So as an ork and a guard player, I've been noticing a lot of worry over snipers and their ability to "pick out every useful unit we have", and I want to know where this fear is coming from? We're talking about a weapon that only gets to allocate on a 6 to hit, always wounds on a +4 (in most circumstances at least, ignoring guys like vindicaires), has to get through armor unless they get a 6, and then has to hope the opponent fails their look out sir!, or that its a special weapon or something that doesn't get the roll. With all those "ifs" I hardly see this as the bringer of gloom and doom that some people are worried about. Even a guard sergeant has a fairly reliable chance to survive it, and guys like nobs or marine sergeants would have to get very unlucky to get killed by a single shot.

Yes, an army like guard or space marines spamming snipers could be a problem, but if your opponent is obsessed with picking out models to the point where they're going to focus only on that and ignore their ability to deal with heavy armor, horde infantry, and fliers, then congratulations, I'll let them pick off a few special weapons and sarges a turn, while my leman russes go play.

Is there something I'm missing to this? Because honestly, I really don't see the big deal with these things. I'll probably field an IG sniper rifle spam army sometime for kicks and giggles, but even there, I really don't see it being an uber death machine at all.

So what are your thoughts guys. Sniper rifles almost as useless as before, or are they now the most rediculous weapon upgrade guard can buy for 5pts?

In my opinion the Precise Shot of Sniper Rifle is gravy. Any Sniper (since BS doesn't change the odds of a Precise Shot) has a 5% chance to snipe a Special Weapon out of a Guard squad which even with a full squad of Ratlings is only a 50% chance which isn't something to start worrying about.

However if your opponent is good at rolling 6's (because let's face it dice aren't as random as all of our Math likes to pretend they are) then Precise Shot can be a problem and if they can do it consistently then they can get Rending Precise Shots denying you your save.

In terms of pure probability Sniper Rifles aren't that scary. In terms of practiced rollers deciding they don't want you to have any Meltaguns anymore they can be a problem.

Snipers (like many other units) sucked in 5:ed and still suck in 6:ed and no body takes them...ever.

Lets hope the lack of sales for these units hurt GW enough to teach them a lesson not to make unusable units in the future (who am I kidding here).

Logically speaking GW ought to have noticed by now that nobody buys legion of the damned, sniper scouts or vanguard vets and thus make them more useful on the tabletop from the overpriced heaps of dung they are not but it´s GW we are talking about...

Well, I'd be worried of the necron sniper unit at least, 10 guys with rapid fire sniper guns that could mark for 2+ wounding and can deep strike in.

if i could roll 6's when i wanted i wouldn't need snipers to win a game....

Snipers are good overall, they have a myriad of rules, not the least of which is rending. Overall i think they got more valuable as the need for ap 2 (through rending) has gone up. It's not a major change though, just a slight up shift in their usefulness.

There are a lot more then just ratlings too, in fact they're probably the least scary snipers out there. Rapid fire DS'ing Necron Deathmarks accompanied by a Destroyer lord for preferred enemy on their marked target....can make a mess. Eldar have tons of them... ect.

The doom and gloom come from the same people who were screaming "OMG THE TANKZ ARE USELESS!?!?!?! I HATE GW!!!"

I never really thought snipers were useless. In my evil IG I have a squad of ratlings that I made from skaven. Aside from looking cool, I've found them pretty useful. Then again, I don't immediately discount pinning.

Basically, for every full squad (6+) of ratlings you field, you can pick out one individual model per turn. It's not that big a threat really. It can however be a tactical advantage if you're smart about it. They are not a "KILL ALL THE IC BWAHAHAHAHA" unit. Honestly, I'd use the allocated hits to take out special weapons. They usually don't get LOS!.

They aren't scary, but they at least have more of a purpose than 5th. If you can fit a small squad of snipers in as a objective camping troops, it might be worth it. Especially for eldar that for 95 points you can get 5 guys to sit back and hope to roll some 6s to hit. Not game changing, unless it comes at a great time and he picks off a guy with melta bombs charging a wraithlord, or a melta-gun next to a tank.

A lot of people love snipers, so at least the new rules give them a little viability.

Deathmarks and Rangers are probably the only sniper units that are particularly deadly. Characters are a bigger danger when it comes to picking out units. For most units you can just accept slightly more vulnerability, I'd say that only commisars are an issue being both squishy and vital to blobs.

Snipers were always good at killing MCs and elite infantry. They just now have a single extra rule that if you're lucky you can attempt to place wounds.

There were several squads out there that relied on having hidden weapon upgrades in order to survive. Hidden powerfists, hidden commissars, hidden icons, hidden warlocks, and, of course, hidden special or heavy weapons.

Units that did not rely on hidden stuff, like vehicles, monstrous creatures, uniform squad like scouts or wraithlord, still really don't care about sniper rifles (which is why they're still cheap, other than lack of new codices, of course).

However, for those units who were relying on hidden things, then snipers, along with character precise shot and barrage weapons, really do bring a serious complication.

Just look at those units that can bring a lot of them, like ratlings or scouts. A unit of 10 snipers puts down just shy of two precise shots per turn, which means you're very likely to at least force an armor save, which against guardsmen means you're likely seeing that guardsman killed. Furthermore, sniper rifles still have a chance of rending, which means even space marines aren't safe.

Yes, there's look out, sir, but that only works on a 4+ most of the time, and, more importantly, it doesn't work AT ALL if the sniped model isn't a character (like a standard bearer or a weapon upgrade). If you weren't relying on hidden things in the squad, it doesn't matter, but when the loss of a single mini can really screw with the squad, then snipers (along with other methods above) actually are important.

Take the blob, for example. A squad of 10 rangers puts down 1.66 precise shots. 0.27 wound by rending and another .55 wound and make it past an armor save. That would be 0.82 of your characters killed per turn, which is reduced to .41 with look out, sir.

Put it again, every other turn it survives (which is going to be easier given that most proper sniper units have some form of stealth), that unit is removing a commissar every other turn. Without the commissar, that unit is now just a collection of infantry squads, not a blob, which is a huge difference, especially when close combat comes around. With a little luck, a single enemy unit could shut down two blobs in the firs two turns of the game, which will really dismantle your plans.

Likewise, what happens if you snipe the icons off the board? All those summoned lesser demons now count as destroyed. What happens if you snipe out the aspiring champions? It means that summoned greater demon is going to have to possess an expensive HQ choice. What happens if you snipe out those couple of Klaws? Good luck to that ork army to destroy heavy armor.

Sniper weapons stayed most of their cruddy in most circumstances. Against a few lists, though, they now dismantle them with relative ease.

SM Scouts not bad, but not great. Eldar Rangers are pretty good. The main reason is when they get a 6 and can allocate, it is AP1. Also don't go for characters at first. go for models with Special weapons, and banners, and other things like that first. Then worry about the characters. Of course even if the LOS works, you still killed a model.

But Snipers big role will still be taking down MC's

I have always had a soft spot for my scouts.

At 100 points I get.
- 5 bodies to sit on a objective
- 2+ or 3+ cover save on average in my games... 2+ if they go to ground.
- A ML addition (templates help low BS imo)
- Rending, wounding on 4s regardless, pinning, can glance AV12 if lucky, and now precision shot.

While they are not AMAZING at anything, 1 pinning result in a game can change the tide of battle and I havent found a more cost effective backfield objective sitter yet.

One small help to IG: counter snipe them with Artillery!
To make the most of the sniper rifle, they need to stay still.
Start dropping pie plates from ________ (insert favorite Artty) on them
and they'll move, GtG or die.

You could drop Stormtroopers or Marbo on them too.

At the guys talking about the more scary snipers, other than the necron one (which I've never played against) I'm still not intimidated by them. You're still dropping alot of points just on the odds that you *might* kill a special weapon or sarge a turn. Add in the fact that these are high specialized unit, and that they wont be very helpful in most other situations, i don't think we'll see them often. You're often sinking well over a hundred points a turn, just for a decent chance on killing a GUARDSMAN, and thats not counting MEQ or other similarly tough infantry. This isn't like a 105pt melta stormie squad, which will easily make it's points back in almost any situation, despite being highly specialized. This is a type of weapon that will only be truly useful in a select few circumstances. What do you do with them if you ran into deathwing, or nob bikers? Pray you get really lucky and get lots of 6's? What do you with them against a leafblower list, or henchmen spam? Try and get a lucky rend on a transport?

Another thing worth mentioning is that most snipers are treated as heavy weapons, meaning they'll want to stay still if they're going to be effective. It wouldn't be too hard to position critical models out of sight of snipers especially for an army like IG with our tinier guardsmen. And if my oponent is bringing enough snipers to ensure that he can hit me no matter what, good job, thats a ton of points he should have spent on stuff that could kill my tanks, or my vendettas, or the other 100 angry guardsmen standing next to that plasma guy.

