I don't quite understand all the hate for the Ultramarines.
I was painting a Homebrew chapter in a similar scheme to the Ultramarines and a few people at MLG would investigate and say something along the lines of "Smurfs, really?" to which I would then explain that they are not 'Smurfs' nor Ultramarines.
Another time a friend of mine visited and saw my marines. Assuming they were Ultramarines he then proceeded to ramble on about how they were the worst SM chapter without actually explaining WHY they are so terrible.
I personally have no problem with the Ultramarines nor do I favour them. I simply see them as a successful chapter who happens to be the flavour of choice on a lot of GW advertising.
My question is: Why do people hate the Ultramarines? What makes them so bad? People make fun of them calling them 'Smurfs' simply because they are blue but what is the reasoning for this seemingly irrational distaste?
Pretty much, its because they are blue. And they have been promoted as the poster boys of 40k for years, every poster seems to have blue Boy Scout marines on them.
Everyone loves a bad boy, and sorry, Ultrasmurfs are not that...
The Ultramarines have been GW's posterboys, it's true, but compared to other examples of ridiculous OTT pseudo-pwnage they are quite tame. Look at how well the Space Wolves fit in, the only thing truly making them appear like Marines being the power armour they wear.
Perhaps many people just "hate" on the Ultras because they are loyal to what the Adeptus Astartes should stand for - loyalty and dedication - instead of going all rebel like some other Chapters because "it's totally cool, duh, feth the system!"
That, and UM dislike is like some sort of fashion trend. People do it because "everybody does it".
Matt Ward wrote some terrible fluff for them. Ultimately, they are seen as Mary Sue's with no personality to them except for being "The Perfect Boys of the Imperium". So while there are other great chapters with some personality, the Ultramarines get shown off as "Flawless".
However, Garahm McNeil wrote some pretty good Ultramarine books that depict the Ultramarines as much more human and likable characters. If you ever want to defend the Ultramarines, read those books.
Your little plastic army men, do what you want with said little army men. Atleast your painting them.... You could anger them further by glueing little Mat Ward faces on the front of their helms and saying "spiritual liege" alot. Sometimes annoying the band wagoners is its own reward....
Swiftblade wrote:Ultimately, they are seen as Mary Sue's
No Chapter is as Mary-Sue as the one that has single-handedly bested the Navy of an entire Imperial Segmentum, and defended its Chapter Fortress with a skeleton crew of Vets against millions upon millions of Guardsmen.
Oh, and they can afford flipping off the Inquisition, too, and they totally don't use psykers because they call it something else. Did I forget something? What was that bit with the giant flying space whale that they boarded and fought from within?
The nameless wrote:Your little plastic army men, do what you want with said little army men. Atleast your painting them.... You could anger them further by glueing little Mat Ward faces on the front of their helms and saying "spiritual liege" alot. Sometimes annoying the band wagoners is its own reward....
Challenge accepted. The level of rage will be fantastic.
TedNugent wrote:I love the Ultramarines' color scheme.
Forget anybody who disagrees. Their Sternguard and Tactical Marines are the best looking models out of any army.
Are you for real, son?
They're blue with white helmets...
ERMERGERD AMAZENG.
If you honestly think those are the best looking models out of any army ever made then you my friend, are insane.
Yikes, that was harsh...
Just because you don't agree with him on what models look best doesn't mean he's insane. Chill out, man.
Man, why is it so hard to give tone to typing online? It wasn't meant as an insult. If I wanted to insult someone I'd say something a bit worse than that.
I think some of it was the idea that that every Marine whats to be like them that Matt Ward wrote in the last codex, kinda irked some other SM players.
To be honest, I never really cared for them since I started, not quite sure why, just something about them. The Space Marine game restored some respect, Captain Titus and Sergent Sidonus were awesome
LoneLictor wrote:Cuz Matt Ward wrote some poor quality fluff for them and the faction became strongly associated with it.
And it starts. Thank you for not ever seeing anything past 5th for your assessment of the 40k fluff and and Mat Ward's "contribution"...
Did you even read my post?
All I said was that the faction became strongly associated with Matt Ward's fluff. Which is true. When people bring up the Ultramarines they almost always bring up Matt Ward's writing as well.
I always thought it was because they were associated with beginners, and the negative connotations that come with that. What armies do you think most kids start on? Space Marines. And what chapter is shown as the best and brightest? Ultramarines. So it's natural beginning players would gravitate towards them, and so we associate Ultramarines with the unpleasantness of playing with beginners, That guy, and poor sports.
Xendarc wrote:I don't quite understand all the hate for the Ultramarines.
I was painting a Homebrew chapter in a similar scheme to the Ultramarines and a few people at MLG would investigate and say something along the lines of "Smurfs, really?" to which I would then explain that they are not 'Smurfs' nor Ultramarines.
Do you have pics? I'm curious as to what "similar" means in this context.
My opinion is simply that the particular shade of blue used for the Ultramarines is very .. smurf'ish. Especially when you have the white helmets...
Regardless, "vanilla codex" marines are always going to be ripped on. For no other reason than they are just the basic build that everything else is measured against. Embrace this and you'll be fine.
People really do have low expectations and a little disrespect for not only UM, but their players. I see it all the time.
I just love playing UM. People always treat me like some clueless newb, make stupid brazen moves that they would never try on a guy who has played 40k since the RT days (which I have), and then about the end of turn 2 I start getting a little respect as about 600 points just went off table in their army and their eyeing my 500 points still in reserve.
On the other hand, when I pull out 40+ bikes done as a minor chapter, Guardians of the Covenant (done by wileythenord, thanks again) they look at me like I'm Sun-Tzu and take 5 minutes of planning before they try any moves.
I prefer the lowered expectations and the great turning of the tables (UM), to being analyzed and second guessed.
If people hate Ultramarines because of Mat Ward's poor fluff writing skills, then it would follow that they would hate Blood Angels, Grey Knights, and Necrons for that very same reason. And from reading the feelings expressed on this forum, the hostility against Ward with those factions is more that Ward has molested their poor baby, the hostility is against Ward rather than against the faction.
By contrast, with the Ultramarines, it appears that people simply did not like the Smurfs for whatever reason and are using Mat Ward as an excuse to justify their rage of all things in blue Power Armor.
By the way, I have an indescribable hatred of Grey Knights and Blood Angels, so I sympathize with this sort of feeling.
TedNugent wrote:If people hate Ultramarines because of Mat Ward's poor fluff writing skills, then it would follow that they would hate Blood Angels, Grey Knights, and Necrons for that very same reason. And from reading the feelings expressed on this forum, the hostility against Ward with those factions is more that Ward has molested their poor baby, the hostility is against Ward rather than against the faction.
By contrast, with the Ultramarines, it appears that people simply did not like the Smurfs for whatever reason and are using Mat Ward as an excuse to justify their rage of all things in blue Power Armor.
By the way, I have an indescribable hatred of Grey Knights and Blood Angels, so I sympathize with this sort of feeling.
TedNugent wrote:If people hate Ultramarines because of Mat Ward's poor fluff writing skills, then it would follow that they would hate Blood Angels, Grey Knights, and Necrons for that very same reason. And from reading the feelings expressed on this forum, the hostility against Ward with those factions is more that Ward has molested their poor baby, the hostility is against Ward rather than against the faction.
By contrast, with the Ultramarines, it appears that people simply did not like the Smurfs for whatever reason and are using Mat Ward as an excuse to justify their rage of all things in blue Power Armor.
By the way, I have an indescribable hatred of Grey Knights and Blood Angels, so I sympathize with this sort of feeling.
Thank you!
If I had to guess it's because people in general just hated ultramarines before, but with them being the primary focus of the codex (What with it originally being called Codex: Ultramarines, with later chapters getting fleshed out)
I don't understand the issue though, 4th edition's dex was far more ultramarine oriented, had even worse things demeaning the other chapters, and didn't have as many SC's outside of the ultramarines.
I think people hate on Ultramarines (or, these days, Mat Ward) because they want to appear savvy. A lot of folks mistake cynicism and sarcasm for wisdom or intelligence.
Yeah, they are hated because it is currently "popular" to do so; much like Ward hate really. Some had/have a reason for why, but most are simply jumping on that flaming bandwagon.
TedNugent wrote:If people hate Ultramarines because of Mat Ward's poor fluff writing skills, then it would follow that they would hate Blood Angels, Grey Knights, and Necrons for that very same reason. And from reading the feelings expressed on this forum, the hostility against Ward with those factions is more that Ward has molested their poor baby, the hostility is against Ward rather than against the faction.
By contrast, with the Ultramarines, it appears that people simply did not like the Smurfs for whatever reason and are using Mat Ward as an excuse to justify their rage of all things in blue Power Armor.
By the way, I have an indescribable hatred of Grey Knights and Blood Angels, so I sympathize with this sort of feeling.
Matt Ward's Ultramarine related writing was worse than anything else he did. Just try sitting down and reading it.
EDIT: And to all you bandwagon people, read through this thread. The latest bandwagon is accusing people who don't like Ultramarines of being bandwagoners. With any luck I'll start a new bandwagon of accusing people who accuse people of being bandwagoners that they're bandwagoners.
I dont like them because of this
They arent interesting. They are the default, what you should build around. Their stories are this
OMG, Calgar faught like ten squads of eldar at once, all while directing the fight with his voice. They always win, no matter the battle, they never take casualties i their books, I would rather hear about unconvential chapters, like Iron Hands, Salamanders or Blood Angels.
hotsauceman1 wrote:I dont like them because of this
They arent interesting. They are the default, what you should build around. Their stories are this
OMG, Calgar faught like ten squads of eldar at once, all while directing the fight with his voice. They always win, no matter the battle, they never take casualties i their books, I would rather hear about unconvential chapters, like Iron Hands, Salamanders or Blood Angels.
You are right. When I first started (2009) I was reading through the SM codex and all it was that I read was UM being so great and that they were flawless. Then I looked at a table of a guy playing DA and I was like OMG better!
The UM are just too bland and tasteless (like a Mcdonalds Cheeseburger) and the only thing they had going for them was the IC. Then looking at DA, BT and the other chapters I think that I would choose them. But that My opinion.
But everyone has different tastes don't they? It just depends who they are and what fancies them Just don't dump on someone 'cause they like the UM or other chapters, or otherwise I would hate all BA, GK and SW....
hotsauceman1 wrote:I dont like them because of this
They arent interesting. They are the default, what you should build around. Their stories are this
OMG, Calgar faught like ten squads of eldar at once, all while directing the fight with his voice. They always win, no matter the battle, they never take casualties i their books, I would rather hear about unconvential chapters, like Iron Hands, Salamanders or Blood Angels.
*Cough*Chapters Due*Cough*Dead Sky Black Sun *cough*
I don't hate ultramarines, but I do find much of their codex fluff to be mary sue, hence why I prefer Dark Angels
hotsauceman1 wrote:I dont like them because of this They arent interesting. They are the default, what you should build around. Their stories are this OMG, Calgar faught like ten squads of eldar at once, all while directing the fight with his voice. They always win, no matter the battle, they never take casualties i their books, I would rather hear about unconvential chapters, like Iron Hands, Salamanders or Blood Angels.
In the SM Codex it does say that during the Battle for Macragge the entire 1st company is wiped out.
Also I apologise, I did not expect this thread to become so heated. I was kind of hoping for a rational reason as to why Ultramarines are lame. The whole "Matt Ward (Apparently the GW equivalent of Satan) wrote some lame fluff so that makes the entire chapter lame." Is hardly rational in my eyes.
I understand if there are people who simply do not like UM or even SM as a whole but the level of... uhh lets call it 'dislike' I see from a lot of people is somewhat overwhelming.
LoneLictor wrote:The latest bandwagon is accusing people who don't like Ultramarines of being bandwagoners.
Are you suggesting that hating Ultramarines is only for a select few of discriminating tastes? LOL.
You're obviously purposefully misinterpreting my post.
I said that Ultramarine hater hating is the latest bandwagon. I did not say or even imply anything about the character and tastes of Ultramarine haters and Ultramarine hater haters.
LoneLictor wrote:I said that Ultramarine hater hating is the latest bandwagon.
Yes, so I read. But I'm afraid it's simply too preposterous. A rational opinion will never be a bandwagon on the internet. The Ultramarines do not win every battle; judging by the standards of the entire line of codicies, they win no more than any other faction except that one faction that always loses more often than any other, the Sisters of Battle. Their leaders are no less grandiose than those of other Chapters: for every Calgar, an Azrael and for every Tigurius, a Mephiston. Nor are their leaders infallible: what of poor Agemman passed over for arrogant Sicarius? No other Chapter has any hint of such internal tension among the highest ranks, except that it is long dead (as with the Dark Angels or Iron Hands). As far as them being "generic" -- who can say this is boring when every other Chapter is not generic? Being the only one that is generic, they are actually unique and therefore cannot be generic. Indeed, the Ultramarines are the most unique of SM Chapters insasmuch as they administer the only scrap of the Imperium that is not a waking nightmare. This is a feat none of their many successors have managed. All in all, the Ultramarines do one thing extremely well: following the Codex. That is the one thing that they are better at than all other Chapters. All these cries of "Mary Sue" cannot stand up against a simple rational look at the material and for that reason alone we will continue to hear the cries of "Mary Sue" echo throughout the internet.
LoneLictor wrote:I said that Ultramarine hater hating is the latest bandwagon.
Yes, so I read. But I'm afraid it's simply too preposterous. A rational opinion will never be a bandwagon on the internet. The Ultramarines do not win every battle; judging by the standards of the entire line of codicies, they win no more than any other faction except that one faction that always loses more often than any other, the Sisters of Battle. Their leaders are no less grandiose than those of other Chapters: for every Calgar, an Azrael and for every Tigurius, a Mephiston. Nor are their leaders infallible: what of poor Agemman passed over for arrogant Sicarius? No other Chapter has any hint of such internal tension among the highest ranks, except that it is long dead (as with the Dark Angels or Iron Hands). As far as them being "generic" -- who can say this is boring when every other Chapter is not generic? Being the only one that is generic, they are actually unique and therefore cannot be generic. Indeed, the Ultramarines are the most unique of SM Chapters insasmuch as they administer the only scrap of the Imperium that is not a waking nightmare. This is a feat none of their many successors have managed. All in all, the Ultramarines do one thing extremely well: following the Codex. That is the one thing that they are better at than all other Chapters. All these cries of "Mary Sue" cannot stand up against a simple rational look at the material and for that reason alone we will continue to hear the cries of "Mary Sue" echo throughout the internet.
Exalted, and thank you. My Republican Romans in Space need all the help they can get.
OMG, Calgar faught like ten squads of eldar at once, all while directing the fight with his voice. They always win, no matter the battle, they never take casualties i their books, I would rather hear about unconvential chapters, like Iron Hands, Salamanders or Blood Angels.
Did you know Meugan Ra fought off an entire tyranid splinter fleet on a planet, held them off and beat it back? No? Because apparently The ultramarines are the only ones who can become mary sue's apparently. And only mat ward can make them! Not like vect and his perfect self.
I mostly just hate the concept behind the codex astartes and claims that they are "the greatest space marine chapter" as though it is objectively true. They are the best as long as it means are a jack of all trades, the Raptors are better at stealth, the Minotaurs are better at close quarters assaults. Also, it isn't as if the space marines need to be generalists, each chapter is about 200-6,000 strong, and can generally pick and choose their battles, the Raptors don't need to assault a hive world with lots of close quarters action if they don't want to and the Minotaurs can decide to ignore the call for help from that Agri World with nothing but fields of grain. So yeah, the only things I hate about the UM are the codex astartes and Matt Ward's fanboyism. I like Matt Ward in general, I think he has the huge guts to actually make big changes to fluff even against the will of the players to make a race better (Newcrons can actually have special characters and Ctan can exist on the TT without being 100 times weaker than the fluff version), but some of his writing seems too much like shoddy fanfics.
"So Draigo is the awesome leader to the Grey Knights, and even carved his predecessor's name into the heart of a daemon primarch, but then some greater daemon sucked him into the warp. Now, the warp is scary, but Draigo ain't no whiny bitch, so he got to work. First he killed the daemonettes that tend to Slaanesh's innermost circle, then he burned down nurgle's garden..."
TBH I still think Ward is one of the better codex writers.
I don't know why people are laying the blame for Ultramarine dislike at Matt Ward's door.
I'm no Matt Ward supporter. I have wished many and varied misfortunes upon the man's head for what he did to my Necron fluff. However, Ultramarine hate has been around in this game for far longer than Matt Ward has been writing codexes. People were hating on Ultramarines back before Matt Ward was even playing the evil armies in battle reports for White Dwarf.
Some people may not have been around in the game for long enough to remember this, but there were Codex: Space Marines around long before Matt Ward showed up, and unlike the current one, within the meta-games of their respective editions, they were always one of the top-tier books. Sure, the current marine book has a few gimmicks with all bikes, or Vulkan drop pods, but in general Nilla SM plays 2nd fiddle to Space Wolves, Blood Angels, and Grey Knights as they generally do just about the same thing, or better, for cheaper.
The last marine book with the 'build a chapter' rules in the back, plus the insane efficiency of 4-5 6-man marine squads with a lascannon and plasmagun (Las/Plas), either plus or minus a Razorback with another Lascannon and a TL Plasmagun was a VERY solid core to build an army around that required little to no thought. The majority of these squads were painted blue simply by virtue of the fact that it was a decently easy paint job. Lots of clever army ideas had to compete against the notion that just taking 6 Las/Plas squads was cheaper and more effective for the points. It's only recently that the marine chapters have become very truly 'different' forces, something I think many people aren't aware of. Yes, there have always been codexes for Space Wolves, Blood Angels and the like, but in general they were far less distinctive. Blood Angels in 3rd edition were effectively just Vanilla Marines with army wide Furious Charge, a cooky death company that was generated by rolling to see how many of the men you'd already bought and paid for freaked out, and Rhinos that were faster with a chance of breaking down. They had a Sang Priest as an HQ that could do cool things for a single unit, and that was about it. Copy and paste that over the Vanilla marine book and you had Blood Angels. Space Wolves were admittedly a bit different, with Blood Claws, Grey Hunters, Long Fangs, etc, but in a way that very much was not any more or less efficient than what the vanilla marine book could accomplish. For a very long time, the choice between marine chapters was Ultramarines doing in the best, most point effective way at the apex, and you could move laterally and pay a bit more in points for a few cool special rules.
Add this to the already stated fact that pretty much since 1995, if GW has put out a poster or a cool image as part of some sort of marketing, there's a better than average change it's featuring an Ultramarine blasting something. They're the poster boy for 40k, and simply by default lots of people end up playing them because those are the images that got them interested in the game. They're boy scouts sure, they're 'mary sue's', they're boring, etc, whatever reason you wanna quote, those are nice window dressings, but, at least to people who have been playing the game for more than a decade, Ultramarine hate is rooted in their reputation as an army that was, until 2008, generally very effective on the table without having to be terribly imaginative about it, and thus loads of people played it in those days. From 2002 until about 2007 I'd go to tournament after tournament and see an easy 40 percent of the players with boys in blue, or the rules of the boys in blue painted up differently. It's fatigue and resentment of an 'easy' button as much as it is anything else.
Things like this are why I laugh at claims that 'Grey Knights is the most broken book GW has ever written!'. Every edition has it's easy button book. The marine book before the current one had far longer being a very powerful contender than Grey Knights had during 5th.
Manchu wrote: As far as them being "generic" -- who can say this is boring when every other Chapter is not generic? Being the only one that is generic, they are actually unique and therefore cannot be generic. Indeed, the Ultramarines are the most unique of SM Chapters insasmuch as they administer the only scrap of the Imperium that is not a waking nightmare. This is a feat none of their many successors have managed. All in all, the Ultramarines do one thing extremely well: following the Codex. That is the one thing that they are better at than all other Chapters. All these cries of "Mary Sue" cannot stand up against a simple rational look at the material and for that reason alone we will continue to hear the cries of "Mary Sue" echo throughout the internet.
No they are clearly not the only ones who are generic. They have a huge pile of Successor Chapters that did not make the leap over the shadow of their fathers. Praetors of Orpheus, Sons of Orar, Black Consuls, White Consuls, Genesis Chapter, even the Novamarines, while being known by many, have nothing to let them shine out so much. After all they are just Ultramarines Number XX.
I came into the 40k world because of Space Crusade, so for me Imperial Fists were the ultimate in Space Marines. It didn't take much effort to find the info on them fighting at the Siege of Terra alongside the Blood Angels, the Ultra Marines were missing from that info so I sort of thought "hrmm weird" and then there really was no more info to use.
Fast forward many years and Ultramarine's had become virtually top dogs, as others wrote, a seemingly invincible army. Imperial Fists seemed to have become a "Who?" and Blood Angels were just a crazy bunch of guys. And then I kept reading, and for me, Ultramarine's just seemed to be getting more and more, in my eyes at least, traitors. Ones that may not have sided with Horus, but seem to have the ability to go the same way, just they wouldn't 'fail' where Horus did.
Mainly because of things like;
They have the most powerful Psyker.
An Empire of their own, which info upon seemed to indicate they do not pay tithes to the Imperium, nor do they provide recruits like other Imperial worlds.
Their Primarch is the reason the Legions broke up into smaller ones, using the argument that no one should have the power to control that many troops again. Yet Ultramarine's and their successors hold the balance of power when it comes to soldiers. If they chose to leave the Imperium, then all the other Chapters would be unable to stop them from taking power.
Their great hero's seem to have no problem using what sounds like Demonic weapons. The Shard/s of Erebus, which sounds like they were made from Anathame used against Horus, being alien weapons with what sounded like a Daemonic background.
So for me, Ultramarine's are a secretive Traitorous Legion and I don't like them. But that, is just me and I haven't read every single piece of work there is upon them.
SkyD wrote:I came into the 40k world because of Space Crusade, so for me Imperial Fists were the ultimate in Space Marines. It didn't take much effort to find the info on them fighting at the Siege of Terra alongside the Blood Angels, the Ultra Marines were missing from that info so I sort of thought "hrmm weird" and then there really was no more info to use.
Fast forward many years and Ultramarine's had become virtually top dogs, as others wrote, a seemingly invincible army. Imperial Fists seemed to have become a "Who?" and Blood Angels were just a crazy bunch of guys. And then I kept reading, and for me, Ultramarine's just seemed to be getting more and more, in my eyes at least, traitors. Ones that may not have sided with Horus, but seem to have the ability to go the same way, just they wouldn't 'fail' where Horus did.
Mainly because of things like; They have the most powerful Psyker. An Empire of their own, which info upon seemed to indicate they do not pay tithes to the Imperium, nor do they provide recruits like other Imperial worlds. Their Primarch is the reason the Legions broke up into smaller ones, using the argument that no one should have the power to control that many troops again. Yet Ultramarine's and their successors hold the balance of power when it comes to soldiers. If they chose to leave the Imperium, then all the other Chapters would be unable to stop them from taking power. Their great hero's seem to have no problem using what sounds like Demonic weapons. The Shard/s of Erebus, which sounds like they were made from Anathame used against Horus, being alien weapons with what sounded like a Daemonic background.
So for me, Ultramarine's are a secretive Traitorous Legion and I don't like them. But that, is just me and I haven't read every single piece of work there is upon them.
Wow, just wow, if only my signature had enough space in it for this, quite frankly for a takeover it would make sense that they would do this......I am exalting this post. I know somewhere I read about possibility of Alpha Legionnaire infiltration into the Ultramarines, and these actions would definitely suit their desires.
I'm fine with the Ultramarines, but Mat Wards incompetent nature makes it difficult to read the chapters fluff without cringing in hatred, as it seems Mat's own stupidity has rubbed off on every character under the title of 'Ultramarine', also, I dislike the colour scheme.
Xendarc wrote:I don't quite understand all the hate for the Ultramarines.
I was painting a Homebrew chapter in a similar scheme to the Ultramarines and a few people at MLG would investigate and say something along the lines of "Smurfs, really?" to which I would then explain that they are not 'Smurfs' nor Ultramarines.
Another time a friend of mine visited and saw my marines. Assuming they were Ultramarines he then proceeded to ramble on about how they were the worst SM chapter without actually explaining WHY they are so terrible.
I personally have no problem with the Ultramarines nor do I favour them. I simply see them as a successful chapter who happens to be the flavour of choice on a lot of GW advertising.
My question is: Why do people hate the Ultramarines? What makes them so bad? People make fun of them calling them 'Smurfs' simply because they are blue but what is the reasoning for this seemingly irrational distaste?
I know someone who hates them because of their romanesque feel and iconography.
Personally I don't really care. I don't hate them but for me I find their fluff to be a bit bland.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
TedNugent wrote:
By the way, I have an indescribable hatred of Grey Knights and Blood Angels, so I sympathize with this sort of feeling.
Lol, just so happens to be the two armies that I play.
Being playing Blood Angels since 3rd ed and I started collecting Grey Knights a couple of months ago.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Buttons wrote:I mostly just hate the concept behind the codex astartes and claims that they are "the greatest space marine chapter" as though it is objectively true. They are the best as long as it means are a jack of all trades, the Raptors are better at stealth, the Minotaurs are better at close quarters assaults. Also, it isn't as if the space marines need to be generalists, each chapter is about 200-6,000 strong, and can generally pick and choose their battles, the Raptors don't need to assault a hive world with lots of close quarters action if they don't want to and the Minotaurs can decide to ignore the call for help from that Agri World with nothing but fields of grain. So yeah, the only things I hate about the UM are the codex astartes and Matt Ward's fanboyism. I like Matt Ward in general, I think he has the huge guts to actually make big changes to fluff even against the will of the players to make a race better (Newcrons can actually have special characters and Ctan can exist on the TT without being 100 times weaker than the fluff version), but some of his writing seems too much like shoddy fanfics.
"So Draigo is the awesome leader to the Grey Knights, and even carved his predecessor's name into the heart of a daemon primarch, but then some greater daemon sucked him into the warp. Now, the warp is scary, but Draigo ain't no whiny bitch, so he got to work. First he killed the daemonettes that tend to Slaanesh's innermost circle, then he burned down nurgle's garden..."
TBH I still think Ward is one of the better codex writers.
I thought he did a good job with the Blood Angels codex. I Love TheSanguinor and I love his fluff. The avenging angel who appears from nowhere to help the Blood Angels when in dire need. I also love the model, but I think the sculptors have to take credit for that one.
Manchu wrote: As far as them being "generic" -- who can say this is boring when every other Chapter is not generic? Being the only one that is generic, they are actually unique and therefore cannot be generic. Indeed, the Ultramarines are the most unique of SM Chapters insasmuch as they administer the only scrap of the Imperium that is not a waking nightmare. This is a feat none of their many successors have managed. All in all, the Ultramarines do one thing extremely well: following the Codex. That is the one thing that they are better at than all other Chapters. All these cries of "Mary Sue" cannot stand up against a simple rational look at the material and for that reason alone we will continue to hear the cries of "Mary Sue" echo throughout the internet.
No they are clearly not the only ones who are generic. They have a huge pile of Successor Chapters that did not make the leap over the shadow of their fathers. Praetors of Orpheus, Sons of Orar, Black Consuls, White Consuls, Genesis Chapter, even the Novamarines, while being known by many, have nothing to let them shine out so much. After all they are just Ultramarines Number XX.
Not their fathers, their brothers. All of those Chapters were Ultramarines before they were split off in the second founding.
I love Ultramarines, and love their successors. People write them off as bland a lot, which suprises me, but it could be that there's less fluff about who they are in the more recent Codexes and more fluff about what they do.
The codex is what put me against them, how their heroes are that much greater than any possessed by other chapters, basically just the arrogant overtone of the poorly written book
hotsauceman1 wrote:I dont like them because of this
They arent interesting. They are the default, what you should build around. Their stories are this
OMG, Calgar faught like ten squads of eldar at once, all while directing the fight with his voice. They always win, no matter the battle, they never take casualties i their books, I would rather hear about unconvential chapters, like Iron Hands, Salamanders or Blood Angels.
So do the Fury Wolves ( although the Ragnar books were fun ), the Emo Angels ( which were burdened with an idiot ball the size of a Ramiles starfort in their books ) and the Silver Marines ( Formerly known as Grey Knights ).
Gods, the Salamanders are just as pukeworthy these days, if one had the bad luck of reading Kyme's books about them.
Swiftblade wrote:Ultimately, they are seen as Mary Sue's
No Chapter is as Mary-Sue as the one that has single-handedly bested the Navy of an entire Imperial Segmentum, and defended its Chapter Fortress with a skeleton crew of Vets against millions upon millions of Guardsmen.
Oh, and they can afford flipping off the Inquisition, too, and they totally don't use psykers because they call it something else. Did I forget something? What was that bit with the giant flying space whale that they boarded and fought from within?
I agree any chapter with this type of fluff should be everybodies spiritual liege, and I beleive you forgot one of thier men took a pass at a demon in the form of a women :n-od: Besides were all mkaing tbhis fluff upright it couldn't possibly be this awesome and well thought out?
TedNugent wrote:If people hate Ultramarines because of Mat Ward's poor fluff writing skills, then it would follow that they would hate Blood Angels, Grey Knights, and Necrons for that very same reason. And from reading the feelings expressed on this forum, the hostility against Ward with those factions is more that Ward has molested their poor baby, the hostility is against Ward rather than against the faction.
By contrast, with the Ultramarines, it appears that people simply did not like the Smurfs for whatever reason and are using Mat Ward as an excuse to justify their rage of all things in blue Power Armor.
By the way, I have an indescribable hatred of Grey Knights and Blood Angels, so I sympathize with this sort of feeling.
Matt Ward's Ultramarine related writing was worse than anything else he did. Just try sitting down and reading it.
Absoltely none of it is worse than what he regurgitated onto the pages of the Grey Knight codex.
Circa M29: The Unification Wars.
The Emperor of Mankind unites Terra, and sets off to conquer the stars in a series of violent and bloody battles. The Ultramarines’ Primarch, Roboute Guilliman , is conveniently located on the other side of the galaxy when this occurs.
012.M31-014.M31: The Horus Heresy.
Under the leadership of Warmaster Horus of the Sons of Horus, the traitors turn on their fellow Legions, causing serious losses. The Salamanders, Iron Hands, and Raven Guard are nearly destroyed including the death of Primarch Ferrus Manus and the disappearance of Primarch Vulkan, the Dark Angels lose their homeworld and possibly their Primarch Lion El'Jonson while the Space Wolves are bogged down in a protracted battle with the Thousand Sons. Only the Blood Angels, Imperial Fists, and White Scars are able to return before the traitors lay Siege to Holy Terra, where they take serious losses (including the death of Primarch Sanguinius). The Emperor defeats Horus, causing the traitors to scatter, but is crippled and forced to ascend the Golden Throne. The Ultramarines are conveniently located on the other side of the galaxy when this occurs. After the Heresy, Rowboat Girlyman formed the High Lords of Terra and created the Codex Astartes. Note that the Ultramarines didn't participate in the defense of Terra, didn't sustain crippling damage to their Chapter's manpower, and note that, best of all, when they arrived they were too fething late. The war was already won, yet their primarch still was the first to create the new rules.
546.M32: 'The Beheading':
The High Lords of Terra are all slain on the orders of Drakan Vangorich, Grand Master of the Officio Assassinorum. The rogue Master of Assassins is tracked down and slain by a Space Marine strikeforce drawn from the Imperial Fists, Halo Brethren and Sable Swords. Of over a thousand men deployed, only a single Space Marine survives the campaign. The Ultramarines are conveniently located on the other side of the galaxy when this occurs.
843.M35: Distress call from Grendel's World investigated.
Planet discovered to have been attacked and all inhabitants slain by terror tactics of the Night Lords. The Ultramarines are conveniently located on the other side of the galaxy when this occurs.
Early M36: The Age of Apostasy and the Reign of Blood begin.
Warp storms increase dramatically and Chaos and Ork attacks multiply. The Imperium falls into turmoil. An empowered Ecclesiarchy becomes more tyrannical. High Lord Goge Vandire, Master of the Administratum, assumes the post of Ecclesiarch, becomes the most powerful member of the Senate of the High Lords of Terra, and manipulates a small sect, the Daughters of the Emperor (today the Sisters of Battle), into becoming his personal bodyguards, the Brides of the Emperor. Vandire rules largely unopposed and becomes more and more bloody and tyrannical. Zhoros, homeworld of the Fire Hawks' chapter, is thermal bombed. The Ultramarines are conveniently located on the other side of the galaxy when this occurs.
266.M36: Sebastian Thor is born on Dimmamar.
