Ok, so i recently tried a combo i have been curious about for quite some time.

10 wraithguard with a conceal seer w witchblade
Farseer with 5 powers and witnessing runes
Eldrad
2 wraith lords.

The goal, depending on the opponent, will be to either roll the foreboading power, or the invisibility power.

I tried this in a game and it was un believable. With the rest of my army supporting it, it was unstoppable. I have tried this unit in three seperate games and its nigh unstoppable. If im playing against a melee death star, i shoot it and then overwatch at full bs. Of course you could say that its dependent on dice, but the way psychic powers work i have to keep rolling until i get different powers, so 5/6 of the powers in a lore are mine, i have a great chance of getting what i need.

The unit spends the 1st turn or two moving and running into position with defensive buffs up while my support units ping down the enemy ( 2x5 pathfinders, and 13 guardians w eml, 2 wraithlords w dual flamers, bright lance and eml @ 1500) once in position it goes into roman phalanx mode and marches into the enemy while spearing it with guided wriathcannon fire.

If i fight hordes, i will go more towards a buff debuff style where i aim for the fearless removing power and pound a single unit with ranged fire while removing its fearless etc. I am quite excited by the results but this is NOT FOR FRIENDLY GAMES!!! This single unit ruined my opponent 3 games back to back, he was quite frustrated by my "eldar cheesy bs" haha. Anyways, comments criticisms and suggestions?

And how many points does this unit cost?

Also, are you including the Wraithlords in the unit to share the buffs, or are they just standing around nearby?

*cue pic of Willy Wonka*
So your 766+pt unit is incredibly powerful? Tell me more.

In all seriousness though, yes it is a very powerful unit however it has a glaring weakness of CC, speed + weapon range, or failing your cast of Invisibility. For that point cost I'd much rather take a Seercouncil + Divinationseer + fortune/doomseer.

The Wraith-Council as I like to call it is good, but not the way you have built it. You have spent so many extra points on redundant abilties, i.e. the Farseer. With Eldrad alone they have a re-rollable 3+ save, with a re-rollable cover save in the open at T6, which is enough to keep them alive most of the time, and those other powers like Doom and Guide really make them a menace to anything they shoot. For a little added umph ally in the Baron for Stealth and Hit and Run.

Well it was built for a 1500 point tourny, and the unit was designed to be a swiss army knife. The second farseer is NOT for redundancy, and runes of witnessing means I have little to no chance of failing to cast what I need.

The second farseer is there to let me deal with multiple threats, be they CC, Range, horde, or elite. And a rerollable 3+ save is useless against weapons that will threaten my wraithguard, namely plasma, melta, thunderhammers and the like. Hence the second farseer. If I do get bogged down in close combat, I have the two wraithlords nearby to wade in for counter charge.

Also, I dont HAVE jetseer models so suggesting I use them is less that useless XD

So what if you play someone who has heavy weapons that ignore cover? Like noise marines?

thakabalpuphorsefishguy wrote:
Well it was built for a 1500 point tourny, and the unit was designed to be a swiss army knife. The second farseer is NOT for redundancy, and runes of witnessing means I have little to no chance of failing to cast what I need.

And here's the fatal problem with your plan. At 1500 points your death star is almost your entire army, and it can still only deal with one target a turn. End result: I throw three 75-point squads of guardsmen at it over the few turns it spends in assault range, wipe out the rest of your army with the other 1200+ points of mine, and easily win the game on objectives. End result: your death star utterly annihilates the speed bump units, but is unable to do anything that a much cheaper unit couldn't do just as easily.

(Of course this is the problem with death stars in general, it's way too easy to feed them expendable units and then ignore them.)

Peregrin, yours is the only style of list I truly fear tbh. BUT, with psychic powers enhancing my shooting i.e making units lose fearless, take lots of extra wounds etc, I feel rather confident that I could deal with it utilizing careful target priority, suppression, positioning and other such tactics (But I still fear the swarm XD) Such is the fact of every list. Its always going to have a weakness. However, I feel I can overcome that weakness and play to my strengths.


If I played against a noise marine heavy list, I would simply roll everything on the divination table. I can bank on getting a 4++ from it rather reliably.

thakabalpuphorsefishguy wrote:
Peregrin, yours is the only style of list I truly fear tbh. BUT, with psychic powers enhancing my shooting i.e making units lose fearless, take lots of extra wounds etc, I feel rather confident that I could deal with it utilizing careful target priority, suppression, positioning and other such tactics (But I still fear the swarm XD)

Ok, so you enhance shooting, inflict lots of extra wounds, etc. Great, now you just overkilled my 75 point 10-man squad by an even bigger margin.

And if you mean you're going to apply those things to the non-deathstar part of your army, it's just not going to be good enough. No amount of clever tactics can change the fact that you're outnumbered 2:1 (or worse), the MSU list can just focus overwhelming firepower on your supporting units and wipe them from the table. Giving your Rangers re-rolls to hit is just going to make them take a couple more models down with them when they get slaughtered.

Such is the fact of every list. Its always going to have a weakness. However, I feel I can overcome that weakness and play to my strengths.

But the important question is what exactly you're getting out of adding this weakness to your list? A death star that takes up more than half your army's points is going to be massive overkill against anything you're ever going to encounter at that point level. In every scenario you can imagine you'll be better of bringing, if not a MSU list, at least a list with 2-3 smaller "death star" units that each get the job done just as well as your single monster unit.

thakabalpuphorsefishguy wrote:
Well it was built for a 1500 point tourny, and the unit was designed to be a swiss army knife. The second farseer is NOT for redundancy, and runes of witnessing means I have little to no chance of failing to cast what I need.

The second farseer is there to let me deal with multiple threats, be they CC, Range, horde, or elite. And a rerollable 3+ save is useless against weapons that will threaten my wraithguard, namely plasma, melta, thunderhammers and the like. Hence the second farseer. If I do get bogged down in close combat, I have the two wraithlords nearby to wade in for counter charge.

Also, I dont HAVE jetseer models so suggesting I use them is less that useless XD

I never said the second Farseer was for redundancy, I said he was redundant. There's a huge difference. You are taking him and then buying all the powers just the roll up some more powers that the unit doesn't need in most situations. That's points inefficiently spent. Especially since he is still ML1, so for all his 5 powers, he can only cast one a turn.

Where you are getting the idea that having a second Farseer protects you from Thunder Hammers I don't know; that makes no sense.

And as for Jetseers; I never said anything about them.

The general rule of thumb when it comes to the tactics forum is that if a member feels the need to open a brand new thread for a single combo with a title telling the world how awesome the combo is, it generally isn't that good.

If you have ever faced a tricked out wraith list then you would know the strengths of the list.
Yes, you can bog it down with cheap units, yes multiple other deathstars can do damage, yes its expensive.
But you know what? I have played a similar list like this for about a dozen games and I don't have people "feeding" my wraith unit anything. You know why? Because my other units in my army keep it from getting "speed bumped"
So far my wraith list has about a 80% win record, the rest are near losses or draws. So saying that I'll just do this or I'll do that is funny, because I just don't see it happening lols.

The real question is then what amys are you playing against?I can see it being goodagainst marines, Tau and a few others. I can't see how it would stand up to Nids. Between SitW, tons of psykers, being outnumbered 10 to 1, toxin sacs on almost everything, and things like Deathleaper I just don't see how it would work.
Just wondering if you have tried it against Nids and what they had?

Have you played against cron wraithwing? I know offhand that would wreck this. Also demons or the new CSM dragons will give it fits. Poor wraithguard need about a 10 pt decrease, 6" range increase, or FNP.

 BlueDagger wrote:
Have you played against cron wraithwing? I know offhand that would wreck this. Also demons or the new CSM dragons will give it fits. Poor wraithguard need about a 10 pt decrease, 6" range increase, or FNP.

Hey blue... WraithLords (with swords) vs the cron wraithwing seems to work.

Faced off 3 times already (2 in 5th, 1 in 6th).

I'd REALLY cringe on the rending rolls... but, evidently my lords scares the dice even more...

EDIT: Demons and that dragon would wreck them tho.

Nologik wrote:
You know why? Because my other units in my army keep it from getting "speed bumped"

HOW do they prevent it? You're talking about a unit that needs to assault (or at least get within close range to shoot) to be effective. The only way to keep it from getting speed bumped is to have the rest of your list kill the speed bump first and that just isn't going to happen when you've spent over half your points on a single unit.

And of course if you're fighting a MSU opponent then every unit is a speed bump and even if the death star kills a unit every turn it still won't accomplish enough to justify its price.

So far my wraith list has about a 80% win record, the rest are near losses or draws.

At what point level, and against what opposing lists?

 whembly wrote:

 BlueDagger wrote:
Have you played against cron wraithwing? I know offhand that would wreck this. Also demons or the new CSM dragons will give it fits. Poor wraithguard need about a 10 pt decrease, 6" range increase, or FNP.

Hey blue... WraithLords (with swords) vs the cron wraithwing seems to work.

Faced off 3 times already (2 in 5th, 1 in 6th).

I'd REALLY cringe on the rending rolls... but, evidently my lords scares the dice even more...

EDIT: Demons and that dragon would wreck them tho.

You opponents must have some SERIOUSLY terrible rolls. Not getting 3 6s on the piles of attacks wraith can put out is rather insane. In return your attacks may kill 1, maybe 2?

 BlueDagger wrote:

 whembly wrote:

 BlueDagger wrote:
Have you played against cron wraithwing? I know offhand that would wreck this. Also demons or the new CSM dragons will give it fits. Poor wraithguard need about a 10 pt decrease, 6" range increase, or FNP.

Hey blue... WraithLords (with swords) vs the cron wraithwing seems to work.

Faced off 3 times already (2 in 5th, 1 in 6th).

I'd REALLY cringe on the rending rolls... but, evidently my lords scares the dice even more...

EDIT: Demons and that dragon would wreck them tho.

You opponents must have some SERIOUSLY terrible rolls. Not getting 3 6s on the piles of attacks wraith can put out is rather insane. In return your attacks may kill 1, maybe 2?

Yup... its gotta be epic. When I first saw what's going to happen, I was like...

Then failing to roll sixes? Simply epic. Won't be expecting that to happen anytime soon.

But the problem is, if i drop the unit down to a smaller size, it loses what offensive output it has. As well as its vital troop status.

And to it, i will not save enough points to really add much of value anyway.

Ive seen the unit perform against swarm assault marines like a dream. I know it can handle small elite armies, and i know its suprisingly versitile givin the secondary farseer.

All that, and there is not a single unit in codex eldar that can do even half of what that unit of wraithguard can do. Namely, take a beating while advancing implacably into my opponents grill. No other unit has fearless, toughness 6 and ap2 shooting goodness that can bring ID. I grant you its expensive, and very much of an all eggs in one basket, but its an iron clad, quantom sheilded basket

So in an objective game ( which is 5/6 games) what do you do? Also, why cant your enemy just avoid your unit that is moving 6" a turn? Yea those wraithguard are troops but they have to 1. get to the objective and 2. they can only hold a single objective.

