okay, this might seem to be a little heretical for fellow IoM players, but I have been thinking and I must know:

why fight?

humanity is slowly sinking into a cesspool of Xenos, heretics and infighting that is mostly it's fault. it seems that whatever a person does it feeds some dark god a sliver more of power. fighting gives power to khorne, death gives power to nurgle, lust and human desires feeds sleneesh, and any change is part of tseenech's plan (multiple misspellings I know.)

but what about the lighter side of the spectrum? love and the hunt for perfection doesn't always devolve into lust and violence. What about happy marriages? what about striving for being good in things but learning no one can be perfect?

what about hope? Not so much you decide to change everything, but not to give into despair. Is the pursuit of helping people and trying to make at least one world safe evil? is the idea that even the humblest human lifetime can help millions of people evil?

What about fighting for innocents and dieing a righteous death? is the Marine killing khorne beserkers to stop them from hurting orphans still giving power to khorne?

other threads say that souls just get eaten as soon as the person dies, so whats the point in fighting?

these are things I would really like to know and seek opinions on.again, sorry for the spelling mistakes.

Because you get to drive cool tanks and cool planes like valkyries and shoot bolters and sh1t.
It's like totally grimdark man

Because if you don't fight, your species will go extinct.

Seriously, what better reason is there?


Mankind faces extinction in the face of its foes. You must fight to survive.

well, whats survival worth in the Grimdark universe of 40k? most of the worlds there are are hive worlds, where conditions are miserable, cramped and most of the populase work in hazordous refugee camps. what little money they have seems to go to the tithes the imperium makes people pay (I know why they need it but still)

show me at least some examples of how life there is worth fighting over

Life, such as it is, is still better then the alternative.

Because it's mandatory for roughly 10% of a planet's population annually should they not want a visit from the Inquisition or whatever. Then if they don't, as a guardsmen, they'd probably get executed. As for the PDF... well...

But not all worlds are complete crap like hive worlds, there are the richer worlds, the agri worlds and worlds in sectors like the Ultramar sector which are relatively peaceful. Not to mention they are fed incorrect information as the truth would otherwise dissuade them. If the Imperial Infantryman's Uplifting Primer is to be believed the Lasgun is one of the strongest weapons in existence, Orks are cowardly and will run from gun fire and gaunts have stubby little claws which somewhat struggle to penetrate the superior flak armour.

 Tiger9gamer wrote:
well, whats survival worth in the Grimdark universe of 40k? most of the worlds there are are hive worlds, where conditions are miserable, cramped and most of the populase work in hazordous refugee camps. what little money they have seems to go to the tithes the imperium makes people pay (I know why they need it but still)

show me at least some examples of how life there is worth fighting over

Because evil space fungi, homicidal robots and legions of hell itself will eat your children, your loved ones and just about anything on your home world, or some deranged person will set up a cult and sacrifice you all to the god of war perhaps? And as others have pointed out there is no alternative to fight. only death and destruction of your species. And just about anything is better than those alternatives

 Tiger9gamer wrote:
okay, this might seem to be a little heretical for fellow IoM players, but I have been thinking and I must know:

why fight?

Yes its heretical. Tons of heretical lies ....

There is no reason to falter. What is won if we don't fight?

So why not!

Tiger9gamer wrote:well, whats survival worth in the Grimdark universe of 40k? most of the worlds there are are hive worlds, where conditions are miserable, cramped and most of the populase work in hazordous refugee camps.

An important thing to keep in mind: People generally simply do not know how much better it could be. Just look at our own real world - we have the resources and the knowledge to create a utopia, yet what do we do?

And yes, as has already been mentioned, the alternative is extinction of the human species. The Imperium, as oppressive as it is, sees itself as Mankind's only hope for survival.

Lastly, the vast majority of Imperial citizens are following some version of the Imperial faith and thus believe that their soul will join the Emperor in death if they behave like good little minions in life. That's just an in-universe reason for people to fight, but one that most of them may consider as even more important than the eventual fate of their species.

hmmm, never looked at it in that light. I was more depressed at the fact that there was almost nothing to gain. guess survival is a good motivator for this.

what about I wrote about hope, death and such?

Your initial post would be excellent propganada by Xenos or Traitors

Whilst the main fluff of the rulebook, codexes and such must concentrate on the war adn the war machinces, the novels have the ability to examine more why and how the varied defenders of the Imperium are fighting:

1) To surivive
2) To preserve those you love/care from death or fates worth than death
3) Faith - As Lynata says many of those in the Imperium truely believe in the divinity of the Emperor and Faith is a source of comfort in the dark times. Many will be taught that not only does the Emperor protect but if you die in His name you may well stand at his side in some form of afterlife.... even if this is not the case (and who knows) - who can prove otherwise.
4) Escape from a dark depressing life on a hiveworld
5) indocotrination

oh, huh. thanks for clearing this up for me. is there any examples or novels for these reasons?

All of these things exist in 40k, they are just seen in a different light as people think about stuff differently than we do today.

Most of the Imperial populace isn't even aware what kind of trouble their Imperium is in, knowing nothing about the threat of the Necron or the approaching tendrils of vast swarms of Tyranids. They just live to see another day, being largely concerned with their own little lives, their immediate family (even where it's a street gang or a feral tribe rather than a normal family), and/or the honour of their regiment/homeworld. Also, the Imperial propaganda is powerful, instilling a sense of righteousness and purpose in the masses, with influential and charismatic Preachers tending to the spiritual needs of the people. There are indeed examples where the efforts of just a single human born of humble origins can help millions of people, and the Ecclesiarchy in particular tends to loudly proclaim them as Saints, examples for everyone to aspire to as well as symbols of hope.

As an example how all of this may skew perception, here's an excerpt from the designer notes about one of the SoB codices:
"By the standards of the 21st century, these girls are fanatical zealots, but in the context of the 41st millennium, they're paragons of virtue whose every action is a manifestation of the divine will of the God-Emperor of Mankind."

It's all a matter of perspective, you see.

Many people will live abysmal lives in poor conditions (think Industrial Revolution-style), but I think that only few will actually give in to despair, their religion and a sense of duty keeping them at work, not to mention that these people too may have a family to feed, which means additional obligations and perhaps even pressure, but also a sense of unity. Also, some worlds will actually have somewhat more gentle conditions. Agriworlds in particular will likely have people working hard, but at the same time knowing a good night's rest as well as rural communal life complete with marriages and harvest feasts.

