Not me, of course, I wouldn't cheat(honest). Let me explain. I played in a local (friendly) tournament recently, where a player won all his matches and came 1st(with an army I'd heard was very out of date and hard to win with). Thing is, in the game I played against him, he outright cheated, over and over. I wasn't familiar with the army he played with, so wasn't sure if his army was legal or not(I'm pretty sure now it wasn't), I showed him a copy of my army list(which he kept), but I didn't get to see his(I don't think he had one), so couldn't check at the time. He was very quick to anger when I did anything he didn't like, I think he was trying to bully me into not using certain rules. And at least four times he outright cheated to gain an advantage(I'm not talking little mistakes, but blatant cheats). Trouble is, because he won a lot, the other gamers just assumed he knew the game better than them, and give him the benefit of the doubt...

its not ok to cheat, no.

but if you let him get away with it, then you dont deserve to win :/

Yea, i personally dont play anyone without a hard list

Dragonzord wrote:its not ok to cheat, no.

but if you let him get away with it, then you dont deserve to win :/

I didn't want to make a scene(which round here is viewed as even worse)...

It is never alright to cheat. It seems to sound like they allow him to do it because he wins, which could be due to cheating to begin with.

ted1138 wrote:

Dragonzord wrote:its not ok to cheat, no.

but if you let him get away with it, then you dont deserve to win :/

I didn't want to make a scene(which round here is viewed as even worse)...

Is there another FLGS, if so go there, if they would rather have unfair gaming over a hair of drama then they obviously don't need your support.

ted1138 wrote:

Dragonzord wrote:its not ok to cheat, no.

but if you let him get away with it, then you dont deserve to win :/

I didn't want to make a scene(which round here is viewed as even worse)...

eh, all it takes is a simple 'is that in the rules? Show me'

i dont see that causing a scene, just a simple inquiry. If he throws a hissy fit at that then i'd just talk to the organisers to check on his rules.

Use the wording

"ah thats pretty cool, can I see the rules on that, I want to try it myself one day"

Dragonzord wrote:

ted1138 wrote:

Dragonzord wrote:its not ok to cheat, no.

but if you let him get away with it, then you dont deserve to win :/

I didn't want to make a scene(which round here is viewed as even worse)...

eh, all it takes is a simple 'is that in the rules? Show me'

i dont see that causing a scene, just a simple inquiry. If he throws a hissy fit at that then i'd just talk to the organisers to check on his rules.

I'm gonna have a word with the store owner(who was running things) about this guy(who I think isn't a regular, he just came for the comp.). As for a scene, he shouted I was wrong when I asked him to move his models into base contact with my assaulting unit("Defenders React"), and the store owner was siding with him, until I showed them both the rule in the BRB, so I decided to bite my tongue for the rest of the game...

I hate it when people are like this. Getting angry and irritated over the game just saps the fun out of it. I can understand a disagreement might escalate, but to immediately jump to yelling? Gotta take the good with the bad, I guess.

If it's a tournament and you're getting bad vibes, tell him he needs to back up his claims - including that his army list is legal by providing you with said list since you showed him this courtesy, and don't forget the codex!

If he's being abusive "shut up and play your army, I'll play mine".

I know, this doesn't always work and can easily backfire, but simply sitting back and taking it is not a good thing to do. If you're not prepared to take a verbal confrontation, simply packing up your army could be the way to go and make sure the TO knows you packed up because it was impossible to get a good game out of the opponent and that you felt you were getting cheated all the time. (But make sure you've forfeited before calling "cheat" to the TO since this will make your claim more valid when you're not trying to win by deus ex machina so to speak)

WHY WOULD YOU EVEN ASK THIS QUESTION?

Cheating is always to be highlighted, at all times at all levels. Integrity is a big part of this game.

When you knowingly allow someone to cheat, then Morally you are culpable as well. Morale Courage is the ability to step up and say "NO" regardless of the situation, it's not easy (nothing in life that is important is ever easy) but to shrug and let it go is moral cowardice and this attitude allows cheaters and the dishonest to flourish.

This applies equally to the Law, when you knowingly see or allow someone to commit a crime and you fail to report it you are culpable (to a degree) as well.

Morale Courage is what keeps society straight, the man who stands up and rights a wrong, regardless of fear is a good man. I was never this way at 21 Years old, but after being the military for a long time, I have learned to be Morally fearless in bringing people to account. It increases your standing, the way you hold your self and your self esteem. Do not just be a good man, prove it to the world. Stand up for integrity, honesty and believe me people will view you with the utmost respect.

mwnciboo wrote:WHY WOULD YOU EVEN ASK THIS QUESTION?

Cheating is always to be highlighted, at all times at all levels. Integrity is a big part of this game.

When you knowingly allow someone to cheat, then Morally you are culpable as well. Morale Courage is the ability to step up and say "NO" regardless of the situation, it's not easy (nothing in life that is important is ever easy) but to shrug and let it go is moral cowardice and this attitude allows cheaters and the dishonest to flourish.

This applies equally to the Law, when you knowingly see or allow someone to commit a crime and you fail to report it you are culpable (to a degree) as well.

Morale Courage is what keeps society straight, the man who stands up and rights a wrong, regardless of fear is a good man. I was never this way at 21 Years old, but after being the military for a long time, I have learned to be Morally fearless in bringing people to account. It increases your standing, the way you hold your self and your self esteem. Do not just be a good man, prove it to the world. Stand up for integrity, honesty and believe me people will view you with the utmost respect.

+1
This is something that many people in the world need to learn. Have an exalt

So how did he bully you into making you not use certain things to your advantage without causing a scene? If he's gona cause a scene be as brazen as he is and cause a scene when ever he is there without a list and 'cheating'. Simply put if he's not playing by the rules, he isn't playing the game. So suck it up and stand up to it even if it causes 'a scene'.

Hate people like that, sulk if things don't go their way, it's just a game, tell others about him.

Cheating's never ok, and if making a scene is considered worse then you're obviously in a strange place. If they're blatantly cheating, do the following:
1) check your rulebook to make sure they're cheating and you're not wrong, for obvious reasons.
2) tell whoever's in charge. At my FLGS if you're caught cheating you're sent outside and not allowed in for the rest of the day.
Simple, see?

wanting to win is part of the game but cheating isnt it winds me up more than anything else.

I doubt I would've been as pleasent with him as you seem to have been.

And no, it is never ok to paint.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I ment cheat.

Freud would have a lot to say about that.

Did you not have parents or something? Of course it's not okay to cheat

I'm not sure how you could possibly come to the conclusion that a bad thing is OK if it works. It's not OK to steal if you get the money, it's not OK to murder someone if they end up dead. It's the action that's bad, why would succeeding change that? What a strange thought.

Small, Far Away wrote:I doubt I would've been as pleasent with him as you seem to have been.

And no, it is never ok to paint.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I ment cheat.

Freud would have a lot to say about that.

Tell me about your mother...

Here's your answer to this question: Is it OK to murder if you get away with it?

ted1138 wrote:I didn't want to make a scene(which round here is viewed as even worse)...

Is it really though? A lot of (but certainly not all) gamers are quite shy and introverted, and will back away from a confrontation. This isn't tacit approval for backing down, nor is it a quiet disapproval of anyone creating a confrontation. It just means most gamers won't get into one.

If you think someone is cheating, ask them politely and with a friendly attitude to show you the rules.

"Oh, really? I haven't seen that before! Can you show me the rule? "

And if they don't like something you're doing, you should (with the same friendly and polite attitude) show them the rule.

"I know, it's a pretty powerful rule if you use it in the right circumstances. Here, take a look "

As my teacher would say before exams " its only cheating if I catch you".

Kaldor wrote:
"I know, it's a pretty powerful rule if you use it in the right circumstances. Here, take a look "

"also, it's in crayon. Weird, huh? I know, right? GW. Need I say more?"

The only time it is fine to cheat in tabletop wargaming is when it is Bloodbowl - that's because the rules specifically say that cheating is alright so long as you don't get caught!

If you win through cheating then your 'victory' is false, undeserved and frankly worthless. When you step up to play a game of 40k with someone then you are agreeing, unless through discussion you both determine otherwise, to play by the set of rules in the BRB, and to play the game in a fair & friendly manner. Under tournament conditions that also means that you allow your opponent to see the list you have drawn up from the Codex so that they can see you haven't made any mistakes & gives them an idea of what they face.

Frankly I'm surprised he was allowed to even field his army without a legitimate list written down on paper - we always take three copies of our lists to tournaments. One for us, one for the officials & one to hand over to our opponents each game. If anyone does that again get them to write down a list there & then on a piece of paper. If they haven't got the Codex with them see if anyone else is playing the same army & politely ask if you can borrow their Codex so that your opponent can write down their list. If they cheat, blatantly, call them out on it. If they persist point it out to the officials with the rulebook to back you up.

