Is there anywhere I can buy the new CSM codex for cheaply (and legally).
We didn't ask for a hardcover, nor did we ask for full color, and we sure as hell did not ask fro the $50 rice tag it comes with.
I refuse to feed into GW's price inflation on this. I'll accept most, but not this.
Does anyone know where we can get it cheaper?

ebay?

One of the discount online retailers out there (some of whom advertise on dakka)

Online retailers like Miniature Market can get it to you for like 37.50

Beyond that, just wait a while then try to pick it up used from someone. If you don't like the direction, the best you can do is not giving GW your money.

Your gif on your sig surmises what you have just told me valiantly.

How much are they on itunes?

I don't think Itunes sells codices, legally anyway.

GW has been coming out with some electronic copies of certain books(and will eventually have everything avaliable that way) but they arn't any cheaper. Although one perk is that they automatically update with FAQs and WD additions(so if an Errata changes the wording of something it will automatically change in your E-codex)

Youre in the wrong hobby if youre not willing to accept wallet rape.

Yeah, this is not the hobby for those who can't part with their cash.

Noticed the "Art of Halo" in the bookstore the other day. 200 pages, hardcover, and in full color with highly detailed pages. Was $20.....

True, there is no reason for GW codicies to cost as much as they do. But they arn't prohibitivly expensive yet.

Their products ARE excessively priced but you should be fully prepared to accept that fact from the moment you walk into a hobby shop and look at a pricetag. But if GW werent so ham fisted with their products and actually attempted to branch out into advertising, merch, media outlets, etc... The influx of new consumers would justify a price decrease. Until they smarten up you better be putting in some overtime at work.

Actually, if you compare GW models to other miniature companies that put out similer quality you will see that GW prices are actually very competitive.

For example, the Thundertusk/Stonehorn model. if you've ever seen one in person it is fantastically detailed, comes with a wealth of equipment options, loads of extra bits, and can build one of two completely different models. its also plastic.

other model companies would probably charge $150 for something like that. GW sells it for $57.75

I never quite got the sentiment that if you want to play warhammer you better be ready to just pour money on it. With a little research you can easily save a TON of money and still have everything you need to play.

Given ample time I could easily amass a large force for 50 bucks. With a hundred I could get an army, it's codex, and the current rule book. You have to cut corners, you might have to wait a small amount of time, and you might have to put some effort into it, but it's very possible and I think all this money or gtfo talk is detrimental to the community.

Yes, but the guy with the Halo book example was spot on. The books are absurd, and the move to hardcover was just an upsell. Im well aware of what their doing (I do it every day at work) and yes Im fully prepared to pay it. GW has me by the balls and I dont complain lol

You have 3 options:
1: Pay for it
2: Throw your morale compass out the window
3: Quit the hobby

 Necrosis wrote:
You have 3 options:
1: Pay for it
2: Throw your morale compass out the window
3: Quit the hobby

4: Ask for it as a present from someone(s)
5: Find a group that will let you play with the old codex
6: Proxy your chaos force using another codex

Yes, you can save money. But you will still pay a fair amount.

You arn't going to find 80% discounts except on second hand crappy paint jobs, thats for sure.

new kits can be found in online retailers for as much as 25% and I've seen some occasionally higher.

 d3m01iti0n wrote:
Yes, but the guy with the Halo book example was spot on.

Oh, I very much agree. I like to buy pen and paper rpg books for the reading content alone. Take for example White Wolf's Mage the Awakening game.

For 35 bucks, you get 400 pages in hardcover with semi colored innards. In those 400 pages you get various short stories, a crazy rpg system, and a gak ton of ideas and material to inspire creativity in other outlets.

For 50 bucks, GW gives you a hardcover with colored innards, rehashed fluff, some pages of new stuff regarding new units, about a page worth of weapon and equipment stats, and unit info comprised of numbers and what you can do with them.

There's a very obviously something wrong with this picture.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Grey Templar wrote:
You arn't going to find 80% discounts except on second hand crappy paint jobs, thats for sure.

You can and I have. Guy sold me 700 dollars worth of vampire counts for 150. The only thing wrong with them? No extra bits, it was all preassembled, and some had a light coat of white primer.

I also got a similiar deal on tyranids before. 500 dollars worth for like 95 bucks. Some where in bad condition, but about 80% of the lot was metal. For about 8 dollars you can buy a container of acetone, and all those metal models come out practically brand new.

But the books look soooooo sexy on my bookshelf

Cipher Games should have a decent deal on the Chaos Codex whenever they get around to having it available on their site.

You're experience grabbing sweet deals is not the norm so don't try and pass it off as something that happens everyday. I took 2 years gathering just the basics of a chaos army for about 150 and got about 500 bucks worth. Two years. The army I wanted. Not including tanks of any sort or even a full bike squad. Sure I've got a 2000 pt army, but it took a lot of time and most of it was poorly painted. Its really not worth the time. Yes it can be done, but you're giving false hope with such an off handed,"This is how I did it."

 Crystal Geyser wrote:
Is there anywhere I can buy the new CSM codex for cheaply (and legally).
We didn't ask for a hardcover, nor did we ask for full color, and we sure as hell did not ask fro the $50 rice tag it comes with.
I refuse to feed into GW's price inflation on this. I'll accept most, but not this.
Does anyone know where we can get it cheaper?

Quit your whining. If you want it, go buy it. If you are going to cry over what you "didn't ask for", then sell your minis and go home.

It's the norm if you put effort into it. Set trade values, make estimates, low ball, it's not hard. It takes longer, and sometimes much longer to get than simply buying it straight out, but I've done it numerous times, and it's because I put time and effort into doing.

You're being pessimistic and trying to pass it off as realistic. This isn't winning the lottery, this is learning how to barter.

Edit - Also, it being not worth the time is your opinion on the matter, not fact. I take great pride in getting miniatures people discard because of poor paint jobs, put minimum effort into salvaging them, and painting them up and getting compliments on a job well done. That to me is worth the time.

You have to do it on the cheap in Australia... or sell your soul/get it for christmas. What's funny is that my "Marvel Encyclopedia" was a third of the price of my 40k book. "Australia through time" (Which is double the size) was a quarter.
Both are full colour.

...If you want to play the game with new stuff bought directly from GW, you've got to be willing to accept some amount of wallet rape; it's a matter of monopoly power. They're the only avenue to get to the rules/miniatures new/at release, they're going to be able to charge whatever they want.

The alternative, involving less wallet rape, is to get stuff used. I'm looking at a person selling twenty five Tactical Marines (assembled and partially painted) for six bucks on Ebay right now; $7.50 for four Terminators; that sort of thing, but you have got to expect silly prices if you're going to buy things straight from the only source.

Want it, buy it, play it. Repeat.

Welcome to GW.

even as a non-chaos player, im incredibly surprised that you guys think $50 is far too expensive (more so if you're in the hobby already)

The codex looks bloody great, colour, hard cover, quality...

I paid $124 for the rulebook down here in AU, and i thought 'holy jesus thats expensive', but i can really see the quality of it after a while, and can even say that it's worth the $124...

 Grey Templar wrote:
I don't think Itunes sells codices, legally anyway.

You don't think so?

Only 2 so far though.

 -Loki- wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:
I don't think Itunes sells codices, legally anyway.

You think so?

Forgot which publisher GW was using for their E-codices.

Man you're quick. I changed the text a bit right after I posted.

Nothing better to do while waiting for TV shows to buffer

maybe you should ask for a raise in your allowance. GW prices its stuff how they want. its thier IP and they can sell it for whatever they think they can get for it. if you dont like it, dont buy it. but complaining on the internet won't help you.

if you have friends who play chaos, try going halfers on the dex and sharing. if you play at the local store, see if the store sales peoples might let you make use of the store open copy if one exists.

good luck

 Byte wrote:
Want it, buy it, play it. Repeat.

Welcome to hobbies in general .

Fixed that for you...

I could be wrong, but I feel like this thread might be starting to become a wee bit hostile... :(

have you scoured craigslist? I found 7 unopened boxes of GW material for 150 bucks. 2 dreads, 1 land speeder, 2 packs of termies, 1 tac squad, 1 veteren squad.

150 bucks. good deal if you ask me. all unopened.

 Crystal Geyser wrote:
I could be wrong, but I feel like this thread might be starting to become a wee bit hostile... :(

I noticed that too.

$50 for a rulebook is pretty steep. I think people have pretty much covered the options... go with an online retailer to save $10 or so once they start selling the codices, wait awhile for someone to sell a used copy (although with a brand new codex I can't imagine that there will be many available any time soon), or figure out a way to share a copy with someone. I'll probably be going with the first option myself. I had thought about swinging by a GW store to look through the preview copy and preorder from there, but I guess they aren't doing that anymore so, meh, Neal can get my money and I'll save $10 and a bit of gas.

For everyone saying that it's an expensive hobby deal with it...well you just sound a little like an ass pretending to be a horse. I don't mean to offend but just because someone tells you to pay this or that for something doesn't mean you have to pay said price.

The issue is content and that content is relative.

A new player to 40k will not mind the $207 price tag of a rule book and codex (aussie prices) because he gets tons for his money. New game, new story, stats and strats, modeling pics, missions, you name it he is getting it. And i think that $200 odd is a great deal for what your getting, hell thats almost what i paid when i started, for the rulebook codex and bits to get into the 40k universe and i wouldn't trade it for the world.

However, being that i already have a rule book and a codex and i know how to play, all i need are errata for my codex and rule book. Honestly now, how much new content do you think there is between 5th and 6th ed? Because i'm betting that if you put all the new rules and all the rule changes together...at best...you would be looking at 20 double sided A4 pages (being generous) And the codex really just needs a few A4 spreadsheet style scans with new unit prices, stats and bare bones stuff like that which we actually need. All that is not worth $207 not by a long shot.

I would be much happier to continue using my old rule book and my old codex and buy supplements to use with them to update them as changes are made. I reckon $30 for a small rules supplement and $15-30 for a codex supplement which i can use in conjunction with my big hard cover rule book and Codex seems fair. Asking me to spend $207 on exactly the same thing is not. Unfortunately the supplements don't exist, so i'm afraid i may have to be less then honorable and moral should i need the new rules and codex.

"an ass that goes on a long journey does not come back as a horse." - Be a smart consumer, buy what you need not what they tell you.

You just discribed my main issue with the prices, thank you sir.

I don't mind paying a little, notice I said little more for their models because it's a hobby and thats what they spend the bulk of their time on. The rules though they tweak hear and their and rehash everything else.

If you want to make me buy models then you need to make sure I have a reason to buy them. That means making it desirable and easy to buy all the codex's and white dwarf. I can't really be excited to buy other models from other armies if I don't have a reason to drool over them because your codex's and white dwarf are to high priced. I'll end up just buying the stuff I need and nothing else. Sure you'll make a little money but not as much as you could have.

I can get a years sub for almost any mag for $15.00. Is it really that expensive in Europe to print mags?

My problem with GW prices is the fact that their products are made in China now.

A box of Space Marines should be $5 now. A tank should be $8.

But all those "shut up and pay" people will cause GWs prices to climb ever higher.

That's fine though. Once GW prices the masses out of the market, all those people who blow money on GW, won't have anyone to play with.

Then they'll have to give people armies just to have an excuse to go to the FLGS.

Except all those people that already have armies and really stopped purchasing from GW years ago will continue to play.

The amount of money you usually invest in GW products tends to get less nowadays, at least in my case. With their ridiculous prices, I only stick to 1 army whereas I used to have 3 (Necrons and 2 WHFB). And all since the re-release of Necrons, I only bought a Royal Court box (15€), 2 AB (40€) and 2 boxes of Immortals (40€) along with the shiny templates (6.50€, shared with a friend of mine). Oh, and the codex ofc (26€).

That's 127,50€ spread over...how many months? 9?

The next planned purchase might be a GK termi squad...maybe Crowe with some purificators to add more dakka.

That's mainly due to me still having had so much stuff from a few years ago. Destroyers, Warriors, MORE WARRIORS etc.

Plus I convert a lot. Heavy Destroyer kit? Screw that, build your own Heavy Gauss cannon with sprue and a normal Gauss Cannon. Gauss Immortals? Sure, my Warriors will just carry those weapons. Here, take these plasticard armor platings too.

