What do you think of this theory: the Emperor is dead. He died during the Horus Heresy. His body, the body of the most powerful psyker in existence, was bound to the Golden Throne to serve as a control system of sorts to allow its mechanisms to focus the Astronomican, soul-bind Astropaths, and keep the warp portal behind the throne room shut, but the person he was, the Emperor per se is dead and gone. The God-Emperor on the other hand, is the warp god born out of the Imperium's collective belief (very ironic considering the Imperium's original goal was to stop people from doing this) in a divine being watching over them. This entity is what empowers Imperial Saints, miracles, and so forth. It probably existed as far back as the Great Crusade, and its growing power might have prompted the Emperor to order the destruction of Monarchia not just as an example to the Word Bearers and the followers of the Lectitio Divinitatus, but also because it stood against everything he stood for, and eventually might would have compromised his power. An example of this is how Amandera Kerrel banished a daemon by her faith in the God-Emperor, but the Emperor is a psyker, not a warp entity, and its not possible to invoke the aid of another mortal being. Now, as the Emperor still 'lives' it has yet to fully awaken, but the moment the Golden Throne fails and the Emperor's body finally dies, the God-Emperor will fully awake.

Very interesting theory, and one I think would actually work knowing the current fluff that we have.

I like this idea.

Would explain it all so much easier! haha

The residual power from the emperor powers the throne, while the God-emperor looks after humanity and protects it from demons etc.

Von Chogg

I'm pretty sure this is fairly similiar to the Star Child theory.

JohnnoM wrote:I'm pretty sure this is fairly similiar to the Star Child theory.

Pretty much but here the Emperor is split in two from what I can make out.

The nearly dead dude on the Throne and most of his essence in the Warp.

Rather than just having the nearly dead dude on the throne with his essence in the warp



Edit: Bawkses, BAWKSES

Pilau Rice wrote:

JohnnoM wrote:I'm pretty sure this is fairly similiar to the Star Child theory.

Pretty much but here the Emperor is split in two from what I can make out.

The nearly dead dude on the Throne and most of his essence in the Warp.

Rather than just having the nearly dead dude on the throne with his essence in the warp



Edit: Bawkses, BAWKSES

No, I said the Emperor is dead. His body just keeps the Throne functioning as it keeps the body alive - barely. The man himself is dead and gone though. I even theorized Monarchia was an initial attempt to 'kill' the belief that was starting to create the God-Emperor. The God-Emperor is something else. A warp entity similar to the Eldar and Ork Gods, and even the Powers of Chaos.

I have been for a while of the opinion that Living Saints and unexplained events/people like the Sanguinor are literally daemon princes/princesses, or greater daemons of the God Emperor. Because when you look at a living saint, they don't become such until several great deeds, or a long period of service, just like only the greatest followers of chaos become daemon princes, while whatever the hell the Sanguinor is seems a lot like a Greater Daemon, appearing, hacking the enemy apart, and leaving, with no known origin (while there are theories one can't just claim that "X" is the Sanguinor reborn and be confirmed as true).

Buttons wrote:I have been for a while of the opinion that Living Saints and unexplained events/people like the Sanguinor are literally daemon princes/princesses, or greater daemons of the God Emperor. Because when you look at a living saint, they don't become such until several great deeds, or a long period of service, just like only the greatest followers of chaos become daemon princes, while whatever the hell the Sanguinor is seems a lot like a Greater Daemon, appearing, hacking the enemy apart, and leaving, with no known origin (while there are theories one can't just claim that "X" is the Sanguinor reborn and be confirmed as true).

That makes sense.

Tadashi wrote:

No, I said the Emperor is dead. His body just keeps the Throne functioning as it keeps the body alive - barely. The man himself is dead and gone though. I even theorized Monarchia was an initial attempt to 'kill' the belief that was starting to create the God-Emperor. The God-Emperor is something else. A warp entity similar to the Eldar and Ork Gods, and even the Powers of Chaos.

Something that is barely alive is still alive.

If the Emperor knew what was happening, and his eventual ascension to God Emperor, why blow up Monarchia, why even chastise Lorgar?

Pilau Rice wrote:

If the Emperor knew what was happening, and his eventual ascension to God Emperor, why blow up Monarchia, why even chastise Lorgar?

As a warning to stop making people believe and creating an alter-ego of himself. And let me clarify: the God-Emperor and the Emperor are not the same person. The former is a warp god based on the Imperial Cult's beliefs. The latter was the mightiest psyker in existence, but still a man for all that.

Tadashi wrote:

Pilau Rice wrote:

If the Emperor knew what was happening, and his eventual ascension to God Emperor, why blow up Monarchia, why even chastise Lorgar?

As a warning to stop making people believe and creating an alter-ego of himself. And let me clarify: the God-Emperor and the Emperor are not the same person. The former is a warp god based on the Imperial Cult's beliefs. The latter was the mightiest psyker in existence, but still a man for all that.

So everyone in the Imperium is now worshiping someone else, even though they are still directing their praise to the guy on the Golden Throne?

Maybe we have three dudes? The Imperial Cult guy, the nearly dead guy and the guy who is worshiped as the God Emperor.

Edit: My bad, I thought you were referring to the Imperial Truth.

My opinion is that they are the same person for sure, the Lectitio Divinitatus was in direct admiration of the Emperor when he was still walking around. Whether the Emperor liked it or not, he was still believed to be a god by many of his followers.

It seems like a good enough theory to me, although given that no-one has masses of evidence for or against it, I doubt we shall ever know. In fact, I doubt even GW know yet.

Pilau Rice wrote:

Tadashi wrote:

Pilau Rice wrote:

If the Emperor knew what was happening, and his eventual ascension to God Emperor, why blow up Monarchia, why even chastise Lorgar?

As a warning to stop making people believe and creating an alter-ego of himself. And let me clarify: the God-Emperor and the Emperor are not the same person. The former is a warp god based on the Imperial Cult's beliefs. The latter was the mightiest psyker in existence, but still a man for all that.

So everyone in the Imperium is now worshiping someone else, even though they are still directing their praise to the guy on the Golden Throne?

Maybe we have three dudes? The Imperial Cult guy, the nearly dead guy and the guy who is worshiped as the God Emperor.

Edit: My bad, I thought you were referring to the Imperial Truth.

1) Belief in the Imperial Truth will not create a 'god'.
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/460401.page
2) The Emperor was a psyker, and would not have been empowered by belief.

So what about the Emperor's warp presence? What's going on with that, is it gone, is it tied to the man on the throne, what?

htj wrote:So what about the Emperor's warp presence? What's going on with that, is it gone, is it tied to the man on the throne, what?

By my theory, its gone. The God-Emperor protects Human souls, but cannot fully manifest until the Throne fails and the Emperor's body dies.

Tadashi wrote:

Pilau Rice wrote:

Tadashi wrote:

Pilau Rice wrote:

If the Emperor knew what was happening, and his eventual ascension to God Emperor, why blow up Monarchia, why even chastise Lorgar?

As a warning to stop making people believe and creating an alter-ego of himself. And let me clarify: the God-Emperor and the Emperor are not the same person. The former is a warp god based on the Imperial Cult's beliefs. The latter was the mightiest psyker in existence, but still a man for all that.

So everyone in the Imperium is now worshiping someone else, even though they are still directing their praise to the guy on the Golden Throne?

Maybe we have three dudes? The Imperial Cult guy, the nearly dead guy and the guy who is worshiped as the God Emperor.

Edit: My bad, I thought you were referring to the Imperial Truth.

1) Belief in the Imperial Truth will not create a 'god'.
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/460401.page
2) The Emperor was a psyker, and would not have been empowered by belief.

1. Hence my edit and this

My opinion is that they are the same person for sure, the Lectitio Divinitatus was in direct admiration of the Emperor when he was still walking around. Whether the Emperor liked it or not, he was still believed to be a god by many of his followers

2. Why not? He's not your average psyker. He's the reincarnation of a Thousand Pyskers who sacrificed themselves to bring about his being. Also, every human has a presence in the warp but none are worshiped like the Emperor.

Tadashi wrote:

htj wrote:So what about the Emperor's warp presence? What's going on with that, is it gone, is it tied to the man on the throne, what?

By my theory, its gone. The God-Emperor protects Human souls, but cannot fully manifest until the Throne fails and the Emperor's body dies.

But why does it need the body to die? The two are separate entities from what I can gather from what you are saying.

Tadashi wrote:

htj wrote:So what about the Emperor's warp presence? What's going on with that, is it gone, is it tied to the man on the throne, what?

By my theory, its gone. The God-Emperor protects Human souls, but cannot fully manifest until the Throne fails and the Emperor's body dies.

But even an average Eldar could maintain sentience in the warp after death (before Slaanesh). Why would a psyker as powerful as the Emperor just fade away?

