Who among the remaining loyalist Primarchs would be best suited to be Lord Commander of the Imperium should they return? This does not include Guilliman, since he already gave up that position, and since we're not exactly sure he's even alive - his fluff states he's frozen in stasis at the moment of death. I vote Lion, because for all intents and purposes he's King Arthur - the King/Primarch who sleeps until Britain/the Imperium need him once again.
EDIT: No more Creed or other gak...we stick to Primarchs from now on.
That being said, Lion'el Johnson was nearly given the title of warmaster when the Emprah was still leading the crusade, however Horus won the job due to being the favorite of the Emprah.
So, more likely than not, Johnson would be the best candidate.
Testify wrote:Why should it be a primarch? I'm not sure how the Imperial Guard or mechanicus would feel about that
Because only a Primarch has the qualifications for the job. In any case, why not? Its not like the High Lords of Terra would be disbanded. None of the Primarchs (well, maybe Russ) would be stupid enough to start a civil war by disbanding the council and declaring themselves Imperial Regent, and certainly none of the High Lords would be stupid enough to pass up the chance for some real leadership when the Imperium is beset by so many crises.
Corax. Vulkan seems like he is that humble guy who doesn't want to be in a position of power. And so would pass it up.
Russ is too passionate.
Johnson is way too distrustful and brooding.
Khan would be my second pick, but he would strive for power through force and care more for martial prowess and brutality than intelligence and peace.
Corax is left. He's super smart, and seems pretty Objective in his decision making, caring about what is best overall. Utilitarian some could argue but that is what the imperium needs.
Testify wrote:Why should it be a primarch? I'm not sure how the Imperial Guard or mechanicus would feel about that
Because only a Primarch has the qualifications for the job. In any case, why not? Its not like the High Lords of Terra would be disbanded. None of the Primarchs (well, maybe Russ) would be stupid enough to start a civil war by disbanding the council and declaring themselves Imperial Regent, and certainly none of the High Lords would be stupid enough to pass up the chance for some real leadership when the Imperium is beset by so many crises.
So they're going to do the job that the current counsel does, and the counsel won't be annoyed or anything?
You can't replace a counsel of men with a single guy, especially when that counsel are in charge of the army, the mechanicum, etc.
Either he has power, in which case the counsel are pissed off, or he's a figurehead and therefore wasted in the roll when he should be on the battlefield.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Gharron wrote:http://www.dakkadakka.com/gallery/8804-.html
'nuff said
yeah yeah I know he's dead but I can dream..
Was he dropped on his face as a child or something?
Formosa wrote:Gulliman.... you know the fella who had his own mini imperium..thats you know... better than the regular one
NO. I already gave the reason in the OP.
Testify wrote:
Tadashi wrote:
Testify wrote:Why should it be a primarch? I'm not sure how the Imperial Guard or mechanicus would feel about that
Because only a Primarch has the qualifications for the job. In any case, why not? Its not like the High Lords of Terra would be disbanded. None of the Primarchs (well, maybe Russ) would be stupid enough to start a civil war by disbanding the council and declaring themselves Imperial Regent, and certainly none of the High Lords would be stupid enough to pass up the chance for some real leadership when the Imperium is beset by so many crises.
So they're going to do the job that the current counsel does, and the counsel won't be annoyed or anything? You can't replace a counsel of men with a single guy, especially when that counsel are in charge of the army, the mechanicum, etc. Either he has power, in which case the counsel are pissed off, or he's a figurehead and therefore wasted in the roll when he should be on the battlefield.
I don't recall Guilliman being the sole High Lord of Terra during his time as Lord Commander. IIRC, the only man who had the gall to do that was Goge Vandire...in any case, the Lord Commander would be head of the council (note the spelling) and first among equals. That last part is something I have never really gotten my mind around, but I believe its the best description for the position.
Tadashi wrote:
I don't recall Guilliman being the sole High Lord of Terra during his time as Lord Commander. IIRC, the only man who had the gall to do that was Goge Vandire...in any case, the Lord Commander would be head of the council (note the spelling) and first among equals. That last part is something I have never really gotten my mind around, but I believe its the best description for the position.
All animals are equal, but some animals are more equal than others.
My first choice is Horus, then Sanguinius, then Magnus, and then Lion...but the first three are either dead or "unavailable", so...
Oh wait, wasn't there a reason the Imperium did away with giving so much power to individual people, even moreso Space Marines?
The High Lords didn't have a problem with Guilliman as the previous Lord Commander of the Imperium. In any case, so long as the Lord Commander respects the positions/opinions/common interests of the other council members, I'm sure the High Lords would accept it.
Tadashi wrote:
I don't recall Guilliman being the sole High Lord of Terra during his time as Lord Commander. IIRC, the only man who had the gall to do that was Goge Vandire...in any case, the Lord Commander would be head of the council (note the spelling) and first among equals. That last part is something I have never really gotten my mind around, but I believe its the best description for the position.
All animals are equal, but some animals are more equal than others.
Thanks for the direct explanation...that sure cleared up the meaning of first among equals as opposed to the circular meanings I get from dictionaries.
Tadashi wrote:
I don't recall Guilliman being the sole High Lord of Terra during his time as Lord Commander. IIRC, the only man who had the gall to do that was Goge Vandire...in any case, the Lord Commander would be head of the council (note the spelling) and first among equals. That last part is something I have never really gotten my mind around, but I believe its the best description for the position.
All animals are equal, but some animals are more equal than others.
Thanks for the direct explanation...that sure cleared up the meaning of first among equals as opposed to the circular meanings I get from dictionaries.
Life is going to cause serious problems for you if you insist on using a dictionary to discover the meaning of language.
Since subtly has failed I'll explain directly - a 12 foot tall immortal super-human probably would find it difficult to regard himself as equal to a load of crusty old men. He's not the emperor, he's the head of his own specific chapter - the head of say 1,000 space marines, somehow above the head of hundreds of trillions of imperial guardsmen.
Tadashi wrote: I don't recall Guilliman being the sole High Lord of Terra during his time as Lord Commander. IIRC, the only man who had the gall to do that was Goge Vandire...in any case, the Lord Commander would be head of the council (note the spelling) and first among equals. That last part is something I have never really gotten my mind around, but I believe its the best description for the position.
All animals are equal, but some animals are more equal than others.
Thanks for the direct explanation...that sure cleared up the meaning of first among equals as opposed to the circular meanings I get from dictionaries.
Life is going to cause serious problems for you if you insist on using a dictionary to discover the meaning of language.
Since subtly has failed I'll explain directly - a 12 foot tall immortal super-human probably would find it difficult to regard himself as equal to a load of crusty old men. He's not the emperor, he's the head of his own specific chapter - the head of say 1,000 space marines, somehow above the head of hundreds of trillions of imperial guardsmen.
Its not about the numbers or influence of the other council members, although I would argue that the Lord Commander (in my opinion, Lion) would directly command all the Chapters descended from his gene-seed. The other Chapters would have loose loyalty to him as their 'uncle'. As for the other Imperial organizations...
1) The Administratum oversees the day-to-day affairs of the Imperium, so they wouldn't really have anything to lose by supporting the Lord Commander as they're too important to be set aside in any case. 2) The Ecclesiarchy sees the loyalist Primarchs as Imperial Saints...the Imperium led by a Saint, and one of those who fought alongside the Emperor and remained loyal in the dark years of the Horus Heresy, wouldn't that be perfect propaganda for the Inquisition and the Ecclesiarchy? 3) The Adeptus Mechanicus would see an advocate/ally in any arguments with the Ecclesiarchy, so long as they can keep common interests between council members/Imperial organizations secure.
The others...well, this is just my opinion, but I think that once the 'Big Four' (the Administratum, the Inquisition, the Ecclesiarchy, the Adeptus Mechanicus) agree they'll probably fall in line.