So they might be a 700+ point wrecking ball... But while that 700+ points is moving 6" a turn towards me, my 1500 points of shooting will be killing any other troop you have. And then kill everything else that isnt part of the deathstar.

Now saying all of this... I run a wraithguard deathstar. Mine is 10 guard, spiritseer, eldrad, and baron. They dont like dedicated CC termies with fists or hammers But can usually get a round of shooting off beforehand. I also run a 10 man harlequin unit right next to it benefiting from eldrad's fortune as well. This helps keep unwanted things away.

But it still all suffers from the things listed above.


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thakabalpuphorsefishguy wrote:
But the problem is, if i drop the unit down to a smaller size, it loses what offensive output it has. As well as its vital troop status.

And to it, i will not save enough points to really add much of value anyway.

Ive seen the unit perform against swarm assault marines like a dream. I know it can handle small elite armies, and i know its suprisingly versitile givin the secondary farseer.

All that, and there is not a single unit in codex eldar that can do even half of what that unit of wraithguard can do. Namely, take a beating while advancing implacably into my opponents grill. No other unit has fearless, toughness 6 and ap2 shooting goodness that can bring ID. I grant you its expensive, and very much of an all eggs in one basket, but its an iron clad, quantom sheilded basket

Point being, the eldar codex isnt meant to BASH peoples face in. If you want to do that then you are playing the wrong army. Eldar are meant to use finesse. And that bit about not having anyhting in the codex that are as good bang for your buck as wraithgurd? Thats a lie. Enter stage: war walkers with scatter lasers. 540 pts = 3X3 war walkers (9 total) all taking scatter lasers. 72 S6 shots is stupid. This is all besides the point thought. I was just trying to show that 500-600 points can be spent just as well else where.

I run my wraiths because I love their fluff and the look. I am slowly building up an all wraith army including the Forgeworld wraithseer to make a fluffy list.

Could you describe how this is a "combo"? I've got a combo too, it's 20 hammernators.

 Peregrine wrote:

Nologik wrote:
You know why? Because my other units in my army keep it from getting "speed bumped"

HOW do they prevent it? You're talking about a unit that needs to assault (or at least get within close range to shoot) to be effective. The only way to keep it from getting speed bumped is to have the rest of your list kill the speed bump first and that just isn't going to happen when you've spent over half your points on a single unit.

And of course if you're fighting a MSU opponent then every unit is a speed bump and even if the death star kills a unit every turn it still won't accomplish enough to justify its price.

So far my wraith list has about a 80% win record, the rest are near losses or draws.

At what point level, and against what opposing lists?

I've actually played quite a few games ranging from 1750-2k. I just haven't had the chance to really play it at 1500 so I don't know the viability of it at that point level. But I would assume that it would do ok.
I have played Nids, and wrecked them. I have played Tau and did the same. I have played Ultra Marines/blood angels/grey knights and did a number on them. Iv'e played against Space Wolves many times and seem to tie them alot or barely win/lose, they have lots lots lots of long range fire power namely Long fangs. I haven't really gotten to play a game against IG or Chaos or Necrons namely because of their isn't many of them around here.
So I do have quite a few wins under my belt with playing wraithzilla. I've got experience with them and so far I haven't played many armies that can kick my butt, its always they barely squeak one out on me.
I hope you get to try it out sometimes. It's its very funny watching peoples expressions when you tell them they are all t6 with AP2 weps lols.

Thanks
Cheers

Nologik wrote:
I've actually played quite a few games ranging from 1750-2k.

My point exactly. In a larger game the death star takes up a smaller percentage of your points so you have the ability to bring better supporting units. At 1500 once you have the death star and a token scoring unit or two you have very few points left to buy anything else. You end up with one-dimensional army that's extremely vulnerable to having your single real unit fed a meatshield every turn until the game ends while the fragile leftovers of your army aren't enough to stop 1000+ points of focused attack.

...I hate to break it to you after all this interesting discussion, but this is technically illegal. Farseers can only have four powers.

Factoring in the fact that the whole thing is horribly slow, short-ranged, can't fight in CC worth a damn, and goes down in a blink if hit by a Vindicator or a battle cannon? It's powerful, but extremely situational, I wouldn't use this unless I was absolutely sure the enemy was going to come to me with mostly infantry.

 ph34r wrote:
Could you describe how this is a "combo"? I've got a combo too, it's 20 hammernators.

Because its the combination of Eldrad throwing out codex eldar powers for rerolling saves and accuracy, a farseer (who has spirit stones so ml2 sorry for not mentioning it earlier) who has divination and or telepathy powers (rolling 5 times for powers with a HIGH probability of getting the powers I need depending on my opponent) and the 10 man unit of toughness 6 guys with wounds on 2+ with ap2 ID on 6s, that combine into a nigh unchargeable ( getting 1 on divination is a 1/6 chance, I have 5 chances to get it XD) unit that is near impossible to kill with shooting.

The combination of eldrad and farseer means that I can adapt which powers I take depending on which opponent and list style im playing against, to best handle that particular game. And dont discount what 10 guided pathfinders can do to a misfortuned opponent. Any roll to hit of six means I get to allocate an ap1 shot to any model in the unit I can see, poof sargeant

All in all, I hear the criticism that speed bump units might be a problem, but I feel that I can effectively deal with them with properly applied force and well executed movement. And objectives games are no problem seeing as how I have 4 troop choices in my army, one of them being among the toughest in the game

thakabalpuphorsefishguy wrote:

Because its the combination of Eldrad throwing out codex eldar powers for rerolling saves and accuracy, a farseer (who has spirit stones so ml2 sorry for not mentioning it earlier) who has divination and or telepathy powers (rolling 5 times for powers with a HIGH probability of getting the powers I need depending on my opponent) and the 10 man unit of toughness 6 guys with wounds on 2+ with ap2 ID on 6s, that combine into a nigh unchargeable ( getting 1 on divination is a 1/6 chance, I have 5 chances to get it XD) unit that is near impossible to kill with shooting.

The combination of eldrad and farseer means that I can adapt which powers I take depending on which opponent and list style im playing against, to best handle that particular game. And dont discount what 10 guided pathfinders can do to a misfortuned opponent. Any roll to hit of six means I get to allocate an ap1 shot to any model in the unit I can see, poof sargeant

All in all, I hear the criticism that speed bump units might be a problem, but I feel that I can effectively deal with them with properly applied force and well executed movement. And objectives games are no problem seeing as how I have 4 troop choices in my army, one of them being among the toughest in the game

See that is at least something to go on to start a good tactical discussion.

Not sure why the unit is nigh unchargable. I understand that you get to fire Overwatch at full BS if you get the right power, but you can only shoot once. The first unit to go in will probably loose @5-10 guys on the charge, but a second unit will make it in to combat without issue. It is harder to do, but as a Nid player I have to do this anyway (same tactic must be used when charging Burner Boys).

You are also counting on your 2 psykers pretty hard. That is fine for the buffs unless you are facing Nids or SW (oh how I hate Rune Priests). However you are running a risk with not getting Witchfire and Maladictionsoff as some units will have a 5+ DtW save, so it won't work about 1/3rd of the time.

Pathfinders are nice in 6th. 5 of them is a little small but they can pin and you can allocate wounds on 6's. Not quite "poof Sgt" becasue of LOS!, but bye bye melta guy. They are also vulnerable to OM so you might want to keep that in mind. I assume that they are just going to objective camp as that is what they do best.

But as a player that has T6 MC's in units with psykers I can see some flaws. Poison attacks suck and some armies like DE and Nids have tons of them. Force weapons (and Boneswords) are also going to be problematic as they can ID. Things that ignore cover are also a problem (Hive Guard and Thunderfire cannons for example).
I don't think that tarpitting is going to be an option that most armies are going to have becasue you can do a real amount of Overwatch damage. That means they would need lots of tough bodies (orks), huge blocks of troops (IG Blob), or an nearly infinite supply of fodder (NIds).

Tacticly it is interesting. I can see how it could work.

 AnomanderRake wrote:
...I hate to break it to you after all this interesting discussion, but this is technically illegal. Farseers can only have four powers.

Factoring in the fact that the whole thing is horribly slow, short-ranged, can't fight in CC worth a damn, and goes down in a blink if hit by a Vindicator or a battle cannon? It's powerful, but extremely situational, I wouldn't use this unless I was absolutely sure the enemy was going to come to me with mostly infantry.

By jove i cant believe i overlooked that! I guess that frees up 30 points. But as to cant fight in cc worth a damn, it will steam roll anything that isnt a swarm of 30 orks or gaunts, it might take it a bit to do it, but its quite gross with eldrad fortuning, and the other farseer casting some hefty powers from divination or telepathy. Ws 1 gene stealers? No more fearless ork mob, have fun being pinned! The options are limitles, and even a vindicator is going to fair poorly when two wraith lords are brightlancing it every turn.

thakabalpuphorsefishguy wrote:

 ph34r wrote:
Could you describe how this is a "combo"? I've got a combo too, it's 20 hammernators.

And dont discount what 10 guided pathfinders can do to a misfortuned opponent. Any roll to hit of six means I get to allocate an ap1 shot to any model in the unit I can see, poof sergeant

Precision shots are better used on the special weapon guys at range. No melta or plasma gun means one less Armor denying save.


Oh and fixed the word Sergeant for you, Staff Sergeant

Aside from freeing up 30 points it also some what changes the results you've had in your games as your slightly less (granted not by much) likely to get the powers you want...

A Vindicator may perhaps hit as many as a dozen models in the unit (probably less as you'd try to space out).. Assuming 5+ cover and Fortune then it'd cause 4 casualties, which is nasty.

But if you could run a good fairy/evil faerie ally list then not only would you get in my opinion better troops (5 man warriors in night-shielded venoms at 120 per unit, 135 with a blaster thrown in are very mobile and very good at killing infantry), but you could add Sathonyx to the wraiths to give them Stealth (reducing vindcator casualties in the above example to 2-3) and also Hit and Run, which helps a lot with avoiding tarpitting. he also brings a 2+ invun and (although I've seen it argued otherwise), to me it would seem that RAW if he's in an Eldar unit upon which Fortune has been cast, that would be re-rollable 2++ . . .

Adding Sathonyx was mentioned higher up, but while his inclusion is probably hard to do at 1500, I'd say he was well worth it at 1750 and above

Thanks for providing tactical analysis gloomfang. But with mastery level two, and mastery level 3 its gonna be rare that a unit is gonna have a 5+ dtw.

