... and what would, say, Privateer Press pay their equivalents?

Just curious

They get paid in miniatures.

And love. Miniatures and love!

 kronk wrote:
And love. Miniatures and love!

What he said.

<--Game Designer.

I mean moneywise

A 10th of a pittance.

Although seriously, most game designers already work with codexes, etc. They already get paid, and might get a bit of a cushion in addition for the games.

 BlapBlapBlap wrote:
A 10th of a pittance.

Paid in monthly installments of 1/120th of a pittance.

 ExNoctemNacimur wrote:
I mean moneywise

No idea. I went to the GW website out of curiosity, but there aren't any open positions for game designer.

Check here from time to time if you're interested in working for GW as a game designer.

 Cyporiean wrote:

 kronk wrote:
And love. Miniatures and love!

What he said.

<--Game Designer.

And possibly your name in a book.

The particular 3D talents required look to be around £25,000-£35,000 on average outside London, but up to £50/60k for the broadest range of talent. It being GW, I'd imagine that they would try and get away with £25K.

If any GW 3D designers are reading this, feel free to PM me if you want to share anonymously.

I'll try to ask regarding PP, I have 2 friends that currently work for them and one who formerly did. Although none of them are/were designers, they may know who to ask.

That said, PP rarely hires designers, they tend to be hiring other staff and when they ARE hiring, it's always posted on the main page.

Probably not very much. As horrible as GW is to their fanbase and independent retailers, I can't imagine what they treat the non-bigwig employees like.

Probably dirt cheap as they get a LOT of quality interviewees for the position.

If you want to earn big money from GW, become a sculptor, and become very very good at what you do.

Then, start freelancing for GW's competition and there will be a job offer on your table super-quick.

PP at least seems to offer decent benefits, judging from what they list when they post job offers on their website. My guess is that for game designers it's probably a mid-range salary of about $50K/year, plus various benefits including ridiculous discounts on minis. I also imagine that they often work really long hours; seems like game design is the sort of job that "never stops".

I seem to remember hearing a designer got about 30k UKP a year. It was certainly less than I make now....

Didn't they advertise some position recently? There was some talk of it here on Dakka (a few people applied I seem to recall). I think the wages were not much better than minimum wage really.

I would imagine, like many companies, you start in a very junior position on a low wage and then as you rise in seniority, you get the pay rises to go with it.

Ah for some reason I'd misread the original post as model designers. Game designers are around £20-30K if I recall correctly, and that is closer to £20k. They ditched many of the old ones who had been grandfathered in to larger salaries to save on expenses a few years back when they were cost cutting if I recall correctly.

The entry level "Assistant Game Developer" position they advertised earlier this year was offering around £14-15,000 GBP.

pgmason wrote:
The entry level "Assistant Game Developer" position they advertised earlier this year was offering around £14-15,000 GBP.

Yikes! That's even less than I remembered!

I think there was a fair bit of conjecture and speculation surrounding it - a fair few people think they deliberately pay so low to a) cut costs and b) weed out the dreamers - the assumption being that only those who *really* want to work for GW will do so for such a poor wage.

GW Designer probably starts around 30-35k.. and maybe an intermediate is making 45k, and a lead around 60k.

I'm in the 3d design field, and expect to be underpaid and overworked because a lot of design fields don't have degrees and are usually seen as easy because your "Designing" its not "real" work. They figure you hit a button and the computer does all the work for you.

"Computer, I need a new line of Chaos Space Marines, now hurry up! "

Tell that to the investors

pgmason wrote:
The entry level "Assistant Game Developer" position they advertised earlier this year was offering around £14-15,000 GBP.

Ow.

can you even live on that in the UK?

 Kid_Kyoto wrote:

pgmason wrote:
The entry level "Assistant Game Developer" position they advertised earlier this year was offering around £14-15,000 GBP.

Ow.

can you even live on that in the UK?

I imagine most of the people applying/filling the position will be graduates fresh out of uni and potentially still living with parents which would help soften the low wage since they aren't paying rent/bills etc. Otherwise, I can imagine renting a flat or what have you, even in Nottingham and paying food, bills, council tax etc out of £14-15K would be pretty tricky.

Sounds painful. Maybe that's not the job for me.

 Kid_Kyoto wrote:

pgmason wrote:
The entry level "Assistant Game Developer" position they advertised earlier this year was offering around £14-15,000 GBP.

Ow.

can you even live on that in the UK?

I'd kill for £14k a year.

Rule of thumb - the "cooler" the job the less it pays.

Yeah, you can live on 15k a year, like. Especially if you don't have to pay anything for your GW fix.

 filbert wrote:
...the assumption being that only those who *really* want to work for GW will do so for such a poor wage.

So many companies have that attitude, its pretty sad. Word to the wise, if you're looking for a job avoid anything that says they want someone who is "dedicated" or has an "entrepreneurial spirit"... Its hiring manager code for, "We want someone who can't leave and is willing to work in an underfunded department while probably needing a second job to make ends meet."

decoste007xt wrote:
GW Designer probably starts around 30-35k.. and maybe an intermediate is making 45k, and a lead around 60k.

