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Some people have argued that the Imperial Truth would never have worked. But while I agree that in the short-term it didn't work, I believe in the long run it would have. Why? Here's why...because gods and daemons don't exist. These so-called 'gods' and 'daemons' are merely energy-based xenos from a parallel universe. They merely feed on the emotions of beings from our universe. If people believed they didn't exist, then the Warp would react to people's belief and make it so - causing the former to revert to mere vortexes of primal emotion with no sentience and the latter into mere embodiments of dreams and nightmares but with no purpose or direction. The biggest evidence for this is the Chaos Power's reaction to the Imperial Truth's spread...if it wouldn't have affected them, why did they react so vehemently, when they have basically largely ignored the material universe until then?

What are your thoughts on the matter?

There only one truth, the imperial one.

why did they react so vehemently, when they have basically largely ignored the material universe until then?

I'm sure the Eldar would disagree with this statement, but as far Humans are concerned then Chaos hasn't had much impact until after Horus Heresy, (they did but to normal ignorant citizen they haven't).

Why? Here's why...because gods and daemons don't exist.

The eldar gave sentient and form to the chaos god Slannesh who nearly destroyed them in the material world and created eye of terror, Chaos already has names and power before Imperial truth came to worlds, also if it was the case then the imperium wouldn't have created the Inquisition and the Grey Knights to fight things that don't exisit.

The biggest evidence for this is the Chaos Power's reaction to the Imperial Truth's spread...if it wouldn't have affected them, why did they react so vehemently,

The Imperial truth is the glue that holds the imperium together, with out it world/sectors would fall to individual leaders who would look after themselves rather then the imperium, as has been told
many times in the past of the imperium, without the imperial truth to hold worlds together, the worlds' would be come easier prey for Chaos to corrupt their beliefs, as has been shown in early
Horus Heresy series were some worlds have fallen to prey to Chaos' power because they were cut off from Earth.

Ravenblade666 wrote:

why did they react so vehemently, when they have basically largely ignored the material universe until then?

I'm sure the Eldar would disagree with this statement, but as far Humans are concerned then Chaos hasn't had much impact until after Horus Heresy, (they did but to normal ignorant citizen they haven't).

Not really. If the Powers had focused on the Eldar before the Imperium was founded, the Eldar would have ceased to exist. But they didn't, not like they do against the Imperium. Simply put, it was only when the Emperor began spreading the Imperial Truth that the Powers actually began to extend themselves into the material universe.

Why? Here's why...because gods and daemons don't exist.

The eldar gave sentient and form to the chaos god Slannesh who nearly destroyed them in the material world and created eye of terror, Chaos already has names and power before Imperial truth came to worlds, also if it was the case then the imperium wouldn't have created the Inquisition and the Grey Knights to fight things that don't exisit.

When I meant 'don't exist', I meant that they're not really gods or daemons. Its just the best way to describe them, and ironically, underlines the power behind the Imperial Truth. If enough people believe they don't exist, the Warp will react and make it so. They will lose form and purpose, becoming mere vortexes of primal emotion/embodiments of dreams and nightmares.

The biggest evidence for this is the Chaos Power's reaction to the Imperial Truth's spread...if it wouldn't have affected them, why did they react so vehemently,

The Imperial truth is the glue that holds the imperium together, with out it world/sectors would fall to individual leaders who would look after themselves rather then the imperium, as has been told
many times in the past of the imperium, without the imperial truth to hold worlds together, the worlds' would be come easier prey for Chaos to corrupt their beliefs, as has been shown in early
Horus Heresy series were some worlds have fallen to prey to Chaos' power because they were cut off from Earth.

You forgot the potential for order and rebirth the Imperial Truth represented.

Not the case. It doesn't matter if we believe that they exist or not, they feed of of human corruption, hate ect, basically everything negative about us. The more we indulge ourselves in our pleasures the more the warp daemons strength grows. The whole reason that the shamans all sacrificed themselves was because of how humanity was. More and more of the shamans stopped being reincarnated because there souls were lost in the turbulant warp. (Turbulant because of human corruption that continued to get worse) the warp used to be a serene calm place with normal creatures. For example imagine a regular grizzly bear in the forest. Now imagine mutating evil turning it into a hulking 20 foot tall giant mouth with eyes growing out of the teeth or something similiar in insanity. With the galaxy at peace the warp would be at peace and it would be back to the calm grizzly bear catchin fish instead of the gaping 20ft maw. However, now that there are chaos daemon gods I don't know how the warp could be fixed. Perhaps the galaxy would be peaceful and non corrupt and then you'd have to kill the greater daemons...

