Well my local flgs has been playing this way for a while now, and i'm not so sure it's correct.

a flamer unit has done it's duty and is out in the open, and a hive tyrant is staring them down. Right next to the hive tyrant are a unit that has almost been wiped out of three termagaunts. All claims that this guy has made have been that he can choose which unit is charging first, and my flamer unit can only overwatch against them and not the hive tyrant.

He claims that once they make the charge with his gaunts, the flamer unit can't overwatch because they are locked in combat. But i believe that the book states something like they are only locked in combat at the start of their initiative step, and can overwatch against the hive tyrant.

Let me know what you guys think,
Thisisnotpancho

Flamers may ovrrwatch with the Wall of Death rile. Basically each flamer gets D3 hits for overwatch.

It confused me too...

 SoloFalcon1138 wrote:
Flamers may ovrrwatch with the Wall of Death rile. Basically each flamer gets D3 hits for overwatch.

It confused me too...

Sorry thats not what I am thinking he is asking.

Your friend is correct. When he declares a charge you must declare overwatch or not. If you choose to let the gaunts in without targeting them then you can not target the hive tyrant as they are already in combat and therefore may not shoot. You work out charges one at a time. Sorry.

Yeah. He is cheesing you but thats how it works.

 Vindicare-Obsession wrote:
Yeah. He is cheesing you but thats how it works.

Basic tactics is cheese now yay!

 Vindicare-Obsession wrote:
Yeah. He is cheesing you but thats how it works.

No he's not, he's following the rules. It isn't anywhere close to cheese, as the rulebook practically hands out this strategy to players like it's a plate of cookies.

Besides, what's wrong with a Hive Tyrant forcing gaunts to charge in as a distraction?

Well if you look at the rules for CC you will see that you are not locked in combat until the Fight Sub-Phase, so you can overwatch against any unit that charges you.

Page 23 under who can fight.

It's Schrodengers Assault. Models are and are not locked in combat. You just don't know which until the start of the Fight sub-phase.

So, the line on page 23 that says "units that have one or more models in base contact with enemies are locked in combat." doesn't mean what it says?

Ya, I guess it is under fight sub-phase, but that seems a bit more all-inclusive than it's interpreted as. *Shrug*

I think the only way to get overwatch on the hive tyrant would be to decline overwatch on the gaunts, and hope for a crappy Charge Range roll that would bring them up short - their Charge fails, the tyrant declares a charge, and you now overwatch him.

If the gaunts' charge succeeds, you are locked in combat and cannot overwatch any more.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Even though locked in combat is defined in Fight Sub-Phase, it is telling us that units with at least one model in b2b is LiC. After the charge move you are in b2b, therefore LiC.

 Kevin949 wrote:
So, the line on page 23 that says "units that have one or more models in base contact with enemies are locked in combat." doesn't mean what it says?

Ya, I guess it is under fight sub-phase, but that seems a bit more all-inclusive than it's interpreted as. *Shrug*

If that applied outisde of the first fight subhase, as soon as one model reaches assault, you can no longer move ANY model in the unit, as the unit is not making a Pile In move - the only type of move allowed when locked

This amply disproves that you become locked immediately, and thus only become locked at the fight subphase

It's only engaged in combat at the start of its initiative step

So right after the combat is over, i.e. the ensuing movement phase of the next player, then models are no longer locked in combat and can move freely since they are no longer in the fight subphase?

nosferatu1001 wrote:

 Kevin949 wrote:
So, the line on page 23 that says "units that have one or more models in base contact with enemies are locked in combat." doesn't mean what it says?

Ya, I guess it is under fight sub-phase, but that seems a bit more all-inclusive than it's interpreted as. *Shrug*

If that applied outisde of the first fight subhase, as soon as one model reaches assault, you can no longer move ANY model in the unit, as the unit is not making a Pile In move - the only type of move allowed when locked

This amply disproves that you become locked immediately, and thus only become locked at the fight subphase

So does this mean that it is OK to decline Overwatch on the first unit that charges me, and save it up for the second? I thought that was not allowed.

You are never forced to Overwatch - it's always an option.
It's just a gamble to not take it on the first unit that charges.

I know that, but if I REALLY wanted to Overwatch the 2nd unit am allowed to do so, even though the first unit has charged and is now in b2b contact with me?

[Editted for grammar]

40k-noob wrote:
So right after the combat is over, i.e. the ensuing movement phase of the next player, then models are no longer locked in combat and can move freely since they are no longer in the fight subphase?

No, as "units that have one or more models in base contact with enemies are locked in combat."

So you are still locked in combat on a subsequent turn.

The reason you are not locked until the Flight Sub-Phase is because you would have to stop moving as soon as the initial charger reaches base contact. Which of course breaks rules. and we should strive to "Break no rule"

Except the rules very specifically allow for moving your entire unit when charging.... in fact, they *require* it.

coredump wrote:
Except the rules very specifically allow for moving your entire unit when charging.... in fact, they *require* it.

Yeah, I'm not quite sure where we're going with the whole locked-in-combat argument, except to possibly to get to the position where we allow the Overwatching of a 2nd unit after a 1st unit has already charged and engaged us (in the same Charge sub-phase). I thought that was not allowed, but I'm definitely open to be convinced I'm wrong.

Snapshot wrote:

Yeah, I'm not quite sure where we're going with the whole locked-in-combat argument, except to possibly to get to the position where we allow the Overwatching of a 2nd unit after a 1st unit has already charged and engaged us (in the same Charge sub-phase). I thought that was not allowed, but I'm definitely open to be convinced I'm wrong.

There are people who are claiming that merely having models in base contact with enemy models is enough to say that the unit is locked in combat. This is to say that units who are base to base cannot fire overwatch, because you cannot fire overwatch if you are locked in combat. The direction that this discussion is heading is that being in "base to base" and being "locked in combat" are not necessarily the same thing, because units aren't "locked in combat" until the Fight Sub-Phase which takes place AFTER all charging units have been moved. This means that if one unit successfully charges an enemy unit and that enemy unit does NOT fire overwatch, it is free to fire overwatch against any other units that charge it that turn because it is NOT locked in combat until after all the charging units have been moved and the Fight Sub-Phase is reached, regardless of how many models are in base to base.

At least, this is my understanding of the debate.

I agree with the unit being able to fire at one of whichever units charge it. It prevents a player slamming 2 gaunts into a HB LF squad to prevent the tyrant that was about to slam into them having to take any hits.

 liturgies of blood wrote:
I agree with the unit being able to fire at one of whichever units charge it. It prevents a player slamming 2 gaunts into a HB LF squad to prevent the tyrant that was about to slam into them having to take any hits.

... It prevents tactics?

rigeld2 wrote:

 liturgies of blood wrote:
I agree with the unit being able to fire at one of whichever units charge it. It prevents a player slamming 2 gaunts into a HB LF squad to prevent the tyrant that was about to slam into them having to take any hits.

... It prevents tactics?

No, rather It allows tactics on both sides.

Attacker decides who to assault with first. Defender decides who to fire overwatch on. Both are tactics, decisions to be made that may affect the outcome of a battle.

coredump wrote:
Except the rules very specifically allow for moving your entire unit when charging.... in fact, they *require* it.

And "Can't move", overrides "Must move".

Except that "can't move" is from a general rule for being 'locked' and "must move" is from a specific rule for being locked while charging.


If a Pile In can over-ride the 'locked' restriction, there is no reason why a Charge cannot.

Pile-in overrides the "cannot move" by the sole virtue of being given specific permission to make said moves when locked in combat.

 DeathReaper wrote:

coredump wrote:
Except the rules very specifically allow for moving your entire unit when charging.... in fact, they *require* it.

And "Can't move", overrides "Must move".

I disagree.

For example, a unit "can't" disembark from a transport if it move more than 6" however if that transport is wrecked by the enemy shooting the unit "Must" disembark.

Can't in it of itself does not override Must. Context is what matters.

40k-noob wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

coredump wrote:
Except the rules very specifically allow for moving your entire unit when charging.... in fact, they *require* it.

And "Can't move", overrides "Must move".

I disagree.

For example, a unit "can't" disembark from a transport if it move more than 6" however if that transport is wrecked by the enemy shooting the unit "Must" disembark.

Can't in it of itself does not override Must. Context is what matters.

Your example is not relevant, as the vehicle can not move in your opponents phase.

You can't disembark in your opponents phase either, that is why there is a specific exception allowing the disembark if your vehicle is wrecked by enemy shooting.

Moving in for assault is specified that it can not be done if locked in combat. P.20 tells us this.

 DeathReaper wrote:
Moving in for assault is specified that it can not be done if locked in combat. P.20 tells us this.

Absolutely false.

Page 20 prevents a unit that is locked in combat from declaring a charge.

BRB Page 20 wrote:Some units are disallowed from charging. Common reasons a
unit is not allowed to declare a charge include:
•The unit is already locked in close combat (see page 23)

Once you're past that you have no such restriction.

I see the argument on both sides, and yes you move one then declair with the next, however this is all appening with split second moves and such though you do it one at a time, for the sanity of the game. If you send in a sqaud and I elect to not overwath them but save it for the second potential charger who is coming at the same time I get to.

Remeber theres a rule that say you may overwatch only once per squad per assault phase. Why make this distinction if you could only do it on the initial unit that moves. Its a choice for both player, its tactics and whats lame is sending in a feint squad only to save your best. Thats cheesy. I tell who Im charging and let my opponent choose since it makes for a funner game. However I like dice rolling and not too much gak going on.

rigeld2 wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
Moving in for assault is specified that it can not be done if locked in combat. P.20 tells us this.

Absolutely false.

Page 20 prevents a unit that is locked in combat from declaring a charge.

BRB Page 20 wrote:Some units are disallowed from charging. Common reasons a
unit is not allowed to declare a charge include:
•The unit is already locked in close combat (see page 23)

Once you're past that you have no such restriction.

Declaring a charge can not be done whilst locked in combat.

Declaring a charge involves the subsequent charge move.

 DeathReaper wrote:
Declaring a charge can not be done whilst locked in combat.

Declaring a charge involves the subsequent charge move.

Not true.
Declaring a charge is step 1 in the Charge Sub-Phase. Step 4 is the Charge Move. edit: page 20

rigeld2 wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
Declaring a charge can not be done whilst locked in combat.

Declaring a charge involves the subsequent charge move.

Not true.
Declaring a charge is step 1 in the Charge Sub-Phase. Step 4 is the Charge Move. edit: page 20

It is true, it is a Charge Sub-Phase, if you do not declare a charge you can not move charging models.

 DeathReaper wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
Declaring a charge can not be done whilst locked in combat.

Declaring a charge involves the subsequent charge move.

Not true.
Declaring a charge is step 1 in the Charge Sub-Phase. Step 4 is the Charge Move. edit: page 20

It is true, it is a Charge Sub-Phase, if you do not declare a charge you can not move charging models.

