A PM conversation with the estimable Pilau Rice got me thinking about some of the basic misunderstanding of the Warp. Seeing the fluff discussion here on Dakka, it seems to me that many people don't understand just how distinct the Warp is from real space. So I thought of a metaphor that might help.
Imagine a picture of a Guardsman shooting his lasrifle. You can see the little streak of red energy "pew pewing" across the image. That image represents a world and with respect to that world the streak of red is not a "streak of red" but rather a laser beam, a.k.a., electromagnetic radiation, a.k.a., light. But with respect to the real world, it's just a streak of red drawn by someone. In one realm of meaning, it is light. In another realm of meaning, it is a symbol of light.
Now, how do these "realms of meaning" interact? Well, I can bring the meaning of the symbol of light to bear on my mind -- to perceive what it means and to talk about it with others (a better metaphor here is the words you are reading now as compared to the ideas that they express). More importantly for the purposes of this thread, I can bring "real" light to bear on the symbol of light by shining a lamp on the picture.
The Warp is kind of like that. When the Primaris Psyker unleashes a lightning bolt of warp energy it's not a real lightning bolt. It's not an electrical phenomenon like what you see in the sky during a storm. Go back to our metaphor of shining a lamp on the picture of the Guardsman. What if me shining a lamp on the picture of the Guardsman made the area in which the Guardsman was standing "in his world" brighter? That's how I see the Warp interacting with real space.
So, here's a similar metaphor -- imagine yourself being able to "jump into" a video game. How would that work? If you're playing a game where the characters cannot jump, can you jump when you "enter" the game world? This is what daemons face when they invade real space: the impossible breaching the realm of the possible.
Even then members of the physical realm probably aren't even perceiving brief glimpses of the warp properly. They are still limited by what they can and cannot see, feel, etc. So I guess not only is it like a picture as you say, but one of those optical illusion ones where there is a hidden picture; only we can see the picture just not the illusion or something like that. Or did I just go completely past it there?
Why isn't it a Lightning bolt? If it looks like a Lightning bolt, zaps like a lightning bolt and isn't an Alpha Legionnaire in fancy dress, surely it's a lightning bolt.
It's all energy transformed into what the Psyker wants at that time. In the warp the Realm of Chaos can be moulded to what ever the thinker wants, it's the same in the the case of the psyker in the phsyical realm, just on a smaller scale. If it just fired out as warp energy or whatever it is it wouldn't be recognisable. It's the desire of the individual that gives it any meaning.
The warp is a realm of pure energy, psykers suck out the juice from it when they need too.
Edit: Actually, maybe I see your point here now though, regardless of what it is, it isn't that hex ray that you fires out of your eyes, it's something that happened in the warp with a reflection comprehended in the physical plain, maybe ...
Because a lightning bolt is an electrical phenomenon. The Warp has nothing to do with electrons and charges, etc, which are all facets of the material world. "Energy" is a real space concept used to imagine the Warp. It is like confusing the picture of a lightning bolt with a real lightning bolt. Or saying that the word "grasshopper" is the same thing as an actual grasshopper.
Because a lightning bolt is an electrical phenomenon. The Warp has nothing to do with electrons and charges, etc, which are all facets of the material world. "Energy" is a real space concept used to imagine the Warp. It is like confusing the picture of a lightning bolt with a real lightning bolt. Or saying that the word "grasshopper" is the same thing as an actual grasshopper.
Indeed, see my edit bruv
True, but you're also converting something from a realm where nothing applies into an action where there are laws of gravity and time etc.
Maybe the act makes the power conform to its real world counterpart.
n0t_u wrote:So I guess not only is it like a picture as you say, but one of those optical illusion ones where there is a hidden picture; only we can see the picture just not the illusion or something like that. Or did I just go completely past it there?
Yes, that's a good point. When you see this picture:
You might see two faces and/or a vase. But what if the idea of "vase" is utterly incomprehensible to your mind. In that case, this is just a picture of two faces. What if I told you that this is a picture of two faces and/or and vase and/or a Jhyalmaktorx. The problem is, your brain is incapable of comprehending what a Jhyalmaktorx is, so you have no chance of ever perceiving it.
What if perhaps to accommodate the materium, it converts to fit within the rules of it? Then much like a cube of sugar in a glass of water stuff sent into it eventually dissolves and becomes of the warp.
So it is lightning, but at the same time isn't and behaves as lightning.
Pilau Rice wrote:Actually, maybe I see your point here now though, regardless of what it is, it isn't that hex ray that you fires out of your eyes, it's something that happened in the warp with a reflection comprehended in the physical plain, maybe ...
Exactly so! When you start to think of it this way, especially if you have any background in the Cthulhu mythos, you can understand the whole "Perils of the Warp" thing. You're not just "channeling energies" like electricity moving through a non-conductive metal -- you're associating fundamentally different modes of existence. It's like a two-dimensional circle simultaneously existing as a three-dimensional cube.
n0t_u wrote:What if perhaps to accommodate the materium, it converts to fit within the rules of it?
It does and it doesn't. For example, daemons can be fought with bolt pistols. But they cannot be killed with bolt pistols. The material weapon only influences the extent to which they are effectively reflected (or to use the 40k term in an unusual way, "translated") into materiality.
Pilau Rice wrote:Actually, maybe I see your point here now though, regardless of what it is, it isn't that hex ray that you fires out of your eyes, it's something that happened in the warp with a reflection comprehended in the physical plain, maybe ...
Exactly so! When you start to think of it this way, especially if you have any background in the Cthulhu mythos, you can understand the whole "Perils of the Warp" thing. You're not just "channeling energies" like electricity moving through a non-conductive metal -- you're associating fundamental different modes of existence. It's like a two-dimensional circle simultaneously existing as a three-dimensional cube.
n0t_u wrote:What if perhaps to accommodate the materium, it converts to fit within the rules of it? Then much like a cube of sugar in a glass of water stuff sent into it eventually dissolves and becomes of the warp.
So it is lightning, but at the same time isn't and behaves as lightning.
Pilau Rice wrote:True, but you're also converting something from a realm where nothing applies into an action where there are laws of gravity and time etc.
Maybe the act makes the power conform to its real world counterpart.
But then I would argue that you are harnessing a power and transforming it into something that can be used in accordance to your location. Psychic powers can still be used in the warp, what happens then?
Sorry to quote myself there as well
I can't comment on anything to do with Cthulhu unfortunately.
Pilau Rice wrote:Psychic powers can still be used in the warp, what happens then?
They are just as or more effective. The better question is, what happens if you shoot at a daemon in the Warp with a bolt pistol? Presumably, the "will to injure" would adhere to the bullet. The bullet would carry this psychic reality of the desire to maim to the target.
Pilau Rice wrote:Psychic powers can still be used in the warp, what happens then?
They are just as or more effective. The better question is, what happens if you shoot at a daemon in the Warp with a bolt pistol? Presumably, the "will to injure" would adhere to the bullet. The bullet would carry this psychic reality of the desire to maim to the target.
Would you fire Lightning or warp energy? You're in the the actual realm where the energy comes from but would Lightning have any meaning where it doesn't exist
I'm not sure about the bolter, I would guess that the same amount of damage would be done to it, possibly less. You don't hear of any survivors when ships lose their Gellar fields, Daemons are just warp energy after all, when they are in their own realm.
I guess Draigo is more or less the extent of what we have to go by for some being of the material realm being within the warp for an extended period. Unless there is more that I'm unaware of. Space Hulks I'd figure would have an example or two within them.
Yep, Psychic Powers and Daemons are even more powerful in the warp, being so close to their juice-box/life force an' all.
Physical weaponry is supposed to struggle against [weakened - due to material realm] Daemons anyway, let alone when they're in the warp. So I'd imagine Bolters etc. would have a much more limited, but still existent, effect.
That's a very neat idea about the desire to harm the target effecting the bullet, Manchu, could well be 'true'.
