EXCLUSIVE: Movie massacre suspect sent chilling notebook to psychiatrist before attack
By Jana Winter
Published July 25, 2012
Three days after he allegedly shot up a Colorado movie theater, killing 12 and injuring scores, suspect James Holmes appeared in court, where he seemed disheveled and disoriented.
AURORA, Colo. – James Holmes, the accused gunman in last Friday's midnight movie massacre in Colorado, mailed a notebook "full of details about how he was going to kill people" to a University of Colorado psychiatrist before the attack, but the parcel sat unopened in a mailroom for as long as a week before its discovery Monday, a law enforcement source told FoxNews.com.
Police and FBI agents were called to the University of Colorado Anschutz medical campus in Aurora on Monday morning after the psychiatrist, who is also a professor at the school, reported receiving a package believed to be from the suspect. Although that package turned out to be from someone else and harmless, a search of the Campus Services' mailroom turned up another package sent to the psychiatrist with Holmes’ name in the return address, the source told FoxNews.com.
A second law enforcement source said authorities got a warrant from a county judge and took the package away Monday night. When it was opened, its chilling contents were revealed.
“There were drawings of what he was going to do in it--drawings and illustrations of the massacre."
- Law enorcement source
“Inside the package was a notebook full of details about how he was going to kill people,” the source told FoxNews.com. “There were drawings of what he was going to do in it - drawings and illustrations of the massacre."
Among the images shown in the spiral-bound notebook’s pages were gun-wielding stick figures blowing away other stick figures.
The source said the package had been in the mailroom since July 12, though another source who confirmed the discovery to FoxNews.com could not say if the package arrived prior to Friday's massacre. It was not clear why it had not been delivered to the psychiatrist. The notebook is now in possession of the FBI, sources told FoxNews.com.
Both sources said the intended recipient of Holmes’ notebook was a professor who also treated patients at the psychiatry outpatient facility, located in Building 500, where the first suspicious package was delivered. It could not be verified that the psychiatrist had had previous contact with Holmes, who was a dropout from the school’s neuroscience doctoral program and had studied various mental health issues and ailments as part of his curriculum.
Holmes is accused of killing 12 and injuring 58 at a midnight showing of the Batman movie “The Dark Knight Rises” at the Century 16 Theater in Aurora.
University of Colorado spokeswoman Jacque Montgomery said she was not aware of the contents of the package or who had sent it.
Agent Dave Joly, of the FBI’s Denver Division, declined to comment on the matter, citing a gag order issued Monday by Arapahoe County District Judge William Sylvester. Arapahoe County District Attorney Carol Chambers' office and Aurora police also could not comment due to the gag order.
Police believe the July 20 attack was meticulously planned. Holmes allegedly tossed tear gas canisters into the crowded theater, and then fired his 12-gauge shotgun at the ceiling before turning it on the crowd. As panicked movie watchers raced for the exits, he switched to a .40 Glock pistol and a .223 Smith & Wesson M&P semi-automatic with a high-capacity drum clip, sources told Fox News. The gun jammed, likely preventing far more deaths.
After the gun jammed, Holmes allegedly walked out of the theater through the door he'd entered and was removing his body armor beside his car when he was confronted by the officers who took him down, the source said, adding that the gunman seemed surprised authorities arrived so quickly.
Before mounting the horrific attack, Holmes allegedly booby-trapped his apartment and left music blasting, possibly to create a diversion that would occupy police and rescue personnel several miles away from the theater, the source said.
Fox News has learned that the door was wired with a booby-trap and a backup system that would have triggered an explosive designed to "cut in half" the first person through the door. After that, explosions and flames would have likely consumed the entire building, presumably with the intention of trapping other residents as they slept and forcing a massive response of police and rescue personnel.
Holmes, who made his first court appearance Monday and looked disoriented and disheveled, could face the death penalty.
The source said the package had been in the mailroom since July 12, though another source who confirmed the discovery to FoxNews.com could not say if the package arrived prior to Friday's massacre. It was not clear why it had not been delivered to the psychiatrist. The notebook is now in possession of the FBI, sources told FoxNews.com.
Mail Room for the college. I should have clarified that a bit more on my part.
The source said the package had been in the mailroom since July 12, though another source who confirmed the discovery to FoxNews.com could not say if the package arrived prior to Friday's massacre. It was not clear why it had not been delivered to the psychiatrist. The notebook is now in possession of the FBI, sources told FoxNews.com.
Mail Room for the college. I should have clarified that a bit more on my part.
yea... if the college delivered it to the psychology department on time, maybe they could have called the police, and avoided this whole thing.
The source said the package had been in the mailroom since July 12, though another source who confirmed the discovery to FoxNews.com could not say if the package arrived prior to Friday's massacre. It was not clear why it had not been delivered to the psychiatrist. The notebook is now in possession of the FBI, sources told FoxNews.com.
