Q: Can Feel No Pain rolls be made against unsaved Wounds inflicted by weapons that have the Instant Death special rule? (p35)
A: No.

From p35... Note that FNP rolls cannot be made against unsaved wounds that inflict Instant Death..

If a wound is unsaved and is inflicted via a Nemesis force weapon at a higher initiative step then definitely unsaved wounds at lower steps can't roll for FNP. I think it also applies before any activation since the FAQ simply states FNP doesn't work versus weapons that inflict Instant Death.

Would a model with FNP get to roll for it prior to activation of a force weapon that inflicted the wound?

Dunno, but the same question applies to boneswords, in a way.
Would love to see what those with better grasp on the RAW say.

For simultaneous effects I think the player whose turn it is decides which is applied first...'player priority' is what I remember but no book on hand.

 Dozer Blades wrote:
I think it also applies before any activation since the FAQ simply states FNP doesn't work versus weapons that inflict Instant Death.

Which is irrelevant, because before activation, Nemesis Force Weapons definitely are not "weapons that have the Instant Death special rule", and in fact, you could argue they aren't weapons that have the instant death special rule after activating them, they are just weapons that happen to be inflicting wounds that cause Instant Death.

All of which amounts to the fact that, the FAQ hasn't changed anything, you will still be able to attempt FNP until they are activated, and whether FNP or the Activation Roll comes first will still be determined by the player whose turn it currently is.

It has the "Instant Death" rule. It just has a qualifier. As it has the "Instant Death" rule you can not use FNP against said weapon even if it fails to activate it.

 megatrons2nd wrote:
It has the "Instant Death" rule. It just has a qualifier. As it has the "Instant Death" rule you can not use FNP against said weapon even if it fails to activate it.

Not true. You cannot point to a rules entry for a Force weapon or Bonesword that has the ID special rule.

RAW congrats, you just got around force weapons. RAI, do you guys really think they wanted FNP to circumvent one form of ID but not another? Come on guys.

 Vindicare-Obsession wrote:
RAW congrats, you just got around force weapons. RAI, do you guys really think they wanted FNP to circumvent one form of ID but not another? Come on guys.

I think they wanted FNP to circumvent weapons that can at some times inflict Instant Death but are not at the current time inflicting Instant Death, yes.

The rule itself already says this. The contention is weapons that sometimes do. As the question is answered in an FAQ, I think it means as long as the weapon has the rule you can't use FNP.

 megatrons2nd wrote:
The rule itself already says this. The contention is weapons that sometimes do. As the question is answered in an FAQ, I think it means as long as the weapon has the rule you can't use FNP.

But Force does not have the ID rule.

Unless Activated.

 megatrons2nd wrote:
The rule itself already says this. The contention is weapons that sometimes do. As the question is answered in an FAQ, I think it means as long as the weapon has the rule you can't use FNP.

yes, but those weapons don't have the Instant Death rule. I would say they don't have it at all by RAW, but even ignoring that stance, they DEFINITELY don't have it before activating.

 megatrons2nd wrote:
It has the "Instant Death" rule. It just has a qualifier. As it has the "Instant Death" rule you can not use FNP against said weapon even if it fails to activate it.

^ This.

Thank you. It is quite simple really.

 Dozer Blades wrote:

 megatrons2nd wrote:
It has the "Instant Death" rule. It just has a qualifier. As it has the "Instant Death" rule you can not use FNP against said weapon even if it fails to activate it.

^ This.

Thank you. It is quite simple really.

Then it will be no problem for you to show us where in the weapons profile it says it has the Instant Death rule, please do go ahead and show us.

Check the rules for Force in the rule book. I forget the page number... Sorry.

 Dozer Blades wrote:
Check the rules for Force in the rule book. I forget the page number... Sorry.

Right, the ones that say "If the test is failed, or the bearer has no Warp Charge points to spend, then there is no additional effect." clearly indicating that there are situations where the Force rule does NOT equate to having the Instant Death rule?

C:GK -"if the test is passed, all wounds caused by the unit's Nemesis force weapons that phase inflict instant death."

It then goes on to state that if there are different initiative steps that each step is bound by the initial test for activation, which for our argument is irrelevant.

Per the wording 'that phase' the instant death effect would retroactively apply to the initial wound and negate the ability to take the FNP roll, regardless of simultaneous initiative.

Also, if the halberd didnt do the job the sword or one of the hammers in the unit would.

Psilence wrote:
Per the wording 'that phase' the instant death effect would retroactively apply to the initial wound and negate the ability to take the FNP roll, regardless of simultaneous initiative.

Except that no allowance is made to go back and change prior results in the NFW rules, and if FNP is made it's treated as though the wound never existed so there's no issue with this idea of retroactive problems, you just don't handle anything retroactively unless the rules tell you to.

I don't follow you. The NFW has the ID rule... It's simple.

This thread is just silly. Of course a foce weapon has the ID special rule. It always has the ID special rule, even if that rule fails some time. There are weapons that require you to take a toughness test or something of the like every time you take an unsaved wound or suffer instant death. Would you say that they too dont ignore FNP? Is it the timeing of the ID roll that is hanging you up? If so, I can play fair and roll my NFW activation at the beginning of the assault phase. This really isint all that difficult to understand.

 Vindicare-Obsession wrote:
This thread is just silly. Of course a foce weapon has the ID special rule. It always has the ID special rule, even if that rule fails some time. There are weapons that require you to take a toughness test or something of the like every time you take an unsaved wound or suffer instant death. Would you say that they too dont ignore FNP? Is it the timeing of the ID roll that is hanging you up? If so, I can play fair and roll my NFW activation at the beginning of the assault phase. This really isint all that difficult to understand.

No, it doesn't have the ID rule. Show me the stat line with the ID rule please.
And you cannot "play fair" and roll activation at any time other than when you're allowed - that's called cheating.

Check the entry entitled Force in the special rues section... All force weapons have the ID special rule.

 Dozer Blades wrote:
Check the entry entitled Force in the special rues section... All force weapons have the ID special rule.

ONLY when activated. The rest of the time they defiantly don't.
Potentially having Instant Death doesn't cut it deny FNP.

So essentially we are saying that anything that requires a test at the end of the phase cannot deny FNP?

I hope you guys enjoy getting beat down by TO's. Even though there is no RAW ground here, this argument is nothing but rediculous cheesing. Great job guys. You just un-nerfed FNP. Why dont we just give everyone Reanimation protocols while we are at it.

 Dozer Blades wrote:
Check the entry entitled Force in the special rues section... All force weapons have the ID special rule.

I don't think I agree with this. I think the right way to state this is that, "All Force Weapons have the Force USR. The Force USR has access to the Instant Death special rule, but does not automatically make use of it." The only time this access is granted is when the Force USR is successfully activated. If for some reason that activation does not occur then the Instant Death rule is never realized. Hence, FNP is possible.

The Force USR specifically changes the nature of the unsaved wounds inflicted to cause Instant Death, thus negating FNP. Again, that only happens though if you are successful in activating it (Force).

-Yad

Kossaro Khan doesn't have ID unless he rolls a 6 to hit(iirc). This does not mean that all of his hits deny FNP just that his qualified ID attacks cause it.

An attack only inflicts ID if it has S double the toughness of the model or it has the ID rule. Force weapons don't have the rule until the weapon is activated. So no retroactive application but for the rest of the GK squad they have an active force weapon which does cause ID.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Vindicare-Obsession wrote:
So essentially we are saying that anything that requires a test at the end of the phase cannot deny FNP?

I hope you guys enjoy getting beat down by TO's. Even though there is no RAW ground here, this argument is nothing but rediculous cheesing. Great job guys. You just un-nerfed FNP. Why dont we just give everyone Reanimation protocols while we are at it.

A force weapon needs to wound you, if you don't get wounded why should you get to move forward along the process towards ID?

 Vindicare-Obsession wrote:
So essentially we are saying that anything that requires a test at the end of the phase cannot deny FNP?