Right.
For this we'll assume that units lock as soon as one model is in base to base.
At the Declare Charge step, the unit is not locked. Agreed?
At the Resolve Overwatch step, the unit is not locked. Agreed?
At the Roll Charge Range step, the unit is not locked. Agreed?
At the start of the Charge Move step, the unit is not locked. Agreed?

If the unit doesn't become locked until after the Charge Move step begins it's well after the charge has been declared.
Your statement that "Declaring a charge involves the subsequent charge move." is demonstrably false, as I've shown.

Perhaps I should have said "Declaring a charge can not be done whilst locked in combat, and is one part of the Charge sub-phase that involves the subsequent charge move."

The point being the unit does not become locked until the fight sub-phase because you are not allowed to move, except for Pile In moves, while locked.

"While a unit is locked in combat, it may only make Pile In moves and cannot otherwise move or shoot." P.23

Cannot move means just that. nothing in the charge move section says you can move whilst locked in combat so you can not.

 DeathReaper wrote:
Perhaps I should have said "Declaring a charge can not be done whilst locked in combat, and is one part of the Charge sub-phase that involves the subsequent charge move."

So a completely irrelevant statement? Works for me. You brought up page 20, so I argued based on page 20.

The point being the unit does not become locked until the fight sub-phase because you are not allowed to move, except for Pile In moves, while locked.

"While a unit is locked in combat, it may only make Pile In moves and cannot otherwise move or shoot." P.23

Cannot move means just that. nothing in the charge move section says you can move whilst locked in combat so you can not.

Why are you interrupting the Charge Move (that is required) to check for locked status?

 DeathReaper wrote:

40k-noob wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

coredump wrote:
Except the rules very specifically allow for moving your entire unit when charging.... in fact, they *require* it.

And "Can't move", overrides "Must move".

I disagree.

For example, a unit "can't" disembark from a transport if it move more than 6" however if that transport is wrecked by the enemy shooting the unit "Must" disembark.

Can't in it of itself does not override Must. Context is what matters.

Your example is not relevant, as the vehicle can not move in your opponents phase.

You can't disembark in your opponents phase either, that is why there is a specific exception allowing the disembark if your vehicle is wrecked by enemy shooting.

Moving in for assault is specified that it can not be done if locked in combat. P.20 tells us this.

You just made my point for me.

Can't does not override Must.

Again it is the context that matters.

It is restriction overrides permission in general. More specific permissions override general restrictions but specific restrictions override all.

Eg.
Unit's may declare a charge in the assault phase.
Unit's that have exited a transport may not assault that turn.
Unit's that have exited a transport with an assault ramp may charge in the same turn they exited the transport.
Unit's may not assault after exiting a transport that has arrived by DS.
BA terminators in a Stormraven that arrives by DS may not assault that turn due to not being able to Assault after DS.
They have a specific allowance to assault from a SR but not in the specific situation of the turn they DS.

Not sure how this is even still an issue. If a unit makes it into b2b contact with you, you are locked in combat and can't make anymore overwatch moves.

This whole 'locked in combat starts during the fight sub-phase' business makes absolutely no sense, and isn't even supported in the rules.

You have to make a choice, overwatch the gants because they might be the only units you CAN overwatch, or hope they roll poorly enough on their charge range that you can then overwatch the next unit that charges.

 smokeh wrote:
Not sure how this is even still an issue. If a unit makes it into b2b contact with you, you are locked in combat and can't make anymore overwatch moves.

This whole 'locked in combat starts during the fight sub-phase' business makes absolutely no sense, and isn't even supported in the rules.

You have to make a choice, overwatch the gants because they might be the only units you CAN overwatch, or hope they roll poorly enough on their charge range that you can then overwatch the next unit that charges.

If you are locked in combat " If a unit makes it into b2b contact with you" then no models may move after the first model makes base contact, as "While a unit is locked in combat, it may only make Pile In moves and cannot otherwise move.."

So if you are locked as soon as you are in Base contact, you can not finish the charge move. This way breaks rules.

If reading the rules one way results in broken rules, then that is probably not the right way to read rules.

DeathReaper wrote:

 smokeh wrote:
Not sure how this is even still an issue. If a unit makes it into b2b contact with you, you are locked in combat and can't make anymore overwatch moves.

This whole 'locked in combat starts during the fight sub-phase' business makes absolutely no sense, and isn't even supported in the rules.

You have to make a choice, overwatch the gants because they might be the only units you CAN overwatch, or hope they roll poorly enough on their charge range that you can then overwatch the next unit that charges.

If you are locked in combat " If a unit makes it into b2b contact with you" then no models may move after the first model makes base contact, as "While a unit is locked in combat, it may only make Pile In moves and cannot otherwise move.."

So if you are locked as soon as you are in Base contact, you can not finish the charge move. This way breaks rules.

If reading the rules one way results in broken rules, then that is probably not the right way to read rules.

rigeld2 wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
Perhaps I should have said "Declaring a charge can not be done whilst locked in combat, and is one part of the Charge sub-phase that involves the subsequent charge move."

So a completely irrelevant statement? Works for me. You brought up page 20, so I argued based on page 20.

The point being the unit does not become locked until the fight sub-phase because you are not allowed to move, except for Pile In moves, while locked.

"While a unit is locked in combat, it may only make Pile In moves and cannot otherwise move or shoot." P.23

Cannot move means just that. nothing in the charge move section says you can move whilst locked in combat so you can not.

Why are you interrupting the Charge Move (that is required) to check for locked status?

Because the rules say we can not move whilst locked. (and the can not move whilst locked restriction does not give us a time to check, so this must be enforced at all times).

If models are locked when they are in base contact, then anytime models are in base contact they can not move.

 DeathReaper wrote:
Because the rules say we can not move whilst locked. (and the can not move whilst locked restriction does not give us a time to check, so this must be in forced at all times).

If models are locked when they are in base contact, then anytime models are in base contact they can not move.

Right. The models in base contact cannot move.

And then we read the locked rules and, we see that units are locked if they have one or more models in base contact. so no one may move.

"Units that have one or more models in base contact with enemies are locked in combat. While a unit is locked in combat, it may only make Pile In moves and cannot otherwise move or shoot." P.23

Yes, it can't move during it's movement phase. It says nothing about the charge move that brings them into b2b. Completely different moves. The rule you are quoting is telling you that being locked in combat means you can't move your unit, or shoot at other units, and that you are 'locked in combat'. It's not saying that once a unit hits b2b no one else in the unit can move.

Read it again.

"While a unit is locked in combat, it may only make Pile In moves and cannot otherwise move" P.23

"cannot otherwise move"

A charge move would be otherwise moving.

You are only allowed to make pile in moves.

You can not move in the movement phase, you can not run, and you can not make a charge move, as you are only allowed to make pile-in moves.

Right now the sub-debate is about whether "Charge moves" override "Locked" moves (for purposes of determining when "Locked" begins for the main debate).

If more specific rules override more general rules, how do we determine which of two conflicting rules is more specific, and which is more general?

I posit that the Charge move is more specific, because it refers directly to one sub-phase.
Under the heading "Move Initial Charger" on page 21, it specifically states that ""After moving the first model in the unit, you can move the others in any sequence you desire..". This line is very specific, because it only applies not only to one phase, but to one specific part of one specific sub-phase: the phase where you move the charging unit.
It applies to no other event or action a unit can do or take throughout all the rest of a game, except when it's moving toward a target it's charging.

Similarly, the definition of Locked in Combat only appears in one place in the entire book too.
However, Locked in Combat applies to the shooting phase as well; it is mere coincidence of editing and space-saving that it only appears in one place in the book. In fact, it applies to every other part of every other phase in the entire game, and so, I posit that it is the more general rule.
Note that the definition of "Locked in Combat" does not appear in the section that covers the Shooting phase at all! This will become important again later.

Therefore, the Charge move is possible because it is a very specific rule covering only one event. It is more specific, thus it can override the more general rule of Locked in Combat, and allow the rest of the unit to make Charge moves even after the Initial Charger has made base contact with an enemy.


Back to the main debate.
Though the Shooting phase section does not define the definition of "Locked in Combat", it still applies, because it's a very general rule that just happens to have its definition put on page 23. It is clearly a very general rule because it applies to the entirety of the game.
Thus, it follows that Overwatch shooting is also a type of shooting attack, subject to the same rules as the Shooting phase.

The specific placement of the Locked in Combat definition has no bearing on when a unit "becomes" Locked in Combat; the check is made at the particular instant any shooting attack (including Overwatch) is to be attempted. Any units in base contact, no shooting. Unless, of course, there is a more specific rule to override it (but there isn't).


This is all, of course, all just my interpretation of the state of things. I understand how owners of a shooting army have a vested interest in the other interpretation, and I have nothing against that.

I'm inclined to be changing my mind on the question of when a unit is considered locked in combat. The earliest reference I can find to it on p10, and they could have defined it here (or earlier) if they wanted to, but they didn't. More significantly, they could have said in the Charge Sub-phase that once a unit has charged and is in b2b it is LiC, but they didn't. I can only conclude that waiting to define it until the Fight Sub-phase was a deliberate choice.

So if charging units are not consider LiC until the Fight Sub-phase, it obviously means that a charged unit can decline Overwatch against one charger in the hope that he can Overwatch another. From the attacker's perspective, you don't have to tell your opponent which units are going to Charge until you do it, so he still has to guess (although in many situations it will be obvious).

- Snapshot

PS. I still have this nagging suspicion I saw something from GW (maybe a battle report in a WD mag) that said you can't do this, but I can't find it so I'm happy to go with LiC in the Fight sub-phase.

Just my 2 cents.

How we play at me lfgs.

The charge step, as stated, has multiple sub phases.

The first and most important for this is the declare charges. All units that wish to charge must declare so before any units can move on to rolling. So the termagaunts and the rtant each declare a charge. You then mist choose which unit to over watch. As we play you can only ow 1 unit.

Cyke wrote:
Right now the sub-debate is about whether "Charge moves" override "Locked" moves (for purposes of determining when "Locked" begins for the main debate).

If more specific rules override more general rules, how do we determine which of two conflicting rules is more specific, and which is more general?

I posit that the Charge move is more specific, because it refers directly to one sub-phase.

The locked rules seem more specific, since it only allows one type of move in one instance, pile in.

"While a unit is locked in combat, it may only make Pile In moves" P.23

Is the charge move a Pile in move?

Okay, I am confused as to how there is any confusion here.

So let me see if I have this straight.

You have a unit of a Hive Tyrant, and a squad of 'gaunts, both within potential charge range of the squad with the flamer.

The 'Nid player begins his assault phase.
He nominates a unit, the 'gaunts, and declares that they are charging the flamer squad.

