Drop pod armies, from a necron perspective...

I hate drop pod armies.

I've spent an extensive amount of time sorting, playing and modifying lists for my necrons 1500 point bracket army.
and I've settled for something around this (roughly)

3 squads of 20 warriors.
2 lords with res orbs in he flanking squads.
5 destroyers with a destroyer lord (semi weave and res orb)
2 heavy destroyers with Szeras

( mostly because the destroyers are AP3 so no annoying saves from SM which are the majority at my club)
I'm confident with most armies I play, but drop pods destroy me so badly to the point where it feels unfair and almost pointless.

Taking first or second turn yeilds nothing, pods fall, heavy flamers and plasma just rip my troops to pieces.

Necron's work best engaging the enemy at mid range, at close range they are as good as toast no matter the unit (I've tried them all bay the stalker when I'm buying soon)
Do I just accept that I just can't do anything about the drop pods armies or is there something I've overlooked? Also any other necron players have any expirences with drop pod armies?

Last game I played was 3 pods(melta troop heavy) HQ was hestan, a storm talon, a vendetta and 2 chimeras (full or plasma and melta).

Any advice is welcome, for now I'm just going to refuse to play them because to me, I can't do anything but waste a hour watching all my units die.

Dont forget the Ironclad dude I have an Ironclad

Switch to Immortals. Point for point, Immortals are some of the best Troops in the entire game. Think of Immortals like a standard marine that gave up its marginal assault capability to have a better gun, feel no pain, and a cheaper cost (17 pts per).

Secondly, don't use destroyers. They suck.

Third, put your troops in something to protect them, either a Ghost Ark or a Night Scythe.

Here's a sample 1500 list:

5x Warriors with Solartek and Pulse

10x Immortals in Night Scythe

10x Immortals in Night Scythe

Doom Scythe

Doom Scythe

Overlord w/Warscythe on Command Barge

Destroyer Lord with MSS and SW attached to 4 Canoptek Wraiths

1490 points.

This gives a unit to hang in the back and take objectives (the warriors). It gives you a single pulse to protect you for one round of shooting. It gives you a giant beatstick (the DLord) with a protective squad to carry him to where he needs to be (the wraiths). You have two large, mobile scoring units that you can place directly in rapid fire range (Immortals). You also have a ton of shooting, flying firepower (Night Scythes, Doom Scythes). Finally, you have an Overlord on a command barge that will absolutely wreck vehicles and potentially can ruin some poor infantry squad's day.

MadmanMSU wrote:
Switch to Immortals. Point for point, Immortals are some of the best Troops in the entire game.

Secondly, don't use destroyers. They suck.

Third, put your troops in something to protect them, either a Ghost Ark or a Night Scythe.

Here's a sample 1500 list:

5x Warriors with Solartek and Pulse

10x Immortals in Night Scythe

10x Immortals in Night Scythe

Doom Scythe

Doom Scythe

Overlord w/Warscythe on Command Barge

Destroyer Lord with MSS and SW attached to 4 Canoptek Wraiths

1490 points.

This gives a unit to hang in the back and take objectives (the warriors). It gives you a single pulse to protect you for one round of shooting. It gives you a giant beatstick (the DLord) with a protective squad to carry him to where he needs to be (the wraiths). You have two large, mobile scoring units that you can place directly in rapid fire range (Immortals). You also have a ton of shooting, flying firepower (Night Scythes, Doom Scythes). Finally, you have an Overlord on a command barge that will absolutely wreck vehicles and potentially can ruin some poor infantry squad's day.

Interesting, I was thinking about switching to immortals, going to destroy my wallet.

One thing I'm confused about is the doom scythes, you're paying 75pts more for one ST 10 AP 1 hit. (things under the line)
I've personally not seen any use in them. Also it sucks that tesla destructors are AP -


Night scythes make sense I think I'd rather have 15 immortals in them personally.

I was not expecting a response to be so heavy on flyers, but honestly I don't know much about the online scene and have only the experiences from my club hahaha!!
Thanks for the suggestion!! I appreciate it

The first thing you have to understand is that the basic tenet of a Necron army is volume of shooting. Not all Necron lists run with this philosophy, but most do. Essentially, you're playing the odds against your opponent....throw so many bullets at them that it doesn't matter what armor save or cover save they have, eventually they will fail their saves.

Doom Scythes are totally over-powered. Honestly, once you get used to using them your friends might stop playing games against you and start complaining, they're that good. I've had plenty of games where that STR10 AP1 line took out 7 marines in one go....and that's in ADDITION to the 4 TL Tesla Destructor shots!!!

I just realized you can only have squads of 10 immortals, my bad.

I Don't doubt you at all, I've only used my scythe a few times and alone it was not worht the points.
The real trouble is not knowing what all the up and coming 6th edition codexs will have with skyfire.


To make the additions(1 doom, 2 night and 15 immortals) It's going to cost £144... ouch.

Kikojui wrote:
To make the additions(1 doom, 2 night and 15 immortals) It's going to cost £144... ouch.

No one said this hobby would be cheap

My most successful Necron lists at the 1500 and 1750 levels have had squads of 20 warriors with Res Lord and a Ghost Ark backing them up. A blob of 20 warriors is just about unkillable when half of them get back up each phase and 1 - 3 are recreated by the Ghost Ark every turn. I assaulted into a squad of Assault Marines and took them down with the warriors even, granted I did have a Warscythe on my Lord that time.

I have also had good luck with Immotekh in assaults, since I challenge with him and get a few extra "wounds" for the assault results, keeping the warriors in the fight the first assault and then enough get up to give me the upper hand next assault phase.

If your issue is with drop pods, is it that they drop in assault range and you have to many of them to shoot before they assault the next turn? If that's the case, then alter your deployment to minimize the number of pods that can drop near you. For example, deploy in one corner of your deployment zone, with your front ranks spread out enough to only have a few hit by blase / flame templates. Make him have to drop his pods farther away or risk going off the board (drop pods can mishap, they just don't do it because of impassable terrain or enemy models, off the table is a mishap). Once you have limited to only 1 or 2 drop pods near you, thin out those 2 squads that are close to you with shooting and assault them with a blob of 20. If you are going first, even better, spread yourself out so there isn't a safe place to drop a pod on one of your flanks and limit him to 1 pod near you, which you should easily be able to kill in one round.

Also, remember that a drop pod in difficult terrain has to take a DTT, and so do the guys inside since they have landed in difficult terrain via deep strike. Make him lose a few models due to dangerous terrain and kill the rest with 40 rapid fire gauss shots.

Melta is nothing to Necron Warriors, it's just one guy down per hit, and he can come back. Rapid fire is much worse, because more guys die. Put your blob of 20 in front of your Ghost Ark, and give it a cover save against the melta (and also keep the melta more than 6" away from the Ark.) Make sure you keep your Ghost Arks close to as many warrior blobs as you can, even if you have to stretch out a blob of 20 with a "conga line", that way you can have all the Ghost Arks choose to replenish 1 squad that took a bunch of hits or didn't roll RP well.

I lost a squad of 20 in the opening turn, two pods dropped right in front of my block (deployed so that they had that only option) A dreadnaught and hestans tactical squad emerged, a TL heavy flamer from the dreadnaught and a heavy flamer from hestan aided with bolt guns downed my front 20 warriors (don't get to res since they are all floored).
This left my destroyers open to attacks, in my turn I had to try and deal with what was all in front of me, so I rapid fired the Dreadnaught, it died.
I rapid fired the tactial squad and hestan, and killed 2 marines.

Fired all the destroyers 2 died out right but hestan wast he next closet and 5 wounds went to him, which he saved.

Next turn another pod dropped in front making a line, more troops emerged and I lost all he destroyers... at this point there is not much left to do, vendetta and talon where in range, chimeras waiting with flamers to go in. you can imagine the rest.

took 40 warriors rapid firing to down hestan... :/ (I admit my rolls where not great)

You might get a lot of hates throwing that many flyers in.

Deathrays are auto-hit, on a flyer, that can move 36", and can hit things behind it, that's why they're the best. Nothing in this game can do that many auto-hit S10 AP1 wounds, and possibly damaging multiple units with one shot. You can also park it relatively close to your opponent's units, in the comfort of knowing not many will managed to skyfire at you!

Personally, I'll consider MSU tactic, your massive warriors blobs aren't scary in melee, they get murdered or tied up easily by any assault unit in this game, if I was playing a drop pod army against you, I wouldn't think twice before just dropping my entire army into your side. If you field them as, say(for example's sake) 5-men blobs, if they get assaulted, they'd still lose, but now the other 55 of them are free to fire at that assault unit on the next turn as he can't consolidate into another combat. Also it allows for more divided shootings from you, if you managed to get lucky and wreck the drop pods or tank or whatever with your 5 gauss flayers, the other warriors can then fire at something else, whereas your current setup would mean the other 15 gauss flayers are wasted.

Another thing is, consider counter-assault, and/or take that d-lord wraiths combo MadmanMSU suggested, you want your opponent to think twice before just dropping assaults on you as you can now threaten his assault units with your own. Or scarabs, they can tie up a lot of things, and they cost nothing!

Be more diversed in your tactic, throw in some despairteks + 5 deathmarks combo for example, deep strike them behind the enemy's line, they're deadly for the marked target, your enemy will now have to pick between defending that unit, killing the deathmarks or try to move away from them. Either way, you have now returned the favour, you have made your opponent rethink his tactic based on your action, instead of just you being forced to adjust to his drop pods.

Annihilation barge is great for its price(money or points), and they're not flyer, so it's a bit more friendly than a flyer spam.

C'Tan with Lord of Fire & Sentient Singularity with a couple crypteks with ether crystals should help.

It is tough to give advice, because a lot of what is happening isnt necessary due to your army selection as much as deployment and terrain deployment. you get to place terrain so you can make it so deep striking isn't easy, I know drop pods are safe, but you can still force them out of range by deploying a little more spread out and using big pieces of terrain.

In general spreading out tactically is great because then he wont be able to drop everything clustered together and use his crossfiring to kill so much stuff.

Hope this helps.

If you use the Character Cryptek (wow I can't remembe rhis name... need caffeine) that makes everything difficult on the first turn, with a C'Tan that makes all difficult terrain dangerous, then your opponent is going to have a lot of problems landing half his drop pods on turn 1.

But joking aside, the Night Scythe is the single best transport in 40k right now, and the Doom Scythe is just disgustingly overpowered at the moment.

Kikojui wrote:


3 squads of 20 warriors.
2 lords with res orbs in he flanking squads.
5 destroyers with a destroyer lord (semi weave and res orb)
2 heavy destroyers with Szeras

Just as a small note, if that is your exact list, it's illegal. In order to take Lords, you need a Royal Court, which are only provided by Overlords or Overlord Special Characters. Neither the Destroyer Lord of Szeras unlock the court.

The thing with blobs is, you have to fully commit to them. 20 guys with just a standard Lord isn't going to scare anyone (in assault), however 20 Guys with a Phaeroned Overlord (w/Res Orb/Mindshackle,/Warsctythe/Semp Weave) and either a standard lord(WS/MSS) or a Cryptek with some CC buffing abilities (Gaze of Flame, Lightning, d3" less assault distance thingy) is much more respectable. Also, back it up with a Ghost Arc. Now your cooking with Crisco. The Overlord gives you some strong 2+ wounds to soak up some bullets and keep you from getting wiped, and the Phaeron makes the 40 rapid fire shots plus the 40 CC attacks on the charge (minus higher I casualties) a vartiable force in CC, plus of course a handful of Warscythe attacks and some MSS action. If you want to get real cute attach Szeras to this unit. 20 Phaeroned S5 or T5 or BS 5 Warriors with a Res Orb, a couple of Warscythes/MSS, and Gaze of Flame is pretty legit. Expensive, but incredibly difficult to take down, shooting, CC or otherwise.


I'm a bit surprised a couple of heavy flamers had the impact that they did. If that is a reoccurring issue, one much your deploying in such a way that your opponent will be severely limited on template hits (ie, spread out), and two, you can always screen your Warrior blob with some Immortals/Lychguard/Wraiths or something else that doesn't fear the AP 4 hits.

Ok...Don't put the Destroyer lord with the destroyers. D. Lords are CC beasts, destroyers are shooty.
Instead, use the D. Lord in conjunction with wraiths. Drop the second squad of destroyers and add 2 normal ones to the heavy destroyers, to provide as meat shields and defensive fire.

If you are using that many warriors, you might as well get a ghost ark. And drop Szeras. He's probably the most useless IC in the codex.

Some vaild points, more so with the DL put with shooters (he was there so that the destroyers, who are my main damaging unit could get res orb bonuses, and provide a CC deterant).
Destroyers are totally undervalued, 2 shots AP3 means NO armour save from pesky SM which in all my countless wars have been a blight on my shooting.

SM players soon break a sweat when 5-6 marines are instant killed per volly. from 5 destroyers.

I suppose this thread has got a little side tracked, I'm not trying to build a pure Anti drop pod list, I'm trying to make a list that is balenced against all armies, but when I do, Drop pods just mess things up, other wise I'd use my deathmarks with despair tecks, Lychguard, C'tan shard etc.

If a player is experienced (the guy with the pod army has 15 years exp) and uses an army like he did, its very hard for any necron player to stand a chance.