Mail Room for the college. I should have clarified that a bit more on my part.
So the package was in the mail room for a week and a day beofre the shooting took place. The prof didn't pick it up.
Are you saying that the mail room should have opened it (a crime btw) themselves?
Also (at least for me) in universities you don't get the package delivered to you, you have to go down to the mail room and collect it.
So the package was in the mail room for a week and a day beofre the shooting took place. The prof didn't pick it up.
Are you saying that the mail room should have opened it (a crime btw) themselves?
Also (at least for me) in universities you don't get the package delivered to you, you have to go down to the mail room and collect it.
Stop baiting me Fett. If the mailroom works the same as in the military then wouldn't there be notice of "you got a package for pickup in the mailroom" follow later by "Get your package Now we don't have the space to hold it long" or if not then the psych just got a major mind screw for not staying on top his mail
Also (at least for me) in universities you don't get the package delivered to you, you have to go down to the mail room and collect it.
Did you get a notice from them you have a package?
that notebook shows he was in his right mond when he wrote that all down. it was premeditated and he should be convicted of 12 counts of murder in the 1st degree and potentially the maximum number of occupants in his building and the theatre (could be thousands) for attempted murder in the first degree.
his insanity plea just went out the window.
there is no amount of pain we could inflict enough to give this savage or anyone else like him on earth that they deserve.
this jerkwad shot a 3 month old baby in the face and shot a 7 year old little girl IN THE BACK.
So the package was in the mail room for a week and a day beofre the shooting took place. The prof didn't pick it up.
Are you saying that the mail room should have opened it (a crime btw) themselves?
Also (at least for me) in universities you don't get the package delivered to you, you have to go down to the mail room and collect it.
Stop baiting me Fett. If the mailroom works the same as in the military then wouldn't there be notice of "you got a package for pickup in the mailroom" follow later by "Get your package Now we don't have the space to hold it long" or if not then the psych just got a major mind screw for not staying on top his mail
My humblest apologies
As for the notice there may well have been one
It’s just that at the two university’s I've been at, the mailroom is usually staffed by a couple work-study students trying to work their way though college, so blaming them doesn't seem quite fair.
Jihadin wrote:Did you get a notice from them you have a package?
Yes'm but if I wasn't expecting a package or other important piece of mail I wouldn't check it often.
When I was at university, I got a letter in my mailbox telling me to pick up a package, but I still had to go to the University mailroom to get my mail.
However, professors had their mail or notifications of a package to pick up delivered to their office or the office administrator. Except in the summer. They had to get their own gak in the summer as there were fewer kids working in the school post office, then.
As this is the summer time, this professor could have been on summer holiday. Further, if he wasn't expecting a package or other mail at his office mailbox, it could also be that he was lax in picking up his mail.
Let's not jump on the Professor or mail room too much here until we know more.
Frazzled wrote:I'm definitely not. My focus is on its contents.
Yep. I'm no lawyer, but I have a strong opinion.
As mentioned, wouldn't this make the shooting premeditated and prevent him from using the temporary insanity plea? Of course, that's in addition to his booby-trapping his apartment and planning this thing for months, as the authorities are saying he did.
If he can stand trial then he doesn't have a strong insanity defense. Strategically speaking, his real defense will be the attempt to show that he is not competent to stand trial.
Frazzled wrote:I'm definitely not. My focus is on its contents.
Yep. I'm no lawyer, but I have a strong opinion.
As mentioned, wouldn't this make the shooting premeditated and prevent him from using the temporary insanity plea? Of course, that's in addition to his booby-trapping his apartment and planning this thing for months, as the authorities are saying he did.
You can still be premeditated crazy.
Much depends on the state. Often, you can be found guilty but nuts where you send to a wacko ward forever or further if you're deemed sane you're sent to prison. Others are you're sent to a wacko ward and released if ever not insane. In the real world they rarely get out.
To me its irrelevant. You have to be crazy to do this. You have to be crazy to be a mob hitter or a serial rapist etc. So what? You' still should get the long good bye.
So James Holmes's insanity defense is the proposition that he did not comprehend that murdering someone is wrong at the time he was doing the murdering. It's the defendant's burden to show that -- so good luck with a jury of your peers, Mr. Holmes.
Frazzled wrote:You have to be crazy to do this. You have to be crazy to be a mob hitter or a serial rapist etc.
Agreed on all counts. And I'll add that I think this case shows us that civilization requires a death penalty.
Manchu wrote:So James Holmes's insanity defense is the proposition that he did not comprehend that murdering someone is wrong at the time he was doing the murdering. It's the defendant's burden to show that -- so good luck with a jury of your peers, Mr. Holmes.
