With the advent of digital GW rulebooks, and the add-on articles,
will they ever put WD only rules up on the site for free again?

I'm thinkin not.
My impression is that from now on, if you miss out on the White Dwarf,
your only option is the digital product. And if you don't own an iPad, you are SOL.

Not liking this approach.
I don't like the idea of having to get a WD sub to make sure I don't miss any rules.
It already feels like the edition changes are more of a tax to keep playing
than a refinement or evolution of the game.

Thoughts?

So you dont like gw doing the thing they aren't doing but you say they will do with no proof? Ok then.

skrulnik wrote:Not liking this approach.
I don't like the idea of having to get a WD sub to make sure I don't miss any rules.
It already feels like the edition changes are more of a tax to keep playing
than a refinement or evolution of the game.

Thoughts?

My thoughts are that you are jumping to conclusions without much in the way of confirmation.

My conclusion was the Stormtalon and Ork Bomma rules.

White Dwarf issue that sold out, or digital product.

Also, where is the Sisters of Battle codex that was in White Dwarf?

I don't like that there are game rules that are only available to a part of the player base.

Did GW stop you from buying their WD?

Did GW restrict access to who could buy WD?

No they didn't. So GW is not making "game rules that are only available to part of their player base".

At least, not in any way they haven't already.

I don't buy every single codex that is released, so should i be complaining about how those rules are not available to me?

You seem to think you are entitled to get free rules from GW. This is not the case.

Dracos wrote:
I don't buy every single codex that is released, so should i be complaining about how those rules are not available to me?

You seem to think you are entitled to get free rules from GW. This is not the case.

Hi I'm johnny new guy who would like to play Sisters of Battle how do I get the codex?

R3con wrote:

Dracos wrote:
I don't buy every single codex that is released, so should i be complaining about how those rules are not available to me?

You seem to think you are entitled to get free rules from GW. This is not the case.

Hi I'm johnny new guy who would like to play Sisters of Battle how do I get the codex?

Now that is a good post and a good point!

R3con wrote:

Dracos wrote:
I don't buy every single codex that is released, so should i be complaining about how those rules are not available to me?

You seem to think you are entitled to get free rules from GW. This is not the case.

Hi I'm johnny new guy who would like to play Sisters of Battle how do I get the codex?

This. You seem awfully quick to jump down the OP's throat and attack him for what are legitimate concerns, Dracos. There are plenty of reasons a person might want to pick up some of these rules after a WD has sold-out. What about those who weren't aware that the rules for Ork Bommers were only in the WD? Oh, you just started Orks? Well, look at this cool jet model they have, it isn't in the codex and you can't get the rules anymore, without an IPad, but doesn't it look neat? Whether they should remain free or not is entirely up to GW, but cutting certain customers off from them entirely is just silly.

The thing to remember is that the WD rules are temporary updates meant to keep an army playable. GW SHOULD be putting out an update, much like the errata and FAQ, but why bother when you can make people pay for it, and fill the opposite page with advertising of the new model to make people go buy it.

If somone doesn't buy every codex, that's their choice. My mate buys every single codex and keeps it to hand in case he needs to review the enemy he's facing, or in case a friend swings by without their codex. It makes a huge deal when you have access to the current rules or not, and you show up to a game, but don't have the rules for the new stuff, and your opponent does. It's like agreeing on a joust, but bringing gun instead of a lance.

Further to the point, with limited issues of WD available, and the copyright surrounding those, the answer is: yes, GW did in fact limit the availability of the rules for it's players. Let's say GW released a limited edition version of every codex, releasing only 100 copies that gives access to 5 special units and special rules. Only the owner of those rules has access to them. Sure, you could copy the rules. And then get clapped for copyright violation and infringement of terms of use. You could try memorising them, but get asked to produce the rules, and you don't have the book.... awesome.

Dracos wrote:Did GW restrict access to who could buy WD?

Given that the issue with the new fliers in it sold out just about instantly, yes, they sort of did.

And as others have pointed out, anyone who is starting the game (or just starting a new army) now is just out of luck.

I don't buy every single codex that is released, so should i be complaining about how those rules are not available to me?

The codexes are available. The WD rules aren't.

You seem to think you are entitled to get free rules from GW. This is not the case.

Offering the rules for free would obviously be the option that people would prefer... but I suspect that most players would have no problem at all with paying a small fee for downloadable rules if they were made an option. Having to purchase an iPad first though makes that a distinctly less attractive option.

If you really want the rules that WD has to offer, you can subscribe and not have the problem with them running out of copies.

WD rules are available to those who buy them, and the way to guarantee a buy is a subscription.

Hey I'm no GW apologist, and I'd personally love PDF rules updates. But to say they are not available is just false, they are just not available in the medium or payment method you desire. Too bad.

I don't particularly like the way some rules updates are done, but the OPs claim is unfounded and he's whining about an action he's speculating they will take.

I went to several stores the day after the Dakka Jet white dwarf came out. They were sold out. I called many stores. Sold out.

I love the look of the Dakka Jet, but I'll be damned if I'll buy a model if there are no rules that I can legally obtain. I don't care if it's a free pdf or printed in a book I have to buy, but make it available.

The WD is out of print, Dracos. The only other place to get the Dakka Jet rules is a iPad only datafile.

Calling people whiners over this issue is trolling.

Oh you didn't get your subscription copy?

Dracos wrote:Oh you didn't get your subscription copy?

More trolling. Nice.

Dracos wrote:If you really want the rules that WD has to offer, you can subscribe and not have the problem with them running out of copies.

Excellent. I will go sign up immediately!

When do I receive the issue with the Stormtalon rules in it?

Hint: They have a foolproof option for you to never miss a WD rules update. Its called a subscription.

Just because you don't like that option does not mean its not available.

I don't like it, but that doesn't mean its not an option. You guys are claiming you have no option, but really you just dont like the option that you have.

HI. I'm Johnny new guy and I just got my subscription today!

Where are the Dakka Jet rules?

Dracos wrote:You guys are claiming you have no option, but really you just dont like the option that you have.

There is no option.

insaniak wrote:

Dracos wrote:If you really want the rules that WD has to offer, you can subscribe and not have the problem with them running out of copies.

Excellent. I will go sign up immediately!

When do I receive the issue with the Stormtalon rules in it?

And I'm called a troll. Ok then.

Dracos wrote:And I'm called a troll. Ok then.

Are you really surprised? You're claiming that the rules are available because people would have received the White Dwarf if they had subscribed.

Can you honestly not see how that does not equate to the rules being currently available?

Unless time travel has suddenly become an option, signing up for a subscription does not get you rules that were only available in a previous White Dwarf issue. Anyone who decided to start an Ork or Marine army with the new edition of 40K has no access to the flyer rules. Anyone new to the game likewise has no access to those rules. Telling them that they should have set up a subscription for White Dwarf 3 months ago doesn't change the simple fact that the rules are not currently available.

Android house here, need flyer rules, have no subscription to WD and only monthly access at best to a shop. I was waiting patiently for the Stormtalon rules, will I be waiting in vain?

And you guys are acting like you're surprised that GW isn't giving you shat for free. AFAIK it would be against everything we know about GW for that to happen.

If you want WD rules, then you must subscribe or take the gamble that you can get it at the store before they run out.

That is the option you have. If you took the gamble and didn't win, you have no one to blame but yourself.

Again, just because you don't like the option given, which is to subscribe to the magazine, doesn't mean it isn't there.

As you so pointed out, time travel does not exist yet (at least not to my knowledge). That makes going back in time and subscribing before your "must have" issue comes out not an option.

Not surprising either, considering they want people to subscribe.


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BladeWalker wrote:have no subscription to WD

And that's the source of your problem. At the moment, the only way to guarantee you will have all rules WD will release is to subscribe. Sorry :S

Or, y'know, when you release a model which isn't in a codex, you could include a sheet of A4 as an insert with the rules in.

Admittedly, this only works on boxed sets, but the point stands.

Did GW stop you from buying their WD?

Yes. When they started pricing it at a ridiculous level. I mean, it's a CATALOG, for heaven's sake.

Did GW restrict access to who could buy WD?

Yes. By pricing it at such a ridiculous amount, they restricted it from purchase by anyone who couldn't possibly make sense of spending $9 on a catalog or who, in the case of many younger fans, simply couldn't afford it.

No they didn't. So GW is not making "game rules that are only available to part of their player base".

Actually, the answer's "Yes," for the reasons above.

You seem to think you are entitled to get free rules from GW. This is not the case.

Or, perhaps, he thinks GW should do (what he feels to be) a better job supporting it's product and fan base by making rules more easily available for those people who purchase the model and already own the codex for the army it's supposed to be for.

What if GW kept up this model? Instead of releasing codices, they started just releasing models for particular armies and charging $9 for the WD that has their rules or $6 (or whatever it costs) for a digital download of them... if you happen to have the only platform they're releasing the rules to be compatible with?

If you really want the rules that WD has to offer, you can subscribe and not have the problem with them running out of copies.

WD rules are available to those who buy them, and the way to guarantee a buy is a subscription.

Hey, now. There's an interesting option. We should pay $75 a year for a GW catalog (or nearly $21 more, if you want the Special [note: NOT Limited] Edition model included), which has been steadily declining in quality over the last 3 to 5 years, on the off chance that it will have some rules in it at some point that year for models that we don't even know are coming out, since the GW machine doesn't want anyone to know anything in advance, or that we'll even use.
Better yet, let's go ahead and buy the 2 years for $140!


Maybe, Dracos, you should consider dropping the vitriol and communicate in a more respectful manner. You might be surprised at the difference in the way your opinions are accepted or, at least, treated.


Eric

Dracos wrote:And you guys are acting like you're surprised that GW isn't giving you shat for free.

Aside from the part where I already mentioned no minding having to pay for the rules?

If you want WD rules, then you must subscribe or take the gamble that you can get it at the store before they run out.

With the end result being that if you didn't get that WD, the rules are not available.

Which, you know, was the point of the thread.

As you so pointed out, time travel does not exist yet (at least not to my knowledge). That makes going back in time and subscribing before your "must have" issue comes out not an option.

Which means that the rules are not currently available. Are you seeing the pattern here yet?

Don't want to subscribe to WD? Then don't.

But if you fail to subscribe, you give up the ability to legitimately complain that an item included in the subscription is unavailable to you.

Its really just that simple.

Sorry you don't like the option GW is giving you.

I'd also like to get free rules, and hell why not throw some free models, paints and an apple pie in because I want it.