Pilau Rice wrote:Would you fire Lightning or warp energy?
Hmm, there is no question of it being lightning or warp energy. It is warp energy whether "fired" in the materium or immaterium.
Geller Fields are mysterious. Do they just protect you from the Warp or do they allow the material to even exist in the Immaterium? I'd say it's more likely the latter.
n0t_u wrote:So I guess not only is it like a picture as you say, but one of those optical illusion ones where there is a hidden picture; only we can see the picture just not the illusion or something like that. Or did I just go completely past it there?
Yes, that's a good point. When you see this picture:
You might see two faces and/or a vase. But what if the idea of "vase" is utterly incomprehensible to your mind. In that case, this is just a picture of two faces. What if I told you that this is a picture of two faces and/or and vase and/or a Jhyalmaktorx. The problem is, your brain is incapable of comprehending what a Jhyalmaktorx is, so you have no chance of ever perceiving it.
Disagree with this particular point (the rest is VERY interesting, especially the Bolt round in the Warp....)
This would be a case of recognition, as opposed to perception. You could still 'see' the object, just not know the name for it/the use for it etc.
EDIT: Gellar Fields extend a small bubble of the Materium around the ship IIRC
n0t_u wrote:I guess Draigo is more or less the extent of what we have to go by for some being of the material realm being within the warp for an extended period. Unless there is more that I'm unaware of. Space Hulks I'd figure would have an example or two within them.
Draigo is a different case entirely, he's been put there by a Daemon so probably some sinister intention there, but that's a true point on the Space Hulks and one I've mentioned before in another thread.
Manchu wrote:
Pilau Rice wrote:Would you fire Lightning or warp energy?
Hmm, there is no question of it being lightning or warp energy. It is warp energy whether "fired" in the materium or immaterium.
You need a point of reference, you want to fry the Daemon with Lightning, as it's a power you used before and you can comprehend what it does and looks like, but it doesn't exist in the warp. Does it just go poof and not work or does it fire as lightning. Or you think I want to fire Warp Energy, you can't comprehend for the life of you what it actually is or looks like, so nothing happens?
Manchu wrote:]Geller Fields are mysterious. Do they just protect you from the Warp or do they allow the material to even exist in the Immaterium? I'd say it's more likely the latter.
It takes a bubble of real space in with you from what I understand.
Manchu wrote:Geller Fields are mysterious. Do they just protect you from the Warp or do they allow the material to even exist in the Immaterium? I'd say it's more likely the latter.
It is the latter, they project a small bubble somehow making it so that you are not really in the warp in a way. In much the same sense as a submarine.
Revenent Reiko wrote:This would be a case of recognition, as opposed to perception. You could still 'see' the object, just not know thae name for it/the use for it etc.
I would agree if it were a case of simply not knowing something that was knowable in the first place. But in my example, I provide that the Jhyalmaktorx cannot be known by the human mind. It is therefore "invisible."
EDIT: Gellar Fields extend a small bubble of the Materium around the ship IIRC
This is what I thought as well but I guess there are Space Hulks to consider. Who knows what the feth is going on with Draigo.
Just to say; Lexicanum clarifies "Gellar field device emits a field called a Gellar field, essentially creating a bubble of real space around the ship. The weakening, failure, and collapse of a Gellar Field while the ship is traveling through the warp would be completely disastrous. Warp entities would tear the ship apart to reach and consume the souls of the crew." Om nom nom.
Just Dave wrote:Just to say; Lexicanum clarifies "Gellar field device emits a field called a Gellar field, essentially creating a bubble of real space around the ship. The weakening, failure, and collapse of a Gellar Field while the ship is traveling through the warp would be completely disastrous. Warp entities would tear the ship apart to reach and consume the souls of the crew." Om nom nom.
Just Dave wrote:Just to say; Lexicanum clarifies "Gellar field device emits a field called a Gellar field, essentially creating a bubble of real space around the ship. The weakening, failure, and collapse of a Gellar Field while the ship is traveling through the warp would be completely disastrous. Warp entities would tear the ship apart to reach and consume the souls of the crew." Om nom nom.
Revenent Reiko wrote:This would be a case of recognition, as opposed to perception. You could still 'see' the object, just not know the name for it/the use for it etc.
I would agree if it were a case of simply not knowing something that was knowable in the first place. But in my example, I provide that the Jhyalmaktorx cannot be known by the human mind. It is therefore "invisible."
Good point, and i see where you are coming from, maybe its just the example scrambling my mind (entirely possible), but if there is something there to see (in this example) then it would be 'see-able' (not a word ), regardless of whether or not you know what it is.
I think it is just the example, but i cant think of a better one to explain what i mean I know where you are coming form though.
EDIT: Gellar Fields extend a small bubble of the Materium around the ship IIRC
This is what I thought as well but I guess there are Space Hulks to consider. Who knows what the feth is going on with Draigo.
Space Hulks are known not to have Gellar fields, but if we continue the Bolter Shell thought, what if the ships that make up the Hulk hold a..memory (for want of a better word) of their shape/size/characteristics so as to be less effected by the other-ness (also not a word) of the Immaterium? Also, i would imagine that anything on the Space Hulk would either have to be resilient to the Warp (Orks), immune to it to some extent (Tau on space hulks? or CSM/Renegades) or to try to restore the Gellar fields of one of the ships that still functions. Of course, just because a ship has formed part of a hulk does not mean that the Gellar field failed, it could have fallen prey to a multitude of different fates...
Draigo....no fething idea, havent read his fluff TBH. To jump on the bandwagon, i guess his plot-armour generates its own Gellar field...
Revenent Reiko wrote:
Space Hulks are known not to have Gellar fields, but if we continue the Bolter Shell thought, what if the ships that make up the Hulk hold a..memory (for want of a better word) of their shape/size/characteristics so as to be less effected by the other-ness (also not a word) of the Immaterium? Also, i would imagine that anything on the Space Hulk would either have to be resilient to the Warp (Orks), immune to it to some extent (Tau on space hulks? or CSM/Renegades) or to try to restore the Gellar fields of one of the ships that still functions. Of course, just because a ship has formed part of a hulk does not mean that the Gellar field failed, it could have fallen prey to a multitude of different fates...
Maybe they are just left alone? They quite often drop off a tasty treat onto some random planet, or they could be like the flower bed of the warp in a way.
Revenent Reiko wrote:Draigo....no fething idea, havent read his fluff TBH. To jump on the bandwagon, i guess his plot-armour generates its own Gellar field...
I guess it might also be the case that Space Hulks aren't necessarily "in the Warp" in some kind of exclusive sense. Maybe they are more like the Daemon Worlds in the Eye of Terror?
To run with an example: So if the lightning bolt is not a lightning bolt, what is it? What is the psyker actually doing here? In simplest terms he is causing physical damage to another thing at a distance, and an arc that has physical qualities that make it appear similar to a lightning bolt appears as a manifestation of this warp based act in the real world. Is this a visual illusion created by the psyche of the psyker, or is a something more physical? Just trying to see the Jhyalmaktorx here...
EDIT: Gosh, apparently I took longer to write this than I realised! An explosion of posts in the meantime!
Manchu wrote:I guess it might also be the case that Space Hulks aren't necessarily "in the Warp" in some kind of exclusive sense. Maybe they are more like the Daemon Worlds in the Eye of Terror?
The process could be slow I guess. I don't think Daemons have managed to stay in the material world itself for too long for us to know what'd happen to them. Usually they're there briefly, then back they go.
htj wrote:To run with an example: So if the lightning bolt is not a lightning bolt, what is it? What is the psyker actually doing here? In simplest terms he is causing physical damage to another thing at a distance, and an arc that has physical qualities that make it appear similar to a lightning bolt appears as a manifestation of this warp based act in the real world. Is this a visual illusion created by the psyche of the psyker, or is a something more physical? Just trying to see the Jhyalmaktorx here...