So...GW's really hurting themselves. I'd love to pick up another army but only if

a) WHFB 9th gets released and retcons the 8th trash

b) they reduce their prices to a normal level

I remember when the codexes still costed 12 pounds each...

Dragonzord wrote:
even as a non-chaos player, im incredibly surprised that you guys think $50 is far too expensive (more so if you're in the hobby already)

The codex looks bloody great, colour, hard cover, quality...

I paid $124 for the rulebook down here in AU, and i thought 'holy jesus thats expensive', but i can really see the quality of it after a while, and can even say that it's worth the $124...

I don't have a problem with color, quality and such. I just don't need color to tell me the options and points costs. I just want the rules.

I don't need full page color images of space marines. I don't need to read up on the HH for the umpteenth time. I don't need a bunch of pages showcasing models I can see in 360 view online.

I want rules dang it! All, like what, 10 pages of actual useful info.

GW should offer a pocket codex.

A pamphlet that contains the reference section, army list, weapon entries, and special rules for that army. Basically the codex minus all the fluff.

I'd pay $20 for that.


It would be a useful gaming aid and if somone just couldn't afford a $50 codex they could at least afford the rules for their army.

 DeffDred wrote:

Dragonzord wrote:
even as a non-chaos player, im incredibly surprised that you guys think $50 is far too expensive (more so if you're in the hobby already)

The codex looks bloody great, colour, hard cover, quality...

I paid $124 for the rulebook down here in AU, and i thought 'holy jesus thats expensive', but i can really see the quality of it after a while, and can even say that it's worth the $124...

I don't have a problem with color, quality and such. I just don't need color to tell me the options and points costs. I just want the rules.

I don't need full page color images of space marines. I don't need to read up on the HH for the umpteenth time. I don't need a bunch of pages showcasing models I can see in 360 view online.

I want rules dang it! All, like what, 10 pages of actual useful info.

the funny thing is that if they made the 50$ and just rules for lets say 25$ they would still sell both .

Makumba wrote:

 DeffDred wrote:

Dragonzord wrote:
even as a non-chaos player, im incredibly surprised that you guys think $50 is far too expensive (more so if you're in the hobby already)

The codex looks bloody great, colour, hard cover, quality...

I paid $124 for the rulebook down here in AU, and i thought 'holy jesus thats expensive', but i can really see the quality of it after a while, and can even say that it's worth the $124...

I don't have a problem with color, quality and such. I just don't need color to tell me the options and points costs. I just want the rules.

I don't need full page color images of space marines. I don't need to read up on the HH for the umpteenth time. I don't need a bunch of pages showcasing models I can see in 360 view online.

I want rules dang it! All, like what, 10 pages of actual useful info.

the funny thing is that if they made the 50$ and just rules for lets say 25$ they would still sell both .

I'd have no problem with that.

I'd actually buy both. Keep my nice shiny fluff codex at home and have the cheap pamphlet for actual gaming reference.

I got lucky and ran into an old Daemon hunters army for about 100 bucks. Was about 2500 points, a solid 600 points worth of grey knights (by the new codex). Kept the knights and traded/sold the guard that came with it to fund the rest of my GK army and some older Necron models. Not something I see happen often but you can get lucky. In my experience you can't easily find used new models on the cheap. Had to buy my dreadknight and new necron vehicles. Thank the emperor for discount sites.

The new trend on codices bugs me a bit, but doesn't seem exclusive to gw. Wizards (of the coast) has been doing it with books for years. Recently released a commemorative edition of the 3.5 core books. I was temped to buy them and get some old gaming buddies together for a night, but 50 bucks a pop turned me off to it. At least, for now..

Oh no, you have to pay $50 for it?

Cry me a river. It's $83 here, and our dollar is worth more than yours.

 Kaldor wrote:
Oh no, you have to pay $50 for it?

Cry me a river. It's $83 here, and our dollar is worth more than yours.

Yeah, by what, $.037 per dollar?

The simple fact of the matter is that it is an inconvenient increase in price for everyone. True, Australia, New Zealand, and a few others get screwed over moreso than the rest of us but I think that most of can agree that these codices are not worth the money GW is demanding for them.

And if the US was getting screwed over like you guys, I would have stopped expanding/updating my armies, my wallet can only take so much.

 Grey Templar wrote:
GW should offer a pocket codex.

A pamphlet that contains the reference section, army list, weapon entries, and special rules for that army. Basically the codex minus all the fluff.

I'd pay $20 for that.


It would be a useful gaming aid and if somone just couldn't afford a $50 codex they could at least afford the rules for their army.

...and most people would buy the pocket codex, GW makes a lot less money => not gonna happen.

GW experimented with pamphlet codices in 3rd. People didn't like them, so they switched to thicker codices with fluff again.

 Sigvatr wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:
GW should offer a pocket codex.

A pamphlet that contains the reference section, army list, weapon entries, and special rules for that army. Basically the codex minus all the fluff.

I'd pay $20 for that.


It would be a useful gaming aid and if somone just couldn't afford a $50 codex they could at least afford the rules for their army.

...and most people would buy the pocket codex, GW makes a lot less money => not gonna happen.

See i don't think thats the case. Personally i think it would even out. looking from my point in the hobby, i have all the big shiny 5th ed stuff, and it's in mint condition so a new upgrade to rules and codex is not somethign i would consider hence i would get the pamphlet option. However my 3rd ed codex is just about fallen apart, so if i only had the big 3rd ed rules and codex (because i would get by without them as i will with my current 5th ed) then i would totally be into buying a new rule book and a new codex as mine would be already very old, well used and...simply the march of time would warrant a nice new book so even for a veteran player a new book is in the cards and not just a pamphlet. Going back to reality, thats not my situation right now, so i lament the fact that there isn't a cheaper suppliment option as it would be perfect for me right now, but once 7th or 8th comes along, i would like to get a whole new set of books.

This might not apply to everyone but i think that if they had a cheap and a expensive option, they would still have strong sales in both aspects.

 Harriticus wrote:
Noticed the "Art of Halo" in the bookstore the other day. 200 pages, hardcover, and in full color with highly detailed pages. Was $20.....

I can find books that were published in 2004 for cheaps as well, does that mean every publisher who wants to charge me £8 for a brand-new paperback is ripping me off?

Get a grip chaps, the new Codex is a bit on the pricey side for what you get, but it's hardly "outrageous", and it's definitely not unprecedented.

It really isn't that expensive when you figure what you are getting for it. A hardback, full color publication for a niche market for 40 dollars (yes, 40. It's pretty darn easy to get that 20 percent off at any authorized retailer) is hardly wallet-busting. That codex is going to last you... what, 5 years? More? Considering I put more money than that into my truck's gas tank weekly, that's not a bad price for a book that will last me a number of years.

Aussies and NZ residents are the only ones with justification to be pissed about the price. For whatever reason GW seems determined to cut off those regions from playing 40k. But those of us in the UK and the US need to quit whining... seriously.

This forum seems to have become nothing but a soapbox for all the people who suddenly have a problem with 40k and GW in general. Yeah, prices are high. Yeah, GW could stop raising them on us and we'd be a lot happier. But people need to learn when to let go. If you aren't happy with the game any more, sell your stuff or put it away, and walk away from it. The negativity that permeates this forum is sickening. Offer solutions, not just more whining.

An example of a solution: Maybe GW could print a pamphlet version of the codex for cheaper.

An example of whining: Why do we have to pay so much? GW, you suck! GW has gone down the drain.... yada yada yada.

To sum up...

If you want it now, hunt around the online retailers. You will probably find one who does a small discount of about $5-$10.

If you're prepared to wait, give it a couple of months and then go hunting on ebay.

Despite what some people are saying on this thread, It is possible to do the GW hobby for cheaper and you don't need that much patience, just a bit of creativity.

I like the fact it is hard back, I didnt know that until I just read this thread.


About doing the hobby cheaper, I have just started out and have spent around 2k and have around 8k points of marines, mix of second hand NOS and brand new items

Despite what some people are saying on this thread, It is possible to do the GW hobby for cheaper and you don't need that much patience, just a bit of creativity.

could you be more precise how ?

Makumba wrote:

Despite what some people are saying on this thread, It is possible to do the GW hobby for cheaper and you don't need that much patience, just a bit of creativity.

could you be more precise how ?

Army collecting - There's a guy in P&M who has put together a 2000pt Imperial Fist army for less than £150. He bought all the models on ebay, stripped any existing paint jobs and simply repainted the miniatures. It looks amazing.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/338372.page

Terrain - There are some great online articles for making terrain that is visually stunning, yet doesn't cost the earth. Check the link in my signature for an example.

Battlefield - Anyone who forks out £120 for the Realm of Battles gaming board is a loon. You can make a decent battlefield for £20 using MDF.

Rulebooks - You can always pick these up for cheaper via ebay about two-six months from release. However, I accept that unless they are quite old, it's difficult to get anything more than a 10-20% discount.

But that is for someone who is already long in the hobby , it helps little people who are starting , specialy if they are under 18 and without an access to credit cards.

I've come to accept that if you play a game made by GW, you need to be prepared for fluctuating, and rather high, prices. If you can't handle that, this just isn't the hobby for you. It's not going to change. Unless you make eBay your number one source of buying (which, even then, prices aren't the best), you're going to have to spend money to get the new shinies.


It's unfortunate, but it's just the way it is. No sense complaining about it.

I think when you consider the price of GW codices and rulebooks you also have to factor in the "niche hobby" aspect of it. Yes, the new codex is $50 for a hardback book. It's also going to sell to a relatively small audience.

Somebody else mentioned the "Art of Halo" book for $20 earlier. Well, comparing GW to the Art of Halo is like comparing apples and watermelons. I'm sure that whatever company owns the Halo franchise is rolling in a lot more money than GW is, because they have a much wider audience and Halo is HUGE. The key phrase in that person's statement was also "found at the bookstore". When's the last time you walked into your local Barnes and Noble and saw a Warhammer 40K rulebook or codex on the shelf? Wider distribution means you can put out your books for cheaper, because they'll naturally sell more copies.

It's a pricey hobby. You can find things cheaper online if you're willing to do some looking, but it still costs cash to play tabletop miniature wargames. Yes, $50 is a lot to drop on one codex - but you also won't need another one for what, 6-7 years?

 Sigvatr wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:
GW should offer a pocket codex.

A pamphlet that contains the reference section, army list, weapon entries, and special rules for that army. Basically the codex minus all the fluff.

I'd pay $20 for that.


It would be a useful gaming aid and if somone just couldn't afford a $50 codex they could at least afford the rules for their army.

...and most people would buy the pocket codex, GW makes a lot less money => not gonna happen.

I'd buy both. One to keep at home to read and use to make my army (the full version), and one to throw in my backpack when I go play a game or when I'm traveling and want to flip through it (pamphlet version).

Somebody else mentioned the "Art of Halo" book for $20 earlier. Well, comparing GW to the Art of Halo is like comparing apples and watermelons. I'm sure that whatever company owns the Halo franchise is rolling in a lot more money than GW is, because they have a much wider audience and Halo is HUGE.

but halos main market is the US , I dont think that the main market for GW are the US right now . most sells still come from UK . and market wise GW and its games are huge , while halo is not the only FPS there is [a lot of other popular games exist] , GW is more or less a monopolist as wargaming goes . Specialy after PP pulling out of Europe,

Makumba wrote:

Somebody else mentioned the "Art of Halo" book for $20 earlier. Well, comparing GW to the Art of Halo is like comparing apples and watermelons. I'm sure that whatever company owns the Halo franchise is rolling in a lot more money than GW is, because they have a much wider audience and Halo is HUGE.

but halos main market is the US , I dont think that the main market for GW are the US right now . most sells still come from UK . and market wise GW and its games are huge , while halo is not the only FPS there is [a lot of other popular games exist] , GW is more or less a monopolist as wargaming goes . Specialy after PP pulling out of Europe,

Really? I though sales of space marines, in the US alone, out-sold all other GW product world wide.

I mean, I'm no economist or anything. It's just something I've heard for years.