Inquisitor Jex wrote:Creed, he'll just somehow on that list and win
If you're just gonna troll, go away. If any non-Primarch deserves to gain the position of Lord Commander of the Imperium, it would be Lord Solar Macharius aka Alexander the Great.
Oh, if you are thinking across all history ok, I was working on that fact that it is NOW, not a thousand years ago when Macharius was, y'know, alive.....
Creed, being alive, can fill the spot more 'today' so to speak.
Lucien-Alexis wrote:Lord Solar Macharius isn't on there! :O
Nor is Warmaster Slaydo
They're both dead, unfortunately, but I believe Macharius is the only non-Primarch worthy to become Lord Commander of the Imperium.
DarknessEternal wrote:Guilliman is more alive than Johnson. You know, since he's actually alive but in stasis, and Johnson is actually dead but in some mystery state.
No, Guilliman is dead - frozen in stasis at the moment of death. Lion is alive, just in a state of hyper-hibernation, similar to Astartes when they activate their sus-an membrane.
Inquisitor Jex wrote:
Creed, being alive, can fill the spot more 'today' so to speak.
No, thank you. Creed doesn't come close to Macharius. And I'd pick Ciaphas Cain over Creed any day, thank you very much.
Testify wrote:Why should it be a primarch? I'm not sure how the Imperial Guard or mechanicus would feel about that
Because only a Primarch has the qualifications for the job.
Based on what? I see relatively little that would make them qualified to be leaders of a galaxy wide empire. They commanded invasion forces and super soldiers, I'm not seeing where they'd be qualified for political leadership of a massive empire comprised of uncountable factions and a military that bears little resemblance to what they fought with.
Ignatius wrote:Corax. Vulkan seems like he is that humble guy who doesn't want to be in a position of power. And so would pass it up.
Russ is too passionate.
Johnson is way too distrustful and brooding.
Khan would be my second pick, but he would strive for power through force and care more for martial prowess and brutality than intelligence and peace.
Corax is left. He's super smart, and seems pretty Objective in his decision making, caring about what is best overall. Utilitarian some could argue but that is what the imperium needs.
This is EXACTLY how feel about it. I'd love Vulkan to take the job, but I think Corax would be best option.
EDIT - and I just realized I voted for Vulkan on accident. Derp.
Testify wrote:Why should it be a primarch? I'm not sure how the Imperial Guard or mechanicus would feel about that
Because only a Primarch has the qualifications for the job.
Based on what? I see relatively little that would make them qualified to be leaders of a galaxy wide empire. They commanded invasion forces and super soldiers, I'm not seeing where they'd be qualified for political leadership of a massive empire comprised of uncountable factions and a military that bears little resemblance to what they fought with.
I think it's pretty obvious this is another "omg primarchs are awesome" thread. To the extent that mentioning a non-primarch was dismissed as trolling
Tadashi wrote:2) The Ecclesiarchy sees the loyalist Primarchs as Imperial Saints...the Imperium led by a Saint, and one of those who fought alongside the Emperor and remained loyal in the dark years of the Horus Heresy, wouldn't that be perfect propaganda for the Inquisition and the Ecclesiarchy?
Many in the Ecclesiarchy doesn't really like Space Marines and regard them as abhuman heretics, some of them mutants and borderline-traitors. They don't have a problem with the Loyalist Primarchs because they aren't around. Much like they don't have a problem with the Emperor chiefly because He is currently unable to tell them He didn't actually want religious fanatism in his Imperium.
Tadashi wrote:The High Lords didn't have a problem with Guilliman as the previous Lord Commander of the Imperium.
That was a very extraordinary situation, though. (studio) fluff makes it clear time and time again that the Imperium works on the concept of "divided we stand", and this is doubly true for the Astartes who had their Legions sliced in neat little Chapters and command authority over the Guard and the Navy taken away. Look at the seats in the Senatorum Imperialis and you will notice that not a single one is reserved for a Space Marine.
The Lion. Russ is too savage, Khan had the tactical abilities necessary to lead a legion but not the IOM, Vulkan would be good but not as good as el'Johnson, and Corax's obsession with stealth would make him unable to use the Imperial military properly. Of all the loyal primarchs, I'd have voted for Dorn, Sanguinius, or Gulliman, but of those listed, the Lion would be most capable- also, he is the only one listed that we can say is certainly still alive.
Inquisitor Jex wrote:A lucky, cowardly commissar over a front line commander? If you want...
and I'd rather take Creed over a now-dead Lord Solar.
If Creed was so great, Cadia wouldn't have been overrun. I'd bet half a segmentum that if Gaunt/Cain/or any of the BL Guard characters were in charge, Cadia wouldn't have been overrun. AT ALL.
Lynata wrote:That was a very extraordinary situation, though. (studio) fluff makes it clear time and time again that the Imperium works on the concept of "divided we stand", and this is doubly true for the Astartes who had their Legions sliced in neat little Chapters and command authority over the Guard and the Navy taken away. Look at the seats in the Senatorum Imperialis and you will notice that not a single one is reserved for a Space Marine.
A Primarch wouldn't claim the title automatically, but he would exercise command over his first chapter first - in Lion's case, the Dark Angels - but in the long run, his other chapters would gravitate to their gene-father. Given the Astartes' semi-autonomy and a Primarch's abilities, its going to make the council nervous. What better way to ensure their common interests and reign in a Primarch that to give him a spot on the council?
Tadashi wrote:If Creed was so great, Cadia wouldn't have been overrun. I'd bet half a segmentum that if Gaunt/Cain/or any of the BL Guard characters were in charge, Cadia wouldn't have been overrun. AT ALL.
Primarily because most of those characters don't really fit into GW's setting but live in a world of their own, where a number of different rules seem to apply.
Tadashi wrote:A Primarch wouldn't claim the title automatically, but he would exercise command over his first chapter first - in Lion's case, the Dark Angels - but in the long run, his other chapters would gravitate to their gene-father. Given the Astartes' semi-autonomy and a Primarch's abilities, its going to make the council nervous. What better way to ensure their common interests and reign in a Primarch that to give him a spot on the council?
Tadashi wrote:If Creed was so great, Cadia wouldn't have been overrun. I'd bet half a segmentum that if Gaunt/Cain/or any of the BL Guard characters were in charge, Cadia wouldn't have been overrun. AT ALL.
Primarily because most of those characters don't really fit into GW's setting but live in a world of their own, where a number of different rules seem to apply.
And thanks to that, Cadia and the Segmentum have all but fallen.
Tadashi wrote:A Primarch wouldn't claim the title automatically, but he would exercise command over his first chapter first - in Lion's case, the Dark Angels - but in the long run, his other chapters would gravitate to their gene-father. Given the Astartes' semi-autonomy and a Primarch's abilities, its going to make the council nervous. What better way to ensure their common interests and reign in a Primarch that to give him a spot on the council?
Inquisitor Jex wrote:A lucky, cowardly commissar over a front line commander? If you want...
and I'd rather take Creed over a now-dead Lord Solar.
If Creed was so great, Cadia wouldn't have been overrun. I'd bet half a segmentum that if Gaunt/Cain/or any of the BL Guard characters were in charge, Cadia wouldn't have been overrun. AT ALL.
When was Cadia ovverrun? Also, Gaunt and Cain aren't nearly as good as Creed.
Inquisitor Jex wrote:Creed, he'll just somehow on that list and win
Since Creed is hands down the best Military leader that the Imperium has, then I too would back Lord Castellan Ursarkar E. Creed as Lord Commander of the Imperium.
Tadashi wrote:
If Creed was so great, Cadia wouldn't have been overrun. I'd bet half a segmentum that if Gaunt/Cain/or any of the BL Guard characters were in charge, Cadia wouldn't have been overrun. AT ALL.