EDIT: Gosh, apparently I took longer to write this than I realised! An explosion of posts in the meantime!
I'd say it's the way it visually manifests (here, in a way convenient for the psyker).
For example, in psychic battles, psykers often adopt certain forms (such as sharks) - as shown in Ravenor - so the manifestation of overt psychic attacks is probably similar.
So, for human's we'd be more likely to use lightning or sharks etc., but Daemons would just use a mass of energy and limbs and so forth...
Manchu wrote:I guess it might also be the case that Space Hulks aren't necessarily "in the Warp" in some kind of exclusive sense. Maybe they are more like the Daemon Worlds in the Eye of Terror?
What, like the Orks Waaagh energy
They are definitely in the warp at times, the Unholy Harbinger is mentioned to have broken from warp near Cloras in the old Necrons Dex and the Chaos dex says
As well as ancient Chapter or Legion warships, Chaos Space Marines make use of Space Hulks to travel the Warp - P57
Reiko wrote:what if the ships that make up the Hulk hold a..memory (for want of a better word) of their shape/size/characteristics so as to be less effected by the other-ness (also not a word) of the Immaterium
Machine spirit, perhaps? Just a thought. Also, otherness is totally a word. You're good to use that with impugnity.
Automatically Appended Next Post: @Just Dave
That makes a lot of sense. If I'm understanding you correctly, you're saying that the manifestation of the usage of warp energy is shaped by the mind controlling it. Specifically, said manifestation is a form that the weilder's mind is capable of understanding. That's really interesting, brings us back to Manchu's above Lovecraft reference. So a perils of the warp attack is potentially the breakdown of those 'reality analogy' defences and exposure to the maddening effects of the warp.
Or as Lovecraft would have it - 'That was when I went mad.'
Manchu wrote:I guess it might also be the case that Space Hulks aren't necessarily "in the Warp" in some kind of exclusive sense.
What, like the Orks Waaagh energy
Yes, which is exactly like human psychic energy -- in the Warp and not in the Warp. Or better, generated in realspace and reflected or effectuated in the Warp.
Chaos Space Marines make use of Space Hulks to travel the Warp - P57
I didn't say that they were not in the Warp. Just that -- along with the rest of this thread -- it's never as simple as "in" or "out" when it comes to this topic. How can a ship arrive at its destination before it left? Dunno, but that's Warp travel for you.
Manchu wrote:Yes, which is exactly like human psychic energy -- in the Warp and not in the Warp. Or better, generated in realspace and reflected or effectuated in the Warp.
You missed the wink, I still don't agree with you in this regard Manchu. But anyway.
Manchu wrote:I didn't say that they were not in the Warp. Just that -- along with the rest of this thread -- it's never as simple as "in" or "out" when it comes to this topic. How can a ship arrive at its destination before it left? Dunno, but that's Warp travel for you.
I didn't say you didn't, I was just provided a source that they do most certainly use the warp. I think I posted to fast as I was also going to say that they often pop out and then pop back into it.
Orks definitely relate to the Warp differently from humans. That is a given. But, to use a metaphor, it seems to me that it is a matter of copper being more conductive than tungsten. Electricity remains the same.
The Warp is similar to the Hell dimension from Event Horizon I imagine. Really, Event Horizon would be a great unofficial prequel to 40k, a story of humanity's discovery of Warp Travel....Before they got gellar fields.
In any regard trying to describe the Warp is impossible as it's meant to be incomprehensible to our own senses and sense of reality. Why you go nanners if you see it.
It's [probably - we're dealing with the warp here] not; it's a representation of the psychic power in a manner comprehensible to the caster and cool for the reader.
If you're throwing warp energy at someone that fries them, then it's possible you visualise this as lightning; hence the lightning flying from the fingers. It's not actual lightning, but a representation of the warp/psychic power.
And rule of cool; it looks cool, so logic comes second.
It isn't necessarily actual lightning nor is it necessarily actual fire.
Manchu wrote:
Pilau Rice wrote:Why isn't it a Lightning bolt?
Because a lightning bolt is an electrical phenomenon. The Warp has nothing to do with electrons and charges, etc, which are all facets of the material world. "Energy" is a real space concept used to imagine the Warp. It is like confusing the picture of a lightning bolt with a real lightning bolt. Or saying that the word "grasshopper" is the same thing as an actual grasshopper.
For the lightning argument, maybe it's like Skyrim and the fire shout. The word isn't necessarily fire, but power or energy, and fire and lightning is just energy. So when a psycher throws around fireballs and lightning, it's just raw energy manifesting as excited air molecules or electrons, depending on what the spycher thinks best symbolizes power.
In reality, you can't blow stuff up with your mind because that breaks the laws of conservation. The warp helps out by bending the laws of reality, and providing the energy needed to blow stuff up with your mind.
Warp Energy is warping energy from a realm with no laws of physics. It can pretty much do anything. LIke I said fire "spells" are actually fire. I think psychic powers are only limited in what they can do by the power level of the psyker and what he believes he can do. Now before I open up that can of belief worms I guess another way of phrasing it would be the energy is shaped/utilized/implemented by the psykers brain/will but the actual effect is still real.
@Mr Nobody: Sure, lightning is just a discharge resulting from imbalanced electron charges. I guess the Warp is just the thing that imbalanced the electrons if that's how you want to think of it. But really, that's just the same argument -- we've just put up a curtain of "science" to block out the "it's basically magic" part. The point of the thread is to remind people that the Warp is not anything like real space. So yeah, it's basically magic.
KamikazeCanuck wrote:I guess another way of phrasing it would be the energy is shaped/utilized/implemented by the psykers brain/will but the actual effect is still real.
Yep, that thing that looks like fire will burn you and that thing that looks like lightning will shock you.
Manchu wrote:@Mr Nobody: Sure, lightning is just a discharge resulting from imbalanced electron charges. I guess the Warp is just the thing that imbalanced the electrons if that's how you want to think of it. But really, that's just the same argument -- we've just put up a curtain of "science" to block out the "it's basically magic" part. The point of the thread is to remind people that the Warp is not anything like real space. So yeah, it's basically magic.
KamikazeCanuck wrote:I guess another way of phrasing it would be the energy is shaped/utilized/implemented by the psykers brain/will but the actual effect is still real.
Yep, that thing that looks like fire will burn you and that thing that looks like lightning will shock you.
Ya, that's fine but it's still lightening it just has a supernatural origin.
Just Dave wrote:And rule of cool; it looks cool, so logic comes second.
You know, being a psyker is like being able to treat the Rule of Cool like a law of physics.
KamikazeCanuck wrote:Ya, that's fine but it's still lightening it just has a supernatural origin.
Effectively yes. Technically, not necessarily. Just because you were hit by a high velocity projectile doesn't mean someone shot you with a gun. Is it meaningfully different, from the point of the wounded person? Nope.
And on the note of fire; it's not actually fire. Yeah, it's displayed as fire and yeah it burns, but it's warp energy - it won't be put out with an extinguisher...
No, it is fire....If you use your brain to set a book on fire it's just a normal fire. You could use an extinguisher. To make fire you need fuel, heat and oxygen. Your just using some light warp energy as heat source instead of a lighter.
Don't get me wrong there's also crazy supernatural warpfire that can lite in space and burns your very soul! But, there's also normal fire...
Yeah, there's "curtain of SCIENE" regular fire started by a magical spark (I guess that spark is warp fire?) and there's "curtainless" magical fire that doesn't need an excuse to be magical. You can pick either.
Manchu wrote:Yeah, there's "curtain of SCIENE" regular fire started by a magical spark (I guess that spark is warp fire?) and there's "curtainless" magical fire that doesn't need an excuse to be magical. You can pick either.
I choose to be burned to death by normal fire, thank you sir.
