessary police brutality.
"To protect and to serve" stops having any sort of meaning when you have entire departments with a history of abuse and obstruction of justice. The images and the video of the innocent homeless man tortured to death by half a dozen cops are still on everyone's mind. This here only adds on top of it. Don't tell me you do not see there's a problem.
Also, doesn't it up the ante? If I'm Joe Blow and I know if the police are around their chances of beating on me are gret then I'm going to actively dislike the police and resist arrest up to lethal force to prevent that.
Frazzled wrote:Also, doesn't it up the ante? If I'm Joe Blow and I know if the police are around their chances of beating on me are gret then I'm going to actively dislike the police and resist arrest up to lethal force to prevent that.
Most of that sort of resistance probably happens as some sort of reflex rather than a pre-planned action, I think. "Flight or fight" instinct or something like that. What is more disturbing is that in the most (in)famous cases it wasn't even active resistance but rather just not being fast enough or acting confused.
But yeah, of course there is also a blowback effect attached that works against the cops. If a truly violent individual knows he cannot expect to be taken in gently, he too has no reason to hold back and will try to exert maximum force right away in the hopes of securing his escape.
Kil...can't really do a good job on beating yourself up...self preservation and common sense a major factor....now if you really need someone to help you.....
Ah yes Lynata...the spring loaded billy stick...swing once and get hit 99 times....I actually didn't feel sorry for the turk though...he should have stopped when the polizi said "stop"
That was South Vietnamese Army Officer...I believe a General....that was military not police.
edit for spelling
2nd edit
If I remember correctly the individual was a possible spy
3rd edit
he was a Vietcong fighter captured in Cholon, the Chinese section of Saigon
executed by Colonel Nguyá» n Ngá»c Loan - Tet ofensive February 2, 1968
Automatically Appended Next Post: Colonel Nguyen Ngoc Loan, the shooter, was Director General of the National Police. He went into combat with the butt of his M-16 taped to his right forearm so he could fire one handed on full auto.
The man being shot, Nguyen Van Lem, was the captain of a Vietcong platoon that had just murdered the wives, children, and relatives of several Saigon police officers. Thirty-four bound bodies were later found in a ditch.
Jihadin wrote:That was South Vietnamese Army Officer...I believe a General....that was military not police.
edit for spelling
2nd edit
If I remember correctly the individual was a possible spy
3rd edit
he was a Vietcong fighter captured in Cholon, the Chinese section of Saigon
executed by Colonel Nguyá» n Ngá»c Loan - Tet ofensive February 2, 1968
Automatically Appended Next Post: Colonel Nguyen Ngoc Loan, the shooter, was Director General of the National Police. He went into combat with the butt of his M-16 taped to his right forearm so he could fire one handed on full auto.
The man being shot, Nguyen Van Lem, was the captain of a Vietcong platoon that had just murdered the wives, children, and relatives of several Saigon police officers. Thirty-four bound bodies were later found in a ditch.
Complete now so he was in charge of the police.
Yeah that pic is a really good example of the effect of imagery outside of context, the man who was executed was just caught killing a family of south Vietnamese. But we immediately assume that the shooter is the villian
Looking at the video now, I have very little sympathy for the woman. She should know that she's in a lot of trouble and needs to settle down, she didn't. If she had not kicked at the cop he would have written his report and moved on. She kicked at him, he kicked at her, unfortunately for her, he hit her a lot harder than she did. Bummer, but that's the way it is.
I'm sure a ton of people on here disagree with me, but that's not going to change my opinion. Even if you are drunk, you are responsible for your actions. If you attempt to assault a police officer, they should respond in kind. (Deadly weapon gets deadly weapon response, punch or kick gets likewise back) If you are stupid enough to bring a knife to a gun fight, then that's your own fault! In this case, if you are stupid enough to decide to kick from a sitting position, that's your fault. I'm glad the cop was in a superior position. Hopefully this woman will learn from the experience.
The lady that I referred to earlier, who charged a cop with a knife, didn't get a chance to learn from her mistake. That's unfortunate for all concerned. I feel worse about that then this situation because this lady can learn.
Did she ask to get kicked after trying to kick him? Yeah.
Was the officer in a better position to deal with her other than just kicking her in the head? Yeah.
But have to wonder, with so many cops being put in the public eye for police brutality, wouldn't they think twice before they do something potentially stupid? Or is it a adrenaline thing?
The heat...it was the heat that crept up on him...hot...sweaty...pissed off because he left the aircondition cruiser...hand cramp from writting....dehydrated...hungover from last night drunkfest...GF/wife left him..took the dog with them to...it was not his day nor hers
Jihadin wrote:The heat...it was the heat that crept up on him...hot...sweaty...pissed off because he left the aircondition cruiser...hand cramp from writting....dehydrated...hungover from last night drunkfest...GF/wife left him..took the dog with them to...it was not his day nor hers
Tye_Informer wrote:Even if you are drunk, you are responsible for your actions. If you attempt to assault a police officer, they should respond in kind. (Deadly weapon gets deadly weapon response, punch or kick gets likewise back)
Even if you wear a badge, you are responsible for your actions. Also, since when exactly is a half-hearted sideways swing against someone's calf "likewise" to kicking somebody in the head?
Tye_Informer wrote:The lady that I referred to earlier, who charged a cop with a knife, didn't get a chance to learn from her mistake. That's unfortunate for all concerned. I feel worse about that then this situation because this lady can learn.
Learn to not trust the local law enforcement.
Great job, officer. Well done. I'm sure the department is really proud of this hero, his decisive action sure made his colleagues' jobs a lot easier. Somebody award that man a medal for showing that dirty citizen what's what!
I've come to a point where I seriously don't know what's worse - this kind of thing happening, or people trying to defend it.
Piston Honda wrote:But have to wonder, with so many cops being put in the public eye for police brutality, wouldn't they think twice before they do something potentially stupid? Or is it a adrenaline thing?
If it'd be adrenaline, that guy has a health problem, for it sure is rising and dropping incredibly fast.
I still think it's some stress-related psychosis; who knows what this officer has been through in his career so far. If what I heard about employment in law enforcement often also having negative effects on a relationship, he might even have trouble with his family. In moments like these, I suppose all the gak he feels he had to take from his boss, from the bank, from the gangs and from his wife (if he has one) could be focused on whoever is on the receiving end of his fist/foot/baton/taser. Power does corrupt, if not handled with care, and humans simply subconsciously or consciously enjoy having others at their mercy and exerting their dominance. It's in our nature, and it's the premier reason for why we had (and have, when looking at Afghanistan) so many inhumane things happen in various wars. The only way to counter this is rigid internal policing, counseling, and proper treatment of personnel (regular holidays, okay'ish pay, rotating officers in and out of crisis zones, etc).
black templar wrote:We don't believe in beating the gak out of everybody but have you seen half of the scum the police have to deal with? I don't see why there is a hatred for police officers if there was no police force everywhere would be a flaming ruin.
Have you seen half of the police scum WE have to deal with? If you don't see why there's hatred for cops, maybe you'd be better looking harder.
I've had to deal with violent, drunk militaries in bars ; violent, drugged criminals on the streets, and violent sober cops in daylight in a park. I felt much safer with the jarheads and the thugs, to be honest.
Doesn't help that Montreal is basically Gotham City without the Batman, tho...
HHHmmm I've already had to pick up some of my soldiers from jail. Drunk and disordely but we in the military call it Alcohol related incident. Local police are shall we say quite understanding towards us and they also know we hammer them a lot harder then a judge. Thats the minor offense. Few guys in another Battalion got tazered and pepper sprayed for being batshia crazy and appropiately dealt with. Besides a lot of us know the law enforcements officers anyway since a lot of us go to the range to cap some targets. Also we're allowed high capacity magazines so they get a kick when they can fire off a insane amount of rounds
Thing is, I'm the most non-threatening person in the world. When people try to pick up fight we me, I usually just laugh and say 'Yeah, you win, no contest'. That has allowed me to intervene a few times and break up ongoing fights, one of them being between a few soldiers at a friends birthday. They spent the entire night trying to pick up fights, and I spent the entire night putting myself between them, and they never even lifted their hand.