I just dont believe we'll see them in large enough numbers to post a serious threat, unless a person is actively tailoring a list to beat you. There are too many lists out there that would just ignore the snipers for one reason or another, and I don't think we'll see them in too many TAAC lists for that reason. I don't know how it is in your stores, but since thats the only lists we see at where I play, i'm not really worried about them.

Firstly, any weapon upgrade only gives you the chance to kill something. Nothing is guaranteed in the world of shooting in 40k.

Secondly, you're looking at this too narrowly. It's not just that you kill a guardsman, it's that you kill a COMMISSAR, which is way, way more important to what happens in future turns.

The same is true of everything else. It's not just that you've killed a marine with a meltagun, it's that you save yourself all possible damage that that meltagun could have caused. Furthermore, this will make an impact on future tactical decisions. Perhaps that boy mob will have to run away from your tanks without a klaw to attack them with. Perhaps your terminators can now stride freely onto an objective now that there are fewer plasma guns pointed at them.

In this case, a sniper rifle is somewhat subtle, but that doesn't mean that you can just dismiss them. Not all units, weapons and upgrades can be judged purely by how many points they kill back, and the sniper rifle is certainly one such exception.

My experience so far is that snipers, who aren't Deathmarks, are still overpriced, and far too unreliable to have any impact on the game at large.

I agree with Ailaros, If I can reach out a kill the forward melta gun, I killed under 30pts. But I very well might have saved a 50 point Termie, or a 250 point Landraider.

Most snipers are quite terrible. Rangers (pathfinders) are pretty good imho. With their 2+ cover save in ruins, scoring, 5 or 6 on hit to have AP 1, ability to snipe with 6 to hit and Guide casted on them, they are very mean against elite infantry (MEQ). They can snipe special weapons or characters from the unit. They can even kill the whole marine unit because they can mostly survive long enough.

My friend (who plays vanilla marines) has a rather silly obsession with snipers now. He thinks that the wound allocation on 6s is awesome, but he has yet to get his points back from them, heck in the last game I'm not sure if they even fired once!

But then again, I play tau and think his 36" range is cute while I beat up on the rest of his force from farther away.

I think its more of a psychlogical thing with snipers seasoned players wont be to fussed when there sgt is dropped but if they get lucky and manage to drop your space marine warlord or your warboss in a single turn it would create a block in the mind that can put a person off balence anyway im not gonna go out and buy 40 snipers however i may take a small unit of ratlings just for that psychological aspect


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Dont forget snipers wound on a 4+ they are still excellent for taking out high toughness Monsterous creatures nurgle bikers etc

Kevin949 wrote:Well, I'd be worried of the necron sniper unit at least, 10 guys with rapid fire sniper guns that could mark for 2+ wounding and can deep strike in.

...along with our awesome flamers. Huarhuar.

Sigvatr wrote:

Kevin949 wrote:Well, I'd be worried of the necron sniper unit at least, 10 guys with rapid fire sniper guns that could mark for 2+ wounding and can deep strike in.

...along with our awesome flamers. Huarhuar.

Ya, but that wasn't part of the discussion really and is wholly separate from just snipers.

Kevin949 wrote:

Sigvatr wrote:

Kevin949 wrote:Well, I'd be worried of the necron sniper unit at least, 10 guys with rapid fire sniper guns that could mark for 2+ wounding and can deep strike in.

...along with our awesome flamers. Huarhuar.

Ya, but that wasn't part of the discussion really and is wholly separate from just snipers.

I disagree partially. If it's only about the Sniper rule, then yes, it's OOT, but if we're talking about snipers, then it's worth mentioning as this possiblity greatly buffs Eliminators.

You can not speak so much in general any more.
For IG guardmen sniper rifles are cheap and long range and can shoot from chimeras, so can be useful for the platoon command squad.
Ratlings are fun.

Telion is awesome. Then troops for vanilla are an issue so snipers with camo cloaks are at least on par with options available.

Eldar can make the roll of 6 work for them, scoring and increased cover save, what is not to like.

BA sometimes like to have a cheap scoring unit to spend points elsewhere, or sometimes a scoring unit to sit behind an ADL with some dev. squads. This is a very viable tactic.

Anyway there are some examples, from that list most are relatively hard to kill, then only Telion and Eldar are the ones you should be scared by, as the question asks.

Ailaros wrote:
Secondly, you're looking at this too narrowly. It's not just that you kill a guardsman, it's that you kill a COMMISSAR, which is way, way more important to what happens in future turns.

There are a lot of ifs attached to that kill. If you hit, if you roll a 6, if you wound, if the save is failed and if the look out sir roll is failed (if applicable); in an average game it will take a lot of shots to kill that Commissar. Weapon crew kills are easier, but only by a little.

Snipers are OK, good enough to be worth including on the off chance that they do something spectacular, but if points are tight they will quickly find themselves being left at home.

Sigvatr wrote:

Kevin949 wrote:

Sigvatr wrote:

Kevin949 wrote:Well, I'd be worried of the necron sniper unit at least, 10 guys with rapid fire sniper guns that could mark for 2+ wounding and can deep strike in.

...along with our awesome flamers. Huarhuar.

Ya, but that wasn't part of the discussion really and is wholly separate from just snipers.

I disagree partially. If it's only about the Sniper rule, then yes, it's OOT, but if we're talking about snipers, then it's worth mentioning as this possiblity greatly buffs Eliminators.

But it's not actually the deathmarks doing anything, it's the cryptek benefiting from a rule specific to that unit, has pretty much nothing to do with snipers as far as this topic goes. Yes, it makes the deathmarks much more a priority target for the enemy but even then it's an ability that's only good against one unit (or an IC and subsequently whoever he attaches to).

What really sets the deathmarks apart from other snipers and makes them a little more worrisome for the enemy is the RP, higher save than most other snipers, can deepstrike, and have rapid fire weapons instead of heavy. Especially now that they got rid of the limitation for moving with rapid fire weapons. Sure they don't have the range that others have, but they get far more shots and are generally more survivable than other snipers.

But ya, you stick a despair-tek with veil and an orb-lord in that unit and you've got a great harassing unit.

Palindrome wrote:

Ailaros wrote:Secondly, you're looking at this too narrowly. It's not just that you kill a guardsman, it's that you kill a COMMISSAR, which is way, way more important to what happens in future turns.

There are a lot of ifs attached to that kill.

... and if you'd actually read before you wrote, you would have noticed...

Ailaros wrote:Take the blob, for example. A squad of 10 rangers puts down 1.66 precise shots. 0.27 wound by rending and another .55 wound and make it past an armor save. That would be 0.82 of your characters killed per turn, which is reduced to .41 with look out, sir.

Put it again, every other turn it survives (which is going to be easier given that most proper sniper units have some form of stealth), that unit is removing a commissar every other turn. Without the commissar, that unit is now just a collection of infantry squads, not a blob, which is a huge difference, especially when close combat comes around. With a little luck, a single enemy unit could shut down two blobs in the firs two turns of the game, which will really dismantle your plans.

These kinds of odds are way too risky to base a blob list on. This is mostly because that the results of a failure (in this case, a commissar getting killed), are catastrophic to the entire strategy you were pursuing.

Half the games you play, you're running blobs. The other half of the games you play are just really expensive infantry squads. You don't know until the bottom of turn 1 or 2. This is incredibly disruptive. I mean, imagine there was a rule that said on a 4+, whenever a transport is killed, the entire squad is wiped out straight away, and on a 1, 2, or 3, you used the regular rules for surviving the wreck of a transport. That would be so disruptive so as to make mech armies unplayable, regardless of if you only had a 50-50 shot of it happening in any particular game.

Ailaros wrote:
Half the games you play, you're running blobs. The other half of the games you play are just really expensive infantry squads. You don't know until the bottom of turn 1 or 2. This is incredibly disruptive. I mean, imagine there was a rule that said on a 4+, whenever a transport is killed, the entire squad is wiped out straight away, and on a 1, 2, or 3, you used the regular rules for surviving the wreck of a transport. That would be so disruptive so as to make mech armies unplayable, regardless of if you only had a 50-50 shot of it happening in any particular game.

That's an incredibly inaccurate comparison. One precise shot does not kill the whole unit, it kills only one Commissar. The blob has lost Stubborn and a power axe only.

Please avoid hyperbolic analogies in the future.

I think they are still bad.

DarknessEternal wrote:That's an incredibly inaccurate comparison. One precise shot does not kill the whole unit, it kills only one Commissar. The blob has lost Stubborn and a power axe only.

Please avoid hyperbolic analogies in the future.

