I found myself with a most peculiar thought earlier today. Of the Space Marine Chapters, which is the best in hand to hand combat?

When i think of CC and Space Marines, 3 Chapters specifically come to mind, Black Templars, Blood Angels and Space Wolves. Now, disregarding the table top stats of the models themselves, fluffwise which do you think is the strongest or most skilled when it comes to the blade? If you feel another is worthy of the title, write it in and explain why!
Now...GO!

Hand to hand, physically Space Wolves probably have the advantage in unarmed combat due to their enhanced senses etc.

In close combat (armed), then of the known Chapters it's probably Minotaurs, Blood Angels or Carcharadons IMHO.
There's no one definitive answer however.

SW all the way, like my friend Dave said and BA of course...

I think Just Dave summed it up pretty well, those are pretty much the most brutal chapter the Imperium has at it's disposal, especially with the Minotaurs being rumored to have been created from World Eaters geneseed stock.

Minotaurs all the way. M41 and still running around with chain axes despite being loyalists.

The Salamanders are fairly adept, they utilize close range firepower and then combat to break their foes.

Salamanders are pretty awesome, but in a straight up CC fight they are definitely at a disadvantage against the others already mentioned.

riverhawks32 wrote:The Salamanders are fairly adept, they utilize close range firepower and then combat to break their foes.

Bear in mind that shooting isn't strictly close combat (rather close quarters) and that Sallies have typically slower (than your average astartes) reaction times...

I suppose Grey Knights don't count?

No one mentioned them yet???

Flesh Tearers! The name says it all.

I suppose if the OP is looking for the strongest or most skilled with a blade, I would have to go with the Black Templars. Blood Angels and Space Wolves both favor close combat so their training and skill reflects that, but in both cases it is their fury that defines their dominance, not necessarily swordsmanship. That's where the BT come in.

Manchu wrote:No one mentioned them yet???

Flesh Tearers! The name says it all.

good point, I can't believe I forgot to mention them. Blood for the Blood Emperor and all that.

Brother Heinrich wrote:

Manchu wrote:No one mentioned them yet???

Flesh Tearers! The name says it all.

good point, I can't believe I forgot to mention them. Blood for the Blood Emperor and all that.

Haha nice
Yeah, what I was going for is more which do you feel is overall the most EFFECTIVE in close combat as a whole, I could see the Minotaurs or Flesh Tearers easily being in the rankings I suppose

Flesh Tearers
Minotaurs
Carcaradons
Space Wolfs
Black Templar's
Red Scorpions

With the Fleshtearers, I have a feeling "mouth to hand" would be more accurate...

Those guys are just creepy, but undoubtedly effective. Even the Orks learned to fear them, and that's gotta mean something.

iGuy91 wrote:

Brother Heinrich wrote:

Manchu wrote:No one mentioned them yet???
Flesh Tearers! The name says it all.

good point, I can't believe I forgot to mention them. Blood for the Blood Emperor and all that.

Haha nice
Yeah, what I was going for is more which do you feel is overall the most EFFECTIVE in close combat as a whole, I could see the Minotaurs or Flesh Tearers easily being in the rankings I suppose

Well if you want EFFECTIVE, I'd cast my vote for either Minotaurs or Carcharodons, The Minotaurs are extremely well back by the lords of Terra, they always have a plentiful supply of equipment and are used as enforcers by Terra against wayward marine chapters. The Carcharodons are just outright brutal, no regard for civilian casualties or collateral damage, plus the put a whupping on the renegade chapters in the Badab War.

Brother Heinrich wrote:

iGuy91 wrote:

Brother Heinrich wrote:

Manchu wrote:No one mentioned them yet???
Flesh Tearers! The name says it all.

good point, I can't believe I forgot to mention them. Blood for the Blood Emperor and all that.

Haha nice
Yeah, what I was going for is more which do you feel is overall the most EFFECTIVE in close combat as a whole, I could see the Minotaurs or Flesh Tearers easily being in the rankings I suppose

Well if you want EFFECTIVE, I'd cast my vote for either Minotaurs or Carcharodons, The Minotaurs are extremely well back by the lords of Terra, they always have a plentiful supply of equipment and are used as enforcers by Terra against wayward marine chapters. The Carcharodons are just outright brutal, no regard for civilian casualties or collateral damage, plus the put a whupping on the renegade chapters in the Badab War.

You said Minotaurs already...but I' think they can't compete with first founding chapters like BA or SW, not for a mile...
and btw Wolves have giant beasts around them (pure cc) + nobody can top Wulfen in brutality
Do the math...

iGuy91 wrote:I found myself with a most peculiar thought earlier today. Of the Space Marine Chapters, which is the best in hand to hand combat?

When i think of CC and Space Marines, 3 Chapters specifically come to mind, Black Templars, Blood Angels and Space Wolves. Now, disregarding the table top stats of the models themselves, fluffwise which do you think is the strongest or most skilled when it comes to the blade? If you feel another is worthy of the title, write it in and explain why!
Now...GO!

All these other answers are folly. It's obviously the sons of Ultramar, The ULTRAMARINES

TheCaptain wrote:

iGuy91 wrote:I found myself with a most peculiar thought earlier today. Of the Space Marine Chapters, which is the best in hand to hand combat?

When i think of CC and Space Marines, 3 Chapters specifically come to mind, Black Templars, Blood Angels and Space Wolves. Now, disregarding the table top stats of the models themselves, fluffwise which do you think is the strongest or most skilled when it comes to the blade? If you feel another is worthy of the title, write it in and explain why!
Now...GO!

All these other answers are folly. It's obviously the sons of Ultramar, The ULTRAMARINES

With Matt Ward in charge it's possible...

NO!!!!!! The true answer are the scions of Sanguinius The Blood Angels they have the most assult troops of any chapter and when the enemy get to close to thier Devs the Devs will throw thier weapons away and throw themselves with only thier fists

I have to say Blood angels.
They are master of the Blade, and for pure anger and frocity they throw Death Company at it and watch its get Hacked ,Clawed, Stomped, and finaly Eaten
Close second would be the Space Wolfs, Reason being is yes they are also brutal in there CC but they do have the limitation that Death Company lack
As for the Ferisian Wolfs I have a DC Dread........your call

The answer really depends on how one interprets the question - are we talking about the most brutal in close combat ("crush them, drive them before you and hear the lamentation of their women")? Or do you mean the most martially skilled in a close combat ("my name is Enrico Montoya. You killed my father. Prepare to die.")?

There's also the Iron Snakes, who if i recall were akin to Spartan Warriors.

http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Iron_Snakes

Lynata wrote:Those guys are just creepy, but undoubtedly effective. Even the Orks learned to fear them, and that's gotta mean something.

You remember of course that canoness who recommended they be purged?

That's how you know they're good.

Manchu wrote:You remember of course that canoness who recommended they be purged?
That's how you know they're good.

Of course. "Either call in an Inquisitor, or bring the Imperial Navy to bombard these animals from space!"

On a related note, yesterday I took a cursory glance at the 2E codices again, and the AoD one has a very cool short story about Blood Angels in close combat. The Imperial Guard witnessing them was not amused.
Great read, recommendable!

So no one brought up the White Scars? They are pretty handy with a blade......

I'd say blood angels. Above all they favour close combat, they have death company, their leader was a vampire angel of death dude.

SW on paper are better but are basically 'better generalists' as opposed to 'better melee-ists'

Manchu wrote:No one mentioned them yet???

Flesh Tearers! The name says it all.

they are second. Knights of blood are so brutal that he declerad hereticus.still doing crusades thought

Pada wrote:

Manchu wrote:No one mentioned them yet???

Flesh Tearers! The name says it all.

they are second. Knights of blood are so brutal that he declerad hereticus.still doing crusades thought

Hey, why you think it's Knights of Blood I collect?
Knights of Blood, Flesh Tearers, Blood Angels, Space Wolves.
Ofcourse, if we can add chaos, world eaters would be somewhere around Knights of Blood.

If we're talking skill with the blade (or hammer, lightning claws, whatever), I would say the Black Templars, mostly because of their Emperor's Champion, a guy who's job it is to find the biggest, nastiest mutha in the galaxy and challenge it to a duel in the name of the Emperor and Dorn.

Special mention also goes out to the relatively unknown Storm Wardens. They like to engage the enemy on their own terms, i.e., to fight them one-on-one in a manly and honourable duel. And they will sometimes do this using their Sacris claymores over any old powersword.

Fido198674 wrote:So no one brought up the White Scars? They are pretty handy with a blade......

According to Index Astartes they actually prefer to avoid close combat by outmaneuvering and employing close range fire in hit and run attacks.

Flesh Tearers! When your chapter master gets stuck in with a MASSIVE two handed chainsword named "Bloodreaver", spins around in gory arcs while kicking dudes in the gentleman sausage area and headbutting enemies without a helmet. Then not only do you have the best hand to hand fighting chapter ever, but the AWESOMEST!

Black Templars. What's that, you shot my mate? Well, Imma run at ya faster now!

Oh, and the Emperor's Champion is pretty hard to trump.

To be a bit more on-topic: Space Wolves are more of a short-range firefight Chapter that finish the enemy off with brutal charges. Similarly, the Blood Angels don't have more Assault Marines than other Chapters, they're just the most prominent part of the Chapter. I'd argue that the Blood Angels are more akin to a more melee-centric version of the White Scars, using superior speed to concentrate their fighting power to a few key areas andbreaking them with Assault Marines supported by Baal Predators and Devastators. By comparison, the Black Templars are as blunt as a sledgehammer. Their entire modus operandi is to get into close combat with the bulk of their force ASAP, as evidenced by their introduction of the Land Raider Crusader and their preference of Crusade-wide Drop Pod insertions.

Ultrafool wrote:Flesh Tearers! When your chapter master gets stuck in with a MASSIVE two handed chainsword named "Bloodreaver", spins around in gory arcs while kicking dudes in the gentleman sausage area and headbutting enemies without a helmet. Then not only do you have the best hand to hand fighting chapter ever, but the AWESOMEST!

Once again, Knights of Blood are even more brutal.
They got declared renegade for their mass violence.

DatrhMarko wrote:
You said Minotaurs already...but I' think they can't compete with first founding chapters like BA or SW, not for a mile...
.

If rumours are found to be true, they are first founding

With blades, I guess the Dark Angels would be fairly adept, being Khnighuts.

Pilau Rice wrote:

DatrhMarko wrote:
You said Minotaurs already...but I' think they can't compete with first founding chapters like BA or SW, not for a mile...
.

If rumours are found to be true, they are first founding

With blades, I guess the Dark Angels would be fairly adept, being Khnighuts.

The Minotaurs are a 21st (Cursed) Founding Chapter...

EDIT: And there's no such thing as a First Founding Chapter.

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

Pilau Rice wrote:

DatrhMarko wrote:
You said Minotaurs already...but I' think they can't compete with first founding chapters like BA or SW, not for a mile...
.

If rumours are found to be true, they are first founding

With blades, I guess the Dark Angels would be fairly adept, being Khnighuts.

The Minotaurs are a 21st (Cursed) Founding Chapter...

EDIT: And there's no such thing as a First Founding Chapter.

Who said first founding Chapter, I said first founding as in the original Legions, and if rumours are true, which aren't proven as they are rumours, then the Minotaurs are rumoured to be first founding.

Pilau Rice wrote:

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

Pilau Rice wrote:

DatrhMarko wrote:
You said Minotaurs already...but I' think they can't compete with first founding chapters like BA or SW, not for a mile...
.

If rumours are found to be true, they are first founding

With blades, I guess the Dark Angels would be fairly adept, being Khnighuts.

The Minotaurs are a 21st (Cursed) Founding Chapter...

EDIT: And there's no such thing as a First Founding Chapter.

Who said first founding Chapter, I said first founding as in the original Legions, and if rumours are true, which aren't proven as they are rumours, then the Minotaurs are rumoured to be first founding.

You didn't, but the guy you quoted did.

Also, where'd you get these "rumors" from? They're clearly listed as a 21st founding Chapter in IA10.

thenoobbomb wrote:

Pada wrote:

Manchu wrote:No one mentioned them yet???

Flesh Tearers! The name says it all.

they are second. Knights of blood are so brutal that he declerad hereticus.still doing crusades thought

Hey, why you think it's Knights of Blood I collect?
Knights of Blood, Flesh Tearers, Blood Angels, Space Wolves.
Ofcourse, if we can add chaos, world eaters would be somewhere around Knights of Blood.

Bah, all you Blood Angels successors prancing around in golden armour are cowards. The Minotaurs bumped into a Blood Angel successor chapter once. Only 200 managed to survive, most of them were wounded, and all of them were captured.

AlmightyWalrus wrote:. I'd argue that the Blood Angels are more akin to a more melee-centric version of the White Scars, using superior speed to concentrate their fighting power to a few key areas andbreaking them with Assault Marines supported by Baal Predators and Devastators. By comparison, the Black Templars are as blunt as a sledgehammer. Their entire modus operandi is to get into close combat with the bulk of their force ASAP, as evidenced by their introduction of the Land Raider Crusader and their preference of Crusade-wide Drop Pod insertions.

BA are good on close-combat because their Red thirst and Black rage

Buttons wrote:

thenoobbomb wrote:

Pada wrote:

Manchu wrote:No one mentioned them yet???

Flesh Tearers! The name says it all.

they are second. Knights of blood are so brutal that he declerad hereticus.still doing crusades thought

Hey, why you think it's Knights of Blood I collect?
Knights of Blood, Flesh Tearers, Blood Angels, Space Wolves.
Ofcourse, if we can add chaos, world eaters would be somewhere around Knights of Blood.

Bah, all you Blood Angels successors prancing around in golden armour are cowards. The Minotaurs bumped into a Blood Angel successor chapter once. Only 200 managed to survive, most of them were wounded, and all of them were captured.

i want to see which batle was that

Pada wrote:

AlmightyWalrus wrote:. I'd argue that the Blood Angels are more akin to a more melee-centric version of the White Scars, using superior speed to concentrate their fighting power to a few key areas andbreaking them with Assault Marines supported by Baal Predators and Devastators. By comparison, the Black Templars are as blunt as a sledgehammer. Their entire modus operandi is to get into close combat with the bulk of their force ASAP, as evidenced by their introduction of the Land Raider Crusader and their preference of Crusade-wide Drop Pod insertions.

BA are good on close-combat because their Red thirst and Black rage

Being good at close combat generally entails surviving afterwards, something the Death Company isn't exactly known for. And yes, the Red Thirst makes the Blood Angels better at close combat, but the bulk of their forces aren't supposed to primarily engage as melee units, which is why the Red Thirst is a flaw.

AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Also, where'd you get these "rumors" from? They're clearly listed as a 21st founding Chapter in IA10.

The whole 21st Founding was made under a dubious environment, with possible interference by none other than Fabius Bile. The Sons of Anteus are mentioned to have similarities to the Death Guard and the Minotaurs are often referred to as Bezerkers, now which other Legion had those?

It's just rumours though like I said, there isn't any specific evidence like the origins of the Blood Angels

thenoobbomb wrote:

Ultrafool wrote:Flesh Tearers! When your chapter master gets stuck in with a MASSIVE two handed chainsword named "Bloodreaver", spins around in gory arcs while kicking dudes in the gentleman sausage area and headbutting enemies without a helmet. Then not only do you have the best hand to hand fighting chapter ever, but the AWESOMEST!

