I see this list and it makes me hate the amount of devastation it can bring with so few models. The land raiders can pump out up to 96 TL bolter rounds per turn. The Power field generator can give a cover save to all the vehicles if I run them in a formation. So that is 4 AV14 vehicles with 16 HP's that have a 4+ invul save. There is literally nothing to shoot if you cant hurt armor 14 then game is practically over. All you need to do is play the right time to jump out of the vehicles in an objective game.


1 Librarian (power field generator) 95pts

Command Squad Dev Banner 165pts

5 deathwing Terminators 220pts
Crusader (deathwing vehicle, MM, and Dozer Blade) 295pts

10 Tactical squad 140pts
10 Tactical squad 140pts

Crusader (MM, and Dozer Blade) 265pts
Crusader (MM, and Dozer Blade) 265pts
Crusader (MM, and Dozer Blade) 265pts

1850pts

Ya, I was playing around with a very similar idea. It is pretty sick. Just be aware the rules lawyers will jump all over you about using the banner of devastation with Hurricane Bolters...

I agree it works with them but there is a contrary opinion out there.

Hahaha was just talking about almost the same list earlier with a friend my biggest worry would be monstrous creatures namely nids will eat this list

 Arthas367 wrote:
Hahaha was just talking about almost the same list earlier with a friend my biggest worry would be monstrous creatures namely nids will eat this list

If taking to a GT how many nid list actually show up and only a few of those list have the right tools.

Only drawback being you only have 4 weapons that can hurt AV10+, and nothing to deal with Flyers.

So it will be tough to put a dent in it, it's a one-trick list that will only really shine against foot lists.

DutchSage wrote:
Only drawback being you only have 4 weapons that can hurt AV10+, and nothing to deal with Flyers.

So it will be tough to put a dent in it, it's a one-trick list that will only really shine against foot lists.

I have 4 Assault cannons and 4 multi-melta. As for fliers. I was planning on ignoring them for the most part. Not all fliers are capable of damaging me. The stormraven and the vendetta and possbily the Necron Doom Scythe.

Yea I think this is a rock paper scissor list. Some armies will auto lose to it others will go through it like butter. Overall not that competative and likely to annoy the hell out of a good amount of casual gamers.

Pony_law wrote:
Yea I think this is a rock paper scissor list. Some armies will auto lose to it others will go through it like butter. Overall not that competative and likely to annoy the hell out of a good amount of casual gamers.

This list isn't for casual play. Make that clear right now. As for the list that would destroy this could you name some popular TAC meta builds that could wreck this list with ease?

Just played this list again... Have yet to lose a land raider. The amount of damage it puts out is silly. Have to see how it does against guard. It just beat a space wolf list with 3 drop pods and allied vendetta.

Is the power field generator a cover or invo?

 schadenfreude wrote:
Is the power field generator a cover or invo?

Invulnerable save

TAC list that would give this trouble? Off the top of my head might be Necrons. Almost every gun can glance the Land Raiders. Warscythes should be able to cut down the Raiders in combat and if the Warscythes are on the flank, on Destroyer Lords, then they should only allow one turn of shooting at them,with attached Wraiths, and from only part of the LR formation. Stormteks in flyers can come down and cause a bunch of glances. You'll save some, but not all. I imagine you'd lose 3 Raiders if you play aggressively and only 2 if you stay back.

I forgot to mention scarabs. A horde of them should be able to reduce the armor of the LAnd Raiders so everything can pen them. The scarabs just need to hit the vehicle to have a 50/50 chance of reducing the armor. I don't think the invulnerable save will stop that, only the following armor pen rolls.

Yep Necrons, a pretty common army, might be the biggest bane to this list.

Good luck pulling it off.

DarthDiggler wrote:
TAC list that would give this trouble? Off the top of my head might be Necrons. Almost every gun can glance the Land Raiders. Warscythes should be able to cut down the Raiders in combat and if the Warscythes are on the flank, on Destroyer Lords, then they should only allow one turn of shooting at them,with attached Wraiths, and from only part of the LR formation. Stormteks in flyers can come down and cause a bunch of glances. You'll save some, but not all. I imagine you'd lose 3 Raiders if you play aggressively and only 2 if you stay back.

I forgot to mention scarabs. A horde of them should be able to reduce the armor of the LAnd Raiders so everything can pen them. The scarabs just need to hit the vehicle to have a 50/50 chance of reducing the armor. I don't think the invulnerable save will stop that, only the following armor pen rolls.

Yep Necrons, a pretty common army, might be the biggest bane to this list.

Scarabs are T3 right with no save to bolters. This list shoots 96 TL rounds a turn of just bolters. Basically if I let scarabs get to me then I have done something horribly wrong. Havent seen anyone run stormteks competitively yet. Only saw them once in a friendly game.

Well, how do you manage to keep three Crusaders close to the fourth one transporting the banner so that they will be able to shoot all their hurricane bolters?

I also see you having a problem with heavy mech armies. All those bolter shots aren't going to do you a bit of good against AV11. Throw in a decent amount of melta and you're going to have a problem. It's certainly a tough list, but definitely a rock-paper-scissors list.

 wuestenfux wrote:
Well, how do you manage to keep three Crusaders close to the fourth one transporting the banner so that they will be able to shoot all their hurricane bolters?

Think of a chickens foot formation. That or I pivot the back one to use mainly just the AC and MM for anti-armor for the front ones to shoot with their bolters. After I remove AV14 threats the land raiders no longer need the invul saves and can spread out.

 Tomb King wrote:

 wuestenfux wrote:
Well, how do you manage to keep three Crusaders close to the fourth one transporting the banner so that they will be able to shoot all their hurricane bolters?

Think of a chickens foot formation. That or I pivot the back one to use mainly just the AC and MM for anti-armor for the front ones to shoot with their bolters. After I remove AV14 threats the land raiders no longer need the invul saves and can spread out.

Well, I can think of three LRC side by side to bring all their hurricane bolters to bear. But its definitely difficult to achieve this for the fourth.
But you're right, you first need to remove the AV14 threats.

Also, where in the DA codex can land raiders take pintle mounted MM's?

 Tomb King wrote:
I see this list and it makes me hate the amount of devastation it can bring with so few models. The land raiders can pump out up to 96 TL bolter rounds per turn.

Isn't a hurricane bolter 3 TL boltguns? That means you list can pump out up to 4 x 2 x 3 x 2 = 48 TL boltgun rounds, or 24 TL boltgun rounds if outside of 12".

Difficult to kill, still.

It is 4 per bolt gun, so 12 per sponson, 24 in total inside 24inch and outside 24inch. If you use the banner you get salvo 2/4 (2 doesnt really apply to tanks) but you lose rapid fire

Pony_law wrote:
Yea I think this is a rock paper scissor list. Some armies will auto lose to it others will go through it like butter. Overall not that competative and likely to annoy the hell out of a good amount of casual gamers.

Ding!

There is a reason you don't see this at tourneys. Simply put -- you will run across that daemon player with 3 FMCs, and your land raiders will become swiss cheese.

You can't run a rock/paper/scissors list when there is a good portion of players play rock to your scissors.

 Tomb King wrote:

DarthDiggler wrote:
TAC list that would give this trouble? Off the top of my head might be Necrons. Almost every gun can glance the Land Raiders. Warscythes should be able to cut down the Raiders in combat and if the Warscythes are on the flank, on Destroyer Lords, then they should only allow one turn of shooting at them,with attached Wraiths, and from only part of the LR formation. Stormteks in flyers can come down and cause a bunch of glances. You'll save some, but not all. I imagine you'd lose 3 Raiders if you play aggressively and only 2 if you stay back.

I forgot to mention scarabs. A horde of them should be able to reduce the armor of the LAnd Raiders so everything can pen them. The scarabs just need to hit the vehicle to have a 50/50 chance of reducing the armor. I don't think the invulnerable save will stop that, only the following armor pen rolls.

Yep Necrons, a pretty common army, might be the biggest bane to this list.

Scarabs are T3 right with no save to bolters. This list shoots 96 TL rounds a turn of just bolters. Basically if I let scarabs get to me then I have done something horribly wrong. Havent seen anyone run stormteks competitively yet. Only saw them once in a friendly game.

Really? I can't remember the last time I saw a Necron tournament list without a few Stormteks.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 labmouse42 wrote:

Pony_law wrote:
Yea I think this is a rock paper scissor list. Some armies will auto lose to it others will go through it like butter. Overall not that competative and likely to annoy the hell out of a good amount of casual gamers.

Ding!

There is a reason you don't see this at tourneys. Simply put -- you will run across that daemon player with 3 FMCs, and your land raiders will become swiss cheese.

