So, let's go ahead and get this out of the way. THIS IS NOT A DISCUSSION OVER WHETHER FORGEWORLD IS 40K "OFFICIAL" OR NOT. This is a thread simply asking for ways to pitch the idea of trying out forgeworld with people who normally would refuse to play it. PLEASE, don't let this devolve into another argument.

Anyways, most of my local stores do not allow FW. No real particular reason, they just simply don't seem interested. I've been wanting to use the new Armored Battlegroup list in Imperial Armor 1 volume 2, and was trying to think of some ways to get people interested in playing it. All I've come up with so far is...

1. I need the physical book (obviously) and need to be completely transparent and allow them to look through it whenever they wish.

2. Not taking the crazy stuff for a while, simply to keep from leaving a bad taste in people's mouths. Things like sabre platforms, vultures (as much as that pains me to not take them), and the artillery platforms would be saved for the more "competitive" games, or tournaments.

3. Having everything painted up to show that I put the work in to make a dedicated list. For example, if I'm running a commissar tank, it better have a Commissar leaning out of the top and be painted like a commissar tank would be.

4. Encourage them to try FW units as well. Since most likely they won't have them right off the bat, allow them to proxy whatever they wanted to use. After all, if I want to use it, they should be able to as well.

Are there any other tips people have for helping to get FW accepted in a local area? I'm really more interested in it as a way to vary up my lists and have some fun with modeling. I'm not really looking to add FW to make my army more nasty, I'm just wanting to have some more fun with the game and mix things up.

Although I gotta admit, a command vanquisher with beasthunter shells sounds pretty awesome

This is the problem with forge world

1. It's not easily available
2. It's expensive as hell, have to buy yet another army book
3. It's not "standard" 40k

If you can figure out a way to bypass the first two problems, then the third vanishes with them.

As a casual gamer, why would I want to spend that much money?

As a hardcore competitor, why would I want to use something that's not accepted everywhere, and why use it when my standard stuff is usually better?

This is a complete guess but it seems like the only people FW cater to are those who aren't casual, and aren't super competitive. A sort of in between with a lot of disposable income.

Edit - FW also caters to people who paint much more than they play, forgot about those guys.

Suggest a Mini-Campaign using one of the scenarios out of the back of one of the books.
If you have a [or multiple] copy, just leave it on the table for people look through.
Find one other player who is interested and play one of the scenarios out of the back of the book.
Look into the Horus Heresy Books, some of that stuff looks so cool.

 Necroshea wrote:
This is the problem with forge world
As a casual gamer, why would I want to spend that much money?

As a casual gamer, because they're amazing models. Also offers more variety in our gaming group, where a lot of people play IG, so having a different IG ruleset is pretty neat.

Then again, never had issues regarding using Forgeworld (even with proxies, since otherwise I don't have 1 HQ and 2 Troops).

I would buy and play FW items in a heartbeat, if they werent UK only and bloody expensive to get here.

Honestly;

I spearheaded the introduction of FW to my LGS this past year; much due to my love of Elysians.

I did two things.

1. I regularly inserted units into discussions. Not forcively or anything, but just like;

"Yeah I mean SM tanks are decent, but level some niches unfilled."

"The whirlwind isn't horrible, especially when you have the option to run it as a Hyperios."

"Hyperios? What's it do?"

"Blah blah, check it out right here."

The more you demonstrate FW as a gap-filling venue, and show that it's less of a route to expensive power-units, acceptance is pretty easy.

2. Ran some bigger games against more FW-friendly players. Now, this requires you to be a pretty effective player, but you need to largely control the flow of the game, making sure that it is both fun, and not a beat-down for the other player. Keep it even, make little slip-ups for the sake of interest.

Show that the list/units are safe and nothing to freak out about, and more importantly: Draw a crowd.

People will want to know about unit X or list Y, and see them in action.

More exposure is more realizations of viability, in this case relating to FW.

Good luck.

(And you have balls to start a thread like this)

Just get them to play a casual game with the model in question. Give them the rules a week in advance, let them mull over it. Then play the game.

Most people that have an irrational fear of Forge World have never even seen the actual rules much less played against them.

Since usually it is a community based problem and not a overall problem

If you join in a new group that doesn’t really use FW stuff, try to weenie them in with simpler things like a russ or land raider variant. Something familiar that will do extra stuff for a justifiable cost would be more accepting I would think.

Also I think letting people read the FW book and getting them interested is important as well. Nothing sucks more than playing against some one with FW models and rules and having them protect there book from others like it was there only child and not let you read the rules for your self. And who knows they may buy or scratch build FW stuff for more flavor.

Luckily my local area is completely accepting of FW models.

Start them out with formations and then slowly work up. Don't run a super heavy if the other side doesn't have one.

If you have a physical copy of the book you want to run, simply let them flick through it. You'd have to be *very* close minded to simply refuse to even have a look.

I was pretty negative about my friend running those Eldar pirate things for a while, but when i had a flick through the codex I realised it was actually very tame, so I let him go for it.

Probably would have been different had he wanted to run certain units/vehicles that are pretty blatently OP. Yes it's not fair, because normal 40k has OP things too. But such is life. If you want no holds far ForgeWorld accepetance, the best way is to get them to do forgeworld as well. I'd be happy playing any Forgeworld if I had a DKOK army, or least proxied one. Though they might change their minds after I spam Earthshaker cannons

From my point of view, the issues I have seen with FW stuff boil down into two core points:

1) Improperly managed expectations (oh, I didn't know you were bringing FW).

2) "Have-nots" syndrome.


My question to the OP is this: What's your audience? A private group, or a FLGS?

If you're dealing with a close group of friends, suggest it for next time you play. Pass the books around for everyone to read. Loan them out if you must. Encourage your opponents to proxy stuff (in the beginning)

If you're dealing with a FLGS, then make yourself the FW advocate for the store. Try to talk the store owner into doing monthly orders for the kids who don't have credit cards (with a nominal charge for his time). Volunteer to run scratchbuilding "hobby nights" at the store where you make suggestions and try to help people make their own FW stuff. Get a FW (not 40k) night scheduled. Integrate it into the community. This sets expectations AND it eliminates the have-nots.

Let them have a look at the rules, yes; I find it also helps to point out that the rumors of the unbalanced nature of Forge World models are typically gross exaggerations, you can get far more unbalanced things out of the 'official' published Codexes than you can out of most Forge World books. Finding examples of a Forge World unit that's weaker than something in a Codex (compare Vultures to Vendettas, for instance, price-wise, armament-wise, and transport-capacity-wise) helps a lot.

What I find is the biggest deterrent to using FW in games is that the IG has TONS of stuff, everyone else just has some, I understand a number of the things that the IG can take are Imperium and thus available to SM as well, but it just feels so weighted in favor of the IG.

 CrashCanuck wrote:
What I find is the biggest deterrent to using FW in games is that the IG has TONS of stuff, everyone else just has some, I understand a number of the things that the IG can take are Imperium and thus available to SM as well, but it just feels so weighted in favor of the IG.

That's funny, because as an IG player, I feel the same way, but I'm deterred for the exact opposite reason. IG has tons of stuff, but it's all either stuff that was pushed into the IG codex or stuff that is pretty crappy. LR Annihilator. Arvus Lighter? No thank you. We have the Hades Breaching Drill, the Lightning, and those weapon platform thingies everyone loves more than HWS. We have all the Baneblade and Malcador chassis tanks, but I believe those are all superheavy (and inappropriate for non-apoc play).

Meanwhile, the handful of things that, say, Tau or Eldar have are very few and far between, but pants on head crazy awesome.

Of course, I make this statement having not seen Aeronautica or the re-release of IA1, so things may have changed.

 CrashCanuck wrote:
What I find is the biggest deterrent to using FW in games is that the IG has TONS of stuff, everyone else just has some, I understand a number of the things that the IG can take are Imperium and thus available to SM as well, but it just feels so weighted in favor of the IG.

This is one of the main reasons I'm trying to get it accepted believe it or not. We have a TON of IG players and it's getting really boring playing the same codex over and over again. I'm hoping to get FW accepted so that we have some variety, as other than me, literally every other IG player is a mech commander. I think out of all of us, the non IG players would appreciate it the most, as several have stated it gets boring playing the same army over and over.

If FW got accepted, we could branch out far more. Armored battlegroup, Elysians, DKoK, etc. Maybe people would actually look FORWARD to playing against IG at our store again.

As for what kind of group it is, one store is a very tightknit community, almost like a club (they often go to tournaments using the store's name for their team and banners) Another is a huge FLGS where all manner of people play at. Those are mostly pickup games when I head over there, but they seem to have a pretty strong community as well. And lastly, we have a new GW store in town. The manager is a really cool guy, but I wouldn't really go there for games much, as it's only got 2 tables and is a very small store.

When getting ready for a friendly game tell your opponent that you'd like to try model X from FW in a friendly game.

Show them the stats and talk about it for a few minutes. Perhaps even going so far to discuss how you plan on using it. Make sure the rest of your list isn't a Power Gamer / tournament list.

Hopefully they'll be interested enough to see what happens. Of course, be prepared for that model to take the vast majority of the hits early on.

Personally I'd be interested in seeing anything you wanted to throw down on the table. Regardless, your reaction to the game as a whole is going to help drive their feelings about it. If you're TFG then be prepared for that to be your last game with FW units. If you are fun, and talk about what it's doing in game then you'll go a long ways to having a repeat with more units.

My roommate is an IG player and did get IA Aeronautica, and yeah I though IG was bad enough with undercosted flyers before, now it's rediculous

 CrashCanuck wrote:
My roommate is an IG player and did get IA Aeronautica, and yeah I though IG was bad enough with undercosted flyers before, now it's rediculous

There's no flyer in Aeronautica that's better than a Vendetta, so what's the problem?

The only use I have for FW is for decorative bitz, shoulder pads and oddly enough, autocannon arms for my dreads (why the heck can't Citadel make those goddamn arms instead of making me buy stuff from FW just to give my dreads the proper wargear?!).

Otherwise I'm still very apprehensive about FW. I think it's decent of OP not to bring out the crazy stuff, but the problem is that by giving the nod to FW stuff that isn't perceived to be "crazy", it opens the door to a slippery slope to the other FW stuff that is legitimately "crazy". Because really, how does one qualitatively figure out what in FW is truly "crazy", or not?

 NEWater wrote:
The only use I have for FW is for decorative bitz, shoulder pads and oddly enough, autocannon arms for my dreads (why the heck can't Citadel make those goddamn arms instead of making me buy stuff from FW just to give my dreads the proper wargear?!).

Otherwise I'm still very apprehensive about FW. I think it's decent of OP not to bring out the crazy stuff, but the problem is that by giving the nod to FW stuff that isn't perceived to be "crazy", it opens the door to a slippery slope to the other FW stuff that is legitimately "crazy". Because really, how does one qualitatively figure out what in FW is truly "crazy", or not?

Read the rules for the sabre gun platform, and thou shalt know crazy. Vultures are really good, but I don't think they're too broken. The main reason I wouldn't take them in the beginning is because they're expensive as hell and that they use a LOT of special rules. Things like that tend to leave a bad taste in a person's mouth, so they would stay at home. Breaching drllls used to be crazy, but they got clubbed over the head with a nerf bat till blood seeped out their ears so they're not too bad anymore.

I'm not against bringing stronger units in my FW army, but that would be if the other guy made it implicitly clear that he wanted to have a more "competitive" game, and he's taking FW too. Most of the units though are no different than what you see in a typical codex. For example, I would make heavy use of command and commissar vanquishers, because an armored battlegroup NEEDS them to effectively deal with MC's and enemy armor (unless you're using airpower or things like vets/stormtroopers). Plus, since most of the time they would be run as allies to a foot IG main detachment, the lord commissar tanks would provide invaluable LD to all the squishy guardsmen.

Like I said, I'm not looking to take super face smashing lists to beat people down with. I just want some more variety in my guard army and a reason for me to take my 7+ leman russes. Heck, maybe even give me an excuse to buy some of the beautiful FW turrets they sell.

+ models look really good for the most part
+ add variety

- even more expensive than GW
- mostfly focused on IG
- very variable balance; a lot of units are extremely strong while others seem to be less viable
- can't easily be picked up at a store

If you want others to start with FW, make sure you're playing a more casual environment where people don't bring up cheesy lists and make sure the guys you play with have a big wallet.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
There's no flyer in Aeronautica that's better than a Vendetta, so what's the problem?

Exactly. This is why the whole "IG get everything" argument is kind of weak. Sure, they get lots of units, but in the end it's just a lot of units that join Hellhounds/Sentinels/etc in the "not a Vendetta" pile and never make it into your list. On the other hand, armies like Tau or Eldar that don't have a modern codex with powerful units get fewer total units, but each of them is much more likely to be good enough to make an impact in their list. So the best way to address the "all IG" complaint is to just show the Eldar player the Vendetta and Thunderbolt and how the Thunderbolt is an expensive joke compared to the codex Vendetta, then show them Nightwings and Warp Hunters.


Anyway, my method is simple:

1) Always have the book, and let them read the rules for your stuff before the game. Besides the practical value of having the rules present in case of disputes this also shows that you aren't TFG with a pirated copy of the rules (which may or may not even be current anymore) for the proxy "model" of whatever overpowered unit they could find. Though at minimum you need to bring a printed copy of that pirated pdf, so that you aren't just making stuff up and telling your opponent to trust you.

2) Always have everything painted. People like painted models and, like having the actual book, it helps show that you aren't TFG bringing bare plastic proxies of this "FW" thing you thought would be good at winning games.

