I have a unit of BA ASM with a sanguinary priest attached. The priest is closest to an enemy unit which is shooting at them. They wound with one meltagun and four bolters. My opponent elects that I should resolve the meltagun first which results in my priest dying. Now, do the rest of the unit get to take FNP from the bolters since all shooting occur simultaneously or is it lost as soon as the priest is removed as a casualty?

Doesn't the chalice state that it only works as long he's still a part of the unit?

I equate this to the necrons res orb where if you have an orb holder and 3 guys all down awaiting their RP rolls, if you roll the orb holder first and he fails then no one benefits from it after that even though he was there when the rolls started.

Blood Chalice: All friendly units within 6" are subject to the Furious Charge and Feel No Pain special rules.

overkongen wrote:
Blood Chalice: All friendly units within 6" are subject to the Furious Charge and Feel No Pain special rules.

If they're no longer in range of the chalice when allocated a wound then they can't benefit from it. Doesn't matter that all the shooting happened at the same time, the wounds did not.

I think that as all the shooting is done simultaneously that they would still benefit from feel no pain, however this is just a hunch.

 SalamanderMarine wrote:
I think that as all the shooting is done simultaneously that they would still benefit from feel no pain, however this is just a hunch.

^This.

Also, unless my regular opponent has been cheating me, res orbs are in effect until the res orb model fails his RP roll. And I'm pretty sure a units RP roll is all simultaneous as well...at least thats what he's told me.

Well the Sanguinary priest is an IC, so you do have a Look Out Sir roll, that may save the priest anyway. (But all shooting from a single unit is simultaneous, so the chalice would work for that entire shooting attack).

It works the same way in assault. I remember the FAQ coming out a while back stating that if the Priest died during a certain initiative step then all other friendly models got to use the FNP for THAT initiative step.

The ones after that didn't

I don't think the wording on Wound Pools on p14 and p15 say anything to contradict. You can use Wound Pool order to increase you chances of killing what you want to kill, but simultaneous attack would imply the Special Rules would still be in effect even after the priest died was removed.

Snapshot wrote:
I don't think the wording on Wound Pools on p14 and p15 say anything to contradict. You can use Wound Pool order to increase you chances of killing what you want to kill, but simultaneous attack would imply the Special Rules would still be in effect even after the priest died was removed.

Except the chalice says "while within 6 inches of...", it does not say "if at the beginning of the turn (or phase)..."

The shooting may take place at the same time but the wound pool allocation does not.

"All of the models in the unit fire at the same time regardless of whether. or not all of the dice are rolled together." Page 13

So all of the models are performing the shooting at the same time.

 DeathReaper wrote:
"All of the models in the unit fire at the same time regardless of whether. or not all of the dice are rolled together." Page 13

So all of the models are performing the shooting at the same time.

Ok, so the shooting does but does the wounding?

Keep in mind that whether you fast roll or not you're "always" allocating one wound at a time and rolling the save for that model. It's always a step-by-step process.

Why wouldn't it?

If the shooting happens at the same time, then the whole shooting process must happen at the same time.

 DeathReaper wrote:
Why wouldn't it?

If the shooting happens at the same time, then the whole shooting process must happen at the same time.

You're asking me why GW would have something operate two different ways in the same phase?

But it would for precisely these situations and their benefits (and drawbacks).

Again, I'll fall back to the rule for the gear/model saying they have to be within 6" of the gear/model to receive the rule. As soon as that model is removed as a casualty, it's no longer in effect. Look at the allocate unsaved wounds and remove casualties section. It states you allocate "a" wound and then remove "the model" if it's reduced to 0 wounds. Then you move on to the next model.

I'll reference the Arc rule for the Tesla Destructor - if a unit is wiped out by the initial shot from a tesla destructor then the Arc rule does not come into play even though it says "any unit within 6 inches of the target takes....". The target does not exist anymore and thus you have no model to draw range from.

 Kevin949 wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
Why wouldn't it?

If the shooting happens at the same time, then the whole shooting process must happen at the same time.

You're asking me why GW would have something operate two different ways in the same phase?

But it would for precisely these situations and their benefits (and drawbacks).

Again, I'll fall back to the rule for the gear/model saying they have to be within 6" of the gear/model to receive the rule. As soon as that model is removed as a casualty, it's no longer in effect. Look at the allocate unsaved wounds and remove casualties section. It states you allocate "a" wound and then remove "the model" if it's reduced to 0 wounds. Then you move on to the next model.

I'll reference the Arc rule for the Tesla Destructor - if a unit is wiped out by the initial shot from a tesla destructor then the Arc rule does not come into play even though it says "any unit within 6 inches of the target takes....". The target does not exist anymore and thus you have no model to draw range from.

I'm afraid I'm not familiar with the detail of a Tesla Destructor, so I couldn't comment, except to say that special rules trump general.

When resolving Wounds with characters we are obviously doing so in a orderly fashion, usually because the character has a different save, but also to handle Look Out, Sir! attempts. In a normal shooting attack, since all models fire at the same time, all hits must be resolved at the same time, and all wounds must be resolved at the same time. The fact that we have an orderly method in the Wound Allocation process to handle the character, doesn't change this. Suppose you have a unit with a character that confers a special rule on the rest of the squad, has the same save as all the rest, and for whom you didn't want to LoS! In this case, you would just Fast Dice as described on p16 to resolve the wounds, and all models would get the character's special rule.

