Ellen Barkin Hopes Hurricane Kills 'Every Pro-Life, Xenophobic, Gay-Bashing SOB' At The RNC
(LifeSiteNews.com) - In the aftermath of the Family Research Council shooting, prominent voices on the Left have not tapped down their violent rhetoric against their opponents. Two Baby Boomer celebrities have taken to Twitter to hope pro-life, pro-family individuals and U.S. Congressman Todd Akin suffer a drowning or a same-sex rape, respectively.
On Sunday, Ellen Barkin expressed her hope that Tropical Storm Isaac would smash up the Republican National Convention in Tampa and drown all its delegates.
She retweeted the message of one of her followers that read: “C’mon #Isaac! Wash every pro-life, anti-education, anti-woman, xenophobic, gay-bashing, racist SOB right into the ocean! #RNC ” Barkin did not express any disagreement in her retweet.
The storm is expected to grow into a Category 1 hurricane before slamming into the Gulf Coast on Wednesday, the seventh anniversary of Hurricane Katrina.
Ellen Barkin Hopes Hurricane Kills 'Every Pro-Life, Xenophobic, Gay-Bashing SOB' At The RNC
(LifeSiteNews.com) - In the aftermath of the Family Research Council shooting, prominent voices on the Left have not tapped down their violent rhetoric against their opponents. Two Baby Boomer celebrities have taken to Twitter to hope pro-life, pro-family individuals and U.S. Congressman Todd Akin suffer a drowning or a same-sex rape, respectively.
On Sunday, Ellen Barkin expressed her hope that Tropical Storm Isaac would smash up the Republican National Convention in Tampa and drown all its delegates.
She retweeted the message of one of her followers that read: “C’mon #Isaac! Wash every pro-life, anti-education, anti-woman, xenophobic, gay-bashing, racist SOB right into the ocean! #RNC ” Barkin did not express any disagreement in her retweet.
The storm is expected to grow into a Category 1 hurricane before slamming into the Gulf Coast on Wednesday, the seventh anniversary of Hurricane Katrina.
Not that her sentiment is bad, I think if you manage to be all the things she listed that I wouldn't really mind if you did drown.
I also find it funny that those on the right get really upset about stupid comments that nobodies make, while liberals refuse to talk about actual violence committed on the poor and disadvantaged in this nation every day.
Not that her sentiment is bad, I think if you manage to be all the things she listed that I wouldn't really mind if you did drown.
I also find it funny that those on the right get really upset about stupid comments that nobodies make, while liberals refuse to talk about actual violence committed on the poor and disadvantaged in this nation every day.
excuses are like donkey-caves. Everybody got one. Recognize the crazies in your own party (wait I think yours is the communist party given your throwing around terms like "fascist" and "beougousie" in the past) and its easier for others to recognize the crazies in other parties (yes I'll agree Ted Nigent is both crazy and an opportunist).
True story: My uncle got cancer and was denied care because he had a typo on his medical history form (he lived on so-and-so drive, not so-and-so avenue 12 years ago), and then he died.
So, yeah, anyone against the Affordable Care Act can go feth themselves.
Or, are you only upset about hyperbole that has no bearing on reality, and not those that push policies that have lead to the death of my family so that people can make more money?
Well the article says she is a prominent source on the left. I'm pretty well plugged in to politics and popular culture and I had to google her name to remember that she is an actress, and that the only movie I've ever seen her in is Ocean's 13.
Seeing as we're told regularly that the Rep. isn't full of xenophobic, rascist etc etc people then I don't really see quite what we're supposed to be outraged over ?
dogma wrote: I had to google her name to remember that she is an actress, and that the only movie I've ever seen her in is Ocean's 13.
I knew she was an actress, not anything else. The statement is vicious - again to the many people who have died in actual hurricanes and the fact this is in fact an actual storm she is talking about.
reds8n wrote: Seeing as we're told regularly that the Rep. isn't full of xenophobic, rascist etc etc people then I don't really see quite what we're supposed to be outraged over ?
Actually according to the latest polling Republicans over have of them are xenophobic bigots, especially towards muslims.
Democrats and Obama voters give no group a net negative rating.
Republicans and Romney voters only give strong negative ratings to Arabs, Muslims, Arab Americans, and American Muslims.
TheHammer wrote: Not the Communist Party, the Socialist Party of the United States. And I'm not "throwing around terms", but merely calling people like you a fascist for advocating fascist policies, you fething fascist.
Oh my, I've just been called a fascist. Oh noes! Where have I advocated:
*corporate/government collusion and oligarchy?
*an adventurist foreign policy?
*a budget deficit?
*limitation of the Bill of RIghts - especially the First or Second Amendments?
reported, by the way.
But, seriously, I'm tired of you right wingers who control every lever of government and are only upset at the black guy in the Oval Office because he's black
***Actually it sounds like you're the one with racial issues. I've never said anything about race, only that he's incompetent. Ok I may have called him a yankee from Chicago once or twice. . .
and wants to tax the super rich a few percentage points more
I've espoused both higher tax rates (I believe I said Kennedy level) and limitation on deductions at both the personal and corporate level. I've even espoused elimination of corporations as "legal entities" under the law. So evidently you must be for lower tax rates. I've never heard of a socialist for lower tax rates.
constantly acting like you're a fething victim. No one is tying to fences and throwing rocks at you until you die,
Speak for yourself. Why do the villagers keep grabbing torches and pitchforks when I appear?
Just stop the act, it's petty and horrible and just shows how little and insecure you all are.
I can’t believe you’d say that. As an aside to these jeans make my butt look big? No really.
Ma55ter_fett wrote: I think he may have confused you for a card carrying republican frazz....
Its a common mistake. They call me all the time, or used to until I killed the landline. I still get calls from the Democratic party in Austin. I keep telling them I died and this is my ghost on the phone. No matter how many times I ask for a mere donation of a soul so that I can be reborn, they won't do it, and keep calling.
I seriously had to google Barkin. I wouldn't exactly call her a spokesman for the "left," whatever that's supposed to mean in this country.
She sounds like an absolute idiot.
Amaya wrote: Frazzled made a coherent rebuttal that did not involve wiener dogs?
What the hay...
Ellen Barkin's comments are nothing surprising or notable. Leftists (big and small) make similar statements on a daily basis.
A small prayer. The wife has Tbone at the vet as we speak. he's being having weird sudden drunken episodes. They don't appear to be seizures which is what he has cool drugs for, but maybe. Hopefully its treatable. I am grateful for the time I have had with him. he came along like a little version of Dad right after Dad passed and I am afraid this is not going to be good.
I knew she was an actress, not anything else. The statement is vicious - again to the many people who have died in actual hurricanes and the fact this is in fact an actual storm she is talking about.
She can go herself.
Sure, I'm not disputing that. I'm just objecting to "prominent sources on left." Its like treating Chuck Norris as a prominent source on the right. Both are actors with virtually no political influence, or importance to the larger debate and painting them as such is a case of deliberately conflating social disputes with political ones. Granted, Barkin herself is doing the same thing, but that doesn't excuse granting that position legitimacy.
Amaya wrote: Frazzled made a coherent rebuttal that did not involve wiener dogs?
What the hay...
Ellen Barkin's comments are nothing surprising or notable. Leftists (big and small) make similar statements on a daily basis.
A small prayer. The wife has Tbone at the vet as we speak. he's being having weird sudden drunken episodes. They don't appear to be seizures which is what he has cool drugs for, but maybe. Hopefully its treatable. I am grateful for the time I have had with him. he came along like a little version of Dad right after Dad passed and I am afraid this is not going to be good.
I'm sorry Fraz. My parent's cat went missing a few days ago and they're afraid she's dead. Some probably killed her.
Both parties have crazies and sane people (though the Republican party tends to have slightly more crazies). She's just some whackjob with all sorts of mental problems.
Amaya wrote: Frazzled made a coherent rebuttal that did not involve wiener dogs?
What the hay...
Ellen Barkin's comments are nothing surprising or notable. Leftists (big and small) make similar statements on a daily basis.
A small prayer. The wife has Tbone at the vet as we speak. he's being having weird sudden drunken episodes. They don't appear to be seizures which is what he has cool drugs for, but maybe. Hopefully its treatable. I am grateful for the time I have had with him. he came along like a little version of Dad right after Dad passed and I am afraid this is not going to be good.
Well waiting on blood tests but looks like related to his seizure stuff and a big dosage increase will probably help control it. Frazzled does happy dance.
LoneLictor wrote: Both parties have crazies and sane people (though the Republican party tends to have slightly more crazies). She's just some whackjob with all sorts of mental problems.