I hope you guys enjoy getting beat down by TO's. Even though there is no RAW ground here, this argument is nothing but rediculous cheesing. Great job guys. You just un-nerfed FNP. Why dont we just give everyone Reanimation protocols while we are at it.

You act like this is a new thing.
And no, no TO has beaten me down yet. Sorry to burst your bubble, but not everyone agrees with you and since your stance has "no RAW ground" here...

I dont know about you but my GK's with brotherhood banner will ALWAYS be inflicting ID if I have the warp charge available to them. Short of you turning off their force weapons themselves you will not be stopping the ID factor. The fact that you are going to use FNP to get around something that takes away FNP would not be permitted at any tournament I ran, nor at my gaming store.

When does the force weapon activate?
Have the wounds and saves process been completed for the models that strikes first in your GK squad?

If the weapon is not causing ID when it wounds then why should FNP not be applied?

 Vindicare-Obsession wrote:
I dont know about you but my GK's with brotherhood banner will ALWAYS be inflicting ID if I have the warp charge available to them. Short of you turning off their force weapons themselves you will not be stopping the ID factor. The fact that you are going to use FNP to get around something that takes away FNP would not be permitted at any tournament I ran, nor at my gaming store.

And you're free to house rule whatever you want. If you don't cause an unsaved wound, you can't ID. FNP causes a wound to be saved.
If you don't see the potential for that interaction then I'm sorry - but it's there.


Oh, and if I Precision Shot that banner out of there you can have fun rolling.

 Vindicare-Obsession wrote:
I dont know about you but my GK's with brotherhood banner will ALWAYS be inflicting ID if I have the warp charge available to them. Short of you turning off their force weapons themselves you will not be stopping the ID factor. The fact that you are going to use FNP to get around something that takes away FNP would not be permitted at any tournament I ran, nor at my gaming store.

Ok, so for those (and subsequent) wounds that are caused after you activate the Force USR you are then inflicting Instant Death. Prior to that activation, there is no Instant Death. It simply doesn't exist. If that's not the understanding you are working under then I'd be curious to know what your reasoning is behind it.

It's entirely reasonable to have a scenario where, in a unit equipped with Force Weapons, one model has an unwieldy Force Weapon and is the only one to successfully activate Force. In that scenario, only the unsaved wound(s) he caused would be changed to cause Instant Death. Any unsaved wounds previously inflicted do not have the Instant Death rule.

-Yad

I am saying you guys are in the right RAW. I'm not debating that. I'm also saying that I personally belive this is rules exploitation and it was never meant for something as dependable as a force weapon (especially one that auto passes the test) to not deny FNP. Is it fully within the rules? Yes. Should you feel awful for doing it? At the very least.

I am under the impression that there is no reason you cany roll the psychic test for the FW before you strike blows if it really is an issue.

How do you figure there is no RAW ground? There is like 3 weapons that have the "instant death" rule that don't have an activation trigger. So you take and add a trigger and suddenly it doesn't have the rule? If it says "causes instant death" or "suffers from instant death", it sure sounds like it has the instant death rule to me. As it has the rule you can't FNP it at all. Now if it says "removed as a casualty regardless of wounds" or something similar, it does not have the rule and may have FNP taken.

As to the go back and alter a previous rules effect, why can FNP do it and activating a force weapon can't? Death Reaper says you can make a failed test from the hexrifle's removed from play ability no longer apply and put the model back in play, so why can't a phase that has activated a force weapon do the opposite? It is the same initiative step, right? One rule is suddenly removing the ability to use another isn't it? Same effect, right?

 Vindicare-Obsession wrote:
I am saying you guys are in the right RAW. I'm not debating that. I'm also saying that I personally belive this is rules exploitation and it was never meant for something as dependable as a force weapon (especially one that auto passes the test) to not deny FNP. Is it fully within the rules? Yes. Should you feel awful for doing it? At the very least.

I should feel awful for following the rules?
That's like me saying you should feel awful for using Force weapons against my Carnifexes and Hive Tyrants.

I am under the impression that there is no reason you cany roll the psychic test for the FW before you strike blows if it really is an issue.

Besides the fact that it's completely against the rules to do that, sure.

Like I said, house rule it however you want.

Unfortunately no. It is an issue in timing. You roll the test at the end of the phase while the saves are taken at the time of the wounds. Test comes after wounds and saves are taken so it isint assured to cause ID at the time of the wounds. I think its cheesy as hell but they do have the RAW.

 megatrons2nd wrote:
How do you figure there is no RAW ground? There is like 3 weapons that have the "instant death" rule that don't have an activation trigger. So you take and add a trigger and suddenly it doesn't have the rule? If it says "causes instant death" or "suffers from instant death", it sure sounds like it has the instant death rule to me.

No, it has the Bonesword rule, or the Force rule, or something similar. It doesn't have the Instant Death rule.

As it has the rule you can't FNP it at all. Now if it says "removed as a casualty regardless of wounds" or something similar, it does not have the rule and may have FNP taken.

Not true. If the wound causes ID you can't FNP it. A Force weapon doesn't cause ID unless you spend a charge/pass the test. If it's not causing ID I can FNP it.

As to the go back and alter a previous rules effect, why can FNP do it and activating a force weapon can't? Death Reaper says you can make a failed test from the hexrifle's removed from play ability no longer apply and put the model back in play, so why can't a phase that has activated a force weapon do the opposite? It is the same initiative step, right? One rule is suddenly removing the ability to use another isn't it? Same effect, right?

FNP explicitly says the wound is treated as saved, which requires you to go back in time essentially. Activating a Force weapon or whatever doesn't.

 liturgies of blood wrote:
When does the force weapon activate?
Have the wounds and saves process been completed for the models that strikes first in your GK squad?

If the weapon is not causing ID when it wounds then why should FNP not be applied?

Yes, you suffered an unsaved wound, because if you didn't you couldn't use FNP to begin with. FNP is not part of the "save" process and is a special rule, just like "Force".

It is taken at the same time as saves. Agian, its a stupid loophole but its there.

rigeld2 wrote:

 Vindicare-Obsession wrote:
I am saying you guys are in the right RAW. I'm not debating that. I'm also saying that I personally belive this is rules exploitation and it was never meant for something as dependable as a force weapon (especially one that auto passes the test) to not deny FNP. Is it fully within the rules? Yes. Should you feel awful for doing it? At the very least.

I should feel awful for following the rules?
That's like me saying you should feel awful for using Force weapons against my Carnifexes and Hive Tyrants.

Yes you should. They just want to give you a hug...with their teeth

-Yad

rigeld2 wrote:

I should feel awful for following the rules?
That's like me saying you should feel awful for using Force weapons against my Carnifexes and Hive Tyrants.

No. Its more akin to me re-picking targets with deathmarks because I deploy them via deepstrike with a veil of darkness.

 megatrons2nd wrote:

 liturgies of blood wrote:
When does the force weapon activate?
Have the wounds and saves process been completed for the models that strikes first in your GK squad?

If the weapon is not causing ID when it wounds then why should FNP not be applied?

Yes, you suffered an unsaved wound, because if you didn't you couldn't use FNP to begin with. FNP is not part of the "save" process and is a special rule, just like "Force".

Good job pity it is irrelevant. You make FNP before you test for force so if you are not inflicting and ID at the time of inflicting a wound then you cannot inflict ID at that stage.

 Vindicare-Obsession wrote:
Unfortunately no. It is an issue in timing. You roll the test at the end of the phase while the saves are taken at the time of the wounds. Test comes after wounds and saves are taken so it isint assured to cause ID at the time of the wounds. I think its cheesy as hell but they do have the RAW.

This timing is why Bone Swords still work against FNP. (Not sure about Force Weapons). Bone Swords have an interupt in thier rule. The model takes a wound and as soon as that happens you have to test to see if the ID effect happens (before FNP). If they fail they are dead. If they don't then they get FNP.

