So, I was posting on a largely unrelated thread and mentioned that I couldn't think of how a writer could truly ruin the fluff behind the Imperial Guard. Make them incompetent? Hell 80% of the Guard is already portrayed that way. Make them the best individual soldiers in the galaxy? The other 20% are already like that (Cadians are just below marines, Catachans are the best jungle fighters etc.)

Anyway, what changes to the fluff of your faction could you think of that would ruin it for you?

If Sisters were shown to be somehow genetically or magically enhanced, that would ruin them.

Scientifically or logically explaining how Ork's technology and the energy they emmit during a WAAGH!

Necrons gaining back their flesh via bio-transferrance

The Eldar stumbling upon their intact Empire, which they had actually just misplaced.

Space Wolves: Take the name literally and make them werewolves in space, instead of Vikings in space. Oh wait. That already happened. Well, partly anyway. I still like bits of their current fluff.

Eldar: Take away their shtick as technologically most advanced, knowledgeable, arrogant hyper-psychic, dying race. Oh wait, that also already happened. (Well, except for the dying bit.)

Yep, GW is doing a pretty good job of killing my interest in their background.

Buttons wrote:So, I was posting on a largely unrelated thread and mentioned that I couldn't think of how a writer could truly ruin the fluff behind the Imperial Guard. Make them incompetent? Hell 80% of the Guard is already portrayed that way. Make them the best individual soldiers in the galaxy? The other 20% are already like that (Cadians are just below marines, Catachans are the best jungle fighters etc.)

Anyway, what changes to the fluff of your faction could you think of that would ruin it for you?

How is 80% of the guard incompetent?
And how are Cadians "just below space marines"?

If you made the IG an elite fighting force, that would kind of ruin them for me.

I also can't think of a way to ruin orks. Not with out completely changing them and then they aren't orks anymore anyway.

Making any Imperial faction unequivocably good guys. I like my Imperium, grim, dark, and nasty. It's why I love the setting. They're skirting dangerously close to this, in my opinion.

Manchu wrote:If Sisters were shown to be somehow genetically or magically enhanced, that would ruin them.

Yup.

Testify wrote:

Buttons wrote:So, I was posting on a largely unrelated thread and mentioned that I couldn't think of how a writer could truly ruin the fluff behind the Imperial Guard. Make them incompetent? Hell 80% of the Guard is already portrayed that way. Make them the best individual soldiers in the galaxy? The other 20% are already like that (Cadians are just below marines, Catachans are the best jungle fighters etc.)

Anyway, what changes to the fluff of your faction could you think of that would ruin it for you?

How is 80% of the guard incompetent?
And how are Cadians "just below space marines"?

Ever look at Chenkov, Penal Legions, Conscripts, or the basic Infantry Squad fluff entries in any codex? Compared to everyone else they are incompetent, losing 10 million men to capture a single fortress. As for Cadians The current codex lists them as "some of the finest troops in the Imperial Guard" lexicanum states "The Cadians are widely regarded as some of the best troops in the Imperium, short of the Space Marines themselves." granted I can't find the exact source for that claim. Cadians have always been portrayed as some of the best human warriors in the galaxy, granted due to the fame of marines it seems like every "elite" formation that isn't made up of marines is second only to the marines, whether they are storm troopers, Cadians, or Afriel Strain troopers.



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Zylor wrote:The Eldar stumbling upon their intact Empire, which they had actually just misplaced.

The Blood Raven's 5th company was lost in the warp, traveled back in time, and stole the Eldar Empire. I thought this was canon.

-Space Marines: Matt Ward doing a p good job at that

-Imperial Guard: Turn them into the new Space Marines/Mary Stu's

-SoB: Keep doing what GW is doing with them

-Chaos: Starts working with the Imperium against other factions,

-Eldar: Make them less morally ambiguous and less brutal, more noble and more like the Protoss

-Dark Eldar: Soften them

-Tyranids: Give them the Newcron treatment> No more central hivemind, Hive Tyrants have personalities and run their own swarms (One likes to collect things, one works as a mercenary, another likes to keep in his own territory, etc.)

-Orks: Go back to the Rogue Trader complete jokes, or vice versa take away any kind of humor. The current balance is the best.

-Tau: Turn them from "the best" faction and more morally ambigious/grey to Nazi oppressors

Chenkov's tactics or his troops aren't exactly "incompetent" - it's just that some regiments value the individual soldier's life even less than others, or rather they value the equipment more. Whilst Cadia may affort to clad each of its soldiers in body armour and lavishly handing out large kits of equipment, some worlds simply lack these resources as they are not regarded as a "priority" by the Munitorum. Not to mention that the Cadian Interior Guard is a convenient means for distributing training amongst the troops, whereas other IG regiments are most often raised on an "as needed" basis, in which case many of them won't be as experienced (depending on the world) and will have to use "learning by doing" a bit more than the Cadians do.

That doesn't make these regiments "incompetent", though. They'd be incompetent if they would fail in their tasks. They'd be incompetent if they would turn tail and run. Yet the grimdark truth is that they (usually) do not give up, regardless of the cost, but continue marching onward until the objective is secured. It may not seem efficient to us, but when a soldier is worth less than the weapon he is issued, then the priorities change.

