So, I was planning on going to the local tournament. But then I looked at the WYSIWYG rules (Which were verified by the TO) and it seems that it's up to your opponent if they will allow your WYSIWYG indiscretions. I was planning on going and running my Choppa Boyz as Shoota Boyz, but now I'm very wary.

Essentially, I could go pay my qualifier entry fee, qualify, pay my admission price to the tourney, get to my first round of invitational games, and get disqualified before round one even begins because my opponent yells "WYSIWYG Foul!" which is perfectly within his rights.

So, the question is, what to do now? Do I start trying to convert all these damn Choppas to Shootas (Which always look kinda bad and off balance to me) or do I sell off the army?
I'm considering selling only because painting another 120 boyz to a good standard is just...too much to bear.

And if I AM converting, does anyone have any suggestions on how to do it gracefully? So that they look "Not Stupid"?

Also, a while back KingCracker suggested just gluing a Shoota to their backs to cover WYSIWYG, but I've had people say that it's not legal. Any advice?

You're in a time crunch. I say play a list that runs with the
Choppaz OR start work on Shootaz and run the majority of
your list with the Choppaz and supplement with however
many Shootaz you can get done (either by conversion or starting
fresh).

It's not the best solution, but I think it works given your situation.

have to agree with the above post. Either try to paint/convert up new shoota boys and run a mix of both, or maybe buy/trade some already painted shoota boys?

Maybe longate their sluggas and say they are shootas?

how much time do you have?

Check with your TO to see if the Shoota on the back thing would be a legal thing at his tournament. Explain the situation to his as you have to us and maybe he'll give you a lean on it. It's worth checking out.

MightyGodzilla wrote:Check with your TO to see if the Shoota on the back thing would be a legal thing at his tournament. Explain the situation to his as you have to us and maybe he'll give you a lean on it. It's worth checking out.

I don't see why a Shoota on the back would be illegal. The figure is armed with both, it's up to you how you run him.

If you decided to go the conversion route, it might be possible to add a shoota magazine and elongate the gun/barrel slightly so the sluggas are noticably larger? You could also put smaller blades on the choppas or convert them to brass knuckles so as to draw more visual attention to the enlarged shoota/slugga.

Good luck with whatever path you take.

I modded a unit by filing down the barrel end flush with the main body of the slugga, then gluing a cylinder to the end, and a smaller short cylinder near the bottom edge, to look somewhat like an old-schoool machine gun.

My cylinders were round eraser inserts for mechanical pencils, and refills for those eraser sticks that you can click down.

Cost very little, and easily available at officemax or similar.

They cut easily, glue easily (superglue) and take paint well.

I also use the long skinny eraser-stick refills for fuel lines, hydraulic tubes etc as they are flexible

It took me less than an hour to convert 30 sluggas to shootas, not counting the painting

Yeah, I'm starting to think that conversion is the way forward, but damn they look bad.

Drill holes into the end of axes, add a clup or something to it,
Say its a gun axe.

hotsauceman1 wrote:Drill holes into the end of axes, add a clup or something to it,
Say its a gun axe.

Haha. Nice. Thanks.

Eilif wrote:I don't see why a Shoota on the back would be illegal. The figure is armed with both, it's up to you how you run him.

The TO might be a HAAC. Better safe than sorry. But I don't see why'd be illegal either.

hotsauceman1 wrote:Drill holes into the end of axes, add a clup or something to it,
Say its a gun axe.

Dammit HotSauce. You make me lol sometimes.

Just make the Shootas.

Don't sell off your Choppas, you'll probably regret it when either the 6th edition Ork Codex or 7th edition comes out and Choppas are the overpowered unit of choice again.

*Never* convert based on the rules, or you'll end up like one of those people who spraypaints their marines a new colour every time the new codex comes out.

This is one of those times where I can see both sides.

It's very easy when running a list that you know is all shootas to remember that sluggas are shootas. But I've played against that exact list (and I'm a reasonably sharp player), and damn if I wasn't shocked turn two when 180 shoota shots rained down on my army.

the point is, regardless of what the TO says, you're asking your opponents to sacrafice some of their convenience so you can play an optimized list. Most guys wont' complain, but they're still taking a hit (and often don't want to appear as TFG).

Dammit. Trapped between two MLP avatars makes me wanna ditch my shade wearin piranha for PinkyPie or DJPon3. Happy Friday everyone!

Power tools at this moment are your friends.. I have used a dremel to lop off the arms of a choppa boy and add the bits for shoota.. after a little bit of trial and error, and some green stuff.. You will never be able to tell

Hand swaps are really easy to do too, if you have a bunch of spare shoota arms. Nothing says thay have to have both hands on the gun at all times, after all

On the subject of conversion methods, A dremel is good if you have very stable hands, but you should at least get a razor saw. Those suckers will slice through plastic like butter and give you a really flat surface on which to glue the new piece. I don't even use the handle attachment as the blade in my palm gives me plenty of control.
I recommend the 42 teeth version for fast cutting.
http://shop.hobbylobby.com/products/saw-blade-765693/
54 teeth is "finer" but takes longer and binds up easier without much difference in results.

You could even do it assembly line style where you paint all the magazines, hands and gun extensions and then glue them on.

My plan for my slugga mobs is to hand swap, or simple extend some barrels and try to avoid repainting entire models. As some of my models arms are pinned in via Micro Art and Kromlech bodies, I may just try to remove the gun arm completely, and paint a whole lot of shoota arms.

Its not ideal, but its what it is. Plus its still cheaper then painting ALOT more shoota boys.

Honestly, I don't imagine I'll ever EVER paint another 120 boyz. Just not fun in any way, and not worth it if that's what it takes to stay legal.
I'll either convert or just proxy them.

Personally id do as previosuly suggested and glue the other gun to the back or on the base in some fasion, IIRC its not illegal at all doesn't wyswig state you can have gear that isnt active?

5ed has this to say

‘What You See Is What You Get’

Character models in particular tend to have a lot
of options as to what weapons and wargear they
can use – given in the army list of their Codex.
The rule is that such equipment must be visually
represented on the model so your opponents can
clearly see what they are facing. This concept is
often referred to as WYSIWYG, which stands for
‘what you see is what you get’.

Of course, many gamers enjoy trying out different
combinations of wargear in different battles.
So, for example, a player might decide that for his
next game a model’s power sword will simply
count as a close combat weapon, but he will also
equip the model with melta bombs. While some
tournaments may be more strict about this kind
of thing, most opponents are happy to
accommodate a small degree of one thing
counting as another, so long as you explain
exactly who has what at the start of the game.

As you can see the only point it makes is that gear used MUST be modeled in some fashion so as not to confuse an opponent. There is nothing illegal about ataching a shoota anywhere on your models. As a courtesy it ought to be pointed out to the person your playing however.

What 5th has to say isn't really relevant anymore...

Don't glue the gun to the back, that's overmodelling and considered poor form.

I would just get a ton of shootas and start converting or run with what you have.

Weren't shootas better than choppas in 5th as well?

What 5th has to say isn't really relevant anymore...

Find me a wysiwyg reference in 6ed.

Edit: In the end its up to the TO's of course but you could also conceivable invoke "counts as".

In the long run, you could lop off all the Slugga hands and replace them with shoota hands. This would allow you to run it either way with little issue. You could say either, "I converted them. The Shoota looks more menacing than the slugga, but I'm using them as sluggas. You can tell what it's supposed to be, because he's also wielding a choppa," or, "It's a Slugga. They look cooler with two weapons. I've replaced all the sluggas with shootas. The models are WYSIWYG, since the slugga doesn't count as an off-handed weapon."
You're covered, either way.

Eric

Cry "WYSIWYG Foul!" which is perfectly within his rights

It would take a real punk to do something like that. This is especially the case when it's easy enough to tell your opponent at the start "every Ork in these big horde units is armed with a shoota". But sadly at a tourny you are more likely to run into some idiot with a WYSIWYG fetish.

I don't envy you. I've got a big Space Ork army myself and have had some WYSIWYG issues before in regards to it.

TR

Dont mod your slugga boyz, the rules might change again.

Buy new orks or run with what you have. The heavy weapons and the nob define the squad far more.

Jerseydevil posted this in a similar thread. I think it looks solid.

jerseydevil wrote:I would just extend the barrel and magazine on the slugga. I might try this just to see how it looks.

ok, I tried it and I think it looks good enough for a shoota. You could do the same to regular shootas to make big shootas.

Lt.Soundwave wrote:

What 5th has to say isn't really relevant anymore...

Find me a wysiwyg reference in 6ed.

Edit: In the end its up to the TO's of course but you could also conceivable invoke "counts as".

That's my point. The problem is that the event requires it.

pretre wrote:

Lt.Soundwave wrote:

What 5th has to say isn't really relevant anymore...

Find me a wysiwyg reference in 6ed.

Edit: In the end its up to the TO's of course but you could also conceivable invoke "counts as".

That's my point. The problem is that the event requires it.

WYSIWYG is pretty well implied in the power weapons section where it states that a model is armed with the type of power weapon it physically has on it. But, you're correct, it's not stated outright. However, most tournaments are WYSIWYG.

For my part, I support the gunblade/axe idea.

I think the TO should just make a ruling in advance...

if *all* your slugga choppa are counts as shoota, there's no confusion...

There still can be, as Polonius pointed out.

Doing this is basically putting the onus on all of your opponents to constantly remember, because you didn't want to go to the trouble of re-modeling a horde army when an edition changed.

This is something pretty much every tournament player goes through every time a new rulebook or codex for their army comes out. I've got a dozen painted vehicles for my BA. Do you know how many of them are in my list for tomorrow? Three.

The problem is exacerbated for the horde players, and we all sympathize. But that's the nature of the game, and it always has been.

Modeling shoota/choppa is confusing as all hell and totally unfair if you attempt to run them as both shootas and slugga.

Honestly AoBR boyz and shoota arms are so insanely cheap you can build shoota boyz for less than a dollar a boy.

It is very annoying when slugga boyz suddenly begin shooting as shoota boyz and as an ork player it is totally unreasonable. Besides, shoots have been king for 5+ years now as choppas have been dead since The 4th edition codex.

Shoota boyz should not be carrying a choppa. It is confusing to opponents. There is no valid way to equip an ork boy with both weapon options and for it to be fair.

nkelsch wrote:Modeling shoota/choppa is confusing as all hell and totally unfair if you attempt to run them as both shootas and slugga.

This is true (though I wouldn't be as emphatic), however I think the OP is going to run them all as Shootas so it shouldn't be an issue. As long as all figures armed the same way represent the same loadout you shouldn't have any problems.

It's only really a problem when you run some as slugga/choppas and some as shootas. That would be terribly confusing for an opponent facing an Ork horde.

I run only shootas. I have been since I started playing about 2 years ago. This would be my first tourney, and probably the only kind of situation where I'd even be worried about this whole dilemma. I've had these AOBR boyz since I started playing and honestly, I have never met someone who called me on it. I just say at the beginning of the match. "I'm running all shootas" and it's cool. However, I can imagine this turning in to a huge problem at a tournament where money and prizes are involved. Hence the topic.
I believe what I'll do is bow out of the tournament, and just continue being a casual player. The 100+ hours of painting and the $200 or so dollars involved is far and away too much for me to reinvest just to play legally at some tourneys which I'm unlikely to place in anyway.
Thanks for all the advice guys, very much appreciated.

This kind of event might not be ideal for you. I wouldn't let it keep you away from more casual local tournaments, though. I find that (especially as a busy, working adult) they're one of the best opportunities to check out some awesome armies and get multiple games in a single day, often against new people and armies.

Can someone briefly explain why Shootas are so much better that you must rebuild a whole army instead of just sticking with Choppas?

Well, I can't really explain why in all that crazy metagame lingo that all the pro players can wrangle up, but I can say this.
Sacrificing a single CC attack per boy, to get two ranged attacks at 18" and one additional str than the slugga just makes sense.
The sense is that your boy is more flexible.

**actually sluggas and shootas ARE the same str. My bad.

I'd just ask the TO if it's ok to run your Sluggas as Shootas. I also wouldn't modify your current Sluggas, it's always best to keep what you already have and just add to it rather than modifying/selling portions of your army.

Since when were shootas S 5?