 Vindicare-Obsession wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

I should feel awful for following the rules?
That's like me saying you should feel awful for using Force weapons against my Carnifexes and Hive Tyrants.

No. Its more akin to me re-picking targets with deathmarks because I deploy them via deepstrike with a veil of darkness.

That one's a stretch.
There's no stretch with regards to FNP vs non-ID wounds.

Not a stretch at all. When I deploy them I pick a target. Since I am deploying them via deepstrike I get a new target. See how anonying exploiting words is?

I'm glad I don't have to play you guys. It is explicitly disallowed from being used in 2 locations, yet somehow you seem to manage to make it usable. Note, Force says Immediately, so it is as the wound is caused. So why should FNP be allowed?

You need to be lawyers so you can get more criminals out to walk the streets as some flux in wording makes a law irrelevant to your defendant.

And with that I'm done with this pointless roller coaster conversation, as it will go nowhere, ever, as the rules obviously can be interpreted to make it best for you no matter which way you think it should be.

 Vindicare-Obsession wrote:
Not a stretch at all. When I deploy them I pick a target. Since I am deploying them via deepstrike I get a new target. See how anonying exploiting words is?

No, it's really not annoying to me. It's fun - and it's why I spend most of my time in YMDC.

And what words are being exploited here? I'm not sure why you're so vehemently protesting that it's exploiting the rules to take FNP saves against Force weapons.

Because instead of insisting FNP can be taken against something that may or may not have the ID special rule, we have the option of altering when in the phase you make a roll. It would be a much simpler solve to the: yes you can,no you cant, debate. It may not be RAW, it may not be canon, but it is fair.

House rule or not, the RAW on this is kinda rediculous. Nurgle daemons no longer has anyting to fear from GK's/Psykers, as well as Sisters of Repentia, or anything else with FNP. It seems wrong that just because of a timing issue, something that dosent allow FNP suddenly does.

 Vindicare-Obsession wrote:
Because instead of insisting FNP can be taken against something that may or may not have the ID special rule, we have the option of altering when in the phase you make a roll. It would be a much simpler solve to the: yes you can,no you cant, debate. It may not be RAW, it may not be canon, but it is fair.

We have a way to solve it already. When two things must happen at the same time, the player whose turn it is decides the order. On my turn I take FNP rolls before the Force weapons.
And that's if you don't subscribe to the idea that FNP must come before all other "unsaved wound" abilities.

House rule or not, the RAW on this is kinda rediculous. Nurgle daemons no longer has anyting to fear from GK's/Psykers, as well as Sisters of Repentia, or anything else with FNP. It seems wrong that just because of a timing issue, something that dosent allow FNP suddenly does.

Yes because FNP is an instant save with no chance of failure.

So is a GK force weapon when you have a BB. You are right of course, but I dont belive its fair, and I wouldnt impliment it when I used FNP models. I would hope my opponent would extend the same curtosy

 Vindicare-Obsession wrote:
So is a GK force weapon when you have a BB. You are right of course, but I dont belive its fair, and I wouldnt impliment it when I used FNP models. I would hope my opponent would extend the same curtosy

I'm not sure what you're referring to with your first sentence.

And I don't believe it's fair when a Force weapon IDs my 200-300+ point MC. I would hope you extend that courtesy to me. See how silly that sounds?

Thats not using loopholes in rules wording. And the BB (Brotherhood banner) auto passes my psychic test to activate my force weapons. I am guaranteed to ID you.

 Vindicare-Obsession wrote:
Thats not using loopholes in rules wording. And the BB (Brotherhood banner) auto passes my psychic test to activate my force weapons. I am guaranteed to ID you.

After you cause an unsaved wound.

Yes. After I cause an unsaved wound. I have already stated you are right about this. I am also making it known that I dont belive it is fair or that it was intentional.

RAW you are right.

How I would play it? Never, no matter what side of the coin I'm on.

 Vindicare-Obsession wrote:
Yes. After I cause an unsaved wound. I have already stated you are right about this. I am also making it known that I dont belive it is fair or that it was intentional.

RAW you are right.

How I would play it? Never, no matter what side of the coin I'm on.

Right, and I'm trying to understand why you're saying that.
I don't understand why you don't think it's intentional. They intentionally made FNP treat wounds as saved.
They intentionally did not give certain weapons the ID rule - rather they have a way to cause Instant Death.
You are never absolutely guaranteed to ID me. If you miss with all your attacks, you won't ID. If you fail to wound with all your attacks, you won't ID. If you Hammerhand, you won't ID.

There's no twisting of words to exploit something or ignoring obvious intent.

There are plenty of attacks that are X2 toughness that could miss. Guaranteed to hit was never part of FNP. Something that has a capacity to cause ID like a force weapon should ignore FNP. If I fail to ID you then by all means, go back and roll your 5++. However, I belive something that dependably causes ID should not have FNP available to it. I do not belive it was GW intent to allow FNP to circumvent Force Weapons. I cant make it any simpler than that. If you dont understand it then I'm sorry, I can't help you.

 megatrons2nd wrote:
I'm glad I don't have to play you guys. It is explicitly disallowed from being used in 2 locations, yet somehow you seem to manage to make it usable. Note, Force says Immediately, so it is as the wound is caused. So why should FNP be allowed?

You need to be lawyers so you can get more criminals out to walk the streets as some flux in wording makes a law irrelevant to your defendant.

And with that I'm done with this pointless roller coaster conversation, as it will go nowhere, ever, as the rules obviously can be interpreted to make it best for you no matter which way you think it should be.

This. The rules states weapons with ID negate FNP... there are no caveats.

If Im understanding this correctly
Feel no pain is in fact not save but a USR that lets to attempt to ignore an unsaved wound, while force weapons after causing an unsaved may let you attempt to (auto or not) cause ID.

The question becomes then which comes first as it sounds like both occur directly after an unsaved wound.

Sounds to me that they both occur simultaneously and there for should be at the priority of the active player.

My 2 cents

 Dozer Blades wrote:

 megatrons2nd wrote:
I'm glad I don't have to play you guys. It is explicitly disallowed from being used in 2 locations, yet somehow you seem to manage to make it usable. Note, Force says Immediately, so it is as the wound is caused. So why should FNP be allowed?

You need to be lawyers so you can get more criminals out to walk the streets as some flux in wording makes a law irrelevant to your defendant.

And with that I'm done with this pointless roller coaster conversation, as it will go nowhere, ever, as the rules obviously can be interpreted to make it best for you no matter which way you think it should be.

This. The rules states weapons with ID negate FNP... there are no caveats.

This problem comes up all the time...when does 'immediately' happen? As in where are we told the timing of these rules?

Does 'immediatly' mean before moving to the next step or before anything else in the current step?

 Dozer Blades wrote:
This. The rules states weapons with ID negate FNP... there are no caveats.

True, but the Force rule is very clear that unless activated there is no Instant Death. Potentially causing Instant Death is not enough to deny FNP.

No it's like I said there are no caveats but you are trying to apply one.

So do we deny FNP to all force weapons?
To Force weapons that cannot be activated that turn?

 hisdudeness wrote:

 Dozer Blades wrote:

 megatrons2nd wrote:
I'm glad I don't have to play you guys. It is explicitly disallowed from being used in 2 locations, yet somehow you seem to manage to make it usable. Note, Force says Immediately, so it is as the wound is caused. So why should FNP be allowed?

You need to be lawyers so you can get more criminals out to walk the streets as some flux in wording makes a law irrelevant to your defendant.

And with that I'm done with this pointless roller coaster conversation, as it will go nowhere, ever, as the rules obviously can be interpreted to make it best for you no matter which way you think it should be.

This. The rules states weapons with ID negate FNP... there are no caveats.

This problem comes up all the time...when does 'immediately' happen? As in where are we told the timing of these rules?

Does 'immediatly' mean before moving to the next step or before anything else in the current step?

Lets say you take an unsaved wound, then you take FNP. Did the force weapon rule happen immediately? No it didn't, we waited for FNP so the rule for force weapon has been broken.