What about fighting for innocents and dieing a righteous death? is the Marine killing khorne beserkers to stop them from hurting orphans still giving power to khorne?

I think this depends entirely on how the Marine feels when he kills the Berserker. Chaos Gods feed on emotions, and when you have a Flesh Tearer ripping the Berserker apart with hands and teeth, Khorne will be just as happy as if when the Berserker had won. An Ultramarine calmly dispatching his foe with a bolt round to the head, on the other hand, will net Khorne not much in terms of rage or any other interesting feeling ... unless said Ultramarine grows to become rather prideful and arrogant as he racks up kills, thus becoming more influential for heretical promises of greatness.

other threads say that souls just get eaten as soon as the person dies, so whats the point in fighting?

Well, in general people don't know this.
We, the fans, are not even sure of this ourselves. We know that the Chaos Gods like to eat souls, but we also know that this can be prevented (see Eldar Soulstones), and the myth about the Emperor safeguarding his followers might have an inkling of truth. Unless you are one of those that believe the Emperor is a Warp God himself and "eats" his followers just like the Chaos Gods eat theirs. See the ritual of Soulbinding. Grimdark, grimdark ...

Tiger9gamer wrote:is there any examples or novels for these reasons?

What exactly are you looking for?

The answer: For the Emperor. Nothing more, nothing less

quick answer - most of them

(Caveat -not everyone like the novels versions of the Imperium or people within it)

Helsreach and Titanicus - a huge variety of people fighitng the good fight for all the reasons above - from Faith and hate driven Astartes, Faith driven Sisters, Civilians trying to survive in the Hell of war, lovers tying to keep tehemslves and each other alive....even some fighting for Glory/Sense of Duty - plus some "because they are there and no else is"

Imperial Glory - dark stuff but again the Guard Regiment is fighting to create a home for itself and its followers by destroying the Xenos.

Gaunts Ghost - mixture of fighitng to preserve youself and loved ones / trusted companions, some because they enjoy it and some for Faith and Duty

Cain novels - as above

All of the above are (IMO) highly recomended to try and find out why the average Imperial will fight and die .................

Oh wow, didnt think of it that way.

thanks for those who responded and helped me enjoy this setting more!


for the emperor!

edit: thanks for the books too!

For the Emperor.

Not being eaten by Tyranids is a good thing.
Not being raped to death by the Dark Eldar is another.
Not being raped to death by Chaos.
Not being killed for gaks and giggles by Orks.


You really don't have to look much further than "The alternative is being eaten, or raped, to death". I mean, life in the Imperium is not that great on some planets. But crappy life is still better than death. And better than rape.

1. The 41st millennium may sometimes seem similar to the trials of the modern world, but it is also nothing like ours. People think differently in the 41st millennium than they do in this one.

I don't think that indoctrination is being stressed enough either, normal people don't understand what a crappy life they actually have in the 41st millennium. By the power of the all powerful church and state of the Imperium, its citizen's are told from day one that their greatest achievement in life is to die for the Emperor and provide an edifice for their martyring comrades to pile up upon until not only are they so completely buried in death, but their enemies are utterly crushed beneath the sacrifice that is required every single hour of every single day to maintain even their severely low quality of life. That is also a generalization, but it is largely true from an overwhelming majority of the Imperium, and in many cases are even more severe.

However, there are also a few cases in which some worlds are set apart. Paradise worlds come to mind, and people have an uncanny habit of finding new reasons to fight for something. As long as it's sanctioned by the Inquisition, the people of the Imperium can fight for pretty much any personal reason they can attribute to the Emperor, for once it becomes solely personal or communal, it's no longer loyal to the Imperial cause and can be considered a route to heresy.

There is no reason to continue fighting for the carriongod. Embrace the freedom that only the primordial truth can offer and become so much more than you could ever hope to be.
Your soul, such a pitiful, small and ultimately useless thing, is a small price to pay for the chance of true imortality, isn't it?

Fight or die in a most gruesome way. Work to better your race, to buy it survival for even just a few more decades.

Perhaps in that era it is better and more logical to just lay down and die, but human spirit and all that


Von Chogg

also forgot to add

Revenge - another powerful motive to fight the enemy.

This again? Simple - fighting fate is reason enough. I really hate fatalists - prophecies and visions can come true as much as they like, but destiny is forged by our own hands alone. Even when I say that 'our destiny calls to us', its not because its inevitable, but we still have to work for it.

What if your fate is to spend your life fighting against fate?

gg Tadashi no re

- - - - - -

There is no point in fighting for the Imperium. Join the Greater Good and experience what it's like to belong to an administration that genuinely cares about its individual citizens.

BlaxicanX wrote:
What if your fate is to spend your life fighting against fate?

My point is if one does not like their 'fate', then they don't have to accept it. Just make your own 'fate'. Its what Humans do best, and something the failed elder races could never do.

There is no point in fighting for the Imperium. Join the Greater Good and experience what it's like to belong to an administration that genuinely cares about its individual citizens.

Traitor...*aims plasma pistol and fires*

FOR THE EMPEROR!

 DiRTWaL wrote:
FOR THE EMPEROR!

*raises glass filled with the Jack Daniel's whiskey (or its 40k equivalent)*
FOR THE EMPEROR AND ALL MANKIND!!!

 Tadashi wrote:

Traitor...*aims plasma pistol and fires*

And is burned by the backblast of the emergency venting as his primitive human made plasma weapon goes *woof* in his hands.


A decent Tau or Eldar made plasma weapon wouldn't do this. Damn cheap knock-offs.

 chromedog wrote:
And is burned by the backblast of the emergency venting as his primitive human made plasma weapon goes *woof* in his hands.


A decent Tau or Eldar made plasma weapon wouldn't do this. Damn cheap knock-offs.

Tadashi opens up with his arm-mounted Assault Cannon, with his fellow Terminators opening up with their Storm Bolters. Missiles streak overhead from Whirlwinds and Devastators, while Predator Annihilators open up with their Lascannons. "Come on, pointy-ears! Show your pretty faces and fight like men! COWARDS!!!"

 Tadashi wrote:

BlaxicanX wrote:
What if your fate is to spend your life fighting against fate?