The controller of the flamer squad then decides weather or not to overwatch the 'gaunts, since overwatch is optional.

I think everyone understands what happens if he does shoot at them, but why choose not to?

If you chose not to shoot at them, they charge you and MAY roll a high enough range roll to get in to assault.
If they don't, and the Tyrant charges, of course you can flamer overwatch him.

If they do, you are locked in combat by the 'gaunts, and CANNOT fire overwatch at the Tyrant, IF it chooses to charge.

The other reason overwatch is limited to one volley per turn is if you overwatch the assaulting unit to death, you can't overwatch the second charging unit as well.

The most funny part for the 'Nid player is to declare the 'gaunts, have the flamer decline to shoot them, and have the Tyrant charge someone else. No overwatch is fired because the Tyrant is scary.


Now, to clear a few things up.

1. There is NO such thing as an overwatch move. I don't know where the heck that came from, but overwatch is shooting, not moving.
2. If you declare and assault, and move the first model into B2B, that does not prevent the rest of his squad from moving to join him on the charge. The rules being cited are to keep a squad from running out of last turn's combat and into combat with a nearby squad that had not been involved. This is not well stated in the rules, but is OBVIOUS by there being step by step instructions for moving each model into combat from the same squad.
3. You cannot declare all your units that are charging at once, you must declare each one and them overwatch/roll charge range/move into assault and then declare the next unit that intends to assault. Basic order of operations from page 20.
4. Page 24 clarifies the general rule about what being locked in combat means; it does not mean that you become locked in combat at that point, and were in B2B and not LiC before.


Edited for punctuation.

 spycer wrote:
Okay, I am confused as to how there is any confusion here.

So let me see if I have this straight.

You have a unit of a Hive Tyrant, and a squad of 'gaunts, both within potential charge range of the squad with the flamer.

The 'Nid player begins his assault phase.
He nominates a unit, the 'gaunts, and declares that they are charging the flamer squad.

The controller of the flamer squad then decides weather or not to overwatch the 'gaunts, since overwatch is optional.

I think everyone understands what happens if he does shoot at them, but why choose not to?

Because the Tyrant may charge and you might want to shoot it instead of the gaunts.

 spycer wrote:

If you chose not to shoot at them, they charge you and MAY roll a high enough range roll to get in to assault.
If they don't, and the Tyrant charges, of course you can flamer overwatch him.

Even if they roll high enough you can Overwatch any one unit that charged on the same turn, as long as you are not locked in combat from a previous turn.

 spycer wrote:
If they do, you are locked in combat by the 'gaunts, and CANNOT fire overwatch at the Tyrant, IF it chooses to charge.

Not true, as they are not locked in combat until the Fight Sub-phase.

 spycer wrote:
The other reason overwatch is limited to one volley per turn is if you overwatch the assaulting unit to death, you can't overwatch the second charging unit as well.

Citation needed.

 spycer wrote:
Now, to clear a few things up.

1. There is NO such thing as an overwatch move. I don't know where the heck that came from, but overwatch is shooting, not moving.
2. If you declare and assault, and move the first model into B2B, that does not prevent the rest of his squad from moving to join him on the charge. The rules being cited are to keep a squad from running out of last turn's combat and into combat with a nearby squad that had not been involved. This is not well stated in the rules, but is OBVIOUS by there being step by step instructions for moving each model into combat from the same squad.
3. You cannot declare all your units that are charging at once, you must declare each one and them overwatch/roll charge range/move into assault and then declare the next unit that intends to assault. Basic order of operations from page 20.
4. Page 24 clarifies the general rule about what being locked in combat means; it does not mean that you become locked in combat at that point, and were in B2B and not LiC before.

1) Correct, not sure where smokeh came up with that one.
2) You are correct, but that is also the reason that the unit is not locked in combat until the Fight Sub-phase.
3) True, you declare chargers one at a time, and go through the 5 step process.
4) P.24 defines what Locked in combat means. it also describes this in the Fight Sub-phase, but it is not limited to the Fight Sub-phase, as you can be locked in combat in the movement and assault phases as well.

So as soon as a charging unit has a model in base contact Either:

A) That unit is not locked in combat until some later point so the rest of the charging unit is free to move the rest of the charging models.
Or
B) That unit is locked in combat as soon as that unit has "one or more models in base contact with enemies" and the charging unit is not free to move the rest of the charging models.

Option B breaks rules and If reading the rules one way results in broken rules, then that is probably not the right way to read rules, so we default to it being option A.

 spycer wrote:
If they do, you are locked in combat by the 'gaunts, and CANNOT fire overwatch at the Tyrant, IF it chooses to charge.


2. If you declare and assault, and move the first model into B2B, that does not prevent the rest of his squad from moving to join him on the charge.

So you are saying that a model can make a move (other than Pile-In) when the unit is locked in combat? Can you please give a page reference for that.

 DeathReaper wrote:
Well if you look at the rules for CC you will see that you are not locked in combat until the Fight Sub-Phase, so you can overwatch against any unit that charges you.

Page 23 under who can fight.

Must we start this thread again. How many pages did the last one go. Locked in combat is clearly spelled out and your just making up rules to justify your position. Once a unit charges successfully and is in BTB the unit is locked.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Happyjew wrote:

 spycer wrote:
If they do, you are locked in combat by the 'gaunts, and CANNOT fire overwatch at the Tyrant, IF it chooses to charge.


2. If you declare and assault, and move the first model into B2B, that does not prevent the rest of his squad from moving to join him on the charge.

So you are saying that a model can make a move (other than Pile-In) when the unit is locked in combat? Can you please give a page reference for that.

You jump on the specific > general rule bandwagon quickly but not that its used against you, you say it doesnt work?

Fragile wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
Well if you look at the rules for CC you will see that you are not locked in combat until the Fight Sub-Phase, so you can overwatch against any unit that charges you.

Page 23 under who can fight.

Must we start this thread again. How many pages did the last one go. Locked in combat is clearly spelled out and your just making up rules to justify your position. Once a unit charges successfully and is in BTB the unit is locked.

You are correct that "Locked in combat is clearly spelled out", but you are not correct that "your[sic] just making up rules to justify your position"

If this were true in the Charge Sub-phase "Once a unit charges successfully and is in BTB the unit is locked" then only the first model could make its charge move.

The last one went 2 or 3 pages, but we can let the thread die, I am fine with that.

Again, general rule "units locked in combat cannot move" vs specific rule about how to execute a charge. So specific it takes up the entire right column of page 21, as compared to your one sentence. Not to mention your taking a rule out of context and also applying a rule to a unit in mid action.

So again, once a unit is in BTB, per page 23, it is locked in combat.

Interesting that you see it as a general rule, when it says the only move they can make is pile in. It is very specific on what move you are allowed whilst in base contact.


Nothing in the charge move rules specifically over-rides the Locked rules.

Can't trumps must in this case.

Or they are not locked unitll the Fight Sub-phase.

As the first breaks the rules, and the second one does not, we should be inclined to use the one that does not break the rules.

Lungpickle wrote:
I see the argument on both sides, and yes you move one then declair with the next, however this is all appening with split second moves and such though you do it one at a time, for the sanity of the game. If you send in a sqaud and I elect to not overwath them but save it for the second potential charger who is coming at the same time I get to.

Remeber theres a rule that say you may overwatch only once per squad per assault phase. Why make this distinction if you could only do it on the initial unit that moves. Its a choice for both player, its tactics and whats lame is sending in a feint squad only to save your best. Thats cheesy. I tell who Im charging and let my opponent choose since it makes for a funner game. However I like dice rolling and not too much gak going on.

Why only over watch once? That rule has a use.
If I overwatch and kill the two gaunts, I could overwatch again and kill the tyrant. The once per squad prevents me from overwatching EVERY unit that charges.

-Matt

One of the arguments used to assert that a charging unit is not locked in combat until the Fight sub-phase is that said unit can't move when locked - as soon as the first charger is in b2b, moves aren't allowed (except for Pile-ins), ergo it cannot be locked.

I just checked, and p10 simply says that LiC units cannot move in the Movement Phase. It is self-evident that starting a Charge Move should not prevent the Charge Move from finishing.

I don't think that this argument can be used to strength the case that LiC only kicks in in the Fight sub-phase.

Then if you RAW, units with at least one model in b2b are Locked in Combat (it's definition is the Fight sub-phase carries no other meaning other than it is a handy place because we need to find out who can strike blows). Certainly, being LiC as soon as the first models charges in does not prevent the completion of the Charge Move.

This then leads to the first successful charge denying Overwatch against additional chargers, which is where this thread started.

Snapshot wrote:
It is self-evident that starting a Charge Move should not prevent the Charge Move from finishing.

That is RAI.

RAW they should be locked, unless there is a simple explanation like they do not get locked until the Fight Sub-phase.

Snapshot wrote:
I just checked, and p10 simply says that LiC units cannot move in the Movement Phase

Right, but P.10 only covers the movement phase, check P.23

"While a unit is locked in combat, it may only make Pile In moves" P.23

p21, 3rd para says a Charge Move uses the same rules as Movement...

The Movement rules deny movement to LiC units in the Movement Phase (p10)

...unless I missed something.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 DeathReaper wrote:

Snapshot wrote:
It is self-evident that starting a Charge Move should not prevent the Charge Move from finishing.

That is RAI.

RAW they should be locked, unless there is a simple explanation like they do not get locked until the Fight Sub-phase.

Snapshot wrote:
I just checked, and p10 simply says that LiC units cannot move in the Movement Phase

Right, but P.10 only covers the movement phase, check P.23

"While a unit is locked in combat, it may only make Pile In moves" P.23

You're right. I hate the rulesmiths at GW.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ok, let's say unit A charges in, followed closely behind by unit B. I decline Overwatch against A, and fire on B. Does B get a 5+ cover save because the Overwatch is going through A?

 DeathReaper wrote:
If this were true in the Charge Sub-phase "Once a unit charges successfully and is in BTB the unit is locked" then only the first model could make its charge move.

Why are you applying a check at the individual model step when the rule refers to the unit taking an action? It doesn't say individual models can't move the moment one of them is in base to base, it says units in base to base.

Arbitrarily forcing a check on the unit as a whole when one model touches a model instead of at the completion of the charge move (since it doesn't say to stop and check at the model step) has ridiculous effects and is clearly incorrect?

DR can you show me another example of a unit being permitted to do something, and then halfway through being denied and forced to stop?

 snooggums wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
If this were true in the Charge Sub-phase "Once a unit charges successfully and is in BTB the unit is locked" then only the first model could make its charge move.

Why are you applying a check at the individual model step when the rule refers to the unit taking an action? It doesn't say individual models can't move the moment one of them is in base to base, it says units in base to base.

Because the rules say we can not move whilst locked. (and the can not move whilst locked restriction does not give us a time to check, so this must be enforced at all times).

