Just this once let's say screw cannon and vote on which way Tau players would like Ethereals to maintain control of the Tau Empire. Choose the option you would pick if you could write the next codex.

If I was writing it, I'd leave it hinted that it was pheromone control. I wouldn't make it explicit

I don't particularly want Pheromones or Psychic control, it would ruin them a little for me. Hinting is fine though, or if it's just something to keep them calm (which i think is what it currently is, not sure)

I have been of the opinion that is is largely spiritual, but that pheremones offer even greater control. Think of it like this, if an Ethereal was talking to you over a radio or whatever and wanted you to run into a machinegun nest to distract them (we assume he is a sadist or stupid) you would probably subtly refuse and suggest a different course of action. If the Ethereal was right in front of you the pheromones would make you instinctively obey the order regardless of what it was.

The Deathwatch rule book calls the pheromone thing a hoax, but only time will tell if the dew codex follows suit.

My opinion (formed from my interpretation of Xenology) is that the Eldar created the Ethereals, and the pheromone control allowed initial control with years of indoctrination doing the rest.

Now whether the Eldar retain control over the Ethereals or even maintain contact with them? Who knows...

Pheremones combined with ingrained sociological/psychological control.

I just find it odd how passionate I am about this. I would literally sell my army and never play Tau again if the pheromone theory proved true. And I don't even know why, it would just make them unplayable for me... I think maybe it is best it be left unspecified, it seems like GWs best option.

Charisma, supported by the social structure of Tau society.

@Melissa-Nah, its their Spirituality/Faith in the greater good.

The belief in an Ideal rather than an individual is what makes them unique and IMO superior to SOB. Sisters get small miracles on the battlefield, the Tau get Guadian Warp Storms and perfectly timed Tyranid invasions

Seriously, I vote for their faith in the greater good. I find the thought of such thourough indoctrination much more GrimDark and befitting of the setting than the lame pheremone thing. To me its the difference between Orwellian Horror and Bradury Sci-fi.

@Captain Avatar

I could not agree more. The whole Japan/Brave New World combo is what had me hooked on them. I absolutely love the concept.

Yep, I think their faith in the Greater Good is waht's keeping them in line, being a young race and not having time to see just how hopeless the galaxy really is.

Kroothawk wrote:Charisma, supported by the social structure of Tau society.

This for me, too.

I guess "spirituality" is the closest thing to that answer, so I voted for that, even though it doesn't fit 100%.

Maybe it was the whole "communism" trait that the community (controversially) attributed to them, complete with those fan-made propaganda posters, but this is indeed how I got to view them eventually. Little blue Space Soviets convinced of their way of life and with utter faith in their "party" leaders, ready to sacrifice themselves or do bad stuff in the name of a greater good, perhaps reluctantly, yet in the end driven by an almost Imperial pragmatism.

FR33Kandy wrote:The Deathwatch rule book calls the pheromone thing a hoax, but only time will tell if the dew codex follows suit.

I don't think the studio material has ever either confirmed nor denied the whole pheromone stuff presented in Xenology in the first place, and I wouldn't expect that to change.
Remember folks, stuff isn't actually meant to be consistent/compatible to each other ... and GW likes to keep things like these pretty vague, at best throwing out suggestions, so that players can decide themselves whether to follow such a theory or not.

Captain Avatar wrote:@Melissa-Nah, its their Spirituality/Faith in the greater good.

Which doesn't explain why those who would have immunity to pheremones (such as suit drivers, whom are protected by the environment of their suits) tend to deviate more.

Melissia wrote:

Captain Avatar wrote:@Melissa-Nah, its their Spirituality/Faith in the greater good.

Which doesn't explain why those who would have immunity to pheremones (such as suit drivers, whom are protected by the environment of their suits) tend to deviate more.

Just on a sidenote, isn't every Tau miniature wearing a suit?

And wouldn't it be somewhat counter-productive of the Tau Empire to develop something that make their people go rogue?

If I'd prefer the whole pheromone idea, I suppose I would explain it with the Empire secretly embedding canisters with it into their troops' equipment to ensure control/complacency in the field. That way, one could explain Farsight by assuming that supply lines had his unit run dry of this "drug" or something. It's slightly more grimdark in implementing a technological aspect into the whole deal, I guess.

Culture, plain and simple. If someone wants to rebel against biopsychological compulsion, they probably can. The trick therefore is to give them no reason to rebel. And if the "force" of culture is that strong then the pheromones aren't necessary in the first place. As a matter of narrative economy, the pheromone idea is kind of dumb unless you explicitly want to make the Tau sinister. Since that was the apparent goal of Xenology, it's no wonder that this pheromone business only appears there.

Charisma and oratory skill combined with brainwashing Tau citizens from birth.

Kroothawk wrote:Charisma, supported by the social structure of Tau society.

I agree completely with Kroothawk, thought i have a feeling they are going to go the phyker route......

Kroothawk wrote:Charisma, supported by the social structure of Tau society.

This, and CA's post as well. Farsight's "rebellion" didn't have anything to do with their Etherial dying, IMO. The etherial may have died BECAUSE of the rebellion, or because of whatever happened to him on Arthas Moloc, but I doubt that "Oops, the Etherial died and everything makes sense now!" was exactly how everything played out. At least from my interpretation.

Actually I wouldn't be terribly upset if Farsight just so happens to have a Mindshackle Scarab imbedded in the base of his skull.

Then again, I also don't believe Tau immediately bow to everything told them, either. I think that disagreements happen, they're just handled calmly and by debate and matters are settled before they escalate.


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Vladamyr wrote:

Kroothawk wrote:Charisma, supported by the social structure of Tau society.

I agree completely with Kroothawk, thought i have a feeling they are going to go the phyker route......

They will if MW writes the book...

Vladamyr wrote:I agree completely with Kroothawk, thought i have a feeling they are going to go the phyker route......

Would this not conflict with their whole "no warp presence" deal?

Ach, please don't bait the War-haters!

Nagashek wrote:

Kroothawk wrote:Charisma, supported by the social structure of Tau society.

