Generally speaking, there are two reasonable interpretations of the Tau fluff:

Greater Good

Tau culture is naive, optimistic, brave, and noble. The Tau seek to create a society where all races can participate in the creation and preservation of prosperity and dignity for all. For the Tau, the whole is greater than the sum of its parts: when races work together, they can achieve a good that is impossible for them to even imagine individually. This "Greater Good" refers to the best possible social arrangement for all sentient species.

Lesser Evil

Tau culture is cynical, imperialistic, oppressive, and demeaning -- just not to the degree that the Imperium is any of those things. Whereas mankind has decided that no other race may exist, the Tau have a slightly more moderate view: no other race may exist except that it submits to the Tau. This "Greater Good" refers to the best possible social arrangement for the Tau and most especially the Ethereal caste. Benefits to other races are secondary.

Which do you prefer and why?

Well... Seeing as this is 40k, and there are no good guys, I'll chalk the greater good bit up to rhetoric and say the Tau are just a little bit nicer than everyone else... As long as you do what they say

Also, maybe belongs in 40k Background of General? IDK XD

LordofHats wrote:maybe belongs in 40k Background

LOL that's where I thought I was! Thanks.

So, yeah -- you could think of this poll in those terms: is the Greater Good mentality just propaganda for something sinister or do they really mean it? Generally speaking, of course. I know that some individual can really believe in something that is just propaganda to someone higher up. That's not the question here.

Manchu wrote:Generally speaking, there are two reasonable interpretations of the Tau fluff:

Greater Good

Tau culture is naive, optimistic, brave, and noble. The Tau seek to create a society where all races can participate in the creation and preservation of prosperity and dignity for all. For the Tau, the whole is greater than the sum of its parts: when races work together, they can achieve a good that is impossible for them to even imagine individually. This "Greater Good" refers to best possible social arrangement for all sentient species.

Lesser Evil

Tau culture is cynical, imperialistic, oppressive, and demeaning -- just not to the degree that the Imperium is any of those things. Whereas mankind has decided that no other race may exist, the Tau have a slightly more moderate view: no other race may exist except that it submits to the Tau. This "Greater Good" refers to best possible social arrangement for the Tau and most especially the Ethereal caste. Benefits to other races are secondary.

Which do you prefer and why?

Combine them:

- Tau culture is naive ( unaware of the real state of the Galaxy they are born into ) , optimistic ( they still believe there could be hope ), imperialistic ( expand an EMPIRE ), oppressive ( no dissenters allowed ), does not integrate culture from their allies to stay "pure".
- For the Tau, the whole is greater than the sum of its parts: individuality is the devil and lack of social control the direct path to civil war.
- This "Greater Good" refers to best possible social arrangement for the Tau and most especially the Ethereal caste. Benefits to other races are secondary.

No, that is the opposite of the point of this thread -- as I already mentioned. You're supposed to decide between an emphasis on the noblility of the Tau or an emphasis on them being cynical conquerors.

A vote in the poll should suffice then.

I suppose ... but the main question is whether the Tau are a genuine bright spot in the GrimDark or just a slightly lighter shade of dark grey -- as in, is there room in 40k for a genuinely "good" faction?

I think this may be being overthought a little.

Really, it's not the greater good or the lesser evil but the "greater tau" or the "lesser everyone else". Both the tau and the imperium have an idea for how to structure the galaxy that is inherently hierarchical and selfish, oppressing the many so that the leading few can get their way.

If the imperium is vanilla and the tau empire chocolate, it doesn't change the fact that they're both ice cream.

Good and evil are subjective by nature, all sorta stuff like intent, purpose etc to consider.

The question seems more debatable as, would the Tau sacrifice themselves for the survival of the galaxy?

Shift scales as well, on average a Tau commander/etheral would save what number of allied forces at the cost of fire warrior lives?

That may make the question a little more approachable.

i just dont likr tau they annoy me lol

Ailaros wrote:If the imperium is vanilla and the tau empire chocolate, it doesn't change the fact that they're both ice cream.

That's not a very good analogy. We all know that the Imperium is pretty awful. There is a general impression that the Tau are definitely better. But there is disagreement as to what that means: are they better but still bad or actually good?

CpatTom wrote:Good and evil are subjective by nature

Uh, that's not really at issue here. We're talking about generalized IRL standards. IRL, mass killings of citizens by the government are bad. IRL, political oppression to the point of slavery is bad. IRL people look at the Imperium and go "gee, that's a pretty gakky system." So I don't think this needs to be a thread about moral relativism.

40k = eternal war.
It is not a fantasy game of good & evil ( not yet, and I prefer the shades of grey and room for the characters of each faction ).

We don't know how chaos "evolves" in 6th ed as the rulebook isn't clear enough, but we do know the Tau may get new friends and thus become more of a multi-species alliance. So the typical "evil" faction is not going to dim the lights yet and the game has no typical counterpart to everything. Humans and Eldar come in 2 flavors. Nids and Necrons and Orks don't. Tau are the only united faction right now and there is enough shades to represent their color without a reliance on a tag like "good guys".
So if it is ok to have some factions separated in 2 major groups and broken down too, to have some as splintered groups and only one as unified, why would this game have to have anything called good or evil beyond individual level?

So no, zero room for a "good" faction. Lots of space for "good" individuals.
Because as a faction, its impossible to be "good" or "evil" but the individual a faction is made of would grant it a different shade of grey IMO.

CpatTom wrote:The question seems more debatable as, would the Tau sacrifice themselves for the survival of the galaxy?

I don't think that question would make sense to the Tau -- at least not as you have stated it. What does "the galaxy" include, for example? Also, I don't think the Tau believe that the stakes are existential. Humanity's viewpoint seems to be "we dominate or we go extinct." Would humanity sacrifice itself to save the galaxy? What, you mean a hive of xenos scum? No fething way. Would the Tau do it? Er, what do you mean -- a bunch of self-serving gue'la with no concept of the Greater Good? No fething way. It's not even a proper question for either party.


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1hadhq wrote:So no, zero room for a "good" faction. Lots of space for "good" individuals.

Okay, then I can rephrase: who do you think is a "better" (morally speaking) individual: Farsight or Shadowsun?

You're not going to get an answer to this because it's an entirely 'point of view' thing, and like religion its a rather volatile one because people have strong feelings where the tau are concerned. It's quite possible for one POV to view the Tau in an optimistic light (the tau themselves) and others to view them as a horrible horrible threat.
It's like asking what is better. Freedom or security, the individual or the group, or stuff like that. Different people will ascirbe different values to concepts based on what they think is right/appropriate.

Hell it's not exactly like the tau have to be one single, monolithic block in their beliefs, attitudes, or behaviour. Even for a culture as united as they are, you can have room for variation (EG some tau can be jerks, some can be noble and fairminded, etc.)

As far as the tau POV goes they obviously feel justified in doing what they need to for the greater good and what they see as the benefit of all (whether the people they are 'helping' feel the same way or not is irrelevant, becuase they are probably seen as misguided or not knowing what is best for them. That may be misguided but it doesn't make the tau tyrants or monsters.) And yet, they're as expansionist as the Imperium, so naturally not everyone is going to see it the same way the tau do.

Please remember the question is "which do you prefer?" rather than "which is correct?".

I prefer the first option, as it is a slightly rephrased version of the original designer notes on Tau:

In contrast to other races, we wanted the Tau to be altruistic and idealistic, believing heartily in unification as the way forward. This meant that they would happily incorporate other races into their empire without subjugating them, instead enticing them in with the benefits of mutual protection, trade and technology.

Having a single race that doesn't consist of rabid psychos wanting to slay everything in sight with a bloody chainsaw was what drew me back into 40k.

I tend to agree. I prefer to think of the Tau as being quite genuine in their good intentions. The Imperium is horrified by them precisely because the Imperium is evil.

Ailaros wrote:I think this may be being overthought a little.

Really, it's not the greater good or the lesser evil but the "greater tau" or the "lesser everyone else". Both the tau and the imperium have an idea for how to structure the galaxy that is inherently hierarchical and selfish, oppressing the many so that the leading few can get their way.

If the imperium is vanilla and the tau empire chocolate, it doesn't change the fact that they're both ice cream.

both tasty and informative

I consider myself a sucker for the good guys, so more often thatn not i tend to side with the white knight rather than the villian. When Tau first came about i really liked how they were, as i saw them, a new race of good guys who tried to fight for the betterment of everybody instead of themselves. As time went by however the fluff i think has swayed from pure good to secretly corrupt... This is 40k, and its grim dark, so maybe the concensus is that they cant be too nice.

I however like to think of them as purely good guys. Theres gotta be some sort of light on the horizon, an it cant be a conicidence that they dont use the warp. Also the fact that theyre allies for space marines seems like a push twoards the good side to me.

I imagine the Ethereals don't believe in the Greater Good but the uneducated workers and low ranking soldiers do.

well , as i had seen its "our greater good" staff. only if you are special hero you will theaten the same.even kroot which are tald "same as tau" they are USED in the war more than assist. otherwise we could had kroot in crisis suit or something similar

That's a rather clever juxtaposition, Manchu, well done for phrasing it so neatly.

My guess, 58% of the voters don't like and play Tau

Kroothawk wrote:My guess, 58% of the voters don't like and play Tau

Maybe 2/3 of the voters are immune to propaganda?

I voted option #1, I really think they are good-intentioned and earnest in their beliefs. Though they means they use to achieve this may be questionable to some.

well they fight for their survival. they went to stars to survuve in case of destuction of their planet. so they will do EVERYTHING to survive.
as tau player , my most consern is if chaos gods lure the tau , promising that their race will last forever......... tau will acept it or not?

English Assassin wrote:That's a rather clever juxtaposition, Manchu, well done for phrasing it so neatly.

Ah, thanks very much. Seemed fitting.

Kroothawk wrote:My guess, 58% of the voters don't like and play Tau

I don't know, a lot of people who think the Tau are sinister might find that to be appealing about them. This is 40k after all -- not everyone comes for the rainbows and unicorns.

Pada wrote:well they fight for their survival. they went to stars to survuve in case of destuction of their planet. so they will do EVERYTHING to survive.

I don't think they're just content to survive. I think they want something more than bare survival. That's a big difference between the Tau and the Imperium. The Tau want something more; they have a larger project in mind. But that could support either of the choices represented in the poll.

Im going to side with Lesser Evil. I feel it fits the setting better.

That and being human, I would prefer to be cheering for the humans lol

My option isn't there.

The Tau believe they are the Greater Good and try to adhere to those principles. However as those principles are so wildly optimistic the end result looks like Lesser Evil as much as Greater Good.

So Both.

The way I look at the Tau...

Upon their introduction to the galaxy at large, they were a shining beacon of hope and kindness.

Gradually that beacon has been dimmed. Their idealism is becoming cynicism, and more and more they are beginning to realize that kindness will just put you at a disadvantage. They are currently the "Imperium That Could Have Been", while slowly sinking down to the level of the "Imperium That Is".

Jefffar wrote:The Tau believe they are the Greater Good and try to adhere to those principles. However as those principles are so wildly optimistic the end result looks like Lesser Evil as much as Greater Good.

Soooo ... greater good then.


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Kanluwen wrote:Their idealism is becoming cynicism, and more and more they are beginning to realize that kindness will just put you at a disadvantage.

Do you have some fluff to back this up?

Manchu wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:Their idealism is becoming cynicism, and more and more they are beginning to realize that kindness will just put you at a disadvantage.

Do you have some fluff to back this up?

That whole blurb about Shadowsun is pretty, in my opinion, supportive of this.