Necron suck at CC and shooting down flyers (yes you can TRY drowning them in rapid fire gauss, but more often nothing happens).


I'm basically saying, unless you make a list anti drop pod, it's very hard to make a list thats balanced and can even slightly cope with dreadnoughts, assault squads and flamers dropping on you. with vendettas, talons and chimeras with flamers closing in on you.

Dlord (MSS/SW/WS) + 6 wraiths (2-3 whips/3-4 pistols) = cc love

About the only unit I avoid with these guys are termies with ss/th (unless they are below 5 in which case it's feeding time). I've had more people get upset over all the little tricks these guys have. You'll hear things like "What do you mean my HQ is now going to beat himself on the head 3 times and not hit back?" or "Are you sure the warscythe is a S7 AP1 weapon that doesn't go off at I1?" and my personal favorite "You can't get to my unit - there's all of this difficult terrain between us. What's this wraithflight stuff???" and then there's the "3+? That's your armor save right? Because I have all power weapons in this unit". Not to mention "what do you mean I go last? You're I2 for crying out load!"

Like I said, you play these guys you should expect to get a lot of hate mail your way - even if you lose the game.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I think it's being covered already but:

1. Spread out as much as possible to survive the initial shots from the drop podding flamers. And by spreading out I mean try forming some semblance of a circle with the full 2" separation between dudes. Try flaming that!
2. If you're going to run blobs of 10 or more warriors make sure you have a decked out lord or overlord in there: MSS/SW/WS/Orb/Phaeron. If it's an overlord keep in a position to soak up shots and be first in for the assault. If it's a RC lord bury him a little as he has only one wound and you really need the orb.
3. Drop the destroyers for wraiths: at least 5 and attach the DLord
4. Include one Doom Scythe. The death ray/tesla destructor is useful for thinning out termies before the wraiths assault
5. Include two Night Scythes. Useful for getting troops to objectives fast, good at taking out troops on the ground, good at taking out fellow flyers
6. Don't ignore the drop pods completely as they are easy KPs for the DLord or gauss shooting.

Don't know if you can get all of that into a 1500 point list but I'd try...

As to flyers I really think you need three standard. A lot of people are carrying one thing that's dedicated to shooting down flyers when they show up. Which means you'll loose one flyer (quad gun has not been nice to me) leaving you with two to try and take out the gun which is usually what it takes. Just my opinion - may not make as much sense at 1500...

Kikojui wrote:
I'm basically saying, unless you make a list anti drop pod, it's very hard to make a list thats balanced and can even slightly cope with dreadnoughts, assault squads and flamers dropping on you. with vendettas, talons and chimeras with flamers closing in on you.

Look, I'm going to give this to you straight. I don't mean to be offensive when I say this, but...you're going to lose every game with this mentality. This is what they call a "self fulfilling prophecy"...you think it's impossible to stop a drop pod list with a TAC list. But it's not.

Step 1: If you use warriors, put them in a transport. Don't want to use flyers? Fine, use a Ghost Ark. There are plenty of examples out there of how effective an AV13 Necron Wall list can be. Google it.

Step 2: If you must use unprotected foot, use Immortals. A heavy flamer (AP 4) cannot pierce their 3+ armor. And their guns are better.

Step 3: Stop using destroyers. No, they're not the worst unit in the game. Yes, they're very good at killing marines. But that doesn't mean that they are cost effective. The points cost and risk-to-reward ratio is WAY too high.

Step 4: Stop using Szeras.

Step 5: Res Orbs are rarely worth it. I'm not going to go into a full analysis of why, but for 90% of situations it's almost always better to just buy more troops with the points.

Final point of advice: If you're this concerned about taking on some players with 15+ years of experience, and your current list is not working for you, I would suggest trying out some lists that are known to work well and getting used to playing Necrons first before branching out into list types that are not conducive to the current metagame.

MadmanMSU wrote:

Kikojui wrote:
I'm basically saying, unless you make a list anti drop pod, it's very hard to make a list thats balanced and can even slightly cope with dreadnoughts, assault squads and flamers dropping on you. with vendettas, talons and chimeras with flamers closing in on you.

Look, I'm going to give this to you straight. I don't mean to be offensive when I say this, but...you're going to lose every game with this mentality. This is what they call a "self fulfilling prophecy"...you think it's impossible to stop a drop pod list with a TAC list. But it's not.

Step 1: If you use warriors, put them in a transport. Don't want to use flyers? Fine, use a Ghost Ark. There are plenty of examples out there of how effective an AV13 Necron Wall list can be. Google it.

Step 2: If you must use unprotected foot, use Immortals. A heavy flamer (AP 4) cannot pierce their 3+ armor. And their guns are better.

Step 3: Stop using destroyers. No, they're not the worst unit in the game. Yes, they're very good at killing marines. But that doesn't mean that they are cost effective. The points cost and risk-to-reward ratio is WAY too high.

Step 4: Stop using Szeras.

Step 5: Res Orbs are rarely worth it. I'm not going to go into a full analysis of why, but for 90% of situations it's almost always better to just buy more troops with the points.

Final point of advice: If you're this concerned about taking on some players with 15+ years of experience, and your current list is not working for you, I would suggest trying out some lists that are known to work well and getting used to playing Necrons first before branching out into list types that are not conducive to the current metagame.

No offense taken, I only lose to drop pod armies, hence this post, I'm not worried by all other army formats.

Answer to step 1:
The reason I don't use transports (and I have them, and have used them) is that in my personal expirece they drop easy, I want to engage the enemy at mid range and fire a ton of gauss, not the 5 on ach side of a ghost ark (yes they repair, yes you have to side strafe to it anything, and yes they provide cover) but for the points I'd rather use a Night scythe a million times over.

Answer to step 2:
As I've mentioned in a previous post I'm planning on switching to immortals.

Answer to step 3:
In all the necron codex I've used all except the stalker, and honestly, it might be the way I use them because I'm NOT attached to the metagame, they work great for me!! Fast enough to stay out of a terminator squad and pull and shoot them, I think the problem is on paper they don't stack up, and a lot of people don't try them as a result. it's not about theory in some units cases, its about feild testing and determing what works for your play style.

Answer to step 4:
Yes, he is not a great unit, I was experimenting with him because as I stated in the above answer, I'm not into theory 40k. Agreed however, for 100 points the HQ brings little ot the table, a better use of those 100 points would be a night scythe.

Answer to step 5:
Res Orbs... are massively worth it, I've run lists with and without them, and in the smaller points brackets (750, 1000, 1500) they are more needed than ever!!

Response to last bit:
I'm not a fan of list copying, I'd rather do the experimenting, analysis and refining of my own, its most of the fun.

I appreciate your reply.


I'd be interested in hearing about how some of you fellow necron players did vs a drop pod army so I can hear how you dealt with it (normal lists or tournament builds, not specific anti-pod lists) Ideally under 2000 points.

I've played heavily with my crons against drop-pod marines and there are some effective strategies to deal with them.

First is a unit of sword and board lychguard with either a character like an overlord or obyron attached or a supped up lord in the very least. Marines in drop pods, whether sternguard or tactical, will melt to this unit. Due to the reflection ability of the lychguard the squad's likley melta/plasma/rockets/etc. are easily hit right back at them or they have to ignore the lychguard for that turn making your job easier. While lychguard are a pretty ''meh' unit overall; in the counter-attack roll against aggressive armies like pod marines they are the perfect counter.

The next issue are deepstriking terminators (only Black Templars can pod them). While the TH/SS variety are tough they have to sit in the open for a turn. A great combo to bring them down is a stalker who can twin-link shot against the unit. Whether you are mass firing gauss or dropping a doomsday arc template you have a solid chance of causing some serious damage. However, my personal cheaper preference is a unit of 5 destruction crypteks which only clocks in at 175 and are the perfect anti-teq unit. A final option is a suicide C'tan as you rush it in, expect it to get flattened and take a few of the termies with him when he explodes, though this can be quite cost prohibitive. It works however since again, like lychguard, the C'tan is slow but perfect in the counter-assault roll.

Good luck!

Thanks, that is a really useful response.

I've got shield lychguard sitting in front of me, Its a good plan, send back the meltas will make them less likely to take the risk to use them.
Shield lychguard, with a lightning field tek and obyron would be a great counter offensive, if they say feth shooting them, I'll charge, hen so be it, if they don't they get charged back.

I'll field test this, only issue is the 420 points it would cost... but I guess the field tests will yield something, on paper, its not great, would fit in ok in 2000+ pts list.

Kikojui wrote:
I'd be interested in hearing about how some of you fellow necron players did vs a drop pod army so I can hear how you dealt with it (normal lists or tournament builds, not specific anti-pod lists) Ideally under 2000 points.

I usually play at 1850. I don't have a solid "every game list", but here's an example of the basis for most of my armies.

1685 Pts

5x Warriors
1x Chronotek
Aegis Defense Line
Icarus Lascannon

10x Immortals
Night Scythe

10x Immortals
Night Scythe

Annihilation Barge
Doom Scythe
Doom Scythe

Overlord with WS on Command Barge

DLord with MSS/SW
5x Canoptek Wraiths

Warriors sit behind the Aegis on/around/near the objective. Chronotek mans the lascannon.

Anni Barge and Command Barge set up behind the Aegis for the 4+ cover save in case I don’t go first. Wraiths and DLord set up as far forward as possible, because Wraiths just don’t give a crap with a 3++.

Everything else is in reserve.

Turn 1: Assuming I don’t go first, enemy drops on/around/near my position. Lascannon uses interceptor to take out something (usually a dread). Pretty good odds of success with the reroll working in your favor. Most common response I’ve gotten to a Chronotek manned Icarus Lascannon is “Are you serious?! They can do that?” Yes, they can reroll a dice every phase for whatever they want.

Enemy shoots at Wraiths. Wraiths scare the crap out of people, I’ve played many games where the first turn, their entire army shoots at the Wraiths. On the off chance they don’t, the warriors and barges all have a 4++.

On my turn, I move wraiths up and/or assault whatever landed. Command Barge takes out something with his WS and Anni Barge wrecks face.

Turn 2: Usually, they’re still struggling to stop/deter the wraiths from moving forward. Occasionally, they might target the Anni Barge or Command Barge. Sometimes, usually against Tyranid players, they will have a few units putting pressure on the Aegis Lines.

However, my turn 2 is when things start kicking into high gear. Both Doom Scythes come in and target whatever is the highest on the priority list. Night Scythes move forward and deploy if necessary, otherwise they shoot vehicles.

MadmanMSU wrote:

I usually play at 1850. I don't have a solid "every game list", but here's an example of the basis for most of my armies.

1705 Pts

5x Warriors
1x Chronotek
Aegis Defense Line
Icarus Lascannon
Comms Relay

10x Immortals
Night Scythe

10x Immortals
Night Scythe

Annihilation Barge
Doom Scythe
Doom Scythe

Overlord with WS on Command Barge

DLord with MSS/SW
5x Canoptek Wraiths

Warriors sit behind the Aegis on/around/near the objective. Chronotek mans the lascannon.

Anni Barge and Command Barge set up behind the Aegis for the 4+ cover save in case I don’t go first. Wraiths and DLord set up as far forward as possible, because Wraiths just don’t give a crap with a 3++.

Everything else is in reserve.

Turn 1: Assuming I don’t go first, enemy drops on/around/near my position. Lascannon uses interceptor to take out something (usually a dread). Pretty good odds of success with the reroll working in your favor. Most common response I’ve gotten to a Chronotek manned Icarus Lascannon is “Are you serious?! They can do that?” Yes, they can reroll a dice every phase for whatever they want.

Enemy shoots at Wraiths. Wraiths scare the crap out of people, I’ve played many games where the first turn, their entire army shoots at the Wraiths. On the off chance they don’t, the warriors and barges all have a 4++.

On my turn, I move wraiths up and/or assault whatever landed. Command Barge takes out something with his WS and Anni Barge wrecks face.

Turn 2: Usually, they’re still struggling to stop/deter the wraiths from moving forward. Occasionally, they might target the Anni Barge or Command Barge. Sometimes, usually against Tyranid players, they will have a few units putting pressure on the Aegis Lines.

However, my turn 2 is when things start kicking into high gear. With a comms relay, all my flyers arrive on a re-rollable 3+. Both Doom Scythes come in and target whatever is the highest on the priority list. Night Scythes move forward and deploy if necessary, otherwise they shoot vehicles.

Sorry to be the bearer of bad news, but... your list is illegal. You cannot have both an Icarus Lascannon AND the Comms Relay. It says - "Add one of the following:" - So either the Icarus lascannon or the comms link.

Gangrel767 wrote:
Sorry to be the bearer of bad news, but... your list is illegal. You cannot have both an Icarus Lascannon AND the Comms Relay. It says - "Add one of the following:" - So either the Icarus lascannon or the comms link.

Huh....I read it to mean you could take one of each (I.E. take one quad, one comms, one lascannon, etc.)

Oh well, get rid of the comms relay then. Learn something new every day.

Seems like a solid list! it works well for you're play style, what options do crons have for dealing with heavy flyers like the vendetta (Except the flyers)?