My point is if one does not like their 'fate', then they don't have to accept it. Just make your own 'fate'. Its what Humans do best, and something the failed elder races could never do.

There is no point in fighting for the Imperium. Join the Greater Good and experience what it's like to belong to an administration that genuinely cares about its individual citizens.

Traitor...*aims plasma pistol and fires*

That's funny because 90% of humanity's population is oppressed on a daily basis and trapped in a cycle of enslavement by a regime that doesn't care about any of them.

BlaxicanX wrote:
That's funny because 90% of humanity's population is oppressed on a daily basis and trapped in a cycle of enslavement by a regime that doesn't care about any of them.

The individual is meaningless in 40k...don't you know that yet? Great achievements require great sacrifice, and the Imperium must, and is willing, to perform said sacrifices.

If the individual is meaningless than how can you say that humans fight their fate more than anyone else? They don't. Their devotion to the Emperor has enslaved them to fate more than any other race in the Galaxy. The Imperium, more than anyone else in the mythos, symbolizes a lack of free-will.

Furthermore you're incorrect about the individual being meaningless in 40K. The individual is only meaningless to The Imperium. The actual quote is "To be a man in such times is to be one amongst untold billions". To be a man, not a person.

To the more sensible societies, such as the Tau and the Eldar, every individual life under their protection is important.

BlaxicanX wrote:
If the individual is meaningless than how can you say that humans fight their fate more than anyone else? They don't. Their devotion to the Emperor has enslaved them to fate more than any other race in the Galaxy.

I don't recall the Emperor ever obeying fate, seeing fate is the province of Tzeentch and one of the pre-Fall Eldar Gods. In fact, everything the old man ever did, and even the current Imperium in its abandonment of the Emperor's dream, has been in defiance of the fate prepared for Mankind by Tzeentch and foreseen by the Farseers.

‘Nonsense. The universe cares not a whit for our actions or us. Our fate is wrought by our own hands.’

Yup, that's what the old man said.

The Emperor is a skeleton sitting on a life-support chair after getting backhanded by Horus- something the Eldar foresaw and tried to warn the Imperium about.

What are you talking about?

As well, you're contradicting yourself again. If the Emperor believed that the Galaxy cares not for what you do and you write your own destiny, then that would mean there is no such thing as fate... which directly flies into the face of your belief that the Imperium "fights fate". It can't fight something that doesn't exist.

lol @ your attempt to steer the convorsation toward the Emperor and away from the fact that the Imperium enslaves its citizens and prevents them from changing their fate.

Death to the lapdogs of the Corpse-Emperor!

BlaxicanX wrote:



As well, you're contradicting yourself again. If the Emperor believed that the Galaxy cares not for what you do and you write your own destiny, then that would mean there is no such thing as fate... which directly flies into the face of your belief that the Imperium "fights fate". It can't fight something that doesn't exist.

Of course...seeing as the Imperial Truth was based on the denial of superstitious matters like 'gods' or 'fate'.

lol @ your attempt to steer the convorsation toward the Emperor and away from the fact that the Imperium enslaves its citizens and prevents them from changing their fate.

Because MANIFEST DESTINY can only materialize under the Imperium and His Imperial Majesty.

 Eiríkr wrote:
Death to the lapdogs of the Corpse-Emperor!

Well, at least you're true to your dakka ranking...unlike certain individuals who spout warped treason even though their dakka rank marks them as Imperials.

Tadashi wrote:

Of course...seeing as the Imperial Truth was based on the denial of superstitious matters like 'gods' or 'fate'.

Look how that turned out ...

 Tadashi wrote:

 Eiríkr wrote:
Death to the lapdogs of the Corpse-Emperor!

Well, at least you're true to your dakka ranking...unlike certain individuals who spout warped treason even though their dakka rank marks them as Imperials.

I loled when I saw that BlaxicanX was an ogren. Pressing keys is as much as a problem as any arguments he could make. (no offence intended). I was going to say something about the life on a tau sept world being quite nice but, I didn't want to just in the boat of one liners.

As said above, most people in the IOM are forced to join the guard. 10% must be sent away or something like that to serve. Its part of the duties of a IOM world to provide tax and men. Most people wont know jack about chaos, xenos or what that huge black cloud is descending form the sky without joining the guards, or if super lucky/unlucky, getting into a space marines chapter.

 Pilau Rice wrote:

Tadashi wrote:

Of course...seeing as the Imperial Truth was based on the denial of superstitious matters like 'gods' or 'fate'.

Look how that turned out ...

Point taken...but the Imperium still denies 'fate', though in a different manner than what the old man originally intended.

 Ledabot wrote:
Most people wont know jack about chaos, xenos or what that huge black cloud is descending form the sky without joining the guards, or if super lucky/unlucky, getting into a space marines chapter.

Ignorance is safety...people are happier that way, protected in a cage.

Denying something doesn't make it any less real.

This is the year 40k. I believe that orks prove you wrong daily.

 Pilau Rice wrote:
Denying something doesn't make it any less real.

Probably not...but the Imperium has stood defiantly for ten thousand years - and just might take the galaxy with it. Meh, personally, I would rather see it burn in the hands of the Powers than it grow in the hands of non-Humans.

Well, at least they will run out of juice. No mortals to feed them, the dark powers might just weaken enough for a second round at life.

 Ledabot wrote:
Well, at least they will run out of juice. No mortals to feed them, the dark powers might just weaken enough for a second round at life.

From what? The galaxy would be in ashes.

The imperium fight because that is all it knows. It has been in constant warfare for thousands of years. If human chooses to not fight, the would probably be executed for treason anyway.

Warfare is what keeps the imperium together. If they do not fight, they will be swiftly overun by orks, nids, chaos etc..

And even if there was not a constant threat of xenos attack, people would realise how gakky their life is and rebel. The xenos attacking the imperium are doing as much to keep it together as the astartes and the guard.

Funny I still belive in IT- because I don't percive Chaos Gods as Gods, only emotional abominations or creatures in another plane of existance,very strong and old - true,but still they don't have free will and are bound to most basic human instincts....
which makes them less omnipotent in a way....

 reddwarf54 wrote:


And even if there was not a constant threat of xenos attack, people would realise how gakky their life is and rebel. The xenos attacking the imperium are doing as much to keep it together as the astartes and the guard.