If models are locked when they are in base contact, then anytime models are in base contact they can not move.

The rules do not give a timeframe for when to check for locked so we must check at all times.

and P.23 says "Units that have one or more models in base contact with enemies are locked in combat" and when a unit is locked in combat it can not move except for pile in moves.

It doesn't say to stop and check before the Fight Sub-phase either. Arbitrarily forcing a check after the unit charges has no merit either.

Does the charging unit "have one or more models in base contact with enemies" when the first model reaches base contact?

If so then Either:
1)The unit is locked at that point because "Units that have one or more models in base contact with enemies are locked in combat"
Or
2) They are not locked until the Fight Sub-phase and they can continue their charge move.

O am inclined to go with 2 as it does not break the Charge move rules.

@Rig.
Wounding and models out of Line of Sight. you can score 10 wounds to a unit that has 10 models and no save of any kind, so 10 should die, but if 3 of those models are out of Line of Sight, you stop removing models, the wound pool empties, and three models live.

 DeathReaper wrote:

Snapshot wrote:
It is self-evident that starting a Charge Move should not prevent the Charge Move from finishing.

That is RAI.

RAW they should be locked, unless there is a simple explanation like they do not get locked until the Fight Sub-phase.

This is where your trying to create a rule.

Snapshot wrote:
I just checked, and p10 simply says that LiC units cannot move in the Movement Phase

Right, but P.10 only covers the movement phase, check P.23

"While a unit is locked in combat, it may only make Pile In moves" P.23

Again your ignoring all of pg 21.

"The charging unit now moves into close combat with the unit(s)"

"All of the models in a charging unit make their charge move" ... Notice is says ALL of the models must make their charge move?

"following the same rules as in the Movement phase, with the exception that they can be moved within l" of enemy models." The models are allowed to move within 1" of the enemy"

"After moving the first model in the unit, you can move the others in any sequence you desire" Specific permission to move other models AFTER the first model is LIC. Specific vs general. So specific, there are 3 more paragraphs telling you HOW you have to move each model.

"If you follow this sequence, you will end up with all the models in the charging unit in unit coherency, having engaged as many enemy models as possible with as many charging models as possible." Again, notice ALL the models have to be moved.


RAW is clear. Your single out of context sentence does not override the half page of instruction and permission to move a unit into BTB with an enemy.

 DeathReaper wrote:

@Rig.
Wounding and models out of Line of Sight. you can score 10 wounds to a unit that has 10 models and no save of any kind, so 10 should die, but if 3 of those models are out of Line of Sight, you stop removing models, the wound pool empties, and three models live.

Poor example.
Out of Sight has explicit rules requiring you to check before every allocated wound.
Find the same thing in the Charge Move rules.

 DeathReaper wrote:

@Rig.
Wounding and models out of Line of Sight. you can score 10 wounds to a unit that has 10 models and no save of any kind, so 10 should die, but if 3 of those models are out of Line of Sight, you stop removing models, the wound pool empties, and three models live.

That doesn't have anything to do with the order of operations, the three models who were out of sight were never eligible to be removed so they aren't.

A possible comparison to the current discussion would be fighting at initiative step, where combat ends if no one is eligible at a specific step. In that case, it clearly states that checking the end of combat is done at the initiative step, not at the end of combat. Since a charge move is a single action for the unit, the logical time to check whether the unit is in base to base is when the unit has completed an action, for example after the unit has finished their charge move since it does not specify a check at the individual model level.

That's the point I'm attempting to make - when setting up an interrupting action, they've spelled it out. There's no permission to interrupt the charge move.

Basically the "Locked in Combat" definition and the Charge Move instructions are in direct conflict.
We follow the Charge Move instructions because it is more specific; it applies only to the Charge Move action, in the Charge sub-phase, of the Assault Phase.
The "Locked in Combat" definition is more general because it applies to every action, in every sub-phase, of every phase.

There is no pattern to whether "can't" trumps "must" or vice versa. Examples both trumping either one, both ways around, have been given. The pattern is clear: the more specific rule trumps the more general rule.


So stop bringing up Charge Moves being impossible.. that's just stupid. The Locked in Combat/Overwatch debate is separate, both from a logical RAW perspective and a RAI perspective. Let's stick to that!

Can't Trumps must is a function of the permissive rule set.

The only thing that over-rides can't is a specific allowance that says it over rides the can't.

Like you can't assault the turn you arrive from reserve. (Exceptions are given specifically with Vanguard Veterans saying they can assault the turn they arrive from reserve, so that specific exception over-rides the can't assault, because it says they can assault on the turn they arrive.

Charge moves have no such language, and in fact you are restricted from charging when locked in assault.

I'd say the half page of Charge Move rules are a pretty "specific allowance" that overrides the general can't in LiC.

IF you prefer, we'll just say that Charge Moves are permitted because LiC is checked for on a unit level, rather than a model level. It is not checked for between the move of each of the models of the same unit during a Charge Move. I suppose this is similar to how squad coherency works, we only "interrupt" to check at the end of the entire unit's move, and not between each model's moves.
I'm fine with that then.

Back to topic? Or still more discussion of Charge Moves, while Overwatch/LiC falls by the wayside?

Cyke wrote:
I'd say the half page of Charge Move rules are a pretty "specific allowance" that overrides the general can't in LiC.

IF you prefer, we'll just say that Charge Moves are permitted because LiC is checked for on a unit level, rather than a model level. It is not checked for between the move of each of the models of the same unit during a Charge Move. I suppose this is similar to how squad coherency works, we only "interrupt" to check at the end of the entire unit's move, and not between each model's moves.
I'm fine with that then.

Back to topic? Or still more discussion of Charge Moves, while Overwatch/LiC falls by the wayside?

This has to do with the topic on hand. There are two stances:

One side claims that a unit is not locked in combat until the Fight sub-phase (until the combat is over). This allows models to complete their charge move, and the unit being charged to Overwatch any one of the charging units.
The other side claims that a unit is locked immediately as soon as a model is i base to base contact, but the models are allowed to make a non-legal move (as the only allowed move is Pile-In).

Cyke wrote:
I'd say the half page of Charge Move rules are a pretty "specific allowance" that overrides the general can't in LiC.

None of those rules in the Charge Move section specify that they over-ride the locked rules. As opposed to Vanguard Veterans that specify they can charge on the turn the arrive, when normally you can't charge the turn you arrive.

Cyke wrote:
IF you prefer, we'll just say that Charge Moves are permitted because LiC is checked for on a unit level, rather than a model level. It is not checked for between the move of each of the models of the same unit during a Charge Move.

Not true, If one model is locked then the unit is locked, as the locked rules specify that one or more models...

Also why are you arbitrarily checking on a unit level, rather than a model level? What rules do you have to back this view up?

Either 1) We can never check, as there is nothing telling us when to check.. Or 2) We must check at all times, as there is nothing telling us when to check.

I am inclined to use 2, as 1 makes the locked rules useless.

Ah, okay, thanks Happyjew, I understand the relevance now. Sorry, I didn't get that.

 DeathReaper wrote:

Cyke wrote:
IF you prefer, we'll just say that Charge Moves are permitted because LiC is checked for on a unit level, rather than a model level. It is not checked for between the move of each of the models of the same unit during a Charge Move.

Not true, If one model is locked then the unit is locked, as the locked rules specify that one or more models...

Also why are you arbitrarily checking on a unit level, rather than a model level? What rules do you have to back this view up?

When I say it's applied on a "unit level", I mean on a temporal perspective, not a spatial one. You check for LiC, then you begin the unit's move. Once the entire unit has moved, you check for LiC again.
As opposed to on a "model level" from a temporal perspective, where you move one model, then interrupt to check for LiC. Move another model, interrupt to check for LiC.
This resolves the contradiction between LiC rules and Charge Move rules.

As I understand, this is the sole argument toward LiC only kicking on at the Initiative 10 step?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 DeathReaper wrote:
Either 1) We can never check, as there is nothing telling us when to check.. Or 2) We must check at all times, as there is nothing telling us when to check.

Is the bolded portion really true?

How some people on this forum are even able to finish a game within 48 hours is beyond me. It seems like you're arguing just for the sake of arguing. And as for some of the replies; Really? Do you REALLY think you're not locked in combat as soon as the models touch each others bases?

Windir83 wrote:
How some people on this forum are even able to finish a game within 48 hours is beyond me. It seems like you're arguing just for the sake of arguing. And as for some of the replies; Really? Do you REALLY think you're not locked in combat as soon as the models touch each others bases?

Easy. We argue it all out here first...................... What did you really think the rule questions forum was for if not to debate the rules.

 DeathReaper wrote:
Either 1) We can never check, as there is nothing telling us when to check.. Or 2) We must check at all times, as there is nothing telling us when to check.

I am inclined to use 2, as 1 makes the locked rules useless.

There are very specific times that tell us when to check for Locked in Combat. The rules tell us exactly when to check. And for specific permission, you again ignore pg 21.

You have zero RAW support for your argument.

Cyke wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
Either 1) We can never check, as there is nothing telling us when to check.. Or 2) We must check at all times, as there is nothing telling us when to check.

Is the bolded portion really true?

I have not found anything the says "Check at this point" or "Check at this step" or anything like that. (The only thing close to this is the Context of where the rules about being locked are, in the Fight Sub-phase).

If someone has a page where this info is, in case I overlooked it, please let me know.

Fragile wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
Either 1) We can never check, as there is nothing telling us when to check.. Or 2) We must check at all times, as there is nothing telling us when to check.

I am inclined to use 2, as 1 makes the locked rules useless.

There are very specific times that tell us when to check for Locked in Combat. The rules tell us exactly when to check. And for specific permission, you again ignore pg 21.

Page 21 says nothing about checking at a specific time.

Also, Specific permission to move must over-ride the can not move by specifically telling us it can move even if the unit is locked in combat (Like pile in moves do) otherwise you can not move. Page 21 does not give specific permission to over-ride the Locked rules.

Unless you are saying that you are told to move in the movement phase, but locked says you can not, that the movement rules give permission to over-ride the Locked rules as well.

 DeathReaper wrote:

Cyke wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
Either 1) We can never check, as there is nothing telling us when to check.. Or 2) We must check at all times, as there is nothing telling us when to check.

Is the bolded portion really true?

I have not found anything the says "Check at this point" or "Check at this step" or anything like that.

If someone has a page where this info is, in case I overlooked it, please let me know.

Fragile wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
Either 1) We can never check, as there is nothing telling us when to check.. Or 2) We must check at all times, as there is nothing telling us when to check.

I am inclined to use 2, as 1 makes the locked rules useless.

There are very specific times that tell us when to check for Locked in Combat. The rules tell us exactly when to check. And for specific permission, you again ignore pg 21.

Page 21 says nothing about checking at a specific time.