Just like now there are people who believe in the ruinous powers and create planatery uprisings, so would it happen in the imperial truths.
Also, its not just Humans who give powwer to the warp. Eldar Do, Dark eldar dont, Many types of xeno's do.

Brother Thomas wrote:Not the case. It doesn't matter if we believe that they exist or not, they feed of of human corruption, hate ect, basically everything negative about us. The more we indulge ourselves in our pleasures the more the warp daemons strength grows. The whole reason that the shamans all sacrificed themselves was because of how humanity was. More and more of the shamans stopped being reincarnated because there souls were lost in the turbulant warp. (Turbulant because of human corruption that continued to get worse) the warp used to be a serene calm place with normal creatures. For example imagine a regular grizzly bear in the forest. Now imagine mutating evil turning it into a hulking 20 foot tall giant mouth with eyes growing out of the teeth or something similiar in insanity. With the galaxy at peace the warp would be at peace and it would be back to the calm grizzly bear catchin fish instead of the gaping 20ft maw. However, now that there are chaos daemon gods I don't know how the warp could be fixed. Perhaps the galaxy would be peaceful and non corrupt and then you'd have to kill the greater daemons...

Yes, they will to continue to exist, but they will lose purpose, since no one believes in them existing or being gods. As they lose more and more drive, they'll be forces to absorb their respective daemons even as those lose drive along with other unaligned daemons, but ultimately the ressult will be the same: they'll still be there, but they won't be sentient anymore.

hotsauceman1 wrote:Just like now there are people who believe in the ruinous powers and create planatery uprisings, so would it happen in the imperial truths.
Also, its not just Humans who give powwer to the warp. Eldar Do, Dark eldar dont, Many types of xeno's do.

Which is why the Imperium was hell-bent on exterminating them even then. The only xenos the Imperium has absolutely NO CHANCE of exterminating even under the Imperial Truth's progress are the Orks. Tyranids and 'crons will take a while, but it can be done. Orks, best we can do is containment.

The creatures of the warp are not shaped by believe and imagination, but by souls and emotion.

KingDeath wrote:The creatures of the warp are not shaped by believe and imagination, but by souls and emotion.

No, but the Warp is shaped by belief. Theoretically, the Emperor now is much stronger than He was during the Great Crusade because of Mankind's belief in Him as the 'God-Emperor'. The Eldar also created their 'gods' in a similar manner. I never stated that 'daemons' and the Powers of Chaos will actually cease to exist, but if Mankind believed they didn't exist, the Warp's reaction to that would effectively rip their teeth out - they'd still be there, but they'd be reduced to impotence simply because EVERYONE believes they don't exist.

Tadashi wrote:

Yes, they will to continue to exist, but they will lose purpose, since no one believes in them existing or being gods. As they lose more and more drive, they'll be forces to absorb their respective daemons even as those lose drive along with other unaligned daemons, but ultimately the ressult will be the same: they'll still be there, but they won't be sentient anymore.

I think there is a connection between chaos and having humans believe in them, after all they do get power from mortals worshipping them but there doesn't seem to be any connection between this and the chaos gods existence. Sure they may gain power from worship but they don't cease to exist without it. If anything is going to be they main reason for the chaos's interest it would be the fact that the Imperium flies giant metal cities through their plane of existence and constantly tap into it to cast spells.

It seems that humans interactions with the warp is what causes warps interactions with the humans. So the Imperial truth does help minimize humans contact with the warp by getting everyone believing it doesn't exist. But the chaos will always have an interest in the Imperuim as long as humans have emotions and will only stop when they stop flying Starships through their hometown.

The emperor is empowered by believers. The Chaos gods are not powered by believers, but evil and corruption via humans and adhumans

Remember : Ignorance is strength.

