Three members of Russian punk band Pussy Riot have been jailed for two years after staging an anti-Vladimir Putin protest in a Moscow cathedral.
Judge Marina Syrova convicted the women of hooliganism motivated by religious hatred, saying they had "crudely undermined social order".
The women say the protest, in February, was directed at the Russian Orthodox Church leader's support for Mr Putin.
The US, UK and EU all criticised the sentences as "disproportionate".
Prosecutors had been seeking a three-year jail sentence for the women.
Judge Syrova said Maria Alyokhina, 24, Nadezhda Tolokonnikova, 22, and Yekaterina Samutsevich, 29, had offended the feelings of Orthodox believers and shown a "complete lack of respect".
"Tolokonnikova, Alyokhina and Samutsevich committed hooliganism - in other words, a grave violation of public order," she said.
Worldwide protests
Along with other members of their band, the women staged a flashmob-style performance of their song close to the altar in the cathedral on 21 February.
Continue reading the main story
In pictures: Pussy Riot support around the world
Their brief, obscenity-laced performance, which implored the Virgin Mary to "throw Putin out", enraged the Orthodox Church - its leader Patriarch Kirill said it amounted to blasphemy.
Mr Putin was elected for a third term as president two weeks later.
Alyokhina, Tolokonnikova and Samutsevich, watching Friday's proceedings from inside a glass-walled cage in the courtroom, smiled as the widely predicted conviction was announced.
The judge then took three hours to read the verdict, before handing down "two years deprivation of liberty in a penal colony" for each defendant.
"Considering the nature and degree of the danger posed by what was done, the defendants' correction is possible only through an actual punishment," she said.
One man in the courtroom shouted "shame" at the sentencing, and there were chants and whistles from the band's supporters outside.
Tolokonnikova's husband, Pyotr Verzilov, said: "Russia's image was quite scary even before [this]. What happened now is a clear sign that Russia is moving towards becoming more like China or North Korea."
Opposition leader Alexei Navalny added: "They are in jail because it is Putin's personal revenge. This verdict was written by Vladimir Putin."
The defendants' lawyer, Nikolai Polozov, said they would not appeal to President Putin for a pardon. However, there will be a legal appeal against the verdict.
Amnesty International said the ruling was a "bitter blow" for freedom of expression in Russia.
EU foreign affairs chief Catherine Ashton and the UK's Foreign Office criticised the severity of the sentences.
US state department spokeswoman Victoria Nuland said: "We urge Russian authorities to review this case and ensure that the right to freedom of expression is upheld."
On Thursday, Tolokonnikova had said she was "not bitter about being in jail". But, speaking through her lawyer on Twitter, she said: "Politically, I am furious."
"Our imprisonment serves as a clear and unambiguous sign that freedom is being taken away from the entire country," she said.
The women have been detained for the past five months.
Associated Press news agency said a number of protesters had been arrested outside the court before the sentencing was announced, including ex-world chess champion Garry Kasparov and opposition politician Sergei Udaltsov.
There were also pro-Pussy Riot protests in Paris, where demonstrators in Igor Stravinsky square chanted "Freedom", and in Kiev, where women protesters sawed down a wooden cross in a central square.
Other shows of support took place in Belgrade, Berlin, Sofia, London, Dublin and Barcelona.
The band have also had vocal support from artists including Paul McCartney and Madonna, and from politicians.
Critics of the band have also been demonstrating, saying the stunt was an insult to the Russian Orthodox Church.
Ex-world chess champion Garry Kasparov was among several people arrested outside the court in Moscow
One, Igor Kim, told the BBC News website from Moscow: "Shouting and screaming and spreading hate in Church is unacceptable and is contrary with Christian ethics."
Valentina Ivanova, a retired doctor, told Reuters: "What they did showed disrespect towards everything, and towards believers first of all."
One protester outside court in Moscow simply shouted: "Let Pussy Riot and all their supporters burn in hell."
Good Riddance I say, I agree with the sentencing here. Freedom of expression doesn't include violation of private property and they should have gone for a permit or something.
and I do like the "penal colony" sentence....off to Siberia!!!
It's great, isn't it? If I hadn't already read it on Yahoo and seen all of the interesting comments there I would be very excited for a thread full of wonder and decadence.
It's present-day Russia - sadly, this was to be expected. I'm actually somewhat surprised it's "only" two years, though I'm sure those two years will be hell.
So going by the reaction of the American posters I'm guessing this story hasn't got much coverage in the US. Wierd because the British media have been Pussy Rioting all summer.
Glorioski wrote:So going by the reaction of the American posters I'm guessing this story hasn't got much coverage in the US. Wierd because the British media have been Pussy Rioting all summer.
There was a blurb on CNN this afternoon, that's about it...
Glorioski wrote:So going by the reaction of the American posters I'm guessing this story hasn't got much coverage in the US. Wierd because the British media have been Pussy Rioting all summer.
To be honest, doing what PR did would probably get a lot of Americans wanting them to be jailed too. I here some people get peeved when groups of random women disrupt a church service with obscene lyrics about politics or some such
While I do find the sentence excessive, at the same time gotta say "that's what you get." What PR does is extremely disruptive and annoying.
