As the title suggests, i was wandering about whats the proper name for the Imperium's religion, i know i heard it before but i dont remember where.

So, anybody knows?

The movement that became the Ecclesiarchy was called the Temple of the Savior Emperor.

Thanks

The Imperial Creed?

Manchu wrote:The movement that became the Ecclesiarchy was called the Temple of the Savior Emperor.

Then what is the difference between that and the Imperial Creed? If any.

The Ecclesiarchy is the organisation/church, the Imperial Creed is the, well creed of said Ecclesiarchy.

Makarov wrote:

Manchu wrote:The movement that became the Ecclesiarchy was called the Temple of the Savior Emperor.

Then what is the difference between that and the Imperial Creed? If any.

Many millennia of history.

I have seen a number of names for the Imperium's religion in M41, such as Imperial Cult, or even The One True Faith. None of these are particularly "unique", but they strengthen its perception as the only valid and sanctioned religion for people to follow. Some of these names may be unique to various licensed publications, but given the comparatively disorganised nature of the Imperium this isn't of any particular concern.

Also, the Imperial Creed isn't exactly the religion itself, but rather part of the religion. I suppose you could compare it to the Ten Commandments? It's basically a set of "virtues" for Imperial citizens, defining proper attitude towards xenos, witches and heretics as well as concepts such as Mankind's divine right to rule the stars and the need for expansion.

English Assassin wrote:The Imperial Creed?

That's what I thought.

I think its called The Imperial Cult. The basic tenets are the Imperial Creed. I could be wrong however. You never know with 40k and its twisted ball of yarn canon/noncanon.

The Imperial Cult seems to be the closest thing to an official name.

The Imperial Lie. As opposed to the Emperor's Imperial Truth, which he imposed severely, even going so far as to personally break the last priest on Ancient Terra, and burn Monarchia to ashes.

The original "Emperor=God" movement was called the Lectito Divinatus or something. Currently, It's usually called the Imperial Cult.

KamikazeCanuck wrote:The Imperial Cult seems to be the closest thing to an official name.

This.

DOOMBREAD wrote:The original "Emperor=God" movement was called the Lectito Divinatus or something.

In some novel.

Regardless of whether that one was the first or not, the "Cult of the Emperor Saviour" was the most influential movement in the time after the Heresy, and thus what eventually evolved into the "modern" Ecclesiarchy, by either swallowing or eliminating any other rival cults.

At least according to Codex fluff. Since the setting has no canon, one could of course prefer novel fluff. It's just as valid, only less likely to be repeated in other sources.

According to the Imperium there are no other religions, so you could just call it religion since it's the only example.

Imperialism.....duh

Cult of the Emperor Saviour is what pops out in my head.

When lorgar first cooked up the religion it was called the Lectitio Divinitatus and essentially had only one or two commandments, these being: The big E is a god and to to achieve salvation from strife you must recognise him as a god and pray to him. The from of the commandments makes me think they thought the warp was actual hell (which is a pretty big leap in the 31st millennium) and to be freed from its grasp and given eternal peace (to actually die?) you must recognise the emperor as your god and pray to him. When the heresy consumed the Imperium the lectitio changed it's name to avoid its association with any rouge primarch that is the greatest daemon user in the history of ever (hin, hint). This new cult then emerged after the end of the horus heresy when the Emporer was intured on the golden throne. This new order was called the "Cult of the Emperor Saviour" which basicly stated that he pulled a Jesus (sorry for anyone practising Christianity out there, no offence was meant) and blamed it on the warlock aliens and the humans they had corrupted with the use of psykers. And thus they incorporated that into the cult and over time they infiltrated the Ecclesiarchy who's sole purpose was to keep everyone in line like a semi-skjald. After 10,000 years the warped husk and remians of the original religion is called the imperial cult and is so fascist that people have regressed back to old ideals (guilty until proven innocent, innocence means nothing, people deserve not to live) add to this the fact that the armour, weapons and equipment issued to almost anyone in the 41st millennium is worth on the factor of 100 times more than the worth of the person.

And thus ends the tale of how a good religion has turned into one of the driving forces humanity is essentially cavemen with laser weapons.

Tadashi wrote:The Imperial Lie. As opposed to the Emperor's Imperial Truth, which he imposed severely, even going so far as to personally break the last priest on Ancient Terra, and burn Monarchia to ashes.

Don't blame the Ecclesiarchy for it;

A single candle guttered on an ornate silver stick in the centre of the room, throwing a yellowish, fitful light over the faces of the cowled figures stood in the dusty chamber.

"The Golden Throne works," one said, his voice aged and cracked. "The Emperor's life can be sustained indefinitely."

"His soul lives on?" another inquired, his long, sharp nose protruding from under the lip of his hood. "It is not an empty husk?"

"It is not," the first confirmed. "The Emperor has ascended to the next plane, but the link 'twixt body and spirit remains strong."

"Then it can be brought back," suggested the third, a young woman whose flowing white hair spilled from her hood and down to her waist. "The Emperor need not suffer this hideous eternal life in death."

"We can not risk such a thing!" the first hissed. "What if the spiritual link were severed? What if the person brought back was not the man we once knew? Changed? News of the Emperor's... ascension is already widespread. He is being revered as a god already on a hundred worlds. In this time of rebuilding we need a symbol. The Emperor has shown us the way. Anyway, who would believe the Emperor had returned so soon? It will cause a civil war more devastating than that of the fool Horus, and even now we have yet to start counting the cost of that. No, better that this knowledge remains hidden. When we pass on to join the Emperor, it will die with us.

"You cannot deny Mankind the Emperor," a fourth voice, deep and slow, stated firmly. "He and the empire he has built are Mankind's only chance of survival."

The woman and the deep-voiced man both withdrew into the shadows and a moment later the door creaked open, a chill draught causing the candle flame to flit wildly.

"Moriana, Promeus, wait!" the first man called out, but the door slammed shut in answer.

"We cannot let them do this," the hawk-nosed man decided.

"No we cannot," the first agreed. "We must act quickly, get organised and claim the initiative."

"It shall be done," the other concurred.
- Page 3, Inquisitor RPG rulebook, by Gav Thorpe (I think).

Bolded the important part. Before the Ecclesiarchy could properly be formed & founded, humanity, bereft of the phenomenal Emperor & lost in a crisis, turned to the age-old human way of dealing with things - worship. Because of the gulf he left behind humanity desperately needed to fill that void. So they turned to treating him like a God and, once the Ecclesiarchy was fully formed they capitalized upon this and it became a means of keeping humanity united.

A wonderful piece of irony - the Emperor taught them not to follow religions, but with the loss of the Emperor they willingly turned back to worship and, as an extra kick in the nads, worshiped the Emperor. Brilliant.

Tadashi wrote:The Imperial Lie

or the Impeial Paranoia

now in reality her name is Imperial's Truth. Or Cult of the Imperial's Truth i tihnk. but call it and Lecto Dvatous

Flying spaghetti Emperor Cult !

Pada wrote:

Tadashi wrote:The Imperial Lie

or the Impeial Paranoia

now in reality her name is Imperial's Truth. Or Cult of the Imperial's Truth i tihnk. but call it and Lecto Dvatous

How the Emperor must weep to see his dream and ideal perverted into a monstrosity.

More a lesson to him that you can't take humanity out of humans. When people don't have any answers or they're in a crisis, they'll hope, believe, want some greater being to sort things out. The Emperor, therefore, is a suitable person to worship when you hear he is dead & that there has been a civil war. The Emperor who taught humanity so much, who led them in a great crusade across the stars, the guiding hand of Mankind... is dead. What shall we do? Is there anyone who can replace him? Maybe if we pray to him he'll come back & protect us? Or he will protect us from whatever lays beyond, oh Guide us God-Emperor, hear our prayers!

Sparks_Havelock wrote:More a lesson to him that you can't take humanity out of humans. When people don't have any answers or they're in a crisis, they'll hope, believe, want some greater being to sort things out. The Emperor, therefore, is a suitable person to worship when you hear he is dead & that there has been a civil war. The Emperor who taught humanity so much, who led them in a great crusade across the stars, the guiding hand of Mankind... is dead. What shall we do? Is there anyone who can replace him? Maybe if we pray to him he'll come back & protect us? Or he will protect us from whatever lays beyond, oh Guide us God-Emperor, hear our prayers!

