What I notice from a lot of people is that they think all the Imperial Guard does is send 1000000 men and tanks out into the open and hope that they take a tiny stretch of land back and if they find out about Chaos, then they are executed(even if they only fight a traitor milita unit)
and people think that this applies to every single regiment in every single battle, completely ignoring the existence of the Tanith First and Only, Elysian Drop troops, Catachans etc
Essentially, they're also a Special Forces IG is not fluffy at all and anything not WW1 esque is not fluffy either
Also they tend to think that IG has no training and are just regular human beings given a lasgun and shipped off(off which also completely false as they receive 4 months of training which is the equivalent of the USMC's basic)
Manchu wrote:Ehhh ... IG aren't all that great either ...
Of course they are. The Imperial Guard spends most of it's time fighting other human forces (secessionist, renegade forces and so on) and after that Orks. Lots of Orks.
Edit: Only small pockets will end up fighting Tau or Tyranids. Very few will ever see the Eldar or a Necron. Not many will even come up against a few Traitor Astartes, let alone large numbers of them.
Romer wrote:... throwing men away needlessly wouldn't be sensisble and just doesn't make sense from a human perspective.
Tell it to the French General Staff in 1916.
WW1 tactics was a byproduct of firepower radically increasing compared to maneuverability. Tactics hadn't yet caught up and those with new ideas often weren't given sufficient chance (that Canadian bloke springs to mind).
The Imperium should have no such problem. The Guard has tanks, transports, drop ships, air support, artillery and infantry of all varieties, It has the tools to do more than just drown the enemies guns in blood.
Yeah well in fluff it's regular dudes fighting horrible atrocities. War is hell and I think that showing them dying so easily contributes to showing how badass the astartes are. Not only that as I said before they're regular men, yes with some training, but as you said only 4 months of training. That's really not that much even by todays standards
The problem is that the IG, much like everything else in 40k, are written to be many different contradictory things at the same time. They are both cannon fodder and the elite. Depends on who's writing them and what world they are from. Sometimes they are the cream of their worlds military forces, the top 10% of the PDF and lavishly equipped with armor and tanks and arcane weaponry, other times they are raised from anyone who can be drafted and given lasguns and run in front of tanks to clear minefields, other times they have been raised from birth in military cultures with the full knowledge that their lives will end in the service of the Imperial Guard (Cadia, Krieg, etc) and as such are very well trained and dedicated.
In general however, the IG are the best of mankinds forces, better trained, equipped and led than the larger PDF's of each world, and brought in when others can't do the job. This often isn't portrayed correctly, most of the time, the IG *ARE* the Marines/Cavalry/etc, coming in to save the day as the PDF is overwhlemed. Most of the time what really should be PDF are labelled as Guard by most authors.
Like anything else in 40k however, their nature depends on who the author is. Hence why Space Marines can be just big heavy infantry or they can be almost literal gods of war.
Manchu wrote:
Romer wrote:... throwing men away needlessly wouldn't be sensisble and just doesn't make sense from a human perspective.
Tell it to the French General Staff in 1916.
One will notice this traumatized them greatly and forced changes in staff and tactics due to running out of men and revolt amongst the ranks, and hurt so bad on a cultural level it paralyzed them in the next war.
Brother Thomas wrote:Yeah well in fluff it's regular dudes fighting horrible atrocities.
Only in the fluff people bother writing about. 99.9% of the Guard's battles are against rebel human worlds, independent worlds, relatively weak xenos (like Tau or space Skaven), traitor guard, and Orks, where achieving a positive kill/death ratio is perfectly plausible.
Brother Thomas wrote:Yeah well in fluff it's regular dudes fighting horrible atrocities. War is hell and I think that showing them dying so easily contributes to showing how badass the astartes are. Not only that as I said before they're regular men, yes with some training, but as you said only 4 months of training. That's really not that much even by todays standards
Isn't the USMC's basic training(not including the technical training part) 3-4 months?
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Manchu wrote:Ehhh ... IG aren't all that great either ...
Maybe a single Guardsmen with 4 months of training compared to the 10,000 year old CSM in terminator armor
Brother Thomas wrote:Yeah well in fluff it's regular dudes fighting horrible atrocities. War is hell and I think that showing them dying so easily contributes to showing how badass the astartes are. Not only that as I said before they're regular men, yes with some training, but as you said only 4 months of training. That's really not that much even by todays standards
Isn't the USMC's basic training(not including the technical training part) 3-4 months?
Basic is 13 weeks IIRC, so yeah, IG could probably be considered on par with most western militaries.
And with guns that hold the power of 19 Megathules, aka 19MJ, which is 737,562 ft-lb over 135 shots, 5.5k ft-lb per shot, which is half as powerful as a 50 cal but twice as powerful as a M14 round and three times as powerful as a AK round.
Wonder how much energy a lascannon and autocannons pump out per shot. I'd laugh if the ft-lb were high in the AC than LC.
Brother Thomas wrote:Yeah well in fluff it's regular dudes fighting horrible atrocities. War is hell and I think that showing them dying so easily contributes to showing how badass the astartes are. Not only that as I said before they're regular men, yes with some training, but as you said only 4 months of training. That's really not that much even by todays standards
Isn't the USMC's basic training(not including the technical training part) 3-4 months?
Basic is 13 weeks IIRC, so yeah, IG could probably be considered on par with most western militaries.
Basic doesn't train you how to fight very well though, my impression is that it is more about just getting you to react to orders in a uniform manner and that kind of stuff, not actual rifle skills etc. My mate was in 3RAR, (Australian Army) and he had about two years of actual training after basic which was about three months. After they'd taught him how to shave and polish his boots and make his bed the army way, then they get into the shooting and stuff. So he did months of seperate courses in urban and jungle warfare, rifle shooting and all the other stuff. If you just did basic as in IG about all you could do would be to clean your gun and fold your bed nicely!
At least, that's my impression, I'm sure the actual soldiers here know better though!
Journeys through the warp are not always a manner of a few weeks or a couple of months. They can last for months on end, even years, and if the regiments & units aboard are trained routinely then they will be in peak physical condition, well trained in the use of their equipment, tactics & skills they will need on the battlefield by the time they're sent in to fight. Upon the colossal transport ships they have the space & resources to adjust & tailor training to what can be expected from the warzone they will be entering thus giving them specialised training (see the Eisenhorn novel Xenos as an example).
On top of that there is the time where the forces gather & are marshaled before travelling to the warzone where the troops will not be sitting idle. Constant training keeps the troops occupied, keeps them well-versed in what they need to know & do on the field and exhausts them so they can't make as much trouble if they were sat idle.
Even if the journey is short & the time prior to departure minimal, the Guard regiments will still turn up well-trained & ready with what they need to know. The IG isn't into 'human rights' & the idea of being a soldier as a job with daily hours just doesn't sit comfortably. Aboard a transport in space time is almost irrelevant as there is no sun to regulate whether it is day or night. Thus the Guard units under training will no doubt be kept at the training with minimal breaks between - they won't get much sleep when they're being bombarded by artillery so why not get them used to it beforehand?
Dan Abnetts Armour of Contempt shows the diversity of Guard units, The Ghosts are off doing recon and other light infantry shenanigans. Meanwhile on the otherside of the continent Guardsmen are being thrown against fortifications to the point they could crawl over the bodies and over the fortifications in one go.
Yeah, About the whole "Executing them for forbidden knowledge" is only by a few radical inquisitors. Most use the Inquisitions power to scare them into silence.
If there was direct contact then they are probably toast, or they get permanantly attached to the Inquisition. Partly for the experienced soldiers they would be, and partly to keep an eye on them.
Indirect contact will normally not result in anything done to them unless there are obvious effects.
Grey Templar wrote:It depends on the level of exposure.
Yeah, I mean for something like the first armageddon war, so few would have avoided temptation that it is better just to kill or sterilize them all and be done with it. I mean a daemon primarch leading a massive invasion, most people are gonna die.
Brother Thomas wrote:Yeah well in fluff it's regular dudes fighting horrible atrocities. War is hell and I think that showing them dying so easily contributes to showing how badass the astartes are. Not only that as I said before they're regular men, yes with some training, but as you said only 4 months of training. That's really not that much even by todays standards
Isn't the USMC's basic training(not including the technical training part) 3-4 months?
Basic is 13 weeks IIRC, so yeah, IG could probably be considered on par with most western militaries.
Basic doesn't train you how to fight very well though, my impression is that it is more about just getting you to react to orders in a uniform manner and that kind of stuff, not actual rifle skills etc. My mate was in 3RAR, (Australian Army) and he had about two years of actual training after basic which was about three months. After they'd taught him how to shave and polish his boots and make his bed the army way, then they get into the shooting and stuff. So he did months of seperate courses in urban and jungle warfare, rifle shooting and all the other stuff. If you just did basic as in IG about all you could do would be to clean your gun and fold your bed nicely!
At least, that's my impression, I'm sure the actual soldiers here know better though!
Yeah, but you don't just join the army and go straight to ranger schol right? That's what I mean't, I wasn't trying to say you can't learn a lot in a short space of time, especially if you're a motivated learner, I just meant, you won't do a whole lot of combat training in basic. Again, not a soldier, its just what I've read and heard.
There is no known comparator for what a "thule" is or how it compares to the "joule". We don't know how powerful the lasgun is compared to a contemporary weapon (except in comparison to the Autogun which was noted once as being equivalent to the 5.56/5.45mm assault rifle and given the same strength (and AP*).
*I'm not talking about the necromunda version, which has its own issues - but the 3rd ed guard codex version (when the rules of necro and 40k took off at right angles to each other).
The execution for seeing chaos from what I have seen and read normally only applys when they encounter real deamons. Not just traitors or heretics. Look at the end of the first war of Armageddon. Every none marine was killed and all of the marines were suppose to be mind wiped. Not that the Space wolves listened.
White Ninja wrote:The execution for seeing chaos from what I have seen and read normally only applys when they encounter real deamons. Not just traitors or heretics. Look at the end of the first war of Armageddon. Every none marine was killed and all of the marines were suppose to be mind wiped. Not that the Space wolves listened.
Magtherion_Soulsaver wrote:Something tells me it takes longer to train Elysians and Death Korp....
Well FFGs Only War beta states that Death Korps are raised from birth to fight(and IIRC Dead Men Walking reinforces this), and Elysians must serve 4 years in local PDF before they are even considered for Imperial Guard Service (I believe one of the IA books reinforce this).
It is a very common misconception that ALL guardsmen only receive 4 months training or training en route to the battle zone..
This would only apply in the case of emergency responses to large threats where large number of conscript unites are called up to be sent to a nearby world in crisis.
Standard guard unites that are raised as part of a an annual teth would be trained to a level set by the ruling planetary governor (who would likely demand a fairly good level because if the teth is considered substandard he/she could be removed or executed!)
Magtherion_Soulsaver wrote:Something tells me it takes longer to train Elysians and Death Korp....
Well FFGs Only War beta states that Death Korps are raised from birth to fight(and IIRC Dead Men Walking reinforces this), and Elysians must serve 4 years in local PDF before they are even considered for Imperial Guard Service (I believe one of the IA books reinforce this).
Correct, I was being somewhat cynical. =) Also if memory serves me Storm Troopers take a while as well
It applies to most Guard regiments that are raised on standard Tithes.
They spend a few months on their planet getting outfitted and basic training.
Then they get loaded onto ships and sent to a central dispersal area or sent to a warzone.
In the weeks they spend on the ships they undergo additional training and drills. Ships are equipped with simulation areas. They can practice all sorts of scenerios.
Magtherion_Soulsaver wrote:Something tells me it takes longer to train Elysians and Death Korp....
Well FFGs Only War beta states that Death Korps are raised from birth to fight(and IIRC Dead Men Walking reinforces this), and Elysians must serve 4 years in local PDF before they are even considered for Imperial Guard Service (I believe one of the IA books reinforce this).
Correct, I was being somewhat cynical. =) Also if memory serves me Storm Troopers take a while as well
Well storm troopers are raised from a relatively young age to be the troops they are. And again I think ffg states that for training for a non Schola Storm trooper its two years of training.
Grey Templar wrote:It depends on the level of exposure.
Yeah, I mean for something like the first armageddon war, so few would have avoided temptation that it is better just to kill or sterilize them all and be done with it. I mean a daemon primarch leading a massive invasion, most people are gonna die.
Grey Templar wrote:It depends on the level of exposure.
Yeah, I mean for something like the first armageddon war, so few would have avoided temptation that it is better just to kill or sterilize them all and be done with it. I mean a daemon primarch leading a massive invasion, most people are gonna die.
The Siege of Vraks would disagree with you.
There was a daemon primarch and over a dozen greater daemons at Vraks?
Bobthehero wrote:Even better An'ggrath was there, and the story mentions Kriegsmen falling back to let the 100+ Grey Knights and the Inquisitor Lord fight it.
Must've been a bunch of other demons, I know the original Deacon who turned traitor was granted Daemonhood by Nurgle.
Neither of those are really as threatening as a daemon primarch. Sanguinius was able to slay one of Khorne's more powerful bloodthirsters, and was likely inferior in raw strength to Angron before he became a daemon prince. Even then Angron had an entourage of a dozen bloodthirsters. Also, Angron faced over a hundred terminators directly and only like 10 survived the encounter.
Edit: Also against Angron it was probably was best to air on the side of caution, the last time he was free from the warp he ran around for 200 years killing people and causing rebellions.
Brother Thomas wrote:Yeah well in fluff it's regular dudes fighting horrible atrocities. War is hell and I think that showing them dying so easily contributes to showing how badass the astartes are. Not only that as I said before they're regular men, yes with some training, but as you said only 4 months of training. That's really not that much even by todays standards
Isn't the USMC's basic training(not including the technical training part) 3-4 months?
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Manchu wrote:Ehhh ... IG aren't all that great either ...
Maybe a single Guardsmen with 4 months of training compared to the 10,000 year old CSM in terminator armor
Boot camp is 3 months. School of infantry is 3 and a half months. Not to include all the schools I've been to which have been about 3 more months
Vaktathi wrote:In general however, the IG are the best of mankinds forces, better trained, equipped and led than the larger PDF's of each world, and brought in when others can't do the job.
I don't think it's possible to make such broad sweeping statements though. Even here on earth we have everything from fresh-meat part-time militias, to the SAS or Navy SEALs. On a broader scale like the galaxy spanning IG, it's even harder to make generalisations. I imagine there are just as many 'elite' PDF's as there are IG regiments, and just as many crap PDF's as there are cannon-fodder IG regiments.