Both shoota and slugga are 4. BIG shootas are 5

Shootas are more damaging when snapshotting a charging unit, and have a greater threat radius,

I have a bunch of both kinds I used it as an excuse to buy more boyz ..

deathholydeath wrote:

pretre wrote:

Lt.Soundwave wrote:

What 5th has to say isn't really relevant anymore...

Find me a wysiwyg reference in 6ed.

Edit: In the end its up to the TO's of course but you could also conceivable invoke "counts as".

That's my point. The problem is that the event requires it.

WYSIWYG is pretty well implied in the power weapons section where it states that a model is armed with the type of power weapon it physically has on it. But, you're correct, it's not stated outright. However, most tournaments are WYSIWYG.

For my part, I support the gunblade/axe idea.

Im not arguing that it isnt used. I was pointing out the most up to date information regarding the rule is in the 5th ed rulebook. In either case BOTH adding the shoota to the models as well as invoking counts as would be perfectly legal. Barring TO stating otherwise.

I don't think "Count's As" has anything to do with this. CA is for cool modeling ideas that represent something else in the rules. It is a bridge between creative license and rules. This is just "I don't want to use this particular loadout anymore".

my response would be stop playing a ridiculous game that requires you to paint 120 orks....that reason is one of the chief reasons i started warmachine instead of painting my 180 member waaaaagh.
I say model the slugga into a shooota.

matphat, IMO, in general you will be fine if you sling sluggas on their backs, as long as you run all shootas.

Cut off the axe and put another gun in the other hand.

That way they can be two weapons, or fire both as shootas as a neat "conversion", depending on list.

What you could do is a variation of something used in WFB a lot, a unit filler type thing.
say you have your 120 boys in 4+ mobs, but they all have slugga and choppa, and half are ran as shootas. How about making some kind of 'token/banner' to accompany each unit? Could be as simple as a 40mm base with a flag, painted with either s+c or shoota, up to something more ornate and theme-fitting... Just make sure it is big, noticable (so opponent doesnt have to remember every mob, he can just look for the token), and that obviously tied to a certain mob.

Cheap, quick, takes the pressure off the opponent to remember, could look really cool...

Couldn't you cut the barrel off a shoota and glue it onto the slugga?

I've converted a shoota into a big shoota by trimming the end of the barrel down and gluing another barrel on along with an extended bullet belt (I saw it in the old Ork codex) so I don't think changing a slugga into a shoota would be too much hassle.

Unless you got most of your Orks from Black Reach sets you must have loads of spare shootas about the place.

Then you've got models who are either armed with shootas or are packing some hefty sluggas.

Keep the choppa boyz: Editions and codexes change.

Next codex the chopas will get rending under the waagh or something and you'll be kicking yourself in the ass that you got rid of them.

Solution= start collecting shoota boyz.

Any self respecting Warboss knows you can never have too many boyz...


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Bullockist wrote:my response would be stop playing a ridiculous game that requires you to paint 120 orks.

Do we really need to shoehorn these sorts of comments into an otherwise perfectly fine conversation.

But since you insisted I'll point out that Warmachine has also changed the effectiveness of models, so lets not pretend otherwise. My squads of trenchers used to work one way and then they changed smoke rules, etc.

Same with Haley, etc.

So no Warmachine is not the answer, nor is it immune to the problem discussed here. Can we get back on-topic now?


In any game which survives to have multiple rules editions and army lists things change. Players have to learn to adapt to those changes, ride out the changes until the next update (hoping for somethign more to thir liking) or be willing to buy into the new hotness.

I feel for the OP as I am in the same boat, however I just accept that I dont have enuff shootas to run a greentdie army and go with Battlewagon orks instead.

Counts As at a tournament is disrespectful to your opponent who has taken the time to model all his stuff WYSIWYG (maybe having to run a less then optimal list to do so)

However having become more of a WHFB player these days my orks seldom leave the shelf as I cant be bothered to spend the $300 I need too to make them work in 6th.

Well, I've more or less reconciled this issue by dropping my interest in tourney play.
My entire army is perfectly WYSIWYG accept my boyz, and they will NEVER be. And I'm ok with that.
I've never had a friendly game where someone had a problem with me running sluggas as shootas and I've also never had anyone "forget" they were shootas mid game either.
I'm happy to keep it friendly if that means I don't have to spend 200 bucks and 100 more hours of modeling and painting.
Perfectly fair trade in my opinion.

Fight like an Ork. The idiot boyz who turned up at this battle brought axes to a gunfight? Laugh as they're mown down, and laugh all the more when some of them hit the enemy and start carving the gun-toting gitz into small chunks of meat.

You're list is sub-optimal. Live with it. And enjoy the game!

(Seriously though, 120 Slugga boyz may not be as good as shoota boyz, but it's in no way a bad thing and can spend the entire game running. It'll be a laugh. Why yes I did lose repeatedly with a footslogging 3rd Ed codex Ork army, why do you ask?)

Mannahnin wrote:There still can be, as Polonius pointed out.

Doing this is basically putting the onus on all of your opponents to constantly remember, because you didn't want to go to the trouble of re-modeling a horde army when an edition changed.

This is something pretty much every tournament player goes through every time a new rulebook or codex for their army comes out. I've got a dozen painted vehicles for my BA. Do you know how many of them are in my list for tomorrow? Three.

The problem is exacerbated for the horde players, and we all sympathize. But that's the nature of the game, and it always has been.

I agree with the above.

WYSIWYG is not about some bizzare modeling dream cooked up by the design studio; it's about giving your opponent the very visual remeinder that these boys are x, not y. Handing him a list he has five minutes to look at (at most), and giving him a quick reminder may not suffice, especially when the day is long after three games in.

My point for you is- 120 boyz.


You can take away 31 or so. one turns into a Nob- (who is probibly different, anyway), the other couple turn into heavy shootas, then cut off the arms of the other 28 or so, and add in the extra shoota arms and snacks from the other sprues that you haven't used. the arms come off easily enough, just be careful not to lop off a tip of your finger, and cut away from yourself- down onto a cutting board, or so.

The arms are green, dry brush a lgihter shade, and the gloves, are either black or brown. the shootas themselves only need a black base coat, and drybrush metal for laughs, and a lighter shade of metal on and maybe a detail or two if you want to. Other then that, 1 Nob, 3 heavy shootas, which can be put together from parts from some extra shootas, and some of that sprue material, and a few of the cut off bits from the slugga's- mainly the drums, magazines/ or both.

Should be a day worth of a couple of hours painting and putting the arms back on. If you drybrush, or wash the arms, it won't even take that long.

I had the same issue with this, I used the old 2nd edition guys to begin with, then added in a couple of those 16 boyz boxes to change up the fill. You can either add them in, or change out the 31 that you were going to use that had the slugga/ choppa combo. ( Its an either or answer at the end of the day. Me? I would, if I were you, just use the same guys. They don't come as cheap as they once did.)

What you want to do is to use the shootas as the screen force.
Put the shoota mobs in front, the others behind, the first mob gets up there with the shots, the second uses shoota mob to screen, and runs in through mob 1, and has its mass screened and gets into close combat with the extra boyz. Make sure you have the space to run through with the other boyz. Some people get particular when they figured out too late, what you are going to be doing.

Just make sure you have enough arms and shootas to do the job with or some of them are going to be running around with one or no arms.

Had this issue as well.


Just my opinion. good luck to you.

I'm just going to end with this:

Why have 120 boyz when YOU CAN HAS 240!?

That is all.

malfred wrote:I'm just going to end with this:

Why have 120 boyz when YOU CAN HAS 240!?

That is all.

QFT

I can understand people having a problem with counting sluggas as shootas if you ran mobs of both types in a single game, but honestly, anybody who would have a problem about you counting every slugga as a shoota is probably not worth your time to play against anyway.

Like the two dudes I played against in two different tournaments last year who had combi-meltas on all their Wolf Guard, but none of them modeled? And coincidentally both had squads of long fangs modeled with a variety of weapons, but (shockingly) were playing them all as missile launchers?

In both cases, it was pretty easy to remember that "all the wolf guard have combi-meltas", and "all the heavy weapons are missile launchers", but it was still taking the piss in a serious way. I understand that collecting, building and painting all the right pieces for the most optimized possible list is a substantial investment of time, effort, and money. But feth, if you're going to play the goddam list, at least do me (and all your other opponents) the courtesy of collecting, painting and fielding the frickin' models. Instead, we had the joy of not only playing against the most common netlist, but having to tolerate proxies because the player was lazy and cheap.

I understand that 120 sluggas vs. shootas is another level of difficulty, time and expense. But it's a difference only of degree, not of kind. This is a modeling hobby. We all deal with the logistical and financial hurdles of fielding the optimized lists, or we compromise and don't max out our lists in favor of fielding the models we own and/or are able and willing to build and paint. I don't think it's cool to put the burden of acceptance and complaint on your opponents. It's taking the piss. It's being selfish and ungentlemanly. I was polite to both of those SW players. They were both younger guys and I was as encouraging and friendly as possible in talking with them about their modeling efforts. But it was stupid and annoying to look at on the table.

In fantasy, even the studio cuts corners on things like this... i.e., great weapons in the second rank, 2 hand weapons in front. It just sucks that GW alternates which has playable rules with every single edition.

Not saying it's OK to proxy, but it makes me want to play another game.

Seriously, I bust my ass to model combis and make sure all my wargear is correct. It isn't rocket science, just takes a bit of work.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh and I would object to proxying and am still worth playing.

RiTides wrote:In fantasy, even the studio cuts corners on things like this... i.e., great weapons in the second rank, 2 hand weapons in front. It just sucks that GW alternates which has playable rules with every single edition.

Fantasy has, at least in the past, had a rule that the majority of the unit must be appropriately armed. Of course, in fantasy you're also building and painting 3-4 times as many models, and can "hide" a lot of them in the back ranks.

Agreed, Mann- was just an example that came to mind and one that particularly bothered me when I played fantasy, since it was clear why the change was being made to the rules.

I'm rather late to the party, but did you try checking with the TO?

Mannahnin wrote:
In both cases, it was pretty easy to remember that "all the wolf guard have combi-meltas", and "all the heavy weapons are missile launchers", but it was still taking the piss in a serious way. I understand that collecting, building and painting all the right pieces for the most optimized possible list is a substantial investment of time, effort, and money. But feth, if you're going to play the goddam list, at least do me (and all your other opponents) the courtesy of collecting, painting and fielding the frickin' models. Instead, we had the joy of not only playing against the most common netlist, but having to tolerate proxies because the player was lazy and cheap.

Exalted.

I do feel like that's a bit of a different issue, though (as Mannahnin said in the next paragraph). I would hate for someone to have to chop up 120 well painted models... but what can you really do?

Again in fantasy, but I converted my models to be somewhat generic in terms of their weapons... it's just hard when you're doing so many and then they hit with pillow fists due to a rules change. I see the fault with the company... but obviously, players using combi-weapons should darn well have them modelled...

Yeah, but that's part of the game. Editions and codexes change and models go in an out of style. A broad collection is the best defense. I have stacks of bits and models that used to be good in one edition or codex or another. A little remodeling, some touch ups and they are good as new.

I actually rather enjoy that part. It gives a completely painted and modeled army new life when you need to update it.

RiTides wrote:I do feel like that's a bit of a different issue, though (as Mannahnin said in the next paragraph). I would hate for someone to have to chop up 120 well painted models... but what can you really do?

You can do what most sensible people playing a game would do and count the sluggas as shootas.

helium42 wrote:

RiTides wrote:I do feel like that's a bit of a different issue, though (as Mannahnin said in the next paragraph). I would hate for someone to have to chop up 120 well painted models... but what can you really do?

You can do what most sensible people playing a game would do and count the sluggas as shootas.

Stop equating a want for WYSIWYG with a lack of sensibility or presence of dickishness. It undermines your argument.

We all appreciate WYSIWYG. It protects us from having to exchange notes with our opponents before a game that highlight all of the different wargear we might be proxying on a regular basis. The difference between our stances is that you are asking for a black and white solution, where I have a shades of grey solution. Somebody wanting to count all sluggas as shootas in his army is not going to mentally tax his opponent or create any problems for the regular person. That person pretty much follows WYSIWYG. Somebody with a several different counts-as pieces, who needs notes to keep track of them is potentially causing problems for his opponent and is not at all following WYSIWYG.

You can live in your OC black and white world and worry about somebody who might roll into your FLGS with sluggas that count-as shootas, and I'll live in my shades of grey world and not sweat the small stuff.

