What do you guys think the most powerful, destructive weapon in the 40k universe?

Lord Nurgle's farts after eating lots of hummus... LOTS OF HUMMUS!

I would say the Necron Celestial Orrery, but that's part of the Ward flubb and we refuse to acknowledge that.


Edited: yeah, Blackstone Fortress

Blackstone Fortress

The warp.
After that Abaddon's Black Stone Fortress and Planet Killer

Faith.

Matt Ward's pen

 Absolon wrote:
Matt Ward's pen

yep, sorry, you're right

Vect's insta-black-holes-in-a-box

 djphranq wrote:
Lord Nurgle's farts after eating lots of hummus... LOTS OF HUMMUS!

I never fart after hummus, Nurgle must have serious bowel issues.

Tyranids may be the most powerful weapon. All Tyranid organisms are bio-engineered weapons that function as a part of the whole swarm which is itself only part of the Hive fleet etc. Nobody knows their origins but one possibility is they were originally designed as a weapon that then ate their designers.

If they were made as a weapon then that would probably make them the worst, though they have a serious desin flaw and that is they've backfired on their creators, eating them all etc.

 Absolon wrote:
Matt Ward's pen

I see Matt Ward's pen, and raise you Robin Cruddance.

Iranna.

Acid. No model can stand against the might of acid. Resin, plastic or metal, they all fall before the wrath of acid.

My Space Marines have the Preferred Enemy (Bieber) rule. Descent of Angels a Furioso Dreadnought with Blood Talons into a swarm of Genestealers aka fan girls.

The most powerful weapon in the 40k universe is...
*insert the ending theme song used in the Spongebob Episode where they train you to work for the Krusty Krabb*

 Absolon wrote:
Matt Ward's pen

QFT and have a +1

Celestial Orrery, no contest ( damn you Ward ).

Other than that: faith. Imperium have endured on it alone for 10.000 years.

Hate and fear for the unkown mixed with the insane amount of zeal found in 40k

Rolling a when you need it.

id say the eldar have very powerful gods

the emperor

some side nots would be necrons gaus for being such a effective weapon. nano bots eat away anything it hits mutiplied by about a million and whatever it hits alone

Planet Killer, unless you count connected Blackstone fortresses as a single weapon then they win

 Zweischneid wrote:
Vect's insta-black-holes-in-a-box

I am still convinced that Vect simply bought a particularly strong vacuum cleaner.

Handheld? Conversion beamer, that gaks crazy.

Celestial Orrery. O ward you rascal.

This...


Because nothing happens without them...the true power of 40k.

Khornes sword sounds pretty epic.

 KingDeath wrote:

 Zweischneid wrote:
Vect's insta-black-holes-in-a-box

I am still convinced that Vect simply bought a particularly strong vacuum cleaner.

Perhaps. But it must've been a darn strong vacuum cleaner if it tricked Phil Kelly into thinking it was a gravitational singularity.

If you're willing to accept certain theories, the tyranids.

 CuddlySquig wrote:
If you're willing to accept certain theories, the tyranids.

Doesn't seem very effective, even if they're a weapon.

They couldn't even take down Macragge.


Just pop a Vect-ian insta-Black Hole in a nearby solar system (doesn't have to be the same one actually) and the entire Macragge system would be history before you could say "swoooosh".

Makes Hive Fleets look like children toys.

the Dollar. or whatever your countrys currency. there is no 40k without money.

Void Dragon. If it's a machine, he can control it.

 Zweischneid wrote:


Doesn't seem very effective, even if they're a weapon.

They couldn't even take down Macragge.

I believe he meant the FULL Tyranid fleet. The tendril that hit Macragge, while powerful, was not even a 1/10000000000 of what some people estimate the number's of Nids there are. If the full fleet hits us, the Galaxy is pretty screwed unless ALL of the races of the galaxy band together to fight them.

But I have to agree the combined might of the Blackstone Fortress

If all the Tyranid fleets entered the galaxy simultaneously, it would start eating itself due to the massive demand for biomass.

Most powerful weapon that isn't a space station/planet/giant ship is probably the black hole in a box or the tachyon arrow, imo.

Celestial Orrery, nothing else comes close.

If we're talking ground-scale, void tech (Imperial void grenades, particularly; a man-portable grenade used for killing Titans is pretty damn powerful). Space-scale, the Blackstone Fortresses were probably the biggest and nastiest weapons in realspace before some funny Necron tricksters came along and convinced everyone to get in a big war and blow them up.

 Brother Captain Alexander wrote:
Celestial Orrery, no contest ( damn you Ward ).

Other than that: faith. Imperium have endured on it alone for 10.000 years.

The Celestial Orrery indeed...to its core it's a ridiculous piece of fluff with no place...phonetically the freaking thing even sounds like Ward just wants us to be saying "ORLY?" when we talk about the stupid thing

Another vote for the Celestial Orrey, I'm just waiting for some dumb inquisitor of the Ordo Xenos to lead an invasion upon Thanatos and upon finding the Celestial Orrey, sneezes.