You've never been to Sonoma County I assume. We got leftist whackos out the wazoo, they make Rightwingers look tame. I know who I'd rather leave children/small animals unattended with.
ShumaGorath wrote: Oh look, an old and irrelevant atress no one knows or cares about says something stupid and a yellow news agency runs it as a major story.
Oh look, fox news ran a major story with poor sourcing and a clear political bias and motivation and fazzled posted and defended it.
Oh look, the sun still exists.
today is full of surprises
Well since CNN, MSNBC, et all refuse to cover anything that would put a negative light on the left wing, you could expect that you'll only see it on Fox.
ShumaGorath wrote: Oh look, an old and irrelevant atress no one knows or cares about says something stupid and a yellow news agency runs it as a major story.
Oh look, fox news ran a major story with poor sourcing and a clear political bias and motivation and fazzled posted and defended it.
Oh look, the sun still exists.
today is full of surprises
Well since CNN, MSNBC, et all refuse to cover anything that would put a negative light on the left wing, you could expect that you'll only see it on Fox.
ShumaGorath wrote: Oh look, an old and irrelevant atress no one knows or cares about says something stupid and a yellow news agency runs it as a major story.
Oh look, fox news ran a major story with poor sourcing and a clear political bias and motivation and fazzled posted and defended it.
Oh look, the sun still exists.
today is full of surprises
Well since CNN, MSNBC, et all refuse to cover anything that would put a negative light on the left wing, you could expect that you'll only see it on Fox.
How would you know, you've never watched them? Both covered the "is he a muslim" debate for months and tend to mirror any legitimate critical story of the left that you see on fox. The problem is the use of the word "legitimate" there which precludes a good half of everything fox news spits out.
ShumaGorath wrote: Oh look, an old and irrelevant atress no one knows or cares about says something stupid and a yellow news agency runs it as a major story.
Oh look, fox news ran a major story with poor sourcing and a clear political bias and motivation and fazzled posted and defended it.
Oh look, the sun still exists.
today is full of surprises
Well since CNN, MSNBC, et all refuse to cover anything that would put a negative light on the left wing, you could expect that you'll only see it on Fox.
How would you know, you've never watched them?
I watch CNN and CNN Headline substantially more than Fox actually. You've got me on MSNBC. A station that puts a criminally fraudulent race hustler on as a prime commentator (Sharpton) and that nattering nabob Matthews (what is he, deaf? Why does he shout all the time?) is way to craptacular for me. I'd really like BBC news but can't get it (I have regained the ability to listen to the BBC radio here and listen to that as much as NPR - hurray!).
I watch CNN and CNN Headline substantially more than Fox actually.
Yes, and you're also a libertarian now. There are a lot of things you've said lately that I'm not sure are true.
You've got me on MSNBC. A station that puts a criminally fraudulent race hustler on as a prime commentator (Sharpton) and that nattering nabob Matthews (what is he, deaf? Why does he shout all the time?) is way to craptacular for me.
But you like the station that runs an oxy addicted drug felon daily and brings on criminally fraudulent panel experts every few minutes.
I'd really like BBC news but can't get it (I have regained the ability to listen to the BBC radio here and listen to that as much as NPR - hurray!).
I watch CNN and CNN Headline substantially more than Fox actually.
Yes, and you're also a libertarian now. There are a lot of things you've said lately that I'm not sure are true.
If by lately you mean the last five years? Yes I’ve evolved into a Libertarian over the last decade, a progression that started when I voted for Perot. How about you Shuma? Evolved? Devolved?
You've got me on MSNBC. A station that puts a criminally fraudulent race hustler on as a prime commentator (Sharpton) and that nattering nabob Matthews (what is he, deaf? Why does he shout all the time?) is way to craptacular for me.
But you like the station that runs an oxy addicted drug felon daily and brings on criminally fraudulent panel experts every few minutes.
What network is that?
I'd really like BBC news but can't get it (I have regained the ability to listen to the BBC radio here and listen to that as much as NPR - hurray!).
bbc.com
Not on TV. I have that on yee old computer at work.
Oh yes, Perot, the guy that wanted to tax us Brits for 'protection money' for putting US nuclear missiles on British territory during the cold war. He was hilarious.
He said he wanted the UK to pay money for the last 40 years of protection. Tony Benn, appearing on BBC Question Time said that was a fine idea and we'd be delighted to after the US paid us for 200 years of protection money first...
He also claims John McCain, a tortured prisoner of war, headed a conspiracy to cover up US POWs sold by the Vietnamese to the Soviet Russians for human experimentation.
He's the demented loon Ron Paul wishes he could be.
MeanGreenStompa wrote: Oh yes, Perot, the guy that wanted to tax us Brits for 'protection money' for putting US nuclear missiles on British territory during the cold war. He was hilarious.
He said he wanted the UK to pay money for the last 40 years of protection. Tony Benn, appearing on BBC Question Time said that was a fine idea and we'd be delighted to after the US paid us for 200 years of protection money first...
He also claims John McCain, a tortured prisoner of war, headed a conspiracy to cover up US POWs sold by the Vietnamese to the Soviet Russians for human experimentation.
He's the demented loon Ron Paul wishes he could be.
No he just realized that, at the time you had a historical low in Haggis yields, and the then was the time to strike. He also said NAFTA would be a great big sucking sound and that lower class job rates would fall to $6 an hour. He was half right.
Well if the hurricane hits and causes a disaster lets see if Obama sits on his hands while people are knowingly dying as long as Bush did.
Wishing people dead in a hurricane takes many forms. Difference is Ellen Barkin is a nutjob that has no power to allow people to die. The same can't be said for Bush and what he allowed to happen to Americans on his watch...
Amaya wrote: Wait, is that Kanye West posting just now?
Its all Bush's fault!!!*
*(historically it was the governor and mayor's fault, but you have to understand FEMA, which is an assistance organization nor first responder, well it was somehow its fault. Just like the levies - despite having funds siphoned off for decades by Louisiana politicians for their "pet" projects was at fault too. And since Bush was President and he was a Republican well it was his fault. )
Amaya wrote: Wait, is that Kanye West posting just now?
Its all Bush's fault!!!*
*(historically it was the governor and mayor's fault, but you have to understand FEMA, which is an assistance organization nor first responder, well it was somehow its fault. Just like the levies - despite having funds siphoned off for decades by Louisiana politicians for their "pet" projects was at fault too. And since Bush was President and he was a Republican well it was his fault. )
Yup, you covered all the talking point. Nice job Bille, now have a cookie...
Amaya wrote: Wait, is that Kanye West posting just now?
Its all Bush's fault!!!*
*(historically it was the governor and mayor's fault, but you have to understand FEMA, which is an assistance organization nor first responder, well it was somehow its fault. Just like the levies - despite having funds siphoned off for decades by Louisiana politicians for their "pet" projects was at fault too. And since Bush was President and he was a Republican well it was his fault. )
Yup, you covered all the talking point. Nice job Bille, now have a cookie...
CT GAMER wrote: Well if the hurricane hits and causes a disaster lets see if Obama sits on his hands while people are knowingly dying as long as Bush did.
Wishing people dead in a hurricane takes many forms. Difference is Ellen Barkin is a nutjob that has no power to allow people to die. The same can't be said for Bush and what he allowed to happen to Americans on his watch...
Well, he's already more on-the-ball with the situation than dear 'ol George W was. Last I heard Obama has already declared some areas disaster zones to free-up relief money & personel to move in right away, not to mention he's said to the residents, "just GTFO when you're told to evacuate!"
But then, the people also have to take responsibility as well for their actions... The National Hurricane Center was screaming at everyone living along the gulf cost to run the away to higher ground when Katrina was lining up New Orleans, and alot of people just brushed it off as a 'been there, heard that, nothing ever happens' type of mentality.
Then we all got to see what happens when poorly maintained levies in a city that's only 18 feet below sea level gets hit by a catagory 3 hurricane... (now imagine if Katrina hadn't lost a huge chunck of steam before she hit.)
But then, the people also have to take responsibility as well for their actions... The National Hurricane Center was screaming at everyone living along the gulf cost to run the away to higher ground when Katrina was lining up New Orleans, and alot of people just brushed it off as a 'been there, heard that, nothing ever happens' type of mentality.
Then we all got to see what happens when poorly maintained levies in a city that's only 18 feet below sea level gets hit by a catagory 3 hurricane... (now imagine if Katrina hadn't lost a huge chunck of steam before she hit.)
Economic shackles played a factor...
Your analysis does not factor in the fact that for many of the exteme poor, elderly and infirm in New Orleans they would find it hard to just "GTFO" even if they wanted to.