I get where Tadashi is going. Pretty much it is like this...

1. The Emperor is an extremely powerful psyker, but is still fully human, he is not a God, he is strong enough to guide the astronomician, but still is only human.
2. The God Emperor is purely a warp entity (think of him/it like a minor chaos god (of law, order, and humanity)) that exists in a similar vain to the big four through direct worship (praying and whatnot) and indirect worship (doing what the Adeptus Ministorum believes the Emperor stands for like killing heretics and xenos).
3. The two are only related because humans automatically combine the latter with the former, besides that they have no real relation.

Am I on the right track?

Now, this is my addition to the theory

4. The God (emphasis on God instead of the regular emperor) Emperor is sentient like the big 4 and is responsible for miracles, living saints (daemon princes of the God Emperor), visions of him (just like chaos talking to people or giving them visions), whatever the hell the Sanguinor is (I imagine he is the equivalent of a greater daemon), and potentially stuff like the Legion of the Damned (lesser daemons perhaps).
5. The appearance of the only known (at least in this theory we will assume he is) greater daemon (Sanguinor) of the God Emperor is based off of what the Imperium would imagine such a savior would look like, which is one of, if not the most revered primarchs in the Imperium, Sanguinius. While what could potentially be called his lesser daemons (Legion of the Damned) appear as adeptus astartes because humanity reveres them.

So yeah, there are two emperors, one is a powerful psyker, the other is the Chaos God of law, order, and humanity. The daemon princ(esse)es of the God Emperor are living saints, his only known greater daemon is the Sanguinor, and his lesser daemons are the members of the Legion of the Damned.

So the Emperor on the Golden Throne fights the God Emperor to protect humanity, because it is a Chaos God?

Pilau Rice wrote:So the Emperor on the Golden Throne fights the God Emperor to protect humanity, because it is a Chaos God?

Emperor on the Golden Throne is a lighthouse, not much else. You ever look at him? He is a bloody mess, it is amazing he can even do that. In all seriousness, I imagine he would oppose the God Emperor simply because it is still a chaos god. Then again he might support the God Emperor since it is purely a human god that still exemplifies many of the things he supported like humanity's manifest destiny. Also if my extreme theories regarding daemons is correct the God Emperor might be what humanity needs more than anything to survive, since daemons are a powerful force even in the material universe.

Pilau Rice wrote:


2. Why not? He's not your average psyker. He's the reincarnation of a Thousand Pyskers who sacrificed themselves to bring about his being. Also, every human has a presence in the warp but none are worshiped like the Emperor.

Pyskers? Seriously?

Buttons wrote:I get where Tadashi is going. Pretty much it is like this...

1. The Emperor is an extremely powerful psyker, but is still fully human, he is not a God, he is strong enough to guide the astronomician, but still is only human.
2. The God Emperor is purely a warp entity (think of him/it like a minor chaos god (of law, order, and humanity)) that exists in a similar vain to the big four through direct worship (praying and whatnot) and indirect worship (doing what the Adeptus Ministorum believes the Emperor stands for like killing heretics and xenos).
3. The two are only related because humans automatically combine the latter with the former, besides that they have no real relation.

Am I on the right track?

Now, this is my addition to the theory

4. The God (emphasis on God instead of the regular emperor) Emperor is sentient like the big 4 and is responsible for miracles, living saints (daemon princes of the God Emperor), visions of him (just like chaos talking to people or giving them visions), whatever the hell the Sanguinor is (I imagine he is the equivalent of a greater daemon), and potentially stuff like the Legion of the Damned (lesser daemons perhaps).
5. The appearance of the only known (at least in this theory we will assume he is) greater daemon (Sanguinor) of the God Emperor is based off of what the Imperium would imagine such a savior would look like, which is one of, if not the most revered primarchs in the Imperium, Sanguinius. While what could potentially be called his lesser daemons (Legion of the Damned) appear as adeptus astartes because humanity reveres them.

So yeah, there are two emperors, one is a powerful psyker, the other is the Chaos God of law, order, and humanity. The daemon princ(esse)es of the God Emperor are living saints, his only known greater daemon is the Sanguinor, and his lesser daemons are the members of the Legion of the Damned.

Thank You for understanding!

As to why the God-Emperor cannot manifest directly until the Emperor's body dies, its because people believe he's the guy on the Golden Throne when he's not. In a sense, the belief that the Emperor will be reborn when the Golden Throne finally fails is correct - only its an alter-ego of sorts that will appear.

Buttons wrote:

Pilau Rice wrote:So the Emperor on the Golden Throne fights the God Emperor to protect humanity, because it is a Chaos God?

Emperor on the Golden Throne is a lighthouse, not much else. You ever look at him? He is a bloody mess, it is amazing he can even do that. In all seriousness, I imagine he would oppose the God Emperor simply because it is still a chaos god. Then again he might support the God Emperor since it is purely a human god that still exemplifies many of the things he supported like humanity's manifest destiny. Also if my extreme theories regarding daemons is correct the God Emperor might be what humanity needs more than anything to survive, since daemons are a powerful force even in the material universe.

His physical body might be decayed and broken but his soul, his presence in the warp, is what is protecting mankind. This notion that there are 2 Emperors seems rather off to me.The God Emperor is the same as the Emperor, true the Emperor did not want to be worshiped as a God, but the masses did anyway. He might only be a psyker, but he is that much of a psyker that if anyone can remain conscious through near death and keep protecting mankind, it would be the Emperor.

Tadashi wrote:
Pyskers? Seriously?!

The Shamans were Psychic, were they not?

Maybe the emperor (man on the throne) was more along the lines of a greater daemon of the God-Emperor.. obviously he was a majorly powerful psycher in his own right, but gained more from his god, in a similar vein to the chaos primachs being mightily powerful beings but ascension to daemonhood made them that one step better..

Could explain why he didnt want the worshipping of the imperium directed at him, as he himself wasnt a god..

Prince of Abyssus wrote:Maybe the emperor (man on the throne) was more along the lines of a greater daemon of the God-Emperor.. obviously he was a majorly powerful psycher in his own right, but gained more from his god, in a similar vein to the chaos primachs being mightily powerful beings but ascension to daemonhood made them that one step better..

Could explain why he didnt want the worshipping of the imperium directed at him, as he himself wasnt a god..

The problem with that is that the Emperor (psychic human) is older than the God Emperor (humanity's chaos god), meaning the former couldn't have been created by the latter. Also, while the emperor (once again, human psyker, not God) is an extremely powerful psyker I don't think worship can directly effect him, since he is still technically a mortal (he isn't a chaos God or greater daemon), and I doubt he has the sheer power to turn regular humans into beings on par with greater daemons relying purely on psychic power (eg. he cannot create a living saint just on his psychic powers).

From now on the God Emperor is "Big E" and the psychic human emperor is "Little E." Also, bow before Buttons, the God of parentheses.

Pilau Rice wrote:

Tadashi wrote:
Pyskers? Seriously?!

The Shamans were Psychic, were they not?

Spelling man, spelling.

Prince of Abyssus wrote:Maybe the emperor (man on the throne) was more along the lines of a greater daemon of the God-Emperor.. obviously he was a majorly powerful psycher in his own right, but gained more from his god, in a similar vein to the chaos primachs being mightily powerful beings but ascension to daemonhood made them that one step better..

Could explain why he didnt want the worshipping of the imperium directed at him, as he himself wasnt a god..

People only started believing in the God-Emperor after Lorgar wrote Lectitio Divinitatus. The Emperor was around for over 30,000 years before the Great Crusade. Impossible for the God-Emperor to have existed before the Great Crusade.

So according to this theory, the shield of faith works through the SoB giving the God Emperor more power, which he then gives back to them by saving them? Fair enough.

Also, I don't think we should consider the legion of the damned to be lesser daemons as such, because it seems they're more powerful but less neumerous than those of the other gods. Instead, I reckon they'd be more like medium-power daemons if you understand what I mean, like flamers of tzeench, or less powerful than a blood crusher.

Tadashi wrote:

Pilau Rice wrote:

Tadashi wrote:
Pyskers? Seriously?!

The Shamans were Psychic, were they not?

Spelling man, spelling.

Whu'? Psyker is the 40K term for a user of psychic powers.

htj wrote:

Tadashi wrote:

Pilau Rice wrote:

Tadashi wrote:
Pyskers? Seriously?!

The Shamans were Psychic, were they not?

Spelling man, spelling.

Whu'? Psyker is the 40K term for a user of psychic powers.

Mr. Rice posted pyskers. PYSKERS.

Oh right. Seems kind of like an over-reaction on your part then.

p_gray99 wrote:So according to this theory, the shield of faith works through the SoB giving the God Emperor more power, which he then gives back to them by saving them? Fair enough.