KamikazeCanuck wrote:I choose to be burned to death by normal fire, thank you sir.
And if I was going to be fethed to death, I'd perfer "normal" sex. But when daemonettes are involved, that ain't gonna happen. Not the prettiest metaphor but it ... erm, drives the point home.
KamikazeCanuck wrote:No, it is fire....If you use your brain to set a book on fire it's just a normal fire. You could use an extinguisher. To make fire you need fuel, heat and oxygen. Your just using some light warp energy as heat source instead of a lighter.
Don't get me wrong there's also crazy supernatural warpfire that can lite in space and burns your very soul! But, there's also normal fire...
[Yup, totally left myself logged in at work so it looks like im a complete, non-replying douche.... ]
Pilau Rice wrote:
Revenent Reiko wrote:
Space Hulks are known not to have Gellar fields, but if we continue the Bolter Shell thought, what if the ships that make up the Hulk hold a..memory (for want of a better word) of their shape/size/characteristics so as to be less effected by the other-ness (also not a word) of the Immaterium? Also, i would imagine that anything on the Space Hulk would either have to be resilient to the Warp (Orks), immune to it to some extent (Tau on space hulks? or CSM/Renegades) or to try to restore the Gellar fields of one of the ships that still functions. Of course, just because a ship has formed part of a hulk does not mean that the Gellar field failed, it could have fallen prey to a multitude of different fates...
Maybe they are just left alone? They quite often drop off a tasty treat onto some random planet, or they could be like the flower bed of the warp in a way.
Literally, as i went to reply 'i dont know what you mean' it occured to me what you meant...
I thought we had decided that the Immaterium wouldnt support Material objects as it is a different dimension (hence the bolter shell being powered in the use of the object as opposed to its force)? I meant, wouldnt the Hulk start to break up in the Warp? is it the built in use of the thing that allows it to remain as it is?
Also, i have this image of Space Hulks as Pizza delivery guys now
htj wrote:
Reiko wrote:what if the ships that make up the Hulk hold a..memory (for want of a better word) of their shape/size/characteristics so as to be less effected by the other-ness (also not a word) of the Immaterium
Machine spirit, perhaps? Just a thought. Also, otherness is totally a word. You're good to use that with impugnity.
Not what i meant, but i now wonder how long it takes before machine spirits become corrupted when they are submerged in the Warp?
Awesome, otherness has just been added to my permanent vocabulary (as opposed to my made up vocabulary, which is much shorter, but more interesting )
KamikazeCanuck wrote:No, it is fire....If you use your brain to set a book on fire it's just a normal fire. You could use an extinguisher. To make fire you need fuel, heat and oxygen. Your just using some light warp energy as heat source instead of a lighter.
Don't get me wrong there's also crazy supernatural warpfire that can lite in space and burns your very soul! But, there's also normal fire...
Dude,fire is fire IT BURNS...
Flamer fire taunts and mocks you and your friends as you burn. I also wouldn't be surprised if warp fire simply got worse as you tried to extinguish it.
The warp is described in depth in the first and second night lord books. Where one of the main characters, octavia, is a navagator.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Warp fire and lightning are not real. They are images and sensations brought from the psykers mind into the material realm. He controlls the properties of these entities. If he wants something to burn he thinks of a gout of fire, he could just as well throw warp water on something with the properties of fire. Same with lighting. He could instead fry someone with a warp tree instead of lightning.
Revenent Reiko wrote:
Space Hulks are known not to have Gellar fields, but if we continue the Bolter Shell thought, what if the ships that make up the Hulk hold a..memory (for want of a better word) of their shape/size/characteristics so as to be less effected by the other-ness (also not a word) of the Immaterium? Also, i would imagine that anything on the Space Hulk would either have to be resilient to the Warp (Orks), immune to it to some extent (Tau on space hulks? or CSM/Renegades) or to try to restore the Gellar fields of one of the ships that still functions. Of course, just because a ship has formed part of a hulk does not mean that the Gellar field failed, it could have fallen prey to a multitude of different fates...
Maybe they are just left alone? They quite often drop off a tasty treat onto some random planet, or they could be like the flower bed of the warp in a way.
Literally, as i went to reply 'i dont know what you mean' it occured to me what you meant..
I thought we had decided that the Immaterium wouldnt support Material objects as it is a different dimension (hence the bolter shell being powered in the use of the object as opposed to its force)? I meant, wouldnt the Hulk start to break up in the Warp? is it the built in use of the thing that allows it to remain as it is?
Also, i have this image of Space Hulks as Pizza delivery guys now .
Can we truly decide anything about the warp, we're trying to explain a Dimension from a fictional game, where even the greatest minds in that world have no real explanation for it either
I guess they do start to break up, but a Hulk is an amalgamation of lots of detritus. I can imagine that it picks up stuff as often as it loses pieces.
Revenent Reiko wrote:
htj wrote:
Reiko wrote:what if the ships that make up the Hulk hold a..memory (for want of a better word) of their shape/size/characteristics so as to be less effected by the other-ness (also not a word) of the Immaterium
Machine spirit, perhaps? Just a thought. Also, otherness is totally a word. You're good to use that with impugnity.
Not what i meant, but i now wonder how long it takes before machine spirits become corrupted when they are submerged in the Warp?
Awesome, otherness has just been added to my permanent vocabulary (as opposed to my made up vocabulary, which is much shorter, but more interesting )
Do Machine Spirits already have a presence in the warp or are they already warp energy anyway hmm?
Pilau Rice wrote:
Can we truly decide anything about the warp, we're trying to explain a Dimension from a fictional game, where even the greatest minds in that world have no real explanation for it either
I guess they do start to break up, but a Hulk is an amalgamation of lots of detritus. I can imagine that it picks up stuff as often as it loses pieces.
....yes? OK, 'decided' was too strong a word, but 'strongly hinted at' may be better...
true, i just wonder how each piece retains its material essence in the Warp....
Do Machine Spirits already have a presence in the warp or are they already warp energy anyway hmm?
Edits: Bawkses, BAWKSES
Got you thinking now Whats the latest consensus on what a machine spirit is these days?
Revenent Reiko wrote:
true, i just wonder how each piece retains its material essence in the Warp....
It is a good point, perhaps it is just because they aren't alive. I have a short story at home that gives an account of the first warp travelers, a reference to the Stone Men I believe, where they crafted vessels from Stone that protected the people inside from warp predators. I guess the same applies here?
Revenent Reiko wrote:
Got you thinking now Whats the latest consensus on what a machine spirit is these days?
I'll have to have a gander on that one, I don't think the actual source, so to speak, of the machine spirit has actual been gone into to much, if at all.
Revenent Reiko wrote:
true, i just wonder how each piece retains its material essence in the Warp....
It is a good point, perhaps it is just because they aren't alive. I have a short story at home that gives an account of the first warp travelers, a reference to the Stone Men I believe, where they crafted vessels from Stone that protected the people inside from warp predators. I guess the same applies here?
Also a good point, i wondder why they used Stone instead of metal? I think ive read excerpts from that, is it a bit like a poem?
Pilau Rice wrote:
Revenent Reiko wrote:
Got you thinking now Whats the latest consensus on what a machine spirit is these days?
I'll have to have a gander on that one, I don't think the actual source, so to speak, of the machine spirit has actual been gone into to much, if at all.
Definitely something id be interested in getting an answer to/discussing or whatever.
Revenent Reiko wrote:
Also a good point, i wondder why they used Stone instead of metal? I think ive read excerpts from that, is it a bit like a poem?
It's from a short story by Andy Chambers, called Ancient History, it has kinda a Poem at the start actually - a Warp Shanty I guess. It's a story told by a character called Kron, who himself is worthy of a thread, he's a bit of a mystery. I think it's more symbolism rather than actually being made from stone, I couldn't imagine that stone would do very well in space
Revenent Reiko wrote:Definitely something id be interested in getting an answer to/discussing or whatever.