I hear 'flash performance' and I just think of a bunch of dicks popping up in the middle of my business making a lot of noise and a scene disrupting whatever I'm trying to do.
I think standing up to Putin's government is honourable. The guy is effectively a dictator. So they get worldwide support by using some two thousand year old cult's haunt, more power to them.
The irony is that pseudo-dictator or not, Putin is very popular in Russia. People like him. And frankly, he's not that bad. Compared to some of Russia's Pre-Yeltsin leaders, Putin's a kitten. He seems content to let people be so long as they let him be in charge
But yeah. Two things you don't insult in Russia. The Orthodox Church, and Putin. Insulting one while inside the other, probably not gonna end well.
Didn't Rage Against the Machine do this in Wall Street? Or was that just staged?
Anyhow, punk kids will be punk kids? Putting them in prison for so long is a ridiculous sentence, who basically only serves at solidifying Russia's perception from the rest of the civilized world.
Would've been more fun if the churchgoers and the priests had joined the mush pit.
Hey hey, gotta love the French press ; ''A condemnation worty of the Inquisition''.
Kovnik Obama wrote:Hey hey, gotta love the French press ; ''A condemnation worty of the Inquisition''.
Pft, please. The Inquisition would have burned them at the stake and then talked about how they confessed their sins
Not really. At least, not unless you were in Spain, at a very specific point in time, or were Jewish. The Inquisition was a lot less torch-happy then history has put them to be.
Putin's government reminds us all that they are right up there with China when it comes to freedom of expression.
At least they weren't killed like some journalists.
I think the fact that a sizeable portion of the russian populace supported the Jailing to be more disgusting. Authoritarianism is bad, but public endorsement of corruption, repression, and propaganda strike me as uniquely Russian traits.
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GalacticDefender wrote:What the feth...
But yeah Russia's speech is actually pretty free compared to that of China, to say nothing of North Korea.
That depends on the subject matter of the speech. Portions of the russian government participate in targeted executions of journalists and rights advocates regularly. It's not as televised as when a famous chinese artist is put under house arrest or a blind man "brilliantly escapes", but it's more dangerous to be in the press in Russia than it is in China. You're more likely to die.
I assume it means no one would be shocked if he replaced all of his cabinet or whatever analogue they have in Russia...
Though it could mean kill instead of replace...
Though i don't know any reason he would, he chose them after all...
purplefood wrote:I assume it means no one would be shocked if he replaced all of his cabinet or whatever analogue they have in Russia...
Though it could mean kill instead of replace...
Though i don't know any reason he would, he chose them after all...
Yeah, that's what I thought it meant, it just makes absolutely no sense.
Seriously? Three women are doing hard time for what should be legitimate protest in a civilised society, and most of you say something along the lines of "good thing too".
Seriously? Three women are doing hard time for what should be legitimate protest in a civilised society, and most of you say something along the lines of "good thing too".
Well the music is not terribly good, and they seem pretty obnoxious overall. I am fine with protest, but this really does cross the line.
I did find another of their videos which seemed like legitimate protest, standing in front of the kremlin doing their thing, and they were not arrested for that.
I find the lack of amplifiers and drum kits remarkable and annoying, but impressed they have decided to do something more than languish in obscurity in seedy rock clubs/basements like the average "girl band."
Not a big fan of Russia and its policies both past and present, but I am not sure if 2 years is inappropriate for some young ladies that cause such a fuss in a church, set fire to things, disrupt businesses, and spray fire extinguishers and other smoke like devices at people on the street.
You people saying they deserved it or that 'it seems about right' are disgusting. Two years in a Russian jail is no holiday, and for what, making a lot of noise and fuss in a church? No one was actually hurt, it was a noisy demonstration. Maybe unwise, but not actually harmful. And frankly, there's a genuine point to be made about Russia's government. In the UK you would not get two years for that. You might get something, but it's a matter of civil disorder at most and you'd get weeks at most. Which is far more appropriate for three young women making a scene in a church, if they need imprisoning at all. This sentencing just shows again how corrupt Putin's Russia is. Putin's Russia is an evil regime and utterly opposed to the freedoms of any true democracy. Whatever people say about this being a PR disaster for Putin, he doesn't care. He's sitting on a load of oil and plenty of guns, all he wants to prove is that he controls what people are allowed to think out loud in his country.
Though I suppose they can consider themselves lucky they weren't simply murdered like some journalists. Which is entirely legal in Russia as a few years ago they passed laws that allow the extra judicial killing of dissidents both inside and outside their own country. And before anyone tries to draw any comparison, unlike the US dropping bombs on members of alqaeda, Russia used this to silence critics, particularly journalists, of Putin's regime. Or pretty much anyone they don't like.
Russia is a dangerous country to express opinions that the government don't agree with. In protests about the trial, so some of the public do care, they arrested various people including Garry Kasparov and allegedly beat him up. I'm sure that an old chess master was tearing the street up, he seems about the sort really.