You can't run a rock/paper/scissors list when there is a good portion of players play rock to your scissors.

Well, to be fair there haven't been a whole lot of tournaments since the DA book came out....

 Tomb King wrote:


If taking to a GT how many nid list actually show up and only a few of those list have the right tools.

In 5th edition you would be correct - but in 6th edition Tyranids are a powerhouse. Expect to see them at tournaments in the top brackets, and expect them to bring Monstrous Creatures with Strength 7-9, Feel No Pain, and +d3 attacks. The scary thing about Warp Speed is you halve your attacks to smash first, then add in the bonuses.

I run a mech IG list that would probably eat this up. Manticore x2 + lots of Chimeras full of melta-vets (and plasma vets). I feel like 2x Manticores (especially if you are trying to hold that formation) has a good chance of dropping your whole army on turn 1. Even if it doesn't the 3 Vendettas will be showing up sooner than later with an Astropath.

IG 2000

HQ
CCS, Plasma x4, Astropath, Chimera (195)

TROOPS
Veterans, Melta x3, Chimera (155)
Veterans, Melta x3, Chimera (155)
Veterans, Melta x3, Chimera (155)
Veterans, Plamsa x3, Chimera (170)
Veterans, Plamsa x3, Chimera (170)
Veterans, Plamsa x3, Chimera (170)

HEAVY SUPPORT
Medusa
Manticore
Manticore

FAST ATTACK
Vendetta, Heavy Bolters
Vendetta, Heavy Bolters

ELITE
Guardsman Marbo

FORTIFICATION
Aegis Defense Line

What could you really do against this list. The bolters won't do anything until you knock down the Chimeras, which you probably won't do, because the Land Raiders will be dead before they get in range to fire. As long as the IG army deploys on the back line, it's an easy win. Now, don't get me wrong, this IG army has similar problems. Certain lists will just eat it for breakfast, but it is something that you may see around tournaments. mech-IG is still viable and absolutely scary to your list.

Also, basically any Necron list will beat that. It doesn't have to haev any sort of theme. Flying Monsters are probably gonna be annoying, but you could still pull it off. Regardless, I like the list. I could see it winning a tournament. Every time I play a tournie, there's that one list (or more) that I just don't want to face. Lots of the time, I don't end up having to face that list!!! They get knocked out by something else. SO as long as your list beats 90% of the standard lists out there, you have a good chance of exclusively facing beatable opponents. Since so many people are foot-slogging marines right now, I'd say that you could rock-paper-scissors your way to victory at many local tournaments. I wouldn't expect the list to be invincible, but I know it would give my Space Wolves a run for their money. In fact, I have no idea how I would compete with that list with my Wolves. I could make a list that had enough lascannons and Thunderhammers to bring it down, but it wouldn't be a list I'd take to a tournament. It'd have to be tailored to beat yours. I don't think I've ever made a balanced SW tournament list that could compete with the 4 Land Raiders. Sad reality. The only chance would be getting turn 1, drop podding loads of melta hunters and Wolf Guard and praying that I could pop the Libby's Raider and finish him off turn 1!!!!

I think people are seriously underestimating how much of a pain this list is.

First off, how much pure mech do you even see at tourneys anymore? 6th edition is a foot based game. Competitive events have shown this again and again thus far. Some armies can utilize mech, but relying on it is bad. This is because Cron flyer spam is just a better version.

Speaking of flyers, which ones can really do anything to this list? Stormravens with multi-melta can, but are not often seen. Doomscythes can, but even they still need a 5 or 6 to penetrate with only one shot (and the Raiders get a 4++ against it). Vendettas can pen on a 6.

Gauss weaponry can take on Raiders, but with a 4++, Gauss weapons need to average eight 6's in order to rip off the 4 hull points. This means it takes an average of 72 Gauss shots to glance a 4++ Land Raider to death.

Melta is still a threat, but premeasuring makes it easier to avoid than ever before. Stormteks are perhaps the biggest real threat, and it will still likely take two 5 count Warriors + Stormteks to achieve the glance death.

Ultimately, I'm not saying this list is unbeatable--it has issues. I'm not claiming that this list isn't a rock--it is. However, this is a very hard rock to deal with.

Dark Eldar: you are tabled in two turns, three if you're lucky.

 Mandor wrote:
Dark Eldar: you are tabled in two turns, three if you're lucky.

Someone tailored an all night shroud dark eldar list against it:
Just played against a dark eldar list that had 3 void raven bombers and several lance weapons including the trueborn lance package. The list actually held up pretty well. I lost my first land raider I believe on turn 3. Though he was vector dancing with his fliers all game and on turn 5 we realized they didnt have vector dancer. It was bottom of five so I just moved over and contested his objective he had and had mine and we called it there. With the change in his fliers constantly having angles on me no telling what the result would of been like as they were the main threat with S9 lance.

With the amount of lance he was putting into the raiders they still held up even though all 3 void raven bombers showed up turn 2 as well as a trueborn squad in a venom that deepstriked next to the raiders. I suffered no damage on turn 2.

Considering your other thread about DA Land Raider spam, this list would be possible with most other codexes as well.

I tried to address the lack of anti-air in my list while making the raiders even more survivable by adding techmarines. Tomb King let me know what you think. My list is bumped up to 2000 as thats what my friends and i usually play.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/502240.page

Necronic Angel wrote:I tried to address the lack of anti-air in my list while making the raiders even more survivable by adding techmarines. Tomb King let me know what you think. My list is bumped up to 2000 as thats what my friends and i usually play.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/502240.page

I like the list but I wouldn't say the Nephilim Fighter is good anti-air its more of anti-troop flier. In addition, if you planning on staying in the land raiders what is the 2nd librarian doing? The invul is only a 4+ rather then 3+. However, I think your list could do well. Mine only has one more land raider in it with deathwing. Gives me a unit I wouldn't mind sacrificing and throwing at an objective. To help with the lack of troops I try to roll on personal. With luck I can make the librarian scoring but dont count on that. Either way I think its the best chart to roll on for this list.

SoloFalcon1138 wrote:Considering your other thread about DA Land Raider spam, this list would be possible with most other codexes as well.

With the difference being dark angels can give them a 4+ invul saves and make the hurricane bolters salvo 4 per bolter aka 24 shots at range per land raider.

 SoloFalcon1138 wrote:
Considering your other thread about DA Land Raider spam, this list would be possible with most other codexes as well.

Though what makes it viable in DA is that they can give their raiders a constant +4 invul and salvo bolters, others codex can't.

 Tomb King wrote:

SoloFalcon1138 wrote:Considering your other thread about DA Land Raider spam, this list would be possible with most other codexes as well.

With the difference being dark angels can give them a 4+ invul saves and make the hurricane bolters salvo 4 per bolter aka 24 shots at range per land raider.

Had a good smile at this one.

I'm inspired to run a 3 LR list all venerable to try this out. Also love the thought of running a cheap Techmarine + servitors for repairs with them. For me 1 unit of DWK in a LR and the rest Tacticals rather than terms I feel is worth running.

A good Tac Ravinwing army played well should do well against you list. I would have at min 4 full squads of Ravinwing attack bikes in my tac list with each squad having 2 melta guns and and an attack bike with multi-melta. that would be plenty to take out 4 landraiders. And take out any thing with armour save.

 starraptor wrote:
A good Tac Ravinwing army played well should do well against you list. I would have at min 4 full squads of Ravinwing attack bikes in my tac list with each squad having 2 melta guns and and an attack bike with multi-melta. that would be plenty to take out 4 landraiders. And take out any thing with armour save.

The melta's have to get close to be effective. The bolters alone would kill 10 bikes a turn. The assault cannons another 5 and the multi-melta's another 3. That is 500 of your points in one shooting phase. This isnt taking into the account you rolling awesome or poorly.

this list does look pretty tough dont get me wrong, but any standard de venom spam list will counter it really hard, and venom spam is the most prevalent army you'll see from dark eldar in tourneys and such. any standard venoms list will be packing usually around 21-24 dark lances not including the fact that they'll probably have a squad or two of haywire wyches which can strip a landraider of its hp in one turn easy, and then the units inside will be facing 108 poisoned shots from the venoms alone. So if you use it at a tourney just pray that you never have to face a dark eldar player, otherwise im sure you'll be fine.

this list does look pretty tough dont get me wrong, but any standard de venom spam list will counter it really hard, and venom spam is the most prevalent army you'll see from dark eldar in tourneys and such. any standard venoms list will be packing usually around 21-24 dark lances not including the fact that they'll probably have a squad or two of haywire wyches which can strip a landraider of its hp in one turn easy, and then the units inside will be facing 108 poisoned shots from the venoms alone. So if you use it at a tourney just pray that you never have to face a dark eldar player, otherwise im sure you'll be fine.