You forget one thing: religion. As much as I hate the Ecclesiarchy, I have to be thankful to them - they guarantee the loyalty of majority of His Imperial Majesty's subjects.

Because gw and all of their followers like a stagnant grimdark universe. Yes they're idiots, i know. I wish for story progression that isn't grimdark.

Brother Thomas wrote:
Because gw and all of their followers like a stagnant grimdark universe. Yes they're idiots, i know. I wish for story progression that isn't grimdark.

No, never.....grimdark should stay grimdark -I guarantee you 90% members on this forum are also liking grimdark (I've seen that when I posted 30k vs 40k thread)...so you are in a wrong department....

 DarthMarko wrote:

Brother Thomas wrote:
Because gw and all of their followers like a stagnant grimdark universe. Yes they're idiots, i know. I wish for story progression that isn't grimdark.

No, never.....grimdark should stay grimdark -I guarantee you 90% members on this forum are also liking grimdark (I've seen that when I posted 30k vs 40k thread)...so you are in a wrong department....

Maybe not uber grimdark...I prefer mine in between Ciaphas Cain dark comedy and the uber grimdark

 Tadashi wrote:

 DarthMarko wrote:

Brother Thomas wrote:
Because gw and all of their followers like a stagnant grimdark universe. Yes they're idiots, i know. I wish for story progression that isn't grimdark.

No, never.....grimdark should stay grimdark -I guarantee you 90% members on this forum are also liking grimdark (I've seen that when I posted 30k vs 40k thread)...so you are in a wrong department....

Maybe not uber grimdark...I prefer mine in between Ciaphas Cain dark comedy and the uber grimdark

Then ADB is not for you my friend.....Every book I've read from him is Grimdark of the grimdark, and I kind of like it ......

ADB?

 Ledabot wrote:
This is the year 40k. I believe that orks prove you wrong daily.

Who's this aimed at? Orks believe that they never lose, but that's not always the case as they do lose, it's a matter of perspective.

 Tadashi wrote:

 Pilau Rice wrote:
Denying something doesn't make it any less real.

Probably not...but the Imperium has stood defiantly for ten thousand years - and just might take the galaxy with it. Meh, personally, I would rather see it burn in the hands of the Powers than it grow in the hands of non-Humans.

Some Space marines deny the Emperors Godhood yet others do not, so who's right?. The Ecclesiarchy and the vast majority of the Imperium would say the non believers are wrong.

And it's all the Imperium can do regardless of fate or Gods, it's beset from within and without, if it didn't stand defiant it would be washed away.

So you wouldn't want Space Marines in control of the Imperium in its last days then

 Pilau Rice wrote:



So you wouldn't want Space Marines in control of the Imperium in its last days then

Space Marines are still Human, despite their superhuman talents. If the choice after the fall of the Imperium is to live and prosper under Xenos or submit to the Powers, then frak the Xenos, and join the Black Legion.

LET THE GALAXY BURN!!!

 Tadashi wrote:
ADB?

Aaron Dembski-Bowden.

 Tadashi wrote:


Space Marines are still Human]

Sure they are

 Pilau Rice wrote:

 Tadashi wrote:


Space Marines are still Human]

Sure they are

The Great Crusade designation was Legio Astartes transhumans...the current designation is Adeptus Astartes superhumans...AFAIK. And in any case, seeing as the old man was the one who had them created, allegations of inhumanity from rabid zealots doesn't really mean a thing.

Short Answer: Because
Long Answer: Because if you don't fight your world will die a horrible death sooner or later. It might get ripped apart by Orks, your children may be hauled off as slaves to the Dark Eldar, it might be consumed by the Tyranids. No matter, you fight on world X so you don't have to fight on your homeworld.

 DarthMarko wrote:

 Tadashi wrote:

 DarthMarko wrote:

Brother Thomas wrote:
Because gw and all of their followers like a stagnant grimdark universe. Yes they're idiots, i know. I wish for story progression that isn't grimdark.

No, never.....grimdark should stay grimdark -I guarantee you 90% members on this forum are also liking grimdark (I've seen that when I posted 30k vs 40k thread)...so you are in a wrong department....

Maybe not uber grimdark...I prefer mine in between Ciaphas Cain dark comedy and the uber grimdark

Then ADB is not for you my friend.....Every book I've read from him is Grimdark of the grimdark, and I kind of like it ......

Helsreach is pretty grimdark and so are the Nightlords novels, especialy if we keep in mind that Talos and his merry band of fools are living in self delusion.

Yes and no - there are beacons of hope in the ADB novels - its the main characters that are so very grim dark - others are living and loving as best they can.

 Tadashi wrote:

 Pilau Rice wrote:

 Tadashi wrote:


Space Marines are still Human]

Sure they are

The Great Crusade designation was Legio Astartes transhumans...the current designation is Adeptus Astartes superhumans...AFAIK. And in any case, seeing as the old man was the one who had them created, allegations of inhumanity from rabid zealots doesn't really mean a thing.

Still not human, they are removed from humanity when the undergo the process to become an Astartes.

And much like the Thunder Warriors, the Astartes were tools created by the Emperor to get a job done, tools that can easily be discarded to allow humanity to guide itself.

 Pilau Rice wrote:


And much like the Thunder Warriors, the Astartes were tools created by the Emperor to get a job done, tools that can easily be discarded to allow humanity to guide itself.

Debatable...seeing as the Primarchs had a special area in the Imperial Palace specifically designed for them. Obviously, the Emperor had other things in mind for the Primarchs, and by extension the Astartes, than merely conquest and then abandonment.

The Imperium keeps fighting for the survival of the human race. And if they don't, their souls will be the eternal playthings of the Ruinous Powers of Chaos.

BlaxicanX wrote:
If [since his existence is transitory and affects no significant population in a vast galaxy] the individual is meaningless than

"then" he can either selfishly take power from the gods and scratch out a name thinly written in blood, or he can give his life selflessly to martyrdom and live eternally in the Emperor.

 Grey Templar wrote:
Because if you don't fight, your species will go extinct.

Seriously, what better reason is there?


Mankind faces extinction in the face of its foes. You must fight to survive.

SURVIVAL.

Mostly because the Imperium makes the best quality greatcoats and gasmasks.