I'm in the 3d design field, and expect to be underpaid and overworked because a lot of design fields don't have degrees and are usually seen as easy because your "Designing" its not "real" work. They figure you hit a button and the computer does all the work for you.

"Computer, I need a new line of Chaos Space Marines, now hurry up! "

Tell that to the investors

You're joking right? It's probably half that.

I wouldn't get out of bed for the wage GW employees are on.

Sculptors: not enough.
Rules devs: whatever they get is too much

£15K a year for an entry level position in a company you may genuinely wish to move up in is a really, really good prospect for a lot of people. You'll have just shy of a thousand pounds a month in your pocket and if you can't live on that, you've got problems as a functioning member of society.

A lot of people earn the same/less than that, hate their job and have no prospects for moving up and they manage to get out of bed in the morning.

 Davylove21 wrote:
£15K a year for an entry level position in a company you may genuinely wish to move up in is a really, really good prospect for a lot of people. You'll have just shy of a thousand pounds a month in your pocket and if you can't live on that, you've got problems as a functioning member of society.
.

One must caveat this by pointing out in some areas -- London and the SE generally -- one would indeed struggle to get by on that sort of money.

Nottingham is, thankfully, a fairly cheap place to live in the UK. This is reflected in thnigs like house price and the like.

 Davylove21 wrote:
You'll have just shy of a thousand pounds a month in your pocket and if you can't live on that, you've got problems as a functioning member of society.

Please tell us that you are joking?

If you are living on your own, just shy of a thousand pounds is barely enough for rent (that alone takes away more than half your 1000,- but usually more, and you better hope that gas & water are inclusive), the bills for your phone/internet/tv and such, insurances, taxes, small necessary daily expenses added up, and food. You would be able to afford almost no luxury items at all (including new clothes/shoe, let alone GW miniatures ).

Or maybe in the UK everything is really cheap, and in that case I must move there asap

 TBD wrote:

 Davylove21 wrote:
You'll have just shy of a thousand pounds a month in your pocket and if you can't live on that, you've got problems as a functioning member of society.

Or maybe in the UK everything is really cheap, and in that case I must move there asap

If we look at Nottingham as an example, where most GW jobs are based, rents seem to be fairly low:

http://www.rightmove.co.uk/property-to-rent/Nottingham.html?sortByPriceDescending=false&maxBedrooms=1&displayPropertyType=flats&oldDisplayPropertyType=flats

So I think living there in a 1 bed flat or possible house sharing, you could manage on £14-15K; I think it would be a bit of a squeeze and you wouldn't have much left over for savings, recreation etc. but there you go.

Where I live in the South/South East of England, the crappiest of 1 bed flats will run you, say, £600 a month, so living on £14-15K would be difficult.

Where in south east do you live Filbert?

For a uni grad that is used to living in shared housing it is possible, and most will kill for 14-15k a year but mainly for getting a job.


Round essex it is as Filbert says, studio flats are 500 min in not very nice areas and houses are upwards of 1200 a month, to buy it is min of 150k for flats, 240k for houses but as we are just outside of london there is a huge south east tax on most things including food petrol etc, I was in nottingham the weekend and noticed the difference, small it maybe on a day to day basis but it adds up.

There are benefits of course for working for GW and some arent to be overlooked

MarkyMark wrote:
Where in south east do you live Filbert?

For a uni grad that is used to living in shared housing it is possible, and most will kill for 14-15k a year but mainly for getting a job.


Round essex it is as Filbert says, studio flats are 500 min in not very nice areas and houses are upwards of 1200 a month, to buy it is min of 150k for flats, 240k for houses but as we are just outside of london there is a huge south east tax on most things including food petrol etc, I was in nottingham the weekend and noticed the difference, small it maybe on a day to day basis but it adds up.

There are benefits of course for working for GW and some arent to be overlooked

I live in Basingstoke so am right on the very border of the 'London circle' in that the further east one ventures, the further house/rent prices rise. As I said earlier, I expect the majority of applicants for the GW jobs are likely to either still be living at home or in shared accommodation as it keeps the costs down.

 filbert wrote:

 TBD wrote:

 Davylove21 wrote:
You'll have just shy of a thousand pounds a month in your pocket and if you can't live on that, you've got problems as a functioning member of society.

Or maybe in the UK everything is really cheap, and in that case I must move there asap

If we look at Nottingham as an example, where most GW jobs are based, rents seem to be fairly low:

http://www.rightmove.co.uk/property-to-rent/Nottingham.html?sortByPriceDescending=false&maxBedrooms=1&displayPropertyType=flats&oldDisplayPropertyType=flats

So I think living there in a 1 bed flat or possible house sharing, you could manage on £14-15K; I think it would be a bit of a squeeze and you wouldn't have much left over for savings, recreation etc. but there you go.

Where I live in the South/South East of England, the crappiest of 1 bed flats will run you, say, £600 a month, so living on £14-15K would be difficult.

