I just checked the GW website, and what does my eyes see. They uppded the cost of a Space marine and Imperial Guard battleforce box from 85 to 100 Euros.

Now I'm not normally one to cry over a price hike, but WTF GW? How the freakin hell do they justify a 15 euro price increase on a box like that. Its only 20 bucks away from the price we used to pa for the old Megaforce army deals a few years ago. At least then you got your moneys worth.

I'm sure other things got their price tweaked too. I just havent noticed yet. Now ive stuck with the hobby for years, price hikes and all, but even my wallet is starting to feel a little strained right now.

It's now only a $10 discount from what you would pay if you were to piece them out...it's a horrible battleforce anyway though so it's not a super big deal I guess

BrotherVord wrote:It's now only a $10 discount from what you would pay if you were to piece them out...it's a horrible battleforce anyway though so it's not a super big deal I guess

Actually it use to be a good deal with the leman russ

Asherian Command wrote:

BrotherVord wrote:It's now only a $10 discount from what you would pay if you were to piece them out...it's a horrible battleforce anyway though so it's not a super big deal I guess

Actually it use to be a good deal with the leman russ

I was actually referring to the space marine force, the price increase seems to be due to rhinos now costing 37 bucks, was this a stealth increase?

Over here its 180 AUD so, yeah...hooray...

Bait n Switch.

The ole' switcheroo.

GW does not know how to run a company. What else is new?

Unfortunately, they can do whatever they want because they know we'll buy it anyway.

spacewolf407 wrote:Unfortunately, they can do whatever they want because they know we'll buy it anyway.

Speak for yourself, chief.

When I saw the stormraven was $82.50 (USD), I couldnt fething believe it. My god..... its not worth near that. I thought the original price was a bit much...

Storm Raven price hike was huge. Think it got buffed with needing sixes to hit it so the materials to make it must now be more expensive for GW =P

the worst price increase that made me cry was when 20 whfb orc boyz were 35 and they switched it to 10 boys for 29 us dollars, and made 10 40k ork boys that were 22.50 to 29 dollars, since you have to buy soooo many boys this freakin sucked, plus space marines are op so dont buy thier stuff anyway buy ork stuff

Uh... uh...

Wait a few years then go Forgeworld, problem solved

pepe5454 wrote:Storm Raven price hike was huge. Think it got buffed with needing sixes to hit it so the materials to make it must now be more expensive for GW =P

Thank the god emperor I bought 2 of em when they were first released... and there really isn't a list where you need 3

TedNugent wrote:

spacewolf407 wrote:Unfortunately, they can do whatever they want because they know we'll buy it anyway.

Speak for yourself, chief.

Agreed. The new Dakkajet was the first GW thing I've bought since the just before the last price hike.

I bought my entire Ork army all at once (without any failcost!) and my friend (who still has yet to play a game) bought his entire Blood Angel army (including every character in metal plus tons of extra stuff).

I think the next time I'm over his place well do a price check and see how much we've saved.

I just choked on my drink when I saw the price hike. Thank god for small independant resellers. Managed to buy two Eldar heavy support platforms for 42 swiss francs yesterday (about 42 dollars I think). The guy couldn't sell them to anyone so gave me a 40% off deal.

Horst wrote:When I saw the stormraven was $82.50 (USD), I couldnt fething believe it. My god..... its not worth near that. I thought the original price was a bit much...

uh, in australia its $110 for the stormraven.

Americans think they have it bad... I'd gladly pay american prices instead of our AU prices. Especially considering our dollar is the same as the US dollar is now.

It only a matter of time till there's a US-Aussie GW smuggling operation.

Dragonzord wrote:

Horst wrote:When I saw the stormraven was $82.50 (USD), I couldnt fething believe it. My god..... its not worth near that. I thought the original price was a bit much...

uh, in australia its $110 for the stormraven.

Americans think they have it bad... I'd gladly pay american prices instead of our AU prices. Especially considering our dollar is the same as the US dollar is now.

Grey Templar wrote:It only a matter of time till there's a US-Aussie GW smuggling operation.

yea i'm surprised anybody buys gw direct or buys at a flgs in au... i'd buy it all online at 20% off us and get it shipped if there is an issue heck i might have to start a 15% off gw product pricing plus exact shipping to au >_<

For my next army my aim is to not buy a single GW product - so no, people don't just buy anyway

We should all go to Britain and start a siege at GW HQ.

Fortunetly i already have most of my next army and i know some good discount sites.

If they lose 10% sales numbers by increasing prices 20% it's a net gain of over 8% (since shipping and manufacturing costs go down as well). If it's feasible in the long run, I don't know, but then again you get certain brands where high prices actually increases demand for no good reason (Apple, Monster Cable, Razer, etc probably an absolute metric tonne of fashion brands you can use as examples here as well)

Aprion wrote:I just checked the GW website, and what does my eyes see. They uppded the cost of a Space marine and Imperial Guard battleforce box from 85 to 100 Euros.

Congratulations that you finally noticed this years price increase by GW, taking effect first week of June. And yes, it included all battleforces, 40k and Fantasy.
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/451127.page

Aprion wrote:Now I'm not normally one to cry over a price hike, but WTF GW? How the freakin hell do they justify a 15 euro price increase on a box like that.

With the new Allies rules, I reckon.

Meh could not care less. I have more than enough fund for whatever GW may conjure up regarding prices anyhow.

im all for a seige at willow road..

Kroothawk wrote:

Aprion wrote:I just checked the GW website, and what does my eyes see. They uppded the cost of a Space marine and Imperial Guard battleforce box from 85 to 100 Euros.

Congratulations that you finally noticed this years price increase by GW, taking effect first week of June. And yes, it included all battleforces, 40k and Fantasy.
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/451127.page

Actually kroot when I checked the site just a few days back the prices were still their old value. So please spare me that cheeky lip.

Then you must have been viewing a cached version as the prices have been up since June. There's multiple threads on it from then.

No idea how this thread has survived this long.

Just makes the cheaper games to get into much more attractive. It's the reason I started collecting Warmachine.

TedNugent wrote:

spacewolf407 wrote:Unfortunately, they can do whatever they want because they know we'll buy it anyway.

Speak for yourself, chief.

^

GW's price increases haven't been greater than inflation over time.

Go to your local grocery store and look at the price of bacon. It will make you feel much better about 40k.

In this particular case, the price hike in a euro-denominated product probably has something to do with the collapsing value of the euro as well.

Mordechai wrote:Just makes the cheaper games to get into much more attractive. It's the reason I started collecting Warmachine.

model price jumps is why i started malifeax as well but the issue is people have so much 40k stuff it shard to find a game... plus i honestly like 40k better. I do occationally ge tin a game with my Lady justice box plus peacekeepr crew

then again i have alot of money in my 40k armies and at this point have so many models i'm ok with adding in a new unit here and there to keep competative.. i do think 40k is more and mroe becoming a mostly those who play keep playing and attracting fewer and fewer new players. at my flgs lots of teenagers come talk to use at the tables see the game played and really seem to want to try playing, sometimes if they have time and don't have hygene problems i'll let em use one of my loaner armies and play a 2 v one with me helping them but usually no matter how excited they are abotu the gaem they go look at the prices for models and just find it cost prohibitive.

Ailaros wrote:GW's price increases haven't been greater than inflation over time.

Go to your local grocery store and look at the price of bacon. It will make you feel much better about 40k.

In this particular case, the price hike in a euro-denominated product probably has something to do with the collapsing value of the euro as well.

Can't speak for inflation, but this is the value of the pound vs the Euro in the last five years:

So in the past 5 years, all other things being equal (i.e. ignoring inflation), GW are receiving 13% less money. During 2009 it was about a third less...

I definitely agree that the price difference for Australians is beyond outrageous. That being said some people should look at how much other hobbies cost. Computer or console gaming costs can easily run into the thousands (at least hundreds for the latter), marathons can be well over a hundred bucks, instruments are typically fairly expensive for anything that is worth keeping, even a night at the movies can cost you $30...you get the idea

Now I don't say of that because I'm trying to defend GW's marketing, but for me at least it provides me with some justification for continuing to collect the models and occasionally play the game. I personally wish GW would lower their prices so more people could afford the game. 40K is a great game and I think if more people could afford it they could get more people interested in the hobby and all of their model sales would increase rather than just those of the latest codex. Having better sales only when they release new stuff is also extremely expensive (not only from an artist standpoint, but also an engineering) and encourages to do higher quantities of new work while at a lower quality. If GW doesn't change some of their business structure they very well may run out of dedicated followers, but I guess compared to the other hobbies its worth it (I love the modeling and painting aspect of the hobby) enough for me to stay on board until the boat goes under.

That being said there still is no reason you can't play 40k (surely you have at least one competent army) and start Warmachine. GW doesn't gain profit if all you do is play. If enough people did it they might even take a hint and rethink their business model.

Sorry for the long words, my thoughts just kept getting longer, but I hope everyone takes what I'm saying the right way. I certainly am not a die hard GW fan, but I don't think you necessarily have to give up 40k to give them that message...at least I don't want to think that anyways.

TedNugent wrote:

spacewolf407 wrote:Unfortunately, they can do whatever they want because they know we'll buy it anyway.

Speak for yourself, chief.

I think he's almost right Nuge. GW is playing the odds. Some people will leave the hobby, but a lot of people have so much invested in 40K already they'll just bite down hard and pay anyway. GW will make up the money lost to people leaving with the increased revenue.

Also...for me at least 40K costs about the same as Golf. For some reason, I don't see golfers complaining about how much their irons cost. Their wives do.

GW's price increases haven't been greater than inflation over time.

I find that very hard to bellieve.
When I first started (fall of 1989) a box of 30 plastic Space Marines cost something like 20-24$. A blister of six metal miniatures was 6-7$. I have not bought anything new for quite some time, so I had to look it up. Looking on GW's web site a box of 5 Space Marines is now 25$. To get the same number of plastic figures that your 24$ bought you back in the day it will run you 150$. Has the general rate of inflation since 1990 or so really gone up 500%? I doubt it. It's harder to figure the overall price increase of the blister I mentioned above as GW no longer does metal miniatures. But the finecast crap is close enough to make a comparison. A blister of six Eldar in 1990 cost around six or seven dollars. Now six Eldar finecast models is 41.25$. That's about a 600% increase. Shall I talk about vehicle kits? Ok, it's not remotely fair for me to compare the original Land Raider kit that packaged two models for 24$. (I wish I had bought every one of those I could lay my hands on in hindsight). So let's go with the second Land Raider box which was about 24$ in the early '90s. What are they running now? 75$? Well, that's a real deal at only a 300% increase in price!

As galling as GW's "five dollars here, 15 dollars there" price increases over the years are, they still have not topped their all time biggest rip off/price increase. That occured in the summer of 1993 when they took advantage of a more or less baseless lead scare to change over from a lead based to a tin based alloy. They made a big deal in a White Dwarf at thre time that they were doing this to "protect their customers" and that the price of metal minitaure blisters would not go up a single penny. When the new non-lead figures showed up the following month, they were right. The sticker price for the blisters was the same. But the content of most infantry blisters had dropped from six to three models! Yes, GW took advantage of media hype to put in place a 100% price increase...all the while cynically lying about what they did.

TR

Yeah, GW are just doing it all wrong. No, i havent gone to uni to study marketing, but wouldnt lowering the price to make it accessable to more people (who would then buy more), make more sense than raising the price?

I mean, to even start playing you need to spend $180 (AUD), 124 for the rulebook, 55 for a codex. And then come the models... and the paints ($6 each), and the tools ($25 each)

In australia, everyone i know buys from Ebay from americans or euros, and even with postage we're paying a good 20-40% less than our local models.
But what gets me the most is that those of us that want to buy from stores in eu/us, we arent allowed to, the stores arent allowed to sell to us because GW want to drain AU of more money...

imo, have one worldwide set price. I and everyone i know would happily pay the american price for models, but multiple prices for multiple countries just seems like the most horrific cash grab there is.

Dragonzord wrote:Yeah, GW are just doing it all wrong. No, i havent gone to uni to study marketing, but wouldnt lowering the price to make it accessable to more people (who would then buy more), make more sense than raising the price?

I mean, to even start playing you need to spend $180 (AUD), 124 for the rulebook, 55 for a codex. And then come the models... and the paints ($6 each), and the tools ($25 each)

In australia, everyone i know buys from Ebay from americans or euros, and even with postage we're paying a good 20-40% less than our local models.
But what gets me the most is that those of us that want to buy from stores in eu/us, we arent allowed to, the stores arent allowed to sell to us because GW want to drain AU of more money...

imo, have one worldwide set price. I and everyone i know would happily pay the american price for models, but multiple prices for multiple countries just seems like the most horrific cash grab there is.

gw paint >_<... gw paint is terribad

agrred on book prices though they are pricey can't wait for the starter set . at least the new rulebook as weapon stats in it though so you can likely pull off starter set armies without an army codex once they release 6th ed one. sad thing is people still buying AoBR thinking its an up to date 40k game rulebook

eh, black reach in au is still $165... compared to America's $99

The one that makes me lol the most is the realm of battle gameboard... US price - $290. AU price - $450. lulwut.