For the Tau, the universe is getting darker. They're starting to learn that in order to survive they might need to sacrifice something.

It remains to be seen if they will decide that the cost is acceptable or not.

This a 6ed blurb on shadow sun?

Nope, just the bit in the Tau Empire book.

The Tau are simply in it for the greater good of the Tau.

If anyone else benefits from their "greater good", they're happy with that. If not, then oh well.

Manchu wrote:

Jefffar wrote:The Tau believe they are the Greater Good and try to adhere to those principles. However as those principles are so wildly optimistic the end result looks like Lesser Evil as much as Greater Good.

Soooo ... greater good then.

No, I reject the idea that this is simply a binary system and instead believe that the Tau are both at the same time.

Kanluwen wrote:That whole blurb about Shadowsun is pretty, in my opinion, supportive of this.

Hmm, I don't agree. Shadowsun lost her bonded sisters but carries on because she truly believes in Tau'va. She is the hope in cunterpoint to O'Shovah's despair. Or at least that's what I got from it.


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Jefffar wrote:No, I reject the idea that this is simply a binary system and instead believe that the Tau are both at the same time.

It's pretty obvious that you don't. Or more likely you just don't understand the options. The options are that the Tau, as a group, believe either that the Greater Good is sincerely the best way for all beings or that they believe the Greater Good is just good spin for conquering anybody they want to conquer. You said:

The Tau believe they are the Greater Good and try to adhere to those principles.

So ... that's the Greater Good option. I know it's cool be the free thinker who rejects the options given to you in an internet poll but I thought pretty carefully about posing a meaningful difference between the choices and it's really not possible to combine them. Either the Tau are generally benevolent from their own perspective or generally malevolent from their own perspective.

However you are too absolute, it is not a simple yes/no proposition.

In the most idealistic society there are still cynics and the most cynical society there are idealists.

Tau fluff includes both in relatively equal parts. Just look at the three main characters presented in the Tau Codex. Farsight is the cynic who has fallen so far as to even reject the notion of co-operation with other races where as Shadowsword is the idealist who seeks to unite the empire once more behind the banner of the Greater Good. Aun'va is somewhere in between, speaking eloquently on why the Tau should strive to uphold the greater good while at the same time ordering what sounds like a massacre.

Again, the issue is: do you prefer to see the Tau as a mostly sincere and well-meaning faction or a faction like all the others, pursuing a totally racist and violent agenda. It's not about individuals, as I've already stated in this thread (and Farsight isn't even evil; he's just given up hope). It's about each fan's overall take on the Tau. All you are saying is that they are generally good but they sometimes do bad things. That's the Greater Good option in the poll.

I really don't get this poll, there isn't an option I'd like to vote.

For what it's worth I'll just leave my opinion on Tau. I believe that they themselves belief in the "Greater Good" but that the "Greater Good" is twisted and the Ethereals aren't as innocent and well meaning as they appear.

Personally, as I said, I'd have picked a third option: They're in it for the benefit of the Tau, and are willing to take others along for the ride if it benefits the Tau.

That's why it's the Tau empire, not some sort of alliance of unified species. The Tau rule, and everyone else is subordinate to, and in their eyes, inferior to the Tau.

jgehunter wrote:I really don't get this poll, there isn't an option I'd like to vote.

It's pretty simple. The Tau want the galaxy to be a better place for everyone to the greatest extent possible or they just want it to be better for them.


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Melissia wrote:Personally, as I said, I'd have picked a third option: They're in it for the benefit of the Tau, and are willing to take others along for the ride if it benefits the Tau.

That is explicitly the option labeled "Lesser Evil."

My option isnt here......moar evil, filthy xenos.

Kanluwen wrote:The way I look at the Tau...

Upon their introduction to the galaxy at large, they were a shining beacon of hope and kindness.

Gradually that beacon has been dimmed. Their idealism is becoming cynicism, and more and more they are beginning to realize that kindness will just put you at a disadvantage. They are currently the "Imperium That Could Have Been", while slowly sinking down to the level of the "Imperium That Is".

Agreed, it was betrayal from within that made the Imperium what it is, with a variety of races in the Tau Empire, its likely to happen sooner

Bit of a repost by me from a while ago but I'll put it out there for now and update later on my most current take on them: There is a belief, and I don't neccessarlly subscribe to it myself, that the Tau's existence breaks the suspension of disbelief that all works of fiction require but more specifically the one that 40K requires. The is a mini-Dakka-meme that's overused a lot called GrimDark. You will see somebody ask a question like why does so-and-so do this or why is so-and-so so bad? And you will get the inevitable response "because its GrimDark" which is kinda funny but I don't really like it because it shows a clear reduction in thinking.
40K has created this interesting cycle of violence and suffering that's supposed to parable/parody our own world. Repressive organizations do bad things to people until they rebel by doing even worse things that in turn requires the establishment to crackdown and be even more repressive - and so the never-ending cycle of dystopanism grinds on. That's the very theme of 40K. If the Tau don't require this then why does anyone? It's a potential universe breaking issue. Anyways, as others would put it "Taus bad for GrimDark". "

Like I said I don't neccesarily subscribe to that school of thought now. Well more like I don't subscribe to it after the introduction of the Tau, after them it was no longer "WHO CAN BE THE MOST EVIL" but 'HOW THE HUMANS GONNA DIE NOW" or perhaps more accurately "How will the Imperium fall".

40K is completely human-centric. On the Tabletop IG maybe the only race that can fluff-wise ally with any other faction. Be they representing actual IG, Traitor Guard, genestealer cults, Human allies, Human auxilleries etc. etc. Even the most OTT monolithic super-evil armies have actual human troops! Genestealers and Pariahs. 40K is the tale of the humans

If there's one thing that all the fluff constantly reinforces its that The Imperium is held together by prayers and Duct Tape. Whether its enternal implosion or external invasion a dozen possible empire-killing things happen every week.

So what's my point here? That the Tau represent a truly unique threat to The Imperium . The threat of liberty

When ever there is a poll to see who is the biggest threat to The Imperium the Tau often finish in the bottom 2. However, The Tau took over 20 worlds in a day without firing a shot. How many of the other races can say that? Giant slobbering monsters of doom is just par for the course for The Imperium. Although each one may be more monsterous an slobbering than the last the Imperium is a war-machine and knows how to deal with that. But the threat of a better "Quality of Life"? How will The Imperium survive that?

KamikazeCanuck wrote:The Tau took over 20 worlds in a day without firing a shot. How many of the other races can say that?

That should be a truly sobering thought to the masters of the Imperium ... if their brains could even conceive of it! "Mind control -- it has to be mind control," the Inquisitors cry. I agree, KC ... the Tau are a much bigger threat than they're given credit for and it's not because they're secretly evil.

Of course it's "Greater Good". That's like asking if SMs do something "For The Emperor"..
But seriously, I go for the first option. It's much more interesting that way.
The setting is overcrowded with lesser and greater evils. One factions of naive, good guys is a needed contrast.

Lesser evil. Tau do work for the greater good- but only the greater good of their species. Tau care some about general welfare, but not as much as they should- also, the system where Tau ethereals have unquestionable domination over all other Tau makes Tau society essentially a sub-tyrannical monarchy.

well, they got everyone in same level, but that you can say that is more racism than their goal.in theory the should be the same.in action they arent because of the fear that the new-comers are traitors.so it takes time ( and heroes) to be in same level as Tau

Manchu wrote:

Melissia wrote:Personally, as I said, I'd have picked a third option: They're in it for the benefit of the Tau, and are willing to take others along for the ride if it benefits the Tau.

That is explicitly the option labeled "Lesser Evil."

No it's not. "Lesser Evil" indicates something else entirely than "greater good, but only for the Tau".

Melissia wrote:No it's not. "Lesser Evil" indicates something else entirely than "greater good, but only for the Tau".

No, read it again.

Manchu wrote:This "Greater Good" refers to the best possible social arrangement for the Tau and most especially the Ethereal caste. Benefits to other races are secondary.

Now here's what you wrote:

Melissia wrote:They're in it for the benefit of the Tau, and are willing to take others along for the ride if it benefits the Tau.

Manchu wrote:

Melissia wrote:No it's not. "Lesser Evil" indicates something else entirely than "greater good, but only for the Tau".

No, read it again.

Manchu wrote:This "Greater Good" refers to the best possible social arrangement for the Tau and most especially the Ethereal caste. Benefits to other races are secondary.

Now here's what you wrote:

Melissia wrote:They're in it for the benefit of the Tau, and are willing to take others along for the ride if it benefits the Tau.

I'm aware of what you described it as.

But you're wrong

Melissia wrote:But you're wrong

No, Melissia. What you said is an only slightly re-worded version of one of the poll options. We have the words themselves and can compare them. Stubbornness doesn't change that. The only explanation is that you did not mean what you posted.

well i think i understand what Melissia says :
fist of all , tau havent got comunism. neither the caste system is 100% like castes in India ect. casted are based upon that type of tau you are.so they cant change because of their DNA, not because the system.Also, as it writes on Codex, tau try to put the spieces in these casted based on their biology.They "do recuits" in their species , not in their Empire.In other words, they want every one to be tau, and believe that they are the chosen to rule. so until do something that proves that you are a tau( for ex. one Heroic act or a discovery) you are just a "guest" and not a "meber" of tau.

That's not a bad insight but I don't think it gets to Melissia's point, which was that the Tau place themselves first and everyone else a very distant second (if at all). What you're saying seems more like the "Greater Good" option although I don't think your point specifically addresses the question posed here.

Manchu wrote:

Melissia wrote:But you're wrong

No, Melissia. What you said is an only slightly re-worded version of one of the poll options. We have the words themselves and can compare them. Stubbornness doesn't change that. The only explanation is that you did not mean what you posted.

For a true Sororitas fan, faith overrides reason and facts are for the weak

While you're here, how do you think the poll is coming along? Greater Good has overtaken Lesser Evil -- not what I would have expected.

yes, neither i.... i thought that lesser evil would lose for a small amount of votes (0-5) , not so big

but its not ended yet

Neither poll option really reflects my view on Tau. I do think that they're mostly genuinely well meaning in the sense that they believe that the Greater Good and the integration to the Tau Empire benefits the alien races they ally with. However, many 19th century imperialists had similar views about the 'natives' and the western way of life, and that often did not end that well for the said natives. So it is not that the Tau are evil and selfish, merely naive and arrogant. They think that they know what is best for the others, even though they themselves actually are clueless newcomers.

Okay, so that's another vote for Greater Good.

Manchu wrote:Okay, so that's another vote for Greater Good.

In a way. I just don't think that the Greater Good is necessarily good at all.

I see it as cultural imperialism that forces everyone to conform to this idealised model, stripping away their individuality, and in the case of the aliens, their culture.

Sure, sure -- but the thread isn't about whether you personally agree with the Tau. Just whether you think they are motivated by what, for them, are noble intentions or cynical ones.

I voted for "Greater Good" but there is no middle ground in this poll.

The Tau are mostly "Good" IMO except for a few things:
-As the tau were probably created by an elder race to fight chaos, they are not "free" as they would believe themselves.
-The Etherials mind control the Tau, no objection has EVER been made to their rule, its just lucky that their (somewhat naive) vision of the galaxy is largely beneficial to the majority.
-Due to the Etherial mind control, no Tau ever has freedom in their way of life, even though they do not know it they are all secret slaves.
-The Etherials way of government (the cast system) although beneficial to the majority, essentially destroys all individuality and personal freedom. The Ethereals probably know about and regret this, but in their ayes it is far better than the return of the dreaded "Mon'tau".
-If the Etherials were truly benevolent they would not force other races to exist under THEIR rule, they would instead form a multi-species council. This (apart from the imperiums deep Xenophobia) is the reason the Tau will never find peace with the majority of humanity.
-Due to the Tau's relatively recent expansion, they know very little of the threat of chaos. If the Tau ever start to become phychicly able, their entire ethos is guaranteed to change.