Just my thoughts on it.

 Dozer Blades wrote:
This. The rules states weapons with ID negate FNP... there are no caveats.

Right,weapons with ID negate FNP.

Does a force weapon, that has not been activated, have the ID rule?

 Vindicare-Obsession wrote:

Something that has a capacity to cause ID like a force weapon should ignore FNP.

Force weapons only actually cause ID if the wielder has used a warp charge point and passed the test.

Otherwise they are just weapons with an AP value.

Okay, I'll rephrase, If a force weapon has a warp charge and the player promises real nice to use it to activate the FW then you should give them the benefit of the doubt.

Seriously?

Also it shouldnt be a problem to go back and re-do the FNP test if the FW is not passed.

Seriously.

Force only has the ID rule when activated.

When not activated you can take FNP.

 Vindicare-Obsession wrote:
Okay, I'll rephrase, If a force weapon has a warp charge and the player promises real nice to use it to activate the FW then you should give them the benefit of the doubt.

But why?
Just because? You just think it should be that way?
That's all I'm getting from you. And that's a horrible way to have any kind of balance discussion.

I was more referring to the fact that you made me spell it out like I was a 6 year old.

 DeathReaper wrote:
Seriously.

Force only has the ID rule when activated.

When not activated you can take FNP.

You are playing word games... doesn't make your argument any more valid.

Thats all this entire argument is based on. Word games has made up their entire argument. The only problem is that their word games is more valid than any reasoning we can make. Again, they are right. We dont have to like it, and it dosent have to be fair. God knows GW has screwed its own rules before.

I do not think THEY are right.

I wish they werent, but since there is no "Definate" way to cause ID with a FW before they get FNP they win. Because the FW dosent cause ID 100% of the time, they win. Its a stupid numbers game and we dont have the numbers.

OK. I have just spent WAY more time then I should reading and re-reading the Bone sword rules. My take on it now is this:

1) Bone Swords always casue ID. They do not require an activation. They are always on (unlike Force Weapons).
2) To avoid the effect of ID the model that takes the wound needs to pass a LD check on either 2D6 or 3D6.

So FNP does not work against Bone Swords as they always casue ID. They just have a save to avoid being killed.

I guess that is the big diffrence between Force Weapons and Bone Swords. With Force Weapons you have to roll to activate the ID (The model using the weapon rolls). With Bone Swords you have to roll to save against the ID (the model being hit has to roll).

All that matters is whether the weapon has the rule or not. There are no caveats... so yes it applies to bone swords as well.

Boneswords do not cause ID all the time. (Only on a failed LD test do they cause ID).

Force weapons do not cause ID all the time. (Only after spending a warp charge point and passing a Psychic test do they cause ID).

Edit in response to Dozer Blades: Force weapons do not have the ID rule when not activated, but they have the ID rule when activated. So the Force rule has a caveat within itself. (Same with Boneswords).

The FAQ does say they have to have it all the time - just that they have it. You are reading way too much into it in my opinion.

But that is just it. They do not have the ID rule.

The weapon only has the rule after a Psychic test is passed. until then, the weapon does not have the rule.

Therefore Force weapons do not have the ID rule, unless activated.

 DeathReaper wrote:
Boneswords do not cause ID all the time. (Only on a failed LD test do they cause ID).

I hit you with a bone sword. Do you die? Only if you fail your LD check. Why are you making the test? TO AVOID THE ID EFFECT.

If I do not have to activate it, it is on.
Do you have to activate a powerfist? No.
If you are T4 and get hit with a powerfist do you die? Well if you have an Invun you have to check to see if you save it. If you fail the check you suffer ID.

So by your argument models with Invuln saves get to roll FNP against powerfists becasue the Invuln save keeps it from having the ID rule.

 Gloomfang wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
Boneswords do not cause ID all the time. (Only on a failed LD test do they cause ID).

I hit you with a bone sword. Do you die? Only if you fail your LD check. Why are you making the test? TO AVOID THE ID EFFECT.

Boneswords do not have the ID rule, unless the LD test is failed, then they have the ID rule.

 Gloomfang wrote:

If I do not have to activate it, it is on.
Do you have to activate a powerfist? No.
If you are T4 and get hit with a powerfist do you die? Well if you have an Invun you have to check to see if you save it. If you fail the check you suffer ID.

So by your argument models with Invuln saves get to roll FNP against powerfists becasue the Invuln save keeps it from having the ID rule.

Not at all. Any Str double Tough will always cause ID. if the Invuln is failed.

Boneswords conditionally cause ID.

Force conditionally causes ID.

If the conditions are met, then they cause ID, otherwise they do not.

See the difference?

Perhaps I'm missing something, but my understanding is that FNP is not a saving throw, it's a special rule that allows the model to ignore a wound it has suffered. Force weapons are activated once an unsaved wound is inflicted. So as soon as the target fails its invulnerable save (if it has one), the model with a force weapon makes a psychic test. If the the psychic test is passed, the model does not roll for FNP, as the wound/weapon inflicts ID; if the test is failed, then the target does benefit from FNP.

 DeathReaper wrote:

 Gloomfang wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
Boneswords do not cause ID all the time. (Only on a failed LD test do they cause ID).

I hit you with a bone sword. Do you die? Only if you fail your LD check. Why are you making the test? TO AVOID THE ID EFFECT.

Boneswords do not have the ID rule, unless the LD test is failed, then they have the ID rule.

 Gloomfang wrote:

If I do not have to activate it, it is on.
Do you have to activate a powerfist? No.
If you are T4 and get hit with a powerfist do you die? Well if you have an Invun you have to check to see if you save it. If you fail the check you suffer ID.

So by your argument models with Invuln saves get to roll FNP against powerfists becasue the Invuln save keeps it from having the ID rule.

Not at all. Any Str double Tough will always cause ID. if the Invuln is failed.

Boneswords conditionally cause ID.

Force conditionally causes ID.

If the conditions are met, then they cause ID, otherwise they do not.

See the difference?

Powerfists and Meltaguns also conditionally cause Instant Death. The condition being that their strength is double a models toughness. All weapons follow this. In truth your only argument is the timing of what comes first. Is instant death "On" before you are allowed to take roll for Feel no Pain.

RatLord wrote:

 hisdudeness wrote:

 Dozer Blades wrote:

 megatrons2nd wrote:
I'm glad I don't have to play you guys. It is explicitly disallowed from being used in 2 locations, yet somehow you seem to manage to make it usable. Note, Force says Immediately, so it is as the wound is caused. So why should FNP be allowed?

You need to be lawyers so you can get more criminals out to walk the streets as some flux in wording makes a law irrelevant to your defendant.

And with that I'm done with this pointless roller coaster conversation, as it will go nowhere, ever, as the rules obviously can be interpreted to make it best for you no matter which way you think it should be.

This. The rules states weapons with ID negate FNP... there are no caveats.

This problem comes up all the time...when does 'immediately' happen? As in where are we told the timing of these rules?

Does 'immediatly' mean before moving to the next step or before anything else in the current step?

Lets say you take an unsaved wound, then you take FNP. Did the force weapon rule happen immediately? No it didn't, we waited for FNP so the rule for force weapon has been broken.

Just my thoughts on it.

First point, again show us where the timing of ‘immediately’ is spelled out in the rules. I can just as easily say that it means “before moving to the next step” and be just as correct as “before all other actions in the current step”. Seriously, we’ve hashed this out in so many threads to the point it is not a valid argument.

Second point, read the FNP rules. Does it say the weapon has to cause ID or does the Wound have to cause ID? I’m pretty sure it says the Wound needs to cause ID (Hint: it does). A weapon that has a condition to it inflicting ID wounds and fails to meet that condition does not produce a wound that causes ID.

 DeathReaper wrote:

Boneswords conditionally cause ID.

Force conditionally causes ID.

If the conditions are met, then they cause ID, otherwise they do not.

See the difference?