The purpose of Imperial Truth was related to social control. Less knowledge of chaos meant less risk of forming chaos cults.

In all purposes, the chaos gods are gods and the daemons are demons. They are real in any definition of real, real enough to shred you to bits, in the Dark Millenium at least.

The Imperial Truth is a lie, just as many dictatorships nowadays, such as North Korea, uphold such lies. Much like Manifest Destiny, it's a way to keep the Imperium together, to squash the heretic, the xenos, the mutant.

The Imperial Truth was, simply put, the equivalent of Stalinian propaganda.

doomworcs wrote:

I think there is a connection between chaos and having humans believe in them, after all they do get power from mortals worshipping them but there doesn't seem to be any connection between this and the chaos gods existence. Sure they may gain power from worship but they don't cease to exist without it. If anything is going to be they main reason for the chaos's interest it would be the fact that the Imperium flies giant metal cities through their plane of existence and constantly tap into it to cast spells.

How may times must I repeat myself: THEY WON'T DISAPPEAR!

Hope, anger, violence, desire, despair, ambition - the Powers will continue to exist, just as dreams and nightmares continue to give birth to daemons. But they will not have drive or purpose because people don't believe they exist.

Tadashi wrote: Why? Here's why...because gods and daemons don't exist.

I think everyone agree's that the beings in the warp will continue to exist regardless of what the humans do but it seems that that the point you bring up is that they won't exist as daemons if people stop worshipping them and they will no longer be interested in humans. I am disagreeing saying that they will always exist as daemons with or without human belief or knowledge.

Of course I could just being missing the point altogether.. surly wouldn't be the first time

I just think all the daemons are pissed because we won't keep our spaceships of their front lawn.

doomworcs wrote:

Tadashi wrote: Why? Here's why...because gods and daemons don't exist.

I think everyone agree's that the beings in the warp will continue to exist regardless of what the humans do but it seems that that the point you bring up is that they won't exist as daemons if people stop worshipping them and they will no longer be interested in humans. I am disagreeing saying that they will always exist as daemons with or without human belief or knowledge.

Of course I could just being missing the point altogether.. surly wouldn't be the first time

I just think all the daemons are pissed because we won't keep our spaceships of their front lawn.

*sighs* they will continue to exist, but the Warp will strip away their 'demonic' purpose because people don't believe in it.

I'm curious, as I haven't read a Daemon codex in a while... but when or where does it ever say their drive as daemons (as opposed to turning into your swirly emotional vortexes) relies on people believing in them? The majority of the Imperium has no idea about the real threats of Chaos (they are likely aware to a limited extent regarding heretics and mutants, but not the true dangers of the Warp)

I was under the impression that their transforming into sentient gods from their former state of emotional vortexes (and their continued existence as gods and daemons) is from intense emotions and the souls. Belief has nothing to do with it. Before the Horus Heresy, the Emperor was one of a very very few who even knew the Chaos gods existed, and they've been around as sentient beings loooooong before that (Khorne, Tzeentch, and Nurgle have been around since M2, our Middle Ages)

Even further, it's not like the Eldar believed in Slaanesh before their total hedonism gave it sentience, purpose, and power.

The drive for Chaos is total domination (both of one god over the other 3, as well as domination over the material world), most of the gods' attention is in the warp, competing with each other for supremacy, and the rest is gaining power in the mortal world through the expression of their given emotion, either by thought or by deed. You'd have to remove bloodshed (for Khorne), imagination/wishes/dreams (for Tzeentch), the fear of death/decay (Nurgle), and pleasure (Slaanesh) to accomplish what you suggest, which would also destroy these beings (since their drive/focus is not derived from our belief in them but from our emotion and souls, which is also what gives them power and sentience).

Tadashi wrote:

KingDeath wrote:The creatures of the warp are not shaped by believe and imagination, but by souls and emotion.

No, but the Warp is shaped by belief. Theoretically, the Emperor now is much stronger than He was during the Great Crusade because of Mankind's belief in Him as the 'God-Emperor'. The Eldar also created their 'gods' in a similar manner. I never stated that 'daemons' and the Powers of Chaos will actually cease to exist, but if Mankind believed they didn't exist, the Warp's reaction to that would effectively rip their teeth out - they'd still be there, but they'd be reduced to impotence simply because EVERYONE believes they don't exist.