The World Engine (if it counts as a 'weapon')

or Wraithcannons. Any Guass weaponry really.

 washout77 wrote:

I believe he meant the FULL Tyranid fleet. The tendril that hit Macragge, while powerful, was not even a 1/10000000000 of what some people estimate the number's of Nids there are. If the full fleet hits us, the Galaxy is pretty screwed unless ALL of the races of the galaxy band together to fight them.

Um? Source?

The one hitting Macragge was one of the largest hive fleets known and also the first with the full advantage of surprise. By and large, the dozend or so Hive Fleets seen so far, each one has been around as powerful as a Space Marines Chapter... the larger ones slightly more, the smaller ones slightly less. They've repeatedly been fought back by things the scale of a Craft World or a Space Marine Chapter.

Sure, there could be 1000000000000 times as many Nids out there. There could also be 10000000000000000000 times as many Tau out there still hidden behind a Warp Storm or 100000000000000 times as many Eldar tucked away in some Webway close off, along with all those Primarchs that are supposed to come back soon. But that is all rather speculative and not representative of that power of the Tyranids as demonstrated in the fluff.

iirc the 6E rulebook states that all of the Tyranid fleets we've seen in the Galaxy thus far have just been the "tip of the spear", so to speak. Just the vanguard fleets.

Celestial Orrery.. unfortunately. It's a stupid piece of fluff anyway, and really shouldn't exist.

 Zweischneid wrote:

 KingDeath wrote:

 Zweischneid wrote:
Vect's insta-black-holes-in-a-box

I am still convinced that Vect simply bought a particularly strong vacuum cleaner.

Perhaps. But it must've been a darn strong vacuum cleaner if it tricked Phil Kelly into thinking it was a gravitational singularity.

After the Dark Eldar codex, i am pretty happy about anything that forces Kelly to think.

Love is the most powerful thing in the 40k universe, no sweat.

faith, the inquistion and the untold billions of fanatics following them.........

Celestial Orrey deffently, it's just makes no proper since in 40k, oh look, chaos can't take terra, poof! What terra

 40kSpartan wrote:
Celestial Orrey deffently, it's just makes no proper since in 40k, oh look, chaos can't take terra, poof! What terra

Again, Vect's black holes have the same destructive potential. A black hole, after all, is the result of a thermonuclear supernova. But unlike the Celestial Orrey, which needs an entire Crownworld to host and is a unique, one-thing-only-weapon, Vect has plenty of Black Holes and can hide them in his dinner jacket.

 Zweischneid wrote:

 40kSpartan wrote:
Celestial Orrey deffently, it's just makes no proper since in 40k, oh look, chaos can't take terra, poof! What terra

Again, Vect's black holes have the same destructive potential. A black hole, after all, is the result of a thermonuclear supernova. But unlike the Celestial Orrey, which needs an entire Crownworld to host and is a unique, one-thing-only-weapon, Vect has plenty of Black Holes and can hide them in his dinner jacket.

It's probably the size of the black hole box as it says with your fingertips a star can go supernovaand is only on a crownworld because it is so valuable and image if orks or man got hold of it, bye bye galaxy

 Zweischneid wrote:

 40kSpartan wrote:
Celestial Orrey deffently, it's just makes no proper since in 40k, oh look, chaos can't take terra, poof! What terra

Again, Vect's black holes have the same destructive potential. A black hole, after all, is the result of a thermonuclear supernova. But unlike the Celestial Orrey, which needs an entire Crownworld to host and is a unique, one-thing-only-weapon, Vect has plenty of Black Holes and can hide them in his dinner jacket.

A black hole can be formed by anything with mass if compressed into a small enough space (theoretically), but the size of it's gravity well would be limited to whatever it's gravity well was prior to being compressed. I think Vect probably has a bunch of black holes from compressed matter in boxes rather than a fethin' star born singularity in a box (in which case, pretty much everything in the area that was the star's gravity well would be royally fethed instead of the just individual receiver of the singularity in a box).

If by powerful you meant destructive power, that Celestial Orrery or a Blackstone fortress 's pretty much it.

If by powerful you meant that it will work forever and never let you down wherever you are and you can always count on it, then faith ties with the humble lasgun.

 King Pariah wrote:


A black hole can be formed by anything with mass if compressed into a small enough space (theoretically), but the size of it's gravity well would be limited to whatever it's gravity well was prior to being compressed. I think Vect probably has a bunch of black holes from compressed matter in boxes rather than a fethin' star born singularity in a box (in which case, pretty much everything in the area that was the star's gravity well would be royally fethed instead of the just individual receiver of the singularity in a box).

Well, if it is indeed a black hole, it needs - by definition - enough gravitational pull to prevent light from escaping over the event horizon.

That needs a star's mass at the very least. Infact, in needs the gravity of a LARGE start (otherwise all you get is a white dwarf (no pun)).

The mass of Terra's (Earth's) sun + all the planets in it probably wouldn't suffice.

I don't know a ton about the fluff but,

Overall: Whatever cannon etc. they use for Exterminatus.