Cops are another story entirely. Once, they threatened me (us)with tasers while they allowed the bouncers of some bar to beat one of my friend near unconsciousness. I still get pumped just thinking about the story. It's the kind of thing I would've doubted happened outside of ghettos, and frak, I endend up being part of the story. Of course, when my friend (the guy who got beaten) got around to make a complaint, all information about who had answered that call was lost... When the cops got around to bringing in the bouncers for ID on assault charges, it was about 5 months later, and none could be succesfully IDed...
Another time, they brought us in under Drunk and Disordedly... because we we're laughing loud (they started by accusing us of laughing at them, then, when we didn't bite, went to D&D) it wasn't even 8h00pm...
Another time, they brought one of my friend under suspicion of assault. They had answered a call from a bar, and where screening people at the door, and when my friend came out for a cig, and just said 'wow, lots of pigs here', they picked him up. Regardless of the fact that he didn't fit at all the description of the assaulter. But that's okay, we were law school buddies, so I know he ripped them a new one in front of the judge...
Ah, good old alcohol related incidents. My Battalion had the highest number of 'em in all of USAREUR for about a 4-5 month stretch in 2006. Good times. Got to be they didn't even punish the soldiers anymore, since so many NCOs were causing 'em.
- my favorite was one of the mechanic sergeants in my company motor pool got dissed by some german skinhead dude, said and I quote "We kicked your ass in WWII and I am gonna kick your ass now." and proceeded to hit him in the face with a pool ball so hard his eye fell out. Whilst wearing a full on Canadian tuxedo.
Testify wrote:Seriously if a cop did something like this on an English city center, there'd be blood on the streets.
Didn't a cop shove a random and completely innocent citizen so hard to the ground that he died due to his head slamming against the concrete?
Yes, that and also the guy who got pulled out of a wheelchair during some of the protests last year. There was a report that he was wheeling towards the riot policeman in a menacing manner.. (seriously!)
That video with the sausage dog & firework just made me spill my tea by the way!
Dakka. Where people will come to defend a policeman who kicks a sitting, handcuffed woman. I mean, there haven't been many to justify this, but still, Dakka is an amazing place.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Frazzled wrote:
Brilliant!
Automatically Appended Next Post:
black templar wrote:We don't believe in beating the gak out of everybody but have you seen half of the scum the police have to deal with? I don't see why there is a hatred for police officers if there was no police force everywhere would be a flaming ruin.
We as a society think its possible to place some kind of restrictions on police, while still having them in existance. Exactly where that line is drawn is subjective and up for debate, but just about everyone thinks 'kick a women who's handcuffed and sitting' is not something they need to be able to do to keep society from falling into a flaming ruin.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Tye_Informer wrote:Looking at the video now, I have very little sympathy for the woman. She should know that she's in a lot of trouble and needs to settle down, she didn't. If she had not kicked at the cop he would have written his report and moved on. She kicked at him, he kicked at her, unfortunately for her, he hit her a lot harder than she did. Bummer, but that's the way it is.
You're mistake there is in looking at this in the very limited 'who can we pass judgement on' way. Don't think about the women, don't pass stuff through a filter of 'who can I say did something wrong and therefore ignore completely'. Just think about what police should and shouldn't be able to do.
At which point you should ask 'should policemen be allowed to kick handcuffed, sitting people who are no chance of escaping, or of harming an officer or member of the public?' And the answer to that is 'of course they shouldn't, what a stupid question'.
As such, what the officer did was wrong. Whether his action was instigated by someone who also did something wrong is irrelevant.
I'm sure a ton of people on here disagree with me, but that's not going to change my opinion.
You shouldn't consider changing your opinion because lots of people disagree with you, you should consider changing it because people have shown you the flaws in the reasoning you used to reach your opinion.
I am a veteran police officer. I have been one for over 14 years in a pretty tough bordertown in southern New Mexico. I think the officer in the video was completely unjustified in kicking that drunk woman. I have never seen anything like that in my job experience. I would report it if I saw it. I think some of the posters here have a reading comprehension problem. He was convicted of battery. He didn't get off scott free. Yeah, the sentence was suspended but apparently most of you have no idea how the USA legal system works. I have seen convicted murders and rapist leave prison after 8 years. Most white collar criminals never see the inside of a jail. What he did would be a misdemeanor in most jurisdictions. Less than a year in jail at the most.
I have read all the anecdotes about bad police officers ya'll have been sharing. I have seen some of that myself. Before I went to the Academy, I was a singer for a Death Metal band with a 2 foot long ponytail and an unhealthy addiction to Blood Bowl and Cannibal Corpse. I had my share of attention from cops. What makes me really mad is the trash talk from "kids" who have no idea what they are talking about. Some of you need to get a job and get some reality. Try being a cop in your community. The job is way tougher than most of you can handle. Again, I think the cop that kicked that chick was a punk. He ain't me. He ain't my pals. We hate guys like that. I ride a 2011 Harley everyday and give tons of speeding tickets. It's a good job and I think I have made a difference.
templarboy wrote:I have read all the anecdotes about bad police officers ya'll have been sharing. I have seen some of that myself. Before I went to the Academy, I was a singer for a Death Metal band with a 2 foot long ponytail and an unhealthy addiction to Blood Bowl and Cannibal Corpse. I had my share of attention from cops. What makes me really mad is the trash talk from "kids" who have no idea what they are talking about. Some of you need to get a job and get some reality. Try being a cop in your community. The job is way tougher than most of you can handle. Again, I think the cop that kicked that chick was a punk. He ain't me. He ain't my pals. We hate guys like that. I ride a 2011 Harley everyday and give tons of speeding tickets. It's a good job and I think I have made a difference.
The 'hatred' for cops I spoke about was certainly an exageration. It's mostly a mild dislike and an actual discomfort. You have to understand, it seems that a lot of cops don't share your ideals of professionnalism. In the last 2 shootings in Montreal in which the police was involve, each had a collateral kill. On top of things, right now, the police is seriously antagonising a large part of the population with the student strike repression. We're called marxists, revolutionnaries (lol), the police sets up phone taps of student associations as part of the anti-anarchist program, we get arrested for wearing panda costumes during the manifestations...
Here, right now, ''being a cop in the community'' means ''being a tool of the establishment in repressing the damn pinko strikers who manifests against a price hike''. You have to be aware of that side as well.
I also think it's completely disengenuous to say that cops keeps us from anarchy, death and fires everywhere. Criminals are (mostly) after profit, which doesn't exists in a wasteland...
I was liking your post until I read the "go get a jerb!" nonsense...
If you want to claim others have no clue what's going on with police, I'd say you need to shut your face about trying to find a job, because you don't have any recent experience on that apparently...
Melissia wrote:I was liking your post until I read the "go get a jerb!" nonsense...
If you want to claim others have no clue what's going on with police, I'd say you need to shut your face about trying to find a job, because you don't have any recent experience on that apparently...
Nice to see that you are still so polite. I would suggest that "you need to shut your face" because apparently you can't write anything without making it personal and inflammatory. Take a nap or something. Tell me all about your bad day but don't kick me because your feelings were hurt in a way I never intended.
I really like how you cherry picked that one statement and tried to use it to invalidate everything I said. What I was saying is the typical internet forum poster that talks out his butt needs to grow up a bit. Growing up usually means emerging from your grandmother basement and getting a job. Ya know, getting some responsibilties and all that goes along with being an adult. Then come talk to me about what is fair and real.
