Kroot, did they kick your dog or something? Just kidding.
The reports of shady dealings from AoW is what keeps me from throwing money at them because the models look great; there's just no point when I keep hearing that they don't actually get the product to people they take money from...
brettz123 wrote: What was the issue with people getting their stuff? Was it resolved?
they have a backlog of about a year on their warriors of apoc (**extremely** nice) not-chaos-warriors models.
it's a crying shame; AoW produces fantastic hero models (which you will actually receive within a month of ordering, too!) and stunning regiments - now if only they actually had the production capabilities to handle the amount of orders they'd be huge in no time.
funny enough, he got ~$40K from his indiegogo campaign and quite certainly that several times again from warriors of apoc orders, so I don't understand how he could *not* have the money to create just a little more production capability...
agnosto wrote: Kroot, did they kick your dog or something?
No, that's Mantic
Avatars of War took money in February for producing Warriors of Chaos(Apoc), and AFAIK not all customers got theirs yet.
Avatars of War took money end of June to produce a Dwarf army.
Now Avatars of War shows us the Harpies and Chaos troops that they are working on. Maybe they should rather produce all the things that customers already paid for several months ago.
That's the point I was trying to make.
I'm still waiting on some Apoc warriors I ordered back in May, didn't realize they were on such a crazy backlog. I've sent them a few emails but never gotten anything returned.
I am very curious for his dwarfs from the Kickstarter, but I agree he really should finish those first... but perhaps he had already sculpted these, you know!
I agree with all the above posts asking for better pictures, at they moment they look pretty rough. Not a big fan of the ludicrously large cricket bat the leader is holding either...
I finally received my Warriors of Apoc boxset in the post today, i placed my order on the 24th of February a few days before the pre-order cutoff date. so at this point AoW must be pretty close to having all of the initial pre-orders sent out.
The quality of the models is simply amazing, but no matter how good the models are having people wait up to 6 months for their orders to be cast up and posted is just too long. AoW desperately need to increase their production capabilities of Warcast, especially since alot of their future releases are going to be made out of it.
I will admit I love the AoW models. I can even stomach the price they chare in the UK for them as they are imported from abroad then have a stupid amount of tax put on them by the British government to line their own pockets. When I saw the dwarf kickstaer I would have danced for joy if I was not semi crippled with pain.
But yeah, better pictures and actually getting out what has been paid for is starting to have me look away from AoW and not want to shout "shut up and take my money" at them. It is good to be working on new stuff, but if there are no customers left who will buy it because you won't give them what they paid for, what is the point?
I assume no matter what we get VAT added onto it. Kinda sucks, plus transportation costs added into it. Yet no one mentions AoW prices when they do GW prices for the character models...
I'm more interested in finding out when we backers of the kcikstarter might expect our standard bearer. Though I hold no hope it'll be before this time next year if at all. At least it was only $15....
scipio.au wrote: Still not a single update on the Dwarfs. I'm glad I only went in for $30...
Well they did release this image of the iron shield dwarves a month ago, but for some some reason they only posted it on their own forums and their Facebook page. I think its pretty lazy of them to not even bother uploading it to the IGG page, i mean these people did help fund the kit after all...
Vermillion wrote: I assume no matter what we get VAT added onto it. Kinda sucks, plus transportation costs added into it. Yet no one mentions AoW prices when they do GW prices for the character models...
VAT is applied to everything, import or not, so I'm not sure what the point of that outburst really was. Oh, and UK VAT is actually lower than Spain's.
Mr Gutsy wrote: Well they did release this image of the iron shield dwarves a month ago, but for some some reason they only posted it on their own forums and their Facebook page. I think its pretty lazy of them to not even bother uploading it to the IGG page, i mean these people did help fund the kit after all...
Dang
I have pretty much decided that funds towards the end of next year will go to an AoW dwarf army. Contingent on two things:
1) They actually release the darn models
2) I can buy them somewhere other than direct
If so... those sculpts are "Take my money" awesome. But not enough to overcome 1 and 2 above. No way I'm preordering from this company............
Alpharius wrote: They really should spread that image around - they look great!
Now, if only WFB 8th was actually worth playing...
More worthwhile than warhammer 40,000 has been since 3rd ed still despite the negative sides of 8th
I'm still tempted by getting hold of some of their not chaos warriors, but am convinced I wouldn't see them till 2014 with my kind of luck. They really should sell to stockists, the dwarf not slayers are availavbe from them after all.
Personally I think those harpies look great; I don't play Dark Elves, Beastmen or Daemons, so they're not much use to me. But they look vicious, nasty and ugly, which is how I think Harpies should look, and they look like they're actually flying, which is a bonus for a flying unit......
Regarding the debacle that was the release of the Warcast Apoc Warriors, Avatars of War have realised the scale of the problem, and taken some pretty strong steps to remedy the situation. They increased their production with an extra machine, but also redesigned the Apoc Warriors to reduce the production load (and make them easier to rank up, which was a real problem). Here's what Felix said on his forum at http://www.avatars-of-war.com/eng/forum/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=913;
Finally, our WarCast production is very good now, with 4 full time employees dedicated to it. It is for example much bigger than metal casting.
The problem with Apoc has been the too high number of pieces per box (around 160) which makes its production a total nightmare. For example, to produce 1000 boxes in a month we need to be able to cast 8.000 pieces per day. We have a high production but not that high!
Well, to sort this we have postponed all Warcast releases, and redesigned the Apoc boxes to 65-70 pieces each: They are still multipose, rank easier, much faster to assemble, and are much more robust when assembled (so i think it has been a very good step).
We hope to resume WarCast releases during September!
So the Apoc Warriors should be available again for normal purchasing, soon if not already. When I finish my current army, I'll definitely be buying some boxes of these.
If you'de preordered some on the basis of what you'd seen of the originals (160 bits per box) you might well fell dissapointed if when they finally showed up they were NOT what you thought you were getting......
unless he contacted all the pre-orderers and offered a refund or the 'new' versions ?
If you'de preordered some on the basis of what you'd seen of the originals (160 bits per box) you might well fell dissapointed if when they finally showed up they were NOT what you thought you were getting......
unless he contacted all the pre-orderers and offered a refund or the 'new' versions ?
My take on it is that they manufactured the preorders as advertised, and while that was grinding slowly to completion, reconfigered the Apoc Warriors into their new design (with 65-70 bits). It wasn't just the production bottleneck that made them do this, they were also getting a lot of feedback on ranking the units and how much time it took to assemble a box (many hours.....).
I know AoW copped a lot of flak for the Apoc pre-orders and the delivery delay, and rightfully so. But their added production and the willingness to reconfigure the excellent Apoc Warrior box hopefully means that this won't happen again. Time will tell on that of course, but I know that I'll be buying from them in future. I'm wondering what the Torment Warriors are going to look like. I want a Slaaneshi Chaos army, and AoW look perfect for Dominant Bob and the Manlove Legion.
I remain extremely interested in this company, despite their production problems, due to the fantastic nature of their sculpts. I hope they sell all the dwarfs they're producing (since they're slated to do quite a number after the Indiegogo campaign!) to distributors... with the rumors about a new dwarf book for fantasy, they'd do really well!
Alongside the new models, which they really should make available to distributors, it's also the rules they are said to be working on which interest me. As they happen to have races which coincide with GW stuff I already own, could be playing pretty fast too .
Perhaps something along the lines of free pdf rulebooks while it is in playtesting to get players feedback like mantic did and pdf the army lists they have armies for/are working on would go a long way to helping AoW too.
grefven wrote: Ehh.. Totally disappointed with these dwarves. The legs look totally off and their waist look quite strange, too.
No, they look rushed and poorly executed.
Yes, but to be fair any dwarf looks good to a die hard dwarf player. GW has pushed back the dwarf book for awhile now and probably won't be out till end of 2013 or beginning of 2014.
So any suitable model for dwarf plastics is worth dwarf players to be excited
I like the harpies a lot. I'm happy with the ugly, twisted appearance; that seems in line with the dark elf army, that tortures and twists beasts to their will.
The positions are quite dynamic, and haven't simply been posted on tall objects to give the impression of "flight". I'm sure the price will bring tears to my eyes, but I would definitely pick up some of those if my LGS brings them in.