Once again, Knights of Blood are even more brutal.
They got declared renegade for their mass violence.

If the timeline wouldn't be stuck at 999.999.999.999.M41, the same would go for the Fleshtearers, though!

I say any sons of Baal.

Yes the Blood Angels have the same amount of Assault Squads as the Codex requires, but there are always replacements, as EVERY Blood Angel Marine prefers to be in an assault squad

I was under the impression the Knights of Blood were declared renegade more due to their obsession with blood and their drinking of said blood, rather than the mass violence bit.

Pilau Rice wrote:

AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Also, where'd you get these "rumors" from? They're clearly listed as a 21st founding Chapter in IA10.

The whole 21st Founding was made under a dubious environment, with possible interference by none other than Fabius Bile. The Sons of Anteus are mentioned to have similarities to the Death Guard and the Minotaurs are often referred to as Bezerkers, now which other Legion had those?

It's just rumours though like I said, there isn't any specific evidence like the origins of the Blood Angels

Correct me if I'm wrong though, but there's no official hints of Minotaurs being ala World Eaters? Rather, it's a rumour created by fans from their apparent similarities...

iGuy91 wrote:I was under the impression the Knights of Blood were declared renegade more due to their obsession with blood and their drinking of said blood, rather than the mass violence bit.

No the Blood Drinkers drink blood (funny that) but it helps them combat the red thirst, because they drink it all the time?? maybe. . .

iGuy91 wrote:I was under the impression the Knights of Blood were declared renegade more due to their obsession with blood and their drinking of said blood, rather than the mass violence bit.

Nope, the Knights of Blood are the guys that )truly' accidently murder guard regiments while fighting.
Anything gets close= Throw away bolter, and fistsmack and bite ´em

Pada wrote:

Buttons wrote:

thenoobbomb wrote:

Pada wrote:

Manchu wrote:No one mentioned them yet???

Flesh Tearers! The name says it all.

they are second. Knights of blood are so brutal that he declerad hereticus.still doing crusades thought

Hey, why you think it's Knights of Blood I collect?
Knights of Blood, Flesh Tearers, Blood Angels, Space Wolves.
Ofcourse, if we can add chaos, world eaters would be somewhere around Knights of Blood.

Bah, all you Blood Angels successors prancing around in golden armour are cowards. The Minotaurs bumped into a Blood Angel successor chapter once. Only 200 managed to survive, most of them were wounded, and all of them were captured.

i want to see which batle was that

Babad War, they engaged the Lamenters in a close quarters fleet action and tore them apart.

The Lamenters don't even count (well they do but hey) They don't have Death Company ( I know there is a nice picture of one) according to the chapter approved article on them.

And look at the name: Lamenters.
They Lament all the time, no wonder they are so gloomy

redkommando wrote:The Lamenters don't even count (well they do but hey) They don't have Death Company ( I know there is a nice picture of one) according to the chapter approved article on them.

And look at the name: Lamenters.
They Lament all the time, no wonder they are so gloomy

And they send rediculous claims to BA and succesors, wich seem false.

While the Blood Angels and their successors are more skilled in close combat than your average Chapter - mostly due to their pursuit of perfection in all forms - it's only their ferocity that gives them a true advantage. So I wouldn't say they're more "adept".

No, that one has to go Space Wolves, much as I hate to admit it. It's even in their statistics! Virtually every character they have has +1WS compared to the equivalent from other Codexes.

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

Pada wrote:

AlmightyWalrus wrote:. I'd argue that the Blood Angels are more akin to a more melee-centric version of the White Scars, using superior speed to concentrate their fighting power to a few key areas andbreaking them with Assault Marines supported by Baal Predators and Devastators. By comparison, the Black Templars are as blunt as a sledgehammer. Their entire modus operandi is to get into close combat with the bulk of their force ASAP, as evidenced by their introduction of the Land Raider Crusader and their preference of Crusade-wide Drop Pod insertions.

BA are good on close-combat because their Red thirst and Black rage

Being good at close combat generally entails surviving afterwards, something the Death Company isn't exactly known for. And yes, the Red Thirst makes the Blood Angels better at close combat, but the bulk of their forces aren't supposed to primarily engage as melee units, which is why the Red Thirst is a flaw.

Being good in close combat entails killing the other guy before you get killed.

Something the death Company is known for. They die mostly after the battles, from wounds they straight up ignored that would kill other Marines. And the Flaw is a flaw because it both brings about insanity and could make a ranged fighter into a powerful, berserker melee combatant at an inopportune time.

But if we're asking who's better at melee, it's not a flaw. At least in that regard. Also the bulk of their forces are very adept at close combat. Every one of them can replace a fallen Assault Marine, which is noted as why the Assault Squads are generally filled while the rest of the force can be very under-manned.

(But otherwise, someone asked a valid question we never looked into: Are we considering ferocity or skill here?

Ferocity-wise, I'd say either Death Company or Space Wolves. Skill-wise... Not sure, I don't know enough to say)

Hmmm... My first thought was the Dark Angels. I am going through the Horus Heresy and it seems at least up the Thousand Sons (where I am) that they are described as being incredibly skilled fighters. If not them, then I would turn to the Luna Wolves simply for the reason they have more experience.

Elector wrote:

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

Pada wrote:

AlmightyWalrus wrote:. I'd argue that the Blood Angels are more akin to a more melee-centric version of the White Scars, using superior speed to concentrate their fighting power to a few key areas andbreaking them with Assault Marines supported by Baal Predators and Devastators. By comparison, the Black Templars are as blunt as a sledgehammer. Their entire modus operandi is to get into close combat with the bulk of their force ASAP, as evidenced by their introduction of the Land Raider Crusader and their preference of Crusade-wide Drop Pod insertions.

BA are good on close-combat because their Red thirst and Black rage

Being good at close combat generally entails surviving afterwards, something the Death Company isn't exactly known for. And yes, the Red Thirst makes the Blood Angels better at close combat, but the bulk of their forces aren't supposed to primarily engage as melee units, which is why the Red Thirst is a flaw.

Being good in close combat entails killing the other guy before you get killed.

Something the death Company is known for. They die mostly after the battles, from wounds they straight up ignored that would kill other Marines. And the Flaw is a flaw because it both brings about insanity and could make a ranged fighter into a powerful, berserker melee combatant at an inopportune time.

But if we're asking who's better at melee, it's not a flaw. At least in that regard. Also the bulk of their forces are very adept at close combat. Every one of them can replace a fallen Assault Marine, which is noted as why the Assault Squads are generally filled while the rest of the force can be very under-manned.

(But otherwise, someone asked a valid question we never looked into: Are we considering ferocity or skill here?

Ferocity-wise, I'd say either Death Company or Space Wolves. Skill-wise... Not sure, I don't know enough to say)

Not really, marines are expensive, killing a hundred guardsmen and losing a single marine in one battle is worse than killing 50 guardsmen and losing no marines in a battle.

Just Dave wrote:Correct me if I'm wrong though, but there's no official hints of Minotaurs being ala World Eaters? Rather, it's a rumour created by fans from their apparent similarities...

There is no official connection, just blatant similarities.

Flesh Tearers.

I'm surprised they aren't Khornate yet.

I'm not quite sure what the OP wants to know exactly, but if I read the OP right it's who's the best with 'sword play' (perhaps any HTH weapon?).

I think some folks are getting brutality with a propensity for close combat and skill at such things confused...

There are numerous Chapters which make a claim to brilliant "sword play" as a honed skill set for the entire unit.

The SW are brutal, but to call them HTH weapon specialists is a bit much. The Custodes, while not a Chapter per se, are the opitome of HTH weapon masters. The Grey Knights in my opinion come closest to this style IMHO, but their abilities are offset by 'magicks' so I'm only 80% with that call.

I don't have my Marine Codex in front of me, but there is a Chapter that has had a representative win more than any other at the "Feast of Blades" tournament and that has to count for something.

Manchu wrote:

Just Dave wrote:Correct me if I'm wrong though, but there's no official hints of Minotaurs being ala World Eaters? Rather, it's a rumour created by fans from their apparent similarities...

There is no official connection, just blatant similarities.

The 'how to play cursed founding' chapter approved article gave them a specific 'Beserker' special rule and then went on to say that some chapters fear the Sons of Antaeus have Death Guard like resilience. So a loose and vague connection possibly.

Uhlan wrote:I'm not quite sure what the OP wants to know exactly, but if I read the OP right it's who's the best with 'sword play' (perhaps any HTH weapon?).

I think some folks are getting brutality with a propensity for close combat and skill at such things confused...

There are numerous Chapters which make a claim to brilliant "sword play" as a honed skill set for the entire unit.

The SW are brutal, but to call them HTH weapon specialists is a bit much. The Custodes, while not a Chapter per se, are the opitome of HTH weapon masters. The Grey Knights in my opinion come closest to this style IMHO, but their abilities are offset by 'magicks' so I'm only 80% with that call.

I don't have my Marine Codex in front of me, but there is a Chapter that has had a representative win more than any other at the "Feast of Blades" tournament and that has to count for something.

This is more what I was referring to. I mean, Orks are BRUTAL in melee, but I wouldn't call them "Skilled" per-se

Uhlan wrote:
I don't have my Marine Codex in front of me, but there is a Chapter that has had a representative win more than any other at the "Feast of Blades" tournament and that has to count for something.

That's an Imperial Fists and its successors exclusive though and it's about the individual rather than a Chapter. All Chapters have their Marine or marines who are Champions.

Pilau Rice wrote:

Manchu wrote:

Just Dave wrote:Correct me if I'm wrong though, but there's no official hints of Minotaurs being ala World Eaters? Rather, it's a rumour created by fans from their apparent similarities...

There is no official connection, just blatant similarities.

The 'how to play cursed founding' chapter approved article gave them a specific 'Beserker' special rule and then went on to say that some chapters fear the Sons of Antaeus have Death Guard like resilience. So a loose and vague connection possibly.

I like the theory that all of the traitor legions had their geneseed used to create new chapters during the 21st founding. Blood Ravens could be 1K Sons, Minotaurs are World Eaters, Sons of Antaeus could be Death Guard descendents.

Space Wolves

Buttons wrote:

Pilau Rice wrote:

Manchu wrote:

Just Dave wrote:Correct me if I'm wrong though, but there's no official hints of Minotaurs being ala World Eaters? Rather, it's a rumour created by fans from their apparent similarities...

There is no official connection, just blatant similarities.

The 'how to play cursed founding' chapter approved article gave them a specific 'Beserker' special rule and then went on to say that some chapters fear the Sons of Antaeus have Death Guard like resilience. So a loose and vague connection possibly.

I like the theory that all of the traitor legions had their geneseed used to create new chapters during the 21st founding. Blood Ravens could be 1K Sons, Minotaurs are World Eaters, Sons of Antaeus could be Death Guard descendents.

Color me ignorant, but is this a fan theory or is there more proof than just the few references surrounding the Blood Ravens Chapter?

Buttons wrote:

Pilau Rice wrote:

Manchu wrote:

Just Dave wrote:Correct me if I'm wrong though, but there's no official hints of Minotaurs being ala World Eaters? Rather, it's a rumour created by fans from their apparent similarities...

There is no official connection, just blatant similarities.

The 'how to play cursed founding' chapter approved article gave them a specific 'Beserker' special rule and then went on to say that some chapters fear the Sons of Antaeus have Death Guard like resilience. So a loose and vague connection possibly.

I like the theory that all of the traitor legions had their geneseed used to create new chapters during the 21st founding. Blood Ravens could be 1K Sons, Minotaurs are World Eaters, Sons of Antaeus could be Death Guard descendents.

AFAIK, Death Guard were originally not any more durable than any other Marine. It was more of an implacable, stalwart nature rather than individual durability.
Deliverance Lost does however state that Perturabo has "unique sub-complexes and protein strands geared towards physical durability, above and beyond that found in the others [Primarchs]", which means that it may be a similar case with his sons/The Iron Warriors...

Pilau Rice wrote:

Manchu wrote:

Just Dave wrote:Correct me if I'm wrong though, but there's no official hints of Minotaurs being ala World Eaters? Rather, it's a rumour created by fans from their apparent similarities...

There is no official connection, just blatant similarities.

The 'how to play cursed founding' chapter approved article gave them a specific 'Beserker' special rule and then went on to say that some chapters fear the Sons of Antaeus have Death Guard like resilience. So a loose and vague connection possibly.

Similarly, Alan Blight talks about the "beserker rages" in one of the Badab War books -- I'd still say this isn't an "official connection" in the sense Just Dave meant. I took him to mean something like Goto's DoW novels.

Uhlan wrote:
Color me ignorant, but is this a fan theory or is there more proof than just the few references surrounding the Blood Ravens Chapter?

It's just fan theory with a bit of a prod from GW/BL and even Forge World occasionally, the whole mysteriousness adds to the possibility, but i'm not a believer myself. PM Tadashi about Blood Raven for the whole low down if you want all the details

Just Dave wrote:
AFAIK, Death Guard were originally not any more durable than any other Marine. It was more of an implacable, stalwart nature rather than individual durability.
Deliverance Lost does however state that Perturabo has "unique sub-complexes and protein strands geared towards physical durability, above and beyond that found in the others [Primarchs]", which means that it may be a similar case with his sons/The Iron Warriors...

Well, could be

During the inception of the Sons of Antaeus Chapter, its creators extensively modified the gene-seed in order to create Space Marines of exceptional durability and toughness. How they achieved this is unknown, whether their skeletal structure was enhanced with some artificial substance, or whether a more esoteric procedure was used. Less sympathetic observers point out that the chapter appears every bit as resilient as the Death Guard Traitor Legion.

Reading that again though it just says that they are as resilient after their gene seed was modified.

Uhlan wrote:

Buttons wrote:

Pilau Rice wrote:

Manchu wrote:

Just Dave wrote:Correct me if I'm wrong though, but there's no official hints of Minotaurs being ala World Eaters? Rather, it's a rumour created by fans from their apparent similarities...

There is no official connection, just blatant similarities.

The 'how to play cursed founding' chapter approved article gave them a specific 'Beserker' special rule and then went on to say that some chapters fear the Sons of Antaeus have Death Guard like resilience. So a loose and vague connection possibly.

I like the theory that all of the traitor legions had their geneseed used to create new chapters during the 21st founding. Blood Ravens could be 1K Sons, Minotaurs are World Eaters, Sons of Antaeus could be Death Guard descendents.

Color me ignorant, but is this a fan theory or is there more proof than just the few references surrounding the Blood Ravens Chapter?

I was working on a big post regarding the hints that BR may be 1k sons stock and Minotaurs of world eater stock, but accidentally exed out of the page. Anyway, unless I make another post eventually, just know that there are some striking similarities between the World Eaters and Minotaurs.

Angry Marines

Power Bats, Power Wrenchs, Power Feet, and more.

Black Templars!!!!!!!

Black Templars only because I'm a fanboi. 10,000 years of endless crusade with almost nothing but the blade has to account for something though.

That, or Minotaurs, either way, I wouldn't want to be stuck in between them in a melee.

As a SW player I will concide best CC to BA. Wolves are hunters first and formost so cc is a tool not a rule hehe. We'll shoot you dead as soon as chop you up. Just as long as it gets the job done.