Dracos wrote:And you guys are acting like you're surprised that GW isn't giving you shat for free. AFAIK it would be against everything we know about GW for that to happen.

If you want WD rules, then you must subscribe or take the gamble that you can get it at the store before they run out.

That is the option you have. If you took the gamble and didn't win, you have no one to blame but yourself.

Again, just because you don't like the option given, which is to subscribe to the magazine, doesn't mean it isn't there.

As you so pointed out, time travel does not exist yet (at least not to my knowledge). That makes going back in time and subscribing before your "must have" issue comes out not an option.

Not surprising either, considering they want people to subscribe.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

BladeWalker wrote:have no subscription to WD

And that's the source of your problem. At the moment, the only way to guarantee you will have all rules WD will release is to subscribe. Sorry :S

Whilst I do think it is annoying that lots of vital rules are only available in out of print White Dwarves, I find it hard to disagree with this guy. Why? Try reading his post in GLaDOS's voice.

So will we then see a refusal to play with models with WD rules only?

I can see a distinct similarity to the Forgeworld situation. No-one wants to play FW because they don't know the rules for them (not available) or that they have to pay excessive amounts of cash (subscriptions) to get them.

So will WD only rules be dismissed from tourneys as FW is?

Cheers

Andrew

I used to have a subscription to WD.

It wasn't a guarantee you WOULD get an issue, or even that you'd get it BEFORE the news-stands. Indeed, in the 7 or so years I had subscriptions for, it wasn't an uncommon thing to not get at least one issue per subscription.

After complaining to them (politely. The more steamed I get, the more polite I get. I was VERY polite.) I ended up getting a 3 month extension to the subscription per missed issue. I still didn't get those issues.

I'm not about to get an overpriced toy (ipad)* just to get that information that I should have received as a subscriber.


*I've worked in Apple's service department, it has forever soured me on EVER using one of their products, let alone forking over the readies for one.

Dracos wrote:Don't want to subscribe to WD? Then don't.

But if you fail to subscribe, you give up the ability to legitimately complain that an item included in the subscription is unavailable to you.

So, what this boils down to is that everyone on the planet should subscribe to White Dwarf, on the off-chance that it will include rules that they might want if they ever start playing 40K, or they have nobody but themselves to blame if they start playing 40K and/or that specific army and don't have access to those rules?


And you seriously don't see why people find that idea just the slightest bit ridiculous?

I'd also like to get free rules, and hell why not throw some free models, paints and an apple pie in because I want it.

For the third time, then... I have no problem with paying for the rules. I would happily pay a couple of dollars for a PDF download. I would happily pay a couple of dollars for some guy at GW to photocopy the pages from White Dwarf and post them to me. I would happily pay a few dollars for an eBook download. I have no problem whatsoever with the rules not being available for free... just with them not being available at all unless I gain the ability to leap through time and subscribe to White Dwarf retrospectively.

Dracos wrote:Don't want to subscribe to WD? Then don't.

But if you fail to subscribe, you give up the ability to legitimately complain that an item included in the subscription is unavailable to you.

Its really just that simple.

Sorry you don't like the option GW is giving you.

I'd also like to get free rules, and hell why not throw some free models, paints and an apple pie in because I want it.

The reason we have codices, is to have the rules. Updates like FAQ and Errata are designed to clarify and amend the rules. When you release a limited-print document, and charge everyone $10 for the rules contained in it, that's that. You are not allowed to make copies of what's there, and even if you memorize what's in your friend's copy, you're always required to produce the source if your oponent feels the need to ask. The result is that the vast majority of players do not have access to these units, simply because the rules are a limited edition release available to only those who bought that issue. Anyone can go and buy a current codex at any given time. Only so many people can buy a WD issue because they are limited. Subscribe you say? And pray tell, why should I waste $10/month for MAYBE getting an updated set of rules once every year? thats $85 year-subscription. I don't see why I should pay GW $10 a month to have them send me a magazine that's 90% advertising. Heck, WD's purpose isn't to publish rules, but to advertise and, on the rare occasion that GW sees the light, offer hobby advice. GW is giving me other options too, like walking away and going to a different gaming company that isn't as cult oriented that gives all of the customers equal access to the rules irrespective of when they joined. GW's customer service is awesome, but it's easy to have great customer service when there is absolutely no customer support.


Your arguments that GW doesnt give out rules for free is baseless, you can see that for yourself by clicking here or here. It might also help for you to scroll to the bottom of a page when shopping at the web store. You'll find the basic profile listed there. These are after all still rules, and they are available to everyone. It stands in GW's interest to release the rules and make them available online for the one model they added to the rulebook. Would GW rather get say, $570 by selling 50 copies of WD and having the 50th person pick up a storm-talon, or would GW rather make $1200 by selling 50 copies of WD, and making the rules available to everyone, so that the 9 other dudes who don't buy WD buy the model? Hell, if GW had a piece of laminated card-stock with the rules for the storm-talon on it, sure, I'd pay for that. Not for the WD magazine.

Do you want free rules? Really? I'm more than willing to provide them for you. Simply follow this link.

Unless they make them for android as well as apple I wont care. GW could only decide to stick with apple but gw are expensive enough without also having to fork out for an apple product. I believe eventually they will release stuff for android but it would be a huge mistake for gw to remove stuff from their website as not everyone owns a tablet device or fancies carrying them around in a gw store (nout against kids but well ya know)

well, I know a way to get free rules.... but thats more or less illegal and gets me banned from the forums :3

Insaniak what you don't like is the price of the product. They are offering it to you as part of a package deal. You don't like that. But saying its not available is flat out wrong.

The only complaint that is legitimate is new players not having access to products released in WD because those WD are no longer available. That is a completely legitimate complaint that they should address.

Just because you've repeated yourself 3 times that you have no problem paying for the rules, doesn't make it true. Sure, you'll pay a price - but you seem to want to dictate the terms of the price "a couple of dollards for a pdf" or a photocopy.

I can't go into most stores and dictate on what terms their products are available to me. Its very strange that you seem to think this is okay to do with GW.

Don't pretend like you are new player Insaniak. You could have subscribed to WD at any point if the rules really had this much value to you. The fact that you still haven't subscribed says you don't attribute the value to the product (ie rules) that GW charges, and therefore you don't buy it. Thats ok. But if you don't pay what they want for it, you don't get it. This is how retail works.

WD only rules for a new model (at the time).

rules available for free directly from GW
http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/content/article.jsp?categoryId=cat440244a&aId=15100016a

Entire Expansion Ruleset provided free (was in WD only)
http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/content/article.jsp?categoryId=cat440244a&aId=9800021a

History indicates that they didn't have a problem providing rules. Digital release has now provided the rules to a subset of players that might have missed something the first time around. Still not available to everyone with out a major purchase.

Dracos are you deliberately trolling?

Just incase you somehow aren't, here are the points you are quite clearly missing or choosing to overlook

-White dwarf does not show whats coming next in an issue, you have no way of knowing if something new is coming out rules wise for your army
-White dwarf does not have guaranteed rules in all (or any) issues, so subscribing to maybe get the rules for something that might possibly (noone knows because of GWs great marketing) appear in the next few months doesnt work
-Models which are sold online and instore have no rules, but are still sold as legitimate options for an army with no warning that they have no rules available for them in an armies codex
-Most people do not own an iPad, and do not have the want, need, or means to shell out for one simply for a glorified PDF rulesheet
-Noone is asking for free stuff, they are asking for a way to legitimately buy rules that should be available for models (and an entire army in SoB's case) that are sold online and in GW stores.

What of that do you not understand exactly?

Anyways, I hadnt actually thought of the flyer things until now, but dayuum thats bad! Mabye they'll get added with the next batch of FAQs? kinda needs to happen

Dracos wrote:Insaniak what you don't like is the price of the product. They are offering it to you as part of a package deal. You don't like that. But saying its not available is flat out wrong.

So show me where a new player, or someone who is just now looking to start a marine army, or someone who with the new edition has decided to add fliers to their army, can currently purchase the rules for the Stormtalon?

This has nothing to do with the price. These rules are simply not available.

The only complaint that is legitimate is new players not having access to products released in WD because those WD are no longer available. That is a completely legitimate complaint that they should address.

Which is a part of what I've been saying all along, and you have been arguing against on the basis that White Dwarf was available to subscribers 3 months ago.

Just because you've repeated yourself 3 times that you have no problem paying for the rules, doesn't make it true. Sure, you'll pay a price - but you seem to want to dictate the terms of the price "a couple of dollards for a pdf" or a photocopy.

I can't go into most stores and dictate on what terms their products are available to me. Its very strange that you seem to think this is okay to do with GW.

The what now?

I'm not dictating a price. I'm saying that I would happily pay for a product that isn't currently available, in response to your claim that those wanting GW to make these rules available just want them for free.

Don't pretend like you are new player Insaniak. You could have subscribed to WD at any point if the rules really had this much value to you. The fact that you still haven't subscribed says you don't attribute the value to the product (ie rules) that GW charges, and therefore you don't buy it. Thats ok. But if you don't pay what they want for it, you don't get it. This is how retail works.

I'm not pretending I'm a new player. I'm a current player who would like the Stormtalon rules, which are not currently available.

I don't subscribe to White Dwarf for the same reason I don't buy it at all... for years, there was nothing in it that made it worth buying. If GW had made their customers aware ahead of time that they were intending to start publishing rules in it again, I might have reconsidered... they didn't. They just released the rules unannounced, and they sold out before many players could get a hold of them.

At best, that's poor communication on the part of the company, thanks to their current media blackout rules.

What they expect to achieve by cutting players off from the rules for new models is beyond me.

It's hardly difficult to get the rules.

And I am pretty sure if you contact GW they will sell you the required back issues of WD if you feel uncomfortable about using google... or GW's website...

marielle wrote:And I am pretty sure if you contact GW they will sell you the required back issues of WD if you feel uncomfortable about using google... or GW's website...

A few posters in other threads discussing the fliers have mentioned contacting GW and being told that all backissues were gone.

Bobug wrote:Dracos are you deliberately trolling?

Sure, lets let the trolling accusations fly around! Why not, when someone disagrees its always trolling, MIRITE?

Bobug wrote:-White dwarf does not show whats coming next in an issue, you have no way of knowing if something new is coming out rules wise for your army
-White dwarf does not have guaranteed rules in all (or any) issues, so subscribing to maybe get the rules for something that might possibly (noone knows because of GWs great marketing) appear in the next few months doesnt work

This is quite clearly by design. If they told you which issues had the stuff you wanted in it, it would be pretty hard to sell you on all of them, wouldn't it? Again this is you complaining of how they make them available, not the lack of availability.