G00fySmiley wrote:gw paint >_<... gw paint is terribad

Not all of it... I can't speak for the new stuff, but there was some that were alright from the last lot.

The twist lids though, those were demonic.

In britain, using GBP:

http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?catId=cat440270a&prodId=prod1060108
From £65 to £80

http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?catId=cat440206a&prodId=prod1090186
From £65 to £80


Wtf...?

EDIT: Does anyone remember that the SM codex started out at £15?

http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?catId=cat440270a&prodId=prod1550002
It's now £25.

Dragonzord wrote:eh, black reach in au is still $165... compared to America's $99

The one that makes me lol the most is the realm of battle gameboard... US price - $290. AU price - $450. lulwut.

At least it only went up $15 this time, last time it was from $100 straight to $150 if I remember correctly or it was $130. One of the two.
RoBGB, I don't think it's that worth it at any of the prices. But if you need lazy skull pits, then its a good way to get skull pits.

Bobthehero wrote:Uh... uh...

Wait a few years then go Forgeworld, problem solved

Hahahahahahahaha! This is awesomeness!

Skriker


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Ailaros wrote:GW's price increases haven't been greater than inflation over time.

Go to your local grocery store and look at the price of bacon. It will make you feel much better about 40k.

In this particular case, the price hike in a euro-denominated product probably has something to do with the collapsing value of the euro as well.

But GW products are not euro-denominated. The UK still uses the Pound sterling as its baseline currency. They never switched to the euro.

Skriker


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Grugknuckle wrote:Also...for me at least 40K costs about the same as Golf. For some reason, I don't see golfers complaining about how much their irons cost. Their wives do.

My ex used to complain about my mini costs too. Well once you have your clubs you are good to go and the rules of golf don't change every 5 years requiring you to make changes to your golf club selection. Of course the fees at golf courses have gotten higher and I hear golfers in my area complaining about that all the time. Just because they don't complain about their clubs doesn't mean they don't get hit with higher prices in other areas and complain about that just as much as people here complain about GW.

Skriker

I remember when the battleforce boxes were first ever released... 10 Tactical marines, 5 Terminators (the old space hulk plastic ones), 3 space marine bikes and a landspeeder iirc... all for £40 iirc...

So a price increase of around 20% per year... wonder how long they can keep it up?... I say 10 years tops...

JbR of the Endless Spire wrote:I remember when the battleforce boxes were first ever released... 10 Tactical marines, 5 Terminators (the old space hulk plastic ones), 3 space marine bikes and a landspeeder iirc... all for £40 iirc...

So a price increase of around 20% per year... wonder how long they can keep it up?... I say 10 years tops...

When a box of tactical marines costs £50 (£5 per marine), GW will probably go bankrupt.

Well they are almost half way there already. So I'll change that to 10-15 years tops then... And I think GW will probably be bankrupt way before it gets to £50 for 10, I mean would you even pay £30 for 10?

GW is the only company in the universe that tries to improve profit by reducing demand.


Oh, and you can't tell me that Imperial Bastions going from $30 - $41 (with the advent of 6th edition) has a d***ed thing to do with inflation.

n0t_u wrote:

G00fySmiley wrote:gw paint >_<... gw paint is terribad

Not all of it... I can't speak for the new stuff, but there was some that were alright from the last lot.

The twist lids though, those were demonic.

i guess its a price to quality thing for me.. thier prices are even higher then better quality pots.. heck i think i can do better with cheap americana acrylic paint at 99 cents for a 8 ounce bottle that closes better (gw pots seem designed to have the pain dry out after opening >_< maybe its just the few gw paints i biught but i was not happy with the product... though thier primer is really second to none that i've found so far so i do use that

fleetofclaw wrote:GW is the only company in the universe that tries to improve profit by reducing demand.

Yarp.

For Australians...

The UK pound vs Australian dollars.
Looks like GW have been taking the piss

Great White wrote:We should all go to Britain and start a siege at GW HQ.

We are the 99%!
Occupy GW!
Let us hear the lamentation of their women!

Nelson wrote:

Great White wrote:We should all go to Britain and start a siege at GW HQ.

We are the 99%!
Occupy GW!
Let us hear the lamentation of their women!

And their miniatures!!

You know, I actually want to do that..
EDIT: I was considering starting a new army, but when I realised it was going to cost me £71.00 just to get a legal list, I was really pissed off.

Skriker wrote:But GW products are not euro-denominated.

They are when they're being sold in countries that use Euros.

Testify wrote:this is the value of the pound vs the Euro in the last five years:

Also, there's probably some forethought put into it. It's not just how the Euro has gone compared to the pound recently, but it also probably reflects what GW expects the Euro to do in the near future.

And since there's the faintest possibility that there won't even BE euros in the next 5 years, much less that they have any value...

Testify wrote:Can't speak for inflation...

Here's the quote I've got to dust off every time someone complains about GW price hikes...

Ailaros wrote:In 1987, space marines were £0.75 apiece. The price for a litre of petrol in 1987 was £0.387. In 2012, the price of a space marine is £2.30 apiece. The price of a litre of petrol as of this month is £1.338.

The cost of a space marine has increased just about 200%, while the price of petrol has increased 245%. During that same time period the price of gold has increased just slightly less than that (194%), while the price of a pound of bacon has nearly quadrupled (increase of 293%). The price of ground beef has gone up 83% in the last three years alone, much less the last 25.

Plus, even if GW increased its prices slightly over the cost of inflation, you've got to look at the quality of the product itself. 25 years ago, you basically couldn't find anybody to play the game with you, and the minis looked like this:



... to a game where its easy to find someone to play (with better rules), and that has minis that look like this:



What we're talking about is a game that has gotten cheaper, or stayed the same (or at absolute worst, gotten slightly more expensive) compared to inflation, while also being a bigger, better, more popular game with a much higher quality product.

The price of 40k has not substantially increased over the cost of inflation over time, all for a marked jump in quality.

Aprion wrote:Actually kroot when I checked the site just a few days back the prices were still their old value. So please spare me that cheeky lip.

Price increase for battleforces etc. took effect 1st June worldwide, and that includes the Netherlands.
See this abbreviated US-list which explicitely includes the battleforces (German list is similar, also including all battleforces):
http://silverspringhobby.blogspot.de/2012/05/gw-2012-annual-price-increase-june-1st.html?m=1

Kroothawk wrote:

Aprion wrote:Actually kroot when I checked the site just a few days back the prices were still their old value. So please spare me that cheeky lip.

Price increase for battleforces etc. took effect 1st June worldwide, and that includes the Netherlands.
See this abbreviated US-list which explicitely includes the battleforces (German list is similar, also including all battleforces):
http://silverspringhobby.blogspot.de/2012/05/gw-2012-annual-price-increase-june-1st.html?m=1

Who wants to work out the average based on sales volumes?

Here's the quote I've got to dust off every time someone complains about GW price hikes...

You really should be ashamed of yourself for posting something so blatantly misleading as to be intellectually dishonest like that, Ailaros.

First off you are attempting to compare the prices of gold and gasoline to that of GW models? The former are commodities that are well known for extreme price increases and in the case of gasoline is notorious for extreme price fluxuation. That's not comparing apples and oranges. That's comparing apples and bricks! A more valid comparison would be to contrast GWs pricing with that of other wargame companies. It's hard to get a good solid comparison because many of GW's contemporaries from the time period we are talking about are either out of business or I don't recall their pricing circa 1990, but I'll use one I am familar with. Old Glory started selling their 15mm ACW and Napoleonic lines around 1990 and at the time they charged 20$ for a bag of 100 figures. Today the list price for the same figures is 20$ for 48 figures. That's a 100% price hike in the same time frame as GW's 3-600% increases. Like I said, it's not the best comparison as they are different gaming genres and scales, but they do have similar sized figures lines and market saturation in their respective markets.

Second, I'm not sure were you got your pricing for Space Marine figures, but they are way off. Did you not see my post above? (more likely willfully ignored the uncomfortable facts, but that's another topic).. In the period 1990 to the present the building blocks of a 40k army have increased between 300 to 600%, not 200% as you state.

Finally, the difference in quality between then and now is not the topic of this diccussion. In any event even an old model fan like myself will freely admit that quality in the sculpts has increased. (I don't care for the current "cluttered" style of the models, but that's another topic and is subjective anyway...) But you lost your credibility entirely when you posted a blurry photo of a very badly painted early dreadnaught along side a studio quality photo of a very well painted current edition model in an attempt to make a point. I'm reminded of an article titled "40k revised" that apeared in WD some ten years ago. It was trying to make the same point by showing very nicely painted current Space marine models along side a badly painted one piece plastic 2nd edition model (those were bad sculpts even by the standards of those days) and an UNPAINTED plastic RT "beaky" marine. So kudos to you, son. You successfully emulated the same intelectually dishonest tactic that GW themselves utlitized. You've learned well, apparently. I could play the same game of course. I could dig up a photo of a very well painted miniature from one of the top level GW studio painters of the early '90s like Mike McVay or scan something from one of my '89 and '90 Golden Daemon Awards Yearbooks and contrast it with a photo from Ebay showing a current model that was painted by an eight year old. But what would that prove?

I would say "nice try", but that would be a lie...and I admit that I'm alot of things, but I am not a liar.

Drink that GW koolaid, boy! Choke it down!

TR

Trench-Raider wrote:

Here's the quote I've got to dust off every time someone complains about GW price hikes...

You really should be ashamed of yourself for posting something so blatantly misleading as to be intellectually dishonest like that, Ailaros.

First off you are attempting to compare the prices of gold and gasoline to that of GW models? The former are commodities that are well known for extreme price increases and in the case of gasoline is notorious for extreme price fluxuation. That's not comparing apples and oranges. That's comparing apples and bricks! A more valid comparison would be to contrast GWs pricing with that of other wargame companies. It's hard to get a good solid comparison because many of GW's contemporaries from the time period we are talking about are either out of business or I don't recall their pricing circa 1990, but I'll use one I am familar with. Old Glory started selling their 15mm ACW and Napoleonic lines around 1990 and at the time they charged 20$ for a bag of 100 figures. Today the list price for the same figures is 20$ for 48 figures. That's a 100% price hike in the same time frame as GW's 3-600% increases. Like I said, it's not the best comparison as they are different gaming genres and scales, but they do have similar sized figures lines and market saturation in their respective markets.

Second, I'm not sure were you got your pricing for Space Marine figures, but they are way off. Did you not see my post above? (more likely willfully ignored the uncomfortable facts, but that's another topic).. In the period 1990 to the present the building blocks of a 40k army have increased between 300 to 600%, not 200% as you state.

Finally, the difference in quality between then and now is not the topic of this diccussion. In any event even an old model fan like myself will freely admit that quality in the sculpts has increased. (I don't care for the current "cluttered" style of the models, but that's another topic and is subjective anyway...) But you lost your credibility entirely when you posted a blurry photo of a very badly painted early dreadnaught along side a studio quality photo of a very well painted current edition model in an attempt to make a point. I'm reminded of an article titled "40k revised" that apeared in WD some ten years ago. It was trying to make the same point by showing very nicely painted current Space marine models along side a badly painted one piece plastic 2nd edition model (those were bad sculpts even by the standards of those days) and an UNPAINTED plastic RT "beaky" marine. So kudos to you, son. You successfully emulated the same intelectually dishonest tactic that GW themselves utlitized. You've learned well, apparently. I could play the same game of course. I could dig up a photo of a very well painted miniature from one of the top level GW studio painters of the early '90s like Mike McVay or scan something from one of my '89 and '90 Golden Daemon Awards Yearbooks and contrast it with a photo from Ebay showing a current model that was painted by an eight year old. But what would that prove?

I would say "nice try", but that would be a lie...and I admit that I'm alot of things, but I am not a liar.

Drink that GW koolaid, boy! Choke it down!

TR

.....(I will not insult I will not insult) Plastic is made from petroleum, now I do have to say though this latest price hike doesn't quite make sense to me. How does Magic The Gathering do so well with cards becoming tournament useless in a year. Prices are good enough to continue or start the hobby. Quite frankly if GW slashed their prices even for a month I think they would see a massive boom in sales. Hell if they slashed the prices 30% for a month I think many people would buy new armies and expand current lists. Sure afterwords the idiotic accountants at GW would probably hike the prices further up afterwards since they would undoubtedly think people were just wanting to buy warhammer that month and hope people continue to buy at inflated prices.

All that I really hate about the price increases are those on kits or books that haven't been changed at all for years to make them need to raise the prices.

I mean I looked at the space marine codex and I was pretty surprised and had to check what I had paid for the eldar codex i got recently.

What in the SM codex changed for it to have a jump up in prices? It isn't hardback from what i can see, and they certainly haven't released a new version of that same codex with new things like they did for that electronic version; so what was it that made it jump to the same price as the WHFB hardbacks?