Dark Eldar Venom spam is played in tourneys still? That's news to me. I haven't seen it in 6th. As a Dark Eldar player in 5th, I can tell you that the list stopped working once GK came out.

flaming tadpole wrote:
this list does look pretty tough dont get me wrong, but any standard de venom spam list will counter it really hard, and venom spam is the most prevalent army you'll see from dark eldar in tourneys and such. any standard venoms list will be packing usually around 21-24 dark lances not including the fact that they'll probably have a squad or two of haywire wyches which can strip a landraider of its hp in one turn easy, and then the units inside will be facing 108 poisoned shots from the venoms alone. So if you use it at a tourney just pray that you never have to face a dark eldar player, otherwise im sure you'll be fine.

Unless your running night shrouds the venoms only have 2 HP. Just hope the land raiders dont go first. 96TL S4 shots add up fast. I took down 3 landspeeders with a single tactical squad with glances.

TK,

How would you scale your list up to 1999+1 points?

edit: one option I was toying with was removing the terminators plus their dedicated landraider, and adding two more tac squads. Then give twin lascannon razorbacks to all 4 tac squads. I think it would help get some long range anti tank into the list.

Might as wall hover some Dark Talons to boost your massIve hurricane bolter fire with the dev banner.

I think it is a very hard list for many armies. 6th does seem to produce a lot of hard counters, venom spam and this list I see whatever goes first wins.
I do think a couple of IG builds can counter this as could a couple Tau builds and ironically several DA builds.

Agreed. I don't think you're playing against the greatest tests lists. It will be insanely difficult for many. It will be doable for any mech army packing 4 melta units. This used to be super common 5th. Now we have to make sacrifices in AT to handle AI. Don't act like 4 assault cannons and 4 multi meltas is a lot of anti tank though. Most of the time it will be enough, but it is not a lot. That 4++ invul is just annoying as hell though. 90% of what GW puts out is quite balanced. It's the 10% that we all look for to abuse the crap out of hahaha. This is definitely part of the 10%.

 EOD Tech wrote:
TK,

How would you scale your list up to 1999+1 points?

edit: one option I was toying with was removing the terminators plus their dedicated landraider, and adding two more tac squads. Then give twin lascannon razorbacks to all 4 tac squads. I think it would help get some long range anti tank into the list.

There are several options and it will vary depending on your meta.

One valid scale up would be.
Drop librarian -95pts
Drop Deathwing landraider -295pts
Drop Deathwing Terminators -220pts
Total available now: 390 + 220 + 150 = 760pts


Belial TH/SH 190pts
Pick up techmarine w/ shield generator 80pts
5 Deathwing Terminators with CML 245pts
5 Deathwing Terminators with CML 245pts
Total: 2000pts

Or

Keep librarian 95pts
10 tacticals w/ FLak Missle upgrade 165pts
10 tacticals w/ FLak Missle upgrade 165pts
10 tacticals w/ FLak Missle upgrade 165pts
ADL Quadgun 100pts
Add Flak missles upgrade missle launchers 2 both tactical squads already in list 50pts
Total 1990pts
10 pts left over for whatever you want.

Have you gone up against Fate Weaver demon lists running 27 Screamers of Tzeentch yet? they will gnaw through those raiders with their "Lamprey Bite" attacks in about 2 turns. My friend Nick won NOVA 2011 and placed second in NOVA 2012 invitational, both times with Demon lists. I bet any competative Demon lists spamming Fateweaver with screamers, flamers, and flying monstrous demons princes will give you a lot of trouble even with powerfield generator 4++.

And this critique is coming from a fellow DA player. But other than that, I like the list.

Hey Tom! Yeah, this list is nasty but does have issues with fate weaver daemons. However, if this list wanted to, it could add anti daemon counters in the form of a null zone Libby battle brother when scaling up to 2000. It could also trade the deathwing raider for an allied presence without adding points, changing it from a land raider spam army to a balanced 3 land raider army, with da tacticals behind an aegis with quad gun and allied null zone to crush daemons, and a thunder fire for anti cover attacks.
Balanced Da bolter banner armies have an advantage here because nick must close to within firing range to hurt the da, meaning besides flyover attacks on screamers or suicide flamers the da always get the first shots. Los blocking terrain being present in large blocks is nicks best chance, as he must get the first strike to succeed.

DevianID wrote:
Hey Tom! Yeah, this list is nasty but does have issues with fate weaver daemons. However, if this list wanted to, it could add anti daemon counters in the form of a null zone Libby battle brother when scaling up to 2000. It could also trade the deathwing raider for an allied presence without adding points, changing it from a land raider spam army to a balanced 3 land raider army, with da tacticals behind an aegis with quad gun and allied null zone to crush daemons, and a thunder fire for anti cover attacks.
Balanced Da bolter banner armies have an advantage here because nick must close to within firing range to hurt the da, meaning besides flyover attacks on screamers or suicide flamers the da always get the first shots. Los blocking terrain being present in large blocks is nicks best chance, as he must get the first strike to succeed.

Hey dude! Yah, the allied Space Marine Libby with Nullzone power is something I haven't thought of. Points well taken sir.

Another unit that could counter Deamons more head on could be (In the current list) Dropping the Termies for an Allied squad of GK Strike Marines in a LR with one of their HQ's that have those crazy Grenades (Its been a while since I've played).

I don't have the models with me to try it but that would create a 12" bubble around the raider that would cause Deep Striking units to Mishap. Again, I'm not sure if this would work due to the pure size of the land raiders. But I figured I'd chime in and say it.

Regardless I love the list, I've always thought Land Raider lists were awesome, and with a 4++ save it makes it that much better.

EDIT: They would not benefit from the 4++ since they aren't Battle Brothers, so this idea may be null. Unless you want to give them a Librarian with shrouding then throw them behind the lead LR. I'm not sure how you were going to put them into formation with all of them having the ability to fire with full effect, so it may not matter. Just an idea.

I wonder how my list would do against this one:

Hive Tyrant /w Wings, 2 TL Devourers, and Hive Commander
Hive Tyrant /w Wings, 2 TL Devourers, and Old Adversary

Tervigon w/ Catalyst and TS
Tervigon w/ Catalyst and TS
10 Termagants
10 Termagants
10 Termagants

1 Doom of Malan'tai in Pod
2 Zoanthropes
2 Zoanthropes

Carnifex with TL Devourers in Pod
Carnifex with TL Devourers in Pod

Skyshield Landing Pad

 Tomb King wrote:

 starraptor wrote:
A good Tac Ravinwing army played well should do well against you list. I would have at min 4 full squads of Ravinwing attack bikes in my tac list with each squad having 2 melta guns and and an attack bike with multi-melta. that would be plenty to take out 4 landraiders. And take out any thing with armour save.

The melta's have to get close to be effective. The bolters alone would kill 10 bikes a turn. The assault cannons another 5 and the multi-melta's another 3. That is 500 of your points in one shooting phase. This isnt taking into the account you rolling awesome or poorly.

So basicicly your answer to everything is your invincible, good luck with that.

Well, it wouldn't be a true TAC list but if I'd drop all Lootas and Rokkit Deffkoptas, and keep Wazz and Bikerboss with an all Bike list and NobBikers, I'd be able to take out at least 2 LR's if you didn't disembark the Termies. Then, you'd more than likely win anyways.

I'd still lose but I'd dent it at least.

revackey wrote:Another unit that could counter Deamons more head on could be (In the current list) Dropping the Termies for an Allied squad of GK Strike Marines in a LR with one of their HQ's that have those crazy Grenades (Its been a while since I've played).

I don't have the models with me to try it but that would create a 12" bubble around the raider that would cause Deep Striking units to Mishap. Again, I'm not sure if this would work due to the pure size of the land raiders. But I figured I'd chime in and say it.

Regardless I love the list, I've always thought Land Raider lists were awesome, and with a 4++ save it makes it that much better.

EDIT: They would not benefit from the 4++ since they aren't Battle Brothers, so this idea may be null. Unless you want to give them a Librarian with shrouding then throw them behind the lead LR. I'm not sure how you were going to put them into formation with all of them having the ability to fire with full effect, so it may not matter. Just an idea.

They dont have to be battle brothers to benefit from the 4++ all models friend or enemy within 3" get the invul save.

starraptor wrote:

 Tomb King wrote:

 starraptor wrote:
A good Tac Ravinwing army played well should do well against you list. I would have at min 4 full squads of Ravinwing attack bikes in my tac list with each squad having 2 melta guns and and an attack bike with multi-melta. that would be plenty to take out 4 landraiders. And take out any thing with armour save.