Nice try on shutting me up but your passive aggressive garbage would be better pointed somewhere else. Go complain about the WD Sisters codex or something.
templarboy wrote: I really like how you cherry picked that one statement
I like how you didn't actually read my post and didn't pay attention to it when you tried to respond to it.
You know, like how I said:
Melissia wrote:I was liking your post until I read the "go get a jerb!" nonsense...
I did read your post. And then I got to the nonsense about "gert a jerb" and it ruined the entire thing. And... yes. One ignorant statement like that can, in fact, ruin a post. Posting paternalistic nonsense like "grow up" and "get a job" does not make your posts intelligent or knowledgeable. It makes them insufferably smug and arrogant.
Which you are. Trying to talk down to people like they're children just makes you sound like an obnoxious twit, it does not endear you to anyone, nor does it make anyone want to respect you. But it might make them ignore your worthless, nonsensical, and ignorant advice.
templarboy wrote:I have read all the anecdotes about bad police officers ya'll have been sharing. I have seen some of that myself. Before I went to the Academy, I was a singer for a Death Metal band with a 2 foot long ponytail and an unhealthy addiction to Blood Bowl and Cannibal Corpse. I had my share of attention from cops. What makes me really mad is the trash talk from "kids" who have no idea what they are talking about. Some of you need to get a job and get some reality. Try being a cop in your community. The job is way tougher than most of you can handle. Again, I think the cop that kicked that chick was a punk. He ain't me. He ain't my pals. We hate guys like that. I ride a 2011 Harley everyday and give tons of speeding tickets. It's a good job and I think I have made a difference.
The 'hatred' for cops I spoke about was certainly an exageration. It's mostly a mild dislike and an actual discomfort. You have to understand, it seems that a lot of cops don't share your ideals of professionnalism. In the last 2 shootings in Montreal in which the police was involve, each had a collateral kill. On top of things, right now, the police is seriously antagonising a large part of the population with the student strike repression. We're called marxists, revolutionnaries (lol), the police sets up phone taps of student associations as part of the anti-anarchist program, we get arrested for wearing panda costumes during the manifestations...
Here, right now, ''being a cop in the community'' means ''being a tool of the establishment in repressing the damn pinko strikers who manifests against a price hike''. You have to be aware of that side as well.
I also think it's completely disengenuous to say that cops keeps us from anarchy, death and fires everywhere. Criminals are (mostly) after profit, which doesn't exists in a wasteland...
I agree with people generally disliking cops, although it's not a hatred. When someone at my school said he wanted to be a policeman, most of the class just started laughing because rather than thinking it through they automatically think "policemen are bad, and that's a stupid job". I find it rediculous.
templarboy wrote:Some of you need to get a job and get some reality. Try being a cop in your community. The job is way tougher than most of you can handle.
Why should we try to be understanding when we can simply fire you?
templarboy wrote: I really like how you cherry picked that one statement
I like how you didn't actually read my post and didn't pay attention to it when you tried to respond to it.
You know, like how I said:
Melissia wrote:I was liking your post until I read the "go get a jerb!" nonsense...
I did read your post. And then I got to the nonsense about "gert a jerb" and it ruined the entire thing. And... yes. One ignorant statement like that can, in fact, ruin a post. Posting paternalistic nonsense like "grow up" and "get a job" does not make your posts intelligent or knowledgeable. It makes them insufferably smug and arrogant.
Which you are. Trying to talk down to people like they're children just makes you sound like an obnoxious twit, it does not endear you to anyone, nor does it make anyone want to respect you. But it might make them ignore your worthless, nonsensical, and ignorant advice.
Personal and inflammatory as usual. Since I am not "intelligent or knowledgeable" about my subject, enlighten me. Be productive instead of accusatory and lighten up on the ad hominem attacks. They don't make you intelligent or knowledgeable either. No wonder they ran you off from Bolter and Chainsword.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
dogma wrote:
templarboy wrote:Some of you need to get a job and get some reality. Try being a cop in your community. The job is way tougher than most of you can handle.
Why should we try to be understanding when we can simply fire you?
How would you go about this? Do you know how many times I have heard " I am gonna get yer badge!"? Back to what I was saying. Before spewing hatred against an entire group of people who do a very tough job, step into their perspective. If you fired me, who would you call for help? Your buddies? Good luck with that. How would you change the system? How would you make it better? Until those talking garbage have a better idea, I suggest they moderate their rhetoric.
Bribery, probably with the use of connections. More likely I'll just note your name, and feed an unflattering story to local journalists; which is to say make you more trouble than you're worth.
This is, of course, provided you do something like kick a woman in the head.
templarboy wrote:
Do you know how many times I have heard " I am gonna get yer badge!"?
Probably thousands, and if they can't pronounce the word "your" they probably don't know how to go about it. Hell, even if they can they probably don't.
templarboy wrote:
Back to what I was saying. Before spewing hatred against an entire group of people who do a very tough job, step into their perspective. If you fired me, who would you call for help? Your buddies? Good luck with that. How would you change the system? How would you make it better? Until those talking garbage have a better idea, I suggest they moderate their rhetoric.
If I fired you I would call your replacement. We have 300 million people you know, and many are unemployed.
You're expendable to everyone that you don't refer to in a familiar manner. Until you understand that, I suggest you moderate your rhetoric.
templarboy wrote:Before spewing hatred against an entire group of people who do a very tough job, step into their perspective.
That being the perspective of the guys that do their job fine, or that of those that kicks ladies they've just arrested? You lump togheter a group of people due to their job description, and not how well they do it, and how dedicated to the principles they should defend. By doing so, you defend the actions of those people, even tho you might not want to, because you request respect to be laid at the feet of 'an entire group of people who do a very tough job'. Problem is, doing a tough job doesn't entitle you to any respect, if you end up botching the job.
When the fine officers out there stop defending the crappy officers out there, you'll have a point. Until then, I'll keep being as worried by officers as I am by the crackheads in the park next to my place, because up until now I've never seen crackheads use the law to abuse, sequester and kill people, but I've seen/known of officers who've done so.
If you fired me, who would you call for help? Your buddies? Good luck with that. How would you change the system? How would you make it better? Until those talking garbage have a better idea, I suggest they moderate their rhetoric.
Neighbourhood watches aren't that ineffective, at least up here, although they might not be a much better solution than cops has far as potential abuse of situation. I guess the real solution would be to find an effective way to weed out the potential abusers out of the officers training classes, before they even get a chance to get in position of power. Psychology ; building a better world with better people
Alternatively we could just turn you all into gun servitors (hey you asked for solutions, not feasible solutions )
I'm getting so sick of the unwarranted hatred toward police. Yeah, there are some that abuse their power, but instances like these are inflated by the attention it gets. I'm guessing she was being uncooperative to begin with, and you very nearly deserve a kick to the head if you attempt to assault a police officer after getting arrested. What he did was stupid, but what she did was more stupid. I don't think his punishment was too lenient at all.
starhawks wrote:I'm getting so sick of the unwarranted hatred toward police. Yeah, there are some that abuse their power, but instances like these are inflated by the attention it gets. I'm guessing she was being uncooperative to begin with, and you very nearly deserve a kick to the head if you attempt to assault a police officer after getting arrested. What he did was stupid, but what she did was more stupid. I don't think his punishment was too lenient at all.
NO.
What he did was criminal. Its jerks like this that make people hate the police.
In the areas where police are an occupation force its far worse.
starhawks wrote:I'm getting so sick of the unwarranted hatred toward police. Yeah, there are some that abuse their power, but instances like these are inflated by the attention it gets. I'm guessing she was being uncooperative to begin with, and you very nearly deserve a kick to the head if you attempt to assault a police officer after getting arrested. What he did was stupid, but what she did was more stupid. I don't think his punishment was too lenient at all.
NO.
What he did was criminal. Its jerks like this that make people hate the police.
In the areas where police are an occupation force its far worse.