This, and CA's post as well. Farsight's "rebellion" didn't have anything to do with their Etherial dying, IMO. The etherial may have died BECAUSE of the rebellion, or because of whatever happened to him on Arthas Moloc, but I doubt that "Oops, the Etherial died and everything makes sense now!" was exactly how everything played out. At least from my interpretation.

Actually I wouldn't be terribly upset if Farsight just so happens to have a Mindshackle Scarab imbedded in the base of his skull.

Then again, I also don't believe Tau immediately bow to everything told them, either. I think that disagreements happen, they're just handled calmly and by debate and matters are settled before they escalate.


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Vladamyr wrote:

Kroothawk wrote:Charisma, supported by the social structure of Tau society.

I agree completely with Kroothawk, thought i have a feeling they are going to go the phyker route......

They will if MW writes the book...

The First part I couldn't agree with more.

The second part is also likely correct, I just don't like evoking the name or even the initials of the "Fluff-Killer"

If I could right the fluff, Tau would control their empire spiritually. Alpha Legion would resurface, and would be close allies of the Tau. The plan of the remaining twin prinarch would be to use the Tau to wipe out the Imperium. The Tau would then begin there next expansion. After all Alpha Legion haters the Imperium and wants to murder all humans to atop the warp, and the Tau have no warp presence so they are the natural predecessors of the humans as far as Alpha Legion is concerned. Besides according to fluff Alpha Legion is in the exact same area of space right now. Of and ultimar would fall, I am tired of smurfs...


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The Taros Campaign book states an Imperial general tried the null soul assassin on an Ethereal and it had no effect...I like this ruling.

What if the aun maintained leadership status by being good leaders?

@nomotog I wish I could like your post...

nomotog wrote:What if the aun maintained leadership status by being good leaders?

That seems to be what most people here believe.

FR33Kandy wrote:@nomotog I wish I could like your post...

You can, thanks to the "Exalt" feature at the lower right of his post.

They control them "mysteriously" and that's good enough for me. The main thing is they do have absolute control over them. They Tau don't follow them "just cuz".

Manchu wrote:

nomotog wrote:What if the aun maintained leadership status by being good leaders?

That seems to be what most people here believe.

FR33Kandy wrote:@nomotog I wish I could like your post...

You can, thanks to the "Exalt" feature at the lower right of his post.

Most people seem to be saying charisma and or social structure. (Well most people seem to just be agreeing with kroot) No one really mentioned things like sound judgment, good planing, insightful knowledge, or having a 18 in wis. That's more what I meant.

I don't think you can strip that out of the social structure. I mean, I don't think the castes have an objective view of the Etherals.

I don't think that GW will go the ethereals=psykers route, on the contrary. I believe that GW goes the Tau=immune-to-Chaos route, making them essential allies to the Imperium in their fight against Chaos (reason behind SM being battle brothers). And I don't think that Mat Ward will write the background of the next Tau Codex. The Necron Codex shows that the whole GW team is writing the Codex, with one person just having the lead. Mat wouldn't have been able to make such a complex redirection of Necron fluff that works.

I also want to point out that "The Greater Good" is not something like the Imperial Faith. It is a principle usually called utilitarianism, basically meaning a.o. that working together is better than killing each other. See my sig for a more detailed description. The lack of Western Individualism is not a sign that tau are mindless robots, but a sign that Tau society is inspired by East Asian society.

I always thought the Pheromones thing was kind of goofy. In the fluff the Ethereals are woven into the Tau history basically at a creation myth level, they are the ones that elevated Tau from savage animals to a co operative society.

I see it more like an Aztec thing. Ethereals are of the same physical form as Tau, but they are a spiritual step above and thus the natural leaders. society takes care of the rest with free thinkers and dissidents, shunning them or making them disappear.

@Kroot: mobile response, so quoting is difficult. I'd prefer a comparison of individualistic vs collectivist comparison to east vs west, although, it certainly is an apt comparison, removing the analogy helps to define the argument.

http://psychology.wikia.com/wiki/Collectivist_and_individualist_cultures

The east asian cultures are certainly inspiration for the Tau, but looking at the kroot as well adds an interesting level of depth to the issue.
Also, while thinking about it, the kroot strongly mirror done aspects of native american cultures, collectivism, woodland ambush tactics, tribal society, and even eating the flesh. A shaper/aun comparison tau kroot comparison would be interesting to explore. Thoughts?

http://m.voices.yahoo.com/cannibalism-among-iroquois-algonquian-5824118.html

I agree that individualistic vs collectivist culture is a fitting alternative expression of what I wanted to say.
The main inspiration for Kroot is the stereotype of the "noble savage".

yes "individualistic vs collectivist culture" is the idea
for etherials i belive that they spiritually guilde the Empire.about that Xenologi wrote it was : 1st from a mad savle of a necron lord and 2nd a posibility. i think that the sacks in their head is to comunicate each other , something like Private messages

Or it could be simply a larger version of our pituitary gland, or a sinus cavity...

I hated the phermone idea the moment I read it in xenology! It ran opposed to my idea of Tau society... I hope that it is simply that they are charismatic and versed leaders, leading a troop through belief in an ideal, spirituality being the closest option in my opinion.

There are no Tau psykers so psychic means are unlikely. Pheromones do not work over great distances and appear to be impractical.
Intense indoctrination aided by the somewhat collectivist nature of the Tau society appears, at least to me, the only logical answer.
The reversal to a more barbaric mindset/ the loss of control once an Etheral is killed off, can be explained as a psychological reaction.

It might be better if it was psychic. That way you can have aun with cool psychic powers and things. Pheromones, bla they really don't bring anything cool with them.

about pheromoes i thought 1 other thing : if they were exist , wouldnt ehteriasl sent 1 other etherial to Farsight and so he would calm down?

Yes Pada, the answer to your question is yes.

nomotog wrote:It might be better if it was psychic. That way you can have aun with cool psychic powers and things. Pheromones, bla they really don't bring anything cool with them.

Do you know anything about the Tau fluff?

If Tau became psychic, it would remove EVERYTHING unique about them, and a lot of people wouldn't instantly stop playing them...