Frazzled wrote:You have to be crazy to do this. You have to be crazy to be a mob hitter or a serial rapist etc.
Agreed on all counts. And I'll add that I think this case shows us that civilization requires a death penalty.
my sentiments exactly. people that commit these horrendous crimes are monsters. they aren't people. thus our constitution should not apply to monsters.
Rimmy wrote:this jerkwad shot a 3 month old baby in the face and shot a 7 year old little girl IN THE BACK.
coward.
After hearing about what happened, the first thing that came to mind is why would little kids be in a midnight showing? Especially a batman movie which is guaranteed to have explosions and all sort of loud noises? If I went to a midnight showing of a movie I was super excited to see, I would be rather ticked off to hear children crying and making noise during the movie.
Rimmy wrote:this jerkwad shot a 3 month old baby in the face and shot a 7 year old little girl IN THE BACK.
coward.
After hearing about what happened, the first thing that came to mind is why would little kids be in a midnight showing? Especially a batman movie which is guaranteed to have explosions and all sort of loud noises? If I went to a midnight showing of a movie I was super excited to see, I would be rather ticked off to hear children crying and making noise during the movie.
I kind of see your point, but regardless of the time of the show, or what you percieve children to be like in the movies (because I have small children whom I take to the movies regularly), HE SHOT A CHILD. multiple children actually.
ok as a father of a soon to be 7 year old little girl, I am taking this subject very personal. I don't honestly mean to be rude or indignant to you, but it strikes extremely close to home for me. enough that I am willing to express my open carry rights with my kids. I wonder what a few well armed and trained dads could have done in that situation.
this jerkwad shot a 3 month old baby in the face and shot a 7 year old little girl IN THE BACK.
This doesn't bother me. To me thats causualties. I've been deployed to many times and seen a lot worse. Question is did he take specific aim at them or were they just in his "sight" picture or did he just "pray and spray". I find disturbing though is he still considered a "suspect" or the "accused". Please don't try to get around the language filter. ~Thanks, Manchu did it hands down and should be considered "Deadman walking" becuase the insanity issue is out the window since he planned well in advance on what he was going to do.
No one is saying babies taken to midnight movies should be shot. No one is even saying that their parents should be shot. Or even prevented from getting into movies, for pete's sake. So let's back off the "this is personal" drama. What is being said is that taken infants to theaters is kind of dumb and it's especially dumb to take said infant to a theater in the middle of the night for an extremely loud, violent movie.
Jihadin wrote:
this jerkwad shot a 3 month old baby in the face and shot a 7 year old little girl IN THE BACK.
This doesn't bother me. To me thats causualties. I've been deployed to many times and seen a lot worse.
What this tells me is that being a soldier is bad for you and makes you a bad person.
it bothers the crap out of me. there are no "casualties" in this instance. they are all victims. there was no war in the streets of Aurora. I was in the service as well, so your lack of candor is upsetting. to answer your question, he shot a 3 month old in the face while her mother held her. that sir, is an execution.
regardless of the methods he used, it was done in cold blood to completely innocent people with no religious, morale, or political debate to srin it on. he JUST did it.
Rimmy wrote: there are no "casualties" in this instance. they are all victims. there was no war in the streets of Aurora.
That's well said. A very good reminder of the insanity that plagues the whole culture, perceiving these murder victims like casualties in some war.
don't get me wrong Jihadin might have developed those feelings as a defense mechanism for the military (I work at the VA) and PTSD is a real thing. i'm not trying to excuse the label, I just udnerstand it.
I don't .. or rather won't insomuch as understanding implies acceptance. If your business has the side effect of desensitizing you to the murder of anyone, including and perhaps especially children, then you need to find a new line of work pronto.
Manchu wrote:No one is saying babies taken to midnight movies should be shot. No one is even saying that their parents should be shot. Or even prevented from getting into movies, for pete's sake. So let's back off the "this is personal" drama. What is being said is that taken infants to theaters is kind of dumb and it's especially dumb to take said infant to a theater in the middle of the night for an extremely loud, violent movie.
Jihadin wrote:
this jerkwad shot a 3 month old baby in the face and shot a 7 year old little girl IN THE BACK.
This doesn't bother me. To me thats causualties. I've been deployed to many times and seen a lot worse.
What this tells me is that being a soldier is bad for you and makes you a bad person.
yea that threw me as well. Regardless of the movie type, bringing an infant to a midnight movie is the height of donkey-cave.
Question is did he take specific aim at them or were they just in his "sight" picture or did he just "pray and spray".