You missed the point. The analogy was for how disruptive sniper fire can be to the strategy of some armies, not how many models a single sniper rifle can kill.

And that's exactly what I think other people are missing here too. Sniper rifles don't kill many points worth of models, but their strategic impact can be much bigger than simply the points they make back.

I cant speak for any other sniper but the Eldar rangers/pathfinders. The fact that these are troops and only cost me 95/120 points for 5 are great. Guardians used to be my objective camper with a scatter laser giving me, after BS3, 2 S6 shots at 36". I now take rangers for a very similar price who have less bodies yes, but have great cover saves. They hit with 3.33 shots and 1 usually is a precision AP1 shot. The rangers can also go to group if needed and have a stupid good cover save and snapfire there guns only hitting on 6s. But thats the only roll that really is important anyway. So that is fine with me. My guardians never did anything great. And they dont even have the real ability to lucky and do something awesome either. Maybe the occasional rhino pop with the laser. And usually my rangers will only do a little better comparatively. But they have a much better "critical hit" if you will. They at least have a chance to pull off a stellar shot that can change major things in a game. I like to play with Wraithlords. So if I snipe out the missile launchers from a few squads then my wraithlords are now much more survivable. Same goes with plasma and melta. It gives me the chance to pick who I want to remove, effectively reducing the amount of shots that would be fired at certain prime targets in my army. If that makes any sense. So yea my ranger squad may only take out 3 marines. But thats 3 less Krak missiles coming towards my Lord's face.


I think I capture what Ailaros is trying to say.

Just a heads up, you can't make use of the precise shot while snap firing, such as after having moved models armed with a heavy weapon like a sniper rifle.

Ailaros wrote:Just a heads up, you can't make use of the precise shot while snap firing, such as after having moved models armed with a heavy weapon like a sniper rifle.

Indeed.

Really the only thing that kind of mitigates sniper spam is the fact that all characters can do precise shots. Which, for necrons, is particularly deadly since the entire court are characters and obviously all the HQ choices, plus you add in a squad of snipers as well...that's a lot of potential precision shots. Lance-teks hitting precision shots are probably FAR better than counting on a snipers 6 to rend AFTER the 6 to hit.

Also, I totally get what you're saying Ailaros. Using squads as buffers, or ablative wounds as people would say previously, is less effective in this edition and that is the point you're trying to get across. It's not that snipers will take out 200 or 300 points (at least not reliably), it's that they take out that one guy that the rest of the squad was most likely there to protect thus negating the point of taking that giant, most likely expensive squad.

Ailaros wrote:Just a heads up, you can't make use of the precise shot while snap firing, such as after having moved models armed with a heavy weapon like a sniper rifle.

That is ok. They still get AP1 so they still can punch any armour. The point I was making was that going to ground doesnt make them completely useless besides getting better cover.

I like snipers for the extra range.
An extra 12" is nice to have, when you've got a common deployment with a very deep battlefield.

10 sniper scouts get 5 hits and 2.5 wounds a turn.
10 bolter scounts get 5 hits, and 2.5 wounds per turn against T4 opponents, 3.33 against T3 opponents.

So going sniper is a wash against T4, worse against T3 and better against anything T5+, at 12-24".
Bolters are better within 12" (rapid fire) and worse against 24-36".

On the whole, paying zero points to go from bolter to sniper rifle seems like the correct cost.
It's better in some areas, worse in others.

As for sniping characters; you're looking at a 2% chance to snipe a power armored character with each shot. That jumps to 6.5% to snipe a 5+ save non-character, per shot.

So with full squads, it's ~20% for MEQ characters and 65% for GEQ non-characters.

I know my snipers are trained to go for special weapons, leaving the characters to take it from the indirect fire.

-Matt

Ailaros wrote:

DarknessEternal wrote:That's an incredibly inaccurate comparison. One precise shot does not kill the whole unit, it kills only one Commissar. The blob has lost Stubborn and a power axe only.

Please avoid hyperbolic analogies in the future.

You missed the point. The analogy was for how disruptive sniper fire can be to the strategy of some armies, not how many models a single sniper rifle can kill.

And that's exactly what I think other people are missing here too. Sniper rifles don't kill many points worth of models, but their strategic impact can be much bigger than simply the points they make back.

While you are missing the relatively low chance that snipers will kill their high value target. They can have a significant impact, its just not all that likely. Not all snipers are equal of course but I wouldn't be expecting miracles from Guard or Scout snipers.

Kevin949 wrote: Using squads as buffers, or ablative wounds as people would say previously, is less effective in this edition and that is the point you're trying to get across. It's not that snipers will take out 200 or 300 points (at least not reliably), it's that they take out that one guy that the rest of the squad was most likely there to protect thus negating the point of taking that giant, most likely expensive squad.

Exactly. It's not that snipers have become lords of war, it's that snipers (along with new barrage and other things), has basically invalidated an entire class of strategy. If you weren't using that strategy, you won't notice much of a difference. If you were, then it makes a huge difference.

HawaiiMatt wrote:As for sniping characters; you're looking at a 2% chance to snipe a power armored character with each shot.

?

Assuming you're trying to snipe a meltagun from a marine squad, you're getting 1 precise shot per 6 sniper shots. 10 scouts yields 1.666 precise shots. 0.27 wound with rending, and another .7 that wound without rending, which filters down to .23 after armor saves. That's a .5, or, put another way, every other time a unit of scouts shoots at a tac squad, they pick off a heavy or special weapon gunner. That's rather serious.

Meanwhile, against a sergeant, it's one in 4 turns, but what happens when that 1 in 4 happens the first turn? What if the model you lost had an icon or a homing beacon? What if it killed off that squad's only serious anti-tank capability, or shut down its only weapon that could shoot further than 24"?

Depending on the situation, that could actually be a big deal.

I'd also note that the other chief beneift of sniper rifles - pinning - has the same effect. It's not that likely to happen, but when it does, it can be terribly disruptive, depending on the circumstances.

10 rangers (prescienced) generate just over 3 AP1 allocatable shots, 1.5 allocatable wounds, .75 after Look Out Sir. This means that, at solid odds, they can force a blob squad to both lose stubborn and take a LD 8 pinning test that they have about a 27% chance to fail.

75% chance to neuter a squad, with a further 27% chance to completely negate them for the next turn, with the same chance to do that on each successive turn to another blob.

Not game breaking, but certainly a major impact on the opponent's survivability.

Tuagh wrote:10 rangers (prescienced) generate just over 3 AP1 allocatable shots, 1.5 allocatable wounds, .75 after Look Out Sir. This means that, at solid odds, they can force a blob squad to both lose stubborn and take a LD 8 pinning test that they have about a 27% chance to fail.

75% chance to neuter a squad, with a further 27% chance to completely negate them for the next turn, with the same chance to do that on each successive turn to another blob.

Not game breaking, but certainly a major impact on the opponent's survivability.

This is a good explanation of what a few of us were trying to explain. Thank you. Granted this is only the eldar rangers. Space marine snipers might not be on par :-P

Tuagh wrote:10 rangers (prescienced) generate just over 3 AP1 allocatable shots, 1.5 allocatable wounds, .75 after Look Out Sir. This means that, at solid odds, they can force a blob squad to both lose stubborn and take a LD 8 pinning test that they have about a 27% chance to fail.

75% chance to neuter a squad, with a further 27% chance to completely negate them for the next turn, with the same chance to do that on each successive turn to another blob.

Not game breaking, but certainly a major impact on the opponent's survivability.

And your once in a blue moon this actually happens is still not worth the cost.

Once in a blue moon?

Did you miss the part about 75%? A blue moon happens only once every two or three years. This event is likely going to happen a couple of times a game... per ranger squad...

DarknessEternal wrote:

Tuagh wrote:10 rangers (prescienced) generate just over 3 AP1 allocatable shots, 1.5 allocatable wounds, .75 after Look Out Sir. This means that, at solid odds, they can force a blob squad to both lose stubborn and take a LD 8 pinning test that they have about a 27% chance to fail.

75% chance to neuter a squad, with a further 27% chance to completely negate them for the next turn, with the same chance to do that on each successive turn to another blob.

Not game breaking, but certainly a major impact on the opponent's survivability.

And your once in a blue moon this actually happens is still not worth the cost.

Not worth the cost??? Are you serious? Maybe not worth the cost in another codex, but in Codex Eldar, they are very much worth the cost. The pathfinder upgrade is debatable, but plain rangers aren't overpriced. 95 for 5 that can sit on a rear objective and support. Thats better then a group of guardians. They are more survivable then a group of equal costing dire avengers. And can arguably do more damage (which really isnt the point of snipers anyway) over the course of the game. If you think of a marksman in any military, his job isnt to rack up the biggest kill count. It usually would be to take out high priority targets. This would then influence the rest of the war. So i feel that snipers in 40k do a similar thing.