So you think it's justified to hate the entire police force and be suspicious and hostile towards every police officer because of incidents like these? Why is it that everyone ignores those officers that die trying to take down dangerous criminals or saving helpless people? It's extremely unfair, and in my experience the only people who are hostile towards police are those who have gotten in trouble with them for doing something illegal and are bitter.
starhawks wrote:I'm getting so sick of the unwarranted hatred toward police. Yeah, there are some that abuse their power, but instances like these are inflated by the attention it gets. I'm guessing she was being uncooperative to begin with, and you very nearly deserve a kick to the head if you attempt to assault a police officer after getting arrested. What he did was stupid, but what she did was more stupid. I don't think his punishment was too lenient at all.
NO. What he did was criminal. Its jerks like this that make people hate the police. In the areas where police are an occupation force its far worse.
So you think it's justified to hate the entire police force and be suspicious and hostile towards every police officer because of incidents like these? Why is it that everyone ignores those officers that die trying to take down dangerous criminals or saving helpless people? It's extremely unfair, and in my experience the only people who are hostile towards police are those who have gotten in trouble with them for doing something illegal and are bitter.
1. I think its justified to hate everyone. 2. What hate? Its not an either / or option. This isn't "we love the Po Po" vs. "the Man is keeping me down." Thats elementary school level morality. Its simply required professionalism on the part of people we have agreed to give extra powers to. If they can't meet those minimum standards then they shouldn't be employed as police officers. Simple as pie. As an example. She Who Must Be Obeyed was pulled over Saturday, with yours truly riding shotgun. She got flustered, then got mad later, but then got deflustered. The officer was polite, businesslike, and highly professional. In contrast to LA, not once did he stick a pistol in my face. I intend to send a letter commending his behavior. If I were back in LA, we would have been spread eagle on the ground, interrogated, and generally treated as "the enemy."
I freely admit I'd be a horrible cop. On the positive I'd be an easily bribed cop. . . Its not a bribe, its just tangible appreciation of my fine performance.
starhawks wrote:
It's extremely unfair, and in my experience the only people who are hostile towards police are those who have gotten in trouble with them for doing something illegal and are bitter.
Man that is such nonsense. I told you I'm pretty middle class these days, all my mates are lawyers and engineers, I don't know anyone who has been arrested inside 15 years, and most have never been nicked ever at all, and as I said, most still have some distrust for the bobbies.
I think you need to take it in context, yes we distrust policemen, but you still take them on an individual basis because loads of cops are really good people! Its not like when I say "I generally dislike cops" means I fething hate them all and give them gak in the street! I talk to cops regularly, ask the directions when I'm abroad or ask them the time, there is a big difference between saying you don't trust the police (thanks to so many stories in the press, you would have to be pretty stupid to trust them entirely!) and actually doing anything about it.
I think you are getting your wires crossed if you think the vast majority of people in this thread genuinely hate the police and go out of their way to cause them stress, because that certainly isn't the case.
I am a law abiding citizen with no criminal record, and I always try to do my bit, I wouldn't give a policeman abuse just for being a cop. But as Mel said, can you really blame people for being guarded in this day and age?! If you regularly read the news, then common sense dictates you are wary of both the criminal and the policeman!
starhawks wrote:
So you think it's justified to hate the entire police force and be suspicious and hostile towards every police officer because of incidents like these?
Melissia wrote:Actually, most of the time it gets little to no attention and the cops get away with a slap on the wrist at most.
Any facts to back this up? I don't know what country you live in but every time a cop does just about anything illegal it is big news in the US. In my department, any accusation, no matter how small, is investigated with some serious zeal. However, as far as the press is concerned "If it bleeds, it leads." Everyone loves to see "The Man" get taken down. It's just like the priestly pedophiles. They make the news because it is salacious. Same with cops. The vast majority are fine people beyond reproach. Same with the priests. If a cop, priest or teacher molests a kid, it is bigger news because there is an expectation of public trust. That is as it should be. I think of myself as kinda like Spider-man. "With great power, comes great responsibility".I am extra careful even in my personal life. My wife was very frustrated with me when my daughter was little because I refused to drive our baby sitter home by myself. All it takes is one false accusation to ruin a career.
Melissia wrote:Actually, most of the time it gets little to no attention and the cops get away with a slap on the wrist at most.
Any facts to back this up? I don't know what country you live in but every time a cop does just about anything illegal it is big news in the US.
The more pressing issue might be the massive amount of cover-ups and the networking between judicial and executive branch. Melissia has it right that cops usually get far more lenient punishments - but even more worrying is how hard it is to get them trialed in the first place.
Respect for police officers will go up again once the public feels that the departments are actively investigating such incidents instead of obstructing justice due to a twisted sense of cameraderie. I realize it must be hard "ratting out" fellow officers, but at the same time I don't think I could stand showing support for the people who do such things, like their department did. I'm not sure if it is possible to retain the (imho) necessary bond between officers whilst at the same time cultivating an environment that shuns and shuts out those who "besmirch the badge" with their behaviour. Perhaps "problematic" departments need to be shut down entirely and the entire force fired, and re-built from the ground up, with fresh officers uncorrupted by the atmosphere that had tainted the old. This, on the other hand, would cost money that just isn't there. Same with psychological programs to help deal with job-induced stress or detect and filter out "bad eggs".
God this is conflicting, I'm normally against death penalty, but I think I wouldn't care too much if somebody doused these fethers in kerosene and dropped the matches...
Melissia wrote:Actually, most of the time it gets little to no attention and the cops get away with a slap on the wrist at most.
Any facts to back this up? I don't know what country you live in but every time a cop does just about anything illegal it is big news in the US.
The more pressing issue might be the massive amount of cover-ups and the networking between judicial and executive branch. Melissia has it right that cops usually get far more lenient punishments - but even more worrying is how hard it is to get them trialed in the first place.
Respect for police officers will go up again once the public feels that the departments are actively investigating such incidents instead of obstructing justice due to a twisted sense of cameraderie. I realize it must be hard "ratting out" fellow officers, but at the same time I don't think I could stand showing support for the people who do such things, like their department did. I'm not sure if it is possible to retain the (imho) necessary bond between officers whilst at the same time cultivating an environment that shuns and shuts out those who "besmirch the badge" with their behaviour. Perhaps "problematic" departments need to be shut down entirely and the entire force fired, and re-built from the ground up, with fresh officers uncorrupted by the atmosphere that had tainted the old. This, on the other hand, would cost money that just isn't there. Same with psychological programs to help deal with job-induced stress or detect and filter out "bad eggs".
I looked at all the links you posted and they don't back up the claim that most incidents are covered up and cops get off with lenient punishment. Looks like there was swift and harsh justice to the cops in at least the Kelly Thomas case. The cops were arrested and charged with murder. Not seeing your point.
Your last paragraph is idealistic and impractical. While you are disbanding entire departments and training up an entire force of rookies with zero experience, who is doing the cop's job? Do you have any idea how long it takes to train a cop? I was in intensive and expensive training for nearly a year. Not counting the college classes I took just to qualify me for the Academy in the first place. For my department, the city spends over $40,000 in training and equipment before a rookie sees a minute of solo street time.
You are from Ireland. There are less than 5 million people there. The USA is 60 times bigger. We are going to have more problems here. These problems are going to look like they are widespread to you. They aren't. Almost all the cops I know, are trustworthy public servants. I have met a few bad ones but I bet you know a few jerks yourself. I have seen most of these bad cops get their butts fired.
templarboy wrote:Looks like there was swift and harsh justice to the cops in at least the Kelly Thomas case. The cops were arrested and charged with murder. Not seeing your point.
Really?
#1 The department at first issued false statements suggesting that the officers were "defending" themselves
#2 It took 2 friggin' months to arrest two out of six perpetrators, the other four apparently not even getting charged ("swift"?)