Soldier Weapon: Ork Shokk Attack Gun. Essentially rips a hole in reality. Opens a portal through the warp with the exit being inside the target. Snotling is sent through and driven insane then proceeds to claw and bite his way out of the target in a frenzy. Not bad considering it's probably made from scrap metal and bits of wire wrapped in duct tape.

Out of the hand-held weaponry probably the rail gun and rifles.

The Planet-Killer: it kills planets.

 Zweischneid wrote:

 washout77 wrote:

I believe he meant the FULL Tyranid fleet. The tendril that hit Macragge, while powerful, was not even a 1/10000000000 of what some people estimate the number's of Nids there are. If the full fleet hits us, the Galaxy is pretty screwed unless ALL of the races of the galaxy band together to fight them.

Um? Source?

The one hitting Macragge was one of the largest hive fleets known and also the first with the full advantage of surprise. By and large, the dozend or so Hive Fleets seen so far, each one has been around as powerful as a Space Marines Chapter... the larger ones slightly more, the smaller ones slightly less. They've repeatedly been fought back by things the scale of a Craft World or a Space Marine Chapter.

Sure, there could be 1000000000000 times as many Nids out there. There could also be 10000000000000000000 times as many Tau out there still hidden behind a Warp Storm or 100000000000000 times as many Eldar tucked away in some Webway close off, along with all those Primarchs that are supposed to come back soon. But that is all rather speculative and not representative of that power of the Tyranids as demonstrated in the fluff.

I don't really agree with what he said, I was just re-phrasing it. But, I can give a source. I don't have a Nid codex on me, but in the 6th Edition BRB, page 215, Tyranid Section "The Hive Fleets" : "Unbeknownst to the Imperium, the threat is of an even greater magnitude, for the bulk of the Tyranids have not yet reached the Imperium's galaxy, their masses still strewn out across the void. So immeasurably large is the invasion fleet that its furthest stretched tentacles alone gave entered the IoM's space. Each is but a splinter of that single monstrous host, The Hive Mind"

So yeah, a source. Again, I don't really agree with him but *shrug*

I guess the most powerful creature is basically Kaldor Draigo. He is basically Empy as he commands the full might of the IOM (he is the oldest Supreme Grandmaster of the Grey Knights, which means he is a High Lord whenever he is done vandalizing the Gardens of Eden, I meant Nurgle). And if you disagrees with him you get your brain splattered for knowing about him. Of course in physical terms he is not.

Anything that can kill a god. That Holocaust psychic power might be able to do it, and (I believe) the Anathame might be able to as well. All the other stuff? Can't kill a god...

Where is all this balls-deep man-love for Vecht's black-hole-in-a-box coming from? It was unleashed in Commoragh, if I recall, and it was only strong enough to blow up the building Vecht's rival was in. H-how in God's name does that make it a more impressive weapon than a machine that can instantly supernova any star in the Galaxy?

Oh I know
Share Holders

On a more serious note.
Probably the Black Stone Fortresses.

SoB blood - you kill one (just for kicks), then you kill another and smear their blood over your body so no boogeyman can touch you....
advice:
-put on a pair of good fitting latex gloves before you apply
-for spray on "holy blood" products apply using a slow, solid and fluid downward motion unless otherwise instructed on the bottle.
-allow the product to dry as directed, typically 30 or so minutes. In this time, avoid sitting down or donning clothes as this may smear your "holy blood" product.

^lol.

Question: what do the Blackstone Fortresses do?

Planet-scale Weapon: the Eversor assassin.

The humble guardsman with his las rifle in near infinite numbers

Necron Pylon. Blocks the warp, fells titans, and can take out ships in orbit. Not bad for a seemingly run of the mill creation of the Necrons.

BlaxicanX wrote:
Where is all this balls-deep man-love for Vecht's black-hole-in-a-box coming from? It was unleashed in Commoragh, if I recall, and it was only strong enough to blow up the building Vecht's rival was in. H-how in God's name does that make it a more impressive weapon than a machine that can instantly supernova any star in the Galaxy?

Vect can shut off parts of Commoragh if he wants.I don't recall exactly how it's described, but it stopped Daemons from getting through so it's a pretty potent defence. Also, why do you assume the effect of the Celestial Orrery is instantaneous? All it says is that it causes stars to go supernova millenia before their time. Not very specific so it could take a great deal of time. It also leads to rather significant side effects when used, so I don't think you'd be able to use it a great deal without suffering for it.

BlaxicanX wrote:
Where is all this balls-deep man-love for Vecht's black-hole-in-a-box coming from? It was unleashed in Commoragh, if I recall, and it was only strong enough to blow up the building Vecht's rival was in. H-how in God's name does that make it a more impressive weapon than a machine that can instantly supernova any star in the Galaxy?

Because it's a friggin Black Hole.

The fact that it actually was "contained" on top of it and didn't wipe out Commoragh and the entire Dark Eldar race makes it, if anything, even more scary (or simply an example of clueless GW-writers).