The melta's have to get close to be effective. The bolters alone would kill 10 bikes a turn. The assault cannons another 5 and the multi-melta's another 3. That is 500 of your points in one shooting phase. This isnt taking into the account you rolling awesome or poorly.

So basicicly your answer to everything is your invincible, good luck with that.

No, they are definitely not invincible by any means of the imagination but neither is it a push over list like some people seem to suggest. I have yet to lose with it in all the matchs and it has taken on some of the builds that have been suggested as ones that would slaughter it without a fight. Here I will give you a little scenario just for kicks to help draw the picture. Obviously put in a vacuum here. What TAC build would you take against this list that is also built for the current meta? You have first turn DoW. 3 objectives 2 on your side and one centrally located. After deciding your build what would be ur first turn moves and actions. Be sure to include the strength and AP of what you are shooting and I we will math hammer out your chances of success and then I would let you know my counter action. So in a vacuum your turn 1 good sir.

Allies of convenience are treated as enemy models... Pretty sure that's damn near a quote. So I really can't see that working out. Battle brothers sure. Anything else no. That is my impression anyways??

Living Still wrote:
Allies of convenience are treated as enemy models... Pretty sure that's damn near a quote. So I really can't see that working out. Battle brothers sure. Anything else no. That is my impression anyways??

Even enemy models get the invulnerable save from the Power Field.

Haha, that's a lot of hate going towards your list. Good sign!

It's already been said...rock/paper/scissors match-up, the list is by no means unbeatable, etc. In any case, I think it would be pretty neat to play against with a TAC list.

There is one thing to keep in mind while calculating everything. Due to the size of the land raiders, at least one Land Raider will not be getting the 4++ OR at least one Land Raider will not be able to shoot with all its guns. Unless I'm missing something?

I haven't put much thought into it, but what do you think of this?

Your librarian (warlord) is slightly more survivable with a 2+. You have 3 scoring units without combat squads. More importantly, all of this comes to only 1680 points. You still have a whopping 170 points left to do whatever you want.

How would my RTT list fare against yours:

2x Destructor Lords w/ weave

2x 10 Immortals w/ Night Scythe

10 Warriors w/ Night Scythe

3x 5 Wraiths

3x Annihilation Barge

Basically, only my Lords, the Wraiths and the Warriors can do some damage to your Land Raiders. I thought about dropping one DLord and adding an Overlord and a Stormtek.

I'd play very aggressively to reach your LR's asap with my Wraiths and the Dlords.

definitely looks solid you may find neither the banner nor the powerfield will work outside the landraider they are in when the full faq comes out.

I run 4 stormteks in my necrons. but this would cause me problems. If you're taking landraiders this is the way to do it. Deathray causes you problems as you're gifting him 3 hits per turn.

MC spam nids could cause you problems but your bolters should do 3.55 wounds a turn to nid mcs assuming 72 shots. plus the other weapons you should kill an MC and a half a turn. Then to terminators can counter charge one. So realistically the nids are going to need 5+ MCs to cause you a real problem.

I have to question these games you keep reffering to. You said you beat a solid DE player, yet you said he had 3 voidravens, which, are not ideal in the slightest. You then acted like NS were not standard, which they are against any good DE player in 6th. Literally NS alone counter your list almost completely.

I think the most damning knock against your list is the new BRB FAQ that only lets you allocate wounds up to your highest ranged weapon. Meaning against a good fast army like ravenwing, you probably are not going to kill 10 bikes a turn because your range and LOS around your own tanks sucks.

Really would like to see the lists you have played against rather then, "I've beaten everyone I have played," sort of claims. Because there are people in my local meta that I have literally let take an extra turn just to make the game closer, I assume they exist near you as well.

I don't see how night shields autobeat this list. They get you the alphastrike but since your weapons are short ranged in the most part unless you're giving up against flyer armies i don't see how that guarantees victory? You could tailor to beat this list by raider ravaged spam with ns but even then how lo.g can you stay out of range. The best bet would be 6 haywire wyche squads in venoms. But that is pretty pants against everything else.

 Tomb King wrote:

No, they are definitely not invincible by any means of the imagination but neither is it a push over list like some people seem to suggest. I have yet to lose with it in all the matchs and it has taken on some of the builds that have been suggested as ones that would slaughter it without a fight. Here I will give you a little scenario just for kicks to help draw the picture. Obviously put in a vacuum here. What TAC build would you take against this list that is also built for the current meta? You have first turn DoW. 3 objectives 2 on your side and one centrally located. After deciding your build what would be ur first turn moves and actions. Be sure to include the strength and AP of what you are shooting and I we will math hammer out your chances of success and then I would let you know my counter action. So in a vacuum your turn 1 good sir.

Mek with KFF and powerclaw
Warboss with mega armour

8 mega armour nobs
10 grots
10 grots
17 Shootaboyz with powerclawnob
20 shootaboyz with powerclawnob
20 shootaboyz with powerclawnob

5 loota's
5 loota's
5 loota's

Battlewagon with deffrolla, extra armour, paintjob and big shoota
Battlewagon with deffrolla, extra armour, paintjob and big shoota
Battlewagon with deffrolla, extra armour, paintjob and big shoota
Battlewagon with deffrolla, extra armour, paintjob and big shoota (dedicated transport nobs)

I think these battlewagons will "roll" over your landraiders at sum point or get a few charging powerclaws with S9 or S10. Loota's are in their to make it more of a TAC list.

Its a tough list though...

At 1850 points I have 2 Vindicators, 3 Broadside suits (in a Bastion), and Null Zone, and that's before we even look at melta weapons. The Land Raiders will have to be in a tight formation which will potentially allow multiple hits from one Vindicator. Overall, this style of army does not impress me much.

That said I think it will certainly win most of its games, because the metagame is currently unstable enough that most people don't seem to have anything even close to balanced armies in this edition.

I'm just curious if the standards were meant to work for vehicles and if hurricane bolters count as regular boltguns. Also how do the other Land Raiders see the standard lol. If you never disembark them then you don't even really need to have a model with the standard in the first place. Just say you have it inside the indestructable LR lol.

Side note: If i brought this list to my game store no one would play me... Nice job Tomb King

shogun wrote:

 Tomb King wrote:

No, they are definitely not invincible by any means of the imagination but neither is it a push over list like some people seem to suggest. I have yet to lose with it in all the matchs and it has taken on some of the builds that have been suggested as ones that would slaughter it without a fight. Here I will give you a little scenario just for kicks to help draw the picture. Obviously put in a vacuum here. What TAC build would you take against this list that is also built for the current meta? You have first turn DoW. 3 objectives 2 on your side and one centrally located. After deciding your build what would be ur first turn moves and actions. Be sure to include the strength and AP of what you are shooting and I we will math hammer out your chances of success and then I would let you know my counter action. So in a vacuum your turn 1 good sir.

Mek with KFF and powerclaw
Warboss with mega armour

8 mega armour nobs
10 grots
10 grots
17 Shootaboyz with powerclawnob
20 shootaboyz with powerclawnob
20 shootaboyz with powerclawnob

5 loota's
5 loota's
5 loota's

Battlewagon with deffrolla, extra armour, paintjob and big shoota
Battlewagon with deffrolla, extra armour, paintjob and big shoota
Battlewagon with deffrolla, extra armour, paintjob and big shoota
Battlewagon with deffrolla, extra armour, paintjob and big shoota (dedicated transport nobs)

I think these battlewagons will "roll" over your landraiders at sum point or get a few charging powerclaws with S9 or S10. Loota's are in their to make it more of a TAC list.

Its a tough list though...

What in your army requires me to keep formation? I could actually spread out against you and try to hit the weaker side armor of the battlewagons. Either way I think it would be a pretty even match-up. Would love to play it out. Fighting against a similarly designed build. Might even consider deep striking the terminators.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 wuestenfux wrote:
How would my RTT list fare against yours:

2x Destructor Lords w/ weave

2x 10 Immortals w/ Night Scythe

10 Warriors w/ Night Scythe

3x 5 Wraiths

3x Annihilation Barge

Basically, only my Lords, the Wraiths and the Warriors can do some damage to your Land Raiders. I thought about dropping one DLord and adding an Overlord and a Stormtek.

I'd play very aggressively to reach your LR's asap with my Wraiths and the Dlords.

I faced a list that had a similar build. My primary threat would be the destroyer lords with weave and then the wraiths. Do the warriors carry tesla or gauss? I would have to do a lot of wounds to bring down 15 wraiths and 2 destroyer lords before you get to me. It would be a tough match-up for me. Though I feel if I could kill both the lords that the wraiths would struggle statistically to damage me consistently.