Yes of course there are cheap areas out there, but for most people who live anywhere near a city those prices aren't reality ( as you also indicate).

He wasn't even talking about 14/15K either, but about SHY of 1000,- a month (so less than 12000,- a year).

If you just finished your college/university/education/whatever and start working a 1 bedroom or house sharing is not what you want (because that is the kind of craparoo you just dealt with when you were a student). The prices in the link are about the regular rate for student rooms down here. Moving on from that you look at least at double that, probably the same as where you live.

I believe the 1K a month was after taxes etc etc.

You are right, he did say that.

Still it would be very tight. 15000 - 12000 = 3000 = 250 a month. Let's say that covers taxes + water/gas if that isn't included in the rent + maybe the phone/tv/internet bill. Maybe insurance fits in there too, but Idk. Probably not. You'd still have rent, so unless you are in one of those cheap places that's still 500 + food 150 (?) = 650. Small daily expenses easily add up to about 100 at least, so that leaves slightly around 250, but probably less, to have a hobby, go out occasionally and buy new clothes once in a while, etc. God forbid you own a car which needs gas and your hobby isGW

As someone who actually lives near nottingham (about 14 miles away), you can live VERY comfortable for £14k a year. Whinging Londoners.

 Testify wrote:
As someone who actually lives near nottingham (about 14 miles away), you can live VERY comfortable for £14k a year. Whinging Londoners.

Depends what your standard of 'living comfortably' is, I suppose.

And here I am in an apartment in southern California thinking any place you don't hear gunfire at night, or that doesn't have a 60 minute commute, would be lucky to have rent cheaper than what would equivalently be £1000/month, crying over my $1800/month rent.

My impression is that game company employees tend to be relatively badly paid overall, be they miniature makers or computer game designers. I know a few people here and there in the world that do that sort of work, and while they aren't exactly starving, they hardly make the same as other established commercial entity employees in their countries. This also seems to go for contract work artists; game companies aren't big spenders.

Lots of people want to make or contribute to games, it seems.

 TBD wrote:
You are right, he did say that.

Still it would be very tight. 15000 - 12000 = 3000 = 250 a month. Let's say that covers taxes + water/gas if that isn't included in the rent + maybe the phone/tv/internet bill. Maybe insurance fits in there too, but Idk. Probably not. You'd still have rent, so unless you are in one of those cheap places that's still 500 + food 150 (?) = 650. Small daily expenses easily add up to about 100 at least, so that leaves slightly around 250, but probably less, to have a hobby, go out occasionally and buy new clothes once in a while, etc. God forbid you own a car which needs gas and your hobby isGW

Lots of people would kill for £250 a month to spend on themselves.
You can survive easily in nottinham for 15K a year, i know people that house share on 12k, its a cheap place to live.

Mat Ward gets paid with the tears of whiny Draigo haters

 filbert wrote:

 Testify wrote:
As someone who actually lives near nottingham (about 14 miles away), you can live VERY comfortable for £14k a year. Whinging Londoners.

Depends what your standard of 'living comfortably' is, I suppose.

Thats true, we are all different.

For example, when I eat gak and drink booze, I feel awful. After I put some weight on during my last 3 week bender (vacation) in June (Budapest, Munich, Brussels if your remotely interested) I put myself on a diet when I got back, and I think for all of July I only got drunk twice.. (Two Saturdays when my will gave out!)

I ate no bread or carbs... feth all but a small bowl of porridge for breakfast, chicken breasts, beans, a few salad items and maybe two cartons of fruit juice and the occasional choccy bar, and I think for the whole month I spend about £70 on food and about £60 on booze on the two days in my local. All the rest of the time I was at the gym, reading, painting, playing video games.. doing anything to avoid the pub.

I was very very comfortable.

I don't know where I was going with this.. I think the point was that "comfortable" is very subjective indeed, because I feel strong, healthy and happy when I live Spartanly and spend feth all on niceties other than my gym membership.

When I'm on holiday and living like a millionaire, eat in restaurants, and booze 5-6 days a week, I tend to feel like committing suicide by the third week of the month.

If you know what's good for you, I suggest living like a monk. This is also linked to my argument for cutting wellfare in half. It can't be a coincidence that poor people are more likely to die young. Its because the fethers drink more, smoke more, and eat more pasties!

Living like a peasant is good for your mental and physical health, so "comfortable" can many times lead to "uncomfortable"

As a PhD student living in Cambridge and getting less than £15k a year I would say you can live well enough. In Cambridge that is definitely not enough to live on your own but I imagine if you are starting a career out of uni you will most likely be sharing anyway. And I also imagine Nottingham to be a lot cheaper than Cambridge. So in the end yes you can live well enough as long as you don't overspend too much. Booze can be quite expensive as well as eating out, but if you cook your own meals and try to save some money you can definitely live well with less than that.

 filbert wrote:

 Testify wrote:
As someone who actually lives near nottingham (about 14 miles away), you can live VERY comfortable for £14k a year. Whinging Londoners.