The sea of souls is shaped by souls and emotions, not by believe. It didn't turn dark and dangerous because the first sentient lifeforms thought that it had to be this way but because they
butchered each other with glee.

Tadashi wrote:The biggest evidence for this is the Chaos Power's reaction to the Imperial Truth's spread...if it wouldn't have affected them, why did they react so vehemently, when they have basically largely ignored the material universe until then?

Because the Emperor also happened to be devastating the Realm of Chaos with his own immense psychic power at the time. As said in Collected Visions and by Erebus (Or it might have been Ingethel, I forget).

Also, to dispute the godhood of the Chaos Gods is a pointless effort IMO. For all intents and purposes, they are gods. Chaos (Not the Warp) was created by emotion, not worship.

Apperently their is a law of science that if no one belives in you including yourself you dont exist so the imperial truth is that if no one belives there are chaos gods then they dont exist except everyone knows there are chaos gods

orkdestroyer1 wrote:Apperently their is a law of science that if no one belives in you including yourself you dont exist so the imperial truth is that if no one belives there are chaos gods then they dont exist except everyone knows there are chaos gods

That's the thing, the regular daemonic attacks makes the Imperial Truth obsolete. It's attempt to rid humanity of superstition and religion was messed up by the whole Heresy and Chaos incursions.

Also, highly unlikely the gods would stop believing in their own existence. While a lack of active worship could have weakened them, all they need is emotion to maintain their power. And with untold billions of humans, experiencing these emotions every moment of every day, well... Their loss of power would be minimal.

I do think the Imperial Truth could cripple the gods, but for a different reason. The lack of belief wouldn't cripple them (it would sting a bit), but if the Emperor had reached his goal of total logic... humanity would essentially be the Vulcans, living by logic and reason and repressing their emotions. That could have very well struck a crippling, even lethal blow to the powers of Chaos, as the lack of outward emotion would turn off the primary source of their power.

*sighs* so this is why they were called Iterators, they had to repeat the message over and over again. Look, the Warp is fed by emotions, but that doesn't mean it doesn't get affected by belief. Unless, you're telling me the old Eldar Gods and Gork and Mork were felt into existence as opposed to coming into existence by the belief of the Eldar and the Orks? The Warp is a psychic realm - emotions and belief alike shape it. The former will continue to sustain them, but the lack of the latter will reduce 'daemons' and 'gods' alike to paper tigers. Especially if the entire species is composed of psykers - the Emperor was planning to accelerate Human evolution after the Imperial Webway was completed after all.

The existence of the Chaos Gods no more depends on their worship by humans than the existence of humans depends on their worship by paramecia.

Manchu wrote:The existence of the Chaos Gods no more depends on their worship by humans than the existence of humans depends on their worship by paramecia.

Yes, but their influence will wane whether they like or not simply because the Warp will make it happen. Its the Warp, not the Powers that is directly affected by the Imperial Truth. And no matter how powerful they are, the Powers do not have complete control of the Warp - no one has. Not the Emperor, not the Powers, not the Hive Mind, not even the Eldar and Ork Gods. If the Warp starts sapping their strength and influence because people believe the beings of the Warp do not have an effect on reality, there's nothing they can do about it.

The Warp is Chaos. Chaos is the Warp. The emotional impact of real space beings on the Immaterium merely draws the attention of the Warp -- the particular character of the distraction that causes Chaos to "turn its head" towards real space beings affects which of the Four Faces will consequently peer into the Materium. The puny rationalizations of real space beings are completely inconsequential. Their beliefs mean nothing to the Ruinous Powers. All the terrible acts carried out in worship of them are nothing more than mostly feeble attempts to catch their fleeting whimsy. If no mortal being ever called them "god" again, they would likely interfere less with the Materium -- but only because their attention would be elsewhere.

To them, the entirety of real space is something like a radio playing in a neighbor's house. You might only notice it when its turned up loud and your neighbor's windows are open. Even then you'd probably only care if they were playing songs you loved. If they were playing stuff you didn't care about or hated, you'd just close your window and tune it out. With that analogy in mind, think of the Great Crusade: billions of lives caught up in violence, facing death and the desire for power, all according to labyrinthine secret plans. The Emperor was in fact playing the Four's favorite songs. He was trying to get their attention.