Ailaros wrote:Once in a blue moon?

Did you miss the part about 75%? A blue moon happens only once every two or three years. This event is likely going to happen a couple of times a game... per ranger squad...

Sorry ailaros, normally I agree with what you post and enjoy reading your insights, but I think we're just going to have to agree to disagree on this one.

What I'm trying to say mostly isn't that snipers can't screw over Blob guard (they can and do) but that against many armies they wont be able to do much. Mass infantry guard isn't exactly the only list out there, and many other lists don't have a T3, +5 save commissar as the lynchpin to their strategy. Just because they wreck blob guard, does not mean they'll trash most other armies.

What i'm trying to say is that for the investment you put in to get that reliable one or two guys killed a turn a turn, could have been better used in other areas. People are mentioning a couple of decent dedicated sniper units, but i keep noticing the same thing, they cost a good chunk of points for what they do. A good commander will not be bringing just one or two meltaguns to kill a tank, he'll have several for redundancy. He wont just throw a single squad with a lone meltagun and go "god i hope this works" if he can help it. Adding to that, why pay for a very specialized and very inflexible weapon, when I can buy other weapons/units that are far more flexible and useful? Yes, that sniper can really screw a unit over, if it snipes that special weapon out or nails the sarge, but what else can you do with it? Besides hunt monstrous creatures and attempt to get a lucky shot on light armor, not much. I'd rather wipe the unit entirely with a leman russ battlecannon shot, or through a good FRFSRF volley, than hope I cripple it with a few snipers.

For example, what guard player would buy two sniper rifles over an autocannon? They have the same AP (except for rend) and same amount of shots. Sniper wounds everything on +4, AC is wounding everything up to T 5 on a +2. AC can kill light to medium armor reliably, snipers require a lucky shot. Etc. Etc.

MrMoustaffa wrote:

Ailaros wrote:Once in a blue moon?

Did you miss the part about 75%? A blue moon happens only once every two or three years. This event is likely going to happen a couple of times a game... per ranger squad...

Sorry ailaros, normally I agree with what you post and enjoy reading your insights, but I think we're just going to have to agree to disagree on this one.

What I'm trying to say mostly isn't that snipers can't screw over Blob guard (they can and do) but that against many armies they wont be able to do much. Mass infantry guard isn't exactly the only list out there, and many other lists don't have a T3, +5 save commissar as the lynchpin to their strategy. Just because they wreck blob guard, does not mean they'll trash most other armies.

What i'm trying to say is that for the investment you put in to get that reliable one or two guys killed a turn a turn, could have been better used in other areas. People are mentioning a couple of decent dedicated sniper units, but i keep noticing the same thing, they cost a good chunk of points for what they do. A good commander will not be bringing just one or two meltaguns to kill a tank, he'll have several for redundancy. He wont just throw a single squad with a lone meltagun and go "god i hope this works" if he can help it. Adding to that, why pay for a very specialized and very inflexible weapon, when I can buy other weapons/units that are far more flexible and useful? Yes, that sniper can really screw a unit over, if it snipes that special weapon out or nails the sarge, but what else can you do with it? Besides hunt monstrous creatures and attempt to get a lucky shot on light armor, not much. I'd rather wipe the unit entirely with a leman russ battlecannon shot, or through a good FRFSRF volley, than hope I cripple it with a few snipers.

For example, what guard player would buy two sniper rifles over an autocannon? They have the same AP (except for rend) and same amount of shots. Sniper wounds everything on +4, AC is wounding everything up to T 5 on a +2. AC can kill light to medium armor reliably, snipers require a lucky shot. Etc. Etc.

I can definitely understand the point you are making here. I sure as heck would rater have an autocannon or a leman russ. So i'd think from a guard standpoint, the new rules for sniping dont really merit an inclusion for this unit. I have minimal experience with any army BUT Eldar. So speaking from an Eldar standpoint, I dont take rangers because of how incredibly amazing they are. I take them because My other troop choices aren't really any better and are in most cases worse. The only other troop choice that I can see being taken is GJB's. They work. Dire avengers need a transport so in the end they cost more and can only hold one objective (compared to spending the same amount of point on 2 units of rangers) and must be outside of their transport now to do so. They aren't really an objective sitter though. They are also now out-ranged pretty well by simple rapidfire weapons. So Rangers will see play more so out of a need for a decent troop choice. So I very much welcome the new benefits they have, even if they aren't a super awesome incredible boost. Just enough to warrant they slot in my lists.

Take Scout Snipers for example:

Assuming they take a heavy weapon, that's 9 shots, with a 50% chance to hit. so, 4.5 hits. Then you have a 50% chance to wound... 2.25 wounds.

So, with about 2~ wounds on a squad, the unit that gets shot at then gets saves. Unless one of those two wounds is a 6, in which case, they'd get a cover / invulnerable save.

Sure, you could potentially hit the jackpot with snipers. But overall, if I wanted two models dead a turn, I can find something else at the price tag of 150pts to do the job. A 2x Autocannon Dread, and i'd still have 25pts to play around with.

MrMoustaffa wrote:Sorry ailaros, normally I agree with what you post and enjoy reading your insights, but I think we're just going to have to agree to disagree on this one.

What I'm trying to say mostly isn't that snipers can't screw over Blob guard (they can and do) but that against many armies they wont be able to do much.

We're actually in agreement here:

Ailaros wrote:It's not that snipers have become lords of war, it's that snipers (along with new barrage and other things), has basically invalidated an entire class of strategy. If you weren't using that strategy, you won't notice much of a difference. If you were, then it makes a huge difference.

However, I would also note that snipers aren't only useful against armies that were relying on hidden upgrades. Certainly it's not going to be a game breaker like it would be against certain lists, but sniper rifles are still slightly useful outside of this role, such as in taking down monstrous creatures. I mean, they still have rending, and pinning, which still isn't completely worthless.

Plus, even if you weren't RELYING on hidden upgrades, it's still going to be pretty annoying when they're picked out of squads. It still might very well have a strategic impact. Even against armies that it's not specialized against, the quality of a sniper rifle has still risen from really awful to roughly that of a flamer - not great perhaps, but can still be rather annoying.

I can understand someone with blob squads being worried about the possibility of loosing the stubborn chap, but I cant see many people going out of their way to include snipers in their lists as the odds are not that great.

I havent seen the really obvious solution mentioned yet- Put the important individual out of LOS! Its one little infantry model that needs to be hidden from the enemy snipers, put it behind a tank, terrain or a chap with a big flag!

Ailaros, this isn't an argument worth having, some people insist on seeing everything in terms of points expended vs points eliminated, they're never going to grasp something as "subtle" as "it's a bonus ability on a cheap scoring unit with a 2+ or 3+ cover save", let alone that the tactical utility of a unit is not necessarily dependent on its ability to remove X number of enemy models per turn. If it's not a Deep Striking Melta-suicide squad or some form of ludicrous WA-Shenanigans Deathstar unit, some players just aren't interested.

Yodhrin wrote: "it's a bonus ability on a cheap scoring unit with a 2+ or 3+ cover save".

Well, people keep bringing up Rangers. They are not cheap, they are incredibly overpriced.

DarknessEternal wrote:

Yodhrin wrote: "it's a bonus ability on a cheap scoring unit with a 2+ or 3+ cover save".

Well, people keep bringing up Rangers. They are not cheap, they are incredibly overpriced.

Well so is basically everything in the Eldar book...we have a 4th edition book after all.

Eldar - still will take Rangers/Pathfinders in a foot list as our other troop options are limited in their roles. Also may see some other armies take them as Allies if they want a Farseer.

Guard - unless its a foot list or there are spare points somewhere, sniper rifles are not going to be seen.

SM - if the person is taking scouts they may as well have sniper rifles, bolters really aren't an advantage for them.

I am with Alairos on this one. in larger games i usually run 1-2 power blobs(in 3000+ games). but with snipers being able to snipe out my comissars with at least a 1/4 chance (or a 41% as alairos said earlier for some units) it just isnt worth the risk to have a non stubborn guard unit that size and i dont see myself running using them any more...

DarknessEternal wrote:

Yodhrin wrote: "it's a bonus ability on a cheap scoring unit with a 2+ or 3+ cover save".

Well, people keep bringing up Rangers. They are not cheap, they are incredibly overpriced.

Overpriced? Maybe. Incredibly overpriced? No. You have to compare them to their own codex, not any Other one. In codex eldar they are a
Solid choice for any army that jetbikes don't fit in. Plain and simple. Who the frick cares how many points they get back?!?! 5/6 of the game types are about scoring with objectives. Not by killing points. They aren't call of duty snipers here, killing everyone in the game with no scopes and crap. It seems people have a skewed idea of what a sniper does. He doesn't get a boatload of kills. He waits a week just for that one kill kill that can change the whole battle. Yea that's all a fluff standpoint. But we already beat the dead horse with the gameplay standpoint.

juraigamer wrote:Snipers were always good at killing MCs and elite infantry. They just now have a single extra rule that if you're lucky you can attempt to place wounds.