Depends what your standard of 'living comfortably' is, I suppose.

Well it works out at £270 a week. Allow £60 a week for rent, plus another 20 or 30 for bills, then another tenner for counsel taxes. Easily gives you over £100 a week for vices.

 Testify wrote:

 filbert wrote:

 Testify wrote:
As someone who actually lives near nottingham (about 14 miles away), you can live VERY comfortable for £14k a year. Whinging Londoners.

Depends what your standard of 'living comfortably' is, I suppose.

Well it works out at £270 a week. Allow £60 a week for rent, plus another 20 or 30 for bills, then another tenner for counsel taxes. Easily gives you over £100 a week for vices.

Or saving up for a rainy day.

.. £ 10 for counsel (sic) taxes ?!?!



Oh to be young again.

£60 a week for rent ain't happening in the professional sector..
Realistically you're looking at £300 a month for rent, assuming you share.
Then another £50-60 a month for council tax.
Another £100 for bills/phone/tv license/etc etc

So you've got between £400-500 a month to buy food, clothes, transport costs etc etc. Certainly survivable, but not luxurious by any stretch.

Ok let's look at this from a rough estimate of my current living status vs 15k a year (before tax)

Salary: 15,000 PA
Montly Income: 15,000/12= £1250
Let's take off our tax contributions at ~20% = £1000.

Monthly Outgoings:
Rent (3 bed house in fairly crappy S Wales area, probably 1 bed flat in nottingham): ~£400
Council Tax: ~£45 with 'Living Alone' Allowance (I pay £80 with 2 people sharing, and discount is about 50% IIRC)
Gas/Electric: ~£40 (20 on each, assuming £/kWh is similar to that of a token meter as you are renting)
TV License: £20
Internet (lets face it, you're not going to live without t'internet): £20 (phone, unlimited 20meg broadband, line rental)
And lets not be ignorant and remember you are going to be commuting to work, so that could be: ~£30 per week on petrol if driving, ~£50 per month on public transport assuming you live in nottingham on don't commute from outside the area

Single person council deduction is 25%.

Whilst I'm sure Nottingham/similar areas are cheaper with regards to this it can vary quite a bit.

I share a semi detahced house with 2 bedrooms and a box room/3rd bedroom and our bill is a shade over £1400 per annum.


....

 reds8n wrote:
.. £ 10 for counsel (sic) taxes ?!?!



Oh to be young again.

£60 a week for rent ain't happening in the professional sector..
Realistically you're looking at £300 a month for rent, assuming you share.
Then another £50-60 a month for council tax.
Another £100 for bills/phone/tv license/etc etc

So you've got between £400-500 a month to buy food, clothes, transport costs etc etc. Certainly survivable, but not luxurious by any stretch.

Hey look, £62 a week: http://www.zoopla.co.uk/to-rent/details/18175468?search_identifier=c3def626df909f6bb0f28bac1cf1be93
£100 a month on bills if you're mad. Personally I never turn on the heating if I'm paying the bills, so that leaves what internet + phone contract? Plus a negligable amount for electricity and water.

I don't like this thread. I'm unemployed and poor and being told by people with well-paid full time jobs how awful it is, having well-paid full time jobs. .

From your link

"This new concept in student living "

That's why it's cheap and would also therefore be unavailable for a full time professional games designer.

"well paid full time job" .. yeah, I live in luxury.

The bottom line is, whatever your circumstances and whatever your definition of living comfortable is, £14-15K is not a particularly competitive wage - it's only a pound or so per hour better than minimum wage and that takes no account of overtime etc etc. You could earn a similar or better wage in pretty much any retail environment - I would hazard a guess and say stacking shelves at night in a supermarket would pay better than this.

However, as has already been explained, GW deliberately price their wage low to weed out the undesirables. More power to them; I'm sure they aren't short of applicants and I bet there are a number of people that are willing to take the punt on a year or so of low wages in expectation of moving up the totem pole in the future.

Man, things must be a TON different in the UK. Living by myself, I could not live on $1600 a month. Between Rent, Insurance, Gas, Student Loan payments, and Utilities, I don't think I'd have any money left for food.

 cincydooley wrote:
Man, things must be a TON different in the UK. Living by myself, I could not live on $1600 a month. Between Rent, Insurance, Gas, Student Loan payments, and Utilities, I don't think I'd have any money left for food.

Well things are always relative as saying you can live in the UK it's a bit broad. In London you wouldn't be able to live with that either, other parts of the UK you can, but it is definitely not near enough luxurious. Just to put things in perspectives the minimum wage in Portugal is €450 and there families with kids getting only that income a month. What you need to consider is that the salary is on the low level you can get around here. I was looking for jobs and serving tea in a University (3h/day) pays £14000/year. So that is just how bad things are if you are thinking about taking the job for money

 Bacms wrote:

 cincydooley wrote:
Man, things must be a TON different in the UK. Living by myself, I could not live on $1600 a month. Between Rent, Insurance, Gas, Student Loan payments, and Utilities, I don't think I'd have any money left for food.