I told a co worker about 40k today. He seemed to think it was cool. I showed him a few pictures of my models, again he thought it was cool.

Told him a single stormraven cost $82.50.

Zero interest from that point on.

This game is priced well beyond anyone who wants to start.

the thing that annoys the hell out of me is this.

I bought a box of plastic space marines (1998 i believe), it was £10, I thought this was a fair price.... roll on 14 years later (yeah im old) the EXACT same box of marines (ok they added some more purity seals and what not) costs me £22.50... I mean its the same damn box, I feel sorry for the guard and ork players who went from the good 20/16 man sets to the 10 man ones for a ...price increase?????????

Horst wrote:I told a co worker about 40k today. He seemed to think it was cool. I showed him a few pictures of my models, again he thought it was cool.

Told him a single stormraven cost $82.50.

Zero interest from that point on.

This game is priced well beyond anyone who wants to start.

I'm in the same boat. I have 3 different friends who would love to start. An ork, a DE and a Necron. They were interested, they wanted in. They saw the prices and you could see the dissapointment in their eyes. They wanted in so badly. But at those prices it's just not feasable. Hell, we'd be ok with US/UK prices. And the amount of people I know who quit simply because they couldn't afford it anymore. People say 'oh you can play with the models you have' which is very true. But that gets boring. You always want to try new things, new models. and once you get bored of what you have, and can't afford to expand, you eventually go 'meh' and stop.
I haven't bought a thing other than a few trades from the swapshop and an ebay buy or 2 since the embargo. If wayland was able to sell to me they would have gotten at least $500, probably closer to $1000 if the embargo hadn't gone up. But I guess no money is better than money from a 3rd party. My last purchase was a land raider from Wayland. I could have bought 2 off wayland with money left over rather than walking down the street and buying it here. Hell, for $20 more I'd have gotten a 3rd one and that includes shipping. And with these price increases it only makes it worse. Unless GW smartens up I don't see they company seeing 2020.

Two friends of mine...been working on them for two years to get into the game with me. I've shared the BRB with them. They love the fluff, but they can't justify the cost to start playing. (These guys make good money, are really bright, and have the time, but they think the entry point costs and rule complexity of 40k are too high.)

This game is a nonstarter for most of my friends. GW can't live on my spontaneous purchases can it?

hello ebay.

Wardragoon:

.....(I will not insult I will not insult)

Heh.
Well, I was a tad harsh with the kid, but he deserved it. Make no mistake about it. I strongly disagree with the koolaid drinkers and fanboys in their continued support of the unsuportable (as an aside, I have NEVER had one ever try to justify GW's actions in regards to the '93 lead scare. That set the tone for how GW treats it's customers and they can't say anything to justify it...) But I do recognize that they have a right to their opinion on the matter. Even if one of them just said something like "I don't care about the prices. I think I get enough value for my money and that's the end of it" I could respect that. I would still think their opinion was dead wrong, but I could respect their view as legitimate. What irritates me is when the GW appologists say things they know are not true, use dishonest comparisons, or just out and out lie.

Plastic is made from petroleum

Yes it is.
But Petroleum prices fluxuate up and down from day to day and from year to year. GWs prices do not. Have you EVER heard of them lowering prices? Neither have I. Other companies do. To use Old Glory as an example again, a few years back there was a tin shortage and as a result OG raised their prices a bit. But when doing so, they made the promise that they would lower their prices again should the shortage disapear. Eventually the supply problems were corrected and OG lowered their prices again. GW had also raised their prices at the same time, citing the same reasons. Guess who's prices remained at the new level...until the next price increase of course. Just like they had with the '93 lead scare, GW cynically used a percieved crisis to raise prices. What is it that PoS Rahm Emanuel said a couple of years ago? "Never let a good crisis go to waste"?
In any event, have oil prices gone up 600% since 1990? No.

As to the rest of your post in regards to GW pricing themselves out of a market and how a price decrease would lead to greater sales, I fully agree.

Hello Ebay

You know it.
Unless you just HAVE to have the latest shiney toys on release day, the second hand market is the only way to go when it comes to GW. if you know how to strip miniatures and don't mind using last edition's figures, you can actually build most armies pretty cheaply.

TR

I don't really care at this point.

I'll buy this crap pretty much no matter how much it costs. I like to think of it in these terms:

1st. 40k models are a one time buy and done deal. What I buy today will always be able to be used. Even if the company goes under it doesn't stop me from playing with my friends in the current edition. I think 100 dollars for 10 chaos terminators is a great investment. I get to play as much as I want with them and I get to paint and customize them any way I want.

I am also supporting the company that brought 40k into my life. I love 40k. I love the miniatures I love the rules I love painting I love playing with my pals and I love the fluff. This is a great game. It will always be. But it is just that. A game. Something to get your mind off of other things you are dealing with and become the commander of an army set in our galaxy 38,000 years from now. Great stuff. Maybe you would rather do something for your entertainment that is cheaper, and that's your right. But I prefer this.

I love this game. And I'll pay whatever they want to (basically) to continue to use their great product.

Ignatius wrote:I don't really care at this point.

I'll buy this crap pretty much no matter how much it costs. I like to think of it in these terms:

1st. 40k models are a one time buy and done deal. What I buy today will always be able to be used. Even if the company goes under it doesn't stop me from playing with my friends in the current edition. I think 100 dollars for 10 chaos terminators is a great investment. I get to play as much as I want with them and I get to paint and customize them any way I want.

I am also supporting the company that brought 40k into my life. I love 40k. I love the miniatures I love the rules I love painting I love playing with my pals and I love the fluff. This is a great game. It will always be. But it is just that. A game. Something to get your mind off of other things you are dealing with and become the commander of an army set in our galaxy 38,000 years from now. Great stuff. Maybe you would rather do something for your entertainment that is cheaper, and that's your right. But I prefer this.

I love this game. And I'll pay whatever they want to (basically) to continue to use their great product.

This is the reason GW thinks it's okay to jack up prices.

Great White wrote:

Ignatius wrote:I don't really care at this point.

I'll buy this crap pretty much no matter how much it costs. I like to think of it in these terms:

1st. 40k models are a one time buy and done deal. What I buy today will always be able to be used. Even if the company goes under it doesn't stop me from playing with my friends in the current edition. I think 100 dollars for 10 chaos terminators is a great investment. I get to play as much as I want with them and I get to paint and customize them any way I want.

I am also supporting the company that brought 40k into my life. I love 40k. I love the miniatures I love the rules I love painting I love playing with my pals and I love the fluff. This is a great game. It will always be. But it is just that. A game. Something to get your mind off of other things you are dealing with and become the commander of an army set in our galaxy 38,000 years from now. Great stuff. Maybe you would rather do something for your entertainment that is cheaper, and that's your right. But I prefer this.

I love this game. And I'll pay whatever they want to (basically) to continue to use their great product.

This is the reason GW thinks it's okay to jack up prices.

Quite frankly, I don't care.

God forbid someone not agree with everyone else. I'm sorry I don't prescribe to the same ideas as you all.

Well, the idea of this thread is to bitch, and with you here, the bitchyness is hanging in the balance.

Great White wrote:Well, the idea of this thread is to bitch, and with you here, the bitchyness is hanging in the balance.

You're right. I should have known better than to post something like this on this thread.

Trench-Raider wrote:Wardragoon:

.....(I will not insult I will not insult)

Heh.
Well, I was a tad harsh with the kid, but he deserved it. Make no mistake about it. I strongly disagree with the koolaid drinkers and fanboys in their continued support of the unsuportable (as an aside, I have NEVER had one ever try to justify GW's actions in regards to the '93 lead scare. That set the tone for how GW treats it's customers and they can't say anything to justify it...) But I do recognize that they have a right to their opinion on the matter. Even if one of them just said something like "I don't care about the prices. I think I get enough value for my money and that's the end of it" I could respect that. I would still think their opinion was dead wrong, but I could respect their view as legitimate. What irritates me is when the GW appologists say things they know are not true, use dishonest comparisons, or just out and out lie.

Plastic is made from petroleum

Yes it is.
But Petroleum prices fluxuate up and down from day to day and from year to year. GWs prices do not. Have you EVER heard of them lowering prices? Neither have I. Other companies do. To use Old Glory as an example again, a few years back there was a tin shortage and as a result OG raised their prices a bit. But when doing so, they made the promise that they would lower their prices again should the shortage disapear. Eventually the supply problems were corrected and OG lowered their prices again. GW had also raised their prices at the same time, citing the same reasons. Guess who's prices remained at the new level...until the next price increase of course. Just like they had with the '93 lead scare, GW cynically used a percieved crisis to raise prices. What is it that PoS Rahm Emanuel said a couple of years ago? "Never let a good crisis go to waste"?
In any event, have oil prices gone up 600% since 1990? No.

As to the rest of your post in regards to GW pricing themselves out of a market and how a price decrease would lead to greater sales, I fully agree.
.

TR

While yes Petroleum prices do go up and down, they are still higher than they were in the mid 90s. And I do agree that GW is doing the whole "Never Let a Good Crisis go to waste" approach to it...But who isnt, gas companies are making record profits while claiming they are receiving less oil and need the money just to stay afloat. But I digress considering this isn't a proper forum for nongaming economics.


EDIT: I am aware I am guilty of this as well as some others, lets try to keep this polite, we don't want the modquisition killing the thread

Ailaros wrote:In 1987, space marines were £0.75 apiece. The price for a litre of petrol in 1987 was £0.387. In 2012, the price of a space marine is £2.30 apiece. The price of a litre of petrol as of this month is £1.338.

The cost of a space marine has increased just about 200%, while the price of petrol has increased 245%. During that same time period the price of gold has increased just slightly less than that (194%), while the price of a pound of bacon has nearly quadrupled (increase of 293%). The price of ground beef has gone up 83% in the last three years alone, much less the last 25.

You are not honestly trying to make that relation are you?

One of them is a luxury product while the other may as well be a necessity due to the reliance of most countries' infrastructure. Though both seem to be inelastic at least the reasons for fuel to be so are much clearer. Fuel could have increased 300-500% in that time, the only real thing holding it back is simply how much income the members of that economy have to throw away. Stuff like companies that require trucks to ship resources and ships/planes to trade between countries rely entirely upon fuel. Thus it could be any price and still sell. The only reason it probably hasn't is so that the public can afford to do so and thus bring in a bigger profit in total than having only a few sole companies being able to afford such a depended upon resource.

It would have made more sense to compare them to another product that is actually within their same category.

Horst wrote:I told a co worker about 40k today. He seemed to think it was cool. I showed him a few pictures of my models, again he thought it was cool.

Told him a single stormraven cost $82.50.

Zero interest from that point on.

This game is priced well beyond anyone who wants to start.

Exactly the same as my partner. "oh imperial guard look awesome, i wanna play!" then sees the prices and is like 'nahhhhh'

The business these guys are losing coz they're so bloody greedy is horrific.

Dragonzord wrote:

Horst wrote:I told a co worker about 40k today. He seemed to think it was cool. I showed him a few pictures of my models, again he thought it was cool.

Told him a single stormraven cost $82.50.

Zero interest from that point on.

This game is priced well beyond anyone who wants to start.

Exactly the same as my partner. "oh imperial guard look awesome, i wanna play!" then sees the prices and is like 'nahhhhh'

The business these guys are losing coz they're so bloody greedy is horrific.

Saddly, I have several friends in the same boat, a friend of mine really wanted to play Daemons, but upon seeing the price for units he lost almost all interest and only plays off loaner marines.

Go to ebay and go to the discounted warhammer 40k store there. There are actually multiple ones, I got 4 GK terminators boxes for $120

hi guys, anyone thats still buying from GW. i have just seen Rhinos are £22.50.....

if you want a Rhino get the "Sisters of Battle Immolator" - its £22.50 and you can sell all the SOB bits from it, on Ebay.

My brother did this, he got £9 from bits. his Rhino cost him £13.50....

Thank me later

There's also the Razorback kit. Well at least in some places like here where it costs the same as the Rhino for some reason.

Ailaros, that has to be the most biased post I have ever seen re. those models you posted! Although I agree most of the models have improved over time, using something that looks like it has been painted with boxing gloves and chalk is never going to sit well alongside a studio painted picture.

Horst wrote:I told a co worker about 40k today. He seemed to think it was cool. I showed him a few pictures of my models, again he thought it was cool.

Told him a single stormraven cost $82.50.

Zero interest from that point on.

This game is priced well beyond anyone who wants to start.

I agree completely, and I've found myself in the same boat. A friend of mine, with no knowledge at all of wargaming beyond having played 15 years or so again when he was a kid, went into GW to buy a troll as a small birthday present for a friend who had also stopped playing when they were kids. He said he had to practically stop himself from laughing when the store attendant showed him how much money it was.