I figure that against paper plane deldar with venom spam, i should be able to handely shoot them down with the units i have. Dont forget that i am never pidgeon holed into running into my opponents guns. I can still determine if i need to make them come to me, while guided fire picks them off. The real threat to this, would be fliers, but can be mitigated by rushing forward to minimize the damage a flier can do before they fly over. And at 1500 its a rare if not nonexistent chance of meeting an army that can provide both a solid gunline, a couple of fliers AND a good tarpit due to needing to be able to TAC. Im not sure why boneswords are especially scary, ID is kinda irrelavant to a unit of 1 wound models. As to the tfire and hive guard, i would still get a rerollable armour save and am toughness 6. So im glad and very appreciative for your contribution, and the chance to plan out tactical options for dealing with these problems :-)

Any unit with a psyker will get 5+ DtW, it doesn't matter whether they're equal or lower. A unit getting 4+ is unlikely though and that's where your mastery levels would have an impact.

thakabalpuphorsefishguy wrote:
Thanks for providing tactical analysis gloomfang. But with mastery level two, and mastery level 3 its gonna be rare that a unit is gonna have a 5+ dtw.

You have the rule wrong.

Just a unit: 6+ DtW
Unit has a psyker in it: 5+
Unit has a psyker with a higher level then the psyker casting the power: 4+

Eldrad casting Misfortune on a unit of Stealers with a Broodlord. The Stealers get a 5+ DtW from the Broodlord even though it is LV3 vs LV1.

EDIT: Ninja'ed

Also it sounds like you have given yourself an extra power and people are not trying to DtW properly. Might be part of how you are wrecking stuff.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

thakabalpuphorsefishguy wrote:
And at 1500 its a rare if not nonexistent chance of meeting an army that can provide both a solid gunline, a couple of fliers AND a good tarpit due to needing to be able to TAC. Im not sure why boneswords are especially scary, ID is kinda irrelavant to a unit of 1 wound models. As to the tfire and hive guard, i would still get a rerollable armour save and am toughness 6. So im glad and very appreciative for your contribution, and the chance to plan out tactical options for dealing with these problems :-)

The Wraithlords, Farseer and Eldrad do not have EW. The Wraithlords in particular do not have an Invuln either, so every wound can kill them and Sv3+ means they don't get saves against most Force or boneswords. Your army falls apart if Eldrad and/or the Farseer dies (and they would be target #1 for me anyway). You have the RoW for some protection against Force Weapons, but dual swords means that one wound that makes it past your invuln will probably kill them.

As for the Hiveguard/T'fire, it sounded like you were counting on the coversave. I guess you only meant that for things that were AP3.

And I am trying to figure out how I would fight this if I see it on the table. Honestly I would take my Swarmlord deathstar into the heart of it just to see what happens.

Need to check the Eldat FAQ to see how EW and wraithconnons work now.

I just am confused at how you keep patting yourself in the back over this "combo" of yours. What other 3 troop choices do you have in this list? They can't be anything substantial when this units alone houses 800 or more points of your army. I just can't see how you would win any game that has objectives when someone could easily kill off your other 3 troop choices.

When it comes down to it, 800 pts of your army (over half) is in one unit that can move 6" and shoot only 12". If I ran into that, I'd ignore them.

If I ran into that, I'd ignore them

In fairness, that'd be pretty hard to do in either Relic or Emperor's Will.

Im just confused why you seem so confident. 18 inch range is suprisingly sufficient razgriz, especially when the unit can be so dang resilient. And its quite simple to position that unit so that you cant "ignore it." And its the specific composition of my army list that makes every unit a thorn in your backside. The only deathstar you can afford to ignore is a cc only slow moving one. If its got range, its a threat

Thanks for the correction on dtw guys, but luckily, debuffing most units isnt a large problem and the ones i do need to actively debuff, i.e. maledictions, are highly unlikely to be accompanied by a psyker.

I think if the swarm lord made it into combat unscathed, id be in trouble for sure, but luckily, hes not a flier, and i have snipers. Nothing is ever a sure thing but i feel i could handle it, if not he would sure handle me
* where did the swarm lord touch you?*
*points to court molestation doll*
*Dear god is there no decency?!!*

thakabalpuphorsefishguy wrote:
Thanks for the correction on dtw guys, but luckily, debuffing most units isnt a large problem and the ones i do need to actively debuff, i.e. maledictions, are highly unlikely to be accompanied by a psyker.

I think if the swarm lord made it into combat unscathed, id be in trouble for sure, but luckily, hes not a flier, and i have snipers. Nothing is ever a sure thing but i feel i could handle it, if not he would sure handle me
* where did the swarm lord touch you?*
*points to court molestation doll*
*Dear god is there no decency?!!*

Nids. We have more psykers per square inch than any other army =)
Really. My 1500pt list has 6 of them with 15 powers between them.

And there is no way in heck I would take SL (and I have played almost every game in 6th with him) into that unit. Lack of EW makes taking him into wraithguard a dicy prospect at best. The real way I'd deal with it would be my unit of 15 gargoyles screening for my unit of 4 Shrikes with Dual Bone, ScyTal and TS. I'd probably keep Catalyst on my Tervigon and cast FNP on the shrikes and use my BLords/SL to try and get OM onto the unit as that would get rid of the ID problem for at least the charge.
Deathleaper would eat one unit of pathfinders. One of my Stealer units would eat the other. Take SL with Prime w/LW/BS and 1 TG w/LW into the Wraithlords.
Tervigon and termigaunts go and sit on objectives and deal with the Guardians. Probably with help from my other stealer unit.

All theory hammer at this point. I'd have to crunch numbers to see what would happen.

Why do you keep saying "the unit" when it's just a unit of Wraithguard with attached Eldrad and Farseer, and two separate Wraithlords? This all cannot attach....

Emp. wrote:
Why do you keep saying "the unit" when it's just a unit of Wraithguard with attached Eldrad and Farseer, and two separate Wraithlords? This all cannot attach....

I assumed that he ment that it was going to move as a unit so that the Wraithlords would need to be within 6" of the Farseer/Eldrad.

Emp. wrote:
Why do you keep saying "the unit" when it's just a unit of Wraithguard with attached Eldrad and Farseer, and two separate Wraithlords? This all cannot attach....

When i say unit, i am referring to eldrad the wraithguard, secondsry farseer and the mandatory spiritseer. The wraithlords are ancillary to "the unit" not a literal part of it.

@gloomfang That being said, the wraithlords are able to safely range 12" away from the "unit." And gloom, how much of that could you fit in 1500 points? That was a unit of genestealers (10 atleast i would imagine) a unit of 15 goyels, a unit of shrikes w lw, bs, deathleaper, tervigon with some gaunts, swarmlord a trygon prime and others!? That is a bit scary (read fething terrifying). Quick question tho, can a blord use Objuration mech.? He has bs 0 doesnt he? Doesnt that disallow that?

thakabalpuphorsefishguy wrote:
at 1500 its a rare if not nonexistent chance of meeting an army that can provide both a solid gunline, a couple of fliers AND a good tarpit due to needing to be able to TAC.

You've clearly never played against guard or 'crons. Both of them are able to bring a myriad of fliers, tar pit you with cheap units and set up a decent gunline all in 1500 points.

thakabalpuphorsefishguy wrote:
@gloomfang That being said, the wraithlords are able to safely range 12" away from the "unit." And gloom, how much of that could you fit in 1500 points? That was a unit of genestealers (10 atleast i would imagine) a unit of 15 goyels, a unit of shrikes w lw, bs, deathleaper, tervigon with some gaunts, swarmlord a trygon prime and others!? That is a bit scary (read fething terrifying). Quick question tho, can a blord use Objuration mech.? He has bs 0 doesnt he? Doesnt that disallow that?

Any psyker can use OM as it is a Maldiction and not a PSA or Witchfire.
And it was dual swords on the Shirkes, not LW/BS.

Here is the 1500pt list off the top of my head.

Off the top of my head the list is

HQ:
Swarmlord with 2TG/LW
Tyranid Prime with Scytal/Bone/Lash

Elites:
Deathleaper
2x Zoans

Troops:
Tervigon :Cat and Onslaught.
10 Temrigaunts
5x Genesteals +1 Broodlord with TS
5x Genesteals +1 Broodlord with TS

FA:
15 Garygoyles
4 Shrikes: TS/dual sword

Didn't mention my Zoans becasue with RoW they are unreliable.

Wow, that beast! Not to demean your list i was, however, expecting worse haha. Ya, it would have to be well orchastrated but i think i could handle that, from a distance, carefully, with thick adamantium gloves....

thakabalpuphorsefishguy wrote:
Wow, that beast! Not to demean your list i was, however, expecting worse haha. Ya, it would have to be well orchastrated but i think i could handle that, from a distance, carefully, with thick adamantium gloves....

Still tweaking it for 6th. I think I have to dump the Swarmlord at 1500pts as he costs to much. If I do that then I might as well rewite the entire list.

My list is a pretty vanilla list as far as Nids go. There are much worse ones out there. I just think that the wraithstar concept has a few to many weaknesses when it comes to Nids.

Should really work well against GK though.

Im just curious why someone is so surprised that a 700ish point unit, is awesome at beating normal sized units? Its kind of a no brainer. I can make a huge 30 boy blob, led by Mad Dok all with cyborks and all with FNP and all Ard boyz. So they would be 4+/5++ and have FNP. That unit also smashes normal units pretty good, but its 2-3 times the cost of your average unit.

The point of the matter is that I am giving my Wraithguard either a 4++ invul save rerollable or im giving them a 2+ rerollable cover save.
It's not supposed to destroy your whole army, but if you don't deal with it, it will destroy it.
I've haven't faced many armies that can even deal with this unit.

Essentually I have my deathstar move up take fire, move up take fire, then kill what ever they shoot at. All the while my "squishy" stuff takes out easy targets.
You have to make a decision, do you smash into my wall or do you go around it?... The problem is, if you try to avoid it, my supporting units will eat you. Plain and simple.
If you crash into it, then you will lose many more points than my whole deathstar is worth.

You confuse your opponent with the choices, because it isn't an easy choice.

Pathfinders are my favorite other scoring unit, I like to take 2 squads of 6. And I also take 1 or 2 wave serpants with dire avengers in them. So I have 3 really resilient troop choices and 2 in transports. This is how I normally run my troops for my Wraith list.

KingCracker, we are just saying that this deathstar is really good for the amount of firepower you get and how resilient it is.

What if you go second? And no powers go off? And someone alpha strikes you hard?

In your plan, you move up and take fire..... thats only if they decide to fire at your deathstar. If shooting it will get me no where.... Im not going to shoot at it. I will instead shoot your LD8 pathfinders and make them run off their objective. Your deathstar, if I am attempting to keep my distance, will at best reach me in turn three or at worst never.

I am saying this because I run a wraithwall myself. And I know how it works and how to stay away from it. on a 6' X 4' board.... 12" range is horrible. Over half your army only becomes good when within 12".

This being said, the 4+ invuln is really awesome for wraithguard that get hit with powerfists and hammers. As those usually smear them to pieces.

For Something more fluffy and just as good in my opinion, I would take the forgeworld wraithseer as my second HQ, giving me access to a 36" large blast D-cannon. He can then give a 4+ feel no pain the the wraithguard.