3) Put the FW models in your list and don't allow anyone to tell you to remove them. The more you go around asking for permission and being willing to play alternate no-FW lists, the more people treat it as a special non-standard game that needs permission. Instead, my policy is simple: just like I wouldn't give an opponent veto power over my choices between codex units I won't give them veto power over my equally-legal FW units. If someone objects, I won't play against them. If an event doesn't allow FW I won't attend.

FW would probably make my IG better , but the books and models cost so much I dont think it is worth it . If I could order with more people it would bea easier , but closest friends play SW , nids and eldar . And FW either has nothing they want to use , has nothing for their army or it the only thing they want to use is flyers [but they want to use "counts as" DE flyers for those and dont want to buy the books] and am not interested in spending hard cash on stuff others counts as with cheap GW stuff.

I wish FW did more nids stuff and not just marines and IG , my best friends plays or rather played nids , but 5th killed his will to play . He play like 4 games against my IG and some against SW/IG my friend plays and I think he is going to drop the hobby :(

It does depend on your group. If they are already militantly anti-Forge World then you've got an uphill battle in front of you.

Generally speaking though, people operate off implied permissions and choices. If I say, do you want the chocolate or the marshmallow? It's already implied that you will choose one or the other. Of course you still retain the ability to say "neither, I don't like sweets" but the overwhelming majority of people will only select from the presented choices. This is a great technique for getting kids to do things they don't want to do. "Do you want to do the dishes, or tidy your room?" implies that the decision to do chores has already been made. The child can still obviously refuse to do either, but the brain is wired to select one of the presented options, and the child is more likely to choose one of the chores than just refuse outright.

Similarly with Forge World. If you simply present your opponent with your army and list and rules (in the form of the actual book, of course) you're not taking away their ability to refuse a game. They can always do that. What you're doing is implying that they've already decided to play against Forge World. If they want to refuse, they have to use their generic power of refusal that always applies in every game, and most people won't want to do that because it's silly.

It's key, at this point, not to give them any reason to use that generic power of refusal in later games. We have an Armoured Company player in our local group who has tabled just about every other player and recently went undefeated through a campaign we had. It left a bad taste in a lot of peoples mouths, and some people actively complained to the Campaign organiser (who thankfully stuck to his guns and told them not to be such sooks) but that sort of experience can make people say to themselves "I really don't want to do that again". But that falls under the category of considering the enjoyment of your opponent, which you should be doing before every game anyway.

So in practical terms, you just agree to play a game with your opponent like normal, deploy like normal, and generally don't mention anything about Forge World, and certainly don't ask if they're ok with playing against FW units. If they ask "What's that?" you tell them. It's a Sabre platform or whatever. Here's the rules. You can even mention what they are and what they do when you deploy them (or, if keeping them in reserve, then after deployment finishes). "This is a Manticore. It fires a S10, ap4 rocket with a large blast template. This is a Hades Breaching Drill. It burrows under ground, and hits any units it touches with a S10 ap2 large blast, that scatters as normal."

The key is to just present the units as if they were normal units in your codex (because that's exactly what they are) and not to imply that your opponent has any special power of refusal. He retains his normal ability to refuse to play, that applies in every game. He does not get any extra veto powers just because you're using Forge World.

I'd start by lowballing it. Don't bring anything fancy. Show up with a Leman Russ Annihilator or something equally as "low impact" and see how it goes. Then expand from there.

 Necroshea wrote:
1. It's not easily available

Compared to? It's 2012 (almost 2013). International mail order is quite a bit more reliable than it was 20 years ago. What's so difficult about getting FW models? You order them from FW... and then send them to you. End of story.

 Necroshea wrote:
2. It's expensive as hell, have to buy yet another army book

It's not that expensive compared to regular 40K units.

 Necroshea wrote:
3. It's not "standard" 40k

Depending on your point of view, that is. But the OP asked us not to discuss this, so I won't.

 Necroshea wrote:
As a casual gamer, why would I want to spend that much money?

Non sequitur. I'm a 'casual gamer' and I have tons of FW stuff.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 Necroshea wrote:
As a casual gamer, why would I want to spend that much money?

Non sequitur. I'm a 'casual gamer' and I have tons of FW stuff.

Really, it's the casual gamers that WANT to use FW stuff. Competitive players tend to be fine with a "codex-only" house rule because it maintains the nice stable metagame they're used to and ensures that their tournament-winning lists are never in danger of becoming weaker, and would never bother with most FW units anyway since they tend to be weaker than codex options. The people who benefit most from FW rules are "casual" players who are interested in adding variety to their armies and don't really care that, for example, the Thunderbolt they want to use is garbage compared to the Vendetta.

 Kaldor wrote:
It does depend on your group. If they are already militantly anti-Forge World then you've got an uphill battle in front of you.
.

Interesting idea on the first point of how I word it. I'll think about how I can use that.

As for the just not telling them and bringing it to a game anyways, that would definitely not fly. They know the regular IG codex very well. If I were to show up and say "yeah this is a commissar tank, and this is a command tank, and these are regular tanks." they would pack up right then. Not because it's forgeworld so much as I just popped it on them out of the blue.

I'd like to make it accepted so that others can use it as well. I don't want it to develop a stigma.

 MrMoustaffa wrote:
As for the just not telling them and bringing it to a game anyways, that would definitely not fly. They know the regular IG codex very well. If I were to show up and say "yeah this is a commissar tank, and this is a command tank, and these are regular tanks." they would pack up right then. Not because it's forgeworld so much as I just popped it on them out of the blue.

We're not saying to just drop it on the table without explaining properly what it is, we're saying to just state that it's in your list and hand them the rules for it. The reason is simple:

If you present it as "I'd like to use this special thing, will you allow it?" you set it up in a way that they have veto power over it, and would be justified in using it because you're doing something outside the normal rules of the game. You're just conceding defeat for no good reason, and maintaining the idea that FW is something weird and needs special treatment.

If, instead, you present it as "I've chosen this legal option from the options I have available" you set up the more accurate situation: it's part of the game, and their only option is to exercise their "you don't have a gun to my head" option and decline to play you at all. Instead of starting from a weaker position you start from the default assumption that what you're doing is ok (which it is), and put the burden on your opponent to be rude and refuse to play against you. And, more importantly, you start to shift the general opinion from "permission required" to "the decision has been made, either accept it or quit".

You could show with two list and just go:
“I am planning on using this List; it does have some stuff from Forge World I have been wanting to give a try.”
If has a real issue, just pull out your second list, just make sure that the second list has Pask and still use your FW Command Tank as his.

 Peregrine wrote:

 MrMoustaffa wrote:
As for the just not telling them and bringing it to a game anyways, that would definitely not fly. They know the regular IG codex very well. If I were to show up and say "yeah this is a commissar tank, and this is a command tank, and these are regular tanks." they would pack up right then. Not because it's forgeworld so much as I just popped it on them out of the blue.

We're not saying to just drop it on the table without explaining properly what it is, we're saying to just state that it's in your list and hand them the rules for it. The reason is simple:

If you present it as "I'd like to use this special thing, will you allow it?" you set it up in a way that they have veto power over it, and would be justified in using it because you're doing something outside the normal rules of the game. You're just conceding defeat for no good reason, and maintaining the idea that FW is something weird and needs special treatment.

If, instead, you present it as "I've chosen this legal option from the options I have available" you set up the more accurate situation: it's part of the game, and their only option is to exercise their "you don't have a gun to my head" option and decline to play you at all. Instead of starting from a weaker position you start from the default assumption that what you're doing is ok (which it is), and put the burden on your opponent to be rude and refuse to play against you. And, more importantly, you start to shift the general opinion from "permission required" to "the decision has been made, either accept it or quit".

Ok that makes more sense thanks

 Anpu42 wrote:
You could show with two list and just go:
“I am planning on using this List; it does have some stuff from Forge World I have been wanting to give a try.”
If has a real issue, just pull out your second list, just make sure that the second list has Pask and still use your FW Command Tank as his.

You're still presenting it as a choice. Why make it any easier than necessary to allow your opponent to veto your choices? Just bring one list and let them either play the game or be rude and refuse to play because they don't like your army.

And of course if they refuse, don't play them. Even if they're the only other person in the store just pack up your models and go home.

You've got a few good ideas, but this one:

MrMoustaffa wrote:3. Having everything painted up to show that I put the work in to make a dedicated list

Is probably the best of them.

There is a very, very wide gulf between "This is the army I play, but I have to use a different rules set until GW produces an official one" and "I wish I were able to beat people with more powerful units that I can't find in my codex". The former engenders sympathy, like how you can't buy a SoB codex from GW, or how you couldn't buy DE for awhile. Likewise, if you're taking things ONLY from a single source, it does have some air of attempted balance. Taking a DKoK with all of its restrictions is a different thing than just stealing a FW unit to add to your regular guard army. The first is wholesome, the second makes you come across as a powergaming TFG who doesn't feel like he should be bound to the same rules as other people if that's what he needs to win a game.

And really, the impression you create is everything here, as it's hearts and minds you're trying to win. Bringing in something fluffy that looks cool and doesn't behave in an overpowered way will give people a good impression. Power gaming and jockeying for that secret edge will not.

As others have mentioned, doing a campaign wouldn't be a bad idea either, as said special units tend to be incorporated well into the particular missions.


Probably the most important thing I'd make sure you do, though, is to pretend that you're not a guard player for a moment. Guard players salavate over the thousands of options to give them cool and more powerful things. Non-guard players? Not so much. You're only going to engender bitterness and resentment if you're the only one getting cool new stuff, and other people are stuck with little more than just different models for units that they more or less already have. You have new units, they have old ones. You have more powerful units that require FW to access, and they don't. You wonder why there's reluctance.

If you're going to introduce FW, make sure you do it in such a way where EVERYONE can participate in FW in a meaningful way. An optional rules set that creates groups of haves and have-nots is just going to make things worse.

 Ailaros wrote:
Guard players salavate over the thousands of options to give them cool and more powerful things.

You mean "look at 95% of the options, realize that your initial 'that's cool' was wrong and they're worse than the codex options, and go back to Vendettas". FW may have lots of options for IG, but the only reason to use most of them is if you want to bring something different and are willing to accept a drop in power to do it.

Non-guard players? Not so much. You're only going to engender bitterness and resentment if you're the only one getting cool new stuff, and other people are stuck with little more than just different models for units that they more or less already have. You have new units, they have old ones. You have more powerful units that require FW to access, and they don't. You wonder why there's reluctance.

Are you kidding? The armies that get the most benefit from FW are Eldar and Tau. Imperial armies mostly get stuff that's no better (and often worse) than the best codex options, Eldar and Tau get powerful game-changing options like Tetras and Warp Hunters. Seriously, the only reason for Eldar and Tau players to avoid FW is that the age of their codices and likely re-writes in the near future have imposed a general "don't buy anything until the new codex" policy, whether it's FW or new GW kits.

Honestly, the only thing you need your group to get past is the idea that FW rules are OP. There is not a single unit that I’ve seen is OP in any way, barring someone not knowing the unit is in the list.

Host a FW demo game. Make a few small armies (both FW and Codex) setup to fight each other. Even do one on one battles with the units you (or possibly them) want to use. The only way that people will get past the idea is to see it in person. You can explain it to them all day long but it will not change their perception.

 hisdudeness wrote:
Honestly, the only thing you need your group to get past is the idea that FW rules are OP. There is not a single unit that I’ve seen is OP in any way, barring someone not knowing the unit is in the list.

Ever heard of a Sabre Defense Platform?

Really?

A 40-60 point immobile heavy weapon platform (Artillery type) with IG BS and 10 armor is OP? More so when the IG player has to give up normal heavy weapons team slots in the Inf Platoon to get them.

Have you even played against them? I have, both scenario and casual games and have had no more issues against them then another unit.

 hisdudeness wrote:
Really?

A 40-60 point immobile heavy weapon platform (Artillery type) with IG BS and 10 armor is OP? More so when the IG player has to give up normal heavy weapons team slots in the Inf Platoon to get them.

Have you even played against them? I have, both scenario and casual games and have had no more issues against them then another unit.

They're T7 with a 3+ armor save now.

Meh, Still no big deal. Same as any other unit in the game. You know your players and plan for he units they may bring.

The issue most players face is trying to make an all comers list against a narrow set of units (or a tailored list built for your local meta game) . Add in FW and you have to plan for twice as many units. Most players are young and don't like to think on that large a scale so they pull the "FW is not legal or OP" silliness to not have to think too hard.

My suggestion stands, play demo games to show everyone that they are not OP and normally cost more then they are worth on the field. FW units are for the people that want to play more fluff armies or spice up vanilla codex lists.

 Ailaros wrote:

Probably the most important thing I'd make sure you do, though, is to pretend that you're not a guard player for a moment. Guard players salavate over the thousands of options to give them cool and more powerful things. Non-guard players? Not so much. You're only going to engender bitterness and resentment if you're the only one getting cool new stuff, and other people are stuck with little more than just different models for units that they more or less already have. You have new units, they have old ones. You have more powerful units that require FW to access, and they don't. You wonder why there's reluctance.

If you're going to introduce FW, make sure you do it in such a way where EVERYONE can participate in FW in a meaningful way. An optional rules set that creates groups of haves and have-nots is just going to make things worse.

I know you're adamantly anti-FW Ailaros, but I gotta say, IG FW stuff, while having incredible support as far as options go, really doesn't bring much to the table when you compare it to Contemptor Pattern Dreads, Caestus Battle Rams, Tau Tetras, Wraithseers, etc.

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It's not that expensive compared to regular 40K units.

well the books you need to play those units cost a lot and offten units you would want are in more then one book , that kind of a does create a barrier for some people . some people are already leaving the game because their dex arent fun to play . losing because your opponent not only has a better dex[Ig] , but also was given options to build and ally in different types IG , just that he alone can have fun kind of a sucks .