Now, I don't agree that this is a sound marketing concept. Put me at the head of GW and you see a lot of things done differently. But then put me at the head of any number of other companies and you'd get a lot of things done differently too. The fact is that we aren't in charge, and its a waste of your time to try and pretend like you are.

Bobug wrote:-Models which are sold online and instore have no rules, but are still sold as legitimate options for an army with no warning that they have no rules available for them in an armies codex

Which models have no rules? Oh you mean the rules that were made available in a format you didn't want to buy. Ok.

Bobug wrote:-Most people do not own an iPad, and do not have the want, need, or means to shell out for one simply for a glorified PDF rulesheet
-Noone is asking for free stuff, they are asking for a way to legitimately buy rules that should be available for models (and an entire army in SoB's case) that are sold online and in GW stores.

Right so the terms that GW wants to sell you these rules is not the terms you want, and therefore its impossible to get them. Got it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

insaniak wrote:At best, that's poor communication on the part of the company, thanks to their current media blackout rules.

What they expect to achieve by cutting players off from the rules for new models is beyond me.

I completely agree with you here. Their marketing is suspect.

I think its pretty easy to see that they want to increase WD subscriptions, and having limited release content seems like a great way to do it.

I don't happen to agree that this is a sound course of action, but then I don't get to decide what they do.

Not complaining simply asking if it is still possible if it will show up on the website or will we be waiting for the new SM book for the Stormtalon rules in print? I'm not sure what is being argued but I was just questioning that aspect of the OP... there is no word officially when the rules will appear again right? (sorry if I missed it in the quote fighting guys)

Dracos wrote:This is quite clearly by design. If they told you which issues had the stuff you wanted in it, it would be pretty hard to sell you on all of them, wouldn't it?

You know what makes it even harder? When GW stopped the regular Chapter Approved articles several years ago, they specifically said that they wouldn't be introducing new unit rules in White Dwarf any more, because it got too hard for people to keep track of them.

So making some sort of announcement to the effect that this policy had changed before releasing an issue with new rules in it might have made a difference to those deciding whether or not to subscribe...

Quit feeding the parasprites.

well Draco, answer me this, How am I supposed to play SOB or marines with the storm talon? I dont have an Ipad and cant afford to pay the price to buy the subscription all at once (can buy white dwarfs here and there though)... I guess I just dont get your frame of mind on this issue :/

BewareOfTom wrote: I dont have an Ipad and cant afford to pay the price to buy the subscription all at once (can buy white dwarfs here and there though)... I guess I just dont get your frame of mind on this issue :/

Not being able to afford it isn't really the issue. Playing the game requires paying for stuff.

Likewise, the iPad thing is annoying for those of us who don't have one, but at least the rules released for iPad are available. It's your choice whether or not to purchase an iPad, or wait and see if they release them in a different format down the track


The subscription thing is a red herring, though. Suggesting that people should have had a subscription in the hope of getting rules despite GW saying they wouldn't be publishing rules like that in White Dwarf is just missing the point of what people are complaining about.


It's the rules that aren't available at all that are the real issue.

The problems for me are those:

GW sell miniatures

GW sell crap rules for use with those miniatures

GW charge a big amount of money for those crap rules

Those crap rules are changed (but not improved) each 4 or so years

When the crap rules are changed, you need to buy them all again from GW

GW claim to sell miniatures, not rules

Now, GW want to start to sell new crap rules, before every big change happens

GW miniatures are great, GW rules are crap

GW should sell miniatures and give rules for free

insaniak - oh I know, its just me not affording it was a reply to "just get the subscription"

insaniak wrote:

marielle wrote:And I am pretty sure if you contact GW they will sell you the required back issues of WD if you feel uncomfortable about using google... or GW's website...

A few posters in other threads discussing the fliers have mentioned contacting GW and being told that all backissues were gone.

Am I to believe my eyes on the shelves of Boyes or someone I have never met on the interwebz?

Shelf is different than mail/web order.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Although, you might want to pick up those shelf issues and eBay them.

I have both of the WD's the SoB codex is in. I'd even pay if GW released the two put together into some sort of binder or something. Half the reason is I wouldn't have to flick through the crap so much to get to it and that it may indeed be available to people who have not yet learned to navigate the fourth dimension. Maybe one day someone will yet I highly doubt the thought of "oh I must really buy that issue of White Dwarf for the rules and quality material" would even cross their mind for a second. The current state of WD would very much be afraid of time travel.

If they do indeed add more rules into WD to try and bring some worthwhile content back to it, I could probably see them releasing an annual or so book with the rules in them depending on how many they release. Digital would be much easier and probably likely though. But, hopefully they realise how annoying the issue is.

chromedog wrote:I used to have a subscription to WD.

It wasn't a guarantee you WOULD get an issue, or even that you'd get it BEFORE the news-stands. Indeed, in the 7 or so years I had subscriptions for, it wasn't an uncommon thing to not get at least one issue per subscription.

After complaining to them (politely. The more steamed I get, the more polite I get. I was VERY polite.) I ended up getting a 3 month extension to the subscription per missed issue. I still didn't get those issues.

I'm not about to get an overpriced toy (ipad)* just to get that information that I should have received as a subscriber.


*I've worked in Apple's service department, it has forever soured me on EVER using one of their products, let alone forking over the readies for one.

Well, clearly, that's your own fault.
You should have had two subscriptions, or possibly even three, as a backup in case one of your catalogs wasn't delivered.

Eric

And what about those of us that did buy the WD for the Sisters dex and misplaced one of the copies. No way to get them now. I emailed GW asking if the PDF dex was going to be out up and the answer I recieved was" good idea we will think about it"

I Keep my sisters wds safe and use a printed copy for general play.

Ebay is a wonderful thing. Currently at least 2 issues of White Dwarf 390 are on there. A quick google search shows you pictures of the pages you need, for free. The information is not hard to get, just takes a bit more searching than Joe-Newbie would know to do.

Dracos, when everyone is picking apart your argument over and over again, thinking you are crazy, and accusing you of trolling, it might indicate there are flaws in your argument. Take a step back and stop trying to be right.


Right now there is a system set up by GW where new rules for flyers (like the storm talon and dakka jet) are only available to WD buyers at the month of release.

You are arguing that since that is the system in place that we should just accept it and not complain. That's not what this thread is about though. People are complaining about that, and it is a legitimate complaint. We are aware that it is GW's right to charge for whatever rules and release them for whatever limited time they want, but it is still a daft business practice.

Dracos wrote:And you guys are acting like you're surprised that GW isn't giving you shat for free. AFAIK it would be against everything we know about GW for that to happen.
...
I'd also like to get free rules, and hell why not throw some free models, paints and an apple pie in because I want it.

Go to GW's website. Pay $54 for a Space Marine Stormtalon Gunship. On that page, you'll see the following:

"The rules for this kit are available in June's White Dwarf, so make sure you pick up a copy!"

In case you need it spelled out for you, it's not people who want something for free. The people who pay $54 for the model would like to have the rules so they can play it in their games.

Sorry for the interruption. Please resume your trolling, you do seem to have a knack for it tonight.

Lormax wrote:Ebay is a wonderful thing. Currently at least 2 issues of White Dwarf 390 are on there. A quick google search shows you pictures of the pages you need, for free. The information is not hard to get, just takes a bit more searching than Joe-Newbie would know to do.

yeah, but it's not exactly within dakka's policy to encourage violating laws. Copying things like that is one of them. And feebay is also always a risk too.... then let's not forget about the starving GW employees who we are cheating from dinner by not paying directly to GW

What about GW putting rules cards in the boxes and blisters like PP does?
That would take care of those who didn't catch the latest WD, and they could still sell codexes like PP.

Y'know, this thread seems vaguely familiar, I feel I've heard this argument before...


"But Mr Dent, the plans have been available in the local planning office for the last nine months."

"Oh yes, well as soon as I heard I went straight round to see them, yesterday afternoon. You hadn't exactly gone out of your way to call attention to them, had you? I mean, like actually telling anybody or anything."

"But the plans were on display ..."

"On display? I eventually had to go down to the cellar to find them."

"That's the display department."

"With a flashlight."

"Ah, well the lights had probably gone."

"So had the stairs."

"But look, you found the notice didn't you?"

"Yes," said Arthur, "yes I did. It was on display in the bottom of a locked filing cabinet stuck in a disused lavatory with a sign on the door saying 'Beware of the Leopard'."

Relapse wrote:What about GW putting rules cards in the boxes and blisters like PP does?
That would take care of those who didn't catch the latest WD, and they could still sell codexes like PP.

Back in second edition the rules used to be printed on the a datacard, sometimes right on the outside of the box.

So whenever you bought a newly released vehicle you always had the rules to go with it. Why the abandoned this policy is beyond me.

It seems like bringing it back would go a ways toward helping people out and encouraging fence sitters to buy a model they otherwise wouldn't.

Relapse wrote:What about GW putting rules cards in the boxes and blisters like PP does?
That would take care of those who didn't catch the latest WD, and they could still sell codexes like PP.

the problem becomes with multi-purpose units. IG squad is the clearest example. You'd need to include cards for Senior command, Junior command, Veterans, Penal legion, Regulars and whiteshields, maybe even storm troopers. The same stock model can be used any which way in an army. It's not a realistic solution for GW to switch that way. GW's game is not built well to benefit from stat cards.

I would prefer it if GW sold binder-format codices, with all of the sheets laminated. That way they can update on the go, and release updated versions along with the update sheets/packages. The rules are definately cumbersome enough to benefit from just such a system which is used in every updating editions that lawyers use.

@ Mastiff:
you made my night mate.

I would prefer it if GW gives free, solid rules. But... oh well.

Right up front - I think GW should eventually put the flyer rules on their website as a free .pdf, and keep charging for their iPad version as it has (presumably) extra dohickies. This will allow everyone to buy and play with GWs plastic toys.

SoB? Probably worth a .pdf at some stage, but lets face it - they're currently such a woefully supported army that new players aren't going to be looking for them until they finally compile a printed codex, so no enormous problem there.

But here's the thing. I don't think they should release this stuff for free right away. Remember Spearhead? Remember the BA codex? The "White Dwarf exclusives" that almost instantly ended up as .pdfs on the GW website? Weren't really all that exclusive, were they.