My pathfinders are usually fine, people try to kill them. But when I tell them I have a 2+ Cover save, they are usually ignored.
However I had one time where someone rolled up and flamed them and killed 4 of the 5. that was a bad game lols. Never faced the army b4 and just being a newb.

I am not discouting the wraithwalls disadvantages, but there is ways to mitigate them.
I only have started playing the wraithwall in 6th. and so far I love it. It's a deathstar that has only been totally killed twice in almost 20 games. and has scored more times than i can remember, and has killed HQ's and other deathstars alike.
I find in 6th, or at least the way I play them, they work really well, and my record proves my point.
I have a local tourney in 2 weeks that I am getting ready for, and I will post my results. I'll let everyone know how it goes. I will even probably do a battle report for the tourney.
IMHO Wraithwall is a viable option in 6th for fun and for fluff.

thakabalpuphorsefishguy wrote:
Thanks for providing tactical analysis gloomfang. But with mastery level two, and mastery level 3 its gonna be rare that a unit is gonna have a 5+ dtw.

I figure that against paper plane deldar with venom spam, i should be able to handely shoot them down with the units i have. Dont forget that i am never pidgeon holed into running into my opponents guns. I can still determine if i need to make them come to me, while guided fire picks them off. The real threat to this, would be fliers, but can be mitigated by rushing forward to minimize the damage a flier can do before they fly over. And at 1500 its a rare if not nonexistent chance of meeting an army that can provide both a solid gunline, a couple of fliers AND a good tarpit due to needing to be able to TAC. :-)

if you spend 750 pts on a death star that has a 12(6" night shield) range then you are going to get outshot by DE. 1500 points of Venoms, Ravagers, and Raiders in almost any combination will outshoot anything CWE can field for 750. Not just outshoot but cripple and destroy in a few turns with virtually no losses. After that your cover save might be impressive but it wont save you from a combine assault, especially if you can only down one vehicle a turn.

So DE can out shoot CWE? lol... They may have cheap vehicles but CWE can go toe to toe with DE. CWE can crank out about the same number of shot a DE can. BUT, BUT, mine are str 6 and can hurt vehicles yours are poison which cannot. It all balances, but to say DE is better shooting is funny, cause its not true lols.

Nologik wrote:
So DE can out shoot CWE? lol... They may have cheap vehicles but CWE can go toe to toe with DE. CWE can crank out about the same number of shot a DE can. BUT, BUT, mine are str 6 and can hurt vehicles yours are poison which cannot. It all balances, but to say DE is better shooting is funny, cause its not true lols.

when you spend 50% of your points on a deathstar that is out of range. Yes DE can outshoot anyone that it has 2:1 odds on.

easily

 Gloomfang wrote:

thakabalpuphorsefishguy wrote:
Wow, that beast! Not to demean your list i was, however, expecting worse haha. Ya, it would have to be well orchastrated but i think i could handle that, from a distance, carefully, with thick adamantium gloves....

Still tweaking it for 6th. I think I have to dump the Swarmlord at 1500pts as he costs to much. If I do that then I might as well rewite the entire list.

My list is a pretty vanilla list as far as Nids go. There are much worse ones out there. I just think that the wraithstar concept has a few to many weaknesses when it comes to Nids.

Should really work well against GK though.

I would not like to see *worse* than this tbh, but I would take what I got : / (read butt whoopin)


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Exergy wrote:

Nologik wrote:
So DE can out shoot CWE? lol... They may have cheap vehicles but CWE can go toe to toe with DE. CWE can crank out about the same number of shot a DE can. BUT, BUT, mine are str 6 and can hurt vehicles yours are poison which cannot. It all balances, but to say DE is better shooting is funny, cause its not true lols.

when you spend 50% of your points on a deathstar that is out of range. Yes DE can outshoot anyone that it has 2:1 odds on.

easily

I think khorn berserkers can outshoot anyone they outnumber 2:1 XD


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Exergy wrote:

thakabalpuphorsefishguy wrote:
Thanks for providing tactical analysis gloomfang. But with mastery level two, and mastery level 3 its gonna be rare that a unit is gonna have a 5+ dtw.

I figure that against paper plane deldar with venom spam, i should be able to handely shoot them down with the units i have. Dont forget that i am never pidgeon holed into running into my opponents guns. I can still determine if i need to make them come to me, while guided fire picks them off. The real threat to this, would be fliers, but can be mitigated by rushing forward to minimize the damage a flier can do before they fly over. And at 1500 its a rare if not nonexistent chance of meeting an army that can provide both a solid gunline, a couple of fliers AND a good tarpit due to needing to be able to TAC. :-)

if you spend 750 pts on a death star that has a 12(6" night shield) range then you are going to get outshot by DE. 1500 points of Venoms, Ravagers, and Raiders in almost any combination will outshoot anything CWE can field for 750. Not just outshoot but cripple and destroy in a few turns with virtually no losses. After that your cover save might be impressive but it wont save you from a combine assault, especially if you can only down one vehicle a turn.

mmmm I highly doubt you could destroy it in a few turns no problem because the rest of my force is made of up long range suppression that would be getting guided. I would play differently and deploy differently against my dark kin. And then your paper planes will have to deal with 3 missile launchers, 2 bright lances, and 10 pathfinder rifles (not ZOMGOSHWTFBBQSAUCW!!! but good)

thakabalpuphorsefishguy wrote:
mmmm I highly doubt you could destroy it in a few turns no problem because the rest of my force is made of up long range suppression that would be getting guided. I would play differently and deploy differently against my dark kin. And then your paper planes will have to deal with 3 missile launchers, 2 bright lances, and 10 pathfinder rifles (not ZOMGOSHWTFBBQSAUCW!!! but good)

That's it?

Having played against guard gunlines, blood angel razorspam and grey knights psyback spam I can say with confidence that is probably the least threatening list of heavy weapons I have ever seen.

 Lokas wrote:

thakabalpuphorsefishguy wrote:
mmmm I highly doubt you could destroy it in a few turns no problem because the rest of my force is made of up long range suppression that would be getting guided. I would play differently and deploy differently against my dark kin. And then your paper planes will have to deal with 3 missile launchers, 2 bright lances, and 10 pathfinder rifles (not ZOMGOSHWTFBBQSAUCW!!! but good)

That's it?

Having played against guard gunlines, blood angel razorspam and grey knights psyback spam I can say with confidence that is probably the least threatening list of heavy weapons I have ever seen.

I didnt say it was the most devistating list dark eldar will ever see now did i? My implication was that i have the tools necessary to fend off a dark eldsr opponent. And its not going to be a walk in the park for them, although not a trudge through a death swamp filled with shattered glass and rusty razorblades either.

Three missile launchers and two bright lances are not enough tools to deal with a good Dark Eldar list by a longshot.

I won't even mention the pathfinder rifles, because you're better off trying to tip over a land raider with a wet fart than use those against vehicles of any kind.

This idea is severely flawed in that it puts all of its eggs into one very expensive, very short ranged, very slow basket and everything has to stand within 6" of that basket to make sure it stays alive. You're either going to be sitting around with your wraithguard going to waste in the backfield, trying to keep your scoring troops alive from an onslaught of splinter cannon shots or you're gonna be moving them up the board, at which point a smart Dark Eldar player will just wait till you're about halfway up the field, turbo-boost and flat-out into your deployment zone and say 'sup to your scoring troops.

 Lokas wrote:
Three missile launchers and two bright lances are not enough tools to deal with a good Dark Eldar list by a longshot.

I won't even mention the pathfinder rifles, because you're better off trying to tip over a land raider with a wet fart than use those against vehicles of any kind.

This idea is severely flawed in that it puts all of its eggs into one very expensive, very short ranged, very slow basket and everything has to stand within 6" of that basket to make sure it stays alive. You're either going to be sitting around with your wraithguard going to waste in the backfield, trying to keep your scoring troops alive from an onslaught of splinter cannon shots or you're gonna be moving them up the board, at which point a smart Dark Eldar player will just wait till you're about halfway up the field, turbo-boost and flat-out into your deployment zone and say 'sup to your scoring troops.

This is the point I was trying to prove. The unit can be ignored by fast armies.

Or a horde can two two medium sized units at it, and it will stay locked for most of the game.

This unit without the Wraith Lords added in is over 700pts, and closer to 800. Half of your army in one unit that has an effective range of 18" is not scary. It is not a threat unless the other player has no idea what it is doing.

I can out maneuver it, while focusing my fire on your other units. They are too few to be a real concern.

On a slightly different Eldar combo, has there been a thread about having a phoenix lord + fortune seer + something that always gets cover/invul?

For example

Fuegan + foot seer + harlequins

or

Baharroth + bike seer + GJB

The idea being that you put the phoenix lord up front and cast fortune, then the PL eats all the AP3 and less shots with his rerollable 2+ save. Anything AP2 or better, he passes it off to the mook behind him with a 2+ LoS (or eats the wound if he fails the LoS).

The Baharroth unit isn't as mobile as a pure jetbike unit because B can't turbo, although he does get a fleet reroll. But it can kill the crap out of vehicle targets with two witchblades (assuming you add a warlock) and work sort of like a discount bike council.

I saw something on Stelek's blog about Maugan Ra + fortune/doom seer + 5 Dark Reapers. As long as they stand in cover with Ra at the front and the seer in the back, they can take a crapload of punishment and wipe out a unit every turn.

 BlueDagger wrote:

 whembly wrote:

 BlueDagger wrote:
Have you played against cron wraithwing? I know offhand that would wreck this. Also demons or the new CSM dragons will give it fits. Poor wraithguard need about a 10 pt decrease, 6" range increase, or FNP.

Hey blue... WraithLords (with swords) vs the cron wraithwing seems to work.

Faced off 3 times already (2 in 5th, 1 in 6th).

I'd REALLY cringe on the rending rolls... but, evidently my lords scares the dice even more...

EDIT: Demons and that dragon would wreck them tho.

You opponents must have some SERIOUSLY terrible rolls. Not getting 3 6s on the piles of attacks wraith can put out is rather insane. In return your attacks may kill 1, maybe 2?

6 wraiths= 24 attacks, 12 hits, 2 rends ie. Wraithlord survives and costs at least 100 points less. A pair of wraithlords can easily hold wraiths at bay. Personally I feel eldar have the best tools to deal with most necron units very efficiently.

 Red Corsair wrote:

 BlueDagger wrote:

 whembly wrote:

 BlueDagger wrote:
Have you played against cron wraithwing? I know offhand that would wreck this. Also demons or the new CSM dragons will give it fits. Poor wraithguard need about a 10 pt decrease, 6" range increase, or FNP.

Hey blue... WraithLords (with swords) vs the cron wraithwing seems to work.

Faced off 3 times already (2 in 5th, 1 in 6th).

I'd REALLY cringe on the rending rolls... but, evidently my lords scares the dice even more...

EDIT: Demons and that dragon would wreck them tho.