You can call the WW2 Red Army incompetent for its tactics, but in the end they still beat an enemy who was much more professional and had a technological advantage. That is what, for example, Chenkov's Valhallans are all about: perseverance. Perseverance being able to keep up with or even beat training and equipment. That is way closer to the core idea of the Imperial Guard than Cadians, as the training and equipment areas are obviously dominated by the Space Marines.

Buttons wrote:lexicanum states

Lexicanum states a lot.

Anyhow, here's my list:

Imperial Guard: I'm with nomotog on this one. Making them elite would ruin them for me.
Chaos: Stealing the "sex" from Slaanesh. It's part of his/her portfolio dammit! Give the miniatures a PG rating if you have to but don't trash the 80s punk fluff.
Space Marines: Making them too perfect, too independent, too special snowflake, too successful in battle. For some Chapters, this is already the case. Fortunately not for all.
SoB: Giving them magical abilities or inflating their numbers. The current rarity as well as the ambiguity of their faith abilities works just right for me.
Tau: Like Harriticus. Morally grey is much better than having them pure white (too good) or black (evil)

Necrons - too late- been done already.
Grey Knights - ditto


Orks- Make them unrandom and unfun. The random, wacky yet mindlessly violent fluff is one of the big draws for me.

Dark Eldar- Make them goody goodies who live to serve the Emperor..

SM- Make the Ultramarines the ONLY ones that get any coverage.. oh wait

Lynata wrote:SoB: Giving them magical abilities or inflating their numbers. The current rarity as well as the ambiguity of their faith abilities works just right for me.

About the rarity thing, I think the SM fluff handles this well: chapters of 1000 but who knows how many chapters? With Sisters, the same thing is accomplished with the Lesser Orders Militant. I'd say an order of Sisters to be much "rarer" than Guardsmen (no unified forces of millions of them as with a Guard army) but many, many more than Space Marines.

Sisters of Battle: Have them trade in power armor for high heels and skin tight leather outfits and the like 'cause that is how to sell more models the Ecclesiastes roll now.

Manchu wrote:but many, many more than Space Marines.

Then they'd show up more often than Space Marines, wouldn't they?

On that note, I approve of GW's decision to re-print the force disposition charts from Armageddon 3 and the 13th Black Crusade in the rulebook. Now everyone can see how many Sisters were fighting there compared to the number of Astartes and Guard.

Kris Knives wrote:Sisters of Battle: Have them trade in power armor for high heels and skin tight leather outfits and the like 'cause that is how to sell more models the Ecclesiastes roll now.

Ugh! I forgot, add the high heels to my list as well. Thankfully this seems to be limited to Blanche's art so far...

Lynata wrote:Ugh! I forgot, add the high heels to my list as well. Thankfully this seems to be limited to Blanche's art so far...

TBF, even primarchs wear high heels according to John Blanche.

Manchu wrote:TBF, even primarchs wear high heels according to John Blanche.

I need to see those pictures.

*wolf whistle*

Oh my, he's looking fabulous!

Jaghatai unfashionable? In-KHAN-ceivable!

Make the Eldar somehow less psychically potent than the other races.

Giving the White Scars Dreadnaughts in official Fluff. I mean, how stupid can you BE to do that? I mean they wouldnt even have the armor on hand give it the the fallen hero. Thank the Emperor no one did that

They could ruin the Alpha Legion fluff, by changing it.

They could ruin orks by having there be a greater intelligence behind the scenes pulling their strings, perhaps the last Old One. I doubt it'll happen, but in most fantasy settings the orcs are working for someone, whether they are Sauron's loyal subjects doing his bidding, or just pawns in the demonic assault on Azeroth.

If the Imperial Guard was stated to pretty much only win with Space Marine assistance, that would ruin their fluff for me.

Bludbaff wrote:They could ruin orks by having there be a greater intelligence behind the scenes pulling their strings, perhaps the last Old One. I doubt it'll happen, but in most fantasy settings the orcs are working for someone, whether they are Sauron's loyal subjects doing his bidding, or just pawns in the demonic assault on Azeroth.

I don't think that would be bad, if it stayed nice and orky. Like if Grots were initially the last remaining old ones and tried to control the orks, but failed and ended up becoming slaves to the orks. After thousands of years of abuse, they forgot what they once were and accept their lot in life.

I think the guard should stay the way they are in the fluff.
I don't want them to become more elite but they would be totally ruined for me if they are portrayed as more incompetent and useless without marine support.

I think they currently have a good balence with some regiments having the abiliy to be considered elite and others winning through huge numbers and overwhelming firepower.. all the good stuff..

Zylor wrote:The Eldar stumbling upon their intact Empire, which they had actually just misplaced.

lol.

Anyways, the guard fluff is ruined by the guard looking more elite. The more regular guardsmen become like stormtroopers (or, emperor forbid, marines), the more their fluff is ruined. Anything that references guard arriving quickly to a scene, or doing anything whatever involving precision wrecks it. One of the reasons I really don't care for valkyries, fluffwise.

To me, the fluffy soul of the Imperial Guard comes from page 7 of the current guard codex: "That sufficient troops arrive at a crisis point is only because of the sheer mass of troops and vehicles deployed by the Departmento Munitorum in the first place".