Never trust that someone might 'know it all' because people are only human & will make mistakes. One of our chaps in our gaming group has an incredible memory for rules, stats & so on yet he always has the Codex & rulebook to hand to back up his memory in case he has remembered whatever it is incorrectly. So, basically, always refer to the BRB or the Codex for anything you're unsure of - don't be worried if it might make it look as though you don't know the rules, it is better to check & be sure than just let it go.

What's with some of the negative here? Read my op, and not just the title of the thread please(and yes, my parents did teach me not to cheat, and no, I'm not stupid).


@JbR of the Endless Spire, I'll give you an example. At the start of his turn two, I said I was using my Kryptek's Staff of Light to make it Night Fighting. To which he shouted I couldn't as I'm meant to say so before his turn starts, ie, before I finished my turn 1, and before saying"it's your turn 2"(he'd already insisted at the beginning of the game that solar pulses should only work in Dawn of War deployment).

To clarify a little. Half the stuff he did that was cheating, I didn't know for sure was cheating(like telling me his drop pods can't deviate off the table, or that he could bring them on 1st turn, or that he could choose to roll for them or not, as he was playing a non "Codex" chapter), and the other stuff he could have just claimed was an honest mistake(like moving his land raider, firing both TL Lascannons, then using Machine spirit to fire the TL H.Bolters, or running a squad after moving his assault moves). Then there was the always positioning the blast templates over the target before rolling for scatter, just to make sure he gets the most hits if a "Hit" comes up, then claiming a model over to the side(who would have been the only one hit) was the actual target when it does deviate, thus not moving away from them, but right into the middle(there's no way of proving he was lying).

Report him to your FLC (Friendly Local Commissariat).

Sit back.

Enjoy summary execution.

Seriously though, call him out on it. Who cares if it causes a scene?

The worst that can happen (non-violence wise) is that you get kicked out of the tournament and/or store. Not that big of a deal, cause they were cheating anyways, right?

Nocturn wrote:Report him to your FLC (Friendly Local Commissariat).

Sit back.

Enjoy summary execution.

Seriously though, call him out on it. Who cares if it causes a scene?

The worst that can happen (non-violence wise) is that you get kicked out of the tournament and/or store. Not that big of a deal, cause they were cheating anyways, right?

That's easy to say when there's plenty of other places to go to play, but if I make things so awkward where I'm at that I don't want to play there anymore, then that's it over for me as far as wargaming is concerned.
I think from now on if I want to play in a tournament, I'll just save up and go over to a Throne of Skulls weekend, and only play in local games against those who, like me, play for fun.

ted1138 wrote:he'd already insisted at the beginning of the game that solar pulses should only work in Dawn of War deployment.

Now, I don't know masses about 'crons, but either this is cheating or my entire FLGS has been cheating every game. I don't doubt the rest of what you say either. What to do, is go down to your FLGS right now, say what happened, and if they're fair he won't be allowed to play anyone ever again without very strict supervision.

Aye, this guy is only getting away with it because folks aren't telling him he's wrong.

I assume this is a local tournie, somewhere like Warhammer World and he'd crash and burn.

Next time put specific examples of accused cheating in your first post. Your OP really got under my skin with all those damning accusations and NO evidence.

Like has been said, what kind of tournament doesn't require a written army list?

"All that is needed for evil to triumph, is for good men to sit back and do nothing."

It seems to me that the Power, or WAAC, players, who are very confident and win all the time, get treated like they're the experts, and no one questions how they're winning. In the tournament it was the Tyranids and Black Templar armies that were crushing everything in sight(from Space Wolves to Vet. Imp. Guard armies, no one stood a chance)...


Automatically Appended Next Post:

SickSix wrote:Next time put specific examples of accused cheating in your first post. Your OP really got under my skin with all those damning accusations and NO evidence.

Like has been said, what kind of tournament doesn't require a written army list?

"All that is needed for evil to triumph, is for good men to sit back and do nothing."

Even if I gave you a list of all things he did to cheat in the op, you'd still have no evidence, and why would it "really got under my skin"? I'm not accusing you of anything...

Stand your ground. From my viewpoint I'd rather not play than endure a cheat. Without rules, your models are just toys. I can play with my toys by myself. You never know, your game store might be grateful for you keeping a cheat from their store.

One we had in my area stopped coming after I consistantly called him on his cheating, then still beat him in spite of it. He returned after I stopped playing. He mysteriously disappeared again after my first tournament back. I never had to say anything, and he didn't try anything. Against me. His other two opponants groused about it, but not to the TO or owner.

Some people legitimately don't understand the rules, and I buy that. Hell, during our "Fairwell to 5th" tournament, I had to explain to the TO and my opponant how buildings worked: They STILL didn't understand them. I even had opponants insisting that hills were area terrain, and since they were area terrain, standing atop them gave you a 4+ save. (5e had well defined terrain types and varying cover values, but no one ever paid attention to that, but that's another rant.)

Man, if he tried that around here he'd go down faster then a Runt'herd fighting a Dreadknight.

Of course its important to make sure it isn't an honest mistake. Its still early in 6th so rule mixups are to be expected.

Grey Templar wrote:Man, if he tried that around here he'd go down faster then a Runt'herd fighting a Dreadknight.

Of course its important to make sure it isn't an honest mistake. Its still early in 6th so rule mixups are to be expected.

Yeah, but we were playing 5th, so there shouldn't have been that much confusion. Mistakes do happen, and I'm the first one to give people the benefit of the doubt(it's easier to let something go in the heat of battle, and then look it up later, than argue it out at the table)...

This is the reason I dont play tournaments, even the "friendly" ones. Some players explode in anger because of the preasure of losing.

Something similar happened in the FLGS near my area, when the final game, one of the players got stressed in a "friendly" game.

ted1138 wrote:Automatically Appended Next Post:

SickSix wrote:Next time put specific examples of accused cheating in your first post. Your OP really got under my skin with all those damning accusations and NO evidence.

Like has been said, what kind of tournament doesn't require a written army list?

"All that is needed for evil to triumph, is for good men to sit back and do nothing."

Even if I gave you a list of all things he did to cheat in the op, you'd still have no evidence, and why would it "really got under my skin"? I'm not accusing you of anything...

I think you should give us a list of things that you believe he's cheating, not asking for "evidence", this isn't CSI. But it's also that we can actually see what he has done that you've considered cheating.

While showing army list before the game is good sport, if you read the 6th ed rulebook, it does say "You don't have to show your army list if you don't want to", so that isn't exactly cheating, considering that your TO is fine with it as well, then he wasn't cheating RAW nor houserule.

But on topic, is cheating ok? I'll repeat what others have posted, no, it never is, especially when it's in expense on other's enjoyment.

DemetriDominov wrote:Here's your answer to this question: Is it OK to murder if you get away with it?

Only if you roll double six's on the "morality chart"

Still this is such a weird question, it is never right to cheat (outside of single player games, because that can be fun) but when you're playing with others or it influences others then it becomes a big problem. Cheating not ruins the game for yourself but everyone else who plays with you too along with stealing the sense of accomplishment if you win.

Challange him to a game, write down his moves and his models. If he wins, buy the codex of his army and look through it. If you see anything he did that he can't do, Challange him to a rematch, bring his army's codex, and whenever he slips up, make a very loud and annoying comment about it. That should really tick him off.

Baronyu wrote:

ted1138 wrote:Automatically Appended Next Post:

SickSix wrote:Next time put specific examples of accused cheating in your first post. Your OP really got under my skin with all those damning accusations and NO evidence.

Like has been said, what kind of tournament doesn't require a written army list?

"All that is needed for evil to triumph, is for good men to sit back and do nothing."

Even if I gave you a list of all things he did to cheat in the op, you'd still have no evidence, and why would it "really got under my skin"? I'm not accusing you of anything...

I think you should give us a list of things that you believe he's cheating, not asking for "evidence", this isn't CSI. But it's also that we can actually see what he has done that you've considered cheating.

While showing army list before the game is good sport, if you read the 6th ed rulebook, it does say "You don't have to show your army list if you don't want to", so that isn't exactly cheating, considering that your TO is fine with it as well, then he wasn't cheating RAW nor houserule.

But on topic, is cheating ok? I'll repeat what others have posted, no, it never is, especially when it's in expense on other's enjoyment.

I'm not looking for approval for cheating, I'm just trying to open up a discussion on how some players get away with cheating because they win(sorry, but I honestly didn't think people would be this pedantic over the title ). As for not showing your list to your opponent, that's fine(I didn't say that was cheating), but at least prove you have one(I wasn't asked to provide one to the person running this tournament, so can't be certain if he even had one in the first place)...

ted1138 wrote:What's with some of the negative here? Read my op, and not just the title of the thread please(and yes, my parents did teach me not to cheat, and no, I'm not stupid).