Is it wrong that I am already waiting for the Warpath kickstarter even though I have over 300 minis already coming to me through this and a couple of other ks?
Those Bronzeshield warriors are pretty disappointing, im really hoping AOW aren't just rushing these kits out to meet their January 2013 deadline. I'd rather wait a few months than wind up with sub-par miniatures.
This is actually something that im concerned might affect Mantic in a few months, with both dreadball and Kings of war (and to a lesser extent Warpath.) expecting tons of models im worried to avoid potentially having to delay either waves of miniatures Mantic might choose to produce lower quality models to save time.
Not trying to talk 'gak' about Mantic, they've been producing some great high quality stuff over the past year but a lot of their earlier stuff is pretty swing and miss. And its very easy to fall back into old bad habits when under pressure.
I think that's a valid concern, and I brought the same one up in regard to "Betty" in the Bombshell Babes KS. On the other hand, Mantic's newer KoW and DreadBall greens that have been shown are (mostly) the best figures they've shown in their catalogue to date. Aside from some questionable ones like the Female Vampire's head, Mantic's new stuff is quite impressive.
Commander Cain wrote: Is it wrong that I am already waiting for the Warpath kickstarter even though I have over 300 minis already coming to me through this and a couple of other ks?
Ah. It seems I found the wrong thread. Great looking dwarves anyway!
I must admit the minis came within two weeks and there are the best count has nurgle warriors I have everseen this side of rackham. They blow must fantasy models out of the water.
I received mine a week ago, it took around 15 days for them too arrive. Which was nothing compared to the 6 month wait i had with the Warriors of Apoc.
Overall its a great box set, The models are well detailed and are very easy to assemble since they are are only comprised of 3 pieces each.
I was a little disappointed that the arms and heads were already attached to the torsos though, while it does make assembling them much easier it also removes alot of the character and individualism that comes with posing your own models. Personally I'd much rather AOW go back to producing these new box sets like the original pre-order version of the Warriors of Apoc, where each box came with 20+ unique heads and the models weren't already 70% assembled for you.
There were a few casting problems with some of the models in my box too, a couple of the severed head trophies located on the back of the legs weren't fully formed during casting leaving the nose and eye region caved in. The chain on the standard bearer model was broken, and the champion model was missing a few fingers on his pointing hand. Its really nothing some putty can't fix, but they could definitely use some better quality control when inspecting the models they send out.
Mr Gutsy wrote: I was a little disappointed that the arms and heads were already attached to the torsos though, while it does make assembling them much easier it also removes alot of the character and individualism that comes with posing your own models. Personally I'd much rather AOW go back to producing these new box sets like the original pre-order version of the Warriors of Apoc, where each box came with 20+ unique heads and the models weren't already 70% assembled for you.
The problem with kits like these is that they're made to rank up. Giving you lots of posing opportunities is wasted when to get them to actually rank up, they'll ben in the same positions anyway. The other option is uniquely posing them but they only fit in one set order in the unit, which is a nightmare for setting up.
Mr Gutsy wrote: I was a little disappointed that the arms and heads were already attached to the torsos though, while it does make assembling them much easier it also removes alot of the character and individualism that comes with posing your own models. Personally I'd much rather AOW go back to producing these new box sets like the original pre-order version of the Warriors of Apoc, where each box came with 20+ unique heads and the models weren't already 70% assembled for you.
The problem with kits like these is that they're made to rank up. Giving you lots of posing opportunities is wasted when to get them to actually rank up, they'll ben in the same positions anyway. The other option is uniquely posing them but they only fit in one set order in the unit, which is a nightmare for setting up.
Might as well buy some Perry Napoleonics, then, if you care more about ranking up than having exciting models. They are the best, most cost-effectively boring models available. Apparently nothing says "chaos" like yawn-stifling conformity. I can't wait to play out the Battle of The Remains of the Day with all the excitement of marching band practice right on my tabletop!
Thanks for letting me know that AoW has lost its coolness.
I wonder how he's going with the indiegogo stuff that people already paid for months ago like the multiple dwarven units and things like the limited edition standa--- oh, I'm sorry. It's too much, I just can't keep a straight face!
Mr Gutsy wrote: I was a little disappointed that the arms and heads were already attached to the torsos though, while it does make assembling them much easier it also removes alot of the character and individualism that comes with posing your own models. Personally I'd much rather AOW go back to producing these new box sets like the original pre-order version of the Warriors of Apoc, where each box came with 20+ unique heads and the models weren't already 70% assembled for you.
The problem with kits like these is that they're made to rank up. Giving you lots of posing opportunities is wasted when to get them to actually rank up, they'll ben in the same positions anyway. The other option is uniquely posing them but they only fit in one set order in the unit, which is a nightmare for setting up.
Might as well buy some Perry Napoleonics, then, if you care more about ranking up than having exciting models. They are the best, most cost-effectively boring models available. Apparently nothing says "chaos" like yawn-stifling conformity. I can't wait to play out the Battle of The Remains of the Day with all the excitement of marching band practice right on my tabletop!
Thanks for letting me know that AoW has lost its coolness.
Are you buying these to put in a block unit to play in a game like Warhammer Fantasy or Kings of War?
Because if you are, I'd love to see your dynamically, individually posed models that rank up perfectly. Please post some pics.
I wasn't saying they have to be boring. But one of the big reasons they had so many peoblems with the Warriors of Apoc kit was the amount of bits. If they sacrifice those bits and make them a bit more static so they can actually cast the models, it's still win win. You get some great models, in some not so dynamic poses, that can actually be used in a game like they were intended, and Avatars of War don't get massively bad customer experiences from people waiting 6 months for a single plastic kit.
Casts are great, I believe all messy rotten elements were sculpted, as there is an ebay store selling some seperate bitz and IIRC they all look the same as on pics from the blog above.
scipio.au wrote: I wonder how he's going with the indiegogo stuff that people already paid for months ago like the multiple dwarven units and things like the limited edition standa--- oh, I'm sorry. It's too much, I just can't keep a straight face!
I don't get your point.
Avatar of War NEVER claimed to release all units in the next weeks. They clearly stated that they are trying to get everything released early 2013. They also said, that they fell behind in shedule and lost a few months, delaying everything into mid 2013.
You clearly have no idea how crowdfunding works.
RoninXiC wrote: They also said, that they fell behind in shedule and lost a few months, delaying everything into mid 2013.
When did AOW announce this delay? i just checked the IndieGoGo page and their isn't a mention of one. Or did Felix not bother posting important information about the campaign on the IGG page again...
Yes, they never posted that on their project page... which totally sucks monkey balls.
They usually only communicate through facebook and their own forum.
Many supporters and active forum members told AoW many times that AoW should improve their communication skills and do more updates... but they still fail to do so. Which again, sucks monkey balls.
scipio.au wrote: I wonder how he's going with the indiegogo stuff that people already paid for months ago like the multiple dwarven units and things like the limited edition standa--- oh, I'm sorry. It's too much, I just can't keep a straight face!
I don't get your point.
Avatar of War NEVER claimed to release all units in the next weeks. They clearly stated that they are trying to get everything released early 2013. They also said, that they fell behind in shedule and lost a few months, delaying everything into mid 2013.
You clearly have no idea how crowdfunding works.
Hi there guy. Try not to be so rude, for starters. I probably have a better idea how crowdfunding works than Felix. For example, I know that communication with your backers/customers is key. Since July, I've received a total of two updates from them. Even during the campaign, Felix presented as arrogant and unwilling to either communicate or offer much value. He pissed away his customer goodwill and has shown to be unreliable. This is why his Kickstarter barely eked out $40k in the end, when based on the quality of his sculpting it should have gone well over $100k. The debacle with his not-chaos-warriors pre-orders shows that this is typical behaviour. Great sculptor, awful businessman.
If you want to see "how crowdfunding works", try looking at Mantic Games and their Kings of War or Dreadbowl efforts. Or Dreamforge Miniatures, or Stonehaven Miniatures. Not to mention Reaper. Customer goodwill is worth a lot of money. Providing updates to your customers goes a long way to earning and keeping goodwill. Both IGG and KS offer a mechanism to communicate with your customers with regular updates.