Manchu wrote:The Warp is Chaos. Chaos is the Warp. The emotional impact of real space beings on the Immaterium merely draws the attention of the Warp -- the particular character of the distraction that causes Chaos to "turn its head" towards real space beings affects which of the Four Faces will consequently peer into the Materium. The puny rationalizations of real space beings are completely inconsequential. Their beliefs mean nothing to the Ruinous Powers. All the terrible acts carried out in worship of them are nothing more than mostly feeble attempts to catch their fleeting whimsy. If no mortal being ever called them "god" again, they would likely interfere less with the Materium -- but only because their attention would be elsewhere.

To them, the entirety of real space is something like a radio playing in a neighbor's house. You might only notice it when its turned up loud and your neighbor's windows are open. Even then you'd probably only care if they were playing songs you loved. If they were playing stuff you didn't care about or hated, you'd just close your window and tune it out. With that analogy in mind, think of the Great Crusade: billions of lives caught up in violence, facing death and the desire for power, all according to labyrinthine secret plans. The Emperor was in fact playing the Four's favorite songs. He was trying to get their attention.

No, they are not. If that were the case, every 'god' would be a Chaos Power simply because they're part of the Warp too. That would include the Eldar and Ork Gods, and even the Emperor in His original form before He was born in a physical body. And you forget Mankind was already bleeding to death along with so many other species long before the Great Crusade during the constant anarchy of Old Night.

Tadashi wrote:*sighs* so this is why they were called Iterators, they had to repeat the message over and over again. Look, the Warp is fed by emotions, but that doesn't mean it doesn't get affected by belief. Unless, you're telling me the old Eldar Gods and Gork and Mork were felt into existence as opposed to coming into existence by the belief of the Eldar and the Orks? The Warp is a psychic realm - emotions and belief alike shape it. The former will continue to sustain them, but the lack of the latter will reduce 'daemons' and 'gods' alike to paper tigers. Especially if the entire species is composed of psykers - the Emperor was planning to accelerate Human evolution after the Imperial Webway was completed after all.

Stop sighing, it doesn't have the same effect in type, and it just comes across as condescending. Okay:

a) that iterator point isn't connected to your argument, they were just spreading the Imperial truth, and have nothing to do with what you're saying here.

b) I'm not saying the Eldar gods (or Gork/Mork) were 'felt' into existence (primarily because I don't know enough about the Eldar's gods to say if they were even just myths or not, and Gork/Mork don't have much fluff tied to them beyond be kunning/brutal). However, it has been repeatedly stated that the Gods of Chaos came into power/sentience/being because (and only because) of intense emotion reaching into the Warp. Barely anybody were even aware of their existence before the Horus Heresy (it's not like the Eldar believed in Slaanesh before he was born and ripped them a new one). They gained in power as the galaxy grew and prospered.

c) I dunno about your sources (is there any fluff to support this?), but according to the CSM codex, it is explicitly stated (on page 8, I might add) that they only grow in power from the actions/thoughts of mortals. essentially if they behave in a way that feeds the god. Belief has no connection to it. It might weaken the gods if the Imperial Truth turned the humans into a more Vulcan outlook (with much more suppressed emotions), but not believing in them isn't the key. The Warp is dreams, nightmares, hopes and emotion. Belief isn't a part of it.

d) You act like they aren't technically gods in this setting. They are. For all intents and purposes, they are gods, and their servants, made from Warpstuff and a fragment of the god's power, they are called daemons. Changing that title doesn't change this. And not believing in them didn't stop them from starting the Horus Heresy, wrecking the Eldar, and totally messing up Mankind with legions of daemons nobody knew existed.

e) why would the Warp start sapping their strength? It's not sentient. The Warp is Chaos, Chaos is the Warp. You don't have one without the other, and Chaos is just spiritual and emotional energy.

In the end, I agree that the Truth would hurt the Gods, but in no way like what you claim.

EDIT: (yes, humanity was bleeding to death long before the Great Crusade. That's why 3/4 of the Gods were born like 38 thousand years before M41.)