As for how to wreck orks, one word: metachloriens.

Having a repeat of Sanguinius' mutation within the Blood Angels

redkommando wrote:Having a repeat of Sanguinius' mutation within the Blood Angels

What, like in the Blood Angels Omnibus?

And back OT, as much as I don't like Ultramarines, this Heretical, Traitorous alliance with the Tau might just completely ruin them for me. Not Ultramarines in specific, but SM in general I mean. As much as I would like some fluff to back up the SM/Tau Battle Brothers thing, that fluff would probably ruin SM for me.

DMajiko wrote:

redkommando wrote:Having a repeat of Sanguinius' mutation within the Blood Angels

What, like in the Blood Angels Omnibus?

But that was chaos influence of a corrupted inquisitor, so it doesn't count

For the Blood Angels, I fear two things:

1) More examples of ignoring the effects of the Black Rage. Mephiston is cool as a unique one-off, and is very special both on and off the battlefield for it. Lemartes, though... his fluff just doesn't sit right with me. If there were any more I'd have to take a long hard look at my regular Death Company and wonder if they just needed to man up a little.
2) Anything that leans more towards Fantasy's Vampires style-wise. I was worried about the way Astorath turned out looking, but luckily it looks to have stopped with him so far.

And on another note... one of the cooler parts of Blood Angel fluff I was disappointed to see missing from the latest Codex. Their ages-old quest for revenge on the Black Legion. This was mentioned a few times in 2nd and 3rd edition but now, it's like it never happened. Their Primarch killed our Primarch and (indirectly) caused our one major flaw, for crying out loud!

Tyranids: Multiple seperate have minds like the zerg...

Chaos: Making them a broken faction of renegades and space pirates... wait... damn

Necrons: They stop writing fluff about the C'tan having an influence on the galaxy (The Deciever was one of my favorite characters in 40k)

Corax never cried, he had piece of Istvaan in the eye....

Having our Primarch fall to Chaos because of a talking sword, how silly does that sound ... oh, wait ..

For the Templars they would be ruined if they were rolled into the Codex Space Marines and were forced to be stuck with bolters...damn bolters....

Pilau Rice wrote:Having our Primarch fall to Chaos because of a talking sword, how silly does that sound ... oh, wait ..

Well the One ring corrupting Isildur didn’t sound too silly in my ears. Me thinks Graham tried to do the same with Fulgrim.

Judging by the fluff in the back of the new rule book, the Chaos fluff seems to be largely unchanged, I'd be really surprised if they get screwed up (fluff-wise at least).

DE aren't going to get re-written for another decade at least, so they'll be in a good place for a while

My only fear is for Eldar, and it's not a problem with their book so much as its an issue with the Imperial books/dex's. The Eldar always used to be (and should always be IMO) the greatest psykers bar none (I might let the Emperor off, but no one else). In their constant attempt to keep making Marines look super cool they are inflating some characters psychic powers to a level that makes then totally eclipse the Eldar, And that takes away from their special-nuss in my eyes.

Buttons wrote:So, I was posting on a largely unrelated thread and mentioned that I couldn't think of how a writer could truly ruin the fluff behind the Imperial Guard. Make them incompetent? Hell 80% of the Guard is already portrayed that way. Make them the best individual soldiers in the galaxy? The other 20% are already like that (Cadians are just below marines, Catachans are the best jungle fighters etc.)

Anyway, what changes to the fluff of your faction could you think of that would ruin it for you?

Make the guard walking rambos.

Turn the eldar into spazz marienz hurr!

Redcruisair wrote:

Pilau Rice wrote:Having our Primarch fall to Chaos because of a talking sword, how silly does that sound ... oh, wait ..

Well the One ring corrupting Isildur didn’t sound too silly in my ears. Me thinks Graham tried to do the same with Fulgrim.

And failed.

Gorechild wrote:My only fear is for Eldar, and it's not a problem with their book so much as its an issue with the Imperial books/dex's. The Eldar always used to be (and should always be IMO) the greatest psykers bar none (I might let the Emperor off, but no one else). In their constant attempt to keep making Marines look super cool they are inflating some characters psychic powers to a level that makes then totally eclipse the Eldar, And that takes away from their special-nuss in my eyes.

Right here, I agree with all of this.

I also think Necrons got ruined. I was drawn into 40k because of the mindless, merciless soulless that the oldcrons were. No alliances, no honour no emotions, just the slaying of every living thing in the galaxy.

I used to like necrons;

Aaaaaaand it's gone.

There are many dynasties that are still mindless, soulless Necrons. All of the Dynasties lead by Destroyer Lords are exactly this, and are entirely in keeping with the Oldcrons.

... until the new Destroyer Lord models are released at least.

Well, to change Destroyer Lord fluff, they'd need to go back and change their entry in the current Necron Codex, too, not just release some models.

Even other Necrons find the Destroyers freakin' scary.