#3 The department raised money for their bail and defense
It is rather obvious that the primary reason these cops were put on trial was not because they committed a crime, but because they were filmed doing so. The entire thing blew up like a bomb and mobilized the public, else it would've been swept under a rug because nobody cares about a bum.
I'm really interested in seeing what sentences they will receive - if they are found guilty as charged.
templarboy wrote:Your last paragraph is idealistic and impractical.
That's what I wrote, didn't I? Blame the politicians for cutting the budgets.
templarboy wrote:You are from Ireland.
Actually, I'm from Germany. I just emigrated here about 5 years ago.
templarboy wrote:These problems are going to look like they are widespread to you.
Actually, no. What is looking widespread to me is the departments' unwillingness to clean up their own mess - as I was mentioning earlier, I find this far more distressing than the incidents themselves, because it hints at the existence of even more such incidents where a cover-up has been successful. Almost always when I read of any case of police brutality in the news, it's either that nothing happens or that somebody attempts to deliberately cover it up. Where are the news with headlines like "valiant cop exposes cartel of drug-dealing officers" and so on? For some reason, it's almost always an outside force that, with much effort, attempts to penetrate a thick wall of blatant lies and sudden cases of amnesia.
Maybe your department is different. I can't judge that - and if you'd have read my previous posts in this thread, I have even objected to painting all cops with the same brush. I can however say how it looks for one random citizen when browsing through the news, and that the frequency of such incidents is almost as alarming as the solidarity and support the perpretrators seemingly receive from their colleagues and superiors.
Ya know what ya'll? I am done. Your ivory tower intellectualism is impossible to defeat without you actually stepping into my shoes and doing the job for yourselves. I can tell you how hard it is to be a police officer til I am blue in face but it doesn't make a difference. You just don't know and you never will. I am going to go back to reading articles about how to magnetize my new Storm Talon and how everyone hopes the new Chaos stuff kicks butt. Oh and just for Melissia-I really hope the WD Sisters codex fares better in 6th ed.
templarboy wrote: Your ivory tower intellectualism
So instead of admitting that there's a real issue, that these fethers have really gangbanged a guy for 10 minutes, that this case, while perhaps the worst in contemporary memory, is in no way unique, you accuse us of putting on eye-blinds through intellectualism? Well, I guess you'll never know how hard it is to argue with obstinate cops without stepping into my shoes. I can tell you how hard it is to be a reasonnable human being who hates abuse of power until I am blue, but it won't make a difference. You just don't know and you will never will.
Two sides to a coin. There are good cops and ther are bad cops. Some though are saying all cops go with the 2nd type. Templerboy was defending the good cops.
Jihadin wrote:Two sides to a coin. There are good cops and ther are bad cops. Some though are saying all cops go with the 2nd type. Templerboy was defending the good cops.
Acceptance of the coin having two sides would indeed go a long way.
Jihadin wrote:Two sides to a coin. There are good cops and ther are bad cops. Some though are saying all cops go with the 2nd type. Templerboy was defending the good cops.
No. What Templarboy was doing is what is hateful about every kind a fraternity that inflates the ego of it's members for no other reason than justify the power they get, and possibly abuse. He is saying that no matter what, we'll never know how hard it is to be a cop, and that means we have no way of judging what a cop does. Regardless of the fact that cops do not have an exclusivity on hard gak happening to them. Regardless of the fact that some cops might actually have had pretty cool lives. Regardless of the fact that the cops that goes nuts and kick ladies, or gangbang hobos, might simply have been unstable and should never have been given a badge.
To me it's simple. Attitude like his justifies every man who decides to carry a gun on himself for self-defense.
templarboy wrote:Ya know what ya'll? I am done. Your ivory tower intellectualism
A cute way to try to dismiss everyone else's claims.
But cute does not equate with non-pathetic.
I don't even know if you are a cop, nor do I really care. But the fact remains that you are living in denial of the many, MANY problems that the police forces in the US, and indeed globally, have.
I have nothing against cops. I like good cops, and I know many of them. But that doesn't prevent me from pointing out that there are also a lot of bad cops. The combined effect of criminals who are willing to masquerade as cops and cops who are basically criminals in uniform means that being suspicious of the police force is perfectly reasonable.
That's why many sites recommend, for example, that when a woman is pulled over by a lone cop-- especially in a secluded area or at night-- you call dispatch to confirm the cop's presence. Most good cops will understand it, but some of the less competent ones will get upset. They are to be ignored.
templarboy wrote:Ya know what ya'll? I am done. Your ivory tower intellectualism is impossible to defeat without you actually stepping into my shoes and doing the job for yourselves. I can tell you how hard it is to be a police officer til I am blue in face but it doesn't make a difference. You just don't know and you never will. I am going to go back to reading articles about how to magnetize my new Storm Talon and how everyone hopes the new Chaos stuff kicks butt. Oh and just for Melissia-I really hope the WD Sisters codex fares better in 6th ed.
Blah blah blah. My wife was part of the police for years. Blah blah blah.
If you can't be professional, you don't deserve to have the job. That applies to everything, but especially ones where you can legally shoot people.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Kovnik Obama wrote:
To me it's simple. Attitude like his justifies every man who decides to carry a gun on himself for self-defense.
Here's the part where you need to get over yourself and stop nonsense. This is where the cop rightfully gets defensive.
You're some kid in Canada, not some Crip rolling in Pomona oppressed by The Man.
Frazzled wrote:Here's the part where you need to get over yourself and stop nonsense. This is where the cop rightfully gets defensive.
You're some kid in Canada, not some Crip rolling in Pomona oppressed by The Man.
If you see your security as an issue, and realize cops can become a threat as much as a defense, then you realize you are the only person you can seriously trust with your own defense. Cops can be defensive all they want, until they learn to fight crimes inside the precinct as much as outside, they are just not reliable. I don't see security as a personnal issue myself, since like I said, I've always been perfectly able to avoid potentially threatening situations by simply being polite and too damn cute to get angry at. But I don't exactly go and hang out in the bad parts of town. I don't see how I could have presented myself as 'someone who's being put down by the man'.
If that hobo had survived, would he have been justified in carrying a gun for the rest of his days? Feth yeah. Hell you'd have been justified in pulling a gun on the gangbanging cops if you caught them in the act (although I think everyone can sees why that wouldn't have turned to your advantage).
I know I said I was done with this argument but I couldn't help sharing this little tidbit. I did a "google" search on "police heroism" and got 4 million hits. I did a "google" search on "police corruption" and got 46 million hits. Like I said "If it bleeds, it leads". The press like sexy stories. Police corruption stories are interesting to most people. Much more interesting than the heroism that happens far more frequently. Try going on a citizen "ride along" with a friendly neighborhood patrolman. You might see something neat.
Also to the poster above that is thinking about carrying a gun to defend himself from the evil corrupt police-think twice. They are wearing ballistic vests. You aren't. They practice. A Lot. They have advanced training. You don't. I don't think the RCMP are a bunch of push-overs that would take kindly to you "defending" yourself from them with a gun. Try being cooperative first. Let it all work it's way out in Court. I would never recommend resisting even what you think is an unlawful arrest. It will go badly. You might win the lawsuit but that broken jaw might take a bit of time to heal. Not saying it's right. Just saying that that is the way of the world.
2009 in Atlanta, Georgia had a group of SWAT officers charge in to a gay bar without a warrant, beating people confiscating their ID, forcing them to lay down on broken glass, shouting homophobic slurs and threatening to beat them to death, and kicking numerous patrons. The police department claims that they followed protocol despite the fact that no one in the bar was actually suspected of any criminal activity, and illegally searched everyone in the bar.
No officers were punished.
2009, Dolton, Illinois, a mentally disabled student was repeatedly punched in the face for not tucking his shirt in, slammed against a wall, and had to be physically forced off of the teen by student sand teachers.