Personally, when the new dex comes out I'll prob start, the fluff is awesome, the models are mostly good etc

OT: I like the whole society thing. They believe in something greater than themselves, it annoys me that everyone says they can't be like that, it's not 'grimdark enough. Humans may not be like it, but Tau aren't humans


Von Chogg

A mix of all of the above.

Ethereals are not from tau homeworld. At least the fluff points that way.

One night Tau look up in the night sky see flash of lights flying in the sky. Next day the first Ethereals show up.

So the question is who or what made them and why?

I would have to say group polarization. When people are in a group with the same thoughts and feelings things tend to get more extreme. So when a bunch of ethereals are in a group with other Tau Caste members this influences them, thus causing them to become more extreme. At least I think

The Ethereals could simply be from an isolated part of thier home world. An island, or valley, or possibly mountain peaks. They could have simply been the wise old elders or a culmination of Tau pacifists seeking refuge. The lights could have been a meteor storm or the warp storms dispersing. The Ethereals could have taken this as a sign that their time has come, as thousands of human societies have believed throughout time. They are too much like the Tau to have evolved independently though. They would have to originate at some point from the Tau world.

A) Cant be psykers... would be the same issue saying necons as psykers
B) No one is 'good' in 40k
C) They smell minty fresh

Steel Angel wrote:Ethereals are not from tau homeworld. At least the fluff points that way.

One night Tau look up in the night sky see flash of lights flying in the sky. Next day the first Ethereals show up.

So the question is who or what made them and why?

The answer to that question is the Eldar.

Ability to created warp storms? Check.

Enjoy manipulating others? Check.

Entire BL publication backing that claim? Check.

I think it's kind of funny that some people think that the pheramone theory would make them quit the Tau and they use the Deathwatch book as defence of their beliefs.

The other side of that coin is people like me... I think the pheramone idea is awesome and the Deathwatch books killed the Deathwatch Chapter for me.

Which publication supports this claim again?

DeffDred wrote:

Steel Angel wrote:Ethereals are not from tau homeworld. At least the fluff points that way.

One night Tau look up in the night sky see flash of lights flying in the sky. Next day the first Ethereals show up.

So the question is who or what made them and why?

The answer to that question is the Eldar.

Ability to created warp storms? Check.

Enjoy manipulating others? Check.

Entire BL publication backing that claim? Check.

I think it's kind of funny that some people think that the pheramone theory would make them quit the Tau and they use the Deathwatch book as defence of their beliefs.

The other side of that coin is people like me... I think the pheramone idea is awesome and the Deathwatch books killed the Deathwatch Chapter for me.

FR33Kandy wrote:Which publication supports this claim again?

No publication specifically states such. Back in 3rd/4th theEldar were much more powerful in the warp/psyker stuff fluff-wise. This led to speculation that Either the Eldar or the Old ones created the Tau.

As GW has added new fluff a case can now be made for many different factions having in some way influenced the Tau developement.

Here are a few speculations that I've heard over the years:

It was the Adeptus Mechanicus, They could have implanted the young Tau with the Artificial Enzymes found in Tau DNA. They could have then tampered with the sensor equipment to create the illusion of a 5000-6000 year warp storm.

It could be a Joke played by Cegorach-The Laughing God

It could all be a part of the Emperors plan. That he forsaw the need and ordered the Adeptus Mechanicus to accelerate the Taus developement.

Maybe the Necrons, They might have realized a future need for tech savvy maintenace slaves, that are also a fast growing food source.

Really, the orks, nids are the only races that don't lend themselves to a Tau creation story.

I might be wrong here, but isn't, "Suffer not the alien to live." a direct quote from the Emperor?

FR33Kandy wrote:I might be wrong here, but isn't, "Suffer not the alien to live." a direct quote from the Emperor?

Yet there are abhuman ratlings and ogryn in the Imperial forces.

If the Emperor is ok with such mixing of the races then maybe he plans on using the Tau to develope the anti-psyker/chaos/warp gene.


Not saying that it makes the best sense, just that with precedent from existing fluff people can create a 40k plausible backstory of how the Emperor created the Tau.
I mean, come on, the most astartes adherent of the SM chaptesr are now Battle buddies with the Tau.

Personally, I do not subcribe to this theory, just that it isn't any less likely than any of the others when you consider the ever changing backstory of the 40k universe.

Yea... Still kind of pissed that every player sees a different universe after reading the rule book... It gets annoying.


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Also atleast ratlings and ogryn bare human dna markers. Tau are their own species.

Well in 40k wikia it says that the tau dont register the warp at all and the only thing they know about the immaniterium is its existence and it is no place for the greater good

I think the Ethereals have a specific type of voice that goes with the pheromones. When you get a single whiff of the pheromones you are susceptible to their voice.

FR33Kandy wrote:Which publication supports this claim again?

Tau Codex 3rd edition.

Xeneology.

3rd is retconed by 4th, this is how fluff works for 40k.

And xeneology as mentioned before is written by a man so crazy and deranged that he believed an Ethereal right in front of him had feet and toes when all Ethereals have hooves by account of the codex 4th which overrides all other fluff, as is the way of GW. Anyone hallucinating to that degree is not to be trusted.

FR33Kandy wrote:3rd is retconed by 4th, this is how fluff works for 40k.

And xeneology as mentioned before is written by a man so crazy and deranged that he believed an Ethereal right in front of him had feet and toes when all Ethereals have hooves by account of the codex 4th which overrides all other fluff, as is the way of GW. Anyone hallucinating to that degree is not to be trusted.

Hooves are feet and toes. There are more types of hooves than that of the horse or deer.

Nothing was retconned in the 4th ed book. Just more info added.

And fluff in 40k works however an individual sees fit.

DeffDred wrote:Entire BL publication backing that claim? Check.

Fictional completely mad character speculating this reading cryptic evidence? Check. (Xenology)
Other 40k publication ridiculing and disproving this theory? Check. (Deathwatch)

Remember, I have several years of training in checking deliberately made up statements on Tau.

DeffDred wrote:Hooves are feet and toes. There are more types of hooves than that of the horse or deer.