Cadia is the bastion that holds back the entire fething warp. It had to withstand Chaos Marines, Deamons and uncountable minions. Grants biggest defense was a hive world, that he ended up having to abandon. Cain only had to defend against a lesser lieutenant of Abbaddon. And would have lost if not for the Necrons. Creed had to fight off Failbaddon, the greatest warmaster since horus, And in the end he won. Failbaddon lead yet another failed crusade.
Inquisitor Jex wrote:A lucky, cowardly commissar over a front line commander? If you want...
and I'd rather take Creed over a now-dead Lord Solar.
If Creed was so great, Cadia wouldn't have been overrun. I'd bet half a segmentum that if Gaunt/Cain/or any of the BL Guard characters were in charge, Cadia wouldn't have been overrun. AT ALL.
When was Cadia ovverrun?
The Cadian Gate is breached. All but the smallest continent is under Chaos control. The Imperial Navy may control Cadian airspace, but only a thin corridor links them through the Warp Storms summoned by Erebus to the greater Imperium. Agripinaa, the industrial heartland of the sector is in ruins. Belis Corona is only partly operational. Orks have all but seized the Scarus Sector. If Abaddon launched a new assault now, the only thing that could stop him is to have all nine loyal legions re-assemble. Seeing as the High Lords prefer their games of russian roulette and wine parties instead of getting anything done, that seems unlikely. How the Emperor must weep to see his Imperium in the hands of such incompetent nobles and bureaucrats.
Also, Gaunt and Cain aren't nearly as good as Creed.
No. Gaunt is Gaunt, 'nuff said. Cain is the Emperor's butt monkey of an avatar. In any case, a Guard hero from the BL novels would have done a better job of keeping Cadia secure.
ObliviousBlueCaboose wrote:
Inquisitor Jex wrote:Creed, he'll just somehow on that list and win
Since Creed is hands down the best Military leader that the Imperium has, then I too would back Lord Castellan Ursarkar E. Creed as Lord Commander of the Imperium.
Macharius. Solon. Slaydo. Gaunt. Macaroth. Cain. Yarrick. Schaeffer. All of these guys would do a better job than Creed could ever hope to do.
Tadashi wrote:
If Creed was so great, Cadia wouldn't have been overrun. I'd bet half a segmentum that if Gaunt/Cain/or any of the BL Guard characters were in charge, Cadia wouldn't have been overrun. AT ALL.
Cadia is the bastion that holds back the entire fething warp. It had to withstand Chaos Marines, Deamons and uncountable minions. Grants biggest defense was a hive world, that he ended up having to abandon. Cain only had to defend against a lesser lieutenant of Abbaddon. And would have lost if not for the Necrons. Creed had to fight off Failbaddon, the greatest warmaster since horus, And in the end he won. Failbaddon lead yet another failed crusade.
No, Cadia is still in Imperial Hands under seige but still in Imperial hands. As is the Agripinaa Sector, the Navy has complete and total Space Superiority. The Cadian Gate is held and the Chaos forces can't get reinforcements. Its all over except the clean up.
Tadashi wrote:Macharius [Dead]. Solon [[Dead] Slaydo [Dead] Gaunt [Largest defense was a hive city, not an entire world.] Macaroth [Maybe] . Cain Commisar [cant hold command, and only example is a world he only held by luck, which granted is his USR]. Yarrick [He did save armegeddon]. Schaeffer [Special Forces guy who leads small units, probually not good at the big picture]. All of these guys would do a better job than Creed could ever hope to do.
Yeah, Creed had to deal with the internal betrayal, which left the Entire cadian upper leadership destroyed. He is the most successful Cadian Commander of all time, the most successful of the BEST OF THE BEST the Imperium has. He commands any Imperial force in the Cadia sector, and has Abaddon forces trapped on Cadia under constant bombardment. HE is the Best General the Imperium has. He deserves the Lord Command-ship.
ObliviousBlueCaboose wrote:No, Cadia is still in Imperial Hands under seige but still in Imperial hands. As is the Agripinaa Sector, the Navy has complete and total Space Superiority. The Cadian Gate is held and the Chaos forces can't get reinforcements. Its all over except the clean up.
Agripinaa may be in Imperial control, but victory there is empty - the sector is in ruins. Cadia's supply lines are stretched thin, no thanks to Erebus frakking around with the Warp. An assault now would crush what's left of the Cadian Gate like tinfoil.
Tadashi wrote: If Abaddon launched a new assault now, the only thing that could stop him is to have all nine loyal legions re-assemble.
Where does it say that?
Seeing as the High Lords prefer their games of russian roulette and wine parties instead of getting anything done
O_o
that seems unlikely. How the Emperor must weep to see his Imperium in the hands of such incompetent nobles and bureaucrats.
That's kinda the point of the 40k universe. It's dystopian in the extreme, and life sucks and then you die, the end.
In any case, a Guard hero from the BL novels would have done a better job of keeping Cadia secure.
Yes...because one world can keep the massed forces of a nether realm of insanity, where half the forces of the Imperium fled and now emerge with daemonic enhancement, from overrunning it. Totally. Not hard. Yeah...
Macharius. Solon. Slaydo. Gaunt. Macaroth. Cain. Yarrick. Schaeffer. All of these guys would do a better job than Creed could ever hope to do.
Half of those guys aren't army commanders, assuming they would do a better job is silly. Macharius is a good counter but long dead. Solon and Slaydo...? Really? You're just arguing just to argue at that point.
Tadashi wrote:
If Creed was so great, Cadia wouldn't have been overrun.
See above. One world isn't going to stopped that massed forces of Chaos, if you're expecting it to, you're being silly.
I'd bet half a segmentum that if Gaunt/Cain/or any of the BL Guard characters were in charge, Cadia wouldn't have been overrun. AT ALL.
again, arguing just to argue. And yet, Abaddon's advance would require all 9 original Legions to stop, but Creed is so incompetent that regimental level officers with no higher command experience would totally stop it...
seriously...
CADIA. IS. OVERRUN.
Yet not lost. The forces of Chaos are in the ascendant on the ground, not in space, and the situation has been left intentionally in flux, and the results are in large part due to a player-drive campaign from almost a decade ago.
In any case, a Guard hero from the BL novels would have done a better job of keeping Cadia secure.
Yes...because one world can keep the massed forces of a nether realm of insanity, where half the forces of the Imperium fled and now emerge with daemonic enhancement, from overrunning it. Totally. Not hard. Yeah...
Well, it IS Black Library. You know what kind of stories sometimes emerge from there.
Vaktathi wrote:again, arguing just to argue. And yet, Abaddon's advance would require all 9 original Legions to stop, but Creed is so incompetent that regimental level officers with no higher command experience would totally stop it...
And should Cadia finally fall, how do you expect to stop them as they spread out to surround Terra as they close in for the kill? Is there any choke point left en route to Terra?
CADIA. IS. OVERRUN.
Yet not lost. The forces of Chaos are in the ascendant on the ground, not in space, and the situation has been left intentionally in flux, and the results are in large part due to a player-drive campaign from almost a decade ago.
And until we get new fluff/campaigns for otherwise, Cadia remains overrun.
Vaktathi wrote:again, arguing just to argue. And yet, Abaddon's advance would require all 9 original Legions to stop, but Creed is so incompetent that regimental level officers with no higher command experience would totally stop it...
And should Cadia finally fall, how do you expect to stop them as they spread out to surround Terra as they close in for the kill? Is there any choke point left en route to Terra?
CADIA. IS. OVERRUN.
Yet not lost. The forces of Chaos are in the ascendant on the ground, not in space, and the situation has been left intentionally in flux, and the results are in large part due to a player-drive campaign from almost a decade ago.
And until we get new fluff/campaigns for otherwise, Cadia remains overrun.