Also, I don't think we should consider the legion of the damned to be lesser daemons as such, because it seems they're more powerful but less neumerous than those of the other gods. Instead, I reckon they'd be more like medium-power daemons if you understand what I mean, like flamers of tzeench, or less powerful than a blood crusher.

Perhaps, or perhaps they are simply more powerful but less numerous because that is how humanity imagines their saviors (that appear as adeptus astartes) they are always outnumbered, but they win simply because they are the greatest humanity has. Of course I don't mind the medium power daemon theory although I would like to know any ideas on what the lesser daemons are then.

htj wrote:Oh right. Seems kind of like an over-reaction on your part then.

I take it you've never heard of a guy on Dakka named KhornatePysker. Each of threads were troll posts.

No no no.

"Belief" (whatever that means) does NOT create Chaos Gods.

Manchu wrote:No no no.

"Belief" (whatever that means) doe NOT create Chaos Gods.

Do you have any source on that? The Eldar Gods existed as warp entities despite not existing as personifications of emotions or ideals, but merely as idols of worship.

Do you have a cite saying that "belief" does create Chaos Gods? At best, "emotions" rather than "beliefs" are what engender a Chaos God's interest in real space. The Eldar did not worship Slaanesh into existence.

Do you have a cite that the Eldar Gods are in fact warp entities?

Manchu wrote:No no no.

"Belief" (whatever that means) doe NOT create Chaos Gods.

And you're apparently ignoring the fact that the beliefs of the Imperial Cult do strengthen the Emperor in the fluff. Which is the canon foundation for my theory.

Tadashi wrote:And you're apparently ignoring the fact that the beliefs of the Imperial Cult do strengthen the Emperor in the fluff. Which is the canon foundation for my theory.

I'm ignoring it because it doesn't exist anywhere in the published material.

Tadashi wrote:

htj wrote:Oh right. Seems kind of like an over-reaction on your part then.

I take it you've never heard of a guy on Dakka named KhornatePysker. Each of threads were troll posts.

I fail to see the connection between a failed troll, and one of Dakka's more reliable and well spoken posters accidental typoes.

Manchu wrote:

Tadashi wrote:And you're apparently ignoring the fact that the beliefs of the Imperial Cult do strengthen the Emperor in the fluff. Which is the canon foundation for my theory.

I'm ignoring it because it doesn't exist anywhere in the published material.

It does, by reading in between the lines. Of course, its fine if you want to follow the letter, but me and a lot of people would prefer more variety in our enjoyment of 40k.

htj wrote:

Tadashi wrote:

htj wrote:Oh right. Seems kind of like an over-reaction on your part then.

I take it you've never heard of a guy on Dakka named KhornatePysker. Each of threads were troll posts.

I fail to see the connection between a failed troll, and one of Dakka's more reliable and well spoken posters accidental typoes.

My heads grown in size, two posts given me praise in one day ... I'm not sure I can take it

Thanks for your kind words Ser!

Tadashi wrote:

Manchu wrote:

Tadashi wrote:And you're apparently ignoring the fact that the beliefs of the Imperial Cult do strengthen the Emperor in the fluff. Which is the canon foundation for my theory.

I'm ignoring it because it doesn't exist anywhere in the published material.

It does, by reading in between the lines. Of course, its fine if you want to follow the letter, but me and a lot of people would prefer more variety in our enjoyment of 40k.

And others would like to have a more linear, factual account of the background.

Don't get me wrong, I like theories, but ones with some actual substance that make sense. This one seems to ignore the fact that the Emperor is still protecting mankind from the comfort of the Warp, which has been stated in actual material.

Tadashi wrote:It does, by reading in between the lines. Of course, its fine if you want to follow the letter, but me and a lot of people would prefer more variety in our enjoyment of 40k.

LOL, so you'd prefer to make up stuff and pretend that it's what the published sources say? Well, our conversations over the last few days make a lot more sense now.

Manchu wrote:

Tadashi wrote:It does, by reading in between the lines. Of course, its fine if you want to follow the letter, but me and a lot of people would prefer more variety in our enjoyment of 40k.

LOL, so you'd prefer to make up stuff and pretend that it's what the published sources say? Well, our conversations over the last few days make a lot more sense now.

I'm not making it up. Its there in between the lines of the published material. If we stick to the letter of the fluff, what's the point of discussing fluff in the first place at all?

Pilau Rice wrote:

htj wrote:

Tadashi wrote:

htj wrote:Oh right. Seems kind of like an over-reaction on your part then.

I take it you've never heard of a guy on Dakka named KhornatePysker. Each of threads were troll posts.

I fail to see the connection between a failed troll, and one of Dakka's more reliable and well spoken posters accidental typoes.

My heads grown in size, two posts given me praise in one day ... I'm not sure I can take it

Thanks for your kind words Ser!

Then I shall temper it with condescending pity for your living in Reading.

*shakes head condescendingly*




Automatically Appended Next Post:

Tadashi wrote:

Manchu wrote:

Tadashi wrote:It does, by reading in between the lines. Of course, its fine if you want to follow the letter, but me and a lot of people would prefer more variety in our enjoyment of 40k.

LOL, so you'd prefer to make up stuff and pretend that it's what the published sources say? Well, our conversations over the last few days make a lot more sense now.

I'm not making it up. Its there in between the lines of the published material. If we stick to the letter of the fluff, what's the point of discussing fluff in the first place at all?

Which pieces of fluff gave you the impression, though?

htj wrote:

Then I shall temper it with condescending pity for your living in Reading.

*shakes head condescendingly*

That's put me back where I belong, your Lordship

Tadashi wrote:

Manchu wrote:

Tadashi wrote:It does, by reading in between the lines. Of course, its fine if you want to follow the letter, but me and a lot of people would prefer more variety in our enjoyment of 40k.

LOL, so you'd prefer to make up stuff and pretend that it's what the published sources say? Well, our conversations over the last few days make a lot more sense now.

I'm not making it up. Its there in between the lines of the published material. If we stick to the letter of the fluff, what's the point of discussing fluff in the first place at all?

Where exactly? Because there are numerous contradictions and accounts perhaps and other interpretations of actual events?

Tadashi wrote:An example of this is how Amandera Kerrel banished a daemon by her faith in the God-Emperor, but the Emperor is a psyker, not a warp entity, and its not possible to invoke the aid of another mortal being. Now, as the Emperor still 'lives' it has yet to fully awaken, but the moment the Golden Throne fails and the Emperor's body finally dies, the God-Emperor will fully awake.

I just noticed this, at this time the Emperor was alive and not in his current state. If it's the picture from Collected Visions you can actually see the Emperor on the Golden Throne, if I recall.

Pilau Rice wrote:
I just noticed this, at this time the Emperor was alive and not in his current state. If it's the picture from Collected Visions you can actually see the Emperor on the Golden Throne, if I recall.

He's a psyker...a creature of the material universe. You can't invoke his power.

Tadashi wrote:

Pilau Rice wrote:
I just noticed this, at this time the Emperor was alive and not in his current state. If it's the picture from Collected Visions you can actually see the Emperor on the Golden Throne, if I recall.

He's a psyker...a creature of the material universe. You can't invoke his power.

Yet, Eupherati Keeler does exactly the same?

He has a warp presence, where his power comes from and where it's tied too. Maybe they tap into it when they invoke his name, maybe he lends them his power like the Soul Binding with Astropaths but indirectly.

Pilau Rice wrote:

Tadashi wrote:

Pilau Rice wrote:
I just noticed this, at this time the Emperor was alive and not in his current state. If it's the picture from Collected Visions you can actually see the Emperor on the Golden Throne, if I recall.

He's a psyker...a creature of the material universe. You can't invoke his power.

Yet, Eupherati Keeler does exactly the same?

He has a warp presence, where his power comes from and where it's tied too. Maybe they tap into it when they invoke his name, maybe he lends them his power like the Soul Binding with Astropaths but indirectly.

Now why would he do that? He hates religion and acts based on it. There's no way the old man would allow himself to do anything to bolster religious faith. He had Monarchia burnt to the ground, remember?

Either way this is just Tadashi's theory, never has he said this should be taken as cannon. It's just another part of GW letting us believe what we want on certain aspects, encouraging creativity you could say.

As for belief not creating a Warp Entity, if belief is strong enough, it can create some pretty strong emotions. Just think of medieval religious fanatics or people who believe strongly in anything. They will definately have a strong emotional response to that thing. In that sense, with the blind faith and overarching worship of the Emperor throughout the galaxy, I think its perfectly possible that the Emperor's name has become a synonym for hope, and all things nice.

Therefore, a strong enough belief, as I believe the Imperium has in its Emperor, could lead to a God Emperor being created in the warp. The only part I'm not too keen on is the fact that the God entity cannot manifest itself until the human E is completely dead. If they are two completely different things, admittedly linked but not directly, why should the God Emperor need the human Emperor's death to manifest itself?