One has to consider that fact that, while it is not cost-effective to transport billions of men for months or years at a time just to throw their lives away, the life of a Guardsman is one of the cheapest and most easily replenished assets in the Imperium. In many cases, levying billions of humans off a Hive World is just a way of maintaining the population, keeping the demand for resources down. Even within the IG, elite regiments like the Catachans or Elysians are extremely limited. If option 1 costs 1,000 Elysians, and option 2 costs 10,000 'regular' guardsmen, it's still more cost effective to go with the 'regular' guardsmen.
razor5647 wrote:It is a very common misconception that ALL guardsmen only receive 4 months training or training en route to the battle zone..
This would only apply in the case of emergency responses to large threats where large number of conscript unites are called up to be sent to a nearby world in crisis.
Standard guard unites that are raised as part of a an annual teth would be trained to a level set by the ruling planetary governor (who would likely demand a fairly good level because if the teth is considered substandard he/she could be removed or executed!)
I mentioned the four month thing up an almost absolute base minimum the Guardsman would receive.
Kaldor wrote:
Even within the IG, elite regiments like the Catachans or Elysians are extremely limited. If option 1 costs 1,000 Elysians, and option 2 costs 10,000 'regular' guardsmen, it's still more cost effective to go with the 'regular' guardsmen.
I'd argue which you pick depends on the overall situation after you've made the choice. If it's vital to retain airborne troopers for a later phase of operations than yes. But if those 10 000 guardsman are needed to hold the line in the face of the inevitable enemy counter attack, you throw them the Elysians.
But then I'd also argue the Guard probably doesn't have any trouble finding itself some elite troopers considering it's in a constant state of war. Nothing produces high quality soldiers like a couple of campaigns against renegades or Orks. Your unit size may talk significant casualties, but you'll be as good as just about any one. Except probably Storm Troopers.
Bobthehero wrote:That depends, Krieg, for example, produce 100x more troops than an equivalent world and it is that their training is far more brutal than the norm.
Yes, but then again its a major exception. They don't reproduce in the normal way so they have a massive birth rate, even for the Imperium.
Then they are raised from birth to fight in the Death Korps, their planet is a radioactive wasteland, and their final drill is a live combat between their new recruits with the survivors being in the new Regiment.
The Korps are BAMFs, and just to proove how much of BAMFs they are they have Commissars. But their job is to make sure the Korpsmen don't kill themselves too fast, not to enforce discipline.
Grey Templar wrote:It depends on the level of exposure.
Yeah, I mean for something like the first armageddon war, so few would have avoided temptation that it is better just to kill or sterilize them all and be done with it. I mean a daemon primarch leading a massive invasion, most people are gonna die.
The Siege of Vraks would disagree with you.
Of all the regiments within the Imperial Guard the men of Krieg are probably the most heavily indoctrinated.
They seem to have no desires besides paying for the sins of their forefathers and no life outside constant warfare.
To leave them alive after a daemonic invasion is much safer than to do the same for most other, probably less dependable regiments.
Vaktathi wrote:In general however, the IG are the best of mankinds forces, better trained, equipped and led than the larger PDF's of each world, and brought in when others can't do the job.
I don't think it's possible to make such broad sweeping statements though. Even here on earth we have everything from fresh-meat part-time militias, to the SAS or Navy SEALs. On a broader scale like the galaxy spanning IG, it's even harder to make generalisations. I imagine there are just as many 'elite' PDF's as there are IG regiments, and just as many crap PDF's as there are cannon-fodder IG regiments.
That's why I said "In general" as the caveat there. Yes it's a broad statement that there will of course be numerous exceptions to, but *generally* the IG will be better trained, equipped and experienced than their PDF counterparts.
The "extermination" debate kinda assumes that the Imperium - IG aside - would have a coherent policy on this in the first place.
Arguably, from all I've ever read about the IoM, this is very unlikely.
I am sure there IS a transcript or imperial record that states all Guardsman need to be executed after meeting even a single daemon. There's also likely hundreds of other scriptures and guidances and holy text that all recommend or prescribe different things. And then it's up to who is in charge and pulling the strings. A strong IG command with good ties to the Adeptus Terra and favours owed by a nearby Astartes Chapter? Or a non-name regiment drafted without support by a well-connected and holier-than-though Inquisitor? Miles of differences.
If anything, the IoM is the prime example of arbitrary and whimsical bureaucracy, even if it leads to absurd atrocities.
Thus: Is it conceivable that the IoM may on occassion execute entire armies because some obscure piece of parchment says they should? Sure.
Could the IoM apply this "execution-policy" in a uniform and coherent way across its entire sphere of influence even if it tried: Hell no.
Is the difference between which IG-regiments get executed and which get not executed logical or coherent: Unlikely, if it's the IoM I keep reading about.
In short, IoM being what it is, I am pretty sure that sometimes IG (or even Astartes) get whiped out for some reason of this sort and sometimes not. It might occasionally even hit "trusted" IG-forces like Krieg while shady ones go unpunished and promptly become Traitor Guard. Hell, it might even hit the same regiment or force which gets to stay alive in conflict A but receives the thumbs down a decade later.
Trying to find a rational and universally enforced basis for "who get's executed or not" kinda misses the point of how the IoM tends to work even before one starts to consider the myriad variations that fall under the label of "IG".
I do not believe there is a thing such as "fluff misconceptions". Let's keep in mind that, effectively, as per the very writers developing the material y'all invoking in debates like these, 40k does not actually have a canon. What some think are "misconceptions" are actually just different perceptions formed from reading material that is plain and simply different from what they themselves have read. By now, there must be dozens, if not a hundred writers and game designers all having worked on rulebooks, codices, novels and roleplaying games - and they all had their very own ideas, which they were free to introduce to the franchise with little along the lines of consistency or conformity.
tl;dr: for the majority of material published by this franchise, "book A" was never meant to be compatible with "book B" - yet someone whose perception of the setting was formed by book A is no more "right" or "wrong" than someone whose conception was formed from reading book B.
With that out of the way, I will also say that the setting would seem to allow a great many number of different types of Imperial Guard regiments to exist alongside even if you restrict your perception of the 'verse to a single source. Take the "Codex: Imperial Guard", for example, and look how the ill-equipped Valhallan Ice Warriors come across compared to airborne units of Elysian Drop Troops, or how the highly disciplined mechanized regiments of Cadia appear next to the horse-mounted barbarians from the Attilan Rough Riders.
A number of posters have pointed it out already - the Imperial Guard is quite simply so large and diverse that a uniform judgment is hard to pass. You will have borderline-marysue elite troops next to inexperienced conscript farmhands barely knowing how to hold their lasgun, just like you can find augmented hi-tech troops next to men-at-arms clad in medieval chainmail, so their players can pick the one they feel most attracted to. It's part of what makes the IG so cool. If you're going by the studio material, the one and only thing they all have in common is a few weeks minimum of basic training and a lasgun. And even of the latter there are different models. The rest ... well, it all depends on where the regiment was raised!
Romer wrote:But then I'd also argue the Guard probably doesn't have any trouble finding itself some elite troopers considering it's in a constant state of war. Nothing produces high quality soldiers like a couple of campaigns against renegades or Orks. Your unit size may talk significant casualties, but you'll be as good as just about any one. Except probably Storm Troopers.
Well, yes and no. I'm sure they'd be experienced and elite by IG standards, but by a galactic standard that still makes them pathetic meat-sacks. Just slightly less pathetic than their compatriots.
KingDeath wrote:Of all the regiments within the Imperial Guard the men of Krieg are probably the most heavily indoctrinated.
They seem to have no desires besides paying for the sins of their forefathers and no life outside constant warfare.
To leave them alive after a daemonic invasion is much safer than to do the same for most other, probably less dependable regiments.
Well, I certainly wouldn't say that. If a Daemon whispered in their ear and said they can have untold power with which to vanquish their enemies, and so better 'erase the sins' of their forefathers, and all they have to do in return is offer a little prayer every now and then? I can't be bothered typing out a convincing scenario right now, but suffice to say that if the troopers of the Deathkorp have any kind of desire (kill their enemies, die a "glorious" death, take a certain enemy position, whatever) then Khorne basically has a direct line to them. And if even only one in five million listens to him, it's too many.
Vaktathi wrote:*generally* the IG will be better trained, equipped and experienced than their PDF counterparts.
I don't think it would be though. I'd reckon most PDF troopers have better training and equipment. If I were a planetary lord, I'd be making damn sure I kept the best gear for own guards. Give the Imperium their standard pattern lasguns and flak armour, but up the production value a bit when producing equipment for the PDF. Also, many IG regiments have only minimal training where-as PDF troopers might have 20 years or more of training under their belts.
And of course, there's always the flipside of elite IG regiments and PDF regiments consisting of barbarians with pointy sticks.
I don't think it's possible to create a scale of efficiency and say that the PDF are generally on the lower end, while the IG are generally higher. I think there'd be an even spread.
I don't think it would be though. I'd reckon most PDF troopers have better training and equipment. If I were a planetary lord, I'd be making damn sure I kept the best gear for own guards. Give the Imperium their standard pattern lasguns and flak armour, but up the production value a bit when producing equipment for the PDF.
This is why the Administratum and Munitorum inspect the tithe, and why the Inquisition watches over planetary Lords to ensure they do right by the Imperium.
Also, quite often, the tithe may be equipped by the Munitorum rather than the planet they originate from as otherwise they may not have the appropriate industrial base, many worlds have neither the technology or the sheer capacity to properly equip a guard regiment to they supply additional troops or more food or whatever than they would have otherwise.
Also, many IG regiments have only minimal training where-as PDF troopers might have 20 years or more of training under their belts.
If they are being taken from a planet with minimal training, it likely means the PDF has already been drained of its experienced troops for draft, at least, that's how it *should* work, unless the Lord has enough clout within other organizations to cover for himself.
I don't think it's possible to create a scale of efficiency and say that the PDF are generally on the lower end, while the IG are generally higher. I think there'd be an even spread.
Again, the tithes are inspected, and if a planetary Lord is holding back, his title and life are forfeit.
I don't think it would be though. I'd reckon most PDF troopers have better training and equipment. If I were a planetary lord, I'd be making damn sure I kept the best gear for own guards. Give the Imperium their standard pattern lasguns and flak armour, but up the production value a bit when producing equipment for the PDF.
This is why the Administratum and Munitorum inspect the tithe, and why the Inquisition watches over planetary Lords to ensure they do right by the Imperium.
Also, quite often, the tithe may be equipped by the Munitorum rather than the planet they originate from as otherwise they may not have the appropriate industrial base, many worlds have neither the technology or the sheer capacity to properly equip a guard regiment to they supply additional troops or more food or whatever than they would have otherwise.
Also, many IG regiments have only minimal training where-as PDF troopers might have 20 years or more of training under their belts.
If they are being taken from a planet with minimal training, it likely means the PDF has already been drained of its experienced troops for draft, at least, that's how it *should* work, unless the Lord has enough clout within other organizations to cover for himself.
I don't think it's possible to create a scale of efficiency and say that the PDF are generally on the lower end, while the IG are generally higher. I think there'd be an even spread.
Again, the tithes are inspected, and if a planetary Lord is holding back, his title and life are forfeit.
Well many world in the Cullexis sector have corruption issues, just remember that the Lord General is the wealthiest man on probably 90% of planets, he can afford to have some munitorum officials on the payroll, and all the fluff I have read on Inquisition is they only interfere after a munitorum investigation or if secession is going to occur. (I have read for Inquisitor fluff: FFG books, Eisenhorn, Ravenor, Ciaphas Cain, Ultramarines)
Romer wrote:But then I'd also argue the Guard probably doesn't have any trouble finding itself some elite troopers considering it's in a constant state of war. Nothing produces high quality soldiers like a couple of campaigns against renegades or Orks. Your unit size may talk significant casualties, but you'll be as good as just about any one. Except probably Storm Troopers.
Well, yes and no. I'm sure they'd be experienced and elite by IG standards, but by a galactic standard that still makes them pathetic meat-sacks. Just slightly less pathetic than their compatriots.
Not at all. Since as stated the vast majority of their opponents will also be "pathetic meat-sacks". The rest will predominantly be Orks where the Guardsman have other advantages. And really, it's only the Chaos Marines which aren't numerous enough and the Necrons that truly out class Imperial Guardsman. Eldar do to, but in a way that's easier to handle.
Besides, if the Guard was that pathetic, all the Imperiums enemies must be equally as pathetic, since it is the guard and not the space marines that hold the Imperium together.
Romer wrote:Besides, if the Guard was that pathetic, all the Imperiums enemies must be equally as pathetic, since it is the guard and not the space marines that hold the Imperium together.
And hence the underlying theme of the IG simply clogging the enemy warmachine with bodies.
Vaktathi wrote:tithes are inspected, and if a planetary Lord is holding back, his title and life are forfeit.
Granted, but I've never heard of tithes requiring the best of the best. Only X amount of Y. If the planet is providing X amount of Y, but ALSO producing Z amount of (Y+1) for it's own use, I can't see how they'd get in trouble.
nomotog wrote:IG are bottom of the totem pole no matter how much you play up their training.
Which is why they will always be infinitely more interesting than any other army. Well to me & like-minded people. Screw the 'elite' and the 'best', I'm with the underdogs here.
nomotog wrote:IG are bottom of the totem pole no matter how much you play up their training.
Which is why they will always be infinitely more interesting than any other army. Well to me & like-minded people. Screw the 'elite' and the 'best', I'm with the underdogs here.
Exactly! The biggest misconception about IG is that they should be more elite, but they are so much more compelling as the underdogs.
Kaldor wrote:Granted, but I've never heard of tithes requiring the best of the best. Only X amount of Y. If the planet is providing X amount of Y, but ALSO producing Z amount of (Y+1) for it's own use, I can't see how they'd get in trouble.
Well, if we're going by what GW has printed, then according to page 8 of the 5E Codex "should a tithe be of an unacceptable quality, the Imperial Governor's life is forfeit" and that "for this reason, those soldiers selected for the Imperial Guard tend to be drawn from the elite of a planet's troops".
In a way, it's also a matter of common sense. If a planet is holding out on the Munitorum, suspicions of secession would arise. It's not exactly the same as not paying the tithe at all, but questions would arise as to why exactly this governor obviously deems his own world more important than the Imperium - and with it, Mankind as a whole. Even more sceptical individuals might construe that such a case would merely hint at deliberate treason even worse than an overdue tribute would. A planet not paying its tithe at all might just not be able to do so, but one that is purposely holding back the superior troops might try to deceive the Emperor by trying not to draw any attention whilst bolstering its own forces and preparing to secede.