Bit this thread is about tourneys. If the tourney wants wysiwyg then counts as sluggas as shootas is not allowed and to show up and expect rules not to apply to you is rude.

Casual play, feel free to ask for exceptions. Tourneys, you know the rules for the event. Follow them or stay home.

Besides, shootas have been king for 5 years now. And you can ebay aobr boys and shoota arms for around 1$ per boy or even less with some effort. Of all of units in all the codex, it is the easiest to make, cheapest to expand and you should have been slowly massing shootas for 5 yeArs now. Claiming you need to proxy nOw doesn't ring true to me And reeks of people not wanting tourney rules to apply to them.

My vote is also for slinging the shootas on their backs.

If this tournament allows 3rd party bits, get ones from Kromlech because they're nice. Alternately, you can use these pistols because they are still clearly big enough to be shootas, but a little more compact. The reason I suggest one of these is because you won't have to figure out the grips.

However, I would not glue them. After painting them, I'd glue a pin into the guns - a longish one. Then I'd drill a pinhole in the back in an unobtrusive place where it looks natural to hang. In my experience, a good pin - the thickess of a paper clip - will hold them in place quite well for casual use, but still allow them to be removed for playing them as Choppa Boyz.

I'm not seeing the issue with modelling them exactly as they are listed in the book, with both a Slugga and Choppa.

Well I play a good number of tournaments and if someone had a 120 black reach orks, and said "They're all shoota's" before the game I would have no problem with that.

My problem is when they have 1 guy in the unit with a melta-gun who's not modelled, and he can't seem to remeber which one he said exactly has the melta.

Thanks for all the responses guys. And I appreciate the lively debate. I have however, bowed out of tourney play for just the arguments stated above. I started playing about a year and a half ago, and I got all my boyz from the AoBR set. I was a new player, and not versed in how important WYSIWYG is in tourneys, I was really just following the 5th Ed. statement that count as is a very accepted practice. And so I never stopped to consider how that might impact me later.
I'm not inclined to redo 100+ hours of painting (I try to paint to a good table top standard) and $200 to make myself tourney legal. It's just not worth it to me. I'd rather just keep playing friendly games where if someone has a problem with my counts as, I can apologize for the inconvenience and move on to someone who doesn't. For the record, no one has ever declined to play me because of it, and no one has ever had a problem remembering that I was running shootas (Which I have done since I started playing)
I respect the TOs decision. I just don't intend on ever, ever, ever, painting up another 120 boyz. Did I mention ever?

Why does that make you want to not paly tournaments. I can understand not trying to play them as shootas, but why not play tournaments with sluggas?

I am going to do a full blog post on this eventually, but I plan to keep all 130 of my boyz as sluggas. The fact that no retreat wounds is gone means that more boyz will stick in combat. This means that it is ever more important to have an extra 20 or 30 attacks in the later rounds of the fight. Taking subpar guns in my eyes is not worth losing that extra attack.

Yeah, I would just run them as what I have. Wouldn't be the first time I didn't take the 'omg most optimal' choice because of model availability.

Mostly because I don't like running sluggas. I don't really like how orks play as a CC army.

pretre wrote:Yeah, I would just run them as what I have. Wouldn't be the first time I didn't take the 'omg most optimal' choice because of model availability.

You make it sound as if taking the best option for your army is a bad or shameful thing. It is a shame that there are so many people responding against counting the sluggas as shootas that the OP is discouraged from even attempting to play them as such in a tourney that would allow it, and on top of it, has to feel like a WAAC player for even considering it.

The point of WYSIWYG is to prevent confusion, and I don't think counting a bunch of slugga boys as shoota boys, if they're all shoota boys is confusing at all.

I understand WYSIWYG with respect to, say, special weapons, but as long as it's not confusing, it's a very grognardy thing to prevent people from playing what they want.

Wait, you don't like running them but painted up 120 of them anyways?

This would be a case in point for playing your army a couple times before fully buying/completing it.

Or, you grew tired of them, in which case I feel for you.


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helium42 wrote:

pretre wrote:Yeah, I would just run them as what I have. Wouldn't be the first time I didn't take the 'omg most optimal' choice because of model availability.

You make it sound as if taking the best option for your army is a bad or shameful thing. It is a shame that there are so many people responding against counting the sluggas as shootas that the OP is discouraged from even attempting to play them as such in a tourney that would allow it, and on top of it, has to feel like a WAAC player for even considering it.

You are completely misreading me, which is probably my fault. First off, drop the WAAC business. That's just silly. Taking the best option is not a bad or shameful thing. Proxying the best option is. When I have been faced between the choice of proxying or fielding a slightly less effective option, I will always go with the latter.

As well, the specific tourney that he was considering weighed in on the subject before the thread was even started. It is too bad that he swore off all tourneys because of this, but that is what happened.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Panzeh wrote:I understand WYSIWYG with respect to, say, special weapons, but as long as it's not confusing, it's a very grognardy thing to prevent people from playing what they want.

What is the point of calling people names because they want to have people play WYSIWYG? It is happening way too much in this thread.

pretre wrote:Wait, you don't like running them but painted up 120 of them anyways?

This would be a case in point for playing your army a couple times before fully buying/completing it.

Or, you grew tired of them, in which case I feel for you.

I'm just going to quote myself from about halfway up this page...

matphat wrote:"I started playing about a year and a half ago, and I got all my boyz from the AoBR set. I was a new player, and not versed in how important WYSIWYG is in tourneys, I was really just following the 5th Ed. statement that count as is a very accepted practice. And so I never stopped to consider how that might impact me later."

Yeah, I read that previously. I guess the problem then is that Playing Sluggas as Shootas is not counts-as but proxy. The previous editions had statements regarding counts-as, which is often confused with proxy, but is different.

I can certainly understand the confusion though.

I wouldn't worry too much. I play sub-par lists all the time at tournaments and still finish in the top half.

Besides it's good to shake yourself out of running the same list all the time. Makes you develope new tactics and sometimes you'll be like "Wow why did I never think of that before!"

Thanks. I'm more or less over the whole thing at this point. It was discouraging to find out that I'd either need to build all new models or forget the tourney, but ultimately I think I made the right decision. I love to model and paint, but I don't love the monotony of modeling and painting that many of the same model.
I bumbled in to 40k with no real guidance, and played my first 10 games with another person who had no idea what they were doing. It's kind of rearing it's ugly head now, but I'm not going to let it keep me from at least enjoying friendly games.

Theres nothing wrong with that. Issue comes up as was told by Mann, that you go in playing with one weapon on the model, then three turns in," in the heat of it", you have an issue of changing the weapon. ORKS- it is a very big deal.
It is one thing to have 120 guys screaming across the table- all with the same stuff. It is entirly a whole new war when you are sitting there mid move, stalling out the clock trying to figure out which of the boyz was supposed to have been the proxy Shootaz and Lootaz, while the other guys were supposed to be in which fireteam grouping.

I had an issue with this myself. then I got smart and just up and cut off arms and weapons, added what was supposed to be there, and never had issue again. it was a costly lession all around, and I didn't do myself any favors on it.
What happens is=
You more or less are going to get a finger wag from the refs, you opponent is going to have a bad taste in thier mouth, and your going to be confused the rest of the way through the games when you have the same issue- for three more opponents. People don't hgave patience for those kinds of "OOPS" plays in a regular game. They get hot about it in tournies. especially the indecision parts. people have a habit of getting into all of your calls at that point. Not many people like that sort of situation.

As an ork player- You might invest in buying some second or third hand shoota mobs, and some extra heavy stubber boyz. Then they are differently modeled guys, you are not going to have to work too hard to fit them into the Waagh! and they give the army that come one, come all look.

30 or so guys shouldn't be that big a deal. That, or maybe you can trade some of the 120 off to another ork player that might need some extra close combat love.

I don't see a need just to outright blow off the extra firepower. Your going to need it if even half of whats being said about the 6th edition is true. Your going to really need it when those chargers come up short on you, and you have those guys there to mow those that want to test the waagh, and come up short on a charge.

Then the close combat guys roll up from behind them and finish what the shootaz started.

I understand about those AOBR guys, though. theres no getting around those sculpts. Try looking around for some Bits deals, too. You can find plenty of half put together mobs, and extra weaponry from other factions. Use a few tau guns, IG guns, and eldar guns, with some other stuff tacked in there for the mix. Maybe even unify the look by using scraps from other armies per mob.

Thats a good thing about Orks. Anything works well, as long as you put a good coat of red paint on it.
If you want it to work extra well, put on two coats.

Don't be discouraged from playing in a tournament or two, once in awhile. its a completly different mindset, and the stakes are much higher- You truly see a different side of 40K, thats for sure.

Goood luck on those guys, though.

matphat wrote:Thanks. I'm more or less over the whole thing at this point. It was discouraging to find out that I'd either need to build all new models or forget the tourney, but ultimately I think I made the right decision. I love to model and paint, but I don't love the monotony of modeling and painting that many of the same model.
I bumbled in to 40k with no real guidance, and played my first 10 games with another person who had no idea what they were doing. It's kind of rearing it's ugly head now, but I'm not going to let it keep me from at least enjoying friendly games.

I'm just saddened to hear that you decided to stay away from tourneys as a whole. For me, tournaments are a great way to meet and play people outside of my normal gaming circle. You get to see armies you don't see during your usual game nights, and you generally will run into stronger lists which is challenging and fun.

I think you are hearing a very vocal minority in this thread. I can't recall a tournament I have played in where I didn't come up against somebody with a WYSIWYG issue, but beyond playing one bizarre entire counts-as army, I never had a problem with it. I don't think you would have any problems in your case with either tournament organizers or players. And if a TO did have an issue, you can always simply decline to play.

helium42 wrote:I think you are hearing a very vocal minority in this thread. I can't recall a tournament I have played in where I didn't come up against somebody with a WYSIWYG issue, but beyond playing one bizarre entire counts-as army, I never had a problem with it. I don't think you would have any problems in your case with either tournament organizers or players. And if a TO did have an issue, you can always simply decline to play.

Except most tournaments require WYSIWYG. So you are saying in the majority of your tournaments, folks aren't playing by the rules. That is pretty out there.

pretre wrote:

helium42 wrote:I think you are hearing a very vocal minority in this thread. I can't recall a tournament I have played in where I didn't come up against somebody with a WYSIWYG issue, but beyond playing one bizarre entire counts-as army, I never had a problem with it. I don't think you would have any problems in your case with either tournament organizers or players. And if a TO did have an issue, you can always simply decline to play.

Except most tournaments require WYSIWYG. So you are saying in the majority of your tournaments, folks aren't playing by the rules. That is pretty out there.

It's out there, but very true

Guess that isn't my experience.

pretre wrote:Except most tournaments require WYSIWYG. So you are saying in the majority of your tournaments, folks aren't playing by the rules. That is pretty out there.

WYSIWYG is to prevent shenanigens, especially in tournaments. I have yet to see a serious tournament not enforce it.

As for the OP, I would just take a sharp #11 blade and cut off the choppas and slugga gun barrels, then glue on Shoota gun barrels to the pistol boddies. No need to repaint the whole legion, just touch up the hands and gun barrels.

Or you could just play them as Slugga/Choppa boyz.

matphat- A number of us have suggested slinging sluggas on their backs. Have you considered this? Wouldn't require taking a knife to your painted models.

RiTides wrote:matphat- A number of us have suggested slinging sluggas on their backs. Have you considered this? Wouldn't require taking a knife to your painted models.

That doesn't make them wysiwyg as it is over modeling. Giving a boy a slugga, shoota and choppa is even more confusing. That is like giving every sarge a power sword, axe and fist and choosing what you need at gametime. In a tourney your opponent is back to not understanding what the model is and having to use paper lists to decode.

Besides, there are very valid reasons to take both shootas and sluggas in the same list. To limit yourself to only one kind you are doing yourself a disservice.

I have never seen a tourney where non-wyswiyg upgrades was allowed. And shoota/choppa is an upgrade and not base equipment like marines who just come with everything.

nkelsch wrote:I have never seen a tourney where non-wyswiyg upgrades was allowed. And shoota/choppa is an upgrade and not base equipment like marines who just come with everything.

While I agree in theory, this is certainly not the case in practice... at least in tournies I've been to. Not saying that's OK, but there's a difference between what's OK "in theory" and what actually transpires in tournies. I'd be shocked if you had personally been to even a few tournaments and not seen at least ONE case of a non-wysiwyg upgrade, in your words.