There doesn't seem to be much actually, just that it's automated systems. But from some background stories, we know that there appear to be more than this, having conversations with captains and navigators and stuff.
Pilau Rice wrote: It's from a short story by Andy Chambers, called Ancient History, it has kinda a Poem at the start actually - a Warp Shanty I guess. It's a story told by a character called Kron, who himself is worthy of a thread, he's a bit of a mystery. I think it's more symbolism rather than actually being made from stone, I couldn't imagine that stone would do very well in space
Hmm, maybe i havent read it then.
Sounds interesting though. will have to see if i can get my hands on it (Google here i come!). Warp Shanty That was my first thought, i dont see anything made out of stone being made air-tight for starters...I imagine it would have been something thick and strong to withstand the 'predators', as with no Gellar Field it would just have to last long enough to keep the daemons out during the journey...?
There doesn't seem to be much actually, just that it's automated systems. But from some background stories, we know that there appear to be more than this, having conversations with captains and navigators and stuff.
Well theres quite a lot of discussion at least on whether ot not the Machine Spirit(s) constitute A.I., or as you said, automated systems 'reacting' in a proscribed way to certain input (that is exactly how they are programmed, but noone understands any more), or something else entirely. Will have to try some more Lexicanum-fu/Google-fu later (the IE we use at work is SO out of date i cant view Lexicanum's search bar/menu...yeah, its that bad) to see if theres any tidbits on what they are.
Really, Machine Spirits having conversations with people? whats that from?
i know the classic example here is the Land Raider from Whinn's World that went on a rampage on its own due to its Machine Spirit....
I do love a Meatilicious from Dominoes
Definitely a Pizza GoGo man myself, they are the only place i have found that does good (not just decent, GOOD) stuffed crust as well as a god pizza....
EDIT: was going to change my spelling of 'good pizza', but you know what...im not goin to, its THAT good
Sounds interesting though. will have to see if i can get my hands on it (Google here i come!). Warp Shanty That was my first thought, i dont see anything made out of stone being made air-tight for starters...I imagine it would have been something thick and strong to withstand the 'predators', as with no Gellar Field it would just have to last long enough to keep the daemons out during the journey...?
It's good, pretty much all the stories in Let the Galaxy Burn are worth a read and if you can get your pizza coated fingers on it, do it! Just lick them before reading. I'll quote a bit of Ancient History when I get home.
Revenent Reiko wrote:Well theres quite a lot of discussion at least on whether ot not the Machine Spirit(s) constitute A.I., or as you said, automated systems 'reacting' in a proscribed way to certain input (that is exactly how they are programmed, but noone understands any more), or something else entirely. Will have to try some more Lexicanum-fu/Google-fu later (the IE we use at work is SO out of date i cant view Lexicanum's search bar/menu...yeah, its that bad) to see if theres any tidbits on what they are.
Really, Machine Spirits having conversations with people? whats that from?
i know the classic example here is the Land Raider from Whinn's World that went on a rampage on its own due to its Machine Spirit....
I think the difference between A I and the machine spirit are the organic parts required to it possible, the organic parts are what gives it its soul.
A Short story in Planetkill called Seven Views on Ulhguth's Passing, the Slaughtersong in Daemonworld, although this seems to be a unique instance, The ships in the Night Lords trilogy seem capable of talking with the Navigator, Octavia. That's off the top of my head ...
Revenent Reiko wrote:
Definitely a Pizza GoGo man myself, they are the only place i have found that does good (not just decent, GOOD) stuffed crust as well as a god pizza....
Pizza GoGo ey? Will have a look and see what veritable delights the offer. I had a rather delicious Pizza from Asda last night actually
Pilau Rice wrote:It's good, pretty much all the stories in Let the Galaxy Burn are worth a read and if you can get your pizza coated fingers on it, do it! Just lick them before reading. I'll quote a bit of Ancient History when I get home.
Sounds good...and thanks!
Pilau Rice wrote:I think the difference between A I and the machine spirit are the organic parts required to it possible, the organic parts are what gives it its soul.
A Short story in Planetkill called Seven Views on Ulhguth's Passing, the Slaughtersong in Daemonworld, although this seems to be a unique instance, The ships in the Night Lords trilogy seem capable of talking with the Navigator, Octavia. That's off the top of my head ...
Hmm, But then a Bolter supposedly has a Machine Spirit but doesnt have Organic Parts, as does a LR/Drop Pod etc...This is where my query comes in about what constitutes a Machine Spirit? and what, really, are they?
Also, (without having read the books so please correct me if im wrong), but are they not all Daemon-Possessed ships? Theres a Daemon possessed vessel in the second Grey Knight novel that 'talks' (think its just basic communication as it is too focussed on destroying the ship in front of it to pay attention to mere mortals) as well, but i would deem these at least Deamon-corrupted and therefore not true Machine Spirits....? Again, if im wrong, please correct me.
Im now trying to wrack my brains for any mentions os non-Chaos Machine Spirits communicating...Titans being the obvious choice, but they are special i believe?
Pilau Rice wrote:Pizza GoGo ey? Will have a look and see what veritable delights the offer. I had a rather delicious Pizza from Asda last night actually
Do it! BBQ Original HIGHLY recommended, as is the Hawaaian (although not so much recently, they changed from real ham to processed BS ham and its not very nice )
Pilau Rice wrote:Can we truly decide anything about the warp, we're trying to explain a Dimension from a fictional game, where even the greatest minds in that world have no real explanation for it either
It works both ways. I see people talking about the Warp here and it's a lot of blithe assumptions that the Warp operates just like the material universe. So this thread isn't really about deciding how it does in fact work but just trying to show that those assumptions -- like warp lightning being actual lightning -- are just unfounded.
Revenent Reiko wrote:Hmm, But then a Bolter supposedly has a Machine Spirit but doesnt have Organic Parts, as does a LR/Drop Pod etc...This is where my query comes in about what constitutes a Machine Spirit? and what, really, are they?
Hmm, that is a good point, but does the Bolter have the ability to fire itself or does it need something squishy to pull the trigger? The more complex machine spirits have these organic parts. I think there was a picture of one in a Land Raider that was actually composed of a human brain.
Revenent Reiko wrote:Also, (without having read the books so please correct me if im wrong), but are they not all Daemon-Possessed ships? Theres a Daemon possessed vessel in the second Grey Knight novel that 'talks' (think its just basic communication as it is too focussed on destroying the ship in front of it to pay attention to mere mortals) as well, but i would deem these at least Deamon-corrupted and therefore not true Machine Spirits....? Again, if im wrong, please correct me.
In the Night Lords case, there are certainly parts of the ship that are tainted but otherwise no. The case of the ship in Seven Views, Daemons or Warp Entities want to assist the Machine Spirit in in going to the Eight Fold Forge, I guess some kind of Dark Mechanicus forge world, but the coming of Ulhguth forces these away and the Machine Spirit is a bit .. poop, now what do i do. The Slaughtersong doesn't seem to be mentioned as anything Daemonic, but it's a relic from the Dark Age of Technology.
Revenent Reiko wrote:Im now trying to wrack my brains for any mentions os non-Chaos Machine Spirits communicating...Titans being the obvious choice, but they are special i believe?
Same principle I think, but then you have a whole crew tied into the Titan to make it go and as far as I know with these, they can't control themselves at all. In Titan: God - Machine, the princeps of the Titan dies and get absorbed by the Titan itself and is able to communicate at times.
Revenent Reiko wrote:
Do it! BBQ Original HIGHLY recommended, as is the Hawaaian (although not so much recently, they changed from real ham to processed BS ham and its not very nice )
I guess that's BBQ and not Tomato based, got to be Tomato for me.