No one knows exactly what the Eldar Gods are. It is commonly accepted by fans that Gork and Mork are indeed "Chaos Gods." The "original form" thing you are talking about is entirely made up by you. The suffering experienced by humanity during Old Night was scattered and weak. The suffering, the ambition, the terror, and the complexity of the Great Crusade are on a much higher level because the Great Crusade unifies the efforts of billions. You might think of it as something like an anti-astronomican.

Elector wrote:

Tadashi wrote:*sighs* so this is why they were called Iterators, they had to repeat the message over and over again. Look, the Warp is fed by emotions, but that doesn't mean it doesn't get affected by belief. Unless, you're telling me the old Eldar Gods and Gork and Mork were felt into existence as opposed to coming into existence by the belief of the Eldar and the Orks? The Warp is a psychic realm - emotions and belief alike shape it. The former will continue to sustain them, but the lack of the latter will reduce 'daemons' and 'gods' alike to paper tigers. Especially if the entire species is composed of psykers - the Emperor was planning to accelerate Human evolution after the Imperial Webway was completed after all.

Stop sighing, it doesn't have the same effect in type, and it just comes across as condescending. Okay:

a) that iterator point isn't connected to your argument, they were just spreading the Imperial truth, and have nothing to do with what you're saying here.

b) I'm not saying the Eldar gods (or Gork/Mork) were 'felt' into existence (primarily because I don't know enough about the Eldar's gods to say if they were even just myths or not, and Gork/Mork don't have much fluff tied to them beyond be kunning/brutal). However, it has been repeatedly stated that the Gods of Chaos came into power/sentience/being because (and only because) of intense emotion reaching into the Warp. Barely anybody were even aware of their existence before the Horus Heresy (it's not like the Eldar believed in Slaanesh before he was born and ripped them a new one). They gained in power as the galaxy grew and prospered.

c) I dunno about your sources (is there any fluff to support this?), but according to the CSM codex, it is explicitly stated (on page 8, I might add) that they only grow in power from the actions/thoughts of mortals. essentially if they behave in a way that feeds the god. Belief has no connection to it. It might weaken the gods if the Imperial Truth turned the humans into a more Vulcan outlook (with much more suppressed emotions), but not believing in them isn't the key. The Warp is dreams, nightmares, hopes and emotion. Belief isn't a part of it.

d) You act like they aren't technically gods in this setting. They are. For all intents and purposes, they are gods, and their servants, made from Warpstuff and a fragment of the god's power, they are called daemons. Changing that title doesn't change this. And not believing in them didn't stop them from starting the Horus Heresy, wrecking the Eldar, and totally messing up Mankind with legions of daemons nobody knew existed.

e) why would the Warp start sapping their strength? It's not sentient. The Warp is Chaos, Chaos is the Warp. You don't have one without the other, and Chaos is just spiritual and emotional energy.

In the end, I agree that the Truth would hurt the Gods, but in no way like what you claim.

I've already said that the Warp and Chaos are not completely one and the same, otherwise everything in the Warp would be Chaos Power, including the Eldar and Ork Gods who came into existence because the Eldar and the Orks believed in their existence, and even the Emperor, as He is an existence born by fusing countless souls of shamans into a single being that allowed itself to be born into a mortal form. The Warp is affected by belief, but instead of creating a 'god', people's belief in the Imperial Truth would cause the Warp to sap the strength and influence of the Chaos Powers.

Quite simply, the Ruinous Powers do not exist because real space beings "believe" in them.

Also, you might want to define (hopefully with a source) what the Imperial Truth is.

Okay, seriously, where did you read that the Warp is affected by belief.

Because every OTHER piece of fluff indicates it's affected by emotions.

Also, nobody knows if the Eldar gods were actual entities or just myths, but your argument that the Warp and Chaos are one the same supports the argument that all entities in the Warp are beings of Chaos in some respect.

(also the Emperor shaman-thing? They were thousands of psykers who would die and enter the Warp temporarily, absorb psychic energy, and reincarnate, until their souls started to be consumed by the Powers instead of being born anew, so they had a suicide-pact and reborn at the same time as one immortal. They weren't Warp entities.)