It takes money and a social/family safety & support net to pick up a family if you don't have a place to go (a car). Hotels are expensive, so is gas (if your lucky enough to have a car), food, etc. For the very poor and others that I mentioned GTFO was not a valid option without assistance.
I have credit cards and savings I could dip into to facilitate a GTFo for my family. Many of the people that died did not. Also if you are dirt poor with no means to GTFO you are afraid to leave what little you do have (your home and meager possessions).
Nothing about Katrina was as simple as "GTFO" for many many people that suffered and died.
And their condition was well known to those with the power to do something about it...
But then, the people also have to take responsibility as well for their actions... The National Hurricane Center was screaming at everyone living along the gulf cost to run the away to higher ground when Katrina was lining up New Orleans, and alot of people just brushed it off as a 'been there, heard that, nothing ever happens' type of mentality.
Then we all got to see what happens when poorly maintained levies in a city that's only 18 feet below sea level gets hit by a catagory 3 hurricane... (now imagine if Katrina hadn't lost a huge chunck of steam before she hit.)
Economic shackles played a factor...
Your analysis does not factor in the fact that for many of the exteme poor, elderly and infirm in New Orleans they would find it hard to just "GTFO" even if they wanted to.
It takes money and a social/family safety & support net to pick up a family if you don't have a place to go (a car). Hotels are expensive, so is gas (if your lucky enough to have a car), food, etc. For the very poor and others that I mentioned GTFO was not a valid option without assistance.
I have credit cards and savings I could dip into to facilitate a GTFo for my family. Many of the people that died did not. Also if you are dirt poor with no means to GTFO you are afraid to leave what little you do have (your home and meager possessions).
Nothing about Katrina was as simple as "GTFO" for many many people that suffered and died.
And their condition was well known to those with the power to do something about it...
Yep. But somehow thats Bush's fault and not the mayor/governor's fault.
But then, the people also have to take responsibility as well for their actions... The National Hurricane Center was screaming at everyone living along the gulf cost to run the away to higher ground when Katrina was lining up New Orleans, and alot of people just brushed it off as a 'been there, heard that, nothing ever happens' type of mentality.
Then we all got to see what happens when poorly maintained levies in a city that's only 18 feet below sea level gets hit by a catagory 3 hurricane... (now imagine if Katrina hadn't lost a huge chunck of steam before she hit.)
Economic shackles played a factor...
Your analysis does not factor in the fact that for many of the exteme poor, elderly and infirm in New Orleans they would find it hard to just "GTFO" even if they wanted to.
It takes money and a social/family safety & support net to pick up a family if you don't have a place to go (a car). Hotels are expensive, so is gas (if your lucky enough to have a car), food, etc. For the very poor and others that I mentioned GTFO was not a valid option without assistance.
I have credit cards and savings I could dip into to facilitate a GTFo for my family. Many of the people that died did not. Also if you are dirt poor with no means to GTFO you are afraid to leave what little you do have (your home and meager possessions).
Nothing about Katrina was as simple as "GTFO" for many many people that suffered and died.
And their condition was well known to those with the power to do something about it...
Yep. But somehow thats Bush's fault and not the mayor/governor's fault.
As the commander in chief if the agencies in place are failing/not responding then you use your authority and act. If he can authorize and support the flying of thousands of soldiers across the globe to blow the gak out of various groups of people, he could just as easily put available air and manpower resources to use droping food/supplies/meds or attempting a massive airlift using ANY military resources available to facilitate it.
Sitting around pretending everything is fine for days while the news is showing people (american citizens remember) dying 24/7 in droves is disgraceful to the office he held and our nation.
Seeing it on TV and being briefed on whats happening are two different thing. If FEMA said they can handle it why would the Pres cut their knees out from under them?
There wasn't anything special about Katrina till after the fact.
And I'm pretty sure using the Armed Forces to help when existing organizations should have been capable would be considered improper use of men and materials.
The fact remains that Katrina was the fault of State and Local authorities as well as improper maintainance of the Levies. None of which the President should ever be concerned with, he's got more important stuff to do then micromanaging our crisis response contingencies.
Jihadin wrote: Seeing it on TV and being briefed on whats happening are two different thing. If FEMA said they can handle it why would the Pres cut their knees out from under them?
Because ALL evidence was showing that they werent handling it.
Being the president i would expect his sources of intel and the regularity of any sitreps received to be more layered, multi-sourced and detailed then "well Fema dude says he is cool bro, so dont worry about it..."
He could have also watched five minutes of any news outlet to see that FEMA was full of gak...
If I were president, I wouldn't trust the news to give me the reliable information. Why should I trust sources that are garunteed to be biased and sensationalist?
Jihadin wrote: Seeing it on TV and being briefed on whats happening are two different thing. If FEMA said they can handle it why would the Pres cut their knees out from under them?
Then I guess Gunrunner really was Obama's fault.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Grey Templar wrote: If I were president, I wouldn't trust the news to give me the reliable information. Why should I trust sources that are garunteed to be biased and sensationalist?
I wouldn't trust that I'm suddenly responsible for...well everything.
Since we mentioned. 10 people got wacked in Chicago yesterday. Its Obama's fault!
Grey Templar wrote: If I were president, I wouldn't trust the news to give me the reliable information. Why should I trust sources that are garunteed to be biased and sensationalist?
Video footage from hundreds of sources made it very clear what the situation was on the ground.
Grey Templar wrote: If I were president, I wouldn't trust the news to give me the reliable information. Why should I trust sources that are garunteed to be biased and sensationalist?
Video footage from hundreds of sources made it very clear what the situation was on the ground.
AFTER. Unless he had powers that were magically delicious it takes days to redeploy assets. The essential question is: when did the governor of Louisiana ask for aid, in what form, and how long after did it arrive.
Or should we have assets sufficient to save an entire city on 24 hour notice at all times? If so we need to bring some troops home from other countries.
Grey Templar wrote: If I were president, I wouldn't trust the news to give me the reliable information. Why should I trust sources that are garunteed to be biased and sensationalist?
Video footage from hundreds of sources made it very clear what the situation was on the ground.
AFTER. Unless he had powers that were magically delicious it takes days to redeploy assets. The essential question is: when did the governor of Louisiana ask for aid, in what form, and how long after did it arrive.
Or should we have assets sufficient to save an entire city on 24 hour notice at all times? If so we need to bring some troops home from other countries.
I distinctly remember that the gov/mayor rejected the initial Federal help...
Within the United States and as delineated in the National Response Plan, disaster response and planning is first and foremost a local government responsibility. When local government exhausts its resources, it then requests specific additional resources from the county level. The request process proceeds similarly from the county to the state to the federal government as additional resource needs are identified. Many of the problems that arose developed from inadequate planning and back-up communications systems at various levels.[95]
Or should we have assets sufficient to save an entire city on 24 hour notice at all times? If so we need to bring some troops home from other countries.
It wouldnt have been an easy task, in fact it would have been a cluster feth, but that doesnt mean you dont do everything in your power to attempt something. Anything as quickly as possible.
Grey Templar wrote: If I were president, I wouldn't trust the news to give me the reliable information. Why should I trust sources that are garunteed to be biased and sensationalist?
Video footage from hundreds of sources made it very clear what the situation was on the ground.
AFTER. Unless he had powers that were magically delicious it takes days to redeploy assets. The essential question is: when did the governor of Louisiana ask for aid, in what form, and how long after did it arrive.
Or should we have assets sufficient to save an entire city on 24 hour notice at all times? If so we need to bring some troops home from other countries.
I distinctly remember that the gov/mayor rejected the initial Federal help...
No one expected the levees to fail. The hurricane itself didn't cause tremendous damage, the storm surge toppling the levee into a below sea level city did. The levees weren't up to the scale they needed to be, but that wasn't really the fault of the sitting governor or the president. The governor should have asked for help, the engineers that upkept the levees shouldn't of cheaped out and failed, and Bush shouldn't of paralyzed FEMA with nepotism.
There was a lot of blame all over the place there. The last people that should probably be blamed are the millions who had a very short period of time to make a very costly and difficult evacuation based on conflicting and not always believable reports.
If anyones to blame, it would be people who oversaw the levee construction.
Heck, lets go further back. Whoever the dumb bunny was that decided it would be a good idea to build a city below sea level right fething next to the ocean. That person should be pubilically denounced.
Or should we have assets sufficient to save an entire city on 24 hour notice at all times? If so we need to bring some troops home from other countries.
It wouldnt have been an easy task, in fact it would have been a cluster feth, but that doesnt mean you dont do everything in your power to attempt something. Anything as quickly as possible.
