At my local store we have a decent number of players prolly close to 15 regulars but most can't afford to go shell out big $$$ to add multiple flyers to their lists I have 3 storm ravens an three vendettas an if I were to run all six I would shred most of their armies.I won't run all 6 because I don't wanna be tfg, but I could. Air power is just to damn strong.
Flyers aren't broken. If you're killing your local competition it's because none of them are capable enough at list building. That's not saying they're not good, but if you're running a 6 flyer list, there are certainly ways of bringing them down.
All six is a lot of points to put into your fliers, which are not on the table during turn 1, and not too helpful in capture/control scenarios if there is any cover. Likewise, if they try to drop off troops, then they'll be blown up right away.
Fliers have not broken the game. Now maybe let's hopefully end this thread quickly before it becomes yet another sky-is-falling rant.
For Now I have to agree with that statement, not many teams are well equipped to deal with the air menace that is 6th edition. However, i'm hoping with new codex/faqs/white dwarf updates they start adding some more units with skyfire that should balance the game out a bit.
In the meantime (for fun), me and the guys I play with are deciding to set up some turrets that will be scattered places on the board that have skyfire which should make some things interesting for the flyer units. Just an idea we had!
My DE and Orks could both use the target practice..
Actually it's not so much that flyers in general have broken the game as those two specific flyers are cheaper and more potent than they have a right to be, especially since only the IG are allowed to squadron flyers for some reason?
Run non-IOM flyers and they aren't gamebreaking at all... you know, the ones that aren't OP/UC as crap and with extra bells and whistles
I have had. so many destroy my fliers,
I had necrons mass fire it to death.
I have had a reddemer template it.
I have had Kantor punch it to death.
Point being, on a 4x6 fliers will either be forced to go into hover or off the bored(something no one wants)
On top of what everybody else has said, the OP statement doesn't even make sense with an internally-cohesive look at the rules themselves.
Most missions are won by holding objectives. Can fliers hold objectives? No. Can fliers contest objectives? No. Can fliers deliver scoring units to objectives? Only a few of them can, and they have to hover to do it (which means instant death), and can only deliver flimsy troops choices (like guardsmen or guardians) that are basically burned up in a huge fireball if you get a lucky shot against their flier.
Expand scope a bit and you see something that's not showing up until turn 2 or 3, and has serious mobility restrictions (must move at least 18", may only turn 90 degrees, etc.). Fliers really are only good against a couple of things. If you're really having such problems against them, then don't take those few things fliers are explicitly good against.
hotsauceman1 wrote:I have had. so many destroy my fliers, I have had a reddemer template it. I have had Kantor punch it to death.
Your model that can't be hit by template weapons or assaulted was destroyed by a template weapon and in an assault?
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Ailaros wrote:On top of what everybody else has said, the OP statement doesn't even make sense with an internally-cohesive look at the rules themselves.
Most missions are won by holding objectives. Can fliers hold objectives? No. Can fliers contest objectives? No. Can fliers deliver scoring units to objectives? Only a few of them can, and they have to hover to do it (which means instant death), and can only deliver flimsy troops choices (like guardsmen or guardians) that are basically burned up in a huge fireball if you get a lucky shot against their flier.
Expand scope a bit and you see something that's not showing up until turn 2 or 3, and has serious mobility restrictions (must move at least 18", may only turn 90 degrees, etc.). Fliers really are only good against a couple of things. If you're really having such problems against them, then don't take those few things fliers are explicitly good against.
Hey! Go take your logic elsewhere! Can't you see the sky is falling here
Jihallah wrote:"why the did you hover your flyer in front of pedro kantor?"
Fell victim to the old "Up high!" trick.
Gets them every time...
Crimson-King2120 wrote:Valks can use grav chute insertion to deliver troops without entering hover mode granted it is really unreliable
Right, it can drop off 10 flimsy guardsmen (that better not scatter into terrain), which will be easily destroyed in the next turn of shooting/assaulting.
Jihallah wrote:Hey! Go take your logic elsewhere! Can't you see the sky is falling here
Actually, it's not pieces of the sky that's falling, it's fliers! Fliers everywhere!
As it stands some fliers are undercosted (Vendetta, Night/Doom Scythes) and some are underpowered (Razorwings don't get Vector Dancer? Really????)
As always with GW it is not a fault of the core rules, it is a fault of the Codices. Hopefully as 6th edition Codices drop fliers will be rebalanced with changes to points cost, abilities and ground based AA that will make them fit into the game better (to be replaced of course by the next piece of cheese that the design team has overlooked in their 'playtesting process' to stinkily fester in the corner of the gaming halls ).
"This new thing noone is bothering to prepare for has broken my perfect game! Why would GW CHANGE things in their new edition?! Heresy!"
Nah; just like glance-wrecking, Allies, precision strikes, and challenges, flyers are just another new element to the game. You can adapt to the changes, just ask Ailaros and his retired PW Sergeants, or you can stagnate in 5th. If you steamroll someone using flyers, it's not your fault for cheese; it's their fault for using a 5th edition-ready list. Point them the direction of some Broadsides or an Aegis and shake his hand post-game.
Meanwhile I run aircav and am undefeated in 6th...maybe the above is just what I tell myself when players run sobbing, mumbling "cheese"...
No, certainly not. Some battle reports have already shown that too many flyers can cost you the game, since then the army will lack flesh - troops for holding objectives.
In the future, we will see more air-defense. Then flyers may become one-hit wonders.
Squadroned flyers also plumet out of the sky for Nids. I've wiped out an entire valk squadron in one turn. The Tk power Obscurum Mechanicum let's you hit every vehicle in a squadron with a haywire attack that glaces on a 2+. Just need a list with at least 6 psykers to get it 3-4 times.
Good thing most Nid lists have at least 6 as a minimum. Our max is something like 17 per FoC.
Eldar and wolves suck play against though. But they don't have flyers.
Flyers aren't broken. If you're killing your local competition it's because none of them are capable enough at list building. That's not saying they're not good, but if you're running a 6 flyer list, there are certainly ways of bringing them down.
This response is gonna be long. Build me a list that can beat three vendettas an three storm ravens with no flyers an a fortification.
Flyers aren't broken. If you're killing your local competition it's because none of them are capable enough at list building. That's not saying they're not good, but if you're running a 6 flyer list, there are certainly ways of bringing them down.
This response is gonna be long. Build me a list that can beat three vendettas an three storm ravens with no flyers an a fortification.
IG list with 9 Hydras and a Fortification with a quadgun. Does this sound silly? So is your challenge.
Flyers aren't broken. If you're killing your local competition it's because none of them are capable enough at list building. That's not saying they're not good, but if you're running a 6 flyer list, there are certainly ways of bringing them down.
This response is gonna be long. Build me a list that can beat three vendettas an three storm ravens with no flyers an a fortification.
How many points, and are fortifications allowed or not? Anyway, as many Anni barges and tesla carbines that I can fit into a list.
azazel the cat wrote:All six is a lot of points to put into your fliers, which are not on the table during turn 1, and not too helpful in capture/control scenarios if there is any cover. Likewise, if they try to drop off troops, then they'll be blown up right away.
Fliers have not broken the game. Now maybe let's hopefully end this thread quickly before it becomes yet another sky-is-falling rant.
After 2 rounds of 9 TL lascannon shots, 3 TL multi melta shots an 9 shots from an assault cannon/ or plasma cannon or more TL lascannon shots how exactly are they supposed to kill all your flyers.
what else are you going to bring besides all those fliers. Thats the weak point of a list like that. a balanced list with enough weight of fire to throw your way will eventually roll those 6s and don't forget skyfire nexus as an objective...sucks to be bringing 6 fliers only to be one rounded by something holding an objective .
Flyers aren't broken. If you're killing your local competition it's because none of them are capable enough at list building. That's not saying they're not good, but if you're running a 6 flyer list, there are certainly ways of bringing them down.
This response is gonna be long. Build me a list that can beat three vendettas an three storm ravens with no flyers an a fortification.
IG list with 9 Hydras and a Fortification with a quadgun. Does this sound silly? So is your challenge.
Should have been been more specific if you have the money to buy 9 hydras why in the hell would you not just have your own flyers, same!with spamming necrons.
Look at my op, I specifically mentioned the store where I game its not the world series of warhammer 40k, there are many like it out there. Going to wait until I am at a PC. I can't respond adequately on this damn phone.
Flyers aren't broken. If you're killing your local competition it's because none of them are capable enough at list building. That's not saying they're not good, but if you're running a 6 flyer list, there are certainly ways of bringing them down.
This response is gonna be long. Build me a list that can beat three vendettas an three storm ravens with no flyers an a fortification.
Why would I not use flyers or fortifications?
As people have pointed out, 6 flyers is an awful list to actually win missions. Like with everyone else who think they "broke the game" I'd suggest you take your list to a GT and see how it does.
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valace2 wrote:
AlmightyWalrus wrote:
valace2 wrote:
Stoffer wrote:I hate threads like these so much.
Flyers aren't broken. If you're killing your local competition it's because none of them are capable enough at list building. That's not saying they're not good, but if you're running a 6 flyer list, there are certainly ways of bringing them down.
This response is gonna be long. Build me a list that can beat three vendettas an three storm ravens with no flyers an a fortification.
IG list with 9 Hydras and a Fortification with a quadgun. Does this sound silly? So is your challenge.
Should have been been more specific if you have the money to buy 9 hydras why in the hell would you not just have your own flyers, same!with spamming necrons.
Look at my op, I specifically mentioned the store where I game its not the world series of warhammer 40k, there are many like it out there. Going to wait until I am at a PC. I can't respond adequately on this damn phone.
If the issue is that the people you play with can't afford anti air models, isn't the issue more money than flyers being broken?!?!
6 vendettas at 2,000 points is 780 points. I'd like to know how people think deamons/nids/chaos can cope with that Flyers are broken, but most people in friendly games won't use more than one or two. Don't play against dicks.
hotsauceman1 wrote:Fortifications, Nuff said. Also don whine, we are a month in. No new codex releases. We will see more models with skyfire from now on.
Agreed, a couple quad guns would make quick work of those, same with a bunch of lootas and mass shooting
I'm having a tough time with flyers myself.
Played a game last night agaisnt my mate, Im using Nids, he was using Necrons.
Turn 2 sees 2 Night Sythes show up, zooming around the board.
I was pretty busy dealing with Telsa platforms and various other stuff, tried to shoot one and didnt scratch it.
Turn 4 they fly off the board
Turn 5 they zoom back onto the board and drop off troops with telport onto objectives.
I was pretty out of units at this point and nothing I could of really done leading up to the drop of troops on objectives.
hotsauceman1 wrote:Fortifications, Nuff said.
Also don whine, we are a month in. No new codex releases. We will see more models with skyfire from now on.
Agreed, a couple quad guns would make quick work of those, same with a bunch of lootas and mass shooting
I love it when people say things like this.
1)you can have one quad gun at <2000 points, the overwealming majority of games
2)S7 vs AV12, even assuming they all hit, has a 50% of a penetrating hit, at AP4. So on average you'll get one or two hull points
valace2 wrote:At my local store we have a decent number of players prolly close to 15 regulars but most can't afford to go shell out big $$$ to add multiple flyers to their lists I have 3 storm ravens an three vendettas an if I were to run all six I would shred most of their armies.I won't run all 6 because I don't wanna be tfg, but I could. Air power is just to damn strong.
1. So players can afford things like Land Raiders/Monoliths but not fliers? Fail to see how. Also, the Necron fliers and new Stormtalon etc, are only a few quid more than a Rhino and less than a Predator. That argument doesn't hold much water i'm afraid.
I can sympathise with people not wanting to spend money on units they don't like because they're being made to think that they need to buy them to have any chance of winning a game; that is false and shame on you and people like you for perpetuating myths like that.
2. The only way I can think of to run all six would be a Marine list with Stormravens in HS/Dedicated and then a squad of three Vendetta's as allies... that's about 1000 points of fliers, plus the mandatory two HQ's and three troops (minimum of what, another 350-400 points). Good luck in any games that aren't killpoints...
Is your 3 Vendetta/3 Stormraven list going to be broken when you play against regular folks at your FLGS? Yes. It's like bringing a knife to a gunfight. This isn't new, and is no different than someone in 5e bringing a tweaked-out BA Razorspam list against his friend's fluffy IG company. Tone down your list for your local environment, unless you like being TFG.
Is it broken in any objective sense? Only in that access to skyfire is still limited for most people. This list will struggle against any currently competitive list, the Tyranid psyker spam list for example would make very short work of it.
valace2 wrote:At my local store we have a decent number of players prolly close to 15 regulars but most can't afford to go shell out big $$$ to add multiple flyers to their lists I have 3 storm ravens an three vendettas an if I were to run all six I would shred most of their armies.I won't run all 6 because I don't wanna be tfg, but I could. Air power is just to damn strong.
1. So players can afford things like Land Raiders/Monoliths but not fliers? Fail to see how. Also, the Necron fliers and new Stormtalon etc, are only a few quid more than a Rhino and less than a Predator. That argument doesn't hold much water i'm afraid.
I can sympathise with people not wanting to spend money on units they don't like because they're being made to think that they need to buy them to have any chance of winning a game; that is false and shame on you and people like you for perpetuating myths like that.
2. The only way I can think of to run all six would be a Marine list with Stormravens in HS/Dedicated and then a squad of three Vendetta's as allies... that's about 1000 points of fliers, plus the mandatory two HQ's and three troops (minimum of what, another 350-400 points). Good luck in any games that aren't killpoints...
3. It's not called air POWAH for nothing.
How many lists have you seen with multiple land raiders in them? An yea the storm tallon is a cheaper flyer good thing for 20pts my basic grey Knights can kill it. An oh yea GW raised the price on the raven to over 70i believe.
Flyers aren't broken. If you're killing your local competition it's because none of them are capable enough at list building. That's not saying they're not good, but if you're running a 6 flyer list, there are certainly ways of bringing them down.
This response is gonna be long. Build me a list that can beat three vendettas an three storm ravens with no flyers an a fortification.
The trouble with flyer spam is the lack of board control and damage output againt infantry (to prevent board control). The best example of a list to take advantage of this weakness (without taking the obviuos counters) would be the green tide. Swarm the board, spread out to limit the already restricted movement of flyers and camp objectives. This type of list often has many lootas which are also good AA. The Vendettas 9 lascannons probably only get to fire 3 times in a game and will be tottaly inefectual against massed infantry.
A squadron of 3 vendettas is not good because;
-9 twinlinked lascannons sounds great but they will usually only get 3 turns on the board to shoot.
-They all have to shoot the same thing- you will massively overkill 3 tanks in a game. Against many armies that is pointless.
-They have to maintain coherency and follow the flyer rules- you need to find an area of board 18-36" away, within your 90 degree pivot, with enogh space to fit 3 fling bases and that gets you shots on something worth putting 9 twin- linked lasccanons into. Your opponent also has to be completley unaware of these restrictions or not have the gumption to take advantage of them.
-If you do come up againt something like 45 Lootas, 3 Anni barges or other flyers there is a risk of your 3 Flyers and embarked squads being decimated in one go.
Pro tip- Dont announce that the game is broken before even playing a game with the supposedly broken list.
How many lists have you seen with multiple land raiders in them? An yea the storm tallon is a cheaper flyer good thing for 20pts my basic grey Knights can kill it. An oh yea GW raised the price on the raven to over 70i believe.
I've seen more multiple Land Raider lists than I have multiple flyer lists...
Right. Your basic Grey Knights can kill an AV11 flier... what was the point of this thread again? Flyers broken omg omg omg.
So? My Necron Warriors, who by the way are basically the red shirts of the necrons, can kill just about any vehicle given enough time.
I fail to see what your point is.
I hate replies like yours so much. (see how easy that is?)
Did you notice the OP commenting on the $$ cost of buying new flyers or anti-flyers?