Only Problem is that the pic clearly shows the wrong kind of hooves. But that my be an error of the artist not related to the author, but still: An obvious background mistake in the book.

hazal wrote:No one is 'good' in 40k

I like the idea of a newborn shouting "KILL, MAIM, BURN" , but somehow it feels wrong

Okay, sounds good. Nothing is retconed? So the void dragon is the machine spirit. The star gods are still a thing, and that last codex was a joke. Also a half elf space marine is out there trouncing about, also there are female orks and they reproduce sexually and the whole fungus thing, that was gw trolling us.

FR33Kandy wrote:Okay, sounds good. Nothing is retconed? So the void dragon is the machine spirit. The star gods are still a thing, and that last codex was a joke. Also a half elf space marine is out there trouncing about, also there are female orks and they reproduce sexually and the whole fungus thing, that was gw trolling us.

I was speaking about the Tau codex....

The void dragon is the machine spirit. (Cult of the Dragon, Mechanicus HH book)

Star Gods have never been fully explained.

There could very well be a half breed marine.

That female OrC is from fantasy. Blood Bowl I believe. A sport where every race plays football together...

If you don't like hooves that rhinos, hippos, elephants have that's fine.

If you don't like pheramones that's fine too.

I like the pheramone theory. I also like the Tau with "toes".

On the subject of toes vs hooves...

Who is to say that the different castes dont have different types of hooves?

There are several mutations between castes already.

Why would the air caste need hooves?

But they do, as do Ethereals. Just looks at the art/models in the codex... They all have the same type of hooves as well...

FR33Kandy wrote:But they do, as do Ethereals. Just looks at the art/models in the codex... They all have the same type of hooves as well...

You mean the one model shown that "could" be barefoot?

There is nothing to say that the Tau dont wear protective footwear.

Horse shoes?

Making up things left and right doesn't help you:

Official Ethereal model Aun'Shi with hooves and no shoes:

I thought he was "retconned" out of the codex.

To the contrary. He is mentioned several times only his profile was pulled, though it is rumored the 6th ed codex will include him again. However his model is still in full production amd counts as an ethereal with honor blade, and therefore cannon. But even without him.

http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Warhammer-40000/Tau/TAU-ACCESSORIES/TAU-AIR-CASTE-GROUND-CREW.html

There is not one model in production or drawing outside of xenology that supports a theory of divergently hooved or other wise footed Tau.

FR33Kandy wrote:To the contrary. He is mentioned several times only his profile was pulled, though it is rumored the 6th ed codex will include him again. However his model is still in full production amd counts as an ethereal with honor blade, and therefore cannon. But even without him.

http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Warhammer-40000/Tau/TAU-ACCESSORIES/TAU-AIR-CASTE-GROUND-CREW.html

There is not one model in production or drawing outside of xenology that supports a theory of divergently hooved or other wise footed Tau.

Ah yes... those beautiful air caste models with those awesome winged membranes to help them... wait a minute....

Anywho I've already made all these arguments like 3 months ago.

It comes down to personal preferance. I don't really care about Tau feet... or Tau in general for that matter.

I think they were a huge mistake and have no place in the 40k universe. But that's just my opinion. Feel free to have your own.

Something I never quite understood about 40k fans... They can claim not to care and yet vehemently defend a position on them in an argument spanning several days...

Every army has its target player. I will never understand the appeal of playing Nids, but they weren't ment for me. I like the idea of a general leading an army believing he is helping people in his conquest, however misguided that may be. Yet Nids are an army with no free will, the very thought of playing them bores me just out of the lack of factory options.

We all have our target armies, that one army that calls us to it. If you are not a Tau player, then I ask you why do you give a damn about our army. It is after all our army, and we should be the ones that decide how our fluff should be interpreted as it matters most to us. Hell I have no opinion on anyone else's fluff, I just want to fight for the greater good.

Besides if Gw has any business sense they will not endorse the pheromone concept as it is obvious that most Tau players do not like it (this poll as evidence) and they will lose money if they do not pander to those that buy the models.

Melissia wrote:Pheremones combined with ingrained sociological/psychological control.

I don't know if it is explicitly pheromones, but there is some kind of external influence at work. The initial story of the Ethereals has them showing up, and somehow magically ending all of the strife between the warring factions and that the Tau were unable to resist them. Something is at work. The social conditioning and propaganda came later and is what helps them control the greater Empire on a day to day basis.

Besides if Gw has any business sense they will not endorse the pheromone concept as it is obvious that most Tau players do not like it (this poll as evidence) and they will lose money if they do not pander to those that buy the models.

Dakkadakka.com is not the end-all-be-all of internet opinion.

In truth we Dakkaites are viewed as the "whiney cry-babies" of online tabletop gaming forums.

No offence to... us.

It would seem to be the prevailing sentiment on advancedtautactical.com, tauonline, and 40forums.com as well... Though I see no active polls there, it would seem that there is a majority position on Tau society held by the Tau gaming community.

But hey I thought you didn't care.

DeffDred wrote:

In truth we Dakkaites are viewed as the "whiney cry-babies" of online tabletop gaming forums.

Things suddenly make sooooo much more sense.

DeffDred wrote:In truth we Dakkaites are viewed as the "whiney cry-babies" of online tabletop gaming forums.

That's why they call our forum Whineseer ... wait

Veteran Sergeant wrote:The initial story of the Ethereals has them showing up, and somehow magically ending all of the strife between the warring factions and that the Tau were unable to resist them.

I don't think that is a literal account so much as a "this is how the revolution started" type of patriotic nostalgia.

Kinda hard to cherry pick what is and isn't literal. The book says they were magically unable to resist for whatever reason.

If it was described in a fluff story from a first person or focused third person perspective, then sure, it's open to interpretation. We're talking about how it was written in the non-narrated description of the book. It doesn't say "Stories are told" or "It is said" or something else that leaves ambiguity.

Third person narratives are less reliable than mythic summaries? May I ask what you think of the Horus Heresy series? I do agree that we can't say "this is propaganda but that is history" regarding the Codex. But this is a thread about preference rather than "canon" anyway. I just wanted to point out that the story did not have to be taken literally in order to make sense.