Yes a three year old was kill and yes a 7 year old was shot in the back. Yes he committed the killing. Question was how did he percieve them. He take specific aim (throws out the insanity plea), sight picture (vision focus. throws out the insanity plea because he specificaly drew down on a body) pray and spray (possible insanity bit but the weapon jam from a failure to feed and he went to secondary which literally point and shoot). Sorry you all feel that way towards me on how I view killings but Rimmy if you were prior service you would know what I'm refering to when firing a weapon. One "Center mass" and where is a baby typically carried or held.
What this tells me is that being a soldier is bad for you and makes you a bad person.
Nope it means you seen to much and you become "hardened" towards it and accept it as a everyday thing. Did anyone else think about how he went about it? Because thats what going to be one of the things thats going to convict him. How he precieved the victims and how he went about shooting them
None of that matters in relation to an insanity plea actually. You're thinking like a shooter and not on the definition of insanity likely used and the evidence to represent it.
Did the shooter understand his actions (there will be some multipronged test to that) and have the intent to commit those actions? Thats more of what your're looking at.
Frazz did he go in shooting like he was acting out a typical bad guy from a batman movie or did he go in calm, collective, and in control of his mentality. Witnesses account on how he went about it going to tell one side and his lawyer going to try to debunk it with either of those three choices stated above.
Manchu wrote:I don't .. or rather won't insomuch as understanding implies acceptance. If your business has the side effect of desensitizing you to the murder of anyone, including and perhaps especially children, then you need to find a new line of work pronto.
I respectfully disagree. understanding is not acceptance.
Death is a very hard subject to deal with. Military, Police, Firefighters, Paramedics, physicians etc etc, they deal with death day in and day out. desensitizing to it is really the only way of coping with the harsh reality. it doesn't make it acceptable, but I understand it.
Only way I can come close to this as in experience was one of mine almost faced a illegal kill charged. The situation we were in and his perception of the target were a factor into deciding charges were dropped
I'm not troubled by bodies, killing, nor murder. Goes with profession I'm in and I know what I was getting into when I signed on the dotted line when I joined the US Military. Rimmy posted a good reason why. I also know I'm not a "bad person" because of it because I know the difference between "RIGHT AND WRONG" I do know though if here in the states if I was involve in a similiar situation on what happen in that theater and I'm not dead I will grab my medic bag and render assistant and not let the "incident" slow me down nor impede my judgement on who to work on first to save lives. Because I'm USE TOIT. Don't judge me for what I have seen and gotten use to. Judge me on what I do and have done. It doesn't bother me Manchu you consider me a "bad person" because you don't know my world.
Huh. I wonder why he did it. I mean, he had to have some motivation. It sounds like he put a lot of effort into it for it to have been done flippantly.
Jihadin wrote:I'm not troubled by bodies, killing, nor murder.
And then:
Jihadin wrote:I also know I'm not a "bad person" because of it because I know the difference between "RIGHT AND WRONG"
So you know the difference but it doesn't concern you one way or the other?
Jihadin wrote:not let the "incident" slow me down nor impede my judgement
Not what we're talking about. You said you weren't bothered by a three-month-old baby being shot in the face and a seven-year-old girl getting shot in the back because they are "just casualties." Now either this is classic Big Man Talk or you are a bad person.
Jihadin wrote:Don't judge me for what I have seen and gotten use to.
It's nothing personal. If you are "used" to murder such that you're not bothered by the murder of civilian children then something is wrong with you and honestly the last place for you is in the military where that particular insensitivity might cause some major problems.
Jihadin wrote:It doesn't bother me Manchu you consider me a "bad person" because you don't know my world.
"Your world," huh? You living in your own world is exactly what concerns me.
They pulled a computer console out of his apartment, batman poster, and batman mask of some sort. No metion of XBOX360/PS3. Chain of thought be Batman Arkunum Asylum (sp) if he was going fully indepth with it (never played the game. I'm back to everquest) I'm thinking the appeal of being a badguy in a Batman setting actually got to his head (Joker) and wanting to be him. On another thread someone posted a link to third wave. Granted it was a grp of students but a video game can fit right into a influencing mode.
edit
So you know the difference but it doesn't concern you one way or the other?
When an individual kills a human in combat that person is changed. No way around it. When you have to search bodies for intell you don't think of the person on the ground just that someone might have slipped a grenade under the body. And its just a body. When your applying a tramatic wound bandage to a heavy bleeder you don't mind the blood because its your buddy or a another soldier and he/she is depending on you. When you handling the remains of one of your own you think of the good times with the soldier and not dwell on the fact he is dead. 12-15 months tours you get use to it.
It's nothing personal. If you are "used" to murder such that you're not bothered by the murder of civilian children then something is wrong with you and honestly the last place for you is in the military where that particular insensitivity might cause some major problems.