It's amusing that GW makes the models that cost the most much better, and some people will just jump lockstep to purchase them.
I guess someone that already has good anti-flyer units in their codex won't mind the change. But the ones that don't, don't have the right to complain about being left in the cold?
The problem will be balanced out when new codices come out? Have none of the people that say that never complained because GW is so slow putting out new codices? Hello! I guess the problem will be solved 10 years from now? (but by then it will be called warhammer 40k fantasy 7th edition. who wouldn't love hydras in space?)
And for what it's worth, I think "swoopers" may be even more of a problem than flyers.
valace2 wrote:At my local store we have a decent number of players prolly close to 15 regulars but most can't afford to go shell out big $$$ to add multiple flyers to their lists I have 3 storm ravens an three vendettas an if I were to run all six I would shred most of their armies.I won't run all 6 because I don't wanna be tfg, but I could. Air power is just to damn strong.
In Internet slang, a troll is someone who posts inflammatory, extraneous, or off-topic messages in an online community, such as an online discussion forum, chat room, or blog, with the primary intent of provoking readers into an emotional response http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Troll_(Internet)
valace2 wrote:Build me a list that can beat three vendettas an three storm ravens with no flyers an a fortification.
Cannot....resist.....
1) You must either be a BA player or GK player with IG allies. If you go absolute bare bones with nothing else, your at 1405 points. That would be 10 marines, 1 librarian, 1 tech-priest, and 1 naked vet squad. Since you have to start with 2 of those squads on the board, realistically your going to be at a minimum of 1500 points.
Now, to make a list that will clobber that 6 flyer list into the ground....
HQ Warboss in Mega-Armor
Warboss in Mega-Armor
Troops 30 shoota boys w/3 rokkit launchers + PK nob
30 shoota boys w/3 rokkit launchers + PK nob
30 shoota boys w/3 rokkit launchers + PK nob
30 shoota boys w/3 rokkit launchers + PK nob
Elites 5 Lootas
5 Lootas
5 Lootas
Fast Attack Deffkopta w/TL Rokkits
Deffkopta w/TL Rokkits
The basic strategy is frighteningly simple
* Walk up to your 11 models on the board and kill them. 11 models < 139 orks
* Flyers cannot tank shock. Flyers cannot stop over enemy models. Spread out the remaining orks so the flyers must zoom off the board.
* If you drop the 10 vets from the valk, they will get eaten up by orks.
This results in the following
* Your flyers all zoom off the board. All the models on the board are dead -- you lose the game
* Your flyers kill 6 orks a turn. Good job!
* Your flyers get shot down by lootas/rokkits
* Your flyers cannot grab objectives. You lose 5/6 of the missions off the bat. Good luck grabbing objectives with 22 models, half of which are naked IG.
valace2 wrote:At my local store we have a decent number of players prolly close to 15 regulars but most can't afford to go shell out big $$$ to add multiple flyers to their lists I have 3 storm ravens an three vendettas an if I were to run all six I would shred most of their armies.I won't run all 6 because I don't wanna be tfg, but I could. Air power is just to damn strong.
In Internet slang, a troll is someone who posts inflammatory, extraneous, or off-topic messages in an online community, such as an online discussion forum, chat room, or blog, with the primary intent of provoking readers into an emotional response http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Troll_(Internet)
It seems to me that your reply more qualifies as a troll.
The OP created a thread in the Tactics section proposing that flyers are overly powerful, thus asking for debate. And you post a reply with a definition of trolling, without adding anything to the discussion? Are you certain you are in the right thread?
Someone said you can Grav Chute your troops without entering hover mode. I do not think its possible. Grav chute lets you deploy from valkyrie while moving flat out. But it does not let you deploy when making Zoom. If you zoom, you can not deploy, grav chute makes no exception.
Ok, my OP is not entirely accurate, because you can build a list that would destroy massed flyers, but are you really going to field multiple(at least 2-3) hydras in a tournament knowing that they can not hit ground targets?
How can a person running Tau for instance go to a tournament an expect to do well? They have no anti air, they can take a fortification, but what do you think will be targeted first? Then the railguns an then the missile crisis teams, now I know tau are not a good example, but take Eldar what anti air do they have an those bright lances are the first thing to go. now Tau an Eldar can take allies but what are you going to get maybe 1 flyer to help in the air?
In your local tournament scene how many of the people that you game with are not hard core gamers an still go to tournaments. Can they expect to do well maybe only fielding one flyer?
You all also seem to be harping on Vendettas which have severe limitations because the only way to take them in bulk is with squadrons, so take IG as your primary an Crons as your allied you can have 3 independent vendettas an the 3 independent Cron flyers one of which is a doomscythe.
Also I seriously don't understand this aversion to going into hover mode, I really dont. Are you going to go into hover mode within 14-15 inches of a hammer cc unit? Of course you aren't because you are not an idiot. You fly on 2nd turn an Grey Knights for 55 points can make that happen, zoom in on the most serious threat to your flyers(anything with multiple shots strength 8 or higher) an after going to hover mode you get a 2nd round of shooting from those same planes,then you get to offload purifiers or terminators or even basic troops, with tiny benchmen units you can make that happen.
As for board control 3 vendettas in a squadron are going to wreck a tank, but those 3 gunboat storm ravens (they cost a bit more but can pump out 19 TL shots all at least at str5) are going chew up hordes, an yes those lootaz will be the first to go. You are not always going to know who you are fighting, but if your local scene has hordes plan to go with the gunboat.
My point about the Storm Tallon was that yes it is a cheap $$$ wise flyer but against other flyers or even small arms fire from the ground thanks to the new hull point rule. You can buy 2 storm tallons for every one storm raven an unless you can catch the raven in an awkward position you will need both of those tallons to finish the raven. It is cost prohibitive for most gamers who have been playing the game for awhile to go an shell out an extra $150 to pick up a couple of flyers an then even more fortifications.
So my apologies, flyers have not broken the game because they can be beat, but until GW gets off their ass an gets more skyfire into the game, they are most definitely Very OP.
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Phanatik wrote:
labmouse42 wrote:
valace2 wrote:At my local store we have a decent number of players prolly close to 15 regulars but most can't afford to go shell out big $$$ to add multiple flyers to their lists I have 3 storm ravens an three vendettas an if I were to run all six I would shred most of their armies.I won't run all 6 because I don't wanna be tfg, but I could. Air power is just to damn strong.
In Internet slang, a troll is someone who posts inflammatory, extraneous, or off-topic messages in an online community, such as an online discussion forum, chat room, or blog, with the primary intent of provoking readers into an emotional response http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Troll_(Internet)
It seems to me that your reply more qualifies as a troll.
The OP created a thread in the Tactics section proposing that flyers are overly powerful, thus asking for debate. And you post a reply with a definition of trolling, without adding anything to the discussion? Are you certain you are in the right thread?
Have a nice day!
Most people don't want to debate it, they will call me a troll and say that they hate these threads, when in reality flyers have broken the game for many players.
The net lists from 5th were hard but the average player with good dice rolls could at least compete, now that player has to go shell out another couple hundred bucks to try an keep up.
Automatically Appended Next Post: An for the record I love flyers, I just dont like feeling like TFG after crushing a player using my Storm Ravens while he has no flyers. The look on his face after trying to hit them makes me feel like a d*ck
As labmouse just demonstrated, it is entirely possible to deal with these flyer conundrums.
All these cries of "flyers are broken" is just adorable.
The real issue is that, with the new rules, some people have and some people haven't adjusted everything, so when you play someone who has adjusted (and is fielding a few flyers) against someone who hasn't adjusted (and has nothing effective anti-air) it will show a large margin of effectiveness between lists. Like I said in my largely ignored previous post, it is entirely not the fault of the Airborne player. Whoever is claiming flyers are broken, or anyone that fields them is TFG is just stuck in 5th and has some changes to make in their list.
It's just exhausting hearing how every new rule has "broken the game" because our lists and us players ourselves aren't yet fully used to them.
Flyers are powerful, granted, especially if your opponent is not prepared to deal with them or is otherwise ignorant of this fact. They haven't 'broken' anything and even if they have, the game's been released for what, a month? Can't you wait a bit longer before spilling delicious tears over the internet? Wait until a few larger tournaments have come and gone and at least one 6th edition codex has been released, then you'll get more of a reasoned discussion that just "no", "sky falling", "buy aegis" etc.
If you don't want to be TFG you know... don't use your flyers?
Or failing that, tell your opponent you want to use it/them and recommend they prepare accordingly... or allow them to buy Flakk missiles for a nominal points cost. There are ways round it so you don't come off as a jerk...
Could you specify which "many players" flyers have broken the game for?
Anyone regularly facing flyer spam they cant deal with?
So far i have only seen people theorizing about lists they dont like the sound of.
If you turn up to a random shop with well designed flyer spam you might bash your opponent in the same way you would have done with paladin or nob biker spam when those were the "broken" builds.
Testify wrote:6 vendettas at 2,000 points is 780 points. I'd like to know how people think deamons/nids/chaos can cope with that Flyers are broken, but most people in friendly games won't use more than one or two. Don't play against dicks.
Vendettas are broken, just like they were in 5th because, Shocker, their point cost hasn't been raised. Flyers in general are fine.
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Chimera_Calvin wrote:<sigh> Fliers have not broken the game
As it stands some fliers are undercosted (Vendetta, Night/Doom Scythes) and some are underpowered (Razorwings don't get Vector Dancer? Really????)
As always with GW it is not a fault of the core rules, it is a fault of the Codices. Hopefully as 6th edition Codices drop fliers will be rebalanced with changes to points cost, abilities and ground based AA that will make them fit into the game better (to be replaced of course by the next piece of cheese that the design team has overlooked in their 'playtesting process' to stinkily fester in the corner of the gaming halls ).
Razorwings are decidely meh. OK but taking 3 of them would hurt your army more than it helps.
Flyers are powerful...that can't really be ignored, but no army is "defensless" against them. Either they have flying MCs (nids) or can ally with armies that do have flyers. I honestly cannot think of one that cannot do so. Plus you have a fortification. I'll take tellion w/ an intercepting LC in terrain that has been fortified! Good luck taking it out now! Especially with the scouts in front of it. Even then massed firepower will bring them down. If you are running that many flyers you cannot be bringing that much else mech wise so my scourges w/ haywireblasters and wyches w/ haywire grenades will have easy target priority. Any infantry you drop off will meet their doom w/ venoms. Necron flyer spam is annoying but again objective wise you still have to get out which means I have a relatively good idea of where it will happen and can plan for it.
valace2 wrote:
How can a person running Tau for instance go to a tournament an expect to do well? They have no anti air, they can take a fortification, but what do you think will be targeted first? Then the railguns an then the missile crisis teams, now I know tau are not a good example, but take Eldar what anti air do they have an those bright lances are the first thing to go. now Tau an Eldar can take allies but what are you going to get maybe 1 flyer to help in the air?
Tau, Eldar, and DE(lesser extent) have all been gimped in more serious ways than just the addition of fliers. Until GW comes up with a serious FAQ or a new Codex for Xenos(Orks are fine though) they wont be competitive in a tournament. The new 6th edition rules were built around marine armies, making sure not to buff or gimp them too much. IG are fine in the shooting eviroment. Newcrons were created with 6th in mind. Orks are resilient as always.
Phanatik wrote:The OP created a thread in the Tactics section proposing that flyers are overly powerful, thus asking for debate. And you post a reply with a definition of trolling, without adding anything to the discussion? Are you certain you are in the right thread?
Yes I did. Perhaps its an difference of generation, but this does not seem like a reasonable request for a debate.
At my local store we have a decent number of players prolly close to 15 regulars but most can't afford to go shell out big $$$ to add multiple flyers to their lists I have 3 storm ravens an three vendettas an if I were to run all six I would shred most of their armies. I won't run all 6 because I don't wanna be tfg, but I could. Air power is just to damn strong.
The basis for the OPs argument is that they would shred most of their armies. Such a statement is one designed to generate an emotional response, ie trolling.
If the OP were trying to start a legitimate discussion, they could have said something like this.
- We have a moderate sized store
- Most people can't buy $150 of models to be competitive, and are falling behind
- I have found flyers to be OP, and will not spam them, for the following reasons.
...Not enough units can hit them
...They can target nearly anything with little or no fear of cover saves
...Spamming them can be very difficult for opponents to deal with
Do you find the same thing? Are flyers overly hard to counter right now? What counters are around, if any..
They arn't impossable to hit. They are still hit with shooting on 6s. Twin-linked high volume fire will still hit them reliably.
"I can't assault them, boo-hoo!" In 5th, how often could actually catch a Stormraven or Vendetta squadron in melee? They could flat out away from you at will pretty much. The Stormraven was also usually dropping off a scary melee unit, at which point the Stormraven was the least of your worries.
As always, play to the mission. Flyers are only scoring in 1/6 of missions(depending on the codex) and you can't score from inside a vehicle now. Flyer heavy lists will have insane difficulties winning objective missions.
Flyers are really best as a support unit. 1 or 2 that are used to take out key enemy units so the rest of the army can win. They won't win on their own.
Akroma06 wrote:Even then massed firepower will bring them down.
I've played a few games with my vendettas and against stormravens and I've learned the following
* A stormraven loaded up with a dread/assault unit is a fast way to lose ~750 points of models real fast.
* TL shots can take down flyers pretty well, they have ~30% of hitting per shot. Armies that can bring a lot of TL shots can do a lot of hard to flyers.
* While an quad-gun is not flyer-immunity, its does help. Its going to hit 8/9 of the shots when fired as BS 4, which will on average have at least 1 effect on AV 12. (glance or pen)
* Flyers can't shoot every turn. Most flyers come on the board on turn 2, get 2 shots off on turns 2-3, then zoom off the board on turn 4. On turn 5, they re-enter via ongoing reserves and get 2 more rounds of shooting. On turn 7, their going off the board again. A subsonic flyer will get ~4 turns of shots. A hover flyer can get more if they go into hover instead of zomming off the board to turn around, but then they are vulnerable to enemy fire/assault.
* Entering hover mode is often suicide for a flyer. I've seen it done on the end of turn 6 before and work (during big guns never tire)
Grey Templar wrote:Flyers are really best as a support unit. 1 or 2 that are used to take out key enemy units so the rest of the army can win. They won't win on their own.
This....
An army with 1-3 flyers will have a nice force multiplier to their army. Investing to many of your points into flyers will actually hurt more than help -- especially in missions geared for the NOVA format where flyers cannot contest or take objectives.
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Phanatik wrote:So, the temporary cure for codices that will have to wait years to catch up to the new meta is to field orks?
Perhaps my wife will have no problem with the new expense of purchasing 100+ models if I tell her they are "adorable."
That all depends on what army you play If you have the orks, run that.
Phanatik wrote:The OP created a thread in the Tactics section proposing that flyers are overly powerful, thus asking for debate. And you post a reply with a definition of trolling, without adding anything to the discussion? Are you certain you are in the right thread?
Yes I did. Perhaps its an difference of generation, but this does not seem like a reasonable request for a debate.
This is in all due respect, as I don't want to seem as if I'm attacking you, as I have nothing against you at all. I was just taken by the irony of it.
Who died and made you the arbiter of what's reasonable? Perhaps simply moving on would have been a contribution to the discussion.
Have a nice day!
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Grey Templar wrote:
Phanatik wrote:
TheCaptain wrote:As labmouse just demonstrated, it is entirely possible to deal with these flyer conundrums.
All these cries of "flyers are broken" is just adorable.
So, the temporary cure for codices that will have to wait years to catch up to the new meta is to field orks?
Perhaps my wife will have no problem with the new expense of purchasing 100+ models if I tell her they are "adorable."
Regards,
Whats her normal army?
All codices can make a list that can take on flyers.
My wife has never played 40k.
My only army is DE.