I've been a subscriber for years. And for years, People On The Internet have decried that it's the worst magazine in existence, that it's just a catalogue etc. I still enjoy flicking through it. Guess that makes me an idiot by the standards of The Internet People, right?

Well, now I have something you don't. Because you decided that the price was wrong for you, and that you'd prefer to pay a couple of quid every now and then. And it looks like it'll stay as something you don't have for a while, though hopefully not forever.

Tough.

You moan about how bad WD is, and that people shouldn't subscribe, and that it doesn't have rules in it. Then it changes, so you moan about that instead.

Tough.

Get a subscription. If more people subscribe now that they've started putting rules in, maybe they'll put more rules in since it clearly works as a marketing tool.

Or, keep moaning on the internet. Go ahead.

If all this makes me a troll, so be it, but remember that I can regenerate from everything but fire and spew acidic vomit on you at will.

You're not a troll, just expression your opinion as one should from time to time. The main difference I guess is just how you go about it.

pretre wrote:Shelf is different than mail/web order.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Although, you might want to pick up those shelf issues and eBay them.

Indeed it is, but in a month or so those magazines will be returned to GW and become mail order.

As for ebay, I am beginning to suspect that talking up ebay prices is what this thread is about - given that we are talking about freely available information.

Graphite wrote:But here's the thing. I don't think they should release this stuff for free right away. Remember Spearhead? Remember the BA codex? The "White Dwarf exclusives" that almost instantly ended up as .pdfs on the GW website? Weren't really all that exclusive, were they.

Were they actually advertised as White Dwarf Exclusives?

You moan about how bad WD is, and that people shouldn't subscribe, and that it doesn't have rules in it. Then it changes, so you moan about that instead.

Actually, I don't recall ever complaining about how bad White Dwarf is. When it reached a point where I realised that I wasn't really doing anything more than flicking through it and then putting it on a shelf (which came some time after GW announced that they would no longer be printing rules supplements in it) I just stopped buying it.

I'm most certainly not complaining about them actually returning to including useful content in the magazine. Just about them springing it out unannounced, and not printing enough of them to satisfy the demand.

Having the rules a new model only available in a publication that is no longer in print is lunacy.


Although regardless of how many rules they print in it, I'm unlikely to seriously consider a subscription until they seriously reconsider their policy of shipping White Dwarf so that it reaches subscribers after the street date.

Maybe the reason those issues are so hard to find/sold out IS time travel! They've come back to buy out all the good WDs.

[/tinfoilhat]

I've got a tight budget. I thought about buying the WD for the rules, but was on the fence about the storm talon anyway, and wanted to see how the core rules for flyers was going to affect them before dropping the cash on one. I have the luxury, as a SM player, that I'll probably get a new codex at the start of the edition, which should have the rules baked in. Now that I've seen the 6th ed rules, the talon has been bumped to the top of my need-to-buy list. I've seen the rules, but don't have an official copy. GW (or my FLGS) is missing out on selling me a model, as I don't have formal rules for it. Once I get published rules, GW will get my money.

AndrewC wrote:So will we then see a refusal to play with models with WD rules only?

I'm thinking about doing it just out of spite now.

insaniak wrote:Having the rules a new model only available in a publication that is no longer in print is lunacy.

But GW is a model company! They exist only to make and sell models! Stop acting like you're entitled to rules for everything, you shouldn't be buying the models with the sole intention of being able to use them in games!

I can see some sense in not making the rules available at first, in order to make sure that the relevant White Dwarf has a chance to sell.
The iPad digital copy is another valid solution, as it's priced individually - but it's implemented badly, as it only opens the option to a limited portion of the playerbase.
In my eyes there is no issue with whether or not the rules should be free - since we do already pay for the rulebooks and codexes, a nominal sum would be fine.

The issue here is the continued non-availability of these rules to a majority of the playerbase. Time enough has passed for our two main examples to be released on a wider basis - that issue of White Dwarf is no longer stocked in retail, and as mentioned the iPad release alone is not available to enough of the playerbase. The Sisters of Battle rules are in an even worse state, as the White Dwarf is presumably completely out of print even for back-orders and there is NO digital copy.

There is precedent for this in the past, with .pdf versions of codexes, which are available to a large majority of the playerbase (true there will be a minority without Internet access but trying to cater for these smaller numbers would be insanity from a business sensibility). The .pdf version could be released for a price, which would not only protect the iPad sales but would actually allow for MORE sales to those players without iPads.

Dracos - the argument to subscribe to White Dwarf purely for the sake of these rules is ridiculous for a number of reasons. One, you're still not guaranteed to receive a copy and you still have no alternative if that proves to be the case. Two, it is bad business sense for the rules not to be available in some form after the White Dwarf sales as it prevents further sales of the models in question. Three, the cost of a subscription is far too much to ask for access to these rules. I liken it to making it so that you can only get a yellow paint pot if you buy a set of 20 (and the pricing of that example isn't too far off, either).

"to say they are not available is just false, they are just not available in the medium or payment method you desire."

Remember that we are GW's customers, they have a responsibility to make the rules for their models available (whether free or not) if they want us to buy them for gaming with. Would you buy yourself a Sisters of Battle army if you couldn't get hold of the rules? It's the same story here. People who want to use the new flyers but can't get the rules without forking out for a subscription they don't want will be put off from buying them at all. I know I am.

It's all a ploy by GW legal department to promote piracy of said rules so they can stay employed sending cease and desist letters.

On a more serious note, what is the issue number with the flyers rules ? I'll never track them down if I don't at least know the issue number.

Personally I feel that making new rules available only for a short period of time in print or via an expensive gadget is counter intuitive to the we write "rules to sell models" stance.

Should they be available as a legal PDF? I believe so.

Should they charge for this PDF? If they want, it is their creative product after all. Personal I think the company would benefit from supplying all their rules as a free PDFs especially if they are trying to encourage us to buy an allied faction for our army's. Think of the good will it would generate and lets be honest we can all get them free without much effort anyway. I doubt the sale of codex and rulebooks make them that much money anyway.

Oh and for those that care, didn't buy and now want the WD with the flyer rules in, my local store has loads. They don't have them for sale on the online store but give them a call and I am sure they will take payment over the phone and post one out.

http://www.4tk.co.uk/store/

I'd just like to add on a bit here:

While it may feel good to get things off your chest by posting complaints about GW, it does not help your situation in any way.

GW does lots of things that people don't like. I don't like that I don't have access to the stormtalon rules, I didn't buy the WD with the rules in it either. It didn't sell out right away locally, it was still there a while after it came out but I didn't want to buy it. I don't like WD in general so I never buy it. But not buying it, and not subscribing to it is a choice I made. It has consequences that I have to live with. I can't say the possibility didn't exist for me to get it, because I had the option to subscribe (ya right) or just buy the one issue that had the couple pages I wanted. Now I have to wait for them to make it available in some other format or just live with not having it.

There is a certain level of personal responsibility here that no one will accept. Not subscribing or buying was a personal choice and you have to live with it. There was an option, and you didn't take it.

The point is that you have to recognize that GW is a sovereign entity and they are marketing their products in a way they feel is best for them. That's right, they are not doing any of their players any favours.

I submit that the guys at GW making their marketing decisions literally do not care if you have the rules you want. They only care if they are selling enough copies of WD and the models. You could even argue (likely accurately) that they are harming themselves economically with their marketing.

GW certainly could make it easier to obtain, and even purchase WD back issues or articles found therein. They have chosen not to, presumably because they believe it will be the best choice for them. You are free (and encouraged!) to disagree with them on their decisions.

However, the only way you have a chance of getting your dislike of a GW practice corrected is by taking it up with GW. Complaining on the internet about this is useless.

poda_t wrote:

Relapse wrote:What about GW putting rules cards in the boxes and blisters like PP does?
That would take care of those who didn't catch the latest WD, and they could still sell codexes like PP.

the problem becomes with multi-purpose units. IG squad is the clearest example. You'd need to include cards for Senior command, Junior command, Veterans, Penal legion, Regulars and whiteshields, maybe even storm troopers. The same stock model can be used any which way in an army. It's not a realistic solution for GW to switch that way. GW's game is not built well to benefit from stat cards.

I would prefer it if GW sold binder-format codices, with all of the sheets laminated. That way they can update on the go, and release updated versions along with the update sheets/packages. The rules are definately cumbersome enough to benefit from just such a system which is used in every updating editions that lawyers use.

@ Mastiff:
you made my night mate.

Spartan puts multiple cards in their packs for units that can be configured in multiple ways and it seems to work well. In my mind, if GW can include extra bits in a kit that can be configured as different unit types, cards would be no problem.

I like your idea of the binder format, also.

Dracos wrote:There is a certain level of personal responsibility here that no one will accept.

That's because this isn't an issue of personal responsibility.


GW are selling a game. Currently, they are selling a particular brand new model for which the rules are already out of print.

I don't have a 'personal responsibility' to buy GW's product, either the model or the rules. I can do so if I choose.... but there is no obligation for me to do so. If there is any 'responsibility' involved, it is GW's... they have a responsibility to adequately support the products they sell. By selling gaming models without rules to actually using them, they are arguably not supporting that product.

It's not up to the players to try psychically devine how GW are going to choose (or not) to release the rules for their models. We shouldn't feel obligated to go out and buy a particular publication for the single week that it will be available on the off-chance that GW will choose to not reprint a rules article from that publication anywhere else. It's GW's responsibility to communicate with their customers, and make it clear just when and where those rules will be available if they expect people to purchase the model.

Dracos wrote:However, the only way you have a chance of getting your dislike of a GW practice corrected is by taking it up with GW. Complaining on the internet about this is useless.

You make it sound like you can't do both. Complaining here doesn't mean that people aren't also taking up the issue with GW.

Dracos wrote:
There is a certain level of personal responsibility here that no one will accept. Not subscribing or buying was a personal choice and you have to live with it. There was an option, and you didn't take it.

No, there's absolutely no personal responsibility.

When the White Dwarf came out, I couldn't field a Storm Talon in my army (Space Wolves). A couple of months later, they change their mind with the release of 6th edition. I can now field it as an ally. That was GW's decision to change the rules, not mine.

Not buying insurance is an action I'll take personal responsibility for. Not buying the rules for a model that I can't use is not.

Suggesting that we as customers need to execise our "personal responsibility" by purchasing every issue of White Dwarf if we want access to rules for models we may never buy, or give up the right to complain, is justifying extortion. They have useful rules, what, once every two years? "Personal responsibility" is not buying lottery tickets on the off-chance it could some day pay off the mortgage.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

poda_t wrote:
@ Mastiff:
you made my night mate.