He eventually becomes a threat to Vandire, who sends the Frateris Templar fleet to destroy Dimmamar. The fleet is completely destroyed by a warp storm, still in existence today, named the Storm of the Emperor's Wrath in the Clax system. Vandire's armies are finally defeated by combined forces of the Tech Guard and several chapters of Space Marines, organized under the banner of the Confederation of Light, led by Thor. Vandire is executed by Alicia Dominica, the leader of his own bodyguards, who reclaim their old name Daughters of the Emperor in a conspiracy involving the Adeptus Custodes and the Emperor himself. The Ultramarines are conveniently located on the other side of the galaxy when this occurs.
723.M36: The 5th Black Crusade begins.
Doombreed, a deamon prince of Khorne, declares war on the Adeptus Astartes. The Warhawks and the Venerators are lost. The Ultramarines are conveniently located on the other side of the galaxy when this occurs.
995.M40-000.M41 The Macharian Crusades.
Macharius, Lord Commander of the Segmentum Solar, sets out to reconquer the Segmentum Pacificus for the Imperium. The Ultramarines are conveniently located on the other side of the galaxy when this occurs.
444.M41: First War for Armageddon.
Chaos incursion led by Angron and his World Eaters beaten back by the Space Wolves and Grey Knights but only at a terrible cost. Only about a dozen of the Grey Knights survive the battle with Angron. The local planetary militia and the other citizens are mind-wiped, sterilized and put into work camps, to slave away for the rest of their short, miserable lives much to the horror of Logan Grimnar. The Ultramarines are conveniently located on the other side of the galaxy when this occurs.
742.M41 Damocles Crusade is launched against the Tau Empire
, due to the Imperium's ever growing Xenophobia, a small, strategically insignificant piece of nothingness, inhabited by weak fish people with minimal Faster-Than-Light Technology. The Ultramarines are thoroughly defeated along with the rest of the Imperial forces. Those "aberrations" known as the Black Templars come in and beat the hell out of the Tau after the Ultramarines leave for the...
745.M41: First Tyrannic War.
Hive Fleet Behemoth attacks the Ultramarines' homeworld, Macragge. Most of the chapter is eaten by Nids and lose their entire 1st company, the Chapter's company of hardened veterans and Terminators. The second fight they get and they still blew it, lulz.
754-775.M41: Sabbat Worlds Crusade.
The Imperium deploys a massive force under Warmaster Slaydo to retake the Sabbat Worlds from the forces of Chaos. Several Space Marine chapters participate, including the White Scars and those "aberrations" called the Raven Guard and the Imperial Fists, eventually succeeding in driving Chaos from the sector. The Ultramarines are conveniently located on the other side of the galaxy when this occurs.
897.M41: Battle of Sanctuary 101.
The Necrons attack the Adepta Sororitas at the fortress-convent of Sanctuary 101, with every sister slaughtered to the last woman, marking first contact between the Imperium and the Necrons. The Ultramarines are conveniently located on the other side of the galaxy when this occurs.
901-912.M41 Badab War.
The Astral Claws, Lamenters, Executioners, and Mantis Warriors chapters rebel against the Imperium, and are defeated by loyalist chapters. The Ultramarines are conveniently located on the other side of the galaxy when this occurs.
941-942.M41: Second War for Armageddon.
The Ultramarines bump into Waaagh! Ghazghull while running away from the Tyranids. They are saved by the timely intervention of Commissar Yarrick and the Blood Angels. Marneus Calgar's first action is to acknowledge Dante as overall commander of the Space Marines on Armageddon.
988.M41: The battle of Rynn's World begins.
A large ork army, led by the Warboss Snagrod, attacks the Crimson Fists and their homeworld. During the battle, a stray missile strikes the Fortress-Monastery of the Crimson Fists, killing most of the Marines. The survivors are severely crippled and are forced to rebuild their chapter. The Ultramarines are conveniently located on the other side of the galaxy when this occurs.
757998.M41: The Third War for Armageddon begins.
Having learned from past mistakes, Imperial Commanders commit a ridiculous amount of forces to hold the world. It drags on for months in a bloody stalemate until Ghazghull grows bored and leaves his generals to finish the fight while he goes looking for other worlds to conquer. Commissar Yarrick joins a Black Templars Crusade and gives chase. The Ultramarines are conveniently located on the other side of the galaxy when this occurs.
5999.M41: Warmaster Abaddon launches the 13th Black Crusade.
The armies of Chaos Undivided lay siege primarily to Cadia but attack many of the surrounding worlds as well. Imperial Forces launch a massive counterattack, and eventually push back the tides of Chaos, but only just barely, and at great cost. The Space Wolves' 13th Company are amongst the forces seen fighting against the forces of Chaos. The Ultramarines were apparently man enough to get into the fighting... by offering some honor guard units that barely made up half a company. Yes, we're facepalming with you too.
Manchu wrote: As far as them being "generic" -- who can say this is boring when every other Chapter is not generic? Being the only one that is generic, they are actually unique and therefore cannot be generic. Indeed, the Ultramarines are the most unique of SM Chapters insasmuch as they administer the only scrap of the Imperium that is not a waking nightmare. This is a feat none of their many successors have managed. All in all, the Ultramarines do one thing extremely well: following the Codex. That is the one thing that they are better at than all other Chapters. All these cries of "Mary Sue" cannot stand up against a simple rational look at the material and for that reason alone we will continue to hear the cries of "Mary Sue" echo throughout the internet.
No they are clearly not the only ones who are generic. They have a huge pile of Successor Chapters that did not make the leap over the shadow of their fathers. Praetors of Orpheus, Sons of Orar, Black Consuls, White Consuls, Genesis Chapter, even the Novamarines, while being known by many, have nothing to let them shine out so much. After all they are just Ultramarines Number XX.
Not their fathers, their brothers. All of those Chapters were Ultramarines before they were split off in the second founding.
I love Ultramarines, and love their successors. People write them off as bland a lot, which suprises me, but it could be that there's less fluff about who they are in the more recent Codexes and more fluff about what they do.
Fathers was intended. I admit that predecessors would be more fitting, but I think we can assume, that every chapter does the 'daily stuff' that the ultramarines do (its just very well documented in their case), so we have to look at bigger events. Were the Ultramarines at any of the big rumbles in the galaxy except Behemoth and the Damocles-Crusade? (I do not want to say they were doing nothing) So we have things like the Apostasy, the 13th Black Crusade and the Wars for Armageddon, where the Ultramarines were nearly absent. But in such important events a chapter is able to make a name for themselves, a name the Ultramarines already had. That's the reason why I compare the successors to the deeds of their predecessors where they protected the IoM in the aftermath of the Heresy and where they conquered nearly a third of the galaxy in the great crusade on their own.
FYI not all of the chapters I listed were from the 2nd founding
Manchu wrote: As far as them being "generic" -- who can say this is boring when every other Chapter is not generic? Being the only one that is generic, they are actually unique and therefore cannot be generic. Indeed, the Ultramarines are the most unique of SM Chapters insasmuch as they administer the only scrap of the Imperium that is not a waking nightmare. This is a feat none of their many successors have managed. All in all, the Ultramarines do one thing extremely well: following the Codex. That is the one thing that they are better at than all other Chapters. All these cries of "Mary Sue" cannot stand up against a simple rational look at the material and for that reason alone we will continue to hear the cries of "Mary Sue" echo throughout the internet.
No they are clearly not the only ones who are generic. They have a huge pile of Successor Chapters that did not make the leap over the shadow of their fathers. Praetors of Orpheus, Sons of Orar, Black Consuls, White Consuls, Genesis Chapter, even the Novamarines, while being known by many, have nothing to let them shine out so much. After all they are just Ultramarines Number XX.
Not their fathers, their brothers. All of those Chapters were Ultramarines before they were split off in the second founding.
I love Ultramarines, and love their successors. People write them off as bland a lot, which suprises me, but it could be that there's less fluff about who they are in the more recent Codexes and more fluff about what they do.
Fathers was intended. I admit that predecessors would be more fitting, but I think we can assume, that every chapter does the 'daily stuff' that the ultramarines do (its just very well documented in their case), so we have to look at bigger events. Were the Ultramarines at any of the big rumbles in the galaxy except Behemoth and the Damocles-Crusade? (I do not want to say they were doing nothing) So we have things like the Apostasy, the 13th Black Crusade and the Wars for Armageddon, where the Ultramarines were nearly absent. But in such important events a chapter is able to make a name for themselves, a name the Ultramarines already had. That's the reason why I compare the successors to the deeds of their predecessors where they protected the IoM in the aftermath of the Heresy and where they conquered nearly a third of the galaxy in the great crusade on their own.
FYI not all of the chapters I listed were from the 2nd founding
Oh right, the Sons of Orar weren't. Surely those who were in the UM during the Heresy have already proven themselves?
Circa M29: The Unification Wars.
The Emperor of Mankind unites Terra, and sets off to conquer the stars in a series of violent and bloody battles. The Ultramarines’ Primarch, Roboute Guilliman , is conveniently located on the other side of the galaxy when this occurs.
and yet he wasn't the last one found
012.M31-014.M31: The Horus Heresy.
Under the leadership of Warmaster Horus of the Sons of Horus, the traitors turn on their fellow Legions, causing serious losses. The Salamanders, Iron Hands, and Raven Guard are nearly destroyed including the death of Primarch Ferrus Manus and the disappearance of Primarch Vulkan, the Dark Angels lose their homeworld and possibly their Primarch Lion El'Jonson while the Space Wolves are bogged down in a protracted battle with the Thousand Sons. Only the Blood Angels, Imperial Fists, and White Scars are able to return before the traitors lay Siege to Holy Terra, where they take serious losses (including the death of Primarch Sanguinius). The Emperor defeats Horus, causing the traitors to scatter, but is crippled and forced to ascend the Golden Throne. The Ultramarines are conveniently located on the other side of the galaxy when this occurs. After the Heresy, Rowboat Girlyman formed the High Lords of Terra and created the Codex Astartes. Note that the Ultramarines didn't participate in the defense of Terra, didn't sustain crippling damage to their Chapter's manpower, and note that, best of all, when they arrived they were too fething late. The war was already won, yet their primarch still was the first to create the new rules.
i think tour missing the bit were horus had to let the emperor on board his ship because the ultramarines and dark angels were now only a few days out from terra
546.M32: 'The Beheading':
The High Lords of Terra are all slain on the orders of Drakan Vangorich, Grand Master of the Officio Assassinorum. The rogue Master of Assassins is tracked down and slain by a Space Marine strikeforce drawn from the Imperial Fists, Halo Brethren and Sable Swords. Of over a thousand men deployed, only a single Space Marine survives the campaign. The Ultramarines are conveniently located on the other side of the galaxy when this occurs.
843.M35: Distress call from Grendel's World investigated.
Planet discovered to have been attacked and all inhabitants slain by terror tactics of the Night Lords. The Ultramarines are conveniently located on the other side of the galaxy when this occurs.
Early M36: The Age of Apostasy and the Reign of Blood begin.
Warp storms increase dramatically and Chaos and Ork attacks multiply. The Imperium falls into turmoil. An empowered Ecclesiarchy becomes more tyrannical. High Lord Goge Vandire, Master of the Administratum, assumes the post of Ecclesiarch, becomes the most powerful member of the Senate of the High Lords of Terra, and manipulates a small sect, the Daughters of the Emperor (today the Sisters of Battle), into becoming his personal bodyguards, the Brides of the Emperor. Vandire rules largely unopposed and becomes more and more bloody and tyrannical. Zhoros, homeworld of the Fire Hawks' chapter, is thermal bombed. The Ultramarines are conveniently located on the other side of the galaxy when this occurs.
266.M36: Sebastian Thor is born on Dimmamar.
He eventually becomes a threat to Vandire, who sends the Frateris Templar fleet to destroy Dimmamar. The fleet is completely destroyed by a warp storm, still in existence today, named the Storm of the Emperor's Wrath in the Clax system. Vandire's armies are finally defeated by combined forces of the Tech Guard and several chapters of Space Marines, organized under the banner of the Confederation of Light, led by Thor. Vandire is executed by Alicia Dominica, the leader of his own bodyguards, who reclaim their old name Daughters of the Emperor in a conspiracy involving the Adeptus Custodes and the Emperor himself. The Ultramarines are conveniently located on the other side of the galaxy when this occurs.
723.M36: The 5th Black Crusade begins.
Doombreed, a deamon prince of Khorne, declares war on the Adeptus Astartes. The Warhawks and the Venerators are lost. The Ultramarines are conveniently located on the other side of the galaxy when this occurs.
995.M40-000.M41 The Macharian Crusades.
Macharius, Lord Commander of the Segmentum Solar, sets out to reconquer the Segmentum Pacificus for the Imperium. The Ultramarines are conveniently located on the other side of the galaxy when this occurs.
444.M41: First War for Armageddon.
Chaos incursion led by Angron and his World Eaters beaten back by the Space Wolves and Grey Knights but only at a terrible cost. Only about a dozen of the Grey Knights survive the battle with Angron. The local planetary militia and the other citizens are mind-wiped, sterilized and put into work camps, to slave away for the rest of their short, miserable lives much to the horror of Logan Grimnar. The Ultramarines are conveniently located on the other side of the galaxy when this occurs.
and yet theres no hate for all the other chapters that weren't "conveniently locate on the other side of the galaxy" and didnt take part
742.M41 Damocles Crusade is launched against the Tau Empire
, due to the Imperium's ever growing Xenophobia, a small, strategically insignificant piece of nothingness, inhabited by weak fish people with minimal Faster-Than-Light Technology. The Ultramarines are thoroughly defeated along with the rest of the Imperial forces. Those "aberrations" known as the Black Templars come in and beat the hell out of the Tau after the Ultramarines leave for the...
wasn't it the imperial fist that were the flagship marines for this crusade?
745.M41: First Tyrannic War.
Hive Fleet Behemoth attacks the Ultramarines' homeworld, Macragge. Most of the chapter is eaten by Nids and lose their entire 1st company, the Chapter's company of hardened veterans and Terminators. The second fight they get and they still blew it, lulz.
most of the chapter were abourd warships trying to fight off an entire hive fleet and didnt get munched
754-775.M41: Sabbat Worlds Crusade.
The Imperium deploys a massive force under Warmaster Slaydo to retake the Sabbat Worlds from the forces of Chaos. Several Space Marine chapters participate, including the White Scars and those "aberrations" called the Raven Guard and the Imperial Fists, eventually succeeding in driving Chaos from the sector. The Ultramarines are conveniently located on the other side of the galaxy when this occurs.
897.M41: Battle of Sanctuary 101.
The Necrons attack the Adepta Sororitas at the fortress-convent of Sanctuary 101, with every sister slaughtered to the last woman, marking first contact between the Imperium and the Necrons. The Ultramarines are conveniently located on the other side of the galaxy when this occurs.
901-912.M41 Badab War.
The Astral Claws, Lamenters, Executioners, and Mantis Warriors chapters rebel against the Imperium, and are defeated by loyalist chapters. The Ultramarines are conveniently located on the other side of the galaxy when this occurs
as above ( you must realy dislike a lot of marine chapters ( 900 odd infact) if not getting involved is your reaon)
941-942.M41: Second War for Armageddon.
The Ultramarines bump into Waaagh! Ghazghull while running away from the Tyranids. They are saved by the timely intervention of Commissar Yarrick and the Blood Angels. Marneus Calgar's first action is to acknowledge Dante as overall commander of the Space Marines on Armageddon
not sure on this one so nothing to say
988.M41: The battle of Rynn's World begins.
A large ork army, led by the Warboss Snagrod, attacks the Crimson Fists and their homeworld. During the battle, a stray missile strikes the Fortress-Monastery of the Crimson Fists, killing most of the Marines. The survivors are severely crippled and are forced to rebuild their chapter. The Ultramarines are conveniently located on the other side of the galaxy when this occurs.
757998.M41: The Third War for Armageddon begins.
Having learned from past mistakes, Imperial Commanders commit a ridiculous amount of forces to hold the world. It drags on for months in a bloody stalemate until Ghazghull grows bored and leaves his generals to finish the fight while he goes looking for other worlds to conquer. Commissar Yarrick joins a Black Templars Crusade and gives chase. The Ultramarines are conveniently located on the other side of the galaxy when this occurs.
5999.M41: Warmaster Abaddon launches the 13th Black Crusade.
The armies of Chaos Undivided lay siege primarily to Cadia but attack many of the surrounding worlds as well. Imperial Forces launch a massive counterattack, and eventually push back the tides of Chaos, but only just barely, and at great cost. The Space Wolves' 13th Company are amongst the forces seen fighting against the forces of Chaos. The Ultramarines were apparently man enough to get into the fighting... by offering some honor guard units that barely made up half a company. Yes, we're facepalming with you too.
and again, oh and how big is a space wolf company thats been in the warp for millenia? say half a company?
so do we now need to get the ultramarine time line out and show how often space wolve blood angels and dark angels were on the other side of the galaxy and didn't get involved?
Automatically Appended Next Post: I think a lot of the hate comes from the whole poster boy and vinilla marine image, but people forget that originaly it was blood angels on the front of all the boxsets.
and as for being vinilla marines, theres some truth to this but the problems not realy with the "codex space marines" it's the fact that there arn't enough down sides to playing a specialist chapter, they get pritty much every thing an ultramarines army gets plus there own cool toys, were as in reality they should loose access to them
That was an interesting read, and manages to even sum up some of my feelings about them.
I think one of the main reasons why I have a mild dislike for the ultramarines is that they are often claimed to be the best, in a grimdark setting like 40K though, we are not looking for the best to be the heroes. It is similar to why I hate draigo, he is just too awesome which is really unappealing in a universe where millions grind their lives away to simply keep the imerium turning. They need a bit of personality and flaws injected into them. Instead everything about them is idyllic. They give off the feeling of just being too perfect which to me sucks because there are some really good parts to them too.
I personally like Magnus Clagar because he is a warrior who has had all his limbs and quite a lot else removed over the course of his history. He is an experienced and capable warrior who got to where he is through painful sacrifice. I even like Sergent Tellion, he has personality despite coming off a little as too awesome, he is seen as more human because he is seen as an old man teaching the new young people the ropes with experience that can only be gained with years and years of fighting.
However with Characters like Tigurius where it implies he is the greatest psyker in the imperium and completely ignores the multitudes of other librarian focused chapters or the blood angels librarian which have the power of divination in their gene seed from sanguinus. Yet despite other chapters, the ultramarines get the greatest psycher? Similarly the extreme resilience of Cassius also annoys me as it would be far more likely for the most resilient chaplain to be part of the imperial fists, black templars or even the space wolves.
There is nothing wrong with a chapter having an exceptional individual, but when you add all of them together then you are left with a chapter that just seems too good. They are the best at all aspects of being a space marine seemingly surpassing even the specialized space marine chapters, and that makes them shine just a little too brightly for the grimdark world of 40K
Manchu wrote: As far as them being "generic" -- who can say this is boring when every other Chapter is not generic? Being the only one that is generic, they are actually unique and therefore cannot be generic. Indeed, the Ultramarines are the most unique of SM Chapters insasmuch as they administer the only scrap of the Imperium that is not a waking nightmare. This is a feat none of their many successors have managed. All in all, the Ultramarines do one thing extremely well: following the Codex. That is the one thing that they are better at than all other Chapters. All these cries of "Mary Sue" cannot stand up against a simple rational look at the material and for that reason alone we will continue to hear the cries of "Mary Sue" echo throughout the internet.
No they are clearly not the only ones who are generic. They have a huge pile of Successor Chapters that did not make the leap over the shadow of their fathers. Praetors of Orpheus, Sons of Orar, Black Consuls, White Consuls, Genesis Chapter, even the Novamarines, while being known by many, have nothing to let them shine out so much. After all they are just Ultramarines Number XX.
Not their fathers, their brothers. All of those Chapters were Ultramarines before they were split off in the second founding.
I love Ultramarines, and love their successors. People write them off as bland a lot, which suprises me, but it could be that there's less fluff about who they are in the more recent Codexes and more fluff about what they do.
Fathers was intended. I admit that predecessors would be more fitting, but I think we can assume, that every chapter does the 'daily stuff' that the ultramarines do (its just very well documented in their case), so we have to look at bigger events. Were the Ultramarines at any of the big rumbles in the galaxy except Behemoth and the Damocles-Crusade? (I do not want to say they were doing nothing) So we have things like the Apostasy, the 13th Black Crusade and the Wars for Armageddon, where the Ultramarines were nearly absent. But in such important events a chapter is able to make a name for themselves, a name the Ultramarines already had. That's the reason why I compare the successors to the deeds of their predecessors where they protected the IoM in the aftermath of the Heresy and where they conquered nearly a third of the galaxy in the great crusade on their own.
FYI not all of the chapters I listed were from the 2nd founding
Oh right, the Sons of Orar weren't. Surely those who were in the UM during the Heresy have already proven themselves?
How can you be so sure with that? In the case of the Crimson Fists it's clearly stated that the chapter was formed out of the comparely new members of the Legion. This could have been the same in the case of the Ultramarines. Why should Roboute Guilliman send his best advisors, with who he worked so well together, away from him? But yes it is very unlikely that in the long row of 2nd Founding Chapters of the Ultras there were no veterans and somewhere they had to get their captains from But I'm pretty sure that some of the new Chapter Masters were kinda happy that they were now only responsible to themselves, even if it was just their beloved Primarch before. But with this independence comes the lose of the fame which comes along with the Name of the Ultramarines. It's there task to build such a reputation for their own chapter.
My personally opinion is that most of the Successors failed at this task. It's mainly because of the lag of information, but they probably wanted to much for the Legion of the Ultramarines to be both a remarkable 1st Founding Chapter and a remarkable Legion as a whole. So you get either a nicely fluffed-out Founding Chapter (which will always draw more attention than a single successor. The only exception would be the Black Templars) or an overall fluffed-out Legion with close-to-all Successor Chapters, but with less attention on said Founding Chapter. If you look at the Blood Angels Codex a better example for latter, but again it's the much smaller number of chapters covered. So the goal was lower and much more likely to be hit.
Shadox wrote:No they are clearly not the only ones who are generic. They have a huge pile of Successor Chapters that did not make the leap over the shadow of their fathers. Praetors of Orpheus, Sons of Orar, Black Consuls, White Consuls, Genesis Chapter, even the Novamarines, while being known by many, have nothing to let them shine out so much. After all they are just Ultramarines Number XX.
Whenever the Ultramarines successors get described in greater detail, they turn out to have interesting little kinks that make them different from the Ultramarines. For example, the White Consuls have two Chapter Masters and subscribe to the beliefs of the Ecclesiarchy. The only Chapters that are "just Ultramarines Number XX" are the ones no one has bothered to write about yet.
I don't see what's wrong with being generic. I always found it kind of adolescent how all the Primarchs had their own distinctive and unique personalities - just like how you're a beautiful and unique snowflake!
Who wants to read about 18 guys that are all the exact same? One thing I really liked about Know No Fear is how Guilliman came off as so distinct from his brothers. I was worried he might be indistinguishable from Rogal Dorn but they are definitely very different leaders. Just as Guilliman is different from all of his fellow primarchs, the UM are different from all other legions. And after they broke into Chapters per the Codex, many of the Chapters were former Ultramarines that shared a lot in common. Over the milennia, however, they have clearly diverged quite a bit.
Shadox wrote:How can you be so sure with that? In the case of the Crimson Fists it's clearly stated that the chapter was formed out of the comparely new members of the Legion. This could have been the same in the case of the Ultramarines. Why should Roboute Guilliman send his best advisors, with who he worked so well together, away from him? But yes it is very unlikely that in the long row of 2nd Founding Chapters of the Ultras there were no veterans and somewhere they had to get their captains from
But I'm pretty sure that some of the new Chapter Masters were kinda happy that they were now only responsible to themselves, even if it was just their beloved Primarch before. But with this independence comes the lose of the fame which comes along with the Name of the Ultramarines. It's there task to build such a reputation for their own chapter.
My personally opinion is that most of the Successors failed at this task. It's mainly because of the lag of information, but they probably wanted to much for the Legion of the Ultramarines to be both a remarkable 1st Founding Chapter and a remarkable Legion as a whole. So you get either a nicely fluffed-out Founding Chapter (which will always draw more attention than a single successor. The only exception would be the Black Templars) or an overall fluffed-out Legion with close-to-all Successor Chapters, but with less attention on said Founding Chapter. If you look at the Blood Angels Codex a better example for latter, but again it's the much smaller number of chapters covered. So the goal was lower and much more likely to be hit.
Well... I'm sure because it says that the chapters were made out of the Ultramarines extras in the 2nd ed. Ultramarines book, and it seems unlikely that only 1000 of a 10,000 odd strong chapter were any good. Not does it seem likely to me that Guilliman would grant leadership of a chapter of his marines to any but the best.
I think the problem with lack of glory for the successors is that they just aren't written about. There just isn't room. But in a way, that's nice, as it gives the player more freedom to create a chapter's history for themselves, on the tabletop.
I can't help but feel that a lot of people (and this isn't directed at anyone in particular) look at the other marine chapters and their big, overstated, obvious flaws - then look at the Ultramarines and think 'huh, they're too perfect.' Hardly. They have less cartoony flaws in their chapter, they don't have a gimmick, but that doesn't make what they are - pure Space Marine - boring.
Yes, I think that is a big part of this. We've got wolf marines, vamp marines, emo marines, etc, etc, and UM are perceived as just marine marines. Personally, I still find the concept of Space Marines pretty interesting in itself. I don't need them to be genetically enhanced super warrior-monks and wear dresses and (as someone hilariously put it ITT) write sad poetry in order to find them cool.
so do we now need to get the ultramarine time line out and show how often space wolve blood angels and dark angels were on the other side of the galaxy and didn't get involved?
Neither of which are presented as paragons of virtue we should all aspire to.
Neither of which are apparently the envy of all other chapters.
Neither of which have a primarch that had the arrogance to dictate to all the other primarchs how the Emperium should continue, after having done basically nothing to defend it.
In the end, the text I presented is a fun titbit from 4chan not to be taken overly serious.
Because neckbeards hate things that are popular or put on a pedestal as better than other things. Its why ultramarines and marines in general receive so much undeserved moaning.
sorry ive been an ultramarine player right from the start and some times i just get anoyed with the UM bashing, i wish they'd use another chapter for ther poster boys once in a while, hell how about even a different chapter for each of the boxes imperial fist terminators, UM tactical, chrimson fist devestaors
Anyways im going to go take my happy pills and stop snaping
But you seem to take it as a serious argument, looking at the rest of your post. For example, you say the UM did nothing to defend the Imperium -- and that is blatantly false.
goundry wrote:sorry ive been an ultramarine player right from the start and some times i just get anoyed with the UM bashing, i wish they'd use another chapter for ther poster boys once in a while, hell how about even a different chapter for each of the boxes imperial fist terminators, UM tactical, chrimson fist devestaors
Anyways im going to go take my happy pills and stop snaping
You are lucky. All the signs are that DA will take the Poster-Boy-Role for some time. They're already on the rulebook and the will be in the Starterbox
goundry wrote:sorry ive been an ultramarine player right from the start and some times i just get anoyed with the UM bashing, i wish they'd use another chapter for ther poster boys once in a while, hell how about even a different chapter for each of the boxes imperial fist terminators, UM tactical, chrimson fist devestaors
Anyways im going to go take my happy pills and stop snaping
You are lucky. All the signs are that DA will take the Poster-Boy-Role for some time. They're already on the rulebook and the will be in the Starterbox
Yes just like BA took it in 2nd edition, Crimson Fists in the 1st edition and Black Templar in the 3rd edition!
It's not like anyone should be annoyed with this, after all it could still be Codex: Ultramarines rather than Codex: All Adeptas Astartes Marines.
SW - Wolfy wolf wolf.
BT - Crazed maniacs that hate on pskers
BA - Vampires in space
GK - A marines marine if you think a marine is awesome just think how other marines feel about GK.
DA - Monks in space
Everyone has a favorite and therefore a reason to dislike another chapter. Personnally I like dark angels (other than their lame codex).
Ultramarines are infact quite powerful for their ability. (appro po - it is the ability to run away... Sorry couldn't help myself.) They are a nasty army to face. The part that bothers me is the Wardism - that every marine aspires to be an Ultramarine while all the fluff seems to make them appear to be overbearing (hello, you guys all fought the great insurrection but I know whats best for all of you.) incompetent ( they don't seem to win many battles and seem to get their buts pulled out of the flames by some other chapter) or very manipulative ( it is amazing how many of the major battles chronicled have the Ultras conveniently on the other side of the galaxy). My conclusion is that Ultramarines true specialization is in propaganda while the other chapters shed blood for the Imperium.
Yes, I think that is a big part of this. We've got wolf marines, vamp marines, emo marines, etc, etc, and UM are perceived as just marine marines. Personally, I still find the concept of Space Marines pretty interesting in itself. I don't need them to be genetically enhanced super warrior-monks and wear dresses and (as someone hilariously put it ITT) write sad poetry in order to find them cool.
Indeed. Childish rebel behaviour in particular has gotten so ridiculously OTT and in utter neglect of the IoM's oppressive nature that the Ultramarines now seem unique just because they are the only ones still adhering to some sort of norm and not try to break the system in some angle. I just don't get why "trying to fit in" is regarded as such a negative thing these days. Feels like people picked the wrong faction if all they wanted is to express their precious individuality and love of freedom.
But you seem to take it as a serious argument, looking at the rest of your post. For example, you say the UM did nothing to defend the Imperium -- and that is blatantly false.
No, I merely responded in kind.
To make things perfectly clear; nothing should be taken too seriously. Not fluff, not the internet and certainly not 4chan.
Yes, I think that is a big part of this. We've got wolf marines, vamp marines, emo marines, etc, etc, and UM are perceived as just marine marines. Personally, I still find the concept of Space Marines pretty interesting in itself. I don't need them to be genetically enhanced super warrior-monks and wear dresses and (as someone hilariously put it ITT) write sad poetry in order to find them cool.
Indeed. Childish rebel behaviour in particular has gotten so ridiculously OTT and in utter neglect of the IoM's oppressive nature that the Ultramarines now seem unique just because they are the only ones still adhering to some sort of norm and not try to break the system in some angle. I just don't get why "trying to fit in" is regarded as such a negative thing these days. Feels like people picked the wrong faction if all they wanted is to express their precious individuality and love of freedom.
Its like I said. That guy in high school who was good at sports, got the girls, and dressed well was HATED by the neckbeards. Ultramarines represent this, some kind of normal person being successful, and thats why I think they get people going out of their way to hate.
Lynata wrote:Feels like people picked the wrong faction if all they wanted is to express their precious individuality and love of freedom.
That's where the SW come in ... gah. A lot of the hatred thrown at the UM is actually deserved by the SW. I say that as a SW fan, as well. (Although, TBF, there's no faction in 40k that I dislike much less hate.)
I honestly belive its a combonation of a few things.
They are practically always winning even in rediculous ways (1 ultra marine vs X large number of orks and he wins alone), They can't loose (and i can't find any reference to them loosing outside of the board battlefield). heck even the video game Space marine could have had you play any space marine chapter but obviously the player played as the Ultramarines and is capable of singlehandedly annialating legions of Orks, Demons and even a CHaoslord ALONE.
They are te poster boys of GW and whenever you see a poster, addvertisement or whatever its got a bright blue space marine enblazoned on it. Over exposure to the boys in blue causes another part of the resentment.
amoung other reasons.
honestly i don't care, about the blue boys. i just find all space marines arrogant and glory hounds. but i refer to it all as a joke.
Steelmage99 wrote:Circa M29: The Unification Wars.
The Emperor of Mankind unites Terra, and sets off to conquer the stars in a series of violent and bloody battles. The Ultramarines’ Primarch, Roboute Guilliman , is conveniently located on the other side of the galaxy when this occurs.
012.M31-014.M31: The Horus Heresy.
Under the leadership of Warmaster Horus of the Sons of Horus, the traitors turn on their fellow Legions, causing serious losses. The Salamanders, Iron Hands, and Raven Guard are nearly destroyed including the death of Primarch Ferrus Manus and the disappearance of Primarch Vulkan, the Dark Angels lose their homeworld and possibly their Primarch Lion El'Jonson while the Space Wolves are bogged down in a protracted battle with the Thousand Sons. Only the Blood Angels, Imperial Fists, and White Scars are able to return before the traitors lay Siege to Holy Terra, where they take serious losses (including the death of Primarch Sanguinius). The Emperor defeats Horus, causing the traitors to scatter, but is crippled and forced to ascend the Golden Throne. The Ultramarines are conveniently located on the other side of the galaxy when this occurs. After the Heresy, Rowboat Girlyman formed the High Lords of Terra and created the Codex Astartes. Note that the Ultramarines didn't participate in the defense of Terra, didn't sustain crippling damage to their Chapter's manpower, and note that, best of all, when they arrived they were too fething late. The war was already won, yet their primarch still was the first to create the new rules.