And you're assuming it wasn't, without any basis in fact.
It wouldnt have been an easy task, in fact it would have been a cluster feth, but that doesnt mean you dont do everything in your power to attempt something. Anything as quickly as possible.
Only active duty unit that would have a whole brigade on ground in under 8 hrs would be the 82nd. A Combat Brigade.....
It wouldnt have been an easy task, in fact it would have been a cluster feth, but that doesnt mean you dont do everything in your power to attempt something. Anything as quickly as possible.
Only active duty unit that would have a whole brigade on ground in under 8 hrs would be the 82nd. A Combat Brigade.....
Also:
President of the United States George W. Bush declared a state of emergency in selected regions of Louisiana, Alabama, and Mississippi on Saturday, the 27th, two days before the hurricane made landfall.[16] That same evening, the NHC upgraded the storm alert status from hurricane watch to hurricane warning over the stretch of coastline between Morgan City, Louisiana to the Alabama-Florida border, 12 hours after the watch alert had been issued, and also issued a tropical storm warning for the westernmost Florida Panhandle.[3]
Thats earlier than what Obama just did. But its Bush's fault!
Hopefully they manage that without firing on them this time around.
i didn't know FEMA was armed. Must have gotten hold of some of the NOAA bullets. Its so clear to me now!
Didn't FEMA oversee the national guard operation post katrina for dispersing aid to stranded people and making sure they directed their "movement"? Maybe that was just the NatGuard being stupid on its own.
Many private caregiving facilities that relied on bus companies and ambulance services for evacuation were unable to evacuate their charges because they waited too long. Louisiana's Emergency Operations Plan Supplement 1C(Part II, section II paragraph D) calls for use of school and other public buses in evacuations.[25] Although buses that later flooded were available to transport those dependent upon public transportation, not enough bus drivers were available to drive them as Governor Blanco did not sign an emergency waiver to allow any licensed driver to transport evacuees on school buses.[26] However, 20 year old Jabbar Gibson armed with only a standard operator's permit took it upon himself to take a school bus and drive it to Houston with 50 to 70 evacuees.[27][28] Some estimates claimed that 80% of the 1.3 million residents of the greater New Orleans metropolitan area evacuated, leaving behind substantially fewer people than remained in the city during the Hurricane Ivan evacuation.[29]
This what got mine (whats a mother's cousin? I don't know familial terms). The ambulance got caught up in the traffic because it took too long in getting her out and she passed on the road. Sad deal. Was watching one of the videos looking down from a freeway onto flooded houses and my mom freaked - one was the home she group up in.
No FEMA doesn't oversee military operations. FEMA and DHS has no authority over the military. They can place Subject Matter Expert with the CoC but again. They have no authority
Hopefully they manage that without firing on them this time around.
i didn't know FEMA was armed. Must have gotten hold of some of the NOAA bullets. Its so clear to me now!
Didn't FEMA oversee the national guard operation post katrina for dispersing aid to stranded people and making sure they directed their "movement"? Maybe that was just the NatGuard being stupid on its own.
Jihadin wrote: No FEMA doesn't oversee military operations. FEMA and DHS has no authority over the military. They can place Subject Matter Expert with the CoC but again. They have no authority
Ahh, well I'll revise my statement. Hopefully the national guard can avoid it then. Either way it was a pretty sorry showing last time around by all agencies involved. The response effort on an organizational level was abysmal front to back and the nepotism in FEMA was visible (nepotism characterized an awful lot of the bush presidency).
Then-FEMA Director Michael D. Brown was criticized personally for a slow response and an apparent disconnection with the situation. Michael Brown would eventually be relieved of command of the Katrina disaster and soon thereafter resigned
Shuma I'm curious. Where do you see the NG shooting someone? As in link. All I'm getting is the police shooting someone at the stadium.
Then-FEMA Director Michael D. Brown was criticized personally for a slow response and an apparent disconnection with the situation. Michael Brown would eventually be relieved of command of the Katrina disaster and soon thereafter resigned
Shuma I'm curious. Where do you see the NG shooting someone? As in link. All I'm getting is the police shooting someone at the stadium.
There were reports of them firing warning shots into the air to traffic peoples movements around the city. They had orders to prevent looting and to herd people to shelters or out of dangerous areas, but the threat of death was implied via use of the weapons and these are American citizens in many cases trying to return to their homes.
There are also reports of FEMA and NatGuard helicopters being shot at (and indeed they had to suspend some operations because of it). The whole thing was pretty mad max.
There were reports of them firing warning shots into the air to traffic peoples movements around the city. They had orders to prevent looting and to herd people to shelters or out of dangerous areas, but the threat of death was implied via use of the weapons and these are American citizens in many cases trying to return to their homes.
Then-FEMA Director Michael D. Brown was criticized personally for a slow response and an apparent disconnection with the situation. Michael Brown would eventually be relieved of command of the Katrina disaster and soon thereafter resigned
Shuma I'm curious. Where do you see the NG shooting someone? As in link. All I'm getting is the police shooting someone at the stadium.
There were reports of them firing warning shots into the air to traffic peoples movements around the city. They had orders to prevent looting and to herd people to shelters or out of dangerous areas, but the threat of death was implied via use of the weapons and these are American citizens in many cases trying to return to their homes.
There are also reports of FEMA and NatGuard helicopters being shot at (and indeed they had to suspend some operations because of it). The whole thing was pretty mad max.
What whats wrong with that? There was widespread looting going on (as shown on TV).
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kronk wrote: There are also reports of people being eaten by alligators during the evacuation.
There are also reports that the levies broke because they were built by white people that don't care about black people.
What whats wrong with that? There was widespread looting going on (as shown on TV).
The national guard isn't in the business of doing policework and I specifically emphasized that they were using warning shots to direct people to shelters or to enforce restricted mobility (that wasn't communicated to the people being threatened), not just prevent looting. Don't respond to me if you're going to cherry pick something so that you can make a cutesy one liner.
What whats wrong with that? There was widespread looting going on (as shown on TV).
The national guard isn't in the business of doing policework and I specifically emphasized that they were using warning shots to direct people to shelters or to enforce restricted mobility (that wasn't communicated to the people being threatened), not just prevent looting. Don't respond to me if you're going to cherry pick something so that you can make a cutesy one liner.
Er.. Thats a big focus. LA riots being an example.
Jihadin wrote: Yes the National Guard can be deployed to prevent looting. Actually US Military Ground Forces can be deployed to prevent looting.
And they do it badly when they do it from a helicopter and shoot at people holding bulk packs of water bottles they're pulling from grocery stores. If they're going to feth it up and shoot at people trying to provide for survivors they shouldn't do it at all.
Jihadin wrote: Yes the National Guard can be deployed to prevent looting. Actually US Military Ground Forces can be deployed to prevent looting.
And they do it badly when they do it from a helicopter and shoot at people holding bulk packs of water bottles they're pulling from grocery stores. If they're going to feth it up and shoot at people trying to provide for survivors they shouldn't do it at all.
What whats wrong with that? There was widespread looting going on (as shown on TV).
The national guard isn't in the business of doing policework and I specifically emphasized that they were using warning shots to direct people to shelters or to enforce restricted mobility (that wasn't communicated to the people being threatened), not just prevent looting. Don't respond to me if you're going to cherry pick something so that you can make a cutesy one liner.
Er.. Thats a big focus. LA riots being an example.
Zombie games being the best example.
The LA riots were riots. Post Katrina was a disaster zone where supply lines were consistently failing and inadequate and people were dying due to a lack of supplies. I value the people who need the bottles floating in four feet of water in that grocery store over the profit margin of the destroyed grocery store. As a libertarian I would think that you would be against military intrusion forcing people to die via dehydration, but then I don't think you're actually a libertarian.
Jihadin wrote: Yes the National Guard can be deployed to prevent looting. Actually US Military Ground Forces can be deployed to prevent looting.
And they do it badly when they do it from a helicopter and shoot at people holding bulk packs of water bottles they're pulling from grocery stores. If they're going to feth it up and shoot at people trying to provide for survivors they shouldn't do it at all.
You mean the people going for TVs.
No, I mean the people going for food. It was indiscriminate.
INTRODUCTION: National Guard forces normally operate in state active duty (SAD) status when responding to disasters and civil emergency. During such assistance efforts, one of their primary functions is to reinforce law enforcement agencies. The National Guard, once federalized, like the Active Army, becomes bound by the Posse Comitatus Act and loses the ability to act as a law enforcement agency.