Target Priority:
1. Destroyer lords
2. Wraiths
3. night scythe's
totally ignore annihilation barge's unless no other target is present.

I guess my question about the viability of this list is regarding highly mobile armies, like biker armies and non-foot Eldar/Dark Eldar.

In order to keep the 3" formation, you would have to run the LRs with their hulls practically touching. A mobile force could effectively negate your use of half of the hurricane bolters by just attacking heavily on one flank and sticking to LOS breaking cover. Eldar can easily jump sides each turn, keeping you from really advancing much toward objectives all while taking pot shots and eventually bringing down your LRs over time.

I wonder if maybe 3 LRs would be more effective and flexible in the long run, since it would free up points to allow you to bring in some of your own anti tank units and is a bit more manuverable.

anthXIII wrote:
I'm just curious if the standards were meant to work for vehicles and if hurricane bolters count as regular boltguns. Also how do the other Land Raiders see the standard lol. If you never disembark them then you don't even really need to have a model with the standard in the first place. Just say you have it inside the indestructable LR lol.

Side note: If i brought this list to my game store no one would play me... Nice job Tomb King

Points well taken sir... although:

as far as wargear, such as standards for example, working from within a vehicle is concerned, GW has FAQ on this point in Rulebook FAQ/Errata on their website:

"Q: Do embarked passengers with ‘area of effect’ wargear, such as
the Big Mek’s Kustom Force Field, measure the range of such items
from the hull of the transport they are embarked upon? (p78)
A: Yes"

so the standard of devastation WOULD work from within the inside of a Land Raider or any other transport vehicle available to be used by the DA in their Codex.

However, I am going to strongly assume that GW will FAQ the question of whether or not 'Hurricane Bolters' count towards the weapon description that the Standard of Devastation encompasses:
pg. 66 Standard of Devastation: "Any friendly Codex: Dark Angels unit within 12" of this standard re-rolls failed Morale and Pinning tests. In addition, all friendly Codex: Dark Angels units within 6" of the standard treat their boltguns as Salvo 2/4 weapons".

As mentioned in many posts and blogs, according to pg. 60 of the new DA codex:

" A hurricane bolter consists of three twin-linked boltguns fired as a single weapon."

So this factor is open up to interpretation.

Also, a vehicle IS a unit type according to the Big Rule Book:

"Most vehicles fight as individual units and are represented by a single model" (pg. 77 BRB).

So I believe the Standard of Devastation would allow a Land Raider Crusader with 'Hurricane Bolter' sponsons to use its ability within its required radius and even if the model carrying it is embarked in the vehicle as long as the 'Hurricane Bolter' weapon interpretation is accepted by your local gamer group, TO, or made clear by GW in the near future by errata/faq.

I like the list. Its got an answer for most things, except fliers, but can hold its own against a lot of differant builds. My greatest fear if I was running that list would be bugs (Zoey's, Monsters) and Chaos (Maulerfiends, Oblitz, Combi weapon termies). Mostly these two because the bolters dont do much to the Biomancied creatures, nor would they do much to the Maulerfiends, or Nurgle Oblitz. The Deamons could be a problem, but the sheer shooting would kill a lot of deamons. It would be interesting to watch that game.

I love the Land Raider, but games with them can go bad real fast if someone pops a couple early. It does happen, not very often, but that doesnt help you when it does happen.

I think Im going to try this list out a couple times, and see if folks can come up with lists that can beat it.

Norbu the Destroyer wrote:
I like the list. Its got an answer for most things, except fliers, but can hold its own against a lot of differant builds. My greatest fear if I was running that list would be bugs (Zoey's, Monsters) and Chaos (Maulerfiends, Oblitz, Combi weapon termies). Mostly these two because the bolters dont do much to the Biomancied creatures, nor would they do much to the Maulerfiends, or Nurgle Oblitz. The Deamons could be a problem, but the sheer shooting would kill a lot of deamons. It would be interesting to watch that game.

I love the Land Raider, but games with them can go bad real fast if someone pops a couple early. It does happen, not very often, but that doesnt help you when it does happen.

I think Im going to try this list out a couple times, and see if folks can come up with lists that can beat it.

You will definitely have to post how you do and what list brings it down. You gonna be going back to the INDY open? I am trying to make it again this year. Perhaps a finals rematch is in order

 Tomb King wrote:

 Mandor wrote:
Dark Eldar: you are tabled in two turns, three if you're lucky.

Someone tailored an all night shroud dark eldar list against it:
Just played against a dark eldar list that had 3 void raven bombers and several lance weapons including the trueborn lance package. The list actually held up pretty well. I lost my first land raider I believe on turn 3. Though he was vector dancing with his fliers all game and on turn 5 we realized they didnt have vector dancer. It was bottom of five so I just moved over and contested his objective he had and had mine and we called it there. With the change in his fliers constantly having angles on me no telling what the result would of been like as they were the main threat with S9 lance.

With the amount of lance he was putting into the raiders they still held up even though all 3 void raven bombers showed up turn 2 as well as a trueborn squad in a venom that deepstriked next to the raiders. I suffered no damage on turn 2.

hmm, my TAC 1850 has 12 dark lances on nightshielded vehicles. Not spammed to hard. There are a few blasters in there but they dont outrange the bolters, so its kind of a 1 way trip. It also has a bunch of haywire wyches to finishing things off.

12 lances, 9 hit, 3 pens and 1.5 glances before invuln. 1.5 pens and .75 glances. That should kill a land raider ever 2 turns easily. Once 2 are down(end of turn 4), charge up and bring the blasters to bear and the wyches. With 6 more lances from the blasters and the haywire charge you should kill all the raiders on turn 5 and start making a dent in the squishy bits inside.

I like my chances, but with die you never know. That said my TAC DE isn't that great in 6th.

Yes but you get maybe 1 turn of shooting all those dls before he's in range. So you maybe kill 1 if you go first before you start losing dark lances fast..

 FlingitNow wrote:
Yes but you get maybe 1 turn of shooting all those dls before he's in range. So you maybe kill 1 if you go first before you start losing dark lances fast..

You guys keep forgeting about things like speed and mobility. Armys like Dark Eldar, Eldar mech, and Ravinwing are going to be so mobile a decent player is just going to use terrain to manuver you into positions were you cant fire most of your weapons. Also all your weapons are 24 inch range wich give mobile armys the time to get into postion to kill your landraiders before you can use all your shots effectivly. Trust me 4+ invuls are not the end all be all especially since there is only 4 models to shoot at in you army.

You seem to forget that the lr can move 18" and that a table has a limited size. The mobility enables you getting the alphastrike and that's about it.

You seem to forget if you move that much you cant fire your weapons except machine spirit, while fast armys can move 12 inch plus and shoot.

Yes they are faster it means they shoot first. Perhaps even 2 rounds of shooting. Then you are cornered and have nowhere to go to stay out of the 36" threat range. Go to you table and measure a circle with radius 36" so a diameter 72" start it in the front and centre of a deployment zone and see where you can go.

 starraptor wrote:
You seem to forget if you move that much you cant fire your weapons except machine spirit, while fast armys can move 12 inch plus and shoot.

I believe POTMS and snap-shots for them if they are transports.

Thats all fine and dandy except you guys keep neglecting 1 KEY FACT, there is something call terrain in the game. Most armys are much much better at using terrain to there advantage than an all landraider army, especailly fast armys. But this is the last time I will reply because you guys keep insisting your army is unbeatuble unless you tailerlist your army. I doudt you guys have actually tested the matches you said you have and if you had good for you playing bad players who didnt know how to use terrain. Or more likely you guys didnt play with/or had extremly little terrain wich is a bad way to play the game.

 starraptor wrote:
Thats all fine and dandy except you guys keep neglecting 1 KEY FACT, there is something call terrain in the game. Most armys are much much better at using terrain to there advantage than an all landraider army, especailly fast armys. But this is the last time I will reply because you guys keep insisting your army is unbeatuble unless you tailerlist your army. I doudt you guys have actually tested the matches you said you have and if you had good for you playing bad players who didnt know how to use terrain. Or more likely you guys didnt play with/or had extremly little terrain wich is a bad way to play the game.