I see the diffrence, but you are seeing a diffrent diffrence.

We are agreeing on Force Weapons. They do not casue ID until they are activated. Thier ID is conditional on being activated.

What we are disagreeing on is a fundimental question of game mechanics.

A model gets hit with a set of dual Bone Swords. It has to pass a leadership test on 3D6 or die.

You are saying that failing that check activates the ID power of the Bone Swords.

I am saying that passing that check prevents the ID power of the Bone Swords from killing the model.

I can not think of any wargear or weapons that give an ability to an opponents weapon in the manner you are discribing. I can think of a lot that require a save like I am discussing. If you can think of any please let me know.

Offhand I'm thinking of the Eldar wraithguard, on a to wound roll of a 6 They cause ID IIRC.

However Force Weapons, and Bone Swords do not cause ID, they may cause ID. That being said RAW wise I'd be allowed to take my FNP.

If a psyker inflicts one or more unsaved wounds with a force weapon, he can immediately choose to activate it by expending a arp charge and taking a psychic test. IF THEIR TEST IS FAILED, OR THE BEARER HAS NO WARP CHARGE POINTS TO SPEND, THEN THERE IS NO ADDITIONAL EFFECT. page 37 brb.

If the test is passed all unsaved wounds inflicted by a force weapon that turn have the instant death special rule.

The key word here is unsaved wounds... UNSAVED...
Saves would have to be tried and failed, in order to be unsaved, which would then allow the force weapon to be activated and used on them. SO though it pains me top say this Drunkspleen is probably right. GRRR

Boneswords and force weapons are a poor analogue as one you have to pass an LD check to survive and the other your opponent has to pass and LD check to destroy you.

I think the spirit of the rules could be seen to be broken but this is not a RAI forum, it's RAW and most of us agree on the RAW position.

 Gloomfang wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

Boneswords conditionally cause ID.

Force conditionally causes ID.

If the conditions are met, then they cause ID, otherwise they do not.

See the difference?

I see the diffrence, but you are seeing a diffrent diffrence.

We are agreeing on Force Weapons. They do not casue ID until they are activated. Thier ID is conditional on being activated.

What we are disagreeing on is a fundimental question of game mechanics.

A model gets hit with a set of dual Bone Swords. It has to pass a leadership test on 3D6 or die.

You are saying that failing that check activates the ID power of the Bone Swords.

I am saying that passing that check prevents the ID power of the Bone Swords from killing the model.

I can not think of any wargear or weapons that give an ability to an opponents weapon in the manner you are discribing. I can think of a lot that require a save like I am discussing. If you can think of any please let me know.

What are you basing this bonesword idea on? I'm not seeing anything that comes close to support this claim.

 hisdudeness wrote:

What are you basing this bonesword idea on? I'm not seeing anything that comes close to support this claim.

Tyrnid Codex.
"In addition, if a model suffers one or more unsaved wounds in close combat from a Tyranid with a bonesword, it must immediately pass a Leadership test or suffer ID"

It is not pass to activate. It is pass to live.

I don't think those words mean what you think they mean.

I see "pass LD or suffer ID". Which is a condition to the wound inflicting ID...just like force weapons.

I see no place where we are told that Boneswords have the ID rule, only a place where we are told that wounds inflicted by the bonesword inflict ID wounds on a failed LD test.

I would see your point (but still say you were incorrect) if the bonesword rules gave the equiped model ID that was negated with a successful LD test. It doesn't matter if the model/weapon has the ID rule if the ID rule can be removed from the wound.

yes on an UNSAVED wound. So saves have been tried and failed thats where the fnp kicks in and then the bonesword or force kicks in.

easy peasy


Automatically Appended Next Post:
OH snap

FNP BONE SWORDS AND FORCE ALL activate after an unsaved wound. Which goes first.? That should be the real argument. Assaulting players choice?

Controlling player's choice I'd say.

The rulebook has a paragraph on this very situation which is something like player turn decides who gets to choose when you have an issue along the lines of multiple rules or powers activating at the same time.

matt442 wrote:
Powerfists and Meltaguns also conditionally cause Instant Death. The condition being that their strength is double a models toughness. All weapons follow this. In truth your only argument is the timing of what comes first. Is instant death "On" before
you are allowed to take roll for Feel no Pain.

You have a condition built into the Bonesword and Force rules. there is no condition about Str double Tough.

Str 8 wounds Always cause ID on T4 models. (There is no condition that over-rides this).

Str 8 wounds Never cause ID on T5+ models (There is no condition that over-rides this).

The same is not true for Force weapons.

 Gloomfang wrote:


What we are disagreeing on is a fundimental question of game mechanics.

A model gets hit with a set of dual Bone Swords. It has to pass a leadership test on 3D6 or die.

You are saying that failing that check activates the ID power of the Bone Swords.

I am saying that passing that check prevents the ID power of the Bone Swords from killing the model.

That is essentially the same thing.

If test is passed no ID, if test is failed ID.

The wounds, by default, do not cause ID, unless the test is failed, which we do not know if the test is failed when the wound is suffered, so at that point they do not inflict ID. They can't or you would have no reason to take the test.

 DeathReaper wrote:
That is essentially the same thing.

If test is passed no ID, if test is failed ID.

The wounds, by default, do not cause ID, unless the test is failed, which we do not know if the test is failed when the wound is suffered, so at that point they do not inflict ID. They can't or you would have no reason to take the test.

And I reason the exact oposite. If they did not casue ID why would you need to save against it?

"must pass or x"

So I get hit with MSS. I have to make a save to not hit myself. If I pass I get to not hit myself. If I fail I hit myself.

If I pass you would still say I was hit with MSS. I just saved it, so it had no effect. Same thing with Terror. You get hit and make a Ld check to ignore.

To go further lets reduce the Ld value of every unit to zero.
Force weapon: Never activate. Never ID.
Bone Sword: Not applicable. LD has not bearing on results.
Unit hit with Bone Swords: Never pass. Always suffer ID.

Right now where I am we require a Ld check on the first wound from a model with a bone sword before FNP. But that is a "house rule".

Does the rulebook not say that double 1's always win a LD check?

 liturgies of blood wrote:
Does the rulebook not say that double 1's always win a LD check?

Insane courage is for morale checks only I thought. Pg3 would say that you can not even make the test.

Just ask my broodlord about Assail.

It's Leadership tests.

The wounds, by default, do not cause ID. You must fail a LD check for the wound to cause ID (for Boneswords).

Basically the question is: Does an Unsaved wound from a Bonesword, or force weapon inflict ID?

The answer must be: We do not know intill we go through the process as described for those rules.

And since that is not a "Yes" FNP can be taken.

 DeathReaper wrote:
The answer must be: We do not know intill we go through the process as described for those rules.

And since that is not a "Yes" FNP can be taken.

The answer is known 'immediately' (as per both Force and Boneswords) after the wound is dealt, prior to FNP which is not dealt with 'immediately'.

As I read it.

I see no requirement for the ID to be determined prior to the wound for FnP to interact.

 DeathReaper wrote:
The wounds, by default, do not cause ID. You must fail a LD check for the wound to cause ID (for Boneswords).

Basically the question is: Does an Unsaved wound from a Bonesword, or force weapon inflict ID?

The answer must be: We do not know intill we go through the process as described for those rules.

And since that is not a "Yes" FNP can be taken.

Lets take a slightly diffrent tactic.

The answer of "We do not know intill we go through the process as described for those rules." is correct.

However permissive rule set only gives you permission to take FNP against those wounds that do NOT cause ID. You have no permission to take FNP against those that MIGHT casue ID. Until you go thrugh the process you do not have permission to take FNP.

 kirsanth wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
The answer must be: We do not know intill we go through the process as described for those rules.

And since that is not a "Yes" FNP can be taken.

The answer is known 'immediately' (as per both Force and Boneswords) after the wound is dealt, prior to FNP which is not dealt with 'immediately'.

As I read it.

I see no requirement for the ID to be determined prior to the wound for FnP to interact.