Limited perspective narratives are fine if they are describing first hand accounts. We can take Loken's battle with Abaddon as fact because it's being described as it's happening, from Loken's perspective. Now, at the same time if the story is being described by some third party, hundreds of years later, saying "It is said that Loken and Abaddon squared off in a duel to the death", then the story is open to interpretation.

What we're seeing in the Tau book is an account being described as it happened. It isn't a Tau historian saying that "there's a myth that this is how it went down."

I mean, sure, every story is up to interpretation, but it's somewhat difficult to suggest that things presented as fact are suddenly unreliable, because that then makes everything in the book unreliable.

So how about the following:

The legislators who wrote the Fourteenth Amendment would insure that racism could never again be institutionalized in the United States.

Would you say that is "an account being described as it happened" or "open to interpretation."

Tau codex starts whith : Greetings commader.
guees what prospective has....
and they HAD to acept the Etherials as he said that HE HAD AUTORITY. they believed him bs he was vere well-spoken.

Pada wrote:Tau codex starts whith : Greetings commader.

Isn't that under the heading "why collect a Tau army" or something similar? I don't think that sentence implies what you think it implies.

its showns that is from tau prospective. it says that ofc bs it has do to it in same way as games got tauriotals and so on. they must be there. but the general idea is that is going to refer to a Tau commader

Um, if the message is "Commander -- buy more toys at GW.com!" then I don't think we can say that's a meaningful Tau perspective.

Kroothawk wrote:

DeffDred wrote:Entire BL publication backing that claim? Check.

Fictional completely mad character speculating this reading cryptic evidence? Check. (Xenology)

Are you refering to Simon Spurrier or the narrator?

Also the book isn't entirely from the Narrators perspective.

Much of the book is "pict-images" and "notes" written by other characters.

And other characters "sign off" on the work of the Magos Biologis.

Manchu wrote:

Veteran Sergeant wrote:The initial story of the Ethereals has them showing up, and somehow magically ending all of the strife between the warring factions and that the Tau were unable to resist them.

I don't think that is a literal account so much as a "this is how the revolution started" type of patriotic nostalgia.

I stongly disagree with that. That's not the way it's portrayed in the codices. In the 'dex the Etherals suddenly appear and save the Tau from themselves. It's even inferred that the Etherals have an alien origin (alien to the Tau that is). It's like a switch was flipped from that point on in Tau history.

You really have to go out of your way to explain that it wasn't the fact the Etherals have some sort of psyiological effect on the other Tau. You have to ignore what's on the page.

Furthermore, why go down this road? They're the first race to evolve post-heresy and get it's own codex. Most are wiped out. That's because the Tau are special, they didn't just get lucky and what makes them special is The Etherals. That's been their ace in the hole.

Manchu wrote:Um, if the message is "Commander -- buy more toys at GW.com!" then I don't think we can say that's a meaningful Tau perspective.

ok you got right to this.

but i found one better proof from the Co dex : for the loyalty of the Fire caste was not sure as it had once been, whith many of its warriors openly proclaiming their support for the renegate Commader Farshith.Whith O'Shovah breakway from the Tau Empire,his deeds have, despite the best attepts of the Etherials , caused a schism among the Fire Warriors of the Tau

so... they CHOOSE to follow the Etherials

KamikazeCanuck wrote:That's not the way it's portrayed in the codices.

I think I have already demonstrated otherwise. Please see my example of a text about the Fourteenth Amendment above. "History" as an account is a just another perspective, not the necessarily the literal truth.

KamikazeCanuck wrote:You have to ignore what's on the page.

By all means, find me that page and post the page number. I have read Codex: Tau Empire pretty carefully and I am positive that what you're saying is merely an inference.


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Pada wrote:so... they CHOOSE to follow the Etherials

Awesome point then!

If some Tau living in the Empire under the Ethereals express sympathy with Farsight then we have some evidence that Tau are not biochemically brain-washed into obedience.

also is posible that Etherial's word are the "cure" for Chaos!

see that thought : Farshitg is corupted whith chaos for the reasons :
1) Daemonic blade he wields in combat
2) his long life
3) his capital planet once housed a large population of heretics and mutants, ruled over by the Alpha Legion. The planet was cleansed by the Scythes of the Emperor.
so maybe whithout indivitualism there isnt Chaos Gods?!?

Alpha legion are less chaos more space marines using chaos though... Always thought alpha legion would be natural allies of the Tau. Their plan is after all to defeat chaos by killing all humans, the combined psychic presence of whom keeps the eye of terror open.


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Also alpha legion are working for the Eldar.

Pada wrote:Farshitg is corupted whith chaos for the reasons

Farshit eh?
Chaos is beginning to grow, it starts warping the spelling already

Manchu wrote:

KamikazeCanuck wrote:That's not the way it's portrayed in the codices.

I think I have already demonstrated otherwise. Please see my example of a text about the Fourteenth Amendment above. "History" as an account is a just another perspective, not the necessarily the literal truth.

KamikazeCanuck wrote:You have to ignore what's on the page.

By all means, find me that page and post the page number. I have read Codex: Tau Empire pretty carefully and I am positive that what you're saying is merely an inference.


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Pada wrote:so... they CHOOSE to follow the Etherials

Awesome point then!

If some Tau living in the Empire under the Ethereals express sympathy with Farsight then we have some evidence that Tau are not biochemically brain-washed into obedience.

At least there is something to infer. To go the opposite way you'd need something that points in that direction too.

Expressing sympathy is not the same as defecting. The only Tau not following the orders of the Etherals are the ones with no Etherals around. In fact, iirc what caused Farsight to go rogue was the death of the Etheral assigned to him.

Let me try to put this in order:

Manchu wrote:I have read Codex: Tau Empire pretty carefully and I am positive that what you're saying is merely an inference.

KamikazeCanuck wrote:At least there is something to infer. To go the opposite way you'd need something that points in that direction too.

Manchu wrote:If some Tau living in the Empire under the Ethereals express sympathy with Farsight then we have some evidence that Tau are not biochemically brain-washed into obedience.

KamikazeCanuck wrote:Expressing sympathy is not the same as defecting. The only Tau not following the orders of the Etherals are the ones with no Etherals around. In fact, iirc what caused Farsight to go rogue was the death of the Etheral assigned to him.