Super Ready wrote:For the Blood Angels, I fear two things:

1) More examples of ignoring the effects of the Black Rage. Mephiston is cool as a unique one-off, and is very special both on and off the battlefield for it. Lemartes, though... his fluff just doesn't sit right with me. If there were any more I'd have to take a long hard look at my regular Death Company and wonder if they just needed to man up a little.
2) Anything that leans more towards Fantasy's Vampires style-wise. I was worried about the way Astorath turned out looking, but luckily it looks to have stopped with him so far.

And on another note... one of the cooler parts of Blood Angel fluff I was disappointed to see missing from the latest Codex. Their ages-old quest for revenge on the Black Legion. This was mentioned a few times in 2nd and 3rd edition but now, it's like it never happened. Their Primarch killed our Primarch and (indirectly) caused our one major flaw, for crying out loud!

I couldn't agree more, it was kind of disheartening to see that was missing the the codex.
And in the older codexs, Lemates wasn't afflicted by the Black Rage was he?
And Astrorath is too fantasy like, I mean my best mate uses the model for his Vampire Lord

Describing Chaos Space Marines as a broken faction of pirates and raiders that aren't actually much more experienced or superior to regular Space Marines.

Waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaait a second....

The 2 lost SM Primarchs show up, turn out to be women and want to unite the galaxy with hugs

The Emperor reincarnates as a woman.

Might make a better go of it, that way. Emperor MK 1 was a sucky parent

Ascalam wrote:The Emperor reincarnates as a woman.

Might make a better go of it, that way. Emperor MK 1 was a sucky parent

Some motherly instincts should help a bit.

LoneLictor wrote:Describing Chaos Space Marines as a broken faction of pirates and raiders that aren't actually much more experienced or superior to regular Space Marines.

Waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaait a second....

Not sure which side you are supporting?

Buttons wrote:

LoneLictor wrote:Describing Chaos Space Marines as a broken faction of pirates and raiders that aren't actually much more experienced or superior to regular Space Marines.

Waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaait a second....

Not sure which side you are supporting?

I am saying that Chaos Space Marines were pretty fethed up fluff wise as a faction.

Space Marines: 10 feet tall
Female Space Marines: 12 feet tall
Chaos Space Marines: 14 feet tall
Grey Knights: 16 feet tall
Chaos Grey Knights: 17 feet tall
Female Chaos Grey Knights: 20 feet tall
That seems about right...

purplefood wrote:Space Marines: 10 feet tall
Female Space Marines: 12 feet tall
Chaos Space Marines: 14 feet tall
Grey Knights: 16 feet tall
Chaos Grey Knights: 17 feet tall
Female Chaos Grey Knights: 20 feet tall
That seems about right...

Primarch: 24 feet tall
Female Primarch: 28 feet tall
Chaos Primarch: 30 feet tall
Female Chaos Primarch: 34 feet tall
Emperor: 40 feet tall
Female Emperor (wouldn't that be Empress?): 45 feet tall
Chaos Emperor: 50 feet tall
Female Chaos Empress: 60 feet tall.

Buttons wrote:

purplefood wrote:Space Marines: 10 feet tall
Female Space Marines: 12 feet tall
Chaos Space Marines: 14 feet tall
Grey Knights: 16 feet tall
Chaos Grey Knights: 17 feet tall
Female Chaos Grey Knights: 20 feet tall
That seems about right...

Primarch: 24 feet tall
Female Primarch: 28 feet tall
Chaos Primarch: 30 feet tall
Female Chaos Primarch: 34 feet tall
Emperor: 40 feet tall
Female Emperor (wouldn't that be Empress?): 45 feet tall
Chaos Emperor: 50 feet tall
Female Chaos Empress: 60 feet tall.

Squat Chaos Empress: Titan high

You broke my joke...

purplefood wrote:You broke my joke...

Mission accomplished, my job is done here.



Back on topic, IG is my favorite faction, and its kinda hard to screw it up. That said just do this

I'm gonna go a little all-out on this one - how to make it better and worse (imho/ymmv)!

Black Templar
Why they're cool: They're a bunch of hardcore puritan zealots.
Better: I dunno, they're pretty awesome as they are.
Worse: Turn them into hypocrites. I can actually see this happening if someone with an anti-religion bias takes over the fluff-writing, but imho the Black Templar are meant to be single-mindedly adherents to their faith.

Blood Angels
Why they're cool: Sanguinius was pretty badass admittedly, and their emphasis on assault and speed is cool.
Better: Imho, the Blood Angels need a bit more character. Maybe some sort of divide in the chapter and/or successors regarding those who suffer from the Black Rage - some defend them whereas others believe they should be executed immediately. Not sure what I really think about that, but it's an idea anyway (and would open up some new list-making opportunities).
Worse: Play up the "flawless" aspects of the Blood Angels, making them a bunch of even more androgynous pretty boys who are super-special at everything. Start calling every piece of equipment "Blood _____" or "_____ of Blood", etc.

Chaos Daemons
Why they're cool: They're freaking extra-dimensional horrors!
Better: As it is, they don't really seem like that much of a threat to be honest. "Oh no, daemons might attack this world temporarily!" They need some more suitably grim-dark menace to make them seem like a real and terrifying threat (especially considering they are probably the most evil race in the entire game). They should be able to arrive from enemy psykers who suffer a perils of the warp attack (or make it an option instead of a normal perils attack).
Worse: Turn them into cartoonishly evil, mindless monsters.