Now you avoid the argument by taking things out of context, yet again.

Pg 21 completely shuts down your argument about permission.

As far as telling use when to check for LiC. The rules clearly tell you when to check. For example, check page 12 about shooting... clearly states to check for LIC. And since the rules tell us when to check for LIC, obviously your #2 is wrong.

Now I am going to have dig thru the release drek for 6e, as I recall the GW WD press specificly talking about this specific issue.

Fragile wrote:
Now you avoid the argument by taking things out of context, yet again.

Why not read the rest of my Edit.

and P.21 does not say they can move when locked in combat, so they can not.

Permissive rule set tells us this is true, as the words " can make the charge move even if they are locked in combat" or something to that effect do not exist on that page. So the following is false:

Fragile wrote:
Pg 21 completely shuts down your argument about permission.

P.12 just tells us that if a unit is locked they can not shoot. It does not explicitly say to check at that point.

You see, DeathReaper, it doesn't HAVE to make a specific statement about overriding LiC on pg. 21.

The source of ALL your confusion stems from this:

DeathReaper wrote:Either 1) We can never check, as there is nothing telling us when to check.. Or 2) We must check at all times, as there is nothing telling us when to check.

This is why you misinterpret LiC to be a state that has to "start" on Init step 10, when it's in fact something you check for instantaneously. Because you thought there is "nothing telling us when to check".

In fact, the rulebook DOES tell you when to check. It tells you when to check, each and every time.
And you DO check for LiC on an instant-to-instant basis, whenever it tells you to check.

Here's a list of some places it tells you when to check, I may have missed out some, though:
Page 10: Moving and Close Combat
Page 12: Who can shoot?
Page 20: Declarge Charge
Page 21: Overwatch Restrictions

So you see, on pg 20, it tells you to check for LiC before you begin your Charge Move, (temporally, on a unit level). It does not tell you to check in between individual model moves, which is why you don't.
Not important, but it might help you to understand that the intention and logic behind this is similar normal movement and squad coherency. You check before the unit begins moving, and after, but not in between individual models.

Aaaand lastly, on page 21, Overwatch Restrictions, it tells you to check again for LiC. The point of the whole topic. RAW.

I hope I've cleared up your confusion, but if this doesn't do it, I don't know what will, so I'm out for the day.

I never said that "LiC to be a state that has to "start" on Init step 10" Far from it.


I Agree with "it's in fact something you check for instantaneously" so as soon as the condition happens the rules take effect. The rules no longer have an effect when there are no more models in base contact.

So it is something we must check for at all times, as the conditions are still being met outside of the assault phase.

Page 23 tells us about Locked under "Who can fight" and those rules are in the Fight Sub-Phase. Basically it gives us a condition (Units that have one or more models in base contact with
enemies) and tells us what happens when this condition is fulfilled (are locked in combat.)

So If A then B.

Does a charging unit have one or more models in base contact with enemies when the initial charger makes base contact with the enemy?

If Yes (A) then they are locked in combat. (B)

Cyke wrote:

Page 10: Moving and Close Combat
Page 12: Who can shoot?
Page 20: Declarge Charge
Page 21: Overwatch Restrictions

None of those say "Check if the unit is Locked in CC".

They are all predicated on an existing condition.
(Note P.10 says "units already locked in close combat with the enemy cannot move during the Movement phase."

 DeathReaper wrote:

Fragile wrote:
Now you avoid the argument by taking things out of context, yet again.

Why not read the rest of my Edit.

and P.21 does not say they can move when locked in combat, so they can not.

Permissive rule set tells us this is true, as the words " can make the charge move even if they are locked in combat" or something to that effect do not exist on that page. So the following is false:

Fragile wrote:
Pg 21 completely shuts down your argument about permission.

P.12 just tells us that if a unit is locked they can not shoot. It does not explicitly say to check at that point.

Strange, pg 21 clearly states you can move models when they are in BTB with the enemy. But you keep ignoring that page since it shuts down your argument.

And checks are done at any time you perform an action that has a restriction. If there is no restriction such as LIC, there is no need to do a check.

Fragile wrote:
Strange, pg 21 clearly states you can move models when they are in BTB with the enemy.

Mind quoting the rule? I see nothing about moving models when they are in BTB with the enemy on page 21

I already did, several posts back.

Nothing in what you quoted several posts back states "you can move models when they are in BTB with the enemy"

Fragile wrote:
"All of the models in a charging unit make their charge move" ... Notice is says ALL of the models must make their charge move?

Did you mean this blurb?

Notice how Can't Trumps Must in a permissive ruleset, unless you have specific permission to over-ride the Can't?


"All of the models in a charging unit make their charge move" does not give specific permission to over-ride the cant move except for Pile In moves rule.

rigeld2 wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

@Rig.
Wounding and models out of Line of Sight. you can score 10 wounds to a unit that has 10 models and no save of any kind, so 10 should die, but if 3 of those models are out of Line of Sight, you stop removing models, the wound pool empties, and three models live.

Poor example.
Out of Sight has explicit rules requiring you to check before every allocated wound.
Find the same thing in the Charge Move rules.

rigeld2 wrote:That's the point I'm attempting to make - when setting up an interrupting action, they've spelled it out. There's no permission to interrupt the charge move.

DR - mind replying?

Page 23. makes you interrupt the move.

as I have stated before:

Page 23 tells us about Locked under "Who can fight" and those rules are in the Fight Sub-Phase. Basically it gives us a condition (Units that have one or more models in base contact with
enemies) and tells us what happens when this condition is fulfilled (are locked in combat.)

So If A then B.

Does a charging unit have one or more models in base contact with enemies when the initial charger makes base contact with the enemy?

If Yes (A) then they are locked in combat. (B)

That is the permission to interrupt, because once the initial charger is in Base contact, you fulfill the condition, and are bound by the locked rules. (Unless there is a simple explanation like you are not locked until the Fight Sub-phase. Conveniently, that is where the Locked rules are, in the Fight Sub-Phase heading).

I don't see permission to interrupt there - I've been granted permission to move as a unit, and nothing denied that permission at the time.
Page 23 doesn't retroactively deny my permission, and there's no requirement to check for locked during my charge move (that I've already been allowed to do) (we know this because its not referenced anywhere).

Show the requirement to stop referencing the charge move rules and do something else.

Move the initial charger into contact with the nearest enemy model in the unit being charged, using the shortest possible.....

Moves the first model into BTB.

After moving the first model in the unit, you can move the others in any sequence you desire, providing you abide by the following conditions:

Specific permission to move the rest of the unit and gives 3 bullet point restrictions on how to move those models.

Fragile wrote:

After moving the first model in the unit, you can move the others in any sequence you desire, providing you abide by the following conditions:

Specific permission to move the rest of the unit and gives 3 bullet point restrictions on how to move those models.

That is not specific permission.

Specific permission is something like MC's ability to fire two of their weapons in the shooting phase, when the regular rules say you can fire one weapon in the shooting phase.

Nothing on P.21 gives specific permission to over-ride the 'can't move while locked in combat' rule.

rigeld2 wrote:
Show the requirement to stop referencing the charge move rules and do something else.

The Locked rules give us a condition (Units that have one or more models in base contact with enemies) and tells us what happens when this condition is fulfilled (are locked in combat.)

Once that condition is met the rule must be enforced or you are breaking the rules.

You mean other than the permission to move other models while one of your models was in BTB during a charge move? Other than the specific way in which those models have to move.


You quote the very rule that proves your viewpoint wrong.

Happyjew wrote:
This has to do with the topic on hand. There are two stances:

One side claims that a unit is not locked in combat until the Fight sub-phase (until the combat is over). This allows models to complete their charge move, and the unit being charged to Overwatch any one of the charging units.

The other side claims that a unit is locked immediately as soon as a model is i base to base contact, but the models are allowed to make a non-legal move (as the only allowed move is Pile-In).

There's a third side, that the unit is locked after the charging unit is finished moving so a unit that was charged can't over watch a second (or third, etc.) unit since they are already locked. That is the stance that matches the rules.

Fragile wrote:
You mean other than the permission to move other models while one of your models was in BTB during a charge move? Other than the specific way in which those models have to move.

Where in there does it specify that you may move models even if the unit is locked in combat? (Hint: It does not say that).

 snooggums wrote:
There's a third side, that the unit is locked after the charging unit is finished moving so a unit that was charged can't over watch a second (or third, etc.) unit since they are already locked. That is the stance that matches the rules.

No, it really does not match the RAW.

 DeathReaper wrote:

Fragile wrote:
You mean other than the permission to move other models while one of your models was in BTB during a charge move? Other than the specific way in which those models have to move.

Where in there does it specify that you may move models even if the unit is locked in combat? (Hint: It does not say that).

 snooggums wrote:
There's a third side, that the unit is locked after the charging unit is finished moving so a unit that was charged can't over watch a second (or third, etc.) unit since they are already locked. That is the stance that matches the rules.

No, it really does not match the RAW.

It does, even if you think it doesn't.

 DeathReaper wrote:

Fragile wrote:
You mean other than the permission to move other models while one of your models was in BTB during a charge move? Other than the specific way in which those models have to move.

Where in there does it specify that you may move models even if the unit is locked in combat? (Hint: It does not say that).

Locked in combat is defined as being in BTB with the enemy:

Pg 23. Units that have one or more models in base contact with enemies are locked in combat.

And your saying a rule that tells you how to move your models WHILE one of your models is in BTB (aka LOCKED) does not say that?

Again your trying to take rules out of context to justify a position that has zero RAW support. The definition of Locked in Combat defeats your own position but you ignore it.

 snooggums wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

Fragile wrote:
You mean other than the permission to move other models while one of your models was in BTB during a charge move? Other than the specific way in which those models have to move.

Where in there does it specify that you may move models even if the unit is locked in combat? (Hint: It does not say that).

 snooggums wrote:
There's a third side, that the unit is locked after the charging unit is finished moving so a unit that was charged can't over watch a second (or third, etc.) unit since they are already locked. That is the stance that matches the rules.

No, it really does not match the RAW.

It does, even if you think it doesn't.

I have provided rules quotes to back my position. Those quotes say it really does not match the RAW.

Fragile wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

Fragile wrote:
You mean other than the permission to move other models while one of your models was in BTB during a charge move? Other than the specific way in which those models have to move.

Where in there does it specify that you may move models even if the unit is locked in combat? (Hint: It does not say that).

Locked in combat is defined as being in BTB with the enemy:

Pg 23. Units that have one or more models in base contact with enemies are locked in combat.

And your saying a rule that tells you how to move your models WHILE one of your models is in BTB (aka LOCKED) does not say that?

Again your trying to take rules out of context to justify a position that has zero RAW support. The definition of Locked in Combat defeats your own position but you ignore it.

It tells you how to make a Charge move.