Expecting people to follow your own forums or facebook is arrogant, when it would only take a few minutes each time to update all of your backers. Felix doesn't even bother to upload pictures/updates to the English portion of his own forums as often as he does the Spanish pages. Would I pledge to AoW again? Probably not. Maybe just a small token amount if he offered something like the standard bearer again. Why? Well, if Felix can't be bothered, why should I?
isn't 40k double the amount they set their first goal? That is not "eked out". That is quite a success for sucha small company.
But that's not the point: You said : "I wonder how he's going with the indiegogo stuff that people already paid for months ago like the multiple dwarven units and things like the limited edition standa--- oh, I'm sorry. It's too much, I just can't keep a straight face"
So you clearly made fun out of people who pledged. So who's rude? It's you.
Since the end of the project, they HAVE posted pictures of their two finished units + a drawing of a golemthingy. So they ARE providing some information. It's not a lot,but it's just not true that they aren't saying anything.
RoninXiC wrote: isn't 40k double the amount they set their first goal? That is not "eked out". That is quite a success for sucha small company.
While 40k isn't exactly horrible in my eyes, for a company as well known as AoW the Dwarf campaign failed to come anywhere close to the amount i was expecting it too reach when they first launched the campaign.
Personally im hoping to see AOW try their hand at a proper Kickstarter campaign in the future, one that focuses on producing units for 4 or so different armies instead of just a single faction. I think if the campaign was run well enough and included both the necessary discounts and freebies it could easily reach 300k+.
A truly successful KS campaign would just do absolute wonders for the AoW range, of course they would need to seriously get their 'Gak' together (And hire a decent PR rep.) long before i could ever see this happening though.
Please do not forget: Indiegogo projects have NEVER in the history of crowdfunding, came even close to kickstarter projects. Never ever.
Most of the money usually comes from the US and they seem to not pledge on european crowdfundingsites like indiegogo.
But yes, AoW should have, could have made a lot more if they had done a better project.
RoninXiC wrote: isn't 40k double the amount they set their first goal? That is not "eked out". That is quite a success for sucha small company.
But that's not the point: You said : "I wonder how he's going with the indiegogo stuff that people already paid for months ago like the multiple dwarven units and things like the limited edition standa--- oh, I'm sorry. It's too much, I just can't keep a straight face"
So you clearly made fun out of people who pledged. So who's rude? It's you.
Since the end of the project, they HAVE posted pictures of their two finished units + a drawing of a golemthingy. So they ARE providing some information. It's not a lot,but it's just not true that they aren't saying anything.
40k is appallingly small for what AoW should have done given the quality of the figures. I know it, you know it, Felix knows it. I actually pledged as well. I'm making fun of AoW, not the people who pledged. You do seem a more than a little touchy and defensive though. And still rather rude.
Finally, they haven't bothered to use the built-in tools of Indiegogo to keep all their pledgers in the loop or informed. (You know, people who gave them money upfront for products they may take a year to deliver on.) It would take minutes to do so. Instead they are lazy and arrogant, and choose to deliver updates to their pledgers in a way that the people who gave them the $40k have to actively seek out rather than providing their investors with the information to their email box.
Casts are great, I believe all messy rotten elements were sculpted, as there is an ebay store selling some seperate bitz and IIRC they all look the same as on pics from the blog above.
Might as well buy some Perry Napoleonics, then, if you care more about ranking up than having exciting models. They are the best, most cost-effectively boring models available. Apparently nothing says "chaos" like yawn-stifling conformity. I can't wait to play out the Battle of The Remains of the Day with all the excitement of marching band practice right on my tabletop!
Thanks for letting me know that AoW has lost its coolness.
Are you buying these to put in a block unit to play in a game like Warhammer Fantasy or Kings of War?
Because if you are, I'd love to see your dynamically, individually posed models that rank up perfectly. Please post some pics.
I wasn't saying they have to be boring. But one of the big reasons they had so many peoblems with the Warriors of Apoc kit was the amount of bits. If they sacrifice those bits and make them a bit more static so they can actually cast the models, it's still win win. You get some great models, in some not so dynamic poses, that can actually be used in a game like they were intended, and Avatars of War don't get massively bad customer experiences from people waiting 6 months for a single plastic kit.
I rarely play these kinds of games, and when I do, it's with friends and we don't get very meticulous about ranking figures up. However, for AoW's prices, I would never buy their models for rank and file. I do love display pieces and characters, though.
scipio.au wrote: Even during the campaign, Felix presented as arrogant and unwilling to either communicate or offer much value. He pissed away his customer goodwill and has shown to be unreliable. This is why his Kickstarter barely eked out $40k in the end, when based on the quality of his sculpting it should have gone well over $100k. The debacle with his not-chaos-warriors pre-orders shows that this is typical behaviour. Great sculptor, awful businessman.
This is why I didn't support, even though I wanted to. I'll eventually get some of the models I want, secondhand. His community interaction and unreliable or disinterest in his own campaign left a bad taste in my mouth. I felt that if the creator had no interest, why should I?
Mr Gutsy wrote: Personally im hoping to see AOW try their hand at a proper Kickstarter campaign in the future, one that focuses on producing units for 4 or so different armies instead of just a single faction. I think if the campaign was run well enough and included both the necessary discounts and freebies it could easily reach 300k+.
The Warriors will be back in December (2012 is supposed) (not all of them on one go though), the halberdiers for sure, and probably the great weapons later in the month.
On the Indiegogo page, he says they're only up for backers, not regular purchase yet (listed as out of stock). I don't see the Bronze Shields up at all.
Pictures don't do the models any justice. The details are super crisp (like for real, not this finecast crap) and I couldn't find any missing pieces. There are obviously loads of bubbles, but those are meant to be there ^^
Units consists of a 3-men command group and two of each of 7 variants (thus 14 rank'n'file models)
So sweet to Finally start to have unit options from companies other than GW. And with more character, too! (Although not more possibility in this case)
Here's that 360 view of the Ironshields, what do you guys think?
If AoW release all they said they would from the Indiegogo campaign (which had listed January as the release timeframe, although I'm sure many of the units are going to release beyond that) they will likely get my money. I am looking for an army's worth of dwarfs with a consistent look, probably to pick up in the spring.
Still, that said I think these could have been a bit better. Their backs, and their chainmail skirts both stick out as having had room for improvement. But overall, I do like them more than others that are available.
Regarding the Corrupters. I can understand the irritation that the heads are fixed to the torsos, as this lessens one of the key means of individualising the models.
But it doesn't look like the torso has to go with the corresponding legs. So with 7 of each, you can have up to 49 different miniature combinations. If you make sure that each head has a very different weapon to its twin, you should get a fairly high degree of differentiation. A slightly different paint scheme for each will help as well.
It's not as good as having seperate heads maybe, but I don't think that the Legions of Pestilence are going to look like the Coldstream Guards on parade.
EDIT: I bought the AOW Bezerkers/Slayers, and the models are fantastic. They're also a mongrel to put together, with 7 components each, more if you put the great weapon on. You can pose them in a million different ways, but the size of the models in relation to their bases means that most of them have to have their weapons waving in the air above their heads in order to rank up; so about half the regiment is in the same pose. Fine if you're a painter, but gamers will find that the poseability can be a pain in the buttox.
RiTides wrote: So sweet to Finally start to have unit options from companies other than GW. And with more character, too! (Although not more possibility in this case)
Now someone just needs to do Zombies.
Yes, I'm bringing it up again. We need better zombies.
Better GW zombies perhaps, although I can't remember the last time I saw a VC army without the Mantic ones - think they have been pretty popular (although admittedly that is probably a lot to do with the price).
Pacific wrote: Better GW zombies perhaps, although I can't remember the last time I saw a VC army without the Mantic ones - think they have been pretty popular (although admittedly that is probably a lot to do with the price).
They're still not better. As RiTides said, "And with more character, too!". The GW zombies have character, in that schlock zombie sense, but are technically terrible sculpts. Mantic zombies are technically better sculpts, but are so completely generically boring that it hurts just as much to look at them. Mantic zombies are like a sideways move in terms of quality. You sacrifice character for a better sculpt, or sacrifice the better sculpt for more character. And honestly, every time I hear someone recommend Mantic zombies, they always have the qualifier 'and they're cheap'.
I don't want cheap zombies. I want good zombies. We need someone like Avatars of War to get a good multipart plastic zombie kit out there with loads of character and options.