My comment was regarding the proposed temporary solution to massed flyers, i.e., massed orks.
Phanatik wrote:My wife has never played 40k.
My only army is DE.
My comment was regarding the proposed temporary solution to massed flyers, i.e., massed orks.
Your flaw in logic is thinking that orks are the only solution to flyers. Just because something is white, does not mean everything else is black.
DE have some strong solutions to flyers. Are you looking for solutions to how to deal with them?
If I was super stressed to deal with fliers, why not take the following:
ADL w/ quad gun or lascannon
Allies
Big Mek w/ KFF 10 grots
15 Lootas
At 2000 points, I take a 2nd ADL and a barebones Big Mek with no KFF (35 points?) and 15 more lootas.
Worst case, the grots man the guns to at least make them BS3 provided I don't have something better (say a chaos sorceror with warptime). That is 2 interceptor shots on the round you come in and 30-90 Loota shots as well. It may not be game breaking, but it is a temporary stop gap to deal with flyers.
This is not including any flyers I am taking that would have skyfire as well. There are plenty of ways to deal with flyers. More ways will come out once flyer sales have plateaued with GW. Do you really think they are going to nerf their new flying models now while they are selling?
Phanatik wrote:My wife has never played 40k.
My only army is DE.
My comment was regarding the proposed temporary solution to massed flyers, i.e., massed orks.
Your flaw in logic is thinking that orks are the only solution to flyers. Just because something is white, does not mean everything else is black.
DE have some strong solutions to flyers. Are you looking for solutions to how to deal with them?
Logic is "a go for orbit" this fine Friday morning.
I purchased two Jet Fighters months ago and have been using them, simply because the model was amazing. So there is that.
Last weekend I used fortifications etc, but it goes against my purist grain to use Imperial terrain with my DE. Artistic ideas for DE [fortifications] terrain welcome!
valace2 wrote:
How can a person running Tau for instance go to a tournament an expect to do well? They have no anti air, they can take a fortification, but what do you think will be targeted first? Then the railguns an then the missile crisis teams, now I know tau are not a good example, but take Eldar what anti air do they have an those bright lances are the first thing to go. now Tau an Eldar can take allies but what are you going to get maybe 1 flyer to help in the air?
Tau, Eldar, and DE(lesser extent) have all been gimped in more serious ways than just the addition of fliers. Until GW comes up with a serious FAQ or a new Codex for Xenos(Orks are fine though) they wont be competitive in a tournament. The new 6th edition rules were built around marine armies, making sure not to buff or gimp them too much. IG are fine in the shooting eviroment. Newcrons were created with 6th in mind. Orks are resilient as always.
I'm sorry. Have you fielded vendettas against broadsides behind an Aegis with a quad-gun? Oh no wait, that was me, and the TL Railguns performed quite fine, actually.
Anyone QQ'ing could also go to forgeworld. Their flyers are stellar, and most armies can field one (at least) of them.
Noone said this hobby was cheap, so that's hardly an argument either.
"I can't afford to buy an aegis line or anti-flyer units, so flyers are broken" sounds just about as ridiculous as "I can't afford more than 20 guardsmen so anything above the 250 point bracket is stupid and needs to be removed". Pay to play, friends.
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Phanatik wrote:
Logic is "a go for orbit" this fine Friday morning.
I purchased two Jet Fighters months ago and have been using them, simply because the model was amazing. So there is that.
Last weekend I used fortifications etc, but it goes against my purist grain to use Imperial terrain with my DE. Artistic ideas for DE [fortifications] terrain welcome!
Ciao,
Cover the aegis defense line in chains, pikes, and cadian corpses?
A local Eldar player made some eldar shield thingies to represent Aegis Defense lines.
Its basically 4 clear plastic rectangles washed with a blue wash for the long sections and 4 shield generators for the small sections(all roughly the same size as the Imperial Aegis defense line)
He also has a Eldar Weapons Platform thats been given 4 Shurican Catapults(arranged in a quad formation) to be his Quad Gun.
I take your 6 flyer list and raise you 12 hydra flak tanks. It costs me the same but gives me more targets then you can easily take out. And since all of your flyer are coming in piece meal and my flak tanks are in 6 different squads very few of your planes will survive more then one turn in contact with me. Add lots of terrain to protect my stuff and that's more or less game over.
Not too worried about flyers myself... I know, I'm a DE, I have skyfire options. But it's actually for the reasons many have mentioned.
Out of the 3 deployment types, 2 of them I could easily boost into the uncomfortable zone for zooming flyers by turn 2 usually. Sure they're tough to kill, but if they got nothing to shoot at, why should I care about them? Like others have said, if I wipe out your ground units; which would be a lot easier thanks to the abundance of flyers taking up all the points and slots; and your flyers are in reserve, then I win the game, congrats on those undamaged flyers though!
Why would anyone go into hover mode in dangerous situation? Because if they're on T3 against any in-your-face army with a worthy general who knows how to exploit the zooming limitations, that's the only way they'll get another turn of shooting.
Of course, I can't speak for gunline armies, but with the massive assault nerf? I say good news it is that gunline get some disadvantages in something!
I'm actually gonna put my jetfighter into the "will field you once in a while" pile, because of the zooming restrictions.
Phanatik wrote:Logic is "a go for orbit" this fine Friday morning.
I purchased two Jet Fighters months ago and have been using them, simply because the model was amazing. So there is that.
Last weekend I used fortifications etc, but it goes against my purist grain to use Imperial terrain with my DE. Artistic ideas for DE [fortifications] terrain welcome!
Understood. Some day's I don't feel like 'logic and critical thinking' debate as well.
So there are really two different ways you can do this.
You can either make a bastion that has been captured by DE to be used as a staging base. At which point just throw the nets and spikes over it to make it a bit more 'Dark Eldar' like.
Or if you want to go for broke, you could make a floating DE fortress kind of item. Use the bastion model. Make it floating like a monolith. Cut the top so its got spikes and edges, and use raider platorms for the top parapit. Its a lot more in-debth but would be very cool.
No joke and since the hydra is still twin linked and can shoot its hull mount at the ground just fine why not. Also since it can shoot at flying monsters it makes it one of the better options for taking down some really nasty stuff.
Still not sure how the meta will pan out. From what I am seeing balanced is the way to go. Everything has its counter in 6th. The problem is that if you go to specialized you run the risk of either winning big or losing big. There are flyers, tanks, MCs, FMCs, psykers, challanges, fortifications, deepstrikers, overwatch, snipers, allies, ect, ect, ect...
And this time there is no "Mech is King" type of archtype list that is good against everything. I think people are going to start covering thier bases and being much more defensive for at least the first year.
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White Ninja wrote:No joke and since the hydra is still twin linked and can shoot its hull mount at the ground just fine why not. Also since it can shoot at flying monsters it makes it one of the better options for taking down some really nasty stuff.
They hydra can't shoot stuff on the ground anymore. It is a skyfire weapon and doesn't have Intercepter. Snap shots only at non-flyers or skimmers.
Gloomfang wrote:
They hydra can't shoot stuff on the ground anymore. It is a skyfire weapon and doesn't have Intercepter. Snap shots only at non-flyers or skimmers.
Skyfire means the Hydra shoots at Flyers, flying MCs AND Skimmers with it's BS value. It can still shoot at anything else but only at BS 1.
Gloomfang wrote:
They hydra can't shoot stuff on the ground anymore. It is a skyfire weapon and doesn't have Intercepter. Snap shots only at non-flyers or skimmers.
Skyfire means the Hydra shoots at Flyers, flying MCs AND Skimmers with it's BS value. It can still shoot at anything else but only at BS 1.
Which means you STILL average more than 1 hit per turn, as it's twin-linked.
Gloomfang wrote:
They hydra can't shoot stuff on the ground anymore. It is a skyfire weapon and doesn't have Intercepter. Snap shots only at non-flyers or skimmers.
Skyfire means the Hydra shoots at Flyers, flying MCs AND Skimmers with it's BS value. It can still shoot at anything else but only at BS 1.
I meant can't shoot normally at stuff on the ground. Its why I said Snapshots only at non-flyers or skimmers.
Phanatik wrote:Logic is "a go for orbit" this fine Friday morning.
I purchased two Jet Fighters months ago and have been using them, simply because the model was amazing. So there is that.
Last weekend I used fortifications etc, but it goes against my purist grain to use Imperial terrain with my DE. Artistic ideas for DE [fortifications] terrain welcome!
Understood. Some day's I don't feel like 'logic and critical thinking' debate as well.
So there are really two different ways you can do this.
You can either make a bastion that has been captured by DE to be used as a staging base. At which point just throw the nets and spikes over it to make it a bit more 'Dark Eldar' like.
Or if you want to go for broke, you could make a floating DE fortress kind of item. Use the bastion model. Make it floating like a monolith. Cut the top so its got spikes and edges, and use raider platorms for the top parapit. Its a lot more in-debth but would be very cool.
Flyer-based armies are hilariously easy to ignore.
My game yesterday was incredibly amusing for me, because I spent the majority of it with my tiny little Venoms using ruins to block line of sight, my Reavers turbo-boosting for their 3+ cover and my Ravagers picking their noses while my opponent tried uselessly to maneuver his stormravens into a good firing position. Any time he got even close, I just flat-outed into his rear arc so he couldn't fire on me next turn. The only shots he got were when he deep-striked, and trying to deep-strike every other turn resulted in some nasty scatters and caused him to lose a whole third of his army thanks to a 1 on the mishap table.
The only army that can flier spam to a frightening level is Necrons, and that's only because Tesla are good for killing troops and infantry. If my opponent tries to spam vendettas, kay. He'll kill the crap out of the skimmers he can get shots at. My troops claim the objectives. If he tries to spam stormravens? Kay. Same story. The skimmers he manages to shoot at die, the troops claim objectives.
I haven't run into DE flier spam yet, but dear god that's a horrible idea.
In other words, if my opponent spams fliers, I'm going to smiiile, because that's going to be a very frustrating game for him and it's going to be hilarious for me. I'm going to download benny hill music to my phone just for situations such as this.
If he spams vendettas he will likely kill every skimmer in your army and then hover remove vets flat out off the board then flame everything. Everyone seems to overlook the fact that you can always flat out a hovering flyer off of the board after letting out your army men. I may lose a turn of shooting but you lose your best chance at my flyer.
I think that OP's concerns are legitimate but I do not agree with him... Flyers are very powerful, without dubt but they have an essential limit: They aren't too much useful at taking objectives... So a Flyer spam list risks to run short of bodies to get these damn objectives... For example 3 Stormravens are 600/615 points without any upgrade... Considering that there aren't cheap units that you can ride in them, you soon end with a 1500 points army composed exclusively by these 3 flyers and the transported troops. all the enemy has to do is to wipe out the transported units then your flyers are useless...
For this reason I prefer a single storm-raven, and a single flyer can absorb a lot of fire but it can be taken down by almost every army...
You always have to consider the objective based missions before stating and how the supposedly Broken unit relates to them... For example, my Draigo unit in this edition is nigh unstoppable... Those pallies can tke down almost everything (wraithlords, Daemon princes, hordes, walkers, even TH/SS Termies, given the absurd fire power they can dish before an assualt) and will survive to almost everything... But I keep losing games... because this uber unit, even if it's very funny, is pretty much useless in Objectives missions... The same applies to flyers...
Labmouse is correct on all counts. While his ork example is rather extreme, an army with 6 flyers has a relatively large "footprint". The flyers also can only pivot 90 degrees once before they move, and must move at least 18" from their current spot. Knowing this, it's possible (regardless of the army you're playing) to do the following:
1) Spread your forces out in such a way that there is nowhere for the flyer to place their base.
2) Move in such a way that you are behind the flyer after they move 18+".
At this point, the flyers can hover to try to get some better mobility, but they still will not be able to place their base where you don't want them to, and you will be able to fire at them or assault normally in your next turn. Or, the enemy will be forced to flat out their flyer to get off the board and try to come in for another attack run. In either case, you have neutralized the threat for that turn.
Try actually proxying some flyer bases and try moving them around the board and you'll see how limited their mobility and firepower can be, especially when alot of them don't have 360 degree fire arcs.
Lokas wrote:Flyer-based armies are hilariously easy to ignore.
My game yesterday was incredibly amusing for me, because I spent the majority of it with my tiny little Venoms using ruins to block line of sight, my Reavers turbo-boosting for their 3+ cover and my Ravagers picking their noses while my opponent tried uselessly to maneuver his stormravens into a good firing position. Any time he got even close, I just flat-outed into his rear arc so he couldn't fire on me next turn. The only shots he got were when he deep-striked, and trying to deep-strike every other turn resulted in some nasty scatters and caused him to lose a whole third of his army thanks to a 1 on the mishap table.
The only army that can flier spam to a frightening level is Necrons, and that's only because Tesla are good for killing troops and infantry. If my opponent tries to spam vendettas, kay. He'll kill the crap out of the skimmers he can get shots at. My troops claim the objectives. If he tries to spam stormravens? Kay. Same story. The skimmers he manages to shoot at die, the troops claim objectives.
I haven't run into DE flier spam yet, but dear god that's a horrible idea.
In other words, if my opponent spams fliers, I'm going to smiiile, because that's going to be a very frustrating game for him and it's going to be hilarious for me. I'm going to download benny hill music to my phone just for situations such as this.
Isn't turbo boosting a 4+ save now instead of 3+ like before? Or do they have something that increases their cover save?
Lokas wrote:In other words, if my opponent spams fliers, I'm going to smiiile, because that's going to be a very frustrating game for him and it's going to be hilarious for me. I'm going to download benny hill music to my phone just for situations such as this.
This would be the most incredibad game in the history of 40k.
You'd have to make sure that you actually had your units doing loops around the board in their movement phase, and have your own fliers run off one side of the board only to reappear the next turn on the other side.
Behold, fliers!
whitedragon wrote:Labmouse is correct on all counts. While his ork example is rather extreme, an army with 6 flyers has a relatively large "footprint". The flyers also can only pivot 90 degrees once before they move, and must move at least 18" from their current spot. Knowing this, it's possible (regardless of the army you're playing) to do the following:
1) Spread your forces out in such a way that there is nowhere for the flyer to place their base.
2) Move in such a way that you are behind the flyer after they move 18+".
LOL!
Welcome to the world of pre-measuring. Do all fliers have hover? If they don't, what would happen to them if they couldn't move? Would they be forced to crash land?
Phanatik wrote:My wife has never played 40k.
My only army is DE.
My comment was regarding the proposed temporary solution to massed flyers, i.e., massed orks.
I'm in the same boat: My other armies are both WIP (and don't look like they'll be finished soon, and the tau wouldn't be able to deal with flyers anyway). What I'm doing is triple ravager, multiple venoms with blasterborn, Aegis defense line with quad-gun, and crossed fingers that all of that will stand a chance at hitting. The rest of the army is built around taking out other stuff, because that's normally what'll win the game.
Anyway, I would suggest making an entirely different thread for this, and there are better DE tacticians than me (or at least there were in 5e: try asking Thor665.
I have a tournament Tommorow. I am an eldar player and slightly worried about running into a stupid flyer list. But when I think about it.... My mobility will win me the fight. If I see they will be trying to have 3-6 flyers come in turn 2, I'll just turbo boost/ go all out with my entire army to their side of the board. Then why they come in they will basicly overshoot me and everything they shoot at anyway will have a 4+ cover save. Fortuned items will have a rerollable 4+.
So if I go first, I move forward and blast away. They go, and don't have much to shoot with since a ton of points are invested in flyers. Then on my turn two I get everyone to their table edge and their turn two they overshoot with every flyer. My turn 3 I blast at all ground troops. Their turn 3 is spent trying to survive with their groud troops and trying to turn their flyers around or zooming them off the board. I you have the mobility to get to their table edge, am I not correct in thinking that a zooming flyer can do nothing to you unless they manage to
Turn all the way around?