Tadashi wrote:

Pilau Rice wrote:

Tadashi wrote:

Pilau Rice wrote:
I just noticed this, at this time the Emperor was alive and not in his current state. If it's the picture from Collected Visions you can actually see the Emperor on the Golden Throne, if I recall.

He's a psyker...a creature of the material universe. You can't invoke his power.

Yet, Eupherati Keeler does exactly the same?

He has a warp presence, where his power comes from and where it's tied too. Maybe they tap into it when they invoke his name, maybe he lends them his power like the Soul Binding with Astropaths but indirectly.

Now why would he do that? He hates religion and acts based on it. There's no way the old man would allow himself to do anything to bolster religious faith. He had Monarchia burnt to the ground, remember?

Because he cares about his people? Times were changing during the Heresy, that much is apparent. Monarchia was a totally different situation, and before the outbreak of the Heresy by a number of years. It was a whole city raised in idolatry to the Emperor when the Imperial Truth was the creed of the people. It wasn't just about the Emperor being a God, it was also about the Word Bearers wasting time building cities when they should be bringing the lost humans back to the fold.

So Mr. Rice, you're arguing that miracles, living saints and all that come from the Human Emperor, while claiming that Tadashi is wrong because there is no fluff to support him?

Without trying to sound obnoxious, do you have any fluff saying miracles come directly from the husk on the golden throne?

Lord Rogukiel wrote: The only part I'm not too keen on is the fact that the God entity cannot manifest itself until the human E is completely dead. If they are two completely different things, admittedly linked but not directly, why should the God Emperor need the human Emperor's death to manifest itself?

Because people believe the Emperor is still bound to the Golden Throne. Therefore, the God-Emperor is still shackled until the Human Emperor finally lets go.

Tadashi wrote:

Lord Rogukiel wrote: The only part I'm not too keen on is the fact that the God entity cannot manifest itself until the human E is completely dead. If they are two completely different things, admittedly linked but not directly, why should the God Emperor need the human Emperor's death to manifest itself?

Because people believe the Emperor is still bound to the Golden Throne. Therefore, the God-Emperor is still shackled until the Human Emperor finally lets go.

Does the Human Emperor know he's doing this? And if so, why?

Tadashi wrote:Its there in between the lines of the published material.

No, it isn't.

Tadashi wrote:If we stick to the letter of the fluff, what's the point of discussing fluff in the first place at all?

Because it's interesting?


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Tadashi wrote:There's no way the old man would allow himself to do anything to bolster religious faith. He had Monarchia burnt to the ground, remember?

The Emperor stamps out false religion. Perhaps to pave the way for a true one.


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Lord Rogukiel wrote:... if belief is strong enough, it can create some pretty strong emotions.

You'd do well if you just kept that statement in mind. Belief is not an emotion.

p_gray99 wrote:

Tadashi wrote:

Lord Rogukiel wrote: The only part I'm not too keen on is the fact that the God entity cannot manifest itself until the human E is completely dead. If they are two completely different things, admittedly linked but not directly, why should the God Emperor need the human Emperor's death to manifest itself?

Because people believe the Emperor is still bound to the Golden Throne. Therefore, the God-Emperor is still shackled until the Human Emperor finally lets go.

Does the Human Emperor know he's doing this? And if so, why?

No. In my theory (as Rogukiel said, its just a theory, and not to be taken as canon), the Human Emperor knew of the God-Emperor's existence and sought to prevent it from coming to be by suppressing the Lectitio Divinitatus starting at Monarchia. But the Human Emperor's been dead as a person since the end of the Horus Heresy, so while his ruined body's link to the Golden Throne shackles the God-Emperor (who powers Imperial Saints, miracles, etc. regardless) in the Warp, the Human Emperor is no longer aware of reality.

And before anyone brings up the events at the end of M36, I've checked with Melissa (no thanks to an argument between me and Brother Coa over the Sisters in another forum) and while they did receive visions, that was just be a manifestation of the God-Emperor, and not by the Human Emperor (relative to my theory, of course).

Lord Rogukiel wrote:So Mr. Rice, you're arguing that miracles, living saints and all that come from the Human Emperor, while claiming that Tadashi is wrong because there is no fluff to support him?

Without trying to sound obnoxious, do you have any fluff saying miracles come directly from the husk on the golden throne?

Not at all, I'm pretty sure that there is some stuff about, it's not really my specialty but I like a challenge.

Here goes for a quick look.

Codex Witchhunters: Acts of Faith are a manifestation of the Emperor’s divine purpose; small miracles that can turn the tide of battle if used in the correct combination at just the right moment.

Codex Witchhunters: His Will be Done: The Inquisitor becomes a furious manifestation of the Emperor’s divine will, dispensing His justice with every blow and cowing all His enemies with his holy wrath.

Codex Witchhunters:St Celstine As Celestine’s body was set down amongst the honoured dead, her sisters saw that life lingered within her yet. They saw in her eyes the light of one touched by the divine will of the Emperor, and reverently approached, cleansing her body of the blood and filth of battle until she stood flawless before them.

But the Sororitas, at prayer within the halls of the Convent Prioris were gladdened by the mournful peal, for they knew that had she fallen, Celestine would even now be sitting at the side of the Emperor.

My issue with Tadashis theory is that there are two Emperors. When there is clearly one, who already is protecting mankind.

Tadashi wrote:In my theory (as Rogukiel said, its just a theory, and not to be taken as canon

Sorry, I get a little too into this stuff sometimes.

Tadashi wrote:... that was just be a manifestation of the God-Emperor, and not by the Human Emperor (relative to my theory, of course).

And yet ... the Sisters were taken by the Custodes before the Golden Throne.

Manchu wrote:

Tadashi wrote:Its there in between the lines of the published material.

No, it isn't.

Tadashi wrote:If we stick to the letter of the fluff, what's the point of discussing fluff in the first place at all?

Because it's interesting?

Not really. No point in discussing the matter since all I have to do is look at the codexes and stick to what they say since any form of creativity and interpretation is pointless because the letter of the fluff says otherwise.

Pilau Rice wrote:My issue with Tadashis theory is that there are two Emperors. When there is clearly one, who already is protecting mankind.

Exactly. A theory only deserves as much respect as the evidence that can be marshaled to support it.


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Tadashi wrote:No point in discussing the matter since all I have to do is look at the codexes and stick to what they say since any form of creativity and interpretation is pointless because the letter of the fluff says otherwise.

We have a fiction section on Dakka that might be more to your liking.

Manchu wrote:

Tadashi wrote:No point in discussing the matter since all I have to do is look at the codexes and stick to what they say since any form of creativity and interpretation is pointless because the letter of the fluff says otherwise.

We have a fiction section on Dakka that might be more to your liking.

Right...*read sarcasm*

Manchu wrote:A theory only deserves as much respect as the evidence that can be marshaled to support it.

I agree completely, if it's a matter of whether we believe it's correct or not. However, this thread isn't here to set out cannon, it's simply here to set out some fannon and thus simply be a discussion of what could be the case. Technically no it's not a theory as a theory is the most likely thing, however this is a good idea for how it could work.

Tadashi wrote:Right...*read sarcasm*

No, in all seriousness, if you want to invent new things to make the fluff more interesting for you specifically and people who think like you, this is called "writing fan fiction" and we do have people on this site that enjoy that. DarkLordSeanron, for example, wrote an awesome "death of the Emperor" scenario. Did it match the published fluff? Hell no. Was it still interesting? Hell yes.


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p_gray99 wrote:... this thread isn't here to set out cannon, it's simply here to set out some fannon and thus simply be a discussion of what could be the case.

Take it from a mod, this forum is not for fan fiction.

Manchu wrote:Do you have a cite saying that "belief" does create Chaos Gods? At best, "emotions" rather than "beliefs" are what engender a Chaos God's interest in real space. The Eldar did not worship Slaanesh into existence.

Do you have a cite that the Eldar Gods are in fact warp entities?

Can you prove that the Eldar gods aren't warp entities? The Laughing God can protect the Harlequins from Slaanesh, and Khaine was able to be shattered to pieces, the former might be possible by extremely powerful psychic being (there is no fluff saying that the emperor actively protects humans or their souls, so it is by no means confirmed possible), and the latter doesn't really make sense for anything outside of a powerful psychic being. Your evidence is just as circumstantial as claims that worship does create warp entities, if worship meant nothing, than Slaanesh wouldn't care about humans actually doing perverse stuff, as long as they thought about it, Khorne wouldn't care about anyone taking skulls, and all of the various rituals that Chaos worshipers perform would exist just because.