RiTides wrote: So sweet to Finally start to have unit options from companies other than GW. And with more character, too! (Although not more possibility in this case)
Now someone just needs to do Zombies.
Yes, I'm bringing it up again. We need better zombies.
AoW asked several times what people wanted next and always got the answer Witch Elves. He then decided to make Dwarfs and Chaos Warriors.
RiTides wrote: So sweet to Finally start to have unit options from companies other than GW. And with more character, too! (Although not more possibility in this case)
Now someone just needs to do Zombies.
Yes, I'm bringing it up again. We need better zombies.
AoW asked several times what people wanted next and always got the answer Witch Elves. He then decided to make Dwarfs and Chaos Warriors.
To be fair, with Raging Heroes Witch Elves coming out about the same time theirs would have, it wasn't a bad move.
Pacific wrote: Better GW zombies perhaps, although I can't remember the last time I saw a VC army without the Mantic ones - think they have been pretty popular (although admittedly that is probably a lot to do with the price).
They're still not better. As RiTides said, "And with more character, too!". The GW zombies have character, in that schlock zombie sense, but are technically terrible sculpts. Mantic zombies are technically better sculpts, but are so completely generically boring that it hurts just as much to look at them. Mantic zombies are like a sideways move in terms of quality. You sacrifice character for a better sculpt, or sacrifice the better sculpt for more character. And honestly, every time I hear someone recommend Mantic zombies, they always have the qualifier 'and they're cheap'.
I don't want cheap zombies. I want good zombies. We need someone like Avatars of War to get a good multipart plastic zombie kit out there with loads of character and options.
that *completely* depends. After mixing with some ghoul sprues and doing a hand swap here and there, I vastly prefer mantic zombies to anything I could have done with the GW zombies in the same time.
I don't even mind a "bad" sculpt with character; it's just that I can't stand most of GW's undead stylistically.
...Which is entirely subjective and totally not meant as a criticism to you; I'd just like to point out that to me (and quite a few others I know) things 'look' a bit differently, perhaps.
(one last thing I'd also like to note is that mantic zombies are significantly easier to paint to a decent standard at breakneck speeds. Something which matters when painting 80+ of them, as I'm just this week finishing up )
No offense taken - I'm not really a fan of GW's style of zombies either (though I take issue if you mean their Skeletons, which are far and away some of the best plastic skeletons on the market minus the bat wings). It's just that Mantics are just as bad, in a different way. I just use GW's because I keep getting them in package deals.
I'll just keep on hoping someone decides to do some decent plastic fantasy zombies that don't look completely generic or be terrible sculpts.
-Loki- wrote: (though I take issue if you mean their Skeletons, which are far and away some of the best plastic skeletons on the market minus the bat wings).
Alas, I believe 'tis the start of a great vendetta here and now; I hate those (...but fully acknowledge it's a toss-up between GW's and Mantic's completely depending on taste).
...so, how long will it take before we get that limited edition AoW dwarf army standard bearer shipped? I paid $15 US for that specifically to bitch and moan with the rest of you about AoW's epic knack for delay, and now it seems it's actually being worked on
-Loki- wrote: (though I take issue if you mean their Skeletons, which are far and away some of the best plastic skeletons on the market minus the bat wings).
Alas, I believe 'tis the start of a great vendetta here and now; I hate those (...but fully acknowledge it's a toss-up between GW's and Mantic's completely depending on taste).
My issue with Mantics is proportion. They're too 'thick'. They look like someone wearing a skeleton costume. GW's are actually some of the best proportioned skeletons in plastic you can get.
...**blinks**...
I think you mean GW's skellies are so 'heroically' scaled that relatively thick bones (an issue with pretty much all practical skeleton models) are less of an issue.
I compared both several times; the GW model *is*, in the end, cartoonier in proportions. whether it looks like that to you is, in my experience (hearing a bunch of opinions on both, mostly ) a matter of how much you like the rest of the style more than anything.
to call the GW skellies well-proportioned actually had me lost for words a while here.
still, let's either take this to PM's or dakka Discussions; I can imagine certain people, let's say uhh, mods?, not liking this in an AoW topic all that much
Bolognesus wrote: ...**blinks**... I think you mean GW's skellies are so 'heroically' scaled that relatively thick bones (an issue with pretty much all practical skeleton models) are less of an issue. I compared both several times; the GW model *is*, in the end, cartoonier in proportions. whether it looks like that to you is, in my experience (hearing a bunch of opinions on both, mostly ) a matter of how much you like the rest of the style more than anything. to call the GW skellies well-proportioned actually had me lost for words a while here.
Are you looking at the Tomb Kings skeletons? Because the VC sksletons are actually different, and small enough to look like they actually fit in a 28mm models body as its skeleton.
edit - you know what, I'm doing the whole agree to disagree thing, because this really isn't the thread for it.
Have they said if they have any plans on moving any of their metal models to Warcast? Because I'd rebuy the Vampiress in an intant if I could do away with the metal fig.
-Loki- wrote: No offense taken - I'm not really a fan of GW's style of zombies either (though I take issue if you mean their Skeletons, which are far and away some of the best plastic skeletons on the market minus the bat wings). It's just that Mantics are just as bad, in a different way. I just use GW's because I keep getting them in package deals.
I'll just keep on hoping someone decides to do some decent plastic fantasy zombies that don't look completely generic or be terrible sculpts.
I'm not sure if it fulfills your criteria of being not "generic", but Tre Manor's (Red Box Games) kickstarter transferred his rather excellent zombies into... something like plastic.
From his forums, it looks like he will be making these models available for general purchase after he fulfills the pledges, so... end of November I am hearing.
-Loki- wrote: Have they said if they have any plans on moving any of their metal models to Warcast? Because I'd rebuy the Vampiress in an intant if I could do away with the metal fig.
I think only new sculpts are being done in Warcast...
The new released characters (dwarf and corrupter) are metal. Which is kind of strange... the corrupter character coosts 11€ and looks almost exactly like a rank'n'file trooper for ~2€ ;(
My FLGS actually stocks some AoW. When they finish the indiegogo dwarfs, I'll likely ask the store to place my order, rather than trying to order direct myself. I assume they're getting their stock from a distributor or somesuch...
Hmm looks like theres going to be a new range of figures called the Dragonbloods
whether or not these are intended to be "not lizardmen" is up for debate I suppose, depends on how optional the wings are
The Dragonbloods are a race of dragon men of Saga. The race consists of the different lineages of the now very few in number dragons of Saga. Different lineages will differ in size and color, some will be able to fly and others will only be able to take long jumps, some are more inteligent than others. Different lineages will have different types of breath. Depends on the type of dragon that gives rise to the lineage. We have not yet begun to develop the miniatures for this army but you can already see how this new race will look
also theres a 360 video on their warriors of apocalypse
Interesting art... but what I'm really interested in is their finishing all the sculpts funded by their Indiegogo campaign, and supposedly to be released in January.
That's obviously not looking good for all the sculpts... but I'm hoping they'll have at least Some more of them done in that timeframe.
I'd love to put together an all AoW dwarf army next year... it just depends on if they'll let me
Maybe we see a Lizardmen kickstarter in January Maybe it allows him to finally produce and stock the products he planned to make before the Dwarf Kickstarter, the Hordes of Apocalypse (3 of 5 units out of stock)
In other words, I fear that he again lost interest in a current project and tries to get along with insufficient production capacities. And the Dwarf indiegogo project doesn't seem to have changed anything. A lack of communication from his side doesn't help.
I like his sculpts but keep hearing about how dodgy a company AoW is in that he never seems to ship or stock anything. A bit odd that he continues to produce models that he never seems to be able to actually get into the hands of consumers....
They'll definitely get my money if they ever work out their supply issues.
I think it's cool that they're going in their own direction as opposed to keep making warhammer stand ins. The Dragon men (?) look fantastic! I particularly love the bowmen.
Wow the lord of pestilence looks reallllly crude proportion wise, its like the 80's chaos warriors... Not a fan and IMO these do look a step backwards... even if just WIP.
RiTides wrote: When you say "these" you must be referring to the warriors of chaos WIPs (by Sergio) right? Because that crouching dwarf (by Felix) is awesome sauce
Yeah I was referring to chaos stuff, the dwarf is very nice.