His only "punishment" was paid administrative leave and quietly being asked to resign afterwards. He avoided the punishment due to him.
2010, Indianapolis, Indiana, a pregnant woman called 911 to help her friend who was having a seizure. She was thrown on the ground, repeatedly kicked, She was arrested, placed i na holding cell, and beaten until she miscarried, and was later admitted in to a hospital for severe cuts and bruises.
No punishment was given to the officer, and the department tried to cover it up. The court case is still on going.
In 2005 shortly after Hurricane Katrina, two incidents: A man was shot and then let bleed to death (The police officers present attacking anyone who tried to help), and then his body was tossed on a car and burned. Two days later, eight unarmed civilians were shot, including a mentally challenged man who was shot in the back. Two were killed, six more injured by gunfire. The officers came up with a cover story, planted a gun on the scene, and lied to the public about what happened.
Until the courts found the department guilty of cover-up, the cops were completely unpunished in both incidents. The police department tried to cover both of them up.
2011, Prince George's County, Maryland, a student was beaten and slammed against the wall repeatedly by cops in riot gear. They lied about what happened claimng the student attacked a police horse, but video evidence proved that it was police that did the assault and that the student did not attack any police.
The department attempted a cover-up, and officers were not charged or suspended until the FBI began conducting an investigation.
2011, San Antonio, Texas. An officer shot and killed a student who ran from him. It was later found out that the police department had a long record of the officer, and knew that he was dangerous and unstable with a history of misconduct, and yet they still decided to put him at a high school and give him a gun.
The lawsuit is ongoing. He faces termination, but no criminal charges.
2006, Fairfax, VIrginia. A man who was supposed to be arrested on gambling charges was shot in through the heart upon opening the door for police. He was known to be unarmed, and showed no signs of resistance.
No charges were filed.
2008, King County, Washington. A fifteen year old girl was brutally beaten by a police officer, who kicked her in the stomach, slammed her head against a wall, tossed her to the floor, hit her twice while she was on the ground ,then lifted her up by her hair and dragged her from the holding area away from the camera.
The city "encouraged" the prosecutor to drop all criminal charges, and the case ended in mistrial despite the clear and undeniable video evidence.
2009, Seattle, Washington. A man who was wrongly mistaken for an assault suspect was brutally slammed against a wall and mishandled after going unconscious. The officer lied about the event claiming he identified himself, when every witness to the case said otherwise. The victim was left brain-damaged and paralyzed from the waist down.
The officer was not punished, nor were any charges filed. Until the courts awarded a ten million dollar punishment in th civil case, no punishment at all was given to anyone.
2007, Washington, District of Columbia. A woman was beaten, tossed across a room at another woman, and had her head slammed in to a metal table giving her permanent brain damage. The police officer who assaulted her later filed false charges against her which directly contradicted the witness statements and video evidence.
The court case is ongoing, but the department has done nothing to punish the officer involved.
I could go on practically forever-- there's thousands of these incidents in the past ten years-- but perhaps, Templarboy, I don't need to? Maybe you notice the pattern here? Police departments have a long history of covering up for their fellow officers. Which really just makes them equally complicit in the crimes of their corrupt so-called brethren. The reason you see more incidents these days is because it's easier to prove them and get past the corruption-- video evidence submitted to the media is hard to ignore.
Or maybe you really are so deluded as to think this kind of thing didn't happen before when it was easier to cover up? These are CRIMINALS. Just because they also happen to be police officers doesn't mean that they don't deserve punishment. In fact, being police who are criminals makes them WORSE than the criminals they're supposed to arrest.
Melissia wrote:2009 in Atlanta, Georgia had a group of SWAT officers charge in to a gay bar without a warrant, beating people confiscating their ID, forcing them to lay down on broken glass, shouting homophobic slurs and threatening to beat them to death, and kicking numerous patrons. The police department claims that they followed protocol despite the fact that no one in the bar was actually suspected of any criminal activity, and illegally searched everyone in the bar.
No officers were punished.
2009, Dolton, Illinois, a mentally disabled student was repeatedly punched in the face for not tucking his shirt in, slammed against a wall, and had to be physically forced off of the teen by student sand teachers.
His only "punishment" was paid administrative leave and quietly being asked to resign afterwards. He avoided the punishment due to him.
2010, Indianapolis, Indiana, a pregnant woman called 911 to help her friend who was having a seizure. She was thrown on the ground, repeatedly kicked, She was arrested, placed i na holding cell, and beaten until she miscarried, and was later admitted in to a hospital for severe cuts and bruises.
No punishment was given to the officer, and the department tried to cover it up. The court case is still on going.
In 2005 shortly after Hurricane Katrina, two incidents: A man was shot and then let bleed to death (The police officers present attacking anyone who tried to help), and then his body was tossed on a car and burned. Two days later, eight unarmed civilians were shot, including a mentally challenged man who was shot in the back. Two were killed, six more injured by gunfire. The officers came up with a cover story, planted a gun on the scene, and lied to the public about what happened.
Until the courts found the department guilty of cover-up, the cops were completely unpunished in both incidents. The police department tried to cover both of them up.
2011, Prince George's County, Maryland, a student was beaten and slammed against the wall repeatedly by cops in riot gear. They lied about what happened claimng the student attacked a police horse, but video evidence proved that it was police that did the assault and that the student did not attack any police.
The department attempted a cover-up, and officers were not charged or suspended until the FBI began conducting an investigation.
2011, San Antonio, Texas. An officer shot and killed a student who ran from him. It was later found out that the police department had a long record of the officer, and knew that he was dangerous and unstable with a history of misconduct, and yet they still decided to put him at a high school and give him a gun.
The lawsuit is ongoing. He faces termination, but no criminal charges.
2006, Fairfax, VIrginia. A man who was supposed to be arrested on gambling charges was shot in through the heart upon opening the door for police. He was known to be unarmed, and showed no signs of resistance.
No charges were filed.
2008, King County, Washington. A fifteen year old girl was brutally beaten by a police officer, who kicked her in the stomach, slammed her head against a wall, tossed her to the floor, hit her twice while she was on the ground ,then lifted her up by her hair and dragged her from the holding area away from the camera.
The city "encouraged" the prosecutor to drop all criminal charges, and the case ended in mistrial despite the clear and undeniable video evidence.
2009, Seattle, Washington. A man who was wrongly mistaken for an assault suspect was brutally slammed against a wall and mishandled after going unconscious. The officer lied about the event claiming he identified himself, when every witness to the case said otherwise. The victim was left brain-damaged and paralyzed from the waist down.
The officer was not punished, nor were any charges filed. Until the courts awarded a ten million dollar punishment in th civil case, no punishment at all was given to anyone.
2007, Washington, District of Columbia. A woman was beaten, tossed across a room at another woman, and had her head slammed in to a metal table giving her permanent brain damage. The police officer who assaulted her later filed false charges against her which directly contradicted the witness statements and video evidence.
The court case is ongoing, but the department has done nothing to punish the officer involved.
I could go on practically forever-- there's thousands of these incidents in the past ten years-- but perhaps, Templarboy, I don't need to? Maybe you notice the pattern here? Police departments have a long history of covering up for their fellow officers. Which really just makes them equally complicit in the crimes of their corrupt so-called brethren. The reason you see more incidents these days is because it's easier to prove them and get past the corruption-- video evidence submitted to the media is hard to ignore.
Or maybe you really are so deluded as to think this kind of thing didn't happen before when it was easier to cover up? These are CRIMINALS. Just because they also happen to be police officers doesn't mean that they don't deserve punishment. In fact, being police who are criminals makes them WORSE than the criminals they're supposed to arrest.
I can top all of those stories Mel..
My missus always goes on about how much better the police are over here, and I think they suck too.. but anyway. She was on about how a British bobby got in heaps of trouble for pushing a guy over, and then she told me about this.. and I watched the film.