Also,
"To this end, each populated planet shall raise and maintain forces for its defence, and from its ranks shall it provide the best of its troops for recruitment into the largest of the Imperium's armies - the Imperial Guard. [...] If his armies shall be found lacking or wanting in any regard, he shall no longer be fit for Lordship and shall face such censures or punishments as judged appropriate by the High Lords of Terra or their duly appointed agents." -- Introit to the Codex Exercitus, incorporating the Amalathian Oath, 5E-C:IG p5
nomotog wrote:Exactly! The biggest misconception about IG is that they should be more elite, but they are so much more compelling as the underdogs.
They could have years of training on some worlds. Read the 6th edition fluff. Worlds are extremely different from one another. The only similarities and requirements for them are that they send taxes and forces to the rest of the Imperium, as well as follow it's general instructions.
Inquisitor Ehrenstein wrote:They could have years of training on some worlds.
To be fair, "training" =/= "Imperial Guard training". On Cadia the level is probably somewhat equal, as I remember the 3E Codex implying it. On the other hand, the government of Necromunda simply rounds up a bunch of gangers from the streets and pushes them into the troopship. So, yeah, it depends on the world.
I recall a number of novels having picked up on this depiction as well, from the PDF/IG interaction in James Swallow's "Faith & Fire" to the Navy press gangs "abducting" random citizens for immediate deployment in Andy Chambers' "Ancient History".
Mind you, personally I'm going by GW sources when I'm talking of fluff, so my perception may not match that of people who prefer other sources. On the other hand, the Guard's diversity makes almost anything feasible, somewhere. I've seen a few examples I'm just not gonna buy into.
White Ninja wrote:The execution for seeing chaos from what I have seen and read normally only applys when they encounter real deamons. Not just traitors or heretics. Look at the end of the first war of Armageddon. Every none marine was killed and all of the marines were suppose to be mind wiped. Not that the Space wolves listened.
In Dan Abnetts Gaunts Ghosts series, most specially The Armour of Contempt, Dalin Criid encounters a bloodthirster. Not only him but several other companies of gaurdsmen. The IG took Gereon and as far as i now none were killed for seeing daemons and most got shipped out to Jago. Gaunt and his stealth team that went to Gereon previously also encountered daemons but the Inquisition killed none of them for seeing this.
nomotog wrote:IG are bottom of the totem pole no matter how much you play up their training.
Not that being the bottom is a bad thing...
Automatically Appended Next Post:
nomotog wrote:
Sparks_Havelock wrote:
nomotog wrote:IG are bottom of the totem pole no matter how much you play up their training.
Which is why they will always be infinitely more interesting than any other army. Well to me & like-minded people. Screw the 'elite' and the 'best', I'm with the underdogs here.
Exactly! The biggest misconception about IG is that they should be more elite, but they are so much more compelling as the underdogs.
Then I guess the catachans and tanith are uninteresting...
The catachan book was a lot more enjoyable then the space wolves omnibus though
White Ninja wrote:The execution for seeing chaos from what I have seen and read normally only applys when they encounter real deamons. Not just traitors or heretics. Look at the end of the first war of Armageddon. Every none marine was killed and all of the marines were suppose to be mind wiped. Not that the Space wolves listened.
In Dan Abnetts Gaunts Ghosts series, most specially The Armour of Contempt, Dalin Criid encounters a bloodthirster. Not only him but several other companies of gaurdsmen. The IG took Gereon and as far as i now none were killed for seeing daemons and most got shipped out to Jago. Gaunt and his stealth team that went to Gereon previously also encountered daemons but the Inquisition killed none of them for seeing this.
Yes. But there is again the misconception that the Imperium would be in any way coherent or logical in their application of rules and guidelines. One unit of Guardsman might go to the gallows for a run in with Heretics because the local Inquisitor big-shot says they should. Another unit might walk into the Eye of Terror and back again and noone bothers.
It is entirely conceivable that a different unit that had gone through the same encounters as Gaunts Ghosts did would have been executed. And, frankly, it has nothing to do with the training or quality of the Guardsman involved. It's just another example of the arbitrary and fickle highhandedness with which the IoM goes about muddling along in its war against Chaos.
nomotog wrote:IG are bottom of the totem pole no matter how much you play up their training.
Which is why they will always be infinitely more interesting than any other army. Well to me & like-minded people. Screw the 'elite' and the 'best', I'm with the underdogs here.
Exactly! The biggest misconception about IG is that they should be more elite, but they are so much more compelling as the underdogs.
Then I guess the catachans and tanith are uninteresting...
To some people, yes. They've always bored me, I must say. For me, the interesting Guard regiments aren't the super trained elite forces, they're the ones made of regular guys with basic military training. Much more human, much more poignant and dramatic. A testiment to the human spirit as they hold the line against the monstrous hordes of the galaxy, or a tragedy as they are overwhelmed by a far superior foe.
I'm sure a lot of folks prefer the all Delta force armies, highly trained military spec ops stuff. The great thing is, the regiments are so diverse that there's room for both of them in the army. I would say that the lesser trained regiments are by far the majority, but that's just my take on it.
PresidentOfAsia wrote:Then I guess the catachans and tanith are uninteresting...
The catachan book was a lot more enjoyable then the space wolves omnibus though
It's not so much that as compared to the Space Marines, Grey Knights, Eldar etc etc every other race is individually more powerful than the individual Guardsman no matter how 'elite' that Guardsman is compared to his peers. That is why the Guard are more interesting, because they have the full range of human emotions that the other races lack (in general, ignoring elements like Krieg), they're equipped with the weaker weapons in the universe (although the lasgun is still damned powerful by human standards) and they often have to face off against forces which are among their worst nightmares.
nomotog wrote:Exactly! The biggest misconception about IG is that they should be more elite, but they are so much more compelling as the underdogs.
Of course they're the underdogs. But that doesn't make them incompetent useless soldiers where the default strategy is simply to zerg at the enemy to drown him in numbers.
I'm not trying to argue that against the biggest threats in the galaxy that the Imperial Guard stand as equals. But they stand against them as competent soldiers. Most guard units win because of tactics, strategy and the spirit to get the job done no matter the cost. Not because their commanders march them at the enemy until they run out of bullets.
If the guard wasn't achieving positive K ratios in victories over renegade/other humans, Orks, Tau and Tryanids, they wouldn't be winning many wars.
Romer wrote:But that doesn't make them incompetent useless soldiers where the default strategy is simply to zerg at the enemy to drown him in numbers.
You haven't heard much of Chenkov, did you?
And this has little to do with "incompetent". It's called "grimdark". Human lives are the one resource the Imperium has enough of, which is why unlike in (most) contemporary military forces, a random conscript's equipment is indeed more valuable than the conscript himself.
But some people prefer to see the IG as Delta Forces in Space, I guess. Nothing wrong with that - just pick one of them more fancy regiments that cater to this sort of preference. Just don't tell others they're "wrong" or have "misconceptions".
Romer wrote:If the guard wasn't achieving positive K / D ratios in victories over renegade/other humans, Orks, Tau and Tryanids, they wouldn't be winning many wars.
Of course they could, as long as they have more troops. Did you see how large the IoM is?
If the guard wasn't achieving positive K ratios in victories over renegade/other humans, Orks, Tau and Tryanids, they wouldn't be winning many wars.
It's a misconception that there is anything approaching K2D ratios in 40K. Even Space Marine Chapters of barely 1000 Marines (if they're lucky) die "by the hundreds" every other Tuesday despite saving the day each and every time and no apparent harm done to their fighting strenght despite the decade long process of recruiting new Marines. Same goes for the IG, with a vengance.
There are only ever two numbers in 40K. A) the [implausibly large number] and B) the [implausibly small number].
That leaves three options:
1: If IG happen to be the "good" guys in any given narration, than, like all 40K-prose-protagonists, an [implausibly small number] of Guardsman will fight and win against an [implausibly large number] of enemies.
2: If IG are the "bad" guys in any given narration (say a novel from CSM-Perspective), than an [implausibly small number] of the protagonist faction will fight and win against an [implausibly large number] of IG.
3. If IG are secondary and provide context to a given narration (say a novel from Loyalist-SM-Perspective), than an [implausibly large number] of IG will die to an [implausibly large number] of enemies, so that ultimately the [implausibly small number] of Protagonists can bail them out by fighting and defeating the [implausibly large number] of enemies.
Personally, I think it makes the setting more dark and even more heroic, considering that these troops must have above-average dedication and conviction to pull off something like that. It's the WW2 Red Army factor, if you will. Mostly limited to the "Xtra-Grimdark Regiments" like Valhallans and Krieg, though, where their entire description is basically dripping with nihilism. And yet they still manage to come through and save the day. That is what I like about them. With the Space Marines, it's just nothing special, but with the Guard, they've got to have, as they say, "balls of steel". The more difficult it seems for them to achieve victory, the more impressive it is, imo.
i think its amazing how the two fluffs of Imperial guard contradict themselves.
it says that imperial guards throw their life down withot question in battle to advance on the enemy and thousdands, thens of thousands, hundreds of thousands, die every battle...
yet a imperial guard regiment is made up of somthing between 4000-8000 soilders...there is i think 431 cadian regiments so that is 2.8 million soilders on average. that seems pathetic considering there are countries today with bigger armies..
spaceXjam wrote:yet a imperial guard regiment is made up of somthing between 4000-8000 soilders...
The number of troops in a regiment is highly variable and depends on the condition of the soldiers in it. For example, there are Valhallan regiments with over a hundred thousand troops in them. The Munitorum merely demands that each regiment's fighting strength is somewhat equal to another, so obviously Cadian regiments with their superior training and equipment would be somewhat smaller.
They were out in huge numbers, Armoured Regiment, Infantry Regiments, Drop Regiment, Superheavy det, etc. But their Lord General was subordinated to the Iron Hands Clan Commander.
They did their jobs, they tried their best, but their commander was never in on the big picture, and so they died in droves.
nomotog wrote:Exactly! The biggest misconception about IG is that they should be more elite, but they are so much more compelling as the underdogs.
Of course they're the underdogs. But that doesn't make them incompetent useless soldiers where the default strategy is simply to zerg at the enemy to drown him in numbers.
I'm not trying to argue that against the biggest threats in the galaxy that the Imperial Guard stand as equals. But they stand against them as competent soldiers. Most guard units win because of tactics, strategy and the spirit to get the job done no matter the cost. Not because their commanders march them at the enemy until they run out of bullets.
If the guard wasn't achieving positive K ratios in victories over renegade/other humans, Orks, Tau and Tryanids, they wouldn't be winning many wars.
You don't need a positive K to win. IG do win most of their battles by outnumbering the enemy. If their was a core IG battle plan, it would be zerg rush. Then they put different spins on it. Artillery shell rush and Tank rush are good examples. IG can and do use different tactics, but they always use large numbers no matter what they do. Even the different elite guard units still work in regiments 10,000 strong.
It would be hard for IG to have a overall positive K ratio when fighting the tau.
You don't need a positive K to win. IG do win most of their battles by outnumbering the enemy. If their was a core IG battle plan, it would be zerg rush. Then they put different spins on it. Artillery shell rush and Tank rush are good examples. IG can and do use different tactics, but they always use large numbers no matter what they do. Even the different elite guard units still work in regiments 10,000 strong.
It would be hard for IG to have a overall positive K ratio when fighting the tau.
Someone is a bit obsessed with these rushes, played too many RTS games maybe?
Generally the Guard has tactics and strategy and tends to win as the IG is to stubborn to give up, ever.
If one pays attention to the background and also the most recent in 6th ed, IG can afford casualties that would annihilate small empires and the cousins of said empire and spome neighboring empires too.
So "rushes" aren't the common modus operandi of the IG and K ratios are irrelevant as the IG can happily run with ratio any species except orks and nids cannot survive.
This is one of the more glaring areas where studio vs expansion material differs with regards to 40k.
GW makes it clear that the Guard are hordes of terrified conscripts who fight courageously or are shot by their brutal commissars, sent by their uncaring commanders to die in human wave attacks. Firepower is prevalent but inaccurate and inefficient. Entire systems are conscripted to fight desperate wars against horrific enemies who outmatch the individual Guardsmen in every sense.
Meanwhile, BL fiction (particularly the Cain series) and by and large much of the fanbase portrays the Guard as an elite, professional, and highly competent force. They are a match for Space Marines, Lasguns can penetrate Power Armor, they are better marksmen than the Tau. Guardsmen are highly motivated, intelligent, and many dismiss the fanatical instructions and dogma of their commanders. Operations are conducted by caring and sympathetic commanders in a highly professional and efficient combined-arms fashion. The enemy is well known, quite defeatable, and respected.
A certain reason for this differentiation probably has to do with what Regiments are most often portrayed. Cadians, Catachans, Krieg, Elysians, and so on are the cream of the crop and most famed forces of the Guard. By and large, most Regiments will be far less spectacular and far more desperately assembled.
In any regard, personally I find the GW depiction of the Guard fits the universe far better (grimdark), but to each their own.
Its in there. They are on full power(All lasguns in Abnettsville have variable power settings) which has always been stated as capable of burning through PA.
Most lasguns do not have a variable power setting(or are limited in the setting options) so guardsmen conserve their ammo.
Grey Templar wrote:Its in there. They are on full power(All lasguns in Abnettsville have variable power settings) which has always been stated as capable of burning through PA.
Most lasguns do not have a variable power setting(or are limited in the setting options) so guardsmen conserve their ammo.
Yes. But Abnett, even more so than most BL writers, has always been outspoken about using "creative license" with writing BL novels and not being bound to "canon". He's been into more than one fight with GW studio over this. He's stated many times that he sees his work as "a different interpretation."
Example starts below at about 17:40 to about 18:50 (or possibly to the very end).
Zweischneid wrote:He's stated many times that he sees his work as "a different interpretation."
So pretty much what Gav Thorpe said about any 40k novel being written, ever.
That said, it may be of note that lasguns with variable power settings (the apparently rare "Triplex-pattern") have been mentioned in studio material as well - even way back to GW's Inquisitor RPG, though it has been mentioned in the 5E Guard Codex again, and was recently referenced by FFG in the (rather awesome) Guard RPG "Only War" too (in spite of their earlier claim that variable power settings would be heretical modifications, and as such only available in the Black Crusade RPG).