The kneeling dwarf is awesome. I hope that they can pick up the pace and quality. They should try to honour their IGG campaign backers better and focus on finishing all the dwarves rather than pushing their Chaos stuff.
I really don't have a problem with AOW expanding their Chaos range, from what i understand they're using a different sculptor (Sergio.) for the Chaos models while Felix is focusing on the IGG Dwarves.
At this point i just want AOW to be direct with us the backers, because they're coming dangerously close to the final expected release date of January 2013 and yet they've only produced a fraction of what was supposed to be completed by this time.
What they need to do is release a proper Official announcement via IndieGoGo that the campaign is behind schedule, because the longer they wait to admit they've experienced problems the worse the negative reception will be.
Yeah I was wondering about an anouncement on IndieGoGo, too. Honestly, I'd rather have them finish behind schedule than rush the sculpts, though.
Still, at this point I'm almost wondering if June is too soon to hope for the range to be completed... as someone who didn't back the project and is waiting to pick them up when they're available, I'm rather far back in the line!
Mr Gutsy wrote: I really don't have a problem with AOW expanding their Chaos range, from what i understand they're using a different sculptor (Sergio.) for the Chaos models while Felix is focusing on the IGG Dwarves.
At this point i just want AOW to be direct with us the backers, because they're coming dangerously close to the final expected release date of January 2013 and yet they've only produced a fraction of what was supposed to be completed by this time.
What they need to do is release a proper Official announcement via IndieGoGo that the campaign is behind schedule, because the longer they wait to admit they've experienced problems the worse the negative reception will be.
Yeah, it's Felix from AoW - that's why I only went in for the Standard Bearer, based on their/his track record for timeliness and communication...
The standard bearer hasn't been glimpsed yet, right? It seems like that should've been done first, since so many folks were getting it and it's just one model (and that's all some folks were getting).
Speaking of which, I'll be looking to buy one at some point from one of you
Well, as a non-backer that works for me- I really want the regiments. But hopefully they either change the order or speed up, or I can see the backers getting antsy...
"I am totally busy with several regiments, which are much needed for warthrone.
The army standard will still take a while, when I get onto the heroes."
so wait, wait some more, and wait again
(hopefully all the regiments he's talking about are Dwarves, but I do wonder if he won't get bored and do something else for a while before the complete lot are done)
I was wondering the same... my FLGS had their dwarf berserkers, as did mikhaila's store last time I was up there. I assume they get them from a distributor.
I had been thinking to just ask my local store to try to get the regiments for me when they become available... but it would be nice to know of another source in case they're just not able to track them down.
More recently, I've been buying That Sort Of Thing from Firestorm Games.
They've got a pretty good range of AoW stuff, and offer a 10% discount and worldwide free shipping for orders of more than 30 squids.
I just noticed they're now stocking Raging Heroes as well...
Anyway, the guys there have great service, which is why I've been buying a lot from them since the demise of Maelstrom..
Well, I like to think I'm part of "everyone", along with the nearly 600 backers of the Indiegogo who really want DWARFS. Not to mention that he has obligated himself to make them, by taking people's money! So, of course those should come first.
Also take into account the popularity of the Hobbit movies, the fact that GW may in the near-ish future be making a new dwarf book, and the opportunity to make an entire range of miniatures for that race (dwarfs), and AoW could very well be onto something that will make them a LOT of money, if they can see it through.
I'm a huge fan of getting an entire range of a single race from one company. This hasn't been possible from 3rd party miniature makers in the past, but it's why I got in on Dreamforge and Trollforged kickstarters (for an entire range of space troopers and space aliens, respectively) and it's why I'm so interested in AoW's dwarfs.
Not only are they my favorite dwarf models out there (although there are some that rival them), but seemingly I'll be able to make an entire army with a uniform look- if I can only manage to wait a year or so till they're all available!
Personally, I think he will have them all out in 2013, but there's nothing for it but to wait and see, of course.
If he gets out a few different types of units (the ironshields, the thunderers, and say the great-weapon wielding unit) I would probably jump right in (through a distributor, of course).
RiTides wrote: Well, I like to think I'm part of "everyone", along with the nearly 600 backers of the Indiegogo who really want DWARFS. Not to mention that he has obligated himself to make them, by taking people's money! So, of course those should come first.
I was referring to an old discussion on the AoW board way before the indigogo campaign.
AoW: "What unit would you like to see first in plastic?"
Forum: "Witch Elves."
AoW: "Dwarves? Okay, I make Troll Slayers then. And next?"
Forum: "Witch Elves"
AoW: "More Dwarves? Okay, I start an Indigogo campaign. Anything else?"
Forum: "Witch Elves."
AoW: "Alright, I contacted Sergio to make some Chaos units. And next?"
Forum: "Nevermind!"
Raging Heroes: "Anyone interested in nice alternative Witch Elves? First shipment already sold out, second one coming soon."
First company to make a modular plastic kit of decently sculpted scantily clad fantasy females will make thousands of dollars.
But Mantic and AoW are not interested, so we have to wait for GW.
Same with a Tervigon kit by Troll Forged completely sculpted a month before 5th edition Codex and since then rotting on the shelves of Ed, unreleased for three years now. Sometimes, people don't see an opportunity even when it bites them in the nose
How far out do you guys think they would be from a full on release? Late 2013 or this time next year?
I'm pretty new to the hobby in general but I'm absolutely loving those concepts, an Empire army might be in the works if the sculpts mirror that imagery nicely...
And then they'll put it up for sale on their website and take 6 months or so to get it to you. I'm starting to draw correlations between Defiance and AoW.
Bolognesus wrote: ...except AoW is quite competent, just extremely boneheaded.
Competent? Aren't people still waiting on not-warriors of chaos? I will hand it to them they actually admit they don't have current stock, unlike Defiance but it still doesn't pay to pre-order anything from AoW if you want to see it...ever; the same as Defiance. Maybe Tony's related to the guy that runs AoW.
Personally, I love AoW's models; I have the Ogre Hero but I had to buy it from an online retailer because AoW never seems to actually stock anything. It's stupid, and I mean this in the rudest manner possible, to continue making new lines of models if you can't produce enough of what you've already made to satisfy demand. Yes, be successful but also be aware that someone might actually like to give you some money for a product and you actually have it to give to them at some point.
/rant.
reading that, it's probably worded a bit stronger than I intend but I wan to buy some stuff and it's never available so I'll just give another company my money.
I used to buy them from Maelstrom. Now I buy them from Firestorm. if they don't have stock of something, I ask them to cancel it and sub something else in. Works for me!
Once the Dwarves hit an actual store that can say "Yes, they're in stock. I'm looking at the boxes right now." I'll be buying a lot of them.
Same with the Empire.
If only they would actually restock their not chaos warriors they would actually be making more money as the demand seems to be there. Unless they're still trying to fulfill all those previous orders But yeah this, when the stuff is in a store I'll bite, like their characters and not nurgle warriors are . Really hoping they get the GW dwarves done soon though.
I've been wondering lately if money might be a big factor as to why AOW is so far behind schedule, they only made $39,575 with their campaign and set out to produce 10 Multi-part warcast Dwarf regiments, (along with a mortar/crew and 2 living Ancestor models.) And 4 Hero models, (Including the Warcast dwarf king mounted on a bear.)
compare that to Mantic who managed to raise a little over 9 times as much money ($354,997) and are producing 20 new regiments and 7-8 new hero models. Granted Mantic were also funding the printing of a rulebook and included a ridiculous amount of freebies. But even doing some rough guess work as to how much that would cost, there is still such a large difference between the amount of money Mantic and AOW each have available to produce their regiments.
While this is true, I think AoW would've been behind schedule no matter what...
The more I've thought about this, the more it bothers me that he didn't make the LE standard bearer first (which tons of people pledged for, and many just for that). That's very poor customer service...
Contrast this to the recently ended Imbrian Arts kickstarter, for which the creator changed his sculpting schedule when backers suggested he make the low-pledge-level popular models first, so that he can get out those pledges.
For AoW, it looks like the LE standard bearer is something like a Last priority... and that means it's going to be a Long time coming at the rate they're going (2 regiments finished, 1 WIP).
So, yeah... I know they don't listen to reason much but his order of sculpting makes absolutely no sense, and may earn him the ire of a lot of backers if it's a year down the road and he still hasn't done the LE standard bearer.