I would, Personally, have no problem playing against his 120 boyz in a tournament, if he put the sluggas on their backs. YMMV...

scarletsquig wrote:Just make the Shootas.

Don't sell off your Choppas, you'll probably regret it when either the 6th edition Ork Codex or 7th edition comes out and Choppas are the overpowered unit of choice again.

*Never* convert based on the rules, or you'll end up like one of those people who spraypaints their marines a new colour every time the new codex comes out.

I agree, I have units in my arsenal that I do not use but hope one day will be viable.

Just to nit-pick though, the marines thing is slightly off as there is no ruling on army colorations only on weaponry. So someone who re-sprays their army for FOTM is showing even more signs of weakness than to simply keep them the color they like (no matter what codex it might have been influenced from) and focusing on the correct weapon loadouts.

I recently played in the first to fight in Raleigh NC at the new GW store and ran my Ultramarines (Alpha Company of the Ultramarines as I call them) and used the BA book for my 500pt list. Not one person complained, matter of fact I had more people asking if they could pick up and look at my miniatures (even ones they saw in my case) which was refreshing.

Anyways, back to the topic at hand. I think that keeping your Choppas is the best route, you never know when they might be useful again and having put all that time and dedication into them would hurt so much more if in a year you find yourself wishing you had them again. In the event you invest in new models you might consider magnetizing them, if possible, to help alleviate possible problems in the future. I magnetized the right arm of my assault squad Sgts for example so I could equip them with different weapons. (I do realize doing a whole army would be much more daunting of a task though).

pretre wrote:Yeah, but that's part of the game. Editions and codexes change and models go in an out of style. A broad collection is the best defense.

The best defense is simply not to have anything to do with rules that change to sell more miniatures. 6 editions and they still can't get the points cost/balance right for ork boyz with two different weapon load outs?

It's part of the game because the commercial interest is corrupting the game design to sell models. Or incompetence in game design after 25 years of GW failing to get things right.

I'm beginning to see the wisdom more and more in having miniatures from one company and rules from another. No conflicts of interest in game design that way.

I'm also a non-tournament player, who's never really gotten the desire for things to be "legal" or "official." If I did happen to find myself in a 40k tournament and an Ork player told me his slugga boyz had shootas, I'd be like "Cool. Let's play."

frozenwastes wrote:

pretre wrote:Yeah, but that's part of the game. Editions and codexes change and models go in an out of style. A broad collection is the best defense.

The best defense is simply not to have anything to do with rules that change to sell more miniatures. 6 editions and they still can't get the points cost/balance right for ork boyz with two different weapon load outs?

It's part of the game because the commercial interest is corrupting the game design to sell models. Or incompetence in game design after 25 years of GW failing to get things right.

I'm beginning to see the wisdom more and more in having miniatures from one company and rules from another. No conflicts of interest in game design that way.

I'm also a non-tournament player, who's never really gotten the desire for things to be "legal" or "official." If I did happen to find myself in a 40k tournament and an Ork player told me his slugga boyz had shootas, I'd be like "Cool. Let's play."

I feel you on that, my Sanguinary Guard sport the weapons out of the box and WYSIWYG in 5th ed was fine for Power weapons, now those axes do not function was I intended them to upon construction. Now when I use them I always tell my opponent "This whole squad is power weapons" they were intended to be that way until rules changed what power weapons were and I'd really rather not destroy models just to put a different weapon in their hand. Haven't had any complaints about that squad yet.

frozenwastes wrote:

pretre wrote:Yeah, but that's part of the game. Editions and codexes change and models go in an out of style. A broad collection is the best defense.

The best defense is simply not to have anything to do with rules that change to sell more miniatures. 6 editions and they still can't get the points cost/balance right for ork boyz with two different weapon load outs?

It's part of the game because the commercial interest is corrupting the game design to sell models. Or incompetence in game design after 25 years of GW failing to get things right.

I'm beginning to see the wisdom more and more in having miniatures from one company and rules from another. No conflicts of interest in game design that way.

You're coming at it like these changes are a flaw and incompetence. SOME of the changes are legitimate errors, but the general idea of a new rules release changing what the best units and combinations of units are is not a terrible thing. 6th has massively shaken up the play environment and "metagame", refreshing a game which for many had grown a bit stale. Right now when I sit to make lists I'm struck with a torrent of ideas and considerations and guesses about what kinds of armies I'll be facing. The three lists I faced Saturday at the FoB qualifier were all new and different. The week before the tournament I found myself breaking out my Farseer, some Defenders who hadn't seen the table in quite some time, and painting a whole squad of Harlequins!

If you look at painting and modeling as a chore and a hurdle and a tax you have to pay before you get to do the fun part (playing the game), and if you don't want that fun part refreshed and thrown into upheaval ever four years, I can definitely see how you'd read it as a fundamental flaw of the game. instead, I think it's part of why the game has lasted so long, and the company been successful. Each release changes things and freshens the waters and encourages buying and painting new stuff, which is also a legitimate and enjoyable part of the hobby.

frozenwastes wrote:I'm also a non-tournament player, who's never really gotten the desire for things to be "legal" or "official." If I did happen to find myself in a 40k tournament and an Ork player told me his slugga boyz had shootas, I'd be like "Cool. Let's play."

Essentially its in contradiction to the point of miniatures wargaming- which is the unique and compelling experience of having a tactical game with these awesome minis which provide a direct and clear visual reference for the units in the game. There are historicals wargamers out there who have never played a tournament in their life who will refuse out of pride to ever field an unpainted model. Folks who don't want to field a unit if it's painted with the wrong historical unit markings. From a traditional standpoint, even wanting to field a unit that's not as representative/WYSIWYG as you can make it is weird. Part of the joy is modeling it right and the pride you take in your army.

I don't mind a re-balancing to freshen things up, Mann... but it seems to me that when GW "rebalances" they make common units non-competitive, and others must-haves.

One example that still bothers me are hive guard (the shooty elite option). Sooooooooooooooooooooo good rules-wise that you absolutely must take them. For a while, hormagaunts seemed almost non-viable... now I guess they are again, but who wanted to just keep a closet-full of hormagaunts around for when that day came?

I think they go beyond re-balancing... another example is DoA blood angel armies, which can no longer function as intended (must start on the board). You can still do a hybrid, starting some things on the board and some off, and as such they'd still be plenty competitive... but if someone was playing only that style list, I can see it bothering them that they can no longer field the army they'd intended. Also since that's not an old codex, so GW had to know the change was coming when they put it out...

I'd rather have painted sluggas counting as shootas on the table than unpainted shootas.

Mannahnin wrote:
You're coming at it like these changes are a flaw and incompetence. SOME of the changes are legitimate errors, but the general idea of a new rules release changing what the best units and combinations of units are is not a terrible thing. 6th has massively shaken up the play environment and "metagame", refreshing a game which for many had grown a bit stale.

What about if they actually got things right so every option in a codex was viable and you had more variety all the time, rather than just when the edition changes to sell different models?

Right now when I sit to make lists I'm struck with a torrent of ideas and considerations and guesses about what kinds of armies I'll be facing.

And then it will coalesce as people figure out what works and what got the shaft with the latest update and things will get predictable again. Then GW will re-release either the codex or the game itself and everyone who wants to stick with it will get the honour of buying again.

If you look at painting and modeling as a chore and a hurdle and a tax you have to pay before you get to do the fun part (playing the game), and if you don't want that fun part refreshed and thrown into upheaval ever four years, I can definitely see how you'd read it as a fundamental flaw of the game.

No, painting is my favorite part of the hobby. It's a problem with the game because it's a form of intentional obsolecense designed to drive those who stick with GW's games longer than GW expects them to stay to buy more miniatures.

Professional game designers given 25 years of time should have been able to get it right-- since they haven't, I'm guessing the motivation for this game design approach is commercial-- it's been corrupted by interests outside of making the best game possible.

instead, I think it's part of why the game has lasted so long, and the company been successful. Each release changes things and freshens the waters and encourages buying and painting new stuff, which is also a legitimate and enjoyable part of the hobby.

It's their demo sales process and ability to market their product that has allowed it to last so long. Jervis has said that more than half their customers never play their games. They're interested in painting, modeling and collecting and don't get negatively effected by these types of changes. These changes are here for marketing purposes-- the hype of a new edition and the churning of armies among those who stick around longer than the two years or so GW expects their customers to stick around.

frozenwastes wrote:I'm also a non-tournament player, who's never really gotten the desire for things to be "legal" or "official." If I did happen to find myself in a 40k tournament and an Ork player told me his slugga boyz had shootas, I'd be like "Cool. Let's play."

Essentially its in contradiction to the point of miniatures wargaming- which is the unique and compelling experience of having a tactical game with these awesome minis which provide a direct and clear visual reference for the units in the game.

No, it's being an understanding dude who doesn't expect someone to replace 100+ miniatures (or hack them apart and repaint) just because GW is churning purchasing by changing the new hotness to something else.

There are historicals wargamers out there who have never played a tournament in their life who will refuse out of pride to ever field an unpainted model. Folks who don't want to field a unit if it's painted with the wrong historical unit markings. From a traditional standpoint, even wanting to field a unit that's not as representative/WYSIWYG as you can make it is weird. Part of the joy is modeling it right and the pride you take in your army.

Completely agree here. But the strength of not having your figure manufacturer be your rules publisher is that whatever set up of equipment your model has needs to be properly represented in the rules. If some publisher puts out a rules set where the standard weapon of the day is garbage and there's no reason to use it, either it will get errataed, house ruled or people will pick other rules sets. Historical players also have more of the DIY spirit where they are often collecting both sides of the game and running it for others, so they're willing to make changes or get a different set of rules as needed.

RiTides wrote:I don't mind a re-balancing to freshen things up, Mann... but it seems to me that when GW "rebalances" they make common units non-competitive, and others must-haves.

One example that still bothers me are hive guard (the shooty elite option). Sooooooooooooooooooooo good rules-wise that you absolutely must take them. For a while, hormagaunts seemed almost non-viable... now I guess they are again, but who wanted to just keep a closet-full of hormagaunts around for when that day came?

I think they go beyond re-balancing... another example is DoA blood angel armies, which can no longer function as intended (must start on the board). You can still do a hybrid, starting some things on the board and some off, and as such they'd still be plenty competitive... but if someone was playing only that style list, I can see it bothering them that they can no longer field the army they'd intended. Also since that's not an old codex, so GW had to know the change was coming when they put it out...

Again, it comes down to broad collections versus one list armies. If you collect only one list worth of an army, yes when things change you will be in trouble. Heck, if the players in your area learn how to deal with your one list you will probably be in trouble, outside of an edition change. As trite as it sounds, 40k is a hobby and you're not meant to collect exactly 2000 points and be done with it. I don't believe that GW has ever supported a list, but has always supported the armies that the list comes from (with a few exceptions). DOA may not be viable, but Blood Angels are.

frozenwastes wrote:What about if they actually got things right so every option in a codex was viable and you had more variety all the time, rather than just when the edition changes to sell different models?

Damned if you do, damned if you don't. People get bored with the same game. If they didn't mix things up, people would be complaining about how they face the same armies all the time and nothing ever changes.

And then it will coalesce as people figure out what works and what got the shaft with the latest update and things will get predictable again. Then GW will re-release either the codex or the game itself and everyone who wants to stick with it will get the honour of buying again.

In 4 years, sure. For the amount of play that I get out of the rulebook and codex for my army, I don't mind paying every four years. Just like D&D and a number of other hobbies, I play the gak out of my games and get my money's worth. I don't begrudge GW a rulebook and a codex every 4 years. As for the list changing, I collect broad collections to insulate myself against army change and so that I have variety on the tabletop when I want it. This is the best approach to dealing with edition changes.

No, painting is my favorite part of the hobby. It's a problem with the game because it's a form of intentional obsolecense designed to drive those who stick with GW's games longer than GW expects them to stay to buy more miniatures.

Wait a second! A miniature company wants us to buy miniatures? No way! To be serious though, I think that GW's motivation behind new editions is to energize the base. They produce new kits to get people to buy new miniatures, but new editions are just ways of getting people who fell to the wayside back in the game. Similar tactic to big patches and expansions for MMOs or DLC for other games. It gets people back in when they might have gotten bored. People who come back to a game often spend money and bring friends who spend money. Winwin.