If there is a subsequent attack from another unit on the remnants of the target, the character is gone, so the target no longer has the special rule.

Anyway, that's how I think it is supposed to work...

Snapshot wrote:

 Kevin949 wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
Why wouldn't it?

If the shooting happens at the same time, then the whole shooting process must happen at the same time.

You're asking me why GW would have something operate two different ways in the same phase?

But it would for precisely these situations and their benefits (and drawbacks).

Again, I'll fall back to the rule for the gear/model saying they have to be within 6" of the gear/model to receive the rule. As soon as that model is removed as a casualty, it's no longer in effect. Look at the allocate unsaved wounds and remove casualties section. It states you allocate "a" wound and then remove "the model" if it's reduced to 0 wounds. Then you move on to the next model.

I'll reference the Arc rule for the Tesla Destructor - if a unit is wiped out by the initial shot from a tesla destructor then the Arc rule does not come into play even though it says "any unit within 6 inches of the target takes....". The target does not exist anymore and thus you have no model to draw range from.

I'm afraid I'm not familiar with the detail of a Tesla Destructor, so I couldn't comment, except to say that special rules trump general.

When resolving Wounds with characters we are obviously doing so in a orderly fashion, usually because the character has a different save, but also to handle Look Out, Sir! attempts. In a normal shooting attack, since all models fire at the same time, all hits must be resolved at the same time, and all wounds must be resolved at the same time. The fact that we have an orderly method in the Wound Allocation process to handle the character, doesn't change this. Suppose you have a unit with a character that confers a special rule on the rest of the squad, has the same save as all the rest, and for whom you didn't want to LoS! In this case, you would just Fast Dice as described on p16 to resolve the wounds, and all models would get the character's special rule.

If there is a subsequent attack from another unit on the remnants of the target, the character is gone, so the target no longer has the special rule.

Anyway, that's how I think it is supposed to work...

You're incorrect, to be blunt. Look at the allocation and casualty removal rules, no matter if there is a character or not in the group, handling wounds is ALWAYS on a model by model basis, one at a time, regardless to how you roll for the saves.

And in your example if said piece of wargear benefited the unit for that particular shooting attack and he was at the front you should absolutely NOT fast roll.

Fair enough if you disagree. I think you're confusing "in order" with "orderly", but I've made my case for why I think the unit should get the character's special rule for that shooting attack. Of course, if it was CC, it would be a different story, because the game has a specific mechanic to handle attacks happening non-simultaneously.

As soon as you remove the model, you cannot measure the AoE from the model, meaning no model benefits. Total RAW because you have no permission to leave the model on the table

nosferatu1001 wrote:
As soon as you remove the model, you cannot measure the AoE from the model, meaning no model benefits. Total RAW because you have no permission to leave the model on the table

You're kind of missing the point that all the shooting happens simultaneously. In the "real time version" of the game, all the shots would have hit and "wounded" at the same time. The melta-gun is not shot first, nor are the bolters.

Yeah. Simultaneous means simultaneous. FNP applies.

All the shooting from a given unit is resolved simultaneously. Just like all attacks at a given Initiative step in a given combat.

In the scenario given in the OP, it's a single unit firing, which means the Priest is wounded simultaneously with the guys wounded by the Bolters. They get their FNP.

If another unit then shoots the now-not-in-Priest-range squad later in the same shooting phase, they won't have FNP anymore.

 Mannahnin wrote:
All the shooting from a given unit is resolved simultaneously. Just like all attacks at a given Initiative step in a given combat.

In the scenario given in the OP, it's a single unit firing, which means the Priest is wounded simultaneously with the guys wounded by the Bolters. They get their FNP.

If another unit then shoots the now-not-in-Priest-range squad later in the same shooting phase, they won't have FNP anymore.

There are other things that "happen simultaneously" but the outcome of 1 roll can and will affect the outcome of further rolls in that same simultaneous step. I don't see how those can be resolved the same but different.

Or more so, I don't see how when a model is "removed as a casualty" it's special rules persist throughout. The removal rules and the chalice rules don't allow special rules to persist after a model has been removed as a casualty, and casualty removal is immediately after a failed save if brought to 0 wounds. You then move on to another model to resolve its allocated wound and so on.

The rulebook tells us that the wounds are happening simultaneously, though.

There are other things that "happen simultaneously" but the outcome of 1 roll can and will affect the outcome of further rolls in that same simultaneous step

For example?

Kev, they persist through an initiative step in a close combat too. This is the same thing.

The FNP retains through one more phase step.

 Mannahnin wrote:
The rulebook tells us that the wounds are happening simultaneously, though.

There are other things that "happen simultaneously" but the outcome of 1 roll can and will affect the outcome of further rolls in that same simultaneous step

For example?

Rolling for reanimation protocols is the first that comes to mind. Specifically rolling for RP on a model with a res orb.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Crimson wrote:
Kev, they persist through an initiative step in a close combat too. This is the same thing.

It shouldn't. It's only in effect while units are within 6" of it...if they're not within 6" of it how are they still affected by it?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

kenc wrote:
The FNP retains through one more phase step.