546.M32: 'The Beheading':
The High Lords of Terra are all slain on the orders of Drakan Vangorich, Grand Master of the Officio Assassinorum. The rogue Master of Assassins is tracked down and slain by a Space Marine strikeforce drawn from the Imperial Fists, Halo Brethren and Sable Swords. Of over a thousand men deployed, only a single Space Marine survives the campaign. The Ultramarines are conveniently located on the other side of the galaxy when this occurs.
843.M35: Distress call from Grendel's World investigated.
Planet discovered to have been attacked and all inhabitants slain by terror tactics of the Night Lords. The Ultramarines are conveniently located on the other side of the galaxy when this occurs.
Early M36: The Age of Apostasy and the Reign of Blood begin.
Warp storms increase dramatically and Chaos and Ork attacks multiply. The Imperium falls into turmoil. An empowered Ecclesiarchy becomes more tyrannical. High Lord Goge Vandire, Master of the Administratum, assumes the post of Ecclesiarch, becomes the most powerful member of the Senate of the High Lords of Terra, and manipulates a small sect, the Daughters of the Emperor (today the Sisters of Battle), into becoming his personal bodyguards, the Brides of the Emperor. Vandire rules largely unopposed and becomes more and more bloody and tyrannical. Zhoros, homeworld of the Fire Hawks' chapter, is thermal bombed. The Ultramarines are conveniently located on the other side of the galaxy when this occurs.
266.M36: Sebastian Thor is born on Dimmamar.
He eventually becomes a threat to Vandire, who sends the Frateris Templar fleet to destroy Dimmamar. The fleet is completely destroyed by a warp storm, still in existence today, named the Storm of the Emperor's Wrath in the Clax system. Vandire's armies are finally defeated by combined forces of the Tech Guard and several chapters of Space Marines, organized under the banner of the Confederation of Light, led by Thor. Vandire is executed by Alicia Dominica, the leader of his own bodyguards, who reclaim their old name Daughters of the Emperor in a conspiracy involving the Adeptus Custodes and the Emperor himself. The Ultramarines are conveniently located on the other side of the galaxy when this occurs.
723.M36: The 5th Black Crusade begins.
Doombreed, a deamon prince of Khorne, declares war on the Adeptus Astartes. The Warhawks and the Venerators are lost. The Ultramarines are conveniently located on the other side of the galaxy when this occurs.
995.M40-000.M41 The Macharian Crusades.
Macharius, Lord Commander of the Segmentum Solar, sets out to reconquer the Segmentum Pacificus for the Imperium. The Ultramarines are conveniently located on the other side of the galaxy when this occurs.
444.M41: First War for Armageddon.
Chaos incursion led by Angron and his World Eaters beaten back by the Space Wolves and Grey Knights but only at a terrible cost. Only about a dozen of the Grey Knights survive the battle with Angron. The local planetary militia and the other citizens are mind-wiped, sterilized and put into work camps, to slave away for the rest of their short, miserable lives much to the horror of Logan Grimnar. The Ultramarines are conveniently located on the other side of the galaxy when this occurs.
742.M41 Damocles Crusade is launched against the Tau Empire
, due to the Imperium's ever growing Xenophobia, a small, strategically insignificant piece of nothingness, inhabited by weak fish people with minimal Faster-Than-Light Technology. The Ultramarines are thoroughly defeated along with the rest of the Imperial forces. Those "aberrations" known as the Black Templars come in and beat the hell out of the Tau after the Ultramarines leave for the...
745.M41: First Tyrannic War.
Hive Fleet Behemoth attacks the Ultramarines' homeworld, Macragge. Most of the chapter is eaten by Nids and lose their entire 1st company, the Chapter's company of hardened veterans and Terminators. The second fight they get and they still blew it, lulz.
754-775.M41: Sabbat Worlds Crusade.
The Imperium deploys a massive force under Warmaster Slaydo to retake the Sabbat Worlds from the forces of Chaos. Several Space Marine chapters participate, including the White Scars and those "aberrations" called the Raven Guard and the Imperial Fists, eventually succeeding in driving Chaos from the sector. The Ultramarines are conveniently located on the other side of the galaxy when this occurs.
897.M41: Battle of Sanctuary 101.
The Necrons attack the Adepta Sororitas at the fortress-convent of Sanctuary 101, with every sister slaughtered to the last woman, marking first contact between the Imperium and the Necrons. The Ultramarines are conveniently located on the other side of the galaxy when this occurs.
901-912.M41 Badab War.
The Astral Claws, Lamenters, Executioners, and Mantis Warriors chapters rebel against the Imperium, and are defeated by loyalist chapters. The Ultramarines are conveniently located on the other side of the galaxy when this occurs.
941-942.M41: Second War for Armageddon.
The Ultramarines bump into Waaagh! Ghazghull while running away from the Tyranids. They are saved by the timely intervention of Commissar Yarrick and the Blood Angels. Marneus Calgar's first action is to acknowledge Dante as overall commander of the Space Marines on Armageddon.
988.M41: The battle of Rynn's World begins.
A large ork army, led by the Warboss Snagrod, attacks the Crimson Fists and their homeworld. During the battle, a stray missile strikes the Fortress-Monastery of the Crimson Fists, killing most of the Marines. The survivors are severely crippled and are forced to rebuild their chapter. The Ultramarines are conveniently located on the other side of the galaxy when this occurs.
757998.M41: The Third War for Armageddon begins.
Having learned from past mistakes, Imperial Commanders commit a ridiculous amount of forces to hold the world. It drags on for months in a bloody stalemate until Ghazghull grows bored and leaves his generals to finish the fight while he goes looking for other worlds to conquer. Commissar Yarrick joins a Black Templars Crusade and gives chase. The Ultramarines are conveniently located on the other side of the galaxy when this occurs.
5999.M41: Warmaster Abaddon launches the 13th Black Crusade.
The armies of Chaos Undivided lay siege primarily to Cadia but attack many of the surrounding worlds as well. Imperial Forces launch a massive counterattack, and eventually push back the tides of Chaos, but only just barely, and at great cost. The Space Wolves' 13th Company are amongst the forces seen fighting against the forces of Chaos. The Ultramarines were apparently man enough to get into the fighting... by offering some honor guard units that barely made up half a company. Yes, we're facepalming with you too.
I like the way it needs to be stated where the Ultramarines are when these events that have nothing to do with them happen. Can we also add in at each line "The Blood Angels are conveniently located on the other side of the galaxy when this occurs"?
Its because Ultramarines toe the line of being complete Mary Sue's. They are toted as the end-all-be-all of Marines, they are perfect in battle, they are perfect out of battle, etc. People are just tired of hearing about them, when there are a thousand other chapters out there with little to no story or history.
As a solid BT player and fan, I feel that the BT actually personify the TRUE goals and aspirations of the Imperium, namely the extermination of all Alien, Mutant or Heretic in the galaxy. The Ultrasmurfs are too lenient, too willing to compromise and too hidebound with their codex to truly lead humanity to its destiny.
Razgryz wrote:Its because Ultramarines toe the line of being complete Mary Sue's.
Yet other Chapters have crossed that line and don't receive nearly as much dislike. Can't be the only reason.
In fact, I'm fairly sure that this supposed "perfection" is not an accurate portrayal of their description but overexaggeration to make them look worse. They sure as warp didn't seem "perfect" to me - just normal, which is apparently a bad thing for Marines.
Anything that's portrayed as simply better than it's equivalents purely for it's own sake, wreathed in simple bright colors and never loses while always being "the good guy", it's difficult to take such a character/factions seriously. They aren't interesting, and they come off as projections of the writers. Superman as an IP has the same issue and has been declining drastically in popularity for decades.
Lynata wrote:
Razgryz wrote:Its because Ultramarines toe the line of being complete Mary Sue's.
Yet other Chapters have crossed that line and don't receive nearly as much dislike. Can't be the only reason.
I take if you haven't kept up with people's attitudes on Space Wolves then for the last 3 years have you?
so do we now need to get the ultramarine time line out and show how often space wolve blood angels and dark angels were on the other side of the galaxy and didn't get involved?
I just want to point out Gav Thorpe has already put up doubts for the old dark angels loyalties.
Hrm, I dunno about that, the awful writing of the current codex (firing artillery by smell...) and bandwagon tidal-wave of "counts-as" wolves has made them a pretty touch subject. I at least see them coming up a lot more than the Ultra's hate these days, primarily due to the bandwagon tide the SW codex is still riding.
I said it once, and I will say it again. UltraMarines in 40K = John Cena in WWE. Like John Cena can win a match while knocked out, 2 on 1, 3 on 1, Hardcore, Last man Standing, ect, ect. It gets old.
Ultramarines get to not show up when Terra is attacked, bosses everyone else around like a bully, and when they dont back down has their ships attacked (Imperal Fists) then go back to their own little slice of space, and lets the other chapters have a ship or small world of their own.
Crimson Fists, Imperal Fists, Black Templars..these are chapters I like (even the ones that now follow the codex, they are just better Marines)
I like the fact back in Chapter Approved you could play White Scares as a whole bike army, and that was something different for JUST them. And Imperal Fists were a seig army, and the Night Lords were a suprise attack army. Now because they were different, I liked the idea of fighting to win...Ultramarines...are sheep...everyone has to wear their Gap pants and Amercombi shirts and march lock stepped...and then to make it worse....all new chapters have to be Ultramarine off shoots...
1) People hate that they are so overrated. It's the same reason people hate Justin Bieber.
2) People think that they are too perfect and noblebright. Personally, I think that all Space Marines are often portrayed as being too noblebright, and the Ultramarines are only slightly worse than the rest, usually.
DOOMBREAD wrote:People hate the Ultramarines for two reasons:
1) People hate that they are so overrated. It's the same reason people hate Justin Bieber.
2) People think that they are too perfect and noblebright. Personally, I think that all Space Marines are often portrayed as being too noblebright, and the Ultramarines are only slightly worse than the rest, usually.
1) I agree completely
2) True, thats why I like Space Wolves BL fluff, and Dark Angels, both are complete crazies in their own sense.
I just really don't like them. There is no reason for it. They were enjoyable in the Spacemarine game, but on the table top, they tend to look really, really bad. (Unless someone takes the time to make them look good, with weathering, and care, and such.)
I just really don't know what it is. They just seem really boring. Take the Ultramarines, name them something else, but change nothing, other than the name, color, and symbols, and they will seem better to me.
There is just something just unlikable about the Ultramarines. I was in my FLGS the other day, and I picked up a box of marines, and my fiance, who isn't into the game, looked at them, and told me "Those guys look awesome. You should get them, and paint them somthing other than that stupid blue color. What are those guys called anyway, because they are stupid. I like the red guys."
It's trendy and makes you seem edgy and cool like a veteran who also hates UM because he's so old-school and constantly talks about how GW used to be and blah blah blah hates GW and their posterboys.
And, it's the chapter that kids usually start off with from the starter sets.
Along with the fact that people playing anything other than UM like to hate on them because they wish they could be the standard for which all other SM's are balanced against.
BronzeJon wrote:It's trendy and makes you seem edgy and cool like a veteran who also hates UM because he's so old-school and constantly talks about how GW used to be and blah blah blah hates GW and their posterboys.
And, it's the chapter that kids usually start off with from the starter sets.
Along with the fact that people playing anything other than UM like to hate on them because they wish they could be the standard for which all other SM's are balanced against.
This, its really just special snowflake syndrome. The ultramarines not having any dark secrets, any horrible flaws, and still being successful means they should be shunned.
I don't know about anyone else, but I dislike that they don't have any unique strengths or weaknesses like the other armies; their only real outstanding point is that they're just better than all the other marines. And the character's fluff (not rules) are just stupid exaggerated- Tigurius read the Hive Mind? IMPOSSIBLE!
Hunchkrot wrote:I don't know about anyone else, but I dislike that they don't have any unique strengths or weaknesses like the other armies; their only real outstanding point is that they're just better than all the other marines. And the character's fluff (not rules) are just stupid exaggerated- Tigurius read the Hive Mind? IMPOSSIBLE!
I tend to laugh to myself whenever I read that someone thinks their fluff is rediculous. Of course it is! Every single faction has rediculous fluff that show how great they are. Don't believe me? Go read a codex.
This hate is almost completely unfounded. Don't you think it's so cool that I hate space marines (because lets be real. If you hate ultramarines, you hate space marines)? Don't I sound so experienced and intellectual? Seriously people. Get over yourselves.
Hunchkrot wrote:I don't know about anyone else, but I dislike that they don't have any unique strengths or weaknesses like the other armies; their only real outstanding point is that they're just better than all the other marines. And the character's fluff (not rules) are just stupid exaggerated- Tigurius read the Hive Mind? IMPOSSIBLE!
I tend to laugh to myself whenever I read that someone thinks their fluff is rediculous. Of course it is! Every single faction has rediculous fluff that show how great they are. Don't believe me? Go read a codex.
This hate is almost completely unfounded. Don't you think it's so cool that I hate space marines (because lets be real. If you hate ultramarines, you hate space marines)? Don't I sound so experienced and intellectual? Seriously people. Get over yourselves.
Wait I'm a dark angels player, does this mean I hate myself as well (as long as they don't completely rape my DA I will continue to be one after the new codex comes out). I think the big issue is that all codex's have a little bit of mary sueness, wherein in the Space Marine Codex any mention of the Ultramarines is shortly followed by either A:Some Mary Sue feat or B:How they are better than any other imperial force. But thats just what I take from the book.
Hunchkrot wrote:I don't know about anyone else, but I dislike that they don't have any unique strengths or weaknesses like the other armies; their only real outstanding point is that they're just better than all the other marines. And the character's fluff (not rules) are just stupid exaggerated- Tigurius read the Hive Mind? IMPOSSIBLE!
I tend to laugh to myself whenever I read that someone thinks their fluff is rediculous. Of course it is! Every single faction has rediculous fluff that show how great they are. Don't believe me? Go read a codex.
This hate is almost completely unfounded. Don't you think it's so cool that I hate space marines (because lets be real. If you hate ultramarines, you hate space marines)? Don't I sound so experienced and intellectual? Seriously people. Get over yourselves.
Oh really? show me a character with more ridiculous fluff than a simple librarian reading the mind of an organism that 99% of other psykers are scared witless of.
I collect an Imperial fists and I admire them because they are very skilled at defending and attacking fortifications, but their pride gets the best of them too often.
the Space Wolves are ferocious in battle, but are prone to recklessness and are often rebellious.
Dark Angels are shrouded in secrecy.
Blood Angels lead amazing aerial assaults and excel in melee combat, but their gene-seed is dreadfully flawed.
Ultramarines are just perfect. So freaking perfect. Everyone loves the perfect Ultramarines. That's why I dislike them.
I mostly like them because they're the army I started with way back in the Epic days and it just kind of stuck with me. I gotta admit that I loved the first Ultramarine Omnibus enough to try to recreate the entire fourth company but I'm not so much of a fanboy that I go with the second company like so many other players do...
I think all the hate is pretty strange though, but hey, people are always going to pick thier sides in a competitve game! I chose the IOM and I'd never play Xenos personally....except for my Nids...
Hunchkrot wrote:I don't know about anyone else, but I dislike that they don't have any unique strengths or weaknesses like the other armies; their only real outstanding point is that they're just better than all the other marines. And the character's fluff (not rules) are just stupid exaggerated- Tigurius read the Hive Mind? IMPOSSIBLE!
I tend to laugh to myself whenever I read that someone thinks their fluff is rediculous. Of course it is! Every single faction has rediculous fluff that show how great they are. Don't believe me? Go read a codex.
This hate is almost completely unfounded. Don't you think it's so cool that I hate space marines (because lets be real. If you hate ultramarines, you hate space marines)? Don't I sound so experienced and intellectual? Seriously people. Get over yourselves.
Oh really? show me a character with more ridiculous fluff than a simple librarian reading the mind of an organism that 99% of other psykers are scared witless of.
I collect an Imperial fists and I admire them because they are very skilled at defending and attacking fortifications, but their pride gets the best of them too often.
the Space Wolves are ferocious in battle, but are prone to recklessness and are often rebellious.
Dark Angels are shrouded in secrecy.
Blood Angels lead amazing aerial assaults and excel in melee combat, but their gene-seed is dreadfully flawed.
Ultramarines are just perfect. So freaking perfect. Everyone loves the perfect Ultramarines. That's why I dislike them.
Again, go read a codex. And the codex says that it is rumored Tigurius looked into the hive mind. It never said he actually did it. Have you heard of a character named draigo?
What I fail to see is where exactly it is shown that the ultramarines never fail. That they always win and they are the best at everything. You said it well with your description of the other notable chapters. They all excel at something. The ultramarines excel at nothing. They instead are a well rounded fighting force. Perhaps you dislike that fact. That they are not best a certain style. But then again, space marines are seen as a jack of all trades. So why can't a notable chapter be described as such? What is wrong with not being the best at something, but good at everything?
Clearly, the ultramarines are not perfect. They are not the most liked. This thread proves that well enough. And they are not supposed to be. Perhaps I appears that way on the surface, but you show your real knowledge of 40k and it's background by looking past the surface. There is a large amount of infighting between the companies of the ultras. They have their own mini empire. They are arrogant and self absorbed. They operate on a creed of honor above all else. I understand some may find that bland. And that's fine. I merely attempt to test people's hatred (or dislike rather) to see if there is any merit at all.
The reason I (and most of my friends) are not a fan of the Ultra marines is the fact they take from other chapters (like there version of the storm raven, the ability to run a death wing army as well or better then dark angels ext) from the other chapters and giving nothing in return (thunder fire cannon ext). It seems to be pushing players to play cookie cutter and not any other codex
Wait a minute... I can run a death wing army?! Perhaps you're thinking of Loganwing? Or maybe you meant Ravenwing, and yes, we can run that better than you.
Well I don't hate the chapter, but I say jokes about them just for typical gamer humour. I play Templars because I hate the Codex Astartes.
I mean, I think sometimes people say crap about because they don't have their chapter as the posterboard of GW. Like I could see a Blood Angels or Dark Angels being like what the heck?!? Smurfs again?! Why can't my chapter get some spotlight.
Something like that. People can hate on them because of jealousy.
BloodAngels Brother wrote:The reason I (and most of my friends) are not a fan of the Ultra marines is the fact they take from other chapters (like there version of the storm raven, the ability to run a death wing army as well or better then dark angels ext) from the other chapters and giving nothing in return (thunder fire cannon ext). It seems to be pushing players to play cookie cutter and not any other codex
Wait...
Wha?
Huh?
Ultramarine deathwing? stormravens? vanilla marines have these things?
BloodAngels Brother wrote:The reason I (and most of my friends) are not a fan of the Ultra marines is the fact they take from other chapters (like there version of the storm raven, the ability to run a death wing army as well or better then dark angels ext) from the other chapters and giving nothing in return (thunder fire cannon ext). It seems to be pushing players to play cookie cutter and not any other codex
Wait...
Wha?
Huh?
Ultramarine deathwing? stormravens? vanilla marines have these things?
I assume he means Ravenwing and Stormtalons? Either way it's total nonsense. Bike captains allowed you to take White Scars using the GENERIC Space Marine codex, and Stormtalons are as new as anything, so can't be stolen from anyone. Vanilla codex is not equal to Ultramarines.
Also, from a Blood Angels player... Sister of Battle would like their Immolators and living saints back.
The only reason that i can see for all the ultramarines hate is the fact that these people are really unimaginative. They hate because its an available band wagon and they jump on. It makes them feel superior because they can belittle something. Pay no attention. They are just douches.
Ultramarines do have a flaw. They're the paragon Chapter of the Codex Astartes, and they know it. Their hubris is their weakness. Case in point: the Imperial Navy was doing just fine hit-and-running Behemoth until Calgar decided that a frontal assault would be a good idea. Another example being the release of (a shard of these days?) the Nightbringer by Uriel Ventris.
AlmightyWalrus wrote:Ultramarines do have a flaw. They're the paragon Chapter of the Codex Astartes, and they know it. Their hubris is their weakness. Case in point: the Imperial Navy was doing just fine hit-and-running Behemoth until Calgar decided that a frontal assault would be a good idea. Another example being the release of (a shard of these days?) the Nightbringer by Uriel Ventris.
I'm not sure if this was directly in response to my comment of:
htj wrote:I can't help but feel that a lot of people (and this isn't directed at anyone in particular) look at the other marine chapters and their big, overstated, obvious flaws - then look at the Ultramarines and think 'huh, they're too perfect.' Hardly. They have less cartoony flaws in their chapter, they don't have a gimmick, but that doesn't make what they are - pure Space Marine - boring.
But if it was, then note that I wasn't saying they were flawless, merely that their flaws were less obvious that some of the other popular 1st founding chapters. Certainly, it's a fair interpretation of the fluff to say that the Ultramarines hubris is their undoing. I kinda think that this is true of all of the Space Marines, part of what I like about them, but as you say, their status could make it manifest more than in others.
But if it was, then note that I wasn't saying they were flawless, merely that their flaws were less obvious that some of the other popular 1st founding chapters. Certainly, it's a fair interpretation of the fluff to say that the Ultramarines hubris is their undoing. I kinda think that this is true of all of the Space Marines, part of what I like about them, but as you say, their status could make it manifest more than in others.
Pretty much, one of the biggest problems with Ultramarines really is their hubris above all else, being the "Poster Boys" really means they have to stand tall, trying to make sure all look up to them and that they continue to be a good example. Basically they are up high on a pedestal, both to themselves and some others. Whether they deserve to be there or not they are stuck there and feel the need to make sure that they are superior to those who don't fully follow the codex, to show that their Primarch was right above all else in matters of war.
But if it was, then note that I wasn't saying they were flawless, merely that their flaws were less obvious that some of the other popular 1st founding chapters. Certainly, it's a fair interpretation of the fluff to say that the Ultramarines hubris is their undoing. I kinda think that this is true of all of the Space Marines, part of what I like about them, but as you say, their status could make it manifest more than in others.
Oh really? show me a character with more ridiculous fluff than a simple librarian reading the mind of an organism that 99% of other psykers are scared witless of.
Meugan Ra: Beat back said organism on a planet all by himself against a part of the splinter fleet
Vect: Perfect planning, perfectly took over Camorragh.
Really though, the fluff is filled with half truths and LIES! Seriously, alot of this could be chalked up to "Imperial Scholars have written beyond this point, this is recorded as of X X X to be the account of X's life"
Fluff in 40k, is half lies, and half truths. A space marine can beat back an entire horde of orks by himself? May have happened, or he may have been with an uncredited squad backing him up, with him as the only survivor.
This, its really just special snowflake syndrome. The ultramarines not having any dark secrets, any horrible flaws, and still being successful means they should be shunned.
They are generally the most general generalists in the galaxy. If you want special snowflake syndrome you look at the space wolves, who really should have been under exterminatus for all the bs they pull in all aspects of their life, spit in the face of the inqusition time and time again, basically worship the wolves, not to mention the fact that their geneseed is mutating to the point where there's "Wulfen" Half mad space marine Beastmen/Chaos that should horrify any chapter.
I only hate the ultramarines for one reason and that is more of a personal standpoint. Around here most of the people only paint armies by the default colors and its pretty boring to go to a tournament and see 12 pure blue sm armies with the odd 1 or two different colors for the others like BA, SW, and GK.
Swiftblade wrote:Matt Ward wrote some terrible fluff for them. Ultimately, they are seen as Mary Sue's with no personality to them except for being "The Perfect Boys of the Imperium". So while there are other great chapters with some personality, the Ultramarines get shown off as "Flawless".
However, Garahm McNeil wrote some pretty good Ultramarine books that depict the Ultramarines as much more human and likable characters. If you ever want to defend the Ultramarines, read those books.
This. Great books. It goes against the way the UM's are usually seen (Codex lovin' pageboys), and shows that the ones who know what they are doing actually understand that it is only a tactical guideline.
That, and the ultramarines game has captain Titus, the honorary angry marine.
The nameless wrote:Your little plastic army men, do what you want with said little army men. Atleast your painting them.... You could anger them further by glueing little Mat Ward faces on the front of their helms and saying "spiritual liege" alot. Sometimes annoying the band wagoners is its own reward....
What, like how I'm converting a GK terminator into a chaos sorcerer?
Yes it was the raven wing my bad im sorry for the miss quote.
no not the storm tallon this bugger http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/New_Stuff/STORM_EAGLE.html ,yes they have them and there good, very good.
Please dont take this the wrong way but Im sorry that the blood angels codex took a sub par modle and made them MAQ worthy.
Hunchkrot wrote: the Space Wolves are ferocious in battle, but are prone to recklessness and are often rebellious.
Dark Angels are shrouded in secrecy.
Blood Angels lead amazing aerial assaults and excel in melee combat, but their gene-seed is dreadfully flawed.
You say that as if these were drawbacks. They are not. Obviously, these aspects only make these Chapters even more cool in the eyes of their players.
Take the Space Wolves, for example. Recklessness only becomes a drawback if they'd actually suffer in battle from this, yet in the fluff this only makes them win even more. Rebellion likewise only becomes a drawback if they'd have to suffer the consequences, yet their ongoing shenanigans are simply ignored, so much that they've pretty much become the jesters of the IoM who can do as they will.
BloodAngels Brother wrote:Yes it was the raven wing my bad im sorry for the miss quote.
no not the storm tallon this bugger http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/New_Stuff/STORM_EAGLE.html ,yes they have them and there good, very good.
Please dont take this the wrong way but Im sorry that the blood angels codex took a sub par modle and made them MAQ worthy.
Oh, you mean the mini Thunderhawk? Righto.
Sub par? Seriously? Definitely not how I would have called it.
Why I hate and Like the Ultramarines - Codex Astartes - Pros- Very good for tactical commanders that like to follow by the book. Good source for tactics, should be used to encourage new tacticians to make better tactics. Robute Gulliman was not the greatest tactician. Horus was.
Cons But problems rise because the codex has many flaws like improving your strategies and also company structure. Alpha Legion for example could just read the codex make a good estimate of what the enemy was going to send and then beat the living snot out of the force that arrives. Yes I know what you are thinking. "But Ash! There is no way someone could predict an enemy engagement from a book that they follow, that also lists tactics and everything that needs to be done!" Well Sadly formations are pretty easy to decern if you bloody well have the thing they are coping, Oh look they are sending all their troops into space? What is it? STEEL REHIN? Yes. Company organizations like the current are completely inflexible to deal with threats on a wider scale. Reconquering worlds with 1 battle company is dumb because their reserve company has only one type of unit to support it. Over long term the reserve company serves no other purpose than to sit there and provide support thats it. What if this reserve force is depleted? Well guess what you have to wait for the 100 scouts to distrubite themselves to the rest of the chapter that is still suffering from its losses!
Blue- I hate the color it is a horrible contrasting color that is overly used in just about every single 'good guy' faction.
Cato Scarius- Completely incompetent. Instead of sending in his scout squads to deal with the issues on black reach with you know stealth. INSTEAD! He charges in with a thunder hawk, he then gets wounded telion takes over and gets stuff done. Cato Scarius then charges into combat again against a Necron Lord, I don't really know why he couldn't of just shot the bloody thing, or you know thought about it, instead of revering the codex and use every inch of it like it is the way of life. Also because lets face his armor is from like what 20 dead space marines? That spells "I'm better than all of you, see all these awards, yeah i got them for being suicidally brave! You Know do you have any shiny badges! NO YOu DON'T!"
Calgar- You sir lead a frontal assualt against... a massive devouring horde and thought it was a good idea? Who taught you tactics Chapter Master Custard Cannae? Anyone that dives straight towards the enemy sounds like you read the tactics of the Codex Astartes horribly wrong. Unless it calls for something like this. "When faced with a Massive Alien swarm immediately go head first with no support." Calgar you silly young lad, you cannot charge into a ork Wagh and hold a gate for 30 days. I'm pretty sure there was another company helping you, but you ignored them because they were under the Command of Captain Uriel Ventris.
Good things: Apart from being tactically incompetent and strategically slowed, Calgar is a good leader, he inspires his soldiers, and acts relatively nice to his allies. Though more often than not, everything has to be. By the book. Which is actually a good thing. He is a talented warrior, and has two powerfists and ripped apart a daemon with his powered hands. Which is actually pretty cool, and of course he as the only one to remember who the grey knights where. Though i suspect that is because of Ward Armor.
History: Good: Very indepth and has alot of their victories including their 'losses'. They fought very hard against their enemies and they always somehow turn a loss to a victory. Bad: So indepth that actually feels kinda stupid how they spend the entire book talking about them yet the Imperial Fists only have 3 paragraphs worth of info that talk about them. They kinda are shown to be stupid and blind to betrayal and blind about the future. I am looking at you Titus and Leonidas, also you 1st company, calgar and well basically every single one of you. Another urk is the fact that in one short story, how the 3rd company captain sarcraficed himself on a bridge. Well hhahaha! This proves them to be awesome! No it doesn't. Because i keeped thinking to myself, why did you keep all of your denotaters with one person? That is like the redshirt in Star Trek, you know he is going to die. So why bother? Why didn't you keep a back up? AND THEN BLOW UP A BRIDGE?
Also your thunderhawks arrived? Why didn't you bloody well use them then? "Brothers retreat to the thunderhawks!" "But captain can't we just do a bombing run on the enemy position!" "NO that is too logical I must stay behind because I forgot that I gave all the bomb denotaters to jimmy!" "Sir, why didn't you keep one to yourself?" "Quiet and leave this planet!" "........" Also the first company and the fifth and sixth companies getting owned by an entire tyranid hive fleet. La de dum. Who though this was a good idea? And why not act smart and use hit and run tactics?Also what irks me is that they spent so much time on the 'main characters' instead of the first company. All we know is that the 1st company died and 5 terminators were stacked against each other like tipped over cows.
Homeworld: Good- Is awesome compared to the rest of the imperium Bad: Really can't think of any considering the fact this is probably the coolest part of the chapter.
Preheresy: There isn't that much to see here. So move along. Heresy: My biggest irk with this chapter is that they were oh so conveniently the galactic southeast. Including all 210,000 of them. The next big one is that they were caught off guard. WEll actually for the first time. By the wordbearers.
"Oh hey scary brothers with human corpses strewn over their ships. Hows it going?" "DIE!!!!!" "Wait I thought we were friends?" "Your a ##$!#$!!#$ !$#!@$!@ @#$!@&^&$@#% !" " But Logar!" "I am a servant of the chaos gods."
This is the only time I have ever actually cheered for Chaos. Robute was a jerk to his fellow primarchs. Some of the reasons why they betrayed the Imperium in the first place was because Robute decided to be a jerk to everyone
Robute Gulliman was a Douchecanoe to the following primarchs..... Alpharius Horus Sanginius Corax Rogal Dorn Jaghati Khan Leman Russ Lion El'Johnson Magnus Night Haunter Petraubo Ferrus Manus Angron -evidence Spiritual Liege and also the fact he points to how many successful campagins he has had. Also Horus even stated he didn't have too much ambition. The Ultramarines were actually full of themselves before and after the heresy. Which reminds me of actual Rome. Which they Actually do achieve and I give the writers credit for writing it that way.
Anyway that is my rant. I won't respond because lets face it my opinion is my opinion.(and my observations)
This, its really just special snowflake syndrome. The ultramarines not having any dark secrets, any horrible flaws, and still being successful means they should be shunned.
They are generally the most general generalists in the galaxy. If you want special snowflake syndrome you look at the space wolves, who really should have been under exterminatus for all the bs they pull in all aspects of their life, spit in the face of the inqusition time and time again, basically worship the wolves, not to mention the fact that their geneseed is mutating to the point where there's "Wulfen" Half mad space marine Beastmen/Chaos that should horrify any chapter.
Sorry, maybe I should have been more clear. The people hating ultramarines suffer from special snowflake syndrome. Everyone has to have terrible flaws that they must overcome, and obvious ones at that. So wolves are cool, they turn into werewolves, fight the man, and do whatever the feth they want while being smelly. Ultramarines dont mutate, are the man, and follow the rules while bathing. The 2nd does not appeal nearly as much to someone with the mind of a 14 year old nerd. You can spot these types by the amount of /tg/ phrases they use. 'mary sue' and 'noblebright' come to mind.