Chaos Space Marines
Why they're cool: They're Space Marines, only with lots of cool evil toys.
Better: The Legions need to have their flaws played up as if 40k were a Shakespearean tragedy (eg, Thousand Sons need to be more inherently arrogant), and they need to be more of a terrifying foe (eg, successful Black Crusades).
Worse: Make them super-mopey, prone to incessant in-fighting and lose constantly.

Dark Angels
Why they're cool: They... uh... get lots of Terminators. That's cool. Heck, the Fallen are cooler than the Dark Angels themselves.
Better: They need some more differentiating. Not entirely sure how that should be done...
Worse: ...but if they play up the "Lion" angle, that would be the wrong way to do it. Also, making them justifiably arrogant would be dumb.

Dark Eldar
Why they're cool: They're sadistic, manipulative S&M space elves... that sounds really stupid, but it's awesome in execution.
Better: Hard to say. Personally, I think that Dark Eldar have great fluff currently. I'd maybe play up their mercenary aspects and make their raids seem more threatening, but as they stand they're pretty awesome.
Worse: Turn Dark Eldar into a bunch of moustache-twirling, cackling cartoon villains.

Eldar
Why they're cool: They're psychically powered space elves with a cool caste-like system.
Better: They've been nerfed, fluff-wise. Avatars are a joke, Craftworlds get destroyed every weekend and Farseers are not much more than a plot-device to make bad things happen to the interloping human characters. They need to get back their technological and psychic dominance from humanity (Necrons are justifiably more advanced), whilst playing up their dying race aspect in the process.
Worse: Make it so that they aren't going to die out inevitably. Also, continuing to nerf them in the fluff to the point of obsolescence.

Grey Knights
Why they're cool: They're the elitest of the elite in humanity's armies.
Better: They got pretty derpy in their last Codex... the Grey Knights themselves need to become more rare, acting as tools of Inquisitors. Making them like a super-special Space Marine chapter gets rid of a lot of their mysterious essence.
Worse: Make them all live in the warp with Draigo and launch attacks on the daemons while inside their warp-fortress... Or, at the very least, make all their fluff as cringe-inducing as the 2 pages about Draigo.

Imperial Guard
Why they're cool: They're the expendables, backed up by huge guns.
Better: Guard have pretty awesome fluff as it is. Commanders could perhaps be a bit more colourful though.
Worse: Make them incompetent to the point of redundancy perhaps? I really don't know how you could screw up the Guard.

Necrons
Why they're cool: Space Terminator-mummies.
Better: I personally like their new fluff (before they were just Tyranids with armour plating), but it is far too cartoonish and they lost a lot of their old menace. Maybe get rid of some of the silly aspects of the new Necrons (that map that can blow up solar systems, all of Imhotek's dialogue, Flayed One plague, etc), and make them more evil. Easiest way to do this - make them jealous of the races with flesh-and-blood bodies and/or harvest people for the C'tan again. Retain the new personality of the Necrons though.
Worse: Go back to the old fluff. Yay for flavourless Tyranid rip-off robots.

Orks
Why they're cool: They're hilarious warmongering aliens.
Better: They're already awesome.
Worse: Ditch their humour entirely. That would be crippling. To knock them down even more, make it so they will ally with any race willingly and happily.

Sisters of Battle
Why they're cool: They're nuns with guns!
Better: Sisters revolve entirely around their faith. I'd play up the "Chaos Sisters" element a bit more, but mostly to remind people that it is technically possible (not to make it a common occurrence in the fluff or anything like that).
Worse: See Black Templar entry.

Space Marines
Why they're cool: They're the easy middle-ground army.
Better: Ultramarines are so bland that it hurts. As the poster-boys, they get all of the adaptations as well (the Ultramarines movie, Space Marine game, etc). In my opinion, the blandness of the Ultramarines hurts these products - they're so inherently generic that they reflect poorly on the fantastic 40k universe itself. Ultramarines need some flavour severely. Bring back Tyrannic War Veterans, make their dogmatic adherence to the Codex more explicit (and with greater consequence) in the fluff, make them force the Codex Astartes onto other chapters (opening up Marine on Marine conflict of interest), etc. Anything is better than "boring".
Worse: Make every Space Marine wish they were boring like the Ultramarines.

Space Wolves
Why they're cool: Freaking space-viking-werewolves. That's ing awesome.
Better: Take them back to their viking roots and play up individual heroism/sagas, whilst balancing the werewolf aspect without making it overbearing. Change Canis Wolfborn's name so that people will finally shut up about Wolfy McWolferson bull when they make fun of the Wolves. And make the 13th company more present in the fluff.
Worse: Take some of the stupid bits of fluff (like boarding a void whale and blowing it up) and making all of it like that. Making Wolfy McWolferson the Thunderwolf Rider an actual character.

Tau Empire
Why they're cool: They're a young race with technological superiority.
Better: Honestly, I think the Tau would be better with the rumours of genocide/sterilization.
Worse: Make the manga aspects more explicit by drawing inspiration from more sources. Super Sayan Ethereals anyone?