In Florida the National Guard performed its mission in a SAD status following Hurricane Andrew. A plan was in place, and units were trained and tested during previous emergencies. This preparation and training enabled the National Guard to provide immediate response and assistance to law enforcement agencies and other civil authorities throughout the disaster area.
As the storm approached the southeast coast of Florida, the Adjutant General activated units in its forecasted path. Other units throughout the state were placed on alert. Soldiers living in the path of the storm were assembled at armories north of the storm to provide a ready response force. Early activation worked well considering the uncertainties of the hurricane's path.
As the hurricane passed through Homestead, Florida City, and Southern Dade County, National Guard forces moved from the Miami armory into devastated areas. By this time, the civilian population, which had evacuated Homestead and Florida City areas, were now returning to their homes. The combination of military and civilian traffic caused a tremendous traffic problem and prevented military forces from arriving in the disaster area in a timely manner. During the first few days of relief operations, the National Guard provided security to prevent looting and rioting, provided medical treatment, cleared streets and highways, transported and distributed food, water, and medical supplies, and assisted in providing food and temporary shelter facilities for displaced families.
As federal assistance began to arrive, many relief functions were transferred to the federal military (JTF Andrew), allowing the governor to focus the National Guard efforts toward support of law enforcement. Through frequent and continuous support to law enforcement agencies over the past three years in counterdrug efforts, the National Guard was able to respond immediately to the needs of those agencies. Support request procedures and liaison had been established and were operational before the arrival of Hurricane Andrew.
The National Guard did an outstanding job of providing disaster assistance support to victims of Hurricane Andrew. However, with the overwhelming amount of devastation in the hurricane's path, it was necessary to augment the state's resources with those of the federal government. The National Guard provided an essential link between the state government and the federal military. This activity is invaluable in accomplishment of a disaster assistance mission. As the governors' first line of defense in times of disaster and civil emergency, the National Guard must coordinate closely with the Active Component for mutual support. Unity of effort in disaster operations is the key to success.
For the active components its providing security at designated points. Walmart with its parking lot can be used to stage military operations. Just ways around it.
What whats wrong with that? There was widespread looting going on (as shown on TV).
The national guard isn't in the business of doing policework and I specifically emphasized that they were using warning shots to direct people to shelters or to enforce restricted mobility (that wasn't communicated to the people being threatened), not just prevent looting. Don't respond to me if you're going to cherry pick something so that you can make a cutesy one liner.
Er.. Thats a big focus. LA riots being an example.
Zombie games being the best example.
The LA riots were riots. Post Katrina was a disaster zone where supply lines were consistently failing and inadequate and people were dying due to a lack of supplies. I value the people who need the bottles floating in four feet of water in that grocery store over the profit margin of the destroyed grocery store. As a libertarian I would think that you would be against military intrusion forcing people to die via dehydration, but then I don't think you're actually a libertarian.
If you have proof - actual proof- of people being shot by troopers for water, please present. The JAG might want to hear about it.
Jihadin wrote: Yes the National Guard can be deployed to prevent looting. Actually US Military Ground Forces can be deployed to prevent looting.
And they do it badly when they do it from a helicopter and shoot at people holding bulk packs of water bottles they're pulling from grocery stores. If they're going to feth it up and shoot at people trying to provide for survivors they shouldn't do it at all.
You mean the people going for TVs.
No, I mean the people going for food. It was indiscriminate.
1. Wait we're seeing complaints that nothing's being done. The NG comes in to restore order-thats standing issue in a natural disaster (they were there during the earthquakes as well) and thats wrong too? As you said this is a natural disaster. Thats military law time.
2. Again, pics or it didn't happen of people being shot for water bottles. Thats a pretty bold allegation. Maybe its correct, maybe its not, but you need proof for such.
Is now a good time to remind people of the Katrina refugee rape party in the Astrodome? At least I think it was the Astrodome...that's the one in Houston right?
Jihadin wrote: Who saying there's illegal kills in New Orleans?
Shuma. In Shuma's defense NO is the only known US city to have an active serial killer on the police force. Anything can happen in the Big Easy (ok except vegetarians)
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Amaya wrote: Is now a good time to remind people of the Katrina refugee rape party in the Astrodome? At least I think it was the Astrodome...that's the one in Houston right?
Whats awesome is that Houston is hours and hours away from New Orleans. We don't cotton to that here.
You're thinking of the Superdome in New Orleans I think.
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Amaya wrote: Shumagorath believes the evil forces of brainwashed racist National Guard soldiers indiscriminately kill looters taking vital supplies.
So long story short, a crazy woman hates republicans. Also, apparently, Katrina was a giant clusterfeth. I was part of the response force for Katrina (Eastern Louisiana, not New Orleans) and really it was a worst case scenario. I know from first hand experience that alot of the local National Guard armories were either under water or totally fethed. In many cases, they had to dig themselves out before they could be any use to other people.
Additionally, many of the actual soldiers were stranded due to flooded out roads, destroyed homes/cars, loss of communications due to loss of power and the confusion that resulted because everyone was cut off from the chain of command.
I personally met a soldier that actually hitchhiked 40 miles to his armory because his car had been destroyed and he had no communications due to loss of power/cell phone towers.
Disaster response is part of the National Guard's job, and frankly, we're dang good at it. However, mobilizing thousands or tens of thousands of men with all their associated supplies is a time consuming process. Some units mobilized people ahead of the storm which was a smart move, but many of them had families to look after and homes to protect.
I think it's fairly easy to arm-chair general the aftermath, and no doubt many people at local, state, and federal level deserve blame, but it really was the perfect storm.
NG troops back in NO today. Good call although this is a cat 1 only.
"Citizens have to be prepared. I'm going to ask you to hunker down," Landrieu said, as hundreds of U.S. Army National Guard troops took up strategic positions around New Orleans.
What whats wrong with that? There was widespread looting going on (as shown on TV).
The national guard isn't in the business of doing policework and I specifically emphasized that they were using warning shots to direct people to shelters or to enforce restricted mobility (that wasn't communicated to the people being threatened), not just prevent looting. Don't respond to me if you're going to cherry pick something so that you can make a cutesy one liner.
Er.. Thats a big focus. LA riots being an example.
Zombie games being the best example.
The LA riots were riots. Post Katrina was a disaster zone where supply lines were consistently failing and inadequate and people were dying due to a lack of supplies. I value the people who need the bottles floating in four feet of water in that grocery store over the profit margin of the destroyed grocery store. As a libertarian I would think that you would be against military intrusion forcing people to die via dehydration, but then I don't think you're actually a libertarian.
If you have proof - actual proof- of people being shot by troopers for water, please present. The JAG might want to hear about it.
Jihadin wrote: Yes the National Guard can be deployed to prevent looting. Actually US Military Ground Forces can be deployed to prevent looting.
And they do it badly when they do it from a helicopter and shoot at people holding bulk packs of water bottles they're pulling from grocery stores. If they're going to feth it up and shoot at people trying to provide for survivors they shouldn't do it at all.
You mean the people going for TVs.
No, I mean the people going for food. It was indiscriminate.
1. Wait we're seeing complaints that nothing's being done. The NG comes in to restore order-thats standing issue in a natural disaster (they were there during the earthquakes as well) and thats wrong too? As you said this is a natural disaster. Thats military law time. 2. Again, pics or it didn't happen of people being shot for water bottles. Thats a pretty bold allegation. Maybe its correct, maybe its not, but you need proof for such.
President Bush said that saving lives should come first, but he and the local New Orleans Government also stated that they will have zero tolerance for looters. White House Press Secretary Scott McClellan affirmed that looters should not be allowed to take food, water or shoes, that they should get those things through some other way.
As for actual cases of shooting moving through JAG or being pursued/prosecuted I'm not finding any immediately. There were a lot of news clips of overly forceful Natguard during the crisis and at the time those comments were a pretty major controversy. There were a lot of instances of force used by them in disarming the public that I can find, but that's not using shots to kill looters. I can find instances of warning shots, which is what I had inferred three posts in a row. The direct orders they had to prevent the looting of life saving items with lethal force stands by itself.
Their actual orders were to stop looting, even if it was for life saving items.
Stealing food because you are starving is still stealing. And it can be hard to tell the difference between stealing food and stealing TVs from a helicopter.
Yep, and that's the kind of thinking that paralyzes a government response and makes a military illegitimate.
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Grey Templar wrote: Their actual orders were to stop looting, even if it was for life saving items.
Stealing food because you are starving is still stealing. And it can be hard to tell the difference between stealing food and stealing TVs from a helicopter.
One would think that the grocery stores sign would be visible from the air.
ShumaGorath wrote: One would think that the grocery stores sign would be visible from the air.
As were the Wal-mart signs, I'm sure.