And the old "well other hobbies are more expensive" line? Where do you stop with it? Right now it's being compared with paragliding, shooting/paintball, souping up cars etc. The thing to point out that 20 years or so ago when I started with wargaming/miniatures, it was a cheaper alternative to buying computer consoles, games and the like, perhaps similar to a bunch of D&D books. Nowadays the relative prices have rocketed right past it - and where do you stop? In another 15 years will we be saying - my other hobby, buying a gaming PC bi-yearly, or hunting humans illegally on the savannah is much cheaper?

Here's the quote I've got to dust off every time someone complains about GW price hikes...

OK, I have one as well..

In light of what I have written above, I think it's only fair to compare GW to the prices of other games within the same industry. So you have the likes of Warmachine/Hordes, Infinity/Malifaux, Dust Tactics etc. There is a long list, but the case in each is that GW's games are by far the most expensive, if you want to collect and play as the maker intended. Yes, of course there is nothing to stop you buying 10 Marines and then spending a couple of months really making them look good (although I would argue there are other miniature lines that would offer far more satisfaction to anyone of an artistic bent), but that's no good for any kid (or otherwise) picking up a copy of WD for the first time, and seeing massive armies of thousands of points worth of miniatures arrayed on the official (again, expensive) terrain.

I first got into games as a child - yes of course the occasional birthday/Xmas present, but you could also buy vehicles and the odd blister pack with a couple of weeks pocket money. And those models could be used more quickly in the games, as the model count was so much lower. Although they came later, the other skirmish type games such as Necromunda, Mordheim, Bloodbowl and the like also allowed new gamers to be bitten by the 'bug' and start a lifelong obsession with tabletop gaming. None of this is the case now, some of the finest games GW has ever produced are sat unsupported in small corner of the website, their play banned in stores, because they allow kids to play without their parents spending hundreds of pounds on starter sets, paints, dice, codecies/army books, terrain, modelling tools... I could go on.
I would argue that such a move by GW is self defeating, and for each price increase for the entry level of the game moves their games further and further away from the average, middle class customer which has served as the major demographic for the company over the past twenty years.

But in any case I think the proof is in the pudding. GW's approach to pricing has allowed new games to muscle in on the market. Local gaming stores, damaged by GW in the 90's with their tactics of denying non-GW stores new releases and favouring their own, have started to make a comeback. And these stores are giving less and less shelf space to GW games. And why is this the case? A parent walking into the store, who has no knowledge of the industry, will look at the various games equally. They will see 'miniatures' and 'paints', and on summing up the totals will see that pretty much every other game is orders of magnitude cheaper than the games that GW offers. With every year that GW continues to put up prices, completely ignorant of the other companies within the industry, this trend will continue. For Australians this will be exacerbated, as most other games are available at their Europe/US equivalent prices.

I write all of this but at the same time think it is such a shame that the whole price issue is continuing to go on. To be honest, it's endemic to company's which have had the lions share of the market for a long time, and have become lazy and fat sitting at the top of it. When Rick Priestly left GW a couple of years ago, he said that there was no acknowledgement at all from the upper brass that there was any competition at all, and I really think this must change for the long term health of the company. I would love to see GW fight back a little - perhaps freeze prices for a year, or introduce some exciting new games/ideas, and let their R&D guys flex their imaginations, rather than just trotting out the same stuff year after year. Dreadfleet, for all of it's foibles, with a start in this direction and I hope GW can continue with something similar in the future.

All this awesome feedback to GW, that will just go ignored...

I wish companies werent like this, but it seems the players want the company to succeed, and be more accessable than the people running the company do..

I agree with you guys, i know a few Friends and Family that love the models and the idear. but even to get 1000 points in any army + codex + Rulebook is well over £200.

as i am sure most people here will use the sites with 25-30% off GW models or ebay.

what i would like to point out is them companys are still making a profit with 30% off. how much are they getting them from GW? how much are we being ripped off?

the game is good, GW have gotten greedy. and Finecast dont even get me started on that crap!

Rant over.

these new units... i went through some of them and compared the US prices to the au prices (well the ork ones anyway) and these made me lol..

Kommandos: AU price - $72. US price - $45
Cannons: AU price - $50. US price - 29.75
Mega-nobz: AU price - $39. US price: 22.25

And yet, even though those units are massivly different in price, we have things like this.

Crusaders: AU price $18. US price - 16.50
Servitors: Au price - $18. US price - 1650
DE prisoners: AU price - $14. US price $13.25

I'd love to know why things like ork meganobs get a $16.25 price increase, or the cannons getting a $20.25 price increase, and yet the 'less important' units getting less than $2?

Wouldnt it make sense to have it be a set % increase, instead of just random numbers?

Also, just for lols.
Razorwing flock.. US price: $16.50 (same as the crusaders and servitors), Au price $28... ($10 more than the crusaders and servitors)

wut.

Edit: At the time of posting this, the exchange rate it 1.00 USD = 0.977613 AUD

Dragonzord wrote:these new units... i went through some of them and compared the US prices to the au prices (well the ork ones anyway) and these made me lol..

Kommandos: AU price - $72. US price - $45
Cannons: AU price - $50. US price - 29.75
Mega-nobz: AU price - $39. US price: 22.25

And yet, even though those units are massivly different in price, we have things like this.

Crusaders: AU price $18. US price - 16.50
Servitors: Au price - $18. US price - 1650
DE prisoners: AU price - $14. US price $13.25

I'd love to know why things like ork meganobs get a $16.25 price increase, or the cannons getting a $20.25 price increase, and yet the 'less important' units getting less than $2?

Wouldnt it make sense to have it be a set % increase, instead of just random numbers?

Also, just for lols.
Razorwing flock.. US price: $16.50 (same as the crusaders and servitors), Au price $28... ($10 more than the crusaders and servitors)

wut.

Edit: At the time of posting this, the exchange rate it 1.00 USD = 0.977613 AUD

If only shipping to australia was reasonable, because I would think that would be a great way to make money, sell right in between the US and AU price

shipping isnt all that bad tbh. Ive got 3 warbiker boxes coming from an ebay seller for $20 postage and 30.93 buy price

(thats $50.93 total... and in stores here the bikers are $62)

So so stupid. I wish i had an american mate that i could send money to and get stuff shipped here, especially the paints.

$3 for paints in the US... $6 here :/

Edit: only problem with Ebay, is that they only sell the 'popular' models... so you dont get the full selection :/

Dragonzord wrote:shipping isnt all that bad tbh. Ive got 3 warbiker boxes coming from an ebay seller for $20 postage and 30.93 buy price

(thats $50.93 total... and in stores here the bikers are $62)

So so stupid. I wish i had an american mate that i could send money to and get stuff shipped here, especially the paints.

$3 for paints in the US... $6 here :/

Edit: only problem with Ebay, is that they only sell the 'popular' models... so you dont get the full selection :/

No kidding, especially if you had a friend that actually sold GW as well. If I had a decent job I would try getting the business stuff from GW

Yeah you'd definatly make alot of money from us australians!

Even i was considering buying alot of US priced stuff on ebay, then selling it in AU at a profit at the local markets...

lol... I know its bad, but I just dropped $170 at my LGS today on more 40k stuff. Its overpriced, but... I can't help it. ($25 store credit from tournament + 10% discount helped me swallow it)

It's likely one of the reasons we got the embargo anyway.

Dragonzord wrote:Yeah you'd definatly make alot of money from us australians!

Even i was considering buying alot of US priced stuff on ebay, then selling it in AU at a profit at the local markets...

Ya, I buy my renaissance festival stuff from europe, good example.
Pilum in the US 400$
Pilum from Germany 100+30$ shipping

It seems like people are ignorant of the fact that it is possible to order stuff from overseas

n0t_u wrote:It's likely one of the reasons we got the embargo anyway.

maybe so But if there was a fair price in the first place we'd have not ordered from overseas anyway! Now we're forced to if we wanna pay less

Just seems that GW put the embargo there was out of spite. Isnt getting 60% of the money from buying overseas, better than 0%?

They really think in the age of the internet that people arent just going to ignore their embargo anyway and find ways around it?

Just glad I bought most of this stuff years ago.

Ignatius wrote:I don't really care at this point.

I'll buy this crap pretty much no matter how much it costs. I like to think of it in these terms:

1st. 40k models are a one time buy and done deal. What I buy today will always be able to be used. Even if the company goes under it doesn't stop me from playing with my friends in the current edition. I think 100 dollars for 10 chaos terminators is a great investment. I get to play as much as I want with them and I get to paint and customize them any way I want.

I am also supporting the company that brought 40k into my life. I love 40k. I love the miniatures I love the rules I love painting I love playing with my pals and I love the fluff. This is a great game. It will always be. But it is just that. A game. Something to get your mind off of other things you are dealing with and become the commander of an army set in our galaxy 38,000 years from now. Great stuff. Maybe you would rather do something for your entertainment that is cheaper, and that's your right. But I prefer this.

I love this game. And I'll pay whatever they want to (basically) to continue to use their great product.

Don't you want more people to get in to the hobby though? More people to play with and against?

Trench-Raider wrote:But Petroleum prices fluxuate up and down from day to day and from year to year. GWs prices do not. Have you EVER heard of them lowering prices? Neither have I. Other companies do. To use Old Glory as an example again, a few years back there was a tin shortage and as a result OG raised their prices a bit. But when doing so, they made the promise that they would lower their prices again should the shortage disapear. Eventually the supply problems were corrected and OG lowered their prices again. GW had also raised their prices at the same time, citing the same reasons. Guess who's prices remained at the new level...until the next price increase of course. Just like they had with the '93 lead scare, GW cynically used a percieved crisis to raise prices. What is it that PoS Rahm Emanuel said a couple of years ago? "Never let a good crisis go to waste"?

I equate GW's practices with those of the airlines. Airline announcement: "Oh noes! Fuel prices have reached level X, we need to start charging Y fee to cover that." All well and good and the prices drop from level X and fee Y never goes away...then 6-8 months later the airlines announce: "Oh noes! Fuel prices have reached level X, we need to start charging Z fee to cover that." This of course expects us to ignore the fact that when prices reached level X before they already had to add fee Y to the equation and never took it away, but now fuel reached that level again they need yet *another* fee to cover the costs that they are really already covered with a previous fee being charged. GW does similar things and you are right their prices never go down and they never do sales either. I saw one GW grand re-opening sale local to me about 12 years ago and they offered everything in the store for 20% off. Up to that point I had never seen the line for the cash register so long before and I never saw it again either. People had arm loads of stuff to buy that day all because of a sale...

I really do love the latest round of increases that increased prices on things that will obviously be more popular in 6th edition, like fortifications of varying kinds. Of course it is due to cost increases. Really it is!

Skriker



Automatically Appended Next Post:

Ignatius wrote:Quite frankly, I don't care.

God forbid someone not agree with everyone else. I'm sorry I don't prescribe to the same ideas as you all.

I don't really have a problem with your position Ignatius. In fact as long as I keep enjoying the figures, the modeling opportunities they present and playing the game with them I'll keep buying too. Prices have dramatically changed in the 25 or so years I have been playing these games, but my income has also increased by a bout 700% from that starting time frame too, so despite prices being higher I can afford to buy even more GW minis than I ever could when I started collecting them in the first place. I haven't yet decided what is too high for me, but I'm sure I'll get there eventually or I'll just find something else to indulge myself with instead and won't really make a "That is it, GW is too expensive!" call at all...

The only concern I have is that it is getting harder to bring new friends into this hobby and have them experience the same modeling enjoyment I get from the hobby. I have multiple armies and can bring anyone in as a player, but it is harder for them to afford to even start the hobby side of the equation now. If I wasn't already involved in 40k I probably wouldn't be able to convince myself to spend the money with the prices today, but since it is a big hobby for me already, I don't have to convince myself to try it at those prices. These days I find people locally shifting to more affordable games like Malifaux where you can get the rules and the minis you need for less than $100, or Warmachine where average force battle sizes are much smaller, or even Flames of War where minis are available in that genre and scale from a multitide of different manufacturers that cover just about every price range. I just bought an entire late war british armored company for about $75 for 2000 points of forces. It is hard to convince folks to pay $600 to have the rules and a full army in 40k when they can do the same thing in Flames of war for about $150. Money talks and makes a big difference for a lot of people.

Skriker

Purifier wrote:

Ignatius wrote:I don't really care at this point.

I'll buy this crap pretty much no matter how much it costs. I like to think of it in these terms:

1st. 40k models are a one time buy and done deal. What I buy today will always be able to be used. Even if the company goes under it doesn't stop me from playing with my friends in the current edition. I think 100 dollars for 10 chaos terminators is a great investment. I get to play as much as I want with them and I get to paint and customize them any way I want.

I am also supporting the company that brought 40k into my life. I love 40k. I love the miniatures I love the rules I love painting I love playing with my pals and I love the fluff. This is a great game. It will always be. But it is just that. A game. Something to get your mind off of other things you are dealing with and become the commander of an army set in our galaxy 38,000 years from now. Great stuff. Maybe you would rather do something for your entertainment that is cheaper, and that's your right. But I prefer this.