@JbR of the Endless Spire, I'll give you an example. At the start of his turn two, I said I was using my Kryptek's Staff of Light to make it Night Fighting. To which he shouted I couldn't as I'm meant to say so before his turn starts, ie, before I finished my turn 1, and before saying"it's your turn 2"(he'd already insisted at the beginning of the game that solar pulses should only work in Dawn of War deployment).

To clarify a little. Half the stuff he did that was cheating, I didn't know for sure was cheating(like telling me his drop pods can't deviate off the table, or that he could bring them on 1st turn, or that he could choose to roll for them or not, as he was playing a non "Codex" chapter), and the other stuff he could have just claimed was an honest mistake(like moving his land raider, firing both TL Lascannons, then using Machine spirit to fire the TL H.Bolters, or running a squad after moving his assault moves). Then there was the always positioning the blast templates over the target before rolling for scatter, just to make sure he gets the most hits if a "Hit" comes up, then claiming a model over to the side(who would have been the only one hit) was the actual target when it does deviate, thus not moving away from them, but right into the middle(there's no way of proving he was lying).

Ok, so it's a Space Marine army. Here's the thing about Space Marines, they are all the same except for one special rule. Learn one Space Marine army and you don't really need the others explained to you.

Drop Pods do come in on turn one - exactly half (fraction rounded down, iirc) will do this the other half are normal reserves.
Drop Pods deviating off table would be a mishap. Onto terrain or other models is what their guidance system protects them from.
There is no such thing as a non-Codex chapter. There's only Marines Of Chapter X Cunningly Disguising Themselves In Other Colours Than They Really Are. Next time, try rubbing the models with your thumb to see what colour they are when the fresh paint comes off. Or ask him to provide you with the Codex he's using - either works.
He's actually allowed to place markers before scattering them, but he's not allowed to reposition it after placing it. This is why you pre-place the markers, by the way, since a marker's hole isn't necessarily placed square centre of the target model, either.

It seems he was not at all in the know about the Necrons, though, so you just need to get in the game of paying back in kind. If he's shouting about stuff you know is wrong, just start questioning EVERYTHING you don't want him to do (even the stuff you know he's allowed to do) until he starts providing proof he can. You don't have to be a donkey about the questioning, you can be polite, but simply letting someone roll right over you won't do you any good nor the next person he plays. I mean, even such a blatantly insipid thing as "are you sure those are bolters and not shotguns? Let's check your codex" whenever he wants to shoot over 12" will eventually drive the message home. "I thought Blood Angels could only take Shotguns. You mean you don't have your codex with you. No, I'm very certain. Only shotguns.". "Yeah, really Gauss Rifles are rending. Nah, codex is in my bag, I thought since you don't have your codex I'd let it be down there". "Land Raiders don't have Machine Spirit, only the special variants do."

"There is no such thing as a non-Codex chapter"

Really? What about Grey Knights, Blood Angels, Space Wolves and Black Templars?


PS, this guy was playing BTs(if you haven't already guessed), and I checked after the tournament, and they can't use drop pods 1st turn, and they can't field Ironclad Dreadnoughts either(as far as I can tell)...

ted1138 wrote:
I'm not looking for approval for cheating, I'm just trying to open up a discussion on how some players get away with cheating because they win(sorry, but I honestly didn't think people would be this pedantic over the title ). As for not showing your list to your opponent, that's fine(I didn't say that was cheating), but at least prove you have one(I wasn't asked to provide one to the person running this tournament, so can't be certain if he even had one in the first place)...

I'll be a bit more honest then...

For me, and may be some others, we aren't sure if what you saw was cheating or not. As you've said, you don't know his army well, what if it is his army's rule? From your 1st post, it sounds as if you're calling him out because he was being defensive about showing his rule, not because you are actually sure that he cheated. The same logic could be applied here: You're calling me pedantic for asking for examples of what he did that was considered cheating, I could also say that's enough ground for me to say that he didn't cheat and you only made this up to get some sorta reassurance that you didn't lose because you're a bad general, but that he's a filthy cheater.

For example, let's say you have not a clue about DE, and you play an Eldar army against my DE, I tell you that my HQ allows me to steal initiative on a 4+, that he can re-roll to hit and to wound in combat with his 3+ to wound power weapon, and the other HQ that I've brought get +1A from 2 CCW, then +x A, where x is the difference of the HQ's WS and the highest WS model in the unit assaulted, possibly getting 10 attacks out of 1 model. But when you ask me to show you the rules, I get defensive and start screaming at you for asking, are you gonna get suspicious? Yes. But was I cheating? Nope, the HQ I mentioned were Vect and Lelith, totally legal units. Why would I field the 2 high cost HQ units in one game? I wouldn't, this is an example, but they do have some scary sounding rules.

So if you want reassurance that he's a filthy cheater, then yes, you'd need to provide some examples, if you only want to know if cheating is cool, then you already got your answer. But I mean, surely, there is nothing that could hurt for providing some examples of his cheating shenanigans, right?

No it is not ok. How badly would one have need his toy soldiers to win to cheat at a game?

ted1138 wrote:"There is no such thing as a non-Codex chapter"

Really? What about Grey Knights, Blood Angels, Space Wolves and Black Templars?


PS, this guy was playing BTs(if you haven't already guessed), and I checked after the tournament, and they can't use drop pods 1st turn, and they can't field Ironclad Dreadnoughts either(as far as I can tell)...

I think Blood Angels technically are a codex-adhering chapter, but my point was more that there's no such thing supporting home-brew chapters with mix-matching rules.

Regardless, if he's being silly, dorky, loud, or any other adverb about how you play, don't feel bad for being so right back at him, although generally speaking polite is a good adverb to go for, especially in combination with firm.

I think my general judgement is "sounds like it's your fault for letting him roll all over you". No, that doesn't make his cheating OK, but being the one across the table it's your job to be the first, and possibly the only, line of referee.

Baronyu wrote:

ted1138 wrote:
I'm not looking for approval for cheating, I'm just trying to open up a discussion on how some players get away with cheating because they win(sorry, but I honestly didn't think people would be this pedantic over the title ). As for not showing your list to your opponent, that's fine(I didn't say that was cheating), but at least prove you have one(I wasn't asked to provide one to the person running this tournament, so can't be certain if he even had one in the first place)...

I'll be a bit more honest then...

For me, and may be some others, we aren't sure if what you saw was cheating or not. As you've said, you don't know his army well, what if it is his army's rule? From your 1st post, it sounds as if you're calling him out because he was being defensive about showing his rule, not because you are actually sure that he cheated. The same logic could be applied here: You're calling me pedantic for asking for examples of what he did that was considered cheating, I could also say that's enough ground for me to say that he didn't cheat and you only made this up to get some sorta reassurance that you didn't lose because you're a bad general, but that he's a filthy cheater.

For example, let's say you have not a clue about DE, and you play an Eldar army against my DE, I tell you that my HQ allows me to steal initiative on a 4+, that he can re-roll to hit and to wound in combat with his 3+ to wound power weapon, and the other HQ that I've brought get +1A from 2 CCW, then +x A, where x is the difference of the HQ's WS and the highest WS model in the unit assaulted, possibly getting 10 attacks out of 1 model. But when you ask me to show you the rules, I get defensive and start screaming at you for asking, are you gonna get suspicious? Yes. But was I cheating? Nope, the HQ I mentioned were Vect and Lelith, totally legal units. Why would I field the 2 high cost HQ units in one game? I wouldn't, this is an example, but they do have some scary sounding rules.

So if you want reassurance that he's a filthy cheater, then yes, you'd need to provide some examples, if you only want to know if cheating is cool, then you already got your answer. But I mean, surely, there is nothing that could hurt for providing some examples of his cheating shenanigans, right?

Posted by me, earlier in the thread(bear in mind he was playing Black Templars, and had told me that they didn't follow the same rules as Codex chapters): “To clarify a little. Half the stuff he did that was cheating, I didn't know for sure was cheating(like telling me his drop pods can't deviate off the table, or that he could bring them on 1st turn, or that he could choose to roll for them or not, as he was playing a non "Codex" chapter), and the other stuff he could have just claimed was an honest mistake(like moving his land raider, firing both TL Lascannons, then using Machine spirit to fire the TL H.Bolters, or running a squad after moving his assault moves). Then there was the always positioning the blast templates over the target before rolling for scatter, just to make sure he gets the most hits if a "Hit" comes up, then claiming a model over to the side(who would have been the only one hit) was the actual target when it does deviate, thus not moving away from them, but right into the middle(there's no way of proving he was lying).”