Mission accomplished

Mastiff wrote: "Personal responsibility" is not buying lottery tickets on the off-chance it could some day pay off the mortgage.

Hey... :(

poda_t wrote:

Lormax wrote:Ebay is a wonderful thing. Currently at least 2 issues of White Dwarf 390 are on there. A quick google search shows you pictures of the pages you need, for free. The information is not hard to get, just takes a bit more searching than Joe-Newbie would know to do.

yeah, but it's not exactly within dakka's policy to encourage violating laws. Copying things like that is one of them. And feebay is also always a risk too.... then let's not forget about the starving GW employees who we are cheating from dinner by not paying directly to GW

Sorry, but no. Ebay is totally on the side of the buyer, hands down. Ask any seller, they'll agree. First, you get ebay policies. THEN you get Paypal policies. You are VERY protected nowadays with buying on Ebay.

The starving GW employees? Again, no. They've already sold out of the White Dwarf that has the rules. They already sold out of the Sisters of Battle rules. Anyone that was entitled to a bonus from those sales has either A) Gotten them or B) Getting them. Could they have gotten a bigger bonus if they increased the production of that issue of the mag? Possibly. They may have lost whatever bonus they earned on the increased production of the next issue. Oh wait, what am I talking about, they don't get a bonus. Your last point means nothing, sorry friend.

Lormax wrote:

poda_t wrote:

Lormax wrote:Ebay is a wonderful thing. Currently at least 2 issues of White Dwarf 390 are on there. A quick google search shows you pictures of the pages you need, for free. The information is not hard to get, just takes a bit more searching than Joe-Newbie would know to do.

yeah, but it's not exactly within dakka's policy to encourage violating laws. Copying things like that is one of them. And feebay is also always a risk too.... then let's not forget about the starving GW employees who we are cheating from dinner by not paying directly to GW

Sorry, but no. Ebay is totally on the side of the buyer, hands down. Ask any seller, they'll agree. First, you get ebay policies. THEN you get Paypal policies. You are VERY protected nowadays with buying on Ebay.

The starving GW employees? Again, no. They've already sold out of the White Dwarf that has the rules. They already sold out of the Sisters of Battle rules. Anyone that was entitled to a bonus from those sales has either A) Gotten them or B) Getting them. Could they have gotten a bigger bonus if they increased the production of that issue of the mag? Possibly. They may have lost whatever bonus they earned on the increased production of the next issue. Oh wait, what am I talking about, they don't get a bonus. Your last point means nothing, sorry friend.

you missed that tongue in my cheek when i got to the starving employees bit.

insaniak wrote:Actually, I don't recall ever complaining about how bad White Dwarf is. When it reached a point where I realised that I wasn't really doing anything more than flicking through it and then putting it on a shelf (which came some time after GW announced that they would no longer be printing rules supplements in it) I just stopped buying it.

Ahem, Nightspinner much?



Automatically Appended Next Post:

poda_t wrote:

Lormax wrote:

poda_t wrote:

Lormax wrote:Ebay is a wonderful thing. Currently at least 2 issues of White Dwarf 390 are on there. A quick google search shows you pictures of the pages you need, for free. The information is not hard to get, just takes a bit more searching than Joe-Newbie would know to do.

yeah, but it's not exactly within dakka's policy to encourage violating laws. Copying things like that is one of them. And feebay is also always a risk too.... then let's not forget about the starving GW employees who we are cheating from dinner by not paying directly to GW

Sorry, but no. Ebay is totally on the side of the buyer, hands down. Ask any seller, they'll agree. First, you get ebay policies. THEN you get Paypal policies. You are VERY protected nowadays with buying on Ebay.

The starving GW employees? Again, no. They've already sold out of the White Dwarf that has the rules. They already sold out of the Sisters of Battle rules. Anyone that was entitled to a bonus from those sales has either A) Gotten them or B) Getting them. Could they have gotten a bigger bonus if they increased the production of that issue of the mag? Possibly. They may have lost whatever bonus they earned on the increased production of the next issue. Oh wait, what am I talking about, they don't get a bonus. Your last point means nothing, sorry friend.

you missed that tongue in my cheek when i got to the starving employees bit.

Fair enough, I stand successfully trolled But the first part I stand by. Ebay is very safe for a buyer.

I personally think that GW are wiping everything that was free of their website, for example remember the loads of painting articles that were taken off because there was a new paint range. They could of easily re-made them and put them up for free, but instead they remade them and shoved them in some book to try and take people's money. Also with the Sisters of Battle, I was kinda hoping it would be put up in a PDF instead strewn in a White Dwarf.

Dracos wrote:Hint: They have a foolproof option for you to never miss a WD rules update. Its called a subscription.

Just because you don't like that option does not mean its not available.

I don't like it, but that doesn't mean its not an option. You guys are claiming you have no option, but really you just dont like the option that you have.

So what you're saying is, to get the one issue with the rules that I want, I have to put up with the monthly catalogue crap they peddle for the rest of the year? Now that is value for money!

WaaaaghLord wrote:

Dracos wrote:Hint: They have a foolproof option for you to never miss a WD rules update. Its called a subscription.

Just because you don't like that option does not mean its not available.

I don't like it, but that doesn't mean its not an option. You guys are claiming you have no option, but really you just dont like the option that you have.

So what you're saying is, to get the one issue with the rules that I want, I have to put up with the monthly catalogue crap they peddle for the rest of the year? Now that is value for money!

Precisely, most of the time there is no guaranteeing that there will be a new model with new rules in the first place...

insaniak wrote:

Dracos wrote:There is a certain level of personal responsibility here that no one will accept.

That's because this isn't an issue of personal responsibility.


GW are selling a game. Currently, they are selling a particular brand new model for which the rules are already out of print.

I don't have a 'personal responsibility' to buy GW's product, either the model or the rules. I can do so if I choose.... but there is no obligation for me to do so. If there is any 'responsibility' involved, it is GW's... they have a responsibility to adequately support the products they sell. By selling gaming models without rules to actually using them, they are arguably not supporting that product.

It's not up to the players to try psychically devine how GW are going to choose (or not) to release the rules for their models. We shouldn't feel obligated to go out and buy a particular publication for the single week that it will be available on the off-chance that GW will choose to not reprint a rules article from that publication anywhere else. It's GW's responsibility to communicate with their customers, and make it clear just when and where those rules will be available if they expect people to purchase the model.

I agree with what Insaniak is saying. I am exercising my right to not purchase a Stormtalon or Dakkajet because I do not have a way to get the rules.
I do own a Sisters army, but have no idea what the current rules are.
The local GW didn't even get copies for the shelf.

Though I disagree with the idea of paying a few bucks for the new flyer rules article.
Put them in a book, and I would have no problem with buying it if it is an army I want.
But I really don't want my tabletop gaming to start with micro transactions.
And I do not see the value in spending $9 for a single page out of a white dwarf.

Basic questions for people saying buy white dwarf and the rules are avalable online.

Lets say I'm 14, starting a new Ork army. For my birthday I get a battleforce, a codex and a jet online for £100. Where do I get the rules from? Illigal copy online? My parants would kill me for braking the law. Ipad version? I don't have £500 to spend on an ipad. White dwarf? Do you have a time macine to go back and get one?

I'm non of those. I do have an ipad, i do have a copy and i do know where to get one, but the fact is a large chunk of the player base cannot get the rules.

I have emailed GW CS and put the question to them and will let you know what I get back.

Steve steveson wrote:Basic questions for people saying buy white dwarf and the rules are avalable online.

Lets say I'm 14, starting a new Ork army. For my birthday I get a battleforce, a codex and a jet online for £100. Where do I get the rules from? Illigal copy online? My parants would kill me for braking the law. Ipad version? I don't have £500 to spend on an ipad. White dwarf? Do you have a time macine to go back and get one?

I'm non of those. I do have an ipad, i do have a copy and i do know where to get one, but the fact is a large chunk of the player base cannot get the rules.

I have emailed GW CS and put the question to them and will let you know what I get back.

How about clicking on this link - http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?catId=cat440349a&prodId=prod1620095a

And bingo GW will send you a copy of WD 390.

Problem solved.

Graphite wrote:Right up front - I think GW should eventually put the flyer rules on their website as a free .pdf, and keep charging for their iPad version as it has (presumably) extra dohickies. This will allow everyone to buy and play with GWs plastic toys.

SoB? Probably worth a .pdf at some stage, but lets face it - they're currently such a woefully supported army that new players aren't going to be looking for them until they finally compile a printed codex, so no enormous problem there.

But here's the thing. I don't think they should release this stuff for free right away. Remember Spearhead? Remember the BA codex? The "White Dwarf exclusives" that almost instantly ended up as .pdfs on the GW website? Weren't really all that exclusive, were they.

I've been a subscriber for years. And for years, People On The Internet have decried that it's the worst magazine in existence, that it's just a catalogue etc. I still enjoy flicking through it. Guess that makes me an idiot by the standards of The Internet People, right?

Well, now I have something you don't. Because you decided that the price was wrong for you, and that you'd prefer to pay a couple of quid every now and then. And it looks like it'll stay as something you don't have for a while, though hopefully not forever.

Tough.

You moan about how bad WD is, and that people shouldn't subscribe, and that it doesn't have rules in it. Then it changes, so you moan about that instead.

Tough.

Get a subscription. If more people subscribe now that they've started putting rules in, maybe they'll put more rules in since it clearly works as a marketing tool.

Or, keep moaning on the internet. Go ahead.

If all this makes me a troll, so be it, but remember that I can regenerate from everything but fire and spew acidic vomit on you at will.

You are not a troll, just uninformed and drinking too deeply from the kool aid...

I really like how you decry everyone elses opinion that overcharged gak is overcharged gak, then tell them tough.


Other then that, you payed for an overpriced sales catalogue. I can see how you'd be bitter with that.

Dracos wrote:Don't want to subscribe to WD? Then don't.

But if you fail to subscribe, you give up the ability to legitimately complain that an item included in the subscription is unavailable to you.

Its really just that simple.

Sorry you don't like the option GW is giving you.

I'd also like to get free rules, and hell why not throw some free models, paints and an apple pie in because I want it.

It's funny how through all of this you refuse to address the problem of new players having no rules available to them.

Can't white-knight your way out of that one huh?

marielle wrote:

How about clicking on this link - http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?catId=cat440349a&prodId=prod1620095a

And bingo GW will send you a copy of WD 390.