Tyranids
Why they're cool: They're a swarm of bugs destined to consume everyone.
Better: Personally I don't have a problem with Cruddace's additions to the Nid fluff (burning out from lack of food), as it makes them less over-powered than they previously were. But you know how to make the 40k universe even more frightening? Go with the theories - actually suggest that the Hive Fleets are running away from something... something big.
Worse: Give the Tyranids an actual weakness. Sure it makes them less retardedly overpowered, but it doesn't fit with a grimdark universe.

How to ruin the Tau

Step 1: Ethereals are a manufactured puppet race controlled by the Eldar.
Step 2: everything awesome Farsight did was because the sword has tainted him and linked him to Chaos.
Step 3: Add more useless subjugated races, while leaving the Tau military a giant 1 trick pony (rail gunz!)

I always thought of Farsight's blade as either Necron or Old One tech, not anything chaos

If they cut the size of the Black Templars from 5-6 thousand templars to codex chapter size. That...would be one of the worst things they could do. Oh and give them a home world...that would be horrible too.

This thread is making me wonder: what could they change without ruining the factions?

CrashCanuck wrote:The 2 lost SM Primarchs show up, turn out to be women and want to unite the galaxy with hugs

Second time I've used this today!

Manchu wrote:This thread is making me wonder: what could they change without ruining the factions?

They could add things that exist in the background already for example.

To ruin SoB: make then half-naked anime gun-slinger girls
To change SoB without ruining them: allow them to "win" without being slain in the process. More emphasis on the civil ordos. etc

To ruin DA: take the deathwing and ravenwing off of them
To change DA without ruining them: more emphasis on older tech as they are the 1st Legion. Maybe special ammo throughout the codex to grant the 'most shootiest' as their new spot in the group of astartes.

To ruin the Tau: jump out of the woodworks with a new SC called Aun St 'a 'lin.
To change the Tau without ruining them: make them the pool of less known xenos and grant us small releases of what could become a line of its own.

To ruin the IG: take their vehicles off of it.
To change the IG without ruining them: replace this "regiment" idea of organization with something believable. Like in 3rd, where it was possible to 'select' the units for a 'in-universe campaign' from squad up to Army-group.

When you say change, you really mean "the same but more" right?

The same theme but added to.
Wouldn't consider a U-turn as a positive change, as the feelings of the fanbase about changes are as easy to alter as the course of a WW1 battleship formation.

So honestly its how far the change goes. Slow and steady could keep most people 'on board' IMO.

That's quite a vivid and accurate image you used.

1hadhq wrote:
To change the IG without ruining them: replace this "regiment" idea of organization with something believable. Like in 3rd, where it was possible to 'select' the units for a 'in-universe campaign' from squad up to Army-group.

What? The IG has always had higher level formations than regiments, they were simply more flexible, less like modern divisions, and more like an Army Group.

I think that Necron fluff has already been nerfed... Liked how they killed the C'tan, however giving them personality just ruined them for me...

To ruin the Tau, I think make them more evil... I think that esp given that the Imperium is defs not the good guys, that the Tau at the very least should occupy the position of Good fellas.

Generally, I just hate any retconning...

Imperial Guard: They are not a fighting force in their own right. They are just support for the space marines.

Space Marines: The space marines are the Imperium's primary fighting force. They do everything. No PDF, no Imperial navy.

Tyranids: They were sent here by a wise race who created them. This wise race judged the galaxy to be too violent and in need of a purge so peace can reign.

Necrons: The necrons are really warm-hearted humanists who are malicious now because of the time that has passed in the Great Sleep. The powerful overlords work now to restore the compassion in the hearts of the necron race.

Chaos space marines: They are all unkillable. Every chaos space marine who dies is brought back to life by the chaos gods.

Eldar: eldar-human hybrids become a prominent part of their population.

Dark Eldar: The dark eldar are really pawns of chaos

Orks: their violent behavior is due to a supernatural curse that some malicious god (Khaine, C'tan or a chaos god) put on their race, and they were a magnificent, wise race prior to that.

Tau: The ethereals are really pawns of chaos (sigh)

Manchu wrote:If Sisters were shown to be somehow genetically or magically enhanced, that would ruin them.

What about acts of divinity aren't magical?

Acts of Faith.

They're not sorcery. They're not Psychic. They're not active all the time.

CuddlySquig wrote:Imperial Guard: They are not a fighting force in their own right. They are just support for the space marines.

Space Marines: The space marines are the Imperium's primary fighting force. They do everything. No PDF, no Imperial navy.

Tyranids: They were sent here by a wise race who created them. This wise race judged the galaxy to be too violent and in need of a purge so peace can reign.

Necrons: The necrons are really warm-hearted humanists who are malicious now because of the time that has passed in the Great Sleep. The powerful overlords work now to restore the compassion in the hearts of the necron race.

Chaos space marines: They are all unkillable. Every chaos space marine who dies is brought back to life by the chaos gods.

Eldar: eldar-human hybrids become a prominent part of their population.

Dark Eldar: The dark eldar are really pawns of chaos

Orks: their violent behavior is due to a supernatural curse that some malicious god (Khaine, C'tan or a chaos god) put on their race, and they were a magnificent, wise race prior to that.