We don't need an outright defection. Mind control would render sympathy with Farsight's views impossible because it's, you know, mind control.

Manchu wrote:Let me try to put this in order:

Manchu wrote:I have read Codex: Tau Empire pretty carefully and I am positive that what you're saying is merely an inference.

KamikazeCanuck wrote:At least there is something to infer. To go the opposite way you'd need something that points in that direction too.

Manchu wrote:If some Tau living in the Empire under the Ethereals express sympathy with Farsight then we have some evidence that Tau are not biochemically brain-washed into obedience.

KamikazeCanuck wrote:Expressing sympathy is not the same as defecting. The only Tau not following the orders of the Etherals are the ones with no Etherals around. In fact, iirc what caused Farsight to go rogue was the death of the Etheral assigned to him.

We don't need an outright defection. Mind control would render sympathy with Farsight's views impossible because it's, you know, mind control.

You're confusing my position with someone elses. I don't think The Etherals have mind control powers like "psychic domination" or something like that. They can't just shoot brainwaves into other Tau. It seems a lot more subtle than that. I think pheromones get mentioned a lot because it's the closest term we have but it's something so alien that there is no human word or concept to it.
They seem to have an organizing or soothing effect on the Tau. In no way are the Tau mindless drones like the Tyranid but The Etherals do have the ability to have them all work together for a greater....purpose.

I am incline to agree with Manchu. If they were mind controlled no Tau other then those in Farsight's command would even have the ability to agree with the Ethereals. Many did until Shadowsun gave her empire wide address.

"with many warriors openly proclaiming their support for the renegade Commander Farsight. With O'Shovah's breakaway fRom the Tau empire, his deeds have, despite the best attempts of the Ethereals, caused a schism amongst the Fire Warriors of the Tau." page 46 Tau Codex

"As the new campaigns were unveiled, so too was the
warrior that Aun'Va decreed would spearheaded the
war effort, a warrior who knew that to follow Farsight's example could only lead to the Mont'au, the time when the Tau race threatened to extinguish itself in a barbaric civil war." page 46 Tau Codex

That is conclusive proof the Aun maintain control through manipulation, Firewarriors choose to follow, and must be talked into it by fellow Fio caste members.


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Half the empire supported Farsight until Shadowsun destroyed his statue front of the Mont'yr battle dome. Page 46 Tau Codex

KamikazeCanuck wrote:They seem to have an organizing or soothing effect on the Tau.

There is no more evidence for this than there is for the idea that the Ethereals' philosophy is simply extremely appealing to the other Tau where the word "appealing" is, as you would put it, "the closest term we have but it's something so alien that there is no human word or concept to it."

FR33Kandy wrote:I am incline to agree with Manchu. If they were mind controlled no Tau other then those in Farsight's command would even have the ability to agree with the Ethereals. Many did until Shadowsun gave her empire wide address.

"with many warriors openly proclaiming their support for the renegade Commander Farsight. With O'Shovah's breakaway fRom the Tau empire, his deeds have, despite the best attempts of the Ethereals, caused a schism amongst the Fire Warriors of the Tau." page 46 Tau Codex

"As the new campaigns were unveiled, so too was the
warrior that Aun'Va decreed would spearheaded the
war effort, a warrior who knew that to follow Farsight's example could only lead to the Mont'au, the time when the Tau race threatened to extinguish itself in a barbaric civil war." page 46 Tau Codex

That is conclusive proof the Aun maintain control through manipulation, Firewarriors choose to follow, and must be talked into it by fellow Fio caste members.


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Half the empire supported Farsight until Shadowsun destroyed his statue front of the Mont'yr battle dome. Page 46 Tau Codex

I see it the other way. Once again all Tau in Etheral territory ended siding with The Etherals. If we had one incident of a Tau directly disobeying an Etheral face to face then bingo. However we don't even have a single occurence of Tau on Tau violence since the Etherals appeared! Everything just went awesomely the minute they showed up.

Tau standing right in front of Ethereals supported Farsight until Shadowsun took action....

FR33Kandy wrote:Tau standing right in front of Ethereals supported Farsight until Shadowsun took action....

Only in the loosest sense of the words "support" and "right in front of". They didn't actually support Farsight in any real way. One problem that may come to a head soon in the Empire is that The Etherals are stretched thin. That's what made the Farsight desertion possible. They can't be everywhere.

Or they don't need to be ... because there is no pheremone ... and Tau are a free-thinking people who share almost all of their values.

Manchu wrote:Or they don't need to be ... because there is no pheremone ... and Tau are a free-thinking people who share almost all of their values.

Yes they are. Tau have free will. Joe Tau Six Pack goes to work, he chooses whether he wants a soup or sandwich for lunch, punch out of his nine-to-fiver at oval chair making factory goes home and decides whether he wants to watch The Greater Good Today news program or some sitcom about the hilarious hijinks of the water caste. When an important decision or edict is laid down by The Etherals he will also ALWAYS agree with it. They're just always right....all the time.

What evidence is there Ethereals are spread thin? Judging by the video game and models, there is an Ethereal on every Orca, every Manta, and every other ship. each ship carries several Mantas and Orcas so we can draw the conclusion there are dozens on every damn ship the fire caste use... How do you imply the Firewarriors are to get away from them? I would like page numbers and quotes to support this insane inference or your argument is invalid.

FR33Kandy wrote:What evidence is there Ethereals are spread thin? Judging by the video game and models, there is there is an Ethereal on every Orca, every Manta, and every other ship. each ship carries several Mantas and Orcas so we can draw the conclusion there are dozens on every damn ship the fire caste use... How do you imply the Firewarriors are to get away from them? I would like page numbers and quotes to support this insane inference or your argument is invalid.

Or they're not. Doesn't actually affect my argument one way or the other. The point is there was none with Farsight. It's just the Tau are expanding like crazy lately so it seems hard to put an Etheral in every village and town on the border worlds.

Birth rate is exponential regardless of the species...

FR33Kandy wrote:Birth rate is exponential regardless of the species...

Ya, well maybe every frontier town does have an Etheral. Maybe all mayors are automatically Etherals. That would explain why there is no dissention or separatism anywhere.