I'm actually not too upset with Felix on this one. The reason being that after what passed for communication and reason with him while the campaign was active, and the fiasco with the Chaos Warriors, I went in (for just the standard bearer) with absolutely no expectation of him acting rationally, quickly or sensibly. I do trust him to come through eventually, just not anytime soon.
Hard to be disappointed when you go in with expectations that low..
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Mr Gutsy wrote: I've been wondering lately if money might be a big factor as to why AOW is so far behind schedule, they only made $39,575 with their campaign and set out to produce 10 Multi-part warcast Dwarf regiments, (along with a mortar/crew and 2 living Ancestor models.) And 4 Hero models, (Including the Warcast dwarf king mounted on a bear.)
compare that to Mantic who managed to raise a little over 9 times as much money ($354,997) and are producing 20 new regiments and 7-8 new hero models. Granted Mantic were also funding the printing of a rulebook and included a ridiculous amount of freebies. But even doing some rough guess work as to how much that would cost, there is still such a large difference between the amount of money Mantic and AOW each have available to produce their regiments.
I don't think the money would matter. AoW is artist-owned, and Felix sculpts whatever he wants to anyway for the AoW line, does it slowly, and does almost all of it himself. Honestly, the IGG Money is just pay-way-upfront AoW preorders.
Mantic on the other hand freelances their sculpting, (I'm pretty sure neither Ronnie nor Orcy do the sculpting!) so they pay artists for the concept art, per sculpt etc. Hence the money goes out to pay for the commission work.
More concepts, now for Goblins (and he swears he is 100% sculpting dwarfs currently ):
Avatars of War wrote:With the imminent arrival of the Goblin army list for Warthrone (by now available in Spanish only), we’ll be showing some of the concept art!
The Goblins of Saga are strongly based on the movie "Labyrinth", a cult film of the 80’s. They are an intelligent race, mischievous and cruel (not evil). Goblin citadels are impenetrable, but in a Goblin way: No high walls and cannons, or big gates, no fences or moats,… one big maze is much more fun and effective!
Goblin strongholds are legendary and feared because all Goblin citadels are surrounded by a giant maze, a challenge full of traps and dangers for those trying to enter Goblin’s domain. A weird place that it’s like taken out of a dream (or a nightmare)... Very few have ventured into a Goblin labyrinth and have come out alive! And of those who did, none of them kept sanity!
Some still believe Goblins are no more than a story to scare children ... >
A Goblin citadel (image from the movie)
First batch of concepts
Trasgolillos (still have to find the English name for these small Goblins)
Goblin w/ Blunderbuss & Goblin w/ bow
Goblin Berserker
Guard of the Labyrinth
Changeling
Goblin Bat riders
Personal comment: I give up my hope that he will ever make Dark Elf Witches, as people on the forum urged him.
You really didn't miss much of a discount at all, and you saved yourself the hassle and stress of having to deal with AoW directly. Just buy them from a retailer when they come in - that's my plan!
I totally agree with Azazelx. I can't even get an account confirmed so I can post on their forum. AoW might create some nice miniatures, but every other aspect just pulls them down. It's a shame. :/
i don't think that the Bronzeshields are available to retailers yet, over on the Wayland games website the BronzeShields are listed as a pre-order item that are expected to ship late May/early June.
(Edit.)
Make that 7 boxes of Ironshields left... I just noticed that Trolltrader also sells the AOW plastic berserker box for $27 and couldn't resist placing an order.
Avatars of War wrote:Available next week for indiegogo contributors and July as a normal release.
Box will allow assembling 2x10 or 1x20 regiments with crossbow and/or 2H axes.
Personally, I am quite fed up with AoWs customer service, or actually, lack of it. I quite regret backing their IGG campaign, and I honestly believe that I will never get the value back.
So, if anyone believes in them and want to build a dwarf army, feel free to contact me and you can take over my IGG pledge.
kenshin620 wrote: Oooh thats interesting that they're going back to normal plastic
They really need to go back to making their beserkers (they were somehow limited right?)
AoW finally realized that restic like they use it doesn't scale all that well (in production numbers). In the long run plastics will always be cheaper, sure you might have a pretty significant upfront cost for molding (but even that can be relatively cheap if you contract it out to a Chinese firm), but you save a lot in man hours casting and packaging, molds that need to be replaced every x couple of times, minis that are discarded because they are defective (and the people actually checking for this). With plastic you dump 2-3 frames in a box and add a bag of prepackaged bases done.
The plastic Dwarf berserkers weren't limited, if you preordered you got a couple of limited bits.
I only wish they would do the rest of their range in 'proper' plastic...
Avatars of War wrote:Available next week for indiegogo contributors and July as a normal release.
Box will allow assembling 2x10 or 1x20 regiments with crossbow and/or 2H axes.
Out of curiosity, where did you find this? I can't seem to find the announcement anywhere on their website, or in the indiegogo emails they send. And as an indiegogo backer, this is the first thing that would make me "cash in" my pledge.
grefven wrote: Personally, I am quite fed up with AoWs customer service, or actually, lack of it. I quite regret backing their IGG campaign, and I honestly believe that I will never get the value back.
So, if anyone believes in them and want to build a dwarf army, feel free to contact me and you can take over my IGG pledge.
That's why I just went in for the Standard Bearer. Frankly, I'm not sure if I'll ever see that, either.
I backed the IGG campaign for the standard bearer, I hope I'll get it before the end of the year.
I'll be buying a full AOW Dwarf army when they are all done. I hope Warthrone is a decent game as well, although whether it will be out before WFB 9th or 10th edition is up for debate..
Really glad I held back and just went for the Standard Bearer. I'll never purchase anything from these guys direct. To many horror stories and the lack of communication on this is ridiculous.
Not some people- the huge, vast majority are waiting, all but a few as far as I know. Most people got the standard beaerer, and most wanted more than one type of unit, and there just haven't been many made yet.
What has been looks good, but it's been at a snail's pace. Personally, I've moved on and am going to be using FW chaos dwarfs for my army. Cheap and well sculpted AoW units would've been great, but they're just not available from AoW right now and who knows when they will be.
Kroothawk wrote: Just about to be released:
Avatars of War: Lord of Pestilence with weapon & shield
That's a nice model. I'll pick that up next time I buy from Trolltrader or Firestorm.
I suspected that his fulfilment would be awful. There were enough horror stories about the Chaos Warriors. That's why I only went in for the Standard Bearer.
It's official: There will be no English rules for AoW products, no official Warthrone or Arena Deathmatch rules in English:
Avatars of War wrote:Sorry guys, really appreciate your interest, but it is for me impossible to mantain warthrone in spanish and english.
Same happens with Arena Deathmatch and all the background stuff (Explore Saga section of the website).
Al this material will only be available in spanish, and any fanmade translation is allowed and would be much welcome!
Without being snarky, this is probably a good thing. AoW minis are essentially a WHFB-proxy range anyway, and the last thing Felix needs is more distractions like translation, given the endemic sculpting delays and production issues that the AoW side of his business is suffering from.
The AOW figures have been kind of tempting for some conversions. Have any of you guys picked up their Chaos range? What is the plastic they're using? Is it restic or actual plastic?
Cirlea is the largest and most powerful political entity, economic and military Saga. The heart of the empire is in Castria cirleano in Cirlea peninsula, but their territorial possessions extend beyond: South to the very shores of the Sea of Sand, and the East, thanks to the Navy cirleana, beyond Coráceo Sea, where the viceroy of New Castria govern a large territory beyond the seas. 's battle cry of hosts cirleanos is feared in every corner of Saga ... Santiago and closes, Cirlea!
have not begun to sculpt miniatures for this army but I can see how it looks this nation of Saga and download your army list for Warthrone
(that said it looks interesting, and worth looking out for when it starts showing up in store)
These crowdfunding campaigns are definitely a double-edged sword. You get money upfront... but if you don't deliver, it can become like a millstone around your neck. Looks like it will be that for AoW the longer they fail to make any real progress on what they've pledged to do.
I love the artwork and I love the look of AoW's models, I've even bought one as a present for a friend (which was a big hit!) but I'm cautious about buying stuff from them for myself or getting too invested in the idea of building warbands or armies with their models, as lovely as they are, because of the bad rep they've been getting for fulfilling orders...