I love this game. And I'll pay whatever they want to (basically) to continue to use their great product.

Don't you want more people to get in to the hobby though? More people to play with and against?

What a silly question. Of course I do! I can't think of a better life than coming home from work, throwing down a game of 40k with a couple friends, go fish at sunset with them and do it all again tomorrow.

Do I like paying 50 bucks for 5 models? No, I hate spending money. But I understand that fun costs money (a lot of the time) and for how much fun this gives me, I'm happy to throw my money at GW.

Also Striker, reading that post you quoted me from makes me sound like an ass. I agree with you, but I was using a little bit of sarcasm in it.

I have been playing for less than a year. I'm not adding to my armies anymore and my armies aren't viable lists in the first place so I guess I am done playing. I don't have the money for the new rulebook. A lot of you are quoting long term statistics for inflation. Since I have joined though oil prices have gone down and I have seen 2 price increases not including finecast. I love the sentinel model and planned to get a bunch, and then they raised the price. Guess I will settle for one.

AnotherNoob wrote:I have been playing for less than a year. I'm not adding to my armies anymore and my armies aren't viable lists in the first place so I guess I am done playing. I don't have the money for the new rulebook. A lot of you are quoting long term statistics for inflation. Since I have joined though oil prices have gone down and I have seen 2 price increases not including finecast. I love the sentinel model and planned to get a bunch, and then they raised the price. Guess I will settle for one.

Men, its not all bad, in a few weeks the starter kit will come out and you'll be able to pick up the newmini rulebook for around 15 dollars. As for no longer having valid army lists, that happens every edition shift. As you get more models and more varied models, you can survive edition shifts pretty gracefully. Also 6th didn't mess up 5th lists too badly...

And there is always ebay. Lately I make my big purchases used, and then buy blisters and other stuff from gw to round out my armies. There is no reason to quit if you are still having fun.

Men, its not all bad, in a few weeks the starter kit will come out and you'll be able to pick up the newmini rulebook for around 15 dollars. As for no longer having valid army lists, that happens every edition shift. As you get more models and more varied models, you can survive edition shifts pretty gracefully. Also 6th didn't mess up 5th lists too badly...

And there is always ebay. Lately I make my big purchases used, and then buy blisters and other stuff from gw to round out my armies. There is no reason to quit if you are still having fun.

I think you misunderstood, my lists aren't invalid because of rule changes, they are bad because they have always been bad/ never have been finished. I love modeling and painting more the the game and I can model and paint elsewhere.

Im pissed off about this, but i guess GW can do whatever they want but we still have to buy from them :S

Trench-Raider wrote:A more valid comparison would be to contrast GWs pricing with that of other wargame companies.

It isn't, actually. Looking within only a single industry makes you blind to peculiarities within the industry. It would cause you to make errors similar to noticing the million percent growth rate of scientology over the last 20 years and being unable to see that religion, as a whole, has been decreasing worldwide.

Furthermore, if you're going to make a specific comparison, then you have to make a proper comparison. You can't look at 40k and flames of war and ONLY look at price while ignoring absolutely every other possible factor. There are way too many uncontrolled variables to take any such narrow comparison seriously.

Trench-Raider wrote: I'm not sure were you got your pricing for Space Marine figures, but they are way off.

Here, which if you would actually read posts before replying, you would have come across this information already. The link is to scans of the original packaging. You can clearly see both prices and the number of minis you get in the package.

If you disagree with this, perhaps you could provide some non-anecdotal evidence to the contrary?

Trench-Raider wrote:Finally, the difference in quality between then and now is not the topic of this diccussion.

You don't want to talk about value when talking about price?

The fact is that 40k has gotten a lot better. Larger, more detailed models. Better rules with more comprehensive fluff. More models to choose from. Many, many more gamers to play with. Just talking about price while ignoring what you get for your money doesn't make any sense.

Yes, other games by other companies in other circumstances have different prices, but that's tacit, not outrageous.

Furthermore, if heroclix, confrontation, AT43, and any of the myriad competitors to games workshop are, in fact, so much better, then why is everybody still playing 40k (despite price hikes), and it's more than a little challenging to stay in any other game for more than a couple of years?

Trench-Raider wrote:You really should be ashamed of yourself for posting something so blatantly misleading as to be intellectually dishonest like that, Ailaros.

So kudos to you, son. You successfully emulated the same intelectually dishonest tactic that GW themselves utlitized.

I would say "nice try", but that would be a lie...and I admit that I'm alot of things, but I am not a liar.

Drink that GW koolaid, boy! Choke it down!

Inflation happens. Insulting me to my face doesn't change reality.

The truth hurts. Get over it.

Ignatius wrote:reading that post you quoted me from makes me sound like an ass.

Reason is no cure for anger.

It isn't, actually. Looking within only a single industry makes you blind to peculiarities within the industry. It would cause you to make errors similar to noticing the million percent growth rate of scientology over the last 20 years and being unable to see that religion, as a whole, has been decreasing worldwide.

*yawn*
Wake me, when you have a valid point. The problem is that you are STILL comparing unrelated factors. I was hoping it was just a problem with your logic, but it looks from the rest of your post it's willful deception and misdirection.
Such as...

Here, which if you would actually read posts before replying, you would have come across this information already. The link is to scans of the original packaging. You can clearly see both prices and the number of minis you get in the package.

I did read the post, sport. I also have seen the link to the SoL site. (a favorite of mine) Look at your own link, son. The package scan of the plastic RTB01 Imperial Space Marines shows the sticker price as being 9.99 British pounds. If I recall, the exchange rate at the time hovered at around 2:1. So that box of marine 30 marine models would cost you around 20$US. That's exactly what I stated in my post and is at odds with that you claimed. Now you are just lying....which is not condusive to being taken seriously when it's so easy to check.

The fact is that 40k has gotten a lot better. Larger, more detailed models. Better rules with more comprehensive fluff. More models to choose from. Many, many more gamers to play with. Just talking about price while ignoring what you get for your money doesn't make any sense.

I fully agree that overall the quality has gotten better and I said as much. (although I dislike the "style of many of today's over-cluttered models...but that's another topic) What I objected to is the absurd way you tried to make your point by comparing an awful little kid paintjob to a studio work of a quality level that 99% of gamers will never achieve. That's purposely dishonest...but in keeping with the very tactics that your masters in Notingham have used in the past. Like I said, you've clearly learned well.

As to your other points, there has been an overall increase in the quality of the miniatures industry as a whole. It's not just GW. Look at Wargames Foundry for example. They've always been top noch in the industry, but compare the ranges they produced in the early '90s to the more recent ones. You will see a similar increase in quality. As to the increase in the size of the player base, I would content that this has had more to do with the increased popularity of the internet over the last 15 years or so than anything GW has actually done.

Inflation happens. Insulting me to my face doesn't change reality.

Yes, inflation does happen. But contrary to the excuses for GW you have been trying to peddle here, the overall rate has not been anywere near the 3-600% rate that GW's products have seen in the years since 40k showed up. And it's not just the prices. It's the awful way they have behaved toward their customers, their retailers, and their peers in the gaming industry. But I assume your just fine with their lies about their 100% price increase during the lead scare, their release of new RT core rules material two months before the release of 2nd edition, their "change for the sake of change" policy of forced obsolesence, the bully tactics they use on their competetors, the shutting down of fan web sites, the killing off of online retailers, etc?

By the by, you deserve to be insulted for the intellectually dishonest ways you've been trying to spin GW's behavior up to and including out and out lying.

The truth hurts. Get over it.

The problem is that there is not much truth in your posts, my friend. So I say again, you should really be ashamed of yourself.

TR

Ignatius wrote:Also Striker, reading that post you quoted me from makes me sound like an ass. I agree with you, but I was using a little bit of sarcasm in it.

Don't worry some of us understand the concept of sarcasm. That is how I took it when I read it anyway. Can't guarantee everyone would look at the same way and I am sure some folks did think you were being an ass. I just didn't have time to back up and find your original comments and quote them.

Skriker


Automatically Appended Next Post:

AnotherNoob wrote:I have been playing for less than a year. I'm not adding to my armies anymore and my armies aren't viable lists in the first place so I guess I am done playing. I don't have the money for the new rulebook. A lot of you are quoting long term statistics for inflation. Since I have joined though oil prices have gone down and I have seen 2 price increases not including finecast. I love the sentinel model and planned to get a bunch, and then they raised the price. Guess I will settle for one.

When the new boxed set comes out you should be able to get the 6th edition mini rulebook, without all the modeling and fluffy sections, for about $15 to $20 on ebay. Also ebay is a prime time now to look for minis to fill in your armies with rage quitters dumping their collections in a fit of pique. Ebay is always a good source for 40k minis, as beyond the rage quitters there are always people who are moving on from the hobby or people who want to raise money for a new army selling stuff off there. There are also online options like thewarstore.net where you can get any of the plastic sets for 20% off, but eventually even 20% off gets expensive when the prices get too high.

Skriker


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Ailaros wrote:Furthermore, if heroclix, confrontation, AT43, and any of the myriad competitors to games workshop are, in fact, so much better, then why is everybody still playing 40k (despite price hikes), and it's more than a little challenging to stay in any other game for more than a couple of years?

It all depends on where you are. In my FLGS there are almost never any WFB, LotR or W40k games played at all. There are regular event days for Warmachine, Malifaux and Flames of War and all 3 have a strong following. There are also a ton of Magic and L5R players, with the store being one of the largest L5R coteries in the country with players regularly placing highly in national events. I play 40k at home on my own table because people just aren't interested in my FLGS. Recently the owner sold off all of his 40k stock to a new start up store for cost just to get it out of the way for more stuff for the games that sell.

My own FLGS is not unique in this situation either. Many places have seen GW games drop out of favor primarily because of prices. It is hard to get people into a game with a baseline startup cost of $400-$500 for rules and a baseline army with no options for varied play and that doesn't include any of the modeling/hobby side costs either. And yes direct price comparisons between 40k, Flames of war and others are completely valid as that difference is the primary reason why many people choose not to play 40k anymore. There are still some local stores that push 40k and WFB as much as they can, but the numbers of players just aren't the same. Used to be on league days you could barely move in the stores and they would have 10 full tables in the basement and another 10 going in the main room upstairs, but now everyone fits on the tables in the basement and the crowds are gone. Interest is definitely flagging locally to me even in those long time bastions of GW support.

I have been playing Flames of War for 4 years now, and the contingent of players at my FLGS continues to grow for the game. People see the game played and love it and when they see the prices compared to anything from GW, they are pleasantly surprised that they can get into the game without selling organs on the black market...

Skriker

Easing the pain for our Australian and New Zealand cousins. Buy at UK RRP. Check my sig.

Trench-Raider wrote:
I did read the post, sport. I also have seen the link to the SoL site. (a favorite of mine) Look at your own link, son. The package scan of the plastic RTB01 Imperial Space Marines shows the sticker price as being 9.99 British pounds. If I recall, the exchange rate at the time hovered at around 2:1. So that box of marine 30 marine models would cost you around 20$US. That's exactly what I stated in my post and is at odds with that you claimed. Now you are just lying....which is not condusive to being taken seriously when it's so easy to check.

According to this inflation calculator that I had to use because the Bank of England's one is down (grr government websites), their price today would be £22.08, which is the exact same price as today! By jove.
Problem is, you get 10 less...
So, do you think a modern space marine is worth 1.5 times as much as one of the old ones? Personally I'd say definitely.
Adding on to that, the price of oil (the main componant of plastic) in 1988 was $14.87. Since the models went from 30p to £1.15, a 3.8 fold increase, we can expect the price of oil today to be $56 a barrel, right?

So, do you think a modern space marine is worth 1.5 times as much as one of the old ones? Personally I'd say definitely.

It's subjective/a matter of personal opinion of course. But as far as the original RBT01 plastic Imperial Space Marines compared to the current equivelant, I would agree. Now when you compare the best metals of that era (Jes Goodwin's Eldar, Kev Adam's Space Orks, pretty much anything the Perrys did etc) to the most recent metal miniatures and (especially) the "finecast" stuff, not so much. But let me go over this again...

I'm going to use US pricing here, so pardon me for that. The price for 30 RTB01 Marines circa 1990 was about 20$US. I recall payng 24$ at my local hobby shop in 1990, but that may be either my faulty memory or the local mark-up. But let's run with 20$. For the pendantic "that's annectotal! Prove it!" sort of poster, about three posts up there is a link to a scan of an ad for the TRB01 box showing it's cost at the time of release. Now flash forward to 2012. Now, for some odd reason my workplace firewall is blocking the GW site tonight, while it was not doing so yesterday. So I'll have to link to Amazon instead. Sorry about that.
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000CEM3EA/ref=pd_lpo_k2_dp_sr_1/186-6967057-7908015?pf_rd_m=ATVPDKIKX0DER&pf_rd_s=lpo-top-stripe-1&pf_rd_r=0NXJTZV4AJW429YX7CFH&pf_rd_t=201&pf_rd_p=486539851&pf_rd_i=B000CEM3E0
The full price shown for the Space Marine Combat Squad box is 25$US, which if I'm not mistaken is the same as shown at the GW web store. Now to get the same number of Space Marine models as the RTB01 box provided, you will need to buy six of those Combat Squad boxes at a total cost of 150$US, not including any shipping, assuming you bought it through GW mail order. That is a whopping 750% (my previous estimate was actually too LOW as I was figuring the initial cost at my remembered price of 25$) increase rather than the mere 150% you state above.