It does not say that you can move while locked. It needs to say you can moved while locked to over-ride that Page 23 rule.

Either that or you do not become locked until the rules say you are locked, which is on Page 23, under the Fight Sub-Phase.

It makes perfect sense that you can move models in the charge sub-phase, because we are not told you are locked until the rules in the Fight Sub-Phase say you are locked. Context matters.

Fragile wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

Fragile wrote:
You mean other than the permission to move other models while one of your models was in BTB during a charge move? Other than the specific way in which those models have to move.

Where in there does it specify that you may move models even if the unit is locked in combat? (Hint: It does not say that).

Locked in combat is defined as being in BTB with the enemy:

Pg 23. Units that have one or more models in base contact with enemies are locked in combat.

And your saying a rule that tells you how to move your models WHILE one of your models is in BTB (aka LOCKED) does not say that?

Again your trying to take rules out of context to justify a position that has zero RAW support. The definition of Locked in Combat defeats your own position but you ignore it.

I'm flip-flopping all over the place with this.

I'm with most people in this thread that is basically saying (RAI) that executing the Charge Move lets you move the unit into B2B, and assuming the Charge Move succeeds, you are LiC - which means you cannot fire Overwatch against another unit that charges you (which is where this thread actually started).

However, I can see what DR is saying. RAW, if at any time a model is in b2b, the unit is LiC and can't move except for Pile Ins. This is explicit on p23. Making no move can reasonably be argued to include not being able to complete the Charge Move that caused the LiC condition. So in order to complete the Charge Move, we can't be LiC yet. This begs the question WHEN are we LiC. Candidates are a) at the end of the Charge Move, or b) at the start of Fight Sub-phase.

The only evidence we have is (b), as LiC is defined there.

Having said all that, I am sure I saw something from GW that basically supported the (a) case, and another poster said he'd seen the same thing. Problem is I can't find it - checked FAQs, BRB, and June+ WDs.

 DeathReaper wrote:
I have provided rules quotes to back my position. Those quotes say it really does not match the RAW.

But you havent. The only thing you have done is take a section of the rules and try to apply it to stop a unit from taking an action in mid action. Cite me the rule that says that LIC only occurs in the Fight Sub Phase. (Hint: You can't). LIC is defined as in BTB with an enemy. The Charge Move is the action that puts you in BTB with an enemy. Once that charge move is done, then you are LIC. The charge rules clearly allow "movement" while members of the unit are in BTB.

It does not say that you can move while locked. It needs to say you can moved while locked to over-ride that Page 23 rule.

It doesnt, it is clearly a more specific rule that explains the process of how your Unit is allowed to move into BTB with the enemy.

Either that or you do not become locked until the rules say you are locked, which is on Page 23, under the Fight Sub-Phase.

Yes the rules say you are locked in combat when you are in BTB with the enemy. Which occurs with the charge move.

It makes perfect sense that you can move models in the charge sub-phase, because we are not told you are locked until the rules in the Fight Sub-Phase say you are locked.

Again, cite the rule that states this.

However, I can see what DR is saying. RAW, if at any time a model is in b2b, the unit is LiC and can't move except for Pile Ins. This is explicit on p23. Making no move can reasonably be argued to include not being able to complete the Charge Move that caused the LiC condition. So in order to complete the Charge Move, we can't be LiC yet. This begs the question WHEN are we LiC. Candidates are a) at the end of the Charge Move, or b) at the start of Fight Sub-phase.

DR wants to break this into a model by model issue but its a Unit issue.

""While a unit is locked in combat, it rnay only make Pile In moves and cannot otherwise move or shoot.""

1. The Unit declares it is going to charge. It must check then to see if it is allowed to charge. Therefore it must check to see if.
a. it is already locked in combat
b. it shot rapid fire weapons....etc..
c. gone to ground
d. ran in the shooting phase.
e. falling back.

If the unit passes all these checks it is allowed to make its action. It can then follow the charge rules laid out on page 20. The declare the charge step is the only place where LIC is checked for...(pg20). Once it has declared the charge it must follow all the steps for charging.

":"The charging unit now moves into close combat with the... "" Tells you the UNIT moves..
""All of the models in a charging unit make their charge move.. "" Tells you that you have to move ALL of your models..
""Move the initial charger into contact with the nearest enemy model in the unit being charged.."" Is the spot where DR claims unit is not locked (notice we already passed the check for LIC point)
""After moving the first model in the unit, you can move the others"" Permission to move your other models after having a model in BTB with the enemy (Note this is the definition of LIC)

Once completed the unit is in BTB with the enemy and therefore LIC. Nothing in the rules tells you to check for LIC during the charge action. Someone above I believe listed all the placed where you are explicitly told to check for LIC. Mid charge is not one of them.

Fragile wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
It does not say that you can move while locked. It needs to say you can moved while locked to over-ride that Page 23 rule.

It doesnt, it is clearly a more specific rule that explains the process of how your Unit is allowed to move into BTB with the enemy.

Can't Trumps Must, unless there is a specific exception, which the Charge move rules do not have.

Fragile wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
Either that or you do not become locked until the rules say you are locked, which is on Page 23, under the Fight Sub-Phase.

Yes the rules say you are locked in combat when you are in BTB with the enemy. Which occurs when one or more models are in base contact with an enemy. when the Initial charger makes Base Contact.

Fixed that for you with the orange. (See the Underlined below for the rules quote on exactly when this occurs).

Fragile wrote:
Once that charge move is done, then you are LIC.

Yet at no point do the rules actually say this.

They say: "Units that have one or more models in base contact with enemies are locked in combat." P.23

Does a unit that has one model in Base Contact fulfill this condition?


P.S. It is probably best to wait for an FAQ on this at this point.

There is an exception. The rule telling you to specifically move your models while the initial charger is in BTB.

They say: "Units that have one or more models in base contact with enemies are locked in combat." P.23

Does a unit that has one model in Base Contact fulfill this condition?

Yes, but it doesnt support your argument any. When do you check for LIC?. At Declare Charge for the Attacker, and Resolve Overwatch for the Defender. (Also movement and shooting phase, but those are not applicable.)

P.S. It is probably best to wait for an FAQ on this at this point.

Now this I agree with you on. The problem comes when someone asks and everyone says "Yes/No" and we get into this debate again rather than just saying "Its debatable" and letting it die like the last thread until a FAQ comes out.

Fragile wrote:
There is an exception. The rule telling you to specifically move your models while the initial charger is in BTB.

There needs to be a specific exception, otherwise can't trumps must. Charge move rules do not have a specific exception.

Except you're attempting to interrupt an action without specific allowance.

Where in the charge move rules does it say to check and see if you're locked in combat? Quote the sentence please.

rigeld2 wrote:
Except you're attempting to interrupt an action without specific allowance.

Where in the charge move rules does it say to check and see if you're locked in combat? Quote the sentence please.

I already have: "Units that have one or more models in base contact with enemies are locked in combat." P.23

Is the Initial Charger in Base contact with the enemy?

Does the initial charger fulfill the condition of "one or more models in base contact"?

If yes, then can not move.


But I think this has gone as far as it can, so either way an FaQ would help.

You only check for LIC when you declare the charge, or declare the overwatch. You dont apply it mid charge. There is no check for it.

That's not in the charge rules, so no - you haven't already.
I asked for something in the charge rules that is making you check for LiC. Hint - it doesn't exist.

Your interpretation requires interrupting a required process with no rules based reason. You've provided no similar examples when asked (you brought up allocating wounds which isn't similar) and when I asked for more examples, you failed to give any and re-quoted the rule that doesn't actually give you permission to interrupt like you think it does.

I have permission to perform an action. I begin performing the action. Where is you permission to stop me in the middle of performing that action? Page 23 doesn't give it at all.

I'll be honest Either way after this argument I would really like to see a Faq/errata or even an Inat stance on overwatch vs multiplle chargees.

I agree. I've sent my contribution to the GW FAQ line.

rigeld2 wrote:
That's not in the charge rules, so no - you haven't already.
I asked for something in the charge rules that is making you check for LiC. Hint - it doesn't exist.

Is there something in the charge rules that gives a specific exception to move whilst locked? Hint - it doesn't exist.

rigeld2 wrote:
Your interpretation requires interrupting a required process with no rules based reason. You've provided no similar examples when asked (you brought up allocating wounds which isn't similar) and when I asked for more examples, you failed to give any and re-quoted the rule that doesn't actually give you permission to interrupt like you think it does.

I have permission to perform an action. I begin performing the action. Where is you permission to stop me in the middle of performing that action? Page 23 doesn't give it at all.

Here is the permission to stop you:
"Units that have one or more models in base contact with enemies are locked in combat." P.23

Is the Initial Charger in Base Contact with an enemy? (Yes)

Then you are locked and can not move.

It is not a check that is only performed once in a while, it is an ongoing condition when enemies are in Base Contact.

Well if he wipes out the gaunts with the flamers then he won't be locked in comnat and able to perform over watch again.

 Grimnarsmate wrote:
Well if he wipes out the gaunts with the flamers then he won't be locked in comnat and able to perform over watch again.

Not true. Read Overwatch Restrictions Page 21.

Look, DeathReaper, everyone has already explained it to you very clearly, over and over again.

"Locked in Combat" affects the Charge during "Declare a Charge" on pg 20. It's a check that is done at that instant, and if you're in the clear, you perform all the steps of the Charge move rules

It does NOT kick in between individual models suddenly, while a player is in the middle of moving his models for a Charge move. You don't get to wait for your opponent to move his Initial Charger, then suddenly stand up and go "HA! YOUR INITIAL CHARGER IS TOUCHING MY MODEL! LOCKED! YOU CAN'T MOVE YOUR OTHER CHARGERS!".
This is very, very, very clear to everyone, RAW.


It also says during Overwatch Restrictions, pg 21, that you cannot fire Overwatch while Locked in Combat. It's a check done in that instant, and if you're not in the clear, you can't fire.


Basically you are still sticking to this:

DeathReaper wrote:Either 1) We can never check, as there is nothing telling us when to check.. Or 2) We must check at all times, as there is nothing telling us when to check.

..even though it's already been explained to you that it is blatantly untrue. You are specifically told when to apply checks for Locked in Combat. So, no, we do not "check at all times, as there is nothing telling us when to check." Because each and every specific time that you are meant to check for Locked in Combat, the rulebook will clearly tell you. I even helpfully listed all the instants where we are told to check!


I'm convinced now that it's not a misunderstanding; you just reeeeaaaaaally want to be able to hold back your Overwatch fire to choose which charger to shoot at, and logic be damned. You're just going to push a convoluted misreading of the Charge rules to say that Charge Moves are impossible, unless you get your way with Overwatch.

If that's the case, just wait for an FAQ ruling. Maybe it will rule in favour of holding back Overwatch fire, and we'll all play that way. Unfortunately, RAW, that's not how it works.