One thing i would like to point out.
Lots of people who have responded to this have done so by posting specific lists that would work. The problem being, not everyone has the models on hand or the money to buy them so that they can feild that specific list. This same issue arises when people post an army in the army list section and you get responses like "you should take this and this". What if you dont have this and this. wouldnt tactical advice be better than advocating that the player goes out and spend hundreads of dollars to buy models so they can beat the afformentioned list be more effective advice. Otherwise, does not 40k only amount to who can afford to buy the right model to win. Just saying.
sennacherib wrote:Lots of people who have responded to this have done so by posting specific lists that would work. The problem being, not everyone has the models on hand or the money to buy them so that they can feild that specific list. This same issue arises when people post an army in the army list section and you get responses like "you should take this and this". What if you dont have this and this.
Well, as I said...
Ailaros wrote: Fliers really are only good against a couple of things. If you're really having such problems against them, then don't take those few things fliers are explicitly good against.
It doesn't cost you a dime to not field something.
Iur_tae_mont wrote:Mass TL Autocannons( and Autocannon equivs) glancing seem to be the best way to deal with Flyers.
Mass TL lascannons( and Lascannon equivs. Broadsides ftw) Penning, while riskier due to fewer shots, could work as well.
Any list that had long distance solutions to Tanks in 5th should be ok for Flyers in 6th.
An what do you think dies first? I am talking Ravens here not Vendettas, PoMS allowes you to fire one weapon at a seperate target, an please remember that all of the Raven's weapons are TL.
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White Ninja wrote:I take your 6 flyer list and raise you 12 hydra flak tanks. It costs me the same but gives me more targets then you can easily take out. And since all of your flyer are coming in piece meal and my flak tanks are in 6 different squads very few of your planes will survive more then one turn in contact with me. Add lots of terrain to protect my stuff and that's more or less game over.
Would you really take 12 hydra flak tanks in a tournament?
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Lokas wrote:Flyer-based armies are hilariously easy to ignore.
My game yesterday was incredibly amusing for me, because I spent the majority of it with my tiny little Venoms using ruins to block line of sight, my Reavers turbo-boosting for their 3+ cover and my Ravagers picking their noses while my opponent tried uselessly to maneuver his stormravens into a good firing position. Any time he got even close, I just flat-outed into his rear arc so he couldn't fire on me next turn. The only shots he got were when he deep-striked, and trying to deep-strike every other turn resulted in some nasty scatters and caused him to lose a whole third of his army thanks to a 1 on the mishap table.
The only army that can flier spam to a frightening level is Necrons, and that's only because Tesla are good for killing troops and infantry. If my opponent tries to spam vendettas, kay. He'll kill the crap out of the skimmers he can get shots at. My troops claim the objectives. If he tries to spam stormravens? Kay. Same story. The skimmers he manages to shoot at die, the troops claim objectives.
I haven't run into DE flier spam yet, but dear god that's a horrible idea.
In other words, if my opponent spams fliers, I'm going to smiiile, because that's going to be a very frustrating game for him and it's going to be hilarious for me. I'm going to download benny hill music to my phone just for situations such as this.
Ummm why were they deepstriking Storm Ravens? An if you did that with your skimmer, I would unload my troop of choice, (Purifiers with Incinerators) to negate your cover save an cook you.
sennacherib wrote:One thing i would like to point out.
Lots of people who have responded to this have done so by posting specific lists that would work. The problem being, not everyone has the models on hand or the money to buy them so that they can feild that specific list. This same issue arises when people post an army in the army list section and you get responses like "you should take this and this". What if you dont have this and this. wouldnt tactical advice be better than advocating that the player goes out and spend hundreads of dollars to buy models so they can beat the afformentioned list be more effective advice. Otherwise, does not 40k only amount to who can afford to buy the right model to win. Just saying.
Wraithlords are OP, I can't hurt them with my bog-standard Black Templars without wargear! Arguing that something's OP because you don't have the right weapons or units to counter them when they're available to everyone doesn't work, the game isn't balanced around whether someone can afford something IRL or not.
punkow wrote:I think that OP's concerns are legitimate but I do not agree with him... Flyers are very powerful, without dubt but they have an essential limit: They aren't too much useful at taking objectives... So a Flyer spam list risks to run short of bodies to get these damn objectives... For example 3 Stormravens are 600/615 points without any upgrade... Considering that there aren't cheap units that you can ride in them, you soon end with a 1500 points army composed exclusively by these 3 flyers and the transported troops. all the enemy has to do is to wipe out the transported units then your flyers are useless...
For this reason I prefer a single storm-raven, and a single flyer can absorb a lot of fire but it can be taken down by almost every army...
You always have to consider the objective based missions before stating and how the supposedly Broken unit relates to them... For example, my Draigo unit in this edition is nigh unstoppable... Those pallies can tke down almost everything (wraithlords, Daemon princes, hordes, walkers, even TH/SS Termies, given the absurd fire power they can dish before an assualt) and will survive to almost everything... But I keep losing games... because this uber unit, even if it's very funny, is pretty much useless in Objectives missions... The same applies to flyers...
Do you honestly think I would take 3 Storm Ravens at 1500pts? My point total of choice for game is 1999+1. If I wanted three fliers in a list I would run Imp guard as primary, 1 command squad, 2 melta vet squads, 3 independant Vendettas and then prolly Wolf or Grey Knight allies to get a hammer CC unit.
sennacherib wrote:One thing i would like to point out.
Lots of people who have responded to this have done so by posting specific lists that would work. The problem being, not everyone has the models on hand or the money to buy them so that they can feild that specific list. This same issue arises when people post an army in the army list section and you get responses like "you should take this and this". What if you dont have this and this. wouldnt tactical advice be better than advocating that the player goes out and spend hundreads of dollars to buy models so they can beat the afformentioned list be more effective advice. Otherwise, does not 40k only amount to who can afford to buy the right model to win. Just saying.
Wraithlords are OP, I can't hurt them with my bog-standard Black Templars without wargear! Arguing that something's OP because you don't have the right weapons or units to counter them when they're available to everyone doesn't work, the game isn't balanced around whether someone can afford something IRL or not.
Depending on the situation of course it does why wouldn't it. You could move to a new town with 10k points loads of flyers and other uber units, but those people only have maybe a few thousand points and not a lot of disposable income you could go in a wipe the floor with them an they should just take it, because its not your fault they can't spend whatever they want on 40k.
Would flyers break the game for them then? I corrected my OP in the World Series of Warhammer flyers haven't broken sh*t because someone can go out and blow hundreds of dollars on uber armies.
Just because I can take 6 flyers doesn't meen that I should.
sennacherib wrote:One thing i would like to point out.
Lots of people who have responded to this have done so by posting specific lists that would work. The problem being, not everyone has the models on hand or the money to buy them so that they can feild that specific list. This same issue arises when people post an army in the army list section and you get responses like "you should take this and this". What if you dont have this and this. wouldnt tactical advice be better than advocating that the player goes out and spend hundreads of dollars to buy models so they can beat the afformentioned list be more effective advice. Otherwise, does not 40k only amount to who can afford to buy the right model to win. Just saying.
Wraithlords are OP, I can't hurt them with my bog-standard Black Templars without wargear! Arguing that something's OP because you don't have the right weapons or units to counter them when they're available to everyone doesn't work, the game isn't balanced around whether someone can afford something IRL or not.
Depending on the situation of course it does why wouldn't it. You could move to a new town with 10k points loads of flyers and other uber units, but those people only have maybe a few thousand points and not a lot of disposable income you could go in a wipe the floor with them an they should just take it, because its not your fault they can't spend whatever they want on 40k.
Would flyers break the game for them then? I corrected my OP in the World Series of Warhammer flyers haven't broken sh*t because someone can go out and blow hundreds of dollars on uber armies.
Just because I can take 6 flyers doesn't meen that I should.
This is the case for any game that doesn't force you to use some standard set of equipment, eg. Magic the Gathering, or even sports like Tennis or Softball. People who have more money to spend can beat people who don't. If you can run 6 flyers, and you think your regular opponents can't handle them, then by all means don't field 6 flyers. To imply that this situation implies GW ruined the game or something is nuts. As pointed out above, the fact that a random collection of models bought for $300 can't beat something more optimized is not surprising and not a sign of a flaw in the game.
By the way, a slightly different situation could arise in 6th even if flyers had never existed. It looks like psyker spam and 2+ armor might be very powerful in the 6th edition meta. Suppose I play with a group of people who all have 5th edition armies, and mine happened to be Deathwing. We are all broke, and nobody can afford to update their army much. In 5th, we were roughly balanced, because the others had lots of Power Weapons in their lists, and ran high models counts so they could win by attrition. Now, they can't touch me. Does this mean GW broke the game? Draw your own conclusion.
MrEconomics wrote:This is the case for any game that doesn't force you to use some standard set of equipment, eg. Magic the Gathering, or even sports like Tennis or Softball. People who have more money to spend can beat people who don't.
I'd actually take issue with this.
40k is NOT like tennis. The people who win tennis games are the better tennis player. So long as they have good enough basic equipment (a decent racket, shoes not falling apart, snugly fitting headband, etc.), the equipment itself is pretty marginal with regard to who wins the game. It really is skill against skill, not pocketbook against pocketbook.
40k is also rather different from MTG. 40k has at least some semblance of balance put in place to restrict people from buying victory. In the case of 40k, games have a points value, and the rich person is forced to play at the points level of the poorer. Likewise, codices are internally balanced rather well, and the difference between two codices isn't THAT bad, compared to MTG, which has to create banned cards lists in order to prevent flagrant abuse, and only allow cards published in the last year - requiring you to purchase more over time to stay competitive.
Throw in "counts as" and outright proxying, and 40k is rather blind to the income of its players. It's certainly within the margins where player skill and your particular luck will make much more of a difference to the outcome of any particular game.
The only advantage rich people appear to have in the world of 40k is how quickly they can adapt to change. If a new codex or a new rules set comes out and makes something good, the rich player can buy it faster. This, however, is seriously mitigated by time. I personally am far from rich, but over years and years of slowly collecting my guard army, when there are changes I likely already have a miniature lying around, so this same kind of flexibility is simulated by other means.
My point was not to make implications that GW broke the game, or any of the nonsence that some of the above posters are carrying on about. I just pointed out that posting posts like " buy 12 hydra flak tanks" are of little to no use with respect to the original post.
OP - as long as you dont wish to be TFG i dont see any problem with fielding three flyers in your list. Its people who will rush out and buy whatever possible so that they CAN be TFG that are the problem. As one of the wiser posters earlier on pointed out, flyers are new to the game and as new codex come out they will contain stuff in them that is designed to kill flyers. Chaos is reputed to be getting a new dex with a flying demon engine that will eat other peoples flyers for breakfast (literally).
MrEconomics wrote:This is the case for any game that doesn't force you to use some standard set of equipment, eg. Magic the Gathering, or even sports like Tennis or Softball. People who have more money to spend can beat people who don't.
I'd actually take issue with this.
40k is NOT like tennis. The people who win tennis games are the better tennis player. So long as they have good enough basic equipment (a decent racket, shoes not falling apart, snugly fitting headband, etc.), the equipment itself is pretty marginal with regard to who wins the game. It really is skill against skill, not pocketbook against pocketbook.
40k is also rather different from MTG. 40k has at least some semblance of balance put in place to restrict people from buying victory. In the case of 40k, games have a points value, and the rich person is forced to play at the points level of the poorer. Likewise, codices are internally balanced rather well, and the difference between two codices isn't THAT bad, compared to MTG, which has to create banned cards lists in order to prevent flagrant abuse, and only allow cards published in the last year - requiring you to purchase more over time to stay competitive.
Throw in "counts as" and outright proxying, and 40k is rather blind to the income of its players. It's certainly within the margins where player skill and your particular luck will make much more of a difference to the outcome of any particular game.
The only advantage rich people appear to have in the world of 40k is how quickly they can adapt to change. If a new codex or a new rules set comes out and makes something good, the rich player can buy it faster. This, however, is seriously mitigated by time. I personally am far from rich, but over years and years of slowly collecting my guard army, when there are changes I likely already have a miniature lying around, so this same kind of flexibility is simulated by other means.
A poor choice of words. What I meant was "can purchase an advantage". Maybe Tennis isn't a good example, as I'm not sure how much rackets matter, so swap golf for tennis. There's a pretty big difference in golf clubs, especially from ten years ago or whatever.
At any rate, the real implication is that it's far easier to be good at these endeavors if you have money to spend. Hell, even games like Bridge can be an example, even though the equipment is meaningless, as you can spend money on lessons or even pay someone good to play with you (this is pretty common for people who are trying to get good at Bridge, and Bridge is a partners game, so having a good partner is a massive advantage).
Saying "flyers have broken the game because I can't afford a counter to them" is like saying "land raiders are over powered because I don't have meltaguns in my list, and I can't afford to buy them". You may have a hard time against them, but that doesn't mean that they are broken.
broodstar wrote:What is this about flyers being broken, they can be countered by free weapons. Your basic tac squad ml has a round that takes them down easy.
Not yet they don't. The book says some missile launchers may have the OPTION to take flak missiles, but no dex gives that as an option, so no flak missiles on SM yet.
broodstar wrote:What is this about flyers being broken, they can be countered by free weapons. Your basic tac squad ml has a round that takes them down easy.
Not yet they don't. The book says some missile launchers may have the OPTION to take flak missiles, but no dex gives that as an option, so no flak missiles on SM yet.
Yeah key word "yet". once the books come out everything will be koshir. In other words, "don't worry about it."
broodstar wrote:What is this about flyers being broken, they can be countered by free weapons. Your basic tac squad ml has a round that takes them down easy.
Not yet they don't. The book says some missile launchers may have the OPTION to take flak missiles, but no dex gives that as an option, so no flak missiles on SM yet.
Yeah key word "yet". once the books come out everything will be koshir. In other words, "don't worry about it."
This is getting off topic, but marines cant expect a new dex until AFTER the CSM and DA, and even then, we DON"T KNOW what will be in the next dex, so plan for what we have now, at least until we get some solid rumers.
broodstar wrote:What is this about flyers being broken, they can be countered by free weapons. Your basic tac squad ml has a round that takes them down easy.
Not yet they don't. The book says some missile launchers may have the OPTION to take flak missiles, but no dex gives that as an option, so no flak missiles on SM yet.
Yeah key word "yet". once the books come out everything will be koshir. In other words, "don't worry about it."
This is getting off topic, but marines cant expect a new dex until AFTER the CSM and DA, and even then, we DON"T KNOW what will be in the next dex, so plan for what we have now, at least until we get some solid rumers.
Like anything in this game, they're still going to die to volume. The MC assault is Tyranids greatest answer to tanks, you think im not upset that my FMC's can't assault flyers? Tyranids don't even get skyfire so our answer to them in Dakkafexes and Dakka Flyrants. I'm sure if Stormravens and Stormtalons are such a huge threat to your army, then I'm sure you'll have no problem throwing every shot you have at them.
I don't think flyers are breaking anything but I do think they are a poor addition to 40k.
The mechanics make it hard or inefficient to interact with flyers from the ground without oddball units or allies or fortifications. A lot of list variance and unique army builds get shaved away in the pursuit of balancing out an all comers list and now needing to make sure you can interact with flyers profitably is one more check on the list of must-have points sacrifices before you're allowed to dip into the obscure synergies and unit/wargear redundancies that reflect your personal tastes and preferences.
It used to be flyers were the realm of battlefleet gothic and mission fluff, controlling a mid board coms tower objective or taking an airfield in a longform campaign would give you strafing run rolls on subsequent turns/games not far different from orbital bombardments or artillery strikes. Flyers were unseen forces far above the player interactions on board and that felt pretty right. Now they marginalize what used to be the very unique signature role of fast skimmers. There's essentially a second game being played 15" above your 40k board that can freely interact down at you but you can't very freely interact upwards at it. It feels very detached and unfun for me, regardless of how many games flyers are or aren't winning for people.
hotsauceman1 wrote:Fortifications, Nuff said.