That doesn't justify the twisted parody the Imperium has become. The Ecclesiarchy is no better than the dregs of Chaos. Guilliman and the others should have taken control - they would have figured out a better way to keep the Imperium together without resorting to religion.

No it doesn't justify it but the base instinct of people worshiping the Emperor after they'd heard the news he was dead was a base human choice - the Emperor taught humanity not to worship him, he pops his clogs & suddenly humanity worship him as a god. The Ecclesiarchy just capitalised on it & made it a way to keep the Imperium united...and under firm control.

Sparks_Havelock wrote:No it doesn't justify it but the base instinct of people worshiping the Emperor after they'd heard the news he was dead was a base human choice - the Emperor taught humanity not to worship him, he pops his clogs & suddenly humanity worship him as a god. The Ecclesiarchy just capitalised on it & made it a way to keep the Imperium united...and under firm control.

And that is why I hate the Ecclesiarchy so much. They took advantage of the situation and stepped all over the Emperor's ideals and dreams. Weak, vile, cursed sorts of a false god - the Emperor is not a god. He never was, and never will be. He's a Human, the mightiest psyker who ever lived, nothing more nothing less. The Primarchs should have taken control and found a different path.

BTW, thanks for lighting the fire. In my 40k group's RPG next week, I'm going to be burning churches and killing priests. FOR THE EMPEROR!!!

Tadashi wrote:

Sparks_Havelock wrote:More a lesson to him that you can't take humanity out of humans. When people don't have any answers or they're in a crisis, they'll hope, believe, want some greater being to sort things out. The Emperor, therefore, is a suitable person to worship when you hear he is dead & that there has been a civil war. The Emperor who taught humanity so much, who led them in a great crusade across the stars, the guiding hand of Mankind... is dead. What shall we do? Is there anyone who can replace him? Maybe if we pray to him he'll come back & protect us? Or he will protect us from whatever lays beyond, oh Guide us God-Emperor, hear our prayers!

That doesn't justify the twisted parody the Imperium has become. The Ecclesiarchy is no better than the dregs of Chaos. Guilliman and the others should have taken control - they would have figured out a better way to keep the Imperium together without resorting to religion.

Your underestimating the amount of fear of Chaos was present after the heresy even amongst The Primarchs. This new faith was the only thing keeping the Imperium together and at first it just seems like really strong loyalty to The Big E.

The truth is, on the billions of worlds under Imerpial control, they have different religions that the Ecclesiarchy judges as either a different interpretation of praising the Emperor, or susceptible to Chaos taint. So since there are so damn many of these religions, you can narrow it down to either one of those two categories-

Praise the Emperor

Heresy

Million worlds, chap, just around a million. But yes there are many variations of worship across the galaxy (death cults, sun worshippers - all that sort of thing) and the Priests make sure they nudge that worship towards being solely for the Emperor & making sure they don't start including other... elements in their worship.

DxM Scotty MxD wrote:When the heresy consumed the Imperium the lectitio changed it's name to avoid its association with any rouge primarch that is the greatest daemon user in the history of ever (hin, hint). This new cult then emerged after the end of the horus heresy when the Emporer was intured on the golden throne. This new order was called the "Cult of the Emperor Saviour" [...]

Does that novel claim this direct connection?

I know the religious text is called the Lectitio Divinatus and it was originally penned by the Primarch Lorgar

Has anyone considered that Big E may not have started as a God, but now due to the Imperial Cult is one? Emotions have power in the warp, and can form gods, just look at the 4 chaos gods. It's quite possible that Big E did assent to god hood.

It's called the Imperial Cult.

ObliviousBlueCaboose wrote:Has anyone considered that Big E may not have started as a God, but now due to the Imperial Cult is one? Emotions have power in the warp, and can form gods, just look at the 4 chaos gods. It's quite possible that Big E did assent to god hood.

Indeed.

Either that, or that the Imperial faith has "birthed" an entirely new godlike being that unintentionally took the place of the God-Emperor, perhaps even believing that it is the Emperor simply because the masses think this. Meanwhile, the Emperor's true soul watches in anger as this warp spirit starts to exert control over the Imperium, and actually does a rather good job at it, as its motifs are dominated by "public demand".

KamikazeCanuck wrote:

Tadashi wrote:

Sparks_Havelock wrote:More a lesson to him that you can't take humanity out of humans. When people don't have any answers or they're in a crisis, they'll hope, believe, want some greater being to sort things out. The Emperor, therefore, is a suitable person to worship when you hear he is dead & that there has been a civil war. The Emperor who taught humanity so much, who led them in a great crusade across the stars, the guiding hand of Mankind... is dead. What shall we do? Is there anyone who can replace him? Maybe if we pray to him he'll come back & protect us? Or he will protect us from whatever lays beyond, oh Guide us God-Emperor, hear our prayers!

That doesn't justify the twisted parody the Imperium has become. The Ecclesiarchy is no better than the dregs of Chaos. Guilliman and the others should have taken control - they would have figured out a better way to keep the Imperium together without resorting to religion.

Your underestimating the amount of fear of Chaos was present after the heresy even amongst The Primarchs. This new faith was the only thing keeping the Imperium together and at first it just seems like really strong loyalty to The Big E.

DENIED (beheads a beaten missionary). We don't need the Imperial Cult. What we need is Roboutte Guilliman at the head of the council - the man can make a path for unity without resorting to religion.

Manchu wrote:The movement that became the Ecclesiarchy was called the Temple of the Savior Emperor.

However, the Temple of the Savior Emperor is now heretical as it still recognizes only Vandire.

Sebastian Thor's Confederation of Light is now the Ecclesiarchy.

Melissia wrote:

Manchu wrote:The movement that became the Ecclesiarchy was called the Temple of the Savior Emperor.

However, the Temple of the Savior Emperor is now heretical as it still recognizes only Vandire.

Sebastian Thor's Confederation of Light is now the Ecclesiarchy.

TBH, I never understood the difference between the two. Was there even one, apart from the name and leaders of the respective cults?

The main difference is on the focus of the two cults.

The Confederation of Light is focused on self-sacrifice and humility, although it doesn't always succeed. It models itself on Thor's life, sacrificing all for the good of the Emperor.

The Temple of the Savior Emperor, however, is more debauched, and has a tendency to gather material wealth and enjoy the pleasures of life.

That's the main difference as far as I know.

Melissia wrote:However, the Temple of the Savior Emperor is now heretical as it still recognizes only Vandire.

If you are referring to FFG's Temple Tendency, I suppose it's important to point out that this is a splinter faction of the greater Ecclesiarchy, which came to be formed from the Temple of the Saviour Emperor (amongst many other assimilated cults). Both the Temple Tendency as well as the Post-Vandire Ecclesiarchy thus have a connection to the Temple of the Saviour Emperor. It's not like the Imperium would have ousted all members of the clergy that were around back then - which, ironically, only makes it easier for groups such as the Temple Tendency to gain a "foot in the door" of the modern Ministorum.

There's loads of holy scriptures and commandments still preached whose origin is far older than M36. I have no idea how old the tenets of the Imperial Creed are, but I would not be surprised if they are way older as well.

Lynata wrote:

Melissia wrote:However, the Temple of the Savior Emperor is now heretical as it still recognizes only Vandire.

If you are referring to FFG's Temple Tendency, I suppose it's important to point out that this is a splinter faction of the greater Ecclesiarchy, which came to be formed from the Temple of the Saviour Emperor (amongst many other assimilated cults). Both the Temple Tendency as well as the Post-Vandire Ecclesiarchy thus have a connection to the Temple of the Saviour Emperor. It's not like the Imperium would have ousted all members of the clergy that were around back then - which, ironically, only makes it easier for groups such as the Temple Tendency to gain a "foot in the door" of the modern Ministorum.

There's loads of holy scriptures and commandments still preached whose origin is far older than M36. I have no idea how old the tenets of the Imperial Creed are, but I would not be surprised if they are way older as well.

Oh, I know that much. But I believe that this isn't actually invented by FFG, instead it is strongly suggested by Games Workshop's fluff about Vandire and Thor, with FFG merely elaborating on it.

Melissia wrote:Oh, I know that much. But I believe that this isn't actually invented by FFG, instead it is strongly suggested by Games Workshop's fluff about Vandire and Thor, with FFG merely elaborating on it.

You are still referring to the Temple Tendency?

I'm referring to the two sects.

Melissia wrote:I'm referring to the two sects.