Makumba wrote:
I dont think that the main market for GW are the US right now . most sells still come from UK . and market wise GW and its games are huge , while halo is not the only FPS there is [a lot of other popular games exist] , GW is more or less a monopolist as wargaming goes . Specialy after PP pulling out of Europe,

Games Workshop's 2011-2012 Annual Report disagrees that most sales come from the UK.

External Revenue (£000):
UK 31,648
North America 33,621
Continental Europe 40,757

 kronk wrote:


External Revenue (£000):
UK 31,648
North America 33,621
Continental Europe 40,757

Population North America (US + CA): 350 Mio.
Population Western EU: 420 Mio. (w/o UK. not gonna even start on Russia, etc.).
Population UK: 62,2 Mio.

Meh, $50 hurts....but not that much.

I play Eldar & Dark Angels, neither of which have had a codex in 5 years now. I think I paid $25 USD for them, which in my line of thinking means I spend on average $5 per year on a codex...chickenfeed. Now it's $10...which is what I'll spend on lunch today. I think like that, so it doesn't bother me that much, and if you've read some of my other post you'll notice a value/dollar theme kinda thing with me.

Where GW screwed up is that I used to buy all of the codices. I liked knowing all aspects of the fluff, everything my opponent could do - for no surprises. It wasn't too expensive, so impulse buying wasn't a concern. Now I don't do that anymore. GK, BA....didn't buy them, not my stuff, GW's decision to price gouge lost them my dollar. Borrowed a friends GK and Tau and browsed, another friend offered me a PDF of BA. I don't play any of those armies, so I skimmed them both to see if either army was worth playing. I really see it no different than a friend lending me a novel.

If either army was interesting to me, I'd buy the codex, but because of current pricing I only buy the core stuff I need to play my side of the game.

 Zweischneid wrote:

 kronk wrote:


External Revenue (£000):
UK 31,648
North America 33,621
Continental Europe 40,757

Population North America (US + CA): 350 Mio.
Population Western EU: 420 Mio. (w/o UK. not gonna even start on Russia, etc.).
Population UK: 62,2 Mio.

Irrelevant, but impressive. However, it wasn't a question of $/population.

It was a question of "most sells still come from UK", which isn't true.

 Darth Bob wrote:


It's unfortunate, but it's just the way it is. No sense complaining about it.

It will always be this way if people don’t complain

GW will have no reason to change any of there pricing, and in fact, can sit there and raise prices sky high because everyone seems content.

Im personally starting to feel the pinch in the wallet and Tzeentch knows what’s going to happen once my codex and new units get released but as of right now its not awfull, just bad.

Remember, this is not a staple of a person's needs, hobbies are priced at what the market can sustain and materials costs. It is not for MPC, Revell, Hobbico, or Games Workshop to make everything as discounted as possible. If they went to cheaper, less-quality materials and skimpier models, people would be complaining that quality has taken a back seat to pricing, so GW would still be demonized.

These are luxury items and, as such, are priced accordingly. If people weren't buying ForgeWorld models, GW would have discontinued the line and killed off the company.

My point still stands. If you like the hobby, you will always find the money to invest in it. Evem if it requires the sacrifice of some other luxuries, like expensive coffee or a new CD, you'll appreciate the purchase. If not, then either be happy with what you have or find a cheaper hobby. I hear solitaire is cheap, and it has a pretty solid ruleset....

Am not sure , right now we are at a point where getting money to buy a proper 2k army list with double FoC and non double FoC optimisation , takes more time then an avarge player stays playing the game .

 Desubot wrote:

 Darth Bob wrote:


It's unfortunate, but it's just the way it is. No sense complaining about it.

It will always be this way if people don’t complain

GW will have no reason to change any of there pricing, and in fact, can sit there and raise prices sky high because everyone seems content.

Im personally starting to feel the pinch in the wallet and Tzeentch knows what’s going to happen once my codex and new units get released but as of right now its not awfull, just bad.

I disagree. It will always be this way if people ONLY complain, and fail to do anything about it. If you have such strong feelings about the pricing, don't buy the stuff. Complaining loudly, then forking the money over anyway, doesn't send GW a message they can understand.

I'm staggered by the overwhelming amount of "advice" which is basically saying "deal with it or quit". I'm sorry but it isn't that simple, when I started the hobby I believed it was fair to expect to pay for an £8 codex despite them being thin on detail and not very long, 8 quid was a small amount of my hobby budget so sure why not. Then they gradually crept up to about £12 over several years and it was also as the books started to get thicker and more detailed so I accepted it. Then they shot up to £17.50 and I thought woah this is a getting stupid now, especially as they even bumped the prices of the older codices like Dark Angels and I stopped buying new releases unless I actually intended on collecting an army. Now however a £30 price...almost double what it used to be...no I can't justify that anymore. And for all you in the "deal with it" crowd, yes I have unfortunately decided that I can't sustain the rising cost of the hobby anymore and I have ebayed 4 of my major armies already, some of which I've had for nearly 10 years. My point is, why should I have to resort to quitting because GW can't keep prices fair? I was a loyal customer for the past 14 years and I'll still buy BL books and take an interest in the fluff but I will not be buying for the game again.

As for the ebay crowd, fair play to you if you want to buy things second hand and slowly build your force. But what kind of buisness model is that! Imagine if Apple came out and said here's are 10,000 dollar Iphone 6, if you cant afford one then tough, why dont you wait 3 years and buy it on ebay and quit your bitching. Also another industry which many feel is over-priced; video games, they are priced highly yes, but a game 3 years out of date gets a price reduction not increase. Fine GW feels the need to make new vehicle boxsets £40 but how the hell can the justify rasing the price of all the 4-7 year old kits to match the new ones?

If we're all so reliant on ebay then what's the point of GW at all anymore, lets stop buying, let them go bankrupt, buy ebay models and work together as a community to create fan made codices and rule books instead. Hey we all hate GW updates anyway from all the complaing on dakka, who needs them.

I'm not quitting, I'm just not giving GW my money anymore. It will go to eBay or amazon or I'll trade for what I need.

I'll be sending an email to them shortly describing why they've lost me as a customer. Not only that but I'll be keeping a runing tally of all my purchases from here on out and sending further emails listing them. In essence telling them this is what I've bought that could have been bought directly from you, the price I actually paid and here's the price your asking. Summing up the repeat emails with the reason why they still have lost my busniess. I realize that it won't be rad by anyone that matters but it's the principle of the thing.

One can only hope Kirby and Wells retire soon and someone else more reasonable takes charge. Long gak I know but o well.

Every once and a while i freak out about how much GW stuff costs. 50$ for the new codex and they don't give you the digital codex for free, that's another 35$. Then I remember that I used to spend a minimum 50$ a week on pot most of my life and it doesn't seem too crazy.

I really do think that If they bundled the digital and the hardcover codex together it would ease some of the butt hurt.

i want a ferrari.... but it costs 100 thousand bucks. why dosent ferrari price its stuff so everyone can afford it?

the houses in my area ran about 200 thousand for a bungalo about 7 years back. now that same house sells for 500. thatz crazy! how dare they increase the price by more then double!

EVERYTHING has its price go up over time. soda, candy bars, gas, utilitites, homes, cars, clothes, EVERYTHING. why is toy army men any diffierent? its called inflation. just because something used to cost only 10$ 10 years ago... what - its supposed to stay 10$ forever? if that was the case i could still get a bag of chips and a 2l cola for 25 cents. or only pay 20$ to fill my cars gas tank. the long and short of it: prices on everything increase over time, based on market demand. GWs cost to make the books and models have no doubt risen, thus they must increase prices proportonally to maintain profits. otherwise they tank, and the whole game goes away.

im not saying "suck it up and buy it or quit" - but the reality is complaining on the internet will NOT make GW lower its prices. or give you free snausages or anything else. if the price of the item you want or need costs more then youd like, well you have 3 options:
- go into debt and get it at the expense of bills/food/housing etc
- dont get it, and just "deal" (quit or dont... dosent matter)
- save up over time, and get it when you can.

generally ive had to decrease my frequency of purchasing. i generally get a set amount per month to spend on my hobby, and with price increase, instead of getting 2-3 boxes i maybe get 1 and some paint. but: the one key thing i keep in mind... warhammer is a hobby, and thus a luxuray. its not something i need to survive, and therefore if the prices rise i must do one of the above. rage quitting and selling on ebay is a method some choose... but i would think its not the best option, unless you REALLY need the cash. but in that case i would suggest re examining your budget for the actual reason you have no money and need more.

Go look at the price of Lego and you will think GW is fairly priced.

 lunarman wrote:
Go look at the price of Lego and you will think GW is fairly priced.

Apples and oranges. Lego comes pre painted

I'm not sure that it's the $50 for the codex that's so bad (although at that price you're now looking at, minimum, $125 to get the rules to play this game if you pay full retail... short of video games I can't think of any other gaming that has that high of a cost of entry.) The 50% price increase, however, is pretty extreme. Sure the new codex costs more to produce, but if you're buying this thing for the rules that really doesn't matter... you're just going to notice that 50% price hike. I don't care if it's a $1 candy bar; people would notice if it jumped up to $1.50, shiny new wrapper or no. (Yes, I am aware that codices and candy bars aren't the same thing.)

Add in the relatively lackluster new models (most people seem to have one or two that they like, but the overall response seems to be 'meh' mixed with 'Derp! Zoids!') and the re-release/bonus price increase on a lot of old miniatures left me less than thrilled. I was originally planning on turning my DV models into a starter Chaos force of Fallen, after seeing the Chaos release I've started to wonder if I want to bother, and I've already scaled back one other project (some GK paladins) so that I wouldn't need to buy any extra plastic. The GKTs certainly didn't get any more expensive in the past week, but GW just put a bad taste in my mouth.

 wowsmash wrote:
I'm not quitting, I'm just not giving GW my money anymore. It will go to eBay or amazon or I'll trade for what I need.

I'll be sending an email to them shortly describing why they've lost me as a customer. Not only that but I'll be keeping a runing tally of all my purchases from here on out and sending further emails listing them. In essence telling them this is what I've bought that could have been bought directly from you, the price I actually paid and here's the price your asking. Summing up the repeat emails with the reason why they still have lost my busniess. I realize that it won't be rad by anyone that matters but it's the principle of the thing.

One can only hope Kirby and Wells retire soon and someone else more reasonable takes charge. Long gak I know but o well.

That's a great idea. I'd be interested in hearing if you get any responses.

The new budget-busting hardcover codices (and army books from WHFB previously) have only confirmed my decision to confine my 40K activity to use of my existing minis and/or e-Bay acquisitions only with other players who want to play previous editions. The ONLY way GW will change is if the point is pounded into their heads that their decisions are costing them $$$.

 Crystal Geyser wrote:
Is there anywhere I can buy the new CSM codex for cheaply (and legally).
We didn't ask for a hardcover, nor did we ask for full color, and we sure as hell did not ask fro the $50 rice tag it comes with.
I refuse to feed into GW's price inflation on this. I'll accept most, but not this.
Does anyone know where we can get it cheaper?

Whether you pay $50 or pay a discount you are still feeding the GW price inflation. Buy that $50 book from an independent retailer and GW only gets a set amount of the value. Buy the same book from a discount independent retailer and GW *still* gets the same amount of the value. Only time there is any difference for GW is you buy directly from GW or a GW retail store.

You are right we didn't ask for full color and hardcover, but given that Warhammer fantasy has been going that route for some time anyone who didn't expect it to appear in 40k eventually was kidding themselves.

I probably will only buy the books for armies I intend to build now instead of buying the others for reading and knowing my enemy. At $50 a pop that will just get stupidly expensive.

Edit: I do chuckle at those who pat themselves on the back and say they will only ever buy stuff on ebay or amazon auctions from now on as if that makes them superior in some way. The simple fact is that the only way there continues to be product to purchase on those sites is by people continuing to purchase GW products in the retail market. So you haven't fixed anything, but instead have just limited yourself to delayed gratification until someone else buys it and gets bored with it and sells it off. If everyone decided to go to the ebay/amazon route only there would be nothing to buy anymore.