Tau: The ethereals are really pawns of chaos (sigh)

Guard are support for the marines? lolnope.jpeg

Lexicanum, first sentence, "The Imperial Guard is the primary fighting force of the Imperium."

wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Imperial_Guard

Space Marines can't do the amount Guard can do in a day.

You didn't read the other posts, did you?

They are discussing how to change the fluff to ruin the factions in question, not discussing the actual fluff as is

Ascalam wrote:You didn't read the other posts, did you?

They are discussing how to change the fluff to ruin the factions in question, not discussing the actual fluff as is

Ohhh my bad. Late last night. Read it wrong hahaha. Sorry.

Bran Dawri wrote:Space Wolves: Take the name literally and make them werewolves in space, instead of Vikings in space. Oh wait. That already happened. Well, partly anyway. I still like bits of their current fluff.

Eldar: Take away their shtick as technologically most advanced, knowledgeable, arrogant hyper-psychic, dying race. Oh wait, that also already happened. (Well, except for the dying bit.)

Yep, GW is doing a pretty good job of killing my interest in their background.

My thoughts exactly.

Tau use techonogy as IoM

Pada wrote:Tau use techonogy as IoM

Yeah it would kill me if the IoM started using technology as gakky as the Tau's.

Unit1126PLL wrote:

Pada wrote:Tau use techonogy as IoM

Yeah it would kill me if the IoM started using technology as gakky as the Tau's.

Please at least try to keep it civil.

Letting Matt Ward ANY WHERE near fluff for... anything to be honest but specifically the Sisters of Battle, armor paint my Irish

Psienesis wrote:Acts of Faith.

They're not sorcery. They're not Psychic. They're not active all the time.

Wait, what? If they aren't being powered by the Warp, then where do they come from?

Da Waaagh field, export version

Nave Senrag wrote:

Psienesis wrote:Acts of Faith.

They're not sorcery. They're not Psychic. They're not active all the time.

Wait, what? If they aren't being powered by the Warp, then where do they come from?

Righteous zeal and unbreakable faith in the God-Emperor of Mankind.

Outside of that? We're not told.

Can't ruin orks. Everything about them is hilarious, awesome or both.

Well Necrons have already been ruined, truth be told I waited for their codex to come out before I bought them....wisest decision I have made yet. They could have made it better imo if some Necron lords split but C'Tan were still at full power.

Dark Angels
Ruin the fluff: No more hunting the fallen, them finding 'redemption'
Make it better: They believe one of the first founding chapters is harboring a Fallen (dun dun duuuun)

Blood Angels:
Ruin the fluff: They find a cure for their flaw
Make it better: Have the inquisition find out, it would lead to a damn interesting scenario with Blood Angels trying to just stay alive.

As a note, both of the above improvements would make the galaxy that much more grimdark.

IG
Ruin The Fluff: Space Marines are better for every battle.
Make it better: List a battle or two that Imperial Guard save Space Marines (lets face it, a heavily fortified world that is prepared against SM will hold against SM, wherein the guard can just turn the planet into a meatgrinder and win over time)

Wardragoon wrote:
Blood Angels:
Ruin the fluff: They find a cure for their flaw
Make it better: Have the inquisition find out, it would lead to a damn interesting scenario with Blood Angels trying to just stay alive.

fir the fist : say bb to seperate codex :(
the second is very interesting maybe beter will be that some inquisitiors believes them heretics and some not.

Wardragoon wrote:

IG
Ruin The Fluff: Space Marines are better for every battle.

Isn't this already true?

TheHarleqwin wrote:Can't ruin orks. Everything about them is hilarious, awesome or both.

Not even female orks?

Lynata wrote:

Manchu wrote:but many, many more than Space Marines.

Then they'd show up more often than Space Marines, wouldn't they?

Not sure that's true - it depends on which wars 40k battles are looking at.

There are probably tons of Sisters - there is a chapel on every Imperial World and anything important would have a small amount of Sisters defending it - but then their main remit is to guard the Ecclesiarchy and go on Wars of Faith. Just because there are lots of them doesn't mean we'd 'see' them more often.

There are certainly tons more Adeptus Arbites than Marines (and probably Sisters too), but because they're less involved in wars than Marines and IG, we see them much less.

Necrosis wrote:

TheHarleqwin wrote:Can't ruin orks. Everything about them is hilarious, awesome or both.

Not even female orks?

Sounds smexy.......

Necrosis wrote:

TheHarleqwin wrote:Can't ruin orks. Everything about them is hilarious, awesome or both.

Not even female orks?

Instead of fighting they randomly show up on the battlefield to encourage the weaker gits to crump slightly better.

n0t_u wrote:

Necrosis wrote:

TheHarleqwin wrote:Can't ruin orks. Everything about them is hilarious, awesome or both.

Not even female orks?

Instead of fighting they randomly show up on the battlefield to encourage the weaker gits to crump slightly better.

Dear God that is... sexy.

Tyranids are actually on the run from another race, and Hive fleet Leviathan is the last of the race. After all, no one explicitly said they were without number... right?