Man, I was under the impression that there was some good, some bad, some people harassed for struggling to save their own lives, some people who took advantage of a gakky situation to get what they wanted.
I'm glad you've come around to make it clear that everyone on the ground was a model citizen, and it was just the National Guard coming in with the jackboot of authority that screwed everything up.
National Guard forces normally operate in state active duty (SAD) status when responding to disasters and civil emergency. During such assistance efforts, one of their primary functions is to reinforce law enforcement agencies. The National Guard, once federalized, like the Active Army, becomes bound by the Posse Comitatus Act and loses the ability to act as a law enforcement agency.
How does it paralyze government response?
One would think that the grocery stores sign would be visible from the air.
An indicator of a possible looting area.
So your alright for the NG to stand by nearby while looting occurs. Remember that households also have food, clothes, water, and whatever of items that can be walked off. If your house was being looted would you ask the NG to stop it?
I think I I had the option between looting water to survive and the national guard stopping me without giving me the water I need, then I would fight for my family.
Grey Templar wrote: Yeah, but how do they know they're stealing water/food and not crates of wine/booze. Grocery stores sell stuff that can be hocked on the black market.
They don't. It makes policework from the side of a helicopter a foolish thing to do in disaster situations where there could be humane and legitimate reasons to steal or loot.
National Guard forces normally operate in state active duty (SAD) status when responding to disasters and civil emergency. During such assistance efforts, one of their primary functions is to reinforce law enforcement agencies. The National Guard, once federalized, like the Active Army, becomes bound by the Posse Comitatus Act and loses the ability to act as a law enforcement agency.
How does it paralyze government response?
One would think that the grocery stores sign would be visible from the air.
An indicator of a possible looting area.
So your alright for the NG to stand by nearby while looting occurs. Remember that households also have food, clothes, water, and whatever of items that can be walked off. If your house was being looted would you ask the NG to stop it?
I don't think the national guard should put itself into a situation where there is a reasonable chance that it will have to shoot citizens who are trying to save their own lives. Televisions and clothes can be replaced, lives can't. The national guard exists to protect people, not belongings. It's mission was flawed because it was a disaster relief scenario and it was being treated like a riot.
I think I I had the option between looting water to survive and the national guard stopping me without giving me the water I need, then I would fight for my family.
This will get you in trouble. Thought maybe you should ask the soldiers where a Service TOC is located to recieve the basic essential? Mind you. We cannot give you water or food from ourselves. Nor will we let you loot the store. That puts us in danger and you in danger.
don't think the national guard should put itself into a situation where there is a reasonable chance that it will have to shoot citizens who are trying to save their own lives. Televisions and clothes can be replaced, lives can't. The national guard exists to protect people, not belongings. It's mission was flawed because it was a disaster relief scenario and it was being treated like a riot.
Same applies to the above. We are protecting the people. If individuals are willing to loot what they need like D-USA say what would prevent you from killing/maiming/hurting other individuals to get what you need. Mind you people are "fighting for their lives". Its a deterrent force.
This will get you in trouble. Thought maybe you should ask the soldiers where a Service TOC is located to recieve the basic essential? Mind you. We cannot give you water or food from ourselves. Nor will we let you loot the store. That puts us in danger and you in danger.
"Help me I'm dying from dehydration" "No" "Can I get some water out of the store behind you?" "No"
The national guard!
Same applies to the above. We are protecting the people.
No, you're protecting peoples things. If you were protecting people you'd land the chopper and help get the soon to be rotting food out of the store and into peoples hands.
Not that her sentiment is bad, I think if you manage to be all the things she listed that I wouldn't really mind if you did drown.
I also find it funny that those on the right get really upset about stupid comments that nobodies make, while liberals refuse to talk about actual violence committed on the poor and disadvantaged in this nation every day.
excuses are like donkey-caves. Everybody got one. Recognize the crazies in your own party (wait I think yours is the communist party given your throwing around terms like "fascist" and "beougousie" in the past) and its easier for others to recognize the crazies in other parties (yes I'll agree Ted Nigent is both crazy and an opportunist).
My in laws over by Beumont had the roof lifted up from their house and had a wicked load of anxiety before and after Katrina. I agree with what you say about the woman and what she can do.
Help me I'm dying from dehydration"
"No"
"Can I get some water out of the store behind you?"
"No"
"Sir the relief point is four blocks from here. You need to head there. We cannot give you water from ourselves nor the store. Make haste please to beat the line. Your the second person to approach us."
No, you're protecting peoples things. If you were protecting people you'd land the chopper and help get the soon to be rotting food out of the store and into peoples hands.
Sorry people. The closest Relief Point is located at such and such intersection. Please head there.
Grey Templar wrote: Yeah, but how do they know they're stealing water/food and not crates of wine/booze. Grocery stores sell stuff that can be hocked on the black market.
It prevents the use of consumables already on site, therefore theoretically requiring more effort to be devoted to shipping in goods from offsite.
I can see prohibiting looting, though not because it involves taking the possessions of others, but because it leads to a chaotic and dangerous situation where people start competing for goods. However, it would be hypothetically possible for the government to reimburse any property holder for goods seized by the state in the name of the relief effort, especially perishable goods that will effectively be a loss in either case. Well, or be covered by the relevant insurance provider.
Apparently, according to Shuma, private property laws should cease to exist the minute a disaster strikes. By your own admission, you can't find a source. National Guard soldiers had rules of engagement in NO/LA. Typically simplified as show, shout, shove, shoot.
Show your presence/Show that you are armed.
Shout that you have to stop whatever it may be that you are doing
Shove or some other form of non-lethal behavior such as detain, warning shot (although we no longer really do warning shots), aim your weapon etc...
Shoot - self explanatory.
Those wasn't the exact ROE for NO, but the National Guard was called in to keep and restore order as well as provide disaster relief. Without the option to use force, it's damn hard to restore order.
Apparently, according to Shuma, private property laws should cease to exist the minute a disaster strikes. By your own admission, you can't find a source. National Guard soldiers had rules of engagement in NO/LA. Typically simplified as show, shout, shove, shoot.
It prevents the use of consumables already on site, therefore theoretically requiring more effort to be devoted to shipping in goods from offsite.
I can see prohibiting looting, though not because it involves taking the possessions of others, but because it leads to a chaotic and dangerous situation where people start competing for goods. However, it would be hypothetically possible for the government to reimburse any property holder for goods seized by the state in the name of the relief effort, especially perishable goods that will effectively be a loss in either case. Well, or be covered by the relevant insurance provider.
MRE's will be provided at the Relief Center. I cannot allow you to "loot" the store. There's no gray area in this. Its one or the other. It helps prevent a "Black Market" situation.
Apparently, according to Shuma, private property laws should cease to exist the minute a disaster strikes. By your own admission, you can't find a source. National Guard soldiers had rules of engagement in NO/LA. Typically simplified as show, shout, shove, shoot.
Which don't work in a helicopter.
Helicopters weren't armed in Katrina. No one brought a M240H to a disaster zone.
Show your presence/Show that you are armed.
Shout that you have to stop whatever it may be that you are doing
Shove or some other form of non-lethal behavior such as detain, warning shot (although we no longer really do warning shots), aim your weapon etc...
Shoot - self explanatory.
Spoken like a true soldier. Repeat the procedures to absolve you of moral responsability. If that doesn't work, repeat louder.
Apparently, according to Shuma, private property laws should cease to exist the minute a disaster strikes. By your own admission, you can't find a source. National Guard soldiers had rules of engagement in NO/LA. Typically simplified as show, shout, shove, shoot.
Which don't work in a helicopter.
Helicopters weren't armed in Katrina. No one brought a M240H to a disaster zone.
Sgt_Scruffy wrote: Apparently, according to Shuma, private property laws should cease to exist the minute a disaster strikes.
It'd be a good time to become lax about said property laws in regard to essential goods located in stores, yes.
What about goods located in your home? Since we're being generous, can I have your food and water if we get flooded? What about a small store that's already facing major economic hurdles and loss of livelihood from having their home and business destroyed? People pay their taxes with the expectation that the laws apply whether they are convenient or not.
Sgt_Scruffy wrote: What about goods located in your home? Since we're being generous, can I have your food and water if we get flooded? What about a small store that's already facing major economic hurdles and loss of livelihood from having their home and business destroyed? People pay their taxes with the expectation that the laws apply whether they are convenient or not.
Yes, even in my home. Good samaritan morality applies weither it's willful or not. If I'm not in my home, in the middle of a major issue, and someone is in dire need of something, then they can go and take it. How about the authorities supervise such appropriation, instead of repeating the mantra : ''that would cause other issues''.