Yea if you win with this list you either played a newb or with no terrain. I sincerely have yet to lose with this list and your passionate hate for the list is a little confusing tbh. If you dont like the list you dont like the list. No need to take it a step further and attack other peoples credibility. No one said the list needed to be tailored for this list to lose to it. We just addresses the fact that the meta has been kind of moving away from melta. I nearly played a guy earlier who had no way of dealing with armor 14. In addition, people are talking about MSU noise marine builds in the tactics forum. Every list posted so could not hurt armor 14 beyond glancing it to death. Beyond oblits and melta guns chaos really struggle against this list in general. The all powerful helldrakes cant even harm them. MY TAC necrons list only had 2 units that could hurt AV14. I might need to fix that now though.

Do Dark Angel Land Raiders have something against the Lance rule? Because if not Dark Eldar can chew through this list fast

When you think about it for a while, this list is very hard to counter with TAC list. For example, most GK tac lists have only DK's that can hurt the LR's with any consistency (rending psycannons aren't that hot against AV14 with 4++)

Of course, there are obvious hard counters the basic list, many that have been presented here: DE Dark Lance spam, Flamer/Screamer Daemon list, GK henchman psyker spam (6 S10 AP1 large blasts / turn. 4+/5+ DTW will lessen the effect a quite a lot, but there will still be 2-3 blasts per turn getting through, each hitting 2-3 LR's.

But outside Daemons, how often do you actually see those lists used?

Terrain obviously plays large role. If you use huge amounts of impassable terrain, this list suddenly loses practically all synergies gained from 4++ and the standard of devastation and becomes standard LR spam.

But you also need to consider two things: 1) Basic assumption is that 25% of board is terrain. How much of this is impassable? 1/3-1/4?
2) If you use the rulebook terrain placement rules, it's can be surprisingly hard to place that Impassable terrain for full effect.

Luide a slight correct on grey knights. Psycannons are better than 2 lascannons against av14. So the Psycannon spam is a problem for this list.

But as stated many people have significantly less anti av14 in this edition.

Dark eldar lance weapons are generally short ranged or on flyers and neither of the eldar races are top tier.

Screamer spam daemons are top tier and that could cause you a real problem. Id forgotten about them.

Though this list has made me rethink my necrons dropping a warrior and scythe for a Doomscythe. As is I'd drop two double stormtek units next to your LRs and if i kill both i probably win the game if not i lose.

 CaptainHonkey wrote:
Do Dark Angel Land Raiders have something against the Lance rule? Because if not Dark Eldar can chew through this list fast

No, they have not. Just BT has blessed hull. But the LR's will benefit from a 4++ save.

If anyone wants to tryout their tac list against it or wanting to see how I play the list they can meet me on vassal for a game. Just give me a time in the evening or sometime this weekend.

I am actually playing on vassal right now against a space wolves build. We will see how I hold up to wolf lord with a thunder hammer.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Here was his list I will post the vassal report tomorrow with screen shots. It was a hard fought game and with 5 objectives it was a challenge. i managed to win 2 obj to 1 obj and I also claimed slay the warlord and first blood. The deathwing terminators and DW vehicle were the only major casualties. The list is still undefeated. That 4++ save was hot tonight.

HQ: Wolf Lord in Power Armour (3#, 295 pts)
. . 1 Wolf Lord in Power Armour (Storm Shield + Thunder Hammer + Runic Armour + Wolf Tail Talisman + Wolftooth Necklace + Thunderwolf Mount + Saga of the Bear)
. . . . 2 Fenrisian Wolf

Fast Attack: Thunderwolf Cavalry (2#, 175 pts)
. . 1 Thunderwolf Cavalry
. . . . 1 Thunderwolf Cavalry (Storm Shield + Power Sword)
. . . . 1 Thunderwolf Cavalry (Storm Shield)

HQ: Rune Priest in Power Armour (1#, 110 pts)
. . 1 Rune Priest in Power Armour + Chooser of the Slain

HQ: Rune Priest in Power Armour (1#, 100 pts)
. . 1 Rune Priest in Power Armour

Troops: Grey Hunters Pack (9#, 190 pts)
. . 8 Grey Hunters Pack (Mark of the Wulfen + Wolf Standard + Plasma gun)
. . . . 1 Rhino

Troops: Grey Hunters Pack (9#, 185 pts)
. . 8 Grey Hunters Pack (Mark of the Wulfen + Wolf Standard + Meltagun)
. . . . 1 Rhino

Troops: Grey Hunters Pack (6#, 150 pts)
. . 5 Grey Hunters Pack (Flamer)
. . . . 1 Razorback (Twin-Linked Lascannon)

Elite: Wolf Guard Pack (3#, 119 pts)
. . 1 Wolf Guard Pack
. . . . 1 Wolf Guard in Power Armour (Combi-Plasmagun + Wolf Claw)
. . . . 1 Wolf Guard in Power Armour (Combi-Meltagun + Power Fist)
. . . . 1 Wolf Guard in Power Armour (Plasma Pistol + Power Sword)

Heavy Support: Long Fangs Pack (6#, 170 pts)
. . 5 Long Fangs Pack (Lascannon x2 + Missile Launcher x3)
. . . . 1 Squad Leader

Heavy Support: Long Fangs Pack (6#, 160 pts)
. . 5 Long Fangs Pack (Missile Launcher x3 + Plasma Cannon x2)
. . . . 1 Squad Leader

Heavy Support: Whirlwind (1#, 95 pts)
. . 1 Whirlwind (Pintle-mounted Storm Bolter)

: Aegis Defence Lines (2#, 100 pts)
. . 1 Aegis Defence Lines
. . . . 1 Gun Emplacement (Quad-gun)

I feel a proper SW player/list should cream that list.

U have limited targets making good use of DPs to restrict movement with Cmelta termis, TWC with TH and lone wolves with CF

Add a splash of tau to finish

Like others have said too a proper necron list should also make short work of that.

IG should cruise through the Arm as well.

Whilst its true AV 14 became stronger vs Range, too many melee options will make butter out of ur LR

What proper necron list? I run a 6 flyer list that is undefeated i have 4 stormteks even with a change bringing in a doomscythe i will struggle to beat this. Warrior sp brings the gauss but is also the most susceptible the hurricane bolter fire. 16 4++ hullpoints are tough for necrons to deal with when tesla destructors can't help. A Zandrekh list might be able to deal with this but even with Zandrekh you only put 4 hull points on him that he gets a 4+ against and then he nails that unit.

If you already own the models, then by all means enjoy playing the army. A trend I've been noticing with the 6th ed FAQs is how game changing some of their rulings have been. Honestly, I think the biggest weakness of this list would be the next round of GW FAQs and praying it doesn't get gimped as GW has seemingly had trouble understanding the rules for their own game system.

 FlingitNow wrote:
What proper necron list? I run a 6 flyer list that is undefeated i have 4 stormteks even with a change bringing in a doomscythe i will struggle to beat this. Warrior sp brings the gauss but is also the most susceptible the hurricane bolter fire. 16 4++ hullpoints are tough for necrons to deal with when tesla destructors can't help. A Zandrekh list might be able to deal with this but even with Zandrekh you only put 4 hull points on him that he gets a 4+ against and then he nails that unit.

Ill ask my mate what his allcomers list is, ive seen him wave over a ful mech IG list with more av 14s that the above list with ease.

He does not use a flyer heavy list (flyers still not overloading our meta)

Shouldnt doom scythes also have a good time with the Bunched up vehicles eacy death ray hitting 2-3 tanks

Just a single good shot can pop 2-3 tanks. sure that 4+ inv can be good, but it by no way guarantees that they will survive, ap 1, will make them pop on 4+ same chance they have to survive, i have a hard time believing these have stood up to all they say they have. The dice gods must have been smiling on OP ALOT

Image Description:
Night fight turn 1. Space wolves go first and immobilize one of their own rhino's on the ADL. He moves to adjust his army to my deployment of all left flank. Night fight prevents anything really from happening. I advance a total of 18" with all 4 land raiders to close the distance.

Image Description:
SW Turn 2: He cast divination on long fangs.However, after all of his shooting the landraiders pass a 4++ save of a penetrate and a glance. He pulls his TWC back some as he wasnt able to charge and it would leave them exposed in front of my dakka raiders.
DA Turn 2: I move up some with 3 of the landraiders and pivot the middle land raider to shoot his long fangs they all die in the ensuing shooting phase. The other raiders target the rhino with the melta and combi melta in it and mange to wreck it.

Image Description:
SW turn 3: He decides to advance the TWC now as his troops are exposed. He manages to repair his immobilized rhino. His shooting again causes no damage because the pen that makes it through gets saved and the 2 lances also get saved(The 4++ was kind of hot this game). DA turn 3: I decide to just pivot and bring the full weight of fire to bare. I POTMS a MM at his newly working rhino but fail to penetrate. I manage to cause 2 wounds to his lord and 1 to another TWC. The raiders caused over 20 wounds on his grey hunters so they went to ground to save them. He pretty much had no choice and this at least keeps the dangerous melta off of me.