Chalked that one up to landmines, insurgents indiscrimintory fire, or executions. Throw in a child wearing a bombvest to Lets not forget the Taliban or Insurgents use teens as well as shooter.. War is not romantic, chivalries, nor clean
Your world," huh? You living in your own world is exactly what concerns me.
Isn't it already clear? A person not troubled by murder is a bad person.
I would say your definition of "bad person" is extremely narrow.
what about an ER nurse who see's murdered people all the time, or the physician attempting to save them, or the mortician having to prepare them for funeral. clearly, they are equally as desensitized.
would you also consider them bad people?
- or -
is your definition limited to those individuals who take a persons life. to which I say, in Jihadin's line of work, if someone threatens to kill him, is he not justified to defend himself?
Are police officers or soldiers placed in unwanted situations where forced to choose between their lives or the lives of innocent people, and opting to kill a perpotrator, bad people?
think outside your little box dude. the world is a much MUCH larger place, and like it or not, you live in it.
What kind of ER nurse sees people murdered all the time?
Please consider what murder actually means. Murder is the act of taking someone's life with malice aforethought. If someone is not phased by witnessing or hearing about this evil act then there is something wrong with them in the morality department.
Manchu wrote:What kind of ER nurse sees people murdered all the time?
Please consider what murder actually means. Murder is the act of taking someone's life with malice aforethought. If someone is not phased by witnessing or hearing about this evil act then there is something wrong with them in the morality department.
a sad reality. in my local area San Jose Regional Center is the area's current trauma center. any gang related death, shooting, homicide etc, gets processed through those doors. Trauma centers get to be "colorful" places after dark.
when you deal with death CONSTANTLY, the mainds only way to stay sane, is to detach from the situation. its not a matter of morality, its just a matter of keeping sane.
I can't exactly explain it to you bro, its REALLY difficult to describe.
I genuinely hope you don't ever have to be put in that situation.
Again I am definitely not talking about combat effectiveness or anything like it. I'm talking about the situation of a dude posting on the internet nearly a week after the fact that he's not bothered by children getting murdered.
Also occur to anyone that he might have picked the midnight showing to avoid killing kids being kids are in bed at that time usually
Again I am definitely not talking about combat effectiveness or anything like it. I'm talking about the situation of a dude posting on the internet nearly a week after the fact that he's not bothered by children getting murdered.
When you witness a kid being a suicide bomber you come talk to me Manchu. Because I will know whats going through your mind
Now that I might be considered a bad person or a murderer to some lets either get on a new thread about that or leave it alone
Back on topic
First lawsuit being filed
The first lawsuit in connection with the Aurora, Colorado theater shootings in Friday morning will be filed soon. A lawyer for Torrence Brown, Jr., whose friend was killed, reportedly plans to file a lawsuit against the theater, suspect James Holmes’ doctors and Warner Bros., the studio behind The Dark Knight Rises.
TMZ reports that Brown was not physically injured during the rampage. However, he was close friends with Alexander J. Boik, an 18-year-old who was among the 12 people who died. Brown says that because of Boik’s death, he is now suffering from extreme trauma.
He has hired attorney Donald Karpel, who explained the three defendants he named in the lawsuit.
First, Karpel is going after the Century 16 Theater, noting that it was responsible for having an alarm go off when the emergency door is opened. It has been reported that Holmes entered the theater with a ticket to prop the emergency door open and no alarm went off.
Karpel next blames Holmes' doctors because he thinks that they failed to properly keep an eye on Holmes, who may have been on prescription drugs at the time of the shooting.
Finally, Karpel is blaming Warner Bros. for producing such a violent movie that Holmes was inspired to mimic. "Somebody has to be responsible for the rampant violence that is shown today,” Karpel says.
Holmes made his first appearance in court yesterday. The prosecution said that it will consider pursuing the death penalty after talking with the victims’ families.
I can see the theater losing for the door
He wasn't under medical care was he before the shooting. I didn't read anywhere of him already being under medical care.
Finally, Karpel is blaming Warner Bros. for producing such a violent movie that Holmes was inspired to mimic. "Somebody has to be responsible for the rampant violence that is shown today,” Karpel says.
He didn't seem concern about going to see a violent movie and already had an idea how "dark" it wqas
Medium of Death wrote:What kind of scumbag starts rolling out the lawyers less than a week after the 'trauma' inducing experience of his friends death?
Would the alarm on the door really have made all the difference to the people trapped inside the theatre?
This guy is definitely giving off a money grabbing arse piece vibe.
You don't know how predatory lawyers can be man. I can damn well imagine a lawyer calling up every person in that theater, and asking them if they are interested in making some money. They take the case for free, and agree to work for like 40-50%.
In the kids confused state, he could easily be talked into this, as could his parents. Why not? its free money.