I'll say it again though, that concept art is bloody lovely! A fantasy Iberian imperial power sounds right up my alley! :O
RiTides wrote: These crowdfunding campaigns are definitely a double-edged sword. You get money upfront... but if you don't deliver, it can become like a millstone around your neck. Looks like it will be that for AoW the longer they fail to make any real progress on what they've pledged to do.
For some reason, I get the feeling Felix doesn't much care. I'm not even being snarky with that comment.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Scrub wrote: I love the artwork and I love the look of AoW's models, I've even bought one as a present for a friend (which was a big hit!) but I'm cautious about buying stuff from them for myself or getting too invested in the idea of building warbands or armies with their models, as lovely as they are, because of the bad rep they've been getting for fulfilling orders...
Great models. Only buy anything AoW through retail though.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Kroothawk wrote: Can someone summarise indiegogo promises made, kept and not kept so far? Was there communication on progress to pledgers?
He doesn't use the Indiegogo messager to communicate with backers AT ALL. Some (one? a couple?) of the units have become available, but to find out you need to go to his forum, look on their facebook page etc - i.e.: you need to chase them.
Unfortunately, AoW is running their IGG incredibly bad. Extremely slow progress, a lot of sidetracking going on, zero to none communication. It's quite bad.
The REALLY big mistake, Kroot, that they have done so far is to not make any movement on sculpting the standard bearer, which almost half of the pledgers are in for only that one model. So, they could satisfy half of their backers by sculpting that ONE freaking model.
On top of that, they've got 7 more units to sculpt (or 8 if you count the gunners which have only been shown in green, not cast, form) plus all of the characters, an artillery piece, 2 stone giants, etc that was unlocked.
Those units each are supposed to have 10 sculpts. So, 70 more sculpts just from the units, plus another dozen sculpts for characters et al.
To have THAT much stuff outstanding, but to be working on other things and showing little to no movement on the campaign... is extremely poor form. You'd be out of your mind to preorder anything from them, and it's laughable that they could try to run another campaign with how they're doing thus far.
They need to lay out a timeline for completion, get to work sculpting units, and first and foremost, sculpt the standard bearer and satisfy half of their backers.
It's not rocket science... it's something that any person would know, and certainly people have given them this feedback, but they are stubbornly refusing to do so.
Any desire I had to support them evaporated with the way they have treated their backers... at this point, basically cutting and running with the money! If they feel they shouldn't be painted with this brush, they should speak up and update their backers, and get to work on what they raised money to do.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Oh, and if this was Kickstarter I'd be contacting them and invoking the "good faith effort" clause about their being obligated to at least attempt to complete the project they raised funds for. On IndieGoGo, I think there's even LESS accountability, if that's possible... and AoW are being the bad apple that will spoil the bunch in that regard, imo.
After my experience with AoW and Bruno's Goblins, I won't be backing anything else on IGG again. Kickstarter experiences are disappointing enough, but both IGG ones have been truly awful.
That's too bad to hear since the one IGG campaign I backed went smoothly, much smoother then the majority of my Kickstarter campaigns. The IGG campaign was for Clan Ito from Bushido.
RiTides wrote: The REALLY big mistake, Kroot, that they have done so far is to not make any movement on sculpting the standard bearer, which almost half of the pledgers are in for only that one model. So, they could satisfy half of their backers by sculpting that ONE freaking model.
On top of that, they've got 7 more units to sculpt (or 8 if you count the gunners which have only been shown in green, not cast, form) plus all of the characters, an artillery piece, 2 stone giants, etc that was unlocked.
Those units each are supposed to have 10 sculpts. So, 70 more sculpts just from the units, plus another dozen sculpts for characters et al.
To have THAT much stuff outstanding, but to be working on other things and showing little to no movement on the campaign... is extremely poor form. You'd be out of your mind to preorder anything from them, and it's laughable that they could try to run another campaign with how they're doing thus far.
They need to lay out a timeline for completion, get to work sculpting units, and first and foremost, sculpt the standard bearer and satisfy half of their backers.
It's not rocket science... it's something that any person would know, and certainly people have given them this feedback, but they are stubbornly refusing to do so.
Any desire I had to support them evaporated with the way they have treated their backers... at this point, basically cutting and running with the money! If they feel they shouldn't be painted with this brush, they should speak up and update their backers, and get to work on what they raised money to do.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Oh, and if this was Kickstarter I'd be contacting them and invoking the "good faith effort" clause about their being obligated to at least attempt to complete the project they raised funds for. On IndieGoGo, I think there's even LESS accountability, if that's possible... and AoW are being the bad apple that will spoil the bunch in that regard, imo.
Pretty much my sentiments completely. IndieGoGo campaigns just make me nervous in general, as there does (shockingly) seem to be less accountability.
As someone that initially pledged for the dwarves, but jumped ship to only the Standard Bearer, I must say I'm glad I did. I LOVE the AoW models, but clearly Felix and the crew have different definitions of prompt delivery than a lot of other folks. I don't understand the incredibly lax attitude...
To be fair, the kickstarter started after the Chaos Warrior sales desaster. So everyone on Dakka was aware that:
1.) AoW doesn't communicate
2.) AoW doesn't deliver in time.
3.) AoW likes to start new projects before older ones are accomplished.
So even if they made a Dark Elf army, I wouldn't have pledged. AFAIK, there were explicit warnings in the kickstarter thread. Not that I defend AoW's behavior, but it is something I was expecting.
No way I'm ever going to back them up again on any kind of kickstarter. Sorry, love the miniatures, like all of the people I've spoken to... but I can't take it anymore ...
Funding for IndieGoGo is handled by Paypal. While it is past the recoup period, you can still file a complaint. Enough complaints and Paypal will freeze the account and investigate. You won't get any money back, but AoW likely has their main bank account tied to Paypal and getting their bank account frozen will likely light a fire under them.
That is my understanding of Paypal anyways.
I avoided this project as well for all the reasons Kroot listed.
Can't everyone who pledged just sign a petition and we can start a class action suit or something? They got a good chunk of change and obviously aren't living up to what they promised.
Those of you who backed should post in the comments section on IndieGoGo and link to this thread. Perhaps if they see just how bad public opinion of their company has become, they will see sense and finish the standard bearer, give more regular updates, and generally behave in a manner which gets them a bit better press. As it is now, I would think they've lost more sales than they've gained through that campaign, and are continuing to do so by refusing to sculpt the standard bearer or update their backers.
Here's a link to the comments page to make it easy:
...Yeah, except things like that have been tried before and felix can be a real honey badger with anything remotely connected to the commercial side of his business. Shame, 'cause he's a great sculptor but he should really just be told to STFU, STFD and focus on the sculpting side of it all.
Seems AoW is doing a bit too well for him to be forced into that, though. The stuff they do put out is so damn good they can continue to limp by despite these obvious issues.
They know that "we" are not happy with the situation. They've been told several times on their forums and Felix HAS seen those posts...
Still.. not much has changed.
A reminder can't hurt, all the same! Even the most... steadfast... people can see reason when their business is being negatively affected in a way that could easily be addressed by them.
While I'm not worried about getting my BSB "eventually" - I have to say AoW needs to hire a damn business manager.
They make great minis but they do, well, pretty much everything else required to run a minis company so poorly. And Felix does seem to have a stand-offish "who gives a crap" attitude when it comes to pleasing his customers. (And during the Indiegogo campaign itself - when a lot of people were begging him to make some small changes to help turn the campaign around ...)
Schmapdi wrote: While I'm not worried about getting my BSB "eventually" - I have to say AoW needs to hire a damn business manager.
They make great minis but they do, well, pretty much everything else required to run a minis company so poorly. And Felix does seem to have a stand-offish "who gives a crap" attitude when it comes to pleasing his customers. (And during the Indiegogo campaign itself - when a lot of people were begging him to make some small changes to help turn the campaign around ...)
Which is really frustrating, as the multipart Dwarf Berzerkers may be my favorite multipart plastics that I own. They're beautiful.
Sadly, I think very few of the 'boutique' miniatures companies have any true business or project managers in their midst because they're such small operations. It's a shame, because having someone holding people accountable every day and keeping them on track really goes a long way.