Their government seems rife with ex KGB sorts (and probably those involved with the Russian mafia) who lust for the 'glory days' of the USSR when they had power, they frequently come across as desperate to maintain their standing as a world power, but it's unlikely they'll ever have the size and power of the Soviet Union again. That's why they're always threatening countries like Ukraine over their energy supplies to show them who has all the power, or the way they kicked Georgia in after the war in South Ossetia, seemingly just to prove who had all the military might.
I feel for these poor women. Even if the band name is terrible. Whatever happened to the right to protest? Does Putin really deserve another term in power?
The right to protest does not entitle people to do as they please and create disruption wherever they wish. A civilised society would have simply charged them with breach of the peace, and handed them a warning, or a fine. The jail sentence is not only highly disproportionate, but I'm very interested to know how the prosecution proved to satisfaction that the crime was motivated by sectarian prejudice, as has been reported, presumably in order to gain the harshest punishment possible .
Kovnik Obama wrote:Hey hey, gotta love the French press ; ''A condemnation worty of the Inquisition''.
Pft, please. The Inquisition would have burned them at the stake and then talked about how they confessed their sins
Not really. At least, not unless you were in Spain, at a very specific point in time, or were Jewish. The Inquisition was a lot less torch-happy then history has put them to be.
Gotta go an use the real world to spoil the fun don't ya
More seriously it's sad that this is an improvement overall with Russia's "free speech" issues. The band would have probably found themselves in the gulag or shot in the head long before they protested in a Russian Orthodox church in the Soviet Union. Overall this pretty pathetic, the protestors deserved punishment certainly, making a scene like that on private property is just begging for legal trouble but two years in prison? That's excessive for sure.
I gotta agree with Shuma, the general Russian reaction supporting the jailing is heinous.
Squigsquasher wrote: I feel for these poor women. Even if the band name is terrible. Whatever happened to the right to protest? Does Putin really deserve another term in power?
There are no rights but which those society grants. and in Russia protesting really isnt a right. and to be honest...I'd rather have Putin in power, He's more predictable, willing to work with the US(despite public denouncing of the US, thats just domestic posturing). He's also able to keep Russia in line and has given hope to the Russian people that their country wont fall apart. He's better than a weak ruler who could cause instability in Russia, instability in nuclear powers in not good.
For countries that have no history of democratic processes(?) a shift to a full/real democracy is not always the best solution.
Could it happen here? Yes, in a way.
Taking over a church would likely result in nothing, even though in Pussy Riots case the church itself was targeted for abuse, not just used as a stage.
However , try wondering what would happen if a bunch of inappropriately dressed people burst into a mosque or synagogue and sangs crude politicised songs attacking the relgions political status.
They would be in court on hate crime charges. And they would be lucky to get only two years.
Huffy wrote: There are no rights but which those society grants. and in Russia protesting really isnt a right. and to be honest...I'd rather have Putin in power, He's more predictable, willing to work with the US(despite public denouncing of the US, thats just domestic posturing). He's also able to keep Russia in line and has given hope to the Russian people that their country wont fall apart. He's better than a weak ruler who could cause instability in Russia, instability in nuclear powers in not good.
For countries that have no history of democratic processes(?) a shift to a full/real democracy is not always the best solution.
Are you serious? Have you even been paying attention to the shenanigans Putin gets up to? What, exactly, has Putin been willing to work with the U.S. on? Certainly not Syria.
I want to see if I have this straight. You are saying it's better for a dictator to be in charge that kills and jails any vocal opposition rather than continuing to transition to an open society? Instability in nuclear powers? Have you taken a look at Pakistan lately?
I am appalled at any Western citizen that thinks this was a legitimate sentence. How much time do you think they'd have gotten if the world hadn't taken notice?
KalashnikovMarine wrote:More seriously it's sad that this is an improvement overall with Russia's "free speech" issues. The band would have probably found themselves in the gulag or shot in the head long before they protested in a Russian Orthodox church in the Soviet Union.
Did you pull that out of a Cold War school book? As with most governments, it depends on the era (you wouldn't compare present day US to the McCarthy time either), and the Soviet Union was pretty open under Gorbachev's Glasnost. It has actually gotten worse again since those years. The worst thing is that, this time, the church is working with the system - which is why these girls protested where they did, I think.
newbis wrote:I want to see if I have this straight. You are saying it's better for a dictator to be in charge that kills and jails any vocal opposition rather than continuing to transition to an open society? Instability in nuclear powers? Have you taken a look at Pakistan lately?
That is an opinion pretty prominent with US foreign policies, it seems. And from a nation's point of view, it makes sense insofar that this nation would only care for what happens to its own citizens, and completely disregarding violations of human rights elsewhere. Whether this is moral or not is, of course, debatable. Usually this stance is only applied to dictators that have at least an okay relationship to the US, which is why I'm somewhat surprised as well.
They're very irritating, stupid obnoxious hippie feminist scum.
Obviously that doesn't mean they should be locked up. Putin's regime has been murdering journelists for a decade, so this really isn't terribly surprising.