As I've also said, If I can't prove someone is cheating, I'll wait till later and check the books rather than make a scene there and then. As for your Dark Eldar point, I'd have checked later, and found you were right, but as long as you weren't doing things like running troops in the assault phase, rolling dice in secret or some other obvious cheating, I'd have no reason to suspect you of cheating, so wouldn't have.


PS, try reading other peoples posts to see what they are saying, and not just attack every little thing they type just for the sake of it(I haven't accused you of anything, and as far as I can tell, have not written anything offensive here, so why the attitude?)...

No.

Although it's possible he's ignorant of the current rules AND stubbornly unwilling to do the research AND is too unnerving to want to socialize with, generally he's just cheating.

The problem being, it doesn't hurt him to cheat until people take action to punish him for it. Think about how many people using aim-bots in FPS games nowadays. On most servers, they get their fun killing people and ruining everyone elses fun, getting kicked from the server, and just finding a new server to do it at again. It's not much different than trolling, as a troll defines winning as annoying people regardless of the game, a cheater just also wants to win the game at least in the eyes of his opponent. He got everything he wanted out of your match and the tournament, which included pissing his fellow gamers off and stealing their victory. He was praised for it, he won the tournament for it, and forced everyone to bend to his will.

Why did no one stand up to him? Because we doubt ourselves, we differ to others when we are unsure, we assume our peers are correct and we must be wrong. To the point that it would be truly embarrassing to request a clarification on something we don't understand. It is natural, if not intelligent. Which is why people who do this get away with it. It's scary to accuse someone of cheating, because we're so terrified of being wrong. Especially when sometimes we are, 40k is a very complicated game and it's very possible that something you think it cheating is just an aspect of your opponents army. You can't know if he's cheating if you don't know how it works in the first place.

I'm quite timid and suffer from social anxiety, so I'd probably never argue with the guy either. Just let him have his way and finish the game as fast as possible. But I'm a rules lawyer at heart so I'd hope that someone corrects him eventually.

I know in a tournament setting you don't have all day to play the game and debate about the rules, and i've fought against opponents that certainly could have taken advantage of me on the tabletop if they hadn't already. But that doesn't mean they should get away with it, not does it mean you should play against him again. Tell the store owner or tournament organizer, and if he wants to play against you again tell him you'd rather not play against an army you don't understand as it gives him an unfair advantage, and if he'd agree to trade codex's with you for a few minutes to find out what each other can do, you might feel more confident. It's a little bit underhanded to feign ignorance, but onyl a total jerk won't let someone ask a TO for a little help.

You should have called him out as a cheater. politely but deffinitly get a TO in on the match next time you think someone is cheating. Also, you should always get a copy of your opponents list when you play.

Whenever I play in a tournament we are all required to submit one copy of our list for them to verify it is legal and to have another copy on us so that an opponent could look at it if they wished.

If you are in a situation that you KNOW is wrong, yet are not willing to take a stand for what is RIGHT, you are just as bad as the cheater in question.

To the OP, all you did was run into the, "bully gamer". He will protest the loudest, he will intimidate the most, and will throw the gamer's superiority complex out as if they were the original GW rules writers combined. You didn't have the balls to stand-up to him and if he beat anyone after he played you, you are just as responsible for his cheating as his opponents prior to playing you.

ted1138 wrote:Is it ok to cheat, if you win?

LOL. Even the cheaters, deep down, don't feel ok about their "win".


Cheating is bad for two reasons:

1) The person has a low enough opinion of themseves and their own abilities that they feel they need to cheat to have a chance. Basically, they've admitted to themselves they are a pathetic loser. And,

2) A win by cheating is not a real win at all. It's not a real victory. It's like playing a video game all the way through using "god mode" - why would anyone feel a sense of accomplishment doing that?

There an old quote if you aren't cheating you aren't trying.

This is bull winning with honor is the ultimate goal.

ted1138 wrote:What's with some of the negative here? Read my op, and not just the title of the thread please(and yes, my parents did teach me not to cheat, and no, I'm not stupid).
.

because, and i say this with all due respect, we dont know whats worse - someone who cheats, or someone who doesnt have the courage to stand up to them.

Fine. Its only a game. But asking him to show you an army list, or asking him to show you the rules in his codex where it says he can do X is not "causing a scene". its you playing the game as its meant to be played. fairly. its a social contract. if he gets loud and angry and tries to bully you, its on him. Personally that attitude against me would make me even more unwilling to back down. And you can confront him whilst being formal and polite and with perfectly good manners. So, where's the "scene"? or is it that people simply dont want to push the bully in case he has a go at them next?

to be honest ted, i have no sympathy or tolerance for cheaters, but i have only apathy for those who back down from them. to me, thats even worse. just remember, its your game too - you are fully entitled to enjoy it, and to know you and your opponent are "doing it right". bullys arent worth the cowering, and the slinking around the gaming tables, egos and the fear of causing a scene.

the only reason he gets away with it is because people let him get away with it. So basically, man up a bit. you can take him on. and you can take back your game.

I would rather lose than cheat. It's just a game with plastic toy soldiers. It isn't fun if someone is cheating and why would I spend so much time, effort and (*ahem) money on something that isn't fun?

ted1138 wrote:"There is no such thing as a non-Codex chapter"

Really? What about Grey Knights, Blood Angels, Space Wolves and Black Templars?

I have seen the Grey Knights and Blood Angels Codexes, so I know they have them. Haven't seen a Black Templars Codex though. I thought that SM type armies either used the generic Space Marine Codex or they had their own specific ones. I was not aware of any "non-Codex" chapter. (I'm assuming that means a White Dwarf or 2 defining the rules, like Sisters of Battle have).

Just looked on Games Workshop's site. They have a Codex:Black Templars as well, had to search Google to get the link to the GW site entry, but it was there plus a few models for the army.

Isn't it common knowledge not to show your list to an opponent?

Depends on who is hosting the tournament. At official GW ones, for example, you are required to have a written army list on you at all times so your opponent may check it if they wish to.

Deadnight wrote:

ted1138 wrote:What's with some of the negative here? Read my op, and not just the title of the thread please(and yes, my parents did teach me not to cheat, and no, I'm not stupid).
.

because, and i say this with all due respect, we dont know whats worse - someone who cheats, or someone who doesnt have the courage to stand up to them.

Fine. Its only a game. But asking him to show you an army list, or asking him to show you the rules in his codex where it says he can do X is not "causing a scene". its you playing the game as its meant to be played. fairly. its a social contract. if he gets loud and angry and tries to bully you, its on him. Personally that attitude against me would make me even more unwilling to back down. And you can confront him whilst being formal and polite and with perfectly good manners. So, where's the "scene"? or is it that people simply dont want to push the bully in case he has a go at them next?

to be honest ted, i have no sympathy or tolerance for cheaters, but i have only apathy for those who back down from them. to me, thats even worse. just remember, its your game too - you are fully entitled to enjoy it, and to know you and your opponent are "doing it right". bullys arent worth the cowering, and the slinking around the gaming tables, egos and the fear of causing a scene.

the only reason he gets away with it is because people let him get away with it. So basically, man up a bit. you can take him on. and you can take back your game.

So, knowing that the group you're in will treat the person you are playing like they know the rules better than you, and is a better player because they win more games, and will side with them before you, and that you can't at that time prove that they are cheating to the full extent they are, and also knowing how badly it would damage your reputation, you would still choose to make a scene? Then what? Storm out , never to return? I don't intend to let him get away with it. But nor do I intend to have it spoil my ability to spend my hobby time with people I've come to like and respect...






PS, a "non-codex" chapter is one that doesn't follow the "Codex Astartes" to the letter(and is not a chapter that doesn't have it's own book).

ted1138 wrote:What's with some of the negative here? Read my op, and not just the title of the thread please(and yes, my parents did teach me not to cheat, and no, I'm not stupid).

Let me have a look. I won't know all of these but I should know some of them.

@JbR of the Endless Spire, I'll give you an example. At the start of his turn two, I said I was using my Kryptek's Staff of Light to make it Night Fighting. To which he shouted I couldn't as I'm meant to say so before his turn starts, ie, before I finished my turn 1, and before saying"it's your turn 2"(he'd already insisted at the beginning of the game that solar pulses should only work in Dawn of War deployment).

From what I know you state at the start of your turn NOT before your turn. I don't believe there is any restrictions to this on deployment type. That just sounds stupiud.