No they werent. They were at best meh vs MCs and bad vs elite infantry. The new rule hasnt change that in any extreme way. They are (with a few exceptions) still bad.

tedurur wrote:

juraigamer wrote:Snipers were always good at killing MCs and elite infantry. They just now have a single extra rule that if you're lucky you can attempt to place wounds.

No they werent. They were at best meh vs MCs and bad vs elite infantry. The new rule hasnt change that in any extreme way. They are (with a few exceptions) still bad.

They still have rending, and wound on 4's, though. Against a wraithlord, a team of 10 ratlings only needs a turn or two to drop it.

And I've seen pathfinders DESTROY tac terminators before. They easily throw down 2 rending hits a turn, which is only being stopped by a 5++ (in addition to other damage).

Ailaros wrote:

MrMoustaffa wrote:Sorry ailaros, normally I agree with what you post and enjoy reading your insights, but I think we're just going to have to agree to disagree on this one.

What I'm trying to say mostly isn't that snipers can't screw over Blob guard (they can and do) but that against many armies they wont be able to do much.

We're actually in agreement here:

Ailaros wrote:It's not that snipers have become lords of war, it's that snipers (along with new barrage and other things), has basically invalidated an entire class of strategy. If you weren't using that strategy, you won't notice much of a difference. If you were, then it makes a huge difference.

However, I would also note that snipers aren't only useful against armies that were relying on hidden upgrades. Certainly it's not going to be a game breaker like it would be against certain lists, but sniper rifles are still slightly useful outside of this role, such as in taking down monstrous creatures. I mean, they still have rending, and pinning, which still isn't completely worthless.

Plus, even if you weren't RELYING on hidden upgrades, it's still going to be pretty annoying when they're picked out of squads. It still might very well have a strategic impact. Even against armies that it's not specialized against, the quality of a sniper rifle has still risen from really awful to roughly that of a flamer - not great perhaps, but can still be rather annoying.

Ah ok, didn't notice that bit at the end. Was late when I was typing that. In that case I think I'd agree. My bad!

Yes, snipers have gotten better. Tremendously? No, not at all. Viable? Maybe. I know as an IG and an Ork player, they'll not be showing up in my lists much, but I can see people like necrons and eldar being happy with them. It's just with the armies I play, why bother dropping a 150pts on a sniper squad to try and pick a guy out, when I can just buy a LRBT or a Dakkajet and kill the whole unit outright? And while I don't have much experience with other armies, I think most of them would agree.

They will be VERY annoying to run into once people start running them more and get used to using them, but I'll counter them the way I've been countering every trick people come up, field more bodies than the opponent has bullets. Yes, you got that plasma guy, good job, now what are you going to do about the other 20 plasma guns and all the autcannons in my list? And of course, we'll always be safe if we have the guys in a transport, or hide that one important guy behind a building. Like everything else, there will be ways to deal with them. I'm really not looking foward to the first time I run into a true sniper spam list though...

Also, slightly off topic, but is it me or ishaving HWS's being 2 wounds to a base now actually helpful? Now, we've got an extra wound insurance on that autocannon or lascannon from getting sniped! I never thought I'd see the day where I was GLAD they're a 2 wound 60mm base

tl;dr all of it, so:

Eldar Rangers get AP1 on a to-hit roll of 6, along with picking the target.
Eldar Pathfinders get AP1, but on rolls of 5 or 6.
All other rolls of 3+ get a chance to roll Rending on a 6, too.

So, the odds of a Pathfinder killing someone is pretty good. Both rangers and pathfinders get AP1 on anyone they want to take out, 1/6 of the time.
There's still the 4+ to wound, but 1/3 of those that get through rend.

Snipers got a lot better against certain armies. As a deamon army, I could lose a 42 point chaos icon (25+the model), and have half my army scatter and miss-hap as a result.
If I was a blob player I'd be outright screwed.
Against most opponents it's fairly balanced though. Taking out a sargent or a special weapon is irritating but not game braking to most marine armies, but it can and does destroy blobs.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

DarknessEternal wrote:

Yodhrin wrote: "it's a bonus ability on a cheap scoring unit with a 2+ or 3+ cover save".

Well, people keep bringing up Rangers. They are not cheap, they are incredibly overpriced.

Rangers are amazing, especially pathfinders. Anyone who's ever played an infantry army knows this.

MrMoustaffa wrote: why bother dropping a 150pts on a sniper squad to try and pick a guy out, when I can just buy a LRBT

They do very different things.

I mean, if you took a 21-man blob with melta and ran it at the LRBT, there's a pretty decent chance that the blob would survive long enough to get at least one round of melta fire in. That same blob, against 3 units of 5 ratlings would see its commissar killed likely turn 1, and be completely defanged by turn 3. Likely the squad would fail at least one pinning check and never actually close range.

I agree that, in general principle, it's better to just take more firepower and kill things outright, but 6th ed snipers are a new exception to that rule.

Ailaros wrote:

MrMoustaffa wrote: why bother dropping a 150pts on a sniper squad to try and pick a guy out, when I can just buy a LRBT

They do very different things.

I mean, if you took a 21-man blob with melta and ran it at the LRBT, there's a pretty decent chance that the blob would survive long enough to get at least one round of melta fire in. That same blob, against 3 units of 5 ratlings would see its commissar killed likely turn 1, and be completely defanged by turn 3. Likely the squad would fail at least one pinning check and never actually close range.

I agree that, in general principle, it's better to just take more firepower and kill things outright, but 6th ed snipers are a new exception to that rule.

I really don't imagine we'll see all 3 Elite slots filled with Ratlings in a list. Can it happen? Sure. Will it? Doubful.

Only reason i take snipers is the heavy bolter that gives me a poison 2 blast weapon.

Ailaros wrote:That same blob, against 3 units of 5 ratlings would see its commissar killed likely turn 1, and be completely defanged by turn 3

Assuming the all of the Ratlings get to shoot (which is a big assumption with their Ld 5), they've still only got roughly a 2/3 chance of killing one Commissar. Most of them will be dead or falling back before they get to shoot again.

Which brings us around to the start again. Snipers excel at picking one guy and killing him dead (the good ones at least) but I still see the amount of effort spent on killing such few models as a very big gamble for what you get out of it. Just because you sniped the commissar from a blob, doesn't make it worthless. Yes, it can't charge into close combat anymore, but it can still unload a redonculous amount of shots with FRFSRF into your infantry, or go to ground on an objective with incoming and get a crazy save. And this is counting against a list that is considered one of the easiest to hard counter with snipers.

Other armies will not be relying on such a fragile model as their main plan, and this is where issues will pop up. Even when you have a shot at sniping a sarge or something, the rest of the unit is still alive, and odds are, very angry that their sarge took an early dirt nap. While it may not be 100% as scary as it once was, a clever opponent will find uses for it. Not to mention the next fact. If an opponent realizes that snipers are one of his worst weaknesses, what do you think he's going to prioritize on killing first? Your snipers may very well only get one or 2 rounds of decent shooting out tops, before they're focused down. And most snipers are not exactly tough to begin with. You'll either have to take the fire on the chin and hope they live, or go to ground and give up shooting, where they may as well be dead unless they're objective sitters.

Which is why I make my whole "I'd rather buy a LRBT/ Dakkajet/ Battlewagon/ Basilisk" arguement. Yes, the snipers very well may be able to gimp certain lists, but these lists will anticipate this, and have ways to work around it if they're smart. Not to mention there will be lists where they just can't do much damage, or what damage they can do will be fairly pointless. For example, if you ran into a true leafblower guard list, what's the point in being able to sniper special weapons, when by the time you've got them out of the chimera, they may as well be dead already? Whereas, if you'd bought any of the other things I've mentioned, they'd still be plenty useful in almost any situation.

Which is probably a good thing. Snipers are meant to be a specialist, surgical tool. They're meant to put down a specific threat quickly and at range. They're relatively good at this now. They're still a terrible choice to bring in truly high numbers, since they gimp your power to kill other targets if you spend too many points on them, but at least they're not almost completely useless like they were last edition.

I also dont think it helps that many snipers are bs3
I know drones and scouts are. That only gives you a very small chance to hit them.

alarmingrick wrote:I really don't imagine we'll see all 3 Elite slots filled with Ratlings in a list. Can it happen? Sure. Will it? Doubful.

Nor am I saying that we're going to see players abandon their russes to have points for ratlings.