Problem solved.

And BINGO I get redirected to http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/home.jsp because 390 is out of print/stock !!!

Dracos wrote:I'd just like to add on a bit here:

While it may feel good to get things off your chest by posting complaints about GW, it does not help your situation in any way.

GW does lots of things that people don't like. I don't like that I don't have access to the stormtalon rules, I didn't buy the WD with the rules in it either. It didn't sell out right away locally, it was still there a while after it came out but I didn't want to buy it. I don't like WD in general so I never buy it. But not buying it, and not subscribing to it is a choice I made. It has consequences that I have to live with. I can't say the possibility didn't exist for me to get it, because I had the option to subscribe (ya right) or just buy the one issue that had the couple pages I wanted. Now I have to wait for them to make it available in some other format or just live with not having it.

There is a certain level of personal responsibility here that no one will accept. Not subscribing or buying was a personal choice and you have to live with it. There was an option, and you didn't take it.

The point is that you have to recognize that GW is a sovereign entity and they are marketing their products in a way they feel is best for them. That's right, they are not doing any of their players any favours.

I submit that the guys at GW making their marketing decisions literally do not care if you have the rules you want. They only care if they are selling enough copies of WD and the models. You could even argue (likely accurately) that they are harming themselves economically with their marketing.

GW certainly could make it easier to obtain, and even purchase WD back issues or articles found therein. They have chosen not to, presumably because they believe it will be the best choice for them. You are free (and encouraged!) to disagree with them on their decisions.

However, the only way you have a chance of getting your dislike of a GW practice corrected is by taking it up with GW. Complaining on the internet about this is useless.

Just because you might have some misplaced obligation to pay for an overpriced catalogue with nothing in it, for the off chance that they MIGHT decide one day to grace you with something worth reading, I, for one, am not. As a paying consumer I will excersize my right as the consumer to complain about anything I want to. GW is too big for thier britches and will continue to lose money in sales as they pee all over thier own shoes on this rag. If I as a slighted customer complain, thats my right. Theres an old saying in sales- make a good sale, they tell thier friends, make a bad one, they tell everyone...

Want my money, produce quality product, and if not, your taking it in the hindquarters whenever I feel like talking about it. Don't like it, .... that's Tough, too.

The beatings will continue until moral improves.

So i havent played 40k in 2 years.

I have a full blood angels army.

How do i get the new storm things rules? Is my only option ebay or to pirate the rules?

My friend has 3k + points of sisters. We are back after 2 years. How does he get his rules?

Not troling by the way. How do i get them?

Money isnt an issue. But my only option is spending $600 on a ipad or ebay? Really?
Oh... my bad.. i should of had a subscription for the 2 years we didnt play? How.stupid does that sound...

I just stabbed my nose into GW's site.

Free rules look like they're on the way out. I don't remember having to pay $70 for the necromunda rulebook. I recall having to spend a few minutes downloading it though.

and i just bothered to have a look at the 6th edition rulebook. It almost gave me a heart attack.

adamsouza wrote:

marielle wrote:

How about clicking on this link - http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?catId=cat440349a&prodId=prod1620095a

And bingo GW will send you a copy of WD 390.

Problem solved.

And BINGO I get redirected to http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/home.jsp because 390 is out of print/stock !!!

Not on the UK site.

marielle wrote:
How about clicking on this link - http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?catId=cat440349a&prodId=prod1620095a

And bingo GW will send you a copy of WD 390.

Problem solved.

Sure, let's try that link:

White Dwarf 390

White Dwarf is Games Workshop's full-colour monthly hobby magazine. Every issue is packed with exciting articles and features, including: hobby tutorials, stage-by-stage painting guides, a battle report and much more. Plus, you'll be able to see photos of all the latest Citadel miniatures and read exactly what the Studio designers, writers and artists had in mind for an army.

Inside this month's issue:

There is Only War: Simon Grant takes a look at the brand new Warhammer 40,000 rulebook, and talks to the various people responsible for its design.

You'll also find full details of all the latest releases and news, plus a directory featuring all of the hobby activities in your local area.
Availability: No Longer Available
Part Code: 13249999390

Any other suggestions? (FWIW, it was in #389 overseas, but I checked that as well)

You don't need to get a subscription to mae sure you don't miss out on rules to be honest.

Even without frequenting this site, it's pretty obvious when a WD with rules in comes out. Then, once you know one has, you can buy it.

The Shadow wrote:You don't need to get a subscription to mae sure you don't miss out on rules to be honest.

Even without frequenting this site, it's pretty obvious when a WD with rules in comes out. Then, once you know one has, you can buy it.

And if you don't need the rules at the time they are released? If you choose to pick up the model a few months later? You're out $54 plus shipping for a model you can't use in the game it was created for.

I don't have a problem with companies releasing Special Edition, time-limited products, but for ####'s sake let people know up front they don't have all the pieces they need to play.

I know in Great Britain you can probably pick up a copy at your local chemists. In the colonies, it is much harder to find, in part because the specialist hobby shops that carry them have seen how poorly it sells. The costs are higher over here, and people would rather not spend $11 for advertising.

marielle wrote:

adamsouza wrote:

marielle wrote:

How about clicking on this link - http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?catId=cat440349a&prodId=prod1620095a

And bingo GW will send you a copy of WD 390.

Problem solved.

And BINGO I get redirected to http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/home.jsp because 390 is out of print/stock !!!

Not on the UK site.

Ok, fine, but what about when it dose go out of stock, or it you don't live in the UK? The face remains that WD 390 will not be avalable forever and the 14 year old I was talking about will not be able to get it for long. Saying you can get back orders is not an answer. I would have no problem if there was a book of rules for the flyers for sale, or some such, but as it stands if you want to use one model soon you will need a £400 device or a time machine.

The Shadow wrote:You don't need to get a subscription to mae sure you don't miss out on rules to be honest.

Even without frequenting this site, it's pretty obvious when a WD with rules in comes out. Then, once you know one has, you can buy it.

Which dosn't solve the problem of what to do if you want to buy the model once the WD is out of stock, or if your local shop sells out.

What if you arent currently playing and rules come out.. wd sells out? Then you start. Go buy a fancy model. Then have no rules?

adamsouza wrote:

marielle wrote:

How about clicking on this link - http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?catId=cat440349a&prodId=prod1620095a

And bingo GW will send you a copy of WD 390.

Problem solved.

And BINGO I get redirected to http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/home.jsp because 390 is out of print/stock !!!

Not for me it isn't.

Steve steveson wrote:Ok, fine, but what about when it dose go out of stock, or it you don't live in the UK? The face remains that WD 390 will not be avalable forever and the 14 year old I was talking about will not be able to get it for long. Saying you can get back orders is not an answer. I would have no problem if there was a book of rules for the flyers for sale, or some such, but as it stands if you want to use one model soon you will need a £400 device or a time machine.

Can't you order from where ever? There was someone on here the other day saying they ordered from the UK site in Australia.

As to your mental experiment - are we assuming that this 14 year old cannot use the internet? I note that in your careful setting up of this trap, you highlighted illegality as not permissible - so I guessing we are not allowed to suggest torrents, sribd and the like. But I googled ork bomba rules and found numerous blogs with perfectly readable photos of the relevant WD pages, some had the stats written up. These were widely read community blogs, and some of the posts dated from pre-release and referred to the 'leak' on Beasts of War - which raises questions of whether this mythical 14 year old is allowed to watch youtube?

Still if it makes you happy - yes if you have absolutely no intelligence, no friends, and a moral code that forbids you breaking any kind of trademark or copyright rule, then the only way to find out the rules is by a £400 device or a time machine.

Squigsquasher wrote:

adamsouza wrote:

marielle wrote:

How about clicking on this link - http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?catId=cat440349a&prodId=prod1620095a

And bingo GW will send you a copy of WD 390.

Problem solved.

And BINGO I get redirected to http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/home.jsp because 390 is out of print/stock !!!

Not for me it isn't.

Well good for you. In the US it's sold out.

Also marielle it's against forum rules to suggest that someone illegally download GW rules (or anything really), so you may not want to suggest that based on that alone. But no, I don't think "Just go steal them!" is a viable alternative.

Heh, heh, heh.

Am I glad to be British (and t have a subscription).

marielle wrote:I note that in your careful setting up of this trap, you highlighted illegality as not permissible.

Yes, the carefully constructed argument requires the rules to be obtained legally. Good on you for seeing through that ingenious mental trap.

marielle wrote:

Steve steveson wrote:Ok, fine, but what about when it dose go out of stock, or it you don't live in the UK? The face remains that WD 390 will not be avalable forever and the 14 year old I was talking about will not be able to get it for long. Saying you can get back orders is not an answer. I would have no problem if there was a book of rules for the flyers for sale, or some such, but as it stands if you want to use one model soon you will need a £400 device or a time machine.

Can't you order from where ever? There was someone on here the other day saying they ordered from the UK site in Australia.

As to your mental experiment - are we assuming that this 14 year old cannot use the internet? I note that in your careful setting up of this trap, you highlighted illegality as not permissible ...

Still if it makes you happy - yes if you have absolutely no intelligence, no friends, and a moral code that forbids you breaking any kind of trademark or copyright rule, then the only way to find out the rules is by a £400 device or a time machine.

A trap? I would hardly call someone not wanting to brake the law a trap. And yes, copyrighted matirial on the internet without the copyright holders permission is illigal I don't get what youtube, and wether or not someone is alowd to use it, has to do with the rules.

What I am saying is that there are many people who will very soon not be able to get hold of the rules without either buying an ipad or braking the law. I don't see why you, or anyone else, has so much trouble seeing that these people do exist and we are wondering what GW will do to enable wider access to the rules.

FYI I have a problem with breaching copyright. I don't think people should and I don't think GW should leave people with no other choice, and given the importance of flyers in 6th it will be a choice of have an effective force and brake the law, buy a £400 ipad or don't have an effective force, so the will have no choice, unless people are going to sugest that anyone who wants to play should have an ipad. Haveing had published work stolen myself I know from the sharp end what it feels like. Given that it was a small part technical piece with a few thousand sales the loss to me was probably pence, if anything, but I know what it feels like to think they have a right to something you put time in to for free.

marielle wrote:As to your mental experiment - are we assuming that this 14 year old cannot use the internet? I note that in your careful setting up of this trap, you highlighted illegality as not permissible - so I guessing we are not allowed to suggest torrents, sribd and the like.

Downloading illegal copies of the rules is a crime, and advocating it is a violation of Dakka rules.