It's hilarious how some people say that it's "cheesy" to use an actual tactic to get around Overwatch.

inb4 charging a squad of 10 tac marines with a melee-focused squad is cheesy!

 Sigvatr wrote:
It's hilarious how some people say that it's "cheesy" to use an actual tactic to get around Overwatch.

Who said that?

Cyke wrote:
Look, DeathReaper, everyone has already explained it to you very clearly, over and over again.

"Locked in Combat" affects the Charge during "Declare a Charge" on pg 20. It's a check that is done at that instant, and if you're in the clear, you perform all the steps of the Charge move rules.

It is not a check that you do only at specific times, it is an ongoing condition when enemies are in Base Contact. So at all times if one model is in base contact with an enemy the unit is locked. (The language on Page 23 does not mention timing, rather gives us a trigger condition, and when that condition is met the rules take effect). How it this unclear?

 DeathReaper wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
That's not in the charge rules, so no - you haven't already.
I asked for something in the charge rules that is making you check for LiC. Hint - it doesn't exist.

Is there something in the charge rules that gives a specific exception to move whilst locked? Hint - it doesn't exist.

rigeld2 wrote:
Your interpretation requires interrupting a required process with no rules based reason. You've provided no similar examples when asked (you brought up allocating wounds which isn't similar) and when I asked for more examples, you failed to give any and re-quoted the rule that doesn't actually give you permission to interrupt like you think it does.

I have permission to perform an action. I begin performing the action. Where is you permission to stop me in the middle of performing that action? Page 23 doesn't give it at all.

Here is the permission to stop you:
"Units that have one or more models in base contact with enemies are locked in combat." P.23

Is the Initial Charger in Base Contact with an enemy? (Yes)

Then you are locked and can not move.

It is not a check that is only performed once in a while, it is an ongoing condition when enemies are in Base Contact.

So the check before declaring a charge, and the check before normal movement are redundant?
And the check for Consolidation?
Sweeping Advance isn't movement, can I do that while locked? Oh, no - there's a check there.
There's a check in the shooting in/out of close combat as well.

Your assertion that we aren't told when to check and therefore must always apply the rule is demonstrably false.
Do you have another rules based leg to stand on?

 DeathReaper wrote:

Can't Trumps Must, unless there is a specific exception, which the Charge move rules do not have.

Does "Can" make it even?

If the initial charger successfully moves into base contact with the
primary target, remaining models can charge models belonging
to either the primary or secondary target units, as long as they
follow the rules for moving charging models.

I'm also going to say that you can only over watch while not having anything else in B2B contact from a "shooting attack" side of things.

rigeld2 wrote:
So the check before declaring a charge, and the check before normal movement are redundant?
And the check for Consolidation?
Sweeping Advance isn't movement, can I do that while locked? Oh, no - there's a check there.
There's a check in the shooting in/out of close combat as well.

Your assertion that we aren't told when to check and therefore must always apply the rule is demonstrably false.
Do you have another rules based leg to stand on?

Where, in any of those rules, does it say "Check for Locked in combat?
It is not there.

The movement rules even say: "units already locked in close combat"P. 10, so it is clearly an ongoing condition, and not something that is only checked for at certain times.

Stormbreed wrote:
Does "Can" make it even?

If the initial charger successfully moves into base contact with the
primary target, remaining models can charge models belonging
to either the primary or secondary target units, as long as they
follow the rules for moving charging models.

Can't trumps can/must.

 DeathReaper wrote:
[The movement rules even say: "units already locked in close combat"P. 10, so it is clearly an ongoing condition, and not something that is only checked for at certain.

It says already locked in combat because the Game Turn is sequential. Move -> Shoot ->Assault. Therefore you cannot be locked in combat unless it is from a previous turn.

As for the checks...

""MOVING AND CLOSE COMBAT
Units already locked in close combat with the enemy cannot move during the Movement phase. "" You would check here..

""WHO CAN SHOOT
Certain situations prevent a model from firing The most common are:
. Their unit is locked in close cornbat with the foe."" You could check here....

"""some units are disallowed from charging. common reasons a unit is not allowed to declare a charge include:
. The unit is already locked in close combat (see page 23).""" And also here....

Fragile wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
[The movement rules even say: "units already locked in close combat"P. 10, so it is clearly an ongoing condition, and not something that is only checked for at certain.

It says already locked in combat because the Game Turn is sequential. Move -> Shoot ->Assault. Therefore you cannot be locked in combat unless it is from a previous turn.

Thank you for confirming that it is an ongoing condition.

The charging rules specify that subsequent models can and indeed must continue moving after the first. That's specific permisson.

The unit is locked once it's in base contact. The charging unit can keep moving the subsequent charging models, and both units can make Pile In moves, because the rules explicitly say thay they can (and must).

 DeathReaper wrote:

Fragile wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
[The movement rules even say: "units already locked in close combat"P. 10, so it is clearly an ongoing condition, and not something that is only checked for at certain.

It says already locked in combat because the Game Turn is sequential. Move -> Shoot ->Assault. Therefore you cannot be locked in combat unless it is from a previous turn.

Thank you for confirming that it is an ongoing condition.

Your welcome. That has no bearing on any part of your argument though. You only check for LIC at points that the rules say you do. Mid charge is not one of them.

ATSKNF has a great example of Specific permission when it says you can use it against SA.

Charge moves have no such specific language.

They make abundantly clear and explicit that models can and must move even after the first model makes contact. Likewise with the Pile In rules.

You keep covering the same ground. And will undoubtedly continue to do so. Your entire position is based on trying to take that one sentence out of context. You have no RAW support for your side of the argument, only a continuous stream trying to disprove the Charge move locks.

 DeathReaper wrote:
ATSKNF has a great example of Specific permission when it says you can use it against SA.

Charge moves have no such specific language.

So you're ignoring all the things I cited that require you to check to see if the unit is locked? They al deny permission if the unit is locked, meaning you must check at that time.

Fragile wrote:

You're welcome. That has no bearing on any part of your argument though. You only check for LIC at points that the rules say you do. Mid charge is not one of them.

You check for lock prior to performing an Overwatch, as per page 21. If lock preventst overwatch, you must check to see if you're locked prior to firing overwatch.
If you don't check for lock prior to shooting, then the restriction would do nothing.

Here's a question.
If you are going to claim locked only starts when a model checks for it's initiative step in the fight sub phase, when does locked end?

1) If Blood Angel Devistators are locked with the lone surviving cultist, and a stray whirlwind shot scatters in and kills the cultists, are those blood angels still locked?
2) If Blood angel Devistators put 2 wounds on a chaos lord, and then at init 1 he swings with his daemon weapon, rolls a 1 and dies, are the Blood Angels still locked?

Since they lost contact with the enemy, they have not had an initiative step yet to show that they are not locked, and last condition was locked.


-Matt

HawaiiMatt wrote:

Fragile wrote:

You're welcome. That has no bearing on any part of your argument though. You only check for LIC at points that the rules say you do. Mid charge is not one of them.

You check for lock prior to performing an Overwatch, as per page 21. If lock preventst overwatch, you must check to see if you're locked prior to firing overwatch.
If you don't check for lock prior to shooting, then the restriction would do nothing.

You check for LIC in quite a few places, those above were just examples.

Here's a question.
If you are going to claim locked only starts when a model checks for it's initiative step in the fight sub phase, when does locked end?

I have never claimed anything like that, you may want to recheck who you think said that.

Fragile wrote:

Here's a question.
If you are going to claim locked only starts when a model checks for it's initiative step in the fight sub phase, when does locked end?

I have never claimed anything like that, you may want to recheck who you think said that.

My bad. It's tough to follow this thread while the 3 year old is chasing the cat through the house with my Storm Raven.
So, not saying it was you, when does locked end, if you attaching timing to it, other than just base to base?

-Matt

Stop trying to rule lawyer out of this. The entire terminology behind people firing overwatch is SUPPOSED to be that you can choose to fire selectively so that you don't waste your overwatch on a group you dont need to shoot. Herp Derp.

Monasou wrote:
Stop trying to rule lawyer out of this. The entire terminology behind people firing overwatch is SUPPOSED to be that you can choose to fire selectively so that you don't waste your overwatch on a group you dont need to shoot. Herp Derp.

That's your assumption of the intent.
Mine is that you can take the risk of not shooting at the first unit, hoping they don't make the charge.

Fortunately, that's also backed up by rules.

Monasou wrote:
Stop trying to rule lawyer out of this. The entire terminology behind people firing overwatch is SUPPOSED to be that you can choose to fire selectively so that you don't waste your overwatch on a group you dont need to shoot. Herp Derp.

The terminology of firing overwatch is to shoot at an enemy before they get in to throwing punch/stabbing with knife range. If the first unit is already in your face, it's not exactly easy to fire a missile launcher while a 300 pound bug is clawing at your back with 4 foot long scythes.
You can't claim abstraction at Step1, and then just ignore how your claiming pans out on step5.

-Matt

The rules are clear that you cannot overwatch when locked in combat. If a unit is in b2b then you cannot overwatch. Strict RAW no joy overwatching the second unit.

 liturgies of blood wrote:
The rules are clear that you cannot overwatch when locked in combat. If a unit is in b2b then you cannot overwatch. Strict RAW no joy overwatching the second unit.

And when does one become locked in combat?

Are units with one or more models in base contact with enemies locked in combat?

(Both are rhetorical questions).

 DeathReaper wrote:

 liturgies of blood wrote:
The rules are clear that you cannot overwatch when locked in combat. If a unit is in b2b then you cannot overwatch. Strict RAW no joy overwatching the second unit.

And when does one become locked in combat?

When you're allowed to check for it.

Are units with one or more models in base contact with enemies locked in combat?

Yes - when you're allowed to check.

(Both are rhetorical questions).

Rhetorical or not, you haven't addressed those points.

Take P.10 for example. it says: "units already locked in close combat"P. 10, so it is clearly an ongoing condition, and not something that only applies when we are "Told to check" (Even though we are not explicitly told to "Check for Locked in combat).

It applies at all times when the condition is fulfilled.

 DeathReaper wrote:
Take P.10 for example. it says: "units already locked in close combat"P. 10, so it is clearly an ongoing condition, and not something that only applies when we are "Told to check" (Even though we are not explicitly told to "Check for Locked in combat).

It applies at all times when the condition is fulfilled.

"MOVING AND CLOSE COMBAT
Units already locked in close combat with the enemy cannot
move during the Movement phase."
"I want to move that unit. It's in CC. I can't move that unit."
How is that not a check?

Remember it says "Units already locked"

They are locked at all times, not "only when the 'check' is made".

They are continuously Locked whilst the condition is filled.

You cannot know if they're locked until you check.
Permissive rule set - we must be told when to check.
There is no instruction in the Charge Move section to check.