My whole point here is that snipers do something real now, and that real something doesn't have a whole lot else that can also do it, so there isn't much competition. Not every body needs snipers, and not every army will be crippled by them, just like not every army needs meltaguns, and not all armies are crippled by you bringing melta spam.

I know that the internet isn't good with nuiance, but there really is a middle ground between "the suxorz" and "spam me harder!"

DarknessEternal wrote: they've still only got roughly a 2/3 chance of killing one Commissar.

A 2/3ds chance of having something insanely bad happen to the blob (namely, it ceasing to be a blob). You're failing to grasp how disruptive this is. Even if it were a 1/3 chance, or even a 1/6th chance, it's still an uncomfortably large chance given just how awful it is when the odds DO give you the result.

MrMoustaffa wrote:Just because you sniped the commissar from a blob, doesn't make it worthless. Yes, the snipers very well may be able to gimp certain lists, but these lists will anticipate this, and have ways to work around it if they're smart.

No, that's really the problem here. The people who aren't getting sniper rifles in the new 6th ed places that they're useful are failing to grasp just how useful they've become in their new niche roles.

If I was running a slugga mob, and I had to stop them from charging in because I lost my ability to hurt vehicles, the strategic significance of this is enormous. If I was running a power blob list, and I had to take my close combat monster and shirk around shooting LASGUNS and hoping for a few failed armor saves, this is a very big change to how I was relying on playing them in order to pull my strategy off.

It also seems that said people are ignoring, or underestimating their lesser uses as well. If you had a terminator squad that was sitting in the back plinking with a CML, and the CML was picked out of the squad, that doesn't make the termies literally useless, but it still does seriously disrupt their ability to preform the role they were taken for. Movement is only SO fast in this game, so switching from a long-range vehicle killer to a mid-range infantry-killer isn't going to happen instantly. You're losing killing power by losing the upgrade, losing more killing power by the time taken in transition, and you still have lost the primary purpose of the squad. This really isn't nothing.

And now it seems that there is a claim that smart players can just easily avoid them? Unless you're keeping your models out of LOS of snipers, I fail to see how a player can play much smarter to avoid getting killed by snipers. Once again, there's the strategic impact. If I'm hiding out of LOS from snipers, what of my opponent's stuff is now out of LOS of the guys I'm hiding, and can now act unencumbered by my forces?

If all this really is too nuanced, then sure, don't bother taking sniper rifles. You probably won't miss them. Try to keep an open mind for people who see their new worthiness.

As for odds of sniping a marine:
1/6 are snipe hits, 2/6 wound normally, 1/3 fail armor.
1/6 are snipe hits, 1/6 rend, all fail armor.
4.6 percent. HALF are avoided by look out.
2.3 percent chance to wound a marine in the open on a snipe.
Or to be more accurate, 1 out of 21.6 shots.

My blob has worked great so far.
Want to kill the stubborn guy?
I upgraded from the 35 point commissar to the 80 point commissar lord with stealth.
The blob is a bit more expenisve, but I've got improved cover saves, and 3 wounds and 5+ invul on the guy who matters.
1/6 snipe, 1/2 wound, 4/6 fail invul, 1/2 get look out.
Even 36 shots is 1 snipe round. You need 3 wounds, or ~108 shots.
With stealth, if I'm in cover, your effectiveness does drop off.

-Matt

HawaiiMatt wrote:

I upgraded from the 35 point commissar to the 80 point commissar lord with stealth.
The blob is a bit more expenisve, but I've got improved cover saves, and 3 wounds and 5+ invul on the guy who matters.
1/6 snipe, 1/2 wound, 4/6 fail invul, 1/2 get look out.

-Matt

The FAQ changed the LC's cloak back to just him getting the bonus. Also his LoS is 2+ for an IC.

As for the subject of Snipers - i'm much more afraid of a unit of Paladins shooting at the blob...

I would bring the occasional camo scout squad to hold the back objective and 6th has given a boost with precision. Is everyone gonna field one? No, but if you did you may have seen the 'Ooh piece of candy' when you do snipe that Inferno Pistol BA or PK nob from the squad. I know one player that'll keep bringing Tellion because of how much damage he does disrupting his opponents strategy. Deal with it or not, he'll keep shooting either way.

Ailaros wrote:If all this really is too nuanced, then sure, don't bother taking sniper rifles. You probably won't miss them. Try to keep an open mind for people who see their new worthiness.

From your point of view I can see why sniper might be very worthy of fear. However I cannot see why from most players point of view they would be worth including in a list.

I dont think the situations in which they could be really effective will be common enough for them to be included in most lists. I think you should carry on with you blobs as is and see how often you come up against snipers and are unable to hide your improtant people.

Also , I may be being silly here, isnt the Commissar only there to give Stubborn? Which is only needed in CC? So if you face a list with snipers, some anti GEQ CC and no places to hide a Commissar you might be in some trouble. Even then I dont think it would be a game changer.

I have recently being making extensive use of Deathmarks and after several games completley given up on precision shots. I land so that the model I want to die is one of the closest few and hope to kill my way to them as presicion shots cannot be relied upon.

So while snipers are scary to you they are not reliable enough to make most lists and you probably wont actually have to worry about them very often.

Results of eldar snipers are in!!!!! They sucked hard lol.

I think they didnt calibrate their scopes before the battle. They couldnt hit for squat. Taking 10 man units of them also seems to be a must. They need the extra staying power. I believe with a little better luck on my part they would have done the job.

I just like how they can "de-claw" some units early in the game (pop a special weapon or two would make me happy).

Texanity wrote:I just like how they can "de-claw" some units early in the game (pop a special weapon or two would make me happy).

Against an some armies, like say anything in power armor, losing a special weapon in no way stops them from pounding eldar into the ground like tent pegs.

DarknessEternal wrote:Against an some armies, like say anything in power armor, losing a special weapon in no way stops them from pounding eldar into the ground like tent pegs.

lol

Anyways, I'd also note that sniper rifles are the bane of those old, hated wound-wrapping abuser units. If you're concerned about those couple of TWC with the thunder hammers, you can pick those out and leave your tanks vs. lightning claws, or the reverse if you're fielding a lot of infantry.

They are a real counter to mix-n-match units.

DarknessEternal wrote:

Texanity wrote:I just like how they can "de-claw" some units early in the game (pop a special weapon or two would make me happy).

Against an some armies, like say anything in power armor, losing a special weapon in no way stops them from pounding eldar into the ground like tent pegs.

But, the argument can be made that if you snipe out that melta or plasma, your tank might live longer, or it might give that war walker one more round of shooting before getting pumelled. Of course, its going to take very careful maneuvering and positioning to pull it off.

Who knows, snipers might become one of the main ways to tell how skilled a player is this edition. A noobie just firing away from a random spot he picked wont accomplish much, but for that vet who sets up good fields of fire, opens up key transports, and sets up the "perfect shot" for his snipers, they could be brutal. At this point, all we can do is play more games and see for ourselves if all that hype is grounded in reality, or unbased panic.

Pathfinders and scouts are scoring units. They are not going to put out epic damage, but they do have a good range on their guns to they can contribute from a safe distance while holding an objective. Also if the objective is placed in good cover it's very difficult to remove them without flamers or charging into cc.

They will do a wound or 2 on a regular basis, which is enough to cause a pinning check. While it's never a good idea to count on a pin when it happens it's a big windfall. The same goes for when a heavy or special weapon is picked off.

Snipers are still great against mc and quad guns. T7 quad guns are becoming very popular, and snipers are an inexpensive way to wreck them with a scoring unit. Range isn't a good defense against snipers because they can almost always infiltrate within 30" of a quad gun.

schadenfreude wrote:Pathfinders and scouts are scoring units. They are not going to put out epic damage, but they do have a good range on their guns to they can contribute from a safe distance while holding an objective. Also if the objective is placed in good cover it's very difficult to remove them without flamers or charging into cc.

They will do a wound or 2 on a regular basis, which is enough to cause a pinning check. While it's never a good idea to count on a pin when it happens it's a big windfall. The same goes for when a heavy or special weapon is picked off.

Snipers are still great against mc and quad guns. T7 quad guns are becoming very popular, and snipers are an inexpensive way to wreck them with a scoring unit. Range isn't a good defense against snipers because they can almost always infiltrate within 30" of a quad gun.

This is something I hadn't even thought about. Being able to snipe that quadgun could be a huge boon in the upcoming world of aegishammer 40k

schadenfreude wrote:Snipers are still great against mc and quad guns. T7 quad guns are becoming very popular, and snipers are an inexpensive way to wreck them with a scoring unit. Range isn't a good defense against snipers because they can almost always infiltrate within 30" of a quad gun.

Oh snap... Good catch.