Honestly, there is no meaningful "middle answer" to this question. Either you prefer Tau to be (mostly) good guys or Tau to be (mostly) bad guys.

I'm not that well read on the Tau but I would prefer them to be more morally ambiguous, darker, slightly more evil if you will.

Kanluwen wrote:
For the Tau, the universe is getting darker. They're starting to learn that in order to survive they might need to sacrifice something.

It remains to be seen if they will decide that the cost is acceptable or not.

This does sound really interesting and I personally hope that they explore this a bit more in the fluff.

Manchu wrote:Sure, sure -- but the thread isn't about whether you personally agree with the Tau. Just whether you think they are motivated by what, for them, are noble intentions or cynical ones.

I am sure that to Imperium exterminating all aliens is a noble and just cause, but this does not mean they are not horrible bigoted asshats.



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Manchu wrote:Honestly, there is no meaningful "middle answer" to this question. Either you prefer Tau to be (mostly) good guys or Tau to be (mostly) bad guys.

You place too much emphasis on intention. There are plenty of horrible attrocities that have been committed with what to the perpetrator were noble intentions.


If the crux of the thread is whether I prefer the Tau to be 'good guys,' then no, I don't. Sure, in many ways they're better than the Imperium, but that is not a terribly high bar to reach.

To quote the dude, "Well that's like, your opinion man." I think there could be lots of room for interpretation.

Both brightsword and farsight are arguments against mind control, as farsight, you think, would have been brought back in by mind control (unless he is being "brain controlled"!) And brightsword was assassinated.

I don't see why the etherals are "bad/evil" for governing their particular way that we know very little about.

Manchu, stop trying to force everyone's views to match two arbitrary definitions.

It just makes you look a bit arrogant. Like asking someone "do you support abortion yes/no", and they say "no but" and without paying any further attention to them, you declare "okay you're a Republican then."

Melissia wrote:Manchu, stop trying to force everyone's views to match two arbitrary definitions.

It just makes you look a bit arrogant. Like asking someone "do you support abortion yes/no", and they say "no but" and without paying any further attention to them, you declare "okay you're a Republican then."

Doesn't seem that Manchu is trying to force anything. Rather that the op is exercising the perogative to keep the poll/ thread on the track that was intended.

I can see that the op's actions/posts could be seen as restrictive to the conversation,
on the other hand, it could be that the poll is Manchus primary reason for the thread and that as such, does not want conversation to sway the vote.

Melissia wrote:Manchu, stop trying to force everyone's views to match two arbitrary definitions.

As far as your view goes, it matched one of my poll options explicitly. Stop being cranky that you're not a special snowflake in this case. It just makes you look pigheaded.

The poll options are actually not arbitrary at all. As I mentioned in the OP, they are the two reasonable interpretations: Tau are either sincere about pursuing the good of all or they are just using that rhetoric to promote their own power. There is no third option in a question about how one views the faction along those lines in general terms.

focusedfire wrote:it could be that the poll is Manchus primary reason for the thread and that as such, does not want conversation to sway the vote.

Yes, that's sort of the issue. People are telling me there are other options here -- because that is what people always do in poll threads -- but when they actually spell it out, it turns out to be either one of the existing options or something that doesn't even address the poll. For example, the issue of "mind control" itself is immaterial. The Tau could be mind controlling Vespids, or whoever else, for two different reasons, generally: (1) to make them serve the Tau race or (2) to make them serve their own good, which they are unable to recognize by themselves. So whether the Tau are employing mind control at all doesn't really matter as to the question at hand.

You can see in Crimson's post how he misses the point here by saying controlling someone else for their own good is really bad -- as in the case of IRL imperialism. Maybe so, but that is not the question asked by the poll. The poll only wants to know whether the Tau program is genuinely intended to benefit all member species or just the Tau race itself, especially the Ethereal class. Imperialism may be bad in and of itself for a number of reasons, mostly in terms of consequences, but some imperialists act out of an authentic desire to improve others and not just themselves. Other imperialists only care about enslaving others to their agenda. That's the question here.

I've always seen the Tau as more like a young United States; they're a highly dynamic, optimistic society that, while certainly commiting their fair share of atrocities, are truly striving towards a more free society. In the same vein, whilst the ethereals are certainly in control right now, I doubt their grip will last, much like the Founding Fathers, and as the empire grows and the "allied" races continue to multiply alongside the tau, power struggles and other interests could lead to a civil war, which would reveal the true intentions of the tau.

Until then, however, I see the tau as honestly striving towards the Greater Good, not just for themselves but for their allies as well; even the Ethereals, who may seem despotic, but aren't taking advantage of their positions for personal gain.

That is a fantastic analogy, I think. The word for it is "exceptionalism." We've been talking about stupid, irrelevant phrases like "communism" and "utilitarianism" for too long. The Tau are first and foremost exceptionalists.

Manchu wrote:
You can see in Crimson's post how he misses the point here by saying controlling someone else for their own good is really bad -- as in the case of IRL imperialism. Maybe so, but that is not the question asked by the poll. The poll only wants to know whether the Tau program is genuinely intended to benefit all member species or just the Tau race itself, especially the Ethereal class. Imperialism may be bad in and of itself for a number of reasons, mostly in terms of consequences, but some imperialists act out of an authentic desire to improve others and not just themselves. Other imperialists only care about enslaving others to their agenda. That's the question here.

Why you equate the sincere motivations with being 'good guys?' The poll doesn't but say that, so there's nothing wrong with that, but you later said that this was the main crux of the question. So do you want to ask whether Tau have sincere motivations, or whether we prefer them to be 'good guys?' Because those are two different questions.

Because they are the same question for the purpose of this particular fictional universe.

Manchu wrote:Because they are the same question for the purpose of this particular fictional universe.

In your head, maybe, but not really. Does sincerely believing that all xenos must die make the Imperium of Man good guys? Does sincerely believing that being engulfed by the Chaos is the best thing that can happen to the galaxy make the Chaos Marines good guys? I do not get why you mix the whole good/bad guy thing in this. It muddles your original question from which it doesn't logically follow.

CSM don't believe that Chaos engulfing the galaxy is what's best for the galaxy. They think it's what the galaxy deserves.

The Imperium doesn't kill xenos ought of "good intentions." They kill xenos out of hatred and the morally neutral will to survival.

If you believe that the Tau genuinely seek to improve the lot of all races that accept the Greater Good then they are the good guys of 40k, possibly along with the Eldar.

If it helps you to keep the issues separate in your head, then please do so.

Eldar are good guys? You mean those arrogant pointy-ear supremacist who care about nothing but themselves and would gladly exterminate anyone who gets in their way had they resources to do so! (Yes, I do love them.)

I do not get what trying to force this good/bad guy dicothomy on 40K will accomplish. I sincerely believe that if anyone starts to look like the good guys in 40K, then someone is doing it wrong. There should not be good guys in 40K.

The Tau have an ideology which they temselves believe to be good (as do pretty much any supposter of any ideology ever, regardless of how horrible that ideology actually is), and because they believe it to be good, they'll push this ideology to everyone. This does not make them good guys in any reasonable sense.

Crimson wrote:This does not make them good guys in any reasonable sense.

The idea that the Tau actually care about the welfare of other races makes them stand out as good guys relative to every other race -- except, as I said, possibly the Eldar who may or may not care about the galaxy as a whole in addition to primarily wanting to preserve their own species.

Manchu wrote:That is a fantastic analogy, I think. The word for it is "exceptionalism." We've been talking about stupid, irrelevant phrases like "communism" and "utilitarianism" for too long. The Tau are first and foremost exceptionalists.

Tau got socialism , nothing else
they havent exceptionalism. i can say that Imperioum or Chaos ( in place were they havent anarchy) have exceptionalism more than tau. they believe that they are doing is the only way to save themselves ( and the other spicies that they will agree)

I'm really referring to American exceptionalism, the idea that the United States has a unique duty to spread its idealism to every other nation.

yes , that i was meanig
also remeber what IoM believe.and Chaos too
Tau let in the empire aliens that they do not fight for the Greater Good , maybe let them believe whatever they want. but they got penalties ( for ex. live like cave-man or use sterilization if they become many)

Neither the Imperium nor Chaos are spreading their ideology in the sense of the Tau so I am confused as to what you mean.

And which allies of the Tau do not share the ideal of the Greater Good? By being a member of the Tau Empire, one subscribes to that doctrine. The Kroot may not go on about it like the Tau but they obviously agree to it since they are partners with the Tau.

IoM says : kill the heretics ( them who dont believe in its ideologi)

Chaos : there are only 4 Gods and a false Emperor.Acept it and join us or die

Tau :join us or get destroyed.but you can just surunder

and :

Manchu wrote:
And which allies of the Tau do not share the ideal of the Greater Good? By being a member of the Tau Empire, one subscribes to that doctrine. The Kroot may not go on about it like the Tau but they obviously agree to it since they are partners with the Tau.

humans that live in conquerd hive cities of Tau for exaple.they only suffer propaganda.
but in general Tau say : "We will respect ur beliefs , if you only see reason." Not respect donent means vanish,just some penalties . in Ameria Indians died bs of the diference

I do think the Tau, most of them at least, believe in this Greater Good and try to act in accordance with it. They defend themself ferociously but will allow defeated opponents to surrender or withdraw instead of annihilating them. They prefer to try negotiations first if there's something they want. Conquered races are second-class citizens but at least they're alive and can go on with their business in support of the Tau.

No one can say if the real leaders actually believe but as long as they're acting the part who cares? Time might come when some leader goes against the Greater Good and finds he's having a hard time convincing his underlings that he's right.

@Pada: I don't think Tau are really content to let other races live according to their own ethics -- at least not forever. If the Tau hesitate, it is only for practical reasons.

Pada wrote:Tau :join us or get destroyed.but you can just surunder

Have you ever read about Kroot and how they met Tau and finally joined the Tau Empire (and how Anghkor Prok became a general in the tau army)?
Funny how the best documented example doesn't fit at all your statement. Do you really think that ultra-pragmatic Kroot are slaves to Tau pheromones or propaganda and licking their boots?

Guess who is the victim of propaganda now?

I think the Tau have met other races besides the Kroot.

KamikazeCanuck wrote:I think the Tau have met other races besides the Kroot.

Like the Vespid? The insect things that the Tau control with their pheremones?...

Wait... which thred am I in again?

KamikazeCanuck wrote:I think the Tau have met other races besides the Kroot.

"The tau subjugate all races they meet."
"But the designer notes say the contrary."
"Erm, but every race they meet is subjugated."
"Kroot aren't. Tau help them altruistically to not get extinct, fighting a hard 10 years war without asking for anything. Later the Kroot are grateful for that. One even becomes a general in the Tau army."
"Erm, but every other race is subjugated"
"But Vespids join the Empire voluntarily and are valued as equals in the army. And Demiurg are just allies"
"But ... but ... here a race I just made up that is totally subjugated."
"Yeah, right!"

DeffDred wrote:

KamikazeCanuck wrote:I think the Tau have met other races besides the Kroot.

Like the Vespid? The insect things that the Tau control with their pheremones?...
Wait... which thred am I in again?

Well, not the "adjust your tinfoil head and misquote even existing conspiracy theories to show your lack of competence in the discussion" thread (hint: it is not pheromones)

The average Tau worker believes in the Greater Good because they are thoroughly brainwashed and socially conditioned from birth to believe in it.