Also hotshot lasgun

No offense but the general populace tends to be filled with idiots. To me, 40k (especially the Imperium) is like George Orwell's 1984 or even Aldous Huxley's A Brave New World. Just feed the populace propaganda targeting pathos and they will follow like mice to poisoned cheese. Just tell people what they want to hear and the rest will fall into place. The few that have the sense to think for themselves tend to be easily singled out and eliminated through an ultimatum of assimilation or death (or worse).

Ignorance is safety after all...and compared to the alternative - Chaos madness, Tau mind control (at least the Imperium's leaders are Humans), becoming puppets for Eldar/Dark Eldar, or just getting killed by Necrons, Tyranids, and Orks, the Imperium is by far a lesser evil. And in its original form - under the Emperor and the Imperial Truth - the Imperium was way nicer than it is now.

 Tadashi wrote:
Ignorance is safety after all...and compared to the alternative - Chaos madness, Tau mind control (at least the Imperium's leaders are Humans), becoming puppets for Eldar/Dark Eldar, or just getting killed by Necrons, Tyranids, and Orks, the Imperium is by far a lesser evil. And in its original form - under the Emperor and the Imperial Truth - the Imperium was way nicer than it is now.

I would take Tau or Chaos over IoM.

 Tadashi wrote:
Ignorance is safety after all...and compared to the alternative - Chaos madness, Tau mind control (at least the Imperium's leaders are Humans), becoming puppets for Eldar/Dark Eldar, or just getting killed by Necrons, Tyranids, and Orks, the Imperium is by far a lesser evil. And in its original form - under the Emperor and the Imperial Truth - the Imperium was way nicer than it is now.

But for something called the truth, it was one big lie.

Fair enough...but this is not the place to discuss the Imperial Truth.

 Tadashi wrote:
Fair enough...but this is not the place to discuss the Imperial Truth.

Then why bring it up? You said that the Imperium was a better place when the Imperial Truth was in effect, how is fighting for a lie better than what the Ecclesiarchy believe in? During the Heresy it is pretty clear that there are still separate religions throughout the Imperium, including the fledgling Cult Imperialis.

At least in current day 40k there is unity, with a singular belief amongst the people of the Imperium, they might have different variations in the way they see the Emperor, but he is the God Emperor in each circumstance.

 Pilau Rice wrote:

 Tadashi wrote:
Fair enough...but this is not the place to discuss the Imperial Truth.

Then why bring it up? You said that the Imperium was a better place when the Imperial Truth was in effect, how is fighting for a lie better than what the Ecclesiarchy believe in? During the Heresy it is pretty clear that there are still separate religions throughout the Imperium, including the fledgling Cult Imperialis.

Just to point out the Imperium was great once and could still be great again.

At least in current day 40k there is unity, with a singular belief amongst the people of the Imperium, they might have different variations in the way they see the Emperor, but he is the God Emperor in each circumstance.

I disagree. The current Imperium is riven by heretical cults and surrounded by malevolent enemies seeking its destruction. But we won't give up that easily either.

 Tadashi wrote:

I disagree. The current Imperium is riven by heretical cults and surrounded by malevolent enemies seeking its destruction. But we won't give up that easily either.

And the cracks were already beginning to show around the time of the Heresy, Istvaan being the prime example.

 Pilau Rice wrote:

 Tadashi wrote:

I disagree. The current Imperium is riven by heretical cults and surrounded by malevolent enemies seeking its destruction. But we won't give up that easily either.

And the cracks were already beginning to show around the time of the Heresy, Istvaan being the prime example.

Despair is for the weak-willed. The strong-willed plow through the opposition and emerge triumphant.

 Bobthehero wrote:
Mostly because the Imperium makes the best quality greatcoats and gasmasks.

Also hotshot lasgun

And Sisters of Battle.

 Tadashi wrote:

 Pilau Rice wrote:

 Tadashi wrote:

I disagree. The current Imperium is riven by heretical cults and surrounded by malevolent enemies seeking its destruction. But we won't give up that easily either.

And the cracks were already beginning to show around the time of the Heresy, Istvaan being the prime example.

Despair is for the weak-willed. The strong-willed plow through the opposition and emerge triumphant.

Praal and the People of Istvaan knew what would become of them, yet they still went ahead and succeeded from the Imperium, that takes balls and an iron will. What balls does the Imperium show by picking on the little guy? Not much, just that they are bullies and that they are afraid of free thinking.

 Pilau Rice wrote:

 Tadashi wrote:

 Pilau Rice wrote:

 Tadashi wrote:

I disagree. The current Imperium is riven by heretical cults and surrounded by malevolent enemies seeking its destruction. But we won't give up that easily either.

And the cracks were already beginning to show around the time of the Heresy, Istvaan being the prime example.

Despair is for the weak-willed. The strong-willed plow through the opposition and emerge triumphant.

Praal and the People of Istvaan knew what would become of them, yet they still went ahead and succeeded from the Imperium, that takes balls and an iron will. What balls does the Imperium show by picking on the little guy? Not much, just that they are bullies and that they are afraid of free thinking.

Or they have more and bigger guns than everyone else. Anyway, ethics and morality are largely meaningless in the grim, dark future. Not to mention the Governor of Istvaan was a monstrous mutant. Even IRL, I consider the possibility of mutants as monstrous. If we are to evolve, it should be by technological means - genetic--engineering/cybernetics/nanotech - and not by random natural selection.

 Tadashi wrote:

Or they have more and bigger guns than everyone else. Anyway, ethics and morality are largely meaningless in the grim, dark future. Not to mention the Governor of Istvaan was a monstrous mutant. Even IRL, I consider the possibility of mutants as monstrous. If we are to evolve, it should be by technological means - genetic--engineering/cybernetics/nanotech - and not by random natural selection.

Praal was not a mutant, if I recall correctly.

Are you an upcoming Cardinal Tang? I think if you really were an Astartes you would be declared Excommunicate Traitoris

 Pilau Rice wrote:


Are you an upcoming Cardinal Tang? I think if you really were an Astartes you would be declared Excommunicate Traitoris

Since when was killing mutants illegal in the Imperium? In fact, killing one would probably not lead to a murder charge, but a public commendation. And even if genetic-engineering and nanotechnology is illegal/heretical in the Imperium, cybernetics are not, and the Mechanicum would probably be welcoming for my pro-cybernetics stance.