Skriker

 DarthSpader wrote:
i want a ferrari.... but it costs 100 thousand bucks. why dosent ferrari price its stuff so everyone can afford it?

the houses in my area ran about 200 thousand for a bungalo about 7 years back. now that same house sells for 500. thatz crazy! how dare they increase the price by more then double!

EVERYTHING has its price go up over time. soda, candy bars, gas, utilitites, homes, cars, clothes, EVERYTHING. why is toy army men any diffierent? its called inflation. just because something used to cost only 10$ 10 years ago... what - its supposed to stay 10$ forever? if that was the case i could still get a bag of chips and a 2l cola for 25 cents. or only pay 20$ to fill my cars gas tank. the long and short of it: prices on everything increase over time, based on market demand. GWs cost to make the books and models have no doubt risen, thus they must increase prices proportonally to maintain profits. otherwise they tank, and the whole game goes away.

im not saying "suck it up and buy it or quit" - but the reality is complaining on the internet will NOT make GW lower its prices. or give you free snausages or anything else. if the price of the item you want or need costs more then youd like, well you have 3 options:
- go into debt and get it at the expense of bills/food/housing etc
- dont get it, and just "deal" (quit or dont... dosent matter)
- save up over time, and get it when you can.

generally ive had to decrease my frequency of purchasing. i generally get a set amount per month to spend on my hobby, and with price increase, instead of getting 2-3 boxes i maybe get 1 and some paint. but: the one key thing i keep in mind... warhammer is a hobby, and thus a luxuray. its not something i need to survive, and therefore if the prices rise i must do one of the above. rage quitting and selling on ebay is a method some choose... but i would think its not the best option, unless you REALLY need the cash. but in that case i would suggest re examining your budget for the actual reason you have no money and need more.

Really hit it on the head, Darth. So when can we expect Ferrari to be lowering their prices because of internet furor? Lol

 SoloFalcon1138 wrote:

 DarthSpader wrote:
i want a ferrari.... but it costs 100 thousand bucks. why dosent ferrari price its stuff so everyone can afford it?

the houses in my area ran about 200 thousand for a bungalo about 7 years back. now that same house sells for 500. thatz crazy! how dare they increase the price by more then double!

EVERYTHING has its price go up over time. soda, candy bars, gas, utilitites, homes, cars, clothes, EVERYTHING. why is toy army men any diffierent? its called inflation. just because something used to cost only 10$ 10 years ago... what - its supposed to stay 10$ forever? if that was the case i could still get a bag of chips and a 2l cola for 25 cents. or only pay 20$ to fill my cars gas tank. the long and short of it: prices on everything increase over time, based on market demand. GWs cost to make the books and models have no doubt risen, thus they must increase prices proportonally to maintain profits. otherwise they tank, and the whole game goes away.

im not saying "suck it up and buy it or quit" - but the reality is complaining on the internet will NOT make GW lower its prices. or give you free snausages or anything else. if the price of the item you want or need costs more then youd like, well you have 3 options:
- go into debt and get it at the expense of bills/food/housing etc
- dont get it, and just "deal" (quit or dont... dosent matter)
- save up over time, and get it when you can.

generally ive had to decrease my frequency of purchasing. i generally get a set amount per month to spend on my hobby, and with price increase, instead of getting 2-3 boxes i maybe get 1 and some paint. but: the one key thing i keep in mind... warhammer is a hobby, and thus a luxuray. its not something i need to survive, and therefore if the prices rise i must do one of the above. rage quitting and selling on ebay is a method some choose... but i would think its not the best option, unless you REALLY need the cash. but in that case i would suggest re examining your budget for the actual reason you have no money and need more.

Really hit it on the head, Darth. So when can we expect Ferrari to be lowering their prices because of internet furor? Lol

Solution: Buy an 03 Cobra, buy a Whipple supercharger and tune/supporting mods for roughly $5000, and then go smoke the $100K Ferarri. Its called proxy and customization =)

 d3m01iti0n wrote:
Solution: Buy an 03 Cobra, buy a Whipple supercharger and tune/supporting mods for roughly $5000, and then go smoke the $100K Ferarri. Its called proxy and customization =)

Or just tell everyone that your baby poo brown 74 plymouth beater is *really* a bright red ferrari...

Skriker

 Skriker wrote:

 d3m01iti0n wrote:
Solution: Buy an 03 Cobra, buy a Whipple supercharger and tune/supporting mods for roughly $5000, and then go smoke the $100K Ferarri. Its called proxy and customization =)

Or just tell everyone that your baby poo brown 74 plymouth beater is *really* a bright red ferrari...

Skriker

LOLZ, but I just happen to own said car (without the Whipple) so..........................Ill just tell em my beater SVT Contour is a Bugatti

The only problem I have with the price rises and all is that I see wide eyed children that are the age I was at when I started (back when it was A LOT cheaper) and I just feel so sad for them that they are just going to be cold shouldered by GW unless they are spoilt rotten by their perants. This is a great hobby to get into but the problem is that GW is making that door smaller and smaller...

People say that GW profits on the "one time whine" of a child and that is it.... well, what happens once that stops? What then? Further price increases? That'll just push more players away. You can only raise the prices so high without at least giving a damn reason as to WHY. I wouldn't be so annoyed at GW if the head would give us a video of him saying why they are doing it. Give us some human factor at least. I would feel a lot better then as it is justifide. But no, we just see the WD message which has become more like the barer of the end of the world somewhat when it just says "Price increases this summer/winter etc".

I really wish we could get through to gamesworkshop with this issue, but unless we do so together, we are not going to see anything happen. In order for anything that we say to be taken seriously there needs to be at least a couple of 1000 people voicing their concerns if not more.

I think we should try to start a movement or something. Get our voices heard to gamesworkshop. What happened to the friendly hobby company I remember? What happened to Chapter approved. What happened to what made Warhammer A HOBBY. Not a product to be sold and bartered. We need to do something soon, or else there isn't going to be much left for us to salvage...

This thread is starting to become quite inspirational!

 DONUTSREVENGED wrote:
The only problem I have with the price rises and all is that I see wide eyed children that are the age I was at when I started (back when it was A LOT cheaper) and I just feel so sad for them that they are just going to be cold shouldered by GW unless they are spoilt rotten by their perants. This is a great hobby to get into but the problem is that GW is making that door smaller and smaller...

People say that GW profits on the "one time whine" of a child and that is it.... well, what happens once that stops? What then? Further price increases? That'll just push more players away. You can only raise the prices so high without at least giving a damn reason as to WHY. I wouldn't be so annoyed at GW if the head would give us a video of him saying why they are doing it. Give us some human factor at least. I would feel a lot better then as it is justifide. But no, we just see the WD message which has become more like the barer of the end of the world somewhat when it just says "Price increases this summer/winter etc".

I really wish we could get through to gamesworkshop with this issue, but unless we do so together, we are not going to see anything happen. In order for anything that we say to be taken seriously there needs to be at least a couple of 1000 people voicing their concerns if not more.

I think we should try to start a movement or something. Get our voices heard to gamesworkshop. What happened to the friendly hobby company I remember? What happened to Chapter approved. What happened to what made Warhammer A HOBBY. Not a product to be sold and bartered. We need to do something soon, or else there isn't going to be much left for us to salvage...

Guess you missed Darthspader's post, huh?

When I was in middle and high school, I was a member of a local gaming club. I used to watch people playing Warhammer, but I had no way to afford it. 15 years later, I was in a position to afford it, sort of. If your point is that Games Workshop should slash its products and prices simply to be affordable to everyone, you have no grasp on the definition of a hobby. It is not up to them to lose money in order to be affordable. Hobbies are niche markets with prices set by costs. There is no requirement that they have to be priced at X, Y, or Z due to economic factors, that is usually what happens to actual commodities like food and materials, in other words, actual economic indicators.

Grow up and realize that prices are there for a reason. Otherwise, Ferraris would be affordable. Everyone who has the mkney may buy one, but are they really a necessity? Nope. Same with hobbies.

 DONUTSREVENGED wrote:
The only problem I have with the price rises and all is that I see wide eyed children that are the age I was at when I started (back when it was A LOT cheaper) and I just feel so sad for them that they are just going to be cold shouldered by GW unless they are spoilt rotten by their perants.

I started when I was 9. For the longest time I only had the stuff from the 2nd edition starter, because I couldn't afforcd it on my allowance. As I got older, and that grew a bit, I could afford the odd single model. It wasn't until I got a job myself that I could afford all the things I wanted.

Hell, I remember paying $60au for a Carnifex in 2nd edition after saving for a long, long time. They're $83 now. I actually felt bad at spending so much of my allowance on one model. My Tyranid army was made up of a Hive Tyrant (that I got for Christmas), Carnifex, Lictor (they weren't as expensive), some Tyranid Warriors (that I think I got for my birthday), and Genestealers scrounged from my brothers Space Crusade copy and my cousins.

If you had it good way back then in school without having a part time job, it's because you were spoiled then. The only difference now is you need so much more to play a decently sized game.

GW products are mass produced in China. The is no reason for GW to be expensive.

Just because someing is a hobby doesn't mean its a luxury. I like to walk in parks I've never been to. That's a hobby.

I like to draw. A stack of paper and some pencils isn't exactly a luxury.

I've made a pact with my friends. We're not buying GW anymore. We have our armies. We have torrents.

I'm moving on to Warmahordes. A game I swore I'd never play. But I can buy into it with $250. That's rulebooks and models. A rather big collection at that.

Compared to GWs $125 entrance fee, I'd say Warmahordes is a much better pile of metal, resin and plastic to spend my hobby cash on.

P.S. I may take a look at DUST and Dystopian Wars also.

Edited for sleepy mistakes.

 SoloFalcon1138 wrote:
Grow up and realize that prices are there for a reason. Otherwise, Ferraris would be affordable. Everyone who has the mkney may buy one, but are they really a necessity? Nope. Same with hobbies.

Sooo, plastic toy soldiers are analogous to a Ferrari now?

Grow up and realize that prices are there for a reason. Otherwise, Ferraris would be affordable. Everyone who has the mkney may buy one, but are they really a necessity? Nope. Same with hobbies.

I think your mixing up two things . What GW can make with the price , being more or less a monopolists in the table gaming market and what is good for the wargaming WFB/W40k community future growth . I said it in a post before . When 2k becomes the standard size non tournament game and the price of stuff looks like it looks like it does right now , then new guys offten dont get to 2k pts before they quit way before that. Now veterans of course love that in a short run , because it does generate a steady second hand market . What it does not generate future long time players . Right now the hobby here is made out of dudes who started in the 90s early 2000s who can afford to switch armies or buy new ones and kids who start armies and never finish.

Alright so i think we might be getting a little off topic here, we are nto talking about the hobby, we are talking about the codex specifically and the rules bbook has also crept into the discussion to an exxtent.

the issue here is not so much the hobby but paying double for the exact same thing in terms of contentt. yeah okay shiny hardback, color pages, i get that, its cool. However there is no other option to simply get the (actual) rules and changed bits.

you are essentially forced to buy 90% of the exact same thing alll over again for double price.

paying $20-$30 for a single figure...i can live with that if it's a new model and stuff. yes the models are a bit pricey but it's not crazy....tho i'm not talking about finecast here lol, i dont' even know where to begin on that. but i digress.

there is a clear lack of options, you don't have to do away with price rises and expensive books, but i think you should also have an option to keep you in the hobby or keep you upgrading without essentially startign from the very beggingin in terms of books.

It really wasn't about the codex, but it was a cry-fest over an "unwanted full color, hardbound" book.

Everybody knows GW is expensive. You think making a thread about it is going to cause them to call a huge board meeting and drop prices? Nope. Pay, or dont pay. If you cant afford it, get on your local employment website and get a better job. Im here for the fluff, the image, the quality. I knew what I was getting into, and Im here to stay. If you dont like it, simply piss off because carrying on over it will affect NOTHING.

We are like wise here to stay and I believe this is a discussion thread about the outragouse chaos codex. Since price was listed as one of the reasons it stands to reason we would discuss other pricing conserns for other products of the company. These discussions do matter. They help companies determine their products reception to their customers. Just because you label us a wienners doesn't make it so. You two seem to enjoy jumping into threads and attacking other posters opinions rather rudely I might add. One of you in particular I seem to see quit a lot of lately aggressively attacking people in multiple threads. Just calm down. We're not insulting you in anyway, their is no need to be rude.