Etherals could reproduce 1:1. Or not at all. I'm not aware of their reproductive mechanisms.


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Would explain the big deal when one dies.

Okay so let me summarize your argument.

The Fio caste can not control themselves in the presence of the Aun.

There are groups of Aun on every ship and Firewarriors are always close to them.

Firewarriors across the empire once supported Farsight's insurrection to the point of almost causing civil war.

But as mentioned they are always around them, and can't choose to disagree with them... WTF sir?




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Assuming they are the first race I have heard of that reproduce 1:1 anywhere in the universe. What evidence do you have for this? the burden of proof falls to you here. Speculation is not an argument.

I think I like that idea. Not based on anything mind you, but limited number of etherals would mean the mon'tau would become, not inevitable, but a greater threat of actually occurring again.

FR33Kandy wrote:Okay so let me summarize your argument.

The Fio caste can not control themselves in the presence of the Aun.

There are groups of Aun on every ship and Firewarriors are always close to them.

Firewarriors across the empire once supported Farsight's insurrection to the point of almost causing civil war.

But as mentioned they are always around them, and can't choose to disagree with them... WTF sir?

Yes, that's right. Once again, they all did side with The Etherals. Tau can grumble but note how none of them actually went against the Etherals when it came down to it.

And claiming any knowledge to the reproductive capacities of etherals is also speculation, as there is no fluff on that matter I'm aware of. Enlighten me if you've got any, but don't claim to be right without any support either.

KamikazeCanuck wrote:punch out of his nine-to-fiver at oval chair making factory

Whatever our formal disagreement, that is indeed a wonderfully funny image.

I have no evidence other than the fact that no life currently known has such a birth rate as the population would die out so fast they would measure but a blip on the time line. Think about it. 1:1 birth rate would have them down to mean scores by now less than 100 remaining seeing as there could not have been more than thousands on Tau to start with. No lifeform could reproduce like that and hope to perpetuate its species, which mind you is the ultimate goal of life.

Also they did not ally to the Ethereals but Shadowsun, and being on the verge of civil war is not grumbling...

CpatTom wrote:Etherals could reproduce 1:1. Or not at all. I'm not aware of their reproductive mechanisms.


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Would explain the big deal when one dies.

The Tau reproductive system is nearly identical to mankind.

Start with 5000 etherals, and thats more than plenty for their span of existence. That's losing less than one a year without replacement. Certainly attainable given the defensive nature the tau take.

I'm not arguing about the tau species as a whole, they certainly have to reproduce faster than that given shorter life spans and rapid expansion, but the etherals, that number is conjecture.

Also, little fallacy of induction there? 1:1 has never been observed so it can't happen? That would invalidate your argument, in the logical sense of course.


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DeffDred wrote:

The Tau reproductive system is nearly identical to mankind.

Tau porn the source on this? Haha.

I always liked the idea of little blue tube babies, selected based on genetics and accomplishments and junk.

Clearly you are not a student of logic.

Lets apply that argument to something similar

No human has ever been observed levitating with their mind. Therefore it is illogical to assume people can not levitate with their minds.

I would accept the theory if you had evidence as i would accept telekenisis given evidence. But as you have none it is impractical to assume it possible.

5000 Ethereals, dozens on every ship, thousands of ships... Why is this logical?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Problem_of_induction
There you go. Thats your, I've never observed it, so its not possible fallacy.

It is not logical to assume people can levitate with their minds, because there is no proof. There is evidence to say that people cannot levitate, as people have fallen to their deaths, which would suggest they would have levitated if they had the ability to do so.

So, I offer the possibility that the Tau Etheral Caste is in fact of a limited number. Given there is no evidence one way or the other, I will offer theories until I can present proof, instead of presenting my theories as proof. (which by the way, is also begging the question: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Begging_the_question)

One on every ship? or dozens? Don't know much about the Kor'vatta. Orca's are one, but don't know how many of those the Tau have floating around.

Inflate the number of Etherals to fit the number of ships, they could still be reproducing 1:1, cause without the biological methods that produced them, there is no reason to assume they came about the same way as all the other species around. No reasons to assume they haven't otherwise either.

No evidence, no conclusion, just assumptions and inferences.

Orcas and Mantas each carry a single ethereal,

http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/New_Stuff/IMPERIAL_ARMOUR_AERONAUTICA.html

According to this book they are the workforce of the Tau army. Each Emissary class ship features scores of these vessels.

http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Battlefleet-Gothic/TAU-EMISSARY-CLASS-STARSHIP.html

The Emissary starship is also described as becoming a common site in the empire...

And my argument is not that it is impossible that the 1:1 ratio exist however it is that it has no evidence. According to the famous tea pot argument it is something we must remain agnostic about. And if it is indeed something we must remain agnostic about than it can not be the basis for your pheromone theory.

your arguments are built on a house of cards.

So, whats that? Scores? Specific. Who's making unfalsifiable claims again?

And you have no evidence as to how the Etheral's actually reproduce, so you cannot make a claim that they do in fact reproduce one way without making a claim that is, wait for it, unfalsifiable.

I offered a hypothesis as to how the Etheral's could reproduce, without assuming that my hypothesis was true because "thats how everybody else does it".

Is it beyond reason that the Etheral's are limited in number and reproductive capacity, and this is why their loss is so psychologically damaging to the rest of the Tau? I don't think so, and it actually offers a counter point to the "pheremone" business.

Also haven't made any attempt to connect the pheromone theory to anything in all of this. Just to clarify that point.

What I've been saying is, that until either of us have proof, little etheral babies could pop out either way. Or any number of other ways for that matter.

So much easier just to call people stupid. Burden of proof is on he who makes a claim. Ie, if you make a claim such as 1:1 reproduction you must prove your claim. A claim for which there is no evidence. Standard reproductive processes have evidence as it exists everywhere. If you make a claim it is your responsibility to defend it. It is not my duty to poke whole in it.

unfalsifiable? Read the book it will tell you the amount on each in detail. I'm sure you can rapidshare it. I used scores as a general word for more than dozens. More than dozens of ships means more than dozens of Ethereals. Sorry I do not know the exact amount I read the book some time ago.