Anyone remember david kelly? the Dude who didnt want the UK to go to war in Iraq? Who was then found murd... I mean had comited suicide?
Yeah the Russians are dicks for doing this, but so are the UK/US who also do this sort of thing .. hell every country on planet earth do aswell I bet, the big diference it the Russians dont care if we see it happen.
More seriously it's sad that this is an improvement overall with Russia's "free speech" issues. The band would have probably found themselves in the gulag or shot in the head long before they protested in a Russian Orthodox church in the Soviet Union. Overall this pretty pathetic, the protestors deserved punishment certainly, making a scene like that on private property is just begging for legal trouble but two years in prison? That's excessive for sure.
I gotta agree with Shuma, the general Russian reaction supporting the jailing is heinous.
The soviet union ended 21 years ago, in the years following its downfall russia become a much more free society. It has markedly regressed in the past 5 years as putin has consolidated his hold on the nation. A decade ago something like this wouldn't of been handled in broad daylight in front of the entire world. They've become brazen in their immunity.
Are you serious? Have you even been paying attention to the shenanigans Putin gets up to? What, exactly, has Putin been willing to work with the U.S. on? Certainly not Syria.
Its more a case of Putin being stable and predictable, than sympathetic.
I want to see if I have this straight. You are saying it's better for a dictator to be in charge that kills and jails any vocal opposition rather than continuing to transition to an open society?
Instability in nuclear powers? Have you taken a look at Pakistan lately?
Interestingly, Pakistan is a hybrid democracy, and significantly more open in terms of civil society than Russia. So I guess the question is: have you looked at Pakistan recently?
Granted, the two countries aren't really comparable due to hugely different social, ethnic, and political structures.
Lynata wrote:That is an opinion pretty prominent with US foreign policies, it seems.
Oh, its not just US foreign policy.
Lynata wrote:
Usually this stance is only applied to dictators that have at least an okay relationship to the US, which is why I'm somewhat surprised as well.
Putin has an okay relationship with the US. For the most part, US foreign policy only take umbrage to overtly hostile dictatorships.
KalashnikovMarine wrote:More seriously it's sad that this is an improvement overall with Russia's "free speech" issues. The band would have probably found themselves in the gulag or shot in the head long before they protested in a Russian Orthodox church in the Soviet Union.
Did you pull that out of a Cold War school book? As with most governments, it depends on the era (you wouldn't compare present day US to the McCarthy time either), and the Soviet Union was pretty open under Gorbachev's Glasnost. It has actually gotten worse again since those years. The worst thing is that, this time, the church is working with the system - which is why these girls protested where they did, I think.
I stress again "Overall". In general the USSR/Russia has been an excellent place to get silenced if you speak out. If you made a graph out of it this would be a recent low point but it's still a hell of a lot better then historic lows.
It already went there. This forum is nothing if not in the gutter whenever issues relating to women or protests movements arise. Hell, it's there most of the time in general, this community isn't particularly enlightened or rational.
Also, stop signing your posts. You have a signature section that you are making ample usage of, the signing is just annoying.
It already went there. This forum is nothing if not in the gutter whenever issues relating to women or protests movements arise. Hell, it's there most of the time in general, this community isn't particularly enlightened or rational.
Also, stop signing your posts. You have a signature section that you are making ample usage of, the signing is just annoying.
It already went there. This forum is nothing if not in the gutter whenever issues relating to women or protests movements arise. Hell, it's there most of the time in general, this community isn't particularly enlightened or rational.
.
The obvious answer is to eliminate off-topic altogether. Dakka is after all a wargaming forum.
The world wouldnt end if game geeks had to go to other more appropriate places to discuss what passes through this section...
It already went there. This forum is nothing if not in the gutter whenever issues relating to women or protests movements arise. Hell, it's there most of the time in general, this community isn't particularly enlightened or rational.
.
The obvious answer is to eliminate off-topic altogether. Dakka is after all a wargaming forum.
The world wouldnt end if game geeks had to go to other more appropriate places to discuss what passes through this section...
Off topic isn't what pulls this forum down. Have you even been to Dakka Discussions or YMDC? News and rumors is almost a mirror of any patch notes thread for any blizzard game.
It already went there. This forum is nothing if not in the gutter whenever issues relating to women or protests movements arise. Hell, it's there most of the time in general, this community isn't particularly enlightened or rational.
It already went there. This forum is nothing if not in the gutter whenever issues relating to women or protests movements arise. Hell, it's there most of the time in general, this community isn't particularly enlightened or rational.
And yet here you are.
Monster Rain
It is often hard to not rubberneck when you drive past a trainwreck, even a digital one...
Yeah, a dramatic difference. I agree. A difference in the thousands.
The CPJ lists Russia as "the third deadliest country in the world for journalists" since 1991, exceeded in the number of deaths only by Algeria (1993–1996) and post-invasion Iraq.
It almost makes you feel special for not living there.
Yeah, a dramatic difference. I agree. A difference in the thousands.