At the very least i think that these discussions, even if they don't influence the company directly can change it's user base slightly.

I for one will not be spending any money at a GW store for quite a while to come, and you might call me morally bankrupt but i will find a cheaper way or even free way of getting the rules i need to continue playing.

What this means is revenue lost fo rGW on this occasion, and thats 1 thing that big companies will feel. Maybe in discussions such as these mor epeople will make an impact .

 d3m01iti0n wrote:
Everybody knows GW is expensive. You think making a thread about it is going to cause them to call a huge board meeting and drop prices? Nope. Pay, or dont pay. If you cant afford it, get on your local employment website and get a better job. Im here for the fluff, the image, the quality. I knew what I was getting into, and Im here to stay. If you dont like it, simply piss off because carrying on over it will affect NOTHING.

do you know what the unemployment rate in the 18-25 age group is right now in europe ?

 DONUTSREVENGED wrote:
The only problem I have with the price rises and all is that I see wide eyed children that are the age I was at when I started (back when it was A LOT cheaper) and I just feel so sad for them that they are just going to be cold shouldered by GW unless they are spoilt rotten by their perants. This is a great hobby to get into but the problem is that GW is making that door smaller and smaller...

I really wish we could get through to gamesworkshop with this issue, but unless we do so together, we are not going to see anything happen. In order for anything that we say to be taken seriously there needs to be at least a couple of 1000 people voicing their concerns if not more.

Your first paragraph is the primary reason I am unhappy with their pricing schemes. I make beaucoup bucks these days so the prices don't really impact me directly. They impact me by friends who do not make as much as me wanting to get in and join the hobby with me, but just can't even remotely be able to afford to do so. With a start up cost of around $500 to get your rules, codex, and a 1500 point army most of the time, not even including paints and other hobby supplies to use, the game is out of the reach of many. Yeah it is a "luxury", but that doesn't change the fact that I'd like to share the hobby with my friends. I can readily supply armies to field an entire 4 player game myself, but even with that people eventually want to build their own army, based on their own ideas and interests and not necessarily on mine.

There needs to be more than just 1000 people. The GW gaming community would have to step up en masse to really get through to GW, but that is unlikely to happen at any point.

Skriker


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Rogues Gambit wrote:
there is a clear lack of options, you don't have to do away with price rises and expensive books, but i think you should also have an option to keep you in the hobby or keep you upgrading without essentially startign from the very beggingin in terms of books.

I am curious as to how many games you play where the company makes big shiny fancy rulebooks for a serious price and then at the same time offers a dirt cheap alternative to players as well? I can't think of any. There definitely are companies that make their rules available for free to support the mini lines they are creating, but that isn't the same animal. No company that is charging for its rulebooks does that. Yeah there are options like buying a starter set to get the "mini" rulebook, I don't think that is the kind of thing you are refering to here. It is a simple solution of: You want the book you buy the book. Not oh you want the book, but don't like the price so here you can download a bare bones version for free from our website instead...

Skriker

 Kaldor wrote:

 SoloFalcon1138 wrote:
Grow up and realize that prices are there for a reason. Otherwise, Ferraris would be affordable. Everyone who has the mkney may buy one, but are they really a necessity? Nope. Same with hobbies.

Sooo, plastic toy soldiers are analogous to a Ferrari now?

Actually in the context that SoloFalcon put it, yes, they are; they are both items which you might lust after with a passion but neither of which you need.

 Skriker wrote:


I am curious as to how many games you play where the company makes big shiny fancy rulebooks for a serious price and then at the same time offers a dirt cheap alternative to players as well? I can't think of any. There definitely are companies that make their rules available for free to support the mini lines they are creating, but that isn't the same animal. No company that is charging for its rulebooks does that. Yeah there are options like buying a starter set to get the "mini" rulebook, I don't think that is the kind of thing you are refering to here. It is a simple solution of: You want the book you buy the book. Not oh you want the book, but don't like the price so here you can download a bare bones version for free from our website instead...
Skriker

I just started Malifaux, and that is exactly what they do.

There are 3 Big Core Rule Books for each edition, which is packed with color pictures and fluff, and they each run you about 35 dollars- each one updates the last one as they change editions. They are the only way to get fluff for the backgrounds, and also the best way to check out the statlines and learn the rules for all of the enemy factions. They are really pretty books.

But hey, if thats not your thing, you can grab a really small portable rulebook thats about the size of the mini GW rulebooks for about 15 dollars. It doesn't have any fluff, or unit stats, but because the models come with stat cards it gives you everything you need to play when combined with your models. This is what I use as its not too expensive, and the perfect size for slipping into my miniatures bag.

Of you can download all of the rules for free right from their website... but obviously a pdf isn't as easy to reference as the small booklet.

I know that Wyrd is a lot smaller then GW, but you have to realize that both of them consider themselves miniature companies, not rules companies. The rules admitted by GW are just supposed to be a catalyst to get people excited to buy their miniatures.

 Crystal Geyser wrote:
This thread is starting to become quite inspirational!

This thread is becoming ridiculous.

A. The codex is way overpriced. Printing these codices is not becoming soooooo much more expensive that it justifies the price increase. Especially if, as rumored, the layout team is slacking off with old photos and rehashed fluff. This is a phenomenon where the lack of projected growth vs. overhead costs is what causes the inflation, not "market demand". The hardcover should be an option for someone like me who does in fact want to purchase it. I like it and want something that looks nice standing up on my shelf. A less pricey version in softcover should also be available and the PDF, across all platforms, version should be slightly less than the softcover. It's not market demand, it's called not fething your customers in the bunghole. By separating the two they would have created an artificial demand that would have made both sides happy.

B. The models are going to increase in price. Petrol is increasing in price and that snowballs like a biatch. Sorry, but it's the truth.

I don't want to offend anyone, but this thread hasn't evolved, it's just become bloated.

@Necroshea

We may be measuring with different standards here. I understand where you're coming from and I may have sounded pessimistic. That was not my intent. Realistically speaking, it takes much more effort than most people are willing to put in to gather armies in the way we both appear to have done. Most cheaper finds will not include the choicest bits and flavors, just the basics. Time and patience and a solid game plan are indeed necessary to collecting second-hand. I personally choose to use only local second-hand as I've been screwed by Ebay sellers before. Also, when placing a monetary value on my time vs. making it a matter of pride, I can afford to purchase regularly and with more patience than some others here. Being in it for the long haul, so to speak, gives one a different perspective.

I also refinish furniture for my house and that's far more expensive a hobby. Perhaps it's simply that there's where I choose to spend my money and also it's expense makes this hobby look cheap.

 Kaldor wrote:

 SoloFalcon1138 wrote:
Grow up and realize that prices are there for a reason. Otherwise, Ferraris would be affordable. Everyone who has the mkney may buy one, but are they really a necessity? Nope. Same with hobbies.

Sooo, plastic toy soldiers are analogous to a Ferrari now?

In a way it is.

GW could never ever compete on low-price. Look at Reaper throwing out 300+ miniatures for US$100,- Imagine some Chinese/Indian/Indonesian company starting up and putting out cheap mini's and free pdf-rulebooks on top of it.. Even if GW cut back literally everything but making cheap minis, cut their prices by 90%, 95%, etc.. , they'd still be more expensive.

GW is "skimming" the top of their niche (just as Ferrari is skimming the top of the car market because they cannot compete with mass-produced VW or Toyota on price).

Premium pricing is the practice of keeping the price of a product or service artificially high in order to encourage favorable perceptions among buyers, based solely on the price.[1] The practice is intended to exploit the (not necessarily justifiable) tendency for buyers to assume that expensive items enjoy an exceptional reputation or represent exceptional quality and distinction.A premium pricing strategy involves setting the price of a product higher than similar products. This strategy is sometimes also called skim pricing because it is an attempt to “skim the cream” off the top of the market.

Hell, the rulebook/expansion/codexes are the best example. There are quite a few companies out there that offer their rules for free. As far as rules goes, GW literally competes with "free". Ironic as it may be, Codexes and Rulebooks for US$ 2,50 cannot ever compete with "free". US$ 50,- Codexes or US$ 130,- Horus Heresy books, however, just might by capturing the very segment of the market that associates "free" with "ewww".

Of course GW has a quality and brand advantage.

GW quality is excellent and their brand is desirable.


If they simply dipped their prices to what they were 6 years ago they would likely see their sales skyrocket.

It doesn't have to be cheap, it just has to be at a point where some kid with a moderate allowance can actually play the game.

the core economic lesson here is simple. GW believes the average opurtunity cost is certain amount, and thats what people will pay for it. (and many do - as evidenced by the continuing trend of making things hard cover and more expensive)

if an individual cannot afford that cost, then they dont buy it. GW as a corporation, could really care less if you shell out the 60 bucks to buy it. because they have loads of other people who do. the corporation doesnt care if you think its overpriced, or rehashed, recycled, over valued or anything. all it wants is the monehz. if not from you, then from someone else. and if not from product 6357235273 then from product 989089623792. its the way the world market works.

now, if a company came along that did warhammer the same or better, and sold for cheaper, then GW can lower its prices and become competetive, (or sue them... *cough apple lawyers gettin around these days! cough*) if they dont, then they will loose sales, and have to adjust.

the fact of the matter is, while there are plenty of wargame companys that make minitures, they really dont have the scale and mass coverage that GW has. they are, for the moment the "apple" of the wargame world. most competetors lack in one or more departments, and the minis are less detail, or made of pewter or resin, and not plastic. untill such a competetor (with the global influence and clout GW has atm) prices will remain the same, and probally continue to climb. give it 5 years. books will cost 100$ and a box of marines will be about 50-60$. and so on.

anyway... lunch break over early. i have to transfer all the data from my old obselete iphone 4gs to the new and awsomer 5. ...

 akaean wrote:
I just started Malifaux, and that is exactly what they do.

There are 3 Big Core Rule Books for each edition, which is packed with color pictures and fluff, and they each run you about 35 dollars- each one updates the last one as they change editions. They are the only way to get fluff for the backgrounds, and also the best way to check out the statlines and learn the rules for all of the enemy factions. They are really pretty books.

But hey, if thats not your thing, you can grab a really small portable rulebook thats about the size of the mini GW rulebooks for about 15 dollars. It doesn't have any fluff, or unit stats, but because the models come with stat cards it gives you everything you need to play when combined with your models. This is what I use as its not too expensive, and the perfect size for slipping into my miniatures bag.

Of you can download all of the rules for free right from their website... but obviously a pdf isn't as easy to reference as the small booklet.

I know that Wyrd is a lot smaller then GW, but you have to realize that both of them consider themselves miniature companies, not rules companies. The rules admitted by GW are just supposed to be a catalyst to get people excited to buy their miniatures.

Yes and malifaux is made by one of those smaller companies that is more interested in selling its minis than its rules. That is *not* Games Workshop. Games workshop wants every penny they can get. Also Wyrd didn't start out with the high priced fancy rulebooks either. They *added* that level for demand, so they went the opposite direction that people want GW to go which makes them an even odder egg in the nest. Either way they need to give people a reason to stop playing the established systems and move to theirs. I play Malifaux and am one of those players that wanted more information. I wanted to know the capabilities of units *before* I spent money on them and discovered that they didn't even remotely fit my plans for them. Only having the unit rules/cards in with the minis meant that you often didn't find out your hopes for a unit didn't work until after you already owned and opened it which kind of sucked...

Too many 40k players have proven time and time again that they need very specific and clear rules spoon fed to them in detail or they do what they can to completely rape the rules. Less equals more headaches in 40k land in my book...

Skriker

Again - guys, I feel this is getting too hostile.

Shouldn't have been crying to those who spend the same amount as you do in this game...

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:

 Kaldor wrote:

 SoloFalcon1138 wrote:
Grow up and realize that prices are there for a reason. Otherwise, Ferraris would be affordable. Everyone who has the mkney may buy one, but are they really a necessity? Nope. Same with hobbies.

Sooo, plastic toy soldiers are analogous to a Ferrari now?