For me, I've had bad luck with my wraiths, they seem to go down very fast, but at my club people seem to be addicted to meltas / plasma / las cannons.
Snap shot fired plasma have downed 2 wraiths on the charge. :(

I was thinking about the chronotek the other day (used to use him with immotek for night fighting before it got nerfed), I suppose it can re-roll a HQ's Reanimation roll if its attached to the same unit.

Here we play in categories of 750-1000-1500-1750-2000 (higher if anyone has the points)

Kikojui wrote:
Seems like a solid list! it works well for you're play style, what options do crons have for dealing with heavy flyers like the vendetta (Except the flyers)?

Well....the icarus lascannon with chronotek works well. Annihilation Barges with underslung Tesla work well too, since every 6 they get is 3 hits instead of one.

I suppose a Ghost Ark with 5 or 6 Stormteks could work....with 4 shots each, you're going to get enough 6s to wreck a flyer.

Your blobs should work though. Mass gauss fire is doable, though not the best choice.

Oh my God - I love how you made the lascannon twin linked! Gotta try that one.

The way I deal with drop pods is relatively simple.

Step 1: Deploy blobs/vehicles just far enough from your edge that a drop pod can't fit. Point out that you're doing it that way so your opponent won't try to fit them there. Space out your flanks enough that a drop on either end will be pretty inedfective.

Step 2: Deploy maxed out unit of wraiths and a DL in front of them, leaving a gap too small for a drop pod in between. Spread em out single file, 2 inches apart and let the wraiths' invul saves eat the flamers. The spacing should keep the melted out of melta range at least.

Step 3: assault with the remaining wraiths, and march the crypteks you kitted out with those lovely ap2 flamers up and give those remaining pod squads a taste of their own medicine.

necron99 wrote:
Oh my God - I love how you made the lascannon twin linked! Gotta try that one.

It's better than twin-linked...you can also re-roll the armor pen or damage table if you don't burn it on the To Hit roll.

Ok, Trashed some orks today, but they are not drop pods, so actually... I'll keep it on topic.

Playing some Flesh tearers tomorrow, and I know its a 3 drop pod list.
I'm going to roll with mass immortals(proxying warriors as immortals), and maybe one of the counter attack ideas that came to light.

This will actually be my first time against flesh tearers, so no idea what to expect. I'll post the list (when I wake up).

Lets see if we can pull a win this time hahaha!

Step 3: Stop using destroyers. No, they're not the worst unit in the game. Yes, they're very good at killing marines. But that doesn't mean that they are cost effective. The points cost and risk-to-reward ratio is WAY too high.

Step 4: Stop using Szeras.

Step 5: Res Orbs are rarely worth it. I'm not going to go into a full analysis of why, but for 90% of situations it's almost always better to just buy more troops with the points.

Madman had some good advice but I don't particularly agree with these 3 statements.

Destroyers are one of the most cost effective ways for dealing with the most prolific troop profile in the game, MeQ. They are also incredibly mobile and great at staying on the peripheries on the flanks and carving away at the enemy. If you keep them on a flank, it's pretty unlikely they will get dropped in one round of shooting, and as long as they are getting there RP rolls they are quite cost effective. T5 3+/5+ cover and RP is just as survivable as the Term T4 2+/5++ against most weapons in the game. So they have terms resiliency with Preferred Enemy buffed Dark Reaper guns and Jump Packs. Seriously, whats not to love about them? Now, I wouldn't build an entire army around them, but one unit harassing the flanks can be quite effective.

Szeras has two uses, in conjunction with Anraykar Immortals in a Night Scythe or a blob of 20 Warriors with a Phaeron. In both of those situations he's reasonably effective (because he's providing a competent CC scoring unit both defensive grenades and, regardless of what buff they get (particularly the Strength buff, which is somewhat useless in most other Warrior/Immortal configurations), it will help them).

And Res Orbs are always worth it on a unit of 200+ point cost. Now, I suppose if you play strictly MSU, then that may be a "rarely," but any large unit that you are attaching an IC to absolutely should have a res orb in it.

Anyway, just my 2 cents.

ShadarLogoth wrote:
Madman had some good advice but I don't particularly agree with these 3 statements.

Destroyers are one of the most cost effective ways for dealing with the most prolific troop profile in the game, MeQ. They are also incredibly mobile and great at staying on the peripheries on the flanks and carving away at the enemy. If you keep them on a flank, it's pretty unlikely they will get dropped in one round of shooting, and as long as they are getting there RP rolls they are quite cost effective. T5 3+/5+ cover and RP is just as survivable as the Term T4 2+/5++ against most weapons in the game. So they have terms resiliency with Preferred Enemy buffed Dark Reaper guns and Jump Packs. Seriously, whats not to love about them? Now, I wouldn't build an entire army around them, but one unit harassing the flanks can be quite effective.

Szeras has two uses, in conjunction with Anraykar Immortals in a Night Scythe or a blob of 20 Warriors with a Phaeron. In both of those situations he's reasonably effective (because he's providing a competent CC scoring unit both defensive grenades and, regardless of what buff they get (particularly the Strength buff, which is somewhat useless in most other Warrior/Immortal configurations), it will help them).

And Res Orbs are always worth it on a unit of 200+ point cost. Now, I suppose if you play strictly MSU, then that may be a "rarely," but any large unit that you are attaching an IC to absolutely should have a res orb in it.

Anyway, just my 2 cents.

re: Destroyers

They do have some positive spots to them, as you've highlighted. My issue with them is that they are as expensive as terminators, they have to take terrain tests every time they jump into cover (which is less of an issue in 6th as it used to be, but still sucks when you lose a guy to a failed terrain test/armor roll), and they aren't fast enough to get behind enemy lines at the juicy bits (at least at the points level I play at....the flanks are always covered....at 1500 they may be more useful with less units on the board).

And in a TAC environment, any army that doesn't have a 3+ armor save makes them a waste.

But mostly its the terminator cost that kills them for me. I'd rather have wraiths (cheaper!).

You have some valid points though. I may reconsider using them for a couple games.

re: Szeras

Personally, I don't consider a Warrior blob, even with an Overlord, a "CC" unit. Anrakyr's buff or not, they don't do it for me, so I consider Szeras a giant waste of points. YMMV.

re: Res Orbs

The other place a Res Orb would be useful is a deathstar unit. Problem with a large blob of Warriors is you can't put them in a Ghost Ark, you can't put them in a Night Scythe....you give up AV13 armor, skimmer/flyer transport speeds, and Night Scythe deployment/armament for a couple extra warriors with a +1 to Protocols? Not worth it, imho. I don't see the appeal of large foot blobs, but to each their own.

Destroyers : I like them. They are a pretty killy unit, and the buff to preferred enemy has made them even more killy. I am currently run a squad with Heavy Gauss, and I am finding that they work rather well.

Szeras - No, just no. He's a harbinger of destruction that's about 45 points more than normal, and he comes with the gaze of flame...which is a pretty useless piece of gear, considering how your average necron unit will die in CC anyway.
His augmentation ability would be nice...if it didn't have a chance of buffing your warriors/immortals to S5, which is absolutely useless. S5 is only good in CC, which is the last place where you want your troops to be.

Res Orb - I hardly use them, really. However, they are a must for lychguard and praetorian squads imo, who need that extra bit of staying power.

In my opinion, the two best named HQ's available (I've play tested them all EXCEPT the Orikan diviner, but I will at some point).

Vanguard obyron, BUT you have to know how to use him.
For example, In the ork match last night I GWM him and his unit (5 immortals and a cryptek) behind the enemies main line behind a load of boys and a few other things (warp cannon).
*The cryptek is there to cover obyrons main weakness, no INV save, if obyron drops, on the RP I can use the chronomentron to re-roll the RP, not as good as an INV but better than nothing, or if I wanted I could re-roll an armour save
Now I'd done a risk assmement before hand, and I knew this gave th enemy 2 choices, either ignore him there, or split of some of his force to deal with him, after all h was my warlord and some juicy VP would be nice (We play in a league)

He thought, pfft, necrons I'll assault, thanks to cleaving counterblow Obyron had 9, strength 7 attacks. HE lost the combat, failed leadership, and got run down.

Now I'm aware, for most people, on paper, Obyron is a bad choice, and I think for most people its a case of treating him as a trump card, last turn, teleport to an objective with a scoring unit...

Immotek the storm lord:
Now, yes... 225 points is a horrendous amount to pay, plus you need chronometron tek for re-rolling night.
Yes night has been nerfed a little, but in such a way where it effects only 2 weapons for necrons that are over 36'.
He is hard to put down, he just refuses to die, he makes a great tarpit and meatshield.
His staff of the destroyer is great, walk up to tough units, bam. (its one shot only)
4+ Seize the initive can offer a great tactical advantage.
Lord of the storm... roll D6 for every unit on the opponents side (not in combat) and on a 6, D6 S8 AP5 hits, every turn its night, I've dropped nice things with this.

The blood swarm nano scarabs? pointless, flayed ones are actually the necrons worst unit.
You have to treat immotek as a support specialist, dealing damage per turn, keeping all the massive range things at bay (battle cannons etc ) while possibly chipping away at the army each turn, he can offer a good tarpit to any units getting close, and worst case can obliterate mot things with his one shot staff (works simular to the death ray).

The most important thing is to NOT sit him at the back, he is just wasting his points that way, get him running errands.


I imagine everyone here will probably massively disagree with me, since immotek is not very popular.

I am liking Imotekh at the moment. Good for first blood and a target for kill the warlord that is difficult to kill.

Obyron is fun, but I don't know, in your example, Kikojui, you'd need to bring another overlord in order to get the cryptek, and the sweeping advance is only possible because of orks' low initiative... and that he didn't get fearless from mobs rule. Obviously, against most marines armies, he'd still be ok-ish, instead of sweeping advance, you can just teleport away with his special mantle. There is also the risk of the unit losing combat leading to him getting swept instead, at I2, I think most armies would struggle to lose sweeping advance.

Also you forgot to mention how he's almost invincible in combat, only DE has high I AP2 CC weapons, everyone else with AP2 CC weapons has to strike after, or at the same time, as him.

I'm not saying he's absolutely terrible, but just ... probably not the best. He's kinda like his bf, nemesor(they're in that kinda relationship, right?), in the right setup, against the right opponent, his counter/adaptive tactics will save the day, but against the wrong army, his counter tactics wouldn't be as useful. So I wouldn't say an HQ that is situational good at something the best, I'd consider a HQ the bestestest when he can be good at any time.

As for using him to teleport a scoring unit to objective, well, wouldn't it be cheaper to run despairtek with VoD instead?

MadmanMSU wrote:

Response to last bit:
I'm not a fan of list copying, I'd rather do the experimenting, analysis and refining of my own, its most of the fun.

Agreing on that part... It's always fun trying new stuff!

Baronyu wrote:
Obyron is fun, but I don't know, in your example, Kikojui, you'd need to bring another overlord in order to get the cryptek, and the sweeping advance is only possible because of orks' low initiative... and that he didn't get fearless from mobs rule. Obviously, against most marines armies, he'd still be ok-ish, instead of sweeping advance, you can just teleport away with his special mantle. There is also the risk of the unit losing combat leading to him getting swept instead, at I2, I think most armies would struggle to lose sweeping advance.

Also you forgot to mention how he's almost invincible in combat, only DE has high I AP2 CC weapons, everyone else with AP2 CC weapons has to strike after, or at the same time, as him.

I'm not saying he's absolutely terrible, but just ... probably not the best. He's kinda like his bf, nemesor(they're in that kinda relationship, right?), in the right setup, against the right opponent, his counter/adaptive tactics will save the day, but against the wrong army, his counter tactics wouldn't be as useful. So I wouldn't say an HQ that is situational good at something the best, I'd consider a HQ the bestestest when he can be good at any time.

As for using him to teleport a scoring unit to objective, well, wouldn't it be cheaper to run despairtek with VoD instead?

Yeah correct on all the points, I was using the orks as an example, but I've thought up a good way to describe what I meant.

Obyron is a very flexible unit, he covers two of necrons big weaknesses, CC and maneuverability.

Example: To the average person, if you pass them a cleaver they will think its for hacking meat. Pass it to a decent chinese chef, its a vegetable peeler, a fish filleter and basically the only knife tool they need.
Basically, obyron is flexible and massively adaptable, but in the hands of a player who cannot see how adaptable he is or adapt mid game, he will be a CC unit that is point heavy.
As or a veil tek, of course you could take one, but why not take one as well as obyron.

And yes if you run him, ideally you also want a Overlord priced a little higher (so that obyron is not the warlord, you don't want risky tactics attached to a Victory point).

With the change to power weapons and this whole "unusual power/force weapon" business, obyron did indeed become a much more viable CC option for necrons, since he doesn't have an invul but does have the 2+ save (which didn't do crap for him in 5th, ultimately).

Still though, I'd much rather take zahndrekh simply because he compliments more of the army and makes your forces more adaptable to a multitude of situations. Need a tank taken out? Give some gauss wielders Tank Hunter. About to get charged and you know it? Give your guys counter attack or hit and run. Going to charge? Hit 'em up with furious charge.

Imotekh is also definitely nice but once that lightning wears off, his glamor has too.

Personally, I don't consider a Warrior blob, even with an Overlord, a "CC" unit. Anrakyr's buff or not, they don't do it for me, so I consider Szeras a giant waste of points. YMMV.