The CPJ lists Russia as "the third deadliest country in the world for journalists" since 1991, exceeded in the number of deaths only by Algeria (1993–1996) and post-invasion Iraq.
It almost makes you feel special for not living there.
Regardless it shows that the West is not squeamish about journalists meeting untimely ends. We just tend to not let it get out. The Russians could care less.
Yeah, a dramatic difference. I agree. A difference in the thousands.
The CPJ lists Russia as "the third deadliest country in the world for journalists" since 1991, exceeded in the number of deaths only by Algeria (1993–1996) and post-invasion Iraq.
It almost makes you feel special for not living there.
Regardless it shows that the West is not squeamish about journalists meeting untimely ends. We just tend to not let it get out. The Russians could care less.
I'd say that one shady case doesn't really prove a rule, nor does it show a particular trend.
Regardless it shows that the West is not squeamish about journalists meeting untimely ends. We just tend to not let it get out. The Russians could care less.
Not letting it get out would indicate squeamishness.
Regardless it shows that the West is not squeamish about journalists meeting untimely ends. We just tend to not let it get out. The Russians could care less.
Actually I don't think the Russians don't care even that much.
Also, when I clicked on this thread I really didn't expect the Spanish Inquisition.
I can't believe no-one noted this before I did - Monster Rain won this thread 2 pages back
Back OT, I haven't really been following this story too closely, but 2 years seems excessive for this. As has been said abover somewhere, over here you might get a month or 2 at most...
Look, if GG Allin showed up and pulled this off in a church down south he'd be lucky to get out alive. I know there are a lot of atheists out here, but a church is not public property. You may not believe in religion, but you should still respect it, or at least other peoples rights to worship freely.
As for PR, they were idiots. What did they think was going to happen. Show your cheeks and sometimes they will get smacked. Is 2 years excessive, to western standards yes, to Russian standards not really. IF they survive 2 years in a Russian prison (which is pretty tough, tuberculosis anyone?) they will be pretty famous, write books and get gigs. Mission accomplished!
As for Putin....I'll take him over Yeltsin any day. The average Russian is much better off and safer than they were in 98 with Drunki Drunkovich running the joint and giving the place away to the Mafia. Is there still corruption, of course! Show me a country that isn't corrupt? Russian justice a little iron fisted compared to western ideologies.......Shocking, just shocking!
Two years in a Russian jail for putting a half dozen people through the minor inconvenience of a 40 second dance routine... and there's people here saying that's okay and ignoring the very fething obvious fact that this was all about political censorship. Unbelievable, really.
LordofHats wrote: The irony is that pseudo-dictator or not, Putin is very popular in Russia. People like him. And frankly, he's not that bad. Compared to some of Russia's Pre-Yeltsin leaders, Putin's a kitten. He seems content to let people be so long as they let him be in charge
Well, compared to some of the earlier Russian leaders everyone on Earth other than Hitler is pretty decent. That doesn't really make Putin's oppression and outright theft of national assets acceptable in the slightest.
Two years in a Russian jail for putting a half dozen people through the minor inconvenience of a 40 second dance routine... and there's people here saying that's okay and ignoring the very fething obvious fact that this was all about political censorship. Unbelievable, really.
Frazzled wrote: I should care, but I heard their shtick on NPR, and then I didn't.
Surprise surprise.
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Andrew1975 wrote: Look, if GG Allin showed up and pulled this off in a church down south he'd be lucky to get out alive.
That's... Not true. It's not even close to true. That's not even close to being a mistake, you're just lying.
It always (never) surprises me just how awful of a community dakka can be when it comes to such unimportant matters as human rights and freedoms.
Do you know who GG Allin is? If he did his shtick in in church down south they would have lynched him. Sure there is a political aspect to what is going on, but PR was very stupid for putting themselves right in Putin's hands. There are legal places to protest and do this kind of thing in Russia. Doing it illegally, in a church no less is like asking Putin to lock you up. Protest all you want but when you expose your self to some real consequences why are people shocked that Putin would throw the hammer (and sickle) down? The guy is an oligarch!
What they did was stupid, juvenile and wrong! Understand that the price for such action is different around the world. There are plenty of countries where they would be killed for what they were doing in a holy site. I'm not saying it's right, but they really should have known better, I see it more as a couple of weeks for the action and a couple of years for just being stupid.
They are not a good political punk band, they are a stupid shock punk band, big difference. If they actually had a message it would be one thing, but mostly they just act like donkey caves and scream obscenities. I hate people who do things just for shock and then cry when they get caught. Waaaaaaaaa, welcome to the gulag and tuberculosis, not so smart now are they.
Seriously did they expect to get away with singing "Sh*t sh*t you holiness is Sh*t, Sh*t Sh*t your godliness is Sh*t" in a church in Russia all while taking on Putin too!
I pray to the temple of Joe Strummer, and as politically active as he was, he never would have done anything as stupid, disrespectful and dangerous as this.
Do you know who GG Allin is? If he did his shtick in in church down south they would have lynched him.