Well things are always relative as saying you can live in the UK it's a bit broad. In London you wouldn't be able to live with that either, other parts of the UK you can, but it is definitely not near enough luxurious. Just to put things in perspectives the minimum wage in Portugal is €450 and there families with kids getting only that income a month. What you need to consider is that the salary is on the low level you can get around here. I was looking for jobs and serving tea in a University (3h/day) pays £14000/year. So that is just how bad things are if you are thinking about taking the job for money

Right, of course things are relative. But I live in Ohio, and it isn't exactly the most expensive area to live in the country. Wages here are moderated by cost of living, so I'd make less than someone in San Fransico doing the same job to account for those costs of living. Maybe it's different in the UK simply because of size, I don't know.

I was just saying that certainly wouldn't cut it for me, mostly in response to the person commenting that you're out of touch with society if you couldn't live on that.

 cincydooley wrote:
Man, things must be a TON different in the UK. Living by myself, I could not live on $1600 a month. Between Rent, Insurance, Gas, Student Loan payments, and Utilities, I don't think I'd have any money left for food.

£14k is $22.5k, or $1,875 a month.

 cincydooley wrote:
Between Rent, Insurance, Gas, Student Loan payments, and Utilities, I don't think I'd have any money left for food.

Just because this is always worth repeating for UK'ers as it's a hotly debated topic and is always forgotten...

In the UK, you do not need to start paying your student loan back until you earn over £21000 per year, and if you haven't paid it back in 30 years from that point, the debt is wiped.

In the southwest, I was on £18k, renting a room for £400 per month (inc council tax, water, electricity) in a shared house. I did have a few hundred to spend on funness ever month at the end of it all, but I didn't have a tv and was, well, living in a bedroom and walking most places, including to work.

I can imagine regularly needing to use a car or "public" transport to get to work would make things pretty much unsustainable at the 14 to 15k mark.

Apparently my dozen or so friends on minimum wage who live around here are starving to death then

 Compel wrote:
n the UK, you do not need to start paying your student loan back until you earn over £21000 per year,

Although you can end up paying back even if you are not earning that; sometimes I get two weeks pages paid on a single cheque due to delays in processing the hours I work; because I get 80 hours worth of money at once the system thinks I am earning enough to pay back student loans, so I get deductions made even though I am getting paid for two weeks work, rather than just one.

and if you haven't paid it back in 30 years from that point, the debt is wiped.

Depends on the conditions in force when you applied for your student loan. Mine passes on to my next of kin when I die...

 filbert wrote:

 Testify wrote:
As someone who actually lives near nottingham (about 14 miles away), you can live VERY comfortable for £14k a year. Whinging Londoners.

Depends what your standard of 'living comfortably' is, I suppose.

Good darts dear sir!

That made me chuckle so much I spilt my drink, still the butler will deal with that it the lazy bugger ever gets back from waitrose!

I do love a hard done by student, their susidiesed lives are so difficult that anyone earning a wage has it simple!

Like Red I pay more in council tax in a month than some are stating in a year and I really am behind the earning curve in my part of the world.

My starting wage after uni was more than the designer salaries stated here and that was fifteen years ago. £14-15k is poor by any measure for a talented grad, but as with most things a company will get away with paying wha th applicant will accept. The company I work for would pay £16k to someone while putting them through uni, but I know of some of our undergrads that are on as little as £12k and have taken on second jobs as well.

 Testify wrote:

 cincydooley wrote:
Man, things must be a TON different in the UK. Living by myself, I could not live on $1600 a month. Between Rent, Insurance, Gas, Student Loan payments, and Utilities, I don't think I'd have any money left for food.

£14k is $22.5k, or $1,875 a month.

Before Taxes. Of which both the state and federal guv'ment help themselves to a healthy chunk. At an estimate 30% total tax rate, you'd be looking at between $1300-1400 a month here.

Average costs for Cincy-ish

1 Bedroom Apartment that isn't a complete shythole - $500 a month
Automobile Costs (Insurance, Gas, Parking) - ~$200 a month
Basic Phone Cost - $50 a month (this may be low, I have no idea)
Electric - ~$100 a month (if you pay a flat rate to cancel out the amount of power you use in the winter)
Internet - $40
Student Loans - $300 is pretty average for the middle class American that paid for college on their own

Puts you at around $1200 a month, and I didn't include food or a car payment or ANYTHING extra. That's all, pretty much, the basics.

So, god willing you dont get a flat tire. Or get sick and have to go to the doctor, etc. Many of the people making those salaries in the US are actually better off if they didn't go to college. But could they get the job if they didn't? There's our viscious cycle.

Wow, I didn't realise that this thread would generate so much controversy.

I know Matt Ward gets paid in the tears of gamers, but that is for another thread

 cincydooley wrote:

 Testify wrote:

 cincydooley wrote:
Man, things must be a TON different in the UK. Living by myself, I could not live on $1600 a month. Between Rent, Insurance, Gas, Student Loan payments, and Utilities, I don't think I'd have any money left for food.