So... To summarize this and to go along with my gut instinct.

It seems that snipers are now a valid choice in the game and seems justifiable to most units points costs (with some question marks over maybe the necron ones being too awesome?)

As such, they are a valid, but not automatic, choice to fit in ones army.

Yay, GW did something right?

To address the OP's original theme, I don't think snipers are a big doom and gloom game changer by any means. Many posts before mine have confirmed that they can be situationally useful, and many have also accurately pointed out that even if they succeed to kill a valuable target, that might not be enough to completely throw off an opponents game plan. I'm not sure who was touting them as a be all end all unit, but that seems a bit sensationalistic.

Now, advanced sniping tactics aside, I think what makes snipers so awesome now is in reference mainly to Scouts and Pathfinders. For an army like mine, I take scouts as scoring troops who can hold an objective and maybe do some damage; they are cheap enough that I don't have to care if they sit back and do nothing, so long as they get me that objective point. Since I can give them snipers for free, that cheap scoring unit now has 36" of range, and add whichever heavy weapon you like and it's still cheaper than 5 Tac marines.

With the new sniping rules, I can take this dirt cheap babysitting squad and actually stand a chance to throw a real wrench in my opponents game plan. More often than not, they will probably just kill a few models worth of enemies and maybe earn back their points; but the real kicker is that for absolutely no additional cost, there is a chance now that I can get a bit lucky and take out something important.

This is a unit that just needs to hold an objective and not die, and I would call it a mission success, that is a pretty low bar. Now, as I mentioned before, for absolutely zero extra points, this unit can actually contribute an important kill to the war effort. You can't really defend against them because it would be a waste of shots to focus any real firepower on a scout unit, and you'd be benefiting your enemy by shooting at his cheapest and least vital unit, while the rest of his force runs around doing what they want. It's inadvisable to focus resources on killing them, and now with the new rules it is inadvisable to just let them go unchecked. It forces a lose-lose decision on your foe.

In my mind, that makes Scout snipers awesome.

Keeping in mind that many SM armies will have a unit of Scouts, and many Eldar are going to have Pathfinders, and that Ratlings just look plain awesome so I don't know why an IG army wouldn't take them for that reason alone; you are going to have a pretty decent number of opponents who are rolling with a cheap and unassuming unit that probably won't scare you too much, but just might snipe a BB gun shot to your coinpurse; and when that happens, believe me, it's going to sting....and you are going to cringe at the memory.

Well in defence of IG, ratlings are terrible compared to most other stuff we can bring. T2, LD 6 alone makes them very risky to bring at 10pts a model in any strength that they can do damage. Almost everything wounds them on 2's, and losing just one or 2 means they're pretty much running for the hills.

Plus, they compete with stormtroopers and marbo, which are both awesome units in their own right. Add in the fact that a 100pts can go a LONG way in a guard army, and you'll see why nobody takes them. Plus, unlike your scouts or the eldar pathfinders, ratlings don't score, so we still have to leave a troop unit behind to grab the objective anyways. Overall, it'd almost be a better idea to just buy some snipers for a PCS or a SWS squad instead. Still gets those 6's like the ratlings, and won't die just because someone looked at them funny

I haven't seen it mentioned but;

1) Scout Snipers will take a heavy weapon (ML or 2+ Poisened h.bolter) in 5man squads - beyond possible rends and pinning, they simply cause wounds to targets per turn. This is good!

2) Being able to field that rocket launcher, I feel, has become golden.

3) They also have bolt pistols, krak grenades and S/T4 w/ the possibility of S5.

4) Krak Grenades. Fantastic! Meltabomb, even better!

/Utility

MrMoustaffa wrote:Well in defence of IG, ratlings are terrible compared to most other stuff we can bring. T2, LD 6 alone makes them very risky to bring at 10pts a model in any strength that they can do damage. Almost everything wounds them on 2's, and losing just one or 2 means they're pretty much running for the hills.

Wow, I've never looked at an IG codex and did not realize how terrible ratlings are stats wise. In that case it would be a hard sell to justify taking them when it comes down to it. For me, as SM, I pretty much get something for nothing because I'd be taking scouts either way. If you could get those sniper rifles for free/cheap on a unit that would be hanging around your back lines anyway (maybe that's the PCS or SWS you mentioned) then maybe it would be a wildcard worth taking.

I agree with Ailaros, the snipers aren't going to win you the game, the idea of 40 snipers is frankly stupid.
However, a small amount 5-10 sitting on an objective at the the back (that would otherwise have to be occupied by another troop unit; who might not be able to do anything) can upset an opponent's plan, killing that multimelta just as it got into range of your expensive tank, sniping that power klaw,and if not they are still killing things. They may not make there points but objectives and units protected aren't measured in points.

UltraTacSgt wrote:

MrMoustaffa wrote:Well in defence of IG, ratlings are terrible compared to most other stuff we can bring. T2, LD 6 alone makes them very risky to bring at 10pts a model in any strength that they can do damage. Almost everything wounds them on 2's, and losing just one or 2 means they're pretty much running for the hills.

Wow, I've never looked at an IG codex and did not realize how terrible ratlings are stats wise. In that case it would be a hard sell to justify taking them when it comes down to it. For me, as SM, I pretty much get something for nothing because I'd be taking scouts either way. If you could get those sniper rifles for free/cheap on a unit that would be hanging around your back lines anyway (maybe that's the PCS or SWS you mentioned) then maybe it would be a wildcard worth taking.

120 points is a Vet squad with 3x snipers, a mortar and camo cloaks. That's not a bad vehicle for sniper rifles with decent range that can sit in cover on an objective and try and pin an enemy unit each turn. It's probably one of the most expensive ways to get 3 BS4 sniper rifles in the game though.

A SWS with sniper rifles is pretty cheap but you miss out on all the bonuses other races snipers get like camo cloaks and infiltration.

If I'm honest IG don't have snipers that can match up to a Scout squad or Pathfinders. 5 Ratlings are cheap for a reason, SWS or PCS are just regular guard with a longer lasgun and vets cost too much for too few rifles.

How about pinning? Do snipers still cause pinning. I always liked that. Never could pull it off but the potential was fun.

Yep, they still cause pinning checks.

I think we've pretty much nailed down the new "role" of snipers, at least for now. Scout squads and pathfinders are going to love it, as it gives them something to do now as opposed to just sitting on the objective all game. For other armies, like IG, that can't bring them on a worthwhile platform (pts wise. Even 50pts can buy you a helluva lot of things in our codex) they will view them as trash, something that may get lucky once in a blue moon, but not enough for them to care.

For the armies that do take them, they'll sit there and harass critical units until the law of averages finally takes them out. They'll hope for a golden BB a turn, but they know that if they even get one or 2 it'll be worth it.

And necrons will have deepstriking rapid firing sniper rifles killing everything, which makes total sense

I see this as a very nice touch on snipers, but at the same time they probably won't be a game changer.
Eldar pathfinders I think will be usefull, but I don't expect them to pick off the mega armour ork ether.
I wouldn't rely on them sarge poping for tactics ether.

One squad is a nice touch, but barrage weapons can basically snipe and have a better chance of landing where you want, 2/3 over 1/6. Before scatter.

Just loose out on the eldar snipers AP1 rule, but multiple blasts is always fun.


I expect in general they'll cause more panic than anything else. On the off chance they do pop a character, even if you wouldn't put cash on them being super usefull on that objective.


Necron snipers seem horrific. All round, just brutal. I think there way more than a 95 point rangers squad though

The snipers in IG actually synergize REALLY well with the sanctioned psykers. Remember that power that lowers a units leadership? It almost an instant pin if you can pul of 1 unsaved wound(wich isnt hard if you take about 10 snipers). Pinning an expensive squad is awesome.

Kingkaneda wrote:The snipers in IG actually synergize REALLY well with the sanctioned psykers. Remember that power that lowers a units leadership? It almost an instant pin if you can pul of 1 unsaved wound(wich isnt hard if you take about 10 snipers). Pinning an expensive squad is awesome.

So you'd be spending about 165 points on the psykers (10 man squad + chimera) and then another 50-70 on a sniper squad just to cause a pin? That's an expensive trick that might not even work thanks to Deny the Witch. Plus, the really expensive squads are usually fearless.

For that price you can easily get a few artillery pieces that will cause pinning tests much more reliably and actually kill stuff.

Kingkaneda wrote:The snipers in IG actually synergize REALLY well with the sanctioned psykers. Remember that power that lowers a units leadership? It almost an instant pin if you can pul of 1 unsaved wound(wich isnt hard if you take about 10 snipers). Pinning an expensive squad is awesome.

You could say the same about a heavy weapon team with mortars, or a basilisk.