But if you can contain a black hole in a birthday box than, you know, you can also instantly supernova any star in the Galaxy! And you don't need a Crownworld for it either. And it is actually written to occur instantaneous, unlike that Necron weapon.

 Absolon wrote:
Matt Ward's pen

The Dark Emperor is worse. No matter how many of his Space Marine chapters you destroy, he'll still show up with you leaders and sign a peace treaty.

And that's another unsuspecting threat that has had Dark Emperor/SlurmKrieg dragged into it.

Huzzah!

But I'd probably agree with others, and say the Blackstone Fortresses.

Time.

One Eldar in a party mood, at the right place, at the right time.

Viod whales, a hammer, the shiny red button that activates the exturminautis (in hands of inquisition), oh and apparently that one terminator that Horus killed.

p.s. Ascalam your post make me happy mainly because the eldar rainy day theory is one of my favorite 40k stories

Vect's singularity-in-a-box is a frightful weapon of focused destruction. On a galactic scale however, being able to make any and all stars supernova is by far much more destructive than those boxes of Vect's. Also, considering the range of mass effected by Vect's black-hole-in-a-box, the black hole had to have been made by something with relatively little mass, I mean, it would definitely surpass the Planck mass but no where near a stars. A black hole's gravity is no stronger than that of any other object of the same mass (in other words, if our Sun found a way to turn into a black hole, Earth would not be sucked in, rather it would continue to orbit in the same path it does today. Hell, Mercury wouldn't even get sucked in. The only things that would - for certain - get sucked in would be anything that crossed the event horizon which would have a measly 6 km diameter. Otherwise, it'd have precisely the same gravitational pull as it did while it was a star burning ever so brightly).

Handheld? Vortex grenades. From the Apocalypse book: "The most potent man-portable weapon in the galaxy."

 King Pariah wrote:
if our Sun found a way to turn into a black hole, Earth would not be sucked in, rather it would continue to orbit in the same path it does today. Hell, Mercury wouldn't even get sucked in. The only things that would - for certain - get sucked in would be anything that crossed the event horizon which would have a measly 6 km diameter. Otherwise, it'd have precisely the same gravitational pull as it did while it was a star burning ever so brightly).

Our Sun cannot become a Black Hole (without sucking in a lot more mass).

It does not have enough mass, even compressed, to prevent light from crossing the Event Horizon. You need a lot more mass than is currently available in Earth's solar system to create a Black Hole.

Presumably, if Earth's sun goes supernova, it would collapse to a White Dwarf.

Micro-Black-Holes of around the Planck Mass don't suck anything into them to begin with, so they couldn't be used as a weapon in the way described by the Dark Eldar Codex. Any self-sustainable Black Hole would start at about ~10 MSun minimum (and Vect doesn't strike me as the guy who's going for the small stuff).

The Angry Marine's Battle Barge the Litany of Litany's Litanies.
It's a flying fortress filled with the most terrifying and destructive monstrosities ever witnessed by man or alien.

Eldar D-Cannon, nothing like ripping open real space and tearing someone apart in the warp.

But on a larger scale, Matt Ward's pen could destroy the entire galaxy.

 Zweischneid wrote:


But if you can contain a black hole in a birthday box than, you know, you can also instantly supernova any star in the Galaxy!

The most powerful weapon? Why a bolter and chainsword of course! Any weapon wielded by one of the chosen wolves of Russ is far deadlier than anything else!

A keg of fungus rum, and the effects on ork digestive systems..

Chemical warfare, very nasty

The Virus Outbreak strategy card from back when was pretty nasty too, unless you just happened to be encased in power armour

An Activated Blackstone.

BlaxicanX wrote:

We don't know how the black-hole-in-a-box works. We don't know if it can be calibrated to be stornger or weaker, or even if its actual Dark Eldar tech, or just some ancient artifact Vecht picked up somewhere. The extent of its capabilities that we have seen is that it can blow up a building. That is not > a machine that can make any star in the galaxy explode.

We don't know how a Celestial Array works.

Infact, we know more about Black Holes than we know about pretty much the inner workings of any 40K weapon, including Bolters and Lasguns.

A Black Hole is a gravitational singularity with enough mass to prevent light from escaping the Event Horizon. It also has a demonstrated effect of being able to "suck-in" things. So it is not a largely gravitation free quantum-based effect sometimes called "micro-black-hole" (and neither is it called that in the Codex). Based on this information, it's at least ~10x the mass of the solar system contained in a "birthday present box".

You can most definitely wipe out a solar system (and a few neighboring along with it) with this. No maybe, no hypothetical, no whatsoever.

If the Vect/Dark Eldar have technology to "contain" the effect on top of having that Black Hole in the first place, that only makes in even more scary, not less so.
Unlike bullets, etc..., the trick (and technological wizardry) with this how to NOT wipe out a minor spiral arm of the galaxy by accident.

Except, we don't know if Vecht "has" the technology to contain the effect. It's never stated to be Dark Eldar technology; in fact it's origin, or an explanation of how it works, is not offered at all, a fact you seem to be trying really hard to avoid.