Utterly disgusting. This is in no way whatsoever Holmes' doctors' fault, or Warner Brothers, and the claim that its the theater bears responsibility is pretty fething weak.
fething scumbag lawyers. The friend might also be a scumbag if it was his idea, but it seems very likely that a predatory lawyer is preying on a vulnerable person.
Either way, the lawyer is gakky human being.
I especially take offense at blaming the movie, as it's the same bs slippery slope argument uptight soccer moms and old conservative white men/bloodiest of bleeding heart liberals have been trotting out since time immemorial ("Comic books are corrupting our youth!" "Video games are corrupting our youth!" etc, etc, etc) and it's bs.
Rimmy wrote: there are no "casualties" in this instance. they are all victims. there was no war in the streets of Aurora.
That's well said. A very good reminder of the insanity that plagues the whole culture, perceiving these murder victims like casualties in some war.
They died the same way that many died in Iraq and Afghanistan. Innocently and while minding their own business. It's not particularly different except now it's not so far removed from the American audience. They were technically casualties in several definitions of the word.
that notebook shows he was in his right mond when he wrote that all down. it was premeditated and he should be convicted of 12 counts of murder in the 1st degree and potentially the maximum number of occupants in his building and the theatre (could be thousands) for attempted murder in the first degree.
his insanity plea just went out the window.
there is no amount of pain we could inflict enough to give this savage or anyone else like him on earth that they deserve.
this jerkwad shot a 3 month old baby in the face and shot a 7 year old little girl IN THE BACK.
coward.
Actually it might indicate he is saying: 'I am mad, stop me before I do something rash.'
The defense lawyers will want to see these documents in their entirity, they will help with an insanity plea.
You might not like insanity please but I think this one may well be justified. A better way of looking at the issue is reviewing if insanity is of itself as concrete defence, or should some level of culpability be assumed even under diminshed responsibility. Its a tough call with far reaching consequences.
So there's already been all kinds of arguments about gun control (some friends of mine had an epic facebook argument about gun control after this incident) and some really poorly thought out initiatives to put metal detectors in movie complexes, and I doubt anyone anywhere honestly believes any of that nonsense is going to stop a single shooting spree.
But here we see that like so many of these cases the attacker was identified as disturbed, but the real threat wasn't identified until it was too late. It really is amazing how many of these mass shootings are inflicted by a person who had been recieving some but not enough psychiatric care.
If there was to be a real, honest conversation about how to stop these attacks in future I suspect greatly increased mental health funding would come out as key solution.
But that conversation never seems to happen.
EDIT
Actually, you know what, in addition to all the people on the left wing coming out with the oh-so predictable 'ban guns and this won't happen again' stuff, here's a list of some truly, truly insane right wing reactions to what caused the
I'm fething sick of this, really and truly. This is a real problem, and its one that can't be solved entirely, but it can be significantly reduced, if only people would look at finding a solution, instead of just contorting the issue back to their stupid, stupid pet issues. But we don't get that. Not even a little.
Rimmy wrote: there are no "casualties" in this instance. they are all victims. there was no war in the streets of Aurora.
That's well said. A very good reminder of the insanity that plagues the whole culture, perceiving these murder victims like casualties in some war.
They died the same way that many died in Iraq and Afghanistan. Innocently and while minding their own business. It's not particularly different except now it's not so far removed from the American audience. They were technically casualties in several definitions of the word.
sebster wrote:So there's already been all kinds of arguments about gun control (some friends of mine had an epic facebook argument about gun control after this incident) and some really poorly thought out initiatives to put metal detectors in movie complexes, and I doubt anyone anywhere honestly believes any of that nonsense is going to stop a single shooting spree.
But here we see that like so many of these cases the attacker was identified as disturbed, but the real threat wasn't identified until it was too late. It really is amazing how many of these mass shootings are inflicted by a person who had been recieving some but not enough psychiatric care.
If there was to be a real, honest conversation about how to stop these attacks in future I suspect greatly increased mental health funding would come out as key solution.
But that conversation never seems to happen.
Totally agree Sebs. People are arguing about the symptoms of the true issue... (Editing for Clarity) Gunsa ar ethe symptom, and lack of decent mental health resources is the true cause.
The real problem is that most people don;t have access to any sor tof Pyshiatric help as existing low cost resources are flooded, and the other alternatives are far too expensive.
Then, there is the whole issue of identifying mental illness in the first place.
If they think a few stick figures blowing people away counts as disturbing drawings, they should check out some of the gak I draw!
I don't see how this is important, gak happens. Its alright to blame people with the benefits of hindsight, indeed it seems to press are always desperate for blame. 9/11 and 7/7 were the governments fault as well apparently, because they "missed things"
Fact is, if you want to blame someone, blame the mad fether that did all the killing.
How are people supposed to mimic a film they haven't seen?