Again with this 'timing' claim. Where are we told 'immediatly' happens befoer anything else in the step?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Gloomfang wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
The wounds, by default, do not cause ID. You must fail a LD check for the wound to cause ID (for Boneswords).

Basically the question is: Does an Unsaved wound from a Bonesword, or force weapon inflict ID?

The answer must be: We do not know intill we go through the process as described for those rules.

And since that is not a "Yes" FNP can be taken.

Lets take a slightly diffrent tactic.

The answer of "We do not know intill we go through the process as described for those rules." is correct.

However permissive rule set only gives you permission to take FNP against those wounds that do NOT cause ID. You have no permission to take FNP against those that MIGHT casue ID. Until you go thrugh the process you do not have permission to take FNP.

Incorrect we are given permission to take a FNP roll versus any wound that does not inflict ID. We do not know if the wound will infict ID until the required condition is checked.

 hisdudeness wrote:

Again with this 'timing' claim. Where are we told 'immediatly' happens befoer anything else in the step?

English.
The actual word lets you know nothing happens prior.

And I claim that immediately means any time before moving to the next step in the process. Prove me wrong.

 hisdudeness wrote:
And I claim the immediately means any time before moving to the next step in the process. Prove me wrong.

You covered that part already.

Seriously... The timing debate has been had over and over and isn't the way to steer this argument. Seek out older threads if you really want to.

Yes, even 5th edition threads as they had the same wording as far as timing.

 kirsanth wrote:

 hisdudeness wrote:
And I claim the immediately means any time before moving to the next step in the process. Prove me wrong.

You covered that part already.

So why are you/others bring up the 'timing' argument? It will get this thread nowhere.

The timing is related to the rest of what I meant.

"I see no requirement for the ID to be determined prior to the wound for FnP to interact."

The fact that the can occur in a different order does not prevent anything from making the wound cause ID, preventing FnP from working.

The timing IS important - whether 'immediately' matters or not, but it ('immediately') is also the only indicator of timing in the rules to further delineate 'after'.

editing to add:
You are instructed to determine whether the wound causes ID 'immediately' after suffering the wound.
FnP is determined after suffering a wound.
If you determine FnP prior to determining ID, you are not determining ID 'immediately', breaking a rule.
If you determine ID prior to determining FnP, you are still determining FnP after suffering a wound, breaking no rule.

Timing does not matter, we can not take a FNP roll until we know what type of wound will be inflicted. So Bonesword/Force Weapons effects need to be resolved.

In these cases FNP is conditional on the outcome of those abilities.

 hisdudeness wrote:
Timing does not matter, we can not take a FNP roll until we know what type of wound will be inflicted.

The mind boggles.

And if you have 2 'immedate' effects and one goes before the other you break the rules. Except, we don't because there are no rules for 'immdeate'

Force Weapons can only activate when they have inflicted an unsaved wound, if FNP passes then you HAVE NOT inflicted an unsaved wound. Simple as that.

Unsaved wound means that you went through ALL your saves and could not save it, why would we disregard a save and immediately move on to the "unsaved wound" state?

You are mis-reading what I am writing, hisdudeness.

Also, FnP triggers on an unsaved wound*, as a special rule, not a save.

 kirsanth wrote:
You are mis-reading what I am writing, hisdudeness.

Also, FnP triggers on an unsaved wound*, as a special rule, not a save.

Just looked it up, you are correct. In fact, Feel No Pain even specifies that it is NOT a saving throw. After careful consideration, I would like to change my vote.

Besides if I make my FNP special, your potentially ID wound never took place.

Go GO gadget FNP

It's not a save but you must count the wound as being saved if it passes.

I have never once claimed FNP is a save, infact if it were the only models that could use the rule are those that have no save in the first place.

The answer to the OP question is 'no', you do not get a FNP roll before the activation of the Force Weapon. This is due to the fact that the status of the un-saved wound (inflicts ID or not) is in flux.

I think there might be yet a different view here.... Force weapons never have instant death. When the weapon is activated the wounds now cause instant death. There is a difference. The timing issue is still there but you can't argue that Force weapons ever even have Instant Death USR. The question really should have been stated as was but the FAQ didn't affect it in the least and should not have even been mentioned. I think I would have to say that the player who's turn it is gets to decide order.

Gravmyr wrote:
I think there might be yet a different view here.... Force weapons never have instant death. When the weapon is activated the wounds now cause instant death. There is a difference. The timing issue is still there but you can't argue that Force weapons ever even have Instant Death USR. The question really should have been stated as was but the FAQ didn't affect it in the least and should not have even been mentioned. I think I would have to say that the player who's turn it is gets to decide order.

The weapon does not need ID. The only requirement is that the Wound inflict ID. It does not matter what allows the Wound to cause ID.

USR -FNP- p. 35
"When a model with this special rule suffers an unsaved wound, it can make a special feel no pain roll to avoid being wounded (this is not a saving throw)." This sentence negates the argument that FNP is a 'save' that would need to be failed before instant death took effect.

USR -Force- p. 37
" if the test is passed, all unsaved wounds inflicted by the force weapon that turn have the instant death special rule." The combination of 'all unsaved wounds' and 'that turn' removes timing issues as to what happens first. There is no timing involved. Since all wounds that turn generate the instant death effect (including the one that allows the test for activation) there would be no 'special feel no pain roll'.

If you can show that unsaved wounds caused in an assault where a force weapon has been activated are not part of all wounds and do not take place that turn I'd be happy to change my stance.

Just my opinion

The problem is the timing.

Pro-FNP claim that the wound is not unsaved until all possible chances to make it a saved wound have been used. This is my personal belief, but that is partly rooted in 5th ed.
Pro-ID claim that since the test is done immediately, it must be done after any allowed saves, but before anything else.

There is no timing!

You cannot make a FNP roll until you know if it is allowed, i.e. if the wound will inflict ID. Thus we must complete the additional effects and determine the result. Then we can apply FNP if it is allowed.

I'm not understanding what is so hard to understand about this.

Take your wound pool and make saves, Any un-saved wounds can now have conditional effects rolled for and applied. If conditions are meet for FNP, make the roll. Otherwise assign wounds to models.

Anyother way breaks a rule.

USR -FNP- p. 35
"On a 5+, the unsaved wound is discounted - treat it as having been saved." The FNP rule itself has the wording that defeats the whole timing argument. It has to be an unsaved wound for FNP to take effect.

There is still no timing issue. All unsaved wounds inflicted by the force weapon that turn have ID. Do you have to suffer an unsaved wound to use the FNP USR? Yes. Can you use FNP against an activated force weapon wound inflicted in that combat? No.

 kirsanth wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
The answer must be: We do not know intill we go through the process as described for those rules.

And since that is not a "Yes" FNP can be taken.

The answer is known 'immediately' (as per both Force and Boneswords) after the wound is dealt, prior to FNP which is not dealt with 'immediately'.

As I read it.

I see no requirement for the ID to be determined prior to the wound for FnP to interact.

This.

 hisdudeness wrote:
There is no timing!

You cannot make a FNP roll until you know if it is allowed, i.e. if the wound will inflict ID. Thus we must complete the additional effects and determine the result. Then we can apply FNP if it is allowed.
.

Conversely you cannot activate the ID ability of the weapon, until you know you have an unsaved wound, which would be after FNP. So it most definitely a timing issue.

As I stated, I'm Pro-FNP, but that is mostly due to playing so much 5th ed, where FNP came before the removal of the Wound on the profile. If GW rules against, whatever. Until then if it comes up (warning breaking a tenet here) I'll either use TMIR and roll off, or in the case of something like Force weapons where both players have something to do, whoever's turn it is decides the order.

However most of this is moot, since nobody I play against uses GK or models with Force weapons, and I'm the only one who plays Nids.

According to the FAQ each wound is first saved against then the FNP roll before the model receives a wound. The FNP rule says the wound is treated as having been saved.