I mean If I rolled up with an armored company army , I doubt anyone would want o play against me . Even if I used no ally and took no vendettas.

 Ailaros wrote:
Guard players salavate over the thousands of options to give them cool and more powerful things. Non-guard players? Not so much.

So basically, this is admitting you've never actually read the Forgeworld rules you dislike? Because this kind of opinion is pretty standard for people who haven't actually read any Forgeworld books.

Guard players get a few dozen options that are worse than the standouts in their codex, and a couple of sub standard alternate army lists.

Non-Guard players get a fewer options, but more that are about the same power level as the standouts in their codex, which makes them more attractive to take.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Makumba wrote:


Automatically Appended Next Post:

It's not that expensive compared to regular 40K units.

well the books you need to play those units cost a lot and offten units you would want are in more then one book , that kind of a does create a barrier for some people

The units are all in two books - Imperial Armour Apocalypse Second Edition and Imperial Armour Aeronautica. Two. Books. Cover. Every. Army.

How about you bring a few different FW options(just 3-4 simple to use ones) and ask a fellow player if he'd like to test a couple of them against you who'll be using the other two? This way you really include the opponent in it, in a positive way.

People at the GW store seem to dislike my Contemptor Dreadnought.

I wonder how they'll feel when I use 2 at 2000pts.

 Peregrine wrote:

You're still presenting it as a choice. Why make it any easier than necessary to allow your opponent to veto your choices? Just bring one list and let them either play the game or be rude and refuse to play because they don't like your army.

And of course if they refuse, don't play them. Even if they're the only other person in the store just pack up your models and go home.

So you're going to show up to a game with dreadnaughts that can drop-pod and assault, and a 25 capacity land-raider with 4 twin-linked lascannons and armoured ceremite? And you'd walk away from the table if they had reservations about this?

I'm sorry but if I encountered this attitude from someone it'd put me off Forgeworld for life.

 BryllCream wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:

You're still presenting it as a choice. Why make it any easier than necessary to allow your opponent to veto your choices? Just bring one list and let them either play the game or be rude and refuse to play because they don't like your army.

And of course if they refuse, don't play them. Even if they're the only other person in the store just pack up your models and go home.

So you're going to show up to a game with dreadnaughts that can drop-pod and assault, and a 25 capacity land-raider with 4 twin-linked lascannons and armoured ceremite? And you'd walk away from the table if they had reservations about this?

I'm sorry but if I encountered this attitude from someone it'd put me off Forgeworld for life.

But if I turn up to a game with 6 Necron fliers, that's different somehow?

I was the one who got everyone to accept fw as a standard at our gaming club.
I always talk to everyone before I order so that all can have a chance
to buy and that was what got everything started at our club.

And since I usually buy a lot it was always free shipping for everyone and that made it a little more affordable.

To have a good chunk of your army turn up on turn 2 and 3 and 2/3 of the time outflanking on the table edge I want you to (thanks to MOTF) and can't even score? Yeah.

6 necron flyers is somewhat TFG. Turning up with Forgeworld units with completely out-there and grossly powerful rules that differ completely from the meta (like the AV 14 with armoured ceremite, that anyone who doesn't have Lance would find *impossible* to destroy, and can store 10 Paladins to boot) and acting like your opponent is being difficult by refusing to play you is definitely tfg.

 BryllCream wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:

You're still presenting it as a choice. Why make it any easier than necessary to allow your opponent to veto your choices? Just bring one list and let them either play the game or be rude and refuse to play because they don't like your army.

And of course if they refuse, don't play them. Even if they're the only other person in the store just pack up your models and go home.

So you're going to show up to a game with dreadnaughts that can drop-pod and assault, and a 25 capacity land-raider with 4 twin-linked lascannons and armoured ceremite? And you'd walk away from the table if they had reservations about this?

I'm sorry but if I encountered this attitude from someone it'd put me off Forgeworld for life.

Considering that melee dreadnoughts are pretty much rubbish these days, a Lucius Pattern Pod is more or less the only way (barring something like a Stormraven) that they're gonna be able to do anything. They're easily mitigatable by bubblewrapping the stuff they want to go after and then putting a melta weapon anywhere near it. Seriously, Lucius Pods aren't OP.

As for Spartans, what's the big deal with the 25 capacity? When are you EVER going to use that much?? It's also 295 points, with the armoured ceramite costing an additional 20 points. What are you EVER going to use a 315 point transport tank that wants to double as gunship for??


EDIT:

 BryllCream wrote:
To have a good chunk of your army turn up on turn 2 and 3 and 2/3 of the time outflanking on the table edge I want you to (thanks to MOTF) and can't even score? Yeah.

6 necron flyers is somewhat TFG. Turning up with Forgeworld units with completely out-there and grossly powerful rules that differ completely from the meta (like the AV 14 with armoured ceremite, that anyone who doesn't have Lance would find *impossible* to destroy, and can store 10 Paladins to boot) and acting like your opponent is being difficult by refusing to play you is definitely tfg.

You haven't even read the rules for it, and they're FREE.

Grey Knights don't get the Spartan, as such there won't be any Paladins going to war in one any time soon. Furthermore, you don't have to have either lance weapons or melta weapons to pop AV14. Lascannons, Demolisher Cannons (or any Ordnance weapons bigger than a Battle Cannon really), Vindicare Assassins, Railguns, Assault Cannons, Haywire Grenades, any Monstrous Creature etc.

Drop-podding assault dreadnaughts = auto-lose for any mob army. Or at least, automatically losing all your troops.

315 points is 65 points more than a Land Raider. Ask space marine players if they'd pay 65 points more for double the twin-linked lascannons, 15 extra carrying capacity, and the ability to ignore melta guns. What do you think the number one cause of death is for Land Raiders? I'll give you a clue, it rhymes with Belta Fun. So 65 points more for double the firepower, more than double the transport capacity and invulnerability against most armies? Yeah I'd say that's a steal.

Not say I'd refuse to play against either of these. But if you showed up with them and simply demanded to be played I'd tell you to get stuffed. "Hey mind if I destroy all your troops turn one and park this Land Raider wherever the hell I want? Cheers bro."

Two drop-podding dreadnaughts and a Land Raider full of Death Company would be an auto-win against certain armies even twice their points value.


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 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

You haven't even read the rules for it, and they're FREE.

I have read the rules for it.

Try reading the rulebook. This thing called "allies".

 Kaldor wrote:
But if I turn up to a game with 6 Necron fliers, that's different somehow?

Not really, I'd blame a bad cold and get out. Necron fliers isn't worth playing with any army I own.

The difference is I'd be willing to consider the army with FW units as long as I could check the books first - I know most aren't actualy overpowered.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

Grey Knights don't get the Spartan, as such there won't be any Paladins going to war in one any time soon. Furthermore, you don't have to have either lance weapons or melta weapons to pop AV14. Lascannons, Demolisher Cannons (or any Ordnance weapons bigger than a Battle Cannon really), Vindicare Assassins, Railguns, Assault Cannons, Haywire Grenades, any Monstrous Creature etc.

Cheers mate I'll...I'll get right on that.

Maybe I've just played a lot more games than you. I don't bring my guard to the field to pop AV 14 with lascannons or Demolishers. I bring melta, most Imperial armies do. This is a concequence of the meta lacking AV14 that's immune to melta. Hence why Forgeworld is unpopular for reasons I stated above.

If you continue to disregard what I say (that being rude is a terrible way to get your point across) and simply keep telling me non-melta ways of killing AV14 I'll just ignore you. You are doing a terrible job of selling forgeworld to the community.

 BryllCream wrote:
Drop-podding assault dreadnaughts = auto-lose for any mob army. Or at least, automatically losing all your troops.

315 points is 65 points more than a Land Raider. Ask space marine players if they'd pay 65 points more for double the twin-linked lascannons, 15 extra carrying capacity, and the ability to ignore melta guns. What do you think the number one cause of death is for Land Raiders? I'll give you a clue, it rhymes with Belta Fun. So 65 points more for double the firepower, more than double the transport capacity and invulnerability against most armies? Yeah I'd say that's a steal.

Not say I'd refuse to play against either of these. But if you showed up with them and simply demanded to be played I'd tell you to get stuffed. "Hey mind if I destroy all your troops turn one and park this Land Raider wherever the hell I want? Cheers bro."

Two drop-podding dreadnaughts and a Land Raider full of Death Company would be an auto-win against certain armies even twice their points value.

Blood Angels don't get the Lucius Pod though... And, again, when are you EVER going to use the 25 capacity?

 BryllCream wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

Grey Knights don't get the Spartan, as such there won't be any Paladins going to war in one any time soon. Furthermore, you don't have to have either lance weapons or melta weapons to pop AV14. Lascannons, Demolisher Cannons (or any Ordnance weapons bigger than a Battle Cannon really), Vindicare Assassins, Railguns, Assault Cannons, Haywire Grenades, any Monstrous Creature etc.

Cheers mate I'll...I'll get right on that.

Maybe I've just played a lot more games than you. I don't bring my guard to the field to pop AV 14 with lascannons or Demolishers. I bring melta, most Imperial armies do. This is a concequence of the meta lacking AV14 that's immune to melta. Hence why Forgeworld is unpopular for reasons I stated above.

If you continue to disregard what I say (that being rude is a terrible way to get your point across) and simply keep telling me non-melta ways of killing AV14 I'll just ignore you. You are doing a terrible job of selling forgeworld to the community.

Or maybe you haven't. Sure, you usually don't bring lascannons to handle AV14, neither do I. This doesn't make the Spartan OP, it just means you have to adapt to the changing meta that including ForgeWorld results in. If you only bring melta as anti-tank you don't have a very rounded list anyway, even without facing a Spartan.

 BryllCream wrote:


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

You haven't even read the rules for it, and they're FREE.

I have read the rules for it.

Try reading the rulebook. This thing called "allies".

What? The part where it says that allies can never go in an allied transport? How about you take your own advice and go back and read up on the rules? Sorry, but as long as you continue to argue out of ignorance of the rules, I'm gonna be rude back.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

Blood Angels don't get the Lucius Pod though... And, again, when are you EVER going to use the 25 capacity?

I didn't say that BA had to use the Lucius Pod. But they can take the Spartan. 25 Death Company assaulting out of that would make a mess out of anything.

 BryllCream wrote:

Or maybe you haven't. Sure, you usually don't bring lascannons to handle AV14, neither do I. This doesn't make the Spartan OP, it just means you have to adapt to the changing meta that including ForgeWorld results in. If you only bring melta as anti-tank you don't have a very rounded list anyway, even without facing a Spartan.

If you're wasting points in things other than melta guns to bring down AV14 you're not a very good guard player. The whole point about your "changing meta" is that I was arguing that since the OP is trying to persuade people who do not play against FW to do so, FW is not a part of their meta. You are suggesting they should be prepared for things that they have stated they will not fight against. Hence the insanity of simply demanding that someone play against your meta-busting list.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

What? The part where it says that allies can never go in an allied transport? How about you take your own advice and go back and read up on the rules? Sorry, but as long as you continue to argue out of ignorance of the rules, I'm gonna be rude back.

Missing Grey Knights out of a list of armies when I've just finished a night shift is, imo, excusable. Deliberately being rude, as you have just admitted to doing so, is not. And I'm sure is against the rules.

Again, you have utterly failed in your point, though I don't know what that is. I have said I will happily play against Forgeworld if I'm informed beforehand what books/models will be used, since to do otherwise is to play with a hidden codex. Peregrine was saying that you have the god-given right to show up with models and rules that no one has ever heard of, and demand a game. That is rude and will put people off FW for life.

 BryllCream wrote:

I didn't say that BA had to use the Lucius Pod. But they can take the Spartan. 25 Death Company assaulting out of that would make a mess out of anything.

Sure, it probably would. That's 815 (!!) points in one location though, not counting upgrades to the DC. If ordinary Land Raiders suffer from all eggs in one basket, the Spartan does even more so.

What are you going to put in the Lucius then? The only worthwhile unit that I can think of is an Ironclad Dreadnought, which gets to try to assault one unit, which it might not even kill, before your entire army turns around and blasts it into oblivion. Again, you can protect the stuff that you can't afford to lose pretty easily.

2 Lucius Pods with Ironclad Dreadnoughts and a Spartan with 25 Death Company (without gear) will cost you 1215 points. Then you have to spend points on 2 HQs and 2 more Troops choices in order for your army to be legal. You're going to have one tank with a giant bullseye painted on it eating all the enemy firepower, with the exception of the short-range meltaguns, who will instead vaporize the Ironclad Dreadnoughts, since they've got nothing better to shoot at. An army like that is a one-trick pony.

So yeah, a 2430 point army would probably curbstomp a list like that, regardless of what Codex it's from.

 BryllCream wrote:

If you're wasting points in things other than melta guns to bring down AV14 you're not a very good guard player. The whole point about your "changing meta" is that I was arguing that since the OP is trying to persuade people who do not play against FW to do so, FW is not a part of their meta. You are suggesting they should be prepared for things that they have stated they will not fight against. Hence the insanity of simply demanding that someone play against your meta-busting list.

Even if you don't bring non-melta weapons to deal with AV14 (and IG of all codices have the most options, what with Manticores, Medusae and, above all else, the Vendetta), there should be some othe anti-tank weapons in your list, no? I'll give you that it was silly of me to expect them to prepare for a meta that doesn't exist in their games, but if you've got nothing but melta weapons for anti-tank (and, again, as IG of all Codices) you're doing something horribly wrong.

 BryllCream wrote:
Missing Grey Knights out of a list of armies when I've just finished a night shift is, imo, excusable. Deliberately being rude, as you have just admitted to doing so, is not. And I'm sure is against the rules.