The Ethereals, and probably Tau dissenters like Farsight, know that the Greater Good is a sham. It's pervasive propaganda designed to create an unshakeable national identity which justifies anything and everything the Tau do in its name. While the average Tau is probably basically good, the Tau Empire is an aggressively expansionist entity that cares not whether those it is attempting to expand onto want them there or not, and the Empire will resort to any any all tactics to achieve their aims.

The Tau Empire combines the social model of Huxley's Brave New World with the kind of hyper-nationalism the pre-WW2 Nazi party used to galvanize the German population. This creates a system where only the very top level even knows that it is a system. The highest members of the elemental castes still fully believe in the system because they too have been conditioned since birth.

I love the mod discussion here! @manchu, I wasn't even aware of the phrase, but yes, it fits my personal image of the Tau precisely.

@veteran, while I see what you mean with your comparisons to Huxley & Germany, I don't think you're looking at the whole picture. Remember the Tyranid invasion, and the encounter with the Dark Eldar that ensued. The tau as a race were gullible enough to fall for it; even the Ethereals. I think it's unfair to say that their nationalism is truly unfounded; even the US had to become a nationalist country to keep up with the British Empire, then Germany & Japan, and later the USSR. To an extent, most good guys in a story are delusional, and every good guy grows up. So too the Tau - they're reaching their coming of age as an empire, where they're probably going to have to decide whether they will be in it for the good of everyone, or simply their own.

Rome brought great things to the lands they conquered; India would be a hellhole today were it not for the introduction of the railroad by the Brits. Yet we largely view these empires as good examples, for the most part, especially compared to their alternatives at the time. Can not the Tau be one of those, too?

Kroothawk wrote:

KamikazeCanuck wrote:I think the Tau have met other races besides the Kroot.

"The tau subjugate all races they meet."
"But the designer notes say the contrary."
"Erm, but every race they meet is subjugated."
"Kroot aren't. Tau help them altruistically to not get extinct, fighting a hard 10 years war without asking for anything. Later the Kroot are grateful for that. One even becomes a general in the Tau army."
"Erm, but every other race is subjugated"
"But Vespids join the Empire voluntarily and are valued as equals in the army. And Demiurg are just allies"
"But ... but ... here a race I just made up that is totally subjugated."

Wow, Kroothawk you've taken strawman to a whole new level. Completely conversing with yourself. Well done.

I voted two, that much hope and happy usually means it's a facade for something foul and rotten.

uberjoras wrote: I think it's unfair to say that their nationalism is truly unfounded

Who said it was unfounded?

It's very well designed to do what it does. Galvanize the elemental castes and give them a cohesive vision for the Empire. The nationalism isn't a sham. It's just very well nurtured and reinforced. The Greater Good is pervasive. It's in everything they do, and the belief in the overwhelming and unquestioned "right" of what they do is part of the Tau. The Nazi party used a similar approach to galvanize a German population that had been humiliated by the treaty of Versailles. Slowly but surely the Germans were whipped up into a hyper-nationalistic collective social state of mind. I know about Godwin's law and all that, lol, but this truly is a valid Nazi comparison, and I use it simply because it's the easiest real world analogy that nearly everybody would know. Nationalism is important to every successful country, so it's certainly not a thing unique to Germany. I use them because they're demonstrative of a populace that was able to be directed at a very nationalistic purpose, and didn't always ask a lot of questions. The Tau are much the same way. The Tau believe wholeheartedly in The Greater Good, even though in the process they've been socially engineered and confined to castes in order to preserve the maximized genetic makeup of those castes.

I don't question your example of Germany at all; you're correct in drawing the parallel. You even seem to be basically agreeing with me on a fair number of points; I think where we differ is what defines the "Greater Good" versus "The Good of Others" and "The Good of the Tau". That argument would eventually fall down the whole altruism/selfishness debate though, and I doubt the mods want that can opened here. Suffice to say that in my interpretation, the Tau do a good job on both of them, despite not having any real obligations to the other races they encounter (They could easily have killed off the Vespid, their colonies would be more efficient without humans, could have turned a blind eye to the Kroot, and they still have to be paid, etc). The tau (read: the Ethereals creating policy) do it either out of their belief in a "Greater Good", or a "Why not?" attitude, both of which point to a general tendency towards benevolence.

What I'm more trying to get at, though, is that while sure, the Tau are invested in their national pride, and the entire caste/social system of the tau revolves around the seemingly all-important Ethereals, you don't really see the "heads of state" abusing their power. Think of them like a charismatic leader, like Julius Caesar, Alexander the Great, George Washington, or even Tokugawa Ieyasu. All exerted a control over their followers, and commanded respect even from their enemies. The Ethereals do much the same, for no truly definitive reason other than GW says they do.

However, have the Ethereals done well for the Tau? Have they been able to help the Kroot from extinction, and grow as a culture? Did they aid the Vespids in gaining technology, and forming a unified culture? Have they provided better rights to those humans under their rule than the Imperium gave? Yes, to all of these. I see the Tau's imperialism as not really harming anyone yet. Maybe in the long term, it's changing each of their "allies" into a more Tau-friendly, tau-dependent culture, but real-life colonial powers were the same anyways!

What surprises me in this whole discussion up until now is the only fleeting mention of the Vespid in particular, who had very little to no way of unifying their race, much less surviving should the Imperium decide their world was worth anything. Much like in India with the UK, the Tau moved in and really helped them; yes, they're taking the natural resources from the planet, including manpower (bugpower?), but the gains are so significant for the Vespid that the trade-off was actually quite well worth it for the bug-folk, particularly since they retain pretty much complete free reign over their planet, and aren't being oppressed like the Indians were historically.

well Tau arent Nazis ,but yes they have a very simillar way of thinking.the diference is that other races are acetable even if they dont belive in Greater Good.but they suffer penalties.if that were Nazis doing , then ok they are simila.BUT remeber from were Hitler took his system .Its from greek city-states , a place whith mono "Greek are civilased , all others barbarians". that remebers me the Tau in form " Tau Empire is civilased , others are selfish barbarians" .the only exeption is Eldar, there there is a "same whith as lever" view

Kroothawk wrote:

Pada wrote:Tau :join us or get destroyed.but you can just surunder

Have you ever read about Kroot and how they met Tau and finally joined the Tau Empire (and how Anghkor Prok became a general in the tau army)?
Funny how the best documented example doesn't fit at all your statement. Do you really think that ultra-pragmatic Kroot are slaves to Tau pheromones or propaganda and licking their boots?

Guess who is the victim of propaganda now?

they choosed the "join us" way.And i had said to other topic that Etherials dont have pheromones . Also propaganda maybe has a truth inside it.
About kroot: they were slaved by orks.Tau saved them and asked their asist to help others.Kroot saw it as a change to "update" their DNA so the came.
about vespids: it was a trade of style " join and we give you techonolgy" . They gladly accepted it ( althought maybe they get slaves)
also: you have ever read how humans who dont believe in the Geater Good live in the Empire? And how they who believe? the fist live like Middle Ages , the last as Tau

Pada wrote:

Kroothawk wrote:

Pada wrote:Tau :join us or get destroyed.but you can just surunder

Have you ever read about Kroot and how they met Tau and finally joined the Tau Empire (and how Anghkor Prok became a general in the tau army)?
Funny how the best documented example doesn't fit at all your statement. Do you really think that ultra-pragmatic Kroot are slaves to Tau pheromones or propaganda and licking their boots?

Guess who is the victim of propaganda now?

you have ever read how humans who dont believe in the Geater Good live in the Empire?

Most likely still better than not believing in the Emperor in the Imperium. In some case, maybe even better than Believing in the Emperor in the Imperium.


I think Tau really are the One speck of light in the Darkness of the 40k Universe, but only because of their Naivety.

They couldn't comprehend something as large as a titan until they fought one. They still really do not Grasp the size of the Imperium. They don't understand the concept of Gods and believe they killed either Tzeentch or Slaanesh. I forget which one.

IMHO, right now they are trying to not only expand their empire, but try and make all the citizens( both Tau and not Tau) happy working for the Greater Good of the Empire, but eventually they will start to distrust other non Empire aliens (once bitten twice shy) and monitor them more closely before trying to start up negotiations, and any dissenters within the Empire may eventually lead to the dissenters species to be closely monitored, For the Greater Good of course, to make sure no harm comes to the Empire or any of it's citizens.

Even if you do bad things, it can still genuinely be for the Greater Good. That's different from what I've called the "Lesser Evil," where one does bad things imply because they're useful. With the Tau, this is a fine line. The idea of the Greater Good, even if we imagine it to be a serious ideal rather than just propaganda, is very closely tied into a practical outlook. So the bad things that "good guy" Tau do serve a useful end -- we just have to remember that end is supposed to be to the benefit of all. This as opposed to the "bad guy" Tau who just gangsters, doing whatever bad things just to shore up their own power/superiority. So even if the Tau do eventually become less trusting (not that I think of them as that trusting currently), it doesn't necessarily lead them down the path of "Lesser Evil."

if you mean about the reason of fighting , Tau believe that in that way help all the galaxy.
IIRC there is a proof for that : Tau of Vior'la when Farshight left the Empire thought that maybe he was right.Showndown (P.S NOT A ETHERIAL , that for the what-etherials-are topic ) and they decided to conitie follow the Empire.That means that is a ideology and not propaganda.otherise why Tau want to leve the place where rule?

I don't understand what you are trying to say.

i want to metion that Tau believe that they saving them and the others who will follow them. Farsight's treson did tau think that maybe they were wrong.that means that it wasnt just progaganda but they believe that Greater Good

Ah okay, I think that's a pretty good point. I guess people will say "oh, they're just brainwashed by the Ethereals" -- is it true that Vior'la openly agreed with Farsight?

As we all know Farshight decided that Tau had to fight as a race
so that is from Tau codex : "for the loyalty of the Fire caste was not sure as it had once been, whith many of its warriors openly proclaiming their support for the renegate Commader Farshith.Whith O'Shovah breakway from the Tau Empire,his deeds have, despite the best attepts of the Etherials , caused a schism among the Fire Warriors of the Tau"

i hope that i covered you

Well, the poll has been up for ten days now and we're currently seeing a significant preference for Tau as genuinely pursuing the Greater Good instead of being just one more "bad guy" faction. That makes sense in some ways: if the Tau were villains, they'd be pretty bad at it compared to CSM or Dark Eldar. But I am surprised at the results, too, because 40k is so often characterized as the setting without "good guys."

I think the problem is that you don't have an "In Between" choice Manchu. If you had that, I know I would have voted by now.

Do you hate on the light switch because there are no options besides on and off? Tau are generally sincere or Tau are generally insincere. What is the third option?

well i voted "Greater Good" but that doent mean that i belive are the good guys, beter in some aspects yes, but worse in others.Tau can easy destroy a planet more than IoM , only that because "etherials said it "
they are good whith they help them, but they kill every one that isnt whith them. Eldar are better than them, maybe and IoM in a part.
They are more "secret evil"

Manchu wrote:ThDo you hate on the light switch because there are no options besides on and off?

No, but that's why I have dimmer switches.

We're obviously not talking about absolute but relative terms. If the Tau are genuinely interested in helping other races, they are definitely good guys relative to every other faction in 40k.

Pilau Rice wrote:

Manchu wrote:Do you hate on the light switch because there are no options besides on and off?

No, but that's why I have dimmer switches.

A dimmer switch does not affect the question "are the lights on or off." If the lights are turned down low, they're still on. If they're at maximum brightness, they're still on. If they're not on then they are off.