So yes. I would gladly pay 1.5 times what they used to cost and call that good deal. But 750%? No way.

Now before anyone points it out and accuses me of being dishonest, yes I know I used a "worst case example" by comparing the original price to the Combat Squad box. (one of the worst rip offs that GW currently sells...the only thing worse being the single plastic Space Marine character boxes) I am aware that ten figure Marine boxes exist in the price range of about 40$. When you use them as a benchmark, you get a 600% price increase instead....which is bad enough. I was illustrating the worse case scenario, as I stated to make a point.

TR

tallerguy wrote:Easing the pain for our Australian and New Zealand cousins. Buy at UK RRP. Check my sig.

But you don't have a sig ATM...

Great White wrote:We should all go to Britain and start a siege at GW HQ.

Occupy GW? The 99% who can't spend $100+ on plastic miniatures?

The main issue here that always makes me chuckle in terms of the wailing and gnashing of teeth about GW price increases, is where many posters on various forums all say "GW are so stupid, increasing prices, people wont buy at those prices, if they halved their prices they would sell twice as much".

However in practice this doesnt work, what happens when you halve the price is that you sell the same amount as you would at the current price but for half the profit.

People dont buy 20 space marines when all they want is 10, but they now get 20 for the price of 10.

People just want to buy the army they want to play with, they are not going to get a 3000 point force just because it costs the same as a 1500 point force would if GW halved their prices etc.

There has also been a lot of talk about inflation and how GW proces are not in line with them. Well they are in line with inflation, but they have also increased with the increased costs of paying staff (minimum wage introduction), costs of materials, R&D on moulds and new models (this is actually one of the most expensive things a company does), all of these have incremental costs which need to be accounted for in price rises, its the same for any company.

Look at VW for example, a golf GTI would have cost you about £12k in 1990 say, now a golf GTI will cost you about £30k, its essentially the same item you are buying, but the new car is leagues better than the car from 20 years ago, and as the average salary increases, so too does the cot of goods, so in effect you are paying a similar amount for your items that you paid 20 years ago.

Also the main issue is GW products are a luxury item, they are not bread and milk, if you cant afford them, well thats a shame, but its not the companies fault, they set the price which research has shown consumers are willing to pay (and plenty still do), its not a charity, its a simple business and they have shareholders to please, and profits to make.

I wish a new audi a3 didnt cost some £35k, as i cant afford it, but thats the situation, and when compared with buying an xbox or ps3 and a few games, GW armies are in no way exceptionally more expensive, and give just as much hours of enjoyment through painting and gaming.

These arguments of price have been stated for some 15 years, GW is still here and folk still buy the models, by the previous internet discussions and expectations of what the price increases would do, GW should have been out of business some 10 years ago!

money for the money god, coins for the throne of currency..

(GW is the hobby wing of the reptillian pyramid of power)

However in practice this doesnt work, what happens when you halve the price is that you sell the same amount as you would at the current price but for half the profit.

While this is probably true of people who weren't going to stop buying anyway, or the addicts who can't stop themselves from buying, I would counter that if the price of GW miniatures was substantially lower (not necessarily so much as 50% lower), I know I would buy something in the neighborhood of 60 or 70 models (or however many models are in an average 2000pt 40K army) instead of the 0 models I have bought in the past two years, and the 0 GW models I intend to buy in the future. It'd also be much easier to attract new blood if the cost of entry was dramatically lowered.

With that said, and like I said at the beginning, there are clearly lots of people who still think it's worth it and people who piss and moan and buy anyway, and as long as there enough of those people to keep things profitable, (really, as long as the shareholders are happy) GW will keep raising prices.

Eventually, though, I have to imagine they'll hit a point of diminishing returns where even diehard fans might start reconsidering the value for money they're getting, but obviously they haven't hit that point yet. And even then, as long as enough people still buy, then it's no skin off of GW's nose. Hypothetically, if they sell (random numbers for argument's sake) 100,000 Tactical Squads at $40 each, but ten years from now (extreme example incoming!) they sell 10 Tactical Squads at $400,000+adjustments for inflation.... well, then sales numbers for that year are as good as they were ten years ago. Heck, probably even better because it'd cost them less to produce fewer models.

If they want substantial long-term growth, I think they're going about it the wrong way, but if they just want to skate along making a tidy profit, then they're probably going to be in good shape for a while.

What makes me chuckle is that every time this subject comes up, some GW apologists pops in with the "it's a luxury product, suck it up!" argument. It's like clockwork. The bottom line is that GW's prices ARE out of line with both the overall rate of inflation and with comparable products in the wargame industry. Here is a great example. Check this out: a box of 30 Perry Miniatures multi-piece plastic Sudan Campaign figures. http://www.perry-miniatures.com/product_info.php?cPath=22_62&products_id=2593
I just bought a couple of these for my own Colonial Wars games and they are very nice....top notch in fact. The sitcker price on these is 18 British Pounds, or about 28$US at today's exchange rate. 30 very nice plastic figures for considerably less than what 10 similar GW figures cost. Before someone tries to make the lame "better quality" argument keep in mind that these are Perry miniatures. For the kiddies out there who have not been around the block, the Perry twins are indisputably some of the best miniatures sculptors in the business. They were responsible for some of GW's best ranges. (before they quit to concentrate on Foundry and eventually break off and found their own company that is..) So that argument does not hold water and the comparison is valid.

The apologists, fanboys, and koolaid drinkers can make all the invalid comparisons, faulty arguments, and in some cases lie all they want. But the facts are not on their side.

That being said, they are right on one point: GW's sickening prices (and other shady behavior) is indeed the fault of their customers because they keep buying the products. I don't. I enjoy the game too much and have too many figures to stop playing, But I have not bought anything new or at full price in years. I troll Ebay for second hand product, use the "counts as" rule to it's fullest extent to make my older stuff valid with current rules, <content removed by an over-zealous Dakka staffer> etc. And I encourage others to do so as well. If enough people did that, GW would change their behavior.

TR

Really, I just vote with my wallet. I don't think GW's stuff is worth what they charge for it, so I don't buy GW's stuff. I don't tell my friends about GW's stuff, or if it comes up I encourage them not to buy it (which isn't hard when they see how much it costs to get started). Other than that, no skin off my nose what they do. Am I bummed about it? Yeah. But I just buy miniatures for and play other games that I (personally, YMMV) enjoy just as much, if not more. They certainly give me far more bang for my buck, IMO (and no, that's not sour grapes, I started playing a couple of other non-GW games while I was still playing Warhammer). I was pretty venomous about it during the last price hike, but I've come to realize that in the long run, it doesn't really matter. It's just a damn game and they're just (expensive, fancy) toys.

I have to kind of chuckle, though, at the people who are all "BAWWW TOO EXPENSIVE" but then still buy it. I'm sure GW is chuckling at them too. In fact, they're laughing, all the way to the bank.

Trench-Raider wrote:What makes me chuckle is that every time this subject comes up, some GW apologists pops in with the "it's a luxury product, suck it up!" argument. It's like clockwork. The bottom line is that GW's prices ARE out of line with both the overall rate of inflation and with comparable products in the wargame industry. Here is a great example. Check this out: a box of 30 Perry Miniatures multi-piece plastic Sudan Campaign figures. http://www.perry-miniatures.com/product_info.php?cPath=22_62&products_id=2593
I just bought a couple of these for my own Colonial Wars games and they are very nice....top notch in fact. The sitcker price on these is 18 British Pounds, or about 28$US at today's exchange rate. 30 very nice plastic figures for considerably less than what 10 similar GW figures cost. Before someone tries to make the lame "better quality" argument keep in mind that these are Perry miniatures. For the kiddies out there who have not been around the block, the Perry twins are indisputably some of the best miniatures sculptors in the business. They were responsible for some of GW's best ranges. (before they quit to concentrate on Foundry and eventually break off and found their own company that is..) So that argument does not hold water and the comparison is valid.

The apologists, fanboys, and koolaid drinkers can make all the invalid comparisons, faulty arguments, and in some cases lie all they want. But the facts are not on their side.

And what comparible products are these, you mean the likes of flames of war, Privateer Press, perry miniatures etc, these are all niche products, when compared with GW's business model, sales wise, they cant afford to charge much higher prices as if people stopped buying their products they would suffer a real risk of struggling as a business, GW's benefit is that they can make revenue from other areas such as books, IP licence use and the old chestnut of "The Brand", that is GW's big trump card, its the name everyone knows, if you ask most people, they will have heard of GW, mention Privateer Press, Malifaux, etc most wont have a clue who they are (these are non gaming people etc.)

Also not all gaming companies that rival GW are massively cheaper, PP sells 5 menoth knights plastic figures in a box, £25, now as you need less miniatures to play a game of warmachine this seems like a deal, but to get 10 marines in a box is about £15 so to get a commander and 2 tactical marines costs you £46 rounded up, to get a warcaster a couple warjacks and 5 infantry models from PP costs £54, this isnt a massive difference in costs to play a basic game, granted these are rough figures i gleaned from internet shops, but the gulf of pricing isnt that massive.

GW is also the only tabletop game that plays on as large a scale in terms of numbers of models, where most other companies work as smaller skirmish games.

As for invalid comparisons, why is a car manufacturer and different from GW, its selling a product, there are different manufacturers offering different things at different prices, some people want a ferrari and can afford it, some people want an audi and cant afford it, some people want a kia but cant afford it, and then there is the second hand market which is a whole other ball game!

By all means buy the models you want, but i always find it odd that people think that GW are going to price themselves out of the market when business history has proven that a lot of people are quite price insensetive, unless there is a HUGE sudden increase, which most businesses wont do, its not like you dont see plenty of new kids in GW whenever i am in and they all have plenty of armies, i would say there are as many kids playing now as there were when i started playing in 1992.

The price increases haven't really upset me that much, however I'm glad they didn't raise prices on everything. At least not hear in the states. However! I would like an explanation as to why they are charging $75 for a Land Raider! Nothing they make is worth that. I refuse to pay $75 for a model, and another 20 or so on paint. When in reality it's only 10 or so dollars worth of plastic and I doubt it cost $65 in man/machine power to produce it. Aside from that, it does not really bother me. Realistically most people will only drop the money for one terminator squad ever. That's why I want to buy as much as I can this year before they raise prices again next June.

Jaeger wulf wrote:

tallerguy wrote:Easing the pain for our Australian and New Zealand cousins. Buy at UK RRP. Check my sig.

But you don't have a sig ATM...

Sorry fixed now. It fell off for a bit

Rick_1138 wrote:
*slurp! Glug* Mmmmm...mmmm that koolaid tastes great!

As the kiddies say, "there, I fixed it for you!"

I will address two of your points though.
I didn't mention any of the games you cited. My example was soley based on the price of very comparable miniatures. Nice sidestep on that one. But now that you mention it, Flames of War is a very good example of a comparable company. FoW has been around for over ten years now and although they can't boast GW's huge market they do have a massive footprint in the gaming world. (at least here in the US) They are big enough now that they feel confident enough to emulate some of GW's less charming tactics: change for the sake of change, game effectiveness based pricing, over-priced hardback rules, strong arming retailers, refering to a "FoW hobby", etc. You might have heard that just this last week they pulled another GW type move and banned non Battlefront miniatures from their events, actually going so far as to state that their customers "don't enjoy their games as much when they see other company's miniatures on the table". So quit trying to play that "GW is expensive because they are in a league all their own" card.

and...

GW is also the only tabletop game that plays on as large a scale in terms of numbers of models, where most other companies work as smaller skirmish games.

You either have no exposure to the world of real wargaming (ie historical games) or you are just making crap up with that statement. Which is it?

Ok, folks, I'm said my peace, countered the tiresome fallacies spread by the apologists, and amused myself enough on this thread. This is my last post on this particular thread. The fanboys may have the last word now. I'm nice that way!

TR

Trench-Raider wrote:

Rick_1138 wrote:
*slurp! Glug* Mmmmm...mmmm that koolaid tastes great!

As the kiddies say, "there, I fixed it for you!"

What you did there...i saw it

Trench-Raider wrote:

I will address two of your points though.
I didn't mention any of the games you cited. My example was soley based on the price of very comparable miniatures. Nice sidestep on that one. But now that you mention it, Flames of War is a very good example of a comparable company. FoW has been around for over ten years now and although they can't boast GW's huge market they do have a massive footprint in the gaming world. (at least here in the US) They are big enough now that they feel confident enough to emulate some of GW's less charming tactics: change for the sake of change, game effectiveness based pricing, over-priced hardback rules, strong arming retailers, refering to a "FoW hobby", etc. You might have heard that just this last week they pulled another GW type move and banned non Battlefront miniatures from their events, actually going so far as to state that their customers "don't enjoy their games as much when they see other company's miniatures on the table". So quit trying to play that "GW is expensive because they are in a league all their own" card.

and...