Szeras - No, just no. He's a harbinger of destruction that's about 45 points more than normal, and he comes with the gaze of flame...which is a pretty useless piece of gear, considering how your average necron unit will die in CC anyway.
His augmentation ability would be nice...if it didn't have a chance of buffing your warriors/immortals to S5, which is absolutely useless. S5 is only good in CC, which is the last place where you want your troops to be.

Once you give them 5 strength and defensive grenades and either Phaeron (for Warriors) or Phyrrian (for Immortals), and attach a suitable court member, they are a CC unit. At least, relative to 95% of the troops CC units in the game. They could easily handle ASM, Grey Hunters, Gaunts, Wyches, etc. Now, it's also a pricey unit, no doubt, but Necrons really need an aggressive, can get dirty in your enemies deployment zone, scoring option. Either one of these stacks up pretty well in this regard.

A Destrotek with Gaze is 45 points. Szeras has +1 Wound, +1 Save, and + 3 Attacks, and the augment ability. If you give his statline buffs a cost of say, 15 points, then your paying 40 points for the augment, or 4/Immortal (10) 2/Warrior(20). Thats...about right. Maybe a little on the expensive side for the Immortals, but when you combine it with Anraykr and Tesla you start rounding out a pretty solid, flexible unit. 10xS5 Tesla Shots and then 20xS6 attacks on the charge (minus casualties)? That puts you into double T against T3 territory, and can reasonably damage TMC territory. Throw in some Warscythe love and I'm not sure upon what metric you can objectionably say this unit isn't quite respectable in CC.

And in a TAC environment, any army that doesn't have a 3+ armor save makes them a waste. Re: Destroyers

I don't know if I would call it a "waste." 200 points worth of Destroyers throw out 7.56 Wounds (before saves) against guard versus 8.33 for 10 Tesla Immortals. Now, add to this fact that the Destroyers can use their superior mobility to get past cover, and are still Gauss weapons for that added anti-vehicle flexibility, and they are basically on par with each other (10 Gauss Immortals only cause about 5.56 wounds). Now, granted, the Immortals score, so I guess in some sense you could lament in this situation that you didn't have more scoring Immortals, but the point is that still deliver the good here. 2 Tesla Destructors, also a similar cost, also do 8.33 Wounds, so again, same ballpark, but AP - so they are always gonna get there save. Anyway, just trying to illustrate that in the rare case that you aren't facing any 3+, the Destroyers are still going to pull their weight. Really, the fact is they more then pull their weight when you are facing a 3+.

That being said, I personally like the 3xHeavy2xDestroyer combo best. It really just melts anything it looks at, Term, MeQ, Mech, etc.

ShadarLogoth wrote:
I don't know if I would call it a "waste." 200 points worth of Destroyers throw out 7.56 Wounds (before saves) against guard versus 8.33 for 10 Tesla Immortals. Now, add to this fact that the Destroyers can use their superior mobility to get past cover, and are still Gauss weapons for that added anti-vehicle flexibility, and they are basically on par with each other (10 Gauss Immortals only cause about 5.56 wounds). Now, granted, the Immortals score, so I guess in some sense you could lament in this situation that you didn't have more scoring Immortals, but the point is that still deliver the good here. 2 Tesla Destructors, also a similar cost, also do 8.33 Wounds, so again, same ballpark, but AP - so they are always gonna get there save. Anyway, just trying to illustrate that in the rare case that you aren't facing any 3+, the Destroyers are still going to pull their weight. Really, the fact is they more then pull their weight when you are facing a 3+.

That being said, I personally like the 3xHeavy2xDestroyer combo best. It really just melts anything it looks at, Term, MeQ, Mech, etc.

re: Destroyers vs. Immortals

Assumption: both units can use their mobility to get into optimal range. Destroyers have jump packs, Immortals have Night Scythes.

In a 200 point unit, 5 Destroyers average 7.56 wounds vs GEQ and 6.04 wounds versus MEQ.

5 Destroyers * 2 shots each = 10 shots * (4/6 + (4/6 * 1/6)) = 7.77 hits
GEQ: 7.77 * (5/6 + (5/6 * 1/6)) = 7.56 wounds
MEQ: 7.77 * (4/6 + (4/6 * 1/6)) = 6.04 wounds

In a 200 point unit, 11 Immortals (rapid fire gauss) average wounds vs GEQ and 6.04 wounds versus MEQ.

11 Immortals * 2 shots each = 22 shots * (4/6) = 14.66 hits
GEQ: 14.66 * (5/6) = 12.22 wounds
MEQ: 14.66 * (4/6) = 9.77 wounds

Against 2+ armor: Immortals win because they do more wounds.
Against 3+ armor: Destroyers win because they're AP 3.
Against 4+ armor: Immortals win because they're AP4 and they do more wounds.
Against 5+ armor: Immortals win because they're AP4 and they do more wounds.
Against 6+ armor: Immortals win because they're AP4 and they do more wounds.

And Immortals are scoring. And they bring Night Scythes to the table. And they aren't 40 points a piece, so losing one doesn't hurt as much.

So...in a TAC environment, I would (and do) take Immortals every time.

Addendum: This isn't to say that Destroyers don't have their place, I just want to be very clear....Destroyers have a very specific purpose. Taking out 3+ armor. That's it. Given the above, I think my previous statement still stands. If you face an army without any 3+ armor saves, they're a big waste of points.

Except the majority of armies out there are MEQ based.
Of course, YMMV.

And Destroyers can also kill vehicles and 2+ armor. That's what the heavy gauss cannons are for.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Except the majority of armies out there are MEQ based.
Of course, YMMV.

This is true. But now we're not talking about a TAC environment, are we? In that case, you should be comparing Destroyers to other units that are designed for taking out 3+ armor. Not immortals. You want to compare Destroyers to Doom Scythes? Pretty sure the Doom Scythe will win, every time.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
And Destroyers can also kill vehicles and 2+ armor. That's what the heavy gauss cannons are for.

Again, Heavy Gauss Destroyers are not in the same category as regular Destroyers. You would have to compare Heavy Gauss to other Necron options for taking out vehicles and 2+ armor. Oh look, Doom Scythes!

The death ray can only hit targets in a straight line. The doom scythe also AV11, meaning that a lucky autocannon hit can put it down.

Destroyers can not be put down by a lucky autocannon hit, and their don't have the same restrictions as the death ray.

Oh, and unlike the Doom Scythe, you can have the destroyers on the table on turn 1, destroyers are denial units and they can take objectives in the scouring. Destroyers also do not have their movement limited.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
The death ray can only hit targets in a straight line.

Yep. And it's only an average of 10 inches long. Hope I don't hit a crap ton of other things at the same time with it...

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Destroyers can not be put down by a lucky autocannon hit

Um....Yes they can?

You've had games where your 5 man destroyer squad was killed by 1 autocannon hit? I think you've been playing it wrong

And in 6th, its important to have board presence. Destroyers can give you that board presence, and they can deny objectives.

You won't actually that many things with the Death Scythe...unless your opponent somehow decided to clump all his vehicles and termies in one spot.
I have never played a game where I thought "huh, you know, that's a good cluster of targets there for the death scythe."
In fact, once your opponent find out what the death scythe could do, they will just spread out their forces to minimize the damage.

Now, the Doom Scythe is good at killing squadrons, single AV10-11 vehicles (thanks to the destructor) and parking lots. Very good, in fact.
Against heavier vehicles and monsterous creatures, I'd rather use the destroyers thanks to the sheer amount of a High Strength low AP fire they can churn out.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
You've had games where your 5 man destroyer squad was killed by 1 autocannon hit? I think you've been playing it wrong

No, but I've had plenty of games where one Doom Scythe has taken out 5 destroyers.

MadmanMSU wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
You've had games where your 5 man destroyer squad was killed by 1 autocannon hit? I think you've been playing it wrong

No, but I've had plenty of games where one Doom Scythe has taken out 5 destroyers.

I think that's more of a case of your opponent placing his destroyers in a straight line and out of cover, rather than the doom scythe being superior.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
And in 6th, its important to have board presence. Destroyers can give you that board presence, and they can deny objectives.

You won't actually that many things with the Death Scythe...unless your opponent somehow decided to clump all his vehicles and termies in one spot.
I have never played a game where I thought "huh, you know, that's a good cluster of targets there for the death scythe."

Now, the Doom Scythe is good at killing squadrons, single AV10-11 vehicles (thanks to the destructor) and parking lots. Very good, in fact.
Against heavier vehicles and monsterous creatures, I'd rather use the destroyers thanks to the sheer amount of a High Strength low AP fire they can churn out.

But I have. Maybe I'm just better at positioning than you, I don't know, but I've had plenty of games where the Doom Scythe has been clutch. Admittedly, it's a tough thing to learn. Flyers are new to this edition, and they aren't a simple "point and shoot" unit. But with a bit of strategery, they excel. Having a S10 AP1 line that auto-hits anything underneath it is absolutely devastating. AND they have a tesla destructor? AND skyfire? AND they can move 36" with another 12"-24" shooting range for board presence, making almost everywhere on the board a potential target?

I'll take two.

MadmanMSU wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
And in 6th, its important to have board presence. Destroyers can give you that board presence, and they can deny objectives.

You won't actually that many things with the Death Scythe...unless your opponent somehow decided to clump all his vehicles and termies in one spot.
I have never played a game where I thought "huh, you know, that's a good cluster of targets there for the death scythe."

Now, the Doom Scythe is good at killing squadrons, single AV10-11 vehicles (thanks to the destructor) and parking lots. Very good, in fact.
Against heavier vehicles and monsterous creatures, I'd rather use the destroyers thanks to the sheer amount of a High Strength low AP fire they can churn out.

But I have. Maybe I'm just better at positioning than you, I don't know, but I've had plenty of games where the Doom Scythe has been clutch. Admittedly, it's a tough thing to learn. Flyers are new to this edition, and they aren't a simple "point and shoot" unit. But with a bit of strategery, they excel. Having a S10 AP1 line that auto-hits anything underneath it is absolutely devastating. AND they have a tesla destructor? AND skyfire? AND they can move 36" with another 12"-24" shooting range for board presence, making almost everywhere on the board a potential target?

I'll take two.

Well, the skyfire only works on the tesla destructor. They errated the Death Ray so it doesn't work on flyers. Still, about 1-12 S7 hits can usually rip of flyers. Flying MC...not so quite, unless he fails grounding, or if it has a terrible save.
I guess I just never felt a need to have a doom scythe in my army. I do use night scythes though, and I can safely say that they are probably the best transport (and deathmark delivery system) in the game.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Well, the skyfire only works on the tesla destructor. They errated the Death Ray so it doesn't work on flyers.I guess I just never felt a need to have a doom scythe in my army. I do use night scythes though, and I can safely say that they are probably the best transport (and deathmark delivery system) in the game.

In my local meta, we've never allowed the line to hit flyers, even before the ruling. That said, the Tesla Destructor works pretty well against flyers. Now, with the new dragon chaos thingy coming out soon, that might all change....

In any case, you definitely don't need Doom Scythes in your army. They still have some pretty big downsides, being fragile and all, as you pointed out. But I think as it stand now, until more ground based skyfire units come out, they're pretty overpowered. The new Chaos codex may shake this up a bit.

Toughtest game I've had so far was against a GK army with IG allies. Had a quad cannon behind an Aegis with camo netting. I've since adjusted my tactics to deal with it, but it was definitely a learning experience.

Actually, I hope that the new standard Chaos Marines have access to Flakk rocket launchers...with allies 'n stuff...

Actualy, the only thing that the Death Ray wont work on now is Zooming Flyers/Swooping FMCs. Which is quite a good array of targets. I have often taken out two or more AVanything targets in a single pass, without even firing the Teslas.

Also, I find that Destroyers are just better than Immortals because they are better at shooting the crap out of things IMHO

Just wanted to point out you were comparing 11 Immortals, which you can't actually run, with an 18" threat range (for rapid fire), with 36" threat range Destroyers. Sure, if they are coming in a Night Scythe, they can pull that off, at lest for one round of shooting. However, if they are coming in a Night Scythe, that means that aren't shooting turn one, and maybe even turn two. They also probably aren't going to enjoy that Rapdi Fire much, as if they are now an obvious, close, target for all your opponents shooting.

The Destroyers on the other hand will be firing from turn one on, and have the superior mobility to stay at max range, and take advantage of LOS blocking terrain and cover to minimize return fire.

Similar things can be said between Heavy D's and Doom Scythes. The Heavy D's can, and often will, shoot all game. They have the range, mobility, and resiliency to pull this off. The Night Scythe is a huge, fragile(ish, if they have competent anti-air) target, that is forced to get in close. It's also forced to sacrifice a minimum of one turn of shooting, often more. Now, don't get me wrong, it's still a bad mama-jama, particularly against Meched up forces with minimal anit-air. But against horde based armies (because they can use their footprint to force you off the board, and you're gonna kill what, 4 or 5 bases a turn when you can shoot?), or armies with strong, competent, anti-air, it struggles to pull its weight.

I used a Doom Scythe in a game against some Elysians. It took down 3 Vendettas and a Valkyrie before getting shot down. (Note, this was pre FAQ, so the Death ray worked.)