You opponents must have some SERIOUSLY terrible rolls. Not getting 3 6s on the piles of attacks wraith can put out is rather insane. In return your attacks may kill 1, maybe 2?

6 wraiths= 24 attacks, 12 hits, 2 rends ie. Wraithlord survives and costs at least 100 points less. A pair of wraithlords can easily hold wraiths at bay. Personally I feel eldar have the best tools to deal with most necron units very efficiently.

Lol um, so if things happen perfectly statistical or less the wraiths inflict 2 unsavable wounds... And then next turn kill it, consolidate, and it's now their turn and run off to charge something else... Lol.

Best tools? We have no reliable AA outside of the quadgun with exarch/fuegan. We have fire dragons for AT but with the nerf to serpents it's rough getting there. Our only real counter to wraiths is double farseers for guide/doom/force reroll saves.

Wraith counter.....

3 war walkers with scatter lasers + guide.

Oh wait, thats the counter for almost everything.

But it works.

thakabalpuphorsefishguy wrote:
Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Exergy wrote:

Nologik wrote:
So DE can out shoot CWE? lol... They may have cheap vehicles but CWE can go toe to toe with DE. CWE can crank out about the same number of shot a DE can. BUT, BUT, mine are str 6 and can hurt vehicles yours are poison which cannot. It all balances, but to say DE is better shooting is funny, cause its not true lols.

when you spend 50% of your points on a deathstar that is out of range. Yes DE can outshoot anyone that it has 2:1 odds on.
easily

I think khorn berserkers can outshoot anyone they outnumber 2:1 XD
Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Exergy wrote:

thakabalpuphorsefishguy wrote:
Thanks for providing tactical analysis gloomfang. But with mastery level two, and mastery level 3 its gonna be rare that a unit is gonna have a 5+ dtw.

I figure that against paper plane deldar with venom spam, i should be able to handely shoot them down with the units i have. Dont forget that i am never pidgeon holed into running into my opponents guns. I can still determine if i need to make them come to me, while guided fire picks them off. The real threat to this, would be fliers, but can be mitigated by rushing forward to minimize the damage a flier can do before they fly over. And at 1500 its a rare if not nonexistent chance of meeting an army that can provide both a solid gunline, a couple of fliers AND a good tarpit due to needing to be able to TAC. :-)

if you spend 750 pts on a death star that has a 12(6" night shield) range then you are going to get outshot by DE. 1500 points of Venoms, Ravagers, and Raiders in almost any combination will outshoot anything CWE can field for 750. Not just outshoot but cripple and destroy in a few turns with virtually no losses. After that your cover save might be impressive but it wont save you from a combine assault, especially if you can only down one vehicle a turn.

mmmm I highly doubt you could destroy it in a few turns no problem because the rest of my force is made of up long range suppression that would be getting guided. I would play differently and deploy differently against my dark kin. And then your paper planes will have to deal with 3 missile launchers, 2 bright lances, and 10 pathfinder rifles (not ZOMGOSHWTFBBQSAUCW!!! but good)

at 1500 points a good DE army is going to be packing 10-12 dark lances, 5-10 blasters, and 6-8 splinter cannons.
anything without fortune is ripe for splinter fire and even with cover(difficult for a wraithlord) dark lances are going to shred them. That kind of fire can and will wipe units off the board. Once it comes down to the wraithguard and what is left of the DE, the DE can still kite away and a 5+ cover that is rerollable isnt going to stop massed Darklight. You could put the wounds on eldrad, FS or the warlock, but those must be the closest model and one Str8 gets through and eldrad is dead.

3 missile launchers and 2 bright lances is going to average 2 results a turn against DE vehicles, statistically unlikely to down even one a turn.

But the big monkey in the room is, how do you deal with my deathstar?? Or my deepstriking and outflanking units. Yes you have mobility, yes you have firepower. What you going to do when the rest of my army arrives on turn 2 to knock 5 of your plane out of the air? It's just the way it is.
We can do this I counter your X with my Y.. But when it comes down to it, You have to deal with my wraithguard. And not many armies that I have faced can do it successfully.

Nologik wrote:
But the big monkey in the room is, how do you deal with my deathstar??

Ignore it. It can only kill one unit per turn, so it's never going to kill enough to win the game. If you're lucky I might dignify it by putting a meatshield unit in its path so you at least get to kill something.

This is the fundamental problem you keep ignoring. When you spend half your points on a single unit all your opponent has to do is just ignore whatever your death star is doing. It's bad enough with a "balanced" opponent, but a MSU opponent just laughs at death stars because there aren't any target units on the table that can justify your death star's existence.

What you going to do when the rest of my army arrives on turn 2 to knock 5 of your plane out of the air? It's just the way it is.

Did you miss the part where your claimed heavy weapon count is laughable and is going to be lucky to kill any vehicles before it gets wiped out? You have a total of five STR 8 shots, and some snipers that can barely even attempt to roll dice. Good luck stopping mech spam with that.

(And that's assuming by "planes" you mean Raiders/Ravagers, if you're facing actual flyers you're screwed.)

That "deathstar" will go down to a beastmaster squad with 10 razorwings...Shuriken cannons are scarier than wraithcannons to t3 5 wound models. Once they get in assault, rerollable armor saves and t6 won't save you from rending. In fact, why not just get charged by daemonettes, harlequins, Thunderwolves and the like. A bunch of rending attacks will ruin your day. Oh, and works on the wraithlord as well. 2-3 S10 attacks are useless if they come at i4, whereas the 50+ rending attacks from the razorwings come at i5.

The best part? That unit costs maybe 200 points. And you can field 3. 3 Squads that can eliminate 3 of your 700 pt deathstars in 2-3 turns. Did I mention 12" movement and fleet? You know you've got a problem when your opponent's charge range is bigger than your shooting range (24" vs 18"). And that they ignore terrain? Add in the baron with hit&run and 2+ invul save to eat the few overwatch shots that cause instant death.

And that's just for dark eldar.

Raveners, Thunderwolves, Slaanesh stuff and sisters of battle with rending bolters say hi. Hammernators/powerfist terms also extend their regards. Baal predators, Daemon flamers, Tzeentch flamers (new) and LRRs will roast your squad whole.

 Peregrine wrote:

Nologik wrote:
But the big monkey in the room is, how do you deal with my deathstar??

Ignore it. It can only kill one unit per turn, so it's never going to kill enough to win the game. If you're lucky I might dignify it by putting a meatshield unit in its path so you at least get to kill something.

This is the fundamental problem you keep ignoring. When you spend half your points on a single unit all your opponent has to do is just ignore whatever your death star is doing. It's bad enough with a "balanced" opponent, but a MSU opponent just laughs at death stars because there aren't any target units on the table that can justify your death star's existence.

What you going to do when the rest of my army arrives on turn 2 to knock 5 of your plane out of the air? It's just the way it is.

Did you miss the part where your claimed heavy weapon count is laughable and is going to be lucky to kill any vehicles before it gets wiped out? You have a total of five STR 8 shots, and some snipers that can barely even attempt to roll dice. Good luck stopping mech spam with that.

(And that's assuming by "planes" you mean Raiders/Ravagers, if you're facing actual flyers you're screwed.)

Definitely this. Hell, a couple DAKKAjets would mow those units down without breaking a sweat, and without the WAAAGH! Ive been running a semi horde led by a bikerboss w/usual loadout, hitching a ride with 5 deffkoptas w/TL shootas and now Ill be throwing 2 DAKKAjets into the mix. But Id have basically that, 60 boyz and whatever else I need to fill out 1k points. So at 1500, I can add in a BUNCH more to my list. Id be able to stay back and shoot the piss out of his list, and mostly stay away from his deathstar. With 60-80 boyz in that list, Id probably toss 1 or 2 in there just for the sake of them stalling the deathstar, sO I could focus killing the rest of his easy to kill list. And you cant argue "well you cant ignore it!!!" Yes, yes I can. I do the same thing whenever a SM player plops a Landraider on the table. I know that Orks dont have TOO much to take on a LR, so I say screw it, and let those awesome lascannons do spit to my horde of bodies.

Seriously, that would be easy, and my list is definitely not a top tier Ork build. Its good at 1k, and would be real decent at 1500, and your Eldar list wouldnt be very hard to counter with it. But yea, this guy has squat to take down fliers with, and really lucky shots one shouldnt rely on.

Pretty impressive! Are dakkajets forgeworld? Cause if they are, you wouldnt be taking them to the tourny im about to attend with this combo... The one i designed this list for...

Dakka jets are not forgeworld. They are the new ork flyer released alongside with the storm talon gunship.

I prefer 10 harlequins full upgrades w/ Eldrad, Fuegan, Kharandras, and Jane Zar.

Sure it costs like 1500 points..But still!

thakabalpuphorsefishguy wrote:
Pretty impressive! Are dakkajets forgeworld? Cause if they are, you wouldnt be taking them to the tourny im about to attend with this combo... The one i designed this list for...

Erm....nope, definitely a GW approved unit, and 100% legal. I wouldnt of brought it up other wise. If that were the case Id just spam feth some APOC unit

 Peregrine wrote:

Nologik wrote:
But the big monkey in the room is, how do you deal with my deathstar??

Ignore it. It can only kill one unit per turn, so it's never going to kill enough to win the game. If you're lucky I might dignify it by putting a meatshield unit in its path so you at least get to kill something.
Granted you could ignore it, which means I kill 3-4 units of your army with it. No big deal right? Cause you are MSU lol.
This is the fundamental problem you keep ignoring. When you spend half your points on a single unit all your opponent has to do is just ignore whatever your death star is doing. It's bad enough with a "balanced" opponent, but a MSU opponent just laughs at death stars because there aren't any target units on the table that can justify your death star's existence.

Again they can laugh all they want, Because I will just run them over and they will laugh cause they lost to a noob like me. Just saying.

What you going to do when the rest of my army arrives on turn 2 to knock 5 of your plane out of the air? It's just the way it is.

Did you miss the part where your claimed heavy weapon count is laughable and is going to be lucky to kill any vehicles before it gets wiped out? You have a total of five STR 8 shots, and some snipers that can barely even attempt to roll dice. Good luck stopping mech spam with that.
So what you are saying is that because I have a 700 pnt unit I cannot have anything to touch your units? lol.. My list usually kills 2 units first turn and 2 more 2nd turn, so laughable? yes, I think its awesome.
(And that's assuming by "planes" you mean Raiders/Ravagers, if you're facing actual flyers you're screwed.)

I have yet to thoroughly test my build against flyers.I have played against heavy SW and do very well against them, I play vanilla marines and do well against them, I play greyknights and many others and I do well. If you have never went against The wraithwall then you really need to check yourself.. Because it is a heavy threat in this edition, and if you keep telling me that it isn't a viable strategy, then I will let you think that.. and when this list rolls you in your next tourney you are in.... Don't come crying to me, cause you didn't know.