Only the Imperium can move the human race onwards. Fighting is the way to protect those you love, the worlds you live on and there is also the fact that it is the right thing to do to fight the scum of the universe.

If all fails, going down fighting is the best way to show true defiance. Life is what you fight for. This is what the Imperium fights for, only they can ensure the survival of the human race.

 unmercifulconker wrote:

If all fails, going down fighting is the best way to show true defiance. Life is what you fight for. This is what the Imperium fights for, only they can ensure the survival of the human race.

To cry out against fate is true strength. Glory to the Imperium and the Immortal Emperor.

 Pilau Rice wrote:

 Tadashi wrote:
Fair enough...but this is not the place to discuss the Imperial Truth.

Then why bring it up? You said that the Imperium was a better place when the Imperial Truth was in effect, how is fighting for a lie better than what the Ecclesiarchy believe in? During the Heresy it is pretty clear that there are still separate religions throughout the Imperium, including the fledgling Cult Imperialis.

At least in current day 40k there is unity, with a singular belief amongst the people of the Imperium, they might have different variations in the way they see the Emperor, but he is the God Emperor in each circumstance.

I thought the Imperial truth was Atheism???

Which is technically true in the 40k verse.?

Technically, yes. The 'gods' aren't gods at all, but energy-based xenos with godlike powers from an alternate dimension. The same with the Emperor - an immortal psyker with godlike powers, but still Human for all that (physically at least - I heard when he takes off that armor, he looked like a tall, middle-eastern, Human male).

 Tadashi wrote:
The same with the Emperor - an immortal psyker with godlike powers, but still Human for all that

The Ecclesiarchy would disagree with you, quite a lot.

 Pilau Rice wrote:

 Tadashi wrote:
The same with the Emperor - an immortal psyker with godlike powers, but still Human for all that

The Ecclesiarchy would disagree with you, quite a lot.

I'm a Space Marine, frak the Ecclesiarchy!

 Tadashi wrote:

 Pilau Rice wrote:

 Tadashi wrote:
The same with the Emperor - an immortal psyker with godlike powers, but still Human for all that

The Ecclesiarchy would disagree with you, quite a lot.

I'm a Space Marine, frak the Ecclesiarchy!

HERESY!

Sorrowdusk wrote:

 Tadashi wrote:

 Pilau Rice wrote:

 Tadashi wrote:
The same with the Emperor - an immortal psyker with godlike powers, but still Human for all that

The Ecclesiarchy would disagree with you, quite a lot.

I'm a Space Marine, frak the Ecclesiarchy!

HERESY!

We serve the Emperor, not mewling maggots.

Hear! Hear! Funny how fanatics think they serve the emperor, now that's a real irony....

 DarthMarko wrote:
Hear! Hear! Funny how fanatics think they serve the emperor, now that's a real irony....

Apparently its a funny story.

 Grey Templar wrote:
Because if you don't fight, your species will go extinct.

Seriously, what better reason is there?


Mankind faces extinction in the face of its foes. You must fight to survive.

This right here. That was the ENTIRE POINT of the Emperor's Great Crusade. If humanity does not go on the offensive it will be destroyed, every human being alive would be killed.

The Imperium is as harsh as it is because it NEEDS to be to survive.


Are you saying humanity should just commit mass suicide?

Things like love and happy marriages and family BBQs actually DO exist in 40K, however there is no point in mentioning that gak in a 40k novel or the fluff.

 Galdos wrote:



Are you saying humanity should just commit mass suicide?

No. They want people to believe in progress and understanding - you know: democracy, freedom, human rights ala Tau Empire/Galactic Republic. BS IMHO.

Things like love and happy marriages and family BBQs actually DO exist in 40K, however there is no point in mentioning that gak in a 40k novel or the fluff.

Of course it does. Just because the codexes and novels don't mention it doesn't mean Humans have stopped being Human. In fact, I believe if we look away from the Imperium's iron fist and into its soul, we'll find Humans just being Human to each other.

this thread has already happened and was entirely pointless

I was just curious

^ oh, in that case, accept my apologies.

The other thread was run by a fellow that could be likened to one of those angry religious guys that stand out in town and scream for people to turn to Christianity.

^ He loved his heresy while it lasted. Damn, that guy was incredibly stubborn and ignorant.

I can relate mostly though, made this thread on a day I was feeling a little down about this hobby and it's grimdark theme, wanting to ask questions I genuinely had.

never wanted to see it spiral like it did though wanted answers, not a propaganda war

^ they fight because they want to survive.

the Space Marines, Grey Knights, Inquisition (I hate to day it), and Sisters of Battle are pretty much the IoMs only hope.

The Guard is riddled with traitors, but can still be effective.

Really though, the Imperium will remain in it's grimdark dying state because of the way GW progresses things. They won't show a future Grand Crusade that will wipe out a ton of xenos and half the galaxy. That is meant for you, the player, to do.

fight because if you doesn't, then you get yourself a great big *BLAM*

 Tiger9gamer wrote:
okay, this might seem to be a little heretical for fellow IoM players, but I have been thinking and I must know:

why fight?

humanity is slowly sinking into a cesspool of Xenos, heretics and infighting that is mostly it's fault. it seems that whatever a person does it feeds some dark god a sliver more of power. fighting gives power to khorne, death gives power to nurgle, lust and human desires feeds sleneesh, and any change is part of tseenech's plan (multiple misspellings I know.)

but what about the lighter side of the spectrum? love and the hunt for perfection doesn't always devolve into lust and violence. What about happy marriages? what about striving for being good in things but learning no one can be perfect?

what about hope? Not so much you decide to change everything, but not to give into despair. Is the pursuit of helping people and trying to make at least one world safe evil? is the idea that even the humblest human lifetime can help millions of people evil?

What about fighting for innocents and dieing a righteous death? is the Marine killing khorne beserkers to stop them from hurting orphans still giving power to khorne?

other threads say that souls just get eaten as soon as the person dies, so whats the point in fighting?

these are things I would really like to know and seek opinions on.again, sorry for the spelling mistakes.

 Tadashi wrote:

 Galdos wrote:



Are you saying humanity should just commit mass suicide?