Why does everyone hate on szeras so much? I use him all the time. Do not underestimate 20 toughness 5 warriors, or even Str 5 warriors in assault. That is a unit my gaming group hates, zip around using obyron and szeras gives then defensive nades plus zandrekh gives counter attack. Do that means you get shot 40 times, then try to assault and get overwatch with 40 shots,.lose your charge bonus and the warriors get an attack bonus putting them at 40 attacks. Yea he certainly sucks...not to mention he comes with an Eldritch lance...

 Dave-c wrote:
Why does everyone hate on szeras so much? I use him all the time. Do not underestimate 20 toughness 5 warriors, or even Str 5 warriors in assault. That is a unit my gaming group hates, zip around using obyron and szeras gives then defensive nades plus zandrekh gives counter attack. Do that means you get shot 40 times, then try to assault and get overwatch with 40 shots,.lose your charge bonus and the warriors get an attack bonus putting them at 40 attacks. Yea he certainly sucks...not to mention he comes with an Eldritch lance...

I think its because hes 100pts and dosent open up a court.

I actually never even looked at his rules. I think I may need to try that out a couple of times.

Szeras blocks a HQ slot that does not unlock a Royal Court, he is a costly Destrok, his ability has a 33% chance of being crap (+S on Warriors, awesome.).

I do get the point of "Hey, S5 is better than nothing yo!". Yet...that's not what I get him for. Nobody buys Szeras to get stronger Necron Warriors, you want the +1T/BS. He is overpriced.

Just for the sake of comparison: Zandrekhh's abilities cost 5 (FIVE) points. All of them. Together.

For ~60 points, Szeras would be cool, but 100 is too much. Also...19,50€ for a 100 points model? Not going to happen GW.

Have you even tried using him?

I ask because you are right, 33% of his upgrades are useless, but you dont seem to see the right one. The BS5 upgrade is the least useful of the upgrades, it equates to one or two extra hits per turn.

When i roll str 5 i shoot at their long range and use them for assault at close range, str 5 is not to be underrated in assaults!

It doesnt seem that you completely understand the best way to use him, so dont trash him without trying!

Just my two cents.

S5 on Necron warriors is not a decent stat. BS 5 equates to extra hits, which then goes on to giving a greater chance of getting those all so important glances on any vehicle, regardless of AV. Against infantry Warriors are much more limited. S4 Gauss ain't all that and Warriors (even the S5 variety) aren't that great in assault. Sure they may stand up to a tac squad a bit better, but when you forked out 260pts for 20 Warriors and 100pts for Szeras you should. Any decent dedicated assault unit will still tear you up.

If you want a decent assault unit try Wraiths/Praetorians with an attached D. Lord with all the bells and whistles. They are both units that are Fearless which is much more potent than in 5th and the D.Lord gives them the extra punch both units lack. I don't want to go into a debate about Flayed Ones as they are not a unit I will ever use and thus can't really comment on.

I'm personally into fliers, though my relationship with them began in 5th. Scythes in 6th just became better so I'm actually sitting pretty at the moment. I personally favour using Deathmarks with attached Despair teks and Warriors with Voltaic Staff teks all coming out of Scythes. Follow them up with a few Doom Scythes and some resilient stuff to start on the board with and you are good to go. It's not the only way forward, but it is competitive and it works for me. If full throttle, competitive, dump all over your opponent is not what you are looking for then you can always try out different combos and sees what works for you. Taking out the Doom Scythes softens the power level of the list nicely.

My issue with szeras, personally, is his stats. Stupid as it may be, I just can't see paying 100 points for a 2 wound immortal that has more attacks in assault (which I don't get WHY he gets so many base attacks when he should never be in assault). Yes I know you should be cushioning him with some other squad, but he's just so frikken weak I don't think I could see ever taking him. At least orikan will hulk out during the game and has an AP 2 CC weapon. I've actually fielded him against nids and he destroyed a number of MC's in CC, it was glorious.

 Lukus83 wrote:
I personally favour using Deathmarks with attached Despair teks and Warriors with Voltaic Staff teks all coming out of Scythes.

Can-openers & Man-openers.
Replace the Warriors with Immortals, and we're on the same page (personally, I don't play a game without them, now).
I just wish I had more Scythes, so I could employ more of them fekkers...

 Sigvatr wrote:
Szeras blocks a HQ slot that does not unlock a Royal Court, he is a costly Destrok, his ability has a 33% chance of being crap (+S on Warriors, awesome.).

I do get the point of "Hey, S5 is better than nothing yo!". Yet...that's not what I get him for. Nobody buys Szeras to get stronger Necron Warriors, you want the +1T/BS. He is overpriced.

Just for the sake of comparison: Zandrekhh's abilities cost 5 (FIVE) points. All of them. Together.

For ~60 points, Szeras would be cool, but 100 is too much. Also...19,50€ for a 100 points model? Not going to happen GW.

The only way you'd be disappointed by the Strength upgrade is if you didn't build the unit right. If you design the unit planning to get it up close and personal, then your never disappointed by any result. 20 Phaeroned Warriors or 10 Pyrrian Tesla Immortals are happy with either result. These units are designed to get into close combat.

Your pricing is a bit off as well. His statline increase over the norm destrotek with gaze is at least 60 points by itself. Also, he doesn't have the hidden cost of the overlord. So your really paying between 2 to 4 points per model for the upgrade on your troop selection. I think he might be a little over priced, but not more then 10 points or so. Also, it's a bad ass model, what does the point cost have to do with whether or not the model is a good buy?

But once you have spent 360 or 270 points you have to ask yourself why didn't you just use some Wraiths or Praetorians? If you are looking for cc beat sticks I mean.

And I think the points cost of the model certainly factors when making a purchase. After all we do want to actually use them. I do buy some models for the cool factor alone but mostly I buy for their playability.

ShadarLogoth wrote:


The only way you'd be disappointed by the Strength upgrade is if you didn't build the unit right. If you design the unit planning to get it up close and personal, then your never disappointed by any result. 20 Phaeroned Warriors or 10 Pyrrian Tesla Immortals are happy with either result. These units are designed to get into close combat.

If you plan to let Warriors get up close and personal, your army list is flawed. Neither Warriors nor Immortals are designed to be in melee, that's a downright wrong assumption. Wraiths, LG, Scarabs, FO, Destroyer Lords and C'Tan shards and TP are designed to be in melee. The rest of our codex is not designed to get in melee, in the contrary.

 Lukus83 wrote:
But once you have spent 360 or 270 points you have to ask yourself why didn't you just use some Wraiths or Praetorians? If you are looking for cc beat sticks I mean.

And I think the points cost of the model certainly factors when making a purchase. After all we do want to actually use them. I do buy some models for the cool factor alone but mostly I buy for their playability.

Because they are not scoring....I mean, you can have them too...but it's nice having a scoring option that can tangle in CC.

If you plan to let Warriors get up close and personal, your army list is flawed.

Not if you design them for that. A well tooled Phaeroned blob is plenty competent in CC. Period. There's no reason in pretending its not when it is, and their is no reason to not use it for those purposes. If you plan on out gunning every army you face and forfeiting opposing objectives to them, that is a flawed design. And you can't just rely out Night Scythes either (largely because if your going first...you lose). Take a good look at the Nova results and tell me how many Scythe spam armies (and their were a lot that showed up) finished in the top 16. You need an aggressive, scoring, unit to compete at the highest level. You can either Ally them in or you can make them yourself using the tools in the codex. The whole reason Phaeron exists (as it was the last "5th" edition codex and they were quite aware of the rapid fire changes) as well as Tesla being assault is to give Necrons this flexibility.

Overlord+Court+Phaeron/Tesla makes a very competent CC unit. I don't understand how anybody can argue otherwise.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Neither Warriors nor Immortals are designed to be in melee, that's a downright wrong assumption. Wraiths, LG, Scarabs, FO, Destroyer Lords and C'Tan shards and TP are designed to be in melee. The rest of our codex is not designed to get in melee, in the contrary.

So they gave them Phaeron and Assault weapons and Royal Court members with CC upgrade because...

Edit: Sorry Sig, the original (if you saw it) came out more argumentative then I intended it.

Ask Fennel if his crons fear CC sometime. The tools are there. You can choose not to take the tools and have ineffective scoring options, or you can take them and win games.

Now, this isn't to say they are world beater against every CC enemy you might face, but 40 Rapid Fair Gauss Followed by 40 (minus casualties) CC attacks+Warscythe and MSS (or two) will be more then enough when facing things like Grey Hunters, or ASM, or even Genies.

Gonna try to structure that a bit:

> Tesla are Assault Weapons

Tesla are Assault Weapons for balance alone. Rapid Fire would make them overpowered, Heavy would make them terrible. Furthermore, be aware of the fact that the coxe was still released in 5th.

Attacking with Tesla Immortals is a terrible, terrible idea. Tesla excels at Overwatch and by attacking first, you hardly gain momentum whereas Overwatch on a full unit of Tesla Immortals will provide you with about 6 S5 hits that are 3+ to wound on most targets...not to mention that by deciding not to go melee, you can keep dancing around, always shooting at exactly 24''. In most cases, you get at least 1 additional shooting phase which is worth a LOT more.

> The Phaeron upgrade

Mainly in the codex because of the release in 5th. 20 points is ridiculous for an upgrade that virtually does nothing unless you plan to go in close combat. In case of Tesla Immortals, that's a bad idea, as provided above. In case of a Warrior blob, that certainly is a different case. You still lose on Overwatch yet you'd only miss out on about 3 S4 hits while at the same time, you'd gain about 10 additional S4 hits if you engage. At the same time, though, you have to be careful with what you assault in order to not lose too much on Overwatch. The problem, however, is that from that point on, you're in melee...

> Scythes didn't do that well in NOVA

You make a simple mistake here, a common one though. Your point is that CC Necron troops are viable and tried to back your point up by pointing at Scythe-spam. That's not a valid argument. You'd have to show that cc is effective, not that another list isn't I did not have a look at the NOVA results yet (army list wise) so I'd be glad if you could point to a thread / source where I can have a look at the results.

> Scythes in general

I agree with your point of one being in need of a solid core to defend objectives - yet again, a CC unit isn't going to cut it. If you are in melee, you cannot hold the objective as it's contested at the same time. Scythes, however, excel at providing your army with a stong core. They allow you to fly 24'' and still unload its content...that can still shoot normally! While at the same time, your troops are protected in a vehicle.

> 'crons in melee

I2. That's the point that matters the most. In most cc situations, Necrons will strike last and thus suffer casualties before their enemies will, reducing their overall strength. What's really bad about that, however, is that losing a fight even once is highly likely to wipe the entire squad off the table. Anyway, in melee, they aren't that bad vs. a tactical squad. They have a similar statline yet a worse armor save, terrible I and, unfortunately, not the now ridiculous immunity to being overrun. The decisive factor is the Lord with his warscythe...and the squad would fare well. However, it does come at the hefty price tag of 410 points. Just a full squad with an Overlord and Phaeron upgrade. You can get far, far better melee squads at the very same price or even less - while not being scoring, it would contest the objective and wreck the 'crons. Spending even more points on the unit, thus making it 500+ points would make it more expensive than some deathstars while not even being close to their power.

See, my point isn't that 'crons cannot be "good" in cc by all means...they can certainly win fights and become a competent cc unit (while not being even remotely close to the "highest level" as you put it). It's just that you spend a LOT of points on a unit that isn't meant for cc. Necron Warriors are meant to take vehicles down. If you want anti-infantry power, you get Tesla weaponry (AB and Immortals), not Gauss.

Oh, and don't worry about the tone or sth., that's the thing I hate about the internet...well, one of 'em. I also sound pretty hostile or passive-agressive sometimes, yet be assured that I am not and do not try to be. It's just what written text usualyl does unless you throw a lot of smileys in...and if you do, it looks slowed. meh.

As far as the warrior blobs go, you could vasty increase their shooting with Stalker if you are interested. 40 Twin Linked Gauss Flayer shots, paired with a phearon lord, charge with 40 melee attacks...would be completely disgusting. I cant think of many units that can weather that kind of fire power.

I love destroyers; I always send them off on the first turn to hunt tanks and more often than not will glance and penetrate them in that turn (much to my opponents rage) before inevitably getting assaulted to their doom.

You know, I am probably the only person here who prefers to give his immortals gauss instead of tesla.
I dunno why, I just do.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
You know, I am probably the only person here who prefers to give his immortals gauss instead of tesla.
I dunno why, I just do.

All I have ever used are units with Gauss. Tesla is great, but I'll leave it to the Destructors. I'd rather rapid fire and glance.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
You know, I am probably the only person here who prefers to give his immortals gauss instead of tesla.
I dunno why, I just do.

I did the same but realized it's ineffective. Gauss is meant to be used in mass in order to get those shiny 6s off thus I'd much rather spam Warriors instead of using Immortals with Gauss - but that's because I mainly play shooty 'crons along with a few Wraiths to back me up.

Tesla are Assault Weapons for balance alone. Rapid Fire would make them overpowered, Heavy would make them terrible. Furthermore, be aware of the fact that the coxe was still released in 5th.