The Confederation of Light doesn't have anything to to with the Temple Tendency - it was wiped out long before Vandire took power. Aside from the Temple of the Saviour Emperor itself, this was - as far as I remember - the only other cult ever mentioned in GW's background for the Ecclesiarchy.

Vandire himself never had a unique sect, so there was really nothing to elaborate on. What whoever wrote the Temple Tendency did was just to consider the obvious - that some people do not believe in change, preferring to cling to what they know - and work it from there.

There's lots of real life examples where something similar happened. As a (former) German, what springs to mind right away would be Nazi party members sitting in the post-WW2 West German government, courts and secret service.

A wonderful piece of irony - the Emperor taught them not to follow religions, but with the loss of the Emperor they willingly turned back to worship and, as an extra kick in the nads, worshiped the Emperor. Brilliant.

Indeed ironic .

Daemonhammer wrote:

A wonderful piece of irony - the Emperor taught them not to follow religions, but with the loss of the Emperor they willingly turned back to worship and, as an extra kick in the nads, worshiped the Emperor. Brilliant.

Indeed ironic .

More irony: He punished the Word Bearers for worshipping him as a god, and not only is he worshipped as a god, the Lectitio Divinitatus, which details how to worship the Emperor, was written by Lorgar.

Cerebrium wrote:

Daemonhammer wrote:

A wonderful piece of irony - the Emperor taught them not to follow religions, but with the loss of the Emperor they willingly turned back to worship and, as an extra kick in the nads, worshiped the Emperor. Brilliant.

Indeed ironic .

More irony: He punished the Word Bearers for worshipping him as a god, and not only is he worshipped as a god, the Lectitio Divinitatus, which details how to worship the Emperor, was written by Lorgar.

The Lectitio Divinitatus is the name of the book Lorgar wrote, not the religion itself.
A lectitio or lectionary, is a collection of scripture readings (technically ones that should be read on specific days).

That would make the contents of the book the Imperial Creed.
There are countless schisms of this Creed all contained within the Ecclessiarchy. When those schisms become too great, the local churches involved are either declared heretics and got rid of or forced to follow a more accepted version. This happened a lot in the early catholic church too.

cadbren wrote:The Lectitio Divinitatus is the name of the book Lorgar wrote, not the religion itself. [...] That would make the contents of the book the Imperial Creed.

Do these novels specifically refer to it as such?

According to the 2E SoB Codex, the Imperial Creed embodies the ideals of the founder of the Temple of the Saviour Emperor, an Imperial officer who came to be known as Fatidicus. These ideals, he claims, he received in a vision of the Emperor Himself, shortly after the Emperor died at the hands of Horus. This officer served in the defence of the Imperial Palace on Terra before turning into a preacher, which he only did after the Emperor was already dead. I don't see the connection.

Well i had read in one novel (Ravenor) that if they dont follow the religous books at 100% and have inside things from other beliefs, a serious action it will be taken.Maybe even Extreminatus

Lynata wrote:

cadbren wrote:The Lectitio Divinitatus is the name of the book Lorgar wrote, not the religion itself. [...] That would make the contents of the book the Imperial Creed.

Do these novels specifically refer to it as such?

According to the 2E SoB Codex, the Imperial Creed embodies the ideals of the founder of the Temple of the Saviour Emperor, an Imperial officer who came to be known as Fatidicus. These ideals, he claims, he received in a vision of the Emperor Himself, shortly after the Emperor died at the hands of Horus. This officer served in the defence of the Imperial Palace on Terra before turning into a preacher, which he only did after the Emperor was already dead. I don't see the connection.

Probably a latent psyker at best, or a daemonic vision at worst.

Lynata wrote:

cadbren wrote:The Lectitio Divinitatus is the name of the book Lorgar wrote, not the religion itself. [...] That would make the contents of the book the Imperial Creed.

Do these novels specifically refer to it as such?

The Horus Heresy books refer to the Lectitio as a book, I don't recall if the followers are given a specific name. The contents being the Imperial Creed is my opinion.

According to the 2E SoB Codex, the Imperial Creed embodies the ideals of the founder of the Temple of the Saviour Emperor,

That may be so, but the Temple of the Saviour Emperor sounds like the name of a church. Even if that is where the Ecclessiarchy originated, it doesn't mean that is the name of the religion. It would be like calling Catholicism 'The Vatican' or similar.

It is called "The Greater Good".

Tadashi wrote:Probably a latent psyker at best, or a daemonic vision at worst.

Or maybe just a religious man who claimed he saw stuff.
We have that in real life, too.

cadbren wrote:That may be so, but the Temple of the Saviour Emperor sounds like the name of a church. Even if that is where the Ecclessiarchy originated, it doesn't mean that is the name of the religion. It would be like calling Catholicism 'The Vatican' or similar.

Well, I suppose you might call it a case of abstraction. When people talk of the Christian Church, they generally mean the cult as a whole, too, even though a church is originally a building just like a temple. The words are pretty much interchangable.

Here's a quote from the Codex, though, to (hopefully) clear up confusion regarding both the original name of the Ecclesiarchy as well as shedding more light on its origins and the works of Fatidicus, for those who are interested yet do not have access to the book itself:

"Following the ultimate sacrifice of the Emperor, the Imperium was swept by a general upsurge in adoration and worship for him. Visionaries and prophets appeared on every world and cults following these divinely inspired individuals soon grew. There was no central organisation, no control, and even on the same planet there could be hundreds of different denominations, each performing their worship in a different manner, every one of them interpreting the Emperor's will in a slightly different way.

As is the way of such things, the stronger cults grew and prospered while the smaller, weaker ones faded away or were incorporated into the larger sects. Compromises of interpretation were found and slowly many cults became united. Although lots of worlds still had several different sects, other cults managed to spread beyond the surface of their planet, their servants travelling to other stars and worlds to spread their own version of faith. The most successful of these was the Temple of the Saviour Emperor.

The Temple of the Saviour Emperor had a number of advantages over its theological rivals. For a start it was centered on Terra, the Imperial planet, the centre point of the human race and the resting place of the Emperor himself. Secondly, its fanatical leader was originally a well-respected and highly decorated Imperial Guard officer who served in the defence of the Imperial Palace. He claimed he was sent instructions by the Emperor, who came to him in dreams and visions. His original name has long since passed from memory, but the officer renamed himself Fatidicus, which means 'Prophet' in one of the ancient Terran tongues. Fatidicus formed a massive following from the Imperial forces on Earth. From lowly scribes and clerks to Imperial Navy commanders and colonels of the Imperial Guard, the Temple of the Saviour Emperor welcomed everybody.

As time passed and these followers spread out across the Imperium in pursuit of their various duties, the Temple of the Saviour Emperor spread with them. Army and Navy officers initiated their men into the rites of the Temple, while zealous Missionaries travelled through the Imperium teaching their own religious code to anybody who would listen. They would use their immense skills to slowly incorporate the beliefs of those they met, while also imposing the doctrines of the Temple of the Saviour Emperor. At the venerable age of 120, Fatidicus died, but by now there were over a billion dedicated followers on Earth itself and countless servants throughout the Segmentum Solar."

Lynata wrote:

Tadashi wrote:Probably a latent psyker at best, or a daemonic vision at worst.

Or maybe just a religious man who claimed he saw stuff.
We have that in real life, too.

I suddenly remembered The Last Church.

‘If a man claimed his dead grandfather was speaking to him he’d be locked up in an asylum, but if he were to claim the voice of god was speaking to him, his fellow clerics might well make him into a saint. Clearly there is safety in numbers when it comes to hearing voices, eh?’

His Imperial Majesty has a very nice sense of humor...and yes, I am quite serious. All of a sudden, how the Ecclesiarchy took power becomes clear - there was more of them. It also makes me very suspicious of those visions received by Alicia and her fellow sisters...

Tadashi wrote:His Imperial Majesty has a very nice sense of humor...and yes, I am quite serious. All of a sudden, how the Ecclesiarchy took power becomes clear - there was more of them. It also makes me very suspicious of those visions received by Alicia and her fellow sisters...

I'd say it was less about existing numbers and more about potential. Humanity has always been susceptible to following a cause, and religion offers spiritual comfort.

As for any visions - if one were to believe this (personally, I'm on the fence and reserve judgment), it could of course tie in with a number of theories about the Emperor's continueing influence. Be it his persisting spirit attempting to guide the Imperium (a belief held by many in the Imperium, even some Space Marines), or an actual god being born out people's worship and "assuming" the role of Emperor. The latter theory came up recently in the "good daemons" thread, and I thought it was a rather interesting idea.