To clarify a little. Half the stuff he did that was cheating, I didn't know for sure was cheating(like telling me his drop pods can't deviate off the table,

A common misconception but drop pods can deviate off the table and mishap. The rule that stops them from a deep strike mishap is for impassable terrain or enemy/friendly units. Note if they land in dangerous terrain the drop pod takes a dangerous terrain test when doing so. So basically the drop pod will land just before reaching impassable terrain or other units by one inch and will land there instead of landing on top of them. If they completely pass over these things and over to the other side safely without landing on top of them then they will do that. However drop pods can still scatter off the table edge and mishap.

or that he could bring them on 1st turn,

A player can bring on half his drop pods rounded up first turn. So if he has one drop pod, he can bring it on first turn, if he has two drops then it is still one. If he has three drop pods then he bring on two and so on.

or that he could choose to roll for them or not, as he was playing a non "Codex" chapter),

False. The rule states that you MUST DO THIS. There is no option to say "I will reserve them all and roll for them later on in later game turns". Half of the drop pods, rounded up, come on first turn. The rest are held in reserve and are rolled for in later turns. He does however get to choose which ones he wants to come in first turn and what ones he wants to keep in reserve.

and the other stuff he could have just claimed was an honest mistake(like moving his land raider, firing both TL Lascannons, then using Machine spirit to fire the TL H.Bolters,

I believe he can fire one weapon after moving and then another one using power of the machine spirit. He can also fire all defensive weapons at S4 or lower. However heavy bolters are S5, so they shouldn't count.

or running a squad after moving his assault moves).

Yeah, you're not allowed to do that ruleswise. In a friendly game you might allow it if a player forgot to do it, but he has to ask your permission first. I would usually allow it if they ask for it. I'm quite lenient that way but I also expect my opponent to be reasonale as well if I'm then in a subsequent situation for the same thing.

Then there was the always positioning the blast templates over the target before rolling for scatter, just to make sure he gets the most hits if a "Hit" comes up, then claiming a model over to the side(who would have been the only one hit) was the actual target when it does deviate, thus not moving away from them, but right into the middle(there's no way of proving he was lying).

Yeah, that is cheating. You are supposed to declare a target model first for the blast template. Place the template over that targets head and then roll for scatter. He is not allowed to change his mind on what model the blast template is hitting after he rolls for scatter. If he did with with me, he would then be on the way to the hospital so a team of surgeons could remove said blast template from his rectum.


That guy sounds as if he was cheating big time. Next time just refuse to play him and say that you don't play against cheaters. If its a tournie and you really want to play then call him out on his rule breakings and stand up to him. You don't need to be aggressive, you just need to be firm. Just say to him "No, I'm sorry that is not the rule, I know it is not the rule, prove to me otherwise". If he gets aggressive then just say to him "You can get aggressive if you want but that doesn't change the fact that that is not the rule or how it works".

Testify wrote:Did you not have parents or something? Of course it's not okay to cheat

He just played a lot of dark eldar or WHFB Skaven, thats all.
Those things change you..

Mahtamori wrote:Ok, so it's a Space Marine army. Here's the thing about Space Marines, they are all the same except for one special rule. Learn one Space Marine army and you don't really need the others explained to you.

Drop Pods do come in on turn one - exactly half (fraction rounded down, iirc) will do this the other half are normal reserves.

It's rounded up. So if you have one drop pod, then that one drop pod can come in first turn.

Drop Pods deviating off table would be a mishap. Onto terrain or other models is what their guidance system protects them from.

Actually its only impassable terrain they can't land on and are protected from. If they land in normal terrain, it becomes dangerous and they take a dangerous terrain test for the drop pod, but not the models inside. I know this because it was FAQ'ed that if a drop pod suffers an immobilised result from a dangerous terrain test then it becomes a weapon destruyed result instead.

There is no such thing as a non-Codex chapter. There's only Marines Of Chapter X Cunningly Disguising Themselves In Other Colours Than They Really Are. Next time, try rubbing the models with your thumb to see what colour they are when the fresh paint comes off. Or ask him to provide you with the Codex he's using - either works.
He's actually allowed to place markers before scattering them, but he's not allowed to reposition it after placing it. This is why you pre-place the markers, by the way, since a marker's hole isn't necessarily placed square centre of the target model, either.

Well I know the blast template needs to be placed over a model. In 5th ed it did anyway. I believe it was over the models base it had to be. In my previous post I said head, but i think it is actually anywhere on the base.

It seems he was not at all in the know about the Necrons, though, so you just need to get in the game of paying back in kind. If he's shouting about stuff you know is wrong, just start questioning EVERYTHING you don't want him to do (even the stuff you know he's allowed to do) until he starts providing proof he can. You don't have to be a donkey about the questioning, you can be polite, but simply letting someone roll right over you won't do you any good nor the next person he plays. I mean, even such a blatantly insipid thing as "are you sure those are bolters and not shotguns? Let's check your codex" whenever he wants to shoot over 12" will eventually drive the message home. "I thought Blood Angels could only take Shotguns. You mean you don't have your codex with you. No, I'm very certain. Only shotguns.". "Yeah, really Gauss Rifles are rending. Nah, codex is in my bag, I thought since you don't have your codex I'd let it be down there". "Land Raiders don't have Machine Spirit, only the special variants do."

In other words if he is cheating then just cheat against him in kind. I suppose its one way to do it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

ted1138 wrote: PS, this guy was playing BTs(if you haven't already guessed), and I checked after the tournament, and they can't use drop pods 1st turn, and they can't field Ironclad Dreadnoughts either(as far as I can tell)...

They can use drop pods first turn. It was FAQ'ed to change the wording.

http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m2420305a_Black_Templars_6th_Ed_V1.pdf

So, heated anger aside, there are only two ways to handle this situation.

1.) Know your rules. Really know them. Read the rulebook several times, and take lots of notes. Whenever something happens that you know isn't correct (you know because you read the rulebook and then read it again, and took notes), then challenge it. Every time. Look at your notes you took when reading the rulebook several times, and use that to point to the actual rule in the actual rulebook and demand that that rule be used.

Sooner or later (probably sooner), the cheater will ragequit and call you a rules whore and storm off. Hopefully permanently.

2.) cheat yourself. Obviously I don't mean against everybody, but against this person. If you are playing a game in which there are no set rules, then what you can do is limited only to your imagination.

Don't cheat even a little, like saying that your regular space marines have a 2+ save, I mean cheat a lot. Your guardsmen fly and have 10 power weapon attacks apiece. All of your marines deepstrike and have without number, and if they deepstrike within 12" of an enemy unit, that unit is removed from play on a 2+. Seriously, go wild. When your opponent requests to see any documentation on what he's doing, say no.

If he complains, offer to play the game by the actual rules, and revert to option 1.

ted1138 wrote:
So, knowing that the group you're in will treat the person you are playing like they know the rules better than you, and is a better player because they win more games, and will side with them before you, and that you can't at that time prove that they are cheating to the full extent they are, and also knowing how badly it would damage your reputation, you would still choose to make a scene? Then what? Storm out , never to return? I don't intend to let him get away with it. But nor do I intend to have it spoil my ability to spend my hobby time with people I've come to like and respect...
.

firstly, know your own rules, as i do. secondly, know the other guys rules, as i do. i dont give 2 figs what somone else might say. i dont care about group think, egos, cliques, fanboys and hangers on, and toadies. because i'll know the answer myself, and i'll be happy to show him the rules in the rulebook/codex that say either "yes, you can do this," or "no, you cant do this". If he continues having a go - well, while im not backing down, im staying polite, fair, friendly and professional about it all. wheres the scene? Now, as i've said before, asking someone to show you where they can do that is not making a scene. this isnt pistols at dawn, and the losers name shall be forever stricken from history. stop being so shrewish. those guys who blindly take his side? well, the second that you can point out where what you're calling him on is right (and that his is wrong) is the second that he loses that power.

you dont have to let him get away with it, either mate. seriously though, having a bit of backbone brings you a long way, and is in itself a long way from causing a scene. Just because people assume this guy is right does not make it so. and point it out. back up your points. prove your case. done.

Ted you deserved to lose and be cheated on. If you want to sacrifice honor and integrity for comfort, don't complain when you get treated like crap.

ted1138 wrote:

Dragonzord wrote:its not ok to cheat, no.

but if you let him get away with it, then you dont deserve to win :/

I didn't want to make a scene(which round here is viewed as even worse)...