Bluewulf wrote:As a SW player I will concide best CC to BA. Wolves are hunters first and formost so cc is a tool not a rule hehe. We'll shoot you dead as soon as chop you up. Just as long as it gets the job done.

Then wolves are best in close combat and black Templars are best in dueling,parhaps.... but I will say it again, Fenrisian Wolves and Wulfen- who could top that in melee support?
And what is this about Minotaurs?They are like Jamacian or something (voices- labyrinth of sorrows)?And they are using a lot of heavy devastators support,so it doesn't make them pure meele-ist like BT...

World Eaters

- I win. The thread did not specify loyalist, and you cannot out hand to hand khornites.

Orlanth wrote:World Eaters

- I win. The thread did not specify loyalist, and you cannot out hand to hand khornites.

hahahaha you wrote TS first...oooo my GOD

and nobody metioned EC(what is left of them),I'know that they are half gay, but still...

Orlanth wrote:World Eaters

- I win. The thread did not specify loyalist, and you cannot out hand to hand khornites.

They're not a Chapter.

Technically, as they are a Chapter and mainly due to their psychic abilities (but also their wargear), whoever mentioned Grey Knights earlier would take the prize...

DatrhMarko wrote:

Bluewulf wrote:As a SW player I will concide best CC to BA. Wolves are hunters first and formost so cc is a tool not a rule hehe. We'll shoot you dead as soon as chop you up. Just as long as it gets the job done.

Then wolves are best in close combat and black Templars are best in dueling,parhaps.... but I will say it again, Fenrisian Wolves and Wulfen- who could top that in melee support?
And what is this about Minotaurs?They are like Jamacian or something (voices- labyrinth of sorrows)?And they are using a lot of heavy devastators support,so it doesn't make them pure meele-ist like BT...

Having a wolf buddy doesn't make you a better warrior.

If we're just going with Wulfen, I kindly counter with the Black Rage and the Red Thirst. Those suffering from the Rage get a small portion of Sanguinius' power, their strength and vitality go beyond the average Marines, and they are consumed by rage and a need to spill the blood of their enemies. It sounds about equal to the Wulfen.

However, the Blood Angels have far more dedicated assault units. And they're dang good at their jobs.

(and I'm curious as how you decided wolves were better, assuming you got your conclusion from the quote from the guy saying the BA are better)

I wouldn't say any Chapter is better; they all have their strengths and different abilities in the matter and it's a very broad matter.

Typically, the Wolves are much more cunning as they attack, even in close combat; like a Wolf of sorts, but they don't specialise in close combat despite physical/gene-seed advantages. Whereas, typically, the Blood Angels are supposed to be much more brutal and straight-out furious [charge] - the Minotaurs are the same - with the former also having the Death Company. Black Templars are much more numerous and relentlessly fanatical, possibly superior swordsmen also...

It's a many-sided coin, so it's hard to say any one is better.

I can agree with that.

This is a very vague topic, and even debating is tough, especially when the OP set no parameters to judge what constitutes as "better in Hand to Hand"

DatrhMarko wrote:but I will say it again, Fenrisian Wolves and Wulfen- who could top that in melee support?

Furioso Dreadnoughts and Death Company.

Elector wrote:I can agree with that.

This is a very vague topic, and even debating is tough, especially when the OP set no parameters to judge what constitutes as "better in Hand to Hand"

Well agree,maybe fair question would be,which chapter uses cc the most...

Then either Black Templars or Blood Angels.

as far as best swordsman I would have to go with Darkangels of the 1st company but that just my 2 cent worth

World Eaters.!!!
BLOOD FOR THE BLOOD GOD

Elector wrote:Then either Black Templars or Blood Angels.

Blood Angels.
They Know No Pain if they're angry.

sennacherib wrote:World Eaters.!!!
BLOOD FOR THE BLOOD GOD

Too bad its a Legion and not a Chapter.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Bluewulf wrote:as far as best swordsman I would have to go with Darkangels of the 1st company but that just my 2 cent worth

Sanguinary Guard

The scions of sanguinius have always been the most badass when it comes to close combat (their vampires for crap's sake!)
IMO...
1st Knights of blood
2nd Flesh Tearers
3rd Angels Ecarmine
4th Blood Angels
5th Space Wolves
6thBlack templars
7th minotaurs

blood guard26 wrote:The scions of sanguinius have always been the most badass when it comes to close combat (their vampires for crap's sake!)
IMO...
1st Knights of blood
2nd Flesh Tearers
3rd Angels Ecarmine
4th Blood Angels
5th Space Wolves
6thBlack templars
7th minotaurs

Id go fir
1st Knights of Blood
2nd Flesh Tearers
3rd BA
4th Space Wolves
5th Minotaurs

blood guard26 wrote:The scions of sanguinius have always been the most badass when it comes to close combat (their vampires for crap's sake!)
IMO...
1st Knights of blood
2nd Flesh Tearers
3rd Angels Ecarmine
4th Blood Angels
5th Space Wolves
6thBlack templars
7th minotaurs

Don't know too much about the Angels Encarmine, but this list is pretty good. Probably would place the Space Sharks on there above the Minotaurs since IIRC IA 9 or 10 mentioned how the Space Sharks scared everyone as soon as they showed up until they stated that they were against the Astral Claws.

TheCaptain wrote:

iGuy91 wrote:I found myself with a most peculiar thought earlier today. Of the Space Marine Chapters, which is the best in hand to hand combat?

When i think of CC and Space Marines, 3 Chapters specifically come to mind, Black Templars, Blood Angels and Space Wolves. Now, disregarding the table top stats of the models themselves, fluffwise which do you think is the strongest or most skilled when it comes to the blade? If you feel another is worthy of the title, write it in and explain why!
Now...GO!

All these other answers are folly. It's obviously the sons of Ultramar, The ULTRAMARINES

Engine of War wrote: Angry Marines

Power Bats, Power Wrenchs, Power Feet, and more.

Oh god the stories. There are few I can tell here but all of them involve gruesome ridiculous close combat events. One of my favorites is the company that started taking ork choppas as their spoils. Needless to say, the inquisitor was incredibly confused when he found out one of them replaced his hands with that of a dead ork meganob that wouldn't let go of his weapon.

I'd imagine that the flesh tearers death company would be a pretty angry bunch of chaps. The clue is in the name here I feel.

We all know it's the Ultramarines.

BlaxicanX wrote:We all know it's the Ultramarines.

No, cause it isnt the most important thing, states the Codex Astartes

AlmightyWalrus wrote:Similarly, the Blood Angels don't have more Assault Marines than other Chapters, they're just the most prominent part of the Chapter.

While the BA are a Codex Chapter when it comes to organisation they are known for keeping the Assault squads at full strength during campaigns. Everyone knows how to use a Jump Pack (a matter of honor, natural ability and tradition) and will happily move from his squad to fill an empty spot in an Assault squad.

Spetulhu wrote:

AlmightyWalrus wrote:Similarly, the Blood Angels don't have more Assault Marines than other Chapters, they're just the most prominent part of the Chapter.

While the BA are a Codex Chapter when it comes to organisation they are known for keeping the Assault squads at full strength during campaigns. Everyone knows how to use a Jump Pack (a matter of honor, natural ability and tradition) and will happily move from his squad to fill an empty spot in an Assault squad.

Thats how they work yeah/

Spetulhu wrote:

AlmightyWalrus wrote:Similarly, the Blood Angels don't have more Assault Marines than other Chapters, they're just the most prominent part of the Chapter.

While the BA are a Codex Chapter when it comes to organisation they are known for keeping the Assault squads at full strength during campaigns. Everyone knows how to use a Jump Pack (a matter of honor, natural ability and tradition) and will happily move from his squad to fill an empty spot in an Assault squad.

Context is everything. The modus operandi of the Blood Angels isn't to have their tactical squads rush into close combat. Black Templars do. In the end, the Blood Angels follow the Codex Astartes, which emphasises flexibility. Black Templars don't and eschew some of the Astartes ranged prowess in Devastators because they don't fit into the melee-centric Black Templar tactics.

iGuy91 wrote:I found myself with a most peculiar thought earlier today. Of the Space Marine Chapters, which is the best in hand to hand combat?

When i think of CC and Space Marines, 3 Chapters specifically come to mind, Black Templars, Blood Angels and Space Wolves. Now, disregarding the table top stats of the models themselves, fluffwise which do you think is the strongest or most skilled when it comes to the blade? If you feel another is worthy of the title, write it in and explain why!
Now...GO!

Carcharodons, mainly because they have been forced to self-sustain for the last several centuries without any aid whatsoever. Minotaurs are pretty boss as well, though I know less about them.

Bluewulf wrote:As a SW player I will concide best CC to BA. Wolves are hunters first and formost so cc is a tool not a rule hehe. We'll shoot you dead as soon as chop you up. Just as long as it gets the job done.

Then you are not a very knowledgeable SW player. Let's look at the facts,

1. BA aspirants are basically the best of the very best MUTANTS to survive radiation and thus be transformed into BA. SW aspirants are basically the best of the best surviving warriors plucked from battlefields by wolf priests.

2. Baal children are lucky to not be killed at birth due to overt signs of mutation. Fenrisian children are cast out into the freezing seas if they do not grasp the "child-gift", always an axe.

3. BA recruits began their service as a scout. SW recruits begin their service in a pure assault unit, Blood Claws. Who then move on to pure assault units such as Sky Claws or Swift Claws.

4. BA aspire to be a tactical marine, thus armed with a bolter. SW aspire to be a Grey Hunter, thus armed with a bolt pistol, a ccw, and a bolter.

Need I go on?

Space Wolves all the way!

Tyr Grimtooth wrote:

Bluewulf wrote:As a SW player I will concide best CC to BA. Wolves are hunters first and formost so cc is a tool not a rule hehe. We'll shoot you dead as soon as chop you up. Just as long as it gets the job done.

Then you are not a very knowledgeable SW player. Let's look at the facts,

1. BA aspirants are basically the best of the very best MUTANTS to survive radiation and thus be transformed into BA. SW aspirants are basically the best of the best surviving warriors plucked from battlefields by wolf priests.

2. Baal children are lucky to not be killed at birth due to overt signs of mutation. Fenrisian children are cast out into the freezing seas if they do not grasp the "child-gift", always an axe.

3. BA recruits began their service as a scout. SW recruits begin their service in a pure assault unit, Blood Claws. Who then move on to pure assault units such as Sky Claws or Swift Claws.

4. BA aspire to be a tactical marine, thus armed with a bolter. SW aspire to be a Grey Hunter, thus armed with a bolt pistol, a ccw, and a bolter.

Need I go on?

Space Wolves all the way!

And yet a Space Wolves champion would still find a challenge amongst a measly Dark Angel when it comes to a contest of skill of arms.

Tyr Grimtooth wrote:

Bluewulf wrote:As a SW player I will concide best CC to BA. Wolves are hunters first and formost so cc is a tool not a rule hehe. We'll shoot you dead as soon as chop you up. Just as long as it gets the job done.

Then you are not a very knowledgeable SW player. Let's look at the facts,

1. BA aspirants are basically the best of the very best MUTANTS to survive radiation and thus be transformed into BA. SW aspirants are basically the best of the best surviving warriors plucked from battlefields by wolf priests.

2. Baal children are lucky to not be killed at birth due to overt signs of mutation. Fenrisian children are cast out into the freezing seas if they do not grasp the "child-gift", always an axe.

3. BA recruits began their service as a scout. SW recruits begin their service in a pure assault unit, Blood Claws. Who then move on to pure assault units such as Sky Claws or Swift Claws.

4. BA aspire to be a tactical marine, thus armed with a bolter. SW aspire to be a Grey Hunter, thus armed with a bolt pistol, a ccw, and a bolter.

Need I go on?

Space Wolves all the way!

1. BA come from Pure Blooded Humans, not mutants, in fact the humans on Baal frequently fought with the numerous mutants when Sanguinius arrived, which is ironic because Sanguinius is technically a mutant.
2. Don't see how that makes them better in hand to hand, if anything it would just stunt their growth and cause health issues later in life.
4. Blood Angels aspire to be assault marines, which have jump packs to offer an even greater degree of mobility and to allow them to come to grips with the enemy faster.
5. Blood Angels suffer from the Black Rage and Red Thirst, causing them to charge the nearest enemy and giving them even greater strength.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

LumenPraebeo wrote:

Tyr Grimtooth wrote:

Bluewulf wrote:As a SW player I will concide best CC to BA. Wolves are hunters first and formost so cc is a tool not a rule hehe. We'll shoot you dead as soon as chop you up. Just as long as it gets the job done.

Then you are not a very knowledgeable SW player. Let's look at the facts,

1. BA aspirants are basically the best of the very best MUTANTS to survive radiation and thus be transformed into BA. SW aspirants are basically the best of the best surviving warriors plucked from battlefields by wolf priests.

2. Baal children are lucky to not be killed at birth due to overt signs of mutation. Fenrisian children are cast out into the freezing seas if they do not grasp the "child-gift", always an axe.

3. BA recruits began their service as a scout. SW recruits begin their service in a pure assault unit, Blood Claws. Who then move on to pure assault units such as Sky Claws or Swift Claws.

4. BA aspire to be a tactical marine, thus armed with a bolter. SW aspire to be a Grey Hunter, thus armed with a bolt pistol, a ccw, and a bolter.

Need I go on?

Space Wolves all the way!

And yet a Space Wolves champion would still find a challenge amongst a measly Dark Angel when it comes to a contest of skill of arms.

I wouldn't call a Dark Angels champion measly in close combat by a long shot.

Tyr Grimtooth wrote:

Bluewulf wrote:As a SW player I will concide best CC to BA. Wolves are hunters first and formost so cc is a tool not a rule hehe. We'll shoot you dead as soon as chop you up. Just as long as it gets the job done.

Then you are not a very knowledgeable SW player. Let's look at the facts,

1. BA aspirants are basically the best of the very best MUTANTS to survive radiation and thus be transformed into BA. SW aspirants are basically the best of the best surviving warriors plucked from battlefields by wolf priests.

2. Baal children are lucky to not be killed at birth due to overt signs of mutation. Fenrisian children are cast out into the freezing seas if they do not grasp the "child-gift", always an axe.

3. BA recruits began their service as a scout. SW recruits begin their service in a pure assault unit, Blood Claws. Who then move on to pure assault units such as Sky Claws or Swift Claws.

4. BA aspire to be a tactical marine, thus armed with a bolter. SW aspire to be a Grey Hunter, thus armed with a bolt pistol, a ccw, and a bolter.

Need I go on?

Space Wolves all the way!

Space Wolves put their best troops in the back of the line to fire heavy weapons, Black Templars give them bigger sticks.

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

Tyr Grimtooth wrote:

Bluewulf wrote:As a SW player I will concide best CC to BA. Wolves are hunters first and formost so cc is a tool not a rule hehe. We'll shoot you dead as soon as chop you up. Just as long as it gets the job done.

Then you are not a very knowledgeable SW player. Let's look at the facts,

1. BA aspirants are basically the best of the very best MUTANTS to survive radiation and thus be transformed into BA. SW aspirants are basically the best of the best surviving warriors plucked from battlefields by wolf priests.

2. Baal children are lucky to not be killed at birth due to overt signs of mutation. Fenrisian children are cast out into the freezing seas if they do not grasp the "child-gift", always an axe.