Actually in the context that SoloFalcon put it, yes, they are; they are both items which you might lust after with a passion but neither of which you need.

That's a terrible analogy.

I don't get the amount of complaining this codex price tag generates. I understand the complaining about miniature prices, as you need lots of them, but you just need one codex for your army. It will last about five years, so extra 20 really doesn't matter. And you actually get something for that money. You might not have asked for colour and hardback, but it is not like they arbitrarily raised the price just for laughs.

Do Malifaux run gaming shops? No? Then they have different priorities than GW

A *lot* of GW money goes intot he shops, and retail space is expensive. Asking them to double their coedx line to satisfy people who dont want to spend £30 every 5 years isnt oging to happen, as that doubles the amount of stock they need to carry AND display. Which costs money

*cue people stating they should shut up shop, without realising the deleterious effect that would have on the hobby as a whole. They dont run these shops for fun but for a very, very specific reason

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Do Malifaux run gaming shops? No? Then they have different priorities than GW

A *lot* of GW money goes intot he shops, and retail space is expensive. Asking them to double their coedx line to satisfy people who dont want to spend £30 every 5 years isnt oging to happen, as that doubles the amount of stock they need to carry AND display. Which costs money

*cue people stating they should shut up shop, without realising the deleterious effect that would have on the hobby as a whole. They dont run these shops for fun but for a very, very specific reason

Thats a fair point, I have to say i was not thinking about the shop fronts at all., but double product . sounds like double revenue for them, considering that i'm sure alot of people would buy a home codex and a go out nd play pamphlet codex.

but anyway i guess it's a moot point. For the most part, i am partially resolved to buying this new codex, i'll just have to budget for it, but be damned if i'm paying an OZ price, i'll pay what the rest fo the world pays.

Why are the Australian prices so much higher anyway? Is it some sort of bizarre tax thing?

no i dont' think so, but i do remember hearing that maybe someone from australia slept with the GW CEO's wife or something...anyway thats the rumor going around lol

 d3m01iti0n wrote:
If you cant afford it, get on your local employment website and get a better job.

This kind of attitude sickens me.

Back on topic. It is detrimental to new players, which I think is the problem. If you want a nice hard-cover book, with nice stories, there should be an option. There should also be an option for cheap army list with no added extras. This would not only satisfy many people's problems, but could even see GW making more money out of it as a lot of people would purchase both. One for the convenience and the other because the new army they just started is cool and they want to read the stories.

I also believe the prices in Oz are because of lack of manufacturing over there. Don't quote me on that though.

 Crimson wrote:
Why are the Australian prices so much higher anyway? Is it some sort of bizarre tax thing?

It's a combination of an old bs excuse from GW (exporting products to Australia is super duper expensive!) and a by product of our terrible dollar in the 90's. In the 90's, our dollar was about $3 per £1, so prices were obviously high. Now our dollar is quite good - about $1.65 per £1. The general public also knows shipping here isn't what GW makes it out to be.

So instead of revising their peice points, they embargoed us from importing from Europe and made up another bs excuse - wages are higher and rent is espensive. Bear in mind they pay their retail staff here about minimum for retail, and run tiny, tiny stores that any mom and pop store could rent and be profitable in. Very few are in prime retail space.

When you look at other industries though, the majority haven't changed their price points either, and you have retail giants like Harvey Norman petitioning the government to put sales tax on online sales to help them 'cope' with online stores offering better deals. The one disadvantage GW has in this arena over here is large chain stores will routinely run exceptionally good sales - for example, video games, are between 90au-110au new, but release week sales generally sit them at $70-$80. GW doesn't do this, because they don't feel the need to. They don't feel the need to because indie stores are very few and far between in Australia, so the competition isn't really here yet for the vast majority of casual gamers.

 Kaldor wrote:

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:

 Kaldor wrote:

 SoloFalcon1138 wrote:
Grow up and realize that prices are there for a reason. Otherwise, Ferraris would be affordable. Everyone who has the mkney may buy one, but are they really a necessity? Nope. Same with hobbies.

Sooo, plastic toy soldiers are analogous to a Ferrari now?

Actually in the context that SoloFalcon put it, yes, they are; they are both items which you might lust after with a passion but neither of which you need.

That's a terrible analogy.

I'd respond saying that's a terrible argument, but it's not really an argument at all. It's just you not having anything better to say.

It's not a terrible analogy because it fits and makes sense, so I'd give the guy some credit. It's not like he ever made them comparable in price, but rather the aesthetic that they sit on.

 Rogues Gambit wrote:
At the very least i think that these discussions, even if they don't influence the company directly can change it's user base slightly.

I for one will not be spending any money at a GW store for quite a while to come, and you might call me morally bankrupt but i will find a cheaper way or even free way of getting the rules i need to continue playing.

What this means is revenue lost fo rGW on this occasion, and thats 1 thing that big companies will feel. Maybe in discussions such as these mor epeople will make an impact .

And here is the catch-22. As more people feel priced out, they look for "other" ways to acquire the rule sets, which means less people are buying the product, and GW need to increase the prices further to compensate.

Secondly, Oil prices. Oil prices have risen rapidly over the last few years, especially with the wars in the middle east. This effects fuel costs, which impact Gw's net costs when selling models AND plastic is made from oil.. Increased oil prices will result in increased plastic prices.

Thirdly, what people seem to forget is when you buy a codex, you don't just pay for a book. Your paying for printing, rules designers, play testers, word processing, professional layout, CAD services ect ect. These costs all need to be recovered somehow.

I'm not gonna sit here and tell you the rule book is a "great" price. I do think it's rather expensive; however, if you wanna play it, you gotta pay it. Thats what it boils down too.


Oh.. and at least they try to give you a hardback, full colour fluff filled book. They could toss out any old crap black and white book and still charge silly $$$'s for it.

People comparing Warhams to Ferrarris might literally be the funniest thing to ever happen on Dakka.

 Skriker wrote:
I am curious as to how many games you play where the company makes big shiny fancy rulebooks for a serious price and then at the same time offers a dirt cheap alternative to players as well? I can't think of any.

Infinity has their rules online for free and also sell the hardback rulebooks. They even have free army building software available to use both online and as a stand alone downloadable program.

In fact, Piazo has most of their core pathfinder stuff online as well, while still selling the books.

iTunes should be the cheapest legit way to get a copy. They are coming out with it per the White Dwarf I read. White Dwarf is cheaper on iTunes as well, and it is way better than the actual book. It has zoomable pics in high res, videos, etc that the mag does not have.

Except apple take 30% cut, making iTunes no cheaper a model than standard distribution

Again: having two lines of codexes doubles the amount of space in a shop, for less than double the increase in revenue. There's a reason they have condensed their ranges, eg online only sales, and retail cost is a big driver

£30, for the use you get and the quality, is fine, personally. Not saying I wouldn't like it cheaper, but understand the actual economics unlike a fair number of people, here and elsewhere.

I'm a little sad that the MRB was 80$ and pretty much became a paper weight when the FAQ arrived. iTunes at least updates for you the new info.

 Kaldor wrote:

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:

 Kaldor wrote:

 SoloFalcon1138 wrote:
Grow up and realize that prices are there for a reason. Otherwise, Ferraris would be affordable. Everyone who has the mkney may buy one, but are they really a necessity? Nope. Same with hobbies.

Sooo, plastic toy soldiers are analogous to a Ferrari now?

Actually in the context that SoloFalcon put it, yes, they are; they are both items which you might lust after with a passion but neither of which you need.

That's a terrible analogy.

Nope. Let's see. Food: everyone needs it. Shelter: everyone needs it. These are real world necessities. Once these things are taken care of, which usually includes those stupid things called job, bills, taxes, rent, grocery bill, etc., then we are able to invest in non-essential items, like a nice pair of shoes, a movie, a relaxing drink, or a Ferrari. No one ever said, "I'm dying over here, Get me some Chaos minis or I may may actually die."

Grow up, and stop bombarding us with a whine thead that should be filed under "First World Problems." We all know how.much this hobby costs. If it expensive, but you enjoy it and want to play it, after necessities are taken care of, save your pennies.

No one ever said, "I'm dying over here, Get me some Chaos minis or I may may actually die."

very false idea about humans you have there dude . any psychologists will tell you that if someone is part of a group or worse wants to be a part of one and doesnt have the abilty to sustain the membership , which in the case of w40k would be having an up to date codex and army , then at best he is in for some mild depresion and at worse if prolonged it actualy may end in death and even if it doesnt it rises the chance of heart diseases or cancer by a substential enough amount for it to show in medical data . So yeah , if someones hobby is wargaming then being unable to take part in it , can end in death.

Makumba wrote:

No one ever said, "I'm dying over here, Get me some Chaos minis or I may may actually die."

very false idea about humans you have there dude . any psychologists will tell you that if someone is part of a group or worse wants to be a part of one and doesnt have the abilty to sustain the membership , which in the case of w40k would be having an up to date codex and army , then at best he is in for some mild depresion and at worse if prolonged it actualy may end in death and even if it doesnt it rises the chance of heart diseases or cancer by a substential enough amount for it to show in medical data . So yeah , if someones hobby is wargaming then being unable to take part in it , can end in death.

Wow, then I should have died a while ago, because I wanted to play 40k really bad, but I was in high school and couldn't afford it then.

Oh wait, I actually do have clinical depression. Hearing it related to hobby handicaps is insulting. I play my hobbies to feel better. If I don't have the latest and greatest, I make do and save for it.

Is it time for this ridiculousness to be locked yet?

 SoloFalcon1138 wrote:

Makumba wrote:

No one ever said, "I'm dying over here, Get me some Chaos minis or I may may actually die."

very false idea about humans you have there dude . any psychologists will tell you that if someone is part of a group or worse wants to be a part of one and doesnt have the abilty to sustain the membership , which in the case of w40k would be having an up to date codex and army , then at best he is in for some mild depresion and at worse if prolonged it actualy may end in death and even if it doesnt it rises the chance of heart diseases or cancer by a substential enough amount for it to show in medical data . So yeah , if someones hobby is wargaming then being unable to take part in it , can end in death.

Wow, then I should have died a while ago, because I wanted to play 40k really bad, but I was in high school and couldn't afford it then.

Oh wait, I actually do have clinical depression. Hearing it related to hobby handicaps is insulting. I play my hobbies to feel better. If I don't have the latest and greatest, I make do and save for it.

Is it time for this ridiculousness to be locked yet?

QFT and seconded

Hey Solo, the sad thing is that there are people who are clinically depressed who can be pushed over the edge by simply not getting something they desire for one reason or another (admittingly, this does seem silly and as someone who is depressed this to me sounds more like a case of stupid brat doesn't know how the world works). And Makumba definitely wasn't singling you out so why you took insult to this, is frankly, quite silly.

Someone shut this thread down.

Hetelic wrote:
Secondly, Oil prices. Oil prices have risen rapidly over the last few years, especially with the wars in the middle east. This effects fuel costs, which impact Gw's net costs when selling models AND plastic is made from oil.. Increased oil prices will result in increased plastic prices.

As a commodity oil prices are always up and down and as does any other country that uses petroleum in their products GW uses the same excuse schema:

1) If prices go up they have to raise prices to pay for "tomorrow's" oil.
2) If prices go down they have to keep prices the same because they paid for the oil they already have.

So prices *never* go down in the retail sector. Just like airlines they raise ticket fees when fuel prices go up to $X, but never change them when fuel prices drop below $X. Eventually prices reach $X again and they raise prices *again* even though they already raised prices due to that price point.

All in all it is a great racket to be in.

Skriker

Warmachine will probably be the game that challanges GW's dominance of the wargaming community.

But I doubt it will alter GW's prices or sales much. People are more likely to play both.

And GWs current customers won't stop playing 40k, they will simply slow their purchases until they have enough income to be able to afford it(IE: a real job in the real world) at which point its still cheaper then other more common hobbies, such as fishing, shooting, ATVing, camping, cars or motercycles, or smoking just to name a few. I really can't figure out how anyone can afford to smoke. $5 for a middle of the road pack that lasts a couple days, if that.

 Grey Templar wrote:
Warmachine will probably be the game that challanges GW's dominance of the wargaming community.