The weapon has been shown to be capable of destroying roughly a city. That is not superior to blowing up a star, or even a planet with a cyclonic torpedo.

BlaxicanX wrote:
Except, we don't know if Vecht "has" the technology to contain the effect. It's never stated to be Dark Eldar technology; in fact it's origin, or an explanation of how it works, is not offered at all, a fact you seem to be trying really hard to avoid.

The weapon has been shown to be capable of destroying roughly a city. That is not superior to blowing up a star, or even a planet with a cyclonic torpedo.

Does it matter if "Dark Eldar" have the technology or not? Necron's certainly no longer have the technology to build a Celestial Array. Noone has the technology anymore to build a Blackstone Fortress.

Vect has that weapon and the question was what is the most deadly weapon.

Yes, it has been shown to be capable of destroying a city. And it has been said to be a Black Hole, which you keep ignoring. If Vect can somehow limit the effect of a Black Hole to a city block, that is impressive. But it is still a Black Hole and it would destroy entire clusters of stars if Vect didn't do anything at all to limit the effect. Simply by being a Black Hole, it's potential destruction is by definition much greater.

It's like someone using a TnT to clean his teeth without getting hurt. It's a most impressive feat, but it doesn't change the fact that TnT used with less precision would likely blow your head off.

Yes, it matters if it's Vecht's tech or not, because the burden of proof is on you to prove that the weapon has a greater damage potential than what has been shown to us. How do you know Vecht is the one who limited the effect of the black hole? How do you know it wasn't created by the Old Ones, or some other alien civilization, and all he did was find it somewhere, and then later hit the switch? How do you even know if the casket can be calibrated to various levels of intensity? How do you know that destroying a block isn't the maximum the weapon's failsafe allows it to go, in case it gets turned on by accident somewhere?

BlaxicanX wrote:
Yes, it matters if it's Vecht's tech or not, because the burden of proof is on you to prove that the weapon has a greater damage potential than what has been shown to us. How do you know Vecht is the one who limited the effect of the black hole? How do you know it wasn't created by the Old Ones, or some other alien civilization, and all he did was find it somewhere, and then later hit the switch? How do you even know if the casket can be calibrated to various levels of intensity? How do you know that destroying a block isn't the maximum the weapon's failsafe allows it to go, in case it gets turned on by accident somewhere?

Because nothing in the text says this is so. Why did the the authors stress that it is a Black Hole, if it is but a weapon of forgotten technology used to raze the odd building. They could've just written "Vect used an ancient alien weapon of unknown origins to kill his rival". They didn't. They wrote he used a BLACK HOLE!!! That seems to suggest rather strongly that he has a weaponized Black Hole!!!! It makes no sense whatsoever for the author to call it a Black Hole if it isn't.. after all.. a Black Hole. He could have used a Vortex Grenade or something. Would've worked as well in the story without the Black Hole being mentioned.

And yes, there might be failsafes, etc, settings no one alive could deactive. But those would apply equally to most of the other weapons listed in this discussion. Blackstone Fortress, Celestial Array, etc.. .

As far as I know, none of these have destroyed anything in the fluff yet. How do you know that a Blackstone Fortress could harm as much as a fly?

 Zweischneid wrote:


As far as I know, none of these have destroyed anything in the fluff yet. How do you know that a Blackstone Fortress could harm as much as a fly?

Because Abaddon blew up stars and planets with them during the Gothic War. Would you like me to quote from the BFG rulebook?

Out of interest, where are folks getting their information on a minimum mass for a black hole? Minimum density, yes, but as far as I was aware you can have a black hole of any mass. If it's quite small, it'll 'evapourate' due to Hawking radiation. Maybe the Box of Tricks stops this happening long enough for a small Black Hole to be used as a weapon?

Phil Kelly must have asked Matt Ward what crazy weapon Vect could have.which is why they have the Black-Hole-in-a-Box. We still have to remember that the Warhammer 40k Universe is NOT our universe. Its a parallel one set in the far flung future. The names of certain things and phenomena may be the same but that does not mean that the laws and theories of physics that we have today apply to those in W40k. I agree that, if the circumstances were the same, it would indeed be impressive but with scifi we have to give the authors certain freedoms.

Other than the inevitable coming of The End by Matt Wards pen, I believe staying alive and healthy is the strongest weapon in 40k. If you're alive another day then that's one more day you can spend killing your enemies.

Graphite wrote:
Out of interest, where are folks getting their information on a minimum mass for a black hole? Minimum density, yes, but as far as I was aware you can have a black hole of any mass. If it's quite small, it'll 'evapourate' due to Hawking radiation. Maybe the Box of Tricks stops this happening long enough for a small Black Hole to be used as a weapon?

No. Because a micro-black-hole doesn't have the gravity to "suck" in things. It would need several Gs of gravity to pull a (near-)Human with something akin to a "sucked-in" effect, no? And at that point, you are well above micro-black-holes. You need "normal" black holes, and those start about at ~10x Msol, simply because any less would not be a Black Hole (i.e. would not have enough mass to prevent light from escaping).