It behooves GW to make the rules for its models available on an ongoing basis, if they want to sell those models on an ongoing basis.

Steve steveson wrote:A trap? I would hardly call someone not wanting to brake the law a trap.

Isn't it funny when you need to specify you'd like to gain something legally, and that's seen as an unreasonable condition?

Wait, I forgot about the numbering difference. What issue number are the flyer rules available in the US version of White Dwarf ?

adamsouza wrote:Wait, I forgot about the numbering difference. What issue number are the flyer rules available in the US version of White Dwarf ?

#389. When I didn't see the a mention of the Stormtalon in the product description for #390, I checked and found it in the previous issue. Which isn't available either.

Thanks. Yeah that one was out of stock as well when I checked, The last one they had in stock was Necron issue.

Squigsquasher wrote:Heh, heh, heh.

Am I glad to be British (and t have a subscription).

To quote the late, great Willie Rushton, "I'm sorry if you're foreign, but I can't help it - it's not my fault that
you're foreign"

marielle wrote:Can't you order from where ever? There was someone on here the other day saying they ordered from the UK site in Australia.

Yes, you can do that.

For one issue of White Dwarf, shipping to Australia starts at £55.



To be fair, it appears that issue 390 is still available through GW Oz (for now). With shipping, it's $18.95. I don't need to use a Stormtalon or Dakkajet that badly. And, obviously, it doesn't change the point that once that issue sells out the rules for the Stormtalon won't be available, and the Dakkajet will only be available to those with an iPad... assuming they can actually find the digital download section on the GW website. I just spent 5 minutes nosing around trying to find it from the store home page, or through search, and I'm buggered if I can find where they've hidden it.

I don't want to sound like I'm thread hijacking but I solved this issue in the thread What could Games Workshop produce if they fully embraced digital distribution of their rules?

It would be a shame if GW stopped putting rules on their site. However, there has always been lots of stuff that they do not put up. Examples include the LOTR stuff from a couple of years ago. If such material is available in some form, then it is a plus.

GW needs to learn that if the rules are not available then people will not buy the product. That was certainly the case with the LOTR models.

insaniak wrote:

marielle wrote:Can't you order from where ever? There was someone on here the other day saying they ordered from the UK site in Australia.

Yes, you can do that.

For one issue of White Dwarf, shipping to Australia starts at £55.



To be fair, it appears that issue 390 is still available through GW Oz (for now). With shipping, it's $18.95. I don't need to use a Stormtalon or Dakkajet that badly. And, obviously, it doesn't change the point that once that issue sells out the rules for the Stormtalon won't be available, and the Dakkajet will only be available to those with an iPad... assuming they can actually find the digital download section on the GW website. I just spent 5 minutes nosing around trying to find it from the store home page, or through search, and I'm buggered if I can find where they've hidden it.

To be honest, I don't think there is a digital download section, you have to go in to the ibookstore. Why they have not linked to it I don't know.

Tetsugaku wrote:I don't want to sound like I'm thread hijacking but I solved this issue in the thread What could Games Workshop produce if they fully embraced digital distribution of their rules?

I appreciate the effort, but we're looking for practical solutions, not theoretical

Mastiff wrote:

I appreciate the effort, but we're looking for practical solutions, not theoretical

I have solutions !!

Reprint the few relevant pages from the White Dwarf in question and through them in the box with the model !!

Reprint the rules in question and include them in the order if you buy the model from GW direct.

Make the pages availalble online in PDF for Free !!

Make the pages available on the GW site for $1 !!

Sidstyler wrote:

Squigsquasher wrote:

adamsouza wrote:

marielle wrote:

How about clicking on this link - http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?catId=cat440349a&prodId=prod1620095a

And bingo GW will send you a copy of WD 390.

Problem solved.

And BINGO I get redirected to http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/home.jsp because 390 is out of print/stock !!!

Not for me it isn't.

Well good for you. In the US it's sold out.

Also marielle it's against forum rules to suggest that someone illegally download GW rules (or anything really), so you may not want to suggest that based on that alone. But no, I don't think "Just go steal them!" is a viable alternative.

I wasn't suggesting illegally downloading anything. If anything I was pointing out that there is no need to download anything.

If anything I was suggesting that you can go and buy then from the GW website.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Steve steveson wrote:

marielle wrote:

Steve steveson wrote:Ok, fine, but what about when it dose go out of stock, or it you don't live in the UK? The face remains that WD 390 will not be avalable forever and the 14 year old I was talking about will not be able to get it for long. Saying you can get back orders is not an answer. I would have no problem if there was a book of rules for the flyers for sale, or some such, but as it stands if you want to use one model soon you will need a £400 device or a time machine.

Can't you order from where ever? There was someone on here the other day saying they ordered from the UK site in Australia.

As to your mental experiment - are we assuming that this 14 year old cannot use the internet? I note that in your careful setting up of this trap, you highlighted illegality as not permissible ...

Still if it makes you happy - yes if you have absolutely no intelligence, no friends, and a moral code that forbids you breaking any kind of trademark or copyright rule, then the only way to find out the rules is by a £400 device or a time machine.

A trap? I would hardly call someone not wanting to brake the law a trap. And yes, copyrighted matirial on the internet without the copyright holders permission is illigal I don't get what youtube, and wether or not someone is alowd to use it, has to do with the rules.

What I am saying is that there are many people who will very soon not be able to get hold of the rules without either buying an ipad or braking the law. I don't see why you, or anyone else, has so much trouble seeing that these people do exist and we are wondering what GW will do to enable wider access to the rules.

FYI I have a problem with breaching copyright. I don't think people should and I don't think GW should leave people with no other choice, and given the importance of flyers in 6th it will be a choice of have an effective force and brake the law, buy a £400 ipad or don't have an effective force, so the will have no choice, unless people are going to sugest that anyone who wants to play should have an ipad. Haveing had published work stolen myself I know from the sharp end what it feels like. Given that it was a small part technical piece with a few thousand sales the loss to me was probably pence, if anything, but I know what it feels like to think they have a right to something you put time in to for free.

Indeed neither do I advocate breaching copyright. But the fact is that you are painting a picture in which it is not possible to obtain the rules, and I am pointing out that this is not the case - indeed I gave the link to the GW website giving to the option to go and buy the relevant copy of WD (which you do not have the figleaf of US customers of not being able to do (for the time being we shall leave aside issues of poor management at GW US - the 40k rulebook fiasco being a prime example - or that with the click of a drop down menu they could order from another branch if the company apparently)).

As for your stolen work, I trust it was spell checked?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Mannahnin wrote:

marielle wrote:As to your mental experiment - are we assuming that this 14 year old cannot use the internet? I note that in your careful setting up of this trap, you highlighted illegality as not permissible - so I guessing we are not allowed to suggest torrents, sribd and the like.

Downloading illegal copies of the rules is a crime, and advocating it is a violation of Dakka rules.

It behooves GW to make the rules for its models available on an ongoing basis, if they want to sell those models on an ongoing basis.

As I have pointed out I am not advocating anything of the sort - and highlighting the section where I actually state this is less than useful to the debate.

Just as it is less than useful for dakka to have numerous articles and posts urging people not to buy WD, and then to promote posts that complain when issues of WD are not available. It is simple supply and demand. If people aren't buying the magazine, then shops won't stock it and GW will not print so many copies.

Besides the relevant rules will appear in the upcoming codices, and like flak missiles it is a temporary outcry while we await the new books.

As for selling models - while I respect you position as MOD, and having to say what you did - you have overlooked that the fictional 14 year old had actually bought the model - and if they were in any country other than the US they would still be able to buy the WD with the rules from GW.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

insaniak wrote:

marielle wrote:Can't you order from where ever? There was someone on here the other day saying they ordered from the UK site in Australia.

Yes, you can do that.

For one issue of White Dwarf, shipping to Australia starts at £55.



To be fair, it appears that issue 390 is still available through GW Oz (for now). With shipping, it's $18.95. I don't need to use a Stormtalon or Dakkajet that badly. And, obviously, it doesn't change the point that once that issue sells out the rules for the Stormtalon won't be available, and the Dakkajet will only be available to those with an iPad... assuming they can actually find the digital download section on the GW website. I just spent 5 minutes nosing around trying to find it from the store home page, or through search, and I'm buggered if I can find where they've hidden it.

The point is that this is purely an issue for GW US. Looking at the other English versions of the GW site, the particular issue does appear to be available. But give it a few weeks and it might be available through the US site when the unsold returns become available. And yes it might seem pricey via the Australian website - heck everything is pricey through the Australian website - but buy something else and you get free shipping.

But leave aside all the mind games and the usual internet rage and go and listen to Rich Clark of Two Fat Lardies on episode 9 of Veiw from the Veranda - http://viewfromtheveranda.wordpress.com/2012/07/18/view-from-the-veranda-episode-9-the-one-with-richard-clarke/ - talking about the the change in digital media. Obviously one needs to keep in mind questions of scale when considering the issue?

Edit: This is getting silly and you are resorting to insults... I'm not here to winz the internetz and have made my point.

Dracos wrote:If you really want the rules that WD has to offer, you can subscribe and not have the problem with them running out of copies.

You said subscribe to WD...

Incidentally, I can still download the Necromunda rulebook for free from the site.

The fundamentally daft white dwarf shipping policies seem have stopped a bit, as I'm getting my subscription copy at the same time as it appears in the shops. Others may not be so lucky and I've seen no announcement that this is deliberate.

And what on earth is kool aid?

Kool aid is a "drink" from the US much loved by geeks and students due to its high sugar content and low cost.

It is used as a metaphore for unquestioning devotion, most often to Apple, but can be to anything. I'll not go in to why but look up the Jonestown Massacre.

I say "drink" because it can be used as a hair dye. It is artificial colours, flavours and sugar. Mumsnet would have a fit if it were sold in the UK.

Kool Aid is a very sweet american drink made up from a powder, pretty odd stuff. 'Drinking the Kool Aid' is used to describe unthinking devotion to an idea or cause, it refers to the incident in Jonestown where the Jim Jones Cult committed mass suicide by mixing cyanide in with kool aid to drink it. This isn't really a fair comparison, not just because it probably wasn't actually Kool Aid but some other brand, but mainly because most of the cult followers were forced into it at gun point rather than blindly choosing to kill themselves.