It wasn't just missing the Grey Knights, it's missing the fact that a unit can't ever ride in an allied transport. Sorry, but not reading up on the rules and then arguing out of ignorance really, really irks me. I'll try to chill though.

 BryllCream wrote:

Again, you have utterly failed in your point, though I don't know what that is. I have said I will happily play against Forgeworld if I'm informed beforehand what books/models will be used, since to do otherwise is to play with a hidden codex. Peregrine was saying that you have the god-given right to show up with models and rules that no one has ever heard of, and demand a game. That is rude and will put people off FW for life.

It's Peregrine's right to ask for a game, just as it is his theoretical opponent's right to decline. The point I'm trying to make is that your examples are hardly game-breaking.

I think the best way is to be friendly ask people if they want to play with them with you, and understand why they may not.

Being manipulative or aggressive I think shows that maybe they wouldn't want to play with you anyway :0 as you in that case are not very friendly at all. And defenatly not fun.

I don't think it goes much further than that other than the general stuff like having the rules on hand.

The last few posts between AlmightyWalrus and BryllCream illustrate the issues people have with FW units. On paper they look all big a scary but in reality they are no worse than any options in the GW codexes. There is nothing in FW that cannot be dealt with if people know it is coming. The “OP” stuff is very expensive points and cash wise meaning the likelihood that it will randomly show up in a friendly game is slim. Pulling the “worst case” to push a slippery slope argument just doesn’t work for me. Most FW units are over points for what they do or are designed for a very narrow task.

AlmightWalrus addressed the Spartan issue. As for as the Gun Platorm…worse than a Thundercannon.

Give your group a heads up the week before that you plan on trying some FW out. Copy the rules for the unit and have them available for them to take home.

 hisdudeness wrote:
As for as the Gun Platorm…worse than a Thundercannon.

You're insane.
That said, I'd care more about Forge World if the Nid options were worth anything. Something similar to a Maulerfiend but significantly more expensive and vulnerable to small arms fire? With no invul and missing IWND? Yeah, I'll get right on that.

Does this make me old:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RijB8wnJCN0

TC: Mobile, 3 gun modes, Techmarine. Still don't use them much but still a better heavy choice.

GP: placed wrong and becomes a 40-60 point speed bump. The only cool part is the AA Mount, but will be a target for just like anything else that is a threat to fliers. The only thing I can see them used for is anti-flier lists.

The spartan cannot be regarded in the same way as other FW units, as its rules are still experimental. The same thing happens with most of the experimental rules: they seem super powerful and then become more reasonable when the rules are finalised. I don't know if any of the experimental rules units have stayed the same when published.

Any experimental rule unit would need express consent to be played. They are an odd bunch that have some more balancing to go through. There is a big difference between them and the regular FW units.

Alright everybody, get back on topic or I'm getting the thread locked. Everyone is blowing what the other person said out of proportion and its getting rediculous.

Peregrine is saying that he either plays his forgeworld list, or he goes home. it's no different than if I showed up and somebody said "no, you can't use footguard". I would either find another opponent or head home. He doesn't mean anything malicious, he just wants to use his army.

As for the rules arguing, this was something I specifically asked to NOT come up. If you've got a problem with FW, WHY ARE YOU POSTING IN A THREAD ABOUT GETTING PEOPLE TO ACCEPT IT? I don't go into Necron threads to complain about their flyers, so why are you posting somewhere where you're just going to derail it? You guys are acting like children!

And on a completely unrelated note, any guard player who isn't bringing something besides meltaguns to help deal with enemy armor has glaring problems with his list.

Now, if you guys want to keep arguing, take it to the PM's, otherwise this thread is going into lockdown. In case you can't tell, I'm in a bad mood (missed a clutch concert), so I'm in no mood for this gak right now.

 MrMoustaffa wrote:

And on a completely unrelated note, any guard player who isn't bringing something besides meltaguns to help deal with enemy armor has glaring problems with his list.
.

What do you bring in your list to take out AV14 other than melta guns? Just out of curiosity.

 BryllCream wrote:

 MrMoustaffa wrote:

And on a completely unrelated note, any guard player who isn't bringing something besides meltaguns to help deal with enemy armor has glaring problems with his list.
.

What do you bring in your list to take out AV14 other than melta guns? Just out of curiosity.

For me, it is demolisher cannons, manticores and command vanquishers.

 Trickstick wrote:

 BryllCream wrote:

 MrMoustaffa wrote:

And on a completely unrelated note, any guard player who isn't bringing something besides meltaguns to help deal with enemy armor has glaring problems with his list.
.

What do you bring in your list to take out AV14 other than melta guns? Just out of curiosity.

For me, it is demolisher cannons, manticores and command vanquishers.

Same here. Usually it's one of my pair of command vanquisher tanks, or a Demolisher in a pinch.

Lascannons usually. I still bring meltas, but they're not the only thing I rely on for killing heavier armor. I also bring artillery sometimes, and manticores or basilisks can shave off hullpoints on av14 in a pinch if need be.

Also, had a bit to calm down and my head is clearer. didn't mean to snap on everyone, but watching that argument eat up the thread was the straw that broke the camel's back when it added on to the crap that happened to me last night.

I can see now why people with issues with fW would come into this thread, to voice WHY they dislike it. That way people wanting to introduce it know what they're up against, and I appreciate it. I just wish we wouldn't argue so much and cold have a civil discussion.

Also, thanks to everyone who's suggested ways to help get it accepted, they've helped give me several good ideas on how to slowly integrate FW in my area.

 Trickstick wrote:

 BryllCream wrote:

 MrMoustaffa wrote:

And on a completely unrelated note, any guard player who isn't bringing something besides meltaguns to help deal with enemy armor has glaring problems with his list.
.

What do you bring in your list to take out AV14 other than melta guns? Just out of curiosity.

For me, it is demolisher cannons, manticores and command vanquishers.

So any guard player who doesn't bring Demolishers and Manticores (AP4 and presumably firing indirect), would auto-lose and that's cool with you?

As I say, for I think the fifth time in this thread, it would be fine if you informed someone beforehand of what you were bringing, or what book, it's just showing up with an auto-win army and then demanding to be played that's tfg.

Actually, I think best way to bring FW units is go straight for an APOC game, with low points and maybe no superheavies.

I more or less use the same pattern Peregrine does.
Here are my FW models, here are the rules with the original book, have a look, find something nice for your own army and give me a call so we can share a mail order.

It's a bit odd that I get blamed for cheesing with a Tetra while the opponent has three Nightscythes on the field.
Usually FW models aren't even cheap in points terms. A fully kitted Storm Eagle costs the same as three fully kitted XV9 Hazard Suits and the same as 3 fully kitted XV88 Broadsides.

So, when someone tells me "I don't want you to field that fw model" I reply "I don't want you to field that gw model" just to point out how silly the discussion is. They sometimes ask me in advance to have a fw-less list, which I gladly agree to do. I proved there is no big difference in how much I win or lose with or without FW, it's just a different list.

TL : DR

Back to OP question:
go for a small APOC game or simply organize a friendly game "I would like to try something different". Show them your IA books and make them dream.

 BryllCream wrote:

 Trickstick wrote:

 BryllCream wrote:

 MrMoustaffa wrote:

And on a completely unrelated note, any guard player who isn't bringing something besides meltaguns to help deal with enemy armor has glaring problems with his list.
.

What do you bring in your list to take out AV14 other than melta guns? Just out of curiosity.

For me, it is demolisher cannons, manticores and command vanquishers.

So any guard player who doesn't bring Demolishers and Manticores (AP4 and presumably firing indirect), would auto-lose and that's cool with you?

As I say, for I think the fifth time in this thread, it would be fine if you informed someone beforehand of what you were bringing, or what book, it's just showing up with an auto-win army and then demanding to be played that's tfg.

Lol, I don't know how I drew your ire but it was not my intent. I was simply stating what AT I brought besides meltaguns.

What I think would help the topic of FW inclusion would be a compiled list of the most up to date rules for all of the units and lists. Also, I think that you need to take things into account at the list building stage, so that you don't make a broken army that would cause more FW opposition. I'm trying to make a list with all of my FW models (vulture, 2x hydra, vanquisher) that would be fun to play against. I have not decided if an IG/ABG would be too much for some people, but it is probably what I am going for.

BryllCream is the perfect example of the problem people that wish to use FW units encounter, the idea that FW lists are auto-win or broken.

Play with or against them and people will see they are not either. They are mostly very fluff lists that have built-in weaknesses due to the narrow focus. Or they are designed to be used in the campaign they are built for.

The first step to get FW in your group is to overcome this barrier.

 BryllCream wrote:
just showing up with an auto-win army and then demanding to be played that's tfg.

This is true.

However, it's dishonest to insist that FW fall into the auto-win category.

So, as has been mentioned before, a lot of it is attitude. You're talking about bringing new stuff into an environment to make changes. The way in which you do this is important. Also, it's why you're probably seeing a lot of reluctance towards groups opting in to forgeworld stuff. I mean, look at just the last few pages in this thread:

Kaldor wrote:and certainly don't ask if they're ok with playing against FW units.

Kaldor wrote:it's dishonest to insist that FW fall into the auto-win category.

Swissivy wrote:just to point out how silly the discussion is.

Peregrine wrote:or be rude and refuse to play because they don't like your army.

Peregrine wrote:Are you kidding?

hisdudeness wrote:Have you even played against them? I have

hisdudeness wrote:Most players are young and don't like to think on that large a scale so they pull the "FW is not legal or OP" silliness to not have to think too hard.

If these are the kinds of attitudes that people who are pushing FW are going to have, then of course they're going to meet resistance. Trick your opponent into using optional rules? That will build trust. Calling them dishonest? Calling them silly? Calling them rude? Being sarcastic? Being condescending?

If these are the kinds of people who are playing with FW stuff, then no wonder people don't like FW stuff - they don't like the people who play with it. That power gamers, WAACers and TFGs are attracted to FW units is neither a new phenomenon, nor has it ever been a secret. You don't have to be a bad person to play with forgeworld stuff, but if people who play with forgeworld stuff are disproportionately jerks, then it's going to reflect poorly on forgeworld by association.

Probably the best thing to do to be an ambassador to FW stuff is to be a good person. The goodness will rub off on the units. Actually listen to what people say, and facilitate meaningful dialogue. Bring a "my way or the highway" attitude to any relationship, be it marriage or to a gaming group, and the end result will always be the same. There is simply no substitute for good will and good communication.

MrMoustaffa wrote:Peregrine is saying that he either plays his forgeworld list, or he goes home. it's no different than if I showed up and somebody said "no, you can't use footguard". I would either find another opponent or head home. He doesn't mean anything malicious, he just wants to use his army.

Which brings up to this. Of course if people aren't going to play with you, then you're not playing with anyone.

That said, you shouldn't think ill of people for not being willing to play your game when they were wanting to play something else, no matter how similar. And this is where I unfortunately have to address the legality dispute. Whether FW units are legal for regular games of 40k or not, the fact is that there is a dispute. There is not a dispute about whether night scythes are legal, or a dispute about the legality about a lot of other stuff. Everybody expects that a necron player can show up with a doom scythe. Very far from everybody expects someone to show up with a bunch of sabre platforms or DKoK artillery. It isn't a part of the game to many people. If you show up with those things, you're literally playing a different game than they are.

And that's something that very seriously needs to be addressed when you're going to talk to people about forgeworld stuff, and it makes a stubborn pro-FW attitude come off as really bad. If we're playing a game, and you insist that something is a part of it that I don't think is, and I'M the bad guy for feeling offended that you're forcing me to play by different rules? This scenario is going to engender a great deal of hostility VERY quickly.

Probably the worst way to get add-ons allowed into a game is by blaming or demeaning those who don't want to play with them. It's a terrible strategy, regardless of the subject, and will just wind up making you isolated and frustrated.

MrMoustaffa wrote:We have a TON of IG players and it's getting really boring playing the same codex over and over again.

I also wanted to comment on this statement from before.

I really doubt that including FW will fix this problem. Your problem is that you have uncreative opponents who all play more or less the same army in all more or less the same way. Add more options, and you'll still find yourself with this problem, just with different models on the table. The opportunity for more creativity will be useless to those who insist on being boring.

Rather than trying to go the FW route, I think it would be a lot cheaper and easier to mix things up through other ways. Do some campaigns, or start a league with a bunch of house rules that are going to force people to be more creative. Like a rule that says you must take one thing from every slot before you take something from one slot twice, or have a bidding system wherein you limit the number of any particular type of unit that can be used. Go wild.

In any case, you're probably going to have to force people to be more original here. Simply giving them the option to be so won't make much of a difference. Or take a more carrot approach. Doesn't matter.

 Ailaros wrote:
Trick your opponent into using optional rules?

Don't go there, buddy.

 Ailaros wrote:
If these are the kinds of people who are playing with FW stuff, then no wonder people don't like FW stuff - they don't like the people who play with it. That power gamers, WAACers and TFGs are attracted to FW units is neither a new phenomenon, nor has it ever been a secret. You don't have to be a bad person to play with forgeworld stuff, but if people who play with forgeworld stuff are disproportionately jerks, then it's going to reflect poorly on forgeworld by association.

I really hate the image that FW can get from those sorts of people. Then again, I suppose every aspect of 40k has its share of TFGs. Just pick any army and you will see people taking very broken units and such like.

All I can say is that there are plenty of people who use FW stuff for other reasons than sheer power. The models are better, not every one but the average if far higher. For some people that is enough. Speaking for myself, I jumped in to get some of those lovely hydra models and a Ramilies class star fort, only recently picking up IA1:2e when I saw it existed. That led me on to a vulture (as I wanted a gunship not a weird super-transport-gunship) and a vanquisher. I think all of these models look awesome and I love using them. I use the ABG rules for my list because I want a command vanquisher to be in charge, not because the list is awesome (it isn't, it is pretty weak).