OrlandotheTechnicoloured wrote: It's clear Felix is a true artist in terms of doing exactly what he wants to do. I'm sure the minis benefit from it, even if the business suffers
Then he just shouldn't take money from people in advance... it's fine for an artist to say "Screw it all, I'll do what I feel inspired to do." It's another thing to say "This is what I'm going to do, pay for it upfront!" and then not do it.
He first asked for money in advance, people got nothing for more than half a year or a year. All well documented on Dakka.
He asked again for money in advance while people were still waiting and everyone warned about long delays. So if you ignored the warnings, it was at your own risk. It's like making a Maelstrom order a week before collapse, hoping for a fine profit and then complaining about money lost. That said, I still think that Felix will deliver in the next four years or so.
Kroothawk wrote: To be fair, the kickstarter started after the Chaos Warrior sales desaster. So everyone on Dakka was aware that:
1.) AoW doesn't communicate
2.) AoW doesn't deliver in time.
3.) AoW likes to start new projects before older ones are accomplished.
So even if they made a Dark Elf army, I wouldn't have pledged. AFAIK, there were explicit warnings in the kickstarter thread. Not that I defend AoW's behavior, but it is something I was expecting.
Absolutely correct on every count - and exactly why I only went in for two of the standard bearer (IGG exclusive, $15 inc int'l shipping.)
Im mildly okay with the delay, its become a running theme amongst KS campaigns that they're almost always late. But like others have said the complete lack of information/communication from Avatar of War has really soured my opinion of them.
I will say that i appreciate that AoW are actually putting effort into producing each of these Dwarf boxsets, They could have easily been cheap like Mantic were with the KoW Kickstarter and produced only 2 torsos/bodies per box along with the bare minimum amount of other components so they can save some money and rush the kits into production.
Personally i'd rather support a KS campaign that's a year behind schedule but is slowly producing some amazing models, than one run by a company that releases half assed sculpts simply so they can meet their KS deadline.
Yes, it's true that the models are very diverse... but would we even notice if, for example, instead of 7 different torsoes in a box of 21, they'd only include 5?
It'd all help speeding up the process of releasing additonal units.
3 boxes of 5 instead of 7 toroes = time for another one.
Which is just foolish, as all those people who dipped their toes in with the standard bearer may have bought regiments afterwards. You can bet that almost none of them will be after waiting so long for a single model...
RiTides wrote: Which is just foolish, as all those people who dipped their toes in with the standard bearer may have bought regiments afterwards. You can bet that almost none of them will be after waiting so long for a single model...
Foolish but a fair warning But it seems that for the next few years, he can't handle more demand anyways.
The reason I'm so relaxed about this one compared to how bent out of shape I get about other Kickstarters is because this is literally just the kind of attitude and wait I expected from Felix. (Also why I wasn't willing to go in for a larger amount).
Even so, I wouldn't be entirely surprised if he decides to renege on it in some way, considering the $15 for the BSB includes international shipping. I - quite literally - considered backing for this one figure to be a gamble. And still do, really.
Automatically Appended Next Post: (how's that for low expectations?)
Yeah, I spend more on lotto tickets when it gets high enough. I'm relatively confident that the chance of getting my models is higher than me winning the lotto...relatively....
After I've got my pledge from the IGG campaign delievered I will do just as a lot of other people here on Dakka, which is not to buy directly from AoW again but go through other retailers.
New update and 2 new models are posted. So, it's not that they're not sculpting characters yet... it's just that they're not sculpting the standard bearer yet...
Just wanted to say that I received my AOW dwarf plastic pathfinders from the indiegogo campaign this morning, and they look amazing. Definitely the best looking dwarf miniatures that I've ever seen. I'll have to see how they go together (and will try to grab pics), but wanted to add some positive feedback.
Not sure exactly what type they are -- they didn't have the look and feel of resin to me, but they appear to be made along the same lines as the "Warriors of Apoc" models (from what I've seen in pictures). The torsos are connected to the feet by "pegs" which have to be removed before you can glue them together. (So if that was restic, maybe these are too?)
Avatars of War wrote:Here comes the miniature for one of the most popular characters in Warthrone army lists. The Master Gunner …
… get passing order dice and fixing those mortars! >
Felix posted this on his forum - they are switching materials due to costs which has been causing some of the delays:
I think some explanation on the state of AoW will be good by now.
About production problems:
There are no problems at all with metal miniatures production.
We tried the WarCast process for mass producing multi-part plastic-resin regiments. Thing is we were unable to make a profit at the porduction rate we achieved (even if we achieved a very high production rate).
Deciding to stop WarCast production for regiments was not easy, we tried during months to tweak this & that, we improved, but it was never enough. At the end there was no more choice but to switch to plastic injection if we wanted to produce the quantities we need.
So we have removed the regiments from distribution and we are now retooling all regiments for plastic injection production. Tooling a single regiment takes 2-3 months, and it does not speed up that much the process tooling several boxes at one, so it will take quite a while to have all the regiments back in distribution (even more as we will give priority to the new releases over retooling regiments).
First injection plastic produced regiment (the Pathfinders) will come on July.
Future of WarCast:
WarCast is a great production method for non-distribution products. So it will just be for online only items, where the direct sell allows us to make a profit.
WarCast will allow us to produce items that would not sell enough to be tooled on plastic, or weigh toomuch to be produced in metal, ...
About future releases:
The fact that I have to resculpt most of the bits of the different regiments (to make possible plastic injection tooling) has slowed me down with new releases. I will do what I can, but I can not promise a new release regiment per month now.
There will be a monthly plastic injection regiment, but it might some months be a retooled one, like the Corrupters, and oher months a completely new regiment ... there will also be of course new metal characters every month.
First injection plastic produced regiment (the Pathfinders) will come on July.
About Indiegogo Dwarf campaign:
Of course all this affects the Dwarf campaign new releases as well, so it is possible some months there will be no new Dwarf regiment (but for sure at least a new Dwarf character). To all disappointed Indiegogo backers, I can just say that I am working very hard, I simply cant increase the release rate unless I commission some miniatures to freelancers, but I would like to do the whole Dwarf army myself.
About AoW health:
Sales of metal figures are enough for AoW to carry on, so AoW's health is good. With the imminent arrival of the plastic injection regiments the future looks really bright. All in all AoW is healthier than ever.
Thanks for reading so far!
And more:
Xander wrote:
Will you be working with Renedra again? I quite like the Dwarf Berserker kit...
Not Renedra. Sprue ABS tooling for injected plastic is too expensive for a company of our size.
We are doing tooling for PVC injected plastic. It is not so expensive (while still thousands of EUR for a mold, not in the several tens of thousands like ABS) and the quality of the injected castings is very good. A good example of PVC plastics are privateer press ones. Produced castings are not as cheap as ABS ones (which are less than 1EUR for a whole regiment) but still allow for a good profit margin.
Note that you need a good margin, because if you want a product to be widely distributed we are talking about 50% discount from retail price. This is only possible (for multi-part regiments) with injected plastic (be PVC or ABS).
_________________
Miniatures gamer, sculptor and collector
Open, honest communication is all most consumers need to understand if a situation has arisen and then stop gnashing their teeth and being upset.
Rumor, agitation and panic all exist in the vacuum of silence from the manufacturer.
It constantly boggles me how many mini companies totally fail to keep their customers informed and then get antsy when customers have gathered and tried to work out why a problem is occurring, when a few minutes a day or even every few days, can alleviate this.
"Proper" plastic will be privateer press style, so I don't think the detail would be better than the warthrone. But if it means they can actually make them, that's a good thing.
They're estimating 2-3 months for each kit, though, and since their estimates to date have been... a bit short... I think it's going to be a long time till those dwarf regiments are made.
That said, in the past they seem to have prioritized the corruptors over dwarf regiments, and from their update, they'll be in there as well. So... you'll likely get your wish, while a lot of IGG backers will continue to get nothing...
If he's coming clean, he should also admit his mistake and sculpt and produce the standard bearer, which doesn't need to be made in warthrone and thus could be completed and satisfy a lot of backers.
For my part, I think I'm done checking this thread for a while... clearly, it's going to be some time till they can get the train back on the tracks, and despite coming clean with this it means even more delay on the standard bearer if he continues to put it after the regiments.
)