Perhaps it is a kind of "thought mimcry" in the course of which the person imagines what the film might be like, and then acts out the scenes they have made up.
Does the film actually contain a scene in which someone goes into a cinema and shoots at the audience?
Rimmy wrote: there are no "casualties" in this instance. they are all victims. there was no war in the streets of Aurora.
That's well said. A very good reminder of the insanity that plagues the whole culture, perceiving these murder victims like casualties in some war.
They died the same way that many died in Iraq and Afghanistan. Innocently and while minding their own business. It's not particularly different except now it's not so far removed from the American audience. They were technically casualties in several definitions of the word.
That's a scummy kind of equivocation.
Only if you like to distance yourself from deaths that occur to people who don't speak your language or aren't white. You didn't know those people, the only reason you feel anything at all is because it's just a smidge closer to home this time. Jihadin for all of his many, many, many faults has been to the other side of the world and has had mass killings performed in his vicinity before now. His reaction speaks to the kind of fatigue one has when they experience something horrifying with regularity. He's part of a more global tribe at this point while you're trying to make the bad that happened to yours unique or special.
ShumaGorath wrote:You didn't know those people, the only reason you feel anything at all is because it's just a smidge closer to home this time.
Well, I see you won't let anything that I actually have written in this thread get in the way of your larger agenda of making everything a political issue.
ShumaGorath wrote:Jihadin ... had mass killings performed in his vicinity before now.
Yeah, there's been nothing in the news ever before about this kind of public massacre happening in the United States, much less Virginia ... tell me more about the world, oh wise Shuma.
Well, I see you won't let anything that I actually have written in this thread get in the way of your larger agenda of making everything a political issue.
It's not a political point to note that you react much more strongly and take much more offense when the event happens in the place that little flag by your picture represents. It's not a political point to note that someone who has been to more places and seen more atrocities has a less local and sympathetic worldview. It's basic observation.
Yeah, there's been nothing in the news ever before about this kind of public massacre happening in the United States, much less Virginia ... tell me more about the world, oh wise Shuma.
That's the point. It hasn't, but Virginia is a small place and shootings are a regularity in the U.S., just not ones at midnight movie releases. You reacted strongly to the accurate use of a term by someone with the background to use it because you don't like it when your own country is treated the way every other one is. That's political. The observation of your behavior is not.
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Jihadin wrote:
Jihadin for all of his many, many, many faults
I need to improve on my posting skills
You need to post less things that make me want to smash my head into a wall.
ShumaGorath wrote:It's not a political point to note that you react much more strongly and take much more offense when the event happens in the place that little flag by your picture represents.
I don't recall shrugging off murders in other countries.
That's the point. It hasn't, but Virginia is a small place and shootings are a regularity in the U.S., just not ones at midnight movie releases.
What is this even supposed to mean? If shooting are such a regularity in a small place like Virginia, and your theory is that people become desensitized to violence by exposure, then why in the world would I be objecting to a soldier shrugging off murder in this case?
ShumaGorath wrote:You reacted strongly to the accurate use of a term by someone with the background to use it because you don't like it when your own country is treated the way every other one is.
I reacted against someone saying they are not bothered by children getting murdered. I find it especially alarming that a soldier would say this. Because soldiers are the exact people who need to be bothered by this -- you know, so they don't murder civilians. Your "points" here have nothing at all to do with anything that I have actually said.
Manchu: Soldiers shouldn't be casual about the murder of civilians.
ShumaGorath: Manchu only cares about Americans.
???
Enjoy your time on Mars. We'll have a medal ready when you get back.
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ShumaGorath wrote:You need to post less things that make me want to smash my head into a wall.
I don't recall shrugging off murders in other countries.
I don't recall you get hot under the collar about verbage either.
What is this even supposed to mean? If shooting are such a regularity in a small place like Virginia, and your theory is that people become desensitized to violence by exposure, then why in the world would I be objecting to a soldier shrugging off murder in this case?
Because I've never seen you take this kind of offense before now. Before it was suddenly nearby. Your reaction was seemingly personal.
I reacted against someone saying they are not bothered by children getting murdered. I find it especially alarming that a soldier would say this. Because soldiers are the exact people who need to be bothered by this -- you know, so they don't murder civilians. Your "points" here have nothing at all to do with anything that I have actually said.
ShumaGorath wrote:Because I've never seen you take this kind of offense before now. Before it was suddenly nearby. Your reaction was seemingly personal.
Dude seriously? You really think I'm the type to be okay with Iraqi kids getting murdered by anyone, much less American soldiers? After I posted that it's especially bad that a soldier would feel this way? I mean, there are people on Dakka like that -- usually, I'm arguing with them for 20+ pages about why voter ID laws are awful despite me not being old, poor, or black. I don't think I've ever posted anything to give the impression I only care about people like me. As for this instance, I've never seen a soldier post that he's not bothered by children getting murdered on Dakka, either. (Not that I believe it couldn't have happened before.)