GW is also the only tabletop game that plays on as large a scale in terms of numbers of models, where most other companies work as smaller skirmish games.

I didnt 'side-step' your comment, i was simply showing its not all "GW costs a fortune, everyone else costs pennies in comparison" that was all, but carry on being facetious if you want.

Trench-Raider wrote:
You either have no exposure to the world of real wargaming (ie historical games) or you are just making crap up with that statement. Which is it?

Ok, folks, I'm said my peace, countered the tiresome fallacies spread by the apologists, and amused myself enough on this thread. This is my last post on this particular thread. The fanboys may have the last word now. I'm nice that way!

TR

I actually was making mention of games in the fantasy and sci-fi settings, historical is a different kettle of fish, but if you want to bring that one in, then the fact you need a lot of minatures to play those games (a friend runs a league locally) the tables are groaning with metal figures, with the boxes being about £15-£20 each, so its not exactly pennies, and from my experience its largely an older demographic that plays historical, though in the US this may be different.

I do like though that i am "Teh Fanboy" because i happen to state that GW isnt the evil empire, they are simply a business, doing 4 years of an Honours degree in management and business tends to show you why what GW is doing, and why other games companies are starting to do the same as they get bigger (FoW and PP) is because it makes them lots of money.

Oh and FoW (Battlefront Mini's) actually u-turned on that decision about not allowing models that are not their own after fan outrage, now its a minimum of 40% must be their models, and since its what keeps them in business, thats not an unfair thing to ask, its the same reason GW is so draconian about its IP controls.

Oh and what is this Kool Aid you speak of, we dont have such things in the UK, we prefer reasoned debate but obviously you prefer a nice tasty beverage and humming real loud.

(Should state its all a bit of banter, we are all friends surely )

Trench-Raider wrote:What makes me chuckle is that every time this subject comes up, some GW apologists pops in with the "it's a luxury product, suck it up!" argument. It's like clockwork. The bottom line is that GW's prices ARE out of line with both the overall rate of inflation and with comparable products in the wargame industry. Here is a great example. Check this out: a box of 30 Perry Miniatures multi-piece plastic Sudan Campaign figures. http://www.perry-miniatures.com/product_info.php?cPath=22_62&products_id=2593
I just bought a couple of these for my own Colonial Wars games and they are very nice....top notch in fact. The sitcker price on these is 18 British Pounds, or about 28$US at today's exchange rate. 30 very nice plastic figures for considerably less than what 10 similar GW figures cost. Before someone tries to make the lame "better quality" argument keep in mind that these are Perry miniatures. For the kiddies out there who have not been around the block, the Perry twins are indisputably some of the best miniatures sculptors in the business. They were responsible for some of GW's best ranges. (before they quit to concentrate on Foundry and eventually break off and found their own company that is..) So that argument does not hold water and the comparison is valid.

The Perry's definitely make some great minis in plastic and metal. I had many of their british naval regiment units from the Sudan line before I eventually sold off my colonial figs because of a lack of other local players interested in the period. The only real difference is that the Perry minis, and other plastic 28mm figs use less plastic because they are true 28mm. That said, though, they are highly detailed and look fantastic. The Perry's aren't only other company out there making quality plastics either. I continue to be amazed by the Perry's output, especially given that one of the brothers blew off his hand while doing Civil War re-enacting with a cannon. Hasn't stopped his sculpting talent in the least. That is pretty darn impressive.

Skriker


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Rick_1138 wrote:And what comparible products are these, you mean the likes of flames of war, Privateer Press, perry miniatures etc, these are all niche products, when compared with GW's business model, sales wise, they cant afford to charge much higher prices as if people stopped buying their products they would suffer a real risk of struggling as a business, GW's benefit is that they can make revenue from other areas such as books, IP licence use and the old chestnut of "The Brand", that is GW's big trump card, its the name everyone knows, if you ask most people, they will have heard of GW, mention Privateer Press, Malifaux, etc most wont have a clue who they are (these are non gaming people etc.)

GW is also the only tabletop game that plays on as large a scale in terms of numbers of models, where most other companies work as smaller skirmish games.

By all means buy the models you want, but i always find it odd that people think that GW are going to price themselves out of the market when business history has proven that a lot of people are quite price insensetive, unless there is a HUGE sudden increase, which most businesses wont do, its not like you dont see plenty of new kids in GW whenever i am in and they all have plenty of armies, i would say there are as many kids playing now as there were when i started playing in 1992.

It is funny, but your reasons for why GW is better off and all their other lines is actually the reason why they need to charge more for their products. The supposed "niche" sellers you describe don't charge as much be cause they don't *have* to charge as much. It costs a lot more to have your own chain of stores, maintain 3 completely separate game product lines, produce novels and other books and so on. Also who cares if non-gamers only know the name of Games Workshop, but not smaller companies. It is not different than non-gamers knowing about D&D and not much else either. The other companies don't need "The Brand" they are succeeding by putting out good rules and decent minis to support them. You don't need to skate on your name when you put out decent products. A lot of those smaller companies also can respond more directly to customer wants and needs that a large publically traded company cannot or will not do.

Not all of the competitor games are "skirmish" games. Flames of War games can be quite large and the game scales a lot better for it as well. We've regularly played FoW multiplayer games with 5-6000 points a size and finished them in an afternoon while a similarly sized 40k game could take all day and into the next. 40k is a skirmish game that tries to pretend that it isn't. Historical gaming in numerous scales has been around a lot longer than 40k has been around and will still be around when 40k finally is gone from the market. Yet, despite that longevity, most historical minis are pretty darn cheap to purchase with some notable exceptions. Also there are numerous manufacturers available for the most popular periods out there so you never stuck spending more than you want to except for lines of some rarer conflicts that aren't as popular.

As for GW's market, they haven't priced themselves out, but they will reach the threshold eventually. There will come a point where even the parents who buy their kids whatever they want will start freaking out when they see the prices. In my area this is already happening. GW games are pretty low priority. Especially with older players who are getting tired of the price increases just because and the stupid power escalation that means that codex lists printed at the beginning of a new rules edition are underpowered by the end of the edition. It is a rare day indeed if *any* GW game gets played in my FLGS. I make plenty of money and still buy GW minis, but I figure one more price increase and I will probably stop giving them my money. It is getting to the point where even I am wondering why I continue to spend money on their products and I've been doing this for a long time indeed. The shift to finecast is one of the last straws for me. Mind you I don't have any issues with finecast itself, but I have a problem with the fact that my usual online ordering sources are not allowed to stock finecast, so more of my specialized purchases now have to be at full price which decreases what I can get for my money. Yes people have been talking about GW going down for a long time, but I am finally starting to see the start of that really happening. Every price increase makes it harder for me to convince new friends to play. They like the models. They think the concept is great, but they look at the prices and walk away every time now.

Skriker


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Trench-Raider wrote:I will address two of your points though.
I didn't mention any of the games you cited. My example was soley based on the price of very comparable miniatures. Nice sidestep on that one. But now that you mention it, Flames of War is a very good example of a comparable company. FoW has been around for over ten years now and although they can't boast GW's huge market they do have a massive footprint in the gaming world. (at least here in the US) They are big enough now that they feel confident enough to emulate some of GW's less charming tactics: change for the sake of change, game effectiveness based pricing, over-priced hardback rules, strong arming retailers, refering to a "FoW hobby", etc. You might have heard that just this last week they pulled another GW type move and banned non Battlefront miniatures from their events, actually going so far as to state that their customers "don't enjoy their games as much when they see other company's miniatures on the table". So quit trying to play that "GW is expensive because they are in a league all their own" card.

On an interesting note the outcry from the Battlefront player community was so loud and negative about this move that Battlefront has backed off of its "You must use our minis in our events" move and are looking at alternatives, like an extra award category to reward those players who do play with full battlefront mini armies instead. That is most definitely not something GW will do. Also I am unsure about the change for change's sake comment. They just released version 3 of the rules and the rules were an improvement over V2 and not just a change. The changes were around areas of the rules that had been questioned and in contention by the players for some time. So a lot of the changes were because of player feedback and not just because they wanted to change them. Some unit changes were specifically because players were abusing certain units and using them in ways that was completely historically inaccurate (like using Brumbars as tank hunters because the rules made them very good at it despite the fact that they were no designed or really effective in that role historically. People were calling them the poor man's tigers because they were cheaper and aside from the lack of a turrey almost as effective when pointed at the enemy. Also they didn't muck with things that worked well either. Responding to their player base is a big area where Battlefront is different than GW, though. When the early war books came out there was a lot of complaints about how a certain force seemed to have an advantage over others and when that force showed up A LOT in the tournement circuir for early war and was quite successful, Battlefront listened to the complaints and made changes. They also provided full color sticker overlays for free to book owners to stick into their books to cover up the replaced rules and points costs with new information. That was pretty classy. If GW ever responds to customer complaints they would never offer up something as useful as those free sticker updates.

I will agree that some 15mm WWII minis are really suck compared to Battlefronts minis, but plenty of them look just as good, if not better, on the table when painted up. Nature of the beast of course when dealing with many different mini manufacturers. Battlefront did get majorly slapped by its customer base for their attempt to make their events "BF minis only, though" and they responded to it instead of just saying "Too bad. Don't like it then don't play."

Skriker

Trench-Raider wrote:This is my last post on this particular thread. The fanboys may have the last word now. I'm nice that way!

Thank god, we can now finally have a reasonable conversation without having someone doing nothing more than calling us all liars to our face over and over.

If the posts you've posted here is the highest quality you can achieve. Be nice in the future and don't bother posting at all.

Rick_1138 wrote:People dont buy 20 space marines when all they want is 10, but they now get 20 for the price of 10.

People just want to buy the army they want to play with, they are not going to get a 3000 point force just because it costs the same as a 1500 point force would if GW halved their prices etc.

This is actually an important point. If anything, GW is learning from the emerging trend of microtransactions. Selling fewer miniatures at lower prices (regardless of the value), allows for a more efficient distribution of product, as people get exactly what they want, when they want it.

I feel like the past two decades have been one of everybody bundling together into "value" products, while we're now living in an era of that system falling apart. Cable companies, for example, are on the verge of splitting up their multi-hundred-channel television bundles into an a la carte system. Heck, even dominoes no longer does its 5-5-5 deal anymore, apparently because it's better for everybody if customers buy the correct amount of pizza for them, rather than being shoehorned into a value deal.

RatBot wrote:I know I would buy something in the neighborhood of 60 or 70 models (or however many models are in an average 2000pt 40K army) instead of the 0 models I have bought in the past two years, and the 0 GW models I intend to buy in the future. It'd also be much easier to attract new blood if the cost of entry was dramatically lowered.

Yes, but talk is cheap. People are quick to say what they would do in perfect circumstances, but are slow to practice what they preach in the real world.

For example here, things on eBay are easily 50% cheaper than things straight from GW. Were your statement actual, rather than theoretical, it would imply that you've made a fair number of ebay purchases in the past two years. Have you? Actually? Or is this just opining and wishing.

GW can't afford to price based on what people want, it can only afford to price based on what people actually pay.

RatBot wrote:I have to imagine they'll hit a point of diminishing returns where even diehard fans might start reconsidering the value for money they're getting, but obviously they haven't hit that point yet.

And this is what's really important. Despite all of these price hikes, it has always been the best decision for GW's financial health to raise prices more. The idea of "peak pricing" hovering over our heads here is like the idea of "peak oil" - the boogeyman that's always hiding just around the corner, and boy are we all going to see it when it rears its ugly head, which will be any minute now, just like the second coming of christ, I promise, it's right here, just you wait.

The fact is that GW will know when it hits any mythical ceiling, as its profits will go down. As it is, they're not, so they haven't.

RatBot wrote:If they want substantial long-term growth...

Then they have to have the ability to invest in their company in the short term. Future growth is created from present profits.

The other thing is Gw know their onions, and they know what sells, hen e the massive SM army imbalance over xenon races, and the Horus heresy being catered for with upcoming FW books n models, and the new 'LOTR" bubble of the hobbit they will have more cash to develop better things, such as the 6th ed rules, full colour, hard bound, and a lovely thing (if heavy) and the injection mold tech where assault on black reach gave us over £100 of models for £45 when originally released. With the next intro box probably going to. E about £70 from what I know is in it, we are looking at about £130 worth of models o buy them seperately. Surely these are great deals for players?

GW is free to set their prices at whatever they want, but at this point, $75 for a Land Raider is an unreasonable amount for me to pay. I expect more and more people are starting to feel the same, so we'll EVENTUALLY see GW react and either reduce prices or stagnate them. There's a fine line between having prices that are too high, and getting maximum profit from the customers you're realistically going to get anyway. It's like how tires provide the most traction at the point right before they lose it =)

Raising the prices to this level does give the less expensive competition a nice boost though.