My light switch is a dimmer switch, so yes there are options besides "On" and "Off".

Really though. There is no faction, aside from the followers of Chaos, which are "good" or "evil".

Shades of grey abound in 40k. The Imperium, to us, is a fascist empire which makes Iran look like Disney World.
But to them, in a universe where mere thoughts can draw the predations of beings existing in a realm of madness their methodologies are not only acceptable but are in fact necessary.

For the Tau, I still maintain that they could easily have started out as "The Good Guys". But much like you or I, it's very easy for their optimism to become cynicism or downright pessimism.

as i said in a previous post, they dont interest of other races, more than make their better by recuiting more.they "abadon" the term rece and put indseat the word "empire"

Kanluwen wrote:My light switch is a dimmer switch, so yes there are options besides "On" and "Off".

See above -- no there aren't. Even with a dimmer switch, the lights are either on or off.

Kanluwen wrote:For the Tau, I still maintain that they could easily have started out as "The Good Guys". But much like you or I, it's very easy for their optimism to become cynicism or downright pessimism.

Well, that is the question: are the Tau currently optimists or pessimists? You don't need a third option there, either.

Manchu wrote:We're obviously not talking about absolute but relative terms. If the Tau are genuinely interested in helping other races, they are definitely good guys relative to every other faction in 40k.

Pilau Rice wrote:

Manchu wrote:Do you hate on the light switch because there are no options besides on and off?

No, but that's why I have dimmer switches.

A dimmer switch does not affect the question "are the lights on or off." If the lights are turned down low, they're still on. If they're at maximum brightness, they're still on. If they're not on then they are off.

On mine you can turn it on but it's still dark

Pilau Rice wrote:On mine you can turn it on but it's still dark

So ... the lights are not on.

Manchu wrote:

Pilau Rice wrote:On mine you can turn it on but it's still dark

So ... the lights are not on.

But my light switch would suggest otherwise

How about:

Tau culture is naive, optimistic, brave, and noble. The Tau seek to create a society where all races can participate in the creation and preservation of prosperity and dignity for all. For the Tau, the whole is greater than the sum of its parts: when races work together, they can achieve a good that is impossible for them to even imagine individually. This "Greater Good" refers to the best possible social arrangement for all sentient species, however, no other race may exist except that it submits to the Tau.

Does that make sense

Pilau Rice wrote:This "Greater Good" refers to the best possible social arrangement for all sentient species, however, no other race may exist except that it submits to the Tau.

Does that make sense.

No. Although you have mixed phrases from the first and second options, the result is that the meaning is the same as the second option.

To wit:

Pilau Rice wrote:

Manchu wrote:

Pilau Rice wrote:On mine you can turn it on but it's still dark

So ... the lights are not on.

But my light switch would suggest otherwise

So your light switch provides you with a meaningless option: the switch says the lights are on but they are not actually on.

Manchu wrote:

Pilau Rice wrote:This "Greater Good" refers to the best possible social arrangement for all sentient species, however, no other race may exist except that it submits to the Tau.

Does that make sense.

No. Although you have mixed phrases from the first and second options, the result is that the meaning is the same as the second option.

Oh, didn't mean the same to me. Basically Tau have all these great and noble ideas, will be your best buddy if you go along with their plans, help you out, but will nuke you if you aren't on the same page.

Manchu wrote:To wit

Towooo

Manchu wrote:

Pilau Rice wrote:

Manchu wrote:

Pilau Rice wrote:On mine you can turn it on but it's still dark

So ... the lights are not on.

But my light switch would suggest otherwise

So your light switch provides you with a meaningless option: the switch says the lights are on but they are not actually on.

Yeah, it's really dark still until you turn it up, isn't that how dimmer switches are supposed to work?

Pilau Rice wrote:Tau have all these great and noble ideas, will be your best buddy if you go along with their plans, help you out, but will nuke you if you aren't on the same page.

[

EXACLY.but that is in the fist option than on the second.
also tau dont trust everyone that says that he is whith the Greater Good

Pilau Rice wrote:Basically Tau have all these great and noble ideas, will be your best buddy if you go along with their plans, help you out, but will nuke you if you aren't on the same page.

In other words, benefits to others are secondary while the main point is to shore up the Tau. This is kind of the crux: if the "Greater Good" is just some way to shoehorn other races into a "friendly" (read: subservient) alliance or if the Tau actually think there's room for everyone eventually.

Pilau Rice wrote:Yeah, it's really dark still until you turn it up, isn't that how dimmer switches are supposed to work?

At some point, the lights are off and and some point the lights are on. Dim light is still light. Darkness is never light.

Pada wrote:also tau dont trust everyone that says that he is whith the Greater Good

So where does that fit in?

Manchu wrote:

Pilau Rice wrote:Basically Tau have all these great and noble ideas, will be your best buddy if you go along with their plans, help you out, but will nuke you if you aren't on the same page.

In other words, benefits to others are secondary while the main point is to shore up the Tau. This is kind of the crux: if the "Greater Good" is just some way to shoehorn other races into a "friendly" (read: subservient) alliance or if the Tau actually think there's room for everyone eventually

They would like to think so, from what I know of the Tau, but they aren't all smile and sunshine.

Manchu wrote:At some point, the lights are off and and some point the lights are on. Dim light is still light. Darkness is never light

Would you like me to give you a run down of how my dimmer switch works? So if it's not pitch black, it's not dark?

Pilau Rice wrote:

Pada wrote:also tau dont trust everyone that says that he is whith the Greater Good

So where does that fit in?

I don't even know what it refer to ... I mean, how the authentic Greater Good is determined is a secondary question. First, we have to determine what they even mean by Greater Good.

Pilau Rice wrote:

Pada wrote:also tau dont trust everyone that says that he is whith the Greater Good

So where does that fit in?

you may say that you are whith the Greater Good and you mean it.but maybe they dont believe you and will send you do the "dirty jobs". only because you are "not from the stadard
races whith greater good"

Pilau Rice wrote:Would you like me to give you a run down of how my dimmer switch works? So if it's not pitch black, it's not dark?

There's you're problem. You want to answer a question about how bright or dim the light is. But the question is, are the lights on or off?

Pada wrote:

Pilau Rice wrote:

Pada wrote:also tau dont trust everyone that says that he is whith the Greater Good

So where does that fit in?

you may say that you are whith the Greater Good and you mean it.but maybe they dont believe you and will send you do the "dirty jobs". only because you are "not from the stadard
races whith greater good"

Do you have any examples of this?

Manchu wrote:

Pilau Rice wrote:Would you like me to give you a run down of how my dimmer switch works? So if it's not pitch black, it's not dark?

There's you're problem. You want to answer a question about how bright or dim the light is. But the question is, are the lights on or off?

My light has switched to on, because it has made the click noise to suggest that it is now on, but as I haven't turned it up to the point that the light comes on i.e makes the filament glow, it is still dark. So to me, the light is on, but the light bulb is not lit yet.

I believe that Manchu is the perfect allegory for the Tau. He/They are fighting for the greater good of what He/They see as a very concrete, subjective, goal. To them, the ultimate achievement would for everyone to have their lights firmly turned on, but as with all Imperialist, single tracked, egotistic races, this is simply a front to their subversive goal of manipulation, intimidation, and eventual subjugation of those who think differently than themselves.

There is no true answer to this poll because on one hand, the Tau truly have created a functional communistic society in which everyone who is part of, benefits. Like the Roman empire, or the American empire, or even the Soviet or Chinese empires, those who willingly took up arms for the greater cause, regardless of being naturalized citizens or not were granted rights and citizenship upon the completion of their duty. And yet, the poll is deliberately skewed, as it focuses too much on the negative aspects of Imperialism portrayed in a Grimdark universe. Rarely do we actually see the actual effects of "The Greater Good." Because it goes against the paradigm of "There is only War."

DemetriDominov wrote:There is no true answer to this poll

I hope that would be obvious! I believe the fluff supports either of the poll options. As I said, they are both reasonable interpretations of the published material. The poll just says, 'of these two reasonable interpretations, which do you prefer?'

Pilau Rice wrote:

Pada wrote:

Pilau Rice wrote:

Pada wrote:also tau dont trust everyone that says that he is whith the Greater Good

So where does that fit in?

you may say that you are whith the Greater Good and you mean it.but maybe they dont believe you and will send you do the "dirty jobs". only because you are "not from the stadard
races whith greater good"

Do you have any examples of this?

they trusted kroot after long time of war.
vespds, well maybe they guilde their leaders

Pilau Rice wrote:So to me, the light is on, but the light bulb is not lit yet.

But this is just a semantic quibble as the room is still totally dark -- at least regarding the light source in question. The switch being turned on while the bulb is not actually producing light is technically another option but it is not meaningfully different from "off." In fact, it is just another way of saying "off."

Manchu wrote:

DemetriDominov wrote:There is no true answer to this poll

I hope that would be obvious! I believe the fluff supports either of the poll options. As I said, they are both reasonable interpretations of the published material. The poll just says, 'of these two reasonable interpretations, which do you prefer?'

I cannot answer a poll in which neither option is more agreeable than the other. The lights may be on or off, but if the reality is that the answer lies in the muted dimness between the two, I cannot offer a preference of juxtaposed extremes.

Pada wrote:they trusted kroot after long time of war.
vespds, well maybe they guilde their leaders

1.) It is very difficult to understand what you want to say, when you write something so far away from standard English. I can only guess what you mean by "guilde".
2.) "The Greater Good" is not a religion and you can't be "With the Greater Good". It is a social principle that working together is better than killing each other (see my sig on Utilitarianism). And yes, they are a bit cautious with people who like killing each other more than working together. And yes, from experience they don't trust everyone claiming to not kill them anymore. But usually they are open to new alliances.

DemetriDominov wrote:I cannot offer a preference of juxtaposed extremes.

That's absurd. Generalization makes choice easier. It helps that both options contain an enormous amount of room for personal interpretation of secondary matters.

Pilau rice wrote:

Manchu wrote:At some point, the lights are off and and some point the lights are on. Dim light is still light. Darkness is never light

Would you like me to give you a run down of how my dimmer switch works?

Please do.

Switch : on or off
Dimmer: on 100-0% or off
Lights: on ( 100% ) or ( switch = off ) ( dimmer = 99% down to the light sources specific minimum ) or off.

Dimming the lights creates shades of grey. Exactly what 40k is.....

Kroothawk wrote:"The Greater Good" is not a religion and you can't be "With the Greater Good". It is a social principle that working together is better than killing each other.

This is an excellent way of putting it and provides for a useful way to rephrase the poll options:

Tau work with other races as an end in itself.

-OR-

Tau work with other races as a means to ends specific to the Tau race.

1hadhq wrote:Dimming the lights creates shades of grey.

Again, the question is not about the brightness of the light but whether it is on or off.

I voted Greater Good, because I believe that option one sums up the Tau fairly well.

Peace through galactic unification.

I can imagine the Tau forming non-aggression pacts with smaller Alien races if they didn't want to join the Tau. Perhaps they would fight them if they were an unreasonable threat, driving them back to the Alien home system and then annexing the home-world rather than resorting to wiping out the species completely.

We might see a more aggressive Tau in the next codex, due to the many unpleasant experiences they have had in the fluff since their last book.

Good point, MoD. There would come a point, I think, when fighting small pockets of resistance would not contribute to the Greater Good. I don't think the Tau are ideological zealots like the Imperium.

Manchu wrote:

DemetriDominov wrote:I cannot offer a preference of juxtaposed extremes.

That's absurd. Generalization makes choice easier. It helps that both options contain an enormous amount of room for personal interpretation of secondary matters.