Even ignoring that, why would it be a micro-black hole? Might just as well have been an over-massive black hole. We don't know.

But it seems pointless of Phil Kelly to stress in his text that it is a Black Hole, when he really didn't want it to be a Black Hole, but only some tipsy Quantum Effect. He could've just written the same story with Vect using the Dark Eldar equivalent of highly-effective-TnT. If he went to the great lengths to stress that it was a Black Hole, it seems prudent to assume that he wanted it to be a Black Hole.

Dakka.
Lots o' Dakka Dakka.

I GOT IT! The most powerful weapon in the 41st milleniun was only ever used once during the Horus Heresy! If anyone can guess in five posts or so I'll divert the chocolate I'm sending to miniwargaming to that person.

 Zweischneid wrote:
No. Because a micro-black-hole doesn't have the gravity to "suck" in things. It would need several Gs of gravity to pull a (near-)Human with something akin to a "sucked-in" effect, no? And at that point, you are well above micro-black-holes. You need "normal" black holes, and those start about at ~10x Msol, simply because any less would not be a Black Hole (i.e. would not have enough mass to prevent light from escaping).

Well... sort of. If the "Thing in a box" had a mass of, say, the Earth, and you were sitting in the same room as it, it would "suck" you in - a 9.81m/s/s, unless you could run away from it at greater than the escape velocity of your current distance away. If you say that the room is REALLY BIG (hey, we're in Magic Space Elf city, why not?), i.e. the radius of the Earth across and it's at the far side, you need to be running at 11.2 km/s to get away from it. Otherwise you'll fall towards it, and eventually get close enough that the escape velocity is now higher than the speed of light, i.e. the event horizon. Tidal forces will probably have killed you long before that, though.

Eldar are quick, but I don't see them running away at over 11.2km/s. So you'd only really need to have a relatively small black hole, certainly less massive than the earth. From a quick calculation, if you can run at 50km/h, i.e. faster than Usian Bolt, and you open a box at arms length, about 1m, according to:

escape velocity = sqrt(2GM/r)

The mass required to drag you in is 1.45 E9 tonnes, or roughly equivalent to a steel cube 570m each side. Not really THAT big.

enooNaMI wrote:
I GOT IT! The most powerful weapon in the 41st milleniun was only ever used once during the Horus Heresy! If anyone can guess in five posts or so I'll divert the chocolate I'm sending to miniwargaming to that person.

.....
Mind Bullets?


seriously though
I would say the most powerful weapons in the M41 are the blackstone fortresses or perhaps the necron pylons on Cadia, they do hold back the combined forces of all four chaos gods and their minions, no?
Of course I don't have the wealth of fluff knowledge that others in this thread have, so I could have missed a thing or two.

Alternatively, Orks are the most potent weapon, not to mention they make things happen by believing them to be true. Red wunz go fasta and all that.

 Zachariel wrote:

Alternatively, Orks are the most potent weapon,

I read through this whole thread so I could say "Orks" and it was in the last post.

Not some Orks, or even a lot of Orks. Nothing can stop all the Orks. Nothing.

They are an engineered weapon that is fueled by their own victories and sustained by their losses. There's no going backwards against Orks.

Graphite wrote:

 Zweischneid wrote:
No. Because a micro-black-hole doesn't have the gravity to "suck" in things. It would need several Gs of gravity to pull a (near-)Human with something akin to a "sucked-in" effect, no? And at that point, you are well above micro-black-holes. You need "normal" black holes, and those start about at ~10x Msol, simply because any less would not be a Black Hole (i.e. would not have enough mass to prevent light from escaping).

Well... sort of. If the "Thing in a box" had a mass of, say, the Earth, and you were sitting in the same room as it, it would "suck" you in - a 9.81m/s/s, unless you could run away from it at greater than the escape velocity of your current distance away. If you say that the room is REALLY BIG (hey, we're in Magic Space Elf city, why not?), i.e. the radius of the Earth across and it's at the far side, you need to be running at 11.2 km/s to get away from it. Otherwise you'll fall towards it, and eventually get close enough that the escape velocity is now higher than the speed of light, i.e. the event horizon. Tidal forces will probably have killed you long before that, though.

Eldar are quick, but I don't see them running away at over 11.2km/s. So you'd only really need to have a relatively small black hole, certainly less massive than the earth. From a quick calculation, if you can run at 50km/h, i.e. faster than Usian Bolt, and you open a box at arms length, about 1m, according to:

escape velocity = sqrt(2GM/r)

The mass required to drag you in is 1.45 E9 tonnes, or roughly equivalent to a steel cube 570m each side. Not really THAT big.

Again, why would Kelly make it a point stressing it is a Black Hole, when all he meant was an extreme exception towards the lowest possible end. If he just said Black Hole, it seems reasonable to assume that he meant a Black Hole similar to 99.8% of all Black Holes out there, not an extreme exception such as a micro-black hole (or an over-massive black hole).