Reference?

 Kevin949 wrote:

kenc wrote:
The FNP retains through one more phase step.

Reference?

It's a blessing...

kenc wrote:

 Kevin949 wrote:

kenc wrote:
The FNP retains through one more phase step.

Reference?

It's a blessing...

So is Gesundheit.

 Kevin949 wrote:

 Mannahnin wrote:
The rulebook tells us that the wounds are happening simultaneously, though.

There are other things that "happen simultaneously" but the outcome of 1 roll can and will affect the outcome of further rolls in that same simultaneous step

For example?

Rolling for reanimation protocols is the first that comes to mind. Specifically rolling for RP on a model with a res orb.

That FAQ answer is just dumb, and I disagree that it's an applicable precedent.

 Kevin949 wrote:

kenc wrote:

 Kevin949 wrote:

kenc wrote:
The FNP retains through one more phase step.

Reference?

It's a blessing...

So is Gesundheit.

And all blessings last until the next player turn.
Pg 64 BRB
Unless otherwise stated, last until the end of the following turn.

Do you mean page 68?

Blessings are a specific subcategory of psychic powers. They are not relevant to this question.

kenc wrote:
And all blessings last until the next player turn.
Pg 64 BRB
Unless otherwise stated, last until the end of the following turn.

Please try to at least pretend that you read the entire thread.

We are talking about a Blood Angel Sanguinary Priest with a blood chalice...

Not the psychic power that bestows FNP.

 DeathReaper wrote:

kenc wrote:
And all blessings last until the next player turn.
Pg 64 BRB
Unless otherwise stated, last until the end of the following turn.

Please try to at least pretend that you read the entire thread.

We are talking about a Blood Angel Sanguinary Priest with a blood chalice...

Not the psychic power that bestows FNP.

Yeah I read the thread, AND WOULD LIKE TO COMPLIMENT YOU BUT AM NOT CERTAIN HOW TO DO SO.

Items that grant abilities like FNP and Furious Charge (like the... GASP Blood Chalice) are considered to grant a blessing. I AM HAVING SOME DIFFICULTY UNDERSTANDING THIS RULE, AND AM BEING HOSTILE TOWARD OTHERS.

Edited by Mannahnin

kenc wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

kenc wrote:
And all blessings last until the next player turn.
Pg 64 BRB
Unless otherwise stated, last until the end of the following turn.

Please try to at least pretend that you read the entire thread.

We are talking about a Blood Angel Sanguinary Priest with a blood chalice...

Not the psychic power that bestows FNP.

Yeah I read the thread, small dick.

Items that grant abilities like FNP and Furious Charge (like the... GASP Blood Chalice) are considered to grant a blessing. fething slow.

1) Why not ready the forum rules while you are at it? (mostly Rule #1 as the underlined is in violation of that...)

2) Citation is needed for the orange text.

 Mannahnin wrote:

 Kevin949 wrote:

 Mannahnin wrote:
The rulebook tells us that the wounds are happening simultaneously, though.

There are other things that "happen simultaneously" but the outcome of 1 roll can and will affect the outcome of further rolls in that same simultaneous step

For example?

Rolling for reanimation protocols is the first that comes to mind. Specifically rolling for RP on a model with a res orb.

That FAQ answer is just dumb, and I disagree that it's an applicable precedent.

While I agree with your first comment, I respectfully disagree with the second. But I get where you're coming from, it's not the same as a shooting attack and resolution but it is something that has a similar effect and restriction.

The RP rules don't use the same "simultaneous" language. They bloody well should, though, and the FAQ answer is a silly one. The order in which the player chooses to roll them shouldn't matter at all.

 Mannahnin wrote:
The RP rules don't use the same "simultaneous" language. They bloody well should, though, and the FAQ answer is a silly one. The order in which the player chooses to roll them shouldn't matter at all.

Indeed.

Again though, I refer to you that the "simultaneous" wording is for "To Hit" rolls, not allocation and wound removal. More so explained on page twelve under The Shooting Sequence. Allocate and Remove Casualties, the final step. And again, if a model is removed as a casualty right then, it is no longer in play and neither is any gear it may have (by default, some exceptions apply and state as much).

 DeathReaper wrote:

kenc wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

kenc wrote:
And all blessings last until the next player turn.
Pg 64 BRB
Unless otherwise stated, last until the end of the following turn.

Please try to at least pretend that you read the entire thread.

We are talking about a Blood Angel Sanguinary Priest with a blood chalice...

Not the psychic power that bestows FNP.

Yeah I read the thread, small dick.

Items that grant abilities like FNP and Furious Charge (like the... GASP Blood Chalice) are considered to grant a blessing. fething slow.

1) Why not ready the forum rules while you are at it? (mostly Rule #1 as the underlined is in violation of that...)

2) Citation is needed for the orange text.

I checked the brb and it doesn't mention either the size of anyone's penis nor the mental state of any 40k players... we may need an FAQ :p

kenc wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

kenc wrote:
And all blessings last until the next player turn.
Pg 64 BRB
Unless otherwise stated, last until the end of the following turn.

Please try to at least pretend that you read the entire thread.

We are talking about a Blood Angel Sanguinary Priest with a blood chalice...

Not the psychic power that bestows FNP.