3. BA recruits began their service as a scout. SW recruits begin their service in a pure assault unit, Blood Claws. Who then move on to pure assault units such as Sky Claws or Swift Claws.

4. BA aspire to be a tactical marine, thus armed with a bolter. SW aspire to be a Grey Hunter, thus armed with a bolt pistol, a ccw, and a bolter.

Need I go on?

Space Wolves all the way!

Space Wolves put their best troops in the back of the line to fire heavy weapons, Black Templars give them bigger sticks.

SW put their oldest in the back to fire heavy weapons and yet they have already spent their time as Blood Claws/Swift Claws/Sky Claws, then Grey Hunter, and then Wolf Guard.

BT are too busy praying, vowing, and having Salem witch trial cosplay reenactments to focus on close combat.

Tyr Grimtooth wrote:

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

Tyr Grimtooth wrote:

Bluewulf wrote:As a SW player I will concide best CC to BA. Wolves are hunters first and formost so cc is a tool not a rule hehe. We'll shoot you dead as soon as chop you up. Just as long as it gets the job done.

Then you are not a very knowledgeable SW player. Let's look at the facts,

1. BA aspirants are basically the best of the very best MUTANTS to survive radiation and thus be transformed into BA. SW aspirants are basically the best of the best surviving warriors plucked from battlefields by wolf priests.

2. Baal children are lucky to not be killed at birth due to overt signs of mutation. Fenrisian children are cast out into the freezing seas if they do not grasp the "child-gift", always an axe.

3. BA recruits began their service as a scout. SW recruits begin their service in a pure assault unit, Blood Claws. Who then move on to pure assault units such as Sky Claws or Swift Claws.

4. BA aspire to be a tactical marine, thus armed with a bolter. SW aspire to be a Grey Hunter, thus armed with a bolt pistol, a ccw, and a bolter.

Need I go on?

Space Wolves all the way!

Space Wolves put their best troops in the back of the line to fire heavy weapons, Black Templars give them bigger sticks.

SW put their oldest in the back to fire heavy weapons and yet they have already spent their time as Blood Claws/Swift Claws/Sky Claws, then Grey Hunter, and then Wolf Guard.

BT are too busy praying, vowing, and having Salem witch trial cosplay reenactments to focus on close combat.

Their oldest are their best, it is like that in pretty much every chapter because space marines don't age like normal humans.

And Space Wolves are too busy pretending to be Wolves and harrassing human women to focus on close combat.

Tyr Grimtooth wrote:BT are too busy praying, vowing, and having Salem witch trial cosplay reenactments to focus on close combat.

The Space Wolves invented the Predator Destructor, a long-range powerhouse. The Black Templars invented the Land Raider Crusader, a way to get more people into close combat faster. I'll also point out that the Emperor elects a Black Templar to be His Champion, not a Space Wolf.

Yea, the fleshterrors have one baal predator, and a load of assault squads! Don't they have some sort of problem with their geneseed where they are under the effects of black rage constantly? Plus, their chapter master has an 8 foot tall chainsword.

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

Tyr Grimtooth wrote:BT are too busy praying, vowing, and having Salem witch trial cosplay reenactments to focus on close combat.

The Space Wolves invented the Predator Destructor, a long-range powerhouse. The Black Templars invented the Land Raider Crusader, a way to get more people into close combat faster. I'll also point out that the Emperor elects a Black Templar to be His Champion, not a Space Wolf.

Ahum. The Emperors Chosen gets chosen by the Black Templar's themselves, they don't go to Terra, chat a bit with the Custodes, move to the Big E's body and say 'Allrighty then, that onbe is chosen by him'.

Its Knights of Blood all the way

thenoobbomb wrote:

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

Tyr Grimtooth wrote:BT are too busy praying, vowing, and having Salem witch trial cosplay reenactments to focus on close combat.

The Space Wolves invented the Predator Destructor, a long-range powerhouse. The Black Templars invented the Land Raider Crusader, a way to get more people into close combat faster. I'll also point out that the Emperor elects a Black Templar to be His Champion, not a Space Wolf.

Ahum. The Emperors Chosen gets chosen by the Black Templar's themselves, they don't go to Terra, chat a bit with the Custodes, move to the Big E's body and say 'Allrighty then, that onbe is chosen by him'.

Its Knights of Blood all the way

No, he doesn't get chosen by the Templars. He recieves visions of the Emperor and is then guided in close combat by the Emperor. Says so right in the Codex.

still if the champin looses his 2 arms we cant move on
death company can

Pada wrote:still if the champin looses his 2 arms we cant move on
death company can

The Emperor's Champion lost both his arms in Helsreach and kept on fighting.

I have to go with SW over BA or others. Most other chapters stop sorting out troops once they are recruited. SWs are always sifting to the top.

You start out as a kid who fights, and only the most valiant and brave are chosen, especially if they die in combat.

Then you are blood claw, which rush to get headlong into melee.

Those that survive become grey hunters, who are always ready to get close and not afraid to get stuck in.

Then those who live long enough become Wolf Guard.

At every stage the marines are whittled down until only the most skilled remain. But at every stage they fight, and not just as bezerkers.

As the HH books made clear, the SW aren't just stupid bezerkers like the World Eaters or Death Company. In fact they keep that intelligent predatory edge that elevates them above fighters driven by fury alone.

So this would make them better then BA and others who rely just on fury.

You all are aware that the Carcharadons and the Minotaurs were the two best close combat Chapters present in the Badab War, right? I like how those two chapters have been almost entirely dismissed in favor of arguing whether or not Space Wolves or Blood Angels are better.

McNinja wrote:You all are aware that the Carcharadons and the Minotaurs were the two best close combat Chapters present in the Badab War, right? I like how those two chapters have been almost entirely dismissed in favor of arguing whether or not Space Wolves or Blood Angels are better.

Dude - just read some books - and if you won't read ,check out their known grand battles(lexicanum)... Its like Minotaurs 3 , SW -66 ,year of funding SW 30 m -Minotaurs -36 (so its like 6000 years of killing ahead),Books (SW) = A lot - minotaurs =0
In future don't compare any first founding chapter with xxx founding Mary Sue's...

DatrhMarko wrote:

McNinja wrote:You all are aware that the Carcharadons and the Minotaurs were the two best close combat Chapters present in the Badab War, right? I like how those two chapters have been almost entirely dismissed in favor of arguing whether or not Space Wolves or Blood Angels are better.

Dude - just read some books - and if you won't read ,check out their known grand battles(lexicanum)... Its like Minotaurs 3 , SW -66 ,year of funding SW 30 m -Minotaurs -36 (so its like 6000 years of killing ahead),Books (SW) = A lot - minotaurs =0
In future don't compare any first founding chapter with xxx founding Mary Sue's...

So because there is less fluff on them they are automatically inferior to the space wolves. Great logic there champ. How about you consider the fluff that exists on the Minotaurs, they have been used in the past to battle renegade space marine chapters (this is reflected in their rules by their chapter master giving preferred enemy against all marines except chaos marines), and they managed to completely cripple the Lamenters in a close quarters fleet action, while in the CSM codex there was a story of a SW ship that fell to the Red Corsairs, who lost to the Minotaurs and co. Same thing with the Carcharadons, their rules and fluff reflects the fact that they are extremely skilled at hand to hand combat.

DatrhMarko wrote:

McNinja wrote:You all are aware that the Carcharadons and the Minotaurs were the two best close combat Chapters present in the Badab War, right? I like how those two chapters have been almost entirely dismissed in favor of arguing whether or not Space Wolves or Blood Angels are better.

Dude - just read some books - and if you won't read ,check out their known grand battles(lexicanum)... Its like Minotaurs 3 , SW -66 ,year of funding SW 30 m -Minotaurs -36 (so its like 6000 years of killing ahead),Books (SW) = A lot - minotaurs =0
In future don't compare any first founding chapter with xxx founding Mary Sue's...

Mary Sues? Really?

Just because they have less experience as a Chapter doesn't make the Carcharadons or Minotaurs any worse. It's like quality vs. quantity. There's more evidence/suggestion for the Wolves through more conflicts, but their own history isn't really relevant to a straight-out fight between to the two.


But ultimately, really it's all irrelevant. It's too broad a subject and subjective for any one Chapter to be better; they all have strengths and weaknesses.
That said...

... I would hand it to the Grey Knights. They are technically a Chapter and through psychic powers alone, they should easily be the best close combatants. Add to that their experience fighting Daemons (amongst the greatest close combatants in the galaxy in all likelihood), wargear and training and I can't see how any other Chapter could be superior to them, in a vacuum (i.e. this thread), in hand-to-hand. Even unarmed or with pokey sticks; psychic powers really should be that influential, although not necessarily close combat by the nature of some.

Buttons wrote:

DatrhMarko wrote:

McNinja wrote:You all are aware that the Carcharadons and the Minotaurs were the two best close combat Chapters present in the Badab War, right? I like how those two chapters have been almost entirely dismissed in favor of arguing whether or not Space Wolves or Blood Angels are better.

Dude - just read some books - and if you won't read ,check out their known grand battles(lexicanum)... Its like Minotaurs 3 , SW -66 ,year of funding SW 30 m -Minotaurs -36 (so its like 6000 years of killing ahead),Books (SW) = A lot - minotaurs =0
In future don't compare any first founding chapter with xxx founding Mary Sue's...

So because there is less fluff on them they are automatically inferior to the space wolves. Great logic there champ. How about you consider the fluff that exists on the Minotaurs, they have been used in the past to battle renegade space marine chapters (this is reflected in their rules by their chapter master giving preferred enemy against all marines except chaos marines), and they managed to completely cripple the Lamenters in a close quarters fleet action, while in the CSM codex there was a story of a SW ship that fell to the Red Corsairs, who lost to the Minotaurs and co. Same thing with the Carcharadons, their rules and fluff reflects the fact that they are extremely skilled at hand to hand combat.

Less Fluff = more of empty talk....
Like that guy Tyr said, there's a lot of false information coming from you,so please let's talk about Minotaurs -tell me where can I read about them,which book,novela?I ll read it ,swear...

DatrhMarko wrote:

McNinja wrote:You all are aware that the Carcharadons and the Minotaurs were the two best close combat Chapters present in the Badab War, right? I like how those two chapters have been almost entirely dismissed in favor of arguing whether or not Space Wolves or Blood Angels are better.

Dude - just read some books - and if you won't read ,check out their known grand battles(lexicanum)... Its like Minotaurs 3 , SW -66 ,year of funding SW 30 m -Minotaurs -36 (so its like 6000 years of killing ahead),Books (SW) = A lot - minotaurs =0
In future don't compare any first founding chapter with xxx founding Mary Sue's...

I'm sorry, I didn't realize that all of the Space Wolves were immortal and the exact same ones from the HH. Silly me, assuming that poeple die and soldiers get replaced.

Your scoring system is terrible and I have no idea what it means.

And what books? The Space Wolves books? The Blood Angels books? I'm sorry, did IA 9 and 10 get lost somewhere? I don't give a damn is the Space Wolves fought the whole damn galaxy by themselves, the question was which chapters are most adept at hand to hand, and the Minotaurs and Carcharodons own face in close combat.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

DatrhMarko wrote:

Less Fluff = more of empty talk....

Empty talk? Are you high? How does that even begin to make sense? Read IA 9 and 10. Just because the chapter isn't 10,000 years old and doesn't have a dozen books about them does not in any way mean their fluff is less legitimate.

McNinja wrote:

DatrhMarko wrote:

McNinja wrote:You all are aware that the Carcharadons and the Minotaurs were the two best close combat Chapters present in the Badab War, right? I like how those two chapters have been almost entirely dismissed in favor of arguing whether or not Space Wolves or Blood Angels are better.

Dude - just read some books - and if you won't read ,check out their known grand battles(lexicanum)... Its like Minotaurs 3 , SW -66 ,year of funding SW 30 m -Minotaurs -36 (so its like 6000 years of killing ahead),Books (SW) = A lot - minotaurs =0
In future don't compare any first founding chapter with xxx founding Mary Sue's...

I'm sorry, I didn't realize that all of the Space Wolves were immortal and the exact same ones from the HH. Silly me, assuming that poeple die and soldiers get replaced.

Your scoring system is terrible and I have no idea what it means.

And what books? The Space Wolves books? The Blood Angels books? I'm sorry, did IA 9 and 10 get lost somewhere? I don't give a damn is the Space Wolves fought the whole damn galaxy by themselves, the question was which chapters are most adept at hand to hand, and the Minotaurs and Carcharodons own face in close combat.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

DatrhMarko wrote:

Less Fluff = more of empty talk....

Empty talk? Are you high? How does that even begin to make sense? Read IA 9 and 10. Just because the chapter isn't 10,000 years old and doesn't have a dozen books about them does not in any way mean their fluff is less legitimate.

Ok I'll buy the magazine...:-)
And exp in killing - it's not individual - It's chapter thingy I' think

DatrhMarko wrote:
Ok I'll buy the magazine...:-)

Ain't no magazine, tis Imperial Armor books. Browse, if you will, Forgeworld. You can get them from there or your local GW might have them.

Durandal wrote:I have to go with SW over BA or others. Most other chapters stop sorting out troops once they are recruited. SWs are always sifting to the top.

You start out as a kid who fights, and only the most valiant and brave are chosen, especially if they die in combat.

Then you are blood claw, which rush to get headlong into melee.

Those that survive become grey hunters, who are always ready to get close and not afraid to get stuck in.

Then those who live long enough become Wolf Guard.

At every stage the marines are whittled down until only the most skilled remain. But at every stage they fight, and not just as bezerkers.

As the HH books made clear, the SW aren't just stupid bezerkers like the World Eaters or Death Company. In fact they keep that intelligent predatory edge that elevates them above fighters driven by fury alone.

So this would make them better then BA and others who rely just on fury.

Again, exactly the same line of progression as Black Templars except the Templars don't field their most experienced marines as fire support, they just give them even pointier sticks and point them at the enemy.

McNinja wrote:

DatrhMarko wrote:
Ok I'll buy the magazine...:-)

Ain't no magazine, tis Imperial Armor books. Browse, if you will, Forgeworld. You can get them from there or your local GW might have them.

I didn't mean to be offensive,but I always think that first founding chapters are unique in a way and have much more history that we can discuss,rest of them are like filling the gaps in storylines,that's my opinion and probably opinion of heresy fans - not your's I presume...like I' said didn't mean to be offensive

DatrhMarko wrote:

McNinja wrote:

DatrhMarko wrote:
Ok I'll buy the magazine...:-)

Ain't no magazine, tis Imperial Armor books. Browse, if you will, Forgeworld. You can get them from there or your local GW might have them.

I didn't mean to be offensive,but I always think that first founding chapters are unique in a way and have much more history that we can discuss,rest of them are like filling the gaps in storylines,that's my opinion and probably opinion of heresy fans - not your's I presume...like I' said didn't mean to be offensive

If I may critique you on your style of debate, you do come across as offensive. Referring to non-first founding chapters as 45451281 founding or xxx founding chapters, and calling IA books "magazines" is pretty dismissive. Also, having more fluff doesn't mean that the Space Wolves are better, it simply means that there is more information with which to back an argument, even then, a lot of the fluff (as is common with GW) contradicts itself.