I honestly cant believe some of the gak the LAPD have pulled.. but that gak takes the cake.
Again, Melissia beats the same dead horse while failing to address my point of reporting bias. 4 million versus 46 million. Keep quoting the one sided anecdotes. They mean nothing without the full story. Of course you aren't interested in the full story because it doesn't back up your argument.
Sure there are bad cops. I bet there are bad people doing whatever job you do also. Cities "cover up" bad conduct because of extreme liability risk. If you want to reform the system, start with tort reform. In 14 years as a cop, I have never been sued. I am an anomaly. Admit that some of your anecdotes could be a wee bit biased. I admit my bias. If any of your uncited stories are true, I would encourage criminal charges in some of those cases for the bad cops. I never said I didn't. You said I didn't. I have testified in court against a bad cop who knifed a guy in a bar fight. You are actually preaching to the choir here.
I am not deluded. I just want people to recognize the good as well. But then again I am, what did you call me? An arrogant ignorant twit?
Again, Melissia beats the same dead horse while failing to address my point of reporting bias.
Your point is irrelevant to begin with, because just a single incident can damn an entire police department.
I never denied that most cops are good. Why do you act like I have, aside from wanting to live in denial of the fact that even good cops cover up the crimes of bad ones?
TB, you are having some issues communicating here.
Literally everyone on this thread who you are writing off as ignorant has said they like and support good cops, and that the majority of cops are good people.
Most of us have observed, however, that there is a disturbing and consistent trend, nationally and internationally, for police departments to cover up and minimize the real, documented, and provable misdeeds and crimes of officers.
None of us are saying that MOST officers are bad. Every one of us has said that most of them are good. But as you are aware, given that we are talking about "with great power comes great responsiblity" here, it only takes a few instances of abuse (and there are many, exhaustively documented ones) to make people wary and cautious. If I can literally kill someone legally, it is an egregious violation of both law and morality for me to abuse/misuse that power. And if we see this happen repeatedly, we are going to be cautious of any cop who seems at all unpleasant. It makes people uncomfortable to be around someone who is hostile and aggressive; pair that with knowledge that if this person chose to kill me, there's a chance that other police would shield him and conceal evidence, and he might get away scot free? That's downright scary.
You seem to agree with this, so I don't know why on earth you're abusing other people here in the thread for saying so.
Good to see that the same bunch of users and threads are still around, it's been a while
Anyway police brutality sucks along with the corruption that goes with it....see The Wire for a TV show on the subject
Even if a police department wanted to punish one of their own, it probably takes a lot of red tape, time, and they have to balance budget and manpower concerns. Dealing with drunk and even sober citizens has also got to be one of the most stressful and life threatening jobs around, and knowing that you're hated and distrusted doesn't help things. Anyway carry on, in no way is that a justification, just throwing stuff out there
Mannahnin wrote:TB, you are having some issues communicating here.
Literally everyone on this thread who you are writing off as ignorant has said they like and support good cops, and that the majority of cops are good people.
Most of us have observed, however, that there is a disturbing and consistent trend, nationally and internationally, for police departments to cover up and minimize the real, documented, and provable misdeeds and crimes of officers.
None of us are saying that MOST officers are bad. Every one of us has said that most of them are good. But as you are aware, given that we are talking about "with great power comes great responsiblity" here, it only takes a few instances of abuse (and there are many, exhaustively documented ones) to make people wary and cautious. If I can literally kill someone legally, it is an egregious violation of both law and morality for me to abuse/misuse that power. And if we see this happen repeatedly, we are going to be cautious of any cop who seems at all unpleasant. It makes people uncomfortable to be around someone who is hostile and aggressive; pair that with knowledge that if this person chose to kill me, there's a chance that other police would shield him and conceal evidence, and he might get away scot free? That's downright scary.
You seem to agree with this, so I don't know why on earth you're abusing other people here in the thread for saying so.
Spot on. I havent really understood TBs point considering everyone has said exactly that! In a nutshell "Most cops are good but some are arseholes so you cant blame people for being wary after all the big cases in the news regarding X Y Z"
Not a soul has said "All cops are scum" because clearly they arent and nobody thinks they are! So I don't really understand why he is arguing with anyone?
like I said before...two sides of a coin in this. The impression though from some posters is that all law enforcements are bad. Whats the total number of law enforcement officers that are doing the right thing compare to those that are not doing the right thing. I'm suprise though the videos from the OWS thread hasn't made an appearence yet on this.
Jihadin wrote:like I said before...two sides of a coin in this. The impression though from some posters is that all law enforcements are bad. Whats the total number of law enforcement officers that are doing the right thing compare to those that are not doing the right thing. I'm suprise though the videos from the OWS thread hasn't made an appearence yet on this.
Thank you for NOT putting words in to my posts and addressing what I said.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Mannahnin wrote:
You seem to agree with this, so I don't know why on earth you're abusing other people here in the thread for saying so.
I am abusing people? I have been called names and even had a guy tell me he could get me fired at anytime and I am the abuser. Ya know, it makes me wonder if you have even read the thread. Please show me where I have abused anyone and by all means get me banned.
I think the whole blue shield thing makes people distrustful of police officers because if they do abuse their power there is a chance they can get away with it...
Mannahnin wrote:You seem to agree with this, so I don't know why on earth you're abusing other people here in the thread for saying so.
I am abusing people?
When you say that people need to get a job and get some reality, and when you dismiss everyone who has a different opinion than you as being divorced from the real world ("ivory tower intellectualism"), yeah, you kind of are.
Folks are recounting their personal experiences, and citing widespread cases from the news. We respect that you live the life of a good and honest police officer, and that it's a hard job. We respect our friends who are police, and the good and helpful cops we meet in our day to day lives. We would appreciate you giving us the same respect of believing that our opinions are based on our personal experiences and on information we have from officers who are our personal friends, and from news stories that we read with a critical eye.
You don't get to say you're the only one in the thread who has an informed opinion. Not if you want a respectful and friendly dialogue. When you dismiss everyone else as ignorant and credulous, you come off as disrespectful and contemptuous, which is kind of absurd when pretty much everyone in the thread seems to be 90% in agreement with you.
templarboy wrote:I have been called names and even had a guy tell me he could get me fired at anytime and I am the abuser.
Two wrongs don't make a right. If you insult people, are you shocked if they react negatively? The discussion was pretty friendly until you waded in swinging with that "get a job and get some reality" stuff like you were trying to start a fight. You picked a fight, other people (particularly Melissia) obliged you, and I gave a public warning to you all to knock it off.
templarboy wrote: Ya know, it makes me wonder if you have even read the thread.
Did you? How about the part where dogma clarified that he would only try to get you fired if you were doing crap like kicking helpless people in the head?
templarboy wrote: Please show me where I have abused anyone and by all means get me banned.
If you needed to be suspended, I could suspend you, but honestly I don't think you've done anything yet bad enough to require it. And I prefer not to do it with someone whom I've having a disagreement with anyway. If I'm having a disagreement with someone on the forum and I think they're in violation of the rules, usually I'll report it like a regular user and let another moderator handle it, as they can be more impartial. I think you're a good guy who is not realizing that people in this thread support you and appreciate that you're a good and honest cop, but we have legitimate concerns about the prevalence of police abuse of authority, and the severity of its consequences. When you dismiss everyone else's concerns and experiences as unfounded and ignorant and not based on reality, you start prompting people to wonder why we should respect your opinions.
templarboy wrote:In 14 years as a cop, I have never been sued. I am an anomaly.
No police officer has ever been sued for actions taken in the line of duty. They may have been held on criminal charges, but that's not the same thing. I suspect most police officers have never been held on criminal charges.
Templerboy said
What makes me really mad is the trash talk from "kids" who have no idea what they are talking about. Some of you need to get a job and get some reality. Try being a cop in your community. The job is way tougher than most of you can handle. Again, I think the cop that kicked that chick was a punk. He ain't me. He ain't my pals. We hate guys like that. I ride a 2011 Harley everyday and give tons of speeding tickets. It's a good job and I think I have made a difference.