£14k is $22.5k, or $1,875 a month.

Before Taxes. Of which both the state and federal guv'ment help themselves to a healthy chunk. At an estimate 30% total tax rate, you'd be looking at between $1300-1400 a month here.

But we're talking about the UK, not the states. But feel free to talk about US taxes and US student loans in a discussion about a wage in the UK

According to a website, 14k after tax is about £1,000 a month. Which, as I have said, is easily livable on £300 rent plus £100 or so for bills. Leaves about £150 a week for food an other stuff, even if you want to take out £25 a week to get the bus to work.

We are talking a full time designer job here, something that should let you provide for your familly and not a student job for people that either live with their parents or share rooms with buddies...

And before you come with bias about saving and living without luxury etc I can tell you I KNOW because I came from Portugal and lived there all my life.

300 rent is not realistic for a standart house or flat... and 1k per month is short for a familly...

Testify - how old are you?

You seem to be viewing this problem from a unique vantage point.

 Alpharius wrote:
Testify - how old are you?

You seem to be viewing this problem from a unique vantage point.

I turned 24 last weekend.

Since it's been brought up, what exactly is the standard for "living well" for the average Dakka member?

$22k a year or the equivalent in pounds is the standard!?!?

I'm not materialistic by any means, but $22k a year? really?... in the UK of all places!?!?!

Please enlighten me.

Well in the East Midlands where GW is based, the average salary is apparently £18,300 per annum.
Though obviously, it varies greatly. Personally I don't regard "Game Designer" as particularly prestigious but I'm quite middle class

 Testify wrote:
Well in the East Midlands where GW is based, the average salary is apparently £18,300 per annum.
Though obviously, it varies greatly. Personally I don't regard "Game Designer" as particularly prestigious but I'm quite middle class

Bringing enough money to put food on the table and a roof for your familly has nothing to do with prestigious...

 NAVARRO wrote:

 Testify wrote:
Well in the East Midlands where GW is based, the average salary is apparently £18,300 per annum.
Though obviously, it varies greatly. Personally I don't regard "Game Designer" as particularly prestigious but I'm quite middle class

Bringing enough money to put food on the table and a roof for your familly has nothing to do with prestigious...

Walk into a supermarket and you'll see a dozen people who get by on less than that.

 reds8n wrote:
From your link

"This new concept in student living "

That's why it's cheap and would also therefore be unavailable for a full time professional games designer.

"well paid full time job" .. yeah, I live in luxury.

It just means its aimed at students, anyone can rent it.
If you look hard enough im sure you will be able to find out that in nottingham, you can let a room for as low as £50 a week and there are plenty of ones going for £60 - £70 and thats even for a professional such as yourself.

I can't say I know of many families where the primary earner works on a supermarket till.

Generally, they're either students, secondary earners giving a family a cash boost or the semi retired.

I'm reminded of a guy that used to work at a Games Workshop I occasionally visited. The first time I went there fairly normal (for a person, not a GW employee). The second time, he was looking fairly beaten down. This continued the next couple of times I visited. Then, the last time I went, he wasn't there. Later on that day, I went to a fast food restaurant and there he was, far happier looking flipping burgers than I've ever seen him at Games Workshop.

 Testify wrote:
Well in the East Midlands where GW is based, the average salary is apparently £18,300 per annum.
Though obviously, it varies greatly. Personally I don't regard "Game Designer" as particularly prestigious but I'm quite middle class

Wow...

Coming from a decidedly low income background, I know people can get by on a meager income. Not quite the same as living well, but ignorance is bliss I guess. I never thought about it until the expansion of the suburbs into our area, then my family's 'failings' were all laid bare.

In the UK I guess it's easier to commute to work etc... perhaps some of the costs are offset by infrastructure? In the US, at least in my area, the commutes are typically 35-70 minutes to downtown with clear roads. Without any real mass transit a car is an absolute must as nearly everyone lives in a "bedroom community" of some sort. I am completely ignorant about living in the UK to be truthful,but I had entertained moving back to the family homeland once upon a time and thought it too expensive.

The one advantage I have is that my job and new circumstances don't require me to be anywhere and as of Oct 16th I will be my own boss. Which is why this particular thread and its contents caught my eye.

I'd say it's very difficult to compare commuting costs and the like between the UK and US, there is a lot of things that are just too different.

For example, as you say everything is incredibly spread out in the states whereas, in the UK that sort of travel time would send you to a completely different city.

Another big difference is fuel costs, I believe fuel in the UK is as an absolute minimum 3 times more expensive than the states due to taxes. I believe the costs of owning a car, such as road taxes are also significantly higher.

On the other hand, from what you're describing, the UK would seem to have a better public transport infrastructure but, then again, if you're travelling for 70 minutes somewhere on a bus, you'd probably be going in a completely useless route. EG, a 40 minute trip by car would turn into a 2 and a half hour odyssey round a dozen tiny villages to pick up 1 extra passenger by bus.

Additonally, public transport prices in general have gone completely crazy. Aside from all the details brought in that BBC article you still have events when return tickets end up being significantly less expensive than 1 single.