The unit lacks CC killing power, but makes up for it with a deadly overwatch. Handle it the same way one would charge 9 flamers of Tzeentch. Throw 2 units at it knowing only 1 will get blasted with overwatch. The assaulting unit doesn't even need to win to win, they just need to tarpit the unit for 2 rounds of CC until reinforcements can turn the tide of CC.

If you give div powers I can fire at full ballistic skill, which I typically do. I can kill 8 marines on the their charge just by over watch. The key is multi assault, but they aren't slouches in combat tho.

Nologik wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:

Nologik wrote:
But the big monkey in the room is, how do you deal with my deathstar??

Ignore it. It can only kill one unit per turn, so it's never going to kill enough to win the game. If you're lucky I might dignify it by putting a meatshield unit in its path so you at least get to kill something.
Granted you could ignore it, which means I kill 3-4 units of your army with it. No big deal right? Cause you are MSU lol.
This is the fundamental problem you keep ignoring. When you spend half your points on a single unit all your opponent has to do is just ignore whatever your death star is doing. It's bad enough with a "balanced" opponent, but a MSU opponent just laughs at death stars because there aren't any target units on the table that can justify your death star's existence.

Again they can laugh all they want, Because I will just run them over and they will laugh cause they lost to a noob like me. Just saying.

What you going to do when the rest of my army arrives on turn 2 to knock 5 of your plane out of the air? It's just the way it is.

Did you miss the part where your claimed heavy weapon count is laughable and is going to be lucky to kill any vehicles before it gets wiped out? You have a total of five STR 8 shots, and some snipers that can barely even attempt to roll dice. Good luck stopping mech spam with that.
So what you are saying is that because I have a 700 pnt unit I cannot have anything to touch your units? lol.. My list usually kills 2 units first turn and 2 more 2nd turn, so laughable? yes, I think its awesome.
(And that's assuming by "planes" you mean Raiders/Ravagers, if you're facing actual flyers you're screwed.)

I have yet to thoroughly test my build against flyers.I have played against heavy SW and do very well against them, I play vanilla marines and do well against them, I play greyknights and many others and I do well. If you have never went against The wraithwall then you really need to check yourself.. Because it is a heavy threat in this edition, and if you keep telling me that it isn't a viable strategy, then I will let you think that.. and when this list rolls you in your next tourney you are in.... Don't come crying to me, cause you didn't know.

OK, i'll bite. At a minimum, your unit will cost 766 pts. That is over half your list. Also at minimum, Half your list will be doing nothing for the first two turns. I wouldnt even shoot at the unit. All 1500 pts of my army would be shooting at your leftover 700 pts. You would essentially be playing a 700 VS 1500 pt game for at least the first two turn. And thats all it takes to blast away those other scoring units and your wraithlord or 2.

I almost laughed out loud when you stated about you list "rolling" into my tourney and stomping on it. I really hope you do. It seems you dont play smart gamers. Your list may be fun to play but it is definitely not that crazy of a tactic.

Nologik wrote:
Granted you could ignore it, which means I kill 3-4 units of your army with it. No big deal right? Cause you are MSU lol.

You're right, no big deal. That's less than 500 points of my army, compared to 750+ of your army.

Again they can laugh all they want, Because I will just run them over and they will laugh cause they lost to a noob like me. Just saying.

Err, no. Remember the part where you killing 3-4 units with your 750+ point unit is not enough to win the game?

So what you are saying is that because I have a 700 pnt unit I cannot have anything to touch your units? lol.. My list usually kills 2 units first turn and 2 more 2nd turn, so laughable? yes, I think its awesome.

What I'm saying is that the heavy weapons you said you have are not enough to stop any meaningful counter attack. You might get one transport if you focus everything on it, but the others are going to advance on you just fine. Seriously, do the math on your five STR 8 shots and tell me how realistic your plan is.

I have yet to thoroughly test my build against flyers.I have played against heavy SW and do very well against them, I play vanilla marines and do well against them, I play greyknights and many others and I do well. If you have never went against The wraithwall then you really need to check yourself.. Because it is a heavy threat in this edition, and if you keep telling me that it isn't a viable strategy, then I will let you think that.. and when this list rolls you in your next tourney you are in.... Don't come crying to me, cause you didn't know.

That's nice. Are they good players with optimized lists, or are you squishing newbies with fluff lists?

And sure, it's a heavy threat, that's the whole problem. Your one monster unit is massive overkill against the single target it can kill each turn, so you're throwing away points on doing what a much cheaper unit could do just as well.

Dont know If Troll...... Or Serious.....

Or if just never played good players

Nologik wrote:
But the big monkey in the room is, how do you deal with my deathstar?? Or my deepstriking and outflanking units. Yes you have mobility, yes you have firepower. What you going to do when the rest of my army arrives on turn 2 to knock 5 of your plane out of the air? It's just the way it is.
We can do this I counter your X with my Y.. But when it comes down to it, You have to deal with my wraithguard. And not many armies that I have faced can do it successfully.

you deal with the 12" death star by ignoring it and killing the other 750 points of the eldar army. Bringing 1500 points of DE to bear on it, will fold it easily. The 6" night shield penalty is usually just enough to prevent warwalkers from getting the alpha strike if they outflank.

After the warwalkers are dead the wraith guard are not a problem. Sure it might take a few turns, but the wraiths cannot strike back, unless the game ends on turn 4 they are destine to lose.

Yea, you learn real fast, that having a FULL army, attacking HALF of yours, is the fastest way to lose. Dont worry all, when he faces someone that brings a good, balanced list, that knows how to play, he will quickly see the flaws in his uber list.

I was wondering if this thread was still going on while I was playing yesterday.

See, I faced up against one of these oh so feared wraithguard lists. A friend of mine got the hot idea of allying with some CWE and taking 10 wraithguard, Eldrad, and throwing two archons into that unit with shadow fields, blasters, a venom blade and some other crap that I forgot about. Majority T6 with two rerollable 2++'s? Hot diggedy damn.

I didn't even bother shooting at it. It killed exactly zip the entire game.

First turn, I made his three scoring units either vanish or crippled their mobility. The wraithguard advanced. I backed up 6 inches, and laid into his Ravagers and remaining troops (something like a squad and a half of haywyches) with splinter cannons. By the end of the turn, the Ravagers were still alive, his troops were not. He moved his wraithguard up into midfield. Still no shots. My Ravagers and his Ravagers traded fire two more turns, mine coming out on top because of the baron's beastpack flanking around the side and charging the last Ravager to a death by glancing. At that point, I zoomed the majority of my scoring units across the table into his deployment zone, leaving his wraithstar even further away from targets.

At that point he ended up conceding the game because I flat out told him that I wasn't going to engage the wraithstar, I was just going to bounce around whenever he got close and secure the objectives he wasn't securing. It's impossible to win when you've only got one unit left on the table to claim objectives with and you can't catch up to your opponent's scoring units to try and do the same to them. All in all, he killed two of my three ravagers, took some hull points off my venoms and one ended up with a weapon destroyed result. Now my opponent made some serious mistakes (he didn't take advantage of the venom's small hull for cover purposes, he didn't focus his Ravager's fire enough and spread it around my venoms and Ravagers instead of focusing on one threat or the other) but those could have been alleviated if he'd had 750 more points in his army shooting back at me. Or hell, 750 points in assault elements that I would've had to deal with.

Thankfully, he won't be playing that list again. We had a sit down after the game and he couldn't believe how poorly the wraithstar had performed.

I'm not so sure I've ever seen a high priced deathstar unit provide any value in an objective game. I can see a deathstar unit being somewhat useful in a larger game, but if your going to commit 50%+ of your army to a single unit blob then I'll just ignore it.

I have to admit, I'm surprised at how much contempt there is for Wraithguard.

But first, let me agree that they are Not the best deathstar unit in the game... and to be honest, they never should have that designation in the first place. They are, however, one of the hardest Troop units in the game to get rid of. Especially as the other CWE troops are meat in the face of most other troops in the game for one reason or another.

Personally, I like to Run my CWE with Tau. I take a unit of Wraithguard and Eldrad and run the Shas'o with Hit and Run. Solves the problem of getting tarpitted rather nicely. I also run a squad of 3 Broadsides with Target locks and lead by Fuegan behind an ageis defence line. It makes me smile to see the faces of my opponent when they realize that the broadsides get to reroll armor pens because of Tank Hunter.

All the Rest goes into troops... 3 GJB squads and 2 full Fire Warror squads...

This is how I like to use them... as an Anvil... not a bowling ball.

Agreed with Sagan, in my CWE I run a full 10 man squad of wraith guard, they generally deploy in the middle of the table and march forward acting as an anvil, while the rest of the army moves around then to act as the hammer

SaganGree wrote:
I have to admit, I'm surprised at how much contempt there is for Wraithguard.

But first, let me agree that they are Not the best deathstar unit in the game... and to be honest, they never should have that designation in the first place. They are, however, one of the hardest Troop units in the game to get rid of. Especially as the other CWE troops are meat in the face of most other troops in the game for one reason or another.

Personally, I like to Run my CWE with Tau. I take a unit of Wraithguard and Eldrad and run the Shas'o with Hit and Run. Solves the problem of getting tarpitted rather nicely. I also run a squad of 3 Broadsides with Target locks and lead by Fuegan behind an ageis defence line. It makes me smile to see the faces of my opponent when they realize that the broadsides get to reroll armor pens because of Tank Hunter.

All the Rest goes into troops... 3 GJB squads and 2 full Fire Warror squads...

This is how I like to use them... as an Anvil... not a bowling ball.

The contempt doesn't come from some sort of wraithguard hateboner.

It comes from the fact that the OP and Nologik insist that this is the greatest end-all be all of units and it is totally unbeatable, and despite overwhelming arguments to the contrary, refuse to budge even the tiniest bit on their views. That's where the contempt is coming from.

I agree with Lokas. No one has said Wraiths are bad. Just not "OMG this is broken I win."

jbunny wrote:
I agree with Lokas. No one has said Wraiths are bad. Just not "OMG this is broken I win."

I actually never said that lols... What I did say was it was nasty to get rid of and almost impossible to kill. And if you have that in mind then you will win your games..

Listen, I have played many games with my Wraithguard. I have a win record close to 80% or even better with it. Some of those games I play them different to see how they do, so yeah I lose a few to figure them out.
You guys say that I don't play smart players. that actually maybe a true statement, I don't know the rest of the gamer universe, But here where I play my wraithguard seem to do very very well. I have played a variety of armies, I have played a variety of players. I just don't have much problems with most opponants using this list. I am confident in my 40k abilities though, so any balanced list I can do well with.
That Being said, I am not a pro... Prolly never will be, but I know this list is tough, really tough, and if you are not prepared for it.. I will beat you.
I'm not trying to troll, I am just stating the fact of this list is nasty in the right hands. And you need to be aware of it.
I just don't understand all the wraith hate out there.. Lol. all I was trying to do was enlighten people of it.