@Chongara: See above. But I will say this much: in my view, civilization is more of an ongoing act rather than a status we have already acheived. The action itself consists in utterly rejecting what is barbarous. (The subjectivity of these terms is not at issue because the act of civilization is proper only to a society underpinned by common values. People who do not share values cannot "do civilization," at least not together.)
It supposedly hit the 12th (mail room). Since I never been to a university/college I assumed those mailrooms work like a unit mailroom. Also (forgot who mention it) the Psych doc was probaly out "vacation" (which it didn't occur to me when I assumed)
Easy E wrote:Totally agree Sebs. People are arguing about the symptoms of the true issue... (Editing for Clarity) Gunsa ar ethe symptom, and lack of decent mental health resources is the true cause.
The real problem is that most people don;t have access to any sor tof Pyshiatric help as existing low cost resources are flooded, and the other alternatives are far too expensive.
Then, there is the whole issue of identifying mental illness in the first place.
Well, to clarify, I think its more than just guns. A society steeped in violence and aggression plays a major part as well, it's just guns are, as you say, a symptom of that culture, and not just the culture itself. But addressing mental health is certainly a big part, and one that could see almost immediate results.
But unfortunately the battle lines are drawn, between the ban guns people and the 'here's a random bag of stupid pet interests that we're going to pretend have something to do with gun massacres'.
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dogma wrote:Best part? Pride is a deadly sin.
Huckabee is so weird, because you listen to him and talks in that wonderful accent, and has that warm smile and you just kind of figure that you're listening to a nice guy. And then you read a transcript of what he just said and you realise that Huckabee is really just a complete feth.
And yeah, a big part of why he's a feth is that massive amount of pride he has in himself.
Chongara wrote:This isn't an answer to my question, it's just a rephrasing of your previous statement.
Oh, you want me to explain to you what civilization is?
Please do! I love answers for unanswerables.
Pffeh, civilisation, unanswerable? I find you guilty of abandonning before even trying.
Also, why does anyone care about the inner workings of University mail? This factoid is only relevant insofar that it could, if things had happened differently, prevented the sad outcome of this tragedy. Billions of things could have. It's just that this is more apparent than all the other events. If people wants to find ways of preventing this type of things of happening, they won't do it by criticising the time it takes for Unis to deliver mail.
Like Frazz said, it's only relevant as far as an indicator of his state of mind. A psychologist I spoke to, who told me he had followed the first hearing, told me that the dude seemed to be suffering psychopathic dissociation during the hearing, which to him indicated that he was in control while he acted. The way he was explaining it to me seemed to suggest that he was now suffering the mental stress of having done something he can't possibly cope with. I'm not sure what that means in regards to something you've planned to extensively.
who told me he had followed the first hearing, told me that the dude seemed to be suffering psychopathic dissociation during the hearing, which to him indicated that he was in control while he acted. The way he was explaining it to me seemed to suggest that he was now suffering the mental stress of having done something he can't possibly cope with. I'm not sure what that means in regards to something you've planned to extensively
.
It means your mentaly "detached" while committing the action. Other way to describe it is he knew what he was doing but was in 3rd person mode. Other way to descrbe it would be (as an example} applying first aid to a badly wounded buddy, bullets flying near you and you go back to your training by remembering the steps to stop a heavy bleeder to prevent using a touriquet. Your aware of what your doing but not having the situational awareness of whats going on
Automatically Appended Next Post: Giving access to buy fire arms in my IMO should allow access to see if you are being seen mental patient. That should cut down on legally buying a weapon and using it if an individual is having a bad "episode"
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also Seb the civ line was along the line of my current perception of the dead
Jihadin wrote:
It means your mentaly "detached" while committing the action. Other way to describe it is he knew what he was doing but was in 3rd person mode. Other way to descrbe it would be (as an example} applying first aid to a badly wounded buddy, bullets flying near you and you go back to your training by remembering the steps to stop a heavy bleeder to prevent using a touriquet. Your aware of what your doing but not having the situational awareness of whats going on
The implication of him currently suffering said dissociation was that he wasn't at the time of the killing. At least that's the impression I got from what he told me. He also said a psychopath with his education might have been able to fake it well enough, so really, I'm thinking it's anyone's guess.
Jihadin wrote:Also Seb the civ line was along the line of my current perception of the dead
Sorry, I still don't know what you mean. You mentioned HIPA, and now seem to be referring to the civilisation/death penalty debate. I'm just missing how HIPA relates to anything?
He didn't seem concern about going to see a violent movie and already had an idea how "dark" it wqas