And yes, guessing there are a limited number, an assumption not supported by fluff, is a stretch. What if Ethereal are like priests? Or simply heroes? If I watched the death of my hero or holy priest I too would lose my heart in battle... Again something we must remain agnostic about.

But what we have is, no evidence, intact anti-evidence, for the pheromone theory. No evidence for limited numbers of Ethereals, quite the opposite. And plentiful evidence for Tau following the Aun out of free will, and simply hating when their beloved leaders die.


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Occam's Razor man, Occam's Razor. The simplest answer is always assumed to be the correct answer unless you have evidence otherwise.

"Standard reproductive process": in the universe with Nids and Orks. Right.

I offer a possible alternative, recognizing I don't have proof, cause there isn't any either way.

You ask for me to defend a claim, but are incapable of defending your own, but, because it works that way for everything else, it has to work that way for Etherals.

I'm not gonna steal a book to make a point on a forum. There is no definitive number of Etheral given in the fluff. Just, "they got some on some ships". The Tau are by definition "limited by number", unless 6th edition saw the 4th sphere expansion.

Occam's: "urging one to select from among competing hypotheses that which makes the fewest assumptions".

Etheral Reproduction
1. Reproduce 1:1<. one assumption: Etherals like everyone else.
2, Reproduce 1:1. one assumption: Not like everyone else, a fact supported by the fact that they didnt "evolve", they just kinda showed up one day not very long ago.

Or we could wait to get the next codex, and see if we could actually make an informed decision on the subject, with actual evidence.

And stop trying forcing my argument into this pheromone box. I have made no arguments for it or against it. A limited number of Etherals fits the argument "against" the pheremone theory, which I feel you are arguing against.

Who said they didn't evolve? sure they just showed up, but so did the vedic people in 6000 bc, so did white people in America... And you keep saying I'm making more assumptions?


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Orks and Nids also reproduce more than 1:1...

1:1 in fashions that haven't ever been possible before.

3 ed codex: Doesnt that have a pic of an Etheral decked out in his pimp robe and with his pimp staff arriving to sticks and rock tau? That I could be misremembering, but I suppose thats one of the things that never meshed for me. When they arrived they looked exactly like they do at the "present". Which suggests something different.

Englishmen dress relatively the same way as they did when they came in contact with the stick and rock native Americans. Live in pretty much the same houses too.

But you have a point that is an unimaginatively large lack of cultural development. I will say much of their empire doesn't rreally make sense when compared to other better written sci fi. Kroot wear no clothes, bear choppy weapons, and have no land vehicles but have space ships? Ethereals lead one of the most powerful and advanced armies into battle but wear robes and carry symbols of office into battle? A lot of it doesn't mesh. But then 40k has a lot of weird tech issues. I mean imperial guard wear 1950's era combat gear, and their weapons look like they are from ww2. I get that they are supposed to be all advanced and stuff, but it all just looks old. Eh 40k is 40k, there has to be some reason we like it.


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Also hundreds if not thousands of species do reproduce via spores released upon their death. (orks) and many more species reproduce in complex queen worker relationships similar to the Nids.

I voted other because I think it would be more effective if they just yelled at the other tau to keep them in line.

KamikazeCanuck wrote:

Once again, they all did side with The Etherals. Tau can grumble but note how none of them actually went against the Etherals when it came down to it.

It says that Etherials do the best effords to Fire caste but it hasnt got any point.they were still untrasted. And of counse they could go against the Etherials . Its like a Commader of the Impeial go to a full-in-belief-to-God-Emperor Govenor whith his priest aside ( aside to the govenor i mean) and say :screw Emperor, lets join the Chaos.
In one word only : killed as traitor in sight.

OK, the reason why the Pheremone thing is just stupid wrong is that you have a species that has mastered interstellar and ftl travel, they have an earth caste that create communion helms and understands biology of both their own race and that of other races. They would figure out the pheremone thing, probably accept it as natural and it wouldn't be a big secret.

When fluff or, for that matter, any story tries to make the reader accept the absurd without explanation then it is poorly written. We as customers have the right to expect better for what we are shelling out in monies.


Now, what would have made sense, is if "that piece of Tau fluff written from the Imperiums pov" about the artificial dna enzymes was used to explain genetic manipulation of the Tau to make them inclined to following the Greater Good (You know, less susceptible to personal desires and temptation, this would also dovetail nicely into why the Tau are resistant/immune to chaos corruptiuon).

If your theory was in the codex, and the Eldar did do this to help the Tau and the universe, than I would accept it and love it. That would be beautiful if the Eldar and their allies the Alpha Legion were helping protect the Tau and were setting them up to inherit the galaxy.

There would be no mind control and no manipulation here, only the ancient ones doing what must be done to help the race who is and will become the best hope for our galaxy.

Sadly no current fluff supports it, but I would like it if it were part of a reboot of their origin story in 6th.

FR33Kandy wrote:If your theory was in the codex, and the Eldar did do this to help the Tau and the universe, than I would accept it and love it. That would be beautiful if the Eldar and their allies the Alpha Legion were helping protect the Tau and were setting them up to inherit the galaxy.

There would be no mind control and no manipulation here, only the ancient ones doing what must be done to help the race who is and will become the best hope for our galaxy.

Sadly no current fluff supports it, but I would like it if it were part of a reboot of their origin story in 6th.

The stuff about the synthetic enzymes and protiens are in the tau empire codex. Its on page 20, the ad-mech document by Zachary Santiago.

Again, I feel that this would be a better starting point than the pheremone thing. The artificial dna protiens could easily be missed by the Tau, dismissed as natural to their species or a health supplement that they take to prevent cancer or something of the sort.

Which leaves me excited for the next codex, cause 3rd to 4th I don't remember having a whole lot of new material. Sure, it had some, but I feel like GW has been producing more quality products as of late.

I would like it more if they noticed and reffered to the Eldar as the architects of their empire. Even if they no longer agree with the Eldar's secretive and xenophobic ways, they could see themselves as the rightful inheritance of the once great Eldar empire.

Except there's no connection between the two.

I know there isn't, but I would be more receptive to that then confirmation of the pheromone theory.