I understand the "machine spirit" to be a superstitious explanation of how things work. It's not necessarily related to AI. People do the same thing IRL all the time, assigning anthropomorphic qualities to inanimate things. How many times have you heard people say "my computer hates me" or like Han Solo beseech their cars to "hold together, baby" when they make weird noises? According to the Uplifting Primer, Guardsmen are taught to pray to the machine spirit of their lasrifles as they strip, clean, and reassemble them. None of it has anything to do with the Warp.
But machine spirits are not spirits. At most, they are AIs. At the least, they are a formalization of a superstitious concept that IRL people casually throw around.
Pilau Rice wrote:Do you know that they are not Spirits?
I can't find you a citation that says "attention Pilau Rice, the Machine Spirits are not actually spirits" but them not being spirits is kind of the whole point. The idea is that man really doesn't understand the technology that surrounds him. Yeah, he can take apart a lasgun and put it back together but he primarily thinks of it in an anthropomorphic way. It's a joke really -- a joke on modern people. We have all this cool stuff that almost all of us really don't know anything about and we treat it in weird, superstitious ways.
Pilau Rice wrote:
Hmm, that is a good point, but does the Bolter have the ability to fire itself or does it need something squishy to pull the trigger? The more complex machine spirits have these organic parts. I think there was a picture of one in a Land Raider that was actually composed of a human brain.
True, in that case, are there different 'grades' of Machine Psirit? I know that there are more or less complicated Machine Spirits installed in various machinery (Land Raider/Drop Pod Vs Bolter). Maybe the least complicated ones require extenral input and the others dont? Is it based on the size of the object (which may go some way to explaining the seeming sentience of Titans and Ships)? Good point on the LR, forgot about them having brains...
Pilau Rice wrote:In the Night Lords case, there are certainly parts of the ship that are tainted but otherwise no. The case of the ship in Seven Views, Daemons or Warp Entities want to assist the Machine Spirit in in going to the Eight Fold Forge, I guess some kind of Dark Mechanicus forge world, but the coming of Ulhguth forces these away and the Machine Spirit is a bit .. poop, now what do i do. The Slaughtersong doesn't seem to be mentioned as anything Daemonic, but it's a relic from the Dark Age of Technology.
Thanks for the clarification. My mindis going off on all sorts of tangents now..what if the Machine Spirits grow? As in, is the reason this one can communicate with the Navigator is because of the length of time it has been around? Or some sort of special bond with the Navigator built up over millenia? Going to have to read the NL books, ive heard good things about them (also just found out i can get them on my Kindle, excited!)
Pilau Rice wrote:Same principle I think, but then you have a whole crew tied into the Titan to make it go and as far as I know with these, they can't control themselves at all. In Titan: God - Machine, the princeps of the Titan dies and get absorbed by the Titan itself and is able to communicate at times.
Hmmm, i was under the impression that the only member of the crew directly linked in to the Titan was the Princeps...another novel i need to read...(so many to catch up on....) Odd how the Titan cant move itself but a LR can..
Pilau Rice wrote:
I guess that's BBQ and not Tomato based, got to be Tomato for me.
Awww what?! In that case, i have it from good authority that the Mighty Meaty (Meatfeast?) is very good as well.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Manchu wrote:
Pilau Rice wrote:Do you know that they are not Spirits?
I can't find you a citation that says "attention Pilau Rice, the Machine Spirits are not actually spirits" but them not being spirits is kind of the whole point. The idea is that man really doesn't understand the technology that surrounds him. Yeah, he can take apart a lasgun and put it back together but he primarily thinks of it in an anthropomorphic way. It's a joke really -- a joke on modern people. We have all this cool stuff that almost all of us really don't know anything about and we treat it in weird, superstitious ways.
Agreed, hence their use of unguents to 'placate the Machine Spirits from getting angry and getting too hot', whereas a fan or a decent heat sink would work just as well...
However, there are cases of Machine Spirits taking control/communicating etc. as stated above...
Pilau Rice wrote:Do you know that they are not Spirits?
I can't find you a citation that says "attention Pilau Rice, the Machine Spirits are not actually spirits" but them not being spirits is kind of the whole point. The idea is that man really doesn't understand the technology that surrounds him. Yeah, he can take apart a lasgun and put it back together but he primarily thinks of it in an anthropomorphic way. It's a joke really -- a joke on modern people. We have all this cool stuff that almost all of us really don't know anything about and we treat it in weird, superstitious ways.
Well, I want one dammit
Our computers and the like aren't generally made out of human brains, I tried this once but it kept leaking in my laptop bag.
Lasrifles aren't made of human brains, either. Do LR's have human brains tucked into their workings? I haven't heard of this but it wouldn't necessarily surprise me. I can't recall any instance of a human brain plugged into a machine being referred to as a machine spirit. OTOH, there are lots of examples of things that clearly don't incorporate human brains having machine spirits.
Revenent Reiko wrote:
True, in that case, are there different 'grades' of Machine Psirit? I know that there are more or less complicated Machine Spirits installed in various machinery (Land Raider/Drop Pod Vs Bolter). Maybe the least complicated ones require extenral input and the others dont? Is it based on the size of the object (which may go some way to explaining the seeming sentience of Titans and Ships)? Good point on the LR, forgot about them having brains...
I would think so, I imagine that a Land Raider, with it's organic pieces, are more complicated than those of a Las Rifle.
Revenent Reiko wrote:Thanks for the clarification. My mindis going off on all sorts of tangents now..what if the Machine Spirits grow? As in, is the reason this one can communicate with the Navigator is because of the length of time it has been around? Or some sort of special bond with the Navigator built up over millenia? Going to have to read the NL books, ive heard good things about them (also just found out i can get them on my Kindle, excited!)
The Night Lord vessel doesn't like the Navigator at the start, but I won't go to much into that if you are going to get them. I don't know, maybe they mature like people do?
Revenent Reiko wrote:Hmmm, i was under the impression that the only member of the crew directly linked in to the Titan was the Princeps...another novel i need to read...(so many to catch up on....) Odd how the Titan cant move itself but a LR can..
You might be right here, I thought that they were all connected in some regard to the Titan, but the Princeps has a direct Mind link to it.
I don't think you would want a Titan controlling itself maybe though, think of the damage it could do if it did go nuts, more so than a Land Raider. I just remembered on of the sketches in God Machine has a Titan who's crew had all been killed, gets woken up and remembers the death of it's crew and does actually go nuts. It gets destroyed by the main Titan in the series.
Revenent Reiko wrote:
Awww what?! In that case, i have it from good authority that the Mighty Meaty (Meatfeast?) is very good as well.
That sounds proper Bo, I tell thee!
Revenent Reiko wrote:
Manchu wrote:
Pilau Rice wrote:Do you know that they are not Spirits?
I can't find you a citation that says "attention Pilau Rice, the Machine Spirits are not actually spirits" but them not being spirits is kind of the whole point. The idea is that man really doesn't understand the technology that surrounds him. Yeah, he can take apart a lasgun and put it back together but he primarily thinks of it in an anthropomorphic way. It's a joke really -- a joke on modern people. We have all this cool stuff that almost all of us really don't know anything about and we treat it in weird, superstitious ways.
Agreed, hence their use of unguents to 'placate the Machine Spirits from getting angry and getting too hot', whereas a fan or a decent heat sink would work just as well...
However, there are cases of Machine Spirits taking control/communicating etc. as stated above...
I can imagine Manchu being right for in the case of Lasguns and stuff but for machines that could be deemed sentient, not so much.
Pilau Rice wrote:I can imagine Manchu being right for in the case of Lasguns and stuff but for machines that could be deemed sentient, not so much.
Well, brain =/= sentient. A brain is a structure of cells firing and receiving electronic impulses. Honestly, we don't know whether the chemical reactions involved with that constitutes the "soul" that has a reflection in the Warp.