A mate of mine used to work for GW and ended up quitting partly because he worked out it was costing him just as much money to get to work as what he made in a day, despite still living with parents. As he was in a small town, he had poor transport links to the larger towns, so needed a car. The cost of running the car, plus about an hours worth of petrol each day, plus parking costs just made it unaffordable.

 cincydooley wrote:

Average costs for Cincy-ish

1 Bedroom Apartment that isn't a complete shythole - $500 a month

Just to put another data point in, that'd be dirt cheap in the DC Metro area. (East coast US.) My last appartment in a not-great area was well over $1,000/month when I first first leased it over 10 years ago. It was over $1,400/month when I moved out a few years back. :(

My house payment is actually less! Although, I'm responsible for repairs...

500/month in and around Houston is a gak hole in the ghetto.

 Testify wrote:
According to a website, 14k after tax is about £1,000 a month. Which, as I have said, is easily livable on £300 rent plus £100 or so for bills. Leaves about £150 a week for food an other stuff, even if you want to take out £25 a week to get the bus to work.

£100 a month on bills? I pay £95 a month on council tax on a 2 bed flat... I wish all my other bills cost £5

£300 a month rent? 0_o
Ill move in next week?

My rent on a 2 bedroom house in a normal ish area is £600 a month.
Throw in the car, thats another £110 a month.
Food, electric, gas, phone, internet etc - £400 a month.

Thats now £1,100 a month and thats not including alot, infact, throw in little things like TV liscence and it goes up even more.

After tax i bring home around £450 a week, which to be honest, isnt really a comfy amount to live on.

I'm not sure this discussion is necessarily comparing like for like. Certainly if you're in an "Oh god I need a job to feed my family and find somewhere to live" situation, you can maybe get by on £14k/year, but it's not going to be terribly much fun. Some people work for this, and less, for years.

But if you're looking for a job at this rate, I seriously doubt your first port of call is going to be the GW design department.

What GW is advertising is a career. And I'd say that the rate they're paying in that case is nothing short of predatory.

my 2 cents:
you can't survive for £14k/year, that's for sure, with family kids and this hobby. Whoever says its possible must be living in overcrowded house, without family, car or damn excessive hobby!

GW pays, in average £33k pa for experienced Game designer (+3% to 5% increase a year, just above inflation)...
One of GW guys (u know him, cant give the name) has PhD degree and is on approx.£38k pa.... he must love what he is doing as if you compare to other PhDs they on about £60k+ pa. Bear in mind everybody can be a game designer (does not req a degree, does it) even a Italian-English translator! )

To put things into context, A full timer on 35 hours a week at the current UK national minimum wage would earn £11,265.80 per year before deductions.

£14-15k is roughly comparable to a call centre operator, retail supervisor, entry level office admin or other similar role.

These figures are a couple of years old, but the UK mean average salary is around £25,000 per year, and the median is around £20,000.

You work in the GW studio because it's what you really want to do, not because of the money. I've applied several times now and got a little further in the process each time - last time I actually got to the interview stage, along with 7 others out of over 100 applicants. I'll continue to apply next time there's a vacancy, because it's really what I want to do.

best of luck to you to !

I recall going for an editorial position (sub-editor) in the Studio last year. The pay was between £16,000 and £18,000. I'd like to think the Design Team are on at least that.

 Hercule Pyro wrote:
A Stoofer avatar

Respect is due!

To put things into context, A full timer on 35 hours a week at the current UK national minimum wage would earn £11,265.80 per year before deductions.

£14-15k is roughly comparable to a call centre operator, retail supervisor, entry level office admin or other similar role.

These figures are a couple of years old, but the UK mean average salary is around £25,000 per year, and the median is around £20,000.

Quite.

And for more context a 'living wage' is deemed to be around £14 000 a year (sufficient to house, feed and clothe oneself plus a cheap two-week holiday and what some might consider minor luxuries -- not actually enough to, say, enough to raise a family).

For those used to the student lifestyle and who are prepared to live in shared houses and live cheaply, £14 000 a year might seem like luxury. For anyone aspiring to more than that, it's a bare minimum (and the true 'minimum wage' scarcely enough to do more than subside on).

 Blood and Slaughter wrote:

For those used to the student lifestyle and who are prepared to live in shared houses and live cheaply, £14 000 a year might seem like luxury. For anyone aspiring to more than that, it's a bare minimum (and the true 'minimum wage' scarcely enough to do more than subside on).

Oh hey, i heard you vote Tory?

Your bog standard staff at GW don't get much. going rate or less from what i know. I know at least one of there star artists/sculpters at one point was on at least 70k+ i think closer to 100k pa (thats GBP). I have no ideas about the game designers, i would think that seriously strong mathematics for various situations to balance things right would be key, making things fun in comparison is fairly easy as just trawl forums and you get lots of great ideas etc (i am sure plenty of people would debate this but in comparison to creating mathematical models i would find it easier). Someone with good maths or math/physics/engineering degree = 30-35k average in the uk to hang on to them i think, due to the 'fun' aspect of the job in that you probably get to play i would say 30k ish.

 notprop wrote:

 Hercule Pyro wrote:
A Stoofer avatar

Respect is due!