Harriticus wrote:Meanwhile, BL fiction (particularly the Cain series) and by and large much of the fanbase portrays the Guard as an elite, professional, and highly competent force. They are a match for Space Marines, Lasguns can penetrate Power Armor, they are better marksmen than the Tau. Guardsmen are highly motivated, intelligent, and many dismiss the fanatical instructions and dogma of their commanders. Operations are conducted by caring and sympathetic commanders in a highly professional and efficient combined-arms fashion. The enemy is well known, quite defeatable, and respected.
Zweischneid wrote:He's stated many times that he sees his work as "a different interpretation."
So pretty much what Gav Thorpe said about any 40k novel being written, ever.
Sure. But there seems to be an unspoken bias in a lot of posts here of viewing BL products as "true" canon and bashing the studio for deviating from it (or embracing common misconceptions, as one guy above put it.).
And that is sorta putting the cart before the horse. The GW-studio version is the "canon" one, if any version could conceivable claim to canon at all. BL authors knowingly and purposefully deviate from this "canon" because that is what they do and what is needed to "make it work" for a novel or story.
Zweischneid wrote:Sure. But there seems to be an unspoken bias in a lot of posts here of viewing BL products as "true" canon and bashing the studio for deviating from it (or embracing common misconceptions, as one guy above put it.).
What, really?
I mean, I'm aware that this occasionally happens the other way around - hell, I've been a fervent believer in "GW = canon, everything else = not" for years until having collected enough author quotes to see the actual message, but there's really people complaining about GW not sticking to what some freelance BL author or an outsourced licensee comes up with?
PresidentOfAsia wrote:Then I guess the catachans and tanith are uninteresting...
The catachan book was a lot more enjoyable then the space wolves omnibus though
It's not so much that as compared to the Space Marines, Grey Knights, Eldar etc etc every other race is individually more powerful than the individual Guardsman no matter how 'elite' that Guardsman is compared to his peers. That is why the Guard are more interesting, because they have the full range of human emotions that the other races lack (in general, ignoring elements like Krieg), they're equipped with the weaker weapons in the universe (although the lasgun is still damned powerful by human standards) and they often have to face off against forces which are among their worst nightmares.
that's precisely what makes them uninteresting to me.
when i had my DKoK and SL armies, their fluff was supposed to be that they were this very elite group. Then I realized that the lowliest ultramarine is more than 50x as elite, and that alone was enough for me to stop playing guard.
I now have my World Eaters and I know they're elite.
Twiqbal wrote:when i had my DKoK and SL armies, their fluff was supposed to be that they were this very elite group. Then I realized that the lowliest ultramarine is more than 50x as elite, and that alone was enough for me to stop playing guard.
Not sure what "SL" is, but what exactly about "World War 1 Trench Warfare Germans" was screaming elite to you?
Either way, I think you've found yourself a good solution. The Imperium (and its "Chaos version") offers a wide range of armies (and subtypes of armies) to cater for every possible taste, from the lowliest zerg rush IG regiment to the most fancy and "special" Marine Chapter capable of conquering entire sectors with a single company. All of us have a different perception of how terms such as "grimdark", "incompetent", "exaggerated", "epic" or "marysue" are defined, and all of us have different preferences. GW manages to cater to all of them, so we should all be happy with what we got, no?
spaceXjam wrote:yet a imperial guard regiment is made up of somthing between 4000-8000 soilders...
The number of troops in a regiment is highly variable and depends on the condition of the soldiers in it. For example, there are Valhallan regiments with over a hundred thousand troops in them. The Munitorum merely demands that each regiment's fighting strength is somewhat equal to another, so obviously Cadian regiments with their superior training and equipment would be somewhat smaller.
Twiqbal wrote:when i had my DKoK and SL armies, their fluff was supposed to be that they were this very elite group. Then I realized that the lowliest ultramarine is more than 50x as elite, and that alone was enough for me to stop playing guard.
Not sure what "SL" is, but what exactly about "World War 1 Trench Warfare Germans" was screaming elite to you?
Either way, I think you've found yourself a good solution. The Imperium (and its "Chaos version") offers a wide range of armies (and subtypes of armies) to cater for every possible taste, from the lowliest zerg rush IG regiment to the most fancy and "special" Marine Chapter capable of conquering entire sectors with a single company. All of us have a different perception of how terms such as "grimdark", "incompetent", "exaggerated", "epic" or "marysue" are defined, and all of us have different preferences. GW manages to cater to all of them, so we should all be happy with what we got, no?
Really I consider the DKoK to be an "elite" Guard regiment, not Stormtrooper level but up there with the Cadians and Catachans. They're certainly one of the most highly decorated Regiments. Where they stand out has more to do with their tenacity/refusal to retreat in both attack and defense and skill at siege/trench warfare than simply having company's of well-rounded infantry.
The average Regiments aren't represented in studio fluff really. GW itself says the regiments we're exposed to are the most famed and renown. Meanwhile the bottom-of-the-barrel Regiments can be armed with muskets and spears.
Harriticus wrote:Really I consider the DKoK to be an "elite" Guard regiment, not Stormtrooper level but up there with the Cadians and Catachans. They're certainly one of the most highly decorated Regiments. Where they stand out has more to do with their tenacity/refusal to retreat in both attack and defense and skill at siege/trench warfare than simply having company's of well-rounded infantry.
Hmmh, I suppose it hinges on what constitutes "elite". Without doubt the Death Korps are one of the most stubborn regiments out there, right up with the Mordians, but the idea of trench warfare in itself just conjures images of thousands of men charging into waiting guns, then rinse and repeat until one side runs dry of ammunition or reinforcements, and that didn't really seem "elite" to me. Might be just my perception of it, tho. I am fairly reluctant to attribute the "elite" tag to any IG force other than the Storm Troopers. It depends on what one is comparing them to, however ... other troops in the galaxy? Other Imperial forces? Or just other Guard regiments? If the latter, then yeah, I guess you could call them somewhat elite, but I don't think this was what Twiqbal was getting at, considering he switched to Marines soon after.
Harriticus wrote:The average Regiments aren't represented in studio fluff really. GW itself says the regiments we're exposed to are the most famed and renown. Meanwhile the bottom-of-the-barrel Regiments can be armed with muskets and spears.
Well, they'd still have lasguns, at least according to the codices. Type of body armour, additional equipment, training, even transportation (or lack thereof) are the things that might differ a lot, though, and which would make a soldier less effective than another. We just have to look at the real world to see what an impact this can have on a battle.
That said, it also depends a lot on the "combinations" of who is fighting what. Most IG regiments seem fairly specialized, and even the Attilan Rough Riders have a place where they'd excel.
spaceXjam wrote:
Lynata wrote:
spaceXjam wrote:yet a imperial guard regiment is made up of somthing between 4000-8000 soilders...
The number of troops in a regiment is highly variable and depends on the condition of the soldiers in it. For example, there are Valhallan regiments with over a hundred thousand troops in them. The Munitorum merely demands that each regiment's fighting strength is somewhat equal to another, so obviously Cadian regiments with their superior training and equipment would be somewhat smaller.
At least that's what it says in the IG Codex.
cadians have 4000-8000 men in a regiment.
That would fit to what I wrote, then, wouldn't it?
@Lynata I agree with you on the "Eliteness" of DKoK. This maybe heretical, but I dislike them. Army of WW1 clones who only fight trench warfare style, not my preferred style of Guardsmen.
The current Guard Codex, plus Abnetts and Mitchel's books paint the picture of a competent military force, capable of fighting and winning war against most enemies. Which is nice. The thing is their only humans in a galaxy of super humans, evil super humans, Lighting Fast elves, orks and soulless robots. Even if they win, its going to cost them lives. Which is what I like about them. If I read a story, I rather it have a hard fought battle, then a story about how space knights drop in, kill stuff, win, go back to the monastery, polish their armor, repeat. Marines bore me.
I do believe GW makes guard seem to be a bunch of cowardly die in mass idiots because they need to write stories about how their space knights get to be the best-est winners ever. So they have to make the IG lose. Which is the same reason PDF's are written to be incompetent screw ups who die to the man, its to make the IG look good.
spaceXjam wrote:yet a imperial guard regiment is made up of somthing between 4000-8000 soilders...
The number of troops in a regiment is highly variable and depends on the condition of the soldiers in it. For example, there are Valhallan regiments with over a hundred thousand troops in them. The Munitorum merely demands that each regiment's fighting strength is somewhat equal to another, so obviously Cadian regiments with their superior training and equipment would be somewhat smaller.
At least that's what it says in the IG Codex.
cadians have 4000-8000 men in a regiment.
According to the 5th ed. codex regiments can be anywhere from about 1,500-120,000 personnel, not including camp followers. Honestly it has little to do with training or equipment, just the customs of the homeworld. If the regiments are too big and elite to actually be of use (for example, when will you ever need 120,000 grenadiers in a single engagement), it would probably just be split into independent companies, or perhaps the regiment size would be capped. Regardless size is more dependent on culture and resources than anything else, if you are fielding a heavy armoured regiment (stuff like the macharius, smaller than a baneblade but bigger than a russ) you might have maybe 3 tanks per squadron, 4 squadrons per company, and 4 companies per regiment leaving you with just 48 tanks and probably around 200-400 tank crew not including techpriests and other support officers, while if you are from a hive world that is fielding infantry regiments they could easily number over a hundred thousand simply because you have the resources and it simplifies keeping track of your numerous forces (easier to keep track of 10 huge regiments than 100 small regiments).
Automatically Appended Next Post:
ObliviousBlueCaboose wrote: Which is the same reason PDF's are written to be incompetent screw ups who die to the man, its to make the IG look good.
The PDF was going to write an angry response but they were killed to a man.
ObliviousBlueCaboose wrote:The current Guard Codex, plus Abnetts and Mitchel's books paint the picture of a competent military force, capable of fighting and winning war against most enemies.
From my experience Abnett's and Mitchell's books in particular deviate heavily from GW's own material. Not that I'm necessarily trying to paint the Guard as "incompetent". In my opinion, most IG regiments hit just the right spot between "incompetent" and "elite". Just the right amount of casual disregard for the value of a soldier's life to make it grimdark, and just the right amount of determination and persistence to still be victorious most of the time. In Codex material, the Imperial Guard has always been described as a slow and unwieldy steamhammer that takes months to mobilize - but once it's deployed, few enemies are able to withstand the immense pressure resulting out of the Guard committing its men to a war of attrition. The kind of campaign not even the Space Marines would be able to win. And anything that makes the Marines "less perfect" or less suitable to some job than another Imperial force is a big plus, imho, as I like the idea of "narrative balance" (lest you just end up with omnipotent mary-sues, and a few individual Chapters are dangerously close to this level due to the hype surrounding their "coolness").
ObliviousBlueCaboose wrote:I do believe GW makes guard seem to be a bunch of cowardly die in mass idiots because they need to write stories about how their space knights get to be the best-est winners ever. So they have to make the IG lose.
Yeah, that's a noticeable trend. Not as bad as the SoB, but on the other hand it may seem worse because more sources mention the IG at all.
On the other hand, I believe that (just like with the more pessimistic SoB players) a lot of IG players may seem to forget those epic battles where the Guard did carry victory or managed to pull off some epic feat. Colonel Straken strangling a CSM Lord comes to mind, to name just one example. And that's directly from Codex material, not just some BL shenanigans.
ObliviousBlueCaboose wrote:The current Guard Codex, plus Abnetts and Mitchel's books paint the picture of a competent military force, capable of fighting and winning war against most enemies.
From my experience Abnett's and Mitchell's books in particular deviate heavily from GW's own material. Not that I'm necessarily trying to paint the Guard as "incompetent". In my opinion, most IG regiments hit just the right spot between "incompetent" and "elite". Just the right amount of casual disregard for the value of a soldier's life to make it grimdark, and just the right amount of determination and persistence to still be victorious most of the time. In Codex material, the Imperial Guard has always been described as a slow and unwieldy steamhammer that takes months to mobilize - but once it's deployed, few enemies are able to withstand the immense pressure resulting out of the Guard committing its men to a war of attrition. The kind of campaign not even the Space Marines would be able to win. And anything that makes the Marines "less perfect" or less suitable to some job than another Imperial force is a big plus, imho, as I like the idea of "narrative balance" (lest you just end up with omnipotent mary-sues, and a few individual Chapters are dangerously close to this level due to the hype surrounding their "coolness").
ObliviousBlueCaboose wrote:I do believe GW makes guard seem to be a bunch of cowardly die in mass idiots because they need to write stories about how their space knights get to be the best-est winners ever. So they have to make the IG lose.
Yeah, that's a noticeable trend. Not as bad as the SoB, but on the other hand it may seem worse because more sources mention the IG at all.
On the other hand, I believe that (just like with the more pessimistic SoB players) a lot of IG players may seem to forget those epic battles where the Guard did carry victory or managed to pull off some epic feat. Colonel Straken strangling a CSM Lord comes to mind, to name just one example. And that's directly from Codex material, not just some BL shenanigans.
I'm not a Sisters fan but the way GW treats them is horrible. Need something killed, maimed, or used as lubricant for your armor, turn to the Sisters.
I dont forget the fluff where the guard did manage a victory or an aepic feat, but I'm always ready to bust Spess mahreens down a few pegs.
Harriticus wrote:Really I consider the DKoK to be an "elite" Guard regiment, not Stormtrooper level but up there with the Cadians and Catachans. They're certainly one of the most highly decorated Regiments. Where they stand out has more to do with their tenacity/refusal to retreat in both attack and defense and skill at siege/trench warfare than simply having company's of well-rounded infantry.
Hmmh, I suppose it hinges on what constitutes "elite". Without doubt the Death Korps are one of the most stubborn regiments out there, right up with the Mordians, but the idea of trench warfare in itself just conjures images of thousands of men charging into waiting guns, then rinse and repeat until one side runs dry of ammunition or reinforcements, and that didn't really seem "elite" to me. Might be just my perception of it, tho. I am fairly reluctant to attribute the "elite" tag to any IG force other than the Storm Troopers. It depends on what one is comparing them to, however ... other troops in the galaxy? Other Imperial forces? Or just other Guard regiments? If the latter, then yeah, I guess you could call them somewhat elite, but I don't think this was what Twiqbal was getting at, considering he switched to Marines soon after.
I wouldn't call the DKoK "elite" (although their engineers or grenadiers could certainly be called such), their real usefulness is their willingness to die. Korpsmen rarely think anything of throwing away their lives to the Imperium to the point where the DKoK army list doesn't even have a refractor field for their commanders.
Personally I picture the DKoK as willing to die, but not willing to waste their life.