Generalization also erases many truths. With that logic, I could in essence argue that the holocaust was good for the human race, and by extension Hilter was good for the human race because he instated massive depopulation across the globe, easing what problems would be around today should he not have massacred millions. My personal interpretation could be then that Hilter was therefore a good person and did us all a favor by exterminating millions of people. All of which simply goes to show how absurd generalization is in an argument, especially one of arguing utilitarianism. Utopia is not possible, and the Tau embody the hypocrisy of humanity's search for it, we could either see it as a noble goal that none will achieve but all should strive to, or folly for even trying. Either way, the fact remains they are nobly trying a moot idea in a realm where everything is under personal interpretation anyway.

Even putting Godwin's law aside, you're really missing the point. The issue is actually very simple here. I have re-stated it in so many ways over the past few pages but I think the latest one, inspired by Kroothawk, will do fine for responding to you:

Tau work with other races as an end in itself.

-OR-

Tau work with other races as a means to ends specific to the Tau race.

Now -- which do you prefer as a general approach to the Tau? Very simple. No need to talk about the Holocaust.

Kroothawk wrote:

Pada wrote:they trusted kroot after long time of war.
vespds, well maybe they guilde their leaders

1.) It is very difficult to understand what you want to say, when you write something so far away from standard English. I can only guess what you mean by "guilde".
2.) "The Greater Good" is not a religion and you can't be "With the Greater Good". It is a social principle that working together is better than killing each other (see my sig on Utilitarianism). And yes, they are a bit cautious with people who like killing each other more than working together. And yes, from experience they don't trust everyone claiming to not kill them anymore. But usually they are open to new alliances.

no you understood what i said
also :Greater Good is the idea that "all together we can make it"
so as i see the poll is " all we can make it by helping each other ( Greather Good) "
or "we can make it by geting the Tau as leaders"
thats is a way that i see it

Manchu wrote:

Tau work with other races as an end in itself.

-OR-

Tau work with other races as a means to ends specific to the Tau race.

Simply put, you still need a third option, it's quite possible that the Tau are actively doing both: serving themselves and believing they are serving the entire galaxy by their manifest destiny. I have a dozen Non-Godwin law examples of real life events that just as terrifying as the holocaust, and they apply terrifically to what the Tau are doing.

Nope. You cannot do something as an end in itself and at the same time do that thing only as a means to some other end.

You can do it . but then it is on the first

In real life, the British Colonies and later the United States of America believed that their manifest destiny of conquering the native american population and converting them to Christianity was their begrudging duty to God. They believed wholeheartedly in this idea, mind, body, and spirit that by relieving the Indian's of their land and giving it to the Europeans they could civilize the "savages" that were not improving it. The Tau are no different as they can plainly see that the Galaxy is being wasted under unrelenting bloodshed and feel as though only they can lead the galaxy to a new age of progression. Their manifest destiny therefore spans both options easily.

An inability to achieve a Utopian state/order by humanity doesn't mean that no sentient race wouldn't be able to. That is exactly the Imperium's problem when perceiving anything out of it's sphere of influence/knowledge.

Humanity is the greatest race in existence, anything that we cannot achieve is either impossible or gotten through heretical means!

DemetriDominov wrote:In real life, the British Colonies and later the United States of America believed that their manifest destiny of conquering the native american population and converting them to Christianity was their begrudging duty to God. They believed wholeheartedly in this idea, mind, body, and spirit that by relieving the Indian's of their land and giving it to the Europeans they could civilize the "savages" that were not improving it. The Tau are no different as they can plainly see that the Galaxy is being wasted under unrelenting bloodshed and feel as though only they can lead the galaxy to a new age of progression. Their manifest destiny therefore spans both options easily.

there is the difenece : if Tau believe that they should lead or not

@DemetriDominov:

The Europeans sought to bring Native Americans into civilization for their own betterment; possession of the land was a separate issue.

-OR-

The Europeans sought to destroy Native American society in order to take possession of the frontier lands; they had no concern for the Native Americans themselves.

So I am asking you to choose which you prefer to emphasize. When it comes to IRL considerations of writing history, we have to take both into account. To do otherwise would be immoral and inaccurate. But the question at stake is a faction of toy soldiers from an imaginary world.

Medium of Death wrote:An inability to achieve a Utopian state/order by humanity doesn't mean that no sentient race wouldn't be able to. That is exactly the Imperium's problem when perceiving anything out of it's sphere of influence/knowledge.

Humanity is the greatest race in existence, anything that we cannot achieve is either impossible or gotten through heretical means!

You're saying that aliens have the means of humanity's utopia? Sounds legit. After all.. we probably got the idea of heaven from them anyway. Then again, if it were by means of the Tau, I find it difficult to believe that the Tau would be capable of achieving a utopia with not only their own race, but every race that they've incorporated into their greater good. As far as a xeno's utopia, the Orks and Tyrannids seem to have already achieved it, there is endless violence across the galaxy, and near limitless supplies of food, both of which are to humanity's great displeasure.


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Manchu wrote:@DemetriDominov:

The Europeans sought to bring Native Americans into civilization for their own betterment; possession of the land was a separate issue.

-OR-

The Europeans sought to destroy Native American society in order to take possession of the frontier lands; they had no concern for the Native Americans themselves.

So I am asking you to choose which you prefer to emphasize. When it comes to IRL considerations of writing history, we have to take both into account. To do otherwise would be immoral and inaccurate. But the question at stake is a faction of toy soldiers from an imaginary world.

You do the human race a disservice by separating history for your own means. I find your post inaccurate, and its substance immoral, history tells that both options are true... so what then are we arguing over? The Tau are exactly the same thing.

DemetriDominov wrote:You do the human race a disservice by separating history for your own means. I find your post inaccurate, and its substance immoral, history tells that both options are true.

Wow it's almost as if you didn't actually read anything that I posted.

Manchu wrote:When it comes to IRL considerations of writing history, we have to take both into account. To do otherwise would be immoral and inaccurate.

Read it again, I had to write and read it a few times.

DemetriDominov wrote:Read it again, I had to write and read it a few times.

It's still sanctimonious nonsense.

We do not have the same moral responsibilities to make-believe toy soldiers as we do to real people. As I have said time and time again, both poll options have support in the fluff. It's reasonable to take either view. The point of the thread is to say, given these two reasonable approaches -- which do you prefer?

Manchu wrote:

DemetriDominov wrote:Read it again, I had to write and read it a few times.

It's still sanctimonious nonsense.

We do not have the same moral responsibilities to make-believe toy soldiers as we do to real peoples. As I have said time and time again, both poll options have support in the fluff. It reasonable to take either view. The point of the thread is to say, given these two reasonable approach -- which do you prefer?

And I asked you.... why not both?

DemetriDominov wrote:And I asked you.... why not both?

Because I am not asking "which is correct?" -- I am asking "which do you prefer?"

You already know the answer I prefer, and as far as I am aware, there are others that prefer mine as well. Not having that option in a poll makes the poll somewhat misleading to those who would want to see the results from it.

No, I really don't know what option you prefer. "Both" is not a preference one way or the other. If I ask whether you prefer red or blue, purple isn't a good answer but at least it's actually a color. Saying "both" translates to "I prefer blue to red and I prefer red to blue." It's a meaningless statement. A lot of people have tried to explain to me the "purple" option in this thread but it invariably comes down to one or the other of the existing options ("reddish blue" is blue; "bluish red" is red) or, like you, an attempt to answer some completely different question.

Clearly define your third option in the same way that Manchu has for the 'Greater Good' and 'Lesser Evil' options and perhaps you'll be understood.

Everything that you and others have said can either be put under one of the titles, mostly Lesser Evil, or it isn't backed by any fluff making it irrelevant.

Then you aren't listening and you've missed the point many have tried to convey. Your survey is incomplete and is recording inaccurately. A survey is meant to gather data on the views of others regardless of whether or not you agree with them- by not including a full spectrum of options there is little point in doing one.

More importantly, why ask a question you've already answered? What knowledge has been gained from this, by anyone? What purpose does this thread even have apart from philosophically debating tones of colors or the existence of light after switches have been thrown. Purple may still be a color, light may be emitted or even lost due to black holes in varying degrees, but it does not answer why limits be put on answers that are only half of the picture. Both are true, yet both are wrong without the other half. The truth is, the ideologies of the Tau in which you've described are not mutually exclusive, they do not, and cannot solely stand in a vacuum on their own. Just as the real histories that have inspired the fiction behind them, Imperialism, and Utilitarianism are both good and bad; just as The Greater Good the Tau strive to achieve is plagued by aspects of the Lesser Evil's they employ to achieve that ideal.

Right.. clearly defined then:

Option 3: (1.+2): (1.) The Tau wholeheartly believe in their own manifest destiny of uniting the galaxy for the Greater Good. (2.) happily accepting the obligation that they must lead the galaxy in its liberation from the dark age by any means necessary.

Fair enough?

DemetriDominov wrote:Option 3: (1.+2): (1.) The Tau wholeheartly believe in their own manifest destiny of uniting the galaxy for the Greater Good. (2.) happily accepting the obligation that they must lead the galaxy in its liberation from the dark age by any means necessary.

This sounds like the poll option I labeled "Greater Good" but it does not actually speak to the relevant issue so it is not even relevant to the thread.

Just answer this: are the Tau, from their own point of view, doing what's in the best interest for all or are they only doing what is in their own best interest?

I can't even answer that question because from their point of view, it could be that their interests are best for the rest of the galaxy.

Oh for crying out loud, it's not a factual question. It's a question about what you prefer regarding an imaginary race of toy soldiers. You know what, this just ins't the poll for you. We've established that much, I doubt we can do anything more than that.

Medium of Death wrote:I can imagine the Tau forming non-aggression pacts with smaller Alien races if they didn't want to join the Tau.

Actually, this is already official background with the Battlefleet Gothic rules:

There are other races still who do not wish to fully submit to the Empire, but who likewise have no wish for war with the Tau and will instead strike up armistices or treaties of neutrality, opening up lucrative new markets or providing new allegiances for mutual protection.

Oh, and I think it is now proven enough that DemetriDominov can't answer what he prefers

And what exactly is the greater good? Has that been defined?

Manchu, I think you need to just add an "I dunno" option.

KamikazeCanuck wrote:And what exactly is the greater good? Has that been defined?

The first step to getting a definition relies on answering the poll one way or the other. Put it another way, there is not one necessary definition.

How do you answer a question that's based on an unknown?

DemetriDominov wrote:How do you answer a question that's based on an unknown?

with a same "unknown" answer:-)

DatrhMarko wrote:

DemetriDominov wrote:How do you answer a question that's based on an unknown?

with a same "unknown" answer:-)

I like you.

Manchu wrote:

Pilau Rice wrote:So to me, the light is on, but the light bulb is not lit yet.

But this is just a semantic quibble as the room is still totally dark -- at least regarding the light source in question. The switch being turned on while the bulb is not actually producing light is technically another option but it is not meaningfully different from "off." In fact, it is just another way of saying "off."

I'll remember to tell my misses that the next time she says, you haven't turned the light off properly.

Pilau Rice wrote:I'll remember to tell my misses that the next time she says, you haven't turned the light off properly.

Sounds like her concern doesn't have anything to do with light or darkness.

Manchu wrote:Well, the poll has been up for ten days now and we're currently seeing a significant preference for Tau as genuinely pursuing the Greater Good instead of being just one more "bad guy" faction. That makes sense in some ways: if the Tau were villains, they'd be pretty bad at it compared to CSM or Dark Eldar. But I am surprised at the results, too, because 40k is so often characterized as the setting without "good guys."