Therefore nothing is restricting the Charge Move.

or

You're bending that to mean what you want - "Units already locked" well, how do I know if they are? I check. This means that - in the past - they came in to base-to-base contact (it's irrelevant how). This doesn't mean that the status is all-pervasive. You haven't gotten around the fact that there are checks built into the rules and the Charge Move doesn't have any.

And you can 'check' during the assault phase.

So logic dictates that anyone still in Base contact is still locked until they are not in base contact anymore.

It is an ongoing condition, not something that only happens at the 'check'

 DeathReaper wrote:
And you can 'check' during the assault phase.

So logic dictates that anyone still in Base contact is still locked until they are not in base contact anymore.

It is an ongoing condition, not something that only happens at the 'check'

During the assault phase, yes.
During the Charge Move, no.

Again, it is an ongoing condition, and not something that only applies at certain times.

 DeathReaper wrote:
Again, it is an ongoing condition, and not something that only applies at certain times.

It's an ongoing condition that is only relevant at certain times.
You are told when those times are.

It is an ongoing condition that has certain restrictions at certain times.
You are told when those times are.

Including P.23 about not being able to move, except Pile In moves whist locked.

So you're arguing for massive redundancy of rules over check when you're told to?

Not at all.

I am saying that the condition is true when the rules say it is true. The Condition is ongoing and does not stop until the condition is no longer true.

And that the condition is true when one or more models is in base contact with enemies.

Right, so massive redundancy.
Aside from the Charge Move rules, are there any that don't have you check for LiC?

Snapshot wrote:
I think the only way to get overwatch on the hive tyrant would be to decline overwatch on the gaunts, and hope for a crappy Charge Range roll that would bring them up short - their Charge fails, the tyrant declares a charge, and you now overwatch him.

If the gaunts' charge succeeds, you are locked in combat and cannot overwatch any more.

We have always it this way shoot the first declared or hope for a crappy charge roll.

Rather interesting discussion.

PG 21 - Assault Phase Summary

You first declare charges. Second, resolve overwatches, third roll range, fourth charge move, fifth declare next charge or finish subphase.

The next phase is the fight subphase which starts with the first step, choose a combat.

For me, this says that combats must exist BEFORE the fight subphase or else there can be no combats we can choose from. We can't say it happens between step 5 of the charge subphase and step 1 of the fight subphase, because by very definition, the subphase starts with the first step. This means that we have to validate when a combat is brought into existence.

We'll go with DR's claim that we ALWAYS are checking to see if a combat comes into existence since we aren't expressly told when.

I think the order of operations goes something like this.

1. Declare charge with Gaunts. Check if the unit is in combat. It is not, no models are in base to base. Step satisfied, go to 2.

2. Resolve Overwatch. Space Marine opts to NOT overwatch. Check if unit is in CC. It is not, no models are in B2B. This step is satisfied, go to 3.

3. Roll Charge, assumed to have succeeded. You are now allowed to move the unit the distance rolled. CC yet? No, no models in B2B. Satisfied. To step 4.

4. Charge move. Specific permission granted to move the UNIT the distance rolled in step 3. All models move the distance. Combat? Models are in B2B and "Units that have one or more models in B2B are locked (pg 23). Therefore a combat is now in progress. The unit is locked and cannot fire further overwatch.

5. Declare other charges and move on to the phase.

Fight Subphase:

1. Choose a combat. This necessitates that combats exist before this phase begins. Therefore, the combats begin their existence when the "units have one or more models in b2b" but after "All of the models move their charge distance." As this is the only thing specifically said about when a unit is locked in assault, other than on pg 21 where it tells you to refer to page 23, which conveniently has that sentence included.

I think that makes sense. Then again, i'm fairly tired.

tgf wrote:

Snapshot wrote:
I think the only way to get overwatch on the hive tyrant would be to decline overwatch on the gaunts, and hope for a crappy Charge Range roll that would bring them up short - their Charge fails, the tyrant declares a charge, and you now overwatch him.

If the gaunts' charge succeeds, you are locked in combat and cannot overwatch any more.

We have always it this way shoot the first declared or hope for a crappy charge roll.

That's how our group does it too, but I think DRs point is still a valid one. There is a hole in the rules that makes it unclear when a unit is considered locked. It clearly can't be mid-Charge Move, but it could be

(a) after the first successful charge move,
(b) at the end of the Charge Sub-phase = start of Fight Sub-phase, or
(c) as soon as the first model makes b2b contact and there is some unwritten rule that says it's OK to keep going with the Charge.

(a) and (c) are functionally equivalent. For different reasons, most people choose (a) which means you can't Overwatch after the Charge Move. That's what we do, but I'm happy to say this is probably RAI.

A couple of related items...

1. Does Hit-And-Run make any difference to the deliberations - just pointing out that this is an allowed move when locked?
2. If unit B charges after unit A has successfully completed its charge, does B get a cover save if Overwatch fire goes through A?
3. If Overwatch includes a flamer, would A get hit with Wall of Death hits too?

Questions (2) and (3) assume A's charge does not lock the target and that Overwatch is allowed on the 2nd charger.

As this discussion has gone on for quite a long time without firm resolution, maybe everyone should fire an FAQ email to GW to get them to tell us once and for all.

I know my stance and what I've argued/claimed...

Assuming you able to Overwatch the second (or later) unit to charge the unit:

Yes they would get a cover save IF they would have a cover save normally (including shooting through the first unit that charged).

Template weapons would only deal hits to the unit being Overwatched as the template is never placed.

There isn't any hole in the rules.

If there is an attempt to act, such as a model shooting (pg 12), a unit declaring a charge (pg 20), a unit firing Overwatch (pg 21), or or fighting in close combat (pg 23) the unit or model checks for whether it is locked in combat.

The rules state that the unit cannot declare a charge if they are locked. Once the unit has declared the charge and they are eligible to declare the charge, you follow the charge rules. There is no direction given to check for locked in combat while moving models in that unit.

When the unit being charged decides to fire Overwatch (immediately after the charge is declared) the unit that wants to fire Overwatch must check to see if they are locked in combat. If they were charged by another unit previously and are now in base to base as a result of the first charge, the unit cannot fire Overwatch.

Since the rules do state when to check for locked in combat, the statement on page 23 about not being able to move in the subsection titled 'Who can fight' is simply clarifying that once the unit is in combat they can not make the moves as listed.

So:
Unit A declares a charge on unit B. Unit A checks for LIC and charges if they are not (pg 20).
Unit B may choose to fire Overwatch or not (pg 21).
Unit A reaches Unit B, there is no direction to check LIC during the charge or after so no check is necessary.
Unit C declares a charge on Unit B. Unit C checks for LIC and since they are not, they may declare the charge (pg 20).
Unit B chooses to fire Overwatch on Unit C. Unit B check for LIC (pg 21), and since they are LIC with Unit A they may not fire Overwatch at Unit C.
Combat is fought after checking for eligiblity based on LIC (p23).

The rules already state when to check for locked in combat, based on the actions declared or action taken by the unit. There is zero reason to continue this thread with speculation that a single line taken out of context invalidates the rest of the rules.

Good summary, snooggums.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Monasou wrote:
Stop trying to rule lawyer out of this. The entire terminology behind people firing overwatch is SUPPOSED to be that you can choose to fire selectively so that you don't waste your overwatch on a group you dont need to shoot. Herp Derp.

Stop trying to twist the rules. The intent is clearly that if you are able to get two units into position to assault ONE unit, you are able to throw the more disposable or more durable unit in first, to draw the fire and act as "cover" for the second. It's a tactical advantage you can gain if you manage to position two units into the right spot and are able and willing to devote two units into assaulting one.

Snapshot wrote:
That's how our group does it too, but I think DRs point is still a valid one.

Its really not. His point is trying to make exception to most every way the game is played because he thinks the first unit should not be able to lock. Your stopping a unit in mid action that it has specific permission to do and trying to apply the results of the action to it. The charge move is what locks you in combat. Claiming that it prevents you from doing so because of the end result has no basis. Its arguing over the same type of thing that First Blood and Purge the Alien wording does.

Secondly, there is no support for Locking occurs at the Fight Sub Phase. None. Show anywhere, where it says locking occurs there. The argument is based around "It can't occur because of the charge move, so therefore it must occur somewhere else, so lets pick a spot."

Fragile wrote:

Secondly, there is no support for Locking occurs at the Fight Sub Phase. None. Show anywhere, where it says locking occurs there. The argument is based around "It can't occur because of the charge move, so therefore it must occur somewhere else, so lets pick a spot."

Actually it's because the definition of LiC is in that section. It does not say that it starts then, it clarifies a rule that always applies, but that's where the text is, so the attempt is to imply that it does not apply until then.

 snooggums wrote:
There isn't any hole in the rules.

If there is an attempt to act, such as a model shooting (pg 12), a unit declaring a charge (pg 20), a unit firing Overwatch (pg 21), or or fighting in close combat (pg 23) the unit or model checks for whether it is locked in combat.

The rules state that the unit cannot declare a charge if they are locked. Once the unit has declared the charge and they are eligible to declare the charge, you follow the charge rules. There is no direction given to check for locked in combat while moving models in that unit.

When the unit being charged decides to fire Overwatch (immediately after the charge is declared) the unit that wants to fire Overwatch must check to see if they are locked in combat. If they were charged by another unit previously and are now in base to base as a result of the first charge, the unit cannot fire Overwatch.

Since the rules do state when to check for locked in combat, the statement on page 23 about not being able to move in the subsection titled 'Who can fight' is simply clarifying that once the unit is in combat they can not make the moves as listed.

So:
Unit A declares a charge on unit B. Unit A checks for LIC and charges if they are not (pg 20).
Unit B may choose to fire Overwatch or not (pg 21).
Unit A reaches Unit B, there is no direction to check LIC during the charge or after so no check is necessary.
Unit C declares a charge on Unit B. Unit C checks for LIC and since they are not, they may declare the charge (pg 20).
Unit B chooses to fire Overwatch on Unit C. Unit B check for LIC (pg 21), and since they are LIC with Unit A they may not fire Overwatch at Unit C.
Combat is fought after checking for eligiblity based on LIC (p23).

The rules already state when to check for locked in combat, based on the actions declared or action taken by the unit. There is zero reason to continue this thread with speculation that a single line taken out of context invalidates the rest of the rules.

I thought the whole point of this was the distinction between "being in base-to-base" and "being locked in combat." Meaning, there is no specification that merely being in base-to-base means that you are locked in combat - the argument was that you're not considered locked in combat until the FIRST time that you check for it AND the answer is YES. So, even if the answer WOULD BE yes at an earlier time, since you haven't asked the question yet the "condition" of being locked in combat wouldn't apply. It would only apply once you ask the question and answer in the affirmative, and then that condition would come into effect.

Or am I not understanding the nature of the dispute?