Two things. 1. Cadia isn't overrun, its under siege, the Cadians are still in control of part of Cadia. The part controlled by Chaos, is under heavy Naval Bombardment. It can't be resupplied, or reinforced. The Navy is holding. 2. A Black Crusade is the best that choas can throw at the IoM, and with this one blunted it will be centuries before the next one. On Average most likely 769 years. (10000/13 = 769.023)
In fact now that you made me argue this out, Creed has better credentials then any of the ones you listed in your poll.
You keep saying it would take the all the loyal space marines to stop them, when in fact all thats needed is the staple of Imperial defense, the Imperial Guard and the Imperial Navy. Since the Navy already has control of the Cadian Gate Region the (14th Black Crusade?) would have to fight out of the area, then invade other areas. The Marines would help, but even united (which would never happen) they would still need the Guard and the Navy.
ObliviousBlueCaboose wrote: 1. Cadia isn't overrun, its under siege, the Cadians are still in control of part of Cadia. The part controlled by Chaos, is under heavy Naval Bombardment. It can't be resupplied, or reinforced. The Navy is holding.
That still leaves their supply lines through the Warp Storms a nightmarish weak point. And Agripinaa remains in ruins. Belis Corona is infested with Tyranids and only partly operational. The Green Kroosade has all but takes Scarus.
In fact now that you made me argue this out, Creed has better credentials then any of the ones you listed in your poll.
Macharius conquered a thousand and more worlds, the greatest Imperial conquests since the Great Crusade. Slaydo and Macaroth (and Gaunt should have) commanded the Sabbat Worlds Crusade - an endeavor yet to be equaled or surpassed. Yarrick held Armageddon together against the biggest Ork Waaagh!!! since the Ullanor Crusade.
ObliviousBlueCaboose wrote: 1. Cadia isn't overrun, its under siege, the Cadians are still in control of part of Cadia. The part controlled by Chaos, is under heavy Naval Bombardment. It can't be resupplied, or reinforced. The Navy is holding.
That still leaves their supply lines through the Warp Storms a nightmarish weak point. And Agripinaa remains in ruins. Belis Corona is infested with Tyranids and only partly operational. The Green Kroosade has all but takes Scarus.
In fact now that you made me argue this out, Creed has better credentials then any of the ones you listed in your poll.
Macharius conquered a thousand and more worlds, the greatest Imperial conquests since the Great Crusade. Slaydo and Macaroth (and Gaunt should have) commanded the Sabbat Worlds Crusade - an endeavor yet to be equaled or surpassed. Yarrick held Armageddon together against the biggest Ork Waaagh!!! since the Ullanor Crusade.
So, are we allowing Dead guys to be in this poll? Because if we are then the next Imperial Commander should be the God-Emperor of Mankind. [/thread]
ObliviousBlueCaboose wrote: So, are we allowing Dead guys to be in this poll? Because if we are then the next Imperial Commander should be the God-Emperor of Mankind. [/thread]
That's stupid. The Emperor's already the Emperor. And if that were the case, then I vote Sanguinius.
ObliviousBlueCaboose wrote:
So, are we allowing Dead guys to be in this poll? Because if we are then the next Imperial Commander should be the God-Emperor of Mankind. [/thread]
That's stupid. The Emperor's already the Emperor. And if that were the case, then I vote Sanguinius.
Whoa buddy, your the one who's bringing dead guys into the mix, with Slaydo, and the Lord Solar. We can have it where its only current Imperial personal with the addedPrimarchs, or we can just be absurd. Your choice.
ObliviousBlueCaboose wrote: So, are we allowing Dead guys to be in this poll? Because if we are then the next Imperial Commander should be the God-Emperor of Mankind. [/thread]
That's stupid. The Emperor's already the Emperor. And if that were the case, then I vote Sanguinius.
Whoa buddy, your the one who's bringing dead guys into the mix, with Slaydo, and the Lord Solar. We can have it where its only current Imperial personal with the addedPrimarchs, or we can just be absurd. Your choice.
Then Lion. No way I'm voting for Creed. Apart from Macharius, no non-Primarch is entitled to be first among equals within the council.
What have the Primarchs done to deserve it, aside from Guilliman. I say no Primarch is entitled to be First among Equals seeing as a FULL HALF of the Primarchs were traitors. The TRUE First Among Equals should be drawn from Somewhere that provides the Majority of the Imperiums Defense. Either from the Imperial Guard or from the Navy.
ObliviousBlueCaboose wrote:What have the Primarchs done to deserve it, aside from Guilliman. I say no Primarch is entitled to be First among Equals seeing as a FULL HALF of the Primarchs were traitors. The TRUE First Among Equals should be drawn from Somewhere that provides the Majority of the Imperiums Defense. Either from the Imperial Guard or from the Navy.
Simply because a Primarch is a son of the Emperor. And the Lord Commander Militant and a Grand Admiral already have seats on the council, so the latter point is moot.
Tadashi wrote:Simply because a Primarch is a son of the Emperor. And the Lord Commander Militant and a Grand Admiral already have seats on the council, so the latter point is moot.
Sons of the Emperor were made to lead his crusade fleets and space marine legions to reconquer the galaxy. Not to lead the Imperium in its aftermath.
That's the Emperor's job, and even then he delegated matters to a council back on Terra, and to Malcador.
ObliviousBlueCaboose wrote:What have the Primarchs done to deserve it, aside from Guilliman. I say no Primarch is entitled to be First among Equals seeing as a FULL HALF of the Primarchs were traitors. The TRUE First Among Equals should be drawn from Somewhere that provides the Majority of the Imperiums Defense. Either from the Imperial Guard or from the Navy.
Simply because a Primarch is a son of the Emperor. And the Lord Commander Militant and a Grand Admiral already have seats on the council, so the latter point is moot.
If thats the case there you go, the Imperial Commander should be either the Lord Commander Militant or the Grand Admiral.
I'd love Russ to. But hes to passionate for battle and I feel he'd end up screwing up. So for this time Its the Lion with the Wolf as "secretary of defense" we can say.
Ronin wrote: That's the Emperor's job, and even then he delegated matters to a council back on Terra, and to Malcador.
Not exactly...the original War Council had all the Primarchs as members. Then the Council of Terra was established with none of them having a seat...the resentment caused by this was one of many reasons the Horus Heresy broke out. In fact, none of the military had a seat on the council, and IIRC, it wasn't the Emperor who formed the Council of Terra, but Malcador. So we can blame the resentment that helped kill the Imperium's future (which he ultimately did) to Malcador.
ObliviousBlueCaboose wrote:Since the Navy already has control of the Cadian Gate Region the (14th Black Crusade?) would have to fight out of the area, then invade other areas.
At least until Erebus fraks around with the Warp again and cuts the corridor off once and for all. This would trap Quarren and Creed at Cadia with no chance of victory, seeing as no reinforcements or supplies will survive. Seeing as this is 40k, and everything is doomed to die in the end, this is going to be the most likely scenario as opposed to a Primarch's return.
EDIT: I've gone over King Arthur's legend (since Lion IS effectively King Arthur), and I've deduced that the Imperium is not yet at its darkest hour. Not even close - the Emperor still lives (if you call that being alive), and the Imperium is still strong (but waning) and united. The Primarchs will return only when all hope is lost, probably the same time the Khornate Knights use that Terminus Decree of theirs.
Whoa... A lot has happened since I looked at this earlier and I wish I could have been here for the Creed arguement.
Tadashi, if you seriously think gaunt is better than Creed you need to go through the fluff again. You're way off. Creed is and will remain one of the greatest tactical geniuses the Imperium has ever seen. Is Macharius better? Maybe. Maybe not. He led an offensive crusade mostly against other humans.
Creed leads a hopeless defense of a doomed world from daemons, bio engineered super humans further empowered through gods, and a myriad of other strange and powerful enemies. They are two separate ideas and you can't compare one to the other accurately.
But creed is the best candidate since his equal in Macharius a thousand years ago.