No. They want people to believe in progress and understanding - you know: democracy, freedom, human rights ala Tau Empire/Galactic Republic. BS IMHO.

Things like love and happy marriages and family BBQs actually DO exist in 40K, however there is no point in mentioning that gak in a 40k novel or the fluff.

Of course it does. Just because the codexes and novels don't mention it doesn't mean Humans have stopped being Human. In fact, I believe if we look away from the Imperium's iron fist and into its soul, we'll find Humans just being Human to each other.

To the first part of your post Tadashi, I dont know what you are talking about. The OP made a post making it sound like he thinks humanity should just give up. Why are they wasting their time fighting? (How it sounds like) My response was the alternative is death. You fight or you die, thats a simple fact of this universe and the entire point of the Imperium of Man, it is for survival. Tau Empire has nothing to do with anything here.


Your second post is dead on though. Humans are still living normal good lives. Thats why they fight, for their love ones and for survival. It just isnt mentioned because there is no point o mentioning it in a codex

 Galdos wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:
Because if you don't fight, your species will go extinct.

Seriously, what better reason is there?


Mankind faces extinction in the face of its foes. You must fight to survive.

This right here. That was the ENTIRE POINT of the Emperor's Great Crusade. If humanity does not go on the offensive it will be destroyed, every human being alive would be killed.

The Imperium is as harsh as it is because it NEEDS to be to survive.


Are you saying humanity should just commit mass suicide?

Things like love and happy marriages and family BBQs actually DO exist in 40K, however there is no point in mentioning that gak in a 40k novel or the fluff.

This excuse is used by almost every powerhungry tyrant. Mankind did just fine before widespread warpstorms destroyed civilisation as it was known at that time and mankind might have
recovered once the warpstorms disolved. Instead the carriongod turned the dominion over all technology to the Mechanicus, an organisation which was known for it's extremely conservative view when
it comes to research and actual science, and created an Imperium which was, from it's very beginning, not built upon cooperation but mercyless exploitation. This aspect of the Imperium
probably does more to further the cause of chaos then the Despoiler and all his legions could ever hope to achive.
The Imperium is it's own worst enemy and mankind's survival is rather doubtful.

This excuse is used by almost every powerhungry tyrant. Mankind did just fine before widespread warpstorms destroyed civilisation as it was known at that time and mankind might have
recovered once the warpstorms disolved. Instead the carriongod turned the dominion over all technology to the Mechanicus, an organisation which was known for it's extremely conservative view when
it comes to research and actual science, and created an Imperium which was, from it's very beginning, not built upon cooperation but mercyless exploitation. This aspect of the Imperium
probably does more to further the cause of chaos then the Despoiler and all his legions could ever hope to achive.
The Imperium is it's own worst enemy and mankind's survival is rather doubtful.

I was goingt o respond to this (like mid paragraph) when i realized you just shouted a massive load of anti-Imperium propaganda and I didnt know how to respond without making it look like I REALLY do believe in the divine Emperor of mankind or something. So feth it, not even worth commenting on lol.

 KingDeath wrote:



Mankind did just fine before widespread warpstorms destroyed civilisation as it was known at that time and mankind might have
recovered once the warpstorms disolved.

Dark AGe of Tech didn't end just because warp storms...

 KingDeath wrote:

Instead the carriongod turned the dominion over all technology to the Mechanicus, an organisation which was known for it's extremely conservative view when it comes to research and actual science,

Somehow, this research and science happened BEFORE the heresy...seems it wasn't this "carriongod", whoever thats is, who put an end to "actual" science.

 KingDeath wrote:

and created an Imperium which was, from it's very beginning, not built upon cooperation but mercyless exploitation.

 KingDeath wrote:

This aspect of the Imperium probably does more to further the cause of chaos then the Despoiler and all his legions could ever hope to achive.

This despoiled one and his so called Legions...did they run away a few times? Maybe its hard to achive anything at a "tactical retreat "..

 KingDeath wrote:

The Imperium is it's own worst enemy and mankind's survival is rather doubtful.

....have no doubt, humans are to essential to the setting.

 Tiger9gamer wrote:
okay, this might seem to be a little heretical for fellow IoM players, but I have been thinking and I must know:

why fight?

Bitches love manly men who do manly things!

 Galdos wrote:


To the first part of your post Tadashi, I dont know what you are talking about. The OP made a post making it sound like he thinks humanity should just give up. Why are they wasting their time fighting? (How it sounds like) My response was the alternative is death. You fight or you die, thats a simple fact of this universe and the entire point of the Imperium of Man, it is for survival. Tau Empire has nothing to do with anything here.


Your second post is dead on though. Humans are still living normal good lives. Thats why they fight, for their love ones and for survival. It just isnt mentioned because there is no point o mentioning it in a codex

I was referring to people who argue the Imperium is a monstrosity/should be destroyed/should be more like the Tau or some 'goody two shoes' civilization...

 Galdos wrote:

This excuse is used by almost every powerhungry tyrant. Mankind did just fine before widespread warpstorms destroyed civilisation as it was known at that time and mankind might have
recovered once the warpstorms disolved. Instead the carriongod turned the dominion over all technology to the Mechanicus, an organisation which was known for it's extremely conservative view when
it comes to research and actual science, and created an Imperium which was, from it's very beginning, not built upon cooperation but mercyless exploitation. This aspect of the Imperium
probably does more to further the cause of chaos then the Despoiler and all his legions could ever hope to achive.
The Imperium is it's own worst enemy and mankind's survival is rather doubtful.

I was goingt o respond to this (like mid paragraph) when i realized you just shouted a massive load of anti-Imperium propaganda and I didnt know how to respond without making it look like I REALLY do believe in the divine Emperor of mankind or something. So feth it, not even worth commenting on lol.

Fishing time, I guess.

 KingDeath wrote:
This excuse is used by almost every powerhungry tyrant.

No one ever said the Emperor wasn't a power-hungry tyrant. In the Last Church short story, he pretty much admitted that his actions are like those tyrants, but unlike those tyrants, his actions are okay because he is right (which is of course, what every other tyrant said ).