Your argument essentially argues that "You can't prove your point" while not bothering to prove your own. Show me a page in a book where it says "worship does nothing in the warp." Also, if worship does nothing, what are Imperial Saints? Assuming they aren't some sort of Imperial Daemon (which is probably more likely than my theory) they still need someone to give them the random powers that they got, and it makes no real sense for the emperor to give miracles to the sisters of battle when they hold the exact opposite position as him regarding religion.

Buttons wrote:I get where Tadashi is going. Pretty much it is like this...

1. The Emperor is an extremely powerful psyker, but is still fully human, he is not a God, he is strong enough to guide the astronomician, but still is only human.
2. The God Emperor is purely a warp entity (think of him/it like a minor chaos god (of law, order, and humanity)) that exists in a similar vain to the big four through direct worship (praying and whatnot) and indirect worship (doing what the Adeptus Ministorum believes the Emperor stands for like killing heretics and xenos).
3. The two are only related because humans automatically combine the latter with the former, besides that they have no real relation.

Am I on the right track?

Now, this is my addition to the theory

4. The God (emphasis on God instead of the regular emperor) Emperor is sentient like the big 4 and is responsible for miracles, living saints (daemon princes of the God Emperor), visions of him (just like chaos talking to people or giving them visions), whatever the hell the Sanguinor is (I imagine he is the equivalent of a greater daemon), and potentially stuff like the Legion of the Damned (lesser daemons perhaps).
5. The appearance of the only known (at least in this theory we will assume he is) greater daemon (Sanguinor) of the God Emperor is based off of what the Imperium would imagine such a savior would look like, which is one of, if not the most revered primarchs in the Imperium, Sanguinius. While what could potentially be called his lesser daemons (Legion of the Damned) appear as adeptus astartes because humanity reveres them.

So yeah, there are two emperors, one is a powerful psyker, the other is the Chaos God of law, order, and humanity. The daemon princ(esse)es of the God Emperor are living saints, his only known greater daemon is the Sanguinor, and his lesser daemons are the members of the Legion of the Damned.

I like it.
I wonder if Draigo tried to kill this one yet...?

Manchu wrote:

p_gray99 wrote:... this thread isn't here to set out cannon, it's simply here to set out some fannon and thus simply be a discussion of what could be the case.

Take it from a mod, this forum is not for fan fiction.

Its not fanon. Its one possible interpretation of fluff. If you have a problem, go to GW and ask why the fluff is so contradictory and multi-meaning.

Buttons wrote:Your evidence is just as circumstantial as claims that worship does create warp entities,

Yes. The difference is that I acknowledge that my claims are circumstantial while you say yours are definitive. My position is that we don't know what the Eldar Gods really are. Your position is that we know exactly what they are.

Buttons wrote:Your argument essentially argues that "You can't prove your point" while not bothering to prove your own.

I don't need to prove anything because all I am claiming is that you cannot prove what you are saying. There is absolutely no evidence that worshiping something makes a god in 40k.


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Tadashi wrote:If you have a problem, go to GW and ask why the fluff is so contradictory and multi-meaning.

That sounds more like a problem you must have since you are determined to make stuff up rather than take the sources for what they actually do and do not say.

Wrakkar wrote:

Buttons wrote:I get where Tadashi is going. Pretty much it is like this...

1. The Emperor is an extremely powerful psyker, but is still fully human, he is not a God, he is strong enough to guide the astronomician, but still is only human.
2. The God Emperor is purely a warp entity (think of him/it like a minor chaos god (of law, order, and humanity)) that exists in a similar vain to the big four through direct worship (praying and whatnot) and indirect worship (doing what the Adeptus Ministorum believes the Emperor stands for like killing heretics and xenos).
3. The two are only related because humans automatically combine the latter with the former, besides that they have no real relation.

Am I on the right track?

Now, this is my addition to the theory

4. The God (emphasis on God instead of the regular emperor) Emperor is sentient like the big 4 and is responsible for miracles, living saints (daemon princes of the God Emperor), visions of him (just like chaos talking to people or giving them visions), whatever the hell the Sanguinor is (I imagine he is the equivalent of a greater daemon), and potentially stuff like the Legion of the Damned (lesser daemons perhaps).
5. The appearance of the only known (at least in this theory we will assume he is) greater daemon (Sanguinor) of the God Emperor is based off of what the Imperium would imagine such a savior would look like, which is one of, if not the most revered primarchs in the Imperium, Sanguinius. While what could potentially be called his lesser daemons (Legion of the Damned) appear as adeptus astartes because humanity reveres them.

So yeah, there are two emperors, one is a powerful psyker, the other is the Chaos God of law, order, and humanity. The daemon princ(esse)es of the God Emperor are living saints, his only known greater daemon is the Sanguinor, and his lesser daemons are the members of the Legion of the Damned.

I like it.
I wonder if Draigo tried to kill this one yet...?

Unlikely...seeing as the Knight's faith feeds the God-Emperor as well, he probably wouldn't notice it since its around him.

Manchu wrote:There is absolutely no evidence that worshiping something makes a god in 40k.

Gork and Mork. Orks don't exactly worship them, but they do believe the two exist. 'nuff said.

Doing some picking about and I have some quotes for you, bare in mind, this is OLD stuff from the OLD 1st Ed dex on Eldar.

The warp is an alternative universe inhabited entirely by psychic energy generated by the thoughts, emotions and mental life of the inhabitants of the material universe including the Eldar. These thoughts and emotions cannot die, they are eternal, so that over the ages they accrue and become stronger as they are reinforced by the similar thoughts and experiences of others. Eventually, a single idea or emotion can become so powerful within the warp that it attains a consciousness of its own and becomes a daemon or a god.

So thought, emotions and mental life(?) form in the warp, creating an entity. Does this give credence to Tadashi's theory, I don't believe so. The thoughts created something that hadn't been about before, the Emperor though, is an existing figure that has a presence in the warp.

As the Eldar pursued their road to destruction so their emotional life degenerated into the reckless pursuit of pleasure, exotic experience and intellectual indulgence. The mental energies released into the warp as a result coagulated into an entity, an entity which was potentially very powerful but which was not yet fully conscious. This was, of course, the entity called Slaanesh. Although Slaanesh was not yet fully conscious some Eldar had already begun to worship the god's sleeping form.For centuries the Eldar had predicted the Coming of the Lord of Pleasure, so that many had come to disbelieve the prophets and their endless tales of doom. As the disturbed dreams of Slaanesh began to infiltrate the psychic minds of the Eldar, so their degeneration accelerated apace, further feeding Slaanesh in the warp, and creating an unbreakable cycle of doom. While there were Eldar sane enough to be appalled by the degeneration of their race, their horror kept Slaanesh from achieving full consciousness.

When the cataclysm finally came there were few sane Eldar left on their home planets, only millions of millions of squawking, insane creatures crying and squealing with self-inflicted torment. The quickly-accelerating decline of the Eldar had fed the energy of Slaanesh until the god was ready to burst into consciousness, like a mighty dam about to break and release immeasurable flood waters.

To me this suggests that it's not worship that bought about Slaanesh, but the actions of the Eldar that bought the Dark Prince(hail) into being. Worship is easy, it's actions that matter. It doesn't just apply to Slaanesh, but all Gods in the warp.

Pilau Rice wrote:

To me this suggests that it's not worship that bought about Slaanesh, but the actions of the Eldar that bought the Dark Prince(hail) into being. Worship is easy, it's actions that matter. It doesn't just apply to Slaanesh, but all Gods in the warp.

*snorts*Slaanesh? Tzeentch FTW!

Pilau Rice wrote:To me this suggests that it's not worship that bought about Slaanesh, but the actions of the Eldar that bought the Dark Prince(hail) into being. Worship is easy, it's actions that matter. It doesn't just apply to Slaanesh, but all Gods in the warp.

I strongly agree with this. The Eldar were not worshiping a haemaphrodite god of pride and hedonism, nor were they conceptualising one, but one sprang into being as a response to their decadence. Seems fairly cut and dried to me.

As far as I can tell, the Emperor is a human being. (The whole shaman suicide pact thing is up in the air at this point.) He is first and foremost a denizen of the Materium. Of course, he's quite a special human being.

The question can be summed up in how "miracles" work: do the Sisters receive "blessings" from the Emperor that he actively "sends" or does their faith in him (as a psychological state, plain and simple, no warp magic involved) simply rebuff the daemonic?


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Agreed except for one point:

htj wrote:but one sprang into being took notice of them as a response to their decadence.

Manchu wrote:Agreed except for one point:

htj wrote:but one sprang into being took notice of them as a response to their decadence.

Hmm, coalesced into the form that is generally recognised as Slaanesh? There was definitely a moment of 'birth' as it had consequences that were felt in the warp and the physical plane. Rather than coming from nowhere it was more a... change of state, would you say?