So what you are left with is either accepting the fact the guy is going to cheat; and win. Or "make a scene" (not sure why that would be viewed as worse).
However, for the sake of diplomacy...talk to the other guys who play him. Ask them if they have noticed the same things you have. They may be in the same quandry...getting irritated that the guy is cheating but not wanting to be TFG. Let the store owner/event organizer know ahead of time and that you plan to call him on it next time (so the TO can be ready to make a ruling). If the TFG and the TO happen to be buddy-buddy then you may want to skip that step...no use in tipping your hand early, having the guy play one legal game, then making you look like an @ss.
Next, get a copy of his Codex and study it (or borrow a store copy and sit in a corner at the FLGS reading it). You already have an idea of what units he uses so look at them and see what they can do and not do; what gear they can take. Then look real hard at the new rules (6th ed) to make sure he hasn't found a loophole to exploit or something else like that. Try to recreate his list on AB (if you have it) and check it for validity.
Then the next time your playing the guy, especially in a tourny, if he does a suspect move call him on it. Ask to see the rule in the codex and any FAQs (you having already researched this know the answer). Make him prove his case. If he KNOWS you know how his army works AND your going to call him on it, he has the option to either start playing legal or get all pissy and walk away (giving you the win).
Make sure you call him on it in a calm clear voice. Not screaming, but loud enough that nearby tables can hear. After the 4th time hearing you say "dude, you cant move 12 and also do "X" the other players will know whats up and they will be ready to make the same call when they play him.
Don't forget after the fact to dink him in Sports points and put the comment down on your score sheet that the guy was playing loose and fast with the rules on multiple occasions, then got mad when his "error" was brought to his attention (because he sure as h3ll will dink you also).

Your other options are to accept the fact you will never win again because as time goes on he will get worse and worse. Or find a new store to play in.

Call a judge and ask him.

NEVER trust your opponent in a tourney when there's a good reason not to do so. If he really cheated, he should be banned from the tourney and hopefully longer.

It is better to lose than to be dishonourable.

What's the point in cheating?

If you cheat, you aren't playing the same game as your opponent, so it's completely irrelevant whether you win or not.

SickSix wrote:Ted you deserved to lose and be cheated on. If you want to sacrifice honor and integrity for comfort, don't complain when you get treated like crap.

There's no need to be such a jerk "SickSix". If you've nothing constructive to say here, then why don't you go troll somewhere else...

ted1138 wrote:

SickSix wrote:Ted you deserved to lose and be cheated on. If you want to sacrifice honor and integrity for comfort, don't complain when you get treated like crap.

There's no need to be such a jerk "SickSix". If you've nothing constructive to say here, then why don't you go troll somewhere else...

Woah, careful you don't create a scene!

Not impressed by the folks further victimizing a player asking for advice simply because they dislike confrontation. Personally I have no issue with confrontation what so ever.

Sicksix the mockery can be put aside. It isnt constructive. Not everyone can so easily stand up for themselves especially in a line hobbycraft that is notorious for introverted souls. Get off your highhorse, no one "deserves" to be victimized. Period.

There's your "scene" kaldor.

As far as your issue is concerned ted bring it up with the TO and show clear examples of rules misuse and cheating. You dont need to rant and rave but if you can clearly state your view and point to evidence supporting it no reasonable person will chastise you for wanting a fair game.

ted1138 wrote:Not me, of course, I wouldn't cheat(honest). Let me explain. I played in a local (friendly) tournament recently, where a player won all his matches and came 1st(with an army I'd heard was very out of date and hard to win with). Thing is, in the game I played against him, he outright cheated, over and over. I wasn't familiar with the army he played with, so wasn't sure if his army was legal or not(I'm pretty sure now it wasn't), I showed him a copy of my army list(which he kept), but I didn't get to see his(I don't think he had one), so couldn't check at the time. He was very quick to anger when I did anything he didn't like, I think he was trying to bully me into not using certain rules. And at least four times he outright cheated to gain an advantage(I'm not talking little mistakes, but blatant cheats). Trouble is, because he won a lot, the other gamers just assumed he knew the game better than them, and give him the benefit of the doubt...

Nothing about this sounds "friendly". And you payed to be treated this way?

Why would you waste your time participating in such stupidity with obvious douches?

I actually agree on the victimization, however you have to positively encourage people to stand up for themselves, even if they are introverted. Some introverted characters I have known, are intensely private and somewhat shy, but would stand up for what they believe. It's about encouragement and role models and making people believe in their voice, to say what they believe in.

Positive encouragement is a far cry from what amounts to little more then bullying. There are examples of both in this thread. I might be new here but nothing I had read so far led me to believe dakka was a place were mistreatment of folks was considered "okay" simply because a few folks "agreed" on it. Blame the victim, classic. /sarcasm

Lt.Soundwave wrote:Not impressed by the folks further victimizing a player asking for advice simply because they dislike confrontation. Personally I have no issue with confrontation what so ever.

Sicksix the mockery can be put aside. It isnt constructive. Not everyone can so easily stand up for themselves especially in a line hobbycraft that is notorious for introverted souls. Get off your highhorse, no one "deserves" to be victimized. Period.

There's your "scene" kaldor.

As far as your issue is concerned ted bring it up with the TO and show clear examples of rules misuse and cheating. You dont need to rant and rave but if you can clearly state your view and point to evidence supporting it no reasonable person will chastise you for wanting a fair game.

Lt.Soundwave wrote:Positive encouragement is a far cry from what amounts to little more then bullying. There are examples of both in this thread. I might be new here but nothing I had read so far led me to believe dakka was a place were mistreatment of folks was considered "okay" simply because a few folks "agreed" on it. Blame the victim, classic. /sarcasm

Exactly what i've been thinking. Well put, have yourself a couple exalts. I'm sorry that everyone isn't as bold and forthcoming as you guys. Some people are just really uncomfortable about confrontation, and just have a hard time standing up for themselves. Saying that these people "Deserve" to be pushed around and walked over for this is really disgusting. If you honestly think that if someone doesn't stand up for themselves, it's ok to bully them, you're at a much lower standing in society than the cheaters that you so piously preach against. When you saw that shy, quite kid you knew in highschool that got picked on a lot (you know the one) getting harrassed and abused by some asshats in the halls, did you honestly think "Well, he ought to tell them off. His fault he's getting picked on, kid should just grow a spine and make 'um get off his case"? If you did, then you are part of the problem.

i guess you shouldnt let him shout at you in the first place, if someone was like that to me i would tell them "you have a problem with me/my army/codex/whatever then gtfo and dont play with me". well maybe in a nicer way.

loota boy wrote:

Lt.Soundwave wrote:Not impressed by the folks further victimizing a player asking for advice simply because they dislike confrontation. Personally I have no issue with confrontation what so ever.

Sicksix the mockery can be put aside. It isnt constructive. Not everyone can so easily stand up for themselves especially in a line hobbycraft that is notorious for introverted souls. Get off your highhorse, no one "deserves" to be victimized. Period.

There's your "scene" kaldor.

As far as your issue is concerned ted bring it up with the TO and show clear examples of rules misuse and cheating. You dont need to rant and rave but if you can clearly state your view and point to evidence supporting it no reasonable person will chastise you for wanting a fair game.

Lt.Soundwave wrote:Positive encouragement is a far cry from what amounts to little more then bullying. There are examples of both in this thread. I might be new here but nothing I had read so far led me to believe dakka was a place were mistreatment of folks was considered "okay" simply because a few folks "agreed" on it. Blame the victim, classic. /sarcasm

Exactly what i've been thinking. Well put, have yourself a couple exalts. I'm sorry that everyone isn't as bold and forthcoming as you guys. Some people are just really uncomfortable about confrontation, and just have a hard time standing up for themselves. Saying that these people "Deserve" to be pushed around and walked over for this is really disgusting. If you honestly think that if someone doesn't stand up for themselves, it's ok to bully them, you're at a much lower standing in society than the cheaters that you so piously preach against. When you saw that shy, quite kid you knew in highschool that got picked on a lot (you know the one) getting harrassed and abused by some asshats in the halls, did you honestly think "Well, he ought to tell them off. His fault he's getting picked on, kid should just grow a spine and make 'um get off his case"? If you did, then you are part of the problem.

I agree with much of the sentiment herein, but my issue is that we are moving away from TED's core issue. Which was, and I freely paraphase "I thought he was cheating, but was conflicted between making a scene and not making a scene, because he was a good player I thought I would come off worse off so decided against it".

I have not advocated the victimization of someone who has had nefarious tactics used upon them, but there is an important distinction to be made. Chiefly that is whether it was conducted against you "Knowingly" or "unknowingly", if knowingly as per this case then you cannot decry because you had an opportunity to right this and chose not to. If however, it is unknowingly then you are a victim of an underhand trick.

Others have derailed this thread with aggressive hyperbole, but the fundamental premise of knowingly allowing some to commit a move outside of the rules, but not having the courage to report it or take issue with it makes you complicit in the act.

EDIT - When it comes to bullying , appeasement never, ever works. This is a fundamental of the universe, you can either be a victim all your life, or learn to control your fear and make it work for you. I was bullied at school, but that was because I had never been taught properly how to fight or to have the moral courage to do something. This came later in life, and now I understand better with life experience how to handle anti-social behaviour. The threat of physical violence, will always hold fear for me, but then so does the fear of humiliation or shame, or worse the denial of my rights. When push comes to shove, it's up to every individual to find his line in the sand, but the Law is there to protect you so you should never, ever be afraid to stand up for yourself.