This, its really just special snowflake syndrome. The ultramarines not having any dark secrets, any horrible flaws, and still being successful means they should be shunned.
They are generally the most general generalists in the galaxy. If you want special snowflake syndrome you look at the space wolves, who really should have been under exterminatus for all the bs they pull in all aspects of their life, spit in the face of the inqusition time and time again, basically worship the wolves, not to mention the fact that their geneseed is mutating to the point where there's "Wulfen" Half mad space marine Beastmen/Chaos that should horrify any chapter.
Sorry, maybe I should have been more clear. The people hating ultramarines suffer from special snowflake syndrome. Everyone has to have terrible flaws that they must overcome, and obvious ones at that. So wolves are cool, they turn into werewolves, fight the man, and do whatever the feth they want while being smelly. Ultramarines dont mutate, are the man, and follow the rules while bathing. The 2nd does not appeal nearly as much to someone with the mind of a 14 year old nerd. You can spot these types by the amount of /tg/ phrases they use. 'mary sue' and 'noblebright' come to mind.
Notice how I don't. I complain about their 'tactical genius' abilities.
They aren't mary sue. My Storm Crusaders are the definition of Mary Sue.(but thats on purpose)
Notice also how I smack my head against he table as the ultramarines are quite the big jerks of the Astartes.
This, its really just special snowflake syndrome. The ultramarines not having any dark secrets, any horrible flaws, and still being successful means they should be shunned.
They are generally the most general generalists in the galaxy. If you want special snowflake syndrome you look at the space wolves, who really should have been under exterminatus for all the bs they pull in all aspects of their life, spit in the face of the inqusition time and time again, basically worship the wolves, not to mention the fact that their geneseed is mutating to the point where there's "Wulfen" Half mad space marine Beastmen/Chaos that should horrify any chapter.
Sorry, maybe I should have been more clear. The people hating ultramarines suffer from special snowflake syndrome. Everyone has to have terrible flaws that they must overcome, and obvious ones at that. So wolves are cool, they turn into werewolves, fight the man, and do whatever the feth they want while being smelly. Ultramarines dont mutate, are the man, and follow the rules while bathing. The 2nd does not appeal nearly as much to someone with the mind of a 14 year old nerd. You can spot these types by the amount of /tg/ phrases they use. 'mary sue' and 'noblebright' come to mind.
Oh, that explains it than, sorry kept thinking you were saying the Ultramarines were the special snowflakes, which is weird in itself.
I mean I'm not exactly a fan of the Ultramarines, I play the Dark angels if I play a space marine dex, but the amount of hatred just get's annoying after seeing it start in /TG/ and flow outward like a wave of neckbeard hatred.
Same here. Im not really a fan of them, but I dont hate. The neckbeard hatred really is a huge reason why less people play these games. Nobody wants to get whined at by some grognard because he didnt paint his mandollies like the 'cool kids' do.
This, its really just special snowflake syndrome. The ultramarines not having any dark secrets, any horrible flaws, and still being successful means they should be shunned.
They are generally the most general generalists in the galaxy. If you want special snowflake syndrome you look at the space wolves, who really should have been under exterminatus for all the bs they pull in all aspects of their life, spit in the face of the inqusition time and time again, basically worship the wolves, not to mention the fact that their geneseed is mutating to the point where there's "Wulfen" Half mad space marine Beastmen/Chaos that should horrify any chapter.
Sorry, maybe I should have been more clear. The people hating ultramarines suffer from special snowflake syndrome. Everyone has to have terrible flaws that they must overcome, and obvious ones at that. So wolves are cool, they turn into werewolves, fight the man, and do whatever the feth they want while being smelly. Ultramarines dont mutate, are the man, and follow the rules while bathing. The 2nd does not appeal nearly as much to someone with the mind of a 14 year old nerd. You can spot these types by the amount of /tg/ phrases they use. 'mary sue' and 'noblebright' come to mind.
Because everyone just loves stories of history and ficition about the Avarage Joe, who is healthy, gets everything his way, and goes on from High School to College then becomes CEO, without having to pay back his student loans and have any hardship.
I mean look at comic books, no one reads Batman or Spide-Man because they lost their family, they read them to see how well they are doing at work, and with their social lives.
UltraMarines are the rich kids in school, who never had to work for anything or THINK for themsevles. Sheep that think everyone else should follow in their footsteps, if not that person is weird and must be made fun of.
This, its really just special snowflake syndrome. The ultramarines not having any dark secrets, any horrible flaws, and still being successful means they should be shunned.
They are generally the most general generalists in the galaxy. If you want special snowflake syndrome you look at the space wolves, who really should have been under exterminatus for all the bs they pull in all aspects of their life, spit in the face of the inqusition time and time again, basically worship the wolves, not to mention the fact that their geneseed is mutating to the point where there's "Wulfen" Half mad space marine Beastmen/Chaos that should horrify any chapter.
Sorry, maybe I should have been more clear. The people hating ultramarines suffer from special snowflake syndrome. Everyone has to have terrible flaws that they must overcome, and obvious ones at that. So wolves are cool, they turn into werewolves, fight the man, and do whatever the feth they want while being smelly. Ultramarines dont mutate, are the man, and follow the rules while bathing. The 2nd does not appeal nearly as much to someone with the mind of a 14 year old nerd. You can spot these types by the amount of /tg/ phrases they use. 'mary sue' and 'noblebright' come to mind.
Because everyone just loves stories of history and ficition about the Avarage Joe, who is healthy, gets everything his way, and goes on from High School to College then becomes CEO, without having to pay back his student loans and have any hardship.
I mean look at comic books, no one reads Batman or Spide-Man because they lost their family, they read them to see how well they are doing at work, and with their social lives.
UltraMarines are the rich kids in school, who never had to work for anything or THINK for themsevles. Sheep that think everyone else should follow in their footsteps, if not that person is weird and must be made fun of.
See, this is called projecting. I dont think the ultramarines are going out of their way to make fun of people who dont follow in their footsteps. I am pretty sure they don't actually exist. So what if they were the 'rich kids in school'. There are a lot of people who came from wealth who work their asses off. Why is the ultramarines recruits having it easier growing up than the space wolf or blood angels ones a bad thing? I can respect people who come from the bottom and work their way up. I can also respect people who came from greatness and do their best to maintain that. Thats what is kind of cool about the space marines. The diverse backgrounds and styles, all fighting towards one common goal. There is absolutely nothing wrong with coming from money and success, its all about what you do with that money.
This, its really just special snowflake syndrome. The ultramarines not having any dark secrets, any horrible flaws, and still being successful means they should be shunned.
They are generally the most general generalists in the galaxy. If you want special snowflake syndrome you look at the space wolves, who really should have been under exterminatus for all the bs they pull in all aspects of their life, spit in the face of the inqusition time and time again, basically worship the wolves, not to mention the fact that their geneseed is mutating to the point where there's "Wulfen" Half mad space marine Beastmen/Chaos that should horrify any chapter.
Sorry, maybe I should have been more clear. The people hating ultramarines suffer from special snowflake syndrome. Everyone has to have terrible flaws that they must overcome, and obvious ones at that. So wolves are cool, they turn into werewolves, fight the man, and do whatever the feth they want while being smelly. Ultramarines dont mutate, are the man, and follow the rules while bathing. The 2nd does not appeal nearly as much to someone with the mind of a 14 year old nerd. You can spot these types by the amount of /tg/ phrases they use. 'mary sue' and 'noblebright' come to mind.
Because everyone just loves stories of history and ficition about the Avarage Joe, who is healthy, gets everything his way, and goes on from High School to College then becomes CEO, without having to pay back his student loans and have any hardship.
I mean look at comic books, no one reads Batman or Spide-Man because they lost their family, they read them to see how well they are doing at work, and with their social lives.
UltraMarines are the rich kids in school, who never had to work for anything or THINK for themsevles. Sheep that think everyone else should follow in their footsteps, if not that person is weird and must be made fun of.
See, this is called projecting. I dont think the ultramarines are going out of their way to make fun of people who dont follow in their footsteps. I am pretty sure they don't actually exist. So what if they were the 'rich kids in school'. There are a lot of people who came from wealth who work their asses off. Why is the ultramarines recruits having it easier growing up than the space wolf or blood angels ones a bad thing? I can respect people who come from the bottom and work their way up. I can also respect people who came from greatness and do their best to maintain that. Thats what is kind of cool about the space marines. The diverse backgrounds and styles, all fighting towards one common goal. There is absolutely nothing wrong with coming from money and success, its all about what you do with that money.
And this is what I love about talking about a fictonal group, if you try to relate them to anything you get the "But they are not real" well, I know that, and I would hope at least 99.9% on here did too.
And "going out of the way to make fun of" sure, they might not make it a point, but in their own way they still do it. In the books, being moved by GW to do so.
But lets go back to the "sheep" thing I said. So all new chapters have to come from the Ultramarines...everyone has to follow their rulesfrom their book, and not step out of line...well that sounds a lot like the kid in high school who wanted to pick fights with anyone who didnt wear whatever trendy new jacket was in style, or watch the same sports as them. The Ultramarines are the 40K universe's blind followers who want to make everyone else do everything just like them. I am not saying there are not other chapters out there as bad "Oh look, we are all wearing the same leather jackets and ripped jeans to prove we are our own people who think and dress for ourselves" but at least those works fo ficiton are not trying to make every other chapter just like them. On tope of the GW rams Ultramarines down yourt throat like WWE does John Cena, or the local FM station does Nickleback...
This, its really just special snowflake syndrome. The ultramarines not having any dark secrets, any horrible flaws, and still being successful means they should be shunned.
They are generally the most general generalists in the galaxy. If you want special snowflake syndrome you look at the space wolves, who really should have been under exterminatus for all the bs they pull in all aspects of their life, spit in the face of the inqusition time and time again, basically worship the wolves, not to mention the fact that their geneseed is mutating to the point where there's "Wulfen" Half mad space marine Beastmen/Chaos that should horrify any chapter.
Sorry, maybe I should have been more clear. The people hating ultramarines suffer from special snowflake syndrome. Everyone has to have terrible flaws that they must overcome, and obvious ones at that. So wolves are cool, they turn into werewolves, fight the man, and do whatever the feth they want while being smelly. Ultramarines dont mutate, are the man, and follow the rules while bathing. The 2nd does not appeal nearly as much to someone with the mind of a 14 year old nerd. You can spot these types by the amount of /tg/ phrases they use. 'mary sue' and 'noblebright' come to mind.
Because everyone just loves stories of history and ficition about the Avarage Joe, who is healthy, gets everything his way, and goes on from High School to College then becomes CEO, without having to pay back his student loans and have any hardship.
I mean look at comic books, no one reads Batman or Spide-Man because they lost their family, they read them to see how well they are doing at work, and with their social lives.
UltraMarines are the rich kids in school, who never had to work for anything or THINK for themsevles. Sheep that think everyone else should follow in their footsteps, if not that person is weird and must be made fun of.
See, this is called projecting. I dont think the ultramarines are going out of their way to make fun of people who dont follow in their footsteps. I am pretty sure they don't actually exist. So what if they were the 'rich kids in school'. There are a lot of people who came from wealth who work their asses off. Why is the ultramarines recruits having it easier growing up than the space wolf or blood angels ones a bad thing? I can respect people who come from the bottom and work their way up. I can also respect people who came from greatness and do their best to maintain that. Thats what is kind of cool about the space marines. The diverse backgrounds and styles, all fighting towards one common goal. There is absolutely nothing wrong with coming from money and success, its all about what you do with that money.
And this is what I love about talking about a fictonal group, if you try to relate them to anything you get the "But they are not real" well, I know that, and I would hope at least 99.9% on here did too.
And "going out of the way to make fun of" sure, they might not make it a point, but in their own way they still do it. In the books, being moved by GW to do so.
But lets go back to the "sheep" thing I said. So all new chapters have to come from the Ultramarines...everyone has to follow their rulesfrom their book, and not step out of line...well that sounds a lot like the kid in high school who wanted to pick fights with anyone who didnt wear whatever trendy new jacket was in style, or watch the same sports as them. The Ultramarines are the 40K universe's blind followers who want to make everyone else do everything just like them. I am not saying there are not other chapters out there as bad "Oh look, we are all wearing the same leather jackets and ripped jeans to prove we are our own people who think and dress for ourselves" but at least those works fo ficiton are not trying to make every other chapter just like them. On tope of the GW rams Ultramarines down yourt throat like WWE does John Cena, or the local FM station does Nickleback...
Quote spam is everywhere!
But I do have a point to make. The ultramarines aren't necessarily "ramming the codex arstartes down your throat", they're just overly strict about it. And before anyone complains that Captain Ventris wouldn't have been sent on a penance crusade just for joining the deathwatch if he was in another chapter, nearly all chapters do this kind of thing.
The ultramarines are just a stricter and more close-minded version of the other chapters. Not necessarily being dicks about it.
Asherian Command wrote:Why I hate and Like the Ultramarines -
Codex Astartes - Pros- Very good for tactical commanders that like to follow by the book. Good source for tactics, should be used to encourage new tacticians to make better tactics.
Robute Gulliman was not the greatest tactician. Horus was.
Well many people like to argue that the Lion was better than even Horus, but I won't argue that Guilliman was better than Horus. Because he wasn't. He did however, write down his knowledge for others to read and gain some tactical perception from. Guilliman may not have been better than all his brothers- but he was a Primarch. He was better than most other Imperial strategists. He doesn't have to be the best. He just has to be good and take the time to write it down.
Asherian Command wrote:Cons
But problems rise because the codex has many flaws like improving your strategies and also company structure. Alpha Legion for example could just read the codex make a good estimate of what the enemy was going to send and then beat the living snot out of the force that arrives. Yes I know what you are thinking. "But Ash! There is no way someone could predict an enemy engagement from a book that they follow, that also lists tactics and everything that needs to be done!" Well Sadly formations are pretty easy to decern if you bloody well have the thing they are coping, Oh look they are sending all their troops into space? What is it? STEEL REHIN? Yes.
Company organizations like the current are completely inflexible to deal with threats on a wider scale. Reconquering worlds with 1 battle company is dumb because their reserve company has only one type of unit to support it. Over long term the reserve company serves no other purpose than to sit there and provide support thats it. What if this reserve force is depleted? Well guess what you have to wait for the 100 scouts to distrubite themselves to the rest of the chapter that is still suffering from its losses!
The Codex is supposed to be a frame work for developing tactics and strategies. It is not supposed to be the end all solution to everything. When everything is standardized, there are a lot of helpful things that go along with it. Tactics and strategy development is a heck of a lot easier too. But there are bad things that come with it. Sure, your enemy may know how your units are made up, but that is hardly a deciding factor. Think of today's military. Infantry Squads are made up of fire teams, with each fire team made up of the same thing. Each Squad is composed the same way. But that doesn't seem to hinder any major nations fighting ability.
Asherian Command wrote:Blue- I hate the color it is a horrible contrasting color that is overly used in just about every single 'good guy' faction.
This one is all a matter of personal preference. There's nothing I can argue here. Other than the "good guy" faction thing perhaps. What are you basing this off of? Do you know the colors of Cobra from GI Joe?
Asherian Command wrote:Cato Scarius- Completely incompetent. Instead of sending in his scout squads to deal with the issues on black reach with you know stealth. INSTEAD! He charges in with a thunder hawk, he then gets wounded telion takes over and gets stuff done. Cato Scarius then charges into combat again against a Necron Lord, I don't really know why he couldn't of just shot the bloody thing, or you know thought about it, instead of revering the codex and use every inch of it like it is the way of life. Also because lets face his armor is from like what 20 dead space marines? That spells "I'm better than all of you, see all these awards, yeah i got them for being suicidally brave! You Know do you have any shiny badges! NO YOu DON'T!"
Sicarius is rash and foolhardy, but isn't that what you Ultramarine bashers like? That's one of the things you (maybe not you personally) listed as a good thing about the Space Wolves. Yet when the Ultras have a shade of the same thing, it's now a bad thing? Which is it?
Sicarius is the Captain of the Second. He does not have scouts. The scouts are in the 10th company and out of his authority. The Ultramarines are almost deficiently honor bound. That is, they value it to the point where it can be a bad thing. It is not honorable to simply light up the commander of an entire Tomb World with a plasma pistol when you can attempt a duel of sorts. That's how the Ultras are. One of their main characteristics. Space Marines live to fight and die. They all will die in battle. They want to make the most out of thier deaths. For him, that's being bested in single combat. He deserves all the medals he has, he earned them.
If you were at a Military ceremony and the guy next to you had the Congressional Medal of Honor draped around his neck, would you go off on him about showing off his medal? Probably not.
Asherian Command wrote:Calgar- You sir lead a frontal assualt against... a massive devouring horde and thought it was a good idea? Who taught you tactics Chapter Master Custard Cannae? Anyone that dives straight towards the enemy sounds like you read the tactics of the Codex Astartes horribly wrong. Unless it calls for something like this. "When faced with a Massive Alien swarm immediately go head first with no support."
Calgar you silly young lad, you cannot charge into a ork Wagh and hold a gate for 30 days. I'm pretty sure there was another company helping you, but you ignored them because they were under the Command of Captain Uriel Ventris.
Again with the honor thing. I think it's to the point where we cannot comprehend their thought processes in these situations. So I'll leave this one alone.
Asherian Command wrote:Good things:
Apart from being tactically incompetent and strategically slowed, Calgar is a good leader, he inspires his soldiers, and acts relatively nice to his allies. Though more often than not, everything has to be. By the book. Which is actually a good thing.
He is a talented warrior, and has two powerfists and ripped apart a daemon with his powered hands. Which is actually pretty cool, and of course he as the only one to remember who the grey knights where. Though i suspect that is because of Ward Armor.
Since when is by the book a bad thing? It's not. Not in the slightest. I'm being taught that now in ROTC. If there is a guideline, you better follow it. The Ultramarines have no more plot armor than any other marine chapter.
Asherian Command wrote:History:
Good: Very indepth and has alot of their victories including their 'losses'. They fought very hard against their enemies and they always somehow turn a loss to a victory.
Bad: So indepth that actually feels kinda stupid how they spend the entire book talking about them yet the Imperial Fists only have 3 paragraphs worth of info that talk about them.
They kinda are shown to be stupid and blind to betrayal and blind about the future. I am looking at you Titus and Leonidas, also you 1st company, calgar and well basically every single one of you.
Another urk is the fact that in one short story, how the 3rd company captain sarcraficed himself on a bridge. Well hhahaha! This proves them to be awesome! No it doesn't. Because i keeped thinking to myself, why did you keep all of your denotaters with one person? That is like the redshirt in Star Trek, you know he is going to die. So why bother? Why didn't you keep a back up? AND THEN BLOW UP A BRIDGE?
Also your thunderhawks arrived? Why didn't you bloody well use them then? "Brothers retreat to the thunderhawks!"
"But captain can't we just do a bombing run on the enemy position!"
"NO that is too logical I must stay behind because I forgot that I gave all the bomb denotaters to jimmy!"
"Sir, why didn't you keep one to yourself?"
"Quiet and leave this planet!"
"........"
Also the first company and the fifth and sixth companies getting owned by an entire tyranid hive fleet. La de dum. Who though this was a good idea? And why not act smart and use hit and run tactics?Also what irks me is that they spent so much time on the 'main characters' instead of the first company. All we know is that the 1st company died and 5 terminators were stacked against each other like tipped over cows.
Everything isn't so black and white. You can't just read things to try to find flaws. You have to read them for what they are on the outside, then look again to find its real meaning. The part about the bridge. It's ironic because you have been labelling following a plan as bad thing, yet when they wing it, it is suddenly even worse. Fairness is not always equal. We don't have the same amount of information on the Imperial Fists as we do the Ultramarines. It's like in the Imperial Guard codex. There is a couple short paragraphs on the Mordian Iron Guard, but the whole book is about Cadians. Why? There is more of a fan base. There is more information.
Your arguements at this point are becoming less and less rational.
Asherian Command wrote:Homeworld: Good- Is awesome compared to the rest of the imperium
Bad: Really can't think of any considering the fact this is probably the coolest part of the chapter.
Preheresy:
There isn't that much to see here. So move along.
Heresy:
My biggest irk with this chapter is that they were oh so conveniently the galactic southeast. Including all 210,000 of them.
The next big one is that they were caught off guard. WEll actually for the first time. By the wordbearers.
"Oh hey scary brothers with human corpses strewn over their ships. Hows it going?"
"DIE!!!!!"
"Wait I thought we were friends?"
"Your a ##$!#$!!#$ !$#!@$!@ @#$!@&^&$@#% !"
" But Logar!"
"I am a servant of the chaos gods."
Did you even read Know No Fear? It sounds like you did, but you read in a context in a way that made it impossible to discern real information. You can't always be so subjective.
They were NOT 'conveniently over there'. Horus put them there. Why? For multiple reasons. One it makes it easier for him to attack Terra. Two because the idea of Brother attacking Brother is a good plot device. Sure it was everywhere in the series, but nowhere like between the Word Bearers and the Ultramarines. It is logical and it flows for the Heresy. If they were on Terra, you would hate them for being there and having an important role. They can't win with you.
Asherian Command wrote:This is the only time I have ever actually cheered for Chaos. Robute was a jerk to his fellow primarchs. Some of the reasons why they betrayed the Imperium in the first place was because Robute decided to be a jerk to everyone
Robute Gulliman was a Douchecanoe to the following primarchs.....
Alpharius
Horus
Sanginius
Corax
Rogal Dorn
Jaghati Khan
Leman Russ
Lion El'Johnson
Magnus
Night Haunter
Petraubo
Ferrus Manus
Angron
-evidence Spiritual Liege and also the fact he points to how many successful campagins he has had. Also Horus even stated he didn't have too much ambition.
The Ultramarines were actually full of themselves before and after the heresy. Which reminds me of actual Rome. Which they Actually do achieve and I give the writers credit for writing it that way.
Again with the Subjectivity. Where is your evidence? What do you cite for sources of this? Because I know that this is untrue. They all do not hate Guilliman. In fact, non of the Primarchs really HATE another, with the exception of course of some like Mortarion and Curze. Simply throwing out names and information without evidence to back it up is pretty unfair. Pissed them off? Maybe every now and then. But if you have siblings, you will know all too well that while they can piss you off pretty badly sometimes, you don't necessarily hate them because of it. Same here. It looks like they dislike him every now and then, but you are warping that into simply hating him all the time. And the list of those Primarchs that do feel that way is not as comprehensive as the one above.
EDIT: I have never read Spiritual Leige, but I feel that my arguement of hatred vs sibling rivalry/annoyance still applies. Even so, I doubt it goes through and names all those Primarchs and at the same time says that they all hate Guilliman.
Asherian Command wrote:Anyway that is my rant. I won't respond because lets face it my opinion is my opinion.(and my observations)
You put it on the internet, so I am free to respond
I understand it's your opinion, but discussion of opinions is the best way to find compromise and discern a merited arguement from simple bashing.
'Just because it is your opinion doesn't mean it's right'-- My Dad
I find the hate comes from people who ARE Ultramarine fanboys, who project onto other Ultramarine players, that are not fanboys. Haters take this as an annoyance from the blubbering and lump it with anyone who has Ultramarines and try to root out the problem with coming up with insult after insult. To which the fanboys or otherwise might try to defend by insulting others...
HATE LEADS TO HATE PEOPLE!!!!
(I havent posted on this thing ever since i started the school year ~_~)
I kind of always liked the Ultramarines. They had a real cool diorama in Rogue Trader, fighting orks on cat walks and a UM Dread busting through the wall.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
UltramarineRV wrote:I find the hate comes from people who ARE Ultramarine fanboys, who project onto other Ultramarine players, that are not fanboys. Haters take this as an annoyance from the blubbering and lump it with anyone who has Ultramarines and try to root out the problem with coming up with insult after insult. To which the fanboys or otherwise might try to defend by insulting others...
HATE LEADS TO HATE PEOPLE!!!!
(I havent posted on this thing ever since i started the school year ~_~)
And no, its fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate...sheesh wheres Yoda when you need him
UltramarineRV wrote:I find the hate comes from people who ARE Ultramarine fanboys, who project onto other Ultramarine players, that are not fanboys. Haters take this as an annoyance from the blubbering and lump it with anyone who has Ultramarines and try to root out the problem with coming up with insult after insult. To which the fanboys or otherwise might try to defend by insulting others...
HATE LEADS TO HATE PEOPLE!!!!
(I havent posted on this thing ever since i started the school year ~_~)
Has anyone actually met an ultramarines fanboy? Every single ultramarines players I know thinks they are cool, but doesnt really care to tell you about if they think ultramarines are cooler than your army. This seems like one of those phantoms that doesnt actually exist, except in the minds of people who spend too much time on the internet.
UltramarineRV wrote:I find the hate comes from people who ARE Ultramarine fanboys, who project onto other Ultramarine players, that are not fanboys. Haters take this as an annoyance from the blubbering and lump it with anyone who has Ultramarines and try to root out the problem with coming up with insult after insult. To which the fanboys or otherwise might try to defend by insulting others...
HATE LEADS TO HATE PEOPLE!!!!
(I havent posted on this thing ever since i started the school year ~_~)
Has anyone actually met an ultramarines fanboy? Every single ultramarines players I know thinks they are cool, but doesnt really care to tell you about if they think ultramarines are cooler than your army. This seems like one of those phantoms that doesnt actually exist, except in the minds of people who spend too much time on the internet.
I have found that it happens like this:
Player A has Space Wolves (or any other army)
Player B has Ultramarines
Players A and B discuss the fluff and its major points, including armies and such. The discussion of Ultramarines begins with Player A stating they hate them. Now Player B goes to their defense (it's his army after all). Player A calls Player B a 'fanboy' for defending the Ultras.
Same on here. If someone responds to posts defending a viewpoint, they are labelled as being fanboys of that view.
Eidolon wrote:Yeah, see, when you link 4chan it becomes really hard to take your argument seriously.
Umm, I really wasn't trying to start an argument, I was just showing the op why some people hate the ultramarines. I don't really feel like arguing with strangers about a fantasy universe
This, its really just special snowflake syndrome. The ultramarines not having any dark secrets, any horrible flaws, and still being successful means they should be shunned.
They are generally the most general generalists in the galaxy. If you want special snowflake syndrome you look at the space wolves, who really should have been under exterminatus for all the bs they pull in all aspects of their life, spit in the face of the inqusition time and time again, basically worship the wolves, not to mention the fact that their geneseed is mutating to the point where there's "Wulfen" Half mad space marine Beastmen/Chaos that should horrify any chapter.
Sorry, maybe I should have been more clear. The people hating ultramarines suffer from special snowflake syndrome. Everyone has to have terrible flaws that they must overcome, and obvious ones at that. So wolves are cool, they turn into werewolves, fight the man, and do whatever the feth they want while being smelly. Ultramarines dont mutate, are the man, and follow the rules while bathing. The 2nd does not appeal nearly as much to someone with the mind of a 14 year old nerd. You can spot these types by the amount of /tg/ phrases they use. 'mary sue' and 'noblebright' come to mind.
Because everyone just loves stories of history and ficition about the Avarage Joe, who is healthy, gets everything his way, and goes on from High School to College then becomes CEO, without having to pay back his student loans and have any hardship.
I mean look at comic books, no one reads Batman or Spide-Man because they lost their family, they read them to see how well they are doing at work, and with their social lives.
UltraMarines are the rich kids in school, who never had to work for anything or THINK for themsevles. Sheep that think everyone else should follow in their footsteps, if not that person is weird and must be made fun of.
Oh hey, I wonder what the original first company must think about this, before they got devoured and the "new" veterans realized they had to forcefully think and wake up about the fact that their book doesn't have the tactics for everything. To the point where they had to develop non-standard tactics against a foe that constantly learned.
LoneLictor wrote:Cuz Matt Ward wrote some poor quality fluff for them and the faction became strongly associated with it.
Ok, now what poorly written fluff are you referring to? Maybe I'm just ignorant but I read through the last codex and didn't find anything particularly offensive. Granted I actually play Ultmarines, but even so I guess I don't know what fluff people are saying was bad...
Enlighten me.
I could post up my long explanation of why people hate the Ultramarines, but I don't feel like looking for it.
The Cliff's Notes are: The Ultramarines have been described as the best for twenty years. Some people are jealous that their favorite color of Space Marine wasn't chosen as the best, so they decide to hate on the Ultramarines. It has nothing to do with Mat Ward. People hated on the Ultramarines long before the 5E codex came out, and the C:SM fluff was no worse or OTT than other existing codex books. They hated them in the old days because they were "boring". More recently, people have invented this idea that they have "no flaws" or other weak, nonsense reasoning.
Somebody had to be the best. Somebody had to put the Imperium back together. Somebody had to write the Codex Astartes to explain why GW had decided Space Marine Chapters were only 1000 guys. They decided that somebody was the Ultramarines. And by they, we mean the guys like Rick Priestley who invented 40K.
There is no such thing as Ultramarines fanboys, lol. Ultramarines fans are the guys saying "I don't get why all these goobers hate the Ultramarines so much", and not sitting around saying "Ultramarinez iz bestest! Ur guyz suxxor!"
Asherian Command wrote:Cons
But problems rise because the codex has many flaws like improving your strategies and also company structure. Alpha Legion for example could just read the codex make a good estimate of what the enemy was going to send and then beat the living snot out of the force that arrives. Yes I know what you are thinking. "But Ash! There is no way someone could predict an enemy engagement from a book that they follow, that also lists tactics and everything that needs to be done!" Well Sadly formations are pretty easy to decern if you bloody well have the thing they are coping, Oh look they are sending all their troops into space? What is it? STEEL REHIN? Yes.
Sadly, this isn't what the Codex is about. That's just how Graham McNeill wrote it in his terrible Ultramarines novels, lol. The original, and persisting, descriptions of the Codex treat it like this amazing tome of knowledge and examples that great commanders can use to make educated decisions on the fly to react to the battlefield and proactively stay ahead of their opponents. The idea that someone could just "read the Codex" and predict what his opponent was going to do is ludicrous, because there are supposed to be hundreds of pages and options for any given situation. To out think someone who had mastered the Codex, you'd have to have... mastered the Codex.
Welcome to real life. How do you think real world generals learn how to be generals? And how do you think they learn to be better generals? They win battles by using the same tactics and strategy everyone knows, they just use them more innovatively, or at the right time. There's not ever going to be an "If A, Then B" answer to any battle, because there are thousands of variables to any battle (troops, environment, terrain, time, weather, weaponry, reserves, supplies, rest... etc).
Any time you read something to the extent "in this situation the Codex would dictate", just assume that whoever wrote it actually knows nothing about warfare and is just scribbling words on a page trying to reach a certain page count. The Ultramarines have suffered from really, really bad fluff writing, that's all. Sadly, the Black Library lets McNeill continue to publish garbage that makes the Ultramarines look like morons, and for players to wonder how they could be "the greatest of all Space Marine Chapters" if they're such incredible morons.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
bibblles wrote:
LoneLictor wrote:Cuz Matt Ward wrote some poor quality fluff for them and the faction became strongly associated with it.
Ok, now what poorly written fluff are you referring to? Maybe I'm just ignorant but I read through the last codex and didn't find anything particularly offensive. Granted I actually play Ultmarines, but even so I guess I don't know what fluff people are saying was bad...
Enlighten me.
Usually it's the "spiritual liege" part, which people don't realize only refers to Ultramarines successors. Which makes complete sense the second you take a minute to think about it. If you're a 2nd Founding Successor, then your original Marines were Ultramarines, and the XIII Legion is still your Legion, and there'd be a definite tie to the Ultramarines. And if you're from a later founding, then you have no primarch, but the closest thing you have is Guilliman since you're still descended from him, and if you're going to look at the past for achievements to be proud of or a model to use as an ideal to imitate, you're probably going to take your genetic predecessors, the Ultramarines. Considering that more than 60% of existing Chapters are descended from the Ultramarines, this is a lot of chapters.
Veteran Sergeant wrote:
The Cliff's Notes are: The Ultramarines have been described as the best for twenty years. Some people are jealous that their favorite color of Space Marine wasn't chosen as the best, so they decide to hate on the Ultramarines. It has nothing to do with Mat Ward. People hated on the Ultramarines long before the 5E codex came out, and the C:SM fluff was no worse or OTT than other existing codex books. They hated them in the old days because they were "boring". More recently, people have invented this idea that they have "no flaws" or other weak, nonsense reasoning.