Yes, it could be a tiny black hole with the mass barely that of earth. It could also be an over-massive black hole with a mass > 50% of the galaxy it is situated in it, many trillion times the mass of Sol. There is no indication towards either. If no qualifications were made, it seems reasonable to assume that it's an "average" Black Hole.

The most powerful weapon ever used in 40k was that singular energy bolt the Emperor used to kill Horus. You can have all your Black Holes and Laser Cannons and thermonuclear missiles but as long as you exist in the Warp you can be brought back by any God-like entity that can manipulate the Warp enough. The Emperor didn't just kill Horus with that bolt, he literally erased Horus' existence in the Warp. A weapon powerful enough to destroy a quad blessed Daemon Primarch in full Daemon-Power Armour in both the physical and ethereal realms.

 Zweischneid wrote:
Because nothing in the text says this is so.

It doesn't say that it can be calibrated to have a larger destructive radius either; which is the point. Double-standards are not a valid argument.

Why did the the authors stress that it is a Black Hole, if it is but a weapon of forgotten technology used to raze the odd building.

It's stated as a "casket containing the unstable essence of a black hole". Anyway, you're committing a begging the question fallacy here. That it's a black hole is irrelevant because it's specifically noted within the text that A. It's contained within the casket, and B. it's damage was restricted to that one city. Therefore, the burden of proof is on you to prove that the weapon can be calibrated to have a bigger destructiveness potential then what we've already seen.

And yes, there might be failsafes, etc, settings no one alive could deactive. But those would apply equally to most of the other weapons listed in this discussion. Blackstone Fortress, Celestial Array, etc.. .

As far as I know, none of these have destroyed anything in the fluff yet. How do you know that a Blackstone Fortress could harm as much as a fly?

Because, as mentioned above by the other poster, the Blackstone Fortress has been stated to be capable of blowing up a planet, and the Celestial Orrary has been stated to be capable of blowing up a sun. More pertinently, you specifically made the claim that the casket is a more powerful weapon than any of these other weapons; thus the burden is on you to prove this assertion. I'm not sure why I have to ask you to prove this assertion a fourth time, but this is it.

BlaxicanX wrote:

 Zweischneid wrote:
How do you know that a Blackstone Fortress could harm as much as a fly?

Because, as mentioned above by the other poster, the Blackstone Fortress has been stated to be capable of blowing up a planet,

It's capabilities are a fact. During the Gothic War, Blackstone Fortresses destroyed a star. The Planet Killer.

 Zweischneid wrote:

Again, why would Kelly make it a point stressing it is a Black Hole, when all he meant was an extreme exception towards the lowest possible end. If he just said Black Hole, it seems reasonable to assume that he meant a Black Hole similar to 99.8% of all Black Holes out there, not an extreme exception such as a micro-black hole (or an over-massive black hole).

Because GW employees are very, very bad with numbers and science. I once calculated that according to the originally described population of Necromunda from the Confrontation game that never got released, they'd breathe all the oxygen out of the planets atmosphere within about 1000 years.

Anyway, I'm just in this debate because I find physics type things fun and wanted to work out a vaguely sane way that turning on a black hole would destroy only a limited area. From a Dark Eldar point of view, watching the victims try to run away from the thing and failing would also be hilarious. Yes, Kelly probably did mean a collapsed star, which is a stupidly destructive thing to level a building with but not enough to wipe out the galaxy. Generally speaking, it'll wipe out one other star in a binary system, which is how we found the things in the first place if I recall. Then they just sit there, being heavy.

enooNaMI wrote:
The most powerful weapon ever used in 40k was that singular energy bolt the Emperor used to kill Horus.

I agree with enooMaMI, but I'd like to expand it to the Emperor's mind in general. If he can hold back the combined power of all 4 chaos gods simultaneously and mostly prevent them from flooding the material realm with daemons, with the power of his mind alone, direct ships through the warp (with the help of the astronomican) and still find spare psychic potential to empower his most faithful minions when they require it, all whilst on some serious life support, think about what he could do if he focused all of his mental might on one thing (the Horus-felling energy bolt is an example of this I suppose).

The best hand weapon is either the Shokk Attack Gun or a Conversion Beamer.

 Zweischneid wrote:

Again, why would Kelly make it a point stressing it is a Black Hole, when all he meant was an extreme exception towards the lowest possible end. If he just said Black Hole, it seems reasonable to assume that he meant a Black Hole similar to 99.8% of all Black Holes out there, not an extreme exception such as a micro-black hole (or an over-massive black hole).

Yes, it could be a tiny black hole with the mass barely that of earth. It could also be an over-massive black hole with a mass > 50% of the galaxy it is situated in it, many trillion times the mass of Sol. There is no indication towards either. If no qualifications were made, it seems reasonable to assume that it's an "average" Black Hole.

Not that Kelly is likely to know this, but primordial black holes are one possible theory to explain dark matter. If true, they would be much more common than large black holes as something like 73% of the visible universe is dark matter.

Also, gamma ray bursts are possibly explained by micro black holes that occur when high energy particles collide in our atmosphere, in which case these sorts of tiny black holes would be even more common.