Buttons wrote:

DatrhMarko wrote:

McNinja wrote:

DatrhMarko wrote:
Ok I'll buy the magazine...:-)

Ain't no magazine, tis Imperial Armor books. Browse, if you will, Forgeworld. You can get them from there or your local GW might have them.

I didn't mean to be offensive,but I always think that first founding chapters are unique in a way and have much more history that we can discuss,rest of them are like filling the gaps in storylines,that's my opinion and probably opinion of heresy fans - not your's I presume...like I' said didn't mean to be offensive

If I may critique you on your style of debate, you do come across as offensive. Referring to non-first founding chapters as 45451281 founding or xxx founding chapters, and calling IA books "magazines" is pretty dismissive. Also, having more fluff doesn't mean that the Space Wolves are better, it simply means that there is more information with which to back an argument, even then, a lot of the fluff (as is common with GW) contradicts itself.

And that's my point,do you see why people are discussing BA and SW and totaly forgeting Min and C(Mcninja reference post)??? Because there is much more to discuss,IMHO...Well I'm a toooo much Heresy fan I' guess...I do apologize for my rash temper(that why I like SW) ....But let be logic ofc...

DatrhMarko wrote:

Buttons wrote:

DatrhMarko wrote:

McNinja wrote:

DatrhMarko wrote:
Ok I'll buy the magazine...:-)

Ain't no magazine, tis Imperial Armor books. Browse, if you will, Forgeworld. You can get them from there or your local GW might have them.

I didn't mean to be offensive,but I always think that first founding chapters are unique in a way and have much more history that we can discuss,rest of them are like filling the gaps in storylines,that's my opinion and probably opinion of heresy fans - not your's I presume...like I' said didn't mean to be offensive

If I may critique you on your style of debate, you do come across as offensive. Referring to non-first founding chapters as 45451281 founding or xxx founding chapters, and calling IA books "magazines" is pretty dismissive. Also, having more fluff doesn't mean that the Space Wolves are better, it simply means that there is more information with which to back an argument, even then, a lot of the fluff (as is common with GW) contradicts itself.

And that's my point,do you see why people are discussing BA and SW and totaly forgeting Min and C(Mcninja reference post)??? Because there is much more to discuss,IMHO...Well I'm a toooo much Heresy fan I' guess...I do apologize for my rash temper(that why I like SW) ....But let be logic ofc...

My point is that just because there is more fluff doesn't mean that the space wolves are better. In their short history the Minotaurs practically wiped out two chapters and drove a third off from a quarrel simply due to fear (smashed the Lamenters and Inceptors even worse than that (they are actually banned from Ultramar for the latter as hilarious as that sounds), and drove off the Doom Warriors who were fighting with the Inceptors). In addition to that their early history shows a very blunt yet effective style of aggressive hand to hand centered warfare (almost like the World Eaters, they jump in with little regard for planning alongside allies, smash the enemy and leave, frequently with heavy losses), while their more recent history (after they returned from being missing for like 2K years) shows a more refined and effective form of assault.

While one shouldn't discredit the Space Wolves, Blood Angels, or Black Templars, it is undeniable that the Minotaurs are a terrifying chapter for such a young chapter. Their generally superior equipment only pushes the proverbial scale further in their favour, because even if a Minotaur only beats a space wolf because he has Mk VIII armour instead of Mk VII armour he still wins, and that is what matters in the end.

But yeah, there is no way to definitively say who is the absolute best, we can certainly state that among the chapters with any real fluff (as in more than just a name being mentioned) there are six contenders who have been mentioned in this thread several times and would probably be placed towards the top of any potential list, the Blood Angels, Black Templars, and Space Wolves for the older chapters, and the Minotaurs, Flesh Tearers, and Space Sharks (can't spell their fancy name) as far as new chapters go.

For the new chapters I will quickly list some reasons.
Minotaurs: Already talked a lot about them, but to reiterate, they kill a lot of marines, prefer close combat, and are like loyalist World Eaters that have calmed down since. Seriously, read IA 10, the Mintaurs' early history makes them sound disturbingly like World Eaters.
Flesh Tearers: A Blood Angels' successor chapter that suffers from the Black Rage so frequently that it is likely going to die out due to it. So even if they lack the subtleties of other chapters, they more than make up for it with sheer brute strength provided by their Death Company.
Space Sharks: In addition to their demeanor, they focus on close combat enough that everyone has a specialized close combat weapon of some kind even if it is just a bayonet, and are overall a fairly aggressive chapter pretty much hitting the enemy in one area, hacking them down and moving right on to the next target. Like a more organized and tame version of the early Minotaurs.

Space Sharks: I'm not so sure about "tame." They killed the majority of a friendly chapter to take out an enemy shield, and didn't give one single damn. Their technique more like the Minotaurs, but instead of sticking around, they smack people down as accurately as possible then GTFO, then come back and do it again, taking as few casualties as possible.

DatrhMarko wrote:

McNinja wrote:

DatrhMarko wrote:
Ok I'll buy the magazine...:-)

Ain't no magazine, tis Imperial Armor books. Browse, if you will, Forgeworld. You can get them from there or your local GW might have them.

I didn't mean to be offensive,but I always think that first founding chapters are unique in a way and have much more history that we can discuss,rest of them are like filling the gaps in storylines,that's my opinion and probably opinion of heresy fans - not your's I presume...like I' said didn't mean to be offensive

Second founding. People always ignore that all the Chapters are Second Founding or later; there's no such thing as a First Founding Chapter. It makes a difference because every Chapter created during the Second Founding has claim to it's share of the glories of the Heresy. For example, the Imperial Fists (Legion) is not the same entity as the Imperial Fists (Chapter). The exploits and heroics of the Imperial Fists (Legion) belongs to the Imperial Fists (Chapter), Black Templars, Crimson Fists, Soul Drinkers and any other Second Founding Chapter of Imperial Fists geneseed.

Again, Knights of Blood win.
Flesh Tearers but then 10 times worse.
Ahum, mantlegen.

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

DatrhMarko wrote:

McNinja wrote:

DatrhMarko wrote:
Ok I'll buy the magazine...:-)

Ain't no magazine, tis Imperial Armor books. Browse, if you will, Forgeworld. You can get them from there or your local GW might have them.

I didn't mean to be offensive,but I always think that first founding chapters are unique in a way and have much more history that we can discuss,rest of them are like filling the gaps in storylines,that's my opinion and probably opinion of heresy fans - not your's I presume...like I' said didn't mean to be offensive

Second founding. People always ignore that all the Chapters are Second Founding or later; there's no such thing as a First Founding Chapter. It makes a difference because every Chapter created during the Second Founding has claim to it's share of the glories of the Heresy. For example, the Imperial Fists (Legion) is not the same entity as the Imperial Fists (Chapter). The exploits and heroics of the Imperial Fists (Legion) belongs to the Imperial Fists (Chapter), Black Templars, Crimson Fists, Soul Drinkers and any other Second Founding Chapter of Imperial Fists geneseed.

Ooooo please STOP ....for CHRIS sake- just STOP

DarthMarko wrote:

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

DatrhMarko wrote:

McNinja wrote:

DatrhMarko wrote:
Ok I'll buy the magazine...:-)

Ain't no magazine, tis Imperial Armor books. Browse, if you will, Forgeworld. You can get them from there or your local GW might have them.

I didn't mean to be offensive,but I always think that first founding chapters are unique in a way and have much more history that we can discuss,rest of them are like filling the gaps in storylines,that's my opinion and probably opinion of heresy fans - not your's I presume...like I' said didn't mean to be offensive

Second founding. People always ignore that all the Chapters are Second Founding or later; there's no such thing as a First Founding Chapter. It makes a difference because every Chapter created during the Second Founding has claim to it's share of the glories of the Heresy. For example, the Imperial Fists (Legion) is not the same entity as the Imperial Fists (Chapter). The exploits and heroics of the Imperial Fists (Legion) belongs to the Imperial Fists (Chapter), Black Templars, Crimson Fists, Soul Drinkers and any other Second Founding Chapter of Imperial Fists geneseed.

Ooooo please STOP ....for CHRIS sake- just STOP

Spoiler:

The twenty Space Marine Legions, also known as the Legiones Astartes, were created by the Emperor to take part in the Great Crusade in what was later known as the First Founding. All the Space Marines of a Legion ("battle-brothers" amongst themselves) were modified with help of the DNA samples of a single Primarch. As a Primarch was found, he would receive the command of his respective Legion. His homeworld would also become the new homeworld of the Legion itself.

Yes, they were Legions, not Chapters. Good job. Did you actually read my post?

So BT are 2nd generation IF legion -> IFchapter(second) -> BT(second) -Like 2nd generation

But you got a point,I ll give you that - so we can only say first founding LEGION?

So the space Wolves,Ultramarines,BloodAngels are all second founding because they are chapter now?

DarthMarko wrote:So BT are 2nd generation IF legion -> IFchapter(second) -> BT(second) -Like 2nd generation

But you got a point,I ll give you that - so we can only say first founding LEGION?

No, you can say what you want, but I'll be there nagging you about it all the way.

DarthMarko wrote:So BT are 2nd generation IF legion -> IFchapter(second) -> BT(second) -Like 2nd generation

But you got a point,I ll give you that - so we can only say first founding LEGION?

So the space Wolves,Ultramarines,BloodAngels are all second founding because they are chapter now?

Nope.
They are first founding chapters.

When the Legions were split into Chapters, one Chapter would keep the original heraldry and names. The remainders got new sigils and names. Those remainders are the "Successor Chapters" and were Second Founding (referring only to the Chapters formed during that time)

Any Chapter that bears the same heraldry and name as the legion they originated from referred to as 'First Founding'. Ultramarines, Blood Angels, Space Wolves, Imperial Fists, they are all First Founding. FleshTearers, Marauders, Black Templars, Crimson Fists, Angels of Vengeance, they are all Second Founding.

No-one says Grey Knights?
They're a chapter IIRC, and they pretty much are better than any other chapter in any situation?

(Who said OP?)

Seb wrote:No-one says Grey Knights?
They're a chapter IIRC, and they pretty much are better than any other chapter in any situation?

(Who said OP?)

Theyre not exactly codex, and more individual organisation.

The Space Wolves. They did manage to put a whoopin' on the Thousand Sons LEGION after all.

Seb wrote:No-one says Grey Knights?
They're a chapter IIRC, and they pretty much are better than any other chapter in any situation?

(Who said OP?)

Just Dave wrote:
But ultimately, really it's all irrelevant. It's too broad a subject and subjective for any one Chapter to be better; they all have strengths and weaknesses.
That said...

... I would hand it to the Grey Knights. They are technically a Chapter and through psychic powers alone, they should easily be the best close combatants. Add to that their experience fighting Daemons (amongst the greatest close combatants in the galaxy in all likelihood), wargear and training and I can't see how any other Chapter could be superior to them, in a vacuum (i.e. this thread), in hand-to-hand. Even unarmed or with pokey sticks; psychic powers really should be that influential, although not necessarily close combat by the nature of some.

Shas'o_Longshot wrote:I suppose Grey Knights don't count?

TechMarine1 wrote:The Space Wolves. They did manage to put a whoopin' on the Thousand Sons LEGION after all.

We talking about the Prospero battles? Because the Space Wolves were a Legion too back then.

TechMarine1 wrote:The Space Wolves. They did manage to put a whoopin' on the Thousand Sons LEGION after all.

Yea, they were a legion then.

Elector wrote:When the Legions were split into Chapters, one Chapter would keep the original heraldry and names. The remainders got new sigils and names. Those remainders are the "Successor Chapters" and were Second Founding (referring only to the Chapters formed during that time)

Any Chapter that bears the same heraldry and name as the legion they originated from referred to as 'First Founding'. Ultramarines, Blood Angels, Space Wolves, Imperial Fists, they are all First Founding. FleshTearers, Marauders, Black Templars, Crimson Fists, Angels of Vengeance, they are all Second Founding.

Source? It's copied word-for-word from Lexicanum, which lists C:BT page 20 as the source, but pg 20 doesn't actually say anything about that.

Wolves or angels depends on the combatant.

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

Elector wrote:When the Legions were split into Chapters, one Chapter would keep the original heraldry and names. The remainders got new sigils and names. Those remainders are the "Successor Chapters" and were Second Founding (referring only to the Chapters formed during that time)

Any Chapter that bears the same heraldry and name as the legion they originated from referred to as 'First Founding'. Ultramarines, Blood Angels, Space Wolves, Imperial Fists, they are all First Founding. FleshTearers, Marauders, Black Templars, Crimson Fists, Angels of Vengeance, they are all Second Founding.

Source? It's copied word-for-word from Lexicanum, which lists C:BT page 20 as the source, but pg 20 doesn't actually say anything about that.

Off the top of my head? The Blood Angels novel Red Thirst. The Flesh Tearers resent the Blood Angels for their "First Founding status" that grants them honors like being able to live on Baal. I'll get a more concrete source when I'm not at work.

Elector wrote:

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

Elector wrote:When the Legions were split into Chapters, one Chapter would keep the original heraldry and names. The remainders got new sigils and names. Those remainders are the "Successor Chapters" and were Second Founding (referring only to the Chapters formed during that time)

Any Chapter that bears the same heraldry and name as the legion they originated from referred to as 'First Founding'. Ultramarines, Blood Angels, Space Wolves, Imperial Fists, they are all First Founding. FleshTearers, Marauders, Black Templars, Crimson Fists, Angels of Vengeance, they are all Second Founding.

Source? It's copied word-for-word from Lexicanum, which lists C:BT page 20 as the source, but pg 20 doesn't actually say anything about that.

Off the top of my head? The Blood Angels novel Red Thirst. The Flesh Tearers resent the Blood Angels for their "First Founding status" that grants them honors like being able to live on Baal. I'll get a more concrete source when I'm not at work.

I can see Lynata logic,but I don't see evidence - like you said Legion= (chapter) same name = first founding -
I'dont know why is that, probably because of the famous Name vanity

While the Minotaurs and Space Sharks get credit for beating up on loyal marine chapters, they also had the advantage in the Badab war of not splitting loyalties.

Both were assigned to destroy wayward chapters and did so directly. Unlike the Lamenters and Mantis chapters that would give quarter.

So far, neither chapter has as many exploits to their name as the first founding chapters.

Also, any chapter that relies on berzerker rages will be inferior to SW, since SW are markedly better, fluff wise, once they conquer their inner wolf and stop raging out.

So they could meet the Minotaurs or Sharks on the berzerker front, but chose not to because they are more deadly when in control of their rage.

Likewise the BA have DC, which rage, but the fluff shows that their swordsmanship suffers in that state and it's only the ability to shrug off wounds and keep fighting that is the DC's advantage.

The templar, while skilled fanatics, are ultimately Dorn's followers and are limited by Dorn's semi-adherence to the codex asarties.

And lets not forget the SW are the only chapter that goes out and beats down a monster 3x their own size with nothing but their bare hands just because the SW don't like to walk everywhere now that the Emperor has taken their teleporters.

Buttons wrote:

Tyr Grimtooth wrote:

Bluewulf wrote:As a SW player I will concide best CC to BA. Wolves are hunters first and formost so cc is a tool not a rule hehe. We'll shoot you dead as soon as chop you up. Just as long as it gets the job done.