I really hope not... really don't like the aesthetic of Warmachine...

Am I reading this right? Are people actually saying GW should lower their prices incase someone with issues kills themselves because they can't afford a Codex? And I thought the internet couldn't get any worse.

Makumba wrote:

very false idea about humans you have there dude . any psychologists will tell you that if someone is part of a group or worse wants to be a part of one and doesnt have the abilty to sustain the membership , which in the case of w40k would be having an up to date codex and army , then at best he is in for some mild depresion and at worse if prolonged it actualy may end in death and even if it doesnt it rises the chance of heart diseases or cancer by a substential enough amount for it to show in medical data . So yeah , if someones hobby is wargaming then being unable to take part in it , can end in death.

Here is how the rational and mature mind deals with this: Discovers hobby they enjoy is just too expensive anymore. Either continues on only with what they have, or they accept they cannot do it anymore, get sad for a while and then find something else to do that they can enjoy *and* afford at the same time. People who obsess about things they don't or cannot have need to be taught to stop obsessing about it. It is a mental dysfunction. People can waste their entire lives obsessing about things they don't have and ignore what they do have and do so all the time.

The key here is to change your thinking and mental habits, not just complain until people lower the prices enough for you to buy again, because there will always be something else you can't afford or another group you cannot be a part of that you will obsess about. The key is to be happy in life as yourself and not define that happiness by what you have and what you don't have. As soon as your happiness is abdicated to some outside source you will never be happy because no outside source has ANY control on whether you are happy or not. So people who say, "Life will be great if I just get that new car," and similar type statements will soon find life is not great because *they* are the impediment to them being happy and not their car.

Skriker

 SilverMK2 wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:
Warmachine will probably be the game that challanges GW's dominance of the wargaming community.

I really hope not... really don't like the aesthetic of Warmachine...

Meh, its just different. I kinda like the Steampunk feel.

It also has many advantages over GW.

Its cheaper. $150 will easily get you a competitive army.

Its got great external balance between factions. None are better then the others.

Not to mention you can do some crazy stuff on the table, so even a game where you get creamed you can still have lots of fun(this does apply to GW games too though)



Just the other day I lost the game and the only casuality was my caster(on both sides) It was a really epic combo strike that led to assassination. Awsome is all I can say. So we reset.



Overall its simpler to get the hang of the rules, but it takes alot to master the subtle strategy of the game.

 Grey Templar wrote:
or smoking just to name a few. I really can't figure out how anyone can afford to smoke. $5 for a middle of the road pack that lasts a couple days, if that.

My father smoked when I was a kid and laugh today when I see that a single pack of cigarettes actually costs more than an entire carton when he used to smoke. Your estimate of a couple days depends on habits too. Some people smoke *2* packs of cigarettes in a single day. That is just stupidly expensive...not to mention buying minis you aren't destroying your lungs every time you "enjoy" your hobby...wow...

I have some friends who smoke and they complain about never having any money. I sat down with them and did he "smoking math" with them and it went in one ear and right out the other. With their level of habit they are spending close to $250 a month on cigarettes. That is a pretty sizable chunk of change for doing other things with in their budgets.

Skriker

My copy of the Codex, along with some of the HQ models ships to me this weekend. Can't wait to go through it!

I like war machine so far. Easy to get started.

 SilverMK2 wrote:
I really hope not... really don't like the aesthetic of Warmachine...

I don't think the key here is replacement, so much as start pulling enough people from the GW games to start GW to realize that they are being undercut in the market place and change their pricing schema. At least that is my take on the intent of the post you responded to.

What games like Malifaux, Warmachine and Flames of War have going for them is that their start up costs are so much less painful than 40k which a lot of new mini game players are discovering. Those of us who are established in the hobby and have 1 or more complete armies to use are not really impacted as much by the GW prices. I can honestly say, though, that if I never played the game and looked at how much it would cost me to make my first army today I probably wouldn't get into it, even with the amount of money I bring in. It is just ludicrous.

I guess the best analogy would be the slow lobster cook as opposed to the throw the lobster in the already boiling pot method. If you put a lobster in a pot of cold water and then slowly heat it up it will not really budge and allow you to boil it to death as long as the temp increase is gradual, whereas if you drop it into the boiling pot it fights to escape pretty aggressively. We old timers are the lobsters in the slowly heating pot. By now we have so much time and money invested in the game we are letting GW continue on to boiling us to death with highe prices, but the newbs run away screaming when they see how expensive everything is.

Skriker


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 kronk wrote:
My copy of the Codex, along with some of the HQ models ships to me this weekend. Can't wait to go through it!

I got suckered into one of those advance release batches of stuff...greatly looking forward to its delivery, though.

Any duplicates on the plastic kits I want I'll order later from the Warstore.

Skriker

 Skriker wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:
or smoking just to name a few. I really can't figure out how anyone can afford to smoke. $5 for a middle of the road pack that lasts a couple days, if that.

My father smoked when I was a kid and laugh today when I see that a single pack of cigarettes actually costs more than an entire carton when he used to smoke. Your estimate of a couple days depends on habits too. Some people smoke *2* packs of cigarettes in a single day. That is just stupidly expensive...not to mention buying minis you aren't destroying your lungs every time you "enjoy" your hobby...wow...

I have some friends who smoke and they complain about never having any money. I sat down with them and did he "smoking math" with them and it went in one ear and right out the other. With their level of habit they are spending close to $250 a month on cigarettes. That is a pretty sizable chunk of change for doing other things with in their budgets.

Skriker

Pack of Marlboro is $6 here. So roll my own. I can roll a carton for $13. I'm a pack a day smoker.

Edit: Put the town not the brand

 Grey Templar wrote:
It also has many advantages over GW.

It can have as many advantages as it wants, doesn't change the fact that I don't like the look of the models

 SilverMK2 wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:
It also has many advantages over GW.

It can have as many advantages as it wants, doesn't change the fact that I don't like the look of the models

I agree. I'm starting Warmachine and only because I can tolerate the Mercenary Dwarf models. Everything else looks stupid and silly.

Why do all the monsters have hands larger than their torsos? How do their hearts pump that much blood?!

Is there a way to shut down a thread? This getting way too heated in general and I feel responsible for inadvertently causing a log of needless tension.

Hit the yellow triangle on the top right of your post and send a message to the moderators about shutting down your thread.

Thank you!

 KorPhaeron77 wrote:
I'm staggered by the overwhelming amount of "advice" which is basically saying "deal with it or quit". I'm sorry but it isn't that simple, when I started the hobby I believed it was fair to expect to pay for an £8 codex despite them being thin on detail and not very long, 8 quid was a small amount of my hobby budget so sure why not. Then they gradually crept up to about £12 over several years and it was also as the books started to get thicker and more detailed so I accepted it. Then they shot up to £17.50 and I thought woah this is a getting stupid now, especially as they even bumped the prices of the older codices like Dark Angels and I stopped buying new releases unless I actually intended on collecting an army. Now however a £30 price...almost double what it used to be...no I can't justify that anymore. And for all you in the "deal with it" crowd, yes I have unfortunately decided that I can't sustain the rising cost of the hobby anymore and I have ebayed 4 of my major armies already, some of which I've had for nearly 10 years. My point is, why should I have to resort to quitting because GW can't keep prices fair? I was a loyal customer for the past 14 years and I'll still buy BL books and take an interest in the fluff but I will not be buying for the game again.

As for the ebay crowd, fair play to you if you want to buy things second hand and slowly build your force. But what kind of buisness model is that! Imagine if Apple came out and said here's are 10,000 dollar Iphone 6, if you cant afford one then tough, why dont you wait 3 years and buy it on ebay and quit your bitching. Also another industry which many feel is over-priced; video games, they are priced highly yes, but a game 3 years out of date gets a price reduction not increase. Fine GW feels the need to make new vehicle boxsets £40 but how the hell can the justify rasing the price of all the 4-7 year old kits to match the new ones?

If we're all so reliant on ebay then what's the point of GW at all anymore, lets stop buying, let them go bankrupt, buy ebay models and work together as a community to create fan made codices and rule books instead. Hey we all hate GW updates anyway from all the complaing on dakka, who needs them.

Actually, it really is this simple: accept their prices or quit buying. There are enough people still going out and paying their prices, that the only way to really avoid the price hikes is to stop buying. Now, not buying=/=quitting. You can still play the game-play old editions, or everyone in your group can go in on an ebay purchase together for a book. Play your old models, don't get the new shiny flavors, and go with it from there. It really is a simple idea. If you choose not to, that's your choice.

 Crystal Geyser wrote:
Is there a way to shut down a thread? This getting way too heated in general and I feel responsible for inadvertently causing a log of needless tension.

Dynamite the internet

 TheAngrySquig wrote:

 Crystal Geyser wrote:
Is there a way to shut down a thread? This getting way too heated in general and I feel responsible for inadvertently causing a log of needless tension.

Dynamite the internet

Oddly enough, thats quite possable. You just need to explode the Server Farm that's storing what you want destroyed, or the very least hack into it and eliminate it remotly.

Then you need to kill the backups, and the backups to the backups...

 Grey Templar wrote:

 TheAngrySquig wrote:

 Crystal Geyser wrote:
Is there a way to shut down a thread? This getting way too heated in general and I feel responsible for inadvertently causing a log of needless tension.

Dynamite the internet

Oddly enough, thats quite possable. You just need to explode the Server Farm that's storing what you want destroyed, or the very least hack into it and eliminate it remotly.

Then you need to kill the backups, and the backups to the backups...

Have I ever mentioned that its scary that you know that?

Just takes a little research.

And I can ruin anyone's online reputation in about 5 minutes.

Hetelic wrote:

 Rogues Gambit wrote:
At the very least i think that these discussions, even if they don't influence the company directly can change it's user base slightly.

I for one will not be spending any money at a GW store for quite a while to come, and you might call me morally bankrupt but i will find a cheaper way or even free way of getting the rules i need to continue playing.

What this means is revenue lost fo rGW on this occasion, and thats 1 thing that big companies will feel. Maybe in discussions such as these mor epeople will make an impact .

Secondly, Oil prices. Oil prices have risen rapidly over the last few years, especially with the wars in the middle east. This effects fuel costs, which impact Gw's net costs when selling models AND plastic is made from oil.. Increased oil prices will result in increased plastic prices.

In 2008 oil went over $140 a barrel. Today's price is about $92 a barrel. So that dog won't hunt.

Hetelic wrote:
Thirdly, what people seem to forget is when you buy a codex, you don't just pay for a book. Your paying for printing, rules designers, play testers, word processing, professional layout, CAD services ect ect. These costs all need to be recovered somehow.

All these costs were recovered just fine back in the days of paperback codices. Another excuse that fails.

Hetelic wrote:
I'm not gonna sit here and tell you the rule book is a "great" price. I do think it's rather expensive; however, if you wanna play it, you gotta pay it. Thats what it boils down too.

Or, like the quoted poster wrote, you could find alternatives, like buying one book for an entire group, or copying a buddy's book, or other more dubious alternatives.

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:
Am I reading this right? Are people actually saying GW should lower their prices incase someone with issues kills themselves because they can't afford a Codex? And I thought the internet couldn't get any worse.

No, you're not reading it right. To bolster the hilarious argument of "GW = Ferarri", someone posted that since miniatures aren't a basic human need, they are obviously luxury cars. Then the reply was "Well, studies have shown that depression is linked to physical symptoms when wants aren't met" more as a way to counter an asinine argument and not actually saying "this will totally happen."

Here's a list of other things that are luxury cars according to this argument, by the way:

Books
Television
Internet Forums
Luxury Cars
Video Games
Snack foods
Computers
Telephones

AH, someone not understanding an analogy there then

They aren't equivalent in every way, just that they share one equivalence - this hobby is not a necessity, similarly a ferrari is not a necessity

Just buy the book, or dont. Whining about it has absolutely no positive outcome, as you are an irrelevance to GW

I'm sure companies love negative advertising. Especially a company like GW which relies almost entirely on word of mouth to generate sales and interest.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
AH, someone not understanding an analogy there then

They aren't equivalent in every way, just that they share one equivalence - this hobby is not a necessity, similarly a ferrari is not a necessity

Just buy the book, or dont. Whining about it has absolutely no positive outcome, as you are an irrelevance to GW

I would add that harassing people that don't like the price similarly doesn't have a positive outcome, Mmm?