Howard A Treesong wrote:Kool Aid is a very sweet american drink made up from a powder, pretty odd stuff. 'Drinking the Kool Aid' is used to describe unthinking devotion to an idea or cause, it refers to the incident in Jonestown where the Jim Jones Cult committed mass suicide by mixing cyanide in with kool aid to drink it. This isn't really a fair comparison, not just because it probably wasn't actually Kool Aid but some other brand, but mainly because most of the cult followers were forced into it at gun point rather than blindly choosing to kill themselves.

This. While it may not be a 100% accurate comparison, it still works well enough. The perception (and perception is what's important here) is that the cultists willingly drank poisoned Kool-Aid because their leader told them to. So now you use the phrase when you wish to indicate, in not so many words, that you believe a person's devotion to something, be it a cause, a political stance, or a product, reaches unhealthy, almost cult-like levels, and that they are blind to any possible other stance and refuse to accept any criticism as valid. On the flip side, many people will use "drinking the Kool-Aid" a bit too liberally when they particularly despise something and refuse to accept that someone has made an informed, rational decision, it just happens to be the opposite of what they want.

Hey, I just saw that there's a wikipedia article about it: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drinking_the_Kool-Aid

Spyder68 wrote:I have a full blood angels army.
How do i get the new storm things rules? Is my only option ebay or to pirate the rules?

Um, you don't? Because it's C:SM only - not available to C:BA?

Scott-S6 wrote:

Spyder68 wrote:I have a full blood angels army.
How do i get the new storm things rules? Is my only option ebay or to pirate the rules?

Um, you don't? Because it's C:SM only - not available to C:BA?

'

And how was he suppossed to know that if he can't find the rules to read in the first place ?

Scott-S6 wrote:

Spyder68 wrote:I have a full blood angels army.
How do i get the new storm things rules? Is my only option ebay or to pirate the rules?

Um, you don't? Because it's C:SM only - not available to C:BA?

I believe he was referring to allies, which would give his BA army access to the Stormtalon.

Is there actually a reason Blood Angels dont' have access tot eh Stormtalon or is it more of an RAW ommision.

Because BA have the Stormraven.

marielle wrote:
As for selling models - while I respect you position as MOD, and having to say what you did - you have overlooked that the fictional 14 year old had actually bought the model - and if they were in any country other than the US they would still be able to buy the WD with the rules from GW.

The point is that this is purely an issue for GW US. Looking at the other English versions of the GW site, the particular issue does appear to be available. But give it a few weeks and it might be available through the US site when the unsold returns become available. And yes it might seem pricey via the Australian website - heck everything is pricey through the Australian website - but 1.58175 .

It's also an issue in GW Canada.

So, I can order from GB:

Summary of Charges:
Merchandise Total: £4.50
Standard Shipping: £8.33
GST: £0.00
Order Total: £13.92
$21.99 CDN / $21.72 USD

No. Hell no. It costs $54 for the model, and $21.99 for the rules.

"...but buy something else and you get free shipping"

Seriously? Your solution to the way GW handles things is that we need to send them more money?

Just as it is less than useful for dakka to have numerous articles and posts urging people not to buy WD, and then to promote posts that complain when issues of WD are not available. It is simple supply and demand. If people aren't buying the magazine, then shops won't stock it and GW will not print so many copies.

Again, the problem is we're not sending GW enough money? By not buying their monthly catalogue, we're only hurting ourselves?

Is GB's economic recovery plan based solely on the financially stability of GW or something?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

adamsouza wrote:Is there actually a reason Blood Angels dont' have access tot eh Stormtalon or is it more of an RAW ommision.

From what I gathered, Space Wolves were the only army that couldn't include one as part of their regular force.

It's C:SM only. Not avalable to BA or GK (they have the Stormraven), SW (apparently they don't use flyers. Can you see one with wolf plets and the like on ) and DA (who should be getting something when they get a new codex. Hopefully some sort of landspeeder).

marielle wrote: If people aren't buying the magazine, then shops won't stock it and GW will not print so many copies.

Which makes it a poor medium for releasing new rules...

The point is that this is purely an issue for GW US.

Yes, this is only an issue for GW's second largest sales region.


Although given the number of Australians who refuse to buy directly from GW as a result of their sales practices down here, it's pretty effectively an issue here as well. While yes, it is available from GW mailorder for now, I'm not paying GW's shipping charge to get it (it does not cost $7 to post a single magazine from Sydney to Brisbane. So on top of the already inflated price, that's not happening... ) and I'm most certainly not 'buying something else' to get free shipping.

To be perfectly honest, the idea of buying directly from GW has become so foreign that looking for the White Dwarf on the GW webstore never even occured to me until it was mentioned in this thread. I looked for the issue in 3 different newsagents that I know normally stock it, and when they didn't have it I stopped looking. Ordering a magazine from a webstore and having to pay shipping on top of the already high sticker price just for a single article simply makes it a non-option.

And, again, that still brings us back to the question of what happens when those remaining issues do sell out in those regions that still have them for sale.

solution? take the model back (no matter.how cool they look) and get a refund. if.new guy buys a model and can't use it because he can't get the rules to use it, then take it back!

seriously, these aren't intangible goods. we're not talking about gas or heat or food. we're talking about a hobby! right now I have enough cash set aside for three dakka jets, but ole Gee-dub ain't getting a single red cent until I have an easy, accessible way to get the rules.

money talks, and GW will realize their shortcomings when they're staring at a crapload of plastic collecting dust on the shelves.

of course, if we can resist the urge to "gotta have em!"

DeadBabySoup wrote:solution? take the model back (no matter.how cool they look) and get a refund. if.new guy buys a model and can't use it because he can't get the rules to use it, then take it back!

seriously, these aren't intangible goods. we're not talking about gas or heat or food. we're talking about a hobby! right now I have enough cash set aside for three dakka jets, but ole Gee-dub ain't getting a single red cent until I have an easy, accessible way to get the rules.

money talks, and GW will realize their shortcomings when they're staring at a crapload of plastic collecting dust on the shelves.

of course, if we can resist the urge to "gotta have em!"

This really is the best answer, but I'm not sure a brand new gamer would only return the item they had no rules for. I know that if I was brand new to a game and could buy a model, with 0 warning that I couldn't get the rules for it, I would second guess playing any game that company offered. This rides right alongside selling someone a rule book or codex that is about to be phased out, it's crappy business practice and will drive away people who might otherwise have stuck around. This kind of thing is just GW shooting themselves in the foot, and while it doesn't necessarily hurt us personally (hell it might save a few folks some cash), I don't think any of us really want to see GW fall all over itself as opposed to step up for it's customers in more than just apologetic cs responses after something goes wrong.

They could always print the rules for certain figures and put them in the box. Not such a radical idea, some other companies do that, GW themselves used to do that with vehicle datafaxes back un 2nd edition.

Something to keep in mind...

GW print something like 200,000 copies of each issue of White Dwarf. Given the annual sales figures, there are probably somewhere around 500,000 to 1 million active GW customers. That would mean that well over half the customers which GW is selling to in a given year will not actually be getting White Dwarf.

Sean_OBrien wrote:Something to keep in mind...

GW print something like 200,000 copies of each issue of White Dwarf. Given the annual sales figures, there are probably somewhere around 500,000 to 1 million active GW customers. That would mean that well over half the customers which GW is selling to in a given year will not actually be getting White Dwarf.

500,000 to 1 million? Those numbers been floating around since `02.

Steve steveson wrote:It's C:SM only. Not avalable to BA or GK (they have the Stormraven), SW (apparently they don't use flyers. Can you see one with wolf plets and the like on ) and DA (who should be getting something when they get a new codex. Hopefully some sort of landspeeder).

Because marines are marines ?

I run mine as BA or Vanilla, whatever i feel like..

Also, there is allies in 6th.

Spyder68 wrote:

Steve steveson wrote:It's C:SM only. Not available to BA or GK (they have the Stormraven), SW (apparently they don't use fliers. Can you see one with wolf pelts and the like on ) and DA (who should be getting something when they get a new codex. Hopefully some sort of landspeeder).

Because marines are marines ?

I run mine as BA or Vanilla, whatever i feel like..

Also, there is allies in 6th.

Bwa? What dose that have to do with the price of fish? I honestly can't understand what your getting at. The Stormtalon is C:SM only.

Steve steveson wrote:

Spyder68 wrote:

Steve steveson wrote:It's C:SM only. Not available to BA or GK (they have the Stormraven), SW (apparently they don't use fliers. Can you see one with wolf pelts and the like on ) and DA (who should be getting something when they get a new codex. Hopefully some sort of landspeeder).

Because marines are marines ?

I run mine as BA or Vanilla, whatever i feel like..

Also, there is allies in 6th.

Bwa? What dose that have to do with the price of fish? I honestly can't understand what your getting at. The Stormtalon is C:SM only.

allies give you access to everyone's armory. Including those lovely Storm Guppies and Storm Bricks in different SM army arsenals

Steve steveson wrote:

Spyder68 wrote:

Because marines are marines ?

I run mine as BA or Vanilla, whatever i feel like..

Also, there is allies in 6th.

Bwa? What dose that have to do with the price of fish? I honestly can't understand what your getting at. The Stormtalon is C:SM only.

He's saying that he runs his Blood Angels as regular space marines from time to time, AND that he would also like to take Space Marine allies from time to time.

So, to him, the StormTalen fits his army just fine.

New issue of WD has Mini Codex for Demons for both 40K and Fantasy.

We will have to see if these stay WD and Apple exclusive.

Although to be honest, if White Dwarf kept up the trend of new rules every month it might actually justify the cost of a subscription.

WD 389 shows as no longer available to me on the US site. I thought army builder would have them, but the special rules simply reference the white dwarf issue number and page number. Battlescribe doesn't seem to have them currently either. Though, that may change. Seems your SOL if you didn't get them already or purchase the iPad codexes.

Steve steveson wrote:

Also, there is allies in 6th.

Bwa? What dose that have to do with the price of fish? I honestly can't understand what your getting at. The Stormtalon is C:SM only.

Just to expand on what the others have said, there are a four (?) levels of allies available in 6th, whith different levels of cooperation. Blood Angels and Space Marines can ally as Blood Brothers, the closest allies, which means there are no penalties for the two armies to fight beside each other, and even better, they can take advantage of each other's special abilities.

You need to take one HQ and one troop choice, then you can take a fast attack, heavy or elite unit (in this case, the Storm Talon). This is what I've been debating doing for my SW army; take a commander on a bike, so I can take some SM bikers as troops, plus the Storm Talon.

Now, I think I'll pass. I'd like GW to work a little harder for my money, but they keep reducing the value at the same time as they raise the costs.