Then you are not a very knowledgeable SW player. Let's look at the facts,

1. BA aspirants are basically the best of the very best MUTANTS to survive radiation and thus be transformed into BA. SW aspirants are basically the best of the best surviving warriors plucked from battlefields by wolf priests.

2. Baal children are lucky to not be killed at birth due to overt signs of mutation. Fenrisian children are cast out into the freezing seas if they do not grasp the "child-gift", always an axe.

3. BA recruits began their service as a scout. SW recruits begin their service in a pure assault unit, Blood Claws. Who then move on to pure assault units such as Sky Claws or Swift Claws.

4. BA aspire to be a tactical marine, thus armed with a bolter. SW aspire to be a Grey Hunter, thus armed with a bolt pistol, a ccw, and a bolter.

Need I go on?

Space Wolves all the way!

1. BA come from Pure Blooded Humans, not mutants, in fact the humans on Baal frequently fought with the numerous mutants when Sanguinius arrived, which is ironic because Sanguinius is technically a mutant.
2. Don't see how that makes them better in hand to hand, if anything it would just stunt their growth and cause health issues later in life.
4. Blood Angels aspire to be assault marines, which have jump packs to offer an even greater degree of mobility and to allow them to come to grips with the enemy faster.
5. Blood Angels suffer from the Black Rage and Red Thirst, causing them to charge the nearest enemy and giving them even greater strength.

I am not sure if you are a troll or a no clue fluff nub.

1. Codex BA, page 11

It has to be said that the recruits are far from handsome. Most of the Aspirants bear marks of their hard lives, for it is all but impossible for an ordinary man to dwell on those barren moons and not feel the terrible kiss of radiation. Many are marked by stigmata, most are short and stunted, their growth stifled by malnutrition and constant hunger. Many more will be marked by lesions and carcinoma.

So as I said, the best of the best, least mutated mutants, make up the recruiting pool of the BA.

2. You really are not a SW player as you claim because every single SW player I know, knows about the child-gift. Codex SW, page 7

To survive in such a land the Fenrisians must be warriors from the cradle to the grave. This is why the child-gift is always the axe, and why those that will not grasp it are cast outside to die quickly in the freezing seas. Their survival depends upon their wits and determination as much as their skill with sword and spear.

A Fenrisian child that won't grasp the close combat weapon that pretty much defines not only Fenrisians but the Space Wolves is considered useless, discarded, and left to die. As previously quoted, the only one to have stunted growth and health issues are BA.

3. Again, BA recruits start out as scouts. Once they have proved themselves worthy in both Assault and Devastator squads are they able to join a Tactical squad. Some will stay in Assault squads, but only the best will become Tactical marines, thus forsaking their close combat weaponry in lieu of astandard ranged loadout. This is straight from the codex so you might want to give it a read.

And being highly mobile does not constitute combat prowess otherwise Ork Speed Freaks would be the king of close combat, which we know isn't true.

4. You push their special rules as if that displays combat prowess. That might promote lethality, but not prowess. Something you obviously cannot tell the difference. BA are no different then a person on PCP, stronger, no sense mortality, and appear impervious to pain. However after the fight, like a person on PCP, they die due to the injuries sustained. That isn't being skilled in close combat.

Read a codex instead of just running off about IA and Lexicanum.

Durandal wrote:
Both were assigned to destroy wayward chapters and did so directly. Unlike the Lamenters and Mantis chapters that would give quarter.

Minotaurs did give quarters, if they didn't than the Lamenters would have been completely wiped out.

So far, neither chapter has as many exploits to their name as the first founding chapters.

No duh, the first founding chapters have been around twice as long and frequently people include exploits from when they were full fledged legions.

Also, any chapter that relies on berzerker rages will be inferior to SW, since SW are markedly better, fluff wise, once they conquer their inner wolf and stop raging out.

Uh no, even if they aren't as skilled, a Blood Angel suffering from the black rage will rip a space wolf in half if only because of their far superior strength. Also, bersekers have the advantage of being unpredictable.

So they could meet the Minotaurs or Sharks on the berzerker front, but chose not to because they are more deadly when in control of their rage.

Neither of the chapters are outright berserkers (currently at least), they are aggressive and ruthless, but the Minotaurs have long since tamed their aggression and managed to crush even a Blood Angels' successor chapter in close combat. The Space Wolves haven't had any victories against Astartes since the battle of the Fang to my knowledge, while the Minotaurs have nearly wiped out at least 2 chapters since the Macharian Heresy.

Likewise the BA have DC, which rage, but the fluff shows that their swordsmanship suffers in that state and it's only the ability to shrug off wounds and keep fighting that is the DC's advantage.

Which is a massive advantage. So you managed to land a blow on the Blood Angel, he will shrug it off and tear your head off using his superior strength.

The templar, while skilled fanatics, are ultimately Dorn's followers and are limited by Dorn's semi-adherence to the codex asarties.

lolno. The whole spiel about the Black Templars is that they disregard the Codex Astartes completely, in literally every way, from squad organization, to size, to company level organization.

And lets not forget the SW are the only chapter that goes out and beats down a monster 3x their own size with nothing but their bare hands just because the SW don't like to walk everywhere now that the Emperor has taken their teleporters.

What monster would that be? Besides several IG regiments are known for killing big animals, killing something big isn't that amazing for astartes.

Tyr Grimtooth wrote:

So as I said, the best of the best, least mutated mutants, make up the recruiting pool of the BA.

Okay, none of those are really mutations, just signs of a hard life, you do not get lesions or get hungry, or stigmata from radiation or direct mutation. They are far from pretty, yes, but being ugly isn't a mutation.

A Fenrisian child that won't grasp the close combat weapon that pretty much defines not only Fenrisians but the Space Wolves is considered useless, discarded, and left to die. As previously quoted, the only one to have stunted growth and health issues are BA.

So grabbing an axe as a child makes on a great warrior? A random cultural tradition like that doesn't make one a good warrior. Also, of course I am not a Space Wolf player, it is an annoying army. Vampires in space, I can take, Mongols in space, fine, vikings in space, fine, wolf people in space who use the word wolf, fang, claw, or something else relating to wolf in every other word is just annoying. At least the Blood Angels are a bit more creative using the word sanguinary instead of blood.

And being highly mobile does not constitute combat prowess otherwise Ork Speed Freaks would be the king of close combat, which we know isn't true.

Except the best marines don't become tactical marines, they become assault marines, and hopefully move on all the way to Sanguinary Guard. Also, speed and mobility offers versatility, and for a dedicated close combat unit, the ability to come to grips with the enemy faster, which is invaluable. While the wolves are slowly trudging towards the enemy, the Blood Angels can descend on jump packs.

4. You push their special rules as if that displays combat prowess. That might promote lethality, but not prowess. Something you obviously cannot tell the difference. BA are no different then a person on PCP, stronger, no sense mortality, and appear impervious to pain. However after the fight, like a person on PCP, they die due to the injuries sustained. That isn't being skilled in close combat.

Read a codex instead of just running off about IA and Lexicanum.

Lethality>Prowess, woohoo you can spin a sword around, that matters little when you are dead. Also, individuals suffering from the Black Rage are frequently put down after a battle anyway, so whether they live or die from their wounds matters little.

Carcharodons.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, the Blood Angels are angry/crazy and the Grey Knights are the super bestest. And the Ultramarines are the super bestest. Don't forget about the crazy ass zealots of the Dark Templars. But you can't count out the Space Wolves with their enhanced senses and wolfyness. Perhaps the Minotaurs are the most brutal of all, rumored to be created from World Eaters geneseed and renowned for their brutality.

See, but the thing none of you get, is that the Carcharodons are... Space Sharks. A motherfething shark... ....in space. Get that through your skull. Space Sharks, melon-fether.

That is why the Carcharodons are the best.

Space Sharks.

LoneLictor wrote:Carcharodons.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, the Blood Angels are angry/crazy and the Grey Knights are the super bestest. And the Ultramarines are the super bestest. Don't forget about the crazy ass zealots of the Dark Templars. But you can't count out the Space Wolves with their enhanced senses and wolfyness. Perhaps the Minotaurs are the most brutal of all, rumored to be created from World Eaters geneseed and renowned for their brutality.

See, but the thing none of you get, is that the Carcharodons are... Space Sharks. A motherfething shark... ....in space. Get that through your skull. Space Sharks, melon-fether.

That is why the Carcharodons are the best.

Space Sharks.

Space Shaaaaaaaaaarks.

Way better name than Carcharodons Astra
Though I like the idea that they are known by different names in different parts of the galaxy, I love how they take on the persona of the beast they're named after, and fly the dark voids of the galaxy in search of prey.
Definitely my favourite chapter within the Badab War, and are absolutely HtH beasts to boot.

Still casting my vote with Black Templars however.

And Storm Wardens, just cause.

Durandal wrote:While the Minotaurs and Space Sharks get credit for beating up on loyal marine chapters, they also had the advantage in the Badab war of not splitting loyalties.

Both were assigned to destroy wayward chapters and did so directly. Unlike the Lamenters and Mantis chapters that would give quarter.

So far, neither chapter has as many exploits to their name as the first founding chapters.

Also, any chapter that relies on berzerker rages will be inferior to SW, since SW are markedly better, fluff wise, once they conquer their inner wolf and stop raging out.

So they could meet the Minotaurs or Sharks on the berzerker front, but chose not to because they are more deadly when in control of their rage.

Likewise the BA have DC, which rage, but the fluff shows that their swordsmanship suffers in that state and it's only the ability to shrug off wounds and keep fighting that is the DC's advantage.

The templar, while skilled fanatics, are ultimately Dorn's followers and are limited by Dorn's semi-adherence to the codex asarties.

And lets not forget the SW are the only chapter that goes out and beats down a monster 3x their own size with nothing but their bare hands just because the SW don't like to walk everywhere now that the Emperor has taken their teleporters.

While the Minotaurs USED to be straight up berzerkers, during the Badab war they were far more organized and cohesive than before.

The Space Sharks/Carcharodons are not berzerkers. They do not suffer from any sort of Black Rage/Red Thirst. They have, to put it simply, perfected the art of shock assaults. The single best chapter at CQC? No, there are a dozen chapters who specialize in CQC, but the Carcharodons are the single best chapter at "SURPRISE!" *punch* "Fall Back! Let's do it again!" than any other chapter. That's how they've operated for who knows how long, and in fact that's how they've been forced to operate. They don't rely on anything other than themselves when they are out on their crusade. No Imperial Navy, no guardsman, no Grey Knights, no other Space Marines. Just the Carcharodons. When you have no one else to rely on, you get really good at keeping yourself alive.

In one on one cc ba or succesor would still win

Here I go again about first founding legion/chapters...Nobody said "Raven Guard" -they were like guerila shock assault troops with jetpacks and lclaws 7000 years before Carcharodons...btw preheresy EC are worth mentioning

and like tyr said wolves(fckn feral-cunning vikings with giant axes,hammers,chainaxes,swords) would rip them apart( all of them together ).....

Buttons wrote:

Durandal wrote:
Both were assigned to destroy wayward chapters and did so directly. Unlike the Lamenters and Mantis chapters that would give quarter.

Minotaurs did give quarters, if they didn't than the Lamenters would have been completely wiped out.

So far, neither chapter has as many exploits to their name as the first founding chapters.

No duh, the first founding chapters have been around twice as long and frequently people include exploits from when they were full fledged legions.

Also, any chapter that relies on berzerker rages will be inferior to SW, since SW are markedly better, fluff wise, once they conquer their inner wolf and stop raging out.

Uh no, even if they aren't as skilled, a Blood Angel suffering from the black rage will rip a space wolf in half if only because of their far superior strength. Also, bersekers have the advantage of being unpredictable.

So they could meet the Minotaurs or Sharks on the berzerker front, but chose not to because they are more deadly when in control of their rage.

Neither of the chapters are outright berserkers (currently at least), they are aggressive and ruthless, but the Minotaurs have long since tamed their aggression and managed to crush even a Blood Angels' successor chapter in close combat. The Space Wolves haven't had any victories against Astartes since the battle of the Fang to my knowledge, while the Minotaurs have nearly wiped out at least 2 chapters since the Macharian Heresy.

Likewise the BA have DC, which rage, but the fluff shows that their swordsmanship suffers in that state and it's only the ability to shrug off wounds and keep fighting that is the DC's advantage.

Which is a massive advantage. So you managed to land a blow on the Blood Angel, he will shrug it off and tear your head off using his superior strength.

The templar, while skilled fanatics, are ultimately Dorn's followers and are limited by Dorn's semi-adherence to the codex asarties.

lolno. The whole spiel about the Black Templars is that they disregard the Codex Astartes completely, in literally every way, from squad organization, to size, to company level organization.

And lets not forget the SW are the only chapter that goes out and beats down a monster 3x their own size with nothing but their bare hands just because the SW don't like to walk everywhere now that the Emperor has taken their teleporters.

What monster would that be? Besides several IG regiments are known for killing big animals, killing something big isn't that amazing for astartes.

Tyr Grimtooth wrote:

So as I said, the best of the best, least mutated mutants, make up the recruiting pool of the BA.

Okay, none of those are really mutations, just signs of a hard life, you do not get lesions or get hungry, or stigmata from radiation or direct mutation. They are far from pretty, yes, but being ugly isn't a mutation.

A Fenrisian child that won't grasp the close combat weapon that pretty much defines not only Fenrisians but the Space Wolves is considered useless, discarded, and left to die. As previously quoted, the only one to have stunted growth and health issues are BA.

So grabbing an axe as a child makes on a great warrior? A random cultural tradition like that doesn't make one a good warrior. Also, of course I am not a Space Wolf player, it is an annoying army. Vampires in space, I can take, Mongols in space, fine, vikings in space, fine, wolf people in space who use the word wolf, fang, claw, or something else relating to wolf in every other word is just annoying. At least the Blood Angels are a bit more creative using the word sanguinary instead of blood.

And being highly mobile does not constitute combat prowess otherwise Ork Speed Freaks would be the king of close combat, which we know isn't true.

Except the best marines don't become tactical marines, they become assault marines, and hopefully move on all the way to Sanguinary Guard. Also, speed and mobility offers versatility, and for a dedicated close combat unit, the ability to come to grips with the enemy faster, which is invaluable. While the wolves are slowly trudging towards the enemy, the Blood Angels can descend on jump packs.

4. You push their special rules as if that displays combat prowess. That might promote lethality, but not prowess. Something you obviously cannot tell the difference. BA are no different then a person on PCP, stronger, no sense mortality, and appear impervious to pain. However after the fight, like a person on PCP, they die due to the injuries sustained. That isn't being skilled in close combat.

Read a codex instead of just running off about IA and Lexicanum.

Lethality>Prowess, woohoo you can spin a sword around, that matters little when you are dead. Also, individuals suffering from the Black Rage are frequently put down after a battle anyway, so whether they live or die from their wounds matters little.

So you are actually a troll fluff nub then.

The fact that you think that close combat boils down to Lethality over Prowess shows how clueless you are in this matter.

Close combat is not just about killing your enemy. It is about killing them and surviving to kill more of them. You cling to this idea that as long as the enemy died, you won despite dying yourself. That is called a draw. If that was the case a single SM with a cyclonic warhead strapped to his back with a deadman's trigger in his hand is the best close combat SM ever. He may die in close combat, but he takes out an entire continent!!!