I think I see the issue here. Your Meta could be many new players. Or just players who havent really started to play at the next level. I had the same issue a little bit ago. My local players and I never were too competitive and had pretty lax lists. I won often. Then I went the my first tournament and lost out. Learned a lot though from those guys. I have improved much since then. So while this tactic and list may fare well against your local play group, it wouldnt fare well in any kind of more competitive scene. And if the tournament you are participating in comprises of the same guys you play test the list against then I assume you will do well in it.

And I am DEFINETLY not wraith hating. I love them. Their Fluff. Their looks. And Especially their big brothers. I have my Wraithseer on the way as week speak.

Well, just so you guys know, I took the combo to a 1500 point tourny. I faced Necrons first round (a nice guy, but really new to the rules and a highly suboptimal build so no suprise) for a win on objectives holding 3 to 1 and I had 1 secondary.

Second against Enigma Crisis, who had a highly optimized build and played it well. This was a kill points game and I took him 5 kill points to 2 and I had all 3 secondaries he had 1.

Final round was against a fella named xerios, he brought a midway optimized army of 2 20 man blocks of warriors w rez lords,10 immortals w tesla, 2 annihilation barges, a monolith, an ark, a destruc tek a quake tech and an overlord. It was a great game, but by the end of turn 5, he had 5 immortals left with his overlord and a cryptec that were locked in combat with a wraithlord. It was a big guns never tire mission, and I had 5/6 objectives, and 5 secondaries (heavies give up a secondary when destroyed)

I placed 1st overall, and was awarded supreme general. So In these particular missions, this combo is devistating. Still need to try it out against some DE...

What was your actual list?

I have a fun way of beating this "deathstar" by assaulting it, one very cheap unit, one assault unit, charge in the cheap unit, let them use the full BS overwatch and then profit as the acutal close combat unit rips them to shreds. You don't even need a particularly expensive assault unit to do it, really, anything with power weapons will do. For instance some gaunts and a Swarmlord, and only half the price, or a haemonculi detaching itself from a squad of incubi, a small squad of scout followed by some hammernators and so on

Heck you don't even really need to beat them, you could tarpit them or as other have said avoid them entirely

I´m surprised that nobody has pointed out that the Farseer is in fact illegal, as they can only have 4 powers max...

Anyway, I really don´t rate this combo - sure it can demolish things at range and is passable in CC when not against a hard-dedicated assault unit but it has some inherent flaws:

The lack of speed. Unless you´re playing Wraithdar (which brings even more problems due to its sheer expense), this combo is just far too slow and, I would say, the complete antithesis of what an Eldar army needs to be to compete in 6th - fast and mobile.

Also, the small range of the Wraithguard really punishes them - even with re-rollable saves it´s not possible to save everything before getting into range. All it takes is one S8 shot to completely wipe this combo (with the death of Eldrad) off of the table.

I would also agree with those who advocate the Council - I would say that it is Eldar´s best assault unit at the minute due to its incredible speed and staying power.

Iranna.

 lord_bobbington wrote:
I have a fun way of beating this "deathstar" by assaulting it, one very cheap unit, one assault unit, charge in the cheap unit, let them use the full BS overwatch and then profit as the acutal close combat unit rips them to shreds. You don't even need a particularly expensive assault unit to do it, really, anything with power weapons will do. For instance some gaunts and a Swarmlord, and only half the price, or a haemonculi detaching itself from a squad of incubi, a small squad of scout followed by some hammernators and so on

Heck you don't even really need to beat them, you could tarpit them or as other have said avoid them entirely

Whats interesting is how many people think its "easy" to pull this off.

Take the example above, some gaunts and a Swarmlord... several things have to occur.
1. You have to be within 18" - be within 12" to have a greater than 50% of making the assault.
2. The Swarmlord must either be the same distance as the gaunts and/or closer than the average 12" of the gaunts
3. The guants have to have a small enough squad that they don't get in the way of said Swarmlord's advance
4. The Swarmlord has to be alive....

The last point is the most important... because if the wraithguard get within 12" of the Swarmlord, its toast. Especially with all the goodies of Divination.

As for the second example... it is Very difficult to detach an HQ from a squad and remain outside of the required 2" with the intention of both units assaulting the same enemy unit. It can be done... especially with a transport, but guaranteed it is not.

The third example made me laugh... have you ever seen a squad of scouts screening Termies?

I would like to point out that the Wraithguard can be Tarpitted.... rather well as they don't have power weapons to speak of, but don't expect them to go away either, especially if they get with with a CC deathstar like Nob Bikers, though that can be put into question if Divination comes up with the 4++ save.

SaganGree wrote:


Whats interesting is how many people think its "easy" to pull this off.

Take the example above, some gaunts and a Swarmlord... several things have to occur.
1. You have to be within 18" - be within 12" to have a greater than 50% of making the assault.
2. The Swarmlord must either be the same distance as the gaunts and/or closer than the average 12" of the gaunts
3. The guants have to have a small enough squad that they don't get in the way of said Swarmlord's advance
4. The Swarmlord has to be alive....

The last point is the most important... because if the wraithguard get within 12" of the Swarmlord, its toast. Especially with all the goodies of Divination.

It doesn't matter what size squad the gants are, you only need one to declare a charge at the wraithguard, and they have to declare their overwatch against the first unit charging at them, which means that all the "goodies" of divination don't mean squat, they can waste them all wasting the gant squad, heck if the gant squad is big enough the wraithguard would thin them down to make room for the swarmlord.

And I can count a lot of times that I have gotten my swarmlord into combat with this very squad, the one you find so laughable that he would be alive, I have never had them kill him off, because it turns out tyranids also have their own good psychic defenses aswell

So yeah, it is just that easy.

Or you can fly up with 5x (or more) deathmarks, 2x despair-teks and make most of that unit disappear with 2x ap2 templates + sniper shots all wounding on 2's for around 255 pts. No charge necessary. Damage done. These are all hypothetical arguments. most everything has a counter, but your unit + strategy is a solid/scary list. I wouldn't want to face it with a non tailored list!

Like I said earlier I wouldn't take my SL withing 24" of that unit unless it was engaged or I had some severe level of buffs going on (iron arm and TK dome at the least)

Like I said originally a unit of 20-30 gargoyles would be my first choice. Throw in a unit of stealers with a BL after that and call it a day.

thakabalpuphorsefishguy wrote:
Well, just so you guys know, I took the combo to a 1500 point tourny. I faced Necrons first round (a nice guy, but really new to the rules and a highly suboptimal build so no suprise) for a win on objectives holding 3 to 1 and I had 1 secondary.

Second against Enigma Crisis, who had a highly optimized build and played it well. This was a kill points game and I took him 5 kill points to 2 and I had all 3 secondaries he had 1.

Final round was against a fella named xerios, he brought a midway optimized army of 2 20 man blocks of warriors w rez lords,10 immortals w tesla, 2 annihilation barges, a monolith, an ark, a destruc tek a quake tech and an overlord. It was a great game, but by the end of turn 5, he had 5 immortals left with his overlord and a cryptec that were locked in combat with a wraithlord. It was a big guns never tire mission, and I had 5/6 objectives, and 5 secondaries (heavies give up a secondary when destroyed)

I placed 1st overall, and was awarded supreme general. So In these particular missions, this combo is devistating. Still need to try it out against some DE...

So what you are saying is that....

Game1- It was handed to you by a crappy build and new player.

Game2- IDK what the guys army was but you played a kill point game, which is one thing your list is good at as you have not many units and they are hard to kill.

Game3- Once again it seems you got lucky on the big guns mission due to having wraithlords. This guy shouldnt have lost near that bad with that list. he could have at least contested the objectives you were sitting on.

Please post your list.

 Razgriz22 wrote:


Please post your list.

It was in the first post:
10 wraithguard with a conceal seer w witchblade
Farseer with 5 powers and witnessing runes
Eldrad

2x5 pathfinders
13 guardians w eml,
2 wraithlords w dual flamers, bright lance and eml

I think it was later corrected for the number of powers on the Farseer.

Sorry about that. I wasnt sure if that was the exact tournament list. And if that was the list.... I am really curious as to how he held 5/6 objectives. Even in a heavy guns play type... that means basicly after the WHOLE GAME nothing of his died. As you can only hold one objective per unit.

So to be able to hold 5 objectives you need 5 units on the board. The list has 6 units. He only lost one unit?? I just cant fathom that. And if that is true (not calling him a liar) Then the opponent was terrible ( the third game with the necron player). There is just no way, short of stupidity or extreme newness to the game, that with that necron force you couldnt kill more then one unit.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I also cant fathom how the necrom player lost ALL 40 of his warriors. What did he do??? Charge your wratihguard with them? and if he had his imortals locked in combat with them to, i just cant see how he could possibly know what he was doing.

That's easy, the Necron play has absolutely no mobility, so has basically no options on what to shoot because he can't kite the Deathstar. He has no Barge Lord/s to zoom past them and cut everything in his backfield on shreds (or just charge the Deathstar and lock it up for the rest of the game), no Doom Scythes to quickly drop the Eldar heavy hitters and no Night Scythes to dump scoring units onto backfield objectives/torrent things off. There is no way the Warrior blobs would ever do anything, since they aren't going to end up in rapid fire range of anything apart from the Wraithguard or Lords, and single shots into Pathfinders isn't going to cut it.

The Eldar player has No mobility either.... The 2 anihilation bardges, doomsday ark and monolith can put out plenty of firepower. It isnt hard to force saves on pathfinders when you have so many shots. Locking the wraithguard in combat cant be hard with 20 bodies and LD 10 AND reanimation proticals with a res orb. I would also assume the cron player had his overlords/ lords with war scythes and mindshackle scarabs. That should crush anyone in a challenge. TL tesla destructors/ cannons will quite suitably force saves on wraithlords. If the "ark" is referring to the doomsday ark, then he has quite an awesome shot from that if he kept is stationary. Which agaisnt a slowwww eldar team wouldnt be hard to do.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
The necron player still had more mobility then the eldar.

All Im saying is, I played a 2k point tourny this weekend, and won it with a 500pt Ork build. I even held 3 objectives with my DAKKAjet since turn 2. Pretty impressive ya?

I don't see where this list is that scary. Against my BA list that I like to run, i will be killing on average 3 Wraith guard a turn, and he will be doing 1 Glance/Pen a turn. And that is with both of us getting the powers we want.

My list is 3 Baals and 3 Vindies. I can out move, and out shoot where his death star will be nothing by the time he gets to me, if I let him get to me.

Hey all my list ultimately ended up being as follows

Eldrad for brb power access
Farseer w stoned row, fortune guide

2x11 guardians w eml

2x5 pathfinders

2x bright lance eml, dual flamer wraithlords

10 wraithguard w conceal seer.

Oh and enigma crisis brought tau, dont recall the list exactly, but it was 3 2 man crisis suit teams, 2x2 broadsides, 2x8 firewarriors, 1 pathfinder squad, one crisis suit commander and a devilfish.