If there's a position that can be taken, but needs a squad or two to play the living targets, the DKoK guardsmen will volunteer without hesitation or question, however its not the whole platoon that will charge to their death.
Basically, they use tactics, but if a situation requires the sacrifice of some troops, well its just another to serve the Imperium.
I consider DKOK a high-tier Regiment, "elite" in the Imperial Guard setting (though not really so if you include other non-Guard forces in the Imperium). A DKOK Regiment will do better in most situations, by and large, then your run-of-the-mill Regiments. This is true for all the famed units, Cadian, Catachan, Vostroyans, and so on.
The Munitorium considers the Death Korps second only to the Adeptus Astartes in combat effectiveness and their ability to breach "inpregnable" defensive positions.
KamikazeCanuck wrote:The Munitorium considers the Death Korps second only to the Adeptus Astartes in combat effectiveness and their ability to breach "inpregnable" defensive positions.
Next to Titan-Legions, drop-podding SoB and the Munitorum's own specialized Sapper Regiment, I find that somewhat hard to believe. Is this a statement out of some Forgeworld book?
I do believe they are the best Guard regiment for siege warfare, however. At least I'm not aware of any of the other famous ones having a claim of this sort. They all seem to specialize on different aspects.
And for a true war of attrition, they might even be the best Imperial force overall - and yes, that includes being even better than the Space Marines at this task.
KamikazeCanuck wrote:The Munitorium considers the Death Korps second only to the Adeptus Astartes in combat effectiveness and their ability to breach "inpregnable" defensive positions.
Next to Titan-Legions, drop-podding SoB and the Munitorum's own specialized Sapper Regiment, I find that somewhat hard to believe. Is this a statement out of some Forgeworld book?
Yes, the Seige of Vraks. And yes, they are all much more effective than all of those things.
Harriticus wrote: Meanwhile, BL fiction (particularly the Cain series) and by and large much of the fanbase portrays the Guard as an elite, professional, and highly competent force....Guardsmen are highly motivated, intelligent, and many dismiss the fanatical instructions and dogma of their commanders. Operations are conducted by caring and sympathetic commanders in a highly professional and efficient combined-arms fashion. The enemy is well known, quite defeatable, and respected.
To be fair, the Valhallan 597th was made up of Guardsmen that survived a Tyranid Invasion, kinda weeds out the weak and leaves only the strong. As for caring officers, both the Colonel and Major were the few surviving officers, both company commanders, so they may have a closer connection to the troops then normal.
ObliviousBlueCaboose wrote:I do believe GW makes guard seem to be a bunch of cowardly die in mass idiots because they need to write stories about how their space knights get to be the best-est winners ever. So they have to make the IG lose.
This in particular bothers me because if they made the Guard out to look like a competent military force it would be a lot more impressive when they're in trouble and the super space knights come along and save them. By making the Guard seem actually competent it shows how ridiculously deadly and horrifying the galaxy is, if Guardsmen (in general, local variances notwithstanding) are the equals or betters of current Western troops then that makes things like the Eldar or Marines or whatever flavour seem downright terrifying because they're so much more skilled than the best that humanity can produce.
Well, how would "current Western troops" fare against an enemy like Orks or Eldar?
And I think y'all need to read the Codex Planetstrike and its "Glorious Assaults" and "Infamous Invasions" sections to have yer faith in the Guard restored...
Stop staring at the books intended to hype the Marines!
KamikazeCanuck wrote:Yes, the Seige of Vraks. And yes, they are all much more effective than all of those things.
Ahh ... I think I will treat that bit like the other oursourced material, then, as far as my own assessment of the various sources is concerned. But thanks for the confirmation.
In Dan Abnetts Gaunts Ghosts series, most specially The Armour of Contempt, Dalin Criid encounters a bloodthirster. Not only him but several other companies of gaurdsmen. The IG took Gereon and as far as i now none were killed for seeing daemons and most got shipped out to Jago. Gaunt and his stealth team that went to Gereon previously also encountered daemons but the Inquisition killed none of them for seeing this.
Yes and in the books leading up to that they inquisition more or less wrote the whole bunch of them off as taint proof. And yes you may be right and it for sure isn't an every time thing. But if the Grey knights show up everyone is likely to die. The GK codex has every world they touch being purged and every marine chapter they work with being mind wiped.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Harriticus wrote:I consider DKOK a high-tier Regiment, "elite" in the Imperial Guard setting (though not really so if you include other non-Guard forces in the Imperium). A DKOK Regiment will do better in most situations, by and large, then your run-of-the-mill Regiments. This is true for all the famed units, Cadian, Catachan, Vostroyans, and so on.
This is only true when you have them fighting at what they are good at. They would likely be killed to a man without doing anything if you had them up against a highly mobile enemy. If you need a fortress taken out call the DKOK. If you need to fight a highly mobile gorilla war call the Tallarn. They are all good at what they are trained and raised to do. Im sure even the gangers from a hive are some of the best urban warfare fighters the imperium has because they have been doing it for years before they become part of the guard.
Lynata wrote:
KamikazeCanuck wrote:The Munitorium considers the Death Korps second only to the Adeptus Astartes in combat effectiveness and their ability to breach "inpregnable" defensive positions.
Next to Titan-Legions, drop-podding SoB and the Munitorum's own specialized Sapper Regiment, I find that somewhat hard to believe. Is this a statement out of some Forgeworld book?
I do believe they are the best Guard regiment for siege warfare, however. At least I'm not aware of any of the other famous ones having a claim of this sort. They all seem to specialize on different aspects.
And for a true war of attrition, they might even be the best Imperial force overall - and yes, that includes being even better than the Space Marines at this task.
It takes a lot of effort to move a titan legion and then they need to have the resources to keep it running. I bet the DKOK is more cost effective to send off at the enemy then a titan legion even with the crazy high fatality rates.
White Ninja wrote:It takes a lot of effort to move a titan legion and then they need to have the resources to keep it running. I bet the DKOK is more cost effective to send off at the enemy then a titan legion even with the crazy high fatality rates.
Well, it takes a 2km starship to move Titans, and it takes a 2km starship to move a Guard regiment... I don't think that the difference in deployment is actually that big. Fatality rates likely mean that you need to plan even more trips to support the troops with supplies and reinforcements.
Of course Death Korps regiments are way easier to replace than Titans, so I suppose this may influence the decision of what's regarded as more efficient.
Lynata wrote:Well, how would "current Western troops" fare against an enemy like Orks or Eldar?
Eldar could be problematic. Orks would get annihilated.
Any army that's combat doctrine is basically "mass waves of infantry and armor" would get rolled. Modern military strategy doesn't screw around with things like epic fireifights and duels, heroics etc. A fight of an Ork Waaagh versus modern day United States would look something like:
CNN: And now we take you to President Obama's live speech.
OBAMA: My fellow Americans. At approximately 3:27pm Wednesday evening, a massive Ork warband touched down in France. Before surrendering, and subsequently being killed to a man, the French military managed to identify the leader of this warband, a Warboss named BigThraka. Yesterday evening, my military staff informed me that one of our Predator drones had acquired a positive ID on the location of Warboss BigThraka. At approximately 4:30pm I authorized the use of an Intercontinental Ballistic Missile. At 4:40pm, one such missile was launched from a silo in North Dakota, where it then traveled across the country, over the Atlantic ocean and detonated directly above BigThraka's base camp. We have visual confirmation that BigThraka, all of his lieutenants, and a sizable portion of the warband within that vicinity have been incinerated, and that without those leaders, the Ork chain of command has collapsed, and the various warbands making up the Waagh have resorted to mass in-fighting. Over the next week, US and NATO forces will perform systematic air strikes to mop up the survivors, while Haliburton corp. seeks to rebuild France."
That would be the end of the Waagh, and Obama would win re-election.
That's basically how fights with Orks would go. Of course in reality, any WH40K faction woul just use their Navy to kill us all. But planetside our superior tactics would win the day.
It's kind of funny in a way. For the sake of being entertaining, WH40K warfare is basically done in a a WW2 format. "Learn how to win the last war just in time to lose the next one" and all that...
There's a case to be made for the Titan Legions being as effective as Death Korps at cracking a fortified position however Titan's tend to obliterate their target rather than breech it. Quite frankly, if you're going that route you might as well nuke it. If they do breech it then you still have to send in infantry anyway and guess who's the best ones to send in.
Grey Templar wrote:Of course you can have multiple regiments on that 2km long starship.
Depending on which source you go by, and the size of the regiment.
Though even if that were possible, there's that small inconvenience that these multiple regiments would have to be picked up from multiple places, which would greatly increase deployment time and resources spent on transportation (fuel, food, etc).
It's not like you go to Krieg and order 5 regiments at the fly-thru. By default, 1 tithe means 1 regiment. If you want more, you gotta pick up those that have been raised in the past. Of course the Munitorum has the authority to demand more than one regiment in times of crisis, but that would obviously strain the planet's resources in a way that it likely wouldn't be able to meet the next tithe, which is precisely why it's not done unless there is a pressing need.
Grey Templar wrote:Of course you can have multiple regiments on that 2km long starship.
Depending on which source you go by, and the size of the regiment.
Though even if that were possible, there's that small inconvenience that these multiple regiments would have to be picked up from multiple places, which would greatly increase deployment time and resources spent on transportation (fuel, food, etc).
It's not like you go to Krieg and order 5 regiments at the fly-thru. By default, 1 tithe means 1 regiment. If you want more, you gotta pick up those that have been raised in the past. Of course the Munitorum has the authority to demand more than one regiment in times of crisis, but that would obviously strain the planet's resources in a way that it likely wouldn't be able to meet the next tithe, which is precisely why it's not done unless there is a pressing need.
Where are you getting this 1 tithe equals 1 regiment? It's definately not that way on Krieg or Catachan. Even Tanith was tithed 3 regiments at once. Each tithe is customized to each planet.
You're right, this was changed in-between editions.
Old Codex: All troops recruited from a planet at one time form a single regiment. Back then, this was taken as an explanation on why regiments vary in size.
New Codex: Depending on the world's tithe grade, more than one regiment may be recruited. The new explanation for varying regimental sizes is their effective combat power, so that a regiment of Cadian Shock Troops has the same strategic value as a regiment of Randomworld Farmer Conscripts - the latter will just have lots more men to make up for lack in training and equipment.
My bad!
Still, I'm a bit miffed at someone at Forgeworld discarding the CJ army list and Andy Hoare's drop-podding Sisters. That, and I think the Munitorum's own Sapper Regiment should hold the IG trophy of breaching fortifications in the most efficient way.
Thing is it's all very well making a breach (which the DKoK can do very well with their masses of artillery) but then you need the troops to take the breach. A breach in a fortification, as history has shown, becomes a meat-grinder very quickly, hence the old adage of needing 3:1 to beat the defender, 5:1 in an establish position, 10:1 in a fortified position. The horrors of climbing up a pile of rubble to go between the shoulders of broken wall with explosions going off around you, shots plucking men back, the stench of blood, explosives, firearms stinging the nostrils, is not a pleasant experience. In order to carry a breach you need troops who won't stop moving forward, who will ignore the losses & press on, who will be willing to drown the enemy in their bodies so that those who follow-on can capture the position - hence why the Death Korp are the best siege troops the Imperium has & they fully deserve that accolade. They have the numbers, the equipment, the know-how & the zealous determination to carry the day.
(By the way, like your OW character link in your sig - just been mapping out the...maps for my chaps first mission with the OW beta.)
Lynata wrote:You're right, this was changed in-between editions.
Old Codex: All troops recruited from a planet at one time form a single regiment. Back then, this was taken as an explanation on why regiments vary in size.
New Codex: Depending on the world's tithe grade, more than one regiment may be recruited. The new explanation for varying regimental sizes is their effective combat power, so that a regiment of Cadian Shock Troops has the same strategic value as a regiment of Randomworld Farmer Conscripts - the latter will just have lots more men to make up for lack in training and equipment.
My bad!
Still, I'm a bit miffed at someone at Forgeworld discarding the CJ army list and Andy Hoare's drop-podding Sisters. That, and I think the Munitorum's own Sapper Regiment should hold the IG trophy of breaching fortifications in the most efficient way.
The DkoK has it's own engineering corps which are super hardcore. It's not unusual for them to spend years digging underground to break a seige. Quite frankly, it's ridiculus to not refer to FW about DKoK stuff. The Sisters aren't discounted; they're army is very nice and fancy but the Munitorium is basing this on straight up war-record. The DkoK are the best. Unleashing the Death Korps is like deploying a weapon of mass destruction.
Sparks_Havelock wrote:Thing is it's all very well making a breach (which the DKoK can do very well with their masses of artillery) but then you need the troops to take the breach. A breach in a fortification, as history has shown, becomes a meat-grinder very quickly, hence the old adage of needing 3:1 to beat the defender, 5:1 in an establish position, 10:1 in a fortified position. The horrors of climbing up a pile of rubble to go between the shoulders of broken wall with explosions going off around you, shots plucking men back, the stench of blood, explosives, firearms stinging the nostrils, is not a pleasant experience. In order to carry a breach you need troops who won't stop moving forward, who will ignore the losses & press on, who will be willing to drown the enemy in their bodies so that those who follow-on can capture the position - hence why the Death Korp are the best siege troops the Imperium has & they fully deserve that accolade. They have the numbers, the equipment, the know-how & the zealous determination to carry the day.
You make a very convincing argument.
And I suppose drop-podding might not exactly count as breaching, anyways.
Sparks_Havelock wrote:By the way, like your OW character link in your sig - just been mapping out the...maps for my chaps first mission with the OW beta.
Thanks!
We'll run our 2nd session in just a few minutes. Gotta hold that trench!
KamikazeCanuck wrote:The Sisters aren't discounted; they're army is very nice and fancy but the Munitorium is basing this on straight up war-record.
Nah, the FW writers just have a habit of forgetting them. A Rogue Cardinal of the Ecclesiarchy, and the one force that has policing such cases in their main job description doesn't show up? Please.
Brother Thomas wrote:Yeah well in fluff it's regular dudes fighting horrible atrocities. War is hell and I think that showing them dying so easily contributes to showing how badass the astartes are. Not only that as I said before they're regular men, yes with some training, but as you said only 4 months of training. That's really not that much even by todays standards
And that's if they are lucky. They are off to fight some abomination unto God, that could easily shrug off almost anything, and easily rip a man in half.