So just stop already. I showed you that BA come from a bunch of mutants and you needed to back track your pure blood statement. I showed you that the recruiting pool of the SW is superior to the BA, not only physically, but also in warrior culture and you try to downplay it. You can't even follow the BA codex where it says that the very best BA become Tactical Marines, thus foregoing their close combat weaponry completely.

I am done with your blathering based in fanboism and not on what is actually written.

Tyr Grimtooth wrote:
So just stop already. I showed you that BA come from a bunch of mutants and you needed to back track your pure blood statement. I showed you that the recruiting pool of the SW is superior to the BA, not only physically, but also in warrior culture and you try to downplay it. You can't even follow the BA codex where it says that the very best BA become Tactical Marines, thus foregoing their close combat weaponry completely.

The same way that you ignore that the Black Templars do the same thing except they don't put their most experienced troops at the back to shoot heavy weapons at people?

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

Tyr Grimtooth wrote:
So just stop already. I showed you that BA come from a bunch of mutants and you needed to back track your pure blood statement. I showed you that the recruiting pool of the SW is superior to the BA, not only physically, but also in warrior culture and you try to downplay it. You can't even follow the BA codex where it says that the very best BA become Tactical Marines, thus foregoing their close combat weaponry completely.

The same way that you ignore that the Black Templars do the same thing except they don't put their most experienced troops at the back to shoot heavy weapons at people?

I haven't ignored you skirt wearers, I just haven't begun to address all your short comings yet.

Lets not start a flame war fellas.

Tyr Grimtooth wrote:

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

Tyr Grimtooth wrote:
So just stop already. I showed you that BA come from a bunch of mutants and you needed to back track your pure blood statement. I showed you that the recruiting pool of the SW is superior to the BA, not only physically, but also in warrior culture and you try to downplay it. You can't even follow the BA codex where it says that the very best BA become Tactical Marines, thus foregoing their close combat weaponry completely.

The same way that you ignore that the Black Templars do the same thing except they don't put their most experienced troops at the back to shoot heavy weapons at people?

I haven't ignored you skirt wearers, I just haven't begun to address all your short comings yet.

Be careful about calling the Black Templars 'skirt wearers', especially when the Space Wolves you've been defending are.... (ahem)

Anti intellectual space furries (there is nothing wrong with being a furry by the way, just like there is nothing wrong with wearing a skirt) who were led by a drunken bafoon that went missing in the Eye of Terror after accomplishing nothing beyond driving the Thousand Sons to become Traitors, inadvertently hurting the Imperium. According to Deliverance Lost (a book I don't really like), they even have wolf DNA or something in their geneseed, meaning that they are dumber and hairier than other Chapters.

Bam.

EDIT: Since you can't hear me over the Internet, I'd like to clarify that I am speaking in a 'jesting' tone. I am not angry and I do not mean to seriously or personally insult anyone or anything.

If the best Become Tac Marines why is most of 1st Company Assault Squads?
The Blood Angels do forgo a lot of finesse for pure hatred and power. But they are not mindless beasts to be thrown to slaughter. They fight as there primarch would with his power.
In the case of a veteran Sgt who was able to take out a Chaos Dreadnought by allowing it to crush most of his lower body so that he could kill the pilot from underneath
As for the recrutes I dont have my codex on me but From what I have seen they go thrue the basics of every outher chapeters recruting (there are exemtions to the rule but thats neather here or there)
From the SW side of the house you have to have fallen in glorious battle it stats nothing of the combat ability of the individule or the phisical condition...
Now to end all of this the whos right ans whos wrong. No one is eather. They are all Battle Brothers who excel at close quarters some Brothers are better than outhers with in the Chapter but as a whole Chapters are evened So If this must so on let us all do it like Sirs and not like Trolls.

Thank you

LoneLictor wrote:

Tyr Grimtooth wrote:

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

Tyr Grimtooth wrote:
So just stop already. I showed you that BA come from a bunch of mutants and you needed to back track your pure blood statement. I showed you that the recruiting pool of the SW is superior to the BA, not only physically, but also in warrior culture and you try to downplay it. You can't even follow the BA codex where it says that the very best BA become Tactical Marines, thus foregoing their close combat weaponry completely.

The same way that you ignore that the Black Templars do the same thing except they don't put their most experienced troops at the back to shoot heavy weapons at people?

I haven't ignored you skirt wearers, I just haven't begun to address all your short comings yet.

Be careful about calling the Black Templars 'skirt wearers', especially when the Space Wolves you've been defending are.... (ahem)

Anti intellectual space furries (there is nothing wrong with being a furry by the way, just like there is nothing wrong with wearing a skirt) who were led by a drunken bafoon that went missing in the Eye of Terror after accomplishing nothing beyond driving the Thousand Sons to become Traitors, inadvertently hurting the Imperium. According to Deliverance Lost (a book I don't really like), they even have wolf DNA or something in their geneseed, meaning that they are dumber and hairier than other Chapters.

Bam.

EDIT: Since you can't hear me over the Internet, I'd like to clarify that I am speaking in a 'jesting' tone. I am not angry and I do not mean to seriously or personally insult anyone or anything.

Red: Well that speaks something of you ....
Blue:Bravo you haven't read any books,did you?Please don't insult something you don't know nothing about.(even in a jesting tone)...

DarthMarko wrote:

LoneLictor wrote:

Tyr Grimtooth wrote:

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

Tyr Grimtooth wrote:
So just stop already. I showed you that BA come from a bunch of mutants and you needed to back track your pure blood statement. I showed you that the recruiting pool of the SW is superior to the BA, not only physically, but also in warrior culture and you try to downplay it. You can't even follow the BA codex where it says that the very best BA become Tactical Marines, thus foregoing their close combat weaponry completely.

The same way that you ignore that the Black Templars do the same thing except they don't put their most experienced troops at the back to shoot heavy weapons at people?

I haven't ignored you skirt wearers, I just haven't begun to address all your short comings yet.

Be careful about calling the Black Templars 'skirt wearers', especially when the Space Wolves you've been defending are.... (ahem)

Anti intellectual space furries (there is nothing wrong with being a furry by the way, just like there is nothing wrong with wearing a skirt) who were led by a drunken bafoon that went missing in the Eye of Terror after accomplishing nothing beyond driving the Thousand Sons to become Traitors, inadvertently hurting the Imperium. According to Deliverance Lost (a book I don't really like), they even have wolf DNA or something in their geneseed, meaning that they are dumber and hairier than other Chapters.

Bam.

EDIT: Since you can't hear me over the Internet, I'd like to clarify that I am speaking in a 'jesting' tone. I am not angry and I do not mean to seriously or personally insult anyone or anything.

Red: Well that speaks something of you ....
Blue:Bravo you haven't read any books,did you?Please don't insult something you don't know nothing about.(even in a jesting tone)...

What the red part speaks about me is that I'm not an intolerant asshat. I don't give a feth what people wear or what they do in the privacy in their bedrooms.

As for the blue part, yes, it is in Deliverance Lost. Though it doesn't explicitly state that they are hairier and dumber, it does state that they possibly have some crazy wolf genetic stuff that would probably explain them being dumber and hairier than most other Chapters.

EDIT: And besides, the Space Wolves suck eggs compared to the Space Sharks anyways. Even if the Space Wolves weren't hairy idiots, they'd still be worse. And they'll always be worse.

I would say Carcharodons.

LoneLictor wrote:

DarthMarko wrote:

LoneLictor wrote:

Tyr Grimtooth wrote:

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

Tyr Grimtooth wrote:
So just stop already. I showed you that BA come from a bunch of mutants and you needed to back track your pure blood statement. I showed you that the recruiting pool of the SW is superior to the BA, not only physically, but also in warrior culture and you try to downplay it. You can't even follow the BA codex where it says that the very best BA become Tactical Marines, thus foregoing their close combat weaponry completely.

The same way that you ignore that the Black Templars do the same thing except they don't put their most experienced troops at the back to shoot heavy weapons at people?

I haven't ignored you skirt wearers, I just haven't begun to address all your short comings yet.

Be careful about calling the Black Templars 'skirt wearers', especially when the Space Wolves you've been defending are.... (ahem)

Anti intellectual space furries (there is nothing wrong with being a furry by the way, just like there is nothing wrong with wearing a skirt) who were led by a drunken bafoon that went missing in the Eye of Terror after accomplishing nothing beyond driving the Thousand Sons to become Traitors, inadvertently hurting the Imperium. According to Deliverance Lost (a book I don't really like), they even have wolf DNA or something in their geneseed, meaning that they are dumber and hairier than other Chapters.

Bam.

EDIT: Since you can't hear me over the Internet, I'd like to clarify that I am speaking in a 'jesting' tone. I am not angry and I do not mean to seriously or personally insult anyone or anything.

Red: Well that speaks something of you ....
Blue:Bravo you haven't read any books,did you?Please don't insult something you don't know nothing about.(even in a jesting tone)...

What the red part speaks about me is that I'm not an intolerant asshat. I don't give a feth what people wear or what they do in the privacy in their bedrooms.

As for the blue part, yes, it is in Deliverance Lost. Though it doesn't explicitly state that they are hairier and dumber, it does state that they possibly have some crazy wolf genetic stuff that would probably explain them being dumber and hairier than most other Chapters.

EDIT: And besides, the Space Wolves suck eggs compared to the Space Sharks anyways. Even if the Space Wolves weren't hairy idiots, they'd still be worse. And they'll always be worse.

So SM in a skirt - OK (probably because you are too)....and you judge wolves from "Deliverance Lost" (book about RG btw),seriously dude,that is where this conversation ends

It should have ended 2 pages ago. This thread has been nothing but a pissing contest since.

Orblivion wrote:It should have ended 2 pages ago. This thread has been nothing but a pissing contest since.

Sharks piss poison through their skin. Once again, the Space Sharks win.

LoneLictor wrote:

Orblivion wrote:It should have ended 2 pages ago. This thread has been nothing but a pissing contest since.

Sharks piss poison through their skin. Once again, the Space Sharks win.

I'll give you internet points for that, but that's all you're getting.

BloodAngels Brother wrote:If the best Become Tac Marines why is most of 1st Company Assault Squads? The Blood Angels do forgo a lot of finesse for pure hatred and power, but they are not mindless beasts to be thrown to slaughter; they fight as there primarch would with his power, in the case of a veteran Sgt who was able to take out a Chaos Dreadnought by allowing it to crush most of his lower body so that he could kill the pilot from underneath.

As for the recruits I don't have my codex on me but from what I have seen they go through the basics of every other chapters recruiting (there are exemptions to the rule but that's neither here or there).

From the SW side of the house you have to have fallen in glorious battle it states nothing of the combat ability of the individual or their physical condition...

Now to end all of this the whos right and who's wrong. No one is either. They are all Battle Brothers who excel at close quarters. Some Brothers are better than others within the Chapter but as a whole Chapters are even. If this must so on let us all do it like Sirs and not like Trolls.

Thank you

well, first off, fixed that for you, and second, I agree. The problem is no one is comparing feats, tactics, or much of anything.

Space Wolves 13th company.

Sent into the warp by Russ to hunt Chaos marines after the Emperor's enthronement, and emerged again during the 13th Crusade of Abaddon. As far as the fluff suggested, because of the time warping effects of the Eye of Terror, they are all original founding Space Wolves from the time of the Heresy, with all the inherent benefits over modern marines whose geneseed may have been watered down.

Hell, they use whole packs of Wolfen led by Wolf Priests as their elite assault units, and repair their armor with that of fallen foes. they also supposedly have better senses than even a modern Space Wolf, as (back when they were legal to field) the whole army (other than terminator armor and bikes) got to make a legal move before the players even roll to see who goes first.

Tyr Grimtooth wrote:So just stop already. I showed you that BA come from a bunch of mutants and you needed to back track your pure blood statement. I showed you that the recruiting pool of the SW is superior to the BA, not only physically, but also in warrior culture and you try to downplay it. You can't even follow the BA codex where it says that the very best BA become Tactical Marines, thus foregoing their close combat weaponry completely.

Blood Angel aspirants are not mutants, they are more like hard-bitten survivors of a Fallout-esque deathworld, replete with pockets of radiation, endless stretches of uninhabitable terrain and dust storms, cannibals, raiders, and all manner of mutated and deformed monsters. Fenris culture is basically tribes of coastal raiders/hunter-gatherers that are forced to pack up all their gak and fight among themselves for new patches of land every few years. Which makes for a superior recruiting pool is debatable. It's also debatable if the lives they lead before becoming full-fledged Space Marines have a huge bearing on their present skill-set. Many books give indication that Marines remember little from their "human" life, and a couple of decades (at most) of hard-scrabble living seems a drop in a bucket compared to centuries of battle and combat training.

Anyway, during the time of the Horus Heresy, the big rivalry for "most ferocious" Legion is between the World Eaters and Blood Angels, with the Space Wolves and Luna Hounds also being serious contenders. You could argue the Night Lords also had a terrifying reputation, but IMO they were terrifying mostly to helpless civilian populations. Their antics would have little effect on (and inspire even less respect in) other Astartes.

In modern times, the most ferocious Chapter is probably some off-shoot of Blood Angels. Space Wolves go through their reckless close combat-hungry phase as Blood Claws, but their enthusiasm is eventually tempered by experience and age, and they become more calculating and tactical warriors (Grey Hunters and then devastators). Likewise, Blood Angel recruits graduate to full service into Assault Squads, and only the most level-headed and experienced join tactical and devastator squads. While some Space Wolves do never graduate from the Blood Claws and/or succumb to their "inner wolf"(or whatever), this doesn't seem to happen with the same regularity as the Blood Angels' Red Thirst, particularly if you consider off-shoots like the Flesh Tearers, Angels Encarmine, or Knights of Blood.

Just how much ferocity translates to hand-to-hand prowess is also debatable. Skill can overcome raw fury and vice versa. Who would win in a fight would likely be determined by the individual marines.

The gene-seed of the Space Wolves gifts the chapter's members with enhanced, animalistic abilities, including hyper-acute senses of hearing and smell, and a ferocity in battle that is almost unrivaled by any other Space Marines

Lexicanum


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Omegus wrote:


Anyway, during the time of the Horus Heresy, the big rivalry for "most ferocious" Legion is between the World Eaters and Blood Angels, with the Space Wolves and Luna Hounds also being serious contenders. You could argue the Night Lords also had a terrifying reputation, but IMO they were terrifying mostly to helpless civilian populations. Their antics would have little effect on (and inspire even less respect in) other Astartes.

Well that's like just your opinion dude....

Yeah, "almost".

Omegus wrote:Yeah, "almost".

Touche...:-)But still

What's important is that you don't want to feth with any of them.

Some where I read that the space wolves look down upon the blood angels in combat because instead of fighting like an intelligent predator I,E wolf the instead fight like that of a rapid dog, (not word for word but the main sentiment is there)

Grey elder wrote:Some where I read that the space wolves look down upon the blood angels in combat because instead of fighting like an intelligent predator I,E wolf the instead fight like that of a rapid dog, (not word for word but the main sentiment is there)

Even a Wolf backed into a corner will fight like a rabid dog.

And the best Blood Angels don't become Tac Marines, They become Sanguinary Guard. Which are basicly Terminators with Jump Packs

BloodAngels Brother wrote:

Grey elder wrote:Some where I read that the space wolves look down upon the blood angels in combat because instead of fighting like an intelligent predator I,E wolf the instead fight like that of a rapid dog, (not word for word but the main sentiment is there)

Even a Wolf backed into a corner will fight like a rabid dog.