Manchu wrote:[Automatically Appended Next Post:

Lord Rogukiel wrote:... if belief is strong enough, it can create some pretty strong emotions.

You'd do well if you just kept that statement in mind. Belief is not an emotion.

I know, I'm just saying that their intense belief would lead to emotions therefore leading to a warp entity based on the emperor.

And the publish fluff is open to a load of interpretation. As whether this belongs in Fiction or not, well, I'm not a mod... but I believe that we are discussing it as a possible interpretation of the background, not as somebody's established fannon.

htj wrote:Rather than coming from nowhere it was more a... change of state, would you say?

Sort of.

So let's go back to that statement from the OldCron dex, about pre-existing warp entities becoming predators of real space psykers. Army ants are not a predator of humans. But if a human poked at an army ant bivouac, stripped naked, covered himself in honey, and laid down in the path of a billion angry ants -- well, the ants would eat him up. Same thing, regarding the demise of the Old Ones and the "birth" of Slaanesh. The decadance of the Eldar was a like a dinner bell. I think the key word is "inform" rather than "create." Chaos was informed by the decadence of the Eldar such that it responded by tearing into real space and "consuming" their "souls." By "inform" I am thinking of something like how when you jump on a trampoline, the trampoline bends downward under your weight. Your weight does not "create" the force that correspondingly pushes back upwards and yet without exerting your weight downwards, that force would not "go into action." Sorry for all the quotation marks but I want to make sure that anyone reading this knows we're firmly in the realm of metaphor here.

Ready for me to blow your mind?

The emperor is really another chaos god that took the form of a human and mankind belives that he is "good"

The point of chaos is to never have a single powe in control and insted of useing demons to do his work this chaos god took over mankind and uses them as his army.

This why the emperor was so powerful and could stay in the warp after his moral form died and how he impowered all the other psykers

Since all chaos gods are playing the eternal game this move would insure that there would always be a challeger to fight.

Mind =

Manchu wrote:

Buttons wrote:Your evidence is just as circumstantial as claims that worship does create warp entities,

Yes. The difference is that I acknowledge that my claims are circumstantial while you say yours are definitive. My position is that we don't know what the Eldar Gods really are. Your position is that we know exactly what they are.

You were stating your position as though it is definitive.

Manchu wrote:No no no.

"Belief" (whatever that means) does NOT create Chaos Gods.

You didn't say "There is no proof that belief creates or empowers chaos gods", you didn't say "I don't personally believe that belief can create chaos Gods." Yes, my statement was definitive, perhaps I worded it poorly since it shouldn't have been definitive, but don't claim you stated your claims were circumstantial when you stated them as though they were fact.

Yeah. I'd also say that the Emperor is definitely NOT a unicorn. I guess you want a cite for that? How about all the pages.

Manchu wrote:Yeah. I'd also say that the Emperor is definitely NOT a unicorn. I guess you want a cite for that? How about all the pages.

Okay, find anything that says he is human and you have done your job. How about doing the same level of work for proving that worship means nothing to chaos gods. You know, like find a single reference, or even circumstantial evidence beyond just saying "no, you are wrong."

You know, you and I were actually talking about something different: my statement that we don't know whether the Eldar Gods are Warp entities. Also, I have no burden to prove with a citation that the Emperor is not a unicorn or any other ridiculous comment that has no support anywhere in the published fluff.

Manchu wrote:You know, you and I were actually talking about something different: my statement that we don't know whether the Eldar Gods are Warp entities. Also, I have no burden to prove with a citation that the Emperor is not a unicorn or any other ridiculous comment that has no support anywhere in the published fluff.

Except believing that worship empowers warp entities isn't ridiculous by any stretch of the imagination. Also, you could use circumstantial evidence to quickly prove that the emperor is not a unicorn in the fluff. The emperor is frequently called the emperor of man, he is pro-human, and in all artwork he is portrayed as a human or at least looks like a human. Done. If someone didn't think that that was enough proof you could dig something else up, or ask them for any proof to the contrary. I provided proof to the contrary regarding worship doing nothing by bringing up that many individual directly worship chaos, which would be a waste of time if it did nothing, and that the Gods have stupid rituals that do nothing, like Khorne collecting skulls just because.

People who put forth ridiculous notions should be ignored not indulged via argument. That's the ideal. Unfortunately, the ridiculous notions that are not exposed as ridiculous are promulgated by being raised. And then others who don't know any better will adopt them. In this way, ignorance is promoted rather than circumscribed. So the best strategy is to waste as little time as possible: you say no and you go on with productive conversation. The initial point here, about belief generating Warp gods, had already been discussed at length in a slightly different way in other threads with OP and others over the last week or more. I found citations and posted them. Seeing a slightly rephrased but equally silly position posted yet again here, promulgated further, does not merit a rehearing.

And I suppose insulting others' ideas and opinions by calling them ridiculous notions is ok though?

Lord Rogukiel wrote:And I suppose insulting others' ideas and opinions by calling them ridiculous notions is ok though?

Manchu believes that anything that isn't written down in the codexes shouldn't be considered at all, and we shouldn't waste our time trying to interpret the fluff or read between the lines and be creative about it all.

Tadashi wrote:

Lord Rogukiel wrote:And I suppose insulting others' ideas and opinions by calling them ridiculous notions is ok though?

Manchu believes that anything that isn't written down in the codexes shouldn't be considered at all, and we shouldn't waste our time trying to interpret the fluff or read between the lines and be creative about it all.

To be fair, you've yet to cite a source for the basis of the theory. Even inference and speculation should be sourced on materials that support or gave birth to the theory.

The act of worship itself does not feed the Chaos Gods. The act of worship coupled with the beliefs that support said acts, though, do. You can also feed a Chaos God by doing things in accordance with their portfolios, without actually being a worshiper of the Chaos God in question. This is why Khorne is currently the most powerful of the Chaos Gods, because just about everyone, everywhere, is fighting on extremely large scales. Being the Chaos God of War, Bloodlust, Battle and all that sort of stuff, Khorne gets a cut of that.

Of course, for Khorne, the acts of warfare are religious in nature, so in a sense, everyone on a battlefield is worshiping the Blood God.

As to the original topic.... eh... no. The God-Emperor is/was the most powerful human psyker to ever exist. He is so far beyond the alpha-plus end of the scale as to defy categorization and beggar belief and credulity. We cannot say "Well, no, he was just a human psyker, he couldn't do that!" because we have no basis for any real limits on his psychic might. Now that his psychic mind is freed from its mortal shell, he's become even more powerful and, existing as it does in a dimension that is composed entirely of mood-slime, the devotions and worship and fundamental belief of Humanity in his divinity is like fifty jazillion Powerthirst energy drinks going right into your bloodstream ALL THE TIME for his psychic mind.

The Chaos Gods may have struck him down, through Horus, but in so doing, they allowed him to become more powerful than they could possibly imagine.

First the C-3P0 reference and now this. You've been watching Star Wars recently.

this theory kind of explains why the black ships are constantly gathering psykers to martyr. The Emperor seems like the seed with the warp as the dirt and the souls of psykers and the devotion of billions as the fertilizer.

Not recently, no, though it is a good turn of phrase for the topic.

The Black Ships just gather psykers. Not every psyker that boards those ships is fed to the Emperor. Some of them are strong enough to become Astropaths, and a few of them are strong enough to become regular Psykers, of the kind you see attached to IG units, the Inquisition and all sorts of other Imperial organizations.

It's only the really weak ones, those who aren't fit to become even Astropaths, that are fed to the Throne.

Sounds good, though I would have to call that speculation, but a lot of fluff is vague, so speculation is alright, as long as it's based on existing canon. We should also be mindful that speculation is not canon, but GW left things vague so that people can interpret things how they want.

Probably not. If the Emperor became a warp entity on the level of the Chaos Gods some sort of major psychic shockwave would have occurred, like the birth of Slaanesh, but less destructive. Also, if a fifth Chaos God-type entity came into being, the warp would fall out of balance and warp disturbances would become far more common.

DOOMBREAD wrote:Probably not. If the Emperor became a warp entity on the level of the Chaos Gods some sort of major psychic shockwave would have occurred, like the birth of Slaanesh, but less destructive. Also, if a fifth Chaos God-type entity came into being, the warp would fall out of balance and warp disturbances would become far more common.

You have no way to prove that.

DOOMBREAD wrote:Probably not. If the Emperor became a warp entity on the level of the Chaos Gods some sort of major psychic shockwave would have occurred, like the birth of Slaanesh, but less destructive. Also, if a fifth Chaos God-type entity came into being, the warp would fall out of balance and warp disturbances would become far more common.

Eh, except the Warp wasn't falling apart 11,000 years ago before Slaanesh emerged, and Malal was never a powerful enough Chaos God to rival the other three to make it "balanced". That theory.... just doesn't hold in keeping with what else we know.