Mat Ward however did throw a big heaping pile of kindling on the simmering flames.
Somebody had to be the best.
I see no reason for this statement to be true. What other race has a sub-faction specifically labelled as "the best"? None that I can think of. There is no "best" Imperial Guard, there is no "best" Ork Clan, there is no "best" Chaos god, there is no "best" Chaos Legion, there is no "best" Craftworld, etc.
Somebody had to put the Imperium back together. Somebody had to write the Codex Astartes to explain why GW had decided Space Marine Chapters were only 1000 guys. They decided that somebody was the Ultramarines. And by they, we mean the guys like Rick Priestley who invented 40K.
That stuff is all fine, the problem is when they are portrayed as "better" just because. How is an Ultramarine a superior Space Marine to an Imperial Fist or an Iron Hand or a Salamander or a Space Wolf or a Blood Angel? I can't thin of anything in particular, and I see no reason why they *had* to be described that way.
Anything that comes off saying "They're the best" is likely to be disliked becomes it comes off as arrogance on the part of the faction in question and crony-fanboy-ish writing on the part of the author, whether it is or not that is what the perception will be. If one group is clearly "the best", well, that diminishes everyone else doesn't it?
Any time you read something to the extent "in this situation the Codex would dictate", just assume that whoever wrote it actually knows nothing about warfare and is just scribbling words on a page trying to reach a certain page count. The Ultramarines have suffered from really, really bad fluff writing, that's all.
That's the problem. If the fluff is bad people won't like the faction. Simple as that. Huge amounts of Ultramarines fluff, both codex and BL, is bad. It's not unique to the Ultramarines, nor are they the only faction that gets hate because of it.
Veteran Sergeant wrote:I could post up my long explanation of why people hate the Ultramarines, but I don't feel like looking for it.
The Cliff's Notes are: The Ultramarines have been described as the best for twenty years. Some people are jealous that their favorite color of Space Marine wasn't chosen as the best, so they decide to hate on the Ultramarines. It has nothing to do with Mat Ward. People hated on the Ultramarines long before the 5E codex came out, and the C:SM fluff was no worse or OTT than other existing codex books. They hated them in the old days because they were "boring". More recently, people have invented this idea that they have "no flaws" or other weak, nonsense reasoning.
Somebody had to be the best. Somebody had to put the Imperium back together. Somebody had to write the Codex Astartes to explain why GW had decided Space Marine Chapters were only 1000 guys. They decided that somebody was the Ultramarines. And by they, we mean the guys like Rick Priestley who invented 40K.
There is no such thing as Ultramarines fanboys, lol. Ultramarines fans are the guys saying "I don't get why all these goobers hate the Ultramarines so much", and not sitting around saying "Ultramarinez iz bestest! Ur guyz suxxor!"
Asherian Command wrote:Cons
But problems rise because the codex has many flaws like improving your strategies and also company structure. Alpha Legion for example could just read the codex make a good estimate of what the enemy was going to send and then beat the living snot out of the force that arrives. Yes I know what you are thinking. "But Ash! There is no way someone could predict an enemy engagement from a book that they follow, that also lists tactics and everything that needs to be done!" Well Sadly formations are pretty easy to decern if you bloody well have the thing they are coping, Oh look they are sending all their troops into space? What is it? STEEL REHIN? Yes.
Sadly, this isn't what the Codex is about. That's just how Graham McNeill wrote it in his terrible Ultramarines novels, lol. The original, and persisting, descriptions of the Codex treat it like this amazing tome of knowledge and examples that great commanders can use to make educated decisions on the fly to react to the battlefield and proactively stay ahead of their opponents. The idea that someone could just "read the Codex" and predict what his opponent was going to do is ludicrous, because there are supposed to be hundreds of pages and options for any given situation. To out think someone who had mastered the Codex, you'd have to have... mastered the Codex.
Welcome to real life. How do you think real world generals learn how to be generals? And how do you think they learn to be better generals? They win battles by using the same tactics and strategy everyone knows, they just use them more innovatively, or at the right time. There's not ever going to be an "If A, Then B" answer to any battle, because there are thousands of variables to any battle (troops, environment, terrain, time, weather, weaponry, reserves, supplies, rest... etc).
Any time you read something to the extent "in this situation the Codex would dictate", just assume that whoever wrote it actually knows nothing about warfare and is just scribbling words on a page trying to reach a certain page count. The Ultramarines have suffered from really, really bad fluff writing, that's all. Sadly, the Black Library lets McNeill continue to publish garbage that makes the Ultramarines look like morons, and for players to wonder how they could be "the greatest of all Space Marine Chapters" if they're such incredible morons.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
bibblles wrote:
LoneLictor wrote:Cuz Matt Ward wrote some poor quality fluff for them and the faction became strongly associated with it.
Ok, now what poorly written fluff are you referring to? Maybe I'm just ignorant but I read through the last codex and didn't find anything particularly offensive. Granted I actually play Ultmarines, but even so I guess I don't know what fluff people are saying was bad...
Enlighten me.
Usually it's the "spiritual liege" part, which people don't realize only refers to Ultramarines successors. Which makes complete sense the second you take a minute to think about it. If you're a 2nd Founding Successor, then your original Marines were Ultramarines, and the XIII Legion is still your Legion, and there'd be a definite tie to the Ultramarines. And if you're from a later founding, then you have no primarch, but the closest thing you have is Guilliman since you're still descended from him, and if you're going to look at the past for achievements to be proud of or a model to use as an ideal to imitate, you're probably going to take your genetic predecessors, the Ultramarines. Considering that more than 60% of existing Chapters are descended from the Ultramarines, this is a lot of chapters.
In agreement with this:
Basically, the codex arsartes is a huge book on tactical philosophy. Guillimann wrote it with the intention that people use it as a learning experince.
The book basically goes like this:
Scenario 1.
In M29, Captain ____ used "Tactic A" in order to combat the aforementioned scenario.
Que tactical debate on possibilities, which tactics could have been more/less effective, and how this tactic turned out.
Asherian Command wrote:Blue- I hate the color it is a horrible contrasting color that is overly used in just about every single 'good guy' faction.
This one is all a matter of personal preference. There's nothing I can argue here. Other than the "good guy" faction thing perhaps. What are you basing this off of? Do you know the colors of Cobra from GI Joe?
Cobra's guns fired red, GI Joe Blue. Gnome and Juliet, red and blue...then there is Red Vs Blue. Most cartoons have some sort of Blue is Good, Red is Bad thing going...
And you brought up ROTC, well remember the two most dangerous things you will ever hear is an E1 saying "I learned this is Basic" and an O1 saying "I got a map!"
Trust me, everything I learned in JrROTC, ROTC, and Basic got tossed out the window. There is the right way, and the way you say it's done. Just remember as an Officer, if it's always by the book, then you will see a lot of "Sniper Check"
Officers are taught how it is done on paper, it's Chief that teaches you the right way to do it.
Asherian Command wrote:Why I hate and Like the Ultramarines -
Codex Astartes - Pros- Very good for tactical commanders that like to follow by the book. Good source for tactics, should be used to encourage new tacticians to make better tactics.
Robute Gulliman was not the greatest tactician. Horus was.
Well many people like to argue that the Lion was better than even Horus, but I won't argue that Guilliman was better than Horus. Because he wasn't. He did however, write down his knowledge for others to read and gain some tactical perception from. Guilliman may not have been better than all his brothers- but he was a Primarch. He was better than most other Imperial strategists. He doesn't have to be the best. He just has to be good and take the time to write it down.
Agreed. But to me the book squeaks out Ultramarines DA BEST, I even facepalmed when I read when everyone wants to be an Ultramarine.... That part offended me.
Asherian Command wrote:Cons
But problems rise because the codex has many flaws like improving your strategies and also company structure. Alpha Legion for example could just read the codex make a good estimate of what the enemy was going to send and then beat the living snot out of the force that arrives. Yes I know what you are thinking. "But Ash! There is no way someone could predict an enemy engagement from a book that they follow, that also lists tactics and everything that needs to be done!" Well Sadly formations are pretty easy to decern if you bloody well have the thing they are coping, Oh look they are sending all their troops into space? What is it? STEEL REHIN? Yes.
Company organizations like the current are completely inflexible to deal with threats on a wider scale. Reconquering worlds with 1 battle company is dumb because their reserve company has only one type of unit to support it. Over long term the reserve company serves no other purpose than to sit there and provide support thats it. What if this reserve force is depleted? Well guess what you have to wait for the 100 scouts to distribute themselves to the rest of the chapter that is still suffering from its losses!
The Codex is supposed to be a frame work for developing tactics and strategies. It is not supposed to be the end all solution to everything. When everything is standardized, there are a lot of helpful things that go along with it. Tactics and strategy development is a heck of a lot easier too. But there are bad things that come with it. Sure, your enemy may know how your units are made up, but that is hardly a deciding factor. Think of today's military. Infantry Squads are made up of fire teams, with each fire team made up of the same thing. Each Squad is composed the same way. But that doesn't seem to hinder any major nations fighting ability.
And yet chapters can be punished for not following oh the holy Codex because of one minor deviation (Badab War)
The Framework? Some chapters uphold everything in the codex as everything in life. I.E Red Scorpions and the Ultramarine Successors (Also the Storm Wardens)
I understand that infantry squads are fire teams that makes sense. But splitting them up also helps too. But having 6 tactical squads 2 devastator squads and 2 assualt squads is kinda of a bad idea, It is easer to split it up into even groups. Like 3 tactical squads 3 devastator squads 3 assualt squads and 1 veteran squad (Of course this could be GW trying to make it legal for force organization.)
PLus it would be easier to go into an Imperial Tactics group that is constantly added with updated info. I am saying that the codex is too revered and sacred that the Ultramarines too heavily rely on it. Instead of Improv or using new tactics that have been simulated to perfection then building off from that.
Asherian Command wrote:Blue- I hate the color it is a horrible contrasting color that is overly used in just about every single 'good guy' faction.
This one is all a matter of personal preference. There's nothing I can argue here. Other than the "good guy" faction thing perhaps. What are you basing this off of? Do you know the colors of Cobra from GI Joe?
I have never watched GI Joe.
But In every show I have seen blue side is usually good and red side is evil because it is red.
(StarWars)
Asherian Command wrote:Cato Scarius- Completely incompetent. Instead of sending in his scout squads to deal with the issues on black reach with you know stealth. INSTEAD! He charges in with a thunder hawk, he then gets wounded telion takes over and gets stuff done. Cato Scarius then charges into combat again against a Necron Lord, I don't really know why he couldn't of just shot the bloody thing, or you know thought about it, instead of revering the codex and use every inch of it like it is the way of life. Also because lets face his armor is from like what 20 dead space marines? That spells "I'm better than all of you, see all these awards, yeah i got them for being suicidally brave! You Know do you have any shiny badges! NO YOu DON'T!"
Sicarius is rash and foolhardy, but isn't that what you Ultramarine bashers like? That's one of the things you (maybe not you personally) listed as a good thing about the Space Wolves. Yet when the Ultras have a shade of the same thing, it's now a bad thing? Which is it?
Sicarius is the Captain of the Second. He does not have scouts. The scouts are in the 10th company and out of his authority. The Ultramarines are almost deficiently honor bound. That is, they value it to the point where it can be a bad thing. It is not honorable to simply light up the commander of an entire Tomb World with a plasma pistol when you can attempt a duel of sorts. That's how the Ultras are. One of their main characteristics. Space Marines live to fight and die. They all will die in battle. They want to make the most out of thier deaths. For him, that's being bested in single combat. He deserves all the medals he has, he earned them.
If you were at a Military ceremony and the guy next to you had the Congressional Medal of Honor draped around his neck, would you go off on him about showing off his medal? Probably not.
The problem is that he constantly throws himself into trouble, he doesn't actually win combat by himself. His company is fine by himself. Kinda of Like how Ender in Ender's Game allowed his toons to become self sufficient even without a commander.I like that part. But lets face it. That is what bugs me, he isn't needed, his company deserves its place.
The chapter only shows ranks higher the captain. Apart from the two lower rank guys. (But who would count them, as they are so insignificant to the ultramarines)
At black reach he did have scouts. All scouts are attached to companies for training. He is the Captain of the Second or Master of the Watch, he over rules the Captain of Recruits as he is not present. So Scarius is the leader of the ultramarines present. They were in his authority. They are not the Alpha Legion. The Ultramarines are known for being all-rounders and for following the codex, in every campaign where scouts are involved they are put under the command of the Chapter's Highest Rank Present.
Asherian Command wrote:Calgar- You sir lead a frontal assualt against... a massive devouring horde and thought it was a good idea? Who taught you tactics Chapter Master Custard Cannae? Anyone that dives straight towards the enemy sounds like you read the tactics of the Codex Astartes horribly wrong. Unless it calls for something like this. "When faced with a Massive Alien swarm immediately go head first with no support."
Calgar you silly young lad, you cannot charge into a ork Wagh and hold a gate for 30 days. I'm pretty sure there was another company helping you, but you ignored them because they were under the Command of Captain Uriel Ventris.
Again with the honor thing. I think it's to the point where we cannot comprehend their thought processes in these situations. So I'll leave this one alone.
There is no honor for losing all of your honor guard to the Tyranid swarm along with the Standard Bearer and 1/3 of your chapter.
There is no honor in stupidity. The Imperium rewards heroism and for being smart about being heroic. But Calgar rushed in. There is no honor in that.
Asherian Command wrote:Good things: Apart from being tactically incompetent and strategically slowed, Calgar is a good leader, he inspires his soldiers, and acts relatively nice to his allies. Though more often than not, everything has to be. By the book. Which is actually a good thing.
He is a talented warrior, and has two powerfists and ripped apart a daemon with his powered hands. Which is actually pretty cool, and of course he as the only one to remember who the grey knights where. Though i suspect that is because of Ward Armor.
Since when is by the book a bad thing? It's not. Not in the slightest. I'm being taught that now in ROTC. If there is a guideline, you better follow it. The Ultramarines have no more plot armor than any other marine chapter.
Apparently you didn't read that was actually A GOOD THING i'll highlight for you
Asherian Command wrote:History:
Good: Very indepth and has alot of their victories including their 'losses'. They fought very hard against their enemies and they always somehow turn a loss to a victory.
Bad: So indepth that actually feels kinda stupid how they spend the entire book talking about them yet the Imperial Fists only have 3 paragraphs worth of info that talk about them.
They kinda are shown to be stupid and blind to betrayal and blind about the future. I am looking at you Titus and Leonidas, also you 1st company, calgar and well basically every single one of you.
Another urk is the fact that in one short story, how the 3rd company captain sarcraficed himself on a bridge. Well hhahaha! This proves them to be awesome! No it doesn't. Because i keeped thinking to myself, why did you keep all of your denotaters with one person? That is like the redshirt in Star Trek, you know he is going to die. So why bother? Why didn't you keep a back up? AND THEN BLOW UP A BRIDGE?
Also your thunderhawks arrived? Why didn't you bloody well use them then? "Brothers retreat to the thunderhawks!"
"But captain can't we just do a bombing run on the enemy position!"
"NO that is too logical I must stay behind because I forgot that I gave all the bomb denotaters to jimmy!"
"Sir, why didn't you keep one to yourself?"
"Quiet and leave this planet!"
"........"
Also the first company and the fifth and sixth companies getting owned by an entire tyranid hive fleet. La de dum. Who though this was a good idea? And why not act smart and use hit and run tactics?Also what irks me is that they spent so much time on the 'main characters' instead of the first company. All we know is that the 1st company died and 5 terminators were stacked against each other like tipped over cows.
Everything isn't so black and white. You can't just read things to try to find flaws. You have to read them for what they are on the outside, then look again to find its real meaning. The part about the bridge. It's ironic because you have been labelling following a plan as bad thing, yet when they wing it, it is suddenly even worse. Fairness is not always equal. We don't have the same amount of information on the Imperial Fists as we do the Ultramarines. It's like in the Imperial Guard codex. There is a couple short paragraphs on the Mordian Iron Guard, but the whole book is about Cadians. Why? There is more of a fan base. There is more information.
I don't read things to find flaws. The flaws found me. When they wing it is even worse because now they are hypocrites! I am fine with their by the book and go by the plan but you can't rely on just one codex written 10,000 years ago to help. You need to formulate you need to actually plan for any type of contingency.
Plus the Imperial Fist issue is so minor. But the Fists need some facetime. They are the son's of dorn. They fought at the Imperial Palace they deserve a pizza or something.
Your arguements at this point are becoming less and less rational.
Less Rational? Hmm. Sounds more Rational overtime if you put it together
Asherian Command wrote:Homeworld: Good- Is awesome compared to the rest of the imperium
Bad: Really can't think of any considering the fact this is probably the coolest part of the chapter.
Preheresy:
There isn't that much to see here. So move along.
Heresy:
My biggest irk with this chapter is that they were oh so conveniently the galactic southeast. Including all 210,000 of them.
The next big one is that they were caught off guard. WEll actually for the first time. By the wordbearers.
"Oh hey scary brothers with human corpses strewn over their ships. Hows it going?"
"DIE!!!!!"
"Wait I thought we were friends?"
"Your a ##$!#$!!#$ !$#!@$!@ @#$!@&^&$@#% !"
" But Logar!"
"I am a servant of the chaos gods."
Did you even read Know No Fear? It sounds like you did, but you read in a context in a way that made it impossible to discern real information. You can't always be so subjective.
They were NOT 'conveniently over there'. Horus put them there. Why? For multiple reasons. One it makes it easier for him to attack Terra. Two because the idea of Brother attacking Brother is a good plot device. Sure it was everywhere in the series, but nowhere like between the Word Bearers and the Ultramarines. It is logical and it flows for the Heresy. If they were on Terra, you would hate them for being there and having an important role. They can't win with you.
No I have not actually read "Know No Fear". I read Collected visions and actually very few of the horus heresy books.
Also I am talking fluffy not what sells well
Actually no I wouldn't hate them. I would actually Like them. Another main reason I hate/dislike them is because they weren't at Terra. The DA and the Space Wolves beat them. I know they were far away but at least your fastest ships could of arrived first.
for being such a talented tactician Gulliman really didn't think of trying to send half his fleet to terra. As the Word Bearers force was significantly smaller than the Ultramarine's Legion.
This was half of the Word Bearers. Not all of them.
Asherian Command wrote:This is the only time I have ever actually cheered for Chaos. Robute was a jerk to his fellow primarchs. Some of the reasons why they betrayed the Imperium in the first place was because Robute decided to be a jerk to everyone
Robute Gulliman was a Douchecanoe to the following primarchs.....
Alpharius
Horus
Sanginius
Corax
Rogal Dorn
Jaghati Khan
Leman Russ
Lion El'Johnson
Magnus
Night Haunter
Petraubo
Ferrus Manus
Angron
-evidence Spiritual Liege and also the fact he points to how many successful campagins he has had. Also Horus even stated he didn't have too much ambition.
The Ultramarines were actually full of themselves before and after the heresy. Which reminds me of actual Rome. Which they Actually do achieve and I give the writers credit for writing it that way.
Again with the Subjectivity. Where is your evidence? What do you cite for sources of this? Because I know that this is untrue. They all do not hate Guilliman. In fact, non of the Primarchs really HATE another, with the exception of course of some like Mortarion and Curze. Simply throwing out names and information without evidence to back it up is pretty unfair. Pissed them off? Maybe every now and then. But if you have siblings, you will know all too well that while they can piss you off pretty badly sometimes, you don't necessarily hate them because of it. Same here. It looks like they dislike him every now and then, but you are warping that into simply hating him all the time. And the list of those Primarchs that do feel that way is not as comprehensive as the one above.
EDIT: I have never read Spiritual Leige, but I feel that my arguement of hatred vs sibling rivalry/annoyance still applies. Even so, I doubt it goes through and names all those Primarchs and at the same time says that they all hate Guilliman.
Gulliman and Rogal dorn had a bit of a fight between each other. One disagreed with another about tactics so they had a friendly kind of rivilary.
Gulliman was all about honor, he did not seen any honor in the Alpha Legion, or The Raven Guard, or the World Eaters, Or the Thousand Sons, or the Night Lords.
As such he hated them and they hated him. Especially Alpharius as he noticed that Gulliman kept pointing at his victories. Though Alpharius had won a battle that would of take the ultramarines a year to do.
Plus the Term Siblings is a matter of debate, it is more of a Hierarchy Political family, than an actual 'family'.
I mean Dislike is probably a more accurate term than Hate though. Probably wanting to murder him sometimes like a politician that gets beaten by some third party guy. Of course he is going to think of murder.
Asherian Command wrote:Anyway that is my rant. I won't respond because lets face it my opinion is my opinion.(and my observations)
You put it on the internet, so I am free to respond
I understand it's your opinion, but discussion of opinions is the best way to find compromise and discern a merited arguement from simple bashing.
'Just because it is your opinion doesn't mean it's right'-- My Dad
I Know, I just had work :(
My Opinion is my opinion and its based on assumptions and some facts,
Not Every thing i say is accurate, it is only my opinion on the matter, Not the truth, nor is it completely false.
You raise excellent points, and prove me wrong a couple times (Sicarius had scouts at Black Reach for example) but I think a lot of this comes down to two different but equally viable opinions. Too bad everyone has one of those
RicBlasko wrote:And you brought up ROTC, well remember the two most dangerous things you will ever hear is an E1 saying "I learned this is Basic" and an O1 saying "I got a map!"
Trust me, everything I learned in JrROTC, ROTC, and Basic got tossed out the window. There is the right way, and the way you say it's done. Just remember as an Officer, if it's always by the book, then you will see a lot of "Sniper Check"
Officers are taught how it is done on paper, it's Chief that teaches you the right way to do it.
I've spoken to many a soldier. I understand that many things in ROTC are worthless. I could have told you that even without talking to soldiers who have been there and done that
Regardless, I still believe that a comparison to the codex is appropriate for the military. Sure, you have to improvise as you go but there is still a solid framework that decisions are built around. That's the codex. You have to have knowledge of something in order to improvise on it.
O1 map joke. Classic. There is a joke that goes something along the lines of "The most dangerous thing in the world is a second lieutenant with a map and a compass."
Asherian Command wrote:Blue- I hate the color it is a horrible contrasting color that is overly used in just about every single 'good guy' faction.
This one is all a matter of personal preference. There's nothing I can argue here. Other than the "good guy" faction thing perhaps. What are you basing this off of? Do you know the colors of Cobra from GI Joe?
Cobra's guns fired red, GI Joe Blue. Gnome and Juliet, red and blue...then there is Red Vs Blue. Most cartoons have some sort of Blue is Good, Red is Bad thing going...
And you brought up ROTC, well remember the two most dangerous things you will ever hear is an E1 saying "I learned this is Basic" and an O1 saying "I got a map!"
Trust me, everything I learned in JrROTC, ROTC, and Basic got tossed out the window. There is the right way, and the way you say it's done. Just remember as an Officer, if it's always by the book, then you will see a lot of "Sniper Check"
Officers are taught how it is done on paper, it's Chief that teaches you the right way to do it.
I am just really hoping that the rumors about the Ultramarines and Tau end up eventually becoming true. Now, before you bitch and moan about it, here me out.
First off, it is the Ultramarines that were listed in the rumor. The good ol' boys in blue. The ones who can do no harm. Heros of the Imperium that all other armies strive to be on par with. All of a sudden, they discover that the Emperor wanted them to protect the Tau, a Xenos race. The Imperium, on the other hand, wants to rid the galaxy of all Xenos, eventually, and thus are very bitchy about that sort of thing. (even though, I am sure, that the Imperium and the Tau could probably get along logistically.)
So you pretty much have the flawless chapter, put into a situation where they have to choose between their duty to the Imperium, and the Lords of Terra, and the Emperor himself. Suddenly, they go from boring as feth, flavorless marines, to a Chapter with a VERY big issue. How carefully do they tread this line?
jadebullet wrote:I am just really hoping that the rumors about the Ultramarines and Tau end up eventually becoming true. Now, before you bitch and moan about it, here me out.
First off, it is the Ultramarines that were listed in the rumor. The good ol' boys in blue. The ones who can do no harm. Heros of the Imperium that all other armies strive to be on par with. All of a sudden, they discover that the Emperor wanted them to protect the Tau, a Xenos race. The Imperium, on the other hand, wants to rid the galaxy of all Xenos, eventually, and thus are very bitchy about that sort of thing. (even though, I am sure, that the Imperium and the Tau could probably get along logistically.)
So you pretty much have the flawless chapter, put into a situation where they have to choose between their duty to the Imperium, and the Lords of Terra, and the Emperor himself. Suddenly, they go from boring as feth, flavorless marines, to a Chapter with a VERY big issue. How carefully do they tread this line?
You overestimate the intelligence of GW and their attention to detail. If Ultramarines are Tau Protectors, they'll end up like the Blood Angels or Space Wolves; they obviously violate the Imperium's laws, but apparently no one cares.
I'm not gonna quote you vaktathi because I'm on a phone and it's annoying. But honestly your argument just sounds like sour grapes. GW named the Ultramarines "the greatest". That's really where it starts and stops. Why complain about it? It just is what it is, and it doesn't make any other chapter suck by comparison. The Ultramarines aren't individually better, but the Chapter as a whole has been more successful, and more prolific. Some of it is from their unique position following the Heresy and Guilliman's superior administrative and logistical infrastructure compared to the other Legions.
And I'd like you to point out what Mat Ward added. I bet the majority of what you think predates Ward. Ward's a scapegoat.
Haven't read the whole thread, but I don't like Ultramarines much simply because of the way they're portrayed in the Codex (The ideal, everyone strives to be like them. IIRC there's even a line that says something along the lines of "there are divergent chapters and even though they can never be Ultramarines, they still strive to the same ideals), and I feel that the way the Space Marine Codex is written sort of downplays or even belittles other chapters.
With that said, I don't really give a crap and I couldn't possibly care less if someone really loves Ultramarines. Go nuts. Paint an entire chapter's worth of minis in Ultramarine colours, for all I care. I personally don't like them, but I don't care if you (general "you", not specifically you) do.
AlmightyWalrus wrote:Ultramarines do have a flaw. They're the paragon Chapter of the Codex Astartes, and they know it. Their hubris is their weakness. Case in point: the Imperial Navy was doing just fine hit-and-running Behemoth until Calgar decided that a frontal assault would be a good idea. Another example being the release of (a shard of these days?) the Nightbringer by Uriel Ventris.
Did you actually read Nightbringer? Ventris didn't release the shard, Kasimir de Valtos and his Dark Eldar compadres did.
I wholeheartedly support my Ultras. They have been with me since the beginning (early 2nd edition, for me), and I can't see how people rag on them so much with armies like the Blood Angels, Space Wolves and now the Grey Knights out there.
People call their color scheme drab and dumb because it's just blue, yet all the other mainstream chapters are a single color (aside from oddballs like Death Company, etc).
And if Ultras are "the stupid posterboy chapter" because of the bad OTT writing lately, then explain this:
I think it's safe to say that much of Ward's writing is questionable; I think the issue people take is that while the Grey Knights are OTT, and the Blood Angel/Necron team up is silly, it's... self-contained. It doesn't occur instead of or at the expense of others, where as Codex: Space Marines focuses almost solely on the Ultramarines, at the expense of the other Founding Loyalists (at least the ones who don't get their own codecies). I know that's the issue I take with it. The vanilla Marine Codex is basically the Ultramarine Codex with "honorable mentions" given to the other chapters. It's a very jarring change in tone from previous Codecies where (generally) no one chapter was held so highly above the others.
Yes, that is quite dumb, though I think it suffers more from the fact that the Necrons have gone from a mindless, consume the universe to feed the C'tan, to a much more fleshed out race, than anything else. Old Necrons, it is rediculously dumb. New Necrons, meh, it isn't that bad.
My main problem with the Ultramarines is this. I find their fluff boring, and think they need some sort of conflict to spice things up. (see my previous post.) I also think that they look REALLY bad on the table top, unless they are done right. I love when I see an Ultramarines army that looks REALLY good. It looks like it has been through hell and come out on top. The Blues are both rich, and subdued at the same time. Most of the time, though, it seems like they are trying to go for the 'eavy Metal idea of what the Utramarines should look like, which I don't like. The blue is too bright, and they just look really lame.
Hell, starting out in Spacemarine, I was kind of sad that I was playing as an Ultramarine, but after about five minutes, I actually enjoyed it. They looked cool, they acted really awesomely, and quite frankly, I loved every minute of it. Then I looked at the "Painting Space Marines" book again and remembered why I do not like the Ultramarines. Really, I find that book to be a giant waste of money unless you are doing Ultramarines, but even then, I dislike what they do to the Ultramarines. They are just too clean.
Fluff wise, they are also too clean. They need something that gives them a possibility to fall to chaos. DA have the schism, BA have the Rage and Thirst, Templars have their non codex organization and numbers, the rest of the codex factions have something that gives them flavor. The Ultramarines, just seem like tofu cubes. Flavorless. The need the seaweed, chives, and broth of flaws, mistakes, and distrust to turn them into the enjoyable miso soup that they could be. (yes, I am hungry, so what?)
In 2nd Edition it was called Codex: Ultramarines. It was changed to the more generic Codex: Space Marines in 3rd edition because new players were getting confused as to which codex was for "regular" Space Marines. But the painting guides have always been Ultramarines. The majority of Special Characters has always been Ultramarines. In 4th, nearly all of the art was Ultras, and the paint guides were called "Painting Ultramarines". When was this magical, imaginary time when the other chapters weren't "honorable mentions"? Codex: Space Marines has always been Codex: Ultramarines.
What remains to be asked is if it's okay for the Blood Angels, Dark Angels, Space Wolves, and Black Templars to get their own codex books, why are the Ultramarines faulted for this?
What remains to be asked is if it's okay for the Blood Angels, Dark Angels, Space Wolves, and Black Templars to get their own codex books, why are the Ultramarines faulted for this?
Blood Angels: Attempted Codex, but dealing with a major flaw. Also, tech kept from the Mechanicus.
Dark Angels: Non codex, use different tactics. Also, they are very secretive.
Space Wolves: Very non codex. Unable to have successor chapters. They have over 1k marines, but they are divided into 10 companies.
Black Templars: Completely ignore the codex. They have over 1k marines, and use a completely different organization.
The Ultramarines are faulted for this because most people prefer the other chapters with more fluff, such as the Ravenguard, the White Scars, the Salamanders. Then they pick up the codex, or a painting book like "how to paint space marines" and it is mainly about the Ultras, which are the most boring chapter.
You give the other chapters the green light for having their own codex books because they represent that chapter's style of fighting. Codex: Space Marines details the way of fighting of the Ultramarines. You could even say they wrote the book on it.
The Ultramarines fluff is just fine. In the voice of Arnold Schwarzenegger, "qweet whining". The book is Codex Ultramarines. If you decided to like one of the less prestigious chapters, you accept that they don't get as much attention. But stop blaming the Ultramarines for being the stars of theiw own book.
In 2nd Edition it was called Codex: Ultramarines. It was changed to the more generic Codex: Space Marines in 3rd edition because new players were getting confused as to which codex was for "regular" Space Marines. But the painting guides have always been Ultramarines. The majority of Special Characters has always been Ultramarines. In 4th, nearly all of the art was Ultras, and the paint guides were called "Painting Ultramarines". When was this magical, imaginary time when the other chapters weren't "honorable mentions"? Codex: Space Marines has always been Codex: Ultramarines.
What remains to be asked is if it's okay for the Blood Angels, Dark Angels, Space Wolves, and Black Templars to get their own codex books, why are the Ultramarines faulted for this?
Stupid bias. That's why, lol.
I don't have any of my Codexes here, but again, as I recall, while Ultramarines were fairly prominent in the 3rd edition codex (painting guides, multiple special characters, etc), their place in the fluff was not nearly as all-consuming. Granted, the third edition codex had far less fluff in general than other codecies, but I seem to recall maybe two bits that focused solely on Ultramarines and then four or five bits about various other Chapters. The painting guide and a significant number of photographs may have been of Ultramarines, but other Chapters were featured in many pictures. There was none of this "All Space Marines wants to be Ultramarines, but not all can be, and they all revere Roboute Guilliman." I admittedly don't remember the 4th edition codex very well, but it did have those customization rules so you could make heavily divergent Chapters.
If the Codex was called Codex: Ultramarines, then the intense focus on the Ultramarines would be justified, but as it is, it's Codex: Space Marines, but focuses almost exclusively on the Ultramarines. It's also the way it's presented; the fluff is written in such a way as to portray the Ultramarines as vastly superior to all other Chapters, even prominent and accomplished founding chapters like the Salamanders and the Imperial Fists.