 Harriticus wrote:
Noticed the "Art of Halo" in the bookstore the other day. 200 pages, hardcover, and in full color with highly detailed pages. Was $20.....

Also remember that that book on hard cover came out over 5 years ago when the drop of halo 3 happened.........So new old price tag. You walk into any hobby stroes (not just game stores) and expect not to put a lot of money into a model train set, model helicopter, car, or etc. That is just naive. And actually insulting to your intelligence. If you pick any hobby in the world minus croche, you will spend money. If you do not want to participate, remember you drove yourself to the store. You bought the models. You bought the paints. All using you money. Suck it up

 wowsmash wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
AH, someone not understanding an analogy there then

They aren't equivalent in every way, just that they share one equivalence - this hobby is not a necessity, similarly a ferrari is not a necessity

Just buy the book, or dont. Whining about it has absolutely no positive outcome, as you are an irrelevance to GW

I would add that harassing people that don't like the price similarly doesn't have a positive outcome, Mmm?

Sure it does, it makes people with more money feel good about themselves/their purchases.

As for "Well we said ferrari but it's not equivelent in every way" then I offer a similar analogy: a pile of garbage. If words don't mean anything then GW = garbage.

I want a Ferrari. I can't have one cause GW took all my MONEHZ. Now I'm depressed and gonna jump off a bridge.


Really???

No offense but if that's the case you got more issues then not being able to afford a 50$ book. Seek council. Most local governments offer free therapy to low income (re: poor) people. Take advantage of it.

Not affording a luxury item you want is entirely a first world problem. Be happy you have that issue, and you know... Not leprosy and only getting a handful of flour per month to live on. Yeesh. Next topic pls??

Look, there seems to be a bit of misinterpretation that's generating some hostility. I'm going to rectify it.

Iam not trying to whine about the prices. Do I like them? No. Admittedly my original statement regarding the use of full color and hardback could indeed be perceived as whining, but that was not the intention.

Whining would be to just complain about GW's prices without trying to either change it or find a way around it. I know I can't change GW's prices, but I'm trying to find an alternative. That's the point of the this thread. Many of you have contributed great suggestions - ebay, friends etc are all great ideas.

But comments such as "quit your btiching" or "stop crying" don't really help anybody. I mean, they just don't. So if people could please stop that then I would be most appreciative.

Brother Gyoken wrote:

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:
Am I reading this right? Are people actually saying GW should lower their prices incase someone with issues kills themselves because they can't afford a Codex? And I thought the internet couldn't get any worse.

No, you're not reading it right. To bolster the hilarious argument of "GW = Ferarri", someone posted that since miniatures aren't a basic human need, they are obviously luxury cars. Then the reply was "Well, studies have shown that depression is linked to physical symptoms when wants aren't met" more as a way to counter an asinine argument and not actually saying "this will totally happen."

Here's a list of other things that are luxury cars according to this argument, by the way:

Books
Television
Internet Forums
Luxury Cars
Video Games
Snack foods
Computers
Telephones

Except the guy never said that, he made a comparison, not an equation. It's an analogy. But you ramp it up into this bizarre post, and then preach about others making 'asinine' arguments. Rich

 Crystal Geyser wrote:
But comments such as "quit your btiching" or "stop crying" don't really help anybody. I mean, they just don't. So if people could please stop that then I would be most appreciative.

Yeah good luck with that. You create a thread by posting a comment. The thread continues by others posting comment. You have no control over any of it except your own posts. Why do you keep trying to tell people how to post? If you have your answers then leave a happy man and let those beating the dead horse continue to do so at their leisure. Guaranteed the best way to not end a thread is telling people what not to post.

Skriker

GW are already charging above what the market will bare. In a few years the (relative) prices will start dropping again, or at least start matching inflation, and until such time its up to the individual if their products are worth buying. For me they aren't.

In the meantime I buy from Ebay and its ilk, GW haven't received a single penny from me in years and I have just finished a 2000 point Death Guard army which cost me about £100 (including 5 vehicles and almost universal Forgeworld bits).

 Skriker wrote:

 Crystal Geyser wrote:
But comments such as "quit your btiching" or "stop crying" don't really help anybody. I mean, they just don't. So if people could please stop that then I would be most appreciative.

Why do you keep trying to tell people how to post?
Skriker

Mostly because people are donkey-caves a lot

as far as finding an alternitive to getting the information in the codex, you have 2 legal ways of doing so. buy the book from the store or from a friend, or purchase the ipad app from the apple book store. other then that, your left with borrowing a copy or obtaining one through illegal means. either by downloading a pirated version, - wich can lead to virus and spyware problems, plus its illegal, or photocopy / steal it from a physical copy. obviously im not condoning or suggesting any of these, as they are illegal and can land you in serious trouble if your caught doing so.

what ive done in the past is just borrow a book. my friend loaned me his new IG codex when it came out, as he bought it but never built the army. since then the dex has become pretty much mine, as he has never asked for it back, and when i mention it he says i can hang on to it untill he needs it - in return he has a few of my WD issues. (the spearhead and stormraven issues i believe) so perhaps you can work out some kind of trade. if you have an army one of your friend collects, offer a trade. models for the codex. - this works great if you have a large collection of minis your not using, and just collect dust and your wife is on your case to clean them out of "her" "living room"...

as far as general GW price increases ...well... my thoughts have been posted and they wont change. so i wont bother reposting them. anyway, good luck getting your copy of the codex - but personally.... i just LOVE getting a new book. and if its done to a decent standard, like the latest brbs for fantasy and 40k, or the ogre army book... then i find the money is worth the product. some dont feel that way, and im not saying you should either way. but i guess thats life untill you actually decide to take the red pill.... here's a bunch of blue ones to tide you over.

 TheAngrySquig wrote:
Mostly because people are donkey-caves a lot

And telling people what not to post changes that how?

Anyone who's been in a computer forum for more than 2 minutes knows that doesn't work...

Skriker

 Skriker wrote:

 TheAngrySquig wrote:
Mostly because people are donkey-caves a lot

And telling people what not to post changes that how?

Anyone who's been in a computer forum for more than 2 minutes knows that doesn't work...

Skriker

Why not try? Dakka pretends to have really high standards

Wait Squig - I just noticed the quote on you sig.

Did I forget to tell you about that?

 Skriker wrote:


I don't think the key here is replacement, so much as start pulling enough people from the GW games to start GW to realize that they are being undercut in the market place and change their pricing schema. At least that is my take on the intent of the post you responded to.

What games like Malifaux, Warmachine and Flames of War have going for them is that their start up costs are so much less painful than 40k which a lot of new mini game players are discovering. Those of us who are established in the hobby and have 1 or more complete armies to use are not really impacted as much by the GW prices. I can honestly say, though, that if I never played the game and looked at how much it would cost me to make my first army today I probably wouldn't get into it, even with the amount of money I bring in. It is just ludicrous.

I guess the best analogy would be the slow lobster cook as opposed to the throw the lobster in the already boiling pot method. If you put a lobster in a pot of cold water and then slowly heat it up it will not really budge and allow you to boil it to death as long as the temp increase is gradual, whereas if you drop it into the boiling pot it fights to escape pretty aggressively. We old timers are the lobsters in the slowly heating pot. By now we have so much time and money invested in the game we are letting GW continue on to boiling us to death with highe prices, but the newbs run away screaming when they see how expensive everything is.


Skriker

This. Great analogy (I didn't think the Ferrari one was too far off, other than the fact that you don't need to have a group of other Ferrari owners around to enjoy it). I too am in the old timer group that continues to let GW boil me to death with their prices. I have several armies...and have had and sold many more over the years (now decades) and when I was in high school in the early 90's, living at home and working...almost all my disposable income went into buying Warhammer 40K (and helping build up GW into the behemoth it has become today) . Then, when I was in the Marines, living in the barracks with a steady paycheck and nothing to spend it on, I got loads more models, books, etc. Today, even though I make quite a bit more money, I have a wife...two kids...another one one on the way....the hobby has to take a back seat....and I find myself feeling like those kids who are priced out of it. At least I still have loads of stuff I got from over the years to work with though. The people just now getting into the 'GW' hobby have it rough.

My purchases have steadily moved to other game systems over the years, Warmachine/Hordes, Infinity, Malifaux, Flames of War (although they've been getting more and more GW-like recently)...because I can get more for my money. And more people are willing to start up these smaller scale skirmish games (again, FoW excluded). My last GW purchases were the Skaven re-boot, and then it was only to add a few things here and there. But then Jes Goodwin ( I cant decide whether to bless him or to curse him!) went and re-designed the entire Dark Eldar range...

I knew I was still just a hopeless plastic-crack junkie when I got a unit of the new warriors...then the Codex...then a battleforce box....then I went all in and did up the full army, complete with 3 Ravagers and 5 Venoms....It took me over a year to get it all, but I learned that I have a problem...and that I should probably get help.

Yes. $50 for a 100 page book with some color photos (That is REQUIRED to play the army you may or may not already have.) for me, is a bit steep. Malifaux has the little $15 rules manual and a big full color rulebook if you want the pretty pictures and back story. Infinity sells a nice hardback book, but you don't need it to play the game...the rules are available online for free. Privateer Press released a (close to) 150 page full color hardback book for each of its factions for $45 AND offered a full color soft back version for $10 cheaper....AND they released all of them (10) in the span of about 12 months....AND you don't need the books to play the game...as each model comes with a card detailing its stats, points cost, restrictions and special abilities.

Angels of Death was one of my first codex purchases, and I want to say it was $17.99? or somewhere thereabouts. I remember it was quite thick too, somewhere between about 130 to 150 pages...lots of color diagrams and photos, not to mention it had army lists for two unique Space Marine Chapters. Has inflation really gone up 200+% in that amount of time? No, They charge it because they can. Because chumps like me will still buy it to validate the hundreds (no, thousands) of dollars we've spent on buying their models for the last 20+ years. But I cant afford to buy one for all of my current armies...nor can I afford to keep updating them all. Sadly, I think I may have to end up selling off many of my models just to fund the few expensive updates I need to make to the 2 or 3 I keep.

As was stated before...me and my first world problems...

 Skriker wrote:

 TheAngrySquig wrote:
Mostly because people are donkey-caves a lot

And telling people what not to post changes that how?

Anyone who's been in a computer forum for more than 2 minutes knows that doesn't work...

Skriker

You understand that "quit whining about the prices" is ironically the exact same thing you're railing against, right?

So.... don't ask people not to make pointless posts about not whining, but making posts telling people to "stop whining" is ok?

Perhaps one of the very few instances in life where you can say "both sides are equal" and actually be correct.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Godless-Mimicry wrote:
Except the guy never said that, he made a comparison, not an equation. It's an stupid analogy. But you ramp it up into this bizarre post, and then preach about others making 'asinine' arguments. Rich

Just like the guy you quoted never said GW should lower their prices lest someone kill themselves. It's a hypotehtical to combat a stupid analogy. But you ramp it up into this bizarre post and then preach about asinine arguments. Rich

Brother Gyoken wrote:
You understand that "quit whining about the prices" is ironically the exact same thing you're railing against, right?

So.... don't ask people not to make pointless posts about not whining, but making posts telling people to "stop whining" is ok?

Perhaps one of the very few instances in life where you can say "both sides are equal" and actually be correct.

Ummm...who's railing against anything? I am just pointing out the commonality of the internet forum experience. Once you've had your say you have zero control over anyone else's say so it is silly to try and make them stop having their say. No railing. No whining. Just point of *fact*. No judgements of any kind from me. I really don't care what anyone posts. Note the effective use of those little orkie smilies to show that I find this whole topic pretty funny and amusing. Didn't realize that laughing at the forum experience is now considered "railing". Consider me chastised...not...

Some of us can comment on things without being personally upset or bothered by them in the least, such as this. The OP is free to also post whatever he wants, but seemed to be spending energy on worrying about what others were posting in the thread, which is something he has absolutely zero control over. Just offering advice to avoid wasiting the energy being concerned.

Skriker