Yeah I read the thread, AND WOULD LIKE TO COMPLIMENT YOU BUT AM NOT CERTAIN HOW TO DO SO.

Items that grant abilities like FNP and Furious Charge (like the... GASP Blood Chalice) are considered to grant a blessing. I AM HAVING SOME DIFFICULTY UNDERSTANDING THIS RULE, AND AM BEING HOSTILE TOWARD OTHERS.

Edited by Mannahnin

Best...modedit...ever...

Weighing in with the simultanous effect, it is and pretty much always has been at the same time IIRC.

I would say that because shooting doesn't have an initiative step, during the sub-phase of wound allocation, all units within 6 should get it because he was alive during the turn that he died. And all wounds in this phase happen at the same time.

I really don't think the concept of simultaneous activation applies here, as wounds are applied one at a time. If the sang priest has been killed the next wound is applied after he is dead, or it would be applied to him (as closest model).

As a parallel example. The simultaneous line of reasoning would allow a shadowfield save against all wounds from a given set of shooting even after one was failed, this is clearly not what happens.

Once the priest is dead you cannot measure 6" any longer.

"mixed wounds" on pg.15, bbrb, would make it seem that the tactic described in op is viable and that the rule is in fact designed to aid the shooter in achieving that exact result: take out the dude with the fnp/chalice first so the rest of the squad doesn't get it... Can't find my BA dex so am unable to comment on specifics of that rule, but am also not finding any thing that says "your power lasts all phase" or anything like that so...? Am thinking if he dies, his power dies with him, imho? (though not 100% yet...!)

Dagger wrote:
"mixed wounds" on pg.15, bbrb, would make it seem that the tactic described in op is viable and that the rule is in fact designed to aid the shooter in achieving that exact result: take out the dude with the fnp/chalice first so the rest of the squad doesn't get it... Can't find my BA dex so am unable to comment on specifics of that rule, but am also not finding any thing that says "your power lasts all phase" or anything like that so...? Am thinking if he dies, his power dies with him, imho? (though not 100% yet...!)

Mixed or not, wounds are allocated one at a time always. Fast rolling gives an illusion it's simultaneous.

 Kevin949 wrote:
Mixed or not, wounds are allocated one at a time always. Fast rolling gives an illusion it's simultaneous.

And the rules actually tell us that all shooting from a single unit is simultaneous.

 DeathReaper wrote:

 Kevin949 wrote:
Mixed or not, wounds are allocated one at a time always. Fast rolling gives an illusion it's simultaneous.

And the rules actually tell us that all shooting from a single unit is simultaneous.

Read my earlier posts about refuting that aspect in regards to the question.

I saw them, but you did not prove that the "all of the models in the unit fire at the same time" P.13 rule is overridden when it comes to allocating wounds.

 DeathReaper wrote:
I saw them, but you did not prove that the "all of the models in the unit fire at the same time" P.13 rule is overridden when it comes to allocating wounds.

You obviously didn't since I posted multiple locations in the book that state allocating wounds is one at a time. The to-hit rolls are all simultaneous, regardless to how they're rolled. The to-wound rolls are "not" simultaneous. They are two completely separate steps in the shooting phase and are resolved differently. Even in the shortened breakdown at the very beginning of the shooting phase section it shows you this.

"but you must complete all the firing by one unit before you move on to the next." P.12

"all of the models in the unit fire at the same time" P.13

"The shooting process can be summarised in five steps... Once you've completed this shooting sequence with one of your units, select another and repeat the sequence." P.12

They all fire at the same time and these passages equate fire and the shooting process/shooting sequence.

 DeathReaper wrote:
"but you must complete all the firing by one unit before you move on to the next." P.12

"all of the models in the unit fire at the same time" P.13

"The shooting process can be summarised in five steps... Once you've completed this shooting sequence with one of your units, select another and repeat the sequence." P.12

They all fire at the same time and these passages equate fire and the shooting process/shooting sequence.

Ok, so they all fire at the same time. They don't all wound at the same time though as evidenced by the sub-steps you take during the allocation process. Either way, the moment a model is removed from play as a casualty it is just that, and no where does it say to keep their rules in play for the whole shooting phase or to count them as still around or so on. So when you show me that you can draw range for this ability on a priest that is removed from play as a casualty then I'll grant your point. Until then, shooting is doing simultaneous and wounding is done one-by-one.

DR is not saying that the Priest is "alive" for the whole Shooting phase, only for the entirety of the given units firing.

As soon as he is reduced to 0 wounds, he is removed as a casualty and cannot be measured to.

He might be alive, but cannot be measured to.

The answer is very easy. Don't leave the priest out on his own at the front.

 liturgies of blood wrote:
The answer is very easy. Don't leave the priest out on his own at the front.

Indeed. Though with a 2+ LoS! there's little reason to be worried.

 Kevin949 wrote:
Ok, so they all fire at the same time. They don't all wound at the same time though as evidenced by the sub-steps you take during the allocation process. Either way, the moment a model is removed from play as a casualty it is just that, and no where does it say to keep their rules in play for the whole shooting phase or to count them as still around or so on. So when you show me that you can draw range for this ability on a priest that is removed from play as a casualty then I'll grant your point. Until then, shooting is doing simultaneous and wounding is done one-by-one.