Image Description:
SW turn 4: His rhino up top advances towards the top objective and pops smoke. His shooting finally brings down the deathwing landraider (he had immobolized it and I had him re-roll and it exploded... should of let it stick but TWC looked hungry). Speaking of TWC they charge what remains of the deathwing terminators after his army kills 2 more. They manage to lock combat with 1 DWT still alive (*Face Palm*).
DA turn 4: I move backwards wanting nothing to do with the TWC and realizing I am gonna have to claim these objectives soon. My top raider POTMS an assault cannon at the rhino up top but he makes a pen save but a glance goes through. I POTMS an assault cannon at his razorback and immobilize it this time. MY DWT dies in combat and the wolves consolidate towards my TAC raider

SW Turn 5: His top rhino turns sideways and disembarks the squad on that objective. His grey hunters move up some on the bottom and the ones in his backfield move over a little to secure his home objective. He manages to shoot and glance the TAC land raider once. The TWC charge the TAC land raider but do no damage.
DA Turn 5: I have a tough choice to either stay in raiders or get out just in case game ends. I decide to get out as I think the threat level to them is low as long as I can kill his TWC. The Librarian jumps out of his raider to run over and contest his middle objective. Both tactical squads disembark onto objectives. The bottom squad shoots at the TWC along with the land raider and finally they fall to weight of dice. The top tac squad runs as they cant shoot over 12".

We roll to see if game continues and it does not.
Game ends: Me contesting 1 of his objectives and and claiming two of my own. In addition, I capture slay the warlord, and first blood. DA- VP 8 SW- VP 3 We played out what he would of done next turn but the game still ended in a DA victory.

Post Game AAR: I have always hated fighting against Wolf Lords and this match-up renewed that hatred. Had their not been a challenge in the DWT combat he would of wiped them all. It was a smart move by my opponent. He held the wolf lord back longer then he should of though. However, I can understand not wanting him to expose him needlessly. I finally lost my first land raider. My opponent said if he could change anything he would of played back hiding from them more until he needed to jump on objectives. Either way it was a GG and the DA Raider Spam remains undefeated still.

Cool battle report, wish I had more than 2 LR to run this type of list but I'm running my 2 now in a bit different config (maybe I'll get one more off ebay!)

With that said, how are you playing this on Vassel? The module for 6th edition isn't out yet. I've checked 40kNation but it seems it wont be out till February at the soonest. Would love to give this a whirl myself if I can grab a module that has the 6th edition ruleset.

I don't see why people like this list. Will it wreck people who don't prepare for it? Sure, AV14 is tough. Here's the problem: there's very few tournament winning lists that can't deal with this. Let me just elaborate:

Necrons with a scarab farm : This is terrible for you. You have no overwatch against them and they have a threat range of 12"+2d6 rerollable. If there's ruins in the centre of their deployment, that lets them control the centre of the board comfortably. You won't be able to shoot them to death as they're easy to hide and have stealth regardless. Really, your hope to beat these lists is hope the enemy screws up and reveals every single scarab in the unit - if he doesn't, you can't kill them and so his ENTIRE half board is a death trap.

Any marines+IG: Also terrible but less so. Does the inevitable guard blob have meltabombs? Well, that means your first turn is sit back and pew pew in the hopes of killing the entire unit before it can charge you. Good luck with that. Any of the marines have meltaguns? Well, that's another priority. Stormraven? Need to kill that. Terminators? Need to kill those too. Really, 4 LRs just can't effectively deal with this sort of army. In particular, Tony Kopachs army just laughs its way into your deployment zone between the guard blob with FnP and a 4++. Who cares that he won't kill all your tanks when he controls the entire board with bodies you can't kill enough of? Azrael armies will do the same.

Daemons: Terrible again. In fact, it's the worst so far. You'd be lucky to survive past T4 between the mass armourbane and glances. This is just a horrible match up.

What about Necron AV13 walls? Well, you need to prioritise the 2 command barges and, with good rolling, you kill one on average. That's not to mention the 3 ghost arks with stormteks or the fact that such armies have 50 gauss flayers they can bring to bear (more if they can somehow fire both sides, up to a max of 75), all of which are rapid fire, AV13 and have 5+ cover (or 4+ on the CCB when they flat out first turn).

All of these are common armies. All of these show up again and again to tournaments. This list reminds me of the old 3 monolith lists. Sure, they kill your guys and you can't kill them. Kinda irrelevant when they don't kill enough. I mean, what happens when you lose the banner? Some armies can do that and lucky rolling will see it done by T2 at the latest. What happens then when your troops are awful, your shooting is negligible and you've lost 430 points? What happens when the Librarian dies? This is a rock list, but it's not a particularly good one and it relies entirely on 2 models. Do you know what it beats? Pure foot lists. Almost anything else puts you in a tough position. Even then, Tyranids and Daemons put you in a bad position - an iron arm Tervigon/Swarmlord/Hive Tyrant which rolls +2/3 toughness will suddenly become immune to almost the entirety of your army.; flying MCs will just shrug you off and then kill your tanks. This is not a good list if you face someone who is remotely competent with a decent list. The "tactic" for this list appears to be "hope they don't know how to block movement, don't bring vehicles, don't prepare for AV14, don't know how to use cover and don't prioritise important targets, then shoot them to death". It won't work and if you take it to a serious tournament you will be destroyed.

i Agree i just see this list getting swamped in my meta,

ATM playing DA is pretty much a guarantee ull be facing av14 and 2+

Should be stacked with meltas and plasmas
Prob, some IG or Tau as allies to boot.

My game last night saw me drop pod 3 combiM/P units, wasn’t vs. DA, but had it been 3 units dp, combi melta, I should see 1 or 2 LR go down, those that don’t will have to contend with being blocked in by drop pods, slowing you down or restricting ur movement

Every turn you spend shooting down the remaining DP unit is a turn you’re not on the offensive, allowing me to maintain board control. Whilst whittling down your forces, once you lose a LR or two you lose your entire punch, and I should have a sizeable force still untouched to then throw at your remaining forces.

I just cant see it doing as well as it has been, but then again with the list you played against, little wonder.

 Tomb King wrote:

Pony_law wrote:
Yea I think this is a rock paper scissor list. Some armies will auto lose to it others will go through it like butter. Overall not that competative and likely to annoy the hell out of a good amount of casual gamers.

This list isn't for casual play. Make that clear right now. As for the list that would destroy this could you name some popular TAC meta builds that could wreck this list with ease?

I'm pretty confident I could take this build with my 1500 point list. Land Raiders are only good against people who don't have balanced armies.

 Kingsley wrote:

 Tomb King wrote:

Pony_law wrote:
Yea I think this is a rock paper scissor list. Some armies will auto lose to it others will go through it like butter. Overall not that competative and likely to annoy the hell out of a good amount of casual gamers.

This list isn't for casual play. Make that clear right now. As for the list that would destroy this could you name some popular TAC meta builds that could wreck this list with ease?

I'm pretty confident I could take this build with my 1500 point list. Land Raiders are only good against people who don't have balanced armies.

Lol, they are great against people who have balanced armies. Your preparing your TAC for multiple builds not just one. Just won again this time against foot guard with a manticore and vanquisher/hull las in support. List is 8-0.

I like this list. But if I play it, I'll take Deathwing Knights instead of terminators. Only 15 pts more expensive, but so much better in CC. And they can beat wolf cavalry in smite mod with ease.

Phaeton wrote:
I like this list. But if I play it, I'll take Deathwing Knights instead of terminators. Only 15 pts more expensive, but so much better in CC. And they can beat wolf cavalry in smite mod with ease.

Just my thought, DW Knights are much better than normal Termies. One round of smite per game will usually suffice for the killing blow.

 Tomb King wrote:
Lol, they are great against people who have balanced armies. Your preparing your TAC for multiple builds not just one. Just won again this time against foot guard with a manticore and vanquisher/hull las in support. List is 8-0.

Yes, but I take choices that maximize my ability to deal with a wide spectrum of builds. That's the point of an all-comers army-- it can face pretty much anyone and compete. For instance, my 1500 point all-comers build has two Vindicators, three TL Railguns, four melta weapons, two lascannons, and Null Zone. I am quite confident that it could deal with this army. While many components of my army will not be very effective against you (for instance my 24 Fire Warriors, Whirlwind, Quad-Gun, and Command Suit will be more or less worthless), the ones that are effective make up for it.

Where do you live? If you're close to the SF Bay Area I will happily go to your location and play against you.

a vulkan drop pod sternguard army can easily beat this list, but who does run that in tac anymore .