Psilence: "When a model with this special rule suffers an unsaved wound, it can make a special feel no pain roll to avoid being wounded (this is not a saving throw)."

How does a Force weapon inflict a wound if there is an ability that avoids it?

hisdudeness: "You cannot make a FNP roll until you know if it is allowed, i.e. if the wound will inflict ID. Thus we must complete the additional effects and determine the result. Then we can apply FNP if it is allowed. "

Since at the time when the save is failed both rules happen, it is equally arguable that FNP should happen first because at the time it has the potential to be ID but no wound has been inflicted till the model's wound characteristic is reduced by 1 that would allow you to roll for activating Force. FNP says you use the mixed save format for allocating wounds which means one at a time, therefor your statement that you roll saves is flawed.


The way I currently read it is:
1. wound pool fills
2. If models with FNP are involved a single wound is allocated
3. Save taken (assumed failed)
4. FNP roll happens
4a. Passed roll creates a saved wound and not inflicted (Restart from step 2)
4b. Failed roll inflicts wound allowing Force to be activated
5. Activated Force USR turns all remaining wounds to ID

Had to redact after rereading SR from necron codex.

SpaceRatCatcher wrote:
Perhaps I'm missing something, but my understanding is that FNP is not a saving throw, it's a special rule that allows the model to ignore a wound it has suffered. Force weapons are activated once an unsaved wound is inflicted. So as soon as the target fails its invulnerable save (if it has one), the model with a force weapon makes a psychic test. If the the psychic test is passed, the model does not roll for FNP, as the wound/weapon inflicts ID; if the test is failed, then the target does benefit from FNP.

By RAW you have a trigger (unsaved wound) that activates more than 1 special power. The Force weapon can test to ID the model suffering the unsaved wound and the Model can also test FNP to discount the unsaved wound. So you can actually have a case where the Model makes its FNP check and does not suffer a wound and the Force weapon activates and kills the model without causing a wound. It is a paradox. The common sense approach has been that FNP should go first to avoid the kind of scenario as there are other ways to cause this same issue.

I am sorry but I don't buy that.

 Dozer Blades wrote:
I am sorry but I don't buy that.

Dont buy what ?

FAQ p1. Special Rules FNP
'Add the following paragraph. If one or more models in a unit have the FNP special rule then the mixed saves method of wound allocation should always be used for allocating wounds and removing casualties from the unit; FNP rolls should be individually made after each failed save.

USR FNP p.35
'On a roll of 5+, the unsaved wound is discounted - treat it as having been saved.' You have to suffer the unsaved wound to even use FNP.

FAQ p4.
Q: Can FNP rolls be made against unsaved wounds inflicted by weapons with the instant death special rule?
A: No. This one is self explanatory.


MIxed saves. p15
Allocate, take saves, remove casualties. 'The model gets to make a saving throw, if it has one (see p.16). If it fails, reduce that models wounds by one.' Once the model fails its saving throw it has suffered an unsaved wound.

Saves p. 16 - 19.
Armor, Invuln, Cover. No mention of FNP. It is not a save.

Force p.37
'If the test is passed, all unsaved wounds inflicted by the force weapon that turn have the Instant death special rule (see p. 38)'. This goes back to the OP and the fact that force weapons do indeed have the ID special rule.


1. wound pool fills
2. If models with FNP are involved a single wound is allocated
3. Save taken (assumed failed). At this point the model has suffered an unsaved wound. Supported by the FNP USR itself.
4. Psyker passes ld test to activate force weapon. (test is passed).
5. All wounds inflicted by the force weapon that turn have the ID special rule applied to them.
6. FNP is disallowed per the new 40k rulebook FAQ.
7. Model with FNP suffers a wound. Weather or not it dies goes down to wounds remaining and the eternal warrior USR, but for this argument doesn't matter at all.

Anyone have unsaved wounds and that turn wording workaround yet?

You do not know if a wound is unsaved unless FNP is taken and failed. so FNP must go first.

look at the case of Entropic Strike and FNP. ES says immediately as well.

But if you roll for FNP after rolling for ES, you have to ignore the ES roll and treat the wound as saved. so rolling FNP first has to be the way to do it, as it does not break any rules.

 Gloomfang wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
The wounds, by default, do not cause ID. You must fail a LD check for the wound to cause ID (for Boneswords).

Basically the question is: Does an Unsaved wound from a Bonesword, or force weapon inflict ID?

The answer must be: We do not know until we go through the process as described for those rules.

And since that is not a "Yes" FNP can be taken.

Lets take a slightly diffrent tactic.

The answer of "We do not know intill we go through the process as described for those rules." is correct.

However permissive rule set only gives you permission to take FNP against those wounds that do NOT cause ID. You have no permission to take FNP against those that MIGHT casue ID. Until you go thrugh the process you do not have permission to take FNP.

But that unsaved wound, pre-test, does not inflict FNP

People have asked a valid question many times that I have yet to see answered. Is FNP listed as a save in its rules? I dont have my rulebook on me so I can't check.

 Vindicare-Obsession wrote:
People have asked a valid question many times that I have yet to see answered. Is FNP listed as a save in its rules? I dont have my rulebook on me so I can't check.

It's not a save but it says to treat the wound as saved if you pass.

Then at this point, timing is the only thing left to argue (which isint going to work out).

One of the biggest issues with the interaction between these two rules has always been timing based on when a wound is allocated. The new FAQ addressed this somewhat by forcing you to treat any unit with FnP as a mixed save unit.

The result of that is that the causing of the unsaved wound for the purpose of the FW, and the suffering of the unsaved wound for the purpose of FnP occur at exactly the same moment.

The only way to resolve this under the current rules as written is to have the player whose turn it is decide the order in which they happen. Or, if you prefer, randomize it each time.

CanisLupus518 wrote:
The only way to resolve this under the current rules as written is to have the player whose turn it is decide the order in which they happen. Or, if you prefer, randomize it each time.

Unfortunately this doesn't work all the time, only when both players have actions at the same time (i.e. Force/FNP). If the same player is taking both actions (such as with boneswords), you cannot apply the rule.

Happyjew wrote:

CanisLupus518 wrote:
The only way to resolve this under the current rules as written is to have the player whose turn it is decide the order in which they happen. Or, if you prefer, randomize it each time.

Unfortunately this doesn't work all the time, only when both players have actions at the same time (i.e. Force/FNP). If the same player is taking both actions (such as with boneswords), you cannot apply the rule.

As HJ said.

One person has two actions to perform, so the player turn decides does not apply.

 DeathReaper wrote:

Happyjew wrote:

CanisLupus518 wrote:
The only way to resolve this under the current rules as written is to have the player whose turn it is decide the order in which they happen. Or, if you prefer, randomize it each time.

Unfortunately this doesn't work all the time, only when both players have actions at the same time (i.e. Force/FNP). If the same player is taking both actions (such as with boneswords), you cannot apply the rule.

As HJ said.

One person has two actions to perform, so the player turn decides does not apply.

I'm not familiar with the Bonesword issue... I was only talking about FW\FnP

Let me see if I understand the two factions of the argument. Please correct me if I am wrong.

"instant death"
Premise 1)
Force weapon says to test immediately after inflicting an unsaved wound.
Premise 2)
Feel no pain occurs after a model suffers an unsaved wound and if successful there is no wound. ID prevents the roll from happening.
Sub conclusion 1)
Since both rules trigger on an unsaved wound we should figure out the timing
Premise 3) force weapon rule says to roll immediately.
Premise 4) feel no pain does only indicates after unsaved wound.
Conclusion)
Roll for force weapon instant death before rolling for feel no pain. Successful check means do not roll feel no pain.

"Feel no pain"
Premise 1) we do not know if a wound is inflicted until after feel no pain is rolled for as a successful roll is treated as a passed save.
Premise 2) a force weapon requires an inflicted wound before the psychic test is rolled.
Conclusion) do not roll psychic test unless feel no pain is failed.

Do I understand the arguments? If not please correct me.