The "two list" method, having a FW and non-FW list ready, simply would not work for me. I have a carry case, I can just fit an 1850 point list in it. I don't have room to carry a spare vendetta or a load of infantry around with me. I even had to sacrifice my rule book to fit IA1:2e in. So if I turn up to a game, I have to play with my ABG (or more likely ABG/IG). I'm not going to ask for special permision, yet I would not be weird if people don't want to play. I just state what I'm playing when people ask, like I would whatever I take. I let people look over my book if they want, explain things that they may need to know about, etc. I am getting a bit sick of pointing out what a beast-hunter shell does, but it is better mentioning it before the fight than one hit killing a trygon out of nowhere.

I think people need to talk more before games, it would solve so many problems.

Here are my FW models, here are the rules with the original book, have a look, find something nice for your own army and give me a call so we can share a mail order.

What do you do if he plays nids and there is nothing there for him in FW , but you adding hellfire mortars or sentry guns etc. or if he plays marines and doesnt want another bad land raider ?

I understand it is easier in the uk or us where the access to FW stuff is easy and everyone has the models/books . But here no one plays FW and I doubt people ever well, the cost of books alone is a barrier, I can tell stories about boring armies or mirror matchs all day long , but when my dex is IG and his is non IG , he just wont let me use FW, because the stuff I would take would make my army a lot better , then the stuff he could take .

Makumba wrote:

Here are my FW models, here are the rules with the original book, have a look, find something nice for your own army and give me a call so we can share a mail order.

What do you do if he plays nids and there is nothing there for him in FW

Then he didn't look hard enough. Malanthropes, Meiotic Spores and Stone Crusher Carnifexes, while not being top-teir selections (just like 90% of Forgeworld stuff), are fun new units for regular 40k.

 -Loki- wrote:

Makumba wrote:

Here are my FW models, here are the rules with the original book, have a look, find something nice for your own army and give me a call so we can share a mail order.

What do you do if he plays nids and there is nothing there for him in FW

Then he didn't look hard enough. Malanthropes, Meiotic Spores and Stone Crusher Carnifexes, while not being top-teir selections (just like 90% of Forgeworld stuff), are fun new units for regular 40k.

They're far from top-tier. Really, there's nothing in a Forge World book I'd bother using.

rigeld2 wrote:

 -Loki- wrote:

Makumba wrote:

Here are my FW models, here are the rules with the original book, have a look, find something nice for your own army and give me a call so we can share a mail order.

What do you do if he plays nids and there is nothing there for him in FW

Then he didn't look hard enough. Malanthropes, Meiotic Spores and Stone Crusher Carnifexes, while not being top-teir selections (just like 90% of Forgeworld stuff), are fun new units for regular 40k.

They're far from top-tier. Really, there's nothing in a Forge World book I'd bother using.

Which, with the exception of a handful of units (really, you can count them on one hand), is the case for the rest of Forgeworlds range. The vast, vast majority are simply outdone by codex units.

The Tyranid stuff is fun in a non-competitive environment if you can get them to work though.

Ailaros, your view is one of the greatest problems with the idea of FW in regular games. The monotonous drone of “FW not being legal” and “FW is too OP” speak volumes in that nothing anyone says will change these views. Anyone that plays a game or two with FW units will see they are no different than codex units. Some games the win the day, others they are the weakest link. Sadly all it takes is one off game against a FW unit/list for someone to cry OP and never play with FW again…but these are the same people that would most likely do (and may have done) the same with normal units/lists. Most veteran players have seen it…the player that will not play against X list or any army that contains x unit(s).

Until the blind emotion against FW units is fixed there will be little luck in wide acceptance.

I’ve yet to see anyone suggest tricking others into playing against FW. All the suggestions I’ve seen are the opposite.

I’m sorry MrMoustaffa, but this will keep being brought up because this is the core of the issue with FW acceptance. The prejudice of FW units is a real thing and only people seeing the units on the table and get rid of this “player permission” idea will change that. Too many players believe they have the skill to look at a unit on paper and make a summary judgment on the power.

 hisdudeness wrote:

I’m sorry MrMoustaffa, but this will keep being brought up because this is the core of the issue with FW acceptance. The prejudice of FW units is a real thing and only people seeing the units on the table and get rid of this “player permission” idea will change that. Too many players believe they have the skill to look at a unit on paper and make a summary judgment on the power.

Sorry but this argument goes both ways. I'm pretty tired of seing Perigrine (sp?) come into EVERY FW discussion (even ones not about legality - like this one) and constantly remind us that according to him FW is totally 100% a part of WH40K which I guess they forgot to add to the codicies and BRB and he won't play anyone who doesn't play FW, good for you mate, we get it, move on. The only piece of guidance from GW on the topic quite clearly states you should talk to your opponent before using any of that stuff. Anything else is just what you're complaining about, people making judgements based on their opinions regarding how a unit looks on paper.

MarsNZ wrote:

 hisdudeness wrote:

I’m sorry MrMoustaffa, but this will keep being brought up because this is the core of the issue with FW acceptance. The prejudice of FW units is a real thing and only people seeing the units on the table and get rid of this “player permission” idea will change that. Too many players believe they have the skill to look at a unit on paper and make a summary judgment on the power.

Sorry but this argument goes both ways. I'm pretty tired of seing Perigrine (sp?) come into EVERY FW discussion (even ones not about legality - like this one) and constantly remind us that according to him FW is totally 100% a part of WH40K which I guess they forgot to add to the codicies and BRB and he won't play anyone who doesn't play FW, good for you mate, we get it, move on. The only piece of guidance from GW on the topic quite clearly states you should talk to your opponent before using any of that stuff. Anything else is just what you're complaining about, people making judgements based on their opinions regarding how a unit looks on paper.

Forge World IS 100% a part of WH40K. If you want to argue the point, take it over to the other thread.

To be fair, I've changed my mind on many a thing in my life. I have never once changed my mind based on what opinion is popular, or how emotionally invested anyone else is in their opinion, however.

And I think that's really part of the problem. It is difficult to have meaningful dialogue about a topic in which people have emotional investment, regardless of what the topic is about. Once people burrow down into a religious-like conviction that their point of view is correct, and that it's not worth listening to people whose opinion is inconcruent with one's own, that's where the communication breaks down, and that's when nothing useful is able to be done about anything.

It really isn't unique to forgeworld in 40k, of course, but is a common feature of how human brains work. It's easy to imagine that a pro-forgeworld person gets just as offended and in the exact same way as a gay person gets when talking about gay marriage, or that a pro-core-rules person gets just as sick and tired of being around people who absolutely insist that they must believe in Jesus, and it is their personal mission to convert a person by sheer force of will regardless of the other's opinions.

If religion and politics can both be a place wherein people communicate, then certainly other contentious issues can likewise lead to useful dialogue.

Skullduggery, on the other hand, will just make you a gigantic jerk. In this case, approaching this problem with how you can manipulate other people into doing what you want would be a very, very bad place to start from.

Kaldor wrote:Forge World IS 100% a part of WH40K. If you want to argue the point, take it over to the other thread.

This is exactly what I'm talking about.

Let's say that in order to have a conversation with someone, whatever the topic is about, the other person must agree to the statement that "Jesus IS Lord. If you disagree, you can't be useful to this conversation".

Really think about it.

 -Loki- wrote:
Which, with the exception of a handful of units (really, you can count them on one hand), is the case for the rest of Forgeworlds range. The vast, vast majority are simply outdone by codex units.

I'm honestly curious, and not trolling with the following:
Could you name them?
If someone was 100% okay with not allowing those handful of units but perfectly fine with the rest, would that be acceptable?
For things like the Ork Half-Trukk that has hull point stats but no actual rules - how would that be resolved?
I've meant to ask things like this for the past dozen or s FW threads, but they usually devolve into hatred from both sides so quickly it's not worth it. This one at least hasn't said that players who don't want to play against Forge World are TFG and don't ever deserve to be played against - and I hope it does t devolve to that level.

The Tyranid stuff is fun in a non-competitive environment if you can get them to work though.

Knowing the rules for those units I can't see a reason to use them outside of a scenario. And to me, that's barely worth the paper they're printed on. I make fun non-competitive lists. Why should I make a significant investment to make them worse?

 Ailaros wrote:
Skullduggery, on the other hand, will just make you a gigantic jerk. In this case, approaching this problem with how you can manipulate other people into doing what you want would be a very, very bad place to start from.

Social etiquette and how best to present things to people are a very far cry from manipulation and skullduggery.

 Ailaros wrote:

Kaldor wrote:Forge World IS 100% a part of WH40K. If you want to argue the point, take it over to the other thread.

This is exactly what I'm talking about.

Let's say that in order to have a conversation with someone, whatever the topic is about, the other person must agree to the statement that "Jesus IS Lord. If you disagree, you can't be useful to this conversation".

Really think about it.

 MrMoustaffa wrote:
THIS IS NOT A DISCUSSION OVER WHETHER FORGEWORLD IS 40K "OFFICIAL" OR NOT.

Please, use the other thread for legality discussion.

I wish I had something on topic to add...

Um...

Smile at people when you ask for a game?

Here's my FLGS's take on FW.

If you want to run FW models for codex units (say the Daemon Prince of Nurgle + Herald for the appropriate units in the codex) that's fine without permission, so long as the size is about right. The FW Greater Daemon models are much larger than the standard ones, and so are not allowed in their tournaments, and are 'if your opponent is ok with it, go for it' in casual games.

If you want to run FW units, you are SOL in tournament games, because their tournaments are and have always been core-codex only. A big part of this is that the TO is the guy who gets to deal with the rules questions and check the lists, and he doesn't own every FW book, let alone know all the rules for every single FW unit. He has all the current codex ones down, which is tough enough.

If you want a pickup or casual game with FW units it's pretty much up to whether anyone feels like taking you up on it. You have no right to stomp your feet and insist that it's mandatory that people play with you, because acting like a spoilt kid will just make sure that your tasty models will stay in foam. No-one wants to play someone like that.

The best approach for those who don't mind playing FW units (i'm one of them) to get a game is a lot more :

'Hey, i just got IA8 and it has some pretty cool new ork units. Want to see what they can do? '

rather than

'But you have to accept FW ork units as legal for regular play. I insist that you allow me to use my FW units, and if not i'm going to pack up, sulk and whine about it on a forum when i get home.'

The first one will likely get you games, especially if you show them the book, and doubly so if you can suggest some units for them to try for a rematch if they enjoy the game. You come across as a reasonable human being who wants to try something new, and is looking for a gaming test-pilot to try it with. Ask for feedback from the guy about the new unit. For best results do this in a casual game setting, not with your gak-kicking tournament list. If the guy has a good experience he might well be willing to try FW units himself next game, or be more willing to play yours.

The second one comes across as someone who has come up with some broken-ass combination of trap cards that he wants to spring on an unsuspecting opponent in order to add a notch to their W/L/D through an easy win. This likely isn't so, as only a few of the FW units are that out of whack, but the attitude does suggest it. Refusing to play someone unless they play it your way will generally result in them playing someone else who's more laid back.


Personally i will play FW units fairly happily, with the right criteria.

My criteria:

I either have the book, or they can show me the book right at the table and give me a moment to read the unit entry.

They ASK if i'm ok with playing against FW units/lists when we agree to play a game, rather than just pulling them from the case and then telling me they are using them and that I have to accept them.

They don't come across as a pillock.

The last one is the most important. Playing against a pillock is a joykiller, regardless of the relative power of their list, and i play for fun not for my W/L/D percentage.


My compliments to the OP for having the balls to open up a thread like this, and my best wishes on getting his FLGS to accept FW. FW units can be fun, but the person running them (like any codex unit for that matter) is the main test of how fun they are to play against.

 Ascalam wrote:
They ASK if i'm ok with playing against FW units/lists when we agree to play a game

I have the same requirement for people with Terminators in their armies. If you just turn up to game with them in your army, I won't be playing you.

Fair enough. Not a fan of termies myself, though i'll play against them anyway

In tourmanents i don't get a say, as they are codex units

Thanks Ascalam that was a pretty good way of putting it.

I highly doubt we'll be seeing FW at the tournaments at my store, except for mabye the Rusty Scabbard if the regional tournaments start using FW (They like to use main tournament scenarios a lot)

I'm really just wanting to use it for pickup games.

Also, for Ailaros, the problem with the IG players not having enough variety is that there's only so many ways you can run a mech list. And when you have at least 4 regulars, and a few more every now and then players, all using chimera heavy lists, it's hard to keep things fresh. We have a guy who runs armored fist platoons, and nothing else (one heck of an army to see on the table) a guy who spams russes, a guy who runs the more typical "leafblower" style, and a guy who spams tons of artillery and chimeras behind an aegis defence line for laughs. But to a non IG player, they're all the same. I was hoping by maybe encouraging a bit of FW play we could mix things up a bit. No idea if it would work or not, but it's always worth a shot I guess.

At the moment I'm just saving up for the newest Imperial Armour book and trying to paint up all my russes.

rigeld2 wrote:

 -Loki- wrote:
Which, with the exception of a handful of units (really, you can count them on one hand), is the case for the rest of Forgeworlds range. The vast, vast majority are simply outdone by codex units.

I'm honestly curious, and not trolling with the following:
Could you name them?