Professional game designers given 25 years of time should have been able to get it right-- since they haven't, I'm guessing the motivation for this game design approach is commercial-- it's been corrupted by interests outside of making the best game possible.

You're missing the point. They have had it right 6 times now. People enjoyed their game and there wasn't really a reason to change it beyond people like change. You want to play 2nd edition? Guess what, it is still there. Want to stay in 5th? Go for it. Want to enjoy a new experience and new game? Play 6th. For every person who complains about a new edition, there are two who are excited to see what new things are available and someone who comes back because they got bored of the old one. There's a reason no rpg/miniature gaming company puts out one edition and then sells it for 25 years. Even if it was the most perfect system ever designed, people would get bored.

No, it's being an understanding dude who doesn't expect someone to replace 100+ miniatures (or hack them apart and repaint) just because GW is churning purchasing by changing the new hotness to something else.

We don't expect or require him to do so. He would do fine in a tournament with 120 slugga/choppas. If he wants to field shootas though, he needs to replace them. This has nothing to do with GW and everything to do with HIS preference, as he said earlier in the thread. He just doesn't like slugga/choppas and feels like he should just proxy them for shootas. Not the edition change, not the codex change, not the metagame change, his preference.

helium42 wrote:
I'm just saddened to hear that you decided to stay away from tourneys as a whole. For me, tournaments are a great way to meet and play people outside of my normal gaming circle. You get to see armies you don't see during your usual game nights, and you generally will run into stronger lists which is challenging and fun.

I think you are hearing a very vocal minority in this thread. I can't recall a tournament I have played in where I didn't come up against somebody with a WYSIWYG issue, but beyond playing one bizarre entire counts-as army, I never had a problem with it. I don't think you would have any problems in your case with either tournament organizers or players. And if a TO did have an issue, you can always simply decline to play.

I appreciate that you are showing empathy for my situation, and yes, it's a bit of a bummer. However, considering that the invitational is $75 and the big prize is a 1500pt army, I'm not inclined to put myself in the "line of fire" for people who might just see my slugga boyz as an opportunity to call WYSIWYG rules for a free win, and a chance to put a player out of the running. What would suck more than anything would be to go to the tourney, pay my fee, and then not get to play because of this issue. Maybe some day, in the future, if someone hands me a bag full of shoota boys, I'll consider it again.

RiTides wrote:matphat- A number of us have suggested slinging sluggas on their backs. Have you considered this? Wouldn't require taking a knife to your painted models.

I actually have about 90 of the old shootas that came separate from the boyz arms for just such a project, but I've been told repeatedly that this is considered "over modeling" and even more confusing than just proxying.

The longer this discussion continues, the happier I am that I decided not to go. Sounds like a lot of people would be happy to bring the WYSIWYG hammer down, as I suspected. Which is totally their right, and I'd have no option but to respect the ruling, and pack up, and go home.
It's just much, MUCH easier, in every regard, to just stay home, save my $75, continue to proxy my boyz wargear, and play friendly games.

Well, I'd still have no problem playing you in a tourney, fwiw. It's less confusing than many things I've faced in tournies.

Paste bolters to their bases.

matphat wrote:

helium42 wrote:
I'm just saddened to hear that you decided to stay away from tourneys as a whole. For me, tournaments are a great way to meet and play people outside of my normal gaming circle. You get to see armies you don't see during your usual game nights, and you generally will run into stronger lists which is challenging and fun.

I think you are hearing a very vocal minority in this thread. I can't recall a tournament I have played in where I didn't come up against somebody with a WYSIWYG issue, but beyond playing one bizarre entire counts-as army, I never had a problem with it. I don't think you would have any problems in your case with either tournament organizers or players. And if a TO did have an issue, you can always simply decline to play.

I appreciate that you are showing empathy for my situation, and yes, it's a bit of a bummer. However, considering that the invitational is $75 and the big prize is a 1500pt army, I'm not inclined to put myself in the "line of fire" for people who might just see my slugga boyz as an opportunity to call WYSIWYG rules for a free win, and a chance to put a player out of the running. What would suck more than anything would be to go to the tourney, pay my fee, and then not get to play because of this issue. Maybe some day, in the future, if someone hands me a bag full of shoota boys, I'll consider it again.

RiTides wrote:matphat- A number of us have suggested slinging sluggas on their backs. Have you considered this? Wouldn't require taking a knife to your painted models.

I actually have about 90 of the old shootas that came separate from the boyz arms for just such a project, but I've been told repeatedly that this is considered "over modeling" and even more confusing than just proxying.

The longer this discussion continues, the happier I am that I decided not to go. Sounds like a lot of people would be happy to bring the WYSIWYG hammer down, as I suspected. Which is totally their right, and I'd have no option but to respect the ruling, and pack up, and go home.
It's just much, MUCH easier, in every regard, to just stay home, save my $75, continue to proxy my boyz wargear, and play friendly games.

Or just avoid the whole situation by playing slugga boyz, as slugga boyz, and not invoke the wysiwyg hammer by trying to make your army more competitive without actually changing the models. No one should have to "hand you a bag of shoota boys", do it yourself, or live with what you have.

This thread has turned into whether or not you should or shouldnt be allowed to use them as shoota boyz, and how to best do that to accommodate you. And I get it, you want shoota boyz because you feel they're currently better. But tough crap. Maybe the solution is just for you to run your sluggas, as sluggas, and play by the rules like everyone else.

Hell there's lots of armies I'd LIKE to run but I don't have the models or the time/inclination to buy/build/paint them, my response isn't "can i just use my current models as different ones? no? well then I wont play". I just use things that aren't totally optimal, and you know what - it all works out just fine in the end.

Even in a competitive event winning isn't everything, nor do 99% of the players who play in said event feel that it is. They wouldn't be bringing the "wysywig hammer" down on you for a free win, they'd be bringing it down because you were breaking the tournament rules that you signed up for, acknowledging you would follow, and then didnt. I like that you state "which is totally their right", but I sense you, though you may feel it is their right, are placing some sort of negative connotation on them exercising it, as is they're doing it just to be mean to you/gain an advantage. Any player you play in a tournament SHOULD bring it up to the TO if their opponent is so blatantly not following the rules.

In the future, just play sluggas, as sluggas, and love them for who they are in all of their sluggay goodness. Then you wouldn't have gotten into any of these debates/arguments/etc. over whether or not you could break the tournament rules and still play.

My .02, because at the end of the day, even in a tournament setting - this is a game we all play for fun, you shouldn't feel so pressed to gain a bit more of an advantage through running sluggas as shootas that not being allowed to keeps you from participating in a day/weekend full of games with your peers.

Over-WYSIWYG (i.e shootas on the backs of the orks) is rarely frowned at and should be perfectly fine.

Target wrote: Iget it, you want shoota boyz because you feel they're currently better. But tough crap. Maybe the solution is just for you to run your sluggas, as sluggas, and play by the rules like everyone else.

Actually, I've always run my AoBR slugga boyz as shootas in friendly the games I've played. But you would know that if you had been reading the thread.
I also don't play for competitive edge (I play Orks), nor have I ever been to a competitive event (hence this issue just coming up), so, your argument that I'm trying to squeeze out additional advantage is pointless and seems more intended to insult me than offer anything constructive.
I started this thread to try and find a consensus on what people think of the challenge I was facing, and what my options are, not to get reamed by people like you.
You might even have a opinion worthy of considering, but I'll never know, because your response is obviously meant as inflammatory, and an attack, and that forces me to dismiss everything you say.
Welcome to ignore.

Target wrote:
My .02, because at the end of the day, even in a tournament setting - this is a game we all play for fun, you shouldn't feel so pressed to have to go out and purchase/paint 120 new shootas just because a few obsessive-compulsive people feel that it the only way to play the game.

Fixed that for you.

Helium, if you can't express your opinion without insulting people, maybe you need to take a break from the discussion?

pretre wrote:
Damned if you do, damned if you don't. People get bored with the same game. If they didn't mix things up, people would be complaining about how they face the same armies all the time and nothing ever changes.

They can mix things up with new releases. If shoota boys are awesome now and sluggas will slowly dwindle away, how is that better than them balancing the game, getting it right and you seeing an equal variety of both shootas and sluggas? If they stopped intentionally botching the balance and actually got it so everything was really worth its points, you'd see greater variety and more mixing things up, not less.

Wait a second! A miniature company wants us to buy miniatures? No way!

I have this crazy idea that miniatures should be able to stand on their own merit without a rules set artificially devaluing some purchases and increasing the value of others.

I collect broad collections to insulate myself against army change and so that I have variety on the tabletop when I want it. This is the best approach to dealing with edition changes.

40k and WFB already have such a high figure count that most of their customers quit before ever getting to a full sized game (if they play the rules at all, because according to Jervis, most don't bother). If the game is designed such that getting an optimal use of it as a product requires "collecting broadly" and buying even more miniatures than you would use in a game, something is wrong. Very wrong.

For every person who complains about a new edition, there are two who are excited to see what new things are available and someone who comes back because they got bored of the old one.

Made up statistics are fun!

GW's core customer base are what Jervis called "craft hobbyists" who don't play their rules. I'm one such individual. And I can see I've made the right decision as I have never felt the need to replace up to 120 models in my army like the OP because the rules suddenly change and make a different equipment load out way, way better.

matphat wrote:However, considering that the invitational is $75 and the big prize is a 1500pt army, I'm not inclined to put myself in the "line of fire" for people who might just see my slugga boyz as an opportunity to call WYSIWYG rules for a free win, and a chance to put a player out of the running. What would suck more than anything would be to go to the tourney, pay my fee, and then not get to play because of this issue. Maybe some day, in the future, if someone hands me a bag full of shoota boys, I'll consider it again.

Here's the thing. Due to your lack of experience, you are guessing about what would actually happen, and making inaccurate suppositions about the nature of these events.

1. In literally scores of tournaments (maybe over a hundred, at this point) over more than a decade, I cannot remember the last time I actually saw a person DQ'd for failure to be WYSIWYG. I have seen a bunch of people break the modeling rules, but have rarely met a TO firm enough to actually kick someone out over it. While they theoretically could, in practice what happens 99%+ of the time is that people are unhappy about it, they resent it, and they may complain to one another, but no one wants to be the bad guy, kick a player out and ruin his day or his weekend. Despite the fact that the non-WYSIYWG guy is the one breaking the rules, and imposing on everyone else's tolerance of his failure to model properly. It's an issue of courtesy and respect, for the game and our opponents. It's a fundamentally social exercise, and the vast majority of gamers are too friendly and insufficiently confrontational to call a person on it, unless perhaps the non-WYSIWYF player compounds the issue by being nasty, cheating, or other antisocial behaviors.

2. As you said, the cost of playing at a big event is usually $50-$100, and the prizes we're talking about are not poker prizes. No one is trying to make a living as a tournament 40k player. It costs way more in time and money to get an army, get it ready, travel to and play in an event than you're going to win back in cash prizes. No one's really there for the prizes. They're there to play games, hang out with other gamers, ooh and aah over great armies they haven't seen before, and compete for bragging rights and the respect of their peers in the toy army men community. You shouldn't be worried about some hyper-competitive guy just waiting to NAIL you and give you a forfeit for breaking the rules, because his whole focus is the win at any price. Those guys are rare. Vanishingly so at big events, because, again, the prizes aren't worth the effort. Guys who act like that become pariahs in the community and lose out on all the social enjoyment of these events. 1 guy out of 50 or 100 or 200 will win overall. So it's a sucker's game to compete with your enjoyment dependent on winning the whole thing. If you're participating with the right attitude, you win just by attending, because the social and gaming experience of playing that many games, against great-looking armies, on great terrain, with other dedicated hobbyists, and admiring each other's armies, is the point. And that doesn't depend on whether you win or lose.

matphat wrote:

RiTides wrote:matphat- A number of us have suggested slinging sluggas on their backs. Have you considered this? Wouldn't require taking a knife to your painted models.