Lynata wrote:...personally, I'm on the fence and reserve judgment...

I can respect that. Me, I'm on the Great Crusade/Chaotic Good side of the fence.

Tadashi wrote:

KamikazeCanuck wrote:

Tadashi wrote:

Sparks_Havelock wrote:More a lesson to him that you can't take humanity out of humans. When people don't have any answers or they're in a crisis, they'll hope, believe, want some greater being to sort things out. The Emperor, therefore, is a suitable person to worship when you hear he is dead & that there has been a civil war. The Emperor who taught humanity so much, who led them in a great crusade across the stars, the guiding hand of Mankind... is dead. What shall we do? Is there anyone who can replace him? Maybe if we pray to him he'll come back & protect us? Or he will protect us from whatever lays beyond, oh Guide us God-Emperor, hear our prayers!

That doesn't justify the twisted parody the Imperium has become. The Ecclesiarchy is no better than the dregs of Chaos. Guilliman and the others should have taken control - they would have figured out a better way to keep the Imperium together without resorting to religion.

Your underestimating the amount of fear of Chaos was present after the heresy even amongst The Primarchs. This new faith was the only thing keeping the Imperium together and at first it just seems like really strong loyalty to The Big E.

DENIED (beheads a beaten missionary). We don't need the Imperial Cult. What we need is Roboutte Guilliman at the head of the council - the man can make a path for unity without resorting to religion.

Well, it looks like Guilliman must have made a pact with the burgeoning Ecclesiarchy to shore up his position back in the day. Which then immediately yeilded to the High Lords which always has a member from the church on it.

KamikazeCanuck wrote:Well, it looks like Guilliman must have made a pact with the burgeoning Ecclesiarchy to shore up his position back in the day. Which then immediately yeilded to the High Lords which always has a member from the church on it.

The Ecclesiarchy didn't have a seat on the Imperial Senate for quite some time - it took a while to spread and gain enough influence to appear irreplacable. From what it reads like in the studio material, Guilliman basically organised the High Lords to be the Emperor's pseudo-successors in terms of governance, simultaneously split up the Legions and the Imperial Army and established the Codex Astartes before voluntarily withdrawing from his office, obviously convinced that his work was done and that the humans should take over now (thus following the Emperor's original vision that the Marines weren't meant to be rulers but servants to humanity).

Good Guy Guilliman was probably the most humble of all Primarchs considering this act. I don't think he intended for the Ecclesiarchy to become recognized and even gain a seat on the Council, though, given the Space Marines' aversion to worshipping the Emperor as a god.

Lynata wrote:
Good Guy Guilliman was probably the most humble of all Primarchs considering this act. I don't think he intended for the Ecclesiarchy to become recognized and even gain a seat on the Council, though, given the Space Marines' aversion to worshipping the Emperor as a god.

Stupidity...Guilliman should never have divided the legions and never should have given up his post. In fact, he should have dissolved the council entirely, and as the Second Emperor, rebuilt the Imperium as a grander version of the Realm of Ultramar.

Lynata wrote:

KamikazeCanuck wrote:Well, it looks like Guilliman must have made a pact with the burgeoning Ecclesiarchy to shore up his position back in the day. Which then immediately yeilded to the High Lords which always has a member from the church on it.

The Ecclesiarchy didn't have a seat on the Imperial Senate for quite some time - it took a while to spread and gain enough influence to appear irreplacable. From what it reads like in the studio material, Guilliman basically organised the High Lords to be the Emperor's pseudo-successors in terms of governance, simultaneously split up the Legions and the Imperial Army and established the Codex Astartes before voluntarily withdrawing from his office, obviously convinced that his work was done and that the humans should take over now (thus following the Emperor's original vision that the Marines weren't meant to be rulers but servants to humanity).

Good Guy Guilliman was probably the most humble of all Primarchs considering this act. I don't think he intended for the Ecclesiarchy to become recognized and even gain a seat on the Council, though, given the Space Marines' aversion to worshipping the Emperor as a god.

Tadashi wrote:

Lynata wrote:
Good Guy Guilliman was probably the most humble of all Primarchs considering this act. I don't think he intended for the Ecclesiarchy to become recognized and even gain a seat on the Council, though, given the Space Marines' aversion to worshipping the Emperor as a god.

Stupidity...Guilliman should never have divided the legions and never should have given up his post. In fact, he should have dissolved the council entirely, and as the Second Emperor, rebuilt the Imperium as a grander version of the Realm of Ultramar.

It was both incredibly humble and stupid. But hindsight is 20/20 as they say.

He divided the Legions and the Army so a revolt on the same scale as the HH couldn't happen again. It makes perfect sense. And Guilliman stuck to the plan that Marines are servants of mankind, and not leaders, thank the Emperor.

ObliviousBlueCaboose wrote:He divided the Legions and the Army so a revolt on the same scale as the HH couldn't happen again. It makes perfect sense. And Guilliman stuck to the plan that Marines are servants of mankind, and not leaders, thank the Emperor.

And in so doing killed the only chance of the Imperium not becoming a monstrosity after the Horus Heresy. Look around you, Guardsman. How different is the Imperium from Chaos? In Chaos there is anarchy...in the Imperium there is stagnation. How is that any better?

The Astrades had their shot to run things with a unified Legion system. They failed. Hard.

ObliviousBlueCaboose wrote:The Astrades had their shot to run things with a unified Legion system. They failed. Hard.

I would say the same for normal Humans. Either way, we're damned unless the Emperor gets off the throne and takes control.

Lynata wrote:

cadbren wrote:The Lectitio Divinitatus is the name of the book Lorgar wrote, not the religion itself. [...] That would make the contents of the book the Imperial Creed.

Do these novels specifically refer to it as such?

According to the 2E SoB Codex, the Imperial Creed embodies the ideals of the founder of the Temple of the Saviour Emperor, an Imperial officer who came to be known as Fatidicus. These ideals, he claims, he received in a vision of the Emperor Himself, shortly after the Emperor died at the hands of Horus. This officer served in the defence of the Imperial Palace on Terra before turning into a preacher, which he only did after the Emperor was already dead. I don't see the connection.

I have the distressing feeling we'll see this retconned when the heresy series finally reaches its end; indeed I foresee it turning out to be John Grammaticus, or at least connected to his plotline. Whatever happens, I'm sure we'll find out...

English Assassin wrote:I have the distressing feeling we'll see this retconned when the heresy series finally reaches its end

Possibly. Given that 40k does not really have a canon anyways, there is no need per se - and we've seen countless new takes by various outsourced products ignored in the past. Yet, the studio has at times also adopted licensee material they regarded as cool, such as with the Tanith First and Only or the Last Chancers. We'll see it when we get there, I suppose.

Lynata wrote:

English Assassin wrote:I have the distressing feeling we'll see this retconned when the heresy series finally reaches its end

Possibly. Given that 40k does not really have a canon anyways, there is no need per se - and we've seen countless new takes by various outsourced products ignored in the past. Yet, the studio has at times also adopted licensee material they regarded as cool, such as with the Tanith First and Only or the Last Chancers. We'll see it when we get there, I suppose.

Or something really tragic...like the Emperor really ends up dying, and it really is just Malcador on the Golden Throne all this time. And Guilliman really does try and create his Imperium Secundus, which probably involves more than just reorganizing the Imperium and breaking down the legions, but is forced to leave with an incomplete work.

I for one miss the days when there was a measure of ambiguity in the background; sadly, the more GW write, the less there is.

Edit: @Lynata: Despire my oft-stated hostility to 'narrative' on the tabletop when it comes at the expense of balance and meaningful competitiveness, I find myself cautiously optimistic at the recently-suggested possibility that we might see more of BL's stuff integrated to the game itself. I would rather enjoy the chance to put Commissar Cain onto the field.

English Assassin wrote:I for one miss the days when there was a measure of ambiguity in the background; sadly, the more GW write, the less there is.

Really? From my impression things have been getting more and more vague and ambiguous, compared to the days when the codices actually had some hard numbers or technical schematics in them.

Lynata wrote:

English Assassin wrote:I for one miss the days when there was a measure of ambiguity in the background; sadly, the more GW write, the less there is.

Really? From my impression things have been getting more and more vague and ambiguous, compared to the days when the codices actually had some hard numbers or technical schematics in them.