You all have to admit that are some kids who post on this. Or some individuals that were quick to jump all over it and not actually read what he wrote.. The other example will be the "Female in the infantry" thread about me mentioning the effect a wounded/killed female having an effect on males. Want to know how many times I wanted to post "your combat experience consist of what?"
This comment got the ball rolling into the negative on this thread.
I was liking your post until I read the "go get a jerb!" nonsense...
If you want to claim others have no clue what's going on with police, I'd say you need to shut your face about trying to find a job, because you don't have any recent experience on that apparently...
After that comment the police brutality additional comments would seem as a personnel attack on him from my view point by a couple posters.
For those not in law enforcement the closest thing that can relate to his experience is a combat vet. For those that are not a combat vet the closest thing you can experience what some of us felt is "Hurt Locker".
Jihadin, if I walk into a thread about (for example) international travel, where people are having a peaceable conversation and say "some of you need to go to another country and get some reality", that's inflammatory. I may well (and do) know a lot more about international travel than a lot of people, but that's not cause to be a dismissive jackass about it.
jihadin wrote:This comment got the ball rolling into the negative on this thread.
Melissia made quite clear that she agreed with him and liked his post until she got to the part where templarboy started being a dick. Then she was a dick back to him, which was out of line, and part of why I warned them both and the thread in general.
When? Just tonight? Originally I warned everyone, because even though I judged that he had started it, I thought other people reacted excessively and were out of line too.
The first warning was a general warning to everyone. Then the post of "two wrongs don't make a right" caught my attention. I was just saying how it escalated to this point.
I still love you Mannheim but not in a manly love way
I was just trying to reconcile templarboy with everyone else and explain that I'm not sure why there's a conflict here. Then he disagreed that he had done anything wrong, and asked me to explain whether/when he had.
In the judgment of this moderator, Melissia was out of line, and dogma could have been a bit friendlier, but both were provoked by tb's original inflammatory comment and dismissive attitude toward everyone else's perspectives and experiences. Now, if he's a cop of 14 years' experience, tb has legitimate grounds to say he knows more about the subject than most of us. But having a lot of knowledge about a topic doesn't mean no one else knows anything, and doesn't mean you need to be rude about it.
Melissa wrote:Aren't we off topic now? I thought we were talking about police brutality and the fact that they almost always get away with it.
Whistleblowing amongst cops is at an even lower rate than any other industry I can think of.
That's one place where I think you go off the rails a bit, Melissa. The nature of both those claims is that they're unprovable; so tb has legit grounds to feel you're slandering his profession and making statements you really can't back up.
Can you produce numbers comparing the rate of whistleblowing in different industries/professions?
A quick google search doesn't come up with a scholarly study-- I'll look deeper later. Although I do see evidence of police chiefs publicly intimidating whistleblowers, such as here:
templarboy wrote: Also to the poster above that is thinking about carrying a gun to defend himself from the evil corrupt police-think twice. They are wearing ballistic vests. You aren't. They practice. A Lot. They have advanced training. You don't.
Selective reading overdrive! I said someone would be justified in doing so. Not that he'd come out of it healthy. In fact I specifically said it wouldn't be a healthy choice. Here ;
(although I think everyone can sees why that wouldn't have turned to your advantage).
But it'd be justified. Why? Because if you can be justified in killing one or more person in order to save those they endanger, then you can be justified in killing one or more cops in order to save those they endanger. The fact that the odds aren't in the favour of the citizen defending themselves aren't really the issue when it's a recourse against gangbanging murderer cops, because the alternative of not doing anything and not defending yourself is of course worse.
I don't think the RCMP are a bunch of push-overs that would take kindly to you "defending" yourself from them with a gun. Try being cooperative first. Let it all work it's way out in Court. I would never recommend resisting even what you think is an unlawful arrest. It will go badly. You might win the lawsuit but that broken jaw might take a bit of time to heal. Not saying it's right. Just saying that that is the way of the world.
Court doesn't help the dead hobo. This is what we've been talking about, not the way I would resist arrest, because I simply do not put myself in situations where I might get arrested. Plus I'm less worried about the fine folks of the RCMP then I am about city cops and reserve cops. Everyone who watched Due South knows Mounties aren't even human, but genetically engineered mystics who can decipher the intent of criminals by sniffing their excrements, sworn to protect the Great White North.
templarboy wrote:I know I said I was done with this argument but I couldn't help sharing this little tidbit. I did a "google" search on "police heroism" and got 4 million hits. I did a "google" search on "police corruption" and got 46 million hits. Like I said "If it bleeds, it leads". The press like sexy stories. Police corruption stories are interesting to most people. Much more interesting than the heroism that happens far more frequently. Try going on a citizen "ride along" with a friendly neighborhood patrolman. You might see something neat.
Also to the poster above that is thinking about carrying a gun to defend himself from the evil corrupt police-think twice. They are wearing ballistic vests. You aren't. They practice. A Lot. They have advanced training. You don't. I don't think the RCMP are a bunch of push-overs that would take kindly to you "defending" yourself from them with a gun. Try being cooperative first. Let it all work it's way out in Court. I would never recommend resisting even what you think is an unlawful arrest. It will go badly. You might win the lawsuit but that broken jaw might take a bit of time to heal. Not saying it's right. Just saying that that is the way of the world.
Actually most aren't that practiced but you're right. The best way to deal with "Da Evil Manz" is through the legal system. There are bad cops, good cops, like everyone else. thinking they are all corrupt and evil and you're going to play cop killer on the dvd whilst you go down in a blaze of glory is...misplaced.
Thats a real slippery slope in killing a law enforcement officer in self defense. State of Indiana has a law allowing "Stand your Ground" type incident if the individual think law enforcement is in his house illegaly. Before anyone think about engaging an officer with fire arms then they need to be aware of "escalation of force" and basically the use of "deadly force" before pulling the trigger. Once the trigger is pulled its a whole new ball game then. Because law enforcement is now dealing with a "cop killer"
Frazzled wrote:Actually most aren't that practiced but you're right. The best way to deal with "Da Evil Manz" is through the legal system. There are bad cops, good cops, like everyone else. thinking they are all corrupt and evil and you're going to play cop killer on the dvd whilst you go down in a blaze of glory is...misplaced.
Just to be clear ; this isn't what I've suggested at any point.
Frazzled wrote:She tried to kick him first. He's in a tactically superior position and she's a dumbass. He's just helping Darwin along. Not seeing what the problem is.
Unfortunately fro that cop, we live in a society of laws, and cannot go around kicking whomever deserves it if we get caught on camera.. If that was the case, then I could get nothing else done all day and would have a crippling head-kicking related RSI.
Corrected your typo.
Everyone's glossing over this stealth wienerdog thing. Its like the news reports of the zombies. A few reports - meh wierd news, then all of the sudden you're fighting off zombies with a bottle of TUMs and a roll of toilet paper, all the while your ankles are being gnawed on by a pair of wiener dogs. You don't want to be fighting off the zombies with a bottle of TUMs do you?
In other news, we are hopeful that the pseudo seizure thing the Mighty TBone had Wendesday is nonrecurring and related to his alleregy like fit. He's not done it again, and except for very quickly climbing into my lap during a short bought of thunder whilst I was watching Predators has been completely normal since (read complete and utter donkey-cave of the universe).
I am prepared for your weiner dog onslaught fraz with my specialy trained dog hunting ninja cats. and my stash of meat to distract them with. And if all else fails my freinds sisters justin beiber CDs.
Getting back on-topic i have to say that the police do get away with a lot but then again so do private security companies. Its the way of the world-unless there caught on camera then theres no chance of justice and even then its incredibly slim.
)