If they all shoot at the same time, then the whole shooting process must be resolved as if everything happens at the same time.

Wound allocation is on a model by model basis, but as "all of the models in the unit fire at the same time" P.13 then woulds will be suffered at the same time, even though they are allocated model by model.

 DeathReaper wrote:

 Kevin949 wrote:
Ok, so they all fire at the same time. They don't all wound at the same time though as evidenced by the sub-steps you take during the allocation process. Either way, the moment a model is removed from play as a casualty it is just that, and no where does it say to keep their rules in play for the whole shooting phase or to count them as still around or so on. So when you show me that you can draw range for this ability on a priest that is removed from play as a casualty then I'll grant your point. Until then, shooting is doing simultaneous and wounding is done one-by-one.

If they all shoot at the same time, then the whole shooting process must be resolved as if everything happens at the same time.

Wound allocation is on a model by model basis, but as "all of the models in the unit fire at the same time" P.13 then woulds will be suffered at the same time, even though they are allocated model by model.

Why must it? You saying it must doesn't mean that's how it is. Wounds were always allocated model-by-model but now they are specifically taken one at a time.

It must because of the rules quotes I provided earlier that the passages equate fire to the shooting process/shooting sequence.

 DeathReaper wrote:
It must because of the rules quotes I provided earlier that the passages equate fire to the shooting process/shooting sequence.

Sure...all the way up to step 5. The rules you quoted simply say "all the models fire at the same time, regardless to if the dice are rolled together or not." And that's it. It equates nothing to the "shooting process/sequence" other than the to-hit and to-wound rolls are rolled together (respectively).

If allocating and removal was under the same process then they would not have gone out of their way to specify "one at a time" in so many different areas, while only mentioning "all models fire at the same time" just once.

"you must complete all the firing by one unit before you move on to the next." P.12

"all of the models in the unit fire at the same time" P.13

Fire = the unit's firing= the shooting sequence

 DeathReaper wrote:
"you must complete all the firing by one unit before you move on to the next." P.12

"all of the models in the unit fire at the same time" P.13

Fire = the unit's firing= the shooting sequence

To avoid a circular argument at this point I'll simply say "Nope."

To which I'm sure you'll say "Yup."

So there you go.

What rules quotes do you have to back you up?

I went trawling though the FAQs to see if I could find a ruling that helps to clarify and frankly nothing was particularly helpful. The closest is from the marine codex

Q. At what point does a model need to be in range of Pedro Kantor in order to gain the bonuses of the Inspiring Presence special rule? (p90)
A: When the model makes its close combat attacks.

So does this mean the troops get the benefit of the chalice when the opponent makes his shooting attack? Or when Wounds are allocated?

Personally, I'm in the shooting and wounds are simultaneous camp, and if a model is in range of the chalice when the shots are taken, he gets the benefit.

If an IC is fearless and joins a non-fearless unit it grants fearless. If the unit loses a combat and the fearless model was killed in it then they do not have fearless even though the leadership check was the result of the same combat.

Basically what I am saying is that when the model who grants FNP is killed there is no longer anything granting it.

You have to assign wounds 1 at a time and resolve them. I feel like this is about 5th ed where wounds were rolled and you decided who took them. Its not like that. Your unit shoots at the same time so you dont kill the closet model and basically waste your units shots as now people arent in range. Not for the purposes of wound allocation.

Shoot the model with the chalice, he dies, noone get FnP. Just like my fearless example. They dont have fearless when the model is killed who granted it. Even though its the result of the same combat.

Does that make any sense?

The leadership test is a different step, so of course they wouldn't have fearless.
The relevant discussion is things that happen at the same step - the FnP giver dying and then does the rest of the squad have FnP still.

Same combat is irrelevant. Same combat resolution step is relevant. Come back with a relevant example please.

I'm not leaning toward one side or the other yet, I just like to see relevant examples.

rigeld2 wrote:
The leadership test is a different step, so of course they wouldn't have fearless.
The relevant discussion is things that happen at the same step - the FnP giver dying and then does the rest of the squad have FnP still.

Same combat is irrelevant. Same combat resolution step is relevant. Come back with a relevant example please.

I'm not leaning toward one side or the other yet, I just like to see relevant examples.

Your missing my point. Its not a different step. Wound allocation IS a different step than shooting the weapon them selves. You allocate to the closest, then take applicable saves, then rinse and repeat. They do not happen at the same time. Read what I wrote instead of making some "smart" response.

Please post relevant information if you gonna post dont just try to insult other peoples posts.

 Icelord wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
The leadership test is a different step, so of course they wouldn't have fearless.
The relevant discussion is things that happen at the same step - the FnP giver dying and then does the rest of the squad have FnP still.

Same combat is irrelevant. Same combat resolution step is relevant. Come back with a relevant example please.

I'm not leaning toward one side or the other yet, I just like to see relevant examples.

Your missing my point. Its not a different step. Wound allocation IS a different step than shooting the weapon them selves. You allocate to the closest, then take applicable saves, then rinse and repeat. They do not happen at the same time. Read what I wrote instead of making some "smart" response.

Please post relevant information if you gonna post dont just try to insult other peoples posts.