Isn't that kinda bad? It makes fluff even more open to more interpretations - at this rate, people will end up fighting over obscure bits of fluff...not that we don't do that already...

Tadashi wrote:Isn't that kinda bad? It makes fluff even more open to more interpretations - at this rate, people will end up fighting over obscure bits of fluff...not that we don't do that already...

Well, I suppose it serves to better bring studio material in line with the outsourced material, so that most conflicts would be limited between the licensed products rather than between them and GW itself.

As for the fighting - I guess it would help a lot if people would just finally get to terms with the fact that there is no such thing as a canon and that interpretation is a matter of focus. That could prevent a lot of misunderstandings and should keep people away from each others' throats, given that (essentially) "everybody is right" in some way. Any fights should be limited to specific sources.

What large parts of the community still cling to is the worst possible scenario: lots of people remaining convinced that "yes, there is a canon" - but then everybody disagrees about what it is, so nobody can produce a universally accepted proof for his argument. That stuff only works with franchises that actually enforce consistency, such as Battletech or Star Wars. Taking the approach to those franchises and applying it to Warhammer just doesn't work out.

Me, I'm a fan of detail. The more detailed, the better; it's why I find the older books so awesome.
I can sort of understand why GW moved away from that, though, as sad as it is.

Lynata wrote:

Me, I'm a fan of detail. The more detailed, the better; it's why I find the older books so awesome.
I can sort of understand why GW moved away from that, though, as sad as it is.

I agree. Detail is good, especially about 'hot' topics, like the nature of Saints, the Emperor's origins, the Blood Ravens and other Chapters 'without Primarchs', the nature of the Ethereals...and so on. I also wish they'd be less derivative of Warhammer Fantasy and carry on the feel of 3rd and 4th Editions...4th Edition, that was good.

Having some ambiguity around The Primarchs and Emperor was kind of good though. Added some mystique.

KamikazeCanuck wrote:Having some ambiguity around The Primarchs and Emperor was kind of good though. Added some mystique.

Mhm, I can dig that.

It's a tricky thing. For one I appreciate the "insert your own idea here" approach that GW went for when they deliberately left some stuff open, the two unknown Legions being just one example of many, and I would never want that to change. On the other I still greatly enjoy reading about history, organisation and technical details.

I think 2E had a rather good compromise between the two. Leaving a lot of stuff in the dark, yet also delivering detailed explanations to a lot of less important (but interesting) stuff that was everyday business in M41. Like giving you some of the most important basics for the "here and now" yet still leaving the distant past untouched and for you to speculate about.

Lynata wrote:

KamikazeCanuck wrote:Having some ambiguity around The Primarchs and Emperor was kind of good though. Added some mystique.

Mhm, I can dig that.

It's a tricky thing. For one I appreciate the "insert your own idea here" approach that GW went for when they deliberately left some stuff open, the two unknown Legions being just one example of many, and I would never want that to change. On the other I still greatly enjoy reading about history, organisation and technical details.

I think 2E had a rather good compromise between the two. Leaving a lot of stuff in the dark, yet also delivering detailed explanations to a lot of less important (but interesting) stuff that was everyday business in M41. Like giving you some of the most important basics for the "here and now" yet still leaving the distant past untouched and for you to speculate about.

Yes, but I think they should actually just write what happened to the two missing Primarchs. No good fan fiction has come from that plot seed. It's hard to take seriously anyone who says the diy chapter is The Missing Legion anyway and the 31st millenium has been so fleshed out now that it's becoming ridiculus to not address it.

KamikazeCanuck wrote:Yes, but I think they should actually just write what happened to the two missing Primarchs. No good fan fiction has come from that plot seed. It's hard to take seriously anyone who says the diy chapter is The Missing Legion anyway and the 31st millenium has been so fleshed out now that it's becoming ridiculus to not address it.

Fan-fiction quality is, of course, always in the eye of the beholder - at least the writer would like it, and for his own game that is the most important thing.

I agree about the 31st Millennium, however, at least as far as the Horus Heresy novels are concerned. When everything else is described, there's no need to stop there.
There is no need to adopt any of the novel stuff into the Codex material, though.

Lynata wrote:

ObliviousBlueCaboose wrote:Has anyone considered that Big E may not have started as a God, but now due to the Imperial Cult is one? Emotions have power in the warp, and can form gods, just look at the 4 chaos gods. It's quite possible that Big E did assent to god hood.

Indeed.

Either that, or that the Imperial faith has "birthed" an entirely new godlike being that unintentionally took the place of the God-Emperor, perhaps even believing that it is the Emperor simply because the masses think this. Meanwhile, the Emperor's true soul watches in anger as this warp spirit starts to exert control over the Imperium, and actually does a rather good job at it, as its motifs are dominated by "public demand".

Makes sense, but why hasnt the daemon god-emperor risen yet to take command over the imperium and why havent seen any loyalist daemons yet?
Or wait, the high lords of terra could be possesed by the chaos god emperor...

Daemonhammer wrote:

Lynata wrote:

ObliviousBlueCaboose wrote:Has anyone considered that Big E may not have started as a God, but now due to the Imperial Cult is one? Emotions have power in the warp, and can form gods, just look at the 4 chaos gods. It's quite possible that Big E did assent to god hood.

Indeed.

Either that, or that the Imperial faith has "birthed" an entirely new godlike being that unintentionally took the place of the God-Emperor, perhaps even believing that it is the Emperor simply because the masses think this. Meanwhile, the Emperor's true soul watches in anger as this warp spirit starts to exert control over the Imperium, and actually does a rather good job at it, as its motifs are dominated by "public demand".

Makes sense, but why hasnt the daemon god-emperor risen yet to take command over the imperium and why havent seen any loyalist daemons yet?
Or wait, the high lords of terra could be possesed by the chaos god emperor...

Or maybe the golden throne keeps it imprisoned... just a thought.

English Assassin wrote:Or maybe the golden throne keeps it imprisoned... just a thought.

Hmm, I remember the short story bit on the first pages of the Inquisitor RPG.
Still, that one seems geared pretty straight-forward to the "true" Emperor.

It comes down to how you interpret things. We know that the Emperor's servants receive visions. Are those the actual commands of the Emperor or is it all fake? Could well go both ways.
As for loyalist daemons - well, we did talk about Living Saints in that other thread just recently.

Lynata wrote: Are those the actual commands of the Emperor or is it all fake? Could well go both ways.

Fake, IMO.

‘If a man claimed his dead grandfather was speaking to him he’d be locked up in an asylum, but if he were to claim the voice of god was speaking to him, his fellow clerics might well make him into a saint. Clearly there is safety in numbers when it comes to hearing voices, eh?’

‘Priests,’ said the man, almost spitting the word as though its very syllables were a poison to him. ‘Then I fear you have met only the wrong kind,’ said Uriah. ‘Is there a right kind?’

‘Verona’s work was never meant for darkness,’ said the Emperor. ‘Only in the light can it achieve its full potential. Humanity is the same, and only when the suffocating shadows of a religion that teaches us not to question is gone from this world will we see its true brilliance.’

His Imperial Majesty HATES priests...he spits on the very idea of religion.

Ah yes, I knew I'd taken that idea from somewhere!

I have to say, I'm quite content for the true nature and state of the Emperor to remain mysterious; the speculation it generates - and the different possibilities for storytelling - is vastly more interesting than any concrete answer.

Old testiment christianity

Tadashi wrote:His Imperial Majesty HATES priests...he spits on the very idea of religion.

And yet he has a god-complex himself in that novel.

It was a very cool read, though. Unfortunately that priest didn't pull all the possible arguments - the kind I heard when I had a discussion like the Emperor in that story once.
The very last sentence with the clock made me shiver tho. Quite recommendable!

Lynata wrote:

Tadashi wrote:His Imperial Majesty HATES priests...he spits on the very idea of religion.

And yet he has a god-complex himself in that novel.

What did you expect from a 30,000+ year-old trans-Human? And considering all of the prophets, messiahs, etc. of Ancient Terra (in 40k, at least) were all his aliases, he would know religion is just a facade.

The very last sentence with the clock made me shiver tho. Quite recommendable!

‘Nonsense. The universe cares not a whit for our actions or us. Our fate is wrought by our own hands.’

I don't believe in pre-determined fate...and apparently, neither did the Emperor, 'Manifest Destiny' not withstanding.