Tadashi wrote:[
And should Cadia finally fall, how do you expect to stop them as they spread out to surround Terra as they close in for the kill? Is there any choke point left en route to Terra?
There are numerous ways to stop a foe besides trapping them in a choke point.
Besides, when you actually look at the GW's stated strength of the Space Marines, and their stated strength of the Imperial Guard, you'll realize the full might of even 9 Space Marine Legions is about equal to the IG's hourly recruitment rate at best. There are 1 million loyalist space marines, in the IG codex it outright states there are *Billions* of IG regiments. Taking the plural *billions* to mean merely 2, its lowest possible meaning, and using say, the Cadian 8th as an average regiment size (some much larger, some smaller) of 10,000 strong, that means we've got 20,000,000,000,000 (twenty trillion) Guardsmen under arms, or about 20,000,000 (twenty million) Guardsmen per Space Marine. This hasn't even started on the Imperial Navy yet. Now, most SM fluff typically points to SM's being worth say, 10 to 12 guardsmen, sometimes more, but the general quote from Rogal Dorn "Give me 100 Space Marines, or failing that, give me 1,000 other men" works for that comparison. Using that, it means the entirety of the loyalist astartes is worth, hrm, 0.00005% of the Imperial Guard's fighting strength. Even if we multiply that 10,000 fold, say a Space Marine is worth the ludicrious sum of 100,000 guardsmen each, then the entirety of the Adeptus Astartes matches about one half of one percent of the military might of the Imperial Guard, and that's with multiplying their worth by an astronomically ridiculous number, and still, not counting the Imperial Navy and using the lowest possible number of regiments to match GW's statements.
So, you see really, the Space Marines really don't matter as much as they're made out to...and why Chaos Marines typically comprise only a small fraction of Warmaster Abaddon's forces.
And until we get new fluff/campaigns for otherwise, Cadia remains overrun
Again, that doesn't mean it is fallen. It is in limbo, meaning its fate is yet to be determined, though with the IN in the ascendant in orbit, that's probably a good indicator of where things are going.
Tadashi wrote:[
And should Cadia finally fall, how do you expect to stop them as they spread out to surround Terra as they close in for the kill? Is there any choke point left en route to Terra?
There are numerous ways to stop a foe besides trapping them in a choke point.
Besides, when you actually look at the GW's stated strength of the Space Marines, and their stated strength of the Imperial Guard, you'll realize the full might of even 9 Space Marine Legions is about equal to the IG's hourly recruitment rate at best. There are 1 million loyalist space marines, in the IG codex it outright states there are *Billions* of IG regiments. Taking the plural *billions* to mean merely 2, its lowest possible meaning, and using say, the Cadian 8th as an average regiment size (some much larger, some smaller) of 10,000 strong, that means we've got 20,000,000,000,000 (twenty trillion) Guardsmen under arms, or about 20,000,000 (twenty million) Guardsmen per Space Marine. This hasn't even started on the Imperial Navy yet. Now, most SM fluff typically points to SM's being worth say, 10 to 12 guardsmen, sometimes more, but the general quote from Rogal Dorn "Give me 100 Space Marines, or failing that, give me 1,000 other men" works for that comparison. Using that, it means the entirety of the loyalist astartes is worth, hrm, 0.00005% of the Imperial Guard's fighting strength. Even if we multiply that 10,000 fold, say a Space Marine is worth the ludicrious sum of 100,000 guardsmen each, then the entirety of the Adeptus Astartes matches about one half of one percent of the military might of the Imperial Guard, and that's with multiplying their worth by an astronomically ridiculous number, and still, not counting the Imperial Navy and using the lowest possible number of regiments to match GW's statements.
So, you see really, the Space Marines really don't matter as much as they're made out to...and why Chaos Marines typically comprise only a small fraction of Warmaster Abaddon's forces.
And until we get new fluff/campaigns for otherwise, Cadia remains overrun
Again, that doesn't mean it is fallen. It is in limbo, meaning its fate is yet to be determined, though with the IN in the ascendant in orbit, that's probably a good indicator of where things are going.
I've always had this view. Marines don't make as big a difference as Marine fans think.
The IoM wouln't survive without the IG and the Fleet, but it could survive with out the Marines. "But OBC what about Deamons, mere humans can't fight deamons" There are numerous fluff tales of standard humans killing even greater deamons. It just takes about 10 times as many humans.
I've always had this view. Marines don't make as big a difference as Marine fans think.
The IoM wouln't survive without the IG and the Fleet, but it could survive with out the Marines. "But OBC what about Deamons, mere humans can't fight deamons" There are numerous fluff tales of standard humans killing even greater deamons. It just takes about 10 times as many humans.
Then I suppose you wouldn't mind if the Space Marines just seceded, since you don't need us after all? I suppose you don't need the Emperor, either, since technically, he's not Human. And you don't need the Mechanicus either, since they're cyborgs as opposed to being Human. You might as well declare every superhuman/cyborg traitor and renegade, seeing as the Imperial Guard and Imperial Navy can handle everything. Who knows, you might actually break the grimdark and win, although I see nothing but death and ruination as the ghosts of dead Astartes and Machine Cult adherents laugh from the Warp at your folly.
Crimson-King2120 wrote:Im gonna say Creed i cant see why a normal human cant be lord commander wasn't Lord Solar a normal human ?
Lord Solar Macharius is a good choice...but he's dead now. In any case, its unlikely a Primarch will return anytime soon. Apart from GW not advancing the plot, the Imperium isn't even close to 'direst need' yet.
I've always had this view. Marines don't make as big a difference as Marine fans think.
The IoM wouln't survive without the IG and the Fleet, but it could survive with out the Marines. "But OBC what about Deamons, mere humans can't fight deamons" There are numerous fluff tales of standard humans killing even greater deamons. It just takes about 10 times as many humans.
Then I suppose you wouldn't mind if the Space Marines just seceded, since you don't need us after all? I suppose you don't need the Emperor, either, since technically, he's not Human. And you don't need the Mechanicus either, since they're cyborgs as opposed to being Human. You might as well declare every superhuman/cyborg traitor and renegade, seeing as the Imperial Guard and Imperial Navy can handle everything. Who knows, you might actually break the grimdark and win, although I see nothing but death and ruination as the ghosts of dead Astartes and Machine Cult adherents laugh from the Warp at your folly.
The Admech isn't a fighting force, its more of a support force with its body guards, and a vital cog in the IoM. As For Space Marines seceding, go right ahead, hold together a pitiful (except the Ultramarines) little death world, with your pitiful like battle barge and slowly fade into oblivion. Unlike, the ADMECH, The Navy, and the Imperial Guard, they are not vital. They are pitifully few (Around a million members... in the WHOLE GALAXY) they're extremely spread out, and not worth the resources spent on them.
I've always had this view. Marines don't make as big a difference as Marine fans think.
The IoM wouln't survive without the IG and the Fleet, but it could survive with out the Marines. "But OBC what about Deamons, mere humans can't fight deamons" There are numerous fluff tales of standard humans killing even greater deamons. It just takes about 10 times as many humans.
Then I suppose you wouldn't mind if the Space Marines just seceded, since you don't need us after all? I suppose you don't need the Emperor, either, since technically, he's not Human. And you don't need the Mechanicus either, since they're cyborgs as opposed to being Human. You might as well declare every superhuman/cyborg traitor and renegade, seeing as the Imperial Guard and Imperial Navy can handle everything. Who knows, you might actually break the grimdark and win, although I see nothing but death and ruination as the ghosts of dead Astartes and Machine Cult adherents laugh from the Warp at your folly.
The Admech isn't a fighting force, its more of a support force with its body guards, and a vital cog in the IoM. As For Space Marines seceding, go right ahead, hold together a pitiful (except the Ultramarines) little death world, with your pitiful like battle barge and slowly fade into oblivion. Unlike, the ADMECH, The Navy, and the Imperial Guard, they are not vital. They are pitifully few (Around a million members... in the WHOLE GALAXY) they're extremely spread out, and not worth the resources spent on them.