The game itself also lends misconceptions to the Guard fluff. I mean the average Guardsmen sucks on the table top. But, in the fluff there are many Guardsmen/units that are bad ass. Hell Gunny Sargent Harker broke a genestealers neck bare handed. Marbo, can kill fething anything, Commissar Yarrick, Commissar Guant, Commissar Cain, Ollanius Pius, Vance melon-fething Stubbs. Here is a good link that shows how bad ass the Guard can be. http://1d4chan.org/wiki/Imperial_Guard
Makarov wrote:The game itself also lends misconceptions to the Guard fluff. I mean the average Guardsmen sucks on the table top. But, in the fluff there are many Guardsmen/units that are bad ass. Hell Gunny Sargent Harker broke a genestealers neck bare handed. Marbo, can kill fething anything, Commissar Yarrick, Commissar Guant, Commissar Cain, Ollanius Pius, Vance melon-fething Stubbs. Here is a good link that shows how bad ass the Guard can be. http://1d4chan.org/wiki/Imperial_Guard
Not only that but if you look at the stats of a single guardsmen and compare it to the units of many other more "elite" factions, you'll notice many similarities, especially the base line 3 stats. For instance, lets look at Inquisitorial Henchmen, they have the same exact stats as a guardsmen but the only thing setting them apart is their storm bolter. In addition, the cheapest eldar troop choice(forgot the name) also has base line 3 stats with the exception of their initiative 4 and str 4 weapon. Also, Space Marine Scouts and blood claws have the same combat prowess as regular guardsmen as well with their ws 3 and bs 3 despite recieving much harsher training and testing before getting their black carapace.
Of course, table top stats don't 100% represent fluff but that could work both ways.
KamikazeCanuck wrote:@Lynata As you know but have forgotten there was quite a turf war between Ordo Herectus and Ordo Malleus that Malleus won and so GKs were deployed.
Yeah, but the Sisters have always been working for the Church first, Inquisition second. The Ordo Hereticus could've stayed out and I would have expected a force of Sororitas either way, simply because we're talking about an Apostate Cardinal here.
KamikazeCanuck wrote:Anyways I didn't know SoBs could even use Drop Pods. Is that in the WD pseudo-dex?
If only...
No, that was a special Strike Force list from GW's Citadel Journal, in an article written by Andy Hoare. It represented a task force specifically geared towards purging a Marine Chapter, and they featured Dominica- and Deathwind-pattern drop pods to deliver the hurts extra-quick. The article stressed the primary mission goal as being the elimination of the Chapter's leadership. Kind of what was attempted with the Sons of Malice I guess.
I actually considered taking a bunch of Marines as allies for 6E just to get drop pods, but then noticed that allies can never share transports.
Makarov wrote:But, in the fluff there are many Guardsmen/units that are bad ass. Hell Gunny Sargent Harker broke a genestealers neck bare handed. Marbo, can kill fething anything, Commissar Yarrick, Commissar Guant, Commissar Cain, Ollanius Pius, Vance melon-fething Stubbs.
I'll never accept Cain as "fitting in", but when you're talking badass Guardsmen, don't forget Colonel Straken - the man who strangled a CSM Lord! Shame that Ollanius Pius had to be retconned from GW's version of events, tho.
On a related note, we failed to hold that trench. Our Comrade-Sergeant fell first, then the whole squad went down one by one. We had some really bad luck with our explosives (grenades rolling back, missiles misfiring) and the Orks were particularly agile this night.
Lynata wrote:And I suppose drop-podding might not exactly count as breaching, anyways.
Well it does, in it's own way, as it bypasses defences such as walls. Problem is delivering enough troops to make the difference.
Lynata wrote:Thanks!
We'll run our 2nd session in just a few minutes. Gotta hold that trench!
I've got to wait a few weeks until I can run my campaign Need to finish a Black Crusade one and a DnD campaign first. Really want to throw the chaps into a 'Cockleshell Commandos meets Guns of Navarone' mission.
Lynata wrote:
KamikazeCanuck wrote:The Sisters aren't discounted; they're army is very nice and fancy but the Munitorium is basing this on straight up war-record.
Nah, the FW writers just have a habit of forgetting them. A Rogue Cardinal of the Ecclesiarchy, and the one force that has policing such cases in their main job description doesn't show up? Please.
Maybe they were told not to put Sisters & Hereticus into Vraks? Afterall GW must proof read the Imperial Armour books otherwise FW could be saying all sorts of things without GWs approval, especially as it was a few years ago when GW seemed to be trying to fade out the Sisters. We'll never find out but yes it is peculiar that the Ordo Hereticus & the Sororitas don't turn up and do their thing. Mind you having the Sisters swoop in & take out the arch-heretic is not so dramatic as 14 million or so Korpsmen dieing to take back the planet yard by bloody yard.
There was a small detachment of Sisters of the Argent Shroud on Vraks protecting the Shrine, remains and relics of St Leonis.
During the early stage of the rebellion, they tried to resist but were overwhelmed by a combination of treachery of the Cardinal himself and superior numbers.
Several were captured, tortured and imprisoned. Six survived the 18 year Siege and became a source of huge debate and issue between elements of the Inquisition. They were condemned by the Conclave of Scarus to the outrage of several Ordo Herecticus Inquisitors. The book implies this was partly politics between the Ordo Malleus and Herecticus
The Sisters were subsequently known as the "Matryrs of Vraks" and the Order of the Argent Shroud considered it a criminal act. The relics of Saint Leonis were not recovered either.
Regarding direct assault - the Astartes considered the citidel far too difficult to assault directly without loss of all ships and marines involved so the same would likely hold true for the Sisters.
Regarding direct assault - the Astartes considered the citidel far too difficult to assault directly without loss of all ships and marines involved so the same would likely hold true for the Sisters.
Indeed, IIRC 1/3rd of the Dark Angels chapter died on Vraks (I think they came in with 500 DA's and left with 200 or something like that? don't have my book here at work...) during their short lived assault on the spaceport, far from the DKoK's main battle lines. Though, to me, that's exactly the sort of actions marines are for (and also shows why the Astartes aren't what many think they are).
The issue with the Sisters isn't that they aren't capable, but there aren't many of them and they lack a lot of capabilities. They work well as elite shock infantry, but they really don't have the capabilities to engage in battles like the Imperial Guard, having no AA guns, no Artillery or similar support weapons, relatively little in the way of Armour, very limited long range anti-tank capabilities, no sappers, etc. They simply do not have the numbers or capabilities within their Orders for certain types of battles.
Mr Morden wrote:There was a small detachment of Sisters of the Argent Shroud on Vraks protecting the Shrine, remains and relics of St Leonis.
Frankly, that doesn't count in my eyes - it's even more worse than omitting them entirely, as it once again stresses that, apparently, all they're good for is dying and getting tortured. It's business as usual, just so that the Spess Mehreens can show how awesome they are.
It just doesn't make a lot of sense that the Ecclesiarchy itself did not care for the issue at all when one of their Cardinals goes rogue.
Fits to Forgeworld's "extensive" range of products for the SoB compared to every other Imperial army, though.
Vaktathi wrote:The issue with the Sisters isn't that they aren't capable, but there aren't many of them and they lack a lot of capabilities. They work well as elite shock infantry, but they really don't have the capabilities to engage in battles like the Imperial Guard, having no AA guns, no Artillery or similar support weapons, relatively little in the way of Armour, very limited long range anti-tank capabilities, no sappers, etc. They simply do not have the numbers or capabilities within their Orders for certain types of battles.
True, but you could say the same of the Space Marines. That's what I find weird - either we're talking "rapid insertion" in which the difference between Sisters and Marines is comparatively small, or we're talking siege warfare, in which (with the exception of a few specialized Chapters like the Iron Hands) the Astartes should be less suitable than the DKoK. But maybe it was just the usual "Marines must be #1 no matter what" rule.
Lynata wrote:True, but you could say the same of the Space Marines. That's what I find weird - either we're talking "rapid insertion" in which the difference between Sisters and Marines is comparatively small, or we're talking siege warfare, in which (with the exception of a few specialized Chapters like the Iron Hands) the Astartes should be less suitable than the DKoK. But maybe it was just the usual "Marines must be #1 no matter what" rule.
I don't disagree at all, the Space Marines realistically would be unable to fight many, if not most, of the battles they are portrayed as fighting, they have neither the numbers nor required organic capabilities (and, superhuman or no, can't be in multiple places at once either). No SM chapter (or chapterS) is going to be able to *conquer* a well defended world, at least not one that has any sort of redundant command structure, with a thousand (or even a few thousand) marines against and opponent with millions (or tens of millions/hundreds of millions/etc) of troops, and laying siege to hive cities with hundreds of millions of people with but a thousand marines is ridiculous, but in the end, it is, as you say, Marines #1.
Thinking about it, I suppose one could make the argument that the Munitorum's opinion doesn't have to be very objective. I mean, most likely we're talking pencil pushers (seeing as they have to be in the position to believe they'd be able to compare Imperial forces with each other) who have never actually witnessed the Space Marines in action themselves and rely on public perception. Given how the Imperial bureaucracy works, I doubt that they could compare accurate and objective statistics. Even if they'd have these (which I doubt), they prolly wouldn't be able to find them!
I believe this has been scaled back a little to make the Marines appear more awesome, but I've always rolled with the 2E IG Codex' description of the Astartes being awesome as a rapid reaction force, yet the Guard having to step in once a battle becomes too big. It just makes the most sense to me, and is (or so I believe) a good narrative balance between the various Imperial forces. It just makes the IG seem more important than some sort of auxiliary troops people only want around if there's no Marines nearby.
What are we agreeing on? That Space Marines aren't good at war now? No, I don't agree with that. Once again the Vraks trilogy shows a good example of how Space Marines deal with a situation like that. The Dark Angels strike a furious assualt upon the space port killing many thousands of enemy troops. Their main advantage against superior numbers besides the shock of their attack is that they never tire. The are never not on the offensive for one second. When Marines fight for a week they fight for every second of that 168 hours and that's very difficult to deal with for the enemy.
KamikazeCanuck wrote:What are we agreeing on? That Space Marines aren't good at war now? No, I don't agree with that.
Sorry, I was replying to Vaktathi with that.
Also, "war" is a pretty general and all-encompassing term. If you think that, just for the Space Marines, this includes any subset such as, say, sieges and trench warfare and wars of attrition, and that they have to be the best one for each, then ... well, that'd be your interpretation of them, and much of the more current fluff would agree with you. Some of us prefer every faction having strengths and weaknesses, though, especially when they have been pointed out in the fluff before and where they make perfect sense.
See, and if we're referring to drop podding in from above rather than breaking down the front door, then so are the Sisters.
There's little difference in how both forces are employed, so I just don't agree on the idea that the SoB are left out of the equation entirely and continue to believe that, quite simply, none of the writers at Forge World just has a high opinion of them or is aware of even half the fluff GW wrote about that army.
KamikazeCanuck wrote:What are we agreeing on? That Space Marines aren't good at war now? No, I don't agree with that. Once again the Vraks trilogy shows a good example of how Space Marines deal with a situation like that. The Dark Angels strike a furious assualt upon the space port killing many thousands of enemy troops. Their main advantage against superior numbers besides the shock of their attack is that they never tire. The are never not on the offensive for one second. When Marines fight for a week they fight for every second of that 168 hours and that's very difficult to deal with for the enemy.
To be fair, the statement "Marines aren't good at War" is, or really should be, true. They are good at conducting *battles*, they have neither the numbers, organic capabilities, or supply systems to conduct a full blown war by themselves. They lack significant artillery assets, especially heavy artillery, have very few answers to enemy aircraft (especially in any numbers, and if they've got a half-decent range), and any extensive anti-orbital defense system will make it very difficult for SM ships to stay in close orbit for support, especially given their typically small deployment, and very little in the way of logistical support for extended operations. And Emperor help them if the enemy has extensive amounts of armor, if they have to face lots of tanks on a scale like that seen during the 2nd world war (i.e. pitifully small for the 40k universe), they just don't have enough AT weapons, and can't cover enough ground to prevent themselves from being outflanked/surrounded/bypassed/etc.
Yes, Space Marines can fight on for extended periods of time relative to what a normal human can remain in direct combat for, but don't have the same supply capabilities that the IG do. The SM's would have a very difficult time remaining supplied with ammunition for instance in a battle going more than a few days, especially if not constantly resupplied from their ship.
Yes the Dark Angels killed many thousands of heretic troops on Vraks. Those heretic troops deaths were irrelevant in terms of the strength of the enemy, while the Dark Angels, as a Chapter, was reduced in size to what would by any modern military estimate be considered broken and in dire need of immediate withdrawal for reinforcement, a third of their chapter will never leave Vraks after but a few short days of battle in an 18 year long war that ended with twenty million dead. (IIRC 12 million dead Imperial troops, 8 million dead Vraksian inhabitants).
The Dark Angels accomplished a task in very short order that would have taken the Death Korps and unacceptable amount of time to accomplish. But they fought one battle and left. They did not fight a war.
And to be fair, that's exactly what Space Marines should be, the only problem is that half the time the SM's are portrayed doing what the Death Korps was doing on Vraks like it's no big deal, and there realistically just aren't enough Marines, and they aren't present in enough in enough places, to have the effect they are described as having
KamikazeCanuck wrote:What are we agreeing on? That Space Marines aren't good at war now? No, I don't agree with that. Once again the Vraks trilogy shows a good example of how Space Marines deal with a situation like that. The Dark Angels strike a furious assualt upon the space port killing many thousands of enemy troops. Their main advantage against superior numbers besides the shock of their attack is that they never tire. The are never not on the offensive for one second. When Marines fight for a week they fight for every second of that 168 hours and that's very difficult to deal with for the enemy.
To be fair, the statement "Marines aren't good at War" is, or really should be, true. They are good at conducting *battles*, they have neither the numbers, organic capabilities, or supply systems to conduct a full blown war by themselves. They lack significant artillery assets, especially heavy artillery, have very few answers to enemy aircraft (especially in any numbers, and if they've got a half-decent range), and any extensive anti-orbital defense system will make it very difficult for SM ships to stay in close orbit for support, especially given their typically small deployment, and very little in the way of logistical support for extended operations. And Emperor help them if the enemy has extensive amounts of armor, if they have to face lots of tanks on a scale like that seen during the 2nd world war (i.e. pitifully small for the 40k universe), they just don't have enough AT weapons, and can't cover enough ground to prevent themselves from being outflanked/surrounded/bypassed/etc.
Yes, Space Marines can fight on for extended periods of time relative to what a normal human can remain in direct combat for, but don't have the same supply capabilities that the IG do. The SM's would have a very difficult time remaining supplied with ammunition for instance in a battle going more than a few days, especially if not constantly resupplied from their ship.