We know for sure that "machine spirit" does not refer to AI because things without AI are said to possess machine spirits. That said, a machine that does work according to some limited (i.e., sanctioned) AI would still be said to possess a machine spirit. But what about a thing that possesses a more advanced (i.e., blasphemous) AI? Would techpriests consider that illegal AI to be the object's machine spirit or would they consider it to be something more like a daemon possessing a normal person's body?
Moreover, is it possible for such a sentient AI to have a presence in the Warp? Can AI be psychic?
Manchu wrote:That actually brings up a good point.
We know for sure that "machine spirit" does not refer to AI because things without AI are said to possess machine spirits. That said, a machine that does work according to some limited (i.e., sanctioned) AI would still be said to possess a machine spirit. But what about a thing that possesses a more advanced (i.e., blasphemous) AI? Would techpriests consider that illegal AI to be the object's machine spirit or would they consider it to be something more like a daemon possessing a normal person's body?
Moreover, is it possible for such a sentient AI to have a presence in the Warp? Can AI be psychic?
Basically the IoM has the same laws about AIs that the Citadel in Mass Effect does. ME uses the terminology AI and VI. And AI is a fully aware sentient lifeform and a VI (virtual intelligence) is just an advanced computer program but not "alive". The IoM terminology is AI (in this case it stands for Abomitable Intelligence) and Machine Spirit.
Automatically Appended Next Post: As for the warp presence I think AIs do have a bit of a warp presence. Probably about Tau level. In fact even a machine spirit probably does.
Machine Spirits can be quite intelligent. GW did a whole article on the adventures of Land Raiders who have no people in them. They dug themselves out of holes, found their way home and one even won a small battle on its own. Basically a Land Raider is about as smart as a German Sheperd.
Just Dave wrote:Personally, I see Machine Spirits as the psychic presence or personality of machines.
You mean that sentient creatures confer psychic energy onto objects by emotionally comprehending them?
I honestly don't know. That's not what I meant, but I still don't know.
To me, they seem to exhibit personalities and descriptions that are far more similar to a psychic presence or personality than anything else.
Not to mention that humans can bond/merge with them (The Gildar Rift, Night Lords series) and the opinion of AI's within the Imperium.
Manchu wrote:But ... what about the machine spirit of the lasrifle?
Do they even have Machine Spirits?
Assuming they do, then as I said; to me it seems more like a personality or psychic presence than AI, for example.
So many unknowns with Machine Spirits though.
Regarding Machine Spirits:
If you read the Eisenhorn trilogy he, and another inquisition pysker, penetrate into the machine spirit of a corrupted titan. It was portrayed as something with a warp presence, a mind that was utterly corrupted, one of great age, great memories, great thought processes, one that committed great atrocities in glee. A mind that could fight back, killing the other psyker and nearly eisenhorn himself.
Manchu wrote:I'm with you up until you say Machine Spirit means VI. That's simply not true. A lasrifle has a machine spirit.
Good comparison between a LR and a dog. Do we have any fluff examples of regular animals have Warp signatures?
Ah, those "Machine Spirits". I usually only see those refered to as spirit but I could see people using the terms interchangably. I think when people talk about those type of machine spirits they're just really going ino superstition. The machine spirits I was talking about before are basically computers but I think for a lot of people in the Imperium they don't really know what has a CPU and what doesn't. It's all just magical machinery so they treat it all superstitiously. It's just a part of the culture too. In Gaunt's Ghosts one Tanith says a short prayer when picking up a fallen comrades lasgun to assuage it's spirit. Marines are also quite concerned with the machine spirit of their armour but who knows maybe PA does have a "VI".
As for animals, well basically spirit flows through everything except Pariahs. In one Eisenhorn book Gregor does some psychic stuff you calm the "anima" of his sword. So even inanimate objects can register in the warp (if you beleive they do ).
KamikazeCanuck wrote:A machine spirit is just a "normal" AI as opposed to a fully sentient self aware AI, which are illegal.
Yep this is how I understand a Machine Spirit also. I think the name suggests an ignorance of how it works by those within the 41st millennium, rather than any psychic/warp voodoo.
Blaggard wrote:Regarding Machine Spirits:
If you read the Eisenhorn trilogy he, and another inquisition pysker, penetrate into the machine spirit of a corrupted titan. It was portrayed as something with a warp presence, a mind that was utterly corrupted, one of great age, great memories, great thought processes, one that committed great atrocities in glee. A mind that could fight back, killing the other psyker and nearly eisenhorn himself.
The titan scene in Malleus doesn't mention Machine Spirit at all.
Just Dave wrote:Personally, I see Machine Spirits as the psychic presence or personality of machines.
Like how Navigators have to link with a ships Machine Spirit.
KamikazeCanuck wrote:Basically a Land Raider is about as smart as a German Sheperd.
Dang. That it? All my German Shepherds have been numptys. Mostly. Seriously cute, but pretty damn stupid...
Ya, well sometimes your Land Raider is a police dog and sometimes it's a numpty.
KamikazeCanuck wrote:A machine spirit is just a "normal" AI as opposed to a fully sentient self aware AI, which are illegal.
Yep this is how I understand a Machine Spirit also. I think the name suggests an ignorance of how it works by those within the 41st millennium, rather than any psychic/warp voodoo.
Blaggard wrote:Regarding Machine Spirits:
If you read the Eisenhorn trilogy he, and another inquisition pysker, penetrate into the machine spirit of a corrupted titan. It was portrayed as something with a warp presence, a mind that was utterly corrupted, one of great age, great memories, great thought processes, one that committed great atrocities in glee. A mind that could fight back, killing the other psyker and nearly eisenhorn himself.
The titan scene in Malleus doesn't mention Machine Spirit at all.
I don't have the book to hand so I cannot back my reference up (borrowed it, he got Cain and I got Horn/Gaunt).
What do those two penetrate then? I know they then go onto kill the pilot, but they had to get through the Titan first.
KamikazeCanuck wrote:A machine spirit is just a "normal" AI as opposed to a fully sentient self aware AI, which are illegal.
Yep this is how I understand a Machine Spirit also. I think the name suggests an ignorance of how it works by those within the 41st millennium, rather than any psychic/warp voodoo.
Blaggard wrote:Regarding Machine Spirits:
If you read the Eisenhorn trilogy he, and another inquisition pysker, penetrate into the machine spirit of a corrupted titan. It was portrayed as something with a warp presence, a mind that was utterly corrupted, one of great age, great memories, great thought processes, one that committed great atrocities in glee. A mind that could fight back, killing the other psyker and nearly eisenhorn himself.
The titan scene in Malleus doesn't mention Machine Spirit at all.
I don't have the book to hand so I cannot back my reference up (borrowed it, he got Cain and I got Horn/Gaunt).
What do those two penetrate then? I know they then go onto kill the pilot, but they had to get through the Titan first.
I think you are talking about the "mind link" (also "mind impulse unit") Eisenhorn calls the psychic link between the pilot and the titan. There's no mention of Machine Spirit.
I DO NOT pretend, as I have already reflected, to have any specific understanding of the workings of a Battle Titan. No man does, unless he be a priest of Mars or, like Thuring, the owner of illicitly transmitted lore. Aemos probably knew a thing or two. I knew for certain he had seen Adep-tus Mechanicus mind-impulse units firsthand, for he'd told me as much, long before, in the cryogenerator chamber of the tomb-vault Processional Two Twelve on Hubris.
But he was not with me in that chilly, ransacked chapel, nor was a decent conversation with him viable.
However, I knew enough to understand that the function of a Titan depended on the connection between man and machine, between the human brain and the mechanical sentience. That was achieved - miraculously - through the psychic interface of the mind-impulse unit.
Which meant, in very simple terms, that the root of our problem was essentially a psychic one. If we could disrupt or, better still, destroy, the mind link...
Pilau Rice wrote:
I would think so, I imagine that a Land Raider, with it's organic pieces, are more complicated than those of a Las Rifle.
Agreed. And then we get into the point Manchu raised after, about how complicated a Machine (Spirit?) needs to be to, for example, have a Warp presence...