This is all to say, while Ultramarines were prominent in the 3rd and 4th edition Codexes, it seems to have been cranked to 11 in the current one. It'd be perfectly OK for Ultramarines to have their own codex, but it should be called Codex: Ultramarines. In fact, they had that in 3rd edition to go along with the generic Space Marine Codex.
But really, I'm just playing devil's advocate. I don't care, never really cared. I played Minotaurs when I played Space Marines, and from 3rd edition, which is when I started 40K, up until the Badab War book recently, there was pretty much zero information published about them.
Veteran Sergeant wrote: In the voice of Arnold Schwarzenegger, "qweet whining". The book is Codex Ultramarines. If you decided to like one of the less prestigious chapters, you accept that they don't get as much attention. But stop blaming the Ultramarines for being the stars of theiw own book.
Seriously. Its people who go out of their way to hate other armies for perceived slights against their good taste that make me wish I had picked up the bass guitar instead of warhammer back in the day.
I told you why it isn't called Codex: Ultramarines anymore. You can accept this, or you can shake your little fists and scream to the skies for vengeance against imaginary injustice.
The book will still be, always have been, and always will be, about the Ultramarines first and foremost no matter how you feel about it, and it will still be silly to be upset about it.
Anyone Else reading this with Yahtze's voice? (Replace his name + astrophe s with my)
I still think the ultras need some flaws then they might be good.
Though right now they are sitting as king of Cliches and Have a bowl of cliches for breakfast, lunch and dinner. It makes draigo the Pimp of cliches.
Eh, I'm not "screaming to the skies for vengeance", nor am I upset. I just think it's kinda dumb, that's all. I'd like to see more fluff presented about the other chapters who don't get their own codex, but that's about it. I do think the extremely virulent Ultrahate is pretty funny, though.
What remains to be asked is if it's okay for the Blood Angels, Dark Angels, Space Wolves, and Black Templars to get their own codex books, why are the Ultramarines faulted for this?
Blood Angels: Attempted Codex, but dealing with a major flaw. Also, tech kept from the Mechanicus.
Dark Angels: Non codex, use different tactics. Also, they are very secretive.
Space Wolves: Very non codex. Unable to have successor chapters. They have over 1k marines, but they are divided into 10 companies.
Black Templars: Completely ignore the codex. They have over 1k marines, and use a completely different organization.
The Ultramarines are faulted for this because most people prefer the other chapters with more fluff, such as the Ravenguard, the White Scars, the Salamanders. Then they pick up the codex, or a painting book like "how to paint space marines" and it is mainly about the Ultras, which are the most boring chapter.
Hey chief, he was saying that each of those chapters received their very own Codex, whereas the Ultras actually do not have their own dedicated Codex.
As in a Codex like the one you buy at a store.
RatBot wrote:
If the Codex was called Codex: Ultramarines, then the intense focus on the Ultramarines would be justified, but as it is, it's Codex: Space Marines, but focuses almost exclusively on the Ultramarines. It's also the way it's presented; the fluff is written in such a way as to portray the Ultramarines as vastly superior to all other Chapters, even prominent and accomplished founding chapters like the Salamanders and the Imperial Fists.
Or you could note that Codex Ultramarines was turned -into- Codex Space Marines. Or the fact that the Ultramarines no longer have their own Codex, whereas Dark Angels, Blood Angels, Black Templar, Space Wolves, and Grey Knights do.
As he established, it -used- to be called Codex: Ultramarines and then they made it Codex Space Marines. In other words they deemphasized Ultramarines.
Veteran Sergeant wrote:I'm not gonna quote you vaktathi because I'm on a phone and it's annoying. But honestly your argument just sounds like sour grapes.
Well, good to know we're dismissing arguments out of hand for convenience sake and chalking it all up to sour grapes just for kicks and giggles then.
GW named the Ultramarines "the greatest". That's really where it starts and stops. Why complain about it?
Because it's based literally in "because they just are". That's bad fluff, and doesn't go over well. If that's the justification, fine, but realize it's bad and people are fully justified in calling it bad.
It just is what it is, and it doesn't make any other chapter suck by comparison.
If another is clearly the best, then yes, it does, because someone else is better, and if someone else is better, then, by definition, you suck by comparison.
Again, notice no other race has a defined "best", not only because it makes others look lesser by comparison, but because they don't *need* a "best".
The Ultramarines aren't individually better, but the Chapter as a whole has been more successful, and more prolific.
Define success? Prolific yes, but that just makes them prolific. The Cadian's are widely patterened by other worlds for training methods and equipment, but nobody notes them as clearly "the best" IG.
Some of it is from their unique position following the Heresy and Guilliman's superior administrative and logistical infrastructure compared to the other Legions.
Other Space Marine chapters weren't granted a mini-empire to rule as they saw fit to build such. Which again, contradicts their nature, in that the SM's were broken up specifically so they wouldn't have such power, but then the Ultramarines get their own little perfect empire (and somehow, despite being constantly campaigning super soldiers somehow master politics and economics to build a glorious perfect-realm...) with vast armies of normal human troops at their command (which was another reason for the Legion splintering and enforcing the Codex Astartes doctrines so they couldn't command vast armies of troops and have the anvil to back up their hammer), and apparently all other UM successors at the UM's disposal if necessary (which, again, if they needed to break the Legions up and institute the Codex organization...)
And I'd like you to point out what Mat Ward added. I bet the majority of what you think predates Ward. Ward's a scapegoat.
Off the top of my head? The sillyness of "these chapters can never be Ultramarines...", the BA's "striving to be worthy of Guilliman's legacy, but...", the gak about "each member of the Ultramarines Honor Guard has earnt more commendations and glories than whole companies of Space Marines from any other Chapter..."
Stuff like that. I don't see that written in 2E: Codex Ultramarines. In fact, Codex: Ultramarines from 2E only describes them as the exemplars of the Codex Astartes way of waging war and organizing a chapter (which, as you can see from above...they apparently aren't), whereas Mat Ward has other ideas
Don't make the mistake of thinking I'm butthurt my chapter isn't the best, I don't have a loyalist SM army to get butthurt over, and I have similar (if not greater) antipathy towards the Space Wolves for similar mary-sueness, bad writing, and contradictory nature/fluff. I just dislike bad fluff and see no reason why it shouldn't be called out as bad no matter where it comes from.
Well... in the eyes of the Imperium I'd think that the Ultramarines would be the "best".
Blood Angels have a failing geneseed, Space Wolves are untrustworthy mutants, Dark Angels are just untrustworthy, ect...
I can't wrap my head around the problem with Ultras.
They are the posterboys of GW. They are BRAND RECOGNITION!
Think of the kid who has never heard of GW, WHFB or 40k...
GW would rather have this kids mind overloaded with Ultramarines than anything else. They look cool, they have a "boys" color and have (arguably the larges model line of the loyalist power armour.
Face it. Ultramarines are the very definition of what it is to be an Astartes.
All the other chapters are Astartes with bells and whistles. Does that make them any less awesome? No.
Chapters [not descended from Guilliman's geneseed] are disciples who owe their genetic inheritance to another Primarch, but follow the Codex Astartes as keenly as their divergent heritage allows. While primarily composed of successor Chapters, this group also includes several Chapters of the First Founding - notably the Imperial Fists, White Scars and the Raven Guard. These chapters can never be Ultramarines, for their gene-seed is not that of Roboute Guilliman. Nevertheless, they will ever aspire to the standards and teachings of the great Primarch.
THAT'S where it gets bad. It says, black and white, that these first founding chapters "can never be Ultramarines... but aspire to the standards... of the great Primarch."
It literally says that all other Chapters believe they are inferior to Ultramarines, and indeed, are aware that they are. Apparently being worthy of being Rogal Dorn's or Corax's geneseed isn't enough. The Salamander's don't want to live up to Vulkan's standards, they want to live up to Guilliman's. Jaghatai Khan's not good enough for the White Scars, they look to Guilliman for guidance.
All the other chapters are Astartes with bells and whistles. Does that make them any less awesome? No.
The way the Space Marine Codex talks about them sure as hell makes it sound like they're less awesome.
Again, I don't hate the Ultramarines. I don't even hate Mat Ward. I just think he's not a very good writer and I dislike some of his fluff.
Chapters [not descended from Guilliman's geneseed] are disciples who owe their genetic inheritance to another Primarch, but follow the Codex Astartes as keenly as their divergent heritage allows. While primarily composed of successor Chapters, this group also includes several Chapters of the First Founding - notably the Imperial Fists, White Scars and the Raven Guard. These chapters can never be Ultramarines, for their gene-seed is not that of Roboute Guilliman. Nevertheless, they will ever aspire to the standards and teachings of the great Primarch.
THAT'S where it gets bad. It says, black and white, that these first founding chapters "can never be Ultramarines... but aspire to the standards... of the great Primarch."
It literally says that all other Chapters believe they are inferior to Ultramarines, and indeed, are aware that they are. Apparently being worthy of being Rogal Dorn's or Corax's geneseed isn't enough. The Salamander's don't want to live up to Vulkan's standards, they want to live up to Guilliman's. Jaghatai Khan's not good enough for the White Scars, they look to Guilliman for guidance.
All the other chapters are Astartes with bells and whistles. Does that make them any less awesome? No.
The way the Space Marine Codex talks about them sure as hell makes it sound like they're less awesome.
I think your misunderstanding the first quote.
If you are not made from ULTRAMARINE GENESEED you are not an Ultramarine.
"Standards and Teachings" is not the same as "sons".
These chapters can never be Ultramarines, for their gene-seed is not that of Roboute Guilliman. Nevertheless, they will ever aspire to the standards and teachings of the great Primarch.
Why should they aspire to "the standards and teachings" of another Chapter's Primarch? And even then, the Raven Guard and White Scars are doing a pretty lousy job of it, what with the former's love of stealth and psychological warfare and the latter's preponderance of bikes. Saying "these chapters can never be Ultramarines" is implicitly stating they're inferior, that they aspire to be Ultramarines but never will be, because apparently being an Imperial Fist or an Iron Hand isn't good enough. "These chapters can never be Ultramarines" implies that the Chapters will never be as good as Ultramarines. If it said "The members of these Chapters can never be Ultramarines" it would imply more that they can't be Ultramarines because they're already something else. But again, why would they aspire to live up to the standards of a different Primarch? I'm not saying that other Chapters have no respect for other Primarchs, but why would the Imperial Fists aspire to Guilliman's standards instead of Rogal Dorn's? How can anyone even pretend that non-Ultramarines aspire to Guilliman's standards when they all flout the Codex Astartes in one way or another? It implies that the wherever a Chapter diverges from the Ultramarines, it is considered inferior to Ultramarines. It basically says, indirectly, that the Raven Guard don't want to be sneaky commandos; after all, they aspire to the teachings of Roboute Guilliman! But, dammit, they just can't help themselves. Curse, you, Corax! Your geneseed has insured we can never be Ultramarines!
RatBot wrote:And I think you're missing the key part:
These chapters can never be Ultramarines, for their gene-seed is not that of Roboute Guilliman. Nevertheless, they will ever aspire to the standards and teachings of the great Primarch.
Why should they aspire to "the standards and teachings" of another Chapter's Primarch? And even then, the Raven Guard and White Scars are doing a pretty lousy job of it, what with the former's love of stealth and psychological warfare and the latter's preponderance of bikes. Saying "these chapters can never be Ultramarines" is implicitly stating they're inferior, that they aspire to be Ultramarines but never will be, because apparently being an Imperial Fist or an Iron Hand isn't good enough. "These chapters can never be Ultramarines" implies that the Chapters will never be as good as Ultramarines. If it said "The members of these Chapters can never be Ultramarines" it would imply more that they can't be Ultramarines because they're already something else. But again, why would they aspire to live up to the standards of a different Primarch? I'm not saying that other Chapters have no respect for other Primarchs, but why would the Imperial Fists aspire to Guilliman's standards instead of Rogal Dorn's? How can anyone even pretend that non-Ultramarines aspire to Guilliman's standards when they all flout the Codex Astartes in one way or another? It implies that the wherever a Chapter diverges from the Ultramarines, it is considered inferior to Ultramarines. It basically says, indirectly, that the Raven Guard don't want to be sneaky commandos; after all, they aspire to the teachings of Roboute Guilliman! But, dammit, they just can't help themselves. Curse, you, Corax! Your geneseed has insured we can never be Ultramarines!
These groves of oranges will never be apples, for they are not genetically apples. Nevertheless, they will ever aspire to the standards and teachings of great fruit.
The White Scars, unlike other Codex Chapters, maintain a much higher proportion of bike squadrons and Land Speeders, a reflection of the style of warfare favoured by the Chapter. They are also entirely lacking in Devastator Squads, as the slow, heavy weapons clash against the White Scar's method of battle. The Chapter also maintains relatively few battle tanks, which are often stripped-down versions in order to keep with the rest of the White Scars. Finally, the White Scars do not possess any Dreadnoughts since the thought of confining a warriors' spirit within a sarcophagus is abhorrent to them.
They eschew Codex Astartes organizational doctrine, which dictates that each battle company contain two Devastator Squads, and one of the reserve companies is supposed to be composed almost entirely of Devastators. How can it be said that they "aspire to the standards and teachings of" Guilliman when they ignore portions of it? They do follow the Codex.... sort of.
Either they're doing a lousy job of following Guilliman's teachings, or they don't care.
Since the Codex Astartes doesn't actually exist, we don't know what exactly it contains, so it's difficult to argue other points, but it's obvious that the White Scars disregard portions of it when it comes to organizing their Chapter.
However, it is expressly stated in the Space Marine Codex that they do aspire to his teachings, which is demonstrably false, and it is implied that being unable to follow those teachings makes them inferior.
AlmightyWalrus wrote:Ultramarines do have a flaw. They're the paragon Chapter of the Codex Astartes, and they know it. Their hubris is their weakness. Case in point: the Imperial Navy was doing just fine hit-and-running Behemoth until Calgar decided that a frontal assault would be a good idea. Another example being the release of (a shard of these days?) the Nightbringer by Uriel Ventris.
Did you actually read Nightbringer? Ventris didn't release the shard, Kasimir de Valtos and his Dark Eldar compadres did.
Which probably wouldn't have happened if the planet'd been Exterminatus'd.
This, its really just special snowflake syndrome. The ultramarines not having any dark secrets, any horrible flaws, and still being successful means they should be shunned.
They are generally the most general generalists in the galaxy. If you want special snowflake syndrome you look at the space wolves, who really should have been under exterminatus for all the bs they pull in all aspects of their life, spit in the face of the inqusition time and time again, basically worship the wolves, not to mention the fact that their geneseed is mutating to the point where there's "Wulfen" Half mad space marine Beastmen/Chaos that should horrify any chapter.
Sorry, maybe I should have been more clear. The people hating ultramarines suffer from special snowflake syndrome. Everyone has to have terrible flaws that they must overcome, and obvious ones at that. So wolves are cool, they turn into werewolves, fight the man, and do whatever the feth they want while being smelly. Ultramarines dont mutate, are the man, and follow the rules while bathing. The 2nd does not appeal nearly as much to someone with the mind of a 14 year old nerd. You can spot these types by the amount of /tg/ phrases they use. 'mary sue' and 'noblebright' come to mind.
Because everyone just loves stories of history and ficition about the Avarage Joe, who is healthy, gets everything his way, and goes on from High School to College then becomes CEO, without having to pay back his student loans and have any hardship.
I mean look at comic books, no one reads Batman or Spide-Man because they lost their family, they read them to see how well they are doing at work, and with their social lives.
UltraMarines are the rich kids in school, who never had to work for anything or THINK for themsevles. Sheep that think everyone else should follow in their footsteps, if not that person is weird and must be made fun of.
See, this is called projecting. I dont think the ultramarines are going out of their way to make fun of people who dont follow in their footsteps. I am pretty sure they don't actually exist. So what if they were the 'rich kids in school'. There are a lot of people who came from wealth who work their asses off. Why is the ultramarines recruits having it easier growing up than the space wolf or blood angels ones a bad thing? I can respect people who come from the bottom and work their way up. I can also respect people who came from greatness and do their best to maintain that. Thats what is kind of cool about the space marines. The diverse backgrounds and styles, all fighting towards one common goal. There is absolutely nothing wrong with coming from money and success, its all about what you do with that money.
Translating what I think he means in a non-confrontational way, is that the Ultramarines are hard to identify with as characters. The Blood Angels are interesting because they have the flaw in their gene seed which makes them go crazy. They are proper protagonists. I think thats why he mentioned comic books. Comic book characters tend to have something about themselves that audiences can identify with and feel for.
I think his opinion seems to be that the Ultramarines don't have and they appear to be the perfect guys with nothing wrong with them. The bully comment seems to be in relation to things like Gulliman dictating the Codex Astartes to everyone else.
Personally I've already said that I don't dislike them. I don't like them either, they just don't seem to be the marine chapter for me, thats all. I like the Blood Angels because of the fluff and I think its awesome and I also like Grey Knights because they are the Puritan Army who rival against Daemons. Their fluff just seems more of my bag.
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Veteran Sergeant wrote:I could post up my long explanation of why people hate the Ultramarines, but I don't feel like looking for it.
The Cliff's Notes are: The Ultramarines have been described as the best for twenty years. Some people are jealous that their favorite color of Space Marine wasn't chosen as the best, so they decide to hate on the Ultramarines. It has nothing to do with Mat Ward. People hated on the Ultramarines long before the 5E codex came out, and the C:SM fluff was no worse or OTT than other existing codex books. They hated them in the old days because they were "boring". More recently, people have invented this idea that they have "no flaws" or other weak, nonsense reasoning.
In the fluff they are supposed to be the best, but you just don't get that feeling when looking at all the chapters. For instance.
1) Blood Angels go crazy and can apparently wipe out anything in an assault when this happens. They also get special Sanguinary Guard all with Artificier armour.
2) Space Wolves are expert close combat quarters as well but also have some weird squad configurations for their long fangs for excellent shooting support. How many missile launchers do they have per squad? Not to mention the extras they can have with wolftooth necklace, etc.
3) Dark Angels have a whole army of termies, need I say more.
In my opinion, fluff wise they are really sold short. Told to be the best, but when you look (troops and options wise) at them they are fairly unspecial, if you know what I mean.
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Vaktathi wrote:
Veteran Sergeant wrote: Somebody had to be the best.
I see no reason for this statement to be true. What other race has a sub-faction specifically labelled as "the best"? None that I can think of. There is no "best" Imperial Guard, there is no "best" Ork Clan, there is no "best" Chaos god, there is no "best" Chaos Legion, there is no "best" Craftworld, etc.
Abaddon from the Black Legion would like to have a word with you.
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AegisGrimm wrote: People call their color scheme drab and dumb because it's just blue, yet all the other mainstream chapters are a single color (aside from oddballs like Death Company, etc).
And don't forget those Golden Boys The Sanguinary Guard
Not disagreeing with you. Yes, most chapters are usually just a single colour. I just thought I would point out that BA have a slightly bigger divergence than that.
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RatBot wrote:Eh, I'm not "screaming to the skies for vengeance", nor am I upset. I just think it's kinda dumb, that's all. I'd like to see more fluff presented about the other chapters who don't get their own codex, but that's about it. I do think the extremely virulent Ultrahate is pretty funny, though.
I thought you were pretty clear on that but apparently some people still want to accuse you of Ultra-hate.
Vak, your arguments still sound like sour grapes, and are mired in half truths, and (deliberate) omissions.
You say the Ultramarines have no fluff to back them up as the greatest, and yet they stopped two hive fleets. They are the sires of 60% of existing chapters because they've kept their gene seed pure. Their primarch wrote the book that has defined Space Marine warfare for ten thousand years. Some chapters don't use all of it, but most of them use at least some. It's only the organization and heraldry that some chapters ignore or modify. The teachings on strategy and tactics are the cornerstone of how Space Marines do battle, and nobody is better at it than the Ultramarines (and nobody worse about writting it that McNeill).
As far as if you're the best, everybody else sucks, that's just stupid. Not even going to sugarcoat it. Is the team that wins the championship in a sports league the best? For that season. Does everyone else suck? Certainly not. This isn't a 1 or 0 situation. If the Ultramarines are "the greatest", it doesn't, in any way, using any measure of logic or reasoning, make everyone else "the least". The fluff is very explicit about how great Space Marines are. The Ultramarines are just the top of that pile. Only somebody who was jealous that their favorite color of plastic toy soldiers hadn't been chosen would interpret it any other way. Seriously. It's just plain absurd to suggest that the Ultramarines being "the greatest of all Space Marine Chapters" equates to that "all other Space Marines are useless bags of camel dung".
And the Ultramarines weren't granted an empire. Read the fluff. It might help. Guilliman conquered Ultramar before the Emperor arrived. Those were his planets, not planets the emperor gave him, or ones he gave himself. In fact, since the modern fluff suggests Ultramar at one point was as large as 500 worlds, Guilliman surrendered up the vast majority of his empire, and only kept the handful of planets that were his by right.
This is something most haters seem to forget (or never realize in the first place). When the Emperor fould Guilliman, he was already an emperor in his own right. Certainly shouldn't the other primarchs be mad that Dorn was given Holy Terra, raised above all others? No, so why would they begrudge Guilliman for keeping what was his? They wouldn't, of course.
I think your misinterpretations of the "strive to live up to teachings" has been adequately covered already. It's been said that the Imperial Fists are paragons of the Codex. The Blood Angels embrace it, with adjustments made to account for their gene seed instabilities. If they embrace the Codex and its wisdom, then yes, they're striving to live up to the teachings of Guilliman. That doesn't, in any way, mean they don't venerate their own primarch, or even suggest they venerate Guilliman more. But, this brings us back to your "all or nothing" interpretation of "greatest", which didn't make any sense then, just as it doesn't make any sense in this case.
I like lots of chapters. I poke fun at the Black Templars from time to time because their battle tactics are silly and their methods ludicrous (no small unit leadership, throwing light armored rookies into the midst of heavy armored shock troops who would draw heavier fire than the rookies's armor can withstand, abandoning supporting arms like heavy weapons squads and artillery, just for starters). But I don't hate any chapters. Why? Because they're just plastic toy soldiers. So yeah, it doesn't make a bit of sense to me when people get all worked up over one chapter or another. The Ultramarines are one of the Big Four. That's the way it is, and the way it always has been.
Again, the only people allowed to complain are Crimson Fists fans with graying hair whose chapter was all but forgotten by 2nd Edition, lol.
Frankly, if it wasn't for the Ultramarines being such strict adherents to the Codex, the other divergent chapters wouldn't be special at all, because all their supposed 'differences' wouldn't be measured against anything as a standard.
Also, I don't hear any Flesh Tearers or other Blood Angels successor chapter players screaming that the Blood Angles Codex is all about Blood Angels, even though they use the same codex for their army.......
Veteran Sergeant wrote:Vak, your arguments still sound like sour grapes, and are mired in half truths, and (deliberate) omissions.
Call it whatever you want, I'm just calling it as I see it and providing examples where I find them.
You say the Ultramarines have no fluff to back them up as the greatest, and yet they stopped two hive fleets.
And other chapters have fought their share of glorious battles against powerful enemies as well.
They are the sires of 60% of existing chapters because they've kept their gene seed pure.
Being the largest Legion at the end of the heresy (due to having missed out on much of the fighting) had a large part of that. I don't recall the fluff on their geneseed off the top of my head and I don't have the book here at work.
Their primarch wrote the book that has defined Space Marine warfare for ten thousand years.
How does that matter to what they are now?
The teachings on strategy and tactics are the cornerstone of how Space Marines do battle, and nobody is better at it than the Ultramarines
So, by definition, other chapters are worse.
As far as if you're the best, everybody else sucks, that's just stupid. Not even going to sugarcoat it. Is the team that wins the championship in a sports league the best? For that season. Does everyone else suck?
Note the use of the words *By Comparison*. Relative to. Does it mean other suck in an absolute sense? No. Does it mean they are diminished in status however, by definition, since they are not *the best*.
We're also talking about a span of 10,000 years where the UM's have supposedly always been the best, not some fleeting thing or a "this season" type deal.
And the Ultramarines weren't granted an empire. Read the fluff. It might help. Guilliman conquered Ultramar before the Emperor arrived. Those were his planets, not planets the emperor gave him, or ones he gave himself. In fact, since the modern fluff suggests Ultramar at one point was as large as 500 worlds, Guilliman surrendered up the vast majority of his empire, and only kept the handful of planets that were his by right.
And he made all the other SM's give up their mini-empires and command of large numbers of troops, but kept his own empire and large numbers of troops and fleets.
This is something most haters seem to forget (or never realize in the first place). When the Emperor fould Guilliman, he was already an emperor in his own right. Certainly shouldn't the other primarchs be mad that Dorn was given Holy Terra, raised above all others? No, so why would they begrudge Guilliman for keeping what was his? They wouldn't, of course.
Again, irrelevant, as the other chapters had to divide themselves down and confine themselves largely to one world and give up command over IN/IG troops and equivalents. The UM's did not, despite forcing that on others.
I think your misinterpretations of the "strive to live up to teachings" has been adequately covered already. It's been said that the Imperial Fists are paragons of the Codex. The Blood Angels embrace it, with adjustments made to account for their gene seed instabilities. If they embrace the Codex and its wisdom, then yes, they're striving to live up to the teachings of Guilliman.
And missed what I was saying, in that that whole section makes the UM's out as definitively greater than other chapters with other chapters being unable to ever reach their status. That's bad fluff, that's "because I said so" stuff, and that's why people dislike them.
That doesn't, in any way, mean they don't venerate their own primarch, or even suggest they venerate Guilliman more.
Again, not what I was saying at all.
But, this brings us back to your "all or nothing" interpretation of "greatest", which didn't make any sense then, just as it doesn't make any sense in this case.
Because you aren't really getting the "by comparison" thing.
I'll note my response to the Mat Ward question of additions was unaddressed
I can't speak for other people... I can only speak for myself, but here are my reasons for disliking the Ultramarines:
Non-fluff reasons:
1. Before Relic came along, Ultramarines were the only Space Marines that anyone outside of the hobby ever really got to see. Wherever there was cross-pollination going on, it was always the Ultramarines. Now, of course, it's Ultramarines and Blood Ravens. Forge World is building a life-sized Rhino, or so I hear. What chapter did they paint it up as? Dark Angels? Space Wolves? Nope... Ultramarines. ALWAYS Ultramarines.
2. Ultramarines have been the definition of "vanilla" Space Marines since I started playing in 3rd Edition. As such, they've graced the cover of more codexes than *any other army in the game*.
3. I'm still bitter about 4th/5th/now 6th edition... Dark Angels were pretty awesome in 3rd Edition compared to normal Space Marines... not better, but just as good. Then the 4th Edition Space Marine codex came out and gave them (and specifically the Ultramarines) a bunch of new toys... toys that the Dark Angels didn't get. Then the 4th Edition Dark Angels codex came out... did the Dark Angels get new toys? Of course not. Jervis Johnson apparently decided that Marines had gotten a bit over the top and decided to tone them down with the Dark Angel Codex (which, of course, only affected the Dark Angels). By the time the 5th Edition Space Marine codex came out, the pendulum had swung back to super powerful codexes again, so the Space Marines got EVEN MORE cool toys that, again, the Dark Angels didn't get. So, for 3 editions, I've watched the Ultramarines be "better" than the Dark Angels simply because they got their codexes at a time when it was cool to have high powered codexes and we got our (one) codex at a time when it was cool to keep things from being too powerful.
Fluff reasons:
1. Guilleman was one of the primary supporters of the High Lords of Terra taking over the Imperium in the Emperor's semi-absence. He also decided to dictate to all the other Space Marine chapters how they should organize themselves, and used his influence with the High Lords of Terra to enforce it (and, also, the fact that his Ultramarines outnumbered the remaining loyalist chapters thanks to them showing up late to the fight at the end of the Horus Heresy) to enforce those rules on the other chapters. I think it's highly insulting to both the First Legion (Dark Angels) and the other First Founding chapters that the Ultramarines get to tell us what to do, or that they can use the Successor Chapter rule to essentially dilute the power of other chapters while keeping their own chapter strong (all 10 or so Ultramarines Successor chapters still report directly to Ultramar).
2. Ultramarines have what is, in my opinion, an undeserved reputation as the best tacticians in the Imperium. Lion El'Johnson had the "super tactician" reputation among the Primarchs. I'd even say that Alpharius was a better tactician than Guilleman. In fact... I can't think of anything particularly tactical that Guilleman did other than have his fleet show up after Horus had already been beaten so that his chapter would be mostly unscathed. Underhanded might be a better word for that though.
3. Ultramarines being Ultramarines because they're from Ultramar (and not because they're Ultra Marines) is as silly to me as Land Raiders being Land Raiders because they were raiding vehicles who's designs were discovered by some guy named Land (and not because they raid things on land).
2. Ultramarines have what is, in my opinion, an undeserved reputation as the best tacticians in the Imperium. Lion El'Johnson had the "super tactician" reputation among the Primarchs. I'd even say that Alpharius was a better tactician than Guilleman. In fact... I can't think of anything particularly tactical that Guilleman did other than have his fleet show up after Horus had already been beaten so that his chapter would be mostly unscathed. Underhanded might be a better word for that though.
Gully didn't "show up late", he was distracted by Horus, ambushed by Logar and then turnned back THE ENTIRE CHAOS ARMY into the Eye of Terror.
He then retook control of the galaxy (kinda) and gave the spoils to the humans.
If the Ultramarines and Iron Hands had shown up at Istavaan the heresy would have been over in days.
DeffDred wrote:
and then turnned back THE ENTIRE CHAOS ARMY into the Eye of Terror.
Only after the Traitor Legions had already been broken and fractured and no longer acting as a cohesive whole, with the entirety of the Imperium united behind him as pretty much the only Loyalist legion not either destroyed on Istvaan, crippled by internal strife, or savaged on Terra, save for the Space Wolves who were were tiny by comparison even before the Heresy. It's not like anyone else was in shape to take on the job of mopping up after having done the majority of the fighting at the peak of the Heresy.
If the Ultramarines and Iron Hands had shown up at Istavaan the heresy would have been over in days.
The Iron Hands were on Istvaan. Whether the Ultramarines presence would have resulted in victory over Horus in mere days or not is pure conjecture, especially given that they'd still have been outnumbered by the Traitor Legions.
Blackraine wrote:I can't speak for other people... I can only speak for myself, but here are my reasons for disliking the Ultramarines:
Non-fluff reasons: 1. Before Relic came along, Ultramarines were the only Space Marines that anyone outside of the hobby ever really got to see. Wherever there was cross-pollination going on, it was always the Ultramarines. Now, of course, it's Ultramarines and Blood Ravens. Forge World is building a life-sized Rhino, or so I hear. What chapter did they paint it up as? Dark Angels? Space Wolves? Nope... Ultramarines. ALWAYS Ultramarines. THQ did a Blood Raven Rhino
2. Ultramarines have been the definition of "vanilla" Space Marines since I started playing in 3rd Edition. As such, they've graced the cover of more codexes than *any other army in the game*. No Argument
3. I'm still bitter about 4th/5th/now 6th edition... Dark Angels were pretty awesome in 3rd Edition compared to normal Space Marines... not better, but just as good. Then the 4th Edition Space Marine codex came out and gave them (and specifically the Ultramarines) a bunch of new toys... toys that the Dark Angels didn't get. Then the 4th Edition Dark Angels codex came out... did the Dark Angels get new toys? Of course not. Jervis Johnson apparently decided that Marines had gotten a bit over the top and decided to tone them down with the Dark Angel Codex (which, of course, only affected the Dark Angels). By the time the 5th Edition Space Marine codex came out, the pendulum had swung back to super powerful codexes again, so the Space Marines got EVEN MORE cool toys that, again, the Dark Angels didn't get. So, for 3 editions, I've watched the Ultramarines be "better" than the Dark Angels simply because they got their codexes at a time when it was cool to have high powered codexes and we got our (one) codex at a time when it was cool to keep things from being too powerful. As a fellow DA player I hope Dark Angels get buffed, but I doubt they will be more powerful than the next SM codex
Fluff reasons: 1. Guilleman was one of the primary supporters of the High Lords of Terra taking over the Imperium in the Emperor's semi-absence. He also decided to dictate to all the other Space Marine chapters how they should organize themselves, and used his influence with the High Lords of Terra to enforce it (and, also, the fact that his Ultramarines outnumbered the remaining loyalist chapters thanks to them showing up late to the fight at the end of the Horus Heresy) to enforce those rules on the other chapters. I think it's highly insulting to both the First Legion (Dark Angels) and the other First Founding chapters that the Ultramarines get to tell us what to do, or that they can use the Successor Chapter rule to essentially dilute the power of other chapters while keeping their own chapter strong (all 10 or so Ultramarines Successor chapters still report directly to Ultramar). In all fairness both Dark Angels and Blood Angels do that as well, fluff supports Blood Angels supporting the parent chapter during a time of crisis. The Inner circle act in complete cohesion with the Dark Angels Chapter Master as leader, But still they are outnumbered by Ultramarine successors
2. Ultramarines have what is, in my opinion, an undeserved reputation as the best tacticians in the Imperium. Lion El'Johnson had the "super tactician" reputation among the Primarchs. I'd even say that Alpharius was a better tactician than Guilleman. In fact... I can't think of anything particularly tactical that Guilleman did other than have his fleet show up after Horus had already been beaten so that his chapter would be mostly unscathed. Underhanded might be a better word for that though. Lion had no issue sacrificing troops and ground(Source Angels of Darkness), something I am guessing Guilleman didn't like to do, and after the shattering loss of so many marines in all the Legions I could see where a thought process that involved losing less men and ground would become ideal for many
3. Ultramarines being Ultramarines because they're from Ultramar (and not because they're Ultra Marines) is as silly to me as Land Raiders being Land Raiders because they were raiding vehicles who's designs were discovered by some guy named Land (and not because they raid things on land). ...won't lie I am liking this argument. Night Lords got their name because they gained their lordship while at night...brilliant
DeffDred wrote:
and then turnned back THE ENTIRE CHAOS ARMY into the Eye of Terror.