Sure. We'll come back in a few centuries...I'm sure we'd have a great auction selling off what's left of the Imperium.
I've always had this view. Marines don't make as big a difference as Marine fans think.
The IoM wouln't survive without the IG and the Fleet, but it could survive with out the Marines. "But OBC what about Deamons, mere humans can't fight deamons" There are numerous fluff tales of standard humans killing even greater deamons. It just takes about 10 times as many humans.
Then I suppose you wouldn't mind if the Space Marines just seceded, since you don't need us after all? I suppose you don't need the Emperor, either, since technically, he's not Human. And you don't need the Mechanicus either, since they're cyborgs as opposed to being Human. You might as well declare every superhuman/cyborg traitor and renegade, seeing as the Imperial Guard and Imperial Navy can handle everything. Who knows, you might actually break the grimdark and win, although I see nothing but death and ruination as the ghosts of dead Astartes and Machine Cult adherents laugh from the Warp at your folly.
The Admech isn't a fighting force, its more of a support force with its body guards, and a vital cog in the IoM. As For Space Marines seceding, go right ahead, hold together a pitiful (except the Ultramarines) little death world, with your pitiful like battle barge and slowly fade into oblivion. Unlike, the ADMECH, The Navy, and the Imperial Guard, they are not vital. They are pitifully few (Around a million members... in the WHOLE GALAXY) they're extremely spread out, and not worth the resources spent on them.
Sure. We'll come back in a few centuries...I'm sure we'd have a great auction selling off what's left of the Imperium.
Thats what would happen if there was no IG and IN. Do'nt forget it was Space Marines who put the IoM in the bind in the first place, with Horus and his daddy issues. If Big E hadn't put so much into the Primarchs, well it wouldn't be WH40k.
Which as much as I dislike the Marines, they are the poster boys of 40k, and have to the most attention, as un justied as it is.
Still doesn't change that Lord Commander of the Imperium should go to the BEST general the IoM has, Which would be Lord Castellen Creed.
Ronin wrote:
That's the Emperor's job, and even then he delegated matters to a council back on Terra, and to Malcador.
Not exactly...the original War Council had all the Primarchs as members. Then the Council of Terra was established with none of them having a seat...the resentment caused by this was one of many reasons the Horus Heresy broke out. In fact, none of the military had a seat on the council, and IIRC, it wasn't the Emperor who formed the Council of Terra, but Malcador. So we can blame the resentment that helped kill the Imperium's future (which he ultimately did) to Malcador.
Erm, yeah. That's exactly what my point was, thanks for validating it for me. The Primarchs were in the War Council because the Primarchs were made for war. Not to lead, or succeed the Emperor in his dominion over man, but to serve and protect and conquer.
The actual running and administration would've been left to the Council, and Malcador as Terra's Regent. You know, the Emperor's right-hand man.
If anything, Malcador helped save the Imperium.
Thats why in the Imperial Palace his statue is labled "Savior of the Imperium". Which stands next to the statue of Garro labled "Hero of the Imperium".
I've always had this view. Marines don't make as big a difference as Marine fans think. The IoM wouln't survive without the IG and the Fleet, but it could survive with out the Marines. "But OBC what about Deamons, mere humans can't fight deamons" There are numerous fluff tales of standard humans killing even greater deamons. It just takes about 10 times as many humans.
Then I suppose you wouldn't mind if the Space Marines just seceded, since you don't need us after all? I suppose you don't need the Emperor, either, since technically, he's not Human. And you don't need the Mechanicus either, since they're cyborgs as opposed to being Human. You might as well declare every superhuman/cyborg traitor and renegade, seeing as the Imperial Guard and Imperial Navy can handle everything. Who knows, you might actually break the grimdark and win, although I see nothing but death and ruination as the ghosts of dead Astartes and Machine Cult adherents laugh from the Warp at your folly.
The Admech isn't a fighting force, its more of a support force with its body guards, and a vital cog in the IoM. As For Space Marines seceding, go right ahead, hold together a pitiful (except the Ultramarines) little death world, with your pitiful like battle barge and slowly fade into oblivion. Unlike, the ADMECH, The Navy, and the Imperial Guard, they are not vital. They are pitifully few (Around a million members... in the WHOLE GALAXY) they're extremely spread out, and not worth the resources spent on them.
Sure. We'll come back in a few centuries...I'm sure we'd have a great auction selling off what's left of the Imperium.
Thats what would happen if there was no IG and IN. Do'nt forget it was Space Marines who put the IoM in the bind in the first place, with Horus and his daddy issues. If Big E hadn't put so much into the Primarchs, well it wouldn't be WH40k.
Which as much as I dislike the Marines, they are the poster boys of 40k, and have to the most attention, as un justied as it is.
Still doesn't change that Imperial Commander should go to the BEST general the IoM has, Which would be Lord Castellen Creed.
Nope. Imperial Guard and Navy could never hold Chaos and the Tyranids and everything else on their own.
DeffDred wrote:
If anything, Malcador helped save the Imperium.
You are correct.
Thats why in the Imperial Palace his statue is labled "Savior of the Imperium". Which stands next to the statue of Garro labled "Hero of the Imperium".
Perhaps, but the Imperium has no future. We can thank Malcador for that...had Guilliman taken the throne as opposed to letting the council govern, the Imperium would have been better off.
Tadashi wrote:Nope. Imperial Guard and Navy could never hold Chaos and the Tyranids and everything else on their own.
Except that they have done so, many times, on their own. Remember, its a big galaxy, and the Space Marines cant be everywhere at once.
If the Imperial Guard and Imperial Navy are even half as incompetent as you seem to think they are, then not even all the Space Marines in the galaxy could held hold the Imperium on its own.
Tadashi wrote:
DeffDred wrote:You are correct.
Thats why in the Imperial Palace his statue is labled "Savior of the Imperium". Which stands next to the statue of Garro labled "Hero of the Imperium".
Perhaps, but the Imperium has no future. We can thank Malcador for that...had Guilliman taken the throne as opposed to letting the council govern, the Imperium would have been better off.
The Imperium did have a future. It held for 10,000 (over 9,000!!!) years after Malcador passed and the Emperor was interred into the Golden Throne. As I've said countless times, Primarchs were made for war, not governing an empire. In that respect, Malcador was superior than most of the Primarchs.
Tadashi wrote:Nope. Imperial Guard and Navy could never hold Chaos and the Tyranids and everything else on their own.
Except that they have done so, many times, on their own. Remember, its a big galaxy, and the Space Marines cant be everywhere at once. If the Imperial Guard and Imperial Navy are even half as incompetent as you seem to think they are, then not even all the Space Marines in the galaxy could held hold the Imperium on its own.
Not really. You see, they do fight most of the battles...but for every battle they win, there are battles that they cannot win. That's where the Space Marines come in...without the Astartes, in the long term, the attrition would ultimately sap the Imperium dry.
Ronin wrote: The Imperium did have a future. It held for 10,000 (over 9,000!!!) years after Malcador passed and the Emperor was interred into the Golden Throne. As I've said countless times, Primarchs were made for war, not governing an empire. In that respect, Malcador was superior than most of the Primarchs.
If you've read The Last Remembrancer, you'd know as well as I do that the Imperium has no future in its current state.
I've always had this view. Marines don't make as big a difference as Marine fans think.
The IoM wouln't survive without the IG and the Fleet, but it could survive with out the Marines. "But OBC what about Deamons, mere humans can't fight deamons" There are numerous fluff tales of standard humans killing even greater deamons. It just takes about 10 times as many humans.