What is the primary difference between a micro/primordial black hole and traditional black hole? One is more or less stable, and the other is not. All black holes emit radiation at a rate inversely proportional to their mass, so very small black holes evaporate due to radiation emission extremely quickly. This is why micro black holes created in our atmosphere are not a threat to us, and the same reason why any potential black holes created by the Large Hadron Collider are also not a threat.

And why I agree this is probably not what Kelly meant, it should be noted that the excerpt talking about the black hole in a box does state it is unstable, which would point to it being a black hole of lesser destructive power.

I am curious to know if the codex states how Vect avoids dying in his own black hole as well? People forget that a black hole would not pull you much faster than the same object would have done until you are already close to it. It seems to me a weapon like this would need to be fired at stationary targets unless the black hole was massive enough to simply envelop everything, which leaves the question of how Vect plans to escape it.

Ultimately, there is not much competition between a black hole and a super nova. People hear black hole and they think super destructive, but a black hole (unless absolutely enormous) is not going to threaten more than a single planet or perhaps a star system. A supernova however, could threaten earth from upto 30 light-years away. The Ordovician-Silurian mass extinction could have possibly been caused by this, although it was hypothesized to have been caused by an even larger hypernova ~600 light-years away. Wiki says there isn't enough evidence, and climate change might have been likely, but it's still scary. 600 light-years is a huge radius. So again, there is really no competition here.

The warp (or the people that use it) but that's not really a weapon

Insanity.

Tesseract Labyrinths are quite powerful. i can imagine a big enough one would just suck a planet out of existance.

 KingDeath wrote:

 Zweischneid wrote:
Vect's insta-black-holes-in-a-box

I am still convinced that Vect simply bought a particularly strong vacuum cleaner.

Lol. I wish I had one of those.

autopistols for sure!

I love all the forum posts asking who/what is the best/strongest etc. because that only depends on how you view it.
If you're a ultramarine fan, Macragge obviously is the best character, but when you play nids, it's the swarmlord.
If you read the codexes closely you'll see that EVERYTHING is THE best, nothing can beat it.
nobody can help it, but it's still funny as hell seeing you people discuss it

 HumeyKillar wrote:
autopistols for sure!

I love all the forum posts asking who/what is the best/strongest etc. because that only depends on how you view it.
If you're a ultramarine fan, Macragge obviously is the best character, but when you play nids, it's the swarmlord.
If you read the codexes closely you'll see that EVERYTHING is THE best, nothing can beat it.
nobody can help it, but it's still funny as hell seeing you people discuss it

EXALT +1

And my I add, its even more funny how some dudes respond when someone skips their creature or when haters respond with "comparision " who has bigger.....

 Iranna wrote:

 Absolon wrote:
Matt Ward's pen

I see Matt Ward's pen, and raise you Robin Cruddance.

Iranna.

I see you Robin Cruddace and raise you a black irish leper

Well the birth of Slaanesh was a pretty impressive event. Maybe psykers being decadent is up there? Beyond that the thing what shattered the catan seems exciting.

 Lucre wrote:
Well the birth of Slaanesh was a pretty impressive event. Maybe psykers being decadent is up there? Beyond that the thing what shattered the catan seems exciting.

An Eldar who has access to coccaine.

I call C. S. Gotos literature.

 LlamaAgility wrote:
I call C. S. Gotos literature.

That'd be toilet paper.

 King Pariah wrote:

 LlamaAgility wrote:
I call C. S. Gotos literature.

That'd be toilet paper.

POWERFUL toilet paper. A loo roll with a multilaser!

DE shattershard?

Draigo. He's practically more OP than the emperor. You want me to walk through the warp which is impossible because it cannot hold any physical matter? No problem!

Warp can and does hold physical matter dude

The CSM live in the Warp, on Daemon worlds.

Warboss Tuska led a waagh into the Eye of Terror, and rampaged all over the place, until he finally found a place where the fighting never stops. He's still there

Space Hulks drift through the warp, and space ships use it to travel quickly from place to place.


Draigo's fluff though, i'll agree, is Ward fanwank at it's worst , or a very very poorly executed attempt at describing a futile quest (for those that will inevitably argue this).

welshhoppo wrote:
Love is the most powerful thing in the 40k universe, no sweat.

This. Huey Lewis even confirmed it in Back to The Future

 Ascalam wrote:
Warp can and does hold physical matter dude

The CSM live in the Warp, on Daemon worlds.

Warboss Tuska led a waagh into the Eye of Terror, and rampaged all over the place, until he finally found a place where the fighting never stops. He's still there

Space Hulks drift through the warp, and space ships use it to travel quickly from place to place.


Draigo's fluff though, i'll agree, is Ward fanwank at it's worst , or a very very poorly executed attempt at describing a futile quest (for those that will inevitably argue this).

Physical matter can exist within the Warp, but the Warp itself holds no physical form, so Draigo should have suffocated or been ripped apart or something the moment he went in there. The Eye of Terror is a fusion of the real universe and the Warp, which is why there are planet there in the first place to become daemon worlds.