TBH, I'm more concerned about this part:

The ceiling was entirely covered in a series of wide panels, each one depicting a different scene; nude figures disporting in a magical garden; an explosion of stars; a battle between a golden knight and a silver dragon; and myriad other scenes of a similarly fantastical nature.

...the central image of the fresco, that of a wondrous being of light surrounded by a halo of golden machinery.

The Garden of Eden (how that fits into 40k I have no idea)...perhaps the War in Heaven or the creation the Eye of Terror...the Emperor rising to challenge the Void Dragon...and last, and most ominous - either the Emperor, Magnus, or Malcador seated on the Golden Throne. How the painter learned of this...most ominous.

Tadashi wrote:What did you expect from a 30,000+ year-old trans-Human? And considering all of the prophets, messiahs, etc. of Ancient Terra (in 40k, at least) were all his aliases, he would know religion is just a facade.

A facade for what? Worship of an extremely powerful, superhuman, actually truly godlike entity that actually exists?
I suppose it comes down to what one considers worthy of such a title. I for one am not at all surprised people were hyping him. Not how this character was written up at least (assuming there's even an inkling of truth about the descriptions of his appearances in the studio material, and it's not all just some in-setting legend deliberately exaggerated by the author - an actual possibility, after all, given the statements of the people who wrote the stuff).

Tadashi wrote:I don't believe in pre-determined fate...and apparently, neither did the Emperor, 'Manifest Destiny' not withstanding.

I don't think the concept of a "pre-determined fate" ever meant anything in the Imperium, regardless of the era.

Tadashi wrote:The Garden of Eden (how that fits into 40k I have no idea)...perhaps the War in Heaven or the creation the Eye of Terror...the Emperor rising to challenge the Void Dragon...and last, and most ominous - either the Emperor, Magnus, or Malcador seated on the Golden Throne. How the painter learned of this...most ominous.

Psychic powers do allow visions of the future. *shrugs*
I don't think the author actually thought much about that, though. It was included to give people chills, and it works well as such.

Lynata wrote:

Tadashi wrote:What did you expect from a 30,000+ year-old trans-Human? And considering all of the prophets, messiahs, etc. of Ancient Terra (in 40k, at least) were all his aliases, he would know religion is just a facade.

A facade for what? Worship of an extremely powerful, superhuman, actually truly godlike entity that actually exists?
I suppose it comes down to what one considers worthy of such a title. I for one am not at all surprised people were hyping him. Not how this character was written up at least (assuming there's even an inkling of truth about the descriptions of his appearances in the studio material, and it's not all just some in-setting legend deliberately exaggerated by the author - an actual possibility, after all, given the statements of the people who wrote the stuff).

All the more reason for me to dislike the Ecclesiarchy - the Emperor had enough of religion twisting what he kept trying to tell people to do, so he went the other way...which would have worked in the long run, seeing as the Powers were terribly anxious the curtail the spread of the Imperial Truth.

Tadashi wrote:All the more reason for me to dislike the Ecclesiarchy - the Emperor had enough of religion twisting what he kept trying to tell people to do, so he went the other way...which would have worked in the long run, seeing as the Powers were terribly anxious the curtail the spread of the Imperial Truth.

The Emperor always was his own religion, he just didn't like a rival competing with people's hearts when it was Him who felt a divine right to lead humanity. Some might say that not calling a godlike being with a god-complex a god is nothing more but a severe case of denial, but at the very least it becomes a question of semantics.

I also do not believe in some of those novels' idea of this supposed "Imperial Truth" and its apparent effect on the Ruinous Powers. Daemons are fed by emotions, which exist whether you know of them or not, and whether you follow some religion or not.

Lynata wrote:

Tadashi wrote:All the more reason for me to dislike the Ecclesiarchy - the Emperor had enough of religion twisting what he kept trying to tell people to do, so he went the other way...which would have worked in the long run, seeing as the Powers were terribly anxious the curtail the spread of the Imperial Truth.

The Emperor always was his own religion, he just didn't like a rival competing with people's hearts when it was Him who felt a divine right to lead humanity. Some might say that not calling a godlike being with a god-complex a god is nothing more but a severe case of denial, but at the very least it becomes a question of semantics.

I also do not believe in some of those novels' idea of this supposed "Imperial Truth" and its apparent effect on the Ruinous Powers. Daemons are fed by emotions, which exist whether you know of them or not, and whether you follow some religion or not.

The Imperial Truth was a long-term plan...as opposed to emotions, which take effect almost instantly (and knowing Chaos' unpredictable nature, with nasty results), the Imperial Truth takes time to take effect but would be more useful/effective in the long run.

And while you have a point the old man didn't want a rival, I would say he didn't want to be worshipped, but rather obeyed, and with good reason, seeing as he was the only material being the Powers (who one can argue the biggest threat the galaxy has faced since the C'tan and until the arrival of the Tyranids) ever feared. Not even Eldrad, lauded by his people as the greatest of their seers, ever warranted the complete attention of the Powers.

BTW, as for my C'tan reference, ignore the newcron fluff.

Lynata wrote:As for the fighting - I guess it would help a lot if people would just finally get to terms with the fact that there is no such thing as a canon and that interpretation is a matter of focus. That could prevent a lot of misunderstandings and should keep people away from each others' throats, given that (essentially) "everybody is right" in some way. Any fights should be limited to specific sources.

What large parts of the community still cling to is the worst possible scenario: lots of people remaining convinced that "yes, there is a canon" - but then everybody disagrees about what it is, so nobody can produce a universally accepted proof for his argument. That stuff only works with franchises that actually enforce consistency, such as Battletech or Star Wars. Taking the approach to those franchises and applying it to Warhammer just doesn't work out.

Makes having a background section on forums redundant in a way as majority of the stuff is people arguing over whats right and wrong

Tadashi wrote:All the more reason for me to dislike the Ecclesiarchy - the Emperor had enough of religion twisting what he kept trying to tell people to do, so he went the other way...which would have worked in the long run, seeing as the Powers were terribly anxious the curtail the spread of the Imperial Truth.

Is this the definite case though? Or is it simply because the Chaos Gods recognised what the Emperor was attempting to achieve and didn't like losing their already established Chaos colonies and followers being wiped out? If the Emperor had not had created the Primarchs or intended to reconquer the galaxy, would they have even been interested in our speck of a planet?

Tadashi wrote:
And while you have a point the old man didn't want a rival, I would say he didn't want to be worshipped, but rather obeyed, and with good reason, seeing as he was the only material being the Powers (who one can argue the biggest threat the galaxy has faced since the C'tan and until the arrival of the Tyranids) ever feared.

Isn't that what a God wants anyway?

Tadashi wrote:The Imperial Truth was a long-term plan...as opposed to emotions, which take effect almost instantly (and knowing Chaos' unpredictable nature, with nasty results), the Imperial Truth takes time to take effect but would be more useful/effective in the long run.

Again, how does that work? What is this effect, exactly?

Tadashi wrote:And while you have a point the old man didn't want a rival, I would say he didn't want to be worshipped, but rather obeyed

I'm sure that was at least what he proclaimed. Depending on whether you take the Emperor's behaviour in that short story as accurate or not, he clearly had a conflicting subconscious need for the opposite, though. You don't strut around like King Louis XIV when you do not wish to be worshipped.

.. you know, the more I think about it, the better it fits. Maybe the Emperor really was Louis XIV once. All the signs are there!

Tadashi wrote:Not even Eldrad, lauded by his people as the greatest of their seers, ever warranted the complete attention of the Powers.

Well, unlike the humans at that time, the Eldar already were already pretty much done for.

Pilau Rice wrote:Makes having a background section on forums redundant in a way as majority of the stuff is people arguing over whats right and wrong

I guess it's all well and good if people would at least know the "rules" of the franchise - that "right" or "wrong" are usually determined by whatever source the individual posters go by.

Pilau Rice wrote:
Is this the definite case though? Or is it simply because the Chaos Gods recognised what the Emperor was attempting to achieve and didn't like losing their already established Chaos colonies and followers being wiped out? If the Emperor had not had created the Primarchs or intended to reconquer the galaxy, would they have even been interested in our speck of a planet?

Seeing as the old man's long-term plan involved a safe acceleration of Human psychic evolution, the Imperial Truth was needed to stabilize the Warp, which the Powers would obviously never want. And next, the Emperor turning every Human into fully-realized psykers would probably filter their emotions, strangling the Powers' energy source.