Nope. If you want to find me some nice examples of church patrons rising up and lynching people in modern times feel free. As it is this just is bull gak.
Sure there is a political aspect to what is going on, but PR was very stupid for putting themselves right in Putin's hands. There are legal places to protest and do this kind of thing in Russia.
I don't think you know very much about Russian protest law.
Doing it illegally, in a church no less is like asking Putin to lock you up. Protest all you want but when you expose your self to some real consequences why are people shocked that Putin would throw the hammer (and sickle) down? The guy is an oligarch!
Where did you see people being surprised? The outcry is in the fact that PR didn't actually commit a crime, hooliganism is ill defined and the entirety of both the trial and the sentence were based on religious blasphemy laws which aren't part of the Russian federations set of laws. I implore you to actually do even a fractional amount of research into this whole thing before tossing out an opinion.
What they did was stupid, juvenile and wrong!
And entirely precedented in Russia and entirely within their rights under Russian law. Divorce your own opinion on the moralism of this from your views of the sentencing or else you're going to consistently seem ill informed and juvenile.
Andrew1975 wrote:There are legal places to protest and do this kind of thing in Russia.
I'm not sure how familiar you are with the concept of sanctioned and unsanctioned protests and what the Russian government is allowing or banning in this regard, but I would like to point out that the laws are fairly strict (and have recently become even stricter with Putin signing off Federal Law 70631-6, "On Amendments to the Code of the Russian Federation on Administrative Violations") and some activists may feel the need to protest specifically because the current regime is cracking down on opposition and freedom more and more.
The protests of the White Rose in 1943 were "illegal" and somewhat built on shock value as well - would you say that what they did was stupid? I suppose the answer depends on whether or not you acknowledge that they were fully aware of the consequences, and simply were so convinced of their cause to disregard their own safety. And frankly, I think it's the same for Pussy Riot. Though I will not compare Pussy Riot to the White Rose, I think the latter still serves as an example on how young people may become inspired to do "stupid" things. Whether this conviction in itself is good or bad probably depends on one's own stance regarding the issues they were protesting about/against.
And I suppose the same could be said about a certain other group of vandals who used to throw crates of tea into the sea because they opposed taxation. Oh the irony.
Bottom line, Pussy Riot chose that place to protest specifically because they wanted to reach this audience, to make a stand against an organisation that is part of the apparatchik, and to disturb the false sense of serenity that they undoubtedly feel is lulling people into inactivity. I don't agree with how they did it (very amateurish, possibly doing more harm than good), but I certainly see why.
Do you know who GG Allin is? If he did his shtick in in church down south they would have lynched him.
Nope. If you want to find me some nice examples of church patrons rising up and lynching people in modern times feel free. As it is this just is bull gak.
Sure there is a political aspect to what is going on, but PR was very stupid for putting themselves right in Putin's hands. There are legal places to protest and do this kind of thing in Russia.
I don't think you know very much about Russian protest law.
Doing it illegally, in a church no less is like asking Putin to lock you up. Protest all you want but when you expose your self to some real consequences why are people shocked that Putin would throw the hammer (and sickle) down? The guy is an oligarch!
Where did you see people being surprised? The outcry is in the fact that PR didn't actually commit a crime, hooliganism is ill defined and the entirety of both the trial and the sentence were based on religious blasphemy laws which aren't part of the Russian federations set of laws. I implore you to actually do even a fractional amount of research into this whole thing before tossing out an opinion.
What they did was stupid, juvenile and wrong!
And entirely precedented in Russia and entirely within their rights under Russian law. Divorce your own opinion on the moralism of this from your views of the sentencing or else you're going to consistently seem ill informed and juvenile.
Ill show you someone getting lynched in the south when you show me someone trying to pull this kind of stunt there. This is not PRs first gig or guerrilla show, usually they do it in a public place and get away just fine. This time they decided to spew obscenities in a church. It's not my morality that is in question, many Russians take the church very seriously, its not something to be messed with over there.
As for me not knowing anything about Russia well I hate to tell you but I've lived there. You would have to be a rank A idiot to do what they did and think you could get away with it. Many Russian laws are ill defined for this exact purpose and if you knew anything you would know that. Enforcement is almost always situational. Is this a good thing, of course not, but you have to be aware of your surroundings when you act. Sorry, they were just very stupid and put themselves right in Putins pocket.
Russians protest all the time and don't get thrown in jail for two years, in general the police don't give a gak. Seriously unless the cops feel that they can shake you down they generally don't do anything. But you go ahead and pull a stunt like this and you are just asking for it. They could have protested outside! PR wanted media attention to make a name for themselves and to sell more records, well they got the attention, just not what they wanted.
Andrew1975 wrote:There are legal places to protest and do this kind of thing in Russia.
I'm not sure how familiar you are with the concept of sanctioned and unsanctioned protests and what the Russian government is allowing or banning in this regard, but I would like to point out that the laws are fairly strict (and have recently become even stricter with Putin signing off Federal Law 70631-6, "On Amendments to the Code of the Russian Federation on Administrative Violations") and some activists may feel the need to protest specifically because the current regime is cracking down on opposition and freedom more and more.