If the ref does not catch it, then its not cheating.

xxvaderxx wrote:If the ref does not catch it, then its not cheating.

And this is why we can't have nice things...

mwnciboo wrote:

loota boy wrote:

Lt.Soundwave wrote:Not impressed by the folks further victimizing a player asking for advice simply because they dislike confrontation. Personally I have no issue with confrontation what so ever.

Sicksix the mockery can be put aside. It isnt constructive. Not everyone can so easily stand up for themselves especially in a line hobbycraft that is notorious for introverted souls. Get off your highhorse, no one "deserves" to be victimized. Period.

There's your "scene" kaldor.

As far as your issue is concerned ted bring it up with the TO and show clear examples of rules misuse and cheating. You dont need to rant and rave but if you can clearly state your view and point to evidence supporting it no reasonable person will chastise you for wanting a fair game.

Lt.Soundwave wrote:Positive encouragement is a far cry from what amounts to little more then bullying. There are examples of both in this thread. I might be new here but nothing I had read so far led me to believe dakka was a place were mistreatment of folks was considered "okay" simply because a few folks "agreed" on it. Blame the victim, classic. /sarcasm

Exactly what i've been thinking. Well put, have yourself a couple exalts. I'm sorry that everyone isn't as bold and forthcoming as you guys. Some people are just really uncomfortable about confrontation, and just have a hard time standing up for themselves. Saying that these people "Deserve" to be pushed around and walked over for this is really disgusting. If you honestly think that if someone doesn't stand up for themselves, it's ok to bully them, you're at a much lower standing in society than the cheaters that you so piously preach against. When you saw that shy, quite kid you knew in highschool that got picked on a lot (you know the one) getting harrassed and abused by some asshats in the halls, did you honestly think "Well, he ought to tell them off. His fault he's getting picked on, kid should just grow a spine and make 'um get off his case"? If you did, then you are part of the problem.

I agree with much of the sentiment herein, but my issue is that we are moving away from TED's core issue. Which was, and I freely paraphase "I thought he was cheating, but was conflicted between making a scene and not making a scene, because he was a good player I thought I would come off worse off so decided against it".

I have not advocated the victimization of someone who has had nefarious tactics used upon them, but there is an important distinction to be made. Chiefly that is whether it was conducted against you "Knowingly" or "unknowingly", if knowingly as per this case then you cannot decry because you had an opportunity to right this and chose not to. If however, it is unknowingly then you are a victim of an underhand trick.

Others have derailed this thread with aggressive hyperbole, but the fundamental premise of knowingly allowing some to commit a move outside of the rules, but not having the courage to report it or take issue with it makes you complicit in the act.

EDIT - When it comes to bullying , appeasement never, ever works. This is a fundamental of the universe, you can either be a victim all your life, or learn to control your fear and make it work for you. I was bullied at school, but that was because I had never been taught properly how to fight or to have the moral courage to do something. This came later in life, and now I understand better with life experience how to handle anti-social behaviour. The threat of physical violence, will always hold fear for me, but then so does the fear of humiliation or shame, or worse the denial of my rights. When push comes to shove, it's up to every individual to find his line in the sand, but the Law is there to protect you so you should never, ever be afraid to stand up for yourself.

But would you say that you deserved all those years of bullying because you didn't learn to control your fear?

More OT, this really depends on what kind of person Ted is. If Ted is an just our average Joe, and doesn't have problems confronting people, then yeah, next time call him on it. While you aren't an aweful, scum-of-the-earth person like some of the people here are making you out to be, it is true that you can't really get to mad at him for cheating if you knew he was cheating but did nothing to stop it. This is a situation that you have to take control of quickly, and stop before it can start. If you let it go, then it gets much harder to stop it in the future. Just call him on it next time.

If Ted is an introverted person who can't handle confrontation and just shrinks away if met with any force, than he has to handle it differently. While Ted ought to work on coming out of his shell and not being a doormat, there are other ways to stop this that don't involve confrontation. Just tell a TO, or inform all the guys at the game store of what he is doing, and advise them not to play him.

Personally, I dislike certain kinds of confrontation myself. While i'll stop someone if they are cheating me, I have a harder time doing this if i'm new to an area. I'm also almost physically unable to call someone out for lying or bs. When someone starts laying out a story that's obviously total BS, or generally just lies, I just really hate calling them on it. I perfer to just nod my head and smile, and later inform other people around at the time that whatever he said was a lie.

loota boy wrote:
But would you say that you deserved all those years of bullying because you didn't learn to control your fear?

Actually yes I would, my fear of injury and pain put me at the mercy of another. This allowed him a degree of control over me, which is completely irrational, he never actually hurt me but the threat of physical violence was enough to cow me. So actually I was allowing him to control me, even if physical violence had been forthcoming, once again the fear of further pain would be enough to exercise control over me. There comes a point when you have to stand up to them or else you will be a victim all your life. If you don't then you are actually allowing them to make a victim out of you.

Thanks to those sticking up for me here, I appreciate it. As for the rest, it's so easy when you have 20/20 hindsight, and you're safely far away from the incident. You can say all the things you'd do in that sort of situation, without ever having to put them to the test. In real life you never have all the information, and are rarely in the ideal environment to do what you want. Also, bear in mind that even if you are in the right, you will not always be treated so, even if you can prove you are, people around you will not always choose to side with you.


PS, the TO is fully aware of this guys behavior, and he's looking into it(there have been other allegations made of cheating), and hopefully this sort of thing shouldn't happen again.

Lt.Soundwave wrote:Not impressed by the folks further victimizing a player asking for advice simply because they dislike confrontation. Personally I have no issue with confrontation what so ever.

Sicksix the mockery can be put aside. It isnt constructive. Not everyone can so easily stand up for themselves especially in a line hobbycraft that is notorious for introverted souls. Get off your highhorse, no one "deserves" to be victimized. Period.

There's your "scene" kaldor.

As far as your issue is concerned ted bring it up with the TO and show clear examples of rules misuse and cheating. You dont need to rant and rave but if you can clearly state your view and point to evidence supporting it no reasonable person will chastise you for wanting a fair game.

Good post. I don't think it helps to say things like "you desevred to lose because you did nothing about it". The guy has already said that his group is unique because they don't like confrontation. So in my opinion in this situation its best to stay calm and challenge and then let the other guy create the scene himself.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

loota boy wrote:Exactly what i've been thinking. Well put, have yourself a couple exalts. I'm sorry that everyone isn't as bold and forthcoming as you guys. Some people are just really uncomfortable about confrontation, and just have a hard time standing up for themselves. Saying that these people "Deserve" to be pushed around and walked over for this is really disgusting. If you honestly think that if someone doesn't stand up for themselves, it's ok to bully them, you're at a much lower standing in society than the cheaters that you so piously preach against. When you saw that shy, quite kid you knew in highschool that got picked on a lot (you know the one) getting harrassed and abused by some asshats in the halls, did you honestly think "Well, he ought to tell them off. His fault he's getting picked on, kid should just grow a spine and make 'um get off his case"? If you did, then you are part of the problem.

You too. Have an upvote.

Can you imagine if President Lincoln was like that? Can you imagine If he had just said "its their fault they are slaves because they don't stand up for themselves". Doesn't bear thinking about really. It would be horrible.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

xxvaderxx wrote:If the ref does not catch it, then its not cheating.

Welcome to my ignore list.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

loota boy wrote: But would you say that you deserved all those years of bullying because you didn't learn to control your fear?

More OT, this really depends on what kind of person Ted is. If Ted is an just our average Joe, and doesn't have problems confronting people, then yeah, next time call him on it. While you aren't an aweful, scum-of-the-earth person like some of the people here are making you out to be, it is true that you can't really get to mad at him for cheating if you knew he was cheating but did nothing to stop it. This is a situation that you have to take control of quickly, and stop before it can start. If you let it go, then it gets much harder to stop it in the future. Just call him on it next time.

If Ted is an introverted person who can't handle confrontation and just shrinks away if met with any force, than he has to handle it differently. While Ted ought to work on coming out of his shell and not being a doormat, there are other ways to stop this that don't involve confrontation. Just tell a TO, or inform all the guys at the game store of what he is doing, and advise them not to play him.

Personally, I dislike certain kinds of confrontation myself. While i'll stop someone if they are cheating me, I have a harder time doing this if i'm new to an area. I'm also almost physically unable to call someone out for lying or bs. When someone starts laying out a story that's obviously total BS, or generally just lies, I just really hate calling them on it. I perfer to just nod my head and smile, and later inform other people around at the time that whatever he said was a lie.