Also don whine, we are a month in. No new codex releases. We will see more models with skyfire from now on.
Agreed, a couple quad guns would make quick work of those, same with a bunch of lootas and mass shooting
I love it when people say things like this.
1)you can have one quad gun at <2000 points, the overwealming majority of games
2)S7 vs AV12, even assuming they all hit, has a 50% of a penetrating hit, at AP4. So on average you'll get one or two hull points
3)One quad gun vs 3 AV12s. Go figure.
So your saying you hate it when people give some ideas on how to beat the question at hand? WTF are you doing on this forum then?
valace2 wrote:Ummm why were they deepstriking Storm Ravens? An if you did that with your skimmer, I would unload my troop of choice, (Purifiers with Incinerators) to negate your cover save an cook you.
Could not get any shots otherwise. I had aggressively pushed up the board and into his deployment zone, so no matter where he came in on his board edge or what angle, he would not have a shot at any of my models. Rather than spending 3 turns making minimum moves and 90 degree turns, he deep struck into my deployment zone/the middle of the board to try and line up a few shots.
Also, please hover your fliers near my venoms full of wyches.
Please do this. It's a fantastic idea. Oh yes, please do that. I am absolutely begging you to do that. It will teach me what for, I assure you. Oh yes, that's a great tactical decision!
Oh my god I'd love to turn that Stormraven into a fireball with just 60 points of wyches.
Never gonna get to do the BA+ IG flier spam personally but I do face necron flier spam locally and ran the numbers over on the GK post anyway. For your consideration:
AC dread has a 7.22% chance to take down (explode/wreck w/e) a flier per 4 shots
Roughly it will take you 11-10 psycannon shots (non-twin linked) to achieve the same same kill ratio at around 7.98 to 7.07% chance to destroy. With 4 shots each, that's about 3 psycannons! (if they jink save themselves of course)
casting divination on them will just require some 3-4 psycannon shots (or 1 psycannon) to get almost 7 to 9.8% kill chance
Quad gun with someone with BS 4 shooting it - about 18.16% chance to down an AV 11 flier.. You will need exactly 8 shots from combined 2 AC dreads to equal that kill chance. (with them jink saving for a 5+ of course)
It will take some 20 psycannon shots to equal that at non-twin linked (or roughly 5 psycannons - 2 to 3 squads of purifiers or 3 large squads of strike squads) without divination to equal that.
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BTW just ran the numbers for a squad of 10, shooting 20 shots, you can get 38.66% of a wreck off on AV 11. If you are shooting at a Jink'ing skimmer, that's cut down to 18.13% wreck.
Vs shooting at a flier - 1.72% of a wreck, if they Jink, that's cut down to 0.57% wreck.
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Not very good odds :/
Bottom line though, good chance or at least decent of wrecking a rhino in a single round.
Just for comparison - for that 20 points, you can get say get 2 hunter killer missles for your anti-tank - and then get roughly 7.27% of a wreck for 2 shots with jink/5+ save. or 10.80% without a cover save.
Vs flier - 2.76% of wreck for those same 2 shots. Down to 1.84% to wreck with jink save.
Overall, pretty decent investment for a 20 point investment at 10man shooting 20 shots.
The break even point appears (where you tie with the 2 hunter killer missles) - on non-fliers (damn fliers lol) is around 9 to 10 shots fired (so 5 man or 6 man with a psycannon, or 7 man with 2 psycannons if say using purifiers)
at 9 shots it's 6.89% vs 10 shots at 9.06%. With jink, it drops to 15-16 shots to break even. (so like 8 guys, or 10 guys with 2 psycannons, and less useful the more psycannons you take)
I know this is a bit OT and I apologize, but given some of the discussion in this thread I feel compelled to say this.
As a new player, I can confirm without a doubt that real life money is an obstacle that allows a significant advantage to anyone who has spent more money than I have in this hobby. I am neither rich nor poor, but I am limited in my budget for 40k models, as such I have to run lists that are based as much on what models I own as opposed to what models I would run if I could pick the army out of my codex. I'd love to run two AC/Las preds in my list, or two CC Ironclads in drop pods, but hell if I am dropping 100 bucks on plastic tanks right now.
40k can in no way be compared to a real sport because in real sports it is talent and athleticism that the individual brings to the game, and that talent and athleticism is what makes the difference. In 40k tactics are what makes the difference and tactics are what the individual brings to the table; problem is some tactics are pricey.
I 100% believe that strategy and tactical skill trump all when the players have similar army resources. And I believe completely that there are tactics and counters to combat any type of enemy you encounter, but that doesn't mean squat (wish those short buggers where still around) if you can't invest the required money to keep up with GW's top of the line in awesome looking plastic army men. A year or two from now maybe I will have enough models built up that I can change lists and wargear to suit different threats. But right now, an opponent can easily buy himself/herself (ha, like girls play 40k) a victory over me simply by having things I can't afford to field a counter for.
Am I complaining, no, this game is fun even when I lose. Just seeing awesome painted armies and painting/planning my own is fun enough.
But lets not lie to ourselves here and pretend real life money doesn't make a difference in this game. Don't feel bad that you have a kick-ass collection, but also don't take too much pride in yourself for winning with a $500-$600 list you've picked out from your $1000 dollar collection when your opponent clearly is playing with every single model they own to reach the game's points level.
That, and anyone who isn't naive can tell that GW is simply letting fliers run a little rampant for a while to get people to blow their cash wads on a ton of new models and fortifications. As soon as new codices come out, things like flakk missiles will be made available and the real list building can start. Fliers aren't broken, they are just enjoying a bit of a free reign.
I've seen everything proxied before. heck someone here posted a b-rep with literally a piece of sheet metal and chalk drawn circles representing units before.
Someone recently just used a bottle of lysol as a flier and personally I've seen salt and pepper shakers subbed in as infantry and foam cups as dreadnaughts (or soda cans)
You can really do just about w/e. High priced models are no bar to an enjoyable game. If you guys ever see some of those POW camps stories, we've had guys make dice out of tooth paste and old bread dough to get a game.
Tournaments are really just a small part of the game.
I've had the UPS box land raider before. It was very awesome. In fact even before warhammer, I used to make fortifications out of old size D batteries and golf balls manned by green army men.
Grey Templar wrote:Ok, this hobby is an expensive one. Complaining that "I can't afford to buy stuff" is not a good way to deal with the situation. Save up your money.
Agreed, Ive built my army over time. Sure not all my vehicles are GW but they are at the very least as close to the size and WYSIWYG to the rules. Still, you dont have to dump enough money to buy a 4k point army in a month.
UltraTacSgt wrote:
40k can in no way be compared to a real sport because in real sports it is talent and athleticism that the individual brings to the game, and that talent and athleticism is what makes the difference. In 40k tactics are what makes the difference and tactics are what the individual brings to the table; problem is some tactics are pricey.
In many real sports at a very competitive gear makes a big difference. The winner in many sports can be determined by sub second differences and having the better low drag suit, or better shoes or bike, engine, tyres or whatever can be the difference between gold and silver. Sure you have to be up there and able to compete at that level to start with, but once there more money and more high tech gear can be pretty important.
Razgriz22 wrote:I have a tournament Tommorow. I am an eldar player and slightly worried about running into a stupid flyer list. But when I think about it.... My mobility will win me the fight. If I see they will be trying to have 3-6 flyers come in turn 2, I'll just turbo boost/ go all out with my entire army to their side of the board. Then why they come in they will basicly overshoot me and everything they shoot at anyway will have a 4+ cover save. Fortuned items will have a rerollable 4
They will have 1 shot at your tanks. You can then glide 12" to their rear arc and take shots with 7 STR 6 shots (assuming you have TL scatter lasers and an underslung cannon)
You should hit with 1.83 shots per turn, so you if you focus fire, you should be able to do some damage to his army.
New edition comes out, fliers are awesome.. Everyone spends £££ padding their lists out with fliers.
1 year down the line.. new codexes come out, everyone has access to 2pt Flakk missles.. Everyone shelves their expensive flying targets, cause they are too easy to kill..
End result.. GW made a fortune selling useless models
Hetelic wrote:New edition comes out, fliers are awesome.. Everyone spends £££ padding their lists out with fliers.
1 year down the line.. new codexes come out, everyone has access to 2pt Flakk missles.. Everyone shelves their expensive flying targets, cause they are too easy to kill..
End result.. GW made a fortune selling useless models
They can measure the count down to the next codex in number of flyer sales. Once they have sold enough out pops the codex and probably an FAQ giving everyone flak missiles, with missile launchers still not readily available in any GW set.
As far as I'm aware, they'll be getting rid of Daemon Princes altogether, as they want all daemons to be one codex and all marines in another. Instead it'll be more that if you want a daemon prince then just have allied attachments instead.
Bottom line of this thread is - "My army can cope with flyers, so the fact that yours can't means you are an idiot".
There are some armies for whom facing up against a storm raven means you can gaurentee that your enemy's elite melee unit is going to charge you wherever the hell it likes, with no uncertainty whatsoever. You could argue that they pay a premium for this but to a lot of players it's frustrating.
The introduction of availble flak missiles will only cause problems for people that play extremist armies. If you feel the need to spam insane amounts of flying to abuse it you have it coming. I personally won't really care about flak missiles when they arrive because they will be nothing different from people spamming anti-vehicle in 5th - It won't phase me I don't rely on fliers I just use a couple.
I feel sorry mostly for those that can't function with a balanced army and who's first impression with the introduction for fliers is to go out and by extreme quantities of them.
Yea flyers are just like anything else in this game. A balanced list will have some way of dealing with them. If someone wants to go extreme then learn its weaknesses and do the best you can. Same for any extreme in this game.
Fliers are a big advantage right now. So is skyfire. Allies and fortifications are the equalizer but there is no low-clost option to take it on.
I would agree though that take a chill pill. We are one month in and now only guard (hydras) defense lines (1 target) and another flyer can compete. I personnally cringe at the thought of a valkrie/vendetta flying list but it still has weaknesses. (For one auto loss if there is nothing on the board so no flyer-only list is viable.)
The only race I feel got piled on was the tyranids - no flyers of worth, no defense lines and no IG allies. The fact that they have a relatively fresh codex means no major fix is probably in the works.
DAaddict wrote:Fliers are a big advantage right now. So is skyfire. Allies and fortifications are the equalizer but there is no low-clost option to take it on.
I would agree though that take a chill pill. We are one month in and now only guard (hydras) defense lines (1 target) and another flyer can compete. I personnally cringe at the thought of a valkrie/vendetta flying list but it still has weaknesses. (For one auto loss if there is nothing on the board so no flyer-only list is viable.)
The only race I feel got piled on was the tyranids - no flyers of worth, no defense lines and no IG allies. The fact that they have a relatively fresh codex means no major fix is probably in the works.
They can take defense lines. There is no rule that says they can't.
To say "flyers have broken this game" is just plain silly.
There are options for dealing with flyers. For orks, Lootas are good at that. Everyone can also take quad gun aegis, everyone except tyranids can take friends with either flyers or some anti flyer thing. Many armies have TL weapons. They are great against flyers.
Stop crying and play some game. Flyers are usually easy to take down (for example, Vendetta has good armour, but no cover or invul like DE or Eldar Forgeworld flyers, which on the other hand have silly armor).
I played a game few days ago without any flyer or AA support on my side. 1000 points IG. Enemy has a flyer. It is not a problem to shot that thing down if you are not unlucky (like me). ACs with TL can do wonders (I have got ACHWT + BiD order). You can use rifledread (SM, GK), you can use you own flyers (IG, DE, Necrons, Eldar forgeworld), you can use TL plazma and rocket pod (Tau), you can use anything Guided (Eldar), you can use fire volleys (orks)....etc.
Hey guys! I am Mike, or lordybarbo. I'm new, so please be gentle.
I believe that flyers are not broken; they are the future of the game. Even in modern/post modern warfare, forces without airpower, or AAA, are punished for their lack of vision.
This may have already come up, but I need some help clarifying something.
I just played a tournament (18 person; 9 tables), and I was playing my third game for 1st place. I ended up playing another necron army. I had 6 night scythes with 10 warriors each, a basic lord, a monolith, three spyders, and a doomsday ark. His composition does not really matter, but the following issues do:
1) They said that I could not move off the table with my flyers. I explained that I could zoom 18 to 36", making me a zooming flyer, and that if I moved flat out in the shooting phase, I, as a zooming flyer, could voluntarily move off the field and go to ongoing reserves. They allowed me to do it, but they (my necron opponent and the tourney staff) said it was illegal.
2) My opponent said that he could take his necron chariot (command barge) and sweeping attack my flyers. I told him you can not assault a flyer. He said I am not assaulting it; just using a sweep attack to hit it with close combat attacks. SO, the tourney official allowed him to hit my flyer with close combat attacks from the chariot. He said he flew over my flyer. I did not agree, and said I will compromise. You can hit me on a 6 like everyone else. He said I hit you on a 4+. I just started picking up my models.
3) I am not sure I agree with this, but one other necron player there (who agreed with my interpretations above) said that jink should improve. I asked him why, and he said that if a skimmer moves flat out, the save should be 4+. Does the jink save for a flyer improve with movement?
4) This next point of contention is more of a pet peeve of politeness. As you can imagine, the game store was really full and space was a premium. I, as a seasoned player, knew I would be moving table to table, and had set up my boxes so I could move the men on top of them, making them easy to access and move. As you can imagine, the two boxes were covered with infantry and vehicles. This butthole knew they were on the ground; he needed to look at my side of the table, moved like a freak, kicked my box, then stomped on two of my guys. He only said he was sorry; he did not offer to fix them or pay for them. SO not only did he not know the rules and was butt hurt he could not deal with my flyers, he also smashed two of my men for insult to injury. It was tied 4-4 in the 4th game turn, and if I could have kept zooming and been patient I could have got a draw or narrow victory.
WOW, after that, what do you guys think about that? I need some help, please!
Testify wrote:Bottom line of this thread is - "My army can cope with flyers, so the fact that yours can't means you are an idiot".
There are some armies for whom facing up against a storm raven means you can gaurentee that your enemy's elite melee unit is going to charge you wherever the hell it likes, with no uncertainty whatsoever. You could argue that they pay a premium for this but to a lot of players it's frustrating.
The less said about necron, however, the better.
Well, every army has their ups and downs, or should do, so yes, that is the bottom line, and I don't see anything wrong in that.
Assault armies can deny flyer the shooting, or reduce the amount of shooting, by moving into their uncomfortable zone.
Horde armies can even spread out to crash a flyer by denying them the compulsory 18" move, or push them to move beyond that.
Gunline armies will struggle, but IG can bring their own flyers or skyfire, and rumour has it that tau is looking to get some flyers soon(what other gunline armies are there?). And even if they can't move into enemy's zone to deny shooting or something. That's the price they paid, they can possibly wipe the enemy's ground units from afar, while the flyer is in reserve and win the game that way.
Zooming flyers suffer from arc-of-fire and lack of maneuverability, with the exception of necron flyers, most would either have to hover next turn so they could get another turn of shooting, turning them into an instant target(have you tried shooting down a skimmer? Or assaulting one? Apparently it's very much like every other vehicle!).
So expanded bottom line: Some armies can't handle flyers as good as the other, but flyers aren't as terrifying as people made them out to be.
1) They said that I could not move off the table with my flyers. I explained that I could zoom 18 to 36", making me a zooming flyer, and that if I moved flat out in the shooting phase, I, as a zooming flyer, could voluntarily move off the field and go to ongoing reserves. They allowed me to do it, but they (my necron opponent and the tourney staff) said it was illegal.