Tadashi wrote:
And while you have a point the old man didn't want a rival, I would say he didn't want to be worshipped, but rather obeyed, and with good reason, seeing as he was the only material being the Powers (who one can argue the biggest threat the galaxy has faced since the C'tan and until the arrival of the Tyranids) ever feared.

Isn't that what a God wants anyway?

HE. IS. NOT. A. GOD.

Didn't he make that clear? He was a benevolent dictator, not a god-head, at least as far as he and the Great Crusade-era Imperium were concerned.

Lynata wrote:I have seen a number of names for the Imperium's religion in M41, such as Imperial Cult, or even The One True Faith. None of these are particularly "unique", but they strengthen its perception as the only valid and sanctioned religion for people to follow. Some of these names may be unique to various licensed publications, but given the comparatively disorganised nature of the Imperium this isn't of any particular concern.

Also, the Imperial Creed isn't exactly the religion itself, but rather part of the religion. I suppose you could compare it to the Ten Commandments? It's basically a set of "virtues" for Imperial citizens, defining proper attitude towards xenos, witches and heretics as well as concepts such as Mankind's divine right to rule the stars and the need for expansion.

^^ this is an excellent description of what the creed is/does.
because of how disorganized the imperium is, many worlds and systems use different term and language to describe the faith.
for example, in fenris the SW refer to the emperor as the All Father.

Lynata wrote:

Pilau Rice wrote:Makes having a background section on forums redundant in a way as majority of the stuff is people arguing over whats right and wrong

I guess it's all well and good if people would at least know the "rules" of the franchise - that "right" or "wrong" are usually determined by whatever source the individual posters go by.

But which one is righter or wronger

Tadashi wrote:Seeing as the old man's long-term plan involved a safe acceleration of Human psychic evolution, the Imperial Truth was needed to stabilize the Warp, which the Powers would obviously never want. And next, the Emperor turning every Human into fully-realized psykers would probably filter their emotions, strangling the Powers' energy source.

Que

Tadashi wrote:

HE. IS. NOT. A. GOD.

Didn't he make that clear? He was a benevolent dictator, not a god-head, at least as far as he and the Great Crusade-era Imperium were concerned.

Nor did I say he was, I said doesn't a God want to be obeyed?

Lynata wrote:

Tadashi wrote:The Imperial Truth was a long-term plan...as opposed to emotions, which take effect almost instantly (and knowing Chaos' unpredictable nature, with nasty results), the Imperial Truth takes time to take effect but would be more useful/effective in the long run.

Again, how does that work? What is this effect, exactly?

People don't believe in the existence of gods and daemons...the Warp won't be affected as quickly, but it would eventually react in a detrimental effect, at least as far as the creatures of the Immaterium are concerned.

Tadashi wrote:And while you have a point the old man didn't want a rival, I would say he didn't want to be worshipped, but rather obeyed

I'm sure that was at least what he proclaimed. Depending on whether you take the Emperor's behaviour in that short story as accurate or not, he clearly had a conflicting subconscious need for the opposite, though. You don't strut around like King Louis XIV when you do not wish to be worshipped.

.. you know, the more I think about it, the better it fits. Maybe the Emperor really was Louis XIV once. All the signs are there!

The sight of the Emperor walking around in a powdered wig is something I'd rather not have inflicted on my imagination a second time.

He Who Stood wrote:
because of how disorganized the imperium is, many worlds and systems use different term and language to describe the faith.
for example, in fenris the SW refer to the emperor as the All Father.

Not quite...seeing as Bjorn fought alongside the old man, I would say no, they don't see him as a god.

Tadashi wrote:Seeing as the old man's long-term plan involved a safe acceleration of Human psychic evolution, the Imperial Truth was needed to stabilize the Warp, which the Powers would obviously never want. And next, the Emperor turning every Human into fully-realized psykers would probably filter their emotions, strangling the Powers' energy source.

That still isn't an explanation for how this "Imperial Truth" should have any effect on the power of daemons.

Again: the Ruinous Powers are completely unaffected by both religion or superstition. They are fed by emotions. Religion and superstition may feed emotion, just as much as they can provide stability and serenity (it is somewhat ironical how the Sisters of Battle are lauded for their resistance against daemonic corruption, I guess, given that they clearly draw it from their faith).
And even if people becoming psykers would have any effect on their emotions (how?), this too is completely independent from any religion or knowledge of daemons, and in addition has nothing to do whatsoever with this supposed Imperial Truth anyways.

The "Imperial Truth" makes sense as an effort by the Emperor to solidify his command over humanity. It does not make sense as a shield against the Ruinous Powers, and has zero effect on their power, nor would it be regarded as a threat in any way.

Tadashi wrote:HE. IS. NOT. A. GOD.
Didn't he make that clear?

Obviously not.

Tadashi wrote:People don't believe in the existence of gods and daemons...the Warp won't be affected as quickly

Now where did you get that idea?

Tadashi wrote:People don't believe in the existence of gods and daemons...the Warp won't be affected as quickly, but it would eventually react in a detrimental effect, at least as far as the creatures of the Immaterium are concerned.

People didn't initially believe in Gods in the first place, obviously I can't confirm this as I don't have my time machine fully operational yet, I am still waiting for my future self to come back in time and tell me how to get it to work, yet the Chaos Gods started to gain form. Actions and Emotions started the birth of the Gods, you would have to stop people from feeling anything to prevent this. As long as there are sentient races with warp signatures, even shrubberies and hedgehogs would have an effect in the warp if RoC is anything to go by, the denizens of the warp would be fine.

I'm sure hedgehogs RAAAAAAAAAAAAGE when their poor hedgehog wife has been squished and shrubberies love it when you pick their berries.

Lynata wrote:

Again: the Ruinous Powers are completely unaffected by both religion or superstition. They are fed by emotions. Religion and superstition may feed emotion, just as much as they can provide stability and serenity (it is somewhat ironical how the Sisters of Battle are lauded for their resistance against daemonic corruption, I guess, given that they clearly draw it from their faith).

Belief in 'disbelief' - there are instances IRL where people who live in haunted houses/places don't get affected by paranormal events because they refuse to accept its existence even when everything and everyone around them is being tormented, the old man was trying to replicate this effect across the whole Human race.

And even if people becoming psykers would have any effect on their emotions (how?), this too is completely independent from any religion or knowledge of daemons, and in addition has nothing to do whatsoever with this supposed Imperial Truth anyways.

As I said, a filtering effect. Or something like that...*shrugs*

Tadashi wrote:People don't believe in the existence of gods and daemons...the Warp won't be affected as quickly

Now where did you get that idea?

See above...

Pilau Rice wrote:

I'm sure hedgehogs RAAAAAAAAAAAAGE when their poor hedgehog wife has been squished and shrubberies love it when you pick their berries.

*raises eyebrows* SAKURA! Get my hunting rifle...and borrow old man Jenkin's chainsaw. I've got vermin to shoot, and you can 'trim' those shrubs.

Tadashi wrote:Belief in 'disbelief' - there are instances IRL where people who live in haunted houses/places don't get affected by paranormal events because they refuse to accept its existence even when everything and everyone around them is being tormented, the old man was trying to replicate this effect across the whole Human race.

Well, of course that theory only works if you believe in paranormal events in the first place. Not much of a difference to believing in gods.

But even then it would have no meaning for this setting. The "paranormal events" in 40k are not some sort of ghosts displacing furniture or whatever, but actual daemons that cross over into realspace in a physical form, capable of ripping people apart with red-blooded claws. On their homeplane, they are formed by thoughts and emotions - regardless of whether people actually believe in them or not - and I do not think you can simply "wish them away" once they have been "born". The Warp as a source of their power (as well as the source of power for psykers in general) will continue to exist, and to truly eliminate Chaos you'd have to eliminate the Warp. That is pretty much the only way, I think.

An atheist Flesh Tearer Space Marine hacking and biting through a horde of helpless civilians will feed Khorne as much as a religiously motivated cultist praying to him as his god. Actually, I'm fairly sure Khorne will find more joy in the former than the latter.

Unfortunately, Tadeshi you don't need to believe in the Chaos powers for them to exist. If so, they would be very weak indeed. Most people don't even know about them. They are fed by the emotions of races created by the Old Ones. You can't kill them with Athiesm.

KamikazeCanuck wrote:Unfortunately, Tadeshi you don't need to believe in the Chaos powers for them to exist. If so, they would be very weak indeed. Most people don't even know about them. They are fed by the emotions of races created by the Old Ones. You can't kill them with Athiesm.