Incorrect Sir, it would fight like a cornered Wolf, and woe be to those stupid enough to corner it.

I'll throw out the Flesh Eaters, they truly are the futuristic vampires

This argument still ongoing? So I heard there's this basic reasoning that the Astartes that could beat the other Astartes in hand to hand would be the best in hand to hand. You people argue as if you have the knowledge to assume safely that one can beat the other. But when it comes to any type of martial victory, the victor is never strictly the strongest, most skilled, most ferocious, or the most lucky. It is a combination of all of these and the conditions, the chances, the timing, and the assets with which you fight that decides who beats the other. You can always think simple and watch the actions of the warrior, and presume that whoever is more skilled or experienced will emerge the victor, but know that behind any warriors action is many days of training, conditioning, mentality, plans, resources, knowledge gained that leads to any of millions of actions by these warriors that will ultimately decide the course of small moments in history. So with that in mind,I will go back to that question. Which of the Space Marine Chapters are the most adept in Hand to Hand? I can only answer by saying whichever Chapter that beats the other chapter in hand to hand.

redkommando wrote:And the best Blood Angels don't become Tac Marines, They become Sanguinary Guard. Which are basicly Terminators with Jump Packs

In relic armor.

Knights of Blood still most dangerous in cc.

Going on those choices, the SW 'caus they're hybrid wolves
But personally fluff wise the Disciples of Caliban also known as the DA are the best in combat. In fact they have 2 full companies based soley on combat (Deathwing and Ravenwing) and they wear robes and normally brandish swords. The origins of the chapter are also based on a Death World not so different to Catachan.

Wow, this turned into one heck of a thread didn't it?
I suppose i really haven't expressed my opinion on the mattter have I?

I would have to cast my vote for the Black Templars, that much Zealotry, and a doctrine of seeking out the biggest, baddest baddie the enemy has to offer, and coming away victorious has to make for some really strong warriors.

Just like the Space wolves, the templars test their new initiates by fire in the heat of close quarters battle, where they kill or be killed, learning from a senior member of the chapter.

Their most senior members still favor melee, unlike space wolves however, gaining some of the (likely) most potent weapons and armor in an Astartes Arsenal. I just envision a wave of Knights of Old, master swordsmen, but complete zealots for their cause, devotion unwavering.

I see Space Wolves and, Carcarodons as both being shock assault forces, hitting hard and fast, bleeding the enemy, then regrouping to fight again, which undoubtedly is effective.

I see the Blood Angels as being an Assault-favoring force, however their codex compliance I think limits their effectiveness somewhat, while they go full-on berzerker just like Space Wolves in combat, the fact that they can lose their minds makes their performance somewhat unpredictable in my book.

I suppose, it may also have to do with what enemy each chapter is fighting perhaps.

iGuy91 wrote:Wow, this turned into one heck of a thread didn't it?
I suppose i really haven't expressed my opinion on the mattter have I?

I would have to cast my vote for the Black Templars, that much Zealotry, and a doctrine of seeking out the biggest, baddest baddie the enemy has to offer, and coming away victorious has to make for some really strong warriors.

Just like the Space wolves, the templars test their new initiates by fire in the heat of close quarters battle, where they kill or be killed, learning from a senior member of the chapter.

Their most senior members still favor melee, unlike space wolves however, gaining some of the (likely) most potent weapons and armor in an Astartes Arsenal. I just envision a wave of Knights of Old, master swordsmen, but complete zealots for their cause, devotion unwavering.

I see Space Wolves and, Carcarodons as both being shock assault forces, hitting hard and fast, bleeding the enemy, then regrouping to fight again, which undoubtedly is effective.

I see the Blood Angels as being an Assault-favoring force, however their codex compliance I think limits their effectiveness somewhat, while they go full-on berzerker just like Space Wolves in combat, the fact that they can lose their minds makes their performance somewhat unpredictable in my book.

I suppose, it may also have to do with what enemy each chapter is fighting perhaps.

You just kicked the hornet's nest....and here we go again....

thenoobbomb wrote:

Seb wrote:No-one says Grey Knights?
They're a chapter IIRC, and they pretty much are better than any other chapter in any situation?

(Who said OP?)

Theyre not exactly codex, and more individual organisation.

And, if you happen to have read Emperor's Gift, don't hold a candle to the Wolves as warriors. They're just extremely well equipped specialists and specialists focused on ranged combat at that.

redkommando wrote:And the best Blood Angels don't become Tac Marines, They become Sanguinary Guard. Which are basicly Terminators with Jump Packs

The codex is quite clear that only the most experienced and level-headed Marines who have mastered their inner rage (to some extent anyway) get to be Tactical marines, and it is considered a very high honor.

Sanguinary Guard is for the best of the best. They are on a whole different level entirely.

Sanguinary Guard are Half Gods.

BA got Sangunior too , i dont think that SW can much that

DaddyWarcrimes wrote:

thenoobbomb wrote:

Seb wrote:No-one says Grey Knights?
They're a chapter IIRC, and they pretty much are better than any other chapter in any situation?

(Who said OP?)

Theyre not exactly codex, and more individual organisation.

And, if you happen to have read Emperor's Gift, don't hold a candle to the Wolves as warriors. They're just extremely well equipped specialists and specialists focused on ranged combat at that.

This is, of course, utter hyperbole and fanboyism, since the only actual GK vs. Space Wolves combat we see is when Logan Grimnar himself (yes, that Logan Grimnar) gibs a GK with a surprise attack. Granted, it was a high-ranking (GM?) GK, but from the start he was written to be as unlikable as possible and you knew he was going to bite the bullet. That was one of the few bits of poor writing in an otherwise excellent book.

Omegus wrote:

redkommando wrote:And the best Blood Angels don't become Tac Marines, They become Sanguinary Guard. Which are basicly Terminators with Jump Packs

The codex is quite clear that only the most experienced and level-headed Marines who have mastered their inner rage (to some extent anyway) get to be Tactical marines, and it is considered a very high honor.

Sanguinary Guard is for the best of the best. They are on a whole different level entirely.

"The Sanguinary Guard are the uttermost elite of the Blood Angels, proven in mind, body and spirit to uphold the values of their illustrious Primarch to an extent that no other can."
"To join the ranksof the Sanguinary Gurad is therefore no mere battlefield assignment, nor even an honour. Rather it is to enter a brotherhood of mortals-become-gods. . . "

And the Sanguinary Guard are still part of the BA chapter, so they still count. I'm not saying because the BA's have them, that makes BAs the bestest ever in HtH. What I am saying is that the best of this chapter are HtH specialists, whilst the best of the SW become either Long Fangs or eventualy get to Wolf Guard (which doesn't mean your amazing at H2H, its easyier to get into the Wolf Gurad than it is to the Sanguinary Guard)

And anyway, why don't we just say that There are several chapters that are great at close combat, but they specialise in different areas of H2H.
BT- Dueling and Personal combats (Enemy Leaders and such)
BA- Rage filled Genocide (Hordes)
SW and Space Sharks- Shock and Awe (A little bit of both)

redkommando wrote:And anyway, why don't we just say that There are several chapters that are great at close combat, but they specialise in different areas of H2H.
BT- Dueling and Personal combats (Enemy Leaders and such)
BA- Rage filled Genocide (Hordes)
SW and Space Sharks- Shock and Awe (A little bit of both)

I agree on every count. There is no other way to decide, because no specifics were laid down in the original question.

Pada wrote:BA got Sangunior too , i dont think that SW can much that

O yeah they have great 13th,Wulfen and Bjorn( living relic who fought with E )in most advanced Dred Armor.....

and there is also wolfguard which are demigods FOR ME...

But this thread lost objectivity 3-4 pages ago - there's no way you can say "these are better than these"...
I know from my pov on fluff that nobody can top the SW in ferrocity and you know that BA are the best - so let's leave it there - this is to much vague topic to discuss

I don't think you get how the Wulfen is essentially the same thing as a BA suffering from the Black Rage/Red Thirst.

Except lesser, because you forget the Wulfen are what aspirants who fail turn into. They aren't a big part of the army. it's not a bonus to their skill. It's a "if you succumb you are exiled and forced to hunt in the wilderness like an animal", either that or be part of a small minority who become hulking bloodthirsty beasts when greatly stressed. (from the SW codex)

Elector wrote:I don't think you get how the Wulfen is essentially the same thing as a BA suffering from the Black Rage/Red Thirst.

Except lesser, because you forget the Wulfen are what aspirants who fail turn into. They aren't a big part of the army. it's not a bonus to their skill. It's a "if you succumb you are exiled and forced to hunt in the wilderness like an animal", either that or be part of a small minority who become hulking bloodthirsty beasts when greatly stressed. (from the SW codex)

But they are used as a weapon, aren't they(when somebody needs to break the line ) ? And I belive Russ is somewhere in the warp still- with his wolfguard and Sanguinius is KFC :-) ....

Tyr Grimtooth wrote:
I haven't ignored you skirt wearers, I just haven't begun to address all your short comings yet.

Dark Angels wear skirts, Black Templars wear Tabards.

McNinja wrote:
Thank you

well, first off, fixed that for you, and second, I agree. The problem is no one is comparing feats, tactics, or much of anything.

Atleast Sanguinius saved the world from chaos when dying.

thenoobbomb wrote:Atleast Sanguinius saved the world from chaos when dying.

I think you'll find that what he did was die. Not sure how that's gonna save anyone.

DarthMarko wrote:
But they are used as a weapon, aren't they(when somebody needs to break the line ) ? And I belive Russ is somewhere in the warp still- with his wolfguard and Sanguinius is KFC :-) ....

KFC? Did you just call him Kentucky Fried Chicken? (And no, the Wulfen are not used in that sense. Not based on any readings I found in the codex. The Death Company, OTOH, are used like that, yes).

I don't object to the notion that the SW are very talented in close combat. What I object to is your implying that every other Chapter is a bunch of pansies who can't handle close combat. The Blood Angels, and, more especially, the Black Templar, are also very powerful and skilled hand-to-hand fighters. The difference is each Chapter has their own specialization and fighting style, each very effective.

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

thenoobbomb wrote:Atleast Sanguinius saved the world from chaos when dying.

I think you'll find that what he did was die. Not sure how that's gonna save anyone.

Depends on how you view the "Chink in Horus' armor" bit of fluff.

Elector wrote:

DarthMarko wrote:
But they are used as a weapon, aren't they(when somebody needs to break the line ) ? And I belive Russ is somewhere in the warp still- with his wolfguard and Sanguinius is KFC :-) ....

KFC? Did you just call him Kentucky Fried Chicken? (And no, the Wulfen are not used in that sense. Not based on any readings I found in the codex. The Death Company, OTOH, are used like that, yes).

I don't object to the notion that the SW are very talented in close combat. What I object to is your implying that every other Chapter is a bunch of pansies who can't handle close combat. The Blood Angels, and, more especially, the Black Templar, are also very powerful and skilled hand-to-hand fighters. The difference is each Chapter has their own specialization and fighting style, each very effective.

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

thenoobbomb wrote:Atleast Sanguinius saved the world from chaos when dying.

I think you'll find that what he did was die. Not sure how that's gonna save anyone.

Depends on how you view the "Chink in Horus' armor" bit of fluff.

Yep I' did (because of the wings and fight with Horus obviously :-)But I love the guy so don't be offended, he is my number 2 awesome primarch ....and btw on Prospero wulfen did break the line of TS slaughtering everybody until Magnus toss them around....
And where did I piss on BA or BT ? I simply speak for SW and point the obvious....

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

Tyr Grimtooth wrote:
I haven't ignored you skirt wearers, I just haven't begun to address all your short comings yet.

Dark Angels wear skirts, Black Templars wear Tabards.

As Brother Ramses posted at the Bolter & Chainsword (who also posts here);

"DA wear dresses. BT wear skirts. BT are just a sluttier and trashier version of DA."

Tyr Grimtooth wrote:

"DA wear dresses. BT wear skirts. BA are just a sluttier and trashier version of DA."

Did you just insult an army because they do not wear skirts or dresses? BA wear pants!

thenoobbomb wrote:

Tyr Grimtooth wrote:

"DA wear dresses. BT wear skirts. BA are just a sluttier and trashier version of DA."

Did you just insult an army because they do not wear skirts or dresses? BA wear pants!

Yea, I edited it to clear it up. But since you do bring up BA, the nipple armor does beg the question, why?

guys all SM wear Power Amor
some just put a leather upon in

wearing a skirt or dress over pants is not cool.

Tyr Grimtooth wrote:

thenoobbomb wrote:

Tyr Grimtooth wrote:

"DA wear dresses. BT wear skirts. BA are just a sluttier and trashier version of DA."

Did you just insult an army because they do not wear skirts or dresses? BA wear pants!

Yea, I edited it to clear it up. But since you do bring up BA, the nipple armor does beg the question, why?

Actually, in Ancient Roman art, scenes with Roman Emperors or the gods depicted highly ornamented "muscle cuirasses" (the kind Sanguinary Guard wear. Shows the idealized muscular physique). Often with nipples and a belly-button.

If you go by that, it makes sense.

Sigismund wasn't the first Emperor's Champion for nothing!
Fluff says no one ever beat him in a duel.
Black Templars all the way!

Yeah... as per brutality and pure robustness, I'll call Space Wolves as one on the top. As for zealousness and blood-craving, Flesh Tears and Minataur come pretty close but as for the actual skill with the blade, I'll have to name GK or Black Templars.

Sorry but someone said that Wulfen are aspirants who fell to the curse? this is correct to some degree but any space wolf can become a wulfen, so if it were a WG it would be a whole lot more dangerous than a barely initiated marine. I'd say that if that were the case then Wulfen would definitely be par with DC, in some cases surpassing them in ferociousness.

I would of said flesh tearers they are so aggressive and assualt oriented they have almost driven themselves to extiction.

And gabriel seth is just the coolest chapter master ever

MonsterofFenris wrote:Sorry but someone said that Wulfen are aspirants who fell to the curse? this is correct to some degree but any space wolf can become a wulfen, so if it were a WG it would be a whole lot more dangerous than a barely initiated marine. I'd say that if that were the case then Wulfen would definitely be par with DC, in some cases surpassing them in ferociousness.

Those who suffer from the Curse after the first time are a minority, and those who do succumb after the initiation are either reined in by the Wolf Priests (who basically stop them from fully descending into the bestial madness) or are considered irredeemable.

You don't stay in a battle company as a Wulfen. It's a fall from grace. (and I did mention those who can succumb later)

redrooster148 wrote:I would of said flesh tearers they are so aggressive and assualt oriented they have almost driven themselves to extiction.

And gabriel seth is just the coolest chapter master ever

The Flesh Tearers are extremely aggressive and ferocious, and I love how Gabriel Seth is devoted to turning his Chapter from a untrusted force with a grim reputation into one that would be remembered in the halls of glory. It's a nice addition to the fluff that really redeems them (and Seth) as tragic warriors in my eyes.

But they aren't near extinction because of their aggressiveness, they're rushing headlong into extinction because the rate that they succumb to the Black Rage is higher than the rate at which they can produce more Marines. Eventually they'll run out of the sane ones.