Pilau Rice wrote:The Night Lord vessel doesn't like the Navigator at the start, but I won't go to much into that if you are going to get them. I don't know, maybe they mature like people do?
Ooo, ok. Definitely going to get those now, thanks for not spoiling
Pilau Rice wrote:You might be right here, I thought that they were all connected in some regard to the Titan, but the Princeps has a direct Mind link to it. [
I don't think you would want a Titan controlling itself maybe though, think of the damage it could do if it did go nuts, more so than a Land Raider. I just remembered on of the sketches in God Machine has a Titan who's crew had all been killed, gets woken up and remembers the death of it's crew and does actually go nuts. It gets destroyed by the main Titan in the series.
Wow, that sound spretty crazy. Imagine if it did that while in Transit....
Chaos Battle Titans....Possessed or not? Corupted Machine Spirits? Im now thinking about Hereticus (Eisenhorn), as it was already mentioned...
Pilau Rice wrote:That sounds proper Bo, I tell thee!
[youtube]www.youtube.com/watch?v=kMEsBEBypRE [/youtube]
(Note, i cant actually see this link at work , so im not sure if its the right one )
Pilau Rice wrote:I can imagine Manchu being right for in the case of Lasguns and stuff but for machines that could be deemed sentient, not so much.
Agreed.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Pilau Rice wrote:
Manchu wrote:Moreover, is it possible for such a sentient AI to have a presence in the Warp? Can AI be psychic?
So me and Rieko didn't take it off course to far then
Revenent Reiko wrote:Chaos Battle Titans....Possessed or not? Corupted Machine Spirits? Im now thinking about Hereticus (Eisenhorn), as it was already mentioned...
Banelord for sure
Revenent Reiko wrote:
Pilau Rice wrote:
So me and Rieko didn't take it off course to far then
Lexicanum page on Banelord wrote:No one knows whether the Chaos Titans are still piloted by their original crew, their lives made eternal within the Eye of Terror, or by something far worse
Lexicanum page on Banelord wrote:No one knows whether the Chaos Titans are still piloted by their original crew, their lives made eternal within the Eye of Terror, or by something far worse
Lexicanum page on Banelord wrote:No one knows whether the Chaos Titans are still piloted by their original crew, their lives made eternal within the Eye of Terror, or by something far worse
Manchu wrote:Moreover, is it possible for such a sentient AI to have a presence in the Warp? Can AI be psychic?
So me and Rieko didn't take it off course to far then
Daemons can possess Machine Spirits, perhaps it's why the Daemon is able to posses a machine in the first place, due to its connection with the warp?
I haven't heard of any daemon possessed Necrons.
Daemons can also be forged into swords and the like which don't have any machine spirit, and there's always the soul grinders and defiliers. I'm not sure how you'd draw the line on posession vs being bound to a physical object. Maybe that's just splitting hairs on something that makes no real difference. And this is ignoring Eldar technology, which is actually designed to use psychic energy, thus lending itself to something like actual posession by warp entities. A certain Blackstone Fortress for example.
daveNYC wrote:Daemons can also be forged into swords and the like which don't have any machine spirit, and there's always the soul grinders and defiliers. I'm not sure how you'd draw the line on posession vs being bound to a physical object. Maybe that's just splitting hairs on something that makes no real difference. And this is ignoring Eldar technology, which is actually designed to use psychic energy, thus lending itself to something like actual posession by warp entities. A certain Blackstone Fortress for example.
Who is to say what the basis is for a Daemon Sword/ Weapon?
Soul Grinders are built in the Soul Forge, noone knows how, but:
Lexicanum wrote:In the ash plain outside the Forge of Souls, daemons battle each other for the chance of fusing with the mechanical constructs of the daemonic smiths.
Therefore Daemon-forged and are specially designed to allow a Daemon to inhabit them.
Defilers are purpose-built and designed to be possessed, built in the Eye of Terror (where the Warp leaks into realspace) on commision by Abaddon. Again, specially designed for Daemons to possess them, and therefore removing the need for a machine Spirit to be present (if we are taking that as the reason to why machines can be possessed in the first place).
Which Eldar weapon that uses psychic energy?
Blackstone Fortresses are, again, a special case, built by their Gods, and as far as i knew, werent possessed, merely hijacked.
A good example of the warp and it's strange ways is in the book "Eye of Terror".
A great example of Machine Spirits is in the novel "Titanicus".
As far as the lightning idea...
I'd think that the artists rendition of "lightning" is what we as normal mortals could comprehend with our own eyes.
Perhaps a madman wouldn't see lightning, but perhaps snakes or as someone else mentioned a tree or some such.
Warp fire and Pyrokinetics are two different things in my view. Warp fire is warp energy. Pyrokinetics is the warp changing your brain so that it can burn things.
Just Dave wrote:I think 1 Blackstone was possessed; nom'ed Eldrad and all that.
Fair point, i was under the impressino that one was just 'inhabited' by a Keeper of Secrets (or some other Slaanesh-y manifestation), as opposed to possessing it.
Just Dave wrote:I think 1 Blackstone was possessed; nom'ed Eldrad and all that.
Fair point, i was under the impressino that one was just 'inhabited' by a Keeper of Secrets (or some other Slaanesh-y manifestation), as opposed to possessing it.
Well IIRC Eldrad tried to connect his mind to the Blackstone and through that he got nom'ed, rather than there simply being a greater daemon.
Just Dave wrote:I think 1 Blackstone was possessed; nom'ed Eldrad and all that.
Fair point, i was under the impressino that one was just 'inhabited' by a Keeper of Secrets (or some other Slaanesh-y manifestation), as opposed to possessing it.
Well IIRC Eldrad tried to connect his mind to the Blackstone and through that he got nom'ed, rather than there simply being a greater daemon.
daveNYC wrote:Daemons can also be forged into swords and the like which don't have any machine spirit, and there's always the soul grinders and defiliers. I'm not sure how you'd draw the line on posession vs being bound to a physical object. Maybe that's just splitting hairs on something that makes no real difference. And this is ignoring Eldar technology, which is actually designed to use psychic energy, thus lending itself to something like actual posession by warp entities. A certain Blackstone Fortress for example.
Who is to say what the basis is for a Daemon Sword/ Weapon?
Soul Grinders are built in the Soul Forge, noone knows how, but:
Lexicanum wrote:In the ash plain outside the Forge of Souls, daemons battle each other for the chance of fusing with the mechanical constructs of the daemonic smiths.
Therefore Daemon-forged and are specially designed to allow a Daemon to inhabit them.
Defilers are purpose-built and designed to be possessed, built in the Eye of Terror (where the Warp leaks into realspace) on commision by Abaddon. Again, specially designed for Daemons to possess them, and therefore removing the need for a machine Spirit to be present (if we are taking that as the reason to why machines can be possessed in the first place).
Which Eldar weapon that uses psychic energy?
Blackstone Fortresses are, again, a special case, built by their Gods, and as far as i knew, werent possessed, merely hijacked.
It's more that daemons can get into objects that aren't usually considered to have a machine spirit. Even in the Imperium I don't think there's anyone who looks at a basic sword and venerates the machine spirit of the combination of a lever and a wedge. They might dig on it because it's old or fancy or something, but there's no mention of a machine spirit.
It's not so much that Eldar weapons use psychic energy, it's that the wraithbone that they tend to make all their stuff out of is psychicly conductive. Don't know if it's in the current codex, but I believe the last one specifically mentioned that the psychoreactive nature of their materials allows them to create armor that affords superior protection without limiting their mobility. Then there's the slightly more obvious situations of Wraithguard and then the use of spirit stones on other vehicles. That's straight up using the souls of dead Eldar to run various machines.
I know where you are coming form though.
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Do Machine Spirits already have a presence in the warp or are they already warp energy anyway hmm?
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