The usual suspects.
The Lucius drop pod - mostly because it allows a dreadnought to assault the turn it arrives. It's not that it's overpowered, just that it does something a codex unit doesn't. The one army with a dreadnought that can abuse it can't even take it (Blood Angels with their blenderboxes). I also don't know what the ruling is on assaulting out of it now, since you're techinically assaulting from reserves, which isn't allowed anymore. And the dreadnought can immobilise itself assaulting out of it. And it takes an FA slot.
The Land Raider Achilles - this thing is a brick. Wrapped in concrete. Dipped in titanium. With a thunderfire cannon sticking out the front. It's ungodly hard to kill for some armies. However, it's main issue was sticking a scout squad in it and sitting on objective - this doesn't work in 6th, and has the usual issues Land Raiders have (expensive, huge targets, 'all eggs in one basket' syndrome).
The Land Raider Spartan. I can see peoples issues with it. Massive transport capacity (that you'll never actually fill up), lots of firepower. Again, it's got the exact same issues normal Land Raiders have.
The Caestus Assault Ram - it's a flying Land Raider. With a Magna Melta. And can ram things to death. And is a flyer. This one has legitimate balance issues.
Blight Drones. Flying Battle Cannons - nuff said.

There might be a few more that have popped up, but I haven't heard much in the way of whining about anything but those 5. Two of them were sufficiently neutered in 6th edition (Achilles and Lucius), and one of those was never really an issue anyway (Lucius).

rigeld2 wrote:
If someone was 100% okay with not allowing those handful of units but perfectly fine with the rest, would that be acceptable?

Of course. Same reason as one of my friends refused to play my brothers Guard army in 3rd edition with 2 Leman Russes. People can refuse for any reason they want.

rigeld2 wrote:
For things like the Ork Half-Trukk that has hull point stats but no actual rules - how would that be resolved?

Tell them to use it as a Trukk?

rigeld2 wrote:
I've meant to ask things like this for the past dozen or s FW threads, but they usually devolve into hatred from both sides so quickly it's not worth it. This one at least hasn't said that players who don't want to play against Forge World are TFG and don't ever deserve to be played against - and I hope it does t devolve to that level.

I hate Forgeworld threads for the same reasons. Forgeworld is a wealth of new gaming options, and people will either like them or not like them for their own reasons. When threads devolve into the legality debate in the usual murky environment GW fosters, threads turn very toxic very quickly.

I don't know, I think it might just make your problem worse.

Once you show up with a mechanized guard army that can take russes as troops and doesn't even need to bother with infantry, guess how long it's going to take before everyone is playing an armored company?

In any case, it's still a problem with the players, not with the rules and options available. No one is forcing them all to play guard, and no one is forcing them all to play mech. There are other guard builds, and there are other armies.

Kaldor wrote:

Ailaros wrote:Let's say that in order to have a conversation with someone, whatever the topic is about, the other person must agree to the statement that "Jesus IS Lord. If you disagree, you can't be useful to this conversation".

I'm not going to disregard the facts in order to entertain a discussion that FW may not be legal, any more than I'd accept that 2+2=/=4 in order to have a discussion about mathematics.

 Ailaros wrote:
I don't know, I think it might just make your problem worse.

Once you show up with a mechanized guard army that can take russes as troops and doesn't even need to bother with infantry, guess how long it's going to take before everyone is playing an armored company?

In any case, it's still a problem with the players, not with the rules and options available. No one is forcing them all to play guard, and no one is forcing them all to play mech. There are other guard builds, and there are other armies.

Kaldor wrote:

Ailaros wrote:Let's say that in order to have a conversation with someone, whatever the topic is about, the other person must agree to the statement that "Jesus IS Lord. If you disagree, you can't be useful to this conversation".

I'm not going to disregard the facts in order to entertain a discussion that FW may not be legal, any more than I'd accept that 2+2=/=4 in order to have a discussion about mathematics.

Oh real mature. So just because you disagree with a fact, everyone you talk to must accept that this fact is now up for debate?

GW/Fogreworld, which is one entity, has stated directly in their FW books which units are considered units that can be used in regular 40k games. The writers of the game stated that this is a fact, and that since FW is not as common, to talk to your opponent first.

So yeah, expecting the players who don't want to play with FW rules to simply accept and state that yes, GW has stated that these units are legal but I don't want to play against them is a reasonable starting point for the discussion.

The only religious comparison is for the deniers who want to make up their own criteria for how GW must present GW's intent.

Edit: I think this is on topic since it does address how the other side might respond, because if they can just accept that they don't like X as the reason, then they can make the next steps to address what they don't like. For example, armored companies might be unbalanced at the point levels they want to play.

Can't believe Kaldor and I have ended up on the same side of this...

 Ailaros wrote:
Let's say that in order to have a conversation with someone, whatever the topic is about, the other person must agree to the statement that "Jesus IS Lord. If you disagree, you can't be useful to this conversation".

Really think about it.

I thought about it. All I see are red fish.

Your analogy is so far removed from what Kaldor was saying that it's almost insulting. "FW are legal/No they're not!" is the same as "Jesus is Lord/No he's not?". You must be kidding...

And don't try to back track and say "I didn't say they were the same!". You did. You equated one to the other.

 Ailaros wrote:
Once you show up with a mechanized guard army that can take russes as troops and doesn't even need to bother with infantry, guess how long it's going to take before everyone is playing an armored company?

ABG is actually not that great, as a pure list. Too few scoring units and it just folds against multi charges. However, it works well as an ally for any force, as you can take 2 russes and 2 fliers with no real "ally tax", as command russes are awesome. Without infantry of some kind, ABG will lose most games.

 -Loki- wrote:


Which, with the exception of a handful of units (really, you can count them on one hand), is the case for the rest of Forgeworlds range. The vast, vast majority are simply outdone by codex units.

The Tyranid stuff is fun in a non-competitive environment if you can get them to work though.

but hth fex are just as bad as normal hth fex and you dont have to buy a high cost book to use , same with the mines and that cuthulu trygon .
they do nothing codex units dont do , they dont change how the army can be played . Now If I could use those sabre sentry guns I would , they are awesome . cheap and make my aegis longer , technicly giving it more guns too . But no one is a going to let me make IG better .

Once you show up with a mechanized guard army that can take russes as troops and doesn't even need to bother with infantry, guess how long it's going to take before everyone is playing an armored company?

I dont think the problem is that every IG player would switch to Armored company . the problem is that armies right now are build to deal with 3 things . slogger , some av13+ stuff and flyers . no army other then IG and necron can deal well with all 3 at the same time . giving IG the possibility to take a 5-6 LR 6-9vendetta builds in non 2k points game , would not be liked by non IG players , because FW doesnt give them anything like that.. now if IG was a bad army , people would probably be more accepting , I mean as I said before I would like to use some IG units in my army or ally some stuff to help me with some match ups , but I have no idea how to force people to let me do it .

 Ailaros wrote:
Once you show up with a mechanized guard army that can take russes as troops and doesn't even need to bother with infantry, guess how long it's going to take before everyone is playing an armored company?

If they want to win, forever. I play Armored Battlegroup as my primary army, and it really isn't that amazing of a list. Just as an example, we can only have 6 squads of infantry as troops and they're just fragile PISs in Chimeras. They won't live to see the morning, and if a player takes them, then he can't have terribly many Russes. And our veterans gain Tank Hunters but also cost an extra 50% in points for no increase in durability.

Our scoring units die like flies - if you really want to win games, Codex Guard does it 100000% better.

Pitching FW to a player is all about demographics.

Look for a Space Marine player who is tired of getting beaten by flyers. Then show him the Contemptor Mortis Dreadnought.

If a Sisters of Battle player is tired of having to choose between Rhinos and Immolators, show them the Repressor.

And so on and so forth.

Makumba wrote:
but hth fex are just as bad as normal hth fex and you dont have to buy a high cost book to use , same with the mines and that cuthulu trygon .
they do nothing codex units dont do , they dont change how the army can be played .

Meiotic spores are basically super spore mines. So yeah, they kind of do the same thing spore mines do, just a lot bigger.
The Stone Crusher actually does do things the codex Carnifex doesn't - it gives you a 2+ save monstrous creature (even the codex itself only has access to 2, one of those an upgraded Hive Tyrant), and also gives it better Regeneration (letting you reroll 1's), and is great at knocking down Fortifications (handy in 6th).
The Malanthrope is another cheapish Synapse base, which is always handy, that hands out Preferred Enemy when it kills things. So there's something that's pretty rare outside of super expensive HQ's in the codex.

Also, as I said multiple times - they're not very 'competitive' units. If you're trying to be competitive, Forgeworld isn't for you, regardless of race, outside of a handful of units.

Also regarding Tyranids, I don't know why Forgeworld simply doesn't just make the Heirodules standard 40k units now. Their stats and abilities are actually a bit worse than the Tyrannofex, Trygon and Tervigon, while having models of comparable size as well. Open them up to standard 40k and give Tyranid players another couple of big gribblies to play with outside of Apocalypse.

Makumba wrote:
Now If I could use those sabre sentry guns I would , they are awesome . cheap and make my aegis longer , technicly giving it more guns too . But no one is a going to let me make IG better .

Those sentry guns are also taking up FoC slots better served by other units in the IG codex. IG is one of the best served armies in terms of quantity of units, but they simply don't stakc up to the standout units in the codex.

This is the cheif aspect of Forgeworld most detractors simply don't get - outside of about 5 units in all of Forgeworlds range, they just aren't worth the points or FoC slots your using up with them compared to codex units. And even those 5 or so units are closer to 'worth their points' than broken, though the Caestus has legitimate issues.

Compare that to studio material, there you wouldn't be shocked to see 5 units in a single codex being broken compared to its points.

As someone who is not too keen on the whole FW units thing, I'll be more than happy to add what would personally get me to be more inclined to accept playing against FW.

MrMoustaffa wrote:1. I need the physical book (obviously) and need to be completely transparent and allow them to look through it whenever they wish.

This x 1000. I would go as far to say to also be there to explain much of the newer stuff, especially things that are radically different from the standard IG Codex. I would make sure to go over every special new rule you intend to play with to make sure that both you and your opponents understand how it works and possibly interacts with other rules if there is any sort of issue/conflict/whatever. I'm not suggesting that you necessarily divulge what your specific tactics with those units are going to be, but make it understood how they work and what they are capable of in the best possible scenario. Example, if you have something similar to the Blendernaught(TM), make sure you and your opponents understand fully that the extra attacks generated can possibly generate further extra attacks, and with good rolling in the best of cases could theoretically mulch an entire 50 man blob in one go. (Not that there is anything like that necessarily in FW, but just as an example of making sure rules are clear beforehand) This would also help with any issues of crying foul prior to the game even being played. To that end, I'd even take a few hours, or even a whole day to go over with your opponents/other players the FW stuff you would like to add to your casual games, or if not that long, at least until all parties are satisfied that there are "no surprises".

MrMoustaffa wrote:2. Not taking the crazy stuff for a while, simply to keep from leaving a bad taste in people's mouths. Things like sabre platforms, vultures (as much as that pains me to not take them), and the artillery platforms would be saved for the more "competitive" games, or tournaments.

Although this can be a good idea, I would still take the time as mentioned above to go over with your opponents what each of those units are, what they can do, what their special rules are and how they work, and if possible, compare them to an already existing unit that they are more familiar with and how it compares and contrasts. For example, you could explain that Sabre Platforms are like a Quad Gun Emplacement except that it costs more points, blah blah blah. Or that Vultures are like Valkyries that cost more points, can't transport units, and can shoot slightly more. Or that Artillery Platforms are like Basilisks that are slightly cheaper but can't ever move. (Disclaimer: the preceding three sentences aren't necessarily true at all, but are just used as examples of what one could do to explain them. I have no idea of the actual stats of these units are.) You get the idea. By comparing the FW unit to something that is already well known, or at least more well known than the FW unit, you can help mitigate the feelings of OP-ness that comes from the scary, unknown FW unit with all its new special rules that will totally annihilate on the TT.

MrMoustaffa wrote:3. Having everything painted up to show that I put the work in to make a dedicated list. For example, if I'm running a commissar tank, it better have a Commissar leaning out of the top and be painted like a commissar tank would be.

Although not a deal breaker for me, it does show the effort that you are willing to go through to play with your cool new toys to the extent that I may not want to play against the FW rules, but I would give you a game just for the effort that you have put into making your stuff look really good.

MrMoustaffa wrote:4. Encourage them to try FW units as well. Since most likely they won't have them right off the bat, allow them to proxy whatever they wanted to use. After all, if I want to use it, they should be able to as well.

I would tread lightly here, at least at first. I would let them know that they are certainly able to take FW units in games against you, but don't come across like you are trying to push FW units. For many people, although the price gap is decreasing or even is in FW's favor, the cost of FW models is a turn off to people. If you do manage to get more people willing to accept FW, I wouldn't seek to hold them to the same standards that you hold for yourself in introducing FW. Let them proxy at first or run test game with them before they feel obligated to drop $$$ on something they may not be able to play with outside of yourself or a small group if your community does not wholeheartedly accept FW. Although I may not agree with wanting to play with FW units, I wish you good luck in your endeavor.

I can't take the argument that Forge World is too expensive seriously.

If you think that $105 for a Forge World landraider is way out of your price range, then you probably also think a $70 Landraider from GW is out of your price range.

If you can still afford GW, you can afford Forge World.


Now I can understand complaints about prices in general, but you can't complain about Forge Worlds prices and compare them to GW. They are almost to the point where they are comperable.

You are paying a little bit extra for high quality resin models, which with GWs models already being excellent quality is saying something. There are also rules for some of the models that can only be aquired from Forge World.


Most of the vehicles in the IG codex were Forge World vehicles at one time. It used to be that Hydras, Manticores, Deathstrikes, Valks and Vendettas, and all LRBT varients except the regular and the Demolisher were Forge World.