Then I suppose you wouldn't mind if the Space Marines just seceded, since you don't need us after all? I suppose you don't need the Emperor, either, since technically, he's not Human. And you don't need the Mechanicus either, since they're cyborgs as opposed to being Human. You might as well declare every superhuman/cyborg traitor and renegade, seeing as the Imperial Guard and Imperial Navy can handle everything. Who knows, you might actually break the grimdark and win, although I see nothing but death and ruination as the ghosts of dead Astartes and Machine Cult adherents laugh from the Warp at your folly.
The Admech isn't a fighting force, its more of a support force with its body guards, and a vital cog in the IoM. As For Space Marines seceding, go right ahead, hold together a pitiful (except the Ultramarines) little death world, with your pitiful like battle barge and slowly fade into oblivion. Unlike, the ADMECH, The Navy, and the Imperial Guard, they are not vital. They are pitifully few (Around a million members... in the WHOLE GALAXY) they're extremely spread out, and not worth the resources spent on them.
Sure. We'll come back in a few centuries...I'm sure we'd have a great auction selling off what's left of the Imperium.
Thats what would happen if there was no IG and IN. Do'nt forget it was Space Marines who put the IoM in the bind in the first place, with Horus and his daddy issues. If Big E hadn't put so much into the Primarchs, well it wouldn't be WH40k.
Which as much as I dislike the Marines, they are the poster boys of 40k, and have to the most attention, as un justied as it is.
Still doesn't change that Imperial Commander should go to the BEST general the IoM has, Which would be Lord Castellen Creed.
Nope. Imperial Guard and Navy could never hold Chaos and the Tyranids and everything else on their own.
Again thats the Space Marines your describing, for the brave men and women of the Imperial Guard do it every single fething day. Who stopped Abbaddon? Admiral Quarren and the Imperial Navy. He is said to have been the only thing standing between survival, and utter defeat for the Imperium in the Battle of Cadia. Him, not Space Marine Chapter Master X. Creed bravely lead the defense against the best the EoT could throw at him, and is still holding. Cadia maybe under siege but as long as mere men take up the call to throw back the evil that is chaos then Cadia will never fail, nor will the IoM.
Throughout the Fluff there is stories of humans winning against the forces that threaten to tear the Imperium apart. Humans make up 99.999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999% of the Defenders of the Imperium. How could a mere 1,000,000 marines hold even a fraction of a fraction's worth of the Imperium Together? They couldn't even complete the Great Crusade without the Imperial Army.
Malcador was the one who held the Golden Throne while Big E killed Horus, with out him Big E would have died via Lexicanum: "At the instant of Malcador's death, the Emperor awoke from his coma - Malcador had saved a last kernel of strength and passed it on to the Emperor so he could give his servants their final orders" So it was Big E that set up the state the IoM was in. Also Guilliman couldn't have ruled in Malcadors stead since he was busy being, well dead. Malcador that is, not Guilliman, he didn't die till a bit later.
Then I suppose you wouldn't mind if the Space Marines just seceded, since you don't need us after all?
Really...they don't, except for contrived plot reasons. That said, for all intents and purposes SM's *are* seceded elements, they contribute no tithes, no resources, no manufacturing capabilities, nobody can tell them what wars to fight or indeed to even fight at all, their participation in the Imperium's wars is purely voluntary really as they are autonomous organizations. They are for all intents and purposes rogue elements, with only their oaths (which they can and do break, remember, at least 50 full chapters have gone rogue since the heresy and innumerable companies/squads/individuals) and the Inquisition there to keep them nominally on the side of the Imperium.
I suppose you don't need the Emperor, either, since technically, he's not Human.
You are now officially going off into la-la land. What does his "technically not being Human" have to do with anything? That wasn't what people were saying. People were arguing the military value of the Astartes as an organization, you've gone off on some totally random contrived tangent here. The point was that normal, non-augmented soldiers can get the job done, autonomous super soldier enclaves are unnecessary.
That, and the Emperor serves a vital purposes, he powers the Astronominican, without which the Imperium would fall in a day.
And you don't need the Mechanicus either, since they're cyborgs as opposed to being Human.
Again, random tangent that has nothing to do with what was being discussed. The state of being "human" or not is irrelevant, it's not what the subject was the military value of certain forces relative to standard Imperial forces.
Let's see what happens when there's no Astartes...let's say there's a campaign in one sector. The Guard and Navy win all but one decisive battle. Then repeat this across the galaxy. Doesn't seem much right? One defeat for every thousand victories. But then repeat this everyday for another millennium. Its just as the Cabal said - the Imperium won't fall in ten thousand years. Maybe even for twenty thousand years. But the decay and attrition will continue, until the enemies of Mankind get what they want. Chaos, Tyranids, and Orks don't follow logic, they'll never run out of daemons/madmen/bio-constructs/warriors to throw against you.
It doesn't matter anyway, whether or not the Astartes fight with alongside the Guard/Navy or not. They might delay the inevitable for thirty? Fifty thousand years? Doesn't matter. A civilization with no future is as good as dead. This is Warhammer 40,000...the Imperium and Mankind are doomed, all that's left is to go out in flames and glory.
I've always had this view. Marines don't make as big a difference as Marine fans think.
The IoM wouln't survive without the IG and the Fleet, but it could survive with out the Marines. "But OBC what about Deamons, mere humans can't fight deamons" There are numerous fluff tales of standard humans killing even greater deamons. It just takes about 10 times as many humans.
Then I suppose you wouldn't mind if the Space Marines just seceded, since you don't need us after all? I suppose you don't need the Emperor, either, since technically, he's not Human. And you don't need the Mechanicus either, since they're cyborgs as opposed to being Human. You might as well declare every superhuman/cyborg traitor and renegade, seeing as the Imperial Guard and Imperial Navy can handle everything. Who knows, you might actually break the grimdark and win, although I see nothing but death and ruination as the ghosts of dead Astartes and Machine Cult adherents laugh from the Warp at your folly.
The Emperor is a husk. He is nothing more than a Skeletal husk sitting on life support. Think of Mr. House in Fallout NV, and you have a pretty close understanding.
Tadashi wrote:Let's see what happens when there's no Astartes...let's say there's a campaign in one sector. The Guard and Navy win all but one decisive battle. Then repeat this across the galaxy. Doesn't seem much right? One defeat for every thousand victories. But then repeat this everyday for another millennium. Its just as the Cabal said - the Imperium won't fall in ten thousand years. Maybe even for twenty thousand years. But the decay and attrition will continue, until the enemies of Mankind get what they want. Chaos, Tyranids, and Orks don't follow logic, they'll never run out of daemons/madmen/bio-constructs/warriors to throw against you.
It doesn't matter anyway, whether or not the Astartes fight with alongside the Guard/Navy or not. They might delay the inevitable for thirty? Fifty thousand years? Doesn't matter. A civilization with no future is as good as dead. This is Warhammer 40,000...the Imperium and Mankind are doomed, all that's left is to go out in flames and glory.
The IG fight campaigns all the time by themselves. Are you serious? We can see from your previous posts that you are a SM fanboy, and you argue as such. Throughout this thread, all I have seen, is stuff that should have IMO in front of it.
I've always had this view. Marines don't make as big a difference as Marine fans think.
The IoM wouln't survive without the IG and the Fleet, but it could survive with out the Marines. "But OBC what about Deamons, mere humans can't fight deamons" There are numerous fluff tales of standard humans killing even greater deamons. It just takes about 10 times as many humans.
Then I suppose you wouldn't mind if the Space Marines just seceded, since you don't need us after all? I suppose you don't need the Emperor, either, since technically, he's not Human. And you don't need the Mechanicus either, since they're cyborgs as opposed to being Human. You might as well declare every superhuman/cyborg traitor and renegade, seeing as the Imperial Guard and Imperial Navy can handle everything. Who knows, you might actually break the grimdark and win, although I see nothing but death and ruination as the ghosts of dead Astartes and Machine Cult adherents laugh from the Warp at your folly.