Tau

How to ruin:
1-Make them super grimdark. Their position as possible white knights is what makes them unique and helps to make the 40K enviroment seem even more bleak.
2-Make them a protectorate of the Imperium
3-Make them into Xenos IG
4-Make them into Xenos Assault Marines
5-Re-write their entire backstory to fit some ignorant video game designers idea of them being concertration camp running monsters that sterilize subjugated races.
(Fundamental to the design of the Tau is small rapidly expanding empire whose populace is short lived, They don't have the Time to waste on such nonsense. This is Also thought as why the Tu do not use lots of Blast weapons, They want to colonize a world quickly not have to spend 2-4 generations cleaning the place up first.)
6-Let the Fluff-Killer anywhere near the Tau backstory.

How to Improve:
1-Get rid of the stupid pheremone fluff that showed up in this 'dex. Leave how the ethereals exert control a nebulous mystery that players can debate/argue.
2-Bring Back Aun'shi
3-Give the Tau official Alien Special Characters with real back stories
4-Alien Auxilla HQ with back story that expands what we know about their role in the empire
5-Re-design the Vespids to fit their fluff.
6-Prominently stress that the Tau are originally from an arid planet and are not aquatic in any manner except for them having a water caste.
7-Write the codex from the Tau pov. This could include a re-work the naming conventions of the Tau vehicles and flyers(Both GW and FW) to where they are consistant between vehicle types.


Eldar

Ruin:
1-continue the every edition nerfing and backstory editing
2-make them into Dark Eldar but with angst
3-Make them more angsty
4-Continue to expand the Dying Race
5-Change the back story yet again as to why they are dying off
6-Base Psychic mastery level 0-1 for the oldest, most potent and most skilled psykers in the universe.
7-Add even more Aspects that won't be used.

Improve:
1-The two influnces for the Eldar were Celtic Faeries(Riders of the Sidhe) and Asian Warrior Monks. The writers should delve deeper into this concept.
2-Pick a backstory and stick to it.
3-Do more than pay passing lip service to the Craftworlds.
4-Maybe make the Aspect warriors live up to their backstory
5-Bring back Prince Nadhua
6-Give Iryanna rules and her Wraithseer
7-Write about what day to day life on a craftworld is like. Why to citizens become guardians? Conscripton or choice?
8-Eldar have above human abilities in agility, speed and dexterity. They live many times longer than the average human and at least twice as long as the average SM. They train as if it were their religion. The writters should remember this when assigning the Eldar units their base abilities.

Making orks an elite force, making tau into a bunch of psykers, or turning tda into a semi rare piece of armor

Black Templars would be messed up if their vows were actually explained to be caused by innate psychic energies they had, instead of pure RAEG. Also if there were said to follow the Codex Astartes, or prefer using artillery, tanks and long range weapons instead of swords .etc. or if they became the Inquisition's tool, rather than going and purging at will.

If they never lose.

period.



Doesn't matter what faction.
If they never lose. It gets old really fast.

Engine of War wrote:If they never lose.

period.



Doesn't matter what faction.
If they never lose. It gets old really fast.

Welcome to Grey Knights.

Give Matt Ward a pen and paper.

Grey knights, blood angels, Ultramarines, Space Marines and (though I prefer the new fluff) Tomb Kings In SPAAAAAAACCCEE, also known as necrons.

Necrons were better but for the necron players it was too different to the old fluff. To put it like Airbourne, It was Too much, too young, too fast.

Tomj8937 wrote:Give Matt Ward a pen and paper.

Grey knights, blood angels, Ultramarines, Space Marines and (though I prefer the new fluff) Tomb Kings In SPAAAAAAACCCEE, also known as necrons.

Necrons were better but for the necron players it was too different to the old fluff. To put it like Airbourne, It was Too much, too young, too fast.

Hahaha, can't agree more, not even Dan Abnett can get them to look anything less like Marty Stues. Damn they are ulcer-inducing, nothing else.

And never mind Ward's hatred of the SoB... praise the Goddess he didn't get his greasy palms on the White Dwarf update, or the girls might have ended up as armor paint for Khorna... I mean Gray Knights again.

Take the average 1000 Sons Rubric Marine from a tortured soul trapped inside a suit of armor (which is incredibly heavy metal and awesome) and make them able to talk/angst/etc, magically rebuild their legion numbers despite the massive drubbings the Wolves have handed out to them, dedicate the Legion to Khorne....


Give any faction plot armor to the point of it being worthless to read an BL books or fluff about them. Heroics and courage are easy when victory's assured.

Engine of War wrote:If they never lose.

period.



Doesn't matter what faction.
If they never lose. It gets old really fast.

You mean other factions could be as awesome as orks?

lol

Nothing can be as awesome as orks. The writers heads would explode if they ever tried that.

by making ig happy go lucky there life blows and it fits with the dark vibe of the Empire that you are a cog and as a person you dont matter. To make them all eliet or make mass death on the battlefield go away just is not guard. You shuld alaways be a little depresed when you readabout them

Chaos: let them actually win a meaningful victory. It would totally ruin the ineffectual Saturday morning villain vibe GW's spent years building up.

Though if they wanted to alter Chaos a bit, they could have soldiers representing other aspects of the gods appear, like elite, honourable warriors of Khorne and massively skilled, almost perfect fighters for Slaanesh... just give them a few Grey Knights each actually.