Attacking with Tesla Immortals is a terrible, terrible idea. Tesla excels at Overwatch and by attacking first, you hardly gain momentum whereas Overwatch on a full unit of Tesla Immortals will provide you with about 6 S5 hits that are 3+ to wound on most targets...not to mention that by deciding not to go melee, you can keep dancing around, always shooting at exactly 24''. In most cases, you get at least 1 additional shooting phase which is worth a LOT more.

If you have a full squad of 10, it's closer to 4.5 S5 hits then it is 6, but that's a fair point. However, it's still only going to kill maybe one guy, where as the differential between you assaulting, and them not assaulting (unless they have defensive grenades and or counter attack), can very often be a much bigger difference then just one guy. Also, if you have the punch loaded up, say WS/MSS Lord, or they ar Pyrrian's, then you start having more and more reasons justifying an assault.

Mainly in the codex because of the release in 5th. 20 points is ridiculous for an upgrade that virtually does nothing unless you plan to go in close combat. In case of Tesla Immortals, that's a bad idea, as provided above. In case of a Warrior blob, that certainly is a different case. You still lose on Overwatch yet you'd only miss out on about 3 S4 hits while at the same time, you'd gain about 10 additional S4 hits if you engage. At the same time, though, you have to be careful with what you assault in order to not lose too much on Overwatch. The problem, however, is that from that point on, you're in melee...

I don't agree with it being a 5th hold over at all. It gives Necron troops exactly what they need to become formidable assault units. And really, between your rapid fire shots, your assault attacks, and your Warscythes/MSS, you'll beat most units in their phase of CC. Which is exactly what you want to do.

You make a simple mistake here, a common one though. Your point is that CC Necron troops are viable and tried to back your point up by pointing at Scythe-spam. That's not a valid argument. You'd have to show that cc is effective, not that another list isn't I did not have a look at the NOVA results yet (army list wise) so I'd be glad if you could point to a thread / source where I can have a look at the results.

Sorry, I didn't really communicate my point. What I was hinting at is, if your contingency for taking backfield objectives rests solely on beaming down with scythes late in the game, that's a fairly bad plan. You need scoring bodies that aren't afraid to get close to the enemy. Also, there was a thread in the tournie section just after Nova, I'll see if I can find it.

I agree with your point of one being in need of a solid core to defend objectives - yet again, a CC unit isn't going to cut it. If you are in melee, you cannot hold the objective as it's contested at the same time. Scythes, however, excel at providing your army with a stong core. They allow you to fly 24'' and still unload its content...that can still shoot normally! While at the same time, your troops are protected in a vehicle.

The idea is to get there early with a competent CC squad, push anything that is holding the objective off, then bust out the pic-a-nic baskets.

I2. That's the point that matters the most. In most cc situations, Necrons will strike last and thus suffer casualties before their enemies will, reducing their overall strength. What's really bad about that, however, is that losing a fight even once is highly likely to wipe the entire squad off the table.

Kabalite Warriors ar I5. TH/SS Terms are I1. Who would you take in a fight? Also, Crons are Leadership 10. While not as awesome as ATSKNF, its better then stubborn LD 8 guardsmen (thinking blobs here), at least up until losing combat by 2. Leadership 10 is a solid stat. Also, don't pick fights you don't think your going to win. If they're bigger then you, back up/strafe and shoot. If you're bigger then them, step forward, double tap, and charge. The solution you're advocating only has the former, the latter is a very valuable option.

Anyway, in melee, they aren't that bad vs. a tactical squad. They have a similar statline yet a worse armor save, terrible I and, unfortunately, not the now ridiculous immunity to being overrun. The decisive factor is the Lord with his warscythe...and the squad would fare well. However, it does come at the hefty price tag of 410 points. Just a full squad with an Overlord and Phaeron upgrade. You can get far, far better melee squads at the very same price or even less - while not being scoring, it would contest the objective and wreck the 'crons. Spending even more points on the unit, thus making it 500+ points would make it more expensive than some deathstars while not even being close to their power.

I think you're really undesrtimating how hard 40 rapid fire shots followed by 40 (minus cassualties) attacks hit. Slap in a couple of Warscythes and MSS and you have can kill 10 TH/SS termie stopping power. Or 20 Genies. Or 15 Wyches. I mean, short of a Pallystar, this unit could handle quite a bit in CC.

See, my point isn't that 'crons cannot be good in cc by all means...they can certainly win fights and become a competent cc unit (while not being even remotely close to the highest level; as you put it). It's just that you spend a LOT of points on a unit that isn't meant for cc. Necron Warriors are meant to take vehicles down. If you want anti-infantry power, you get Tesla weaponry (AB and Immortals), not Gauss.

See above. Any unit that can step forward and take out 10 TH/SS Termies or 20 Genies or I don't know, give me something else to consider...? Is a pretty damn good CC unit. MCs? Thats what the MSS and WS are for. ICs as well. Really, you're not giving this unit the credit it deserves.

Now, I'm not saying go charging headlong into a green tide or bugs. You still have strong shooting, and well out shoot most CC units. Use it as needed and spacing allows. But when that unit that has taken a turn or two of strafed or back pedaled Gauss Shots gets 12" away from you, you step forward, double tap that face, and assault. Big Blobs of Phaeroned Warriors are absolutely lethal when they get close to something. Not just so-so, but kick you in the face lethal. 80 attacks man. 80. S4. (minus cassualties) 2 Warscythes. 2 MSS. This is legit CC here. And most importantly, its strong shooting too. Pick a flank, march your way on that flank, and brutalize anything that gets close. Your not paying 410 (or really upwards of 500+ for what I'm advocating with Szeras) for just a goodish CC unit, you're paying for a scoring unit that is a nightmare to shoot down (with Ghost Arc support, Res orb, etc), and will poop slap you if you get close. Plus, you have to by one of those HQ's anyway, so their are some fixed costs in there as well. Try it out. At least on paper. Roll it off against some thing you often face. Something like:

Phaeron/Res Orb/WS/SW/MSS 170 (Imo and Trazyn can be slotted here, it breaks my heart to do it with Trazyn though, seems like a waist of his scoring potential)
Szeras 100 (Roll off any trait, you'll start to see how all 3 are pretty decent in this unit)
20 Blob 260
Lord MSS/WS/SW 75 (or Chrono with Imo)

The second lord is even a bit superfluous. You could easily go with a Transtek or Stormtek instead, save a few points. I do like having him to tank challenges so the Phaeron doesn't get stuck in something he can't handle if his MSS fails though. Pricey? Sure. But it makes up the anchor of your troops selection. Again, this is a unit that you either can count on surviving and cap its objective, or know that if it did die your oponent had to poor a truck load of firepower at it to take it down.

Oh, and don't worry about the tone or sth., that's the thing I hate about the internet...well, one of 'em. I also sound pretty hostile or passive-agressive sometimes, yet be assured that I am not and do not try to be. It's just what written text usualyl does unless you throw a lot of smileys in...and if you do, it looks slowed. meh.

heh, no doubt.

The issue isn't that warriors/immortals can be "ok" in close combat, it's that for what you're putting in the squad with them (Lords, crypteks, overlords, gear, blah blah) it is MUCH MUCH better suited to go into a squad of lychguard, praetorians, flayed ones (to a lesser extent), wraiths (to a lesser extent)...

Or quite honestly, a c'tan with gaze of death + whatever other power is about the same price as everything you're bringing up and would be better at it than them.

 Kevin949 wrote:
The issue isn't that warriors/immortals can be "ok" in close combat, it's that for what you're putting in the squad with them (Lords, crypteks, overlords, gear, blah blah) it is MUCH MUCH better suited to go into a squad of lychguard, praetorians, flayed ones (to a lesser extent), wraiths (to a lesser extent)...

Or quite honestly, a c'tan with gaze of death + whatever other power is about the same price as everything you're bringing up and would be better at it than them.

But it's much more then OK at CC. And again, you're only spending a fraction of that on CC. You have to buy an HQ no matter what. The rest you're spending on scoring, gauss flayer shooting, res orbed warriors. They are Warriors that also punch some face if you get close. They don't stop being Warriors, and doing the things that Warriors do. Primarily, scoring.

Now, I'm not advocating against anything you suggested, but when you go that route you never end up with a scoring CC threat. (Except if you slap Trazyn in with the LG, which is a notion I'm quite fond of actually). For that reason, I'm not sure how you can suggest the gear is much better suited elsewhere. Nowhere else can you take 40 Rapid Fire Shots and augment them with 40 CC attacks. No where else can you give 20 bodies a res orb (well, except the Flayed Ones). The great thing about the blob is you're multiplying that synergy accross a giant chunk of models.

ShadarLogoth wrote:

 Kevin949 wrote:
The issue isn't that warriors/immortals can be "ok" in close combat, it's that for what you're putting in the squad with them (Lords, crypteks, overlords, gear, blah blah) it is MUCH MUCH better suited to go into a squad of lychguard, praetorians, flayed ones (to a lesser extent), wraiths (to a lesser extent)...

Or quite honestly, a c'tan with gaze of death + whatever other power is about the same price as everything you're bringing up and would be better at it than them.

But it's much more then OK at CC. And again, you're only spending a fraction of that on CC. You have to buy an HQ no matter what. The rest you're spending on scoring, gauss flayer shooting, res orbed warriors. They are Warriors that also punch some face if you get close. They don't stop being Warriors, and doing the things that Warriors do. Primarily, scoring.

Now, I'm not advocating against anything you suggested, but when you go that route you never end up with a scoring CC threat. (Except if you slap Trazyn in with the LG, which is a notion I'm quite fond of actually). For that reason, I'm not sure how you can suggest the gear is much better suited elsewhere. Nowhere else can you take 40 Rapid Fire Shots and augment them with 40 CC attacks. No where else can you give 20 bodies a res orb (well, except the Flayed Ones). The great thing about the blob is you're multiplying that synergy accross a giant chunk of models.

You realize that if your warriors are in close combat there is a very good chance that your enemy is close enough to contest. Also, the fact that they are a scoring unit is one of the primary reasons you should not involve them in the most lethal aspect of this game.

I agree though that against something like a tac squad or similarly inept close combat squad, then ya the warriors are going to do alright. But against competent CC squads, the warriors are still going to be doing very little in comparison to the additional guys/gear you brought to support them. Yes, on a charge and considering things go well, you're looking at a typical average of (max squad) 20 hits, 10 wounds (assuming 4 to hit, 4 to wound). That's assuming the squad is still full strength, which it won't be.

Lets say, in a typical scenario of a 20 man squad you lose 7 by the time you get in CC (including those lost at the beginning of assault prior to RP). So, with FC and all that other business, you're looking at 4+ to hit and 2+ to wound, on average. Right? So, that's about what, 11 wounds? While still respectable, on the charge, you're only looking at about 3 unsaved wounds. Obviously this is assuming going against the prolific marines and not guard or something equally weak (in terms of armor, not army strength). So, the way I see it is all that work was for 3 unsaved wounds on a charge (from just the warriors, I'm not counting the added guys because they can go just about anywhere else so their outcome would be same in any squad). Which will be significantly less every round after that.

Run the same numbers with flayed ones but triple the attacks for everything. They won't be Str 6 on the charge but str 5 is good. The numbers are MUCH better, for an identically priced unit. Yes, it's not scoring, but again necron troops shouldn't necessarily be in combat in the first place. It's not that they're terrible at it, it's just not their place. It's the reason our CC options are actually rather good, despite the low initiative.

I don't necessarily disagree with your mentality Kevin, but I just know from experience that having one solid squad like this can be a real boon to your tactical flexibility. Also, keep in mind that while you might have taken some casualties, the enemy has taken some too, and proportionally more (as you have a 4+/RP 4+, Ghost Arc, not too mention the Overlord wounds to hide behind). The key though, is the rapid fire advance with the charge. If you don't feel reasonably certain that your going to wipe them in two rounds, you don't go for the knock out punch. Just keep your distance, and shoot. That's why you don't end up in CC by the time it takes to claim objectives, by the end of turn 5 the fighting should be done. Picnic time.

Again though, rapid fire. It's a massive part of the equation. If they didn't have the Relentless Gauss Flayers I would absolutely agree with you just stick with the Flayed Ones. But that double tap and then assault makes all the difference in the world. It's almost like 40 I 10 attacks.

ShadarLogoth wrote:
I don't necessarily disagree with your mentality Kevin, but I just know from experience that having one solid squad like this can be a real boon to your tactical flexibility. Also, keep in mind that while you might have taken some casualties, the enemy has taken some too, and proportionally more (as you have a 4+/RP 4+, Ghost Arc, not too mention the Overlord wounds to hide behind). The key though, is the rapid fire advance with the charge. If you don't feel reasonably certain that your going to wipe them in two rounds, you don't go for the knock out punch. Just keep your distance, and shoot. That's why you don't end up in CC by the time it takes to claim objectives, by the end of turn 5 the fighting should be done. Picnic time.

Again though, rapid fire. It's a massive part of the equation. If they didn't have the Relentless Gauss Flayers I would absolutely agree with you just stick with the Flayed Ones. But that double tap and then assault makes all the difference in the world. It's almost like 40 I 10 attacks.

Indeed, it's just a lot of support to pull off something like that. I'm really not doubting your experience with it and I'm sure it can be quite formidable in it's own right.