Your example was a different step. Yes, wound allocation is a different step from rolling to hit - an irrelevant point because I never said they were the same. You wrote an example of a Fearless model dying and then the unit not being Fearless during the morale test. Please defend the relevance of that example is you're so sure it was relevant.

Allocating wounds is done individually, but its all part of the same step. Relevant examples should all happen in one step.

 Icelord wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
The leadership test is a different step, so of course they wouldn't have fearless.
The relevant discussion is things that happen at the same step - the FnP giver dying and then does the rest of the squad have FnP still.

Same combat is irrelevant. Same combat resolution step is relevant. Come back with a relevant example please.

I'm not leaning toward one side or the other yet, I just like to see relevant examples.

Your missing my point. Its not a different step. Wound allocation IS a different step than shooting the weapon them selves. You allocate to the closest, then take applicable saves, then rinse and repeat. They do not happen at the same time. Read what I wrote instead of making some "smart" response.

Please post relevant information if you gonna post dont just try to insult other peoples posts.

A relative example would be if my assault squad and sanguinary priest charge a unit of gaunts. When the gaunts hit back I have to make lots of saves. Assuming there are only 3 models in b2b with gaunts, 2 marines and the priest. I have to put wounds on the b2b models first, when I loose the priest do I get FNP rolls on the rest of the wounds.

 liturgies of blood wrote:

 Icelord wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
The leadership test is a different step, so of course they wouldn't have fearless.
The relevant discussion is things that happen at the same step - the FnP giver dying and then does the rest of the squad have FnP still.

Same combat is irrelevant. Same combat resolution step is relevant. Come back with a relevant example please.

I'm not leaning toward one side or the other yet, I just like to see relevant examples.

Your missing my point. Its not a different step. Wound allocation IS a different step than shooting the weapon them selves. You allocate to the closest, then take applicable saves, then rinse and repeat. They do not happen at the same time. Read what I wrote instead of making some "smart" response.

Please post relevant information if you gonna post dont just try to insult other peoples posts.

A relative example would be if my assault squad and sanguinary priest charge a unit of gaunts. When the gaunts hit back I have to make lots of saves. Assuming there are only 3 models in b2b with gaunts, 2 marines and the priest. I have to put wounds on the b2b models first, when I loose the priest do I get FNP rolls on the rest of the wounds.

I think it is the same debate. And yes, I would argue that all models within 6" (or whatever the distance is) of the chalice when the gaunts attack get FNP, regardless of whether the priest dies from a wound in that same attack.

 DeathReaper wrote:
What rules quotes do you have to back you up?

Page 15, lower right, mixed wounds. Each group is resolved separately. Resolved includes removing as a casualty.

Also...everything else I've mentioned in this thread.

Blood Chalice: All friendly units within 6" are subject to the Furious Charge and Feel No Pain special rules.

So, shooting is all done simultaneously. Hooray. They got some wounds.

Now we move to allocating. Allocate to the Priest first since he's closest. He dies a horrible death and is removed as a casualty.

We now move to allocating the remainder of the wounds, which are done separately.

Can't check for FNP now because we are unable to draw range from the Priest because he is not on the table.

No more FNP conveyed to the remaining models, sadfaces all around.

At least this is how my group plays it. Next time, position the IC better and don't fail your LOS.

 Kevin949 wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
What rules quotes do you have to back you up?

Page 15, lower right, mixed wounds. Each group is resolved separately. Resolved includes removing as a casualty.

Also...everything else I've mentioned in this thread.

That is for mixed wounds...

 DeathReaper wrote:

 Kevin949 wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
What rules quotes do you have to back you up?

Page 15, lower right, mixed wounds. Each group is resolved separately. Resolved includes removing as a casualty.

Also...everything else I've mentioned in this thread.

That is for mixed wounds...

The OP's question is in reference to mixed wounds. 1 from Melta and 4 from Bolters right?

NickTheButcher wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

 Kevin949 wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
What rules quotes do you have to back you up?

Page 15, lower right, mixed wounds. Each group is resolved separately. Resolved includes removing as a casualty.

Also...everything else I've mentioned in this thread.

That is for mixed wounds...

The OP's question is in reference to mixed wounds. 1 from Melta and 4 from Bolters right?

Indeed, that is why I've been answering as such.

I still feel though that even if it was shooting from a unit that did not have mixed wound pools, I.E. all bolters, the priest would still stop providing his benefit when he is removed as a casualty. Mainly on the precedent that special rules cannot be in play when a model is removed from, or not in, play.

And all shooting from a single unit happens at the same time.

The same reason you can not explode a vehicle with the meltagun, and kill the passengers with bolters from the same unit.

 DeathReaper wrote:
And all shooting from a single unit happens at the same time.

The same reason you can not explode a vehicle with the meltagun, and kill the passengers with bolters from the same unit.

That's actually an entirely different situation involving two "separate" units. Hardly a valid comparison, in my book.

 DeathReaper wrote:
And all shooting from a single unit happens at the same time.

The same reason you can not explode a vehicle with the meltagun, and kill the passengers with bolters from the same unit.

So if there was a Lascannon and a melta that shot the vehicle, both hit and both penetrated -- do you roll each vehicle damage chart separately or at the same time? and if both cause explodes, does it explode twice since it's all done at the same time and would mean that they would be resolved before the model is removed?