I actually have about 90 of the old shootas that came separate from the boyz arms for just such a project,

If you have 90 shootas, you could certainly re-model many of your existing boys with fairly minimal effort. Yes, painting 90 shootas and cutting and repairing 90 boys is a good bit of work, but certainly not as much work as starting a second army; and many folks do that just about every year. If fielding the shootas is that important to you, then it's worth the effort. If it's not important, why stress about it? Sluggas may well still be good, particularly given the improvements to Fearless in the current edition.

matphat wrote:The longer this discussion continues, the happier I am that I decided not to go. Sounds like a lot of people would be happy to bring the WYSIWYG hammer down, as I suspected. Which is totally their right, and I'd have no option but to respect the ruling, and pack up, and go home.
It's just much, MUCH easier, in every regard, to just stay home, save my $75, continue to proxy my boyz wargear, and play friendly games.

The reason I'm still discussing this is because I really don't want folks who have no experience of tournaments to draw the wrong conclusions through misunderstandings, as you're doing. The reason not to bring a non-WYSIWYG army isn't fear of being DQ'd. The real reason is because you don't want to be rude and impose on your opponents. Because you have too much pride as a modeler and a gamer, and you respect your army and your opponents too much to do that.

And these same reasons really should apply to friendly games, too. While most of us are more than happy to be understanding about playing with a friend (or even a stranger) who is working on his army over time, and doesn't have the time or inclination to do a major modeling revamp like this all at once, that understanding ideally shouldn't be used as an excuse to just never do the modeling. If you've always fielded them as Shootas, it kind of mystifies me why you haven't been working on them over time and getting them converted over to be modeled properly. The only reason I can think of is that everyone you play with either has been reluctant to push the point and ask you to, or just genuinely doesn't care (perhaps a mix of the two). So you haven't had reason or motivation to do the work and get the models WYSIWYG. I can understand that; veteran procrastinator that I am. I'm the kind of guy who puts off working on my stuff, then rushes to do a ton of painting and modeling work in the week or two prior to a big event, because I am lazy and do put off the work, but I refuse to field non-WYSIWYG or unpainted stuff, so I push myself hard and do the work fast before the event.

If I have been pushy about it, please take it as a friendly attempt from one player to another to share my experience and knowledge of the tournament scene and the players in it, to try to help you enjoy it if and when you do choose to participate. In my experience you will find a LOT of guys who are nice and are reluctant or completely unwilling to raise the issue of WYSIWYG with you, but you will find very few if any folks who genuinely don't care about WYSIWYG at all. The nature of the work and time they've invested themselves into getting ready for a big event and making sure their stuff is properly modeled, makes it more likely that they'll be disappointed (if not annoyed) if they come up against an opponent who has chosen not to return the favor.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

frozenwastes wrote:

pretre wrote:Damned if you do, damned if you don't. People get bored with the same game. If they didn't mix things up, people would be complaining about how they face the same armies all the time and nothing ever changes.

They can mix things up with new releases. If shoota boys are awesome now and sluggas will slowly dwindle away, how is that better than them balancing the game, getting it right and you seeing an equal variety of both shootas and sluggas? If they stopped intentionally botching the balance and actually got it so everything was really worth its points, you'd see greater variety and more mixing things up, not less.

Maybe Shootas and Sluggas are fairly well balanced, and people on the internet over-dramatize and exaggerate the difference? Maybe one genuinely is a bit better than the other at any given time depending on whether the current core rules put more emphasis on shooting or on assault, and what particular books are prevalent in a particular local scene or tournament environment, and that's something which fluctuates a bit literally every time a new codex comes out?

frozenwastes wrote:GW's core customer base are what Jervis called "craft hobbyists" who don't play their rules. I'm one such individual. And I can see I've made the right decision as I have never felt the need to replace up to 120 models in my army like the OP because the rules suddenly change and make a different equipment load out way, way better.

Since you don't play their rules, how can you feel comfortable expressing such definitive opinions about them?

Mannahnin, I really appreciate your response. It's thoughtful, and it does shed a lot of light on the subject. You are right, I have been assuming a lot of things about tourney goers. Some of that has been reinforced by the responses I have been getting in thread, but it doesn't mean it's true.

I really never expected anyone to put up with my lazy modeling. I also never expected anyone to accept me breaking the rules. I was really just wondering what the options were. Once I had a solid response of "Proxying sluggas for shootas is not generally a good idea, so you shouldn't do it." I was happy to accept it and just drop the whole idea. The crap hit the fan afterwards, and in my opinion really has nothing to do with my original question or final decision.

I have no plans to go play at a tourney now, nor do I plan on remodeling my boyz because I have tried it, and AoBR boyz just look terrible when converted.

I have the impression that my friends don't mind my proxying because they are the type to tell me whatever is on their minds, and because they also proxy a lot of stuff in their armies.

This is the last time I'll be posting here, because I think it's gone from my original topic to being more of a general topic on the two camps of WYSIWYG people. And that has very little to do with me anymore. I've also started answering people who actually have no idea what my original question was, and are getting angry and mean when they have no idea what I was actually asking.

Thanks all one last time for all the input. I've made my decision. I wont be playing in the tourney because I don't want to impose. I wont be converting my sluggas because they just look bad when you do it. I wont be purchasing another 120 shoota boyz because it's too expensive and time consuming.

I really never expected anyone to put up with my lazy modeling. I also never expected anyone to accept me breaking the rules. I was really just wondering what the options were. Once I had a solid response of "Proxying sluggas for shootas is not generally a good idea, so you shouldn't do it." I was happy to accept it and just drop the whole idea. The crap hit the fan afterwards, and in my opinion really has nothing to do with my original question or final decision.

Once again, I affirm my respect for you and your honest self-evaluation and weighing of priorities, and your choice not to impose on others.

I do hope at some point you do get a chance to try a tournament with an army you ARE comfortable and confident fielding. As I may have (over) communicated, I really enjoy them and I find that a lot of casual players really enjoy them to, for all the reasons I've belabored.

Alkasyn wrote:Over-WYSIWYG (i.e shootas on the backs of the orks) is rarely frowned at and should be perfectly fine.

This, but even more so, what Mann said. People post about this but it would be Very unlikely for you to be DQ'ed based on wysiwyg. What you do should be based on coolness and courtesy (making it clear what it is). But it's highly likely, even if you did nothing, you could play most tournies fine.

Imo, gluing those shootas on the back is a great middle ground, and would be acceptable to the vast majority of "real" opponents. Even those posting vociferously here would likely say nothing in person, although it is good to do them (and yourself!) the courtesy of having the right gun visible. Hence, backstraps, real life problem solved! Despite what folks on the internet may or may not say.

matphat wrote:

Target wrote: Iget it, you want shoota boyz because you feel they're currently better. But tough crap. Maybe the solution is just for you to run your sluggas, as sluggas, and play by the rules like everyone else.

Actually, I've always run my AoBR slugga boyz as shootas in friendly the games I've played. But you would know that if you had been reading the thread.
I also don't play for competitive edge (I play Orks), nor have I ever been to a competitive event (hence this issue just coming up), so, your argument that I'm trying to squeeze out additional advantage is pointless and seems more intended to insult me than offer anything constructive.
I started this thread to try and find a consensus on what people think of the challenge I was facing, and what my options are, not to get reamed by people like you.
You might even have a opinion worthy of considering, but I'll never know, because your response is obviously meant as inflammatory, and an attack, and that forces me to dismiss everything you say.
Welcome to ignore.

What you see as inflammatory, I see as honest. You seem to expect everyone to go out of their way to coddle you with their responses, I don't feel that is necessary. You're an adult presumably, act like one. You've stated repeatedly how you want to use shootas because they're better - you are trying to squeeze out an additional advantage.

Sadly, I personally feel my post was more constructive than 99% of what was on here, if your other post on this same topic I responded all sweetly with a bunch of possible solutions for you, and your response was there and has been here "I'm glad im not playing with those tournament players because I like friendly games" implying that tournament players aren't friendly, and aren't interested in friendly games, where the reality is that you want to be given special treatment, and are mad that everyone didn't jump to do so. Sometimes, the hard truth is what you need to hear, because take a step back and look at your situation. You have a perfectly, 100% serviceable ork army you could go and PLAY in a gaming event with a bunch of peers, but because they won't let you break the rules in order to use what you feel are more powerful models (shootas) you have decided to not go PLAY at all with your friends/peers. Opting out of a fun social activity which would probably be a very good time and a weekend you'd remember because you can't have your way on some silly issue like "I want to run shootas but don't own shootas"? Bizarre.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

helium42 wrote:

Target wrote:
My .02, because at the end of the day, even in a tournament setting - this is a game we all play for fun, you shouldn't feel so pressed to have to go out and purchase/paint 120 new shootas just because a few obsessive-compulsive people feel that it the only way to play the game.

Fixed that for you.

While I like how you commonly deride others peoples arguments and result to name calling (obsessive-compulsive people) through that old internet mechanism of "fixed that for you", you should try to contribute something meaningful to the discussion. The OP is signing (or was going to) sign up for an event with a rules packet that stated he MUST be wysiwyg, with an intentionally non-wysiwyg army, to gain an advantage he didn't feel he should have to work for (by painting/building shootas, rather, just by proxying).

And esp, changing a statement I've begun with "My. 02" would imply it's my opinion, you can't really fix that, just disagree with it.

The gaming event would have been fun regardless of whether the OP was using 120 sluggas, or 120 shootas, is my point, why miss out on a fun opportunity?

Target wrote:The gaming event would have been fun regardless of whether the OP was using 120 sluggas, or 120 shootas, is my point, why miss out on a fun opportunity?

Because, as he's stated numerous times, he likes playing shoota orks and has always run them as shootas.

Personally, I think you're being a little too black and white. A lot of people gave better solutions of ways to convert them / etc, rather than "tough crap" and "play by the rules like everyone else". Imo, those comments are not helpful, and there's no way you could have considered them constructive when you typed them.

Regardless of what the packet says, any regular tourney goer knows they've seen worse than this on the table in a tourney, and he could've attended just fine. But that's not the point, there are myriad compromise ways he could make his sluggas better represent shootas (gluing the shoota on the back, cutting off the slugga barrel and replacing it with a shoota one). Imo, "tough crap" "play by the rules like everyone else" is the least constructive comment and solution to this, and does nothing to lessen the OP's (imo unfounded) impression of tournies / tourney players.

People, from what I've seen, don't talk like that in-person nearly as quickly as on the internet. If you just put that slugga on them SOMEWHERE, most folks are going to be Totally fine playing against this army.

It is Not a black and white issue. With a very small amount of effort, he could get this army ready for a tourney, and imo that's the path that he should take if he ever changes his mind...

RiTides wrote:

Target wrote:The gaming event would have been fun regardless of whether the OP was using 120 sluggas, or 120 shootas, is my point, why miss out on a fun opportunity?

Because, as he's stated numerous times, he likes playing shoota orks and has always run them as shootas.

Personally, I think you're being a little too black and white. A lot of people gave better solutions of ways to convert them / etc, rather than "tough crap" and "play by the rules like everyone else". Imo, those comments are not helpful, and there's no way you could have considered them constructive when you typed them.

Regardless of what the packet says, any regular tourney goer knows they've seen worse than this on the table in a tourney, and he could've attended just fine. But that's not the point, there are myriad compromise ways he could make his sluggas better represent shootas (gluing the shoota on the back, cutting off the slugga barrel and replacing it with a shoota one). Imo, "tough crap" "play by the rules like everyone else" is the least constructive comment and solution to this, and does nothing to lessen the OP's (imo unfounded) impression of tournies / tourney players.

People, from what I've seen, don't talk like that in-person nearly as quickly as on the internet. If you just put that slugga on them SOMEWHERE, most folks are going to be Totally fine playing against this army.

It is Not a black and white issue. With a very small amount of effort, he could get this army ready for a tourney, and imo that's the path that he should take if he ever changes his mind...

Yes, and in his previous couple pages on this in the feast of blades thread - I was one of those people who gave converting/etc. advice and suggestions on other ways he could go about this. But he has consistently maintained a position of:

I won't:
-Buy shootas (unless somehands me a bag of them)
-Convert shootas
-Cut up my original models

IE - It is black and white, he isn't willing to change his current models - but he wants everyone to take them as something else. I talk almost exactly like this in person, and am proud to. I'll be as helpful and coddling as can be if it seems that any of it may be making it through to the person, but if at the end of it it's clear they aren't willing to accept any of those, my answer is the same as it is here - tough crap, just deal with it then. This is a game, there's no point in big internet threads and stressing over whether you can break the rules when you have a perfectly acceptable solution - not breaking the rules,. You'll notice at no point was I against sluggas on the back or converting shootas, I'm against his position of not changing anything, but still wanting them to be shootas.