Wrakkar wrote:

DOOMBREAD wrote:Probably not. If the Emperor became a warp entity on the level of the Chaos Gods some sort of major psychic shockwave would have occurred, like the birth of Slaanesh, but less destructive. Also, if a fifth Chaos God-type entity came into being, the warp would fall out of balance and warp disturbances would become far more common.

You have no way to prove that.

I'm just going by what happened when Slaanesh was born. Before Slaanesh, the Warp was unbalanced, as there were an odd number of Chaos powers, and when Slaanesh was born, the psychic backlash killed most of the Eldar-not that Mankind would necessarily nearly go extinct, but something major would happen, as the Emperor, if he became a warp entity, would be way more powerful than any other Chaos God. I see little difference between what happened when Slaanesh was born and what would happen if the Emperor became a warp god.

the fact that they are 2 separate entities makes no sense when one needs to die for the other to live.

Now saying that The Emp is stuck midway through Ascension is more likely what is happening. Once the throne fails, a new God will emerge and with it shed light into the darkness.

I feel like I'm reading the Imperial Truth thread all over again.

Tadashi, I'm trying to respect your theories (because while I don't agree with them with regards to being possible in the setting, it shows an interesting imagination and some cool ideas)

But there is a HUGE thing holding you back. And it's preventing you from swaying people to your side:

You never give any possible 'kind of maybe' support for your theories. Even when asked for some. Repeatedly. You state your theory very definitively, and where most speculators would back up their theories with evidence (citations, bits of fluff, things like that) that could lend some credence to the theory, you just toss it out there and ask us to read between the lines and believe you.

If you don't even aim us in a direction (like, I dunno, the book that gave you the idea?), the people criticizing your ideas have no reason to agree with you (especially if your theories has a fluff of fluff going against it that is actively being cited)

Maybe if you do that, you'll do better in these exchanges?

I proposed the hypothesis of the split Emperor a while back.

The idea came about as a way to explain the ways that Sanguinor, Draigo, and other imperial apparitions function in such a similar fashion to Daemons, as a "Warp-Emperor's" chosen. (I obviously can't use their function as support here, because thats a pretty house of cards, but not argumentatively sound)

I mostly relied on the Ork belief in Gork and Mork as the basis for the creation of a Warp-Emperor through a collective desire by Humanity.

I would like to further this hypothesis by suggesting the Emperor was created out of the Human Survival Instinct Few base emotions/beliefs/what evercreates chaos gods would be as "strong" as an Imperium filled with little boys and girls all doing whatever they need to do to survive.

All a hypothesis of course, but an interesting one that might merit discussion.

This sounds like the Council of Nicea, is the Father, the Son, and the holy spirit one in the same of three parts, or all three parts not only distinctly separate from one another, but completely so? Does The Emperor, and the God-Emperor really have to be completely separate? No... not really, and so I am on the other side of this theory. I firmly believe that yes, The Emperor was a man with Godlike power, and the God-Emperor did not exist apart from in name until after The Emperor's near death from Horus. Since then, the Emperor has slowly been growing in power in the warp, His great Imperium giving him the necessary resources to continue his eternal struggle against the Great Enemy. Yes, "He is a tiny reed boat cast in a violent ocean, needing 1000 souls fed to him every day to even maintain a grip upon the physical realm", but as he is slowly stripped away on the Golden Throne, He is becoming stronger in the warp and is gradually becoming the God-Emperor, a totally different form, but of the same being and purpose.

Basically what DIDM said.

DOOMBREAD wrote:

Wrakkar wrote:

DOOMBREAD wrote:Probably not. If the Emperor became a warp entity on the level of the Chaos Gods some sort of major psychic shockwave would have occurred, like the birth of Slaanesh, but less destructive. Also, if a fifth Chaos God-type entity came into being, the warp would fall out of balance and warp disturbances would become far more common.

You have no way to prove that.

I'm just going by what happened when Slaanesh was born. Before Slaanesh, the Warp was unbalanced, as there were an odd number of Chaos powers, and when Slaanesh was born, the psychic backlash killed most of the Eldar-not that Mankind would necessarily nearly go extinct, but something major would happen, as the Emperor, if he became a warp entity, would be way more powerful than any other Chaos God. I see little difference between what happened when Slaanesh was born and what would happen if the Emperor became a warp god.

Unless the emperor was already a warp-entity, and that the warp requires uneven numbers to balance.

@Tadeshi In regards to your OP. This is basically what I believe too but I think it's not that clear cut. I don't think The Emperor and The God-Emperor are completely seperate entities. The Emperor basically ascended into Godhood through the power of Trillions worshipping it (and the daily sacrifice of thousands of psykers).

Wrakkar wrote:

DOOMBREAD wrote:

Wrakkar wrote:

DOOMBREAD wrote:Probably not. If the Emperor became a warp entity on the level of the Chaos Gods some sort of major psychic shockwave would have occurred, like the birth of Slaanesh, but less destructive. Also, if a fifth Chaos God-type entity came into being, the warp would fall out of balance and warp disturbances would become far more common.

You have no way to prove that.

I'm just going by what happened when Slaanesh was born. Before Slaanesh, the Warp was unbalanced, as there were an odd number of Chaos powers, and when Slaanesh was born, the psychic backlash killed most of the Eldar-not that Mankind would necessarily nearly go extinct, but something major would happen, as the Emperor, if he became a warp entity, would be way more powerful than any other Chaos God. I see little difference between what happened when Slaanesh was born and what would happen if the Emperor became a warp god.

Unless the emperor was already a warp-entity, and that the warp requires uneven numbers to balance.

We know that isn't true from experience. When Slaanesh was born, the warp was balanced because there was an even number of gods of varied natures, which is why the warp storms that caused the Age of Strife vanished and the Emperor was able to conquer much of the Galaxy in the wake of the Fall of the Eldar. When the Emperor was outside the Golden Throne, and we could definitively say he was alive and not a warp entity, the warp was balanced-and that was the case after the Fall of the Eldar. Additionally, if the Emperor became a warp god, Chaos would get significantly weaker, as the Emperor could overpower any of the other Chaos Gods individually, and could still pose a serious threat to them as a group.

Psienesis wrote:

DOOMBREAD wrote:Probably not. If the Emperor became a warp entity on the level of the Chaos Gods some sort of major psychic shockwave would have occurred, like the birth of Slaanesh, but less destructive. Also, if a fifth Chaos God-type entity came into being, the warp would fall out of balance and warp disturbances would become far more common.

Eh, except the Warp wasn't falling apart 11,000 years ago before Slaanesh emerged, and Malal was never a powerful enough Chaos God to rival the other three to make it "balanced". That theory.... just doesn't hold in keeping with what else we know.

Well, the warp wasn't exactly falling apart, but there were still tons of warp disturbances in realspace, as I mentioned before, and I'm not sure if Malal is still in 40k fluff. Did they add him back in in 6th?

No, they don't own the rights to this Malal dude afaik.

Bloody brilliant man. this is a wicked smart theory I agree 110%

Long read and some spoilers in my theory so early warning;



I think the God Emperor came into being when he made a pact allowing him to create the Primarchs. At least 2 Horus Heresy books make mention of The Emperor making a pact with the Chaos Gods, or to be more blunt Tzeentch (The Primordial Creator. Khorne and Nurgle making the Dual powers for a Primordial Evil), and then reneging on his side of the bargain.

The Emperor was granted power and removed his 'humanity' to be split up and put into the Primarchs, each one being a part of one original greater whole (Hence each one filled a certain role, and certain traits of the 'human' whole), with his humanity taken he was able to ascend to a higher plane of existence. But he would continue to deny his "Godhood" purely because the belief in him being a God, left the door open to other beliefs, which meant the Ruinous Powers would be able to continue to grow in power.

The Emperor would go on to try and use the Webway because by using that Humanity is removed from ever going through the Warp, weakening it and the powers inside. A Thousand Sons tells of how the aether will shape itself into what you 'think'. Its predators are without form until you give them the form which will do YOU the damage. With no one travelling through it, less thoughts are spread into it allowing forms to come into being.

Magnus used power from Tzeentch to 'fix' the flesh change, its entirely possible that The Emperor made a similar pact to complete the Primarch/Astartes process, otherwise he'd be stuck with the Proto-Astartes who although good, were inferior to his plans. Magnus losing an eye in his pact would then make sense, The Emperor failed to pay for what he got, Magnus would have to pay up front and then get what he was after.

Part of the background to my thinking of this was because of Terry Pratchett's Discworld, where a God was virtually as powerful as he/she/it had believers. The Less believers you had, the less power you had. At one point it is recorded Tzeentch was the most powerful of all Chaos Gods, or just simply Gods. He has had many names and many faces but all those that worshipped were worshipping him regardless of who or what he was at the time. Nurgle and Khorne would form a dual role, through blood sacrifice I get death (Nurgle), through death I get blood (Khorne). Tzeentch didn't become their 'equal' til he broke his staff, the very same thing he has been rebuilding since, when it is complete again, he takes his throne.