 NickTheButcher wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
And all shooting from a single unit happens at the same time.

The same reason you can not explode a vehicle with the meltagun, and kill the passengers with bolters from the same unit.

So if there was a Lascannon and a melta that shot the vehicle, both hit and both penetrated -- do you roll each vehicle damage chart separately or at the same time? and if both cause explodes, does it explode twice since it's all done at the same time and would mean that they would be resolved before the model is removed?

You can only explode a vehicle once, same as if you shot a long IG Vet with a melta and a Las and scored two wounds. Does he die? or does he die twice

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:

 NickTheButcher wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
And all shooting from a single unit happens at the same time.

The same reason you can not explode a vehicle with the meltagun, and kill the passengers with bolters from the same unit.

So if there was a Lascannon and a melta that shot the vehicle, both hit and both penetrated -- do you roll each vehicle damage chart separately or at the same time? and if both cause explodes, does it explode twice since it's all done at the same time and would mean that they would be resolved before the model is removed?

You can only explode a vehicle once, same as if you shot a long IG Vet with a melta and a Las and scored two wounds. Does he die? or does he die twice

Good point. So, if we get a wrecked and explodes result, which one actually happens if it's all done at the same time? Can a wreck explode? Or do *both* actually happen?

The explodes happens, as all firing happens at the same time. The wrecked result only stands if the vehicle does not explode.

 DeathReaper wrote:
The explodes happens, as all firing happens at the same time. The wrecked result only stands if the vehicle does not explode.

I'm not arguing this, but just for confirmation sake, where do the rules specify which result you have to take? Why wouldn't the wrecked result prevent the explodes result? (I don't have my rulebook with me, so I can't look for anything that says a wreck can explode, nor anything that tells me that I would have to take the explodes result instead).

I think what you are saying is that essentially, both happen right? Just seems awkward for some reason

 DeathReaper wrote:

 Kevin949 wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
What rules quotes do you have to back you up?

Page 15, lower right, mixed wounds. Each group is resolved separately. Resolved includes removing as a casualty.

Also...everything else I've mentioned in this thread.

That is for mixed wounds...

GW FAQ:

Page 35 – Special Rules, Feel No Pain.
Add the following paragraph “If one or more models in a unit
have the Feel No Pain special rule then the Mixed Saves
method of Wound allocation should always be used for
allocating Wounds and removing casualties from that unit; Feel
No Pain rolls should be individually made after each failed
save.”

 DeathReaper wrote:
Why wouldn't it?

If the shooting happens at the same time, then the whole shooting process must happen at the same time.

Lascannon laser is faster than a bolter round?

I'm going to say, if the shots all came from 1 squad, they all resolve at the same time.
This is why you can't pop a transport and kill the passengers from a single squad firing.

-Matt

HawaiiMatt wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
Why wouldn't it?

If the shooting happens at the same time, then the whole shooting process must happen at the same time.

Lascannon laser is faster than a bolter round?

I'm going to say, if the shots all came from 1 squad, they all resolve at the same time.
This is why you can't pop a transport and kill the passengers from a single squad firing.

-Matt

Only if you want it to be, there must be a turbo setting on the lascannons or meltas weapons on some peoples guns given by the responces on this thread.

 y0disisray wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

 Kevin949 wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
What rules quotes do you have to back you up?

Page 15, lower right, mixed wounds. Each group is resolved separately. Resolved includes removing as a casualty.

Also...everything else I've mentioned in this thread.

That is for mixed wounds...

GW FAQ:
Page 35 – Special Rules, Feel No Pain.
Add the following paragraph “If one or more models in a unit
have the Feel No Pain special rule then the Mixed Saves
method of Wound allocation should always be used for
allocating Wounds and removing casualties from that unit; Feel
No Pain rolls should be individually made after each failed
save.”

This. When FNP is involved you have to use the mixed wounds method, which is model by model. I concur that as soon as he dies his benefit no longer applies. Remember that for radius effects like this, you check range at the time the benefit is used. Which is now, under the 6th ed rules, when that individual model fails his armor save. If the Sang Priest is the 3rd guy in line, and dies, the 4th guy in line won’t check to see if he still has FNP until HE fails a save. By which point (assuming there’s no other Priest in range of his unit), he longer has FNP.

So keep your sang priest in the back, and watch out for attacks from unexpected angles! Thankfully the priest (except for the one in Honor Guard squads) is an IC, so gets 2+ Look Out Sir.

All firing happens at the same time, so the shooting process happens at the same time, so you get to take a FNP from every wound caused by the shooting unit even if the priest died in that shooting attack.

I disagree. Just because all models fire at the same time does not mean that all steps of a unit shooting can be considered simultaneous anymore. You're still thinking 5th edition-style wound resolution and casualty removal; 6th is much more sequential.

Not at all. The 6th ed rules state that all shooting is simultaneous.

By saying that, it would include every part of any given unit's shooting attack.

 DeathReaper wrote:
Not at all. The 6th ed rules state that all shooting is simultaneous.

By saying that, it would include every part of any given unit's shooting attack.

Except that is not true, because you are told to apply wounds from the wound pool until each model dies. If it is simultaneously applied you would be unable to do that

Resolving wounds must be sequential.

nosferatu1001 wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
Not at all. The 6th ed rules state that all shooting is simultaneous.