 Grey Templar wrote:
Now I can understand complaints about prices in general, but you can't complain about Forge Worlds prices and compare them to GW. They are almost to the point where they are comperable.

In some countries, it's cheaper

I can buy a complete Stone Crusher kit, which has the Carnifex kit and the resin Stone Crusher parts, for less than a Carnifex at a GW store.

Grey Templar wrote:I can't take the argument that Forge World is too expensive seriously.

If you think that $105 for a Forge World landraider is way out of your price range, then you probably also think a $70 Landraider from GW is out of your price range.

If you can still afford GW, you can afford Forge World.


Now I can understand complaints about prices in general, but you can't complain about Forge Worlds prices and compare them to GW. They are almost to the point where they are comperable.

You are paying a little bit extra for high quality resin models, which with GWs models already being excellent quality is saying something. There are also rules for some of the models that can only be aquired from Forge World.

I never said that FW's pricing is too much for me. I do personally think that $105 or even $70 is too much for a Land Raider, especially when I purchased mine for $50 more than a year ago. But it is not the price that is stopping me, I simply don't need five Land Raiders (yet). I did acknowledge that fact:

Evil Lamp 6 wrote:...although the price gap is decreasing or even is in FW's favor...

It is a valid point that some people see FW's prices and balk even more so than at GW's prices. Now think about how one would feel about paying $100+ for a model that people don't want to play against. I know that if I spent that money on something that people are saying they don't want to play with because it is a FW unit, that I would be just a bit jaded from the whole FW experience. It is certainly not my main point about why people do or do not accept FW. I am acknowledging that it is an issue to address and overcome if the OP wants to address FW acceptance with those who aren't familiar with FW.

Grey Templar wrote:Most of the vehicles in the IG codex were Forge World vehicles at one time. It used to be that Hydras, Manticores, Deathstrikes, Valks and Vendettas, and all LRBT varients except the regular and the Demolisher were Forge World.

Not that this is really relevant as to what has been historically FW or not, but ask me what I use. Go ahead ask me. You will not find a single Hydra, Manticore, Deathstrike, Valkyrie or Vendetta at all in any of my models. Nor will you find a variant LRBT that isn't just the "vanilla" Russ or Demolisher. Again not really relevant.

With all the people shopping online for discounts and ebay for second hand, using direct sales cost for a Land Raider is kind of disingenuous.

I understand your point - really - but if you're comparing prices you should use the average 20% discount a shopper would see online - and the fact that FW shipping is going to be higher 90% of the time.

rigeld2 wrote:
With all the people shopping online for discounts and ebay for second hand, using direct sales cost for a Land Raider is kind of disingenuous.

I understand your point - really - but if you're comparing prices you should use the average 20% discount a shopper would see online - and the fact that FW shipping is going to be higher 90% of the time.

Forge World charges 15% of your order for shipping outside the UK. However, Orders of over 250 Pounds get free shipping. It doesn't take much to get to 250. a couple buddies combining their order will easily meet it.

So it is also disingenious to say FW shipping is more expensive.

And not everyone buys online, dispite it being silly easy. But there can be other circumstances. The discount supplier may not ship to your area, they may be out of stock, etc...

rigeld2 wrote:
With all the people shopping online for discounts and ebay for second hand, using direct sales cost for a Land Raider is kind of disingenuous.

Those people will also go on ebay and find discounted Forgeworld products, which isn't hard (though opens up the whole counterfeit issue). Since online priced vary quite a bit, the easiest way to compare prices is RRP of each product.

 Grey Templar wrote:
So it is also disingenious to say FW shipping is more expensive.

Fair enough - having never been interested with ordering from FW I've never known that.

And not everyone buys online, dispite it being silly easy. But there can be other circumstances. The discount supplier may not ship to your area, they may be out of stock, etc...

You act like there's only one discount supplier. There's likely hundreds of places an individual could get a discount Land Raider from NIB.
There's one place to get a NIB Achilles from. And they don't discount.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 -Loki- wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
With all the people shopping online for discounts and ebay for second hand, using direct sales cost for a Land Raider is kind of disingenuous.

Those people will also go on ebay and find discounted Forgeworld products, which isn't hard (though opens up the whole counterfeit issue). Since online priced vary quite a bit, the easiest way to compare prices is RRP of each product.

The second hand market is flooded with FW recasts. Assuming one wanted to avoid all of that, it's best to buy new.

 -Loki- wrote:
I can buy a complete Stone Crusher kit, which has the Carnifex kit and the resin Stone Crusher parts, for less than a Carnifex at a GW store.

Don't know for how much longer though. Got the latest FW catalogue with IA1Vol2 and the Aeronautica book. Every thing in there has four prices - UK£, $US, the Euro and "A$", which I can only assume means Australia dollar - and yes, the A$ price is always higher (eg. Contemptor Dread US$50, A$54). So they may be about to do a redesign of their site so that prices are different based on region, and we end up paying more than everyone else for no reason (and still pay the +15% shipping, no doubt). I hope I'm wrong, but this catalogue scares me...

reaper with no name wrote:
Pitching FW to a player is all about demographics.

Look for a Space Marine player who is tired of getting beaten by flyers. Then show him the Contemptor Mortis Dreadnought.

If a Sisters of Battle player is tired of having to choose between Rhinos and Immolators, show them the Repressor.

And so on and so forth.

but in the 6th you can take armored company and ally in troops from other armies. for example some normal IG or two squads of GH with a RP.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 -Loki- wrote:
I can buy a complete Stone Crusher kit, which has the Carnifex kit and the resin Stone Crusher parts, for less than a Carnifex at a GW store.

Don't know for how much longer though. Got the latest FW catalogue with IA1Vol2 and the Aeronautica book. Every thing in there has four prices - UK£, $US, the Euro and "A$", which I can only assume means Australia dollar - and yes, the A$ price is always higher (eg. Contemptor Dread US$50, A$54). So they may be about to do a redesign of their site so that prices are different based on region, and we end up paying more than everyone else for no reason (and still pay the +15% shipping, no doubt). I hope I'm wrong, but this catalogue scares me...

That does it. Now I am definitly starting my Aussie-US plasticrack smuggling operation.

rigeld2 wrote:

 -Loki- wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
With all the people shopping online for discounts and ebay for second hand, using direct sales cost for a Land Raider is kind of disingenuous.

Those people will also go on ebay and find discounted Forgeworld products, which isn't hard (though opens up the whole counterfeit issue). Since online priced vary quite a bit, the easiest way to compare prices is RRP of each product.

The second hand market is flooded with FW recasts. Assuming one wanted to avoid all of that, it's best to buy new.

It's flooded with GW recasts as well - it's very easy to get duped into buying primed or poorly painted models, only to strip them and find they're resin. Saying that the risk is only there for FW second hand purchases is a bit disingenuous.

 Kaldor wrote:

 BryllCream wrote:
just showing up with an auto-win army and then demanding to be played that's tfg.

This is true.

However, it's dishonest to insist that FW fall into the auto-win category.

Completely missing my point again.

Saying "Is it cool if I bring along my Spartan tank next week? You can check out the rules for it online" is one thing.

Casually placing it on the table during deployment is quite another.

You should be able to tell the difference between something unknown breaking the meta, and telling someone about something, thereby making it part of the meta.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Grey Templar wrote:

Most of the vehicles in the IG codex were Forge World vehicles at one time. It used to be that Hydras, Manticores, Deathstrikes, Valks and Vendettas, and all LRBT varients except the regular and the Demolisher were Forge World.

Hydras are still Forge World exclusive.

 BryllCream wrote:

Saying "Is it cool if I bring along my Spartan tank next week? You can check out the rules for it online" is one thing.

Casually placing it on the table during deployment is quite another.

I know. I feel the same way about Long Fangs. Some guys just bring them along and don't even bother to ask first! What jerks! And don't even get me started on Necron Fliers, talk about OP! Opponents permission only for those suckers.

 Kaldor wrote:

 BryllCream wrote:

Saying "Is it cool if I bring along my Spartan tank next week? You can check out the rules for it online" is one thing.

Casually placing it on the table during deployment is quite another.

I know. I feel the same way about Long Fangs. Some guys just bring them along and don't even bother to ask first! What jerks! And don't even get me started on Necron Fliers, talk about OP! Opponents permission only for those suckers.

So you weren't aware of the existance of Space Wolf or Necron codexes?

That's your loss.

 BryllCream wrote:

 Kaldor wrote:

 BryllCream wrote:

Saying "Is it cool if I bring along my Spartan tank next week? You can check out the rules for it online" is one thing.

Casually placing it on the table during deployment is quite another.

I know. I feel the same way about Long Fangs. Some guys just bring them along and don't even bother to ask first! What jerks! And don't even get me started on Necron Fliers, talk about OP! Opponents permission only for those suckers.

So you weren't aware of the existance of Space Wolf or Necron codexes?

That's your loss.

Oh, so that's how it is? You weren't aware of it, so your loss?

Same goes for FW units, buddy.

 Kaldor wrote:

Oh, so that's how it is? You weren't aware of it, so your loss?

Same goes for FW units, buddy.

That's brilliant. Genuinely an amazing post.

Thankyou.

 BryllCream wrote:

 Kaldor wrote:

Oh, so that's how it is? You weren't aware of it, so your loss?

Same goes for FW units, buddy.

That's brilliant. Genuinely an amazing post.

Thankyou.

Anytime.

 BryllCream wrote:

 Kaldor wrote:

Oh, so that's how it is? You weren't aware of it, so your loss?

Same goes for FW units, buddy.

That's brilliant. Genuinely an amazing post.

Thankyou.

It was exactly the same statement you made, but when somebody else makes it it's a bad statement?

 Still Standing wrote:

It was exactly the same statement you made, but when somebody else makes it it's a bad statement?

I was suggesting that the notion of having never heard of Space Wolves or Necrons was absurd, wheras the average 40k player has probably heard of Forgeworld, but probably couldn't tell you any of their models, let alone the rules.

I don't have to tell my opponent that I'll be running Leman Russes next week because he knows I play guard and he knows, even if only vaguely, what that entails.

If I show up one week with something he's never heard of with a half a dozen rules he has no idea about, he has every right to refuse to play me.

 BryllCream wrote:

If I show up one week with something he's never heard of with a half a dozen rules he has no idea about, he has every right to refuse to play me.

Suppose he plays SoB then?

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 BryllCream wrote:

If I show up one week with something he's never heard of with a half a dozen rules he has no idea about, he has every right to refuse to play me.

Suppose he plays SoB then?

I play Sisters. I've never had a hard time getting somebody to play me, despite the fact that most people have no idea what my rules are. Nor have I ever had trouble getting a game with my Krieg (using the regular Krieg list).

I have never played a game against the new Necrons (I actually haven't, not a made up example for the purposes of winning the interwebs). I do not know what most of the new units do. Should I refuse to play a Necron player, or should I do the more reasonable thing and expand my hobby horizons?

 BryllCream wrote:
If I show up one week with something he's never heard of with a half a dozen rules he has no idea about, he has every right to refuse to play me.

That must make it tough when you play newly released codexes, or even just ones not familiar to you. I mean, how dare people include official standard units, in their lists without running it by you first! The audacity!

I certainly agree that when playing new or unfamiliar units, a good player takes the time to explain exactly what a unit does and provides the rules if his opponent is at all unclear. But the idea that my opponent should have some right of veto over my army, just because the units are unfamiliar is ridiculous. I certainly didn't ask permission before running my Dreadknight and Paladins for the first time, and nor will I when I get my Blight Drones for my Nurgle army.

 Kaldor wrote:

 BryllCream wrote:
If I show up one week with something he's never heard of with a half a dozen rules he has no idea about, he has every right to refuse to play me.

That must make it tough when you play newly released codexes, or even just ones not familiar to you. I mean, how dare people include official standard units, in their lists without running it by you first! The audacity!

I certainly agree that when playing new or unfamiliar units, a good player takes the time to explain exactly what a unit does and provides the rules if his opponent is at all unclear. But the idea that my opponent should have some right of veto over my army, just because the units are unfamiliar is ridiculous. I certainly didn't ask permission before running my Dreadknight and Paladins for the first time, and nor will I when I get my Blight Drones for my Nurgle army.

Maybe not in your group, but I DO have to run lists past my opponent. No, I don't get to run Paladins and I can't bring up any IA stuff. Some groups are like that. It doesn't matter how good of a player you are if you can't get a game. That is why this thread exists; to help brainstorm ways to remove the stigma surrounding FW units. All I am seeing is finger pointing and name calling, which is doing nothing to help get FW more commonly accepted in game groups.

And as a very wise man said, "Knowing is half the battle!"

Education is the only way to remove this misconception that FW units are OP. And the best (but not easiest) way is for them to see it in person. To see that most FW lists are fluff lists that will die a horrible (yet fluffy) death against even a mediocrely played codex list. These lists only excel in the environment they were designed for.

The imagination of most players gets the better of them when they see a FW unit/list on paper. There is a mixture of fear of the one thing the unit excels at that blinds them to the weakness/short-comings of the unit and envy of a beautiful model they feel they will never own. The result is a basic human response. The sad fact is that the player is 80% of the value of a unit and the stat line only 20%. Arm Chair generaling is the bane of FW.

It all comes down to the personal tastes of the player. Having spent 8 years in the US Army, I relish the unknown of battle…the idea that the best plan ever survives the first bullet sent down range. It is a challenge for me to build a list that will hold its own against any army it may fight. If I can win (or even be close) against a list I’ve never seen on the table then I’ve won.

Others hate change and being placed in uncomfortable situations. They like the idea that the biggest change they may see week to week is that Jimmy bought a 3rd Russ or Sammy added that heavy weapons team he has been saving up for. FW units are seen to change the meta game too much for the comfort of these people.