Only after the Traitor Legions had already been broken and fractured and no longer acting as a cohesive whole, with the entirety of the Imperium united behind him as pretty much the only Loyalist legion not either destroyed on Istvaan, crippled by internal strife, or savaged on Terra, save for the Space Wolves who were were tiny by comparison even before the Heresy. It's not like anyone else was in shape to take on the job of mopping up after having done the majority of the fighting at the peak of the Heresy.
If the Ultramarines and Iron Hands had shown up at Istavaan the heresy would have been over in days.
The Iron Hands were on Istvaan. Whether the Ultramarines presence would have resulted in victory over Horus in mere days or not is pure conjecture, especially given that they'd still have been outnumbered by the Traitor Legions.
The Traitor Legions were not "broken", only their assault on Terra. There is plenty of fluff discribing the aftermath, what with all the thousands of world still in chaos hands.
The Iron Hands were on Istvaan but not at full strength. And Mannus rushed into things.
The Ultramarines would have resulted in victory. It was forseen. "Black and Cobalt rings around the blanck sanded world, containing the flames" and all that.
The Ultramarines outnumbered everyone except (maybe) the Word Bearers.
And don't forget Horus specifically scattered the Ultramarines along the eastern rim because he knew he could not defeat them.
DeffDred wrote:
The Traitor Legions were not "broken", only their assault on Terra. There is plenty of fluff discribing the aftermath, what with all the thousands of world still in chaos hands.
Yes, they still held a lot of territory, but they did not act as a cohesive whole after that and had taken savage casualties. The force that Horus led to near victory, that sundered the Imperium, was broken.
The Iron Hands were on Istvaan but not at full strength. And Mannus rushed into things.
True.
The Ultramarines would have resulted in victory. It was forseen. "Black and Cobalt rings around the blanck sanded world, containing the flames" and all that.
From one source (in fictional story arc with multiple contradictory fluff points and tellings, often intentionally), and who knows how long that would have taken, days or centuries.
The Ultramarines outnumbered everyone except (maybe) the Word Bearers.
Not disputing that the Ultramarines were largest Legion, only that between the openly traitorous and covertly traitorous legions the numbers question is less certain.
And don't forget Horus specifically scattered the Ultramarines along the eastern rim because he knew he could not defeat them.
Couldn't defeat the Ultramarines or couldn't defeat the Imperium with the Ultramarines full strength added to everyone else's? Very different things.
Most of this also seems to boil down not to the Ultramarines being the embodiment of tactical excellence, but the Ultramarines having weight of numbers.
Even the Word Bearers couldn't do it. Even after they had complete element of surprise!
And Gully went missing! And their ships were disabled!
Gully hops back onboard a ship, straps on a helmet, barks a few orders and the battle is won.
We can argue points in the fluff till the end of time.
There is more evidence in favor of the Ultramarines being the greatest than any other legion or chapter.
It's just a game. If you don't like Ultramarines thats fine. But don't go claiming that everything is false because your marines aren't awesome and blue.
Even the Word Bearers couldn't do it. Even after they had complete element of surprise!
And Gully went missing! And their ships were disabled!
Gully hops back onboard a ship, straps on a helmet, barks a few orders and the battle is won.
Haven't read that HH book yet admittedly so I can't comment too much, though from your description it sounds like a whole lot of "because I said so" plot armor
We can argue points in the fluff till the end of time.
There is more evidence in favor of the Ultramarines being the greatest than any other legion or chapter.
Which again, as above, boils largely down to "because I said so" plot armor, which, people often dislike, hence the hate for Ultramarines.
It's just a game. If you don't like Ultramarines thats fine. But don't go claiming that everything is false because your marines aren't awesome and blue.
I'm not claiming it's false, I'm pointing out issues with the fluff that I've seen or know of and why it's either ridiculous (and thus, why people dislike it) or why it's over-exaggerated given the extenuating circumstances. I also don't play a loyalist marine army of any stripe so I've really got no stake in butthurt from that perspective other than disliking poor quality writing.
I think Ultramarines are pretty cool. I like their fluff and pretty much everything else about them. I enjoyed all the Ultramarine books and wish their were more.
Honestly if someone actually took the time to paint something around hear i would have nothing but praise for their army no matter what chapter or faction.
Not that this helps the Ultramar camp, but let's get some details right.
By the most current fluff and BL, the UM ruled a 500 planet empire: called the 500 Worlds of Ultramar. After the Codex, most of these worlds were split up to sucessor chapters. Some (White Consuls, Black Consuls, Iron Snakes) where given more than one world to be stewards over. Many still send their captains and sergeants to Maccrage to train (we know this from the Word Bearer Novels), and often members of Calgar's massive Honour Guard travel the 500 worlds, acting as heralds and advisors to other Chapters and Forces.
By current fluff, well over 20 chapters have answered Calgar's calls for UM sucessors to fight along side him, and he has answered at least another 5's pleas for aid (clearly some tight bonds among the old Legion). According to the BRB, there should be at least 400! sucessors chapters to the UM.
Calgar does not preach a strict adhereance to the Codex (that's Cato, and considered who he is based after, he is an almost perfectly written character). In fact he added a chapter called 'Tyrannic War Veterans" and sees the Codex as a living breathing (editable) document.
Ardis, Ventris, and Agemman are all captains we know quite a bit about, and they are hardly arrogant, or unfeeling.
The Senate of Ultramar is a hotbed of arguements and debate (again, clearly not all "toe the line, strict Codex lovers), and only one Captain is portrayed as a rabid and strict codex supporter (Cato) and that's the point.
Bash on the UM all you want, but by the Throne, at least get your details right.
BTW: The entire scene between Cry-baby and RG in TFH, is one of the most epic in any book the BL has written (thanks ADB).
ULTRAMARINES ARE AWESOME!!!!!! They invented the freaking codex astartes! They are not smurfs! My top spess mahrine chapters are the following
1 Space Wolves (awesomeness incarnate)
2 Ultramarines
3 Raven Guard
4 Dark Angels
5 Imperial Fists
Courage and Honor, man!
Abaddon from the Black Legion would like to have a word with you.
I'm sure *he* would, but the Black Legion aren't held up as "the best" Legion by the codex, just the most...inclusive if you will
Well maybe not the best legion, which granted is what you said, but he is the chosen of Choas and has been granted favour from all four gods and his predecesor for this talent was Horus, who was also the primarch for The Black Legion, although they were called Lunur Wolves back in the day. Although its not explicably stated they are the best by use of words they sure hint at it within the fluff.
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AegisGrimm wrote:Also, I don't hear any Flesh Tearers or other Blood Angels successor chapter players screaming that the Blood Angles Codex is all about Blood Angels, even though they use the same codex for their army.......
Big difference, Flesh Tearers, Angels Sanguine, etc, etc are all successor chapters whoose gene seed come from Sanguinious. They used to be Blood Angels themselves before the Codex Astartes came about. For all intents and purposes they pretty much are Blood Angels.
However Salamanders, Raven Guard, etc, etc are all first founding chapters who have nothing to do with Ultramarines whatsoever. They were their own unique legions before the Horus Heresy occured.
a lot of people seem to get annoyed at the fact codex space marines has too much ultramine stuff in it, but it dose say in the codex that it is primarily to represent an ultramarines force but can be used for other codex chapters. if any ones bothered ill look up the page number when i get home
goundry wrote:a lot of people seem to get annoyed at the fact codex space marines has too much ultramine stuff in it, but it dose say in the codex that it is primarily to represent an ultramarines force but can be used for other codex chapters. if any ones bothered ill look up the page number when i get home
I think thats part of the problem though. A lot of players don't like the fact that their first founding chapter takes a back seat in the new codex when the codex was redone in 2008. They feel that they are taking more of a back seat in this codex than what they did in the previous codex from 2004.
I had a discussion with someone else in another thread who thought that Blood Angels should be rolled back into Codex: Space Marines with only Dante & Death Company in it. I told him if that happened I would quit. Another poster then questioned me over it and accused me of "rage quiting" . I had to explain to him that of course I would quit in that circumstance because half the stuff I bought would be invalidated by such a move, i.e. Baal Predators, Furioso Dreadnoughts, etc, etc. Anyway, my point is, we have people who want to re-roll chapters back into Codex Space Marines when some people consider Codex Space Marines isn't fully capable of representing the other chapters that it is supposed to cover as it is. The person who said this was basically suggesting that Blood Angels should take a back seat in the Space Marine codex, which of course isn't going to fly now considering all the stuff they have released for Blood Angels now.
I think what they need to do is just release a large Space Marine codex and just go into what each chapter should have or take. They can have a basic section that all chapters can have access to and then go through the individual chapters and what they get that is different. At this point its the only thing that is going to work.
No, nothing is going to work. This completely a lose lose situation for GW. If they role everything into the regular marine codex then people will be pissed their army was removed (it really wasn't but its just not in the same form as before). If they keep everything separated like now you have people pissed who think they don't all deserve their own codecies. Besides the fact that it is an injustice to pretty much all the other armies, having multiple codecies for marines is a pretty good business practice. So I can't fault them.
However, While I understand that having multiple codecies is good for sales, I would like all space wolves, blood angels, black Templar, and dark angels players to just acknowledge the fact that they are indeed spoiled and appreciate the fact that they have it better than most of the other army types. Because you do.
Frankly, I'd just like all the Codices to come out at the same time as a new edition does. I'm pretty sure people will still buy new models if they're released at a different time from the Codex for them.
I used to think that Ultramarines were kinda boring and rather ugly. No special animosity there, they just weren't my thing. However, 5th ed codex really did all it could to make me hate the little tossers. Exaltation of the awesomeness of the Ultramarines just went totally overboard, and it did it in a wy that mede other marines to look bad. Let's have an example, an acteal quote:
"Indeed, it is said that each member of the Ultramarines Honour Guard has earnt more commendations and glories in a lifetime's service than a whole company of Space Marines from any other Chapter..."
Let's ponder that for a moment. So each individua in UM Honour Guard has gotten more commendations in their lifetime of couple of centuries that entire Deathwing* in their service of ten millenia!
(* or Blood Angels 1st company, or Imperial Fists 1st company, or any company from any chapter.)
Anyone with a two working braincells can see how absurdly ludicrous claim that is, and how it tries to exalt Ultras beyond any reason and proportion over other Marines.
Of course, it gives me an mental imagine of Ultramarines being pompous asshats that give their warriors medals and commendations by a cheelbarrow, and then proceed to pat eachothers in the back and tell how awesome and excellent they all are.
Now, it is kinda unfair to fault Ultras for having Mat Ward's atrocious fluff inflicted upon them, but it is hard to ignore. I mean I used to actually like Grey Knights!
However, there's one thing about Ultramarines that I realised a while ago, that makes me actually like them more. It is their blatant hypocrisy. Their holy tome is the Codex Astartes, main point of which was to disperse the power of the Space marine Legions, so that no single individual would have too much power. While they keep pushing this doctrine to others, they themselves lord over a powerfull stellar empire, and have number of successor chapters in their beck and call.
Now, I'm not sure if this is intentional on GWs part, but in any case it exactly the kind of thing that is very fitting to the grimdark 40K universe, and helps to give the boyscout-like Ultras some much needed sinister undertones.
Ignatius wrote:No, nothing is going to work. This completely a lose lose situation for GW. If they role everything into the regular marine codex then people will be pissed their army was removed (it really wasn't but its just not in the same form as before). If they keep everything separated like now you have people pissed who think they don't all deserve their own codecies. Besides the fact that it is an injustice to pretty much all the other armies, having multiple codecies for marines is a pretty good business practice. So I can't fault them.
However, While I understand that having multiple codecies is good for sales, I would like all space wolves, blood angels, black Templar, and dark angels players to just acknowledge the fact that they are indeed spoiled and appreciate the fact that they have it better than most of the other army types. Because you do.
We do I love it and if thy rolled my codex in i would be very angry.
Look at Fantasy this isn't necessary what it does do though is allow them to sell a lot of the same kits to people which ease more than just sales.
Ignatius wrote:No, nothing is going to work. This completely a lose lose situation for GW.
Sorry, I wasn't really clear on what I meant. With that statement I was particularly talking about the Space Marine Chapters that are currently within the Space Marine Codex i.e. Salamanders, Raven Guard, Imperial Fists, White Scars, etc, etc. They need a section applicable to all those chapters and then have sections detailing the differences for each one.
If they role everything into the regular marine codex then people will be pissed their army was removed (it really wasn't but its just not in the same form as before).
Like I said. I would be really annoyed. Probably because it means most of the stuff I bought would become useless in gaming terms. If they could roll it back into the Space Marine codex but keep all the units and keep a big section for Blood Angels then perhaps I would be OK with that. However I am talking about a codex the size of the rulebook here pretty much, because all the other chapters would need to have a similar set-up, a large section for themselves with their own rules. I don't really know if that would be feasible to be honest.
If they keep everything separated like now you have people pissed who think they don't all deserve their own codecies. Besides the fact that it is an injustice to pretty much all the other armies, having multiple codecies for marines is a pretty good business practice. So I can't fault them.
They can be pissed all they like but there is no use moaning about it. Its already been done and its years in the making. Invalidating peoples units within the game is not an option for GW at this stage.
However, While I understand that having multiple codecies is good for sales, I would like all space wolves, blood angels, black Templar, and dark angels players to just acknowledge the fact that they are indeed spoiled and appreciate the fact that they have it better than most of the other army types. Because you do.
In what sense? When comparing to other chapters like Salamanders and White Scars? Or when comparing to other armies like Dark Eldar and Imperial Guard?
Ignatius wrote:No, nothing is going to work. This completely a lose lose situation for GW. If they role everything into the regular marine codex then people will be pissed their army was removed (it really wasn't but its just not in the same form as before). If they keep everything separated like now you have people pissed who think they don't all deserve their own codecies. Besides the fact that it is an injustice to pretty much all the other armies, having multiple codecies for marines is a pretty good business practice. So I can't fault them.
However, While I understand that having multiple codecies is good for sales, I would like all space wolves, blood angels, black Templar, and dark angels players to just acknowledge the fact that they are indeed spoiled and appreciate the fact that they have it better than most of the other army types. Because you do.
I play Dark Angels.....currently I do not feel lucky, most of the stuff in the C:SM have better prices, aside from my Deathwing, and I suppose to an extant Ravenwing.
EDIT: But when the new codex comes out I hope I will feel lucky.
Ignatius wrote:No, nothing is going to work. This completely a lose lose situation for GW.
Sorry, I wasn't really clear on what I meant. With that statement I was particularly talking about the Space Marine Chapters that are currently within the Space Marine Codex i.e. Salamanders, Raven Guard, Imperial Fists, White Scars, etc, etc. They need a section applicable to all those chapters and then have sections detailing the differences for each one.
No I know what you are saying and I agree with you.
DarthOvious wrote:
If they role everything into the regular marine codex then people will be pissed their army was removed (it really wasn't but its just not in the same form as before).
Like I said. I would be really annoyed. Probably because it means most of the stuff I bought would become useless in gaming terms. If they could roll it back into the Space Marine codex but keep all the units and keep a big section for Blood Angels then perhaps I would be OK with that. However I am talking about a codex the size of the rulebook here pretty much, because all the other chapters would need to have a similar set-up, a large section for themselves with their own rules. I don't really know if that would be feasible to be honest.
Do I think that there should be any codecies for marines other than C:SM? No. I don't really. But there are, and so you cannot take aways someones army. So you really can't go back and put everything into one codex. It's just not fair to those players. Those who play an Imperial Marine army other than a vanilla one may have bought their army and decided to get into the game solely as that army. You can't take it away suddenly. In a perfect world, every one of the origonal legions would have their own codex (along with others like Black Templar). This is impossible, so GW should focus on at least touching upon the first founders in the marine codex, while keeping the other four seperate (5 counting Grey Knights).
If they keep everything separated like now you have people pissed who think they don't all deserve their own codecies. Besides the fact that it is an injustice to pretty much all the other armies, having multiple codecies for marines is a pretty good business practice. So I can't fault them.
They can be pissed all they like but there is no use moaning about it. Its already been done and its years in the making. Invalidating peoples units within the game is not an option for GW at this stage.
Like I said above you can't suddenly take away armies. I agree with you. If GW didn't want this many marine codecies they shouldn't have made so many. This is a one way street.
DarthOvious wrote:
However, While I understand that having multiple codecies is good for sales, I would like all space wolves, blood angels, black Templar, and dark angels players to just acknowledge the fact that they are indeed spoiled and appreciate the fact that they have it better than most of the other army types. Because you do.
In what sense? When comparing to other chapters like Salamanders and White Scars? Or when comparing to other armies like Dark Eldar and Imperial Guard?
I simply mean that space marines have multiple codecies to choose from. You get to pick which one is your favorite and which flavor you want to play with. This is the only army type (Imperial Marines) that gets to do this. Sure you can paint your Guard different as use different models, but a Mordian Guardsman is a Cadian Guardsmen is a Catachan Guardsmen is a Valhallen Guardsmen etc. Even just a slight knowledge of the fluff will tell you that is in of itself a sin. I'd argue that there is more variation in the Imperial Guard than there is in the Space Marines (and I'd have a good arguement too, but lets not get into it). Yet there is one single codex for all these types. If I had a codex dedicated to the Mordian Iron Guard I don't think I would ever complain about anything ever again. This is true for most all armies.
All I am saying is that at least you get to have the flavor that you want. Some of us don't get that option.
Ignatius wrote:No, nothing is going to work. This completely a lose lose situation for GW.
Sorry, I wasn't really clear on what I meant. With that statement I was particularly talking about the Space Marine Chapters that are currently within the Space Marine Codex i.e. Salamanders, Raven Guard, Imperial Fists, White Scars, etc, etc. They need a section applicable to all those chapters and then have sections detailing the differences for each one.
No I know what you are saying and I agree with you.
DarthOvious wrote:
If they role everything into the regular marine codex then people will be pissed their army was removed (it really wasn't but its just not in the same form as before).
Like I said. I would be really annoyed. Probably because it means most of the stuff I bought would become useless in gaming terms. If they could roll it back into the Space Marine codex but keep all the units and keep a big section for Blood Angels then perhaps I would be OK with that. However I am talking about a codex the size of the rulebook here pretty much, because all the other chapters would need to have a similar set-up, a large section for themselves with their own rules. I don't really know if that would be feasible to be honest.
Do I think that there should be any codecies for marines other than C:SM? No. I don't really. But there are, and so you cannot take aways someones army. So you really can't go back and put everything into one codex. It's just not fair to those players. Those who play an Imperial Marine army other than a vanilla one may have bought their army and decided to get into the game solely as that army. You can't take it away suddenly. In a perfect world, every one of the origonal legions would have their own codex (along with others like Black Templar). This is impossible, so GW should focus on at least touching upon the first founders in the marine codex, while keeping the other four seperate (5 counting Grey Knights).
If they keep everything separated like now you have people pissed who think they don't all deserve their own codecies. Besides the fact that it is an injustice to pretty much all the other armies, having multiple codecies for marines is a pretty good business practice. So I can't fault them.
They can be pissed all they like but there is no use moaning about it. Its already been done and its years in the making. Invalidating peoples units within the game is not an option for GW at this stage.
Like I said above you can't suddenly take away armies. I agree with you. If GW didn't want this many marine codecies they shouldn't have made so many. This is a one way street.
DarthOvious wrote:
However, While I understand that having multiple codecies is good for sales, I would like all space wolves, blood angels, black Templar, and dark angels players to just acknowledge the fact that they are indeed spoiled and appreciate the fact that they have it better than most of the other army types. Because you do.
In what sense? When comparing to other chapters like Salamanders and White Scars? Or when comparing to other armies like Dark Eldar and Imperial Guard?
I simply mean that space marines have multiple codecies to choose from. You get to pick which one is your favorite and which flavor you want to play with. This is the only army type (Imperial Marines) that gets to do this. Sure you can paint your Guard different as use different models, but a Mordian Guardsman is a Cadian Guardsmen is a Catachan Guardsmen is a Valhallen Guardsmen etc. Even just a slight knowledge of the fluff will tell you that is in of itself a sin. I'd argue that there is more variation in the Imperial Guard than there is in the Space Marines (and I'd have a good arguement too, but lets not get into it). Yet there is one single codex for all these types. If I had a codex dedicated to the Mordian Iron Guard I don't think I would ever complain about anything ever again. This is true for most all armies.
All I am saying is that at least you get to have the flavor that you want. Some of us don't get that option.
Completely QFT, the Imperial Guard part you have a complete point especially when looking at forgeworld stuff (e.g. DKoK). Edit: Apparently Dakka went special on the quote system
Ignatius wrote:
No I know what you are saying and I agree with you.
OK.
Do I think that there should be any codecies for marines other than C:SM? No. I don't really. But there are, and so you cannot take aways someones army. So you really can't go back and put everything into one codex. It's just not fair to those players. Those who play an Imperial Marine army other than a vanilla one may have bought their army and decided to get into the game solely as that army. You can't take it away suddenly. In a perfect world, every one of the origonal legions would have their own codex (along with others like Black Templar). This is impossible, so GW should focus on at least touching upon the first founders in the marine codex, while keeping the other four seperate (5 counting Grey Knights).
Agreed
Like I said above you can't suddenly take away armies. I agree with you. If GW didn't want this many marine codecies they shouldn't have made so many. This is a one way street.
Agreed
I simply mean that space marines have multiple codecies to choose from. You get to pick which one is your favorite and which flavor you want to play with. This is the only army type (Imperial Marines) that gets to do this. Sure you can paint your Guard different as use different models, but a Mordian Guardsman is a Cadian Guardsmen is a Catachan Guardsmen is a Valhallen Guardsmen etc. Even just a slight knowledge of the fluff will tell you that is in of itself a sin. I'd argue that there is more variation in the Imperial Guard than there is in the Space Marines (and I'd have a good arguement too, but lets not get into it). Yet there is one single codex for all these types. If I had a codex dedicated to the Mordian Iron Guard I don't think I would ever complain about anything ever again. This is true for most all armies.
All I am saying is that at least you get to have the flavor that you want. Some of us don't get that option.
I understand and in a sense I am lucky. My choice of Blood Angels involved me walking into a store back in 3rd edition and asking an employee on help with the armies. When I started playing it was with a group of friends and we had been playing a different game before that which got cancelled essentially and the decision was made that we would switch to 40k. The employee at GW asked me what kind of army I wanted (playing style) and I told him close combat. He suggested Blood Angels to me. I bought the codex and then I started collecting Blood Angels. Now on one hand it could be said that if Blood Angels weren't available at that time I could have chosen another army. However I fell in love with the Blood Angels in a way that I wouldn't with any other army. Their fluuf was just amazing in my eyes.
For a long time Blood Angels remained my only army for 40k. Meanwhile, during the same time, for Fantasy I had bought 3 different armies, all of them I love fluffwise. Its only been recently that I have started collecting Grey Knights and thats mostly because I love the models and think they look awesome. I also love the way they play, not in a cheese sense but just for the playability sense of them. I just love the look of two force falcions on a Grey Knight in power armour and the painting scheme I have for them I think is brilliant, incredibly simple but I love it. I just paint them with a black basecoat and then use Necron Compound and dry brush over them. Like I said, incredibly simple but I think its such a good look for them.
I'd vastly prefer one unified, flexible Marine Codex that would allow creation of different kind of marine armies. I think it would be perfectly feasible too, except perhaps from the marketing perspective. Blood Angels and Dark Angels are pretty much codex chapters anyway, and there is no more difference between them and Ultras than there is between, say, White Scars and Ultras. Space Wolves might be a bit trickier, as they diverge more.
I simply mean that space marines have multiple codecies to choose from. You get to pick which one is your favorite and which flavor you want to play with. This is the only army type (Imperial Marines) that gets to do this. Sure you can paint your Guard different as use different models, but a Mordian Guardsman is a Cadian Guardsmen is a Catachan Guardsmen is a Valhallen Guardsmen etc. Even just a slight knowledge of the fluff will tell you that is in of itself a sin. I'd argue that there is more variation in the Imperial Guard than there is in the Space Marines (and I'd have a good arguement too, but lets not get into it). Yet there is one single codex for all these types. If I had a codex dedicated to the Mordian Iron Guard I don't think I would ever complain about anything ever again. This is true for most all armies.
All I am saying is that at least you get to have the flavor that you want. Some of us don't get that option.
To play devil's advocate, if you are into WWI, WWII, Vietnam-area-styled soldiers, you have gazillions of games out there. From fairly true historical (FoW perhaps being the most reknowned) to the wyrd (Dust Warfare) to approximately ten million WWII table-top simulations.
If you want to play Space Marines, you are essentially stuck with 40K.
Swiftblade wrote:However, Garahm McNeil wrote some pretty good Ultramarine books that depict the Ultramarines as much more human and likable characters. If you ever want to defend the Ultramarines, read those books.
QFT. I'm halfway through his Ultramarines series, and it's pretty fething awesome.
OT - They're popular to hate because they're supposed to be "perfect". That's really the only reason for it.
I simply mean that space marines have multiple codecies to choose from. You get to pick which one is your favorite and which flavor you want to play with. This is the only army type (Imperial Marines) that gets to do this. Sure you can paint your Guard different as use different models, but a Mordian Guardsman is a Cadian Guardsmen is a Catachan Guardsmen is a Valhallen Guardsmen etc. Even just a slight knowledge of the fluff will tell you that is in of itself a sin. I'd argue that there is more variation in the Imperial Guard than there is in the Space Marines (and I'd have a good arguement too, but lets not get into it). Yet there is one single codex for all these types. If I had a codex dedicated to the Mordian Iron Guard I don't think I would ever complain about anything ever again. This is true for most all armies.
All I am saying is that at least you get to have the flavor that you want. Some of us don't get that option.
To play devil's advocate, if you are into WWI, WWII, Vietnam-area-styled soldiers, you have gazillions of games out there. From fairly true historical (FoW perhaps being the most reknowned) to the wyrd (Dust Warfare) to approximately ten million WWII table-top simulations.
If you want to play Space Marines, you are essentially stuck with 40K.
I am a huge Military History buff. I also love 40k. So I play historical armies in 40k
No but seriously I like to play with those kinds of armies in a 40k setting. It looses some of its meaning to me if it was in a historical context (perplexing I know) as opposed to humanity's survival mumbo jumbo.
I get it though. Beggers can't be choosers. I'm not arguing for more Imperial Guard codecies, I'm just throwing points into the discussion of multiple codecies.
Crimson wrote:I'd vastly prefer one unified, flexible Marine Codex that would allow creation of different kind of marine armies. I think it would be perfectly feasible too, except perhaps from the marketing perspective. Blood Angels and Dark Angels are pretty much codex chapters anyway, and there is no more difference between them and Ultras than there is between, say, White Scars and Ultras. Space Wolves might be a bit trickier, as they diverge more.
As long as everything was still there then I wouldn't mind. So the following would need to be retained.
I hate the Ultramarines. Bloody poster boys with a fleshed out background. Why do they have to be decsended from the Primarch who manned up and decided to over haul the Imperium, saving it in the process? I mean why should they get the glory and fleshed ot bakground over all the other chapters who don't do as much. Why should they get to have an entire Space Marine codex based around them, just because they were the first chapter to embrace the new doctrine? Do people complain about BA being the poster boys for C:BA, even though it can be used for BA sucsessors?
Sir Samuel Buca wrote:I hate the Ultramarines. Bloody poster boys with a fleshed out background. Why do they have to be decsended from the Primarch who manned up and decided to over haul the Imperium, saving it in the process?
So are half the chapters in existence, why is the original gutted chapter still so much better than all the others (including those that split from the original legion and were initially led by former Legion captains and composed of Legion marines) when they should just be the same dudes with a different name?
I mean why should they get the glory and fleshed ot bakground over all the other chapters who don't do as much.
Do the Ultramarines *really* do so much more, or are their exploits just featured more?
Why should they get to have an entire Space Marine codex based around them, just because they were the first chapter to embrace the new doctrine?
Indeed, why does being first matter when we're talking about a span of a couple years in a game that takes place 10,000 years (twice current recorded human history) later
Do people complain about BA being the poster boys for C:BA, even though it can be used for BA sucsessors?
Usually because they wonder by the BA's aren't just folded into C:SM as they share 80%+ of all their units, statlines, vehicles, wargear, etc.
Crimson wrote:I'd vastly prefer one unified, flexible Marine Codex that would allow creation of different kind of marine armies. I think it would be perfectly feasible too, except perhaps from the marketing perspective. Blood Angels and Dark Angels are pretty much codex chapters anyway, and there is no more difference between them and Ultras than there is between, say, White Scars and Ultras. Space Wolves might be a bit trickier, as they diverge more.
As long as everything was still there then I wouldn't mind. So the following would need to be retained.
5) Stormraven (In fact, other marines chapters would probably get access to this, so they could stick it in the joint section of the codex).
6) Baal Predators
7) Sanguinary Priests
8) Fluff section
I might have missed a couple of things since this is off the top of my head, but as long as they were there then I wouldn't be too annoyed.
You missed alternative FOC placement for certain units, but overall I reckon that you could fit that on two or three pages. Not a huge amount of room for fluff, of course, but spread the fluff more evenly among the chapters in the core fluff section, and you should be OK.
As I posted in one of the "why does everyone hate ultra's" threads from way back.
I dislike ultramarines because they were complete and utter *bleeps* to my favorite legion -> Alpha legion, with Guilleman constantly saying to alpharius "your legion sucks because you haven't got as many victories as my legion" which is not fair because the alpha legion had only been prodding buttock for a fraction of the time, even though Alpharius was the one who managed to halt Horus' armarda, in small 1/2 man fighters held together by duct tape, then get onto horus' bridge-where Horus has realisation etc etc- a feat which I would have liked to see Guilleman do.
Crimson wrote:IHowever, there's one thing about Ultramarines that I realised a while ago, that makes me actually like them more. It is their blatant hypocrisy. Their holy tome is the Codex Astartes, main point of which was to disperse the power of the Space marine Legions, so that no single individual would have too much power. While they keep pushing this doctrine to others, they themselves lord over a powerfull stellar empire, and have number of successor chapters in their beck and call.
Now, I'm not sure if this is intentional on GWs part, but in any case it exactly the kind of thing that is very fitting to the grimdark 40K universe, and helps to give the boyscout-like Ultras some much needed sinister undertones.
Thank-you! Someone gets it. It has to be intentional, btw, as its been around awhile, its been part and parcel to the Ultras since 2nd edition, and Abnett, Reynolds, and McNeil are seen purposely writing/alluding to it in their novels. Its the freak'n Roman Republic folks: two faceds, hypocritical, petty, brutal, and selfish... yet when it needs to be: noble, brave, patriotic, and awesome in its pomp and power.