Insurances will cover it up. If I'm caring that much about material goods. Honestly, I'd rather know they went to help someone who needed it, and didn't get away in time.
I'm I going to sue someone for trespassing, if took shelter in my home while I wasn't there, in the middle of a disaster? Feth no. I have a heart.
Spoken like a true soldier. Repeat the procedures to absolve you of moral responsability. If that doesn't work, repeat louder
Moral responsibility eh. Your not grasping whats this leading to. Nor how a soldier chain of thought is going to take him/her to. We cannot take sides. Its one or the other.
Apparently, according to Shuma, private property laws should cease to exist the minute a disaster strikes. By your own admission, you can't find a source. National Guard soldiers had rules of engagement in NO/LA. Typically simplified as show, shout, shove, shoot.
Which don't work in a helicopter.
Helicopters weren't armed in Katrina. No one brought a M240H to a disaster zone.
The men in the helicopters weren't unarmed.
there's a big difference between an M9 and an M240H. As a Blackhawk piot who works with over a hundred people who helped deliver supplies, fly rescue flights, and was on the ground within 24 hours of Katrina passing though (basically as soonas the weather was clear enough to get there) people were not shooting from helicopters to the ground. People were however, shooting AT helicopter FROM the ground.
Apparently, according to Shuma, private property laws should cease to exist the minute a disaster strikes. By your own admission, you can't find a source. National Guard soldiers had rules of engagement in NO/LA. Typically simplified as show, shout, shove, shoot.
Which don't work in a helicopter.
Helicopters weren't armed in Katrina. No one brought a M240H to a disaster zone.
The men in the helicopters weren't unarmed.
there's a big difference between an M9 and an M240H. As a Blackhawk piot who works with over a hundred people who helped deliver supplies, fly rescue flights, and was on the ground within 24 hours of Katrina passing though (basically as soonas the weather was clear enough to get there) people were not shooting from helicopters to the ground. People were however, shooting AT helicopter FROM the ground.
Yeah, I mentioned that one two pages back. That stuff was all over the news. As a blackhawk pilot who worked with over 100 people to deliver supplies, did you do anything about looting? Did you take part in the effort to disarm people in their own property?
Show your presence/Show that you are armed.
Shout that you have to stop whatever it may be that you are doing
Shove or some other form of non-lethal behavior such as detain, warning shot (although we no longer really do warning shots), aim your weapon etc...
Shoot - self explanatory.
Spoken like a true soldier. Repeat the procedures to absolve you of moral responsability. If that doesn't work, repeat louder.
Actually, moral responsibility has nothing to do with it. I was legally ORDERED to keep and maintain peace. It was a legal order. AGAIN, no one has provided proof that a National Guard member shot a looter in NO. Prove to me that protecting private property from looters is immoral. As a soldier, I have a legal responsibility to carry out legal orders. I have a legal obligation to refuse illegal orders. Preventing people from looting (and thus upholding the law) is a legal order. Therefore, I am legally bound to carry out that order.
Spoken like a true soldier. Repeat the procedures to absolve you of moral responsability. If that doesn't work, repeat louder
Moral responsibility eh. Your not grasping whats this leading to. Nor how a soldier chain of thought is going to take him/her to. We cannot take sides. Its one or the other.
Here is advocated the shooting of civilians in the case they become too persistent in trying to obtain essential goods, because, in a city where all semblence of law and order has gone, it is defined as illegal. Yes, I cannot understand it.
MRE's will be provided at the Relief Center. I cannot allow you to "loot" the store. There's no gray area in this. Its one or the other. It helps prevent a "Black Market" situation.
I'm not talking about looting at this point, you'll notice I said it should be prohibited, I'm talking about the state seizure of onsite consumables to supplement goods being brought in. The original owners would, of course, be compensated for their loss. Indeed, assuming they had the proper insurance, this could result in a net profit for them.
Granted, this is a comment on government policy, not a decision to be made by individual soldiers.
Here is advocated the shooting of civilians in the case they become too persistent in trying to obtain essential goods, because, in a city where all semblence of law and order has gone, it is defined as illegal. Yes, I cannot understand it.
Scruffy covered the legal portion of my orders. What would cause me to fire onto civilians KO.
edit
I'm not talking about looting at this point, you'll notice I said it should be prohibited, I'm talking about the state seizure of onsite consumables to supplement goods being brought in. The original owners would, of course, be compensated for their loss. Indeed, assuming they had the proper insurance, this could result in a net profit for them.
Key words...state seizure. Thats a no go. Scruffy got me on this.
Apparently, according to Shuma, private property laws should cease to exist the minute a disaster strikes. By your own admission, you can't find a source. National Guard soldiers had rules of engagement in NO/LA. Typically simplified as show, shout, shove, shoot.
Which don't work in a helicopter.
Helicopters weren't armed in Katrina. No one brought a M240H to a disaster zone.
The men in the helicopters weren't unarmed.
there's a big difference between an M9 and an M240H. As a Blackhawk piot who works with over a hundred people who helped deliver supplies, fly rescue flights, and was on the ground within 24 hours of Katrina passing though (basically as soonas the weather was clear enough to get there) people were not shooting from helicopters to the ground. People were however, shooting AT helicopter FROM the ground.
Yeah, I mentioned that one two pages back. That stuff was all over the news. As a blackhawk pilot who worked with over 100 people to deliver supplies, did you do anything about looting? Did you take part in the effort to disarm people in their own property?
I was unclear. I was an engineer at the time so i was working dozers and backhoes and stuff like that. I am NOW a blackhawk pilot and most of my company was at Katrina. Standing ROE as far as I remember it, (7 years, 3 deployments and about 6000 different ROEs later) was that we were to protect private and public property from looting but that we were not to enter any premises that was occupied without permission. IIRC, most of the disarming was done by local police. We did not possess police powers. We were tasked with protecting infrastructure. Protecting the food/water in Walmart was to ensure that when we DID seize it (and we did in some instances), it was fairly and equitably distributed and that the owners were properly compensated. Most looting was ignored by all accounts for the first 24-48 hours as I've been told. People were too busy saving lives. It was only after sufficient forces and supplies were in place that we really started reestablishing the rule of law.
The fething thing was that every agency had their own ROE. I'm not saying that nothing like shooting looters ever happened. I doubt the National Guard had anything to do with it.
Spoken like a true soldier. Repeat the procedures to absolve you of moral responsability. If that doesn't work, repeat louder
Moral responsibility eh. Your not grasping whats this leading to. Nor how a soldier chain of thought is going to take him/her to. We cannot take sides. Its one or the other.
Here is advocated the shooting of civilians in the case they become too persistent in trying to obtain essential goods, because, in a city where all semblence of law and order has gone, it is defined as illegal. Yes, I cannot understand it.
I'll point out that I SPECIFICALLY mentioned that this was not the ROE for NO. We were only authorized to use deadly force in self defense or the defense of another in danger of death or serious injury. That is a basic escalation of force matrix that generally gets the point across.
The more I think about it, I was generally instructed to secure a property (such as a relief shelter - which were also looted in some instances) by means of a presence patrol or guard duty. Most people didn't feth with a squad of soldiers in full gear. If they did, we were instructed to show our intent - ie to keep them from looting or accessing the area through unauthorized means. If they persisted, we would either gently persuade them to leave or detain them while simultaneously calling the cops. ONLY IF they displayed violent tendencies or an intent to harm us or others would the more violent escalation of force procedures come into effect.
Also, stop claiming that I advocated shooting civilians. It's dishonest.
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Kovnik Obama wrote: Meh, I'll file this under 'why I would never chose a military life, because it would dehumanize me', and be done with it.
Kovnik Obama wrote: Meh, I'll file this under 'why I would never chose a military life, because it would dehumanize me', and be done with it.
It's certainly not for everyone.
I consider myself quite human. It could be the zombie apocalypse, for all I care; you try and take my stuff without permission, and I have the means of stopping you from doing so? I'm using them.
Apparently, according to Shuma, private property laws should cease to exist the minute a disaster strikes. By your own admission, you can't find a source. National Guard soldiers had rules of engagement in NO/LA. Typically simplified as show, shout, shove, shoot.
Which don't work in a helicopter.
Helicopters weren't armed in Katrina. No one brought a M240H to a disaster zone.
The men in the helicopters weren't unarmed.
there's a big difference between an M9 and an M240H. As a Blackhawk piot who works with over a hundred people who helped deliver supplies, fly rescue flights, and was on the ground within 24 hours of Katrina passing though (basically as soonas the weather was clear enough to get there) people were not shooting from helicopters to the ground. People were however, shooting AT helicopter FROM the ground.