I jumped on the Red Scorpion wagon and had to work to get games in. Everyone was scared of the Tac squads with Feel No Pain. Once they saw them on the table, things changed. While problematic, they are not game changers as the arm chair generals claimed.

 Kaldor wrote:

That must make it tough when you play newly released codexes, or even just ones not familiar to you. I mean, how dare people include official standard units, in their lists without running it by you first! The audacity!

I certainly agree that when playing new or unfamiliar units, a good player takes the time to explain exactly what a unit does and provides the rules if his opponent is at all unclear. But the idea that my opponent should have some right of veto over my army, just because the units are unfamiliar is ridiculous. I certainly didn't ask permission before running my Dreadknight and Paladins for the first time, and nor will I when I get my Blight Drones for my Nurgle army.

Your opponent can refuse to play you because he doesn't like Playing Grey Knights, because he doesn't like forge world, or because he doesn't like the look of your nose. You ask if people are ok with forge world because some people are not, and it sucks having to pack your models back up. What sticker FW puts on their books doesn't matter in the slightest... All that matters is what your opponent thinks of them.

I'm always happy to obligingly let my evening be marred by the sub-GW balance and rules peddled by FW, but I don't see why everyone should have to be so accommodating. Fact is most folks who won't play FW have done so before - it is an informed choice. It's easy to convince some kid whose never had to deal with them to play, because they don't kow any better.

 Hollowman wrote:
sub-GW balance and rules peddled by FW

Citation needed. Considering GW created Vendettas, Grey Hunters and Long Fangs that's a pretty tall order.

 Hollowman wrote:
Your opponent can refuse to play you because he doesn't like Playing Grey Knights, because he doesn't like forge world, or because he doesn't like the look of your nose. You ask if people are ok with forge world because some people are not, and it sucks having to pack your models back up. What sticker FW puts on their books doesn't matter in the slightest... All that matters is what your opponent thinks of them.

Absolutely! I'm just sick of people insisting that refusing to play against FW units is somehow different to refusing to play Grey Knights or refusing to play someone with a crooked nose.

Everyone always retains their natural right to refusal. Maybe they've played six games in a row against Grey Knights and just don't feel like repeating the process. But there is no more justification for refusing to play against FW units than any of the other official Codex units, and a player shouldn't attempt to let his opponent veto his list like that. I certainly didn't hear about players refusing to play against Helldrakes, nor would I expect to hear about players asking if it's ok for them to use their new units, just because they're new.

 -Loki- wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 -Loki- wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
With all the people shopping online for discounts and ebay for second hand, using direct sales cost for a Land Raider is kind of disingenuous.

Those people will also go on ebay and find discounted Forgeworld products, which isn't hard (though opens up the whole counterfeit issue). Since online priced vary quite a bit, the easiest way to compare prices is RRP of each product.

The second hand market is flooded with FW recasts. Assuming one wanted to avoid all of that, it's best to buy new.

It's flooded with GW recasts as well - it's very easy to get duped into buying primed or poorly painted models, only to strip them and find they're resin. Saying that the risk is only there for FW second hand purchases is a bit disingenuous.

A) The point was to get something as a good comparison base for FW prices. Meaning second hand GW wasn't even something I was looking at.
B) I said that its best to use the average 20% off retail discount shop - which would mean buying new vs buying new. You can buy NIB GW stuff off eBay - often at about the same 20% off retail (or lower). Finding NIB FW stuff on eBay is rare.

 Kaldor wrote:

Absolutely! I'm just sick of people insisting that refusing to play against FW units is somehow different to refusing to play Grey Knights or refusing to play someone with a crooked nose.

Except there is. The rules aren't readily available, you can't just look in the back of the rule book to check what the stats of a unit is unlike every codex option. Nor can you grab a store copy off a shelf and flick to check something. You have to ask your opponent to have a printed out sheet with the stats on, that you can look at every time he does something.
I can understand why people don't like playing against that. The idea of checking constantly seems a little rude in my opinion, (although that happens with some new codices too) and running into things you don't expect can be frustrating. I recall being bewildered when a str:10 melta blast from a transport hit 3 of my chimerae and the DKOK inside then proceeded to assault. I didn't have a clue they could ignore the rules like that, and it caused an argument over what's more important - the new BRB or the old FW book.

Being transparent with FW units goes a long way for them to be accepted as many people have already mentioned, but in some PUGs I just don't want to be constantly asking questions or checking rules as I feel like it's equivalent to calling my opponent a cheat. Against friends it's an entirely different matter... (and a great way to learn what to expect from more common FW units.)

No, it's different because all the codexes come as a package deal when it comes to acceptance. If it's a codex, you've already accepted it as part of the "necessary accessories for the models we all play".
You need to extract the 40K from the Apocalypse in Forgeworld products first, otherwise all people will see is "optional expansion that I don't play".

So to peddle Forgeworld armies like DKOK or Corsair you need to get the message across that "there's a normal codex for normal 40k in here". Getting people to accept random units is harder.

 Kaldor wrote:

But the idea that my opponent should have some right of veto over my army, just because the units are unfamiliar is ridiculous. I certainly didn't ask permission before running my Dreadknight and Paladins for the first time, and nor will I when I get my Blight Drones for my Nurgle army.

GW disagree.

Wow. Remember that time that the conversation melted down into the very thing the OP asked for it not to, in bold with an underline?

BryllCream wrote:GW disagree.

Here's the thing: EVERY GAME OF 40K IS "OPPONENT'S PERMISSION".

You can't compel someone to play a game of 40k with you. It's not supported in the rules, and any method you could use outside of the rules might be illegal. It can't be done.

As such, since every game IS voluntary, the only difference between Experiment 626 looking at an all Strike/Interceptor GK list, looking back at his Daemon army, and walking away or you looking at a list that happens to contain a Leman Russ Annihilator or two, scoffing derisively, and walking away is the particular flavor of faux moral outrage. In the case of the GK list, I understand the frustration.

This thread seems to have expended it's usefulness. Or the last three pages should be deleted. One of the two.

 Griddlelol wrote:

Except there is. The rules aren't readily available, you can't just look in the back of the rule book to check what the stats of a unit is unlike every codex option.

Where's the rules for the Heldrake in the BRB?

 BryllCream wrote:

 Kaldor wrote:

But the idea that my opponent should have some right of veto over my army, just because the units are unfamiliar is ridiculous. I certainly didn't ask permission before running my Dreadknight and Paladins for the first time, and nor will I when I get my Blight Drones for my Nurgle army.

GW disagree.

Reading comprehension. It's a recommendation, not a must.

Uh.

No disrespect, but everyone in here is getting a real bad attitude about their posts.

Whether it's the "Force FW down their throat" team, or team "permission, or death!", you guys are getting really snippy and childish.

It looks ridiculous.

And provides for entirely fruitless discussion, if both sides are just sniping at eachother.

I really like FW stuff, it looks cool and adds some cool stuff to a codex.
I would probably say something like, "Hey man, wanna play some 40k?""I am going to use this dude as my HQ he counts as (insert special character name from FW) he does this _______. Is that cool?" I will also photocopy the page with the rules for the unit i am trying out to give to my opponent along with a copy of my list, which is a lot more than i usually get in return.

Honestly I think a campaign might be the way to go to introduce FW into a setting.

Just being a nice guy about it and not being upset if someone doesn't want to play toys with you is the way to go. If they seem reluctant just let them win, at least you got to play lol.

rigeld2 wrote:

 -Loki- wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 -Loki- wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
With all the people shopping online for discounts and ebay for second hand, using direct sales cost for a Land Raider is kind of disingenuous.

Those people will also go on ebay and find discounted Forgeworld products, which isn't hard (though opens up the whole counterfeit issue). Since online priced vary quite a bit, the easiest way to compare prices is RRP of each product.

The second hand market is flooded with FW recasts. Assuming one wanted to avoid all of that, it's best to buy new.

It's flooded with GW recasts as well - it's very easy to get duped into buying primed or poorly painted models, only to strip them and find they're resin. Saying that the risk is only there for FW second hand purchases is a bit disingenuous.

A) The point was to get something as a good comparison base for FW prices. Meaning second hand GW wasn't even something I was looking at.

If you didn't want to open the second hand market can of worms, you shodn't have. You made the first claim about buying second hand - it's right at the top of the quote tree.

rigeld2 wrote:
B) I said that its best to use the average 20% off retail discount shop - which would mean buying new vs buying new. You can buy NIB GW stuff off eBay - often at about the same 20% off retail (or lower). Finding NIB FW stuff on eBay is rare.

True enough about NIB stuff on ebay - the problem is, that's not all you were talking about in your post. You said ebay second hand, you did open it up to finding very cheap, even legitimate, Forgeworld stuff. You can't move the goal posts because you don't like where the dicussion went.

Fair enough - I didn't word my posts correctly. I've made my point though - you shouldn't compare RRP for a Land Raider to a FW price without including a discount.

Good news everyone! Talked to several people in my store about FW, and it turns out many of them own FW models that they've always wanted to try (wierdly enough, most are eldar or space marine players) Many said the same thing "yeah I use these for X in the codex, but I've always wanted to try them as what they're intended to be."

To top that off, our guy that organizes many of our tournaments is trying to start a campaign. FW is allowed with opponent's consent, and other people asked if they could use FW as well. This may be the break I was looking for. I look forward to getting to use an armored battlegroup list for the first time. Hopefully it'll actually happen.

Thank you guys so much for all the help and feedback. I know this thread has gone off the rails a couple of times but I appreciate everyone's effort to wrestle it back on track.

 MrMoustaffa wrote:
Good news everyone! Talked to several people in my store about FW, and it turns out many of them own FW models that they've always wanted to try (wierdly enough, most are eldar or space marine players) Many said the same thing "yeah I use these for X in the codex, but I've always wanted to try them as what they're intended to be."

To top that off, our guy that organizes many of our tournaments is trying to start a campaign. FW is allowed with opponent's consent, and other people asked if they could use FW as well. This may be the break I was looking for. I look forward to getting to use an armored battlegroup list for the first time. Hopefully it'll actually happen.

Thank you guys so much for all the help and feedback. I know this thread has gone off the rails a couple of times but I appreciate everyone's effort to wrestle it back on track.

AWESOME!

Lol, so there wasn't really any reason to worry in the first place

What do the other IG guys think about all this? Just out of interest.

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:
Lol, so there wasn't really any reason to worry in the first place

What do the other IG guys think about all this? Just out of interest.

One was mildly interested. The others didn't comment whatsoever.

The irony of the situation is killing me

I started 40k with IG. FW (not IA) being overpowered is absurd to me. We have literally the weapons platforms, the Hades, and Lightnings. Those are the only worthwhile things I've seen come out of FW for us. Meanwhile, SM have Contemptor Pattern Mortis Dreads, Caestus Battle Rams, Land Raider Terminus Ultras, and Lucius Pattern Drop Pods. Not to mention all the crazy stuff that Tau and Eldar get.

I think I've lost most times we've played with IA stuff, but I still do it.

 daedalus wrote:
Land Raider Terminus Ultras

Not only was it from the GW studio, it was Apocalypse only (since it was only released as an Apocalypse datasheet).

This is the sort of misinformation that hurts Forgeworld.

Yeah, Land Raider Terminus Ultra is Apoc only, and rather expensive unit at that. The Caestus Battle Ram is a rather expensive ($) model, and I haven't seen anyone use it. Personally, I'd rather just use a LR Crusader than a Caestus.

@ MrMoustaffa: Post up some game reports, man. Have fun.

 -Loki- wrote:

 daedalus wrote:
Land Raider Terminus Ultras

Not only was it from the GW studio, it was Apocalypse only (since it was only released as an Apocalypse datasheet).

This is the sort of misinformation that hurts Forgeworld.

My mistake. I meant the Achilles. The Terminus Ultra was the lascannon one (and hilariously awesome).

 daedalus wrote:
The Terminus Ultra was the lascannon one (and hilariously awesome).

It is. I can't wait to use it, and promptly blow it up by rolling a lot of 1's on my to hit rolls...

Crazyterran wrote:
People at the GW store seem to dislike my Contemptor Dreadnought.

I wonder how they'll feel when I use 2 at 2000pts.

I'm with you for some reason everyone wants to shoot at him. Just because he is there providing a 24" bubble in which I dare your flyer to enter.

 Griddlelol wrote:

 Kaldor wrote:

Absolutely! I'm just sick of people insisting that refusing to play against FW units is somehow different to refusing to play Grey Knights or refusing to play someone with a crooked nose.

Except there is. The rules aren't readily available, you can't just look in the back of the rule book to check what the stats of a unit is unlike every codex option. Nor can you grab a store copy off a shelf and flick to check something. You have to ask your opponent to have a printed out sheet with the stats on, that you can look at every time he does something.
I can understand why people don't like playing against that. The idea of checking constantly seems a little rude in my opinion, (although that happens with some new codices too) and running into things you don't expect can be frustrating. I recall being bewildered when a str:10 melta blast from a transport hit 3 of my chimerae and the DKOK inside then proceeded to assault. I didn't have a clue they could ignore the rules like that, and it caused an argument over what's more important - the new BRB or the old FW book.

Being transparent with FW units goes a long way for them to be accepted as many people have already mentioned, but in some PUGs I just don't want to be constantly asking questions or checking rules as I feel like it's equivalent to calling my opponent a cheat. Against friends it's an entirely different matter... (and a great way to learn what to expect from more common FW units.)

Suppose the C:CSM is sold out and someone tried using a helldrake

Edit: Or an even better example, what if someone has the audacity to play C:SB or field flamers/chariots of slaneesh? I suppose you'd put them up against a wall as well, wouldn't you?