The protests of the White Rose in 1943 were "illegal" and somewhat built on shock value as well - would you say that what they did was stupid? I suppose the answer depends on whether or not you acknowledge that they were fully aware of the consequences, and simply were so convinced of their cause to disregard their own safety. And frankly, I think it's the same for Pussy Riot. Though I will not compare Pussy Riot to the White Rose, I think the latter still serves as an example on how young people may become inspired to do "stupid" things. Whether this conviction in itself is good or bad probably depends on one's own stance regarding the issues they were protesting about/against.
And I suppose the same could be said about a certain other group of vandals who used to throw crates of tea into the sea because they opposed taxation. Oh the irony.
Bottom line, Pussy Riot chose that place to protest specifically because they wanted to reach this audience, to make a stand against an organisation that is part of the apparatchik, and to disturb the false sense of serenity that they undoubtedly feel is lulling people into inactivity. I don't agree with how they did it (very amateurish, possibly doing more harm than good), but I certainly see why.
You are not actually comparing PR to white rose are you?
Ill show you someone getting lynched in the south when you show me someone trying to pull this kind of stunt there. This is not PRs first gig or guerrilla show, usually they do it in a public place and get away just fine. This time they decided to spew obscenities in a church. It's not my morality that is in question, many Russians take the church very seriously, its not something to be messed with over there.
Translation: "I made it up"
As for me not knowing anything about Russia well I hate to tell you but I've lived there. You would have to be a rank A idiot to do what they did and think you could get away with it. Many Russian laws are ill defined for this exact purpose and if you knew anything you would know that. Enforcement is almost always situational. Is this a good thing, of course not, but you have to be aware of your surroundings when you act. Sorry, they were just very stupid and put themselves right in Putins pocket.
Ahh, you refuse to find any examples of the "lynch pin" of your argument aaaaaand you suddenly used to live in Russia. How convenient.
Russians protest all the time and don't get thrown in jail for two years, in general the police don't give a gak. Seriously unless the cops feel that they can shake you down they generally don't do anything. But you go ahead and pull a stunt like this and you are just asking for it. They could have protested outside! PR wanted media attention to make a name for themselves and to sell more records, well they got the attention, just not what they wanted.
Translation: "Why didn't they just do a protest that no one would see or care about?"
Man, this is a great discussion we're having here!
Andrew1975 wrote:You are not actually comparing PR to white rose are you?
Did you read the entirety of my post?
->
Lynata wrote:Though I will not compare Pussy Riot to the White Rose, I think the latter still serves as an example on how young people may become inspired to do "stupid" things. Whether this conviction in itself is good or bad probably depends on one's own stance regarding the issues they were protesting about/against.
Ill show you someone getting lynched in the south when you show me someone trying to pull this kind of stunt there. This is not PRs first gig or guerrilla show, usually they do it in a public place and get away just fine. This time they decided to spew obscenities in a church. It's not my morality that is in question, many Russians take the church very seriously, its not something to be messed with over there.
Translation: "I made it up"
As for me not knowing anything about Russia well I hate to tell you but I've lived there. You would have to be a rank A idiot to do what they did and think you could get away with it. Many Russian laws are ill defined for this exact purpose and if you knew anything you would know that. Enforcement is almost always situational. Is this a good thing, of course not, but you have to be aware of your surroundings when you act. Sorry, they were just very stupid and put themselves right in Putins pocket.
Ahh, you refuse to find any examples of the "lynch pin" of your argument aaaaaand you suddenly used to live in Russia. How convenient.
Russians protest all the time and don't get thrown in jail for two years, in general the police don't give a gak. Seriously unless the cops feel that they can shake you down they generally don't do anything. But you go ahead and pull a stunt like this and you are just asking for it. They could have protested outside! PR wanted media attention to make a name for themselves and to sell more records, well they got the attention, just not what they wanted.
Translation: "Why didn't they just do a protest that no one would see or care about?"
Man, this is a great discussion we're having here!
Made what up? That people down south take religion seriously or they have been known to lynch people in the past? Look I currently live in the south and because I'm a yankee that doesn't drive a truck, they look at me funny. 1.They don't really put up with much weirdness here and 2. they take church pretty seriously and 3. there is a history of people taking the law into their own hands, hence why people that would pull these kind of stunts pull them in more accepting and liberal places. None of that is made up.
Yes it is convenient that I lived in both Volgograd and Moscow for 6 month on exchange programs and probably have a much better grasp of Russian culture than you. I studied Russian just to vex people like you.
Personally I think the charge is excessive, but its completely expected and should have been.
Why didn't they just do a another protest that was legal and brought attention to their cause instead of derision and disgust. Oh yeah, they tried that plenty of times in the past, but nobody cared. Look at the numbers, most Russians don't have a problem with the sentence. If you can not fundamentally grasp that a group of people that had to hide and were persecuted for their religion for generations might be upset when someone gaks on it, well then you need to study history a little more.
People in Russia don't give a gak about PR. Most don't care about the message and see them as idiots that got what they deserve.