This is becuase of your baseless equation of sincerity with being good guys.

It's not baseless in the slightest. A person who is genuinely interested in the well-being of others is good for that reason if no other.

Manchu wrote:It's not baseless in the slightest. A person who is genuinely interested in the well-being of others is good for that reason if no other.

Look, I'm sure that many real medieval inquisitors who tortured witches and heretics in order to make them repent genuinely wanted to save their victims' immortal souls from hell. That doesn't make them good people.

Besides, whole sincerety thing isn't as clear as you seem to think either. People want to think themselves as good people, and they come up with all sorts of justificatons for their actions and they genuinely start to believe those justifications.

It's actually just as simple as I stated. We don't need to jump to ridiculous extreme examples and all of the weird, ahistorical assumptions underpinning them. When I qualify the verb "to be" with the adverb "genuinely" in the clause "who is genuinely interested in the well-being of others," I mean just what it says. So put your paranoid-delusional suspicions of human nature aside. I'm talking about blue aliens who live in an imaginary land. If I say they are genuine then they are genuine, as far as my interpretation goes. If you say they are ingenuine then that is true as far as your interpretation goes. See what the difference is? I have chosen the "Greater Good" poll option and you have chosen the "Lesser Evil" poll option.

Just amazing.

Manchu wrote:It's actually just as simple as I stated. We don't need to jump to ridiculous extreme examples and all of the weird, ahistorical assumptions underpinning them. When I qualify the verb "to be" with the adverb "sincerely" in the clause "who is genuinely interested in the well-being of others," I mean just what it says. So put your paranoid-delusional suspicions of human nature aside. I'm talking about blue aliens who live in an imaginary land. If I say they are genuine then they are genuine, as far as my interpretation goes. If you say they are ingenuine then that is true as far as your interpretation goes. See what the difference is? I have chosen the "Greater Good" poll option and you have chosen the "Lesser Evil" poll option.

Difference is that I assume Tau to behave like psychologically and sociologocally complex conscious beings, while you expect them to conform to bad comic book stereotypes. Things just aren't that black and white.

Nope. I think Tau are quite complex. But the issue here is one of intention. And intention is at least a very important aspect of the moral quality of any agenda. You seem to presume some kind of objective goodness that exists outside of lived experience. I do not. For me, goodness only exists as it is experienced by a subject. The idea that the Tau take a genuine interest in the well-being of other races makes them good for that reason if no other. Might there be other reasons that they are bad? Sure! But that's not what we're discussing here.

Manchu wrote:Nope. I think Tau are quite complex. But the issue here is one of intention. And intention is at least a very important aspect of the moral quality of any agenda. You seem to presume some kind of objective goodness that exists outside of lived experience. I do not. For me, goodness only exists as it is experienced by a subject. The idea that the Tau take a genuine interest in the well-being of other races makes them good for that reason if no other. Might there be other reasons that they are bad? Sure! But that's not what we're discussing here.

I do not presume existence of any objective evil/good, but It just bugs me how you equate sincerity with goodness. If you wanted to ask whether we prefer the Tau to be good guys, then you should have done that.

I prefer Tau to be mostly sincere in a sense that they believe the Greater Good to truly be an optimal world order*. But I definitely do not want them to be good guys. I want them to be happily promoting a flawed system that squashes individuality.

* except that they no longer even stop to think about that. The Greater Good has been so throughly internalised that not promoting it has been unthinkable. So it is just a system that propagates itself mindlessly.

Tau has been presented far too positively in GW stuff for my liking, and I want them to be darker. I would emphasise the negative aspects of Greater Good, how it is like somothing out of Huxley's 'Brave New World', and how Tau have so utterly internalised it that they're utterly blind to it and slaves to their own system.

It's not just any sincerity that I'm talking about -- it's the sincere intention to do good.

Manchu wrote:It's not just any sincerity that I'm talking about -- it's the sincere intention to do good.

But by whose definition of 'good'?

Why, the Tau definition of course.

Manchu wrote:It's not just any sincerity that I'm talking about -- it's the sincere intention to do good.

That's a pretty mundane point, criminals and other people who do horrific things may have the sincerest of intentions, it doesn't change the fact that they do them regardless of intent. Why would the Tau be any different?

A criminal, by definition, does not have a sincere intention to do good.

Manchu wrote:A criminal, by definition, does not have a sincere intention to do good.

A criminal, by definition, is one who has committed a crime. Intention has nothing to do with it.

Manchu wrote:Why, the Tau definition of course.

Then this is completely circular and pointless. People almost always prefer to think themselves as good, and label the things they do to be good. Was there any regime ever anywhere which actually claimed to be 'evil'?

The exampes about inquisitors and imperialists were brought up exactly in order to illustrate this point.

Yes, Tau believe that they do good. I do not believe that they do. Thus I do not think they're 'good guys'.




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Manchu wrote:A criminal, by definition, does not have a sincere intention to do good.

What? No!

I'm sure many criminals have perfecty good (at least to themselves) justifications why their crime was completely justified. But they're criminals because hey broke the law.

Jefffar wrote:A criminal, by definition, is one who has committed a crime. Intention has nothing to do with it.

Look up "mens rea" on wikipedia.


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Crimson wrote:Then this is completely circular and pointless. People almost always prefer to think themselves as good, and label the things they do to be good.

Like I said, you want some kind objective goodness -- something outside of perception and experience -- something "authentic." But it doesn't exist.

Manchu wrote:Like I said, you want some kind objective goodness -- something outside of perception and experience -- something "authentic." But it doesn't exist.

Indeed it doesn't exist and thus I have no idea why you brought up whole 'good guys' thing.

And your logic is bizarre considering morals are relative. Why the Tau themselves thinking they're good would make them 'good guys' in my book - or yours? It is quite possible that yours, mine and the Tau's definitions of good are completely different.

Crimson wrote:Yes, Tau believe that they do good. I do not believe that they do. Thus I do not think they're 'good guys'.

The issue is how you prefer to understand the way Tau view themselves and how that self-image tests against IRL standards. In 40k, humanity indisputably views itself as the only race worthy of existence. No one would recognize this as good IRL. The Tau may take a genuine interest in the well-being of other races. In IRL terms, this is definitely good in and of itself -- whatever they do to act on that is a separate matter. Or the Tau may only be totally self-interested and care about other races only insomuch as using them as a means to some end -- which in IRL terms is certainly bad.

Crimson wrote:It is quite possible that yours, mine and the Tau's definitions of good are completely different.

You're making this too complicated. First of all the Tau do not exist. Their definitions are what we say they are. Second, even in this relativistic world there is only so much room for moral disagreement. If you say that other people are only a means to your ends then you a bad -- which is to say, all people who are good would consider you to be bad. There may be people who agree with you, but they are also bad. There is still broad agreement at this level of moral discussion even today.

Manchu wrote:Why, the Tau definition of course.

Then you shouldn't have said this.

Crimson wrote:

Manchu wrote:Why, the Tau definition of course.

Then you shouldn't have said this.

Manchu wrote:First of all the Tau do not exist. Their definitions are what we say they are.

No, I meant exactly what I said.

So their definition of good is what you say. And their definition happens to match yours. Got it.

Manchu wrote:

Jefffar wrote:A criminal, by definition, is one who has committed a crime. Intention has nothing to do with it.

Look up "mens rea" on wikipedia.

Mens rea only applies in some cases, not all. Again, you are over generalizing and erasing context to suit your own needs.

DemetriDominov wrote:Mens rea only applies in some cases, not all.

There are very few strict liability crimes and criminal negligence is not at issue, either.


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Crimson wrote:So their definition of good is what you say. And their definition happens to match yours. Got it.

Yep. That's the point of these two broad conceptions of the Tau. You get to pick which you prefer.

Actualy Tau are Neutal , not good , not bad. they are in the midle. I think is mosly as DemetriDominov wrote.

Manchu wrote:
]Yep. That's the point of these two broad conceptions of the Tau. You get to pick which you prefer.

At this point it should be obvious to you that to many people the answer is: 'neither.' And some of those who have picked one of the options, might not agree with your conclusion that 'Greater Good' option equals the Tau being 'good guys.' (which should be obvious, as we already established that this definition was based on your subjective definition of 'good'.)

At this point, what is obvious to me is that you are just playing a word game and actually have no interest in understanding the poll as it is.

Manchu wrote:At this point, what is obvious to me is that you are just playing a word game and actually have no interest in understanding the poll as it is.

That might be a reasonable conclusion to make were I the only person to critique the poll options or your interpretation of the results.

Manchu wrote:At this point, what is obvious to me is that you are just playing a word game and actually have no interest in understanding the poll as it is.

To whom are you directing this, three people in the past 5 mins have flat out said that neither option is suitable for the Tau on its own.. including what seems to be an actual tau player.

Crimson wrote:That might be a reasonable conclusion to make were I the only person to critique the poll options or your interpretation of the results.

I think the poll options have stood up very well to critique. As for my interpretation of the results, it's just an opinion among others that could be drawn from the numbers so far.

yes none of them is suitable on its own.....we can only choose which is the most percent of the Tau.
as tau themselfs do it for the Greater Good, Kroot do it for theirselfs

DemetriDominov wrote:three people in the past 5 mins have flat out said

No one who has participated in this discussion in the five minutes preceding your post is new to this thread.

Pada wrote:we can only choose which is the most percent of the Tau

That's exactly right. This is why the OP begins with the word "generally."

SPHESS COMMIES

Manchu wrote:

DemetriDominov wrote:three people in the past 5 mins have flat out said

No one who has participated in this discussion in the five minutes preceding your post is new to this thread.

How is that even a relevant point? I'm not new. Crimson isn't new either. Pada isn't new. And wayyyy back when Melissia made her comment, she disagreed with you too. We all disagree with your poll and it only took 5 mins for us to individually disagree with you.

"Perhaps unsurprisingly (or not, for the tau) few races are willing to surrender unreservedly, and so the Fire caste has gone to war on numerous occasions. Those worlds that will not willingly join are dragged to the negotiation table under the threat of annihilation. Those that remain openly defiant face obliteration under the orbital guns of the Air caste fleet."

-The tau codex, page ten.

"T'AU- FIRST AMONGST EQUALS"

-The tau codex, page ten.

"the tau lande a vast invasion force on Nimbosa. Commander Brightsword, the leader of the tau forces, set about the systematic extermination of the populace.

-Cities of Death, page fifty six.

I will take the second option.

@Crimson, Manchu and DemetriDominov

Ever hear the phrases, "too smart for their own good" and "can't see the forest for the trees".

The reason that I say this is that all of you have polluted the thread and the poll with absolutely meaningless bickering. While I am a big fan of philosophy, you guys should step back and actually read again what you are debating.

You are debating good vs evil or if there is even such a thing as something being "true"-ly good.
Thing is that that is not what is asked in the poll

The poll mentions the Greater Good,... ya know, that thing put into the codex by the writers so that players would know the base motivation of the Tau.
Now good/=greater good and vise-versa.

The Greater Good is a reference to a philosophical or ideological concept that is a defining precept of certain styles of government.

For those not familiar with this concept , It is like combining Vulcan logic with Machiavellis' advice to his prince. Here, it goes something like this:

A nation/state is a populace with a unique cultural identity
There is no state without a populace and a populace will lose its cultural identity with out nationhood/statehood
So
"The populace="The body of the State"
and
"The state" without "The body" will not/ cannot survive
Also
"The State defines the populace/culture"
so
"The populace cannot/will not survive without the state"

Then
The primary function of the State is to survive and to grow.