It might have...the Emperor was supposedly laying waste to entire areas of the Warp...what if the Powers just twisted it into the Emperor as opposed to the Imperial Truth turning large areas of the Warp into stagnant planes...nothing wrong with that IMO.

No, it wouldn't.

Where exactly are you getting that from?

Melissia wrote:No, it wouldn't.

Where exactly are you getting that from?

Horus 'vision', where the Powers were supposedly the victims of the Emperor's psychic might laying waste entire planes of reality in the Warp...more than likely, the Warp was being laid waste, but instead of the Emperor, by the Imperial Truth.

Ah, so basically you're going by the lies that Horus was being told in order to convince him to betray the Emperor.

The Imperial Truth was in effect for quite a while and if it worked like that it would have killed Chaos but it doesn't. What worship of the ruinous powers does (and even thinking about them or speaking their name) is draw their attention. By drawing the attentions of the dark gods and daemons you can get up to all kinds of evil tomfoolery like possessions and warp rifts. That was basically the kind of stuff The Emperor was trying to prevent by keeping humanity in the dark about the true nature of the warp. But it backfired big time.
Point is the big four would like your worship but they don't require it to exist.

Melissia wrote:Ah, so basically you're going by the lies that Horus was being told in order to convince him to betray the Emperor.

Not outright lies, as it turned out. Daemons do tell the truth, albeit a twisted form...instead of the Imperial Truth calming the Warp, they simply twisted it into the Emperor ravaging it.

Tadashi wrote:

Melissia wrote:No, it wouldn't.

Where exactly are you getting that from?

Horus 'vision', where the Powers were supposedly the victims of the Emperor's psychic might laying waste entire planes of reality in the Warp...more than likely, the Warp was being laid waste, but instead of the Emperor, by the Imperial Truth.

From their point of view, which is laced with lies and falsehood, yeah.

I don't think that what you are suggesting would be the case, the Dark Gods were more than likely pissed off and scared about what would happen to them if the galaxy was conquered by the Emperor. A boring eternal existence of each others company without mortal play things to entertain them.

KamikazeCanuck wrote:
Point is the big four would like your worship but they don't require it to exist.

Yeah, this, they also require worship to make them stronger but they would continue to exist even if it were removed.

Pilau Rice wrote:

I don't think that what you are suggesting would be the case, the Dark Gods were more than likely pissed off and scared about what would happen to them if the galaxy was conquered by the Emperor. A boring eternal existence of wach others company without mortal play things to entertain them.

That's certainly possible...they wouldn't cease to exist, but they couldn't influence mortals either because mortals refuse to believe in their existence.

Tadashi wrote:

Pilau Rice wrote:

I don't think that what you are suggesting would be the case, the Dark Gods were more than likely pissed off and scared about what would happen to them if the galaxy was conquered by the Emperor. A boring eternal existence of each others company without mortal play things to entertain them.

That's certainly possible...they wouldn't cease to exist, but they couldn't influence mortals either because mortals refuse to believe in their existence.

They still could, just via the dreams of mortals, which is they how they did this when they were forming.

Honestly, you could never stop some form of intervention by the Dark Gods.

Hey, one thing I want to ask is this, this quote is from False Gods, is it an official symbol regards to the Imperial Cult?

At the top was some kind of symbol, a long capital T with a haloed star at its centre - p63

Pilau Rice wrote:

They still could, just via the dreams of mortals, which is they how they did this when they were forming.

Honestly, you could never stop some form of intervention by the Dark Gods.

Yes, but with the Imperial Truth, people would just dismiss it as dreams...and if everyone were fully-realized psykers, they probably could filter it out passively.

Hey, one thing I want to ask is this, this quote is from False Gods, is it an official symbol regards to the Imperial Cult?

At the top was some kind of symbol, a long capital T with a haloed star at its centre - p63

That can't be right...this is the emblem of the Ministorum:

Tadashi wrote:
Yes, but with the Imperial Truth, people would just dismiss it as dreams...and if everyone were fully-realized psykers, they probably could filter it out at will.

Did it work though, the Imperial Truth? They might be able to dismiss it as dreams but the seeds would have been planted, as Verbal says

The greatest trick the devil ever pulled was convincing the world he did not exist

In 40k there are 4.

Tadashi wrote:

pilau rice wrote:
Hey, one thing I want to ask is this, this quote is from False Gods, is it an official symbol regards to the Imperial Cult?

At the top was some kind of symbol, a long capital T with a haloed star at its centre - p63

That can't be right...this is the emblem of the Ministorum:

That's what I thought..

Pilau Rice wrote:

Tadashi wrote:
Yes, but with the Imperial Truth, people would just dismiss it as dreams...and if everyone were fully-realized psykers, they probably could filter it out at will.

Did it work though, the Imperial Truth? They might be able to dismiss it as dreams but the seeds would have been planted, as Verbal says

In the long term, it would have...

Tadashi wrote:

pilau rice wrote:
Hey, one thing I want to ask is this, this quote is from False Gods, is it an official symbol regards to the Imperial Cult?

At the top was some kind of symbol, a long capital T with a haloed star at its centre - p63

That can't be right...this is the emblem of the Ministorum:

That's what I thought..

You said letter T with a haloed star...that's a letter I with a haloed skull.

Tadashi wrote:

You said letter T with a haloed star...that's a letter I with a haloed skull.

I was agreeing with you, I can clearly see that the image shows an I.

Oh...I see. My apologies.

Tadashi wrote:Yes, but with the Imperial Truth, people would just dismiss it as dreams...

And that would change what, exactly?

Daemons would always be able to manifest in the physical world regardless of whether people "believe" in them or not. And daemons just influencing dreams would rarely have them appear "in person" to propose some kind of deal (as that would be a bit too obvious, wouldn't you think?) but rather planting ideas and wishes to make people want something and act in a way that fits to their plans. The "Ineception"-effect, if you will. Which is, again, completely independent of some sort of belief.

Tadashi wrote:and if everyone were fully-realized psykers, they probably could filter it out passively.

Except that psykers, due to their connection to the Warp, are especially vulnerable to being overpowered. And how would you even learn to "filter" something that you don't believe in, how would you prepare for a danger you're not aware of?

I think you're trying to justify this idea of a supposed "Imperial Truth" to be something that it wasn't meant to be.
Since I did not read those particular novels, however, I can only guess from the snippets of it that I've heard on the interwebs.

I reread the page last night and it most certainly says I, I guess the source I initially used was incorrect.

So, nice one Lorgar, the founder of the Imperial Cult

Pilau Rice wrote:I reread the page last night and it most certainly says I, I guess the source I initially used was incorrect.

So, nice one Lorgar, the founder of the Imperial Cult

All we need now is to let the Ecclesiarchy know their faith was built by one of the greatest traitors in Imperial history, and I can sit back, drink some tea, and watch as the Imperial Church burns...oh, and did I mention their leaders already knew and were just keeping it quiet...*whispers*the Vault of Origins*whispers*...sits back and drinks some more tea.

Pilau Rice wrote:So, nice one Lorgar, the founder of the Imperial Cult

The founder of the Imperial Cult, back then known as the Temple of the Saviour Emperor, was Fatidicus.

Lynata wrote:

Pilau Rice wrote:So, nice one Lorgar, the founder of the Imperial Cult

The founder of the Imperial Cult, back then known as the Temple of the Saviour Emperor, was Fatidicus.

Problem is...2nd Edition might have been retconned by the Horus Heresy novels' Lectitio Divinitatus.

Tadashi wrote:Problem is...2nd Edition might have been retconned by the Horus Heresy novels' Lectitio Divinitatus.

I don't see the problem.
For starters, Black Library novels do not retcon anything. Actually, we don't even have a real continuity in this franchise to start with that could be changed retroactively.

I certainly see the possibility, but for the time being - and aside from the proposed link not even being established in the novels themselves yet, and as such being pure speculation on your part - this, like many other ideas introduced by the HH products (like the SoS), remain suspiciously absent from studio material. Religions do not require a singular origin to exist, and even in 40k there were many different cults popping up all over the Imperium after the Emperor's death, only later united under the mantle of the Ecclesiarchy, hinting at an independent development rooted in the desires of the human psyche.

Lynata wrote: The founder of the Imperial Cult, back then known as the Temple of the Saviour Emperor, was Fatidicus.

Was he now

Sounds like a lucky guy