By saying that, it would include every part of any given unit's shooting attack.

Except that is not true, because you are told to apply wounds from the wound pool until each model dies. If it is simultaneously applied you would be unable to do that

Resolving wounds must be sequential.

we have to do the application of wounds sequentially, however all shooting is still simultaneous.

Just because we roll the dice at a different time does not revoke the simultaneousness of that units shooting.

 DeathReaper wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
Not at all. The 6th ed rules state that all shooting is simultaneous.

By saying that, it would include every part of any given unit's shooting attack.

Except that is not true, because you are told to apply wounds from the wound pool until each model dies. If it is simultaneously applied you would be unable to do that

Resolving wounds must be sequential.

we have to do the application of wounds sequentially, however all shooting is still simultaneous.

Just because we roll the dice at a different time does not revoke the simultaneousness of that units shooting.

That's actually exactly what it does, even evidenced by the rules. If they had wanted it to stay the same way as 5th edition they would have written it the same way as it was in 5th edition. In 5th you allocated everything before rolling any saves. That's just simply not how it is done anymore.

And none of those rules revoke the 'Shooting is simultaneous' clause in the shooting rules.

 DeathReaper wrote:
And none of those rules revoke the 'Shooting is simultaneous' clause in the shooting rules.

Ok, no one has said shooting isn't simultaneous. Wound resolution is not. Shooting is, wounding isn't. Move on from this, they are not the same thing and you seem to think they are.

Wound resolution is a part of that unit's shooting, and thus simultaneous.

 DeathReaper wrote:
Wound resolution is a part of that unit's shooting, and thus simultaneous.

No, wound resolution is part of the shooting sequence, it is not part of "shooting". Shooting is only determined when you figure which models can fire and rolling to-hit.

The shooting sequence is how you determine what happens when the unit is shooting.

It is all a part of that unit's shooting.

 DeathReaper wrote:
The shooting sequence is how you determine what happens when the unit is shooting.

It is all a part of that unit's shooting.

Indeed, but the only place that mentions things being "simultaneous" is rolling to-hit. Rolling to-wound has it's own set of rules and timing.

There is no "all shooting is simultaneous" clause, per se. The shooting phase resolves sequentially, for the most part. If one unit blows up a transport, for example, another unit can shoot at the now-disembarked former occupants, for example.

The remaining rule in the 6th ed rules about simultaneity of shooting is under Which Models Can Fire?, on page 13. After explaining that some models may choose not to fire, it explains that "This must be declared before rolling To Hit, as all of the models in the unit fire at the same time."

I can see where Death Reaper's coming from in interpreting "fire" to mean "completely resolve their shooting attacks", but I don't think that's compatible with the 6th ed wound allocation and casualty removal procedures, which are very clearly sequential. Rolling To Hit is simultaneous, as made clear under Which Models Can Fire?, but everything on page 15, Allocate Wounds & Remove Casualites, lays out a sequential procedure under which you allocate and resolve wounds one at a time on one model at a time, where one model is dead and removed before the second model ever gets/has to make a save.

The time at which a model uses Feel No Pain is when IT fails a save. And per the Blood Angels FAQ, that is the moment at which you check whether the Chalice is in range to affect that model.

What else could fire mean, if not resolve that unit's shooting attack?

If this were the assault phase would you rule it differently?

Say at I5 the enemy attacks and the first wound from the wound pool is a precise strike that targets the Sang Priest. he fails a look out sir, and fails his armor save, now the other wounds from that initiative 5 are allocated and rolled for, do the subsequent models get the benefit of FNP?

At this point I don't think they would, no. I think that's part of the big change from 5th ed to 6th ed style wound allocation and resolution.

Even though the Assault rules say "If both sides have models with the same Initiative, their attacks are made simultaneously"

So we know all attacks at any given initiative are made simultaneously. Attacks are the process of rolling to hit/wound etc until the wound pool is empty.

The whole process is worked out at the same time as far as the rules are concerned.

 DeathReaper wrote:
Attacks are the process of rolling to hit/wound etc until the wound pool is empty.

You keep saying that. Since you continuously assert that, you obviously have rules to cite.

"If both sides have models with the same Initiative, their attacks are made simultaneously" P. 23

"Dead Before Striking: If a model becomes a casualty before its Initiative step, it cannot strike back. When striking blows simultaneously, you may find it more convenient to resolve one side's Attacks and simply turn the dead models around to remind you that they have yet to attack back." P. 26

Neither of those quotes assert that an "attack" is the entirety of the rolling to hit, wound, etc process.

rigeld2 wrote:
Neither of those quotes assert that an "attack" is the entirety of the rolling to hit, wound, etc process.

"they have yet to attack back." This shows that an "attack" is the entirety of the rolling to hit, wound, etc process, as models still need to resolve the whole process of making their attacks, which could cause casualties on the opponents side.

It also shows that the whole process is resolved simultaneously, because "When striking blows simultaneously, you may find it more convenient to resolve one side's Attacks and simply turn the dead models around to remind you that they have yet to attack back." P. 26

Plus we know what simultaneously means, so everything happens at any given initiative at the same time.

Also the assault phase sections details what is involved with a model making its attacks, note how the process details "the entirety of the rolling to hit, wound, etc process."