Now when it comes to the state, there is no morality, no good or evil or right and wrong....other than for the state to endure.
By endure, it is meant that the state does not diminish or lose standing in reference to the other existing nations/states.

This means that the government of the state shall always seek to maintain or improve the State, by any of the following:
Population Growth, Economic Growth, Treaty/Alliances, Expansion and many other ways that go up to and include diminishing another state to ensure the growth of their own.

When deciding how to maintain or to grow the state, the government has to follow certain precepts, such as:

Basically, The needs of "the many" outweigh the needs of "the few" or "the one".
This means that the needs of the state outweigh the needs of the individual.

The Tau are taught/raised "That it is only right and noble for the individual to set their own personal desires aside to work together for the greater good of the empire".(Pg 2 Tau Empire Codex)
This is the Greater Good.

Does this make the Tau good? No
Does it make them unselfish? Yes, incredibly so.


The only area that the Tau can possibly be judged as good or not is how they deal with other races.

To other states/nations/empires,"Are the Tau good? It is a matter of perspective.
If your Empire is large and being diminished by the Tau then, absolutely not. They would be viewed as Jackals, attacking the weak edges of the body.
If your Empire is smaller and they will allow your State/Nation/Empire to exist as part of their own? Maybe, depending on whether you view your state/empire being diminished or not.
If your Empire will be destroyed otherwise and the Tau not only guarantee that your State/Empire will survive but will also grow, Then they are good.

Seeing as the Tau empire is the only race that will do such in the year 40,000 then they are the only faction that has the possibility of being viewed from the outside as good.

TLDR; With all of this in mind, then reread the poll and you will find that the question truly being asked is do you view the Tau from the large empire(Imperiums) or do you view it from the small empire (Kroot, Demi-Urg, Vespids,ect...) point of view.
This is because tyhe Greater Good has nothing to do with the basic principle of right or wrong. It is about maintaining the life of the state.

Vychor wrote:"Perhaps unsurprisingly (or not, for the tau) few races are willing to surrender unreservedly, and so the Fire caste has gone to war on numerous occasions. Those worlds that will not willingly join are dragged to the negotiation table under the threat of annihilation. Those that remain openly defiant face obliteration under the orbital guns of the Air caste fleet."

-The tau codex, page ten.

"T'AU- FIRST AMONGST EQUALS"

-The tau codex, page ten.

"the tau lande a vast invasion force on Nimbosa. Commander Brightsword, the leader of the tau forces, set about the systematic extermination of the populace.

-Cities of Death, page fifty six.

I will take the second option.

You misunderstood the Heading on page ten

T'AU is the name of the Tau homeworld. When ever you see the apostrophe it means that it is referencing the planet. Seeing as it is the Tau homeworld and where the government is centralized, it makes sense that it is referred to as the "First".
The meaning of the statement is that the homeworld T'AU is the first out of many other equal Tau worlds....First as in it came first/ before the other worlds. The section is just giving a description of the Tau homeworld, nothing more.

Cities of Death is an expansion to 40K written from the Imperiums perspective. It should be treated as Anti-Tau propoganda, nothing more.

IIRC, The Nimbosa colony set up in a contested portion of space between the Tau and the Imperium after the Damocles Gulf Crusade.
When asked to leave or submit to Tau rule, The Nimbosans fought to the last man.

In the Tau codex, The purging/extermination of the Nimbosan forces/colonists was viewed as unnecessary and Commander Brightsword was recalled from the front-lines after the campaign to be, what many considered, censured for his actions.

Sounds like the actions of a commander who stepped out of line, not those of the Empire as a whole.


Edit to correct typo in the Tau being veiwed by outside states/empires section.

Very colorful but I don't think this:

reread the poll and you will find that the question truly being asked is do you view the Tau from the large empire(Imperiums) or do you view it from the small empire (Kroot, Demi-Urg, Vespids,ect...) point of view

is necessarily the question at all. The idea is painfully simple: Greater Good means the best possible outcome for everyone on each of their own terms or the Greater Good is just an ideological justification for the conquest and oppression of all non-Tau (and including, from the perspective of the Ethereals, all non-Ethereals).

@focusedfire: I actually agree wholeheartly with you, the Tau are good in the eyes of a violent universe, but I also believe that the Tau ethos exists in between the two options, not upon one in a vacuum.

Manchu wrote:Very colorful but I don't think this:

reread the poll and you will find that the question truly being asked is do you view the Tau from the large empire(Imperiums) or do you view it from the small empire (Kroot, Demi-Urg, Vespids,ect...) point of view

is necessarily the question at all. The idea is painfully simple: Greater Good means the best possible outcome for everyone on each of their own terms or the Greater Good is just an ideological justification for the conquest and oppression of all non-Tau (and including, from the perspective of the Ethereals, all non-Ethereals).

Your not getting it.
It comes down to you trying to apply the term Greater Good to something that it has no connection to.

The Greater Good is a Machiavellian principle of government. It is for this reason that I have never understood why people think that the Tau are not Grim Dark enough. While the Greater Good in and of itself is a benign logical concept of how a nation should be run, it can eventually be(and often is) taken too far.
By too far, I mean "The road to Hell is paved with good intentions".

While the Tau are a small empire, they will tend to behave in a manner considered as good by many outside nations/empires. But as the Empire gets larger, the needs of the state/nation/empire will require actions that will be increasingly viewed as going from less good to downright evil/bad by those outside of the Empire. There is nothing intriniscally wrong here, just the natural life cycle of empires.
What will determine the ultimate "Goodness" or "Badness" of the Tau Empire is how the Tau themselves handle power and how hard they fight powers tendency to corrupt.

For the present, Tau are both greater good and good.
In a couple of thousand years(if the empire survives) then the Tau will still be "Greater Good" and could very well still be viewed as "good" but could just as easily be viewed as "bad" (The villians).

DemetriDominov wrote:@focusedfire: I actually agree wholeheartly with you, the Tau are good in the eyes of a violent universe, but I also believe that the Tau ethos exists in between the two options, not upon one in a vacuum.

The point that I was making is that the Tau are absolutely Greater Good as in they follow this governing principle, but that Greater Good /= Good.

Now if you look at the poll and the question being asked, while Manchu has misapplied the lable of Greater Good, The poll itself can be answered by what I pointed out as the real underlying question.

Basically, you must decide from which perspective you view the Tau. While they would be nice, there is no real need for other options on the poll. Just decide if you have a large Empire looking at an upstart pov or do you identify with the smaller Empires and can see the Tau as a protector race.

I don't view the outside empire that is the same size as the Tau and chooses to fight rather than cooperate as being intrisically necessary to the poll. This is due to the fact that the Tau is willing to work co-operatively. Any nation that chooses to diminish itself through war when they could maintain and possibly proper through co-operation, is a prideful nation that is in the wrong(strictly from the pov of the "Greater Good").

focusedfire wrote:
The point that I was making is that the Tau are absolutely Greater Good as in they follow this governing principle, but that Greater Good /= Good.

Well yes, and my main complaint was that Manchu was baselessly equating the sincere support of the Greater Good with the Tau being 'good guys'.

I don't know. If we're only going by belief and not actions then I guess the Tau are fighting for the "greater good of the galaxy" as much as The Imperium is.

focusedfire wrote:Your not getting it. It comes down to you trying to apply the term Greater Good to something that it has no connection to. The Greater Good is a Machiavellian principle of government.

No, not necessarily. That is one interpretation. In this poll, it would fall into the "Lesser Evil" category (unless you are misusing the term "Machiavellian").


Automatically Appended Next Post:

KamikazeCanuck wrote:I don't know. If we're only going by belief and not actions then I guess the Tau are fighting for the "greater good of the galaxy" as much as The Imperium is.

Yeah, under that standard, it's all just fighting. Not very interesting.

Manchu wrote:

focusedfire wrote:Your not getting it. It comes down to you trying to apply the term Greater Good to something that it has no connection to. The Greater Good is a Machiavellian principle of government.

No, not necessarily. That is one interpretation. In this poll, it would fall into the "Lesser Evil" category (unless you are misusing the term "Machiavellian").

Not misused, rather, appropriately used.

There are several correct uses for the term Machiavellian.
Some of the uses have negative connotations while others do not. The non-perjorative use of the term "Mavhiavellian Political Concept" is simply a reference to his advocating that politics be emancipated from theology and moral philosophy.

As a matter of fact, just as many individuals erroniously believe that Machiavelli = evil, There are many who believe that he both hated and had no use for religion.
This couldn't be farther from the truth, he believed that religion has an important role in maintaining "order" within the populace.

Now, in modern times, people have come believe that the necessity of religion iss no longer applicable. Yet, when religion is removed from these populaces/nations, they end up having to establish an artificial construct that performs the same job.

Even now, with the pacifying comforts of modern daily life as supplied by the electrical grid, utility companies and corporate food suppliers, modern nations still have to establish tradition based organizations to maintain help order and control of their citizens.
In the case of the Tau(Much like the modern U.S.A. and many other nations), they have made their political system into the "New Religion".

The Tau are a race that have a machiavellian based republican political system that also serves as an ersatz religion. Machiavellian systems does not preclude a populace from being in and of themselves good.


So, to answer the poll, The Tau are Greater Good personified as per the term and how it is described in the codex.

If we are to use what you are calling the greater good as an answer then by your description we need to ignore the Greater Good moniker and view the Tau solely by how they relate to their peers(Other Empires and races outside of their own)


IMO, the Tau are good, "for now".

Very hard to decide, to me they seem like space communists so how can they not be good but then again unless of course you see their feet which are hooves and since tyranids, beastmen, horses and unicorns (the 4 most evil things ever) have hooves as well they must be evil.

I choose C
They are only evil if you look at their feet/hooves, so as long as you don't stare they are good

focusedfire wrote:So, to answer the poll, The Tau are Greater Good personified as per the term and how it is described in the codex.

Begs the question.

I don't think the codex did good job defining what the GG is. It says aun knows best and says that we all have to work together, but we never do learn how the GG feels about overtime pay, or wearing white after laborday. It's quite vague on most topics.

There is even some vagueness around whether (or how) "Aun knows best" what with Shadowsun recapturing the loyalty of the Fire Caste after the defection of Farsight.

Manchu wrote:There is even some vagueness around whether (or how) "Aun knows best" what with Shadowsun recapturing the loyalty of the Fire Caste after the defection of Farsight.

The GG is not really vague on that. It's one of it's foundling principles. Reality might question how well the aun can lead, but the GG dose not.

Etherials need Greater Good.
Greater Good dont need Etherials, but it will be imposible to stay pure :/

focusedfire wrote: IMO, the Tau are good, "for now".

I like you; We seem to have reached the same conclusion from two totally different directions.

The Tau are doing a fairly good job of goodguy'ing throughout their sector, poking the Imperium and gobbling up some smaller races into their domain. I sincerely doubt that the tau method of growth is sustainable for the empire, though; renegades such as Farsight prove that. Maybe they'll have a major schism one day (Like the christians did with Martin Luther), and be split into two different sects who agree on the Greater Good, but differ violently on how to acheive it.

Until that happens, the Tau are good from my standpoint as a Tau player.

GW ought to have less Imperium-centric storytelling, and let the Xenos speak for themselves a little more. It's tiring to hear all the FotM MEQ guys at my FLGS go on and on about how every Xenos is evil. The 40k setting, whilst populated by a bunch of d-bags, isn't devoid of genuine goodness, otherwise I wouldn't care for it whatsoever, as it would be uninteresting and bland. Comparatively.

Finished Fire Warrior last night for the first time. It gives an interesting view on the Greater Good.

If you have questions about philosophy, don't ask the drill sergeant

Or the message board!