Trench-Raider wrote:

I'm going to use US pricing here, so pardon me for that. The price for 30 RTB01 Marines circa 1990 was about 20$US. I recall payng 24$ at my local hobby shop in 1990, but that may be either my faulty memory or the local mark-up. But let's run with 20$. For the pendantic "that's annectotal! Prove it!" sort of poster, about three posts up there is a link to a scan of an ad for the TRB01 box showing it's cost at the time of release. Now flash forward to 2012. Now, for some odd reason my workplace firewall is blocking the GW site tonight, while it was not doing so yesterday. So I'll have to link to Amazon instead. Sorry about that.
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000CEM3EA/ref=pd_lpo_k2_dp_sr_1/186-6967057-7908015?pf_rd_m=ATVPDKIKX0DER&pf_rd_s=lpo-top-stripe-1&pf_rd_r=0NXJTZV4AJW429YX7CFH&pf_rd_t=201&pf_rd_p=486539851&pf_rd_i=B000CEM3E0
The full price shown for the Space Marine Combat Squad box is 25$US, which if I'm not mistaken is the same as shown at the GW web store. Now to get the same number of Space Marine models as the RTB01 box provided, you will need to buy six of those Combat Squad boxes at a total cost of 150$US, not including any shipping, assuming you bought it through GW mail order. That is a whopping 750% (my previous estimate was actually too LOW as I was figuring the initial cost at my remembered price of 25$) increase rather than the mere 150% you state above.

That's just stupid. Combat Squads are far more expensive than tactical squads. You may as well compare the old Rogue Trader marines to the Armour Through the Ages pack.

Protip - if you're going to compare the price for two things...make sure they're the same

But why are combat squads far more expensive than tactical squads?

Having just rediscovered 40k after being completely alienated by 3rd edition 15 years ago, I was absolutely gobsmacked when I walked into gw a few weeks back. Aside from the horrendous, down your throat, pushy staff, the prices are absolutely ludicrous - so I did the obvious thing, and have bought every last model of my reasonably big ork army from ebay.

It appears that gw have deluded themselves into thinking they have no competition in their own market - but when nearly every miniature they have sold in the last 25 years is still perfectly useable, it surely doesn't take a genius to work out that they need to actually create an incentive to buy new.

I don't like only ever getting second hand miniatures. I'd rather have new ones - I'd be an easy customer for gw to lure in with competitive pricing or special offers - like in EVERY other retail sector.

A 5 minute browse through these forums would quickly demonstrate to a bright young gw marketing or pricing exec that there must be thousands like me.
The mind boggles.

Wafflecakes wrote:But why are combat squads far more expensive than tactical squads?

They're not. A tactical squad costs $37.25, while a combat squad only costs $25.

The value of the combat squad is worse because you're buying in less bulk, but the up-front cost is lower. As I said before, this is part of a general trend going on right now to un-bundle things in favor of lower value, but lower up-front cost, and more efficient purchasing.

Just getting into 40k here and it's an extremely expensive hobby. $50 for a terminator squad... $40 for a dreadnought...

Wafflecakes wrote:Aside from the horrendous, down your throat, pushy staff

I find the staff the same here in AU. They follow you around the store constantly trying to talk to you and telling you about anything you touch and how 'cool' it is...

Just makes me really uncomfortable that i cant browse in peace :/

Just done a spread sheet and for me to start again with a decent sized force will cost min of 400pounds or 1100pounds for the FW 30k army I want, def used to be cheaper in 2nd.

I will only start up again though on the basis I can get at least a game a week

I live in the NZ as such GW stuff is very dear probably twice the amount some of you other gamers in the USA or Europe pay even when you convert it in the revenant currency. whilst I curse the evil company that makes me pay so much for the models I like to by but sadly I have an addiction to warhammer and I still buy models even though it costs so much though I try to lessen the blow by saving money up each month which is my warhammer 40k fund, buying stuff online though trademe (NZ version of eBay) or waiting for the boxing day sale in other towns where shops that sell GW stuff sometimes have a 20% sale on it. Whilst I know GW has to make a profit what annoys me is why can't they have a sale every so often where the have a certain % off their models or do a buy two get one free obviously knowing GW it will never happen but don' know why the don't as I work in a hardware retail shop (not the same I know) and nothing increases profits or sales than if you have a sale which makes more people buy more stuff since it is cheaper.

This is my own opinion so please don't verbally attack me for my beliefs like what is happening in this thread with some people I love GW and will continue buying stiff it is just the price makes me buy less than I want to hell I only have one army when I want four.

Dragonzord wrote:

Wafflecakes wrote:Aside from the horrendous, down your throat, pushy staff

I find the staff the same here in AU. They follow you around the store constantly trying to talk to you and telling you about anything you touch and how 'cool' it is...

Just makes me really uncomfortable that i cant browse in peace :/

THIS! That is exactly what I can't stand... Constant following, talking bout everything you look twice at, trying to up sell you on EVERYTHING and to leving you to think for a minute or just have a browse.. It's so annoying, and to top it all off, it's the Aussies that started this trend of pushy sales... What I also dislike is if I disagree with the advice of a redshirt, I'm left feeling like I just stabbed someone, as though I couldn't possibly form my own opinion of what I like (such as preferring other brands of paint to GW) ...

Meh, the staff cuts and store downsizes here in Australia sounds like a death knell to the red shirt army... IMHO..

I second that! I switched to war machine a few months back and have had a blast. I can get in more games during a play session, start playing at a MUCH smaller buy-in and slowly build up from there. Also, if I get tired of running mechs, I can switch to Hordes and use war beasts instead and still play against either version.

Let GW hike their prices, they are only hurting their bottom line by pricing out younger interested players who don't have a steady enough income stream to get established into the hobby.

You know, the constant price hiking is really great in one way. Buy a battleforce now. Wait a year or two, trade the battleforce in for more minis at a higher cost, or sell it for a profit online.

Profit from the GW profiteering. :V

Zagblitza wrote:You know, the constant price hiking is really great in one way. Buy a battleforce now. Wait a year or two, trade the battleforce in for more minis at a higher cost, or sell it for a profit online.

Profit from the GW profiteering. :V

was considering this myself. Buy stuff from murricans on ebay, then resell to AU at less than our local price...

I started buying into 40k just as 6th ed came out for necrons. But thats my luck, wait to have a stable job I enjoy, prices go up.
Need 2+ saves, (and this actually happened), get four 1s in a row. I'm that good.

I just don't buy anything new from GW, especially since I'm a sisters of battle player. Total cost of my army has probably hit the $500 range (shipped) total value new is well over $1000 at this point. Go ebay and swap shop! My next army is 'Crons so I figure I'll wait till Tau come out and pick one up cheap used after that I'll just move on to greener and cheaper pastures. Infinity seems rather attractive...

- in other news....

GW annnouced earlier that it is, indeed a business, and that the goal of the business is to make money by selling product based on its IP to gamers.

elsewhere in the world, it was finally decided that if an individual does not want a particular good or service, they are not required to hand over currency to obtain it against their will. this ruling is steeped in controversy, as there are many that believe you should be forced to purchase items you do not want or need. an appeal has been set for the supreme court, but both sides will not comment on this matter until "its had a chance to be reviewed further by both sides"

I'd never buy straight from GW with their pricing. I buy from a LGS I like for small stuff here and there, ebay and online discount stores for large stuff. I've had luck with Craigslist too, got a new, unassembled fresh Hive Tyrant for $20, 3 warriors on the sprue for $20 and 3 Raveners unassembled and fresh for $20.

DarthSpader - I can't take note of anything you write.. your Avatar is just too damn disturbing!!..

Seriously though, I agree with you. Yes, they are no doubt making the share-holders happy, as is the directive of the board. But, that won't stop the reams of complaints from people who remember 'greener pastures' (when you felt like the company was run by gamers, rather than aforementioned board of directors) and who look at the other games on the shelf next to the GW stuff, and wonder why it is so much cheaper.

KalashnikovMarine wrote:I just don't buy anything new from GW, especially since I'm a sisters of battle player. Total cost of my army has probably hit the $500 range (shipped) total value new is well over $1000 at this point. Go ebay and swap shop! My next army is 'Crons so I figure I'll wait till Tau come out and pick one up cheap used after that I'll just move on to greener and cheaper pastures. Infinity seems rather attractive...

Follow the link in my sig, you know you want to!

GhostKnight31 wrote:I live in the NZ as such GW stuff is very dear probably twice the amount some of you other gamers in the USA or Europe pay even when you convert it in the revenant currency. whilst I curse the evil company that makes me pay so much for the models I like to by but sadly I have an addiction to warhammer and I still buy models even though it costs so much though I try to lessen the blow by saving money up each month which is my warhammer 40k fund, buying stuff online though trademe (NZ version of eBay) or waiting for the boxing day sale in other towns where shops that sell GW stuff sometimes have a 20% sale on it. Whilst I know GW has to make a profit what annoys me is why can't they have a sale every so often where the have a certain % off their models or do a buy two get one free obviously knowing GW it will never happen but don' know why the don't as I work in a hardware retail shop (not the same I know) and nothing increases profits or sales than if you have a sale which makes more people buy more stuff since it is cheaper.

This is my own opinion so please don't verbally attack me for my beliefs like what is happening in this thread with some people I love GW and will continue buying stiff it is just the price makes me buy less than I want to hell I only have one army when I want four.

Same boat here. Alas with how things are going, Christchurch will be going from 3 shops (That I know of) down to 1 that will stock GW stuff. The 2 Toyworlds that stocked it have reduced their shop stock of GW things from 3-5 bays down to 1-2 and dropped most units from the armies. I was happy to get Dreadfleet at $100, seemed a great price. But Assault on Black Reach is a joke now. When my brother bought it AOBR was $100, when I got it I paid $135, now its close to $200. I paid $169 for the Eldar Battleforce last year, its $220 now.

If it wasn't for Trade Me, Livewire Games, Comics Compulsion and the recent heavily dropped sale prices at Toyworld I wouldn't bother with 40k in this country.

KalashnikovMarine wrote:I just don't buy anything new from GW, especially since I'm a sisters of battle player. Total cost of my army has probably hit the $500 range (shipped) total value new is well over $1000 at this point. Go ebay and swap shop! My next army is 'Crons so I figure I'll wait till Tau come out and pick one up cheap used after that I'll just move on to greener and cheaper pastures. Infinity seems rather attractive...

Follow the link in my sig, you know you want to!

It's bad enough trying to collect with a low income; but the thing that bothers me so much is how pushy the staff are and how they seem to not understand that we are not made of money or don't want to spend all our disposable income on their products. If you go in for something specific they will try and flog you at least another £50 worth of stuff as if it's nothing! Worst of all is when they do it to the parents of the kids who will obviously cave in to their demands and spend hundreds.
Of course it's better quality now; but I would love to be getting a box of ten for £5 instead of a box of five for over £20 like when I first got into it.

Recently here in the South West a couple stores are now closing for two days a week. I'm glad there's a great gaming centre in town where you're just allowed to get on with things, bring in food and drinks, not be told off for swearing and get a discount on GW products.

Thankfully, my area is free of GW stores, so I don't have to put up with their pushy-ness. It would likely get me snarled at anyway, because when they tried to push something on me that I'm looking at (especially if it's something that's not "new" I would shrug and respond with "Meh, I've been playing this game for 16 years. I know what I'm looking at."

Well then I guess I am lucky, I spent a good 7 hours in my GW store today, 4 employees, they each asked me once if I needed helped, and when I said ''no, just buying paints and looking at the players playing'' they went back to whatever they were doing.

I've never had a problem with pushy sales reps at GW. I frequent the Calgary store, and didn't notice any pushy redshirt following me or anyone else around. They were on hand If I had questions, but otherwise kept to themselves.

In other stores I HAVE encountered the pushy talkative sales
Guy, and a nice "thanks. If I have a question I'll find you" works pretty well. Or the ever classic "I'm just looking" - Wich will also help you ID the pro sales guy vrs the newb, based on how they respond to that. But that's another thing altogether.

AegisGrimm wrote:Thankfully, my area is free of GW stores, so I don't have to put up with their pushy-ness. It would likely get me snarled at anyway, because when they tried to push something on me that I'm looking at (especially if it's something that's not "new" I would shrug and respond with "Meh, I've been playing this game for 16 years. I know what I'm looking at."

Yeah I've not had a problem with that either. I even once said to a young kid in a GW store when he was pushing some uber cool factoid about 40k at me and being REALLY annoying in the process that I had been playing 40k for longer than he had been alive and to please leave me alone so that I could browse in peace.

Got into an OK groove with the manager and he just says hello, chats briefly and leaves me be. Not as much of a problem anymore since the local store for me is run by a single guy now for the most part. He knows what I prefer and that is what I get.

Skriker

pretre wrote:
No idea how this thread has survived this long.

Tell me about it