Did those guys even read the BRB?
2) My opponent said that he could take his necron chariot (command barge) and sweeping attack my flyers. I told him you can not assault a flyer. He said I am not assaulting it; just using a sweep attack to hit it with close combat attacks. SO, the tourney official allowed him to hit my flyer with close combat attacks from the chariot. He said he flew over my flyer. I did not agree, and said I will compromise. You can hit me on a 6 like everyone else. He said I hit you on a 4+. I just started picking up my models.
Your opponent was fully correct and you behaved in a very poor manner. Instead of looking in the BRB / codex you just forfeit the game with the least amount of sportsmanship you could present. *slow clap*
3) I am not sure I agree with this, but one other necron player there (who agreed with my interpretations above) said that jink should improve. I asked him why, and he said that if a skimmer moves flat out, the save should be 4+. Does the jink save for a flyer improve with movement?
Correct. 5+ save if moved any distance, 4+ when having moved flat-out.
4) This next point of contention is more of a pet peeve of politeness. As you can imagine, the game store was really full and space was a premium. I, as a seasoned player, knew I would be moving table to table, and had set up my boxes so I could move the men on top of them, making them easy to access and move. As you can imagine, the two boxes were covered with infantry and vehicles. This butthole knew they were on the ground; he needed to look at my side of the table, moved like a freak, kicked my box, then stomped on two of my guys. He only said he was sorry; he did not offer to fix them or pay for them. SO not only did he not know the rules and was butt hurt he could not deal with my flyers, he also smashed two of my men for insult to injury. It was tied 4-4 in the 4th game turn, and if I could have kept zooming and been patient I could have got a draw or narrow victory.
I don't get your problem...first of all, we only know your version of the story. Maybe it was an accident. We don't know. Secondly: if you destroy sth. you have to pay for it. It's that simple. Ask him to get you new miniatures in a given period of time. If he refuses, sue him. It doesn't matter what someone breaks, but if someone destroys someone else's property, he has to pay up.
Furthermore, inform the guys at the store about his behavior in case they weren't aware of it.
To be fair, after reading your post, I don't think you are as innocent as you may think you are...your behavior wasn't correct either and overall, it's only 1 side of the coin we yet have.
WOW, after that, what do you guys think about that? I need some help, please!
1) Hmm...yes. I showed them in the BRB where it was at.
2) I will not say that I did not act as well as I should have, but after he smashed my men, I was already a little foul. PLUS, I am not sure I agree with the sweeping attacks rule. It needs to be FAQd against flyers. I just think its a common sense ruling that a chariot can't use an axe against a F16. Welcome to 40k right?
3) Ok, I see. It makes sense. I was not looking at it right...
4) It was an accident, but everyone in the store knew where my models were and had avoided them all day. Not sure how it could have been my fault. He did not mean to do it, but he should have been a person about it and offered restitution. I should have asked him to replace them, you are right. I am not going to sue him over 10 USD of necron warriors, and the store already knows. Sure, I was upset about my opponent smashing my guys, them trying to say I could not leave the field and go into ongoing reserves, and then they made a ruling that a flyer could be hit with a sweep attack...I was upset, but I am not sure how I was not innocent and not the wronged/damaged party...
AlmightyWalrus wrote:
The same way that an all-Grot army deals with a Land Raider. They don't. You have options, you just choose to not use them.
They can deal with literally everything else - horde, AV14, transport spam, 'cron dickage. But not flyers. See my point?
An all-grot army isn't exactly feasible against non-Land Raiders, nor do Grots have HQ, Troops, Fast Attack, Heavy and 2 special charectors devoted to them.
Your codex has options which help against a newly-available type of unit. If, for theme purposes, you choose not to use those options, that's your choice.
Testify wrote:Bottom line of this thread is - "My army can cope with flyers, so the fact that yours can't means you are an idiot".
Bottom line of this quote is - Testify is being unnecessarily hostile and aggressive, which may not be a productive strategy if you wish to elicit helpful responses.
Mannahnin wrote:Your codex has options which help against a newly-available type of unit. If, for theme purposes, you choose not to use those options, that's your choice.
Really, what things do deamons have that are twin-linked or have skyfire/interceptor?
Vector striking bloodthirsters is an urban myth. D3+1 S7 attacks against AV12 isn't worth your bloodthirster being dead next round, assuming you get to swoop anyway (i.e. you have enough space to get behind it, and you can pivot to face it).
Quad guns are a little better, though. They're still pretty unlikely to take down a flyer in a couple of turns. Works out at 0.5 glancing 0.5 penetrating hits per turn, assuming they all hit.
You must be able to see why people find this irritating. There is a threat that they only have one thing to use against, and they can only have one of it.
Having problems with tanks? Take some cheap MCs and smash them, or take some flamers to glance them to death, or some screamers.
Problem with horde? Flamers, nurgle spam, Soul Grinders.
Problem with MEQ? Deamonic Gaze, blootletters, flesh hounds.
Problem with flyers? ADL with Quad Gun. Thankyou and goodbye.
AlmightyWalrus wrote: The same way that an all-Grot army deals with a Land Raider. They don't. You have options, you just choose to not use them.
They can deal with literally everything else - horde, AV14, transport spam, 'cron dickage. But not flyers. See my point?
An all-grot army isn't exactly feasible against non-Land Raiders, nor do Grots have HQ, Troops, Fast Attack, Heavy and 2 special charectors devoted to them.
Don't Demons have anything in their entire codex to deal with flyers?
Anything S7+ TL? Vector striking MCs? Psyker powers that ignore shooting rules? Iirc there was that Smash power or sth. that normally hit flyers, ignoring their "only on a 6" special rule...
AlmightyWalrus wrote:
The same way that an all-Grot army deals with a Land Raider. They don't. You have options, you just choose to not use them.
They can deal with literally everything else - horde, AV14, transport spam, 'cron dickage. But not flyers. See my point?
An all-grot army isn't exactly feasible against non-Land Raiders, nor do Grots have HQ, Troops, Fast Attack, Heavy and 2 special charectors devoted to them.
Don't Demons have anything in their entire codex to deal with flyers?
Grey Templar wrote:Meanwhile, the Postal Service is struggling with a codex full of over-priced postal stamps and premade boxes.
post office seems kind of orky to me. More dakka to go postal.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Testify wrote:
Lothar wrote:
Wake up, people, THERE ARE PLENTY OF OPTIONS!
Find me a way that mono-Tzeentch can deal with av12 flyers without fortifications.
Chaos terminators with MoT, 10 man squad with 2 reaper autocannons and a ton of twin linked bolters. It costs 400 points but you DS in behind the flyer, hopefully in rapid fire range of a flyer and get 16twinlinked bolter shots and 4 twinlinked autocannon shots. Should get you a glance and a pen, which will kill said flyer. They might be able to jink out of it but flyers aren't great at killing TeQ with 2+/4++. If they have fateweavers reroll it would be even harder. Those 10 terminators can also string out and deny a lot of objectives late game while your rubric marines and horrors secure a few objectives.
Testify, aren't you looking at this a bit in the vacuum though?
No one is disputing that some armies got shafted in term of options to deal with flyers. But many have posted valid(or sounding valid) strategies to deal with flyers without using skyfire. For example, hordes could run into their zone and deny them the space to fly 18", and forcing the flyer to fly over them, with the exception of necron flyers, most would be shooting at scenaries after moving that far. Fast assault armies can also run into flyer's uncomfortable zone and attempt to deny/reduce attacks taken from flyers. Neither of those required any form of skyfire.
You seem to forget that when people take flyers, their points/slots that would otherwise go to bringing more/better ground units are gone. So an army with no flyers will outnumber/overpower the flyer army on ground. Then there is the fact that flyers come in on reserve(3+ is 67% chance, but you can still fail). Zooming flyers' lack of maneuverability plus front-facing guns for most flyers.
If anything, I'd say "my army's flyers are broken this game", broken as in nerfed. My jetfighter could begin the destruction on turn 1 last edition, and if I managed to last longer than 2 turns, I get a 3rd turn of shooting. Not to mention it serves as a diversion from my other units for all the turn that it's alive for. In 6th ed, any in-your-face army will be able to deny me of more than 2 turns of shooting easily.
Comes in on turn 2, shoot. Turn 3, back to reserve. Turn 4, shoot again if there is anything I could shoot at. Turn 5, back to reserve or something.
P.S. Why so determined to shoot them down? You can win by objective claiming for 5/6 games, or you can win by wiping the ground units while the flyers are in reserve!
I have yet to lose a game to an army with a flyer (other than necrons but they don't count) so I'm not really whinging about them being unbeatable.
It is entirely possible to win games when there is a vehicle zooming around with twin-linked assault cannons, hurricane bolters and some heavy bolters that's impossible for me to kill. But it's not very fun.
Sadly IG flyers aren't the worst out there.
Necrons and daemons.
Daemons 2 flying GD and 3 flying DPs.
Troops for objective hoping in second wave. The gds and dps assault everything they can.
Having used my Vendettas a fair bit I've found flyers to really not be overpowered as some people claim.
Thanks to their minimum move and limited turning you get 2 turns use (3 at best) before they're off the board or the enemies out of LOS.
At this point they can drop to Hover Mode to turn around, which makes them vulnerable, or fly off into ongoing reserve.
If they enter reserve you've then got the problem of the game ending (especially if they failed to turn up on turn 2) which will count them as being destroyed.
Testify wrote:I have yet to lose a game to an army with a flyer (other than necrons but they don't count) so I'm not really whinging about them being unbeatable.
It is entirely possible to win games when there is a vehicle zooming around with twin-linked assault cannons, hurricane bolters and some heavy bolters that's impossible for me to kill. But it's not very fun.
Well, ok then, but that is the "fault" of the opponent(if he/she is your friend, then I apologise if I've offended) though? And really, fun is hard to balanced, it's different for everyone... But, I wouldn't mind seeing more flyers or skyfire fortifications for other armies either.
Exergy wrote:
Chaos terminators with MoT, 10 man squad with 2 reaper autocannons and a ton of twin linked bolters. It costs 400 points but you DS in behind the flyer, hopefully in rapid fire range of a flyer and get 16twinlinked bolter shots and 4 twinlinked autocannon shots. Should get you a glance and a pen, which will kill said flyer. They might be able to jink out of it but flyers aren't great at killing TeQ with 2+/4++. If they have fateweavers reroll it would be even harder. Those 10 terminators can also string out and deny a lot of objectives late game while your rubric marines and horrors secure a few objectives.
Probably should have said, I meant deamons not Chaos Space Marines.
Great idea though, using a 400 point model to get 2 twin-linked autocannons at a 250 point AV12 vehicle. Let me know what other brainwaves you get.
Baronyu wrote:
Well, ok then, but that is the "fault" of the opponent(if he/she is your friend, then I apologise if I've offended) though? And really, fun is hard to balanced, it's different for everyone... But, I wouldn't mind seeing more flyers or skyfire fortifications for other armies either.
Well yeah i've never played against a friend who's bought more than one, so it's always been balanced. Back when i played mech guard, I wouldn't take Vendettas for similar reasons.
Exergy wrote:
Chaos terminators with MoT, 10 man squad with 2 reaper autocannons and a ton of twin linked bolters. It costs 400 points but you DS in behind the flyer, hopefully in rapid fire range of a flyer and get 16twinlinked bolter shots and 4 twinlinked autocannon shots. Should get you a glance and a pen, which will kill said flyer. They might be able to jink out of it but flyers aren't great at killing TeQ with 2+/4++. If they have fateweavers reroll it would be even harder. Those 10 terminators can also string out and deny a lot of objectives late game while your rubric marines and horrors secure a few objectives.
Probably should have said, I meant deamons not Chaos Space Marines.
Great idea though, using a 400 point model to get 2 twin-linked autocannons at a 250 point AV12 vehicle. Let me know what other brainwaves you get.
Against a storm raven you are going to want an Icarus Lascannon for 35 points. Str9 vs AV12, it will die eventually.
The Tzeench Teq would be good against light flyers that are likely to be spammed, and though they cost 400 points it's not like they are useless outside of shooting fliers.
As for mono tzeench daemon, that is a pretty limited list. You know what a Haemoculus coven has to take on fliers. Talos with TL heat lance! Woo, str6 melta. It can field 3 under 2000 points on slow MC with an 18" range. That will down a storm raven real quick.
Stormraven problem?
For mono tzeench what is wrong with taking 6 pink horror squads with bolts, 3 flying DP with bolts, and a herald or two with Bolt. Fateweaver who has bolt. 12bolts, 2 will hit, 3+ to do something to a storm raven. 4+ followed by 4+ to blow it to bits. Doesnt seem so bad.
UltraTacSgt wrote:
40k can in no way be compared to a real sport because in real sports it is talent and athleticism that the individual brings to the game, and that talent and athleticism is what makes the difference. In 40k tactics are what makes the difference and tactics are what the individual brings to the table; problem is some tactics are pricey.
In many real sports at a very competitive gear makes a big difference. The winner in many sports can be determined by sub second differences and having the better low drag suit, or better shoes or bike, engine, tyres or whatever can be the difference between gold and silver. Sure you have to be up there and able to compete at that level to start with, but once there more money and more high tech gear can be pretty important.
This is irrelevant to the discussion at this point but I will respond anyway.
I said real sports, not competitive activities. For something to be a real sport it has to be based on what the individual is bringing to the game. Biking and vehicle based "sports" don't really count because the individual is just operating their way to success, sure it takes some skills or endurance but hey, it takes some skills and endurance to do your taxes some years and it takes skills and endurance to be a parent and deal with children, and nobody is claiming those to be a sport. To a degree even competitive activities like biking could almost be validated as sports because, after a certain level, everyone is riding roughly equivalent bikes and it comes down to the rider.
Bottom line, in a real sport the equipment is more or less equivalent for all competitors (basketball, baseball, football, grass-fairy ball...I mean soccer, golf, and even weak sports like swimming all make this cut). In a real sport, better equipment can help a bit, sure, but it won't be even close to enough to tip the scales in your favor if you are playing against equally skilled and equipped competition.
If something is based as much on equipment as it is on the individual competitor, then it is a competitive activity. It's just called a sport to validate it.
To tie this back to 40k: The game of 40k is two things, a hobby, and a strategy game. There is no implicit fairness. You make your list and you deal with the strengths and weaknesses. Any army, no matter how strong or broken it appears to be can be countered and defeated.
The "flyers are broken" argument is only valid in reference to people who go over the top and drop tons of cash to spam flyers against people who can't or won't spend the money to re-tool their whole army to counter flyers appropriately. People who do this are literally pathetic nobs so who cares, feel bad for them for being that willing to buy a victory and then just play other people who are more respectable players.
And remember to keep in mind that once the new codices come out, flyers will be just like any other unit, and will have strengths, weaknesses, and counters.
1) They said that I could not move off the table with my flyers. I explained that I could zoom 18 to 36", making me a zooming flyer, and that if I moved flat out in the shooting phase, I, as a zooming flyer, could voluntarily move off the field and go to ongoing reserves. They allowed me to do it, but they (my necron opponent and the tourney staff) said it was illegal.
2) My opponent said that he could take his necron chariot (command barge) and sweeping attack my flyers. I told him you can not assault a flyer. He said I am not assaulting it; just using a sweep attack to hit it with close combat attacks. SO, the tourney official allowed him to hit my flyer with close combat attacks from the chariot. He said he flew over my flyer. I did not agree, and said I will compromise. You can hit me on a 6 like everyone else. He said I hit you on a 4+. I just started picking up my models.
3) I am not sure I agree with this, but one other necron player there (who agreed with my interpretations above) said that jink should improve. I asked him why, and he said that if a skimmer moves flat out, the save should be 4+. Does the jink save for a flyer improve with movement?