I agree with what you're saying here but I would also like to add that its more complicated than this. Human Beings are very complicated and sometimes its not just about general character but can also be about what kind of mood you're in and what you're feeling at that particular moment of time. Most of the time I won't have a problem with challenging a rule that I think is not right. I know it helps me learn and sometimes it turns out that I am wrong when it comes to the rules, but its always good to clarrify things and read them for yourself. However this is just my general behaviour, at other times I may just not be in the mood to take issue with a particular rule just so long as the other guy doesn't take the complete micky. Other times I might get more aggressive about it if it annoys me too much, but it depends on the situation and its not always clear what kind of mood I'm in until it happens as well.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

ted1138 wrote:Thanks to those sticking up for me here, I appreciate it. As for the rest, it's so easy when you have 20/20 hindsight, and you're safely far away from the incident. You can say all the things you'd do in that sort of situation, without ever having to put them to the test. In real life you never have all the information, and are rarely in the ideal environment to do what you want. Also, bear in mind that even if you are in the right, you will not always be treated so, even if you can prove you are, people around you will not always choose to side with you.

Correct its easy for others to criticise but its never as simple as they make it sound. Sometimes it can be more complicated than that.

PS, the TO is fully aware of this guys behavior, and he's looking into it(there have been other allegations made of cheating), and hopefully this sort of thing shouldn't happen again.

Sounds good. No confrontation needed either.

Kilkrazy wrote:What's the point in cheating?

If you cheat, you aren't playing the same game as your opponent, so it's completely irrelevant whether you win or not.

Don't store tournaments have prizes to win? Especially if there's an entrance fee? A chance to get something moderately expensive makes for great incentive to cheat.

Even my group puts up 10€ per participant towards prizes for our big summer tournament, and we too might see some questionable behavior at times. Will be less now with 6th allowing measuring at all times (one guy used to draw his measuring tape out much further than needed for moving in order to get a quick look at possible shooting/assault targets at the same time). OTOH, he'd do that prizes or no - he just can't see anything but victory as "fun".

xxvaderxx wrote:If the ref does not catch it, then its not cheating.

You better follow up with this and say you were joking. You were joking right? If not consider the same logic used in the sentence "If the police does not catch it, then its not murder."

Cheating is never ok.

We are playing a game of toy soldiers, so any true cheating to win at this just smacks of pathetic desperation.

DarthOvious wrote:

loota boy wrote: But would you say that you deserved all those years of bullying because you didn't learn to control your fear?

More OT, this really depends on what kind of person Ted is. If Ted is an just our average Joe, and doesn't have problems confronting people, then yeah, next time call him on it. While you aren't an aweful, scum-of-the-earth person like some of the people here are making you out to be, it is true that you can't really get to mad at him for cheating if you knew he was cheating but did nothing to stop it. This is a situation that you have to take control of quickly, and stop before it can start. If you let it go, then it gets much harder to stop it in the future. Just call him on it next time.

If Ted is an introverted person who can't handle confrontation and just shrinks away if met with any force, than he has to handle it differently. While Ted ought to work on coming out of his shell and not being a doormat, there are other ways to stop this that don't involve confrontation. Just tell a TO, or inform all the guys at the game store of what he is doing, and advise them not to play him.

Personally, I dislike certain kinds of confrontation myself. While i'll stop someone if they are cheating me, I have a harder time doing this if i'm new to an area. I'm also almost physically unable to call someone out for lying or bs. When someone starts laying out a story that's obviously total BS, or generally just lies, I just really hate calling them on it. I perfer to just nod my head and smile, and later inform other people around at the time that whatever he said was a lie.

I agree with what you're saying here but I would also like to add that its more complicated than this. Human Beings are very complicated and sometimes its not just about general character but can also be about what kind of mood you're in and what you're feeling at that particular moment of time. Most of the time I won't have a problem with challenging a rule that I think is not right. I know it helps me learn and sometimes it turns out that I am wrong when it comes to the rules, but its always good to clarrify things and read them for yourself. However this is just my general behaviour, at other times I may just not be in the mood to take issue with a particular rule just so long as the other guy doesn't take the complete micky. Other times I might get more aggressive about it if it annoys me too much, but it depends on the situation and its not always clear what kind of mood I'm in until it happens as well.

Of course, I agree entirely. But like you said, human beings are very complex, and if i tried to create a response for every possible reaction he could have been having, i'd probably still be typing the message right now, and would have an unparaleled understanding of psychology. So i just split it up into two broad groups.

@mwnciboo

I think you are being a little hard on yourself. Fear of pain and injury is natural for most everybody, and the threat of such is pretty cowing for most of us. I had friends that were bullied, and the last thing I wanted to hear them say is "I guess i deserve it. I ought to have stood up for myself." No one deserves to be bullied or walked all over. Being bullied is never your fault for not standing up for yourself, or not being able to assert yourself. You should learn to stand up for yourself, and you should learn to assert yourself, but when you don't do so, that doesn't make it alright to bully you. Just because someone makes it easy for you to do something wrong does not make it ok. It'd be easy to mug an old women walking by herself down a deserted and sometimes dangerous street. She ought to know that she shouldn't walk alone at night on dangerous streets. Does that mean it's ok to mug her, because she's allowed herself to be in a dangerous situation? Try explaining that one to the police.

Just in case I come across as harsh or offensive here, i don't mean it like that. I hope you don't read this like it's an attack on you.

If he cheats refuse to play him and inform the TO before the event starts.

loota boy wrote:

DarthOvious wrote:

loota boy wrote: But would you say that you deserved all those years of bullying because you didn't learn to control your fear?

More OT, this really depends on what kind of person Ted is. If Ted is an just our average Joe, and doesn't have problems confronting people, then yeah, next time call him on it. While you aren't an aweful, scum-of-the-earth person like some of the people here are making you out to be, it is true that you can't really get to mad at him for cheating if you knew he was cheating but did nothing to stop it. This is a situation that you have to take control of quickly, and stop before it can start. If you let it go, then it gets much harder to stop it in the future. Just call him on it next time.

If Ted is an introverted person who can't handle confrontation and just shrinks away if met with any force, than he has to handle it differently. While Ted ought to work on coming out of his shell and not being a doormat, there are other ways to stop this that don't involve confrontation. Just tell a TO, or inform all the guys at the game store of what he is doing, and advise them not to play him.

Personally, I dislike certain kinds of confrontation myself. While i'll stop someone if they are cheating me, I have a harder time doing this if i'm new to an area. I'm also almost physically unable to call someone out for lying or bs. When someone starts laying out a story that's obviously total BS, or generally just lies, I just really hate calling them on it. I perfer to just nod my head and smile, and later inform other people around at the time that whatever he said was a lie.

I agree with what you're saying here but I would also like to add that its more complicated than this. Human Beings are very complicated and sometimes its not just about general character but can also be about what kind of mood you're in and what you're feeling at that particular moment of time. Most of the time I won't have a problem with challenging a rule that I think is not right. I know it helps me learn and sometimes it turns out that I am wrong when it comes to the rules, but its always good to clarrify things and read them for yourself. However this is just my general behaviour, at other times I may just not be in the mood to take issue with a particular rule just so long as the other guy doesn't take the complete micky. Other times I might get more aggressive about it if it annoys me too much, but it depends on the situation and its not always clear what kind of mood I'm in until it happens as well.

Of course, I agree entirely. But like you said, human beings are very complex, and if i tried to create a response for every possible reaction he could have been having, i'd probably still be typing the message right now, and would have an unparaleled understanding of psychology. So i just split it up into two broad groups

Absolutely, I was just adding onto what you already said.

to get ahead in life...yes.

in this game, no.

Spetulhu wrote:

Kilkrazy wrote:What's the point in cheating?

If you cheat, you aren't playing the same game as your opponent, so it's completely irrelevant whether you win or not.

Don't store tournaments have prizes to win? Especially if there's an entrance fee? A chance to get something moderately expensive makes for great incentive to cheat.

Even my group puts up 10€ per participant towards prizes for our big summer tournament, and we too might see some questionable behavior at times. Will be less now with 6th allowing measuring at all times (one guy used to draw his measuring tape out much further than needed for moving in order to get a quick look at possible shooting/assault targets at the same time). OTOH, he'd do that prizes or no - he just can't see anything but victory as "fun".

It shows that prizes spoil competitions.

I roll dice and do what they tell me too....


I would feel obligated to tell my opponents all my pertinent special codex rules.. However the BRB rules should be known by everyone as best as possible.

Army list cheating is different though.. that is blatant.

I suppose that is why giving each other a list is good practice.

I know the last few games we have played people forget things or forgotten something that could have changed an outcome. I only play in a garage gaming group though so its more about playing then winning with power lists.