Yeah, I mentioned that one two pages back. That stuff was all over the news. As a blackhawk pilot who worked with over 100 people to deliver supplies, did you do anything about looting? Did you take part in the effort to disarm people in their own property?
I was unclear. I was an engineer at the time so i was working dozers and backhoes and stuff like that. I am NOW a blackhawk pilot and most of my company was at Katrina. Standing ROE as far as I remember it, (7 years, 3 deployments and about 6000 different ROEs later) was that we were to protect private and public property from looting but that we were not to enter any premises that was occupied without permission. IIRC, most of the disarming was done by local police. We did not possess police powers. We were tasked with protecting infrastructure. Protecting the food/water in Walmart was to ensure that when we DID seize it (and we did in some instances), it was fairly and equitably distributed and that the owners were properly compensated. Most looting was ignored by all accounts for the first 24-48 hours as I've been told. People were too busy saving lives. It was only after sufficient forces and supplies were in place that we really started reestablishing the rule of law.
The fething thing was that every agency had their own ROE. I'm not saying that nothing like shooting looters ever happened. I doubt the National Guard had anything to do with it.
Since I can't find a reported incident concerning looting (I can find incidents with public disarmament, but that was never really core to my arguments) of it I'll side with you and change my stance on the issue concerning the quality of work that the NatGuard put in. I still find their stated official mission in regards to looting to be an unhelpful and possibly dangerous one considering the on site circumstances, but as I said from the outset I think the response to Katrina was an organizational failure by a lot of different organizations. I don't really think it's on the shoulders of soldiers or police on the ground.
This will get you in trouble. Thought maybe you should ask the soldiers where a Service TOC is located to recieve the basic essential? Mind you. We cannot give you water or food from ourselves. Nor will we let you loot the store. That puts us in danger and you in danger.
"Help me I'm dying from dehydration"
"No"
"Can I get some water out of the store behind you?"
"No"
The national guard!
Same applies to the above. We are protecting the people.
No, you're protecting peoples things. If you were protecting people you'd land the chopper and help get the soon to be rotting food out of the store and into peoples hands.
Again. Do you have any instances on vid of people being shot while getting water????"
Show your presence/Show that you are armed.
Shout that you have to stop whatever it may be that you are doing
Shove or some other form of non-lethal behavior such as detain, warning shot (although we no longer really do warning shots), aim your weapon etc...
Shoot - self explanatory.
Spoken like a true soldier. Repeat the procedures to absolve you of moral responsability. If that doesn't work, repeat louder.
And when they start looting houses and people open up with shotguns, what then?
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Kovnik Obama wrote: Meh, I'll file this under 'why I would never chose a military life, because it would dehumanize me', and be done with it.
Or "would I would go in restore order, and provide needed supplies to people stranded." Gotcha.
And when they start looting houses and people open up with shotguns, what then?
I often forget that the majority of Dakka lives in trigger-happy country. Last time we had a major disaster up here, the ice storm of 98, people banded togheter and shared stuff. Odd, right?
And when they start looting houses and people open up with shotguns, what then?
I often forget that the majority of Dakka lives in trigger-happy country. Last time we had a major disaster up here, the ice storm of 98, people banded togheter and shared stuff. Odd, right?
inb4, COMMUNISTS!!!
Same for Houston in Ike and Alicia, the gun capital of the Holy Terra.
And when they start looting houses and people open up with shotguns, what then?
I often forget that the majority of Dakka lives in trigger-happy country. Last time we had a major disaster up here, the ice storm of 98, people banded togheter and shared stuff. Odd, right?
inb4, COMMUNISTS!!!
Heck, even us crazy Okies did that.
During the last big Ice Storm/Blizzard people were getting stranded in the streets while trying to make it home. We ended up with interactive maps where people uploaded where they were stranded and other people posted their homes on the map so that people who got stuck could bunker down with them.
d-usa wrote: During the last big Ice Storm/Blizzard people were getting stranded in the streets while trying to make it home. We ended up with interactive maps where people uploaded where they were stranded and other people posted their homes on the map so that people who got stuck could bunker down with them.
That is mighty cool.
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Amaya wrote: That sounds like a typical friendly small town reaction though. I can't imagine it would work well in an urban environment.
Montreal isn't exactly 'friendly small town'. But then it's not New York either.
Still, 2 days ago I got to see 4 cops tackling down a drunken dude with a machete trying to pick up fights in the middle of the street. Didn't see that in the 700 peeps village I grew up in.
Still, 2 days ago I got to see 4 cops tackling down a drunken dude with a machete trying to pick up fights in the middle of the street. Didn't see that in the 700 peeps village I grew up in.
Hopefully not near the stripper clubs you ccoonnnvvviieennttllyyyy live close by.....
Amaya wrote: That sounds like a typical friendly small town reaction though. I can't imagine it would work well in an urban environment.
Oklahoma City greater metropolitan area. 8th largest city by land area in the United States, largest city by land area in the United States if you don't include consolidated city-counties. We rank 31st in the United States for largest cities by population.
None of that includes the suburbs that were also involved in this effort which bump our population and area even higher.
We are far from your typical small town .
A nice summary of our mindset that I found while doing a quick search:
The Oklahoma Standard has been defined as a new level of caring. It was first publicly noted when some members of the media observed that citizens in Oklahoma ran toward the Murrah Building immediately after the bombing rather than away from the building. When a need for blood was broadcast, it had to be followed by an advisory to stay home, because more people lined up than were needed. When an announcement was made that work boots were needed at the site, workers pulled up and took off their boots and left them. First responders from out of town found that they could not go to a restaurant and pay for their own meals. Either the restaurant owner would refuse their money or another diner had already covered the ticket. The legend of the “Oklahoma Dollar” is based upon a first responder commenting that he was leaving Oklahoma with the same dollar he had when he arrived because, during his entire stay in Oklahoma, he had been unable to spend that dollar.
A standard of individual response was set that exceeded any that had been experienced before. Why? No one knows, but it left two lasting legacies. It would be expected at all future disasters. This is why looting in the wake of a disaster is so abhorrent. The circumstances created by massive trauma require helping one another, not preying on one another. The Oklahoma Standard established a challenge for the people of Oklahoma to never lower the baseline. It is why the people of Oklahoma must continue to reach out to help others after a disaster and why they feel driven to bring hope from the rubble of other disasters.
Still, 2 days ago I got to see 4 cops tackling down a drunken dude with a machete trying to pick up fights in the middle of the street. Didn't see that in the 700 peeps village I grew up in.
Hopefully not near the stripper clubs you ccoonnnvvviieennttllyyyy live close by.....
That honestly made me chuckle. And it's bordellos, not strip clubs (although there's one about 15 minutes away, but it's trashy beyond hope. Strippers should retire before they hit 45, if you ask me.
The machete dude seriously scared the gak out of me. I wasn't aware at all of what was happening, so I walked up to like 20 feet away from him before I realised he was waving off a machete at officers. If you ask me he's lucky they just didn't shot him down.
When I was a young fella I had something of a thing for Ellen Barkin, after Sea of Love. Not much surprise that she's barking mad, any shock I might have had that hot girl were frequently crazy disappeared with Sharon Stone in about 1996. Or from talking to pretty girls in real life. I can't remember which of those things happened first.
And here I thought that just the (R) are crazy... Thanks Frazzle...
TL;DR: There's whackos everywhere....
Yeah, there's whackos everywhere, and they're pretty common in both liberal and conservative circles. The difference is that the whackos in the Republican party in the last couple of decades have actually started taking up positions of leadership, and that's a big problem.
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Ma55ter_fett wrote: I think he may have confused you for a card carrying republican frazz....
It's an easy mistake to make. I mean, when a guy posts a string of Republican press releases, one after the next, and spouts a stream of conservative talking points in threads, well then it's easy to assume he might just be a Republican.
I stand by my earlier assertion that the vast majority of "Libertarians" minted since 2008 are simply your typical conservative Republicans-in-hiding, waiting for the W stink to wear off their brand so they can reclaim it. Proof: all these "small government libertarians" virtually always strongly believe in using the power of government to curtail abortion.
Also, I can't imagine almost anyone has spared a thought for Ellen Barkin in 20 years, prior to this thread. Sometimes you can find the derp just laying around, sometimes you have to go mining for it, but the one essential truth in the OT is "The derp must flow".
herself. 
My parent's cat went missing a few days ago and they're afraid she's dead. Some 
And it's bordellos, not strip clubs (although there's one about 15 minutes away, but it's trashy beyond hope. Strippers should retire before they hit 45, if you ask me.