-Matt

HawaiiMatt wrote:

Kingkaneda wrote:The snipers in IG actually synergize REALLY well with the sanctioned psykers. Remember that power that lowers a units leadership? It almost an instant pin if you can pul of 1 unsaved wound(wich isnt hard if you take about 10 snipers). Pinning an expensive squad is awesome.

You could say the same about a heavy weapon team with mortars, or a basilisk.

-Matt

Except mortars are more accurate at picking out models than snipers, are easier to protect, and useful against a wider array of targets.

Last weekend there was a doubles tournament at my local GW and there was a guy playing eldar who had Eldrad and a farseer inside a 10 man pathfinder squad on top of a ruin. TEQs were all the rage at this tournament and his one one squad of rangers just made a bloody mess out of termis, sanguinary guard, etc. He was using Guide rather than Prescience, because guide allowed him to reroll to hit in shooting, while prescience only allowed him to reroll MISSED hits.... so any dice that didn't roll a 5 or 6 to get AP1, he picked them up and rolled them again. Combined with Doom and Misfortune...

Once he was out of TEQs to shoot he started picking off special weapons, attack bikes... anything that approached got wraithguard'ed, firedragon'd, and bladestormed. Guy didn't take a single vehicle, he just let his space marine team mate grab all the objectives after the elite stuff had an Altaioc lobotomy.

They came in second with 2 wins and 20 VPs, a necron/space marine team scored just as many wins, but scored 22 VPs total.

DarknessEternal wrote:

HawaiiMatt wrote:

Kingkaneda wrote:The snipers in IG actually synergize REALLY well with the sanctioned psykers. Remember that power that lowers a units leadership? It almost an instant pin if you can pul of 1 unsaved wound(wich isnt hard if you take about 10 snipers). Pinning an expensive squad is awesome.

You could say the same about a heavy weapon team with mortars, or a basilisk.

-Matt

Except mortars are more accurate at picking out models than snipers, are easier to protect, and useful against a wider array of targets.

Welcome to the imperial guard. What's that, you snipe with a rifle? That's silly. We snipe with heavy artillery and mortars

Well personally my sniper scouts havn't shined, but they have actually won one game and tied me another out of my four games of 6th. I only take ten, but so far they've been mighty useful in getting my opponent to maneuver differently as well as getting the occasional precision kill in. Generally I find that I kill about one special weapons person a turn in addition to two to 5 other models depending on if MEQs or GEQs.

They may not have won their points back directly, but they've definately been worth taking so far.

DarknessEternal wrote:

HawaiiMatt wrote:

Kingkaneda wrote:The snipers in IG actually synergize REALLY well with the sanctioned psykers. Remember that power that lowers a units leadership? It almost an instant pin if you can pul of 1 unsaved wound(wich isnt hard if you take about 10 snipers). Pinning an expensive squad is awesome.

You could say the same about a heavy weapon team with mortars, or a basilisk.

-Matt

Except mortars are more accurate at picking out models than snipers, are easier to protect, and useful against a wider array of targets.

Yup.
Really, Ratlings should be troops and score. Then they'd be worth it every time. As an elite choice, they are fun to have, just to have something different, but far from awesome.

-Matt

Falconlance wrote:Last weekend there was a doubles tournament at my local GW and there was a guy playing eldar who had Eldrad and a farseer inside a 10 man pathfinder squad on top of a ruin. TEQs were all the rage at this tournament and his one one squad of rangers just made a bloody mess out of termis, sanguinary guard, etc. He was using Guide rather than Prescience, because guide allowed him to reroll to hit in shooting, while prescience only allowed him to reroll MISSED hits.... so any dice that didn't roll a 5 or 6 to get AP1, he picked them up and rolled them again. Combined with Doom and Misfortune...

Once he was out of TEQs to shoot he started picking off special weapons, attack bikes... anything that approached got wraithguard'ed, firedragon'd, and bladestormed. Guy didn't take a single vehicle, he just let his space marine team mate grab all the objectives after the elite stuff had an Altaioc lobotomy.

They came in second with 2 wins and 20 VPs, a necron/space marine team scored just as many wins, but scored 22 VPs total.

So unless the Eldar rules for Guide got faqqued you got totally screwed, as Guide only allows the re-rolls of failed to hit rolls.

I'd note that the guard does have alternatives to ratlings. A sniper SWS costs only 45 points, and comes with 3 sniper rifles and 3 extra bulletcatchers. And it scores.

Also, you can take a PCS and load it with 4 snipers for only 50 points, and you get to issue orders, and it scores. Or you can take a CCS and pack it with 4 snipers for 70 points that gain BS4, and actually good orders (always being in range of BiD or FoMT is a nice thing).

Heck, even vets will do the job. 85 points for 3 BS4 sniper rifles, sure, but you also get 7 other guys in the squad, which makes it a fair bit more survivable than their points in scout snipers (or even perhaps rangers), and they also score.

There are lots of ways for guardsmen to throw around a few scoring sniper rifles for cheap. They're not as good per point as ratlings as far as causing sniper damage, but they have other qualities.

SWS are 35 base, so it's 50 points for the sniper squad. I keep thinking about it, but if you're looking for a cheap, low profile scoring unit, a Mortar Team is only 10 points more, and can stay entirely out of line of sight. Still, the sniper squads are just cool enough to put in anyway, in my book.

The PCS with 4 snipers (and a bolter for 5 Precision shots for the squad) is something I've used. I like it for low cost and good range on a vulnerable scoring unit, I like it because it's cool, and because it looks cool. Not a high price to pay for a little functional style.

MrMoustaffa wrote:So as an ork and a guard player, I've been noticing a lot of worry over snipers and their ability to "pick out every useful unit we have", and I want to know where this fear is coming from? We're talking about a weapon that only gets to allocate on a 6 to hit, always wounds on a +4 (in most circumstances at least, ignoring guys like vindicaires), has to get through armor unless they get a 6, and then has to hope the opponent fails their look out sir!, or that its a special weapon or something that doesn't get the roll. With all those "ifs" I hardly see this as the bringer of gloom and doom that some people are worried about. Even a guard sergeant has a fairly reliable chance to survive it, and guys like nobs or marine sergeants would have to get very unlucky to get killed by a single shot.

Yes, an army like guard or space marines spamming snipers could be a problem, but if your opponent is obsessed with picking out models to the point where they're going to focus only on that and ignore their ability to deal with heavy armor, horde infantry, and fliers, then congratulations, I'll let them pick off a few special weapons and sarges a turn, while my leman russes go play.

Is there something I'm missing to this? Because honestly, I really don't see the big deal with these things. I'll probably field an IG sniper rifle spam army sometime for kicks and giggles, but even there, I really don't see it being an uber death machine at all.

So what are your thoughts guys. Sniper rifles almost as useless as before, or are they now the most rediculous weapon upgrade guard can buy for 5pts?

While one sniper is going to have issues killing a unit, SM can get them in squads of 10 for about 150 pts if i recall correctly. This and they are pinning weapons, so it can stop that nice unit from moving or shooting.
While not as scary as people make them seem, they excel at slowing infantry down.

Used my eldar rangers again today. This time I had a group of 10 of them guarding my rear objective. They had no support from psychic powers the whole game. It ended up being night fighting the whole game so that helped and hurt them. The had 2+ cover in the ruins most of the time. Shooting wise, they were nothing special for most turns. They did pin a group of space marines making that group notbe able to charge the unit they were planning next turn. That was nice. Most other turns though they didnt do too much.They picked out one melta gun I believe. The best turn they had was during an overwatch where they rolled three 6's and effectivly put the unit charging them out of charge range. That part was HUGE. So overall they didnt shine. But they did their job. I will be taking a 10 man unit of rangers again.

They add a new element of fun to the game I find. I tend to just put a pair of rifles on my standard bearing HWS babysitting CCS. 10 points isn't much of a buy in really for the chance to bust a valuable special weapon or standard bearer. Someone pointed out it can synergise well with a few of the CCS orders too. I wouldn't invest too heavily in snipers or rely on them by any means, but since I've started running the pair I find them hard to leave out of the list.

I wouldn't say it was that scary to face them but it all depends on what kind of army you run at the end of the day. The new direction the armies seem to be going in is having a distinct squad leader character who has the potential to drop the squads leadership by a point and take a fair bit of wargear with him if someone happens to shoot him through the grape.

Wolf priests give the unit they join preferred enemy right? If he does you could put him in a squad of 10 wolf scouts with sniper rifles. hitting on 3s with re-rolls, wounding on 4s with re-rolls could cause damage.

I've found that Eldar Rangers/Pathfinders are rather good. Any rolls to hit of a 6/5+ respectively ends up ignoring armour saves and autowounding. It means that they have a rather easy time either eating enemy SW/HW as well as sargeants and the like.