4) This next point of contention is more of a pet peeve of politeness. As you can imagine, the game store was really full and space was a premium. I, as a seasoned player, knew I would be moving table to table, and had set up my boxes so I could move the men on top of them, making them easy to access and move. As you can imagine, the two boxes were covered with infantry and vehicles. This butthole knew they were on the ground; he needed to look at my side of the table, moved like a freak, kicked my box, then stomped on two of my guys. He only said he was sorry; he did not offer to fix them or pay for them. SO not only did he not know the rules and was butt hurt he could not deal with my flyers, he also smashed two of my men for insult to injury. It was tied 4-4 in the 4th game turn, and if I could have kept zooming and been patient I could have got a draw or narrow victory.
WOW, after that, what do you guys think about that? I need some help, please!
1. You can move off the table during your zoom move. Since flatout is not part of your zoom move you cant move off the table with it.
2/ Yes he was right on this one and it hits on fixed numbers as it says in the rulebook. It also specifically says that they are not CC attacks but use the profile of the CC weapon
3. Yes it does as the jink rule just improves if you moved flatout
4. It is quite easy to miss models on the ground. I always put em on the chair. Stuff always happens as you said in the cramped space. I think his lack of curtesy was more to do with the fact that you guys were contesting rules the entire time more so than being intentional. But I was not there so no further comment.
AlmightyWalrus wrote:
The same way that an all-Grot army deals with a Land Raider. They don't. You have options, you just choose to not use them.
They can deal with literally everything else - horde, AV14, transport spam, 'cron dickage. But not flyers. See my point?
An all-grot army isn't exactly feasible against non-Land Raiders, nor do Grots have HQ, Troops, Fast Attack, Heavy and 2 special charectors devoted to them.
Don't Demons have anything in their entire codex to deal with flyers?
Nothing Twin-Linked. Vector strike is at best S7, and no psker powers.
If you take Fury of Khorne you gain rending while doing it for a potential AP2 (It doesn't list it as unable to do so, just that it hits unmodified strength and at AP3)
Well not sure if this has been posted b4 but in regard to te page one hydra vs fliers price thing in new Zealand dollars those 6 fliers are 775 dollars and the 9 hydras are 751.05 cents which makes the hydras cheaper which completely takes all the validity from the ops argument!
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also fwahahahaha necrons are the shizzlenizzle with the release of the new books, but not as shizzlewizzle as the old monolithspam lists.
Leth wrote:
1. You can move off the table during your zoom move. Since flatout is not part of your zoom move you cant move off the table with it.
2/ Yes he was right on this one and it hits on fixed numbers as it says in the rulebook. It also specifically says that they are not CC attacks but use the profile of the CC weapon
3. Yes it does as the jink rule just improves if you moved flatout
4. It is quite easy to miss models on the ground. I always put em on the chair. Stuff always happens as you said in the cramped space. I think his lack of curtesy was more to do with the fact that you guys were contesting rules the entire time more so than being intentional. But I was not there so no further comment.
1) Ok, I am going to check with the rule boys and wait for a FAQ. I guess I will have to play it like that until then. It does not make sense that a flyer cannot voluntarily exit the field, but 40k does not make sense.
2) Hmm...again, I do not agree, but again, we will have to wait for a FAQ. I guess I can see both sides, but a chariot still has to move over a flyer right, not the base. SO, would he not have to measure up and over the flyer to 'move over' the unit, as described under chariots? To do that, if possible, he would have to be really close to the flyer right?
3) Ok, I was not reading it right.
4) Hmm...they were on a green and gold box about 1.5' high; the box was on the ground. My army is pretty big, so its tough to miss. Yes, he was a butt hole, but it was an accident. Not the whole time, but he did not like the fact that I would not dismount the infantry to get chopped up by his assault units.
lordybarbo wrote:
1) Ok, I am going to check with the rule boys and wait for a FAQ. I guess I will have to play it like that until then. It does not make sense that a flyer cannot voluntarily exit the field, but 40k does not make sense.
2) Hmm...again, I do not agree, but again, we will have to wait for a FAQ. I guess I can see both sides, but a chariot still has to move over a flyer right, not the base. SO, would he not have to measure up and over the flyer to 'move over' the unit, as described under chariots? To do that, if possible, he would have to be really close to the flyer right?
3) Ok, I was not reading it right.
4) Hmm...they were on a green and gold box about 1.5' high; the box was on the ground. My army is pretty big, so its tough to miss. Yes, he was a butt hole, but it was an accident. Not the whole time, but he did not like the fact that I would not dismount the infantry to get chopped up by his assault units.
1 - They CAN voluntarily move off the table entering "ongoing reserves" (pg 81 BRB).... just not with their Flat Out portion of movement (so you have 18-36 " to do it). also note - the turn you come in from reserves, you may not leave the table. (pg80 BRB)
***It's pretty awful that your TO hasn't read the rulebook enough to know what flyers can and can't do. How can one run a Tournament and have zero concept of the rules?
2 - Yep, that's how it works. You may not agree with it, but that is exactly how the the rules work, and if the visual concept is the issue think of it as the chariot is swooping under the flyer, slicing upwards.. gutting it. This may get nerfed in a few months when new FAQs drop (and I assume we get more skyfire options game-wide... but don't hold your breathe), but even now it is only useful within that 12" movement... so it's relatively easy to mitigate with the flyers. Just watch out for the people who know the art of "clipping" - It is a way of life for swoop attacks
3 - I do think that you only get the jink save if you evade - a small distinction, but very important (pg 81 BRB)
4 - I tend to think you guys were bickering so much during the game that your opponent decided to be a turd and "accidentally" step on your dudes. Poor Form.
I don't think your issues stem from game discrepancies as much as a poorly run tournament. Overall, while your showing was good in the tournament, I honestly wouldn't bother going back there (unless of course it is your only FLGS). Find a better place where the TOs know the rules. If you had a clear and firm TO, I bet there would have been less bickering, and there for maybe no ruined models.
After all, even if you don't agree with the TO (which you didn't for some rulings), at least it is fair ground and everyone is playing on a level field. I get the impression, you got to lobby your requests back and forth to a TO who hadn't read the book fully and really grasp the rules. Maybe it was too early for them to run this tourney.
Next time I would bring up these controversial rulings, or questions to the TO prior to ever deploying or even paying my entry fee. I want to ensure I know the rules before playing a game and not be hamstrung by some off the wall ruling by a TO who doesn't know how to play.
Gangrel767 wrote:
1 - They CAN voluntarily move off the table entering "ongoing reserves" (pg 81 BRB).... just not with their Flat Out portion of movement (so you have 18-36 " to do it). also note - the turn you come in from reserves, you may not leave the table. (pg80 BRB)
***It's pretty awful that your TO hasn't read the rulebook enough to know what flyers can and can't do. How can one run a Tournament and have zero concept of the rules?
2 - Yep, that's how it works. You may not agree with it, but that is exactly how the the rules work, and if the visual concept is the issue think of it as the chariot is swooping under the flyer, slicing upwards.. gutting it. This may get nerfed in a few months when new FAQs drop (and I assume we get more skyfire options game-wide... but don't hold your breathe), but even now it is only useful within that 12" movement... so it's relatively easy to mitigate with the flyers. Just watch out for the people who know the art of "clipping" - It is a way of life for swoop attacks
3 - I do think that you only get the jink save if you evade - a small distinction, but very important (pg 81 BRB)
4 - I tend to think you guys were bickering so much during the game that your opponent decided to be a turd and "accidentally" step on your dudes. Poor Form.
I don't think your issues stem from game discrepancies as much as a poorly run tournament. Overall, while your showing was good in the tournament, I honestly wouldn't bother going back there (unless of course it is your only FLGS). Find a better place where the TOs know the rules. If you had a clear and firm TO, I bet there would have been less bickering, and there for maybe no ruined models.
After all, even if you don't agree with the TO (which you didn't for some rulings), at least it is fair ground and everyone is playing on a level field. I get the impression, you got to lobby your requests back and forth to a TO who hadn't read the book fully and really grasp the rules. Maybe it was too early for them to run this tourney.
Next time I would bring up these controversial rulings, or questions to the TO prior to ever deploying or even paying my entry fee. I want to ensure I know the rules before playing a game and not be hamstrung by some off the wall ruling by a TO who doesn't know how to play.
Just my 2 cents.
-----------------
P.S. Your army looks great!
Hey!
1) Ok, I'm still up in the air on this; I called GW today (I know the rules boys don't know everything and are no true authority. I did it for a point of reference.) and they said that the flat out move could be used to remove the flyer from the table. He explained that, the way they had been playing it at the GW offices, the difference was that the flyer was already zooming and making a zoom move, even if it goes flat out; a flyer that is in "hover" or functioning as a skimmer [whatever the exact language is] cannot move off of the table. I will look at the rule again when I get home. I see what you are saying, but it is just typical GW rules that need clarification. Yes, the TOs did not seem to know what they were doing. It was his first tourney, and our first with the new rules. HAHA! not just the TO, I should have known the rules better, right? It was my first time to play Necrons since 2003, and the Newcrons are not like Necrons. I did not get any 6th ed practice matches, except one, and that was with DE.
2) I will look at it again too. I asked the GW guy about that too, and he said, that at GW, they do not play it that way. He did say that it would have to "move over" [not under] the flyer [because the base is ignored] as described in the sweeping attack rules, so it would have to be pretty close to do it. He said that the rules there were murky and he did not want to give me a definitive answer. Yes, if I had one, I would try to clip too!
3) That's kind of what I was thinking after reading Jink, but everyone else, including a fellow necron player at the tournament, seems to think that Jink goes to 4+. I thought that when you nominated to evade, you only benefitted from the 5+ regardless of movement. We will need a FAQ on that too, imagine that...
4) I kinda agree with you, but it may have just been an honest accident. BUT he could have offered to pay for the damage or replace the men [which he did not]. AND his army was kept in a box lid, piled up with no respect, and his entire army was unpainted. He used a rubber band to hold his lord on the chariot for crying out loud. I do not have much respect for those sorts of players. Right or wrong, I am of the old GT circuit mentality that tournament armies need to be painted, themed, have good composition, and have three colors. That's part of the experience: seeing nicely painted armies on the field. Maybe he was jealous...
You have made a lot of good points that I will take to heart.
Thanks for the compliment. I wanted to post it so people could see exactly what I was talking about. It is certainly not small, easy to miss, or hard to spot! After looking at the pic, I am certain that it is easier for people to understand why I was so upset to begin with...
Gangrel767 wrote:1 - A valid point... a zooming flyer would always count as zooming, and the hover ability does change the scenario. I think that's a fair call.
2 - Yes, it would still have to swoop over the model, I was merely describing it a little differently to help with the physics. lol
3 - According to the Jink rule... if the evading flyer has gone flat out, it would get a 4+ (pg38 BRB), but if it just zoomed... it would be a 5+
Hopefully, the next event there goes a little smoother for you!
With the new daemon drop, these chariot issues will need to be sorted out soon.
Thanks again for your help; sometimes you just need a third party to look at things from a different perspective.
Yes, I hope that it will go smoothly as well.
The Newcron list is powerful, and the flyers do make a difference in mobility. BUT soon enough, there will be AAA available to everyone. However, even Anti-Air Artillery cannot limit the mobility; it can only try to wing one of them.
Yes, I did not even think about that. They will have to do something to sort it out before then!
lordybarbo wrote:Thanks again for your help; sometimes you just need a third party to look at things from a different perspective.
No Problem. This is the core of why I like Dakka Dakka over most other forums... while there is some flammage, mostly people are really just trying to get the rules down pat and help each other. We should be a community of wargamers, supporting and helping each other, keeping the hobby alive and helping it to be inviting for new players. At least, that's what I try to do when I post.
My thoughts on the Original Topic: "flyers have broken this game" - I just don't believe it to be true. They certainly have changed the game, but I think that the flyers are almost the counter-point to the other amazing ability we gained in 6th... making incredible deathstars. Now I know Nids don't get to take advantage of this as much, but I have seen some incredible deathstar lists come out of the allies rules, and even just how Close Combat weapons work now (meaning AP values) makes 2+ armour vicious.
BUT No matter how incredible your Deathstar now is... they can NOT assault that flyer... and conversely that Flyer will almost never be able to score. (with obvious exceptions)
The key here is list design. You need to be very strategic with your unit choices, knowing full well that your enemy may have flyers. I honestly think balanced and well thought out lists have a tremendous advantage in 6th edition, even with flyer spam and deathstar lists running around. With the great variance of units now available through new model drops or through allies, you either need to subscribe to one of the gimmicks (deathstars or flyers etc...) or make balanced lists.
I personally am not a fan of Fortifications or Allies... not because i think it's broken or dumb or anything like this, but just because my personal preference a majority of the time is having more dudes on the table, and usually the most economical way to do this is to stick with your Primary Detachment, and not get fancy.... BUT... there are some great flyer solutions in those options, and often ones flyers even have a hard time coping with.
Also, another thing to note is that fact that mysterious objectives can give you skyfire as well, and while not 100% dependable, it is something you need to remember and use tactics to get there if need be.
I have played a few games with my Night Scythes and my buddy with his DakkaJet, and one BIG thing we have noticed and something that isn't addressed as much on here as it is on dedicated Eldar forums, is that flyers LOS is limited, especially since they can only pivot before moving. It is not hard to get out of the LOS of a flyer, therfor limiting this vehicle to only shooting 2 or 3 turns in a game.
I know none of these solutions on their own seem to solve the flyer problem, but when you have 100 little solutions that also means that your opponent doesn't have a hard counter for you either. In other words, if you only had two hydras, those will be the flyers first targets, but if you had those two hydras... with fortifications... and a skyfire objective... and some massed STR 4+ gunfire, you have a plethora of options and no one thing your opponent can destroy. (a key to a powerful list IMHO)
There is a batrep on the Frontlinegaming channel on youtube, where they run a Draigo Paladin list vs a Necron flyer list (7 or 8 flyers)... the Paladins win without killing a model, because flyers can't score, claim objectives, etc... and the piddly units inside were not stalwart enough to stand up to an army of paladins. This is one example of the extremes, and how a balanced list could probably have had a great chance vs either list. I'm not affiliated with them, but you should check it out if you haven't had a chance to see a flying circus (all flyer) list.
Well said Gangrel, nice to see some proper game experience and logic applied to the situation. Flyers are certainly powerful, but their limitations mean every army has a potential counter.
I completely agree with you about the community, and maybe one day, we will be able to play a match.
I, like you, believe that flyers have changed this game, and that every army will have to get away from napoleonic warfare and be prepared to face vertical envelopment/air attack, what ever shape/form that may take.
Yes, the most important choices for the modern 40k commander will be the strategic ones/list design.
I am not a big fan of the allies or fortification rules, but I think its ok that people now have that option. Forts are monuments to people's stupidity anyway, right?
As a newcron player, yes, AAA is my primary target.
6th edition flyers are like 5th edition GK pallies, shoot them, lots. Granted, easier said than done with some armies, but options are available for each. Gunning down a transport full of troops has its own rewards too.
Flyers have "broken" the game the same way IA units integration pre 6th ed, leafblower armies, and GK has broken the game.
The thing about games, is really, nothing can break anything, because if flyers are simply as "broken" as you claim to be, then everyone will just take flyers.
If everyone brought "broken" units, is the game broken? hell no.
1) I was in the game store today, and they (people in the store) told me that half of my necron infantry had to be deployed and that it could not be held in reserve. I looked to the reserve rules, on page 124, and it says "a unit and its dedicated transport" form "a single unit" for reserve purposes. They said I still had to deploy half of the infantry, even though, my night scythes, upon [or through] which they were deployed, had to go into reserves. Do I have to deal with this or can my infantry go to reserve with their transport? I ignore that, right, as my dedicated transports and infantry are one unit, and are forced to reserves?