And as a tourney goer, I'd prefer not to use the reasoning of "well I've seen worse" as a justification. And remember, he's talking about a GT - not just a shop tourney.

The main thing is he will be seen as someone who either was totally unprepared for a tourney or someone who explicitly showed up to a tourney with the intention to not follow the rules.

Someone who shows up to a wysiwyg tourney with proxies is like people who didn't bring printed lists and give you chicken scratch on a napkin or didn't bring their codex or dice or templates. Same goes for people who show up with unpainted models at a tourney that requires painting.

Being a social event, when 200+ people managed to follow the rules and show up with everything required, showing up knowing you are not following the rules and feeling entitled to exceptions will isolate you. At these events you often meet new people, exchange emails or blogs, keep in touch and maybe hang out. If you show up and my first experience with you is "here is why I feel I didn't need to follow the rules everyone else is" then after the game, I have 200 other people I would rather interact with. More than once have I heard about "watch out for this guy using proxies" or "that guy had an unpainted greater daemon" and the response is " how lame, I hope I don't have to play him."

Can you show up and force your rule exception on the event? Maybe you wont be DQ, but people will see you as rude regardless of the rest of your actions and you may find a highly social event less social for you because of it.

Target wrote:Yes, and in his previous couple pages on this in the feast of blades thread - I was one of those people who gave converting/etc. advice and suggestions on other ways he could go about this. But he has consistently maintained a position of:

I won't:
-Buy shootas (unless somehands me a bag of them)
-Convert shootas
-Cut up my original models

IE - It is black and white, he isn't willing to change his current models

The underlined part isn't true... see here:

matphat wrote:

RiTides wrote:matphat- A number of us have suggested slinging sluggas on their backs. Have you considered this? Wouldn't require taking a knife to your painted models.

I actually have about 90 of the old shootas that came separate from the boyz arms for just such a project, but I've been told repeatedly that this is considered "over modeling" and even more confusing than just proxying.

I can see him not wanting to cut up his models. Imo, gluing the shootas on the back IS the middle ground. You guys keep ignoring that possibility, hence my saying you are making it a black and white issue when it is not and, imo, taking a bit of the internet tough guy stand.

It's fine if you talk that way in person, but really I doubt it... not with someone you don't know. I believe I've seen you at a few events (I'm also in MD) and you seem like a good guy / player. But no one goes up to someone they don't know, and after the end of a conversation, says "Tough crap, you'll have to play by the rules like everyone else" about their well painted models. Or, at least, I have yet to see it.

The point remains that:

1) He probably COULD go to the event as-is, and probably have no one say anything to him about it, although it would NOT be courteous to do so with no converting, and I am not advocating it.
2) If he puts shootas on them SOMEWHERE... he'll have his models better represented than a decent percentage of the armies seen at tournies, and would be extremely likely to face 0 problems at all in using them.

That's my point... there IS a grey area. At least now we've gotten the conversation to the point where, obviously, he would not be DQ'ed. On the internet, it sounds like there is a WYSIWYG police officer walking the aisles of tournaments. It's just not the case. The reason, even though I go out of my way to use alternate models, I convert every single weapon with the actual GW one is simple: I want to be courteous to my opponent, and have it be clear what everything is armed with. NOT because I couldn't go and use it in a tournament otherwise, because in all likelihood, I could.

As Mann eloquently pointed out, the reasons to represent the models correctly are not that he would not be allowed to play in a tournament. In my own words, I think it is for coolness (they're shootas! so they need a shoota on them somewhere, even if slung on the back) and for courtesy (so your opponent knows what they're armed with).

As another poster pointed out, and I quoted above but has been passed over by you guys, over-modelling is rarely frowned upon and, in a real, live tournament, he would seriously be fine using them as shootas if he were to ADD the shoota to them, thus avoiding him cutting his painted models up, and it's a solution he seemed open to.

Sorry for going on at length a bit, but it bothers me the disconnect between what people say is OK on the internet, and what actual opponents are OK with facing in games. Again, Target I know you Definitely know what the heck you're talking about... but are you telling me that you, personally, would have a problem with his gluing shootas on their backs and you playing against them in a tournament?

RiTides wrote:

Target wrote:Yes, and in his previous couple pages on this in the feast of blades thread - I was one of those people who gave converting/etc. advice and suggestions on other ways he could go about this. But he has consistently maintained a position of:

I won't:
-Buy shootas (unless somehands me a bag of them)
-Convert shootas
-Cut up my original models

IE - It is black and white, he isn't willing to change his current models

The underlined part isn't true... see here:

I personally don't feel gluing another gun to the back of a model is converting a shoota, however I'll acknowledge I'd be more likely to put up with sluggas = shootas if he put some effort into it by doing something of that sort. If I glue a bolter to the back of my Grey Knight, can I play him as a blood angel, dark angel, etc., at a tournament?

RiTides wrote:

matphat wrote:

RiTides wrote:matphat- A number of us have suggested slinging sluggas on their backs. Have you considered this? Wouldn't require taking a knife to your painted models.

I actually have about 90 of the old shootas that came separate from the boyz arms for just such a project, but I've been told repeatedly that this is considered "over modeling" and even more confusing than just proxying.

I can see him not wanting to cut up his models. Imo, gluing the shootas on the back IS the middle ground. You guys keep ignoring that possibility, hence my saying you are making it a black and white issue when it is not and, imo, taking a bit of the internet tough guy stand.

RiTides wrote:
It's fine if you talk that way in person, but really I doubt it... not with someone you don't know. I believe I've seen you at a few events (I'm also in MD) and you seem like a good guy / player. But no one goes up to someone they don't know, and after the end of a conversation, says "Tough crap, you'll have to play by the rules like everyone else" about their well painted models. Or, at least, I have yet to see it.

Yup, we've interacted in person and had a good time, I think I may have been one of the guys who tried to protect one of your valk/vendettas from the leaky-roof incident at the Bowie-opening. I also wouldn't go up to someone I don't know and at the end of the conversation say it like that, however if there was someone at an event making a stink about how he couldn't break the rules, and after he'd been given suggestions on easy fixes refused - I would tell him he just has to live with it and play by the rules. Maybe that's all in the delivery of said sentence though.

RiTides wrote:
The point remains that:

1) He probably COULD go to the event as-is, and probably have no one say anything to him about it, although it would NOT be courteous to do so with no converting, and I am not advocating it.
2) If he puts shootas on them SOMEWHERE... he'll have his models better represented than a decent percentage of the armies seen at tournies, and would be extremely likely to face 0 problems at all in using them.

I would disagree with #2, he'll be less-likely to have problems, but from my experience, it still isn't that unheard of for people to have problems with that sort of thing at a big GT with a size similar to FoB

RiTides wrote:That's my point... there IS a grey area. At least now we've gotten the conversation to the point where, obviously, he would not be DQ'ed. On the internet, it sounds like there is a WYSIWYG police officer walking the aisles of tournaments. It's just not the case. The reason, even though I go out of my way to use alternate models, I convert every single weapon with the actual GW one is simple: I want to be courteous to my opponent, and have it be clear what everything is armed with. NOT because I couldn't go and use it in a tournament otherwise, because in all likelihood, I could.

Agreed, in all likelihood you could. But you shouldn't EXPECT to be able to or be surprised if you get told "those aren't legal". Because they aren't, and you went in knowing it. (In reference to using unconverted models, models with shootas on them still aren't "legal" but they're closer - if thats a thing? because shootas don't have sluggas/choppas, which his still would have).

RiTides wrote:As Mann eloquently pointed out, the reasons to represent the models correctly are not that he would not be allowed to play in a tournament. In my own words, I think it is for coolness (they're shootas! so they need a shoota on them somewhere, even if slung on the back) and for courtesy (so your opponent knows what they're armed with).

By the rules, he would not be allowed to play them at a tournament, and he knows it (he made this thread afterall). What you're saying is he could likely get away with it, and I'd agree. I've seen unpainted models at GT's, I've seen not fully assembled models at a GT, however, some of those times I saw those people get DQ'd, and some not. It just depended. As long as he's willing to roll the dice on that, go for it. But I don't think this is the example to strive for.

RiTides wrote:
As another poster pointed out, and I quoted above but has been passed over by you guys, over-modelling is rarely frowned upon and, in a real, live tournament, he would seriously be fine using them as shootas if he were to ADD the shoota to them, thus avoiding him cutting his painted models up, and it's a solution he seemed open to.

Agreed, he would probably be fine breaking the rules as such, but he would still be breaking the rules, and if he did get called out on it, he'd have to live with that. Is it likely? Heck no, but could it happen? Yup. And it wouldn't be a "jerk" opponent to blame as this thread keeps hinting at (which bugs me fwiw), it'd just be someone who enjoys the game differently and wanted to see shootas as shootas, and felt you were being rude by trying to circumvent the rules and/or slide by with something you knew was incorrect. IMO, he didn't seem open to that solution - he only seemed open to it (and this is drawing on him in the FOB thread a bit) - if there was an official call saying what he was doing was legal by the TO/other. He quickly didn't want to put shootas on their back as soon as he realized that there would be a chance it still wouldn't be accepted.

RiTides wrote:
Sorry for going on at length a bit, but it bothers me the disconnect between what people say is OK on the internet, and what actual opponents are OK with facing in games. Again, Target I know you Definitely know what the heck you're talking about... but are you telling me that you, personally, would have a problem with his gluing shootas on their backs and you playing against them in a tournament?

Me personally? I'll say 100% honestly, that at a GT:

-> If he didn't convert anything: yes, I have a problem, and I'd tell him that respectfully (and I do mean respectfully) and ask a TO to make a ruling, if the TO said it was okay, I'd shrug and play with a smile on my face, their word is final, whether I like it or not.
-> If he glued shootas to their backs, but left on the sluggas/choppas: I'd likely not saying anything since he put in some effort to making his models wysiwyg, I wouldn't like it because I'd know he did it purely to circumvent the wysiwyg ruling and run his models in a more advantageous way, but I'd accept it. Mind you, this would put a bad taste in my mouth from the start of the game and while I'd still be friendly and cordial, our newfound relationship wouldn't be off to a good start.

As I said - Do you think I'd realistically be allowed to glue bolters to my GKs and then use them as any marine variant? With the ally system now, they can be in my army, is this okay? (From a tourney perspective, I can say that I'd 100% expect to not be allowed to do this).


In summary - I respect your opinion RITides and enjoy the discussion, none of that was meant to come off as rude if it did, apologies in advance. However I do realistically feel that although yes, he probably 95% of the time would have no issue running them at a tournament with a shoota on their back, it's still a poor way to enter into an event, esp. when there's no need to do so. It's not as if the edition change removed slugga boyz from the codex, and he now has models with no legal entry - he just has models he doesn't feel are as good/play how he would want them to anymore.

I suck at manipulating the quoting system, so I'll give it a shot but it may need an edit...

I appreciate the thorough response! Although, I am not the guy with the valk/vendettas but that sounds like a nice thing you did!

Just to respond to the last part:

Target wrote:-> If he glued shootas to their backs, but left on the sluggas/choppas: I'd likely not saying anything since he put in some effort to making his models wysiwyg, I wouldn't like it because I'd know he did it purely to circumvent the wysiwyg ruling and run his models in a more advantageous way, but I'd accept it. Mind you, this would put a bad taste in my mouth from the start of the game and while I'd still be friendly and cordial, our newfound relationship wouldn't be off to a good start.

The reason I don't feel this way, and don't like this view, is that it is assigning motive to him based on his models. To me, that's the same as saying "My opponent must be a WAAC player!" based on his taking a well optimized list, typical netlist, etc. I have found that one doesn't equal the other, of course, and neither should it for a case of over-modelling.

The explanation could be much simpler, and I think is: he doesn't want to cut up painted models, and has always played them as shootas- he's not starting to now in the new edition, he's just considering going to his first tournament, so it's only now just come up.

Target wrote:As I said - Do you think I'd realistically be allowed to glue bolters to my GKs and then use them as any marine variant? With the ally system now, they can be in my army, is this okay? (From a tourney perspective, I can say that I'd 100% expect to not be allowed to do this).

I would say that this is not the same situation at all. While you would have the right weapon shown, you would have the incorrect model/armor- unlike the situation with the boyz, which use the same model with different weapons.