I think in all the years and on all the forums I've used this avatar, you are the only person to recognise it.

nevertellmetheodds wrote:
Your bog standard staff at GW don't get much. going rate or less from what i know. I know at least one of there star artists/sculpters at one point was on at least 70k+ i think closer to 100k pa (thats GBP). I have no ideas about the game designers, i would think that seriously strong mathematics for various situations to balance things right would be key, making things fun in comparison is fairly easy as just trawl forums and you get lots of great ideas etc (i am sure plenty of people would debate this but in comparison to creating mathematical models i would find it easier). Someone with good maths or math/physics/engineering degree = 30-35k average in the uk to hang on to them i think, due to the 'fun' aspect of the job in that you probably get to play i would say 30k ish.

£30-35k? Starting wages for someone with an MEng is around £25k. The post people are looking at at £15k is more of an apprentice level post, and for that around that area £15k is good money, more than I got paid in my first post uni job, and I am down south. They probably don't require jobs for this know of roll, but 5 c+ GCSE's, 3 good alevels and an interest in the games, for which that sort of wage is good. I'm sure that if a graduate applied with the right qualifications they would be in with a good shot, as long as they could show they were not a dreamer going to dissapear soon.

For those who are interested and are complaining £14-£15k is not anough to live on:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-19857121

It is enough to live on when your young, plenty in fact.

On £14k you take home £1004

Rent on a studio flat in nottingham:£300 pcm
Ctax: £70 pcm
Other bills approx £100pcm (water heat electricity)
Food and other day to day living: £160 pcm
Total for basic living £630pcm

Leaving you with £370 to pay for the rest. After transport, phone, clothes and the other things you need to buy but are not essential your probably left with about £150-200 to spend on enjoying life. Not a huge amount but at that age (early 20s) plenty. You don't give a crap about savings or hobbies at that point. I, and everyone I know, was happy as long as there was enough to go out for beers for the first three weeks and buy 4 cans of larger and a bag of chips by the last weekend of the month.

I get the feeling some people have either lived very privalaged lives or have too high expectations of what life will be like. When I was at uni I thought I was going to leave, get a car and a nice 3 bed house, but life aint like that.

http://www.citizensuk.org/wp-content/uploads/2011/06/The-Living-Wage-in-the-United-Kingdom-May-2011.pdf

Outside London, living wage is £7.20 per hour. That's £280 a week assuming a 39 hour week, which is £14 600 per year. this isn't some radical left-wing nonsense, it's an idea embraced even by the Tory party leadership.

It's certainly possible to get by on less than the living wage, and I managed it quite happily myself for 20 or so years. But it is not sensible to suggest that it's either possible or desirable for the majority of people to do so. It is in fact generally those from more comfortable backgrounds who do find themselves happy to earn below or around the living wage, often because there is an implicit 'safety net' provided by parental wealth, even if that is untapped. For the majority of people whose parents are not home owners and have themselves earned less or around living wage throughout their lives, things are usually not so cosy. They may even wish to have children before they're 30, or harbour other such dangerous ambitions. . .

So far as I can ascertain, GW pay their shop staff something rather below the living wage (because they work less than a 39 hour week). I would presume that the designers get rather more but I'd be very surprised if it exceeded £30 000 a year.

I wasn't saying trying to start something about the living wage, just saying that £14k is enough to live on as a starting wage. I don't think it is desirable long term wage, just that it is enough to happily live on in your early 20's as a starting wage in what is really a trainee level in an area with a low cost of living and not some horrific slave wage that some seem to think. I lived on less than that for the about 5 years so am fully aware of the costs of being on that income.

I have no problem with the living wage and am aware that it is a minimum not an ideal. Please don't think that I'm some right wing nut with the "well they can just get a better job" idea. Or that I'm from a rich background.

I'm sure shop staff do get less, but that is another discussion to do with the rights and wrongs of retail in general, which by the way I think is a moraly bankrupt sector often reliant on a low wage cycle of poor education and lack of training to keep there staff trapped in their jobs, from supermarkets to small independantes. There are many things broken with out system, from wage disparity to house supply restrictions, but that is about the system in genral, not what one company pays trainee staff.

And possibly your name in a book.

Meh,
I've got that twice already doing freelance writing for wargames companies, an Osprey "Elite" series title in the works, and a several magazine articles to my credit. I'm also talking to a couple of literary agents about my first novel. (now THAT's were the real money is as far as writing) Getting your name on a book is admittedly very cool. But the "wow" factor wears off after a while and it certainly does not pay the bills at the salaries we've seen thrown arond on this thread.....and rest assured those are HIGH for the gaming industry. The low and mid level companies I've written for pay a lot less than that.

I'm shocked and just realized something. No-one has brought up the obvious:

Q: How much dose Matt Ward get paid?
A: Too Much.