2) The next bit of insanity is this: They {the people, unwashed masses, or fat ogres or some damn thing, at the game store} said that my Newcron infantry could not mount the night scythes. They said that the entry for night scythes, in the Newcron book, pages 51 and 91, says that it "has a transport capacity of 15. It can carry jump infantry...and jetbikes [with no provision yet on how]." It does not specifically state the straight leg infantry can ride. Even though it clearly says newcron warriors "may take either...night scythe as a dedicated transport." How can they argue that the night scythe cannot transport the warriors?
Is it just me or are these people just reaching? We had to endure the "Death star" now they must endure the "Scythe flying circus!"
Sounds like they are REALLY reaching, as well as making up some extra bits on their own. I dont own the current dex, but if it says in their codex entry they can take said transport as a dedicated transport then yea, they can take it as such, no if ands or buts. And as far as I know, if you buy a dedicated transport for a squad, they are in that transport. Ive never seen nor heard a rule where you have to have all your infantry outside of the transports like you said.
All that says is that it can carry those things. It is not exclusive of other types joining. And since infantry have permission to enter transports in the main rules its perfectly fine.
KingCracker, you are right, BUT, in classic GW style, we are left to speculate, as it does not specifically say the infantry can ride their own transport.
Again, RAW vs RAI...
Yes, they were making up crap and looking dumb, but they do, sadly, have a point.
1) As per the rules they form one unit, but what if one half has to go to reserves? I say round up or ignore it, as they are on dedicated transports, and, hell, I paid the points for them. They should be able to ride.
2) It does not specifically say the newcron warriors "can" ride. It says jump packers "can" and jetbikes "can" but it does not say infantry "can."
Do you think I am blowing this out of proportion, or do I have a legitimate gripe?
I guess you figured me out, but I think they are full of it.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Grey Templar,
I agree with you, but their argument is that the rules do not specifically say infantry, or the dedicated squad, can ride their own transport.
How do you argue with logic, or fat ogres, like that?
Then you must never allow them to let their IG ride in Chimeras and Space Marines ride Rhinos or Razorbacks. Eldar can't ride in Wave Serpents or Falcons. And Dark Eldar cannot ride in Venoms or Raiders. Orks may not ride in Trukks, Battlewagons, or Looted Wagons.
On page 78, BRB, in big letters, it reads, "some vehicles can carry infantry...," "a transport can carry a single infantry unit..." and only "infantry models can embark upon transports."
For giggles, I checked. A Night Scythe is indeed a transport, and Warriors are, you guessed it, infantry.
So I guess the fat ogre engineers were wrong after all...
Thanks so much for playing...Hyraam, show them what they've won...a new Night Scythe...but you can't drive it...
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Grey Templar wrote:Then you must never allow them to let their IG ride in Chimeras and Space Marines ride Rhinos or Razorbacks. Eldar can't ride in Wave Serpents or Falcons. And Dark Eldar cannot ride in Venoms or Raiders. Orks may not ride in Trukks, Battlewagons, or Looted Wagons.
Nice, Grey Templar!
Great minds think alike, as that is, or was, my exact argument.
I think we figured it out; we will not have to worry about the fat ogre foolishness anymore, now that reason and rules, as opposed to reaching and revising, prevail.
1) I was in the game store today, and they (people in the store) told me that half of my necron infantry had to be deployed and that it could not be held in reserve. I looked to the reserve rules, on page 124, and it says "a unit and its dedicated transport" form "a single unit" for reserve purposes. They said I still had to deploy half of the infantry, even though, my night scythes, upon [or through] which they were deployed, had to go into reserves. Do I have to deal with this or can my infantry go to reserve with their transport? I ignore that, right, as my dedicated transports and infantry are one unit, and are forced to reserves?
This is correct (what they said, not what you said, and it is depending on the rest of the list). Scythes have to go in reserve, and yes for deciding reserves units and their dedicated transport are counted as one, but none of that equates to the Warriors being forced into reserve and thus not counting. So if putting all your Warriors into reserve puts more than half your army in reserve then it is illegal. Usually not a big deal anyway.
lordybarbo wrote:2) The next bit of insanity is this: They {the people, unwashed masses, or fat ogres or some damn thing, at the game store} said that my Newcron infantry could not mount the night scythes. They said that the entry for night scythes, in the Newcron book, pages 51 and 91, says that it "has a transport capacity of 15. It can carry jump infantry...and jetbikes [with no provision yet on how]." It does not specifically state the straight leg infantry can ride. Even though it clearly says newcron warriors "may take either...night scythe as a dedicated transport." How can they argue that the night scythe cannot transport the warriors?
Is it just me or are these people just reaching? We had to endure the "Death star" now they must endure the "Scythe flying circus!"
This is not correct however, of course they can be mounted in them.
lordybarbo wrote:KingCracker, you are right, BUT, in classic GW style, we are left to speculate, as it does not specifically say the infantry can ride their own transport.
Again, RAW vs RAI...
Yes, they were making up crap and looking dumb, but they do, sadly, have a point.
1) As per the rules they form one unit, but what if one half has to go to reserves? I say round up or ignore it, as they are on dedicated transports, and, hell, I paid the points for them. They should be able to ride.
2) It does not specifically say the newcron warriors "can" ride. It says jump packers "can" and jetbikes "can" but it does not say infantry "can."
Do you think I am blowing this out of proportion, or do I have a legitimate gripe?
I guess you figured me out, but I think they are full of it.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Grey Templar,
I agree with you, but their argument is that the rules do not specifically say infantry, or the dedicated squad, can ride their own transport.
How do you argue with logic, or fat ogres, like that?
You argue with them, by pointing out that a rhino doesn't SAY that infantry can ride in it, but no one who has EVER played 40k would say my tacs can't ride it. You also show them the page where a unit and it's dedicated transport count as 1 unit for reserves, and because the flyers have to be reserves, they can be held in there flyers. You can also (if you have it) show them a WD necron battle report where they held there warriors or imortals, in there flyers, in reserves.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Godless-Mimicry wrote:
lordybarbo wrote:Ok, you will not believe this...
1) I was in the game store today, and they (people in the store) told me that half of my necron infantry had to be deployed and that it could not be held in reserve. I looked to the reserve rules, on page 124, and it says "a unit and its dedicated transport" form "a single unit" for reserve purposes. They said I still had to deploy half of the infantry, even though, my night scythes, upon [or through] which they were deployed, had to go into reserves. Do I have to deal with this or can my infantry go to reserve with their transport? I ignore that, right, as my dedicated transports and infantry are one unit, and are forced to reserves?
This is correct (what they said, not what you said, and it is depending on the rest of the list). Scythes have to go in reserve, and yes for deciding reserves units and their dedicated transport are counted as one, but none of that equates to the Warriors being forced into reserve and thus not counting. So if putting all your Warriors into reserve puts more than half your army in reserve then it is illegal. Usually not a big deal anyway.
Then, if I have a drop pod army, must I still have half my army on the table?
Agreed with the white dwarf as a last resort. I had a PDF copy of a white dwarf match between Orks and something else, showing that in the WD battle, the KFF did indeed grant vehicles a 4+ cover save. AS WELL AS a PDF copy of a changes to 5th edition cover sheet from GW that said the KFF granted 4+ to vehicles and a 5+ to non vehicle units. That was such a huge fething debate that it got stupid. So, there ya go. 40K just shows that people like GWAR! are still alive and well. fething ignorant jerk offs.
Armadeus wrote:Then, if I have a drop pod army, must I still have half my army on the table?
I'd have to read the Droppod Assault rules in the SM Codex, as they may make allowances for this sort of thing, I just don't know the exact ruling until I check it.
Godless-Mimicry wrote:
This is correct (what they said, not what you said, and it is depending on the rest of the list). Scythes have to go in reserve, and yes for deciding reserves units and their dedicated transport are counted as one, but none of that equates to the Warriors being forced into reserve and thus not counting. So if putting all your Warriors into reserve puts more than half your army in reserve then it is illegal. Usually not a big deal anyway.
Not how I read it. Units that must start in reserve do not count to the half deployment. units and their dedicated transport count as a single unit for this purpose. The dedicated transport must start in reserve so the transport and the unit that goes in it do not count towards half deployment.
If have 5 warrior squads and scythes then I have 5 units, as the warriors and the scythe count as a single unit. 5 units must start in reserve and do not count to 50% deployment, so I needn't deploy anything, as (5 - 5)/2 = 0.
Godless-Mimicry wrote:
This is correct (what they said, not what you said, and it is depending on the rest of the list). Scythes have to go in reserve, and yes for deciding reserves units and their dedicated transport are counted as one, but none of that equates to the Warriors being forced into reserve and thus not counting. So if putting all your Warriors into reserve puts more than half your army in reserve then it is illegal. Usually not a big deal anyway.
Not how I read it. Units that must start in reserve do not count to the half deployment. units and their dedicated transport count as a single unit for this purpose. The dedicated transport must start in reserve so the transport and the unit that goes in it do not count towards half deployment.
If have 5 warrior squads and scythes then I have 5 units, as the warriors and the scythe count as a single unit. 5 units must start in reserve and do not count to 50% deployment, so I needn't deploy anything, as (5 - 5)/2 = 0.
Yes, exactly. BUT you are forced to deploy something, so you don't get tabled.
I intend to do something like that, but I will deploy tomb spyders to prevent that.
puree wrote:
Not how I read it. Units that must start in reserve do not count to the half deployment. units and their dedicated transport count as a single unit for this purpose. The dedicated transport must start in reserve so the transport and the unit that goes in it do not count towards half deployment.
If have 5 warrior squads and scythes then I have 5 units, as the warriors and the scythe count as a single unit. 5 units must start in reserve and do not count to 50% deployment, so I needn't deploy anything, as (5 - 5)/2 = 0.
Yes, exactly. BUT you are forced to deploy something, so you don't get tabled.
That being a different argument, not related to what you are required to deploy.
Armadeus wrote:Then, if I have a drop pod army, must I still have half my army on the table?
I'd have to read the Droppod Assault rules in the SM Codex, as they may make allowances for this sort of thing, I just don't know the exact ruling until I check it.
It is under deepstrike in the rulebook. There is a sentence that excludes all models that are in drop pods from reserve counts.
puree wrote:Not how I read it. Units that must start in reserve do not count to the half deployment. units and their dedicated transport count as a single unit for this purpose. The dedicated transport must start in reserve so the transport and the unit that goes in it do not count towards half deployment.
This is the equivalent of saying 2 + 2 = 5, because none of that stuff equates to the Warriors being forced into reserve.
MFletch wrote:
Godless-Mimicry wrote:
Armadeus wrote:Then, if I have a drop pod army, must I still have half my army on the table?
I'd have to read the Droppod Assault rules in the SM Codex, as they may make allowances for this sort of thing, I just don't know the exact ruling until I check it.
It is under deepstrike in the rulebook. There is a sentence that excludes all models that are in drop pods from reserve counts.
Thanks for that. Saved me the trouble. Also gives more creedance to my argument above, as why would they go to lengths to exclude Drop Pod units but not units with dedicated flyers?
Luide wrote:White Dwarf battlereports get rules wrong so often that they're not credible source.
For example, see WD battle report where they play Chaos Space Marine Daemon Princes as FMC instead of Jump MC.
I thought they were FMC?
*apparently they are jump MC. Besides, that is a fall back that anyone that doesnt agree with how rules actually work use. "Oh yea, well they get rules wrong, so therefore the rules dont ever work that way and your wrong" Sure.........
Godless-Mimicry wrote:Thanks for that. Saved me the trouble. Also gives more creedance to my argument above, as why would they go to lengths to exclude Drop Pod units but not units with dedicated flyers?
That is a whole different discussion. They hid a sentence in that is there just to allow drop pods to have a full reserve army. This is just not cricket, making an exception for just one unit.
Also do not get me involved.
DT and their unit count as a "single unit for these purposes". As a unit it has to start in reserve, so doesn't count to the total. It is fairly clear. It does mean you can only have one IC and you will auto lose first turn if you have just necron flyers. Take some orks to keep you alive reserve the rest. In fact I would be happy smacking down in a drop pod of runepriest, Logan and rockfist with your necron flyers, they just have to stay alive until the end where your flyers can jump onto objectives.
Crazy ideas about space wolves and necrons do not make me any less correct.
none of that stuff equates to the Warriors being forced into reserve.
The dedicated transport in this case must start in reserve.
A unit with its dedicated transport must be counted as a single unit for purposes of counting what you must deploy.
A unit that must start in reserve does not count for determining what you must deploy.
As the combined 'single' unit must start in reserve it does not count for what you must deploy.
Indeed, whilst I haven't checked it up, I don't think you can split a unit and its DT so that one starts depoyed and the other is in reserve. Following your argument you would be forced to do that, which by my current understanding would be illegal (correct me if I'm wrong on splitting the unit, one to the board the other to reserve).
Maybe you could explain how you are coming to the conclusion you are. Then we can see why we are seeing things differently.
puree wrote:The dedicated transport in this case must start in reserve.
A unit with its dedicated transport must be counted as a single unit for purposes of counting what you must deploy.
A unit that must start in reserve does not count for determining what you must deploy.
As the combined 'single' unit must start in reserve it does not count for what you must deploy.
Adding the word 'must' into rules where it isn't there in the book doesn't make you right. It doesn't say units and their ride 'must' count as one, it doesn't say units 'must' start in their ride, it doesn't say a unit with a ride that must go in reserve 'must' also go in reserves, it doesn't say a unit and their transport 'must' both be deployed or in reserve together. Which is where the issue is; people are acting like they can do it because it is mandatory, and that's the excuse they are using, but it isn't mandatory, they are choosing to do something that the rules as written disallow.
puree wrote:The dedicated transport in this case must start in reserve.
A unit with its dedicated transport must be counted as a single unit for purposes of counting what you must deploy.
A unit that must start in reserve does not count for determining what you must deploy.
As the combined 'single' unit must start in reserve it does not count for what you must deploy.
Adding the word 'must' into rules where it isn't there in the book doesn't make you right. It doesn't say units and their ride 'must' count as one, it doesn't say units 'must' start in their ride, it doesn't say a unit with a ride that must go in reserve 'must' also go in reserves, it doesn't say a unit and their transport 'must' both be deployed or in reserve together. Which is where the issue is; people are acting like they can do it because it is mandatory, and that's the excuse they are using, but it isn't mandatory, they are choosing to do something that the rules as written disallow.
Objection your honor!
If it could please the bench, on page 80, paragraph one, line one, under flyers, states, "flyers MUST begin the game in reserve..."
On page 124, of the Reserves rule, paragraph two, line three, states, "Units that MUST start the game in reserve..."
On the same page, your honor, lines 5-6, simply declares, "A unit and its Dedicated Transport are counted as a single unit for these purposes."
With all due respect, I must ask the bench for a directed verdict, as my client has proven his position beyond a reasonable doubt and the point has been made "fairly clear."
Godless-Mimicry wrote:It doesn't say units and their ride 'must' count as one,
Effectively it does, it says they count as one for these purposes, it never gives you any option to not count them as one. There is no such wording as 'may', 'can', 'choose'. They simply are counted as one for reserve deployment purposes.
By my reading that means that if one element of the duo must start in reserve then neither unit counts towards the 50%. And that, whilst I openly admit I may be wrong, I think it means that they must both deploy or both not deploy at the start, as they count as a single unit.
heckler wrote:it has been FAQ'd that a unit may deploy normally instead of using it's drop pod.
however, i do agree that they would not count as a unit deployed normally due to being counted as the same unit as the drop pod.
The rule says any model in a drop pod. Not just the unit. Drop pods are special, for some reason.
[I know I have said the same thing above, but anyway]
did you hover your flyer in front of pedro kantor?"
).
Anyone QQ'ing could also go to forgeworld. Their flyers are stellar, and most armies can field one (at least) of them.