Yes the Dark Angels killed many thousands of heretic troops on Vraks. Those heretic troops deaths were irrelevant in terms of the strength of the enemy, while the Dark Angels, as a Chapter, was reduced in size to what would by any modern military estimate be considered broken and in dire need of immediate withdrawal for reinforcement, a third of their chapter will never leave Vraks after but a few short days of battle in an 18 year long war that ended with twenty million dead. (IIRC 12 million dead Imperial troops, 8 million dead Vraksian inhabitants).
The Dark Angels accomplished a task in very short order that would have taken the Death Korps and unacceptable amount of time to accomplish. But they fought one battle and left. They did not fight a war.
And to be fair, that's exactly what Space Marines should be, the only problem is that half the time the SM's are portrayed doing what the Death Korps was doing on Vraks like it's no big deal, and there realistically just aren't enough Marines, and they aren't present in enough in enough places, to have the effect they are described as having
Most of that is reasonable however I'd disagree that Marines have trouble dealing with armour or orbital defense. Attacking a position with strong orbital defense is their specialty, arguably their purpose. Battle Barges are good at that. SM carry around heavy weapons like normal rifles and armour doesn't pose a greater threat to them than other forces. Obviously, they are weak in artillery and air assets. That battle showed Marines do have good logistical supply chains for protracted battles. It's most likely drop based.
As for the causalties, yes they took an astounding amount of casualties. Hundreds as you say. That is why FW stuff is good. The DAs were very effective at what they did but they paid the price too. They didn't just swoop down like Superman and oabsolutely obliterate everything. It was a more realistic portrayal of the combat effectiveness of Space Marines. Not invincible but still very effective.
The DAs didn't withdrawl because of causalties but because their mission was complete. In fact they didn't even remark that the causalties were that worrying which makes me think that Chapters taking those kinds of losses in massive wars like Vraks isn't that unusual. The Raptors had a similarily realistic portrayal in the Taros campaign.
Also a lot of other chapters would have stayed on and tried to break other strongpoints but y'know that's not how Dark Angels roll.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Lynata wrote:See, and if we're referring to drop podding in from above rather than breaking down the front door, then so are the Sisters.
There's little difference in how both forces are employed, so I just don't agree on the idea that the SoB are left out of the equation entirely and continue to believe that, quite simply, none of the writers at Forge World just has a high opinion of them or is aware of even half the fluff GW wrote about that army.
I'm sorry but if I had to pick an Imperial force (and there are many) that had the worst war record in the Imperium it would be the Sisters of Battle. I mean really, how many wins do they actually have on record? Two? Three?
Most of that is reasonable however I'd disagree that Marines have trouble dealing with armour or orbital defense. Attacking a position with strong orbital defense is their specialty, arguably their purpose.
And yet the defenses of Vraks, a relatively minor outpost compared with many worlds, were extensive enough that no Space Marine Chapter would take on the job until long after the Guard landed and even then engaged largely away from the front lines and the well protected (in terms of AA and AO capability) Citadel itself.
Battle Barges are good at that.
Battle Barges are good at pounding landing zones and ground defenses into dust, if big ground based guns are shooting back, then their ability to do that is imperiled and trying to bombard something that's shooting right back is a big risk. Yes, they can do it to some degree, but a single Battle Barge, or even several, are not going to engage a well defended planet on their own. The Vraks citadel by itself was powerful enough that no SM chapter would take it on, and it wasn't by any means the mightiest fortress of the galaxy, it was considered by the Munitorum to be a necessary sideshow that they eventually just wrote-off as a loss and went about business as usual.
SM carry around heavy weapons like normal rifles
Not quite, they carry them around much easier yes, but they are still cumbersome, typically requiring an SM to brace while stationary to fire them with any accuracy.
and armour doesn't pose a greater threat to them than other forces.
Other forces, by which I mean the IG, have the numbers and bigger guns to deal with armor. If an SM company is faced against a full battallion of armor, then there is going to be an issue if for every marine there's an enemy battle tank and the only way most SM's have to hurt a tank requires them to literally climb on top of it, which, unless the tanks are very stupidly trying to drive into a city or dense forest without infantry support, is not likely to happen.
Obviously, they are weak in artillery and air assets. That battle showed Marines do have good logistical supply chains for protracted battles. It's most likely drop based.
I don't recall anything about marine re-supply in most SM fiction, they usually aren't anywhere long enough for it to matter or just never address it, and given the often isolated/cell-like nature of battle companies and the like, it doesn't sound like their ships resupply except upon return to their homeworld typically. If they exhaust the supplies aboard their vessel, or their vessel is driven off/AA defenses prevent drops, they really don't appear to have much alternative, whereas the Munitorum will have vessels constantly on route to warzones with fresh supplies and much more capability with the Imperial Navy to suppress enemy aircraft/anti-orbital defenses.
As for the causalties, yes they took an astounding amount of casualties. Hundreds as you say. That is why FW stuff is good. The DAs were very effective at what they did but they paid the price too. They didn't just swoop down like Superman and oabsolutely obliterate everything. It was a more realistic portrayal of the combat effectiveness of Space Marines. Not invincible but still very effective.
Yup, it was an excellent portrayal of what the SM's should be.
The DAs didn't withdrawl because of causalties but because their mission was complete.
True, but had they taken significantly more casualties there wouldn't have been much left to withdraw with, leaving half the Dark Angels chapter dead in the sand of Vraks. As it is, it's difficult to see isolated chapters of insular warrior-monks who take many years to create and train, keeping pace with such casualties and maintaining operations, especially if average lifespans are as long as they're made out to be. If your numbers are limited to 1000 marines and it takes years to train replacements, losing 300 dudes is going to hurt a lot, and take a very long time to replenish.
In fact they didn't even remark that the causalties were that worrying which makes me think that Chapters taking those kinds of losses in massive wars like Vraks isn't that unusual.
or that the author just didn't realize its significance. Replacing 300 Space Marines takes quite a bit of time that most authors just don't think of or don't address.
Lynata wrote:True, but you could say the same of the Space Marines. That's what I find weird - either we're talking "rapid insertion" in which the difference between Sisters and Marines is comparatively small, or we're talking siege warfare, in which (with the exception of a few specialized Chapters like the Iron Hands) the Astartes should be less suitable than the DKoK. But maybe it was just the usual "Marines must be #1 no matter what" rule.
I don't disagree at all, the Space Marines realistically would be unable to fight many, if not most, of the battles they are portrayed as fighting, they have neither the numbers nor required organic capabilities (and, superhuman or no, can't be in multiple places at once either). No SM chapter (or chapterS) is going to be able to *conquer* a well defended world, at least not one that has any sort of redundant command structure, with a thousand (or even a few thousand) marines against and opponent with millions (or tens of millions/hundreds of millions/etc) of troops, and laying siege to hive cities with hundreds of millions of people with but a thousand marines is ridiculous, but in the end, it is, as you say, Marines #1.
Well, it all depends doesn't it? Do they really need to put boots on the ground and strangle every last enemy to death with their bare hands?
Or can they just fire a few lances from the edge of the system, obliterate a few cities to make a point, and call it a day?
Warfare isn't about killing the other guy, it's about making the other guy do what you want. Take Japan in WWII for example, after the Americans dropped the bombs, they didn't need to launch lengthy, protracted and bloody ground campaigns to annihilate the enemy. They'd made their point, and the Japanese surrendered.
Hive cities would be particularly vulnerable to blockades, with their huge populations and tiny resource output. You'd only need to stop a fraction of the incoming supply ships, and the starving people inside the hives would quickly do your job for you.
KamikazeCanuck wrote:I'm sorry but if I had to pick an Imperial force (and there are many) that had the worst war record in the Imperium it would be the Sisters of Battle. I mean really, how many wins do they actually have on record? Two? Three?
Eh, depends on which sources you want to go by. And whether you want to let lack of writer interest overwrite the capabilities they have according to their background.
Kaldor wrote:Warfare isn't about killing the other guy, it's about making the other guy do what you want. Take Japan in WWII for example, after the Americans dropped the bombs, they didn't need to launch lengthy, protracted and bloody ground campaigns to annihilate the enemy. They'd made their point, and the Japanese surrendered.
Whilst that is true, I recall it being said somewhere that this is actually standard procedure and that the really big operations only happen when the IoM wants to capture the area relatively intact. Wasn't Vraks some huge important fuel depot or am I confusing it with another story now?
Kaldor wrote:Hive cities would be particularly vulnerable to blockades, with their huge populations and tiny resource output. You'd only need to stop a fraction of the incoming supply ships, and the starving people inside the hives would quickly do your job for you.
Good point. Kinda makes you wonder why the Imperium - as far as I'm aware - has never done this in the fluff. On the other hand, with so many yummy civilians on a hive world, it might take months or even years for a Chaos or Ork force to actually go hungry, and in this time they'll go on summoning more demons (if Chaos) or building more war machines (if Orks).
Chaos does have the ability to create warp rifts. Even small localized ones could be used to bring in supplies(i think this has been done before)
Hive Cities do have waste recycling centers to process waste and make Corpse Starch. Its not great and thats why they do import stuff normally, but in an emergency situation they won't starve. Basically Hives can last as long as their power supply is intact. Potentially indefinitly.
Not to mention Riots are fairly common place in the Imperium. You can be sure the lower levels are easily sealed off from the upper levels. It would literally be impossable for those below to make it to the upper levels in any numbers capable of actually posing a threat. Unless they decided to destroy the supports. In which case the entire city would collapse.
Well, it all depends doesn't it? Do they really need to put boots on the ground and strangle every last enemy to death with their bare hands?
In 40k...usually
Or can they just fire a few lances from the edge of the system, obliterate a few cities to make a point, and call it a day?
While theoretically it should be possible, firing lances from the edge of a star system would be very difficult and not something I've ever heard of in 40k.
Warfare isn't about killing the other guy, it's about making the other guy do what you want. Take Japan in WWII for example, after the Americans dropped the bombs, they didn't need to launch lengthy, protracted and bloody ground campaigns to annihilate the enemy. They'd made their point, and the Japanese surrendered.
Well, to be fair, their air force had been destroyed, their navy all but annihilated, their merchant fleets sunk almost to the last ship, their entire national oil reserves less than that of a single carrier battle group's monthly consumption, half their army was in China and Manchuria and about a third of it was already dead, their industrial capability destroyed and their largest cities in ruins...and the thing most people forget is that the Japanese had been anticipating and preparing for war with Russia almost exclusively up until basically 1941, they had a lot of their troops, including many of their best, in Manchuria, and in between the bombs the Soviets invaded and swept through them like as if they were nothing in and took a million prisoners in a couple of days, which to the Japanese government lent at least as much weight as the nuclear bombs did.
So...there was a bit more going on there, and aside from their ground forces (which were scattered and ravaged and much of them unable to make it back), they basically had destroyed everything to the last already.
Hive cities would be particularly vulnerable to blockades, with their huge populations and tiny resource output. You'd only need to stop a fraction of the incoming supply ships, and the starving people inside the hives would quickly do your job for you.
Space Marines are not good at blockades, they simply do not have the numbers for that, gaps would be incredibly easy to find when your foe is likely less then 1000 (or less than a couple hundred in most case) strong, and Hive cities can sustain themselves for long periods of time in many cases.
Well, yes but then we have to assume we're going with suspect fluff justifications for their actions. I mean, with the tools and vehicles available to the Imperium, the IGshould be almost totally redundant. When you can scour a planet to the bedrock from orbit, having to put boots on the ground seems unnecessary. IMO, if we're basically saying 'just because' when we ask ourselves why the IG are fighting ground battles, then the same answer is good enough when we ask ourselves how Marines fight and win those ground battles.
Space Marines are not good at blockades, they simply do not have the numbers for that, gaps would be incredibly easy to find when your foe is likely less then 1000 (or less than a couple hundred in most case) strong, and Hive cities can sustain themselves for long periods of time in many cases.
I'm talking about naval blockades. And Astartes operational fleets are more than capable of that, I reckon. They have the ability to detect, intercept and destroy any inbound supply ships (assuming they have space superiority, even just locally) and they'd only need to actually intercept a tiny fraction of inbound ships. With billions of people compressed into those Hives, already living on the edge, it would only take one or two days before the entire population tore itself apart.
Of course, that all just raises further questions. Why would the Astartes be attacking a Hive World? And who would be supplying that hive world? There's an easier way for the Imperium to stop Hive Worlds from seceding: Simply stop feeding them!
To my mind the Astartes are the first responders of the Imperium. While the IG need a lot of time, dedicated resources and inter-departmental communication to begin to respond to a distress call, the Astartes are all ready to go, loaded in their own ships and not tied down by the ponderous bureaucracy of the Imperium. If they receive a distress call in the morning, they can be en route by lunch time.
And when they get there they are smart enough, and capable enough, to know the best way to disrupt the enemy. They have the tools to fight naval engagements (I think I worked out once that the Astartes navy is roughly the same size as the entire Imperial navy, from some BFG sources...) and perform their famous lightning strikes on the ground, eliminating vital enemy emplacements and convoys, or retrieving sacred artifacts or people of interest, and generally making themselves a thorn in the enemies side until the IG can get there.
A lance weapon fired at a planet from the system edge will suffer beam dispersion *billions* of miles before it gets anywhere near its target. This is why orbital bombardment has to be done from a relatively low orbit, the range on the ship-borne weapons isn't *that* great.
Tens of thousands of kilometers? Sure. Across a solar system? Hah, not even close.
Also, space is really big. A Space Marine fleet might be a few dozen ships in size, maybe even scores, but that can't possibly cover every potential Warp translation point in-system and, depending, can't always outgun every in-bound supply ship... especially once the situation drags on and word spreads, a starving world is a *ripe* opportunity for war profiteering on behalf of a Rogue Trader dynasty, and those mugs are crazy enough to slip an Astartes blockade in order to bring in food and supplies.
That's how things fly in the Imperium, though. Things happen and it may be months or years before even a nearby system hears about something going on. As most people in the Imperium never, ever leave the planet of their birth, and the few Rogue Traders and Chartist Captains making the semi-regular stops at a given world are probably showing up once every couple of decades, a change in management is not going to really set off any alarms to them, unless it's the sort of change that comes with a new flag with eight pointy bits on it.
Vaktathi wrote:
And yet the defenses of Vraks, a relatively minor outpost compared with many worlds, were extensive enough that no Space Marine Chapter would take on the job until long after the Guard landed and even then engaged largely away from the front lines and the well protected (in terms of AA and AO capability) Citadel itself.