Yes that is basically the breakdown.

Which is incorrect, because you do not know if you actually have an unsaved wound until FNP is rolled.

Which is also incorrect. You absolutely have to know you have suffered an unsaved wound to use a FNP roll in the first place.

When exactly wound you roll for FNP then at the end of the phase? It would have to be immediate for both of them. If it wasn't immediate for FNP it wouldn't interrupt regular wound allocation now would it?

So both effects are triggered by an unsaved wound,

So the question really does become which is faster FNP or FW

Because from what I understand both happen instantly.

If that were the case simulations effects are sorted out at the active player’s discretion

There for if FNP triggers first and is assumed passed, FW checks to see if there is an unsaved wound which it doesn’t see and there for cannot be triggered

If FW triggers first and is assumed passed then FNP checks to see if ID is applied and would be disallowed

I would figure this is an accurate description of the event but it comes down to is FW faster than FNP

I think this argument will only be settled via a Gladiator battle to the death.

Or maybe an FAQ from GW. Gladiator battle sounds more likely, though.

Since it is down to a timing issue I would go for "player whose turn it is decides" or roll off at the beginning of the game, depending on what me and my opponent decide.

 A Town Called Malus wrote:
I think this argument will only be settled via a Gladiator battle to the death.

Or maybe an FAQ from GW. Gladiator battle sounds more likely, though.

+1

 Desubot wrote:
So both effects are triggered by an unsaved wound,

So the question really does become which is faster FNP or FW

Because from what I understand both happen instantly.

If that were the case simulations effects are sorted out at the active player’s discretion

There for if FNP triggers first and is assumed passed, FW checks to see if there is an unsaved wound which it doesn’t see and there for cannot be triggered

If FW triggers first and is assumed passed then FNP checks to see if ID is applied and would be disallowed

I would figure this is an accurate description of the event but it comes down to is FW faster than FNP

Well the wording for Force weapon has immediately while the wording for feel no pain does not.

 DeathReaper wrote:


One person has two actions to perform, so the player turn decides does not apply.

Coming out of lurk to say:

Which is wrong as it says "or may activate some special rule or occurrence" which does apply as it activates both special rules.


Back to lurk for me.

Psilence wrote:
Which is also incorrect. You absolutely have to know you have suffered an unsaved wound to use a FNP roll in the first place.

It is not incorrect and here is why:

Lets say two models are fighting, one has Entropic Strike, the other has FNP.

the model with ES hits and wounds, the armor save is failed.

Now 2 things happen:

1) FNP is triggered and needs to be resolved.

2) ES is triggered and needs to be resolved.

Lets assume both rolls are a 6.

If ES goes first, we have broken the FNP rule because you removed a models armor save when the wound is considered saved.

If FNP goes first, nothing else needs to be done.

One interpretation breaks the rules, one does not.

Play with the method that does not break any rules. (As we are not allowed to break rules).

I do not have the necron codex.

Can you post the rules for entropic strike?

I want to know if it uses the word immediately.

It does say immediately in the ES rules.

 DeathReaper wrote:

Psilence wrote:
Which is also incorrect. You absolutely have to know you have suffered an unsaved wound to use a FNP roll in the first place.

It is not incorrect and here is why:

Lets say two models are fighting, one has Entropic Strike, the other has FNP.

the model with ES hits and wounds, the armor save is failed.

Now 2 things happen:

1) FNP is triggered and needs to be resolved.

2) ES is triggered and needs to be resolved.

Lets assume both rolls are a 6.

If ES goes first, we have broken the FNP rule because you removed a models armor save when the wound is considered saved.

If FNP goes first, nothing else needs to be done.

One interpretation breaks the rules, one does not.

Play with the method that does not break any rules. (As we are not allowed to break rules).

For FNP to work there has to be an unsaved wound. The instant that happens we check for the instant death. Even if the wound is now counted as saved at some point it was an unsaved wound. It would break the rules to not immediatly check for instant death.

From a fluff stand point. It favors the instant death being checked first. 2 different TO and a call to games workshop backed that opinion as well. The game is a fluff filled nightmare! That's why we play?

I would like to point out that while DR was "fairly certain" he was correct on Smash, his method hurt him. think about a charging Tervigon with Crushing Claws and power that gives extra attacks:

DR method: (3+D3+D3+1)/2 = 3-5 attacks +1 HoW
GW method: (3/2)+D3+D3+1 = 6-9 attacks +1 HoW

Which one hurts the Tervigon more?

Irrelevant to the point at hand. We are not discussing tervigons here, we are discussing FW and Bone Swords Vs FNP. Keep comments that have to do with other threads in other threads.

Currently the way I see it is you play by the rule of Break No rules everyone is happy.

Say a Multi-wound unit with FNP takes 4 wounds from a from a model with a force weapon.

1st wound - failed save but passes FNP turning the unsaved wound into a Saved wound. Force gets no chance to activate
2nd wound - failed save but fails FNP. Force activates successfully meaning all remaining wounds are now ID
3rd wound - failed save does not get FNP due to weapon having ID rule.
4th wound - failed save does not get FNP due to weapon having ID rule.

Yes it slows the game down but in this case it allows both players to benefit from their rules without having a dice roll off.

The multi wound model in the above example would snuff it immediately following activation of the force weapon after suffering the 2nd wound, right?

Not if it had EW

 Dozer Blades wrote:
The multi wound model in the above example would snuff it immediately following activation of the force weapon after suffering the 2nd wound, right?

It may, it was stated "multi wound unit" Say for example the weapon in question is ap3, and it's striking against Paladins w/ FNP.

ah now I see your mistake, multi wound unit, not model.

Most units are multi wound... Somewhat implicit in my opinion.

 Dozer Blades wrote:
Most units are multi wound... Somewhat implicit in my opinion.

A multi-wound unit is a unit consisting of multi-wound models.

 DeathReaper wrote:

Psilence wrote:
Which is also incorrect. You absolutely have to know you have suffered an unsaved wound to use a FNP roll in the first place.

It is not incorrect and here is why:

Lets say two models are fighting, one has Entropic Strike, the other has FNP.

the model with ES hits and wounds, the armor save is failed.

Now 2 things happen:

1) FNP is triggered and needs to be resolved.

2) ES is triggered and needs to be resolved.

Lets assume both rolls are a 6.

If ES goes first, we have broken the FNP rule because you removed a models armor save when the wound is considered saved.

If FNP goes first, nothing else needs to be done.

One interpretation breaks the rules, one does not.

Play with the method that does not break any rules. (As we are not allowed to break rules).

I don't think this is a good example in this argument as ES doesn't roll for taking away the armour save, only to strip armour value from a vehicle facing. The actual wording for that portion or the rule is: "any model that suffers one or more unsaved wounds from a weapon or model with this special rule immediately loses it's armour save for the remainder of the battle..."

EDIT: clarity.

It still applies, even if you do not roll to take away the armor save.

if FNP works in all situations by rolling for FNP then rolling/applying other effects, and the reverse is not true, then you roll FNP first because it does not break any rules and the other way does.

Sorry, but I'm still not seeing that it applies. I'm not sure what you mean by 'if the reverse is not true'.

In the FW example the owning player has to roll to get an effect to happen.

In the ES example, the owning player doesn't have to do anything. There is nothing but the regular saves, and then the FNP roll happening. If FNP fails, then the armour save is gone.

Does that make sense? It doesn't seem like an apples to apples comparison to me, but I may be wrong.


EDIT: Clarity

Right, and if you strip the armor save first (Because there was an unsaved Wound) then you have broken the rule of FNP creating Saved wounds.

That is what I mean by 'if the reverse is not true' (Basically if you apply effects off unsaved wounds before FNP you end up with a 1 wound model without an armor save, but still alive because the wound is treated as saved, which is not correct because if you are applying things on an unsaved wound that FNP saves why do you not reduce the models wounds by one as well?)

Gotcha!

Yes, I see what you mean now.

Thanks for the clarification.