Mankind did just fine before widespread warpstorms destroyed civilisation as it was known at that time and mankind might have
recovered once the warpstorms disolved. Instead the carriongod turned the dominion over all technology to the Mechanicus, an organisation which was known for it's extremely conservative view when
it comes to research and actual science

The Mechanicus didn't exist on Mars back in the day, they were a plenty progressive bunch to match Terra's own scientists. In fact, they were responsible for sending out the initial colony ships during mankind's first exploration of the stars. Then there was that whole cataclysmic civil war between mankind and it's AI creations that left many worlds barren and much of the technology lost. This led right into the Age of Strife, where difficult/impossible interstellar travel was the least of your problems, as psykers and mutants and possessed started tearing the place apart. For example, Terra had a period called the Psy Wars, where a few individuals were born so psychically powerful, that they could mind-control legions of followers. These psychic warlords basically ran the planet into the ground until a "mysterious hero appeared who was immune to their powers and was able to rally the resistance and end their reigns" or something along those lines. Mars went all Mad Max, with ragtag groups of survivors struggling against radiation sickness and gangs of ravenous mutants. Whatever was left, had to be preserved, and the mistakes of the past not repeated. Every HH novel so far indicates that the Emperor's reign spurred a new age of progress as all of mankind once again were unified in purpose.

... and created an Imperium which was, from it's very beginning, not built upon cooperation but mercyless exploitation. This aspect of the Imperium
probably does more to further the cause of chaos then the Despoiler and all his legions could ever hope to achive.
The Imperium is it's own worst enemy and mankind's survival is rather doubtful.

It's actually based on both, in that you have a choice. Will you cooperate willingly, and perhaps find some value in a life of service? Or will you refuse to accept your stark reality, and thus have to be mercilessly exploited? The scale of the Imperium and the time-frame of the Emperor's plan is far too large for any one individual. If creations such as the Thunder Warriors or even the Primarchs were expendable, how important can a single short-lived human be?

That's why any reasonable person would convert to Chaos worship. After all, if you're going to be refusing reality, you may as well accept the wonderous world of unreality. Which brings me to the OP's question. Why fight? Why live? You live for the hope that you may gain notice of the Ruinous Powers, and they bless you with apotheosis. Sure, it probably won't work out, but it still beats the 0600-2100 daily shift at the Manufactorum.

 Grey Templar wrote:

Things like love and happy marriages and family BBQs actually DO exist in 40K, however there is no point in mentioning that gak in a 40k novel or the fluff.

To be fair many of the (IMO) better novels do have romance (often doomed but its there), families and home life - eg:

Gaunts Ghosts - lovers and familes trying to survive the ongoing war
Cain novels - less extreme but plenty of romance involving him and others
Imperial Glory - its all about the Guard Regiment trying to fight for a homeworld for them and their families.
Desert Warriors - central love story
Helsreach - This is all about why people fight - so many different reasons and again including lovers ( some doomed some not)
Even the Night Lords novels have a central romance going on......

etc

Its much less prevelant (except as a contrast or to show their lack of humanity) in books about the Astartes but thats logical - if often does not end well but thats 40K

We had a thread like this a few weeks ago. It fell before a Lockhammer-wielding mod.

was referring to people who argue the Imperium is a monstrosity/should be destroyed/should be more like the Tau or some 'goody two shoes' civilization...

Ha okay, that explains why I was confused. I missed that you were replying to someone else.


Fishing time it is

Okay, now that I've made my obligatory joke about the Lockhammer, I will answer your question.

In the fluff, people fight for the Imperium due to the psycho-conditioning most Imperial citizens experience from birth. They genuinely believe their cause is just.

In real life... Well, as someone who takes this game very seriously, this may sound odd, but I picked the Imperium because it sounded cool. I would not support it IRL.

Well, that and it's the only thing that has ever made me feel proud to be human. I'd rather be an Eldar, but still.

 DOOMBREAD wrote:


In real life... Well, as someone who takes this game very seriously, this may sound odd, but I picked the Imperium because it sounded cool. I would not support it IRL.

I support it because its AWESOME, and I would still support the Imperium if they suddenly dropped out of the sky and annexed us...because they reward those who support them. If I survive the war of pacification (no way in hell the whole world will just bow to the Imperium), I might just become planetary nobility, or even a Rogue Trader.

 Tadashi wrote:

 DOOMBREAD wrote:


In real life... Well, as someone who takes this game very seriously, this may sound odd, but I picked the Imperium because it sounded cool. I would not support it IRL.

I support it because its AWESOME, and I would still support the Imperium if they suddenly dropped out of the sky and annexed us...because they reward those who support them. If I survive the war of pacification (no way in hell the whole world will just bow to the Imperium), I might just become planetary nobility, or even a Rogue Trader.

Well, I may outwardly support it (y'know, just to survive) but I would not believe what they did was just.

 DOOMBREAD wrote:

 Tadashi wrote:

 DOOMBREAD wrote:


In real life... Well, as someone who takes this game very seriously, this may sound odd, but I picked the Imperium because it sounded cool. I would not support it IRL.

I support it because its AWESOME, and I would still support the Imperium if they suddenly dropped out of the sky and annexed us...because they reward those who support them. If I survive the war of pacification (no way in hell the whole world will just bow to the Imperium), I might just become planetary nobility, or even a Rogue Trader.

Well, I may outwardly support it (y'know, just to survive) but I would not believe what they did was just.

It doesn't matter whether you believe them to be just or not...if you submit, they will accept/reward you.

It's like Nazis - they also belived that they are right :-)

and btw they should start fighting demons with love...

 DarthMarko wrote:


and btw they should start fighting demons with love...

That's not gonna end well - I'm not really of any mind to spend eternity getting tortured/raped in the Circles of Slaanesh.

 Tadashi wrote:

 DarthMarko wrote:


and btw they should start fighting demons with love...

That's not gonna end well - I'm not really of any mind to spend eternity getting tortured/raped in the Circles of Slaanesh.

So in 40k getting tortured/raped = love :-)

chicks man they fight for chicks...... In caiphas cain novels during R&R troopers are known to relax with joygirls, after the fighting is over of course.... just a little more incentive to win

this is how id look at it a great all mighty deamon comes befor you and says " im going to kill every one and every thing dear too you and you cant stop me" do you let him proceed or do you fix you bayonet and stab him in his alkalies tendon.

me id laugh and fight if you have to die better on your feet then sniveling on the ground.

and as far as empowering the dark gods well looks like theirs no way around it just do what you can don't make any pointless strife or war.