Yeah no doubt. It's something I kind of evolved into with my Imo list. But now I've kind of gotten use to having at least one solid troop selection maxed out like this. Whether they be 20 Warriors with a Phaeron or 10 Pyrrian (I always buture that spelling) Immortals. Doesn't make all my lists, but it's a comfort zone to have.

If you have the models and the GA's I really suggest giving it a try. You tend to draw a large target on them, which given the inherent resiliency of the whole squad is kind of the idea.

Update on a Szeras game.

Vs nids, rolled str 5. Storm lord with a guard and a prime caught up with me, had lords with mss and scythe, trazyn and 20 warriors. Gave unit furious charge from zandrekh.

Rapid fire, caused some wounds, assaulted and should have won combat with str 6 warriors,but out of mss on the stormlord, 6 warscyth attacks, and 40 str 6 attacks hitting on 4 and wounding on 4, i caused three total wounds, two were saved(mega warscythe fail 1 hit no wounds lol, plus horrible rolling, two attacks out of 40 wounding should have put ten wounds on them) i lost combat. However, numbers wise i should have beaten what in my mind is the best cc unit in the game.

Just another example of how good that unit is, just bad rolling. In my mind i will remember how that should have worked lol.

@shadarlogoth:

I believe you are greatly exaggerating your numbers. You throw around the number of 40 attacks minus casualties, but that is very misleading.

Your assuming that by the time a warrior blob is close enough to a unit to assault it, it still has 20 models.

Even if you assume they are at full strength, they will be shot with overwatch and then hit last in combat all before you get RP at the end of the assault phase.

If that 20 man unit attacked a tac squad, they WILL lose a model or 2 to overwatch, and with a 4+ save they WILL lose several more models to assault. THEN they hit back.... And statistically, they will never get a full 40 attacks. If they lose assault, they have to take the morale check BEFORE RP, and if they fail that test, they are as good as swept with I2... And you get no RP roll.

Your trying to use a shooty unit as an assault unit, and like others have pointed out, by the time you put an overlord with Phaeron, a scythe and a lord in that 20 man unit, you have a very expensive unit that will statistically only do well against small non-assault units that cost MUCH less.

A dedicated assault unit will eat them alive, and a horde unit will tarpit them with a much cheaper costing unit.

 BarBoBot wrote:
@shadarlogoth:

I believe you are greatly exaggerating your numbers. You throw around the number of 40 attacks minus casualties, but that is very misleading.

Your assuming that by the time a warrior blob is close enough to a unit to assault it, it still has 20 models.

Even if you assume they are at full strength, they will be shot with overwatch and then hit last in combat all before you get RP at the end of the assault phase.

If that 20 man unit attacked a tac squad, they WILL lose a model or 2 to overwatch, and with a 4+ save they WILL lose several more models to assault. THEN they hit back.... And statistically, they will never get a full 40 attacks. If they lose assault, they have to take the morale check BEFORE RP, and if they fail that test, they are as good as swept with I2... And you get no RP roll.

Your trying to use a shooty unit as an assault unit, and like others have pointed out, by the time you put an overlord with Phaeron, a scythe and a lord in that 20 man unit, you have a very expensive unit that will statistically only do well against small non-assault units that cost MUCH less.

A dedicated assault unit will eat them alive, and a horde unit will tarpit them with a much cheaper costing unit.

This is mostly false. First, you completely ignoring the 40 rapid fire shots. That is where the combat begins, not at overwatch. Eliminating the biggest punch out of the warriors repertoire completely scews the numbers. Also, sure, you might have taken some casualties before a situation comes up where they are assaulting, but so might have what you are assaulting, and another thing you seem to not understand is a Warrior brick with a res orb backed with GA's is exactly what you want your opponent shooting at. It is, combined with its Overlord, your tank, for all intents and purposes.

Shooty unit with rapid fire assault weapons is an assault unit. Your notion that a "small non-assault unit" is all they can take and a "dedicated assault unit will eat them alive" is completely inaccurate, it only proves that you have neither experimented with this unit in actually games nor run the numbers to see its potential. So, I'll do some of your homework for you:

Tactical marines are a joke, so lets try something with a little more teeth. Say a full 10 squad of Shrikes, two Psycannons as that tends to be the preferred load out.

40 Rapid Fire shots kill 40(2/3)(1/2)(1/3)=4.44 Wait, what's that? You unit is half dead and combat hasn't even started? Oops...I'll round down, give you the benefit of the doubt...

8 Psy shots kill 8(1/6)(5/6) + 6 SB shots 6(1/6)(1/2)(1/2) =1.36 Plus CC 6(1/2)(1/2)=2.86 I'll round up this time. Keep in mind that likely only 2 died in CC. So we have 17 Warriors:

34(1/2)(1/2)(1/3)=2.83 Well, I think I've earned a round up here. So, pretending that the Overlord+Court completely whiff, and not adding in benefit from Szeras (who this conversation started with), really just looking at the Phaeroned Warriors alone, we win combat 3 to 2, and are left with 18 to 19 Warriors after Res Orb versus 3 Shrikes. So please, tell me again how they can only take on "small non-assault units." I'm all ears.

20 warriors, an overlord with Phaeron, Rez orb and scythe is 410 points... How many points is the unit they shot at in your scenario?

If I use 400 points of models to attack 200 points of models, I would expect them to come out on top...

I play necrons and I HAVE ran warrior blobs with overlord/ res orb...

While your warrior blob is slowly marching across the table, units with bikes/wings/jump packs/ cavalry etc. are going to get the charge on you... Every time. You will eat I10 hammer of wrath attacks and then the normal attacks before you get your single I2 attack per warrior.

You WILL lose combat, and you WILL be swept before you even get RP.

If you ever face SW with jotww... You'll wave goodbye to your overlord with orb before they even get to combat... Not to mention how easy it is to snipe models with precision shot or by using vehicles to obscure the rest of the unit leaving the character as the only model able to take wounds from shooting... All so you could take your shooty troop unit and try to make it in your words " better than ok in cc"

Kikojui wrote:
Drop pod armies, from a necron perspective...

I hate drop pod armies.

I've spent an extensive amount of time sorting, playing and modifying lists for my necrons 1500 point bracket army.
and I've settled for something around this (roughly)

3 squads of 20 warriors.
2 lords with res orbs in he flanking squads.
5 destroyers with a destroyer lord (semi weave and res orb)
2 heavy destroyers with Szeras

( mostly because the destroyers are AP3 so no annoying saves from SM which are the majority at my club)
I'm confident with most armies I play, but drop pods destroy me so badly to the point where it feels unfair and almost pointless.

Taking first or second turn yeilds nothing, pods fall, heavy flamers and plasma just rip my troops to pieces.

Necron's work best engaging the enemy at mid range, at close range they are as good as toast no matter the unit (I've tried them all bay the stalker when I'm buying soon)
Do I just accept that I just can't do anything about the drop pods armies or is there something I've overlooked? Also any other necron players have any expirences with drop pod armies?

Last game I played was 3 pods(melta troop heavy) HQ was hestan, a storm talon, a vendetta and 2 chimeras (full or plasma and melta).

Any advice is welcome, for now I'm just going to refuse to play them because to me, I can't do anything but waste a hour watching all my units die.

Ok so kinda on the question drop pods can be a bit crappy to deal with but if your expecting them you can change a great deal to combat them more effecetivly.
Here is how i do it.

First off deploment is deffinetly going to help you if you opponent is going to use a Drop pod list with at least a few drop pods put all your stuff as tight to each other as possible and as close to an edge to prevent a surround which can suck a lot. Next you want to allow yoiur opponent to go first so half his pods have to hit the table which means the marines or w/e are inside cannot assault first turn giving you an advantage to assauslt them first.

Wraiths are what you want to assault with.... no better thing in the army to assault with. With whip coils anything in base contact is going to attack last you have rending and will wound most things on 2s or 3s with 4 attacks on the charge 6 are a dealy force and to make matters even more worse for the opponent if he doesnt take them out which can be an issue with 2 wounds and a 3+ save no matter what. (unless GK have that thing that removes inv. save) if your wraiths get lucky on your first turn the pods occupants will be handled right there and you can move out from there. but again depending on your list and how you play there are deffinetly other ways to handle pod armies if your fairly shooty you can just end them with sheer numbers. as long as the pods can't surround you youll have a much easyer time dealing with them.

20 warriors, an overlord with Phaeron, Rez orb and scythe is 410 points... How many points is the unit they shot at in your scenario?

If I use 400 points of models to attack 200 points of models, I would expect them to come out on top...

First, that's a far cry from your first statement, second, they just aren't coming out on top, they are coming out virtually unscathed, ready to take on another 200 point unit, and then another, and then another...

I play necrons and I HAVE ran warrior blobs with overlord/ res orb...

How many times, once? Because your notions of them couldn't be more inaccurate.

While your warrior blob is slowly marching across the table, units with bikes/wings/jump packs/ cavalry etc. are going to get the charge on you... Every time. You will eat I10 hammer of wrath attacks and then the normal attacks before you get your single I2 attack per warrior.

Simply not true. With back pedaling/strafing, premeasuring, other counter assault units like wraiths, you can very easily dictate when the assault happens against these units. And they are only going to get HoW if you allow them to use their jump packs in the assault phase, which generally means you did something wrong. It's pretty simple, if they start off within 18", you step forward and rapid fire that face, if they start off beyond 18", you step back and unload at max range. With the casualties they take plus potential overwatch, they will be hard pressed to get into assault, and by the time they do they will be so whittled down they will be quite manageable.

You WILL lose combat, and you WILL be swept before you even get RP.

If your bad, or roll horribly, sure that can happen. It can also happen to every other unit in the game. Not much of an argument.

If you ever face SW with jotww... You'll wave goodbye to your overlord with orb before they even get to combat... Not to mention how easy it is to snipe models with precision shot or by using vehicles to obscure the rest of the unit leaving the character as the only model able to take wounds from shooting... All so you could take your shooty troop unit and try to make it in your words " better than ok in cc"

?? jotww is a concern for every single Necron unit. And I don't know how you could possibly mess up placement so poorly that your Overlord is visible and your 20 warriors are not. It's a way above average assault unit that can also shoot. It's ability to shoot, and shoot with force, is what separates it against 95% of the assault units out there. DCA, Genies, TH/SS terms, all can be handled, and handled easily. That is why you invest that level of points into a unit like this, because it can shoot, cc, and score, and is point for point incredibly resilient. It allows you to dictate the terms of engagement with what ever your facing.

Oh you must be right, and all the people that pointed out that necron troops shouldn't be actively seeking combat are wrong right?

So you make a unit worth double the points of their target, and when 400+ points kills 200 points you get the idea that it's because your shooty unit is now a good assault unit because you spent double the points killing the target?

Whoever you playing against are bad players if they are getting assaulted by footslogging necron warriors...

I would love for you to show the math on how 400+ points of your "more than ok in cc" warriors fares against 400+ points instead of your absurd comparisons of 400+ points being good because they killed a 200 point unit...

Oh you must be right, and all the people that pointed out that necron troops shouldn't be actively seeking combat are wrong right?

Yes, exactly. I'm certainly not the only person that understands this. I'm aware their is a prevailing misconception though. I'm also aware that this misconception is based off people making way to big of a deal out of I2 and not looking at the rest of the capabilities in aggregate.

So you make a unit worth double the points of their target, and when 400+ points kills 200 points you get the idea that it's because your shooty unit is now a good assault unit because you spent double the points killing the target?

Seriosly, did you not understand that demonstration at all? The only benefit I gave the Warriors was Phaeron, 10 GKSS with 2 cannons is a lot more then 200 points, and they completely crushed them. Completely. Crush them. Like it wasn't even close. At all. Please re-read that.

Whoever you playing against are bad players if they are getting assaulted by footslogging necron warriors...

/sigh Great. Then my very competent shooting and resilient scoring unit won't get assaulted and will casually make its way to your deployment zone and camp an objective. The whole point of a close combat is to control the battlefield. If you can push your opponent around because they are trying to stay away from a unit like this your a long way towards winning the game.

I would love for you to show the math on how 400+ points of your "more than ok in cc" warriors fares against 400+ points instead of your absurd comparisons of 400+ points being good because they killed a 200 point unit...

Sure. 10 TH/SS termies. 400 points at least, depending on the codex. One of the most feared CC units in the game:

Rapid Fire:
40(2÷3)(1÷2)(1÷6)=2.22 plus CC 40(1/2)(1/2)(1/6)=3.88 plus 7 WS attacks 7(1/2)(5/6)(1/3)= 4.86

We'll say one MSS goes off (our of two) and that rounds the casualties out to and even 5 (3 probably in CC).

5 Termies left, one of which is MSS'ed, 8(1/2)(5/6)=3.33 So the terms might tie CC, or they might win by one (9 or under on 2D6, and terms can't sweep). The Warriors will get 1 or 2 back from RP. Then you have 18 to 19 Warriors, Lord, Overlord, versus 5 Terms:

18(1/2)(1/2)(1/6) + 5(1/2)(5/6)(1/3)=1.44

Again, one MSS goes off leaving the terms with 3, one of which is MSSed:

4(1/2)(5/6)=1.67, again right around a tie in CC, Res Orb kicks in, rinse and repeat till the last 3 die.