In the Grey Knights Omnibus and when I started following them, they're power wasn't a psychic gift, it was a beliefs based power. Their belief in the Emperor is what gave them the power to do what they do. Euphrati Keeler took her 'strength' from faith, based upon the idea that the Emperor was a God, The Word Bearers took their original strength from their 'faith', which is how Keeler came into it. The God Emperor strongly denies it to the Word Bearers, they found someone who would listen, they turned, but from there they needed to bring more people into the fold, to strengthen the overall power of Chaos. Tzeentch could gain it from any psyker, any one who followed his earlier forms, any race that still clung to their belief in "Him". Sorcery, in any form, trained and untrained psychic potentials, they all fed Tzeentch. The Eldar put "belief" into their quest for pleasure, eventually it formed itself and a new Chaos God came to be. The Emotions of it weren't enough, belief was needed to seal the deal. If it didn't come from the Eldar seeking pleasure (the later named Dark Eldar mainly), then the form could easily have come from the Eldar who were warning of something bad happening.

So for me, that is where my thoughts went on the Emperor to God Emperor thing. He made a pact, ascended to a higher place and what he took from the pact was combined with his 'mortality' and made into his "sons".

CpatTom wrote:I proposed the hypothesis of the split Emperor a while back.

So did Games Workship, 20ish years ago.

There is some kind of warp-entity/divine power on the side of the Imperium/humanity. This is a fact within the universe.

The Emperor was a real person. Also a fact.

That they are the same being is somewhat ambiguous. This has always been the case.

Oh, gamesworkshop said the "Warp Emperor" was the chaos god of human survival drawing his princes sanguinor and draigo out of the warp to defend his followers?

It was a strenuously constructed theory in an attempt to make draigo "work".

Not that you would have known all that, so apologies before hand if I come off like an ass.

SkyD wrote:Long read and some spoilers in my theory so early warning;



I think the God Emperor came into being when he made a pact allowing him to create the Primarchs. At least 2 Horus Heresy books make mention of The Emperor making a pact with the Chaos Gods, or to be more blunt Tzeentch (The Primordial Creator. Khorne and Nurgle making the Dual powers for a Primordial Evil), and then reneging on his side of the bargain.

The Emperor was granted power and removed his 'humanity' to be split up and put into the Primarchs, each one being a part of one original greater whole (Hence each one filled a certain role, and certain traits of the 'human' whole), with his humanity taken he was able to ascend to a higher plane of existence. But he would continue to deny his "Godhood" purely because the belief in him being a God, left the door open to other beliefs, which meant the Ruinous Powers would be able to continue to grow in power.

The Emperor would go on to try and use the Webway because by using that Humanity is removed from ever going through the Warp, weakening it and the powers inside. A Thousand Sons tells of how the aether will shape itself into what you 'think'. Its predators are without form until you give them the form which will do YOU the damage. With no one travelling through it, less thoughts are spread into it allowing forms to come into being.

Magnus used power from Tzeentch to 'fix' the flesh change, its entirely possible that The Emperor made a similar pact to complete the Primarch/Astartes process, otherwise he'd be stuck with the Proto-Astartes who although good, were inferior to his plans. Magnus losing an eye in his pact would then make sense, The Emperor failed to pay for what he got, Magnus would have to pay up front and then get what he was after.

Part of the background to my thinking of this was because of Terry Pratchett's Discworld, where a God was virtually as powerful as he/she/it had believers. The Less believers you had, the less power you had. At one point it is recorded Tzeentch was the most powerful of all Chaos Gods, or just simply Gods. He has had many names and many faces but all those that worshipped were worshipping him regardless of who or what he was at the time. Nurgle and Khorne would form a dual role, through blood sacrifice I get death (Nurgle), through death I get blood (Khorne). Tzeentch didn't become their 'equal' til he broke his staff, the very same thing he has been rebuilding since, when it is complete again, he takes his throne.

In the Grey Knights Omnibus and when I started following them, they're power wasn't a psychic gift, it was a beliefs based power. Their belief in the Emperor is what gave them the power to do what they do. Euphrati Keeler took her 'strength' from faith, based upon the idea that the Emperor was a God, The Word Bearers took their original strength from their 'faith', which is how Keeler came into it. The God Emperor strongly denies it to the Word Bearers, they found someone who would listen, they turned, but from there they needed to bring more people into the fold, to strengthen the overall power of Chaos. Tzeentch could gain it from any psyker, any one who followed his earlier forms, any race that still clung to their belief in "Him". Sorcery, in any form, trained and untrained psychic potentials, they all fed Tzeentch. The Eldar put "belief" into their quest for pleasure, eventually it formed itself and a new Chaos God came to be. The Emotions of it weren't enough, belief was needed to seal the deal. If it didn't come from the Eldar seeking pleasure (the later named Dark Eldar mainly), then the form could easily have come from the Eldar who were warning of something bad happening.

So for me, that is where my thoughts went on the Emperor to God Emperor thing. He made a pact, ascended to a higher place and what he took from the pact was combined with his 'mortality' and made into his "sons".

Isn't it generally accepted that Warp Gods have no material forms?

DOOMBREAD wrote:
Isn't it generally accepted that Warp Gods have no material forms?

Seeing as the Eldar are supposed to have physically interacted with their gods in the distant past, its certainly possible (if not for the old man) that the Powers could physically manifest in reality.

Tadashi wrote:

DOOMBREAD wrote:
Isn't it generally accepted that Warp Gods have no material forms?

Seeing as the Eldar are supposed to have physically interacted with their gods in the distant past, its certainly possible (if not for the old man) that the Powers could physically manifest in reality.

Well, in the same way as Daemons perhaps, but Chaos Gods probably couldn't also be regular creatures of the material plane.

DOOMBREAD wrote:

Tadashi wrote:

DOOMBREAD wrote:
Isn't it generally accepted that Warp Gods have no material forms?

Seeing as the Eldar are supposed to have physically interacted with their gods in the distant past, its certainly possible (if not for the old man) that the Powers could physically manifest in reality.

Well, in the same way as Daemons perhaps, but Chaos Gods probably couldn't also be regular creatures of the material plane.

Of course not. The Emperor's a psyker, not a god. He made that clear himself, even going so far as to burn a city to the ground or to personally break the faith of the last priest on Ancient Terra.

SkyD wrote:At least 2 Horus Heresy books make mention of The Emperor making a pact with the Chaos Gods,

Yes, both time by daemons trying to convince people to turn against the Emperor. Let's certainly take them at face value and as paragons of honesty.

DarknessEternal wrote:

SkyD wrote:At least 2 Horus Heresy books make mention of The Emperor making a pact with the Chaos Gods,

Yes, both time by daemons trying to convince people to turn against the Emperor. Let's certainly take them at face value and as paragons of honesty.

And Magnus...

Just because info comes from daemon's that doesn't make it 'false' automatically. Look at Othere Wyrdmake, Ahriman told him the truth, he said "No you are a sorcerer, you lie". Ahriman then crippled him by showing him, he in fact was not lying. Everything was true. Then threw Othere to the predators of the aether, vengeance for killing a helpless brother.

Magnus was told by a 'daemon' "You're not all that powerful"... Same 'Daemon' shows up at the end, "Hey, remember me, told you that you were wrong."

Some daemon's just don't make the habit of lying to the person they're talking to. They're honest and the listener is the one who snaps to instant judgement of it being false. So far, every daemon who has told the truth has in fact, told the truth.

The manipulations of the Horus Heresy have been less Warp Orientated and more Astartes orientated. Erebus, Word Bearers, Horus, Space Wolves. Chaos really hasn't had to do much at all, other people have done the job for them.

Tadashi wrote:

DOOMBREAD wrote:

Tadashi wrote:

DOOMBREAD wrote:
Isn't it generally accepted that Warp Gods have no material forms?

Seeing as the Eldar are supposed to have physically interacted with their gods in the distant past, its certainly possible (if not for the old man) that the Powers could physically manifest in reality.

Well, in the same way as Daemons perhaps, but Chaos Gods probably couldn't also be regular creatures of the material plane.

Of course not. The Emperor's a psyker, not a god. He made that clear himself, even going so far as to burn a city to the ground or to personally break the faith of the last priest on Ancient Terra.

But in your theory, you declared that the Emperor may have died and his psychic essence became a warp god. What I was saying is that the Emperor couldn't have become a warp god before his death, which may not have even happened, as I believe.

I'd actually like the OP to go in 7th ed. That would be quite nice. It does seem to fit with the current fluff...