The Emperor is a husk. He is nothing more than a Skeletal husk sitting on life support. Think of Mr. House in Fallout NV, and you have a pretty close understanding.
Vulkan. He is very humble, but that could prove to be a good leader instead of Lion El, Lion was greedy and scheming. He's my least favorite Primarch. Corax is another good choice
He is very agressive in thinking and gets things done quickly which is good. If Leman Russ was the leader..Everyone would be drunk most likely..
calgar 2.5 wrote:The IG fight campaigns all the time by themselves.
Even better, I recall Codex fluff mentioning how the Imperial Guard has to be sent in to fight those battles the Space Marines cannot handle because they are "too big, the enemy too powerful".
Astartes are a rapid reaction force, and as such they are quite useful for the Imperium. They are not, however, the irreplacable last line of defence that a number of their players and some of the newer fluff, especially certain Black Library novels and FFG's RPGs, present them to be. At least if we carefully analyze what we have been told by studio writers so far.
Since this franchise does not have a true canon, it would not be "wrong" to follow one of the different interpretations, one where the Astartes are more important and respected and holy etc. Anyone doing so just has to keep in mind that this might include a loss of common ground for a discussion like this.
Testify wrote:Why should it be a primarch? I'm not sure how the Imperial Guard or mechanicus would feel about that
IG would probably be happy, since they are already cool with giving regular marines command or at least joint command 99% of the time when the two forces meet, and they are the sons of the Emperor who the mechanicus worships as an agent of the omnisiah.
Honestly I would have to say Johnson, even if you included Guilleman on that list. Guilleman would have made a good statesman, he was good at motivating people, good at organizing his massive legion and drafting the codex astartes, but as a very high level military commander, I would have to give Lion the edge. As for everyone else, they either cannon be trusted to not cause problems (Russ), might not have the sheer determination and ruthlessness needed (Vulkan), or might not be as good a conventional commander as Lion (Corax and Khan). Sure using speed and stealth are good on a relatively low level, but when you are organizing a crusade across systems you can't really enforce a constant doctrine of stealth or speed.
The main problem with Lion is that he might actually be a traitor if the fallen are to be believed (they probably shouldn't), and if the only living loyalist primarch revolted the war would possibly be worse than the Horus Heresy.
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Tadashi wrote:
ObliviousBlueCaboose wrote:
I've always had this view. Marines don't make as big a difference as Marine fans think.
The IoM wouln't survive without the IG and the Fleet, but it could survive with out the Marines. "But OBC what about Deamons, mere humans can't fight deamons" There are numerous fluff tales of standard humans killing even greater deamons. It just takes about 10 times as many humans.
Then I suppose you wouldn't mind if the Space Marines just seceded, since you don't need us after all? I suppose you don't need the Emperor, either, since technically, he's not Human. And you don't need the Mechanicus either, since they're cyborgs as opposed to being Human. You might as well declare every superhuman/cyborg traitor and renegade, seeing as the Imperial Guard and Imperial Navy can handle everything. Who knows, you might actually break the grimdark and win, although I see nothing but death and ruination as the ghosts of dead Astartes and Machine Cult adherents laugh from the Warp at your folly.
The emperor is only needed for warp travel, besides that all he does is sit around eating psykers and keeping daemons in his broken webway from getting out. As for the marines, we are better off with them, but if they did secede they would probably be wiped out long before the rest of the Imperium.
Testify wrote:Why should it be a primarch? I'm not sure how the Imperial Guard or mechanicus would feel about that
IG would probably be happy, since they are already cool with giving regular marines command or at least joint command 99% of the time when the two forces meet, and they are the sons of the Emperor who the mechanicus worships as an agent of the omnisiah.
Honestly I would have to say Johnson, even if you included Guilleman on that list. Guilleman would have made a good statesman, he was good at motivating people, good at organizing his massive legion and drafting the codex astartes, but as a very high level military commander, I would have to give Lion the edge. As for everyone else, they either cannon be trusted to not cause problems (Russ), might not have the sheer determination and ruthlessness needed (Vulkan), or might not be as good a conventional commander as Lion (Corax and Khan). Sure using speed and stealth are good on a relatively low level, but when you are organizing a crusade across systems you can't really enforce a constant doctrine of stealth or speed.
The main problem with Lion is that he might actually be a traitor if the fallen are to be believed (they probably shouldn't), and if the only living loyalist primarch revolted the war would possibly be worse than the Horus Heresy.
My thoughts exactly. The Imperium would win in the end, but any such victory would be so hollow that they would take the alternative and placate the Primarch as opposed to deliberately antagonizing him.
Testify wrote:Why should it be a primarch? I'm not sure how the Imperial Guard or mechanicus would feel about that
IG would probably be happy, since they are already cool with giving regular marines command or at least joint command 99% of the time when the two forces meet, and they are the sons of the Emperor who the mechanicus worships as an agent of the omnisiah.
To be fair, SM's are outside the IG's chain of command, they may cooperate, and in some poor fluff instances the SM's do get command when their authors aren't remembering their codex astartes and Imperial Army breakup fluff, but in general a Space Marine Chapter Master has no more authority over an IG grunt than a civilian does aside from being big and scary looking. They have a "spiritual" authority of sorts, but following the orders of a Chapter Master over your sergeant is going to have the Commissariat putting you against a wall, whatever the consequences may otherwise have been.
Tadashi wrote:
I don't recall Guilliman being the sole High Lord of Terra during his time as Lord Commander. IIRC, the only man who had the gall to do that was Goge Vandire...in any case, the Lord Commander would be head of the council (note the spelling) and first among equals. That last part is something I have never really gotten my mind around, but I believe its the best description for the position.
All animals are equal, but some animals are more equal than others.
Pretty much. The fluff has never been explicit, but the implication has always been that Guilliman was in charge, and the High Lords only really took power when he stepped down.
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Ronin wrote:
Tadashi wrote:
DeffDred wrote:You are correct.
Thats why in the Imperial Palace his statue is labled "Savior of the Imperium". Which stands next to the statue of Garro labled "Hero of the Imperium".
Perhaps, but the Imperium has no future. We can thank Malcador for that...had Guilliman taken the throne as opposed to letting the council govern, the Imperium would have been better off.
The Imperium did have a future. It held for 10,000 (over 9,000!!!) years after Malcador passed and the Emperor was interred into the Golden Throne. As I've said countless times, Primarchs were made for war, not governing an empire. In that respect, Malcador was superior than most of the Primarchs.
The Imperium has been decaying slowly but surely over the last ten thousand years.
And neither Malcador nor Guilliman were around to lead it. Malcador probably was superior to most of the Primarchs. Guilliman was probably the sole exception. I know it's the cool kid thing to do to hate Guilliman, but if anybody was both qualified, and in the position to inherit the Imperium, it was him. He was a son of the Emperor. He was unmatched amongst the primarchs at leading and administrating. Think about it for a second. When the Emperor found the primarchs, most of them were kings, or warlords, or generals. Guilliman was already an emperor himself. The guy built most of the Ultima Segmentum by himself, and left it all with a solid infrastructure and stable governments. He was able to build and sustain a legion that was bigger than several other legions combined.
The Imperium of 30K was held together by force of will and a solid, cohesive idea for the future that was unquestioned. A Primarch such as Guilliman probably could have maintained that cohesion. As soon as the Imperium was handed over to a group of individuals with their own agendas, that was when the Imperium started to slowly crumble. The Imperium of 40K is a shadow of the Imperium of 30K. It's far more feudal than totalitarian. Sure, the High Lord and other Adeptus organizations like to think they are in charge, and all powerful. But their authority really only extends over where they can project power, and maintain peace with oppressive agencies like the Ecclessiarchy and the Arbites, as well as pervasive propaganda. That was true to an extent in 30K, however there (appears to have been at least) was far less division up until the Ruinous Powers were able to subvert the traitor primarchs.