So, against one of the most feared CC units in the game, the crons are likely to win, and win BIG. Like with at least half their Warriors still in tact.

In the scenario above though you have given all the advantages to the Necrons, or at least that the Terminator player isn't very good

1. They are in rapid fire range followed by an assault. Now that premeasuring is in it's not too likely this will happen. More likely it would be rapid fire followed by the Terminators assaulting you.

2. You are also assuming all Necron Warriors will get to attack in cc. 20 Warriors + Lord + Overlord will have a hard time getting every model engaged. This is hard to quantify but it really should be assumed that a few models won't be making cc attacks first round.

3. Why would the Terminators let an MSS'ed model not be among the casualties? That would be the first guy to die, so you should really allow for one more terminator to be making attacks.

The math (IMO) in my opinion in this particular case isn't worth doing. I know what Warriors are supposed to do and I let them do it (shoot and hold objectives at range). Late game there may be a need to move closer to the enemy but by that point my shooting should have done it's job...I'm simply now mopping up or following the lead of my dedicated cc units. Sure I can spend 400+ points and make them semi-competent in cc but why would I when there are more efficient ways to spend the points. And wouldn't you rather your opponent was shooting at non-scoring units? I mean Praetorians and Wraiths are absolute killers but another point as to why they are so attractive is because they absorb a vast amount of shooting that would otherwise be going into Troops choices which aren't nearly so survivable.

Of course if you aren't looking at full throttle competitiveness then sure I guess it could be considered semi-competitive. But if you want to take the competitive route then I would have to advocate Scythes. A far better way to spend 400+ points.

In the scenario above though you have given all the advantages to the Necrons, or at least that the Terminator player isn't very good

Not really, but it was an illustration. The Necrons have the guns though, so they either back up an shoot, or close in and assault when the oppurtunity presents itself. The Terms "have no choice" but to try and press for the assault.

1. They are in rapid fire range followed by an assault. Now that premeasuring is in it's not too likely this will happen. More likely it would be rapid fire followed by the Terminators assaulting you.

Again, not really. Random assault can change this, but generally speaking if you are greater then 12" away at the start of your turn you back up and shoot them, if you are closer the 12" you step forward, double tap, and assault them. There really isn't much the Terms can do other then ignore you and go for something else. Now, of course, you can introduce a LR into the equation, be we all know that Necrons don't really fear LRs at all.

2. You are also assuming all Necron Warriors will get to attack in cc. 20 Warriors + Lord + Overlord will have a hard time getting every model engaged. This is hard to quantify but it really should be assumed that a few models won't be making cc attacks first round.

Not a bad point, but 10 TH/SS termies can be similarly restricted. With 2d6" assault range I've rarely had trouble getting the vast majority into assault, it's all about how you place your models and whether or not you have template or blasts to consider.

3. Why would the Terminators let an MSS'ed model not be among the casualties? That would be the first guy to die, so you should really allow for one more terminator to be making attacks.

That's a good point. The Warriors would lose a couple models more, but they would still throttle the crap out of them. I also didn't allow for any pre-softening of the Term Unit, although that would likely occur as well.

The math (IMO) in my opinion in this particular case isn't worth doing. I know what Warriors are supposed to do and I let them do it (shoot and hold objectives at range). Late game there may be a need to move closer to the enemy but by that point my shooting should have done it's job...I'm simply now mopping up or following the lead of my dedicated cc units. Sure I can spend 400+ points and make them semi-competent in cc but why would I when there are more efficient ways to spend the points. And wouldn't you rather your opponent was shooting at non-scoring units? I mean Praetorians and Wraiths are absolute killers but another point as to why they are so attractive is because they absorb a vast amount of shooting that would otherwise be going into Troops choices which aren't nearly so survivable.

Your definition of what Warriors are "suppose to do" is 100% based off assumptions. Now, you can design a Warrior unit that is "suppose to do that," in fact every army should have at least such units, but that doesn't mean that is the only viable way to take them. And please, semi-competent...I just illustrated them throttling mercilessly one of the best CC units in the game. Lets stop using words that have been proven to be inaccurate. They are extremely competent in CC. And, again, your not spending 400+ points on CC, you're going to buy the Warriors anyway, you're also going to buy the Overlord anyway, you're really only spending about 100 points to weld those two, already purchased units, effectively together.

Of course if you aren't looking at full throttle competitiveness then sure I guess it could be considered semi-competitive. But if you want to take the competitive route then I would have to advocate Scythes. A far better way to spend 400+ points.

Warrior blobs have made their way into many, many "competitive lists."

My rant on the word "competitive:"


Not to derail the thread...that word just irks me.

I still think you are putting too much in the Necrons favour. Of course you are trying to illustrate a point but when making assumptions I tend to look at the worst possible outcomes. Some of the things I have issues with:

You mention pre-softening the Terminator unit, but make no mention of the same happening to the Warriors. It makes more sense to leave this out of the equation entirely.

10 TH/SS terminators will not have the same issue of getting into base contact. They have less than half the number of models and their bases are significantly larger.

I still don't see how you are rapid firing and charging. If you are within 12" you should have been charged last turn. If not then you are backing up? Where does this fit in with them advancing mercilessly as a hardcore cc unit capable of pushing for objectives?

The biggest issue I have though is the fact that if you take 20 Warriors, a MSS, Weave and Warscythe lord and a MSS, Weave, Warscythe, Phase Shifter and Res Orb Overlord you have now got to take units that support said unit. A couple of Ghost Arks are necessary to keep numbers up which entails buying another unit of Necrons. By now we have spent a good 800pts on 1 unit and it's support. And it's a unit that does have limitations (against a hardcore deathstar unit it is going to come up short and it can't touch fliers).

A unit of terminators don't need said support since they function as beatsticks and the rest of the army can be pretty much whatever else you want it to be. There's plenty of room for anti-air and another Deathstar of their own if they so choose.

I have to say I haven't seen warrior blobs at any competitive events. Any links available?

I certainly didn't mean anything with my own "competitive" comment. I have seen lots of different lists win events, some that run contrary to popular opinion. Heck I even run Deathmarks which are considered inferior to Wraiths but that's the unit that works for me.

However there are some units that no matter how you use them they will never be competitive. Warrior blobs aren't in that pile, but they do require an extreme expenditure of points and a lot of support from the rest of the army. Hence semi-competitive. Most of the best units in the game (IMO) are capable of synergizing with other units without relying on them to work at full effectiveness.

You mention pre-softening the Terminator unit, but make no mention of the same happening to the Warriors. It makes more sense to leave this out of the equation entirely.

Well, the idea was, in a vacuum, between just those two units, Warriors can soften TH/SS terms, but cannot be softened in return.

10 TH/SS terminators will not have the same issue of getting into base contact. They have less than half the number of models and their bases are significantly larger.

Sorry, didn't mean to imply the exact same issue, but they can still have issues with it. Also, everybase they "lose" to this will be much more detrimental then a couple of Warrior bases.

I still don't see how you are rapid firing and charging. If you are within 12" you should have been charged last turn. If not then you are backing up? Where does this fit in with them advancing mercilessly as a hardcore cc unit capable of pushing for objectives?

Terms only move 6 and assault 2d6"...so it's pretty unlikely they pull a 12" charge off. Think about any scenario from the Necrons perspective. Now, true, if your dancing with Terms, you might not be making your way to the objective (although you still can be, unless they are standing exactly in between you and it), but that's just a matter of changing your strategy to deal with a very respectable CC threat. Most armies don't have something like that to deal with.

The biggest issue I have though is the fact that if you take 20 Warriors, a MSS, Weave and Warscythe lord and a MSS, Weave, Warscythe, Phase Shifter and Res Orb Overlord you have now got to take units that support said unit. A couple of Ghost Arks are necessary to keep numbers up which entails buying another unit of Necrons. By now we have spent a good 800pts on 1 unit and it's support. And it's a unit that does have limitations (against a hardcore deathstar unit it is going to come up short and it can't touch fliers).

Yeah but, your acting like those 800 points aren't doing anything in their own right. Warriors with Crypteks in a GA is a viable unit by itself, it, and the blob, only become better once you combine them together. 99.99% of units can't touch fliers...what does that have to do with anything? And can it get out deathstarred? Only by much more expensive deathstars, but then again, they are much more expensive.

A unit of terminators don't need said support since they function as beatsticks and the rest of the army can be pretty much whatever else you want it to be. There's plenty of room for anti-air and another Deathstar of their own if they so choose.

The Terms can't shoot and can't score, cost about the same, and get rolled by this unit. I'm not sure where you're coming from here.

I have to say I haven't seen warrior blobs at any competitive events. Any links available?

I've seen them posted, I'll have to dig to find them though, because admittedly the flyer craze has hit Necrons pretty hard (not in a bad way, more as in a build de jour way). I think as things normalize you'll see blobs more and more. It actually works quite well with flyers, as it gives them the anchor and board presence that they lack. I think it's very comparable to a Guard blob (which has gotten quite popular as of late), not quite as punchy in CC, but quite a bit more resilient.

And I hear you on the competitive deal. I was reluctant to post the rant at all, because I know it's mostly just a pet peeve of my whenever that word is used.

I think Warriors work just fine on their own, but having a solid scoring anchor is valuable in any list, particularly with the NOVA format. You need to be able to exert pressure on the enemy, and shooting alone, or all to easy to counter Wraiths, don't always do the trick. In all this talk we've kind of ignored the best thing about the blob, it scores and it doesn't die, and thats why the points spent on CC are worth it, as shooty only blobs are very easily countered by any kind of CC. Killing 20 Res Orbed Warriors with GA support and an Overlord to soak some wounds is damn near impossible.

I hear you. The Warrior blob is fantastically resilient. But I still think there are issues with spending 800+ points on a Single scoring unit plus it's support elements.

If we look at 3 of the best Deathstars in the game it's you can see they spend a similar amount of points but are capable of more than just surviving, but also smacking down pretty much anything on the table They also don't require much in the way of support (which is where the points even out):

1. Paladins. Throw in Coteaz and you get access to Divination which means you are now a serious threat to fliers...Or at least the ones that matter since Necrons can only take up to 3 Doom Scythes.

2. Ork Nob Bikers. A nasty force in cc and shooting and the only flier they are afraid of is (again) the Doom Scythe. Fortunately their TL guns are capable of glancing them to Death and they will be getting a nice cover save most of the time, plus they will be combat turn 2.

3. Harlesquin Deathstar. A little cheaper but really resilient to shooting attacks. Throw in a Shadowfield Archon plus Eldrad and you have a real nasty unit that can get to where it wants to be and hit hard. This unit may not be able to deal with fliers but they don't really care about them either.

All 3 of these have about the same level of resilience as the Warrior blob (or more) but they are capable of doing so much more than just advancing and holding an objective. Nob Bikers can score with a Warboss. Paladins can score with a Grand Master or Draigo. Harlequins can't but damn are they resilient to shooting on the way in, especially with Fortune on them.

This is where the competitiveness of a unit (and army) begins IMO. Look at the unit in a vacuum and give it a function. Can it perform? Does it have survivability? Does it compromise the rest of the list? Does it synergize well with other units?

This is why I personally like Scythes over Warrior Blobs. They give Deathmarks (and 5 man Warrior Squads with Voltaic Crypteks) an excellent and accurate way of getting 30" up the table. They are hard to kill and can perform on their own. Once you start looking at the untangible benefits you can also see you can use their bases to limit, if not block completely assaults on your more fragile ground units as well.

Then if we look at the Warrior Blobs we see they can fulfill their purpose. They are extremely resilient. While they don't compromise the rest of the list they do require a lot of support and the list is really built around them. This does however mean that they are synergizing well, but with the loss of the support perhaps they won't be quite as efficient. It's really when you start looking at the untangible benefits that I think the problems become more apparent though. Large unit size means you can get drawn into combat where your models don't all get to attack. There are some units which this can't deal with. Since you have invested so heavily perhaps the rest of the list is lacking also. Next you can see this unit is not a "Fire and Forget" Deathstar unlike most others. They require intense management and a small mistake, or even a bad set of dice rolls can cost you the unit and thusly the game. And finally your "Tank" is a scoring unit. I said if before but I think it bears repeating that I would rather my opponent shot at something that wasn't scoring if it is that integral to my plan.

Sorry to go off on a rant. Just figured I would put it all out there in 1 go.

All good points. The big difference I would point out is the blob itself is really only 400 to 500 points depending on options, the 2 Ghost Arcs, assuming occupants, are two independent scoring units and 4 independent (6 technically with both broadsides, although rarely used) firing units. Those are some huge advantage of Nobs and Pallies, which are one scoring unit that can fire at one target.

Like I was saying before, a Ghost Arc carrying warriors and a cryptek is a legitimate unit in its own right. It carries decent dual threat fire power, sufficiently resilient, and it scores. The fact that on top of doing that it also buffs the blob is just a bonus.

From my experience, because of how resilient it is, once you've got the blob, a GA or two with occupants, and maybe an extra 5x, you're basically done with your troop selection. In my blob armies I regularly run only three troops (including the blob), which allows me to still invest a decent chunk of points into pretty toys.

Now, granted, I wouldn't recommend going this route on anything less then 1850, maybe 1750. I've done it for lulz at 1000, and you basically play the stalemate game.