Target wrote:In summary - I respect your opinion RITides and enjoy the discussion, none of that was meant to come off as rude if it did, apologies in advance. However I do realistically feel that although yes, he probably 95% of the time would have no issue running them at a tournament with a shoota on their back, it's still a poor way to enter into an event, esp. when there's no need to do so. It's not as if the edition change removed slugga boyz from the codex, and he now has models with no legal entry - he just has models he doesn't feel are as good/play how he would want them to anymore.

I also have enjoyed the discussion, it's nice to talk to people with lots of actual experience and, as we're getting to now, a more realistic take on things imo.

I will say this- I did not look at any of his posts from the FoB thread, so perhaps there is prior background that has effected the discussion but not me. I have only seen the posts in this thread, and the basic question of how to run 120 sluggas as shootas... and I thought gluing the guns on their backs would be a good solution.

I do think it's key to not necessarily assign motive to that (although it may be there, I don't know...) as there are less nefarious motives possible, such as just not wanting to cut the models he's already painted. I agree that changing the barrels would be the best solution, but also likely more work... and that could be the reason to glue them on their backs, instead.

RiTides wrote:I appreciate the thorough response! Although, I am not the guy with the valk/vendettas but that sounds like a nice thing you did!

Just to respond to the last part:

Target wrote:-> If he glued shootas to their backs, but left on the sluggas/choppas: I'd likely not saying anything since he put in some effort to making his models wysiwyg, I wouldn't like it because I'd know he did it purely to circumvent the wysiwyg ruling and run his models in a more advantageous way, but I'd accept it. Mind you, this would put a bad taste in my mouth from the start of the game and while I'd still be friendly and cordial, our newfound relationship wouldn't be off to a good start.

The reason I don't feel this way, and don't like this view, is that it is assigning motive to him based on his models. To me, that's the same as saying "My opponent must be a WAAC player!" based on his taking a well optimized list, typical netlist, etc. I have found that one doesn't equal the other, of course, and neither should it for a case of over-modelling.

The explanation could be much simpler, and I think is: he doesn't want to cut up painted models, and has always played them as shootas- he's not starting to now in the new edition, he's just considering going to his first tournament, so it's only now just come up.

Target wrote:As I said - Do you think I'd realistically be allowed to glue bolters to my GKs and then use them as any marine variant? With the ally system now, they can be in my army, is this okay? (From a tourney perspective, I can say that I'd 100% expect to not be allowed to do this).

I would say that this is not the same situation at all. While you would have the right weapon shown, you would have the incorrect model/armor- unlike the situation with the boyz, which use the same model with different weapons.

Target wrote:In summary - I respect your opinion RITides and enjoy the discussion, none of that was meant to come off as rude if it did, apologies in advance. However I do realistically feel that although yes, he probably 95% of the time would have no issue running them at a tournament with a shoota on their back, it's still a poor way to enter into an event, esp. when there's no need to do so. It's not as if the edition change removed slugga boyz from the codex, and he now has models with no legal entry - he just has models he doesn't feel are as good/play how he would want them to anymore.

I also have enjoyed the discussion, it's nice to talk to people with lots of actual experience and, as we're getting to now, a more realistic take on things imo.

I will say this- I did not look at any of his posts from the FoB thread, so perhaps there is prior background that has effected the discussion but not me. I have only seen the posts in this thread, and the basic question of how to run 120 sluggas as shootas... and I thought gluing the guns on their backs would be a good solution.

I do think it's key to not necessarily assign motive to that (although it may be there, I don't know...) as there are less nefarious motives possible, such as just not wanting to cut the models he's already painted. I agree that changing the barrels would be the best solution, but also likely more work... and that could be the reason to glue them on their backs, instead.

I'll agree it's key not to assign motive, and I'll apologize if I have - It truly seemed to me as if the reason he wanted shootas over sluggas is because they're better now. I was basing that on his response in this thread:

MatPhat wrote:Well, I can't really explain why in all that crazy metagame lingo that all the pro players can wrangle up, but I can say this.
Sacrificing a single CC attack per boy, to get two ranged attacks at 18" and one additional str than the slugga just makes sense.
The sense is that your boy is more flexible.

However, I'd also like to point out that there has been motive assigned to those people he feel are "bringing out the wyswyig hammer on him" - that motive being that they want to knock another player out of the event in a grab for the cash (prize). I probably shouldn't be drawing on the other thread as others won't have read it,but the ideas just sort of merged in my head and I've been responding as if they're one and the same. Here is an example from this thread:

matphat wrote:However, considering that the invitational is $75 and the big prize is a 1500pt army, I'm not inclined to put myself in the "line of fire" for people who might just see my slugga boyz as an opportunity to call WYSIWYG rules for a free win, and a chance to put a player out of the running. What would suck more than anything would be to go to the tourney, pay my fee, and then not get to play because of this issue. Maybe some day, in the future, if someone hands me a bag full of shoota boys, I'll consider it again.

-I think the bolter on the GK situation is actually the same - both have power armor, one may be stylized differently, but both are completely legal - except for the guns. I know I've seen a heck of a lot of bright red space wolves, and while I may not like it, it's totally legal - the models are wysiwyg. Following this train of thought - providing I make my silver fellas have a bolter in addition to their storm bolter, they're now just an overmodeled blood angel/dark angel/space wolf/etc.

I think part of what it boils down to is whether gluing guns to backs is really a "good" solution, or is a compromise which is still less than ideal, and will still leave some opponents disappointed.

As a somewhat lazy person and inveterate procrastinator, I completely sympathize with people who are staring at their army after a codex or edition change and realize they have a lot of work to do if they want to redo their army to make it the most competitive they can. I've got a dozen painted vehicles for my BA, and now my usual lists are using 1-3 of them, and I'm having to build paint up a bunch more dudes to replace them. Do I HAVE to retire the vehicles? Absolutely not; I could keep using them just fine and still have a good time. But if I choose to use different army composition, that's my choice and I have to do the work.

In real life, you're right, people give some slack with WYSIWYG, and gamers are nonconfrontational and unlikely to actually kick someone out of an event for it. No one wants to send the guy home on the day. However that doesn't make overmodeling or not being WYSIWYG a "good" solution. It makes it a tolerable one, which is still imposing on the patience and goodwill of one's fellow gamers.

If we have the opportunity before an event to encourage "best practices" in modeling and how to behave at an event, then it's in everyone's best interest to do so. No one's being forced to back up his models and drive home after getting a precious Saturday free. The situation that raised the question is that a gamer asked about an event which was two months away; plenty of time to get this done if they really want to.

RiTides wrote:I don't mind a re-balancing to freshen things up, Mann... but it seems to me that when GW "rebalances" they make common units non-competitive, and others must-haves.

One example that still bothers me are hive guard (the shooty elite option). Sooooooooooooooooooooo good rules-wise that you absolutely must take them. For a while, hormagaunts seemed almost non-viable... now I guess they are again, but who wanted to just keep a closet-full of hormagaunts around for when that day came?

I think they go beyond re-balancing... another example is DoA blood angel armies, which can no longer function as intended (must start on the board). You can still do a hybrid, starting some things on the board and some off, and as such they'd still be plenty competitive... but if someone was playing only that style list, I can see it bothering them that they can no longer field the army they'd intended. Also since that's not an old codex, so GW had to know the change was coming when they put it out...

I agree with this point. I play Imperial Guard, my primary army at 1000pts is 2 vets, 1 command squad, 3 Vendettas (upgrades across all of the units and so on). Sometimes I'd toss in an adviser or two to make my reserve rolls better and/or hurt my opponents. My army was an outflank army and I used the Vendettas as a) gunships and b) to get my veterans to key objectives or targets. With the way the game is now I cannot do that anymore and while I am glad there cannot be 100% in reserve armies anymore (unless they are drop pods or something similar) it does still suck for the more recent codeces that contain units/army list specifically designed to be in reserves. My biggest issue with this is that my list is now forced to change and adapt, ok fine, however not everyone has the monetary funds to simply re-build their list/army because the rules were poorly changed.

Mann/Target- Agreed with both of you guys. I actually think the OP's problem started where a lot of casual players first thinking of going to tournaments started, myself included- painting the "other side" with a large brush.

No one wants to "bring the wysiwyg hammer" down on anyone. I just want to see people put love into their models. Personally, putting a shoota on the backs of well painted models would do it for me, but I respect that that line's going to be different for everyone.

However, as someone who uses alternate models but takes pains to make them as clearly represented as possible, I guess these things hit a little close to home . Luckily, most of my modelling liberties cause disadvantages, but it bothers me when people try to hold others to the letter of the rule (instead of rule of cool) IF an effort has clearly been made, and things like base size, weapons, etc are correct and clear.

I think the key issue here is whether or not an effort would be made, and what that would entail... but having the right attitude (certainly Not that tourney players are out to get you, and also not to assume someone's trying to get by with the minimum because of modelling) goes a long way to making it a non-issue for all sides in this kind of thing.

If I were in this tight spot, I would keep the options opened, play by the rules, and find the best deal.

Step one: . . . . .Go on eBay or swap sites, and buy as meany ork arm shoota bits as you can find.

Step two: . . . . .Go out and get a Razor Saw, micro drill, paint, and other tools and supplies you will need.

Step Three:. . . .Prep your model bits, setup, and paints.

Step Four . . . . .Cut off as many arms as you have bits to replace. Or Cut off at the first top, or back wrists.

Step Five. . . . . . Cut Bits to match and apply to model.

Step Six. . . . . . . Covert pistols to rifles and cut blades to be knuckles.

Step Six . . . . . . . Paint, everything you changed.

With the left over arms you can drill a 2mm whole in them and buy some 2mm x 1mm magnets to glue in them. After the tournament you can do the same to the newly converted arms, and newly cut joints. When time comes to convert back (The New Codex is released) just click them back to Stompas.

This also occurst to me (just now, so that's why I'm so late on this post):

Orks can get away with just about anything based up on how their technology works.

All that matters to an Ork is the sound of the gun. The more Orks that think that a gun is awesome, loud, and killy, then the more true those thoughts will be.

The AoBR "Slugga Boyz" has a Chopopa and a Slugga (sorry for redundancy). A "Shoota Boyz" can have a Shoota and a Choppa, as the Choppa does not effect the boy in anyway when with the Shoota (it's just a CCW).

So, could your Orks have devised compact shootas that are especially noisy, despite such tiny cases?

In theory, yes, but no true ork would want a dinky little shoota when he could a great big one instead

I can see a Big Mek enjoying a Noisy Cricket though

Ascalam wrote:I modded a unit by filing down the barrel end flush with the main body of the slugga, then gluing a cylinder to the end, and a smaller short cylinder near the bottom edge, to look somewhat like an old-schoool machine gun.

My cylinders were round eraser inserts for mechanical pencils, and refills for those eraser sticks that you can click down.

Cost very little, and easily available at officemax or similar.

They cut easily, glue easily (superglue) and take paint well.

I also use the long skinny eraser-stick refills for fuel lines, hydraulic tubes etc as they are flexible

It took me less than an hour to convert 30 sluggas to shootas, not counting the painting

I had the idea of buying a bunch of IG grenade launchers to make into a Rokkitboyz mob. But they were FAR to small to work. So I did a similar thing you did. I sliced the barrels off of the sluggas, and glued the grenade launchers to the slugga. Presto, shootas
But yea, it wouldnt be very hard to convert them into shootas with a quick trip to the stationary aisle or dollar store.

Also anyone that argues that shootas on the back isnt legal is a moron. Why would it be illegal? Because the boy isnt holding the weapon? What about all the minis made where a pistol or sword is holstered? Theres nothing illegal about it what so ever

KingCracker wrote:
Also anyone that argues that shootas on the back isnt legal is a moron. Why would it be illegal? Because the boy isnt holding the weapon? What about all the minis made where a pistol or sword is holstered? Theres nothing illegal about it what so ever

Because a Slugga, Choppa *AND* Shoota is an invalid weapon combination. It is no more valid then giving an ork a BS and a rokkit launcha. Hell, maybe I should give an ork a Dakka/rokkit/burna gun and call him a loota/burna/tankbusta all in one model too?

Now if you put the shootas on the back and the ork had *nothing* in his hands then you would be good to go. Orks are not space marines where it is assumed they have all 3 weapon options and it is base weapons so there is no need to model them... Shootas and Slugga/Choppas are mutually exclusive.