Putin is very popular in Russia, he has given the average people hope that Russia has a future. Things were so bad after the fall and Yeltsin was a drunk joke who was giving the country away to the Mafia. People were literally living hand to mouth. Russians actually love Putin's hard stands and rule compared to the lawlessness that followed the fall, you might say they were used to it. Is it a perfect world? no, but Russians feel more secure with that type of government, they want the stability that comes with a hard nosed leader.
PR had done many of these acts in completely open and public areas even performing in red square which is always full of police. They took it to far this time by doing their performance and screaming obscenities inside a church on an alter for pure shock value and attention.....oh yeah without permission. If anything this is the best thing that could have happened to PR! They are now worldwide celebrities not for having any kind of talent, but for pure shock, they are a bunch of no talent celebrity hacks that rank right up there with the Hiltons and Kardashions......just what Russia needs.
Ill tell you guys something funny I noticed.. After reading this story on the BBC, i googled Pussy Riot out of curioisty, and noticed that (try it yourself on google images) 90% of the links are pictures of the relatively attractive one.
The two ugly fethers are hardly seen, and I didn't see a single solo shot of one of them.
Made what up? That people down south take religion seriously or they have been known to lynch people in the past? Look I currently live in the south and because I'm a yankee that doesn't drive a truck, they look at me funny. 1.They don't really put up with much weirdness here and 2. they take church pretty seriously and 3. there is a history of people taking the law into their own hands, hence why people that would pull these kind of stunts pull them in more accepting and liberal places. None of that is made up.
You made up the lynching of vandals or unwelcome performance artists. Straight up it's just wrong and untrue. I don't care how funny they look at you, until you and your bandmates are strung up under a tree that's just you're own ridiculous posturing.
Yes it is convenient that I lived in both Volgograd and Moscow for 6 month on exchange programs and probably have a much better grasp of Russian culture than you. I studied Russian just to vex people like you.
I spend enough time on this forum telling people that have lived in America their entire lives that they're wrong and don't know what they're talking about concerning american subjects. You spending a holiday in Russia doesn't suddenly make you an expert on matters that you can't seemingly discuss without ludicrous hyperbole and continuous personal intonations (also plainly wrong facts).
Personally I think the charge is excessive, but its completely expected and should have been.
If it was completely expected than why is it unprecedented in their court and media systems?
Why didn't they just do a another protest that was legal and brought attention to their cause instead of derision and disgust.
Kind of like how they arrested Gary Kasparov last week for legally protesting their trial? Who knows why they didn't do that. That's their purview.
Oh yeah, they tried that plenty of times in the past, but nobody cared. Look at the numbers, most Russians don't have a problem with the sentence. If you can not fundamentally grasp that a group of people that had to hide and were persecuted for their religion for generations might be upset when someone gaks on it, well then you need to study history a little more.
Actually, the numbers point to a third of Russians being ok with the sentencing. That's still outrageously high, but it's certainly not "the majority".
Putin is very popular in Russia, he has given the average people hope that Russia has a future. Things were so bad after the fall and Yeltsin was a drunk joke who was giving the country away to the Mafia. People were literally living hand to mouth. Russians actually love Putin's hard stands and rule compared to the lawlessness that followed the fall, you might say they were used to it. Is it a perfect world? no, but Russians feel more secure with that type of government, they want the stability that comes with a hard nosed leader.
Putin has polled in actually impartial favorable/unfavorable surveys consistently under 50%. He used to hover around the 40's but after the last rigged election that has dropped.
PR had done many of these acts in completely open and public areas even performing in red square which is always full of police. They took it to far this time by doing their performance and screaming obscenities inside a church on an alter for pure shock value and attention.....oh yeah without permission.
Irrelevant. The trial jailed them for hooliganism by blasphemy. Something that isn't actually illegal in Russia. You really want to blame them for being stupid, but that just shows a true lack of morals or courage at the core of your debating position.
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Frazzled wrote: Additionally, people in churches are more antsy now. You throw a freakout in a church and you might get in a world of hurt really really fast.
Sure its political punishment. Its also a political act. In a church. By losers.
So you're on record as being ok when a government jails its citizens and stifles their freedom of speech if you find the speech vaguely objectionable? Any other flip flops you want to throw out today or is kicking your own sense of moralism or ethics into the mud good enough?
Frazzled wrote: Additionally, people in churches are more antsy now. You throw a freakout in a church and you might get in a world of hurt really really fast.
Sure its political punishment. Its also a political act. In a church. By losers.
So you're on record as being ok when a government jails its citizens and stifles their freedom of speech if you find the speech vaguely objectionable? Any other flip flops you want to throw out today or is kicking your own sense of moralism or ethics into the mud good enough?
I'm on record as noting its not US citizens. Therefore Frazzled general policy is what they want to do is their business. Otherwise: 1) Putin is a dictator. He has reinstalled policies reminiscent of the Cold War. However Russia is so lame now no one cares. ; 2) I'd be more concerned if the party at issue weren't so lame.