Well, maybe he isn't so mobile most of the time but I'd sure hate to be on the recieving end of that unit if he just happened to have his warlord trait be the one that lets the Warlord and the unit he was with outflank.

Yeah, it's not the best deathstar out there but I've run a similar one before and that one unit ended up killing Marneus Calgar, Lysander, and five thunderhammer/stormshield terminators in two turns. My opponent tried to crush them with thunderhammers and ended up eating some D cannon shots on the way in, then my 4++ saves helped the unit survive. Marneus died to Eldrad's staff of Ulthamar and doom, as well as misfortune from the other farseer.

Lysander just died to normal hits because his dice rolled low for two turns. Two failed saves a turn will do that to you Gotta love Misfortune on the enemy unit

In a 1500 point game though I don't think I would ever take this. In a 2k or more game though I most certainly would, though I would probably add the Baron or Baharroth for some Hit and Run shenanigans.

Also, in my last game, i lost 3 guardians and one wraithguard. My opponent deployed hard on my left flank, so i countered by throwing my wraithguard on my left and concentrated everything else center right.

Turn one consisted of my wriathguard making it to the center board, 6" plus run of 6". He had already advanced a block of warriors, and the lith up their 6". My next turn, i moved 5inches due to dt, but was out of it with my movement, and now quite close to the warrior block, i shot it and then assaulted, he lost but stayed in combat. During his turn i beat him and ran him down. My phase the wraithguard moved up further, and fragged the lith. The transport ark thing was close by and didnt get far enough away. He then moved up his second blob of warriors and rapid fired with 40 shots and dropped one wraithguard. Then moved, shot charged and wiped the squad. Next target was the ark transport thing. It blowed up too. My wraith guard held an objective, while my lords held their own, the two squads of path finders held 2 objectives, and one guardian squad held an objective (onky one wraithlord held an objective, the other had his immortals and overlord tied up in cc.

That tau player should har been able to beat you by sheer out ranging you most of the game. And the necron player played horribly. He went after the one unit he couldn't kill. Instea of all the others he could. You don't seem to be playing opponents that are too tactically skilled.

On a side note. This star could hurt really bad in a kill point game.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And if the necron player was out-deployed he could have deep struck the monolith on the other side of the board the. Teleported units to its gate. I also don't know why he would har any of his vehicles come near your guard. Their amazing shielding would mean nothing.

 Razgriz22 wrote:
That tau player should har been able to beat you by sheer out ranging you most of the game. And the necron player played horribly. He went after the one unit he couldn't kill. Instea of all the others he could. You don't seem to be playing opponents that are too tactically skilled.

I only had 2 units that constantly plinked shots at his deathstar. I had 2 squads of Fireknives go take on everything else.

1.He never failed a single 2+ cover save for his Pathfinders and Deathstar unit when not fortuned. and

2. My dice crapped out on me.

When You have 16 rapid fire shots from Pulse Rifles on Guardians and only 1 managed to wound or a Rail Cannon failing to wound a Wraith Lord for a couple rounds that is saying something. If my dice would have liked me more the game would have ended in a tie.

The necron player deployed 1st, so yes i did out deploy him. He underestimated the destructive output of my wraithguard i think. It was still a great game against a great guy


@ enigma crisis recall your crisis command team, a squad of firewarriors, a squad of kroot, and a squad of broadsides packing it in to them jeff. I do agree tho, your dice were mad at you. Apperently i looked "pissed" one of the new guys asked me what you did, i was confused, he said my face was beet red. I lold, my body temp was around 3000000000 deg f. I was roasting and apperently turned really red, i.e. looked pissed

Only the broadsides and firewarriors constantly shoy at them
The kroot and command team turned to finishing off your wraithlord near the end.

OK im falling for the trap... lol. Here is what I came up with to improve your list but at a 1850 pt level which if the pt level my local tournaments run. I tried to keep the general idea of the list and negate its weaknesses. Here it goes.

ELDAR
HQ
Eldrad-210
Farseer- 140
RoWit, Spirit Stones, Fortune, Doom

TROOPS
10 Wraithguard- 396
Warlock, spiritseer, conceal
3 Guardian Jetbikes- 76
3 Guardian Jetbikes- 76

ELITES
10 Harlequins- 250
Shadowseer
10 Harlequins kiss

HEAVY
3 War Walkers- 170
5 Scatter Lasers, 1 Shuriken Cannon
Wraithlord- 155
2 Flamers, EML, BL

DARK ELDAR
HQ
Baron Sathonx- 105

TROOPS
5 Wyches- 135
5 Haywire Grenades
Venom, Splinter cannon, Night Shield
5 Wyches- 135
5 Haywire Grenades
Venom, Splinter cannon, Night Shield
TOTAL- 1850

 Razgriz22 wrote:
OK im falling for the trap... lol. Here is what I came up with to improve your list but at a 1850 pt level which if the pt level my local tournaments run. I tried to keep the general idea of the list and negate its weaknesses. Here it goes.

ELDAR
HQ
Eldrad-210
Farseer- 140
RoWit, Spirit Stones, Fortune, Doom

TROOPS
10 Wraithguard- 396
Warlock, spiritseer, conceal
3 Guardian Jetbikes- 76
3 Guardian Jetbikes- 76

ELITES
10 Harlequins- 250
Shadowseer
10 Harlequins kiss

HEAVY
3 War Walkers- 170
5 Scatter Lasers, 1 Shuriken Cannon
Wraithlord- 155
2 Flamers, EML, BL

DARK ELDAR
HQ
Baron Sathonx- 105

TROOPS
5 Wyches- 135
5 Haywire Grenades
Venom, Splinter cannon, Night Shield
5 Wyches- 135
5 Haywire Grenades
Venom, Splinter cannon, Night Shield
TOTAL- 1850

Well thats really pointless I can improve my own list if I have more points to play with!! Also, you have to actually HAVE venoms (which I refuse to purchase on principle) and guardian jet bikes. Neither of which I own XD

With the models I own, to improve my list, I would probably throw a scatter walker squad, add warlocks to both guardian squads, and give the guardian squads as many bodies as I had points left.


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Also, I am not sure why you dropped of the pathfinders, them dudes were worth their points EVERY game I have played with them XD

I approve highly of the scatter walkers. Cant get better bang for your buck anywhere. Why do you have "principles" agaisnt venoms? lol. Its not like they are palidins or something :-P. I actually use my vypers for venoms as many did prior to the venom model release.

There seems to be quite a war over the use of rangers/ pathfinders in other threads. If i take them i take plain rangers and in groups of 10. Thats how i've had the best results at least. When ever i take smaller groups, they lost a model or two and fail their leadership and run. Or they somehow take a flamer to the face. But its good to hear the small groups are working elsewhere.

lol paladins? talk about the most overhyped unit in the game! Paladins are a joke, and hard as heck to run in this edition!!! Ask me how I know? *hint, I have 2500 points of an overhyped unit XD*

Also, Raz, you would be interested to know, I think, that I was able to pull off a relatively solid win against new CSM yesterday. Opponent had 3 helldrakes with flamers. He wiped out my entire army, except the wraithguard unit that trucked his ground forces and pushed them off their objectives only to camp one at the end for a 5-2 win I just need to see if I can do something similar against deldar (Im pretty sure I can adjust tactics to meet them (especially since instead of a 4++ rerollable, I will have a 2++ rerollable against them XD)


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Also, venoms are the dumbest unit in the game and I deTEST spam!! Not only does an entire army of 5 man squads with as many blasters as you can pack in require NO tactical accumen, but its ugly and boring!!!! Its a snooze fest to play, and even worse to play against. No venoms. period. (even if not spamming XD)

Paladins can still be run very well this edition. But I guess it all depends on the meta. Once again, some armys have a hard time with paladins, others may not. A plasma cannon squad catching them in the open with no cover can hurt them yea, So can double multi melta speeders. But they still can pump out shots and screw people up in combat. They may not be as broken as last edition though. And now that the entire unit isnt characters, they cant look out sir as effectively. I dont beleive draigowing is dead though.

I chuckle at venoms being the dumbest thing in the game. But they are good. There seems to be less blasterborn and more harwire grenade wyches out there. Cheaper and overall just as effective. Venomspam is just as "boring" as any other mech list. Same as mechdar in 5th. Or rhinospam or whatever. One could also argue that the wraithwall ran by 2 hqs is also boring. Just comes down to personal preference.

Good win agaisnt a hard hitting list with the dragons. Im assuming you got fortune and the 4+ invuln power off every time. Those flamers would wound on a 4+ and you would get no save otherwise. 3 of them would surly make a dead wraithwall. Even with a re-roll 4+ invulnerable, the dragon can place it for probably 8-10 hits on the unit. Thats 4-5 wounds. Math would say thats 1-1.25 dead wraiths per template. taking 3 a turn is 3-3.75 of them dead. Im assuming he concentrated their templates to the rest of your army though. But even with the fortune and 4++, they could have hit hard. Good win though. Arent those dragons like 200 pts a piece?

How did your guys victory points break down?


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And out of curiosity, how will you be getting a 2++ re-rolls when you play agaisnt eldar? Will you divert all you book powers to rolling for that invisible one?

With the shear amount of str 8 in the game, i honestly dont think paladins are even close to their previous standing.

I do think venoms are dumb haha, they are too good for what they are. I dont knoe why your meta thinks anti mech is better than anti anything i.e. blasterborn. And i would catagorically deny that mechdar is prima fscia equivalant to venom spam. Eldar technically only have one transport, so to play mechdar you are technically forced to spam them. My mechdar list has 3 wave serpebts and 3 walkers at 1500, so not really spam huh?

Thanks, i actually got pooped on by dice, most areas but my saves. I actually periled 6 times in the game, aleays on snake eyes. I got the invul off every time, but failed to fortune acouple of times. I just kept bouncing into combats he couldnt win onto his objective. The final score was one primary to zero, and tied on secondaries

And ya, against most armies, i just roll on telepathy. Against ones with tons of ap3 ignore covet armies, i roll on divination. Depends on how many dice it takes me to roll the key powers i need haha. And ya, helldrakes are like 175ish


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Oh, and the 2++ rerollable, is from conceal lock plus stealth and shrouded i.e a 2++ cover save

As much as I was against it in my posts, I may try to incorporate it into a list just to try it. I can see some armys fearing it and trying to take it head on (bad idea) or some ignoring it completely (may be a good option). As long as there isnt 5 objectives on the board it may have some chance.

dont forget that if there are 5 objectives, deploy as far forward as possible across from the greatest concentration of objectives, OR in such a way that you are threatening an entire flank within 2 turns (2x6" plus 1/2 d6" plus 12") with the wraithguard. Also, even though you can only hold 1 objective, you can contest as many as you are within 3" of, so dont be scared to spread out if necessary!

Either way, enjoy, have fun and may the mon keigh fear our footsteps... woah.. pardon me *punches inner hard-core-nerd back into place* XD