Crimson wrote:IHowever, there's one thing about Ultramarines that I realised a while ago, that makes me actually like them more. It is their blatant hypocrisy. Their holy tome is the Codex Astartes, main point of which was to disperse the power of the Space marine Legions, so that no single individual would have too much power. While they keep pushing this doctrine to others, they themselves lord over a powerfull stellar empire, and have number of successor chapters in their beck and call.
Now, I'm not sure if this is intentional on GWs part, but in any case it exactly the kind of thing that is very fitting to the grimdark 40K universe, and helps to give the boyscout-like Ultras some much needed sinister undertones.
Thank-you! Someone gets it. It has to be intentional, btw, as its been around awhile, its been part and parcel to the Ultras since 2nd edition, and Abnett, Reynolds, and McNeil are seen purposely writing/alluding to it in their novels. Its the freak'n Roman Republic folks: two faceds, hypocritical, petty, brutal, and selfish... yet when it needs to be: noble, brave, patriotic, and awesome in its pomp and power.
The only issue is that UM's are not the only ones who do this, Dark Angels and The Unforgiven act very coordinated (IIRC all you Unforgiven chapter masters are part of the Inner Circle, led by the Chapter Master of the Dark Angels), Blood angels also come to each others aid in times of need. Truthfully it would not surprise me if all your first founding chapters do this with their descendants.
Wardragoon wrote:
The only issue is that UM's are not the only ones who do this, Dark Angels and The Unforgiven act very coordinated (IIRC all you Unforgiven chapter masters are part of the Inner Circle, led by the Chapter Master of the Dark Angels), Blood angels also come to each others aid in times of need. Truthfully it would not surprise me if all your first founding chapters do this with their descendants.
Yes, but those other chapters don't always go on how awesome idea the Codex Astartes was, so there really is no hypocrisy on their part. (Nor they have stellar empires of their own either)
Main purpose of the Codex was to limit the power any single individual has. Master of the Ultramarines is one of the most influental people in the Imperium, and wields temporal power way beyond average Chapter Master, arguably more than any other Chapter Master infact. This is hilarious.
Wardragoon wrote:
The only issue is that UM's are not the only ones who do this, Dark Angels and The Unforgiven act very coordinated (IIRC all you Unforgiven chapter masters are part of the Inner Circle, led by the Chapter Master of the Dark Angels), Blood angels also come to each others aid in times of need. Truthfully it would not surprise me if all your first founding chapters do this with their descendants.
Yes, but those other chapters don't always go on how awesome idea the Codex Astartes was, so there really is no hypocrisy on their part. (Nor they have stellar empires of their own either)
Main purpose of the Codex was to limit the power any single individual has. Master of the Ultramarines is one of the most influental people in the Imperium, and wields temporal power way beyond average Chapter Master, arguably more than any other Chapter Master infact. This is hilarious.
Guilliman just made sure that without dealing with the High Lords of Terra, the UM would rule the Eastern side of the Imperium by proxy and have prestige equal to (or maybe even beyond) a High Lord without all the Byzantine politics. Then on top of that, the Codex puts a glass ceiling on all other Chapters that only the UM (which get to grandfather in their insane levels of influence) can bypass, while no other first founding Chapter can ever ascend in power again. (DA and BA could if the first wasn't so distracted with their internal intrigue and wild-goose chase and the later wasn't fighting off inquisitoral probes into their quasi-insanity).
If you wonder where Guilliman's genius was, it wasn't battles, it was the big picture and the long term planning. Even Horus is easily eclipsed by Guilliman's foresight into how to gaurantee power for millenium to come. The Word Beares see themselves as apostles of the Book of Faith, while UM are the Book or Order (cool contrast there), and the Alpha Legion are the masters of the hidden hand, while the UM are masters of the hidden powerbase (one covert, one rather overt... yet another cool contrast there) ...yeah seems pretty cookie cutter and boring, or not.
A slight caveat here. GW doesn't tend to be so subtle in their framing of factions. A lot of this gives the Ultramarines a bit of a less "shining boy" edge and makes them a bit more interesting, but a lot of this is interpretation, and GW typically spells out pretty clearly how they intend their factions to be viewed.
Sir Samuel Buca wrote:I hate the Ultramarines. Bloody poster boys with a fleshed out background. Why do they have to be decsended from the Primarch who manned up and decided to over haul the Imperium, saving it in the process? I mean why should they get the glory and fleshed ot bakground over all the other chapters who don't do as much. Why should they get to have an entire Space Marine codex based around them, just because they were the first chapter to embrace the new doctrine? Do people complain about BA being the poster boys for C:BA, even though it can be used for BA sucsessors?
I think it would have been better if the fluff said this was decided amonst all the chapters rather than "Because Gullieman said so".
Automatically Appended Next Post:
htj wrote:
DarthOvious wrote:
Crimson wrote:I'd vastly prefer one unified, flexible Marine Codex that would allow creation of different kind of marine armies. I think it would be perfectly feasible too, except perhaps from the marketing perspective. Blood Angels and Dark Angels are pretty much codex chapters anyway, and there is no more difference between them and Ultras than there is between, say, White Scars and Ultras. Space Wolves might be a bit trickier, as they diverge more.
As long as everything was still there then I wouldn't mind. So the following would need to be retained.
5) Stormraven (In fact, other marines chapters would probably get access to this, so they could stick it in the joint section of the codex).
6) Baal Predators
7) Sanguinary Priests
8) Fluff section
I might have missed a couple of things since this is off the top of my head, but as long as they were there then I wouldn't be too annoyed.
You missed alternative FOC placement for certain units, but overall I reckon that you could fit that on two or three pages. Not a huge amount of room for fluff, of course, but spread the fluff more evenly among the chapters in the core fluff section, and you should be OK.
Well I did forget about the FOC, yes. It would take 3 pages to list the units above into the army list section with costs/options, yes, but lets not also forget the fluff bits earlier on the codex that also list the rules. So that is half a page, perhaps even a whole page for each unit above. For instance under The Sanguinary Guard entry it tells you waht they are equpied with but also what effect Death Masks have and also tells you a bit about the unit. The entry later basically lists the cost and the upgrade options/costs but it doesn't tell what specific equipment that get actually does per the rules.
To be honest I really do think that in order to do it all justice, a combined codex would need to be quite large. It would probably take them a heck of a long time to rules test as well since they would need to play test every chapter listed and I'm thinking that all the first foundings would need to be represented.
Sir Samuel Buca wrote:I hate the Ultramarines. Bloody poster boys with a fleshed out background. Why do they have to be decsended from the Primarch who manned up and decided to over haul the Imperium, saving it in the process? I mean why should they get the glory and fleshed ot bakground over all the other chapters who don't do as much. Why should they get to have an entire Space Marine codex based around them, just because they were the first chapter to embrace the new doctrine? Do people complain about BA being the poster boys for C:BA, even though it can be used for BA sucsessors?
I think it would have been better if the fluff said this was decided amonst all the chapters rather than "Because Gullieman said so".
That honestly would make me perfectly fine with the codex astartes. Corax, Dorn, Guillieman, and the other living primarchs all meet to decide what to do with the Imperium to ensure its survival and prevent another civil war. Despite some not wanting to divide their legions, eventually they decide that it is the only thing that can be done to prevent another Horus heresy. Granted I still wouldn't like the actual execution of the codex astartes (a very low limit to the size of each chapter, no centralized control, no limiting their political influence or mini empires) but at least I could support how it was implemented instead of Guillieman saying "I have the biggest legion so I say what goes, and I say that everyone break up their legions, including the legions that have been crippled at Istvaan like the Raven Guard and the leaderless legions like the Blood Angels."
DarthOvious wrote:
To be honest I really do think that in order to do it all justice, a combined codex would need to be quite large. It would probably take them a heck of a long time to rules test as well since they would need to play test every chapter listed and I'm thinking that all the first foundings would need to be represented.
Eh, Sanguinary Guard are just Honour Guard with jump packs. You can have few lines about them in the generic Honour Guard description.
Most of this stuff could be done as doctrines available to anyone, instead of chapter specific stuff. For example choosing Assault doctrine for your army would give you access to jump packs for your Honour Guard and make Assault Marines troops.
This way the book could be used to build many different sorts of chapters, Blood Angels included.
Crimson wrote:
Eh, Sanguinary Guard are just Honour Guard with jump packs. You can have few lines about them in the generic Honour Guard description.
Eh, do you mean like Bllod Angels Honour Guard or Space Marines Honour Guard? Do Space Marines Honour Guard get artificier armour? I'm not sure, but I know for sure that they can't get Death Masks or Glaive Encarmines.
Most of this stuff could be done as doctrines available to anyone, instead of chapter specific stuff. For example choosing Assault doctrine for your army would give you access to jump packs for your Honour Guard and make Assault Marines troops.
?????? I didn't even mention the whole assault marines being troops thing. Also I don't think that Sanguinary Guard are like Honour Guard in any sense. Yes, Blood Angels Honour Guard is like Space Marines Honour Guard with the addition being they can have jump packs, but Sanguinary Guard are completely different. As far as I know Space Marine Honour Guard don't get 2+ artificier armour saves or Master Crafted Power weapons for each man as standard.
This way the book could be used to build many different sorts of chapters, Blood Angels included.
And what about the other things I mentioned? Death Company Dreadnoughts? Death Company?, Furiosos?, Sanguinary Priests?, Baal Predators, etc, etc.
It's not as easy as you're trying to make out. You seem to think we can just outright combine everything and then just have a couple of sentences to say this and that.
DarthOvious wrote:
Eh, do you mean like Bllod Angels Honour Guard or Space Marines Honour Guard? Do Space Marines Honour Guard get artificier armour? I'm not sure, but I know for sure that they can't get Death Masks or Glaive Encarmines.
?????? I didn't even mention the whole assault marines being troops thing. Also I don't think that Sanguinary Guard are like Honour Guard in any sense. Yes, Blood Angels Honour Guard is like Space Marines Honour Guard with the addition being they can have jump packs, but Sanguinary Guard are completely different. As far as I know Space Marine Honour Guard don't get 2+ artificier armour saves or Master Crafted Power weapons for each man as standard.
Space Marine HG have artificer armour and can have relic blades. Give Blood Angels an option to give their HG death masks and jump packs for +X points and your Sanguinary Guard is done.
Ond no, there is absolutely no need to have different rules for Relic Blades, Frost Blades, Glaives Encarmine etc. Just give one entry* for your Space Marine über power weapon and then everyone can get that.
*(well, you probably should have different entries for Relic Axes, Swords etc now.)
And what about the other things I mentioned? Death Company Dreadnoughts? Death Company?, Furiosos?, Sanguinary Priests?, Baal Predators, etc, etc.
Death Company definitely should have their own entry, they have too many extra rules and options to be upgraded assault marines. But thing is, currently BA codex is like SM codex + more. This should not be the case. Furiosos* and independent apotecharies should be available to everyone. Maybe Baal predators too. And some stuff just should not exist, apotecharies affecting every squad within 6"** or half an army composed of dreadnoughts are some of those things. In any case, no option should be removed in a way that it would render existing models unusable.
* (Or if we have doctrines, at least assault doctrine chapters should get Furiosos.)
** (maybe give BA apotecharies an ability to give the squad they've joined furious charge for +X points.)
It's not as easy as you're trying to make out. You seem to think we can just outright combine everything and then just have a couple of sentences to say this and that.
Most of the BA units are just copypasted SM units, or SM units with few extra options. But you're right that it would require a much bigger book than current standard codices. I'm imagining a big hardback tome with a lot of rules, fluff and pictures. Maybe call it Codex Astartes.
Heh, I don't hate the Ultramarines but they are just so mind-numbing dull in comparison to the exposure they get vs other chapters which have more interesting history/quirks/units.
I mean look, there's tons of interesting stuff there and what do we get for 95% of Space Marine examples/posters/box art? Toga Marines. No quirks, no special units, just all boring Codex-defining normality. Nothing against that in itself, it's actually critically important as it provides a basis for all other Marine chapters to differ from (or not?) but for them to be in my face the whole time...blergh.
Speaking of Mat Ward...my jury is out on him and his work, personally. I like what he did with the new Necron stuff and he justified the changes very well in the Designing Necrons seminar at the WHW Design Studio Open Day last weekend (even if he did sit there like a portly spider in a white shirt, black waistcoat and odd bowler-esque hat while Jeremy Vetock and Jervis Johnson sat in casual-wear either side of him like flies in his web) and he was very polite and well-spoken in person when I met him. Still, less of the blue and more of the other colours, please!
The hate is mostly from oversaturation with Ultra and blue, the UM being poster boys and all.
Once you read up on them they seem a bit less squeaky clean than their propaganda department would have us believe. Ultramar is touted as a paradise realm where everyone lives in happiness and joyful duty to the Empire, but I'm pretty sure that comes at a price. Enforcer series - Calpurnia is from a noble Ultramar bloodline and even has some great-uncle or the like in the Ultramarines. And while she didn't say where she did tell a priest in the Hydraphur system that she's served in jurisdictions where she'd be expected to execute him on the spot for complaining about an Arbites action. In fact she'd face censure herself there if she didn't carry out the execution promptly. So everyone in Ultramar lives happily or else.
Mauler wrote:Heh, I don't hate the Ultramarines but they are just so mind-numbing dull in comparison to the exposure they get vs other chapters which have more interesting history/quirks/units.
I mean look, there's tons of interesting stuff there and what do we get for 95% of Space Marine examples/posters/box art? Toga Marines. No quirks, no special units, just all boring Codex-defining normality. Nothing against that in itself, it's actually critically important as it provides a basis for all other Marine chapters to differ from (or not?) but for them to be in my face the whole time...blergh.
Speaking of Mat Ward...my jury is out on him and his work, personally. I like what he did with the new Necron stuff and he justified the changes very well in the Designing Necrons seminar at the WHW Design Studio Open Day last weekend (even if he did sit there like a portly spider in a white shirt, black waistcoat and odd bowler-esque hat while Jeremy Vetock and Jervis Johnson sat in casual-wear either side of him like flies in his web) and he was very polite and well-spoken in person when I met him. Still, less of the blue and more of the other colours, please!
QFT, Personally I find the history of the UM a bit dull. They seem like Mary Sue Marines, I'd actually be fine with Ward revamping them.
"So we've got these genetically altered super warriors, with monastic discipline, and a inhuman devotion to their duty and the pursuit of war."
"Meh."
"OK, but these ones are good at siege warfare, too!"
"Awesome! Sign me up!"
I exaggerate for effect, but you see what I mean? Vanilla may be the most common flavour of ice cream, but it's still ice cream.
Sorry! Siege warfare is an interesting character trait...the Togas have none apart from being bossy. But there's just nothing striking about them, in the fluff or presentation. You mention the Imperial Fists but apart from taking a back-seat in a lot of fluff so far they have taken part in some of the most critical battles at the dawn of the Imperium. Shaping the defence of the Imperial Palace and defending it from the traitors of Horus. I'm sure they'll get fleshed out a bit more as the Black Library rolls around to it. What have the Togamarines done? Aside from their humourless Primarch risking another civil war by dictating how all other Astartes legions should be ordered, they've not really done a great deal. Released the Nightbringer from it's slumber? Managed to not get involved in most of the Heresy? To me, the Codex Astartes aside, their only redeeming feature is getting stuck in with the Tyranids early on, even if it was just by getting their veteran company eaten to a man.
To be fair as posted above, it's not the Ultramarines' fault that I'm so tired of them; I'm just sick of seeing them all over the place whenever I go to buy any Marine stuff. They're not that special! *shakes fist*
Crimson wrote:Space Marine HG have artificer armour and can have relic blades. Give Blood Angels an option to give their HG death masks and jump packs for +X points and your Sanguinary Guard is done.
Ond no, there is absolutely no need to have different rules for Relic Blades, Frost Blades, Glaives Encarmine etc. Just give one entry* for your Space Marine über power weapon and then everyone can get that.
*(well, you probably should have different entries for Relic Axes, Swords etc now.)
Well, thanks for the clarrification that HG have artificier armour but remember that relic blades are supposed to be S6, its a different gaming mechanic. Also the squad loadouts are different. All Sanguinary Guard have Master Crafted Glaive Encarmines. Do all Space Marine HG get relic blades as standard? I also know for a fact that none of your guys have Infernus Pistols or Angelus Boltguns on them. So my Sanguinary Guard are completely kitted differently from Space Marine Honour Guard.
Not to mention the rules. Sanguinary Guard are fearless.
So basically you want to cover both these units under one entry when my models have angelus boltguns, Infernus pistols, Glaive Encarmines, Jump Packs and are fearless, when Space Marine Honour Guard have their own unique options that we do not get.
To be honest, if you're going to argue this then you may as well just argue that all marines should be combined under one entry and then list their wargear options for them under that one entry with a bunch of complicated text to describe what unlockable content they can have under each circumstance. Whats that? Tactical Sqauds and Assault Squads? Nah, just put them under one entry and then give them an option to change their wargear from bolters to bolt pistols and close combat weapons and give them an option to have jump packs. Funnily enough, this suggestion here actually makes more sense than yours and it would still be considered unworkable.
Death Company definitely should have their own entry, they have too many extra rules and options to be upgraded assault marines.
Yes, it would need to be. Once again they can have Infernus Pistols, Thunder Hammers, Power Weapons, etc ,etc differently loaded out from Assault Squads.
But thing is, currently BA codex is like SM codex + more. This should not be the case.
I stated this in the other thread. When the Space Marines got their codices in 2004 and 2008 I didn't complain. I didn't get all the new toys that you did back then. I've been playing since 3rd ed with Blood Angels. I used the 4th ed FAQ to play my games. I used the pathetic White Dwarf Codex to play my games. Back in those days the Space Marines Codex was the "+ more" codex and not mine. I didn't take a hissy fit like marine players do these days.
Now I'm OK with bringing all Space Marine Chapters more in line with each other so the power level is equalled among them but I do get annoyed with Space Marine players who are unhappy simply because its their turn to wait it out until their next codex. Not that I am saying that you are doing that, but it is something that other Space Marine players do.
Furiosos* and independent apotecharies should be available to everyone. Maybe Baal predators too.
Yes, and we should have artificier armour on our captains, have thunderfire cannons, have conversion beamers on our tech marines, have lascannon dreadnoughts as Elites instead of heavy support, have storm talons, have relic blades, etc, etc. If this is going to be done then it needs to be a two way street. Even if you do believe that our wargear options are better than yours.
And some stuff just should not exist, apotecharies affecting every squad within 6"**
He does cost points you know, It's not like we get him for nothing. If you want the same thing in the next Space Marine codex then fine I have no problem with that. I don't think there is anything wrong with the mechanic at all. Yes, it sucks that you don't have anything similar but like I said above its just your turn to wait it out a bit until your next codex, which conincidently won't be too long. On the other hand it was 11 years between Blood Angels 3rd ed codex and it's 5th ed successor and I do mean a proper codex, not that hashed up White Dwarf article that paraded itself as a codex. Amazing exploding Rhinos my backside.
Perhaps thats why we are "OMG'z overpowered". Probably because we'll be waiting another 11 years for our next codex so better to make it last.
or half an army composed of dreadnoughts are some of those things.
Are they the dreadnoughts with no long range weapons? I don't know what is wrong with 6 dreadnoughts (3 of which I would need to also pay points for 15 death company to have access to) that can't fire at anybody unless they are within 12" of them. If you want Close Combat Dreadnoughts in your next codex then fine I have no problem with this. Perhaps you could have access to Furioso Dreadnoughts as well. I simply don't care.
In any case, no option should be removed in a way that it would render existing models unusable.
Agreed.
* (Or if we have doctrines, at least assault doctrine chapters should get Furiosos.)
** (maybe give BA apotecharies an ability to give the squad they've joined furious charge for +X points.)
Well the whole furious charge ability is our thing and always has been due to the fact we are psychotic nutters who go mental in combat.
Most of the BA units are just copypasted SM units, or SM units with few extra options. But you're right that it would require a much bigger book than current standard codices. I'm imagining a big hardback tome with a lot of rules, fluff and pictures. Maybe call it [i]Codex Astartes.
Yes, they may be copy pasted units with different equipment, but remember those items with different equipment are represented by models. A Baal Predator may be just a Predator but it is a Predator with a Twin Linked Assault Cannon or a Flamestorm Cannon on the top of it. Space Marine Players don't have that on their Predators. If they want access to it then fine, I have no problem with them getting it in their next codex, although it would be a little hard to explain how a BAAL predator is used by a faction from Ultramar.
This option would actually be a relatively easy one compared to some others though. Like I mentioned above how do you combine the entries for Sanguinary Guard with Honour Guard when my guys get Angelus Boltguns and Infernus Pistols and your guys get normal boltguns and Plasma Pistols. Also not to mention every one of my guys come equiped with a two handed power weapon and your guys can have a one handed power weapon and other options. Both units are totally equiped differently in this sense and to different degrees.
DarthOvious wrote:
Well, thanks for the clarrification that HG have artificier armour but remember that relic blades are supposed to be S6, its a different gaming mechanic. Also the squad loadouts are different. All Sanguinary Guard have Master Crafted Glaive Encarmines. Do all Space Marine HG get relic blades as standard? I also know for a fact that none of your guys have Infernus Pistols or Angelus Boltguns on them. So my Sanguinary Guard are completely kitted differently from Space Marine Honour Guard.
Not to mention the rules. Sanguinary Guard are fearless.
So basically you want to cover both these units under one entry when my models have angelus boltguns, Infernus pistols, Glaive Encarmines, Jump Packs and are fearless, when Space Marine Honour Guard have their own unique options that we do not get.
As I said, having different rules for Glaive Encarmines and Relic Blades is just unnecessary. They're both two-handed über power weapons. Relic Blade rules are currently stronger, and I'd be happy to give BA access to those. About Angelus bolters, well, I'm not sure they should exist. I do not understand why assault army (and only that army) should have access to miniaturised super stormbolters. Honour guard can have a combo of relic blade and boltgun. That's WYSIWYG for Sanguinary Guard models. Fearless could come with death masks, or not exist. It is just a rule and I'm not sure what the fluff justification is.
That being said. It was just an example, and I agree that Sanguinary Guard and SM Honour Guard have quite divergent rules currently, so that unit could be a canditate for its own entry.
As for meltapistols and hand flamers, I do not get why those are BA only either. I mean they would be very fitting on, say, Salamanders. It could be a good canditate for a doctrine. Flame Born: gives some of your units option for meltapistols hand flamers and heavy flamers.
I stated this in the other thread. When the Space Marines got their codices in 2004 and 2008 I didn't complain. I didn't get all the new toys that you did back then. I've been playing since 3rd ed with Blood Angels. I used the 4th ed FAQ to play my games. I used the pathetic White Dwarf Codex to play my games. Back in those days the Space Marines Codex was the "+ more" codex and not mine. I didn't take a hissy fit like marine players do these days.
Now I'm OK with bringing all Space Marine Chapters more in line with each other so the power level is equalled among them but I do get annoyed with Space Marine players who are unhappy simply because its their turn to wait it out until their next codex. Not that I am saying that you are doing that, but it is something that other Space Marine players do.
And one big flexible codex would fix all that. There's no need for any marine army to be second tier half of the time.
Yes, and we should have artificier armour on our captains, have thunderfire cannons, have conversion beamers on our tech marines, have lascannon dreadnoughts as Elites instead of heavy support, have storm talons, have relic blades, etc, etc. If this is going to be done then it needs to be a two way street. Even if you do believe that our wargear options are better than yours.
Absolutely. And it is not so much about who gets better gear and stuff, than about having differences for no reason. There is absolutely no reason why BA captains should't have artificer armours. In fact it is idiotic that they don't have them. They give them for entire units of Sang Guard, surely they can spare some for their captains? Similarly there is no reason why any chapter could not stuff their librarians in dreaghnoughts.
He does cost points you know, It's not like we get him for nothing. If you want the same thing in the next Space Marine codex then fine I have no problem with that. I don't think there is anything wrong with the mechanic at all. Yes, it sucks that you don't have anything similar but like I said above its just your turn to wait it out a bit until your next codex, which conincidently won't be too long. On the other hand it was 11 years between Blood Angels 3rd ed codex and it's 5th ed successor and I do mean a proper codex, not that hashed up White Dwarf article that paraded itself as a codex. Amazing exploding Rhinos my backside.
I don't want that. Even if you assume he would be fairly costed, there's still an issue of verisimilitude. I think it is silly that a single Apotechary can simulatenously take care of several units. And it is too good for a minor character too. I wouldn't mind if only Corbulo had that and regular Sang Priests only affected their own units. I however really want independent Apotecharies that I can stick to any unit. It is usefull and fluffy.
Are they the dreadnoughts with no long range weapons? I don't know what is wrong with 6 dreadnoughts (3 of which I would need to also pay points for 15 death company to have access to) that can't fire at anybody unless they are within 12" of them. If you want Close Combat Dreadnoughts in your next codex then fine I have no problem with this. Perhaps you could have access to Furioso Dreadnoughts as well. I simply don't care.
Dreadnoughts are supposed to be ancient and rare. Having loads of them is just silly, even if it was balanced.
Crimson wrote:As I said, having different rules for Glaive Encarmines and Relic Blades is just unnecessary. They're both two-handed über power weapons.
Yes but the main point was that everyone of my guys get them as standard with no options of a normal chainsword. How many in your HG squad gets a Relic Blade? You see both sets of models are drastically equiped differently. It simply can't be done.
Here is a suggestion. Why don't you write up a codex entry for it and see if you can do it without making it too complicated and without losing the options on each unit. That way you'll see how complicated it would actually be.
Relic Blade rules are currently stronger, and I'd be happy to give BA access to those.
Personally, I don't care about them. I can live without them even though they are better.
About Angelus bolters, well, I'm not sure they should exist. I do not understand why assault army (and only that army) should have access to miniaturised super stormbolters.
Well the models have them. So whats your plan to deal with that?
Honour guard can have a combo of relic blade and boltgun. That's WYSIWYG for Sanguinary Guard models.
Its not WYSIWYG simply for the fact that Angelus Bolters =/= Boltguns. I would find it hilarious if this happened because the following conversation would ensue.
Player A: So I will shoot with my Sanguinary Guard now. What are these guns again?
Player B: Those are Boltguns.
Player A: I thought the things you shot at me were Boltguns?
Player B : Yes they are, but you have Boltguns on yours too.
Player A: They don't look anything like your Boltguns. Are you sure they are Boltguns?
Player B: Well they used to be something different, but they're Boltguns now.
Player A: ???????? I don't understand.
I don't think this idea works. Nobody would think of scrapping Assault Cannons and then say they can be WYSIWYG for Heavy Bolters.
Fearless could come with death masks, or not exist. It is just a rule and I'm not sure what the fluff justification is.
Well yes, its just a rule and it can be changed but thats usually the difference between a lot of units in the game. We can sit here and justify that Vanguard Veterans are nothing but Assault Marines and then go on to say that they should be listed as one entry in the codex as well.
That being said. It was just an example, and I agree that Sanguinary Guard and SM Honour Guard have quite divergent rules currently, so that unit could be a canditate for its own entry.
OK, fair enough.
As for meltapistols and hand flamers, I do not get why those are BA only either. I mean they would be very fitting on, say, Salamanders. It could be a good canditate for a doctrine. Flame Born: gives some of your units option for meltapistols hand flamers and heavy flamers.
True. The onus would then be up to Games Workshop to start including them in Space Marine kits. At the moment they only appear in Sang Guard kits and Death Company kits. The ones in the Sang Guard kits are also specialised as they are wrist mounted. Not sure if that would be a problem.
And one big flexible codex would fix all that. There's no need for any marine army to be second tier half of the time.
I agreed that this wouldn't be too big of a problem for me. It would annoy me slightly, but I certainly wouldn't rage quit over it. However, I think where we differ is in the unit entries for things. They need to keep their own entries I think. I have no problem giving them to Space Marines as well but I think it keeps everything easy and simple to understand when each entry has its own section. I think this is why Vanguard Vets and also Assault Marines have separate entries. It keeps things simple and easy to understand.
Absolutely. And it is not so much about who gets better gear and stuff, than about having differences for no reason. There is absolutely no reason why BA captains should't have artificer armours. In fact it is idiotic that they don't have them. They give them for entire units of Sang Guard, surely they can spare some for their captains? Similarly there is no reason why any chapter could not stuff their librarians in dreaghnoughts.
Agreed. I wouldn't mind seeing a Space Marine libby dread. Perfectly fine as far as I'm concerned. I think our Captains don't get artificier armour because it gets given to the Sang Guard in the first place, or at least thats what I thought. This is before I realised that Space Marines have artificier armour honour guard though. So obviously Space Marines have Spare Artificier armour to give out to troops as well and not just their commanders.
I don't want that. Even if you assume he would be fairly costed, there's still an issue of verisimilitude. I think it is silly that a single Apotechary can simulatenously take care of several units. And it is too good for a minor character too. I wouldn't mind if only Corbulo had that and regular Sang Priests only affected their own units. I however really want independent Apotecharies that I can stick to any unit. It is usefull and fluffy.
Well the furious charge part of it is easily justified due to our fluff. The feel no pain to anyone within 6" I think is a gaming mechanic to make our squads survivable on the board, especially since a large part on how we play comes down to the jump pack troops who don't get much in the way of transports. Actually the feel no pain part could also be justified by the fluff as well. Its more of a chapter thing but obviously there needs to be a way to get it but without having it as an overpowered mechanic. Back in 3rd ed all our troops got furious charge army wide for no points cost extra. It wasn't very popular with other players of other armies. This way we get it but we need to pay the points for it. So it works out OK.
If we bring all Marines back into a super dex then those things are the things we need to keep that differeniate ourselves from the other chapters. So we would need some way to get furious charge and feel no pain, but not in a way which is drastically overpowered. Best way to do that is make us pay for it pointswise. Same way I would imagine that Salamanders get their meltas, flamers & master crafted thunderhammers in some form or fashion as a bonus over other chapters.
Dreadnoughts are supposed to be ancient and rare. Having loads of them is just silly, even if it was balanced.
Fluff wise I don't think we get any more than you do. We just get more variation with the ones we got. However back in Space Marines 4th ed codex there was an option to have elites and heavy supports crossover and 4th ed Space Marines could take 6 Dreadnoughts with chapter traits. So that idea started with Space Marines. I don't mind if Space Marines get the option of 6 dreadnoughts again. To me that would be fine. You might say that they are supposed to be rare, but each Chapter only has 1000 marines each and Space Marines are supposed to be a rare sight in themselves. Not to mention those Space Marine players who did start 6 dreadnought armies could come back into the game again.
"So we've got these genetically altered super warriors, with monastic discipline, and a inhuman devotion to their duty and the pursuit of war."
"Meh."
"OK, but these ones are good at siege warfare, too!"
"Awesome! Sign me up!"
I exaggerate for effect, but you see what I mean? Vanilla may be the most common flavour of ice cream, but it's still ice cream.
Sorry! Siege warfare is an interesting character trait...the Togas have none apart from being bossy. But there's just nothing striking about them, in the fluff or presentation. You mention the Imperial Fists but apart from taking a back-seat in a lot of fluff so far they have taken part in some of the most critical battles at the dawn of the Imperium. Shaping the defence of the Imperial Palace and defending it from the traitors of Horus. I'm sure they'll get fleshed out a bit more as the Black Library rolls around to it. What have the Togamarines done? Aside from their humourless Primarch risking another civil war by dictating how all other Astartes legions should be ordered, they've not really done a great deal. Released the Nightbringer from it's slumber? Managed to not get involved in most of the Heresy? To me, the Codex Astartes aside, their only redeeming feature is getting stuck in with the Tyranids early on, even if it was just by getting their veteran company eaten to a man.
To be fair as posted above, it's not the Ultramarines' fault that I'm so tired of them; I'm just sick of seeing them all over the place whenever I go to buy any Marine stuff. They're not that special! *shakes fist*
I dunno, I find the fact that they wrote the book on being a Space Marine pretty interesting. Plus, the fact that they built a mini-empire, that's quite cool. The hints of Greek aesthetic appeals a lot. Most of the other chapters bore me, because they seem like one trick ponies. They've got a gimmick, and that's what they do. I won't bother trotting out a list of achievements, because it's been done pretty comprehensively in earlier posts, but these elements are what, to me, make the UMs just as interesting as the other chapters, if not moreso.
In the end it all burns down to a matter of taste, of course.
People who hate on ultramarines can hate all they like.
Its unoriginal bandwagoning. "Oh, I dont like them because..." Blah blah blah. who cares what color your marines are or what heraldry they have on their armor. They are mandollies all of them. Get over it.
:n-
But Logar!"