Vraks was bizarre for any number of reasons. A Vindicaire getting stopped by a force field? Don't they have specialized ammo for that purpose? An oh-so-important Munitorum world.. that has no orbital defenses whatsoever? No space stations, battle stathions, system defense ships, or anything like that? No fighters? No naval presence at all? Hauling regiments from halfway across the galaxy (and supplying them that way) rather than raising regiments from the surrounding sectors/subsectors and sending them in to crush the assault? And on and on and on....
Vraks was basically contrived as 'We want WW1 on the ground and everything else including logic can take a flying leap' and that's all there is too it. It's better ot just enjoy it as a game and not think too hard about it making sense.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Psienesis wrote:A lance weapon fired at a planet from the system edge will suffer beam dispersion *billions* of miles before it gets anywhere near its target. This is why orbital bombardment has to be done from a relatively low orbit, the range on the ship-borne weapons isn't *that* great.
Use a projectile.
Tens of thousands of kilometers? Sure. Across a solar system? Hah, not even close.
Small nitpick . "low orbit' is generally out to a few thousand kilometres as we define it. Tens of thousands is closer to geostationary.
Also, space is really big. A Space Marine fleet might be a few dozen ships in size, maybe even scores, but that can't possibly cover every potential Warp translation point in-system and, depending, can't always outgun every in-bound supply ship... especially once the situation drags on and word spreads, a starving world is a *ripe* opportunity for war profiteering on behalf of a Rogue Trader dynasty, and those mugs are crazy enough to slip an Astartes blockade in order to bring in food and supplies.
How many warp translation points does a system usually have? The only things I can think of to hint at that would be Battlefleet Gothic's maps and they tend to show a system usually only having a couple routes, tops.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Kaldor wrote:To my mind the Astartes are the first responders of the Imperium. While the IG need a lot of time, dedicated resources and inter-departmental communication to begin to respond to a distress call, the Astartes are all ready to go, loaded in their own ships and not tied down by the ponderous bureaucracy of the Imperium. If they receive a distress call in the morning, they can be en route by lunch time.
The old 2nd edition IG codex called the Navy and the Space Marines the fast-response forces of the Imperium. Both forces, however, have the problem that they're hampered by needing to cover large volumes of space as part of their responsibility, so they can't be everywhere at once even with their greater mobility/faster response time.
There's also the fact fighting a defensive war is different than launching a Crusade. When we tend to think of 'large and ponderous' we usually think of the IG massing to launch an attack (eg a Crusade.) which needs all the forces rendezvousing at a certain place, organizing, politicking, etc. and all that stuff that slows it up. If they're responding to the attack of a planet to defend it, each world is responsible for raising its forces and dispatching them. It's rather haphazard and lacks coordination, but the response time is quicker than when you're preparing to make an assault.
Kaldor wrote:
Well, yes but then we have to assume we're going with suspect fluff justifications for their actions. I mean, with the tools and vehicles available to the Imperium, the IGshould be almost totally redundant. When you can scour a planet to the bedrock from orbit, having to put boots on the ground seems unnecessary.
Unless you want it for yourself and as something faintly resembling a useful planet.
IMO, if we're basically saying 'just because' when we ask ourselves why the IG are fighting ground battles, then the same answer is good enough when we ask ourselves how Marines fight and win those ground battles.
True enough
I'm talking about naval blockades. And Astartes operational fleets are more than capable of that, I reckon.
As a full Chapter? Perhaps, if the world has no naval assets of its own and its anti-orbital defences are relatively weak and they lack large numbers of vessels, but even then, that's devoting the full might of an Astartes chapter's naval strength to something as mundane as...blockade duty, about the least useful purpose for an Astartes chapter I would think.
And as the individual Strike forces they typically operate as? Not really. A strike cruiser with, at best, 100 marines, isn't going to blockade a world.
They have the ability to detect, intercept and destroy any inbound supply ships (assuming they have space superiority, even just locally)
Yes, but not from everywhere. A single ship can only cover so much space, and engage so many targets, and as much 40k fluff has shown there are all sorts of ways to evade detection. Even a full astartes fleet of a couple dozen vessels with half a dozen to a dozen capital ships may have trouble effectively covering the entire globular sky.
and they'd only need to actually intercept a tiny fraction of inbound ships. With billions of people compressed into those Hives, already living on the edge, it would only take one or two days before the entire population tore itself apart.
Unless they see those lost as acceptable casualties (or that the supply interference is even noticed), if they even hear about their loss at all. This is the 40k universe, where life is cheap and information typically tightly controlled and poorly disseminated.
Of course, that all just raises further questions. Why would the Astartes be attacking a Hive World? And who would be supplying that hive world? There's an easier way for the Imperium to stop Hive Worlds from seceding: Simply stop feeding them!
All sorts of reasons, rebellion, mutation taint, the governor scuffed the Chapter Master's boots at a fancy dinner party, the reasons are endless
Many Hive Worlds are self sufficient, disgustingly and depressingly so for most of the population, but capable of it, not all are dependent on outside worlds for food, many may have agricultural areas elsewhere on the planet.
To my mind the Astartes are the first responders of the Imperium. While the IG need a lot of time, dedicated resources and inter-departmental communication to begin to respond to a distress call, the Astartes are all ready to go, loaded in their own ships and not tied down by the ponderous bureaucracy of the Imperium. If they receive a distress call in the morning, they can be en route by lunch time.
Yes, and that's fine, but often they are portrayed doing what the IG should really be doing (engaging foes in pitched battles, fighting wars of attrition, etc).
Also, responding to distress signals/calls for aid/etc is also entirely up to them, they can and do ignore calls for aid if they feel it beneath them, unnecessary, not important, uninteresting, etc. They don't have to justify non-interference. No Astartes would respond to the Siege on Vraks for instance for years until battle had already been joined and the blood of millions already spilled.
And, on a galaxy wide setting, with merely 1000 chapters, there simply aren't enough to go around, most wars never see a single Space Marine boot even if needed because they're simply too rare. When you have a million worlds (at least) and warfare is present on almost every front and within the Imperium's own borders, it's nigh impossible for the Space Marines to effectively be everywhere they'd need to be, and given how long it takes to make replacements, whenever they take casualties they tend to be functionally permanent for the duration of a battle/war, and when you're only 1000 strong, even if taking casualties at a rate only 1/100th of other forces, you're likely going to be ground to nothing in days or weeks or at best months in any sort of major engagement the way the 40k universe would see it.
And when they get there they are smart enough, and capable enough, to know the best way to disrupt the enemy.
This is a bit of a bugbear of mine that Space Marines somehow now the best way to defeat everything all the time and are somehow more intelligent than their foes, neither of which is necessarily true (remember, nothing about the Space Marine genetic enhancements increases intelligence or anything like that).
They have the tools to fight naval engagements (I think I worked out once that the Astartes navy is roughly the same size as the entire Imperial navy, from some BFG sources...)
The IN is much, much larger if I'm remembering correctly. Astartes fleets at best may be similar in size to a sector battlegroup, but there are millions of sectors in the Imperium while there are only 1000 marine chapters. Also, SM ships are designed for boarding and planetary assault missions, their fleets actually often are poorly equipped to fight other navies, by design after the Horus Heresy, hence the critical lack of Lances, Nova Cannons, and the like amongst their vessels. In naval combat they work best when ambushing isolated opponents at (what is for space battles at least) close range and boarding their opponents with their superhuman troops. In a slugfest an IN cruiser has more/bigger guns generally and is larger/better armored vessel.
A particularly well of chapter like the Ultramarines may have half a dozen battle barges, a dozen Strike Cruisers, and 2-4 dozen escort class vessels, most will have 1 or 2 battle barges, 3-6 Strike Cruisers, and maybe a dozen escorts, while an Imperial Navy sector fleet will generally have roughly 75 ships of all classes from Battleships, to Grand Cruisers, to Cruisers and Escorts.
and perform their famous lightning strikes on the ground, eliminating vital enemy emplacements and convoys, or retrieving sacred artifacts or people of interest, and generally making themselves a thorn in the enemies side until the IG can get there.
Yes, and that's exactly what they should be doing and are great at, but that in and of itself won't win wars waged by dedicated and capable opponents. It's just that GW likes to show them winning wars doing just that, or actively fighting opponents in pitched battles
Vaktathi wrote:Unless you want it for yourself and as something faintly resembling a useful planet.
My point is, returning the Japanese example, that if you CAN scour a planet to the bedrock, even if it means a net loss for you, the enemy will generally comply with your demands. Not always, but often.
And as the individual Strike forces they typically operate as? Not really. A strike cruiser with, at best, 100 marines, isn't going to blockade a world... Even a full astartes fleet of a couple dozen vessels with half a dozen to a dozen capital ships may have trouble effectively covering the entire globular sky.
I guess it depends on your information. I seem to remember in one of the HH novels a fleet travelling from an out-of-system warp-translation point to their in-system rendezvous, and the trip taking only a few hours/days.
With those sorts of speeds, you don't need to physically cover the entire area. And even stopping five or ten percent of incoming supplies would be enough to cause billions of people inside the hives to arm themselves with makeshift weapons and march on the ruling elite, tearing them limb from limb and ransacking their estates for food.
Many Hive Worlds are self sufficient, disgustingly and depressingly so for most of the population, but capable of it, not all are dependent on outside worlds for food, many may have agricultural areas elsewhere on the planet.
Hmm, I've never heard that. Most of the background I've read indicates that hive worlds rely heavily on massive shipments of food and water.
This is a bit of a bugbear of mine that Space Marines somehow now the best way to defeat everything all the time and are somehow more intelligent than their foes, neither of which is necessarily true (remember, nothing about the Space Marine genetic enhancements increases intelligence or anything like that).
I put it down to experience. Marine Chapters have much longer and more varied service records than the IG, and the individual warriors are often exponentially older and more experienced also.
The IN is much, much larger if I'm remembering correctly. Astartes fleets at best may be similar in size to a sector battlegroup, but there are millions of sectors in the Imperium while there are only 1000 marine chapters. Also, SM ships are designed for boarding and planetary assault missions, their fleets actually often are poorly equipped to fight other navies, by design after the Horus Heresy, hence the critical lack of Lances, Nova Cannons, and the like amongst their vessels. In naval combat they work best when ambushing isolated opponents at (what is for space battles at least) close range and boarding their opponents with their superhuman troops. In a slugfest an IN cruiser has more/bigger guns generally and is larger/better armored vessel.
Mmm, you're right, I had a look at an older thread discussing the subject. Best figures I could come up with give the Imperial Navy a total strength of ~70,000 ships (including escorts) and the Astartes ~12,000, making the Astartes fleet about ~20% of the entire Imperial naval assets.
Connor MacLeod wrote:The old 2nd edition IG codex called the Navy and the Space Marines the fast-response forces of the Imperium. Both forces, however, have the problem that they're hampered by needing to cover large volumes of space as part of their responsibility, so they can't be everywhere at once even with their greater mobility/faster response time.
Actually, no, in the 2E Codex it wasn't a matter of coverage, but the Space Marines really not being able to deal with "real" wars:
"Often a conflict will be simply too large, the enemy too powerful, too numerous, or too well entrenched for local forces, ships, or Space Marines to defeat. In such a case mobility counts for very little. In conflicts such as this, the really huge invasions, the wars that spread across whole star systems and decades of warp space, only the grinding steamroller of the Imperial Guard can hope to crush the foe. The ultimate fighting machine, its task is to hold a front line that stretches across the stars, to wage war for decades or centuries if need be, to act as the bastion of the Imperium against the massed hordes arrayed for mankind."
I feel that this has been downplayed in the more recent fluff to make the Astartes even more "cool" by taking away a critical (balancing) weakness, and it's sad, because it was unnecessary and unfair towards the IG. Personally, I'm keeping it for my interpretation of the setting, because frankly, it just makes sense, and Marines were already "awesome enough" for me before they pushed the Guard out of this rather prestigious role. If nowadays the only thing keeping Marines out of those huge conflicts is their inability to "be everywhere at once", it relegates the Guard to some sort of auxiliary force whose only job it is to hold the line until the Almighty Astartes can ride in to the rescue (which is how a lot of battles are described to occur in the past years). Meh.
Kaldor wrote:Best figures I could come up with give the Imperial Navy a total strength of ~70,000 ships (including escorts) and the Astartes ~12,000, making the Astartes fleet about ~20% of the entire Imperial naval assets.
Personally, I'd expect the Navy to be a bit bigger. There are lots of assumptions that led you to this number; I think the amount of Imperial sectors is the biggest question mark in the equation, for if we'd have that, we would know the total fleet size (BFG mentions a sector fleet usually being 50-75 ships).
I'm not sure it makes any sense even trying to calculate the number; there's just too many variables: segmentae do not have either a fixed size nor a fixed number of sectors, sectors have not a fixed size either and may often have "free space" between them, and even then the fleet size will vary on a sector's size and importance or level of unrest/hostilities. It's GW's usual way of saying: "lol, try to calculate that you nutjobs", as every so often leaving quite a bit of leeway for people to make up their own ideas, befitting the company's general stance on consistency and canonicity.
Kaldor wrote:I don't read a whole lot of BL stuff, so I'll have to take your word for it
BL stuff can deviate significantly from GW stuff, anyways.
The sections in the new BGB refer to how many ships were involved in the 13th Black Crusade, as well as the Armageddon. Looking at that can probably help to extrapolate how many the IN may actually be made up of.
As for Astartes involved in battles on a larger scale, I really enjoyed Graham Macneills portrayal in Nightbringer and his follow up novel regarding the Tau (can't remember it's name off the top of my head) on Pavonis I believe it was.
In both of those the Ultramarine Company was invovevd in lightning raids, or leading spearheads into vital areas. They weren't involved in trench warfare, defending supply lines, etc...
Their capabilities in space combat were highlighted as well when a SM Strike Cruiser captained by the Ultramarine Lord of the Fleet barely defeated a single Dark Eldar light cruiser. Space Marines are normally going to operate in such a fashion. A single strike cruiser, possibly 3-4 escorts. Battle Barges and multiple Strike Cruisers are going to be for the extreme engagements. Even when it came to defending a world against a Splinter Hive Fleet the chapter only dispatched a single Strike Cruiser. Those few ships are not going to sufficiently blockade an entire system. They can do a good job of locking up the orbitals over large population centers (which is probably their primary targets), but they won't bother with trying to lock down an entire system.
Most of the time though they want the planet intact. The hives are where stuff is made and if you destroy them it will take generations to make a new one.
Yes it's a broad statement that there will of course be numerous exceptions to, but *generally* the 