Although have you ever matched up against a railgun spam tau army? (much popular here specially with some sort of buffer in the front like 60 orcs) The orks wont be a problem for the crusader but 9 raılguns and droppin melta battlesuits might cause a problem.

Phaeton wrote:I like this list. But if I play it, I'll take Deathwing Knights instead of terminators. Only 15 pts more expensive, but so much better in CC. And they can beat wolf cavalry in smite mod with ease.

wuestenfux wrote:

Phaeton wrote:
I like this list. But if I play it, I'll take Deathwing Knights instead of terminators. Only 15 pts more expensive, but so much better in CC. And they can beat wolf cavalry in smite mod with ease.

Just my thought, DW Knights are much better than normal Termies. One round of smite per game will usually suffice for the killing blow.

I might end up doing this. Would improve their survivability a good amount and actually make them a threat to MC's. To find the points I could drop 3 of the dozer blades but those things have saved me countless times. Could also

pizzaguardian wrote:a vulkan drop pod sternguard army can easily beat this list, but who does run that in tac anymore .

Although have you ever matched up against a railgun spam tau army? (much popular here specially with some sort of buffer in the front like 60 orcs) The orks wont be a problem for the crusader but 9 raılguns and droppin melta battlesuits might cause a problem.

Well I think a good portion of armies struggle against vulk drop pod sternguard. However, that list is hard countered by non-mech builds that dont mind a couple of melta guns. I would have to castle in the corner if they brought that list out and try to minimize the effects he could have when he came in or possibly reserve some of the raiders depending the mission.

As for 9 rail-guns.. I am not sure how I would scale up against that as I have never played against tau that ran that many except once with my csm and I won that game by a massacre. I would probably pick one that was isolated and deep strike next to it. Then its just a matter of trying to force a leadership as they are only leadership 8.

I think the list is fun. It makes me want to ally my Imperial Guard army with Dark Angels to get a 4+ save on a few Leman Russ Battle Tanks. Azrael makes an IG blob rather nasty too. Maybe just run a DA army with an IG detachment with a 40-50 man guard blob to run with Azrael, a Vendetta Gunship (no reasoning needed), and a pack of 3 Leman Russ Tanks to utilize the practically un-killable AV14 with 4+ invulnerable cheese!!! I'd love to make a list that way, but I don't have the DA codex. When my DA playing friend comes over next, I'll have to take some time to make a list.

P.S. I don't mean cheesy in a bad way. Cheesy is always good. In my local meta, everyone seems to be a power player. Most people sell old / buy new armies with each edition release, and min-max under-costed units like they're going out of style. I end up seeing tournament winning army copies pretty regularly. I'd love to see how this list would run against a horde SW / IG list like this. Can the land raiders actually dish out enough firepower to stop this many scoring units? The only real question would be whether the land raiders could actually shoot the army off the board in time.

HQ1: Njal
HQ(Guard): Primaris Psyker

Wolf Guard x4, 4x Terminator Armor, 4x Powerfist

Lone Wolf, Terminator Armor, Stormshield, Chainfist
Lone Wolf, Terminator Armor, Stormshield, Chainfist

Grey Hunters x10, 2x Plasma, Banner
Grey Hunters x10, 2x Plasma, Banner
Grey Hunters x10, 2x Plasma, Banner
Grey Hunters x10, 2x Melta, Banner
Grey Hunters x5, Flamer

Platoon Command Squad
Infantry Squad, Power Weapon (Axe)
Infantry Squad, Power Weapon (Axe)
Infantry Squad, Power Weapon (Axe)
Infantry Squad, Power Weapon (Axe)
Infantry Squad

Vindicator
Vindicator

This list is one I ran in a little local tournament a few months back. It's an exact copy of a list from Space Wolves Grey Blogspot, except I swapped out his 2 5-man packs of Long Fangs with missile launchers for the 2 Vindicators. Most people told me that I shouldn't do that, but the S10 AP2 pie plates are SOOOO helpful. They alwasy perform well for their reasonable price tag. They either soak up a bunch of fire, letting the infantry move forward, geting Njall in range to use his sillyness, or they absolutely destroy something. I've had those 2 vindicators drop countless TEQs and tanks that would have been a pain to deal with spamming missiles. I know that tanks took a hit, this edition, and there is very little armor saturation, but they still seem to work well for me.

Good list, dude, very good. As many have said, it's rock/paper/scissors, but unfortunately most certain builds of 40k armies are like that i.e D.E Venom spam vs Tyranids.

Speaking of D.E Venoms, I think a list with 27 dark light weapons stands a good chance. Providing all dark light weapons can fire, you're looking at 27 shots hitting 18 times with 9 glance which you will save 5 out of, that means a dead Land Raider. Of course this wouldn't happen every single turn due to D.E taking damage.

I think maybe a triple Manticore and triple Vendetta list with melta-Vets could tackle this, maybe. Manticores would just bomb from a distance and your hurricane bolters cannot hurt the Guard tanks; only the assault cannons (lucky auto pens) and multi meltas.

Another list which may do this is Daemons; triple Flamers and Screamers backed with double headed chicken-man. The Flamers would need to pick on a single Land Raider a time, which they would get 8 glances on average and you would fail 4, which means a dead Land Raider. Also, considering you tightly pack your Land Raiders it's possible they could do two birds with one stone. Then the Screamers could kill infantry inside or tackle another Land Raider, though they would need to get some good rolls as on average they will hit 12.

Of course the Daemons won't like mass bolters in their face so you will badly hurt them with returning fire.

As a simple to build/paint/play list I think it's great, plus it is damn tough too

Erik the Red wrote:I think the list is fun. It makes me want to ally my Imperial Guard army with Dark Angels to get a 4+ save on a few Leman Russ Battle Tanks. Azrael makes an IG blob rather nasty too. Maybe just run a DA army with an IG detachment with a 40-50 man guard blob to run with Azrael, a Vendetta Gunship (no reasoning needed), and a pack of 3 Leman Russ Tanks to utilize the practically un-killable AV14 with 4+ invulnerable cheese!!! I'd love to make a list that way, but I don't have the DA codex. When my DA playing friend comes over next, I'll have to take some time to make a list.

P.S. I don't mean cheesy in a bad way. Cheesy is always good. In my local meta, everyone seems to be a power player. Most people sell old / buy new armies with each edition release, and min-max under-costed units like they're going out of style. I end up seeing tournament winning army copies pretty regularly. I'd love to see how this list would run against a horde SW / IG list like this. Can the land raiders actually dish out enough firepower to stop this many scoring units? The only real question would be whether the land raiders could actually shoot the army off the board in time.

HQ1: Njal
HQ(Guard): Primaris Psyker

Wolf Guard x4, 4x Terminator Armor, 4x Powerfist

Lone Wolf, Terminator Armor, Stormshield, Chainfist
Lone Wolf, Terminator Armor, Stormshield, Chainfist

Grey Hunters x10, 2x Plasma, Banner
Grey Hunters x10, 2x Plasma, Banner
Grey Hunters x10, 2x Plasma, Banner
Grey Hunters x10, 2x Melta, Banner
Grey Hunters x5, Flamer

Platoon Command Squad
Infantry Squad, Power Weapon (Axe)
Infantry Squad, Power Weapon (Axe)
Infantry Squad, Power Weapon (Axe)
Infantry Squad, Power Weapon (Axe)
Infantry Squad

Vindicator
Vindicator

This list is one I ran in a little local tournament a few months back. It's an exact copy of a list from Space Wolves Grey Blogspot, except I swapped out his 2 5-man packs of Long Fangs with missile launchers for the 2 Vindicators. Most people told me that I shouldn't do that, but the S10 AP2 pie plates are SOOOO helpful. They alwasy perform well for their reasonable price tag. They either soak up a bunch of fire, letting the infantry move forward, geting Njall in range to use his sillyness, or they absolutely destroy something. I've had those 2 vindicators drop countless TEQs and tanks that would have been a pain to deal with spamming missiles. I know that tanks took a hit, this edition, and there is very little armor saturation, but they still seem to work well for me.

In your list the vindicators, and one squad of grey hunters is all that can hurt the land raiders. Beyond that your army is just taking damage every turn and hoping to survive. It might come down to type of mission but if its 5 objectives your army isnt exactly a fast one. I could see the list having serious troubles dealing with my land raider list.

mercer wrote:Good list, dude, very good. As many have said, it's rock/paper/scissors, but unfortunately most certain builds of 40k armies are like that i.e D.E Venom spam vs Tyranids.

Speaking of D.E Venoms, I think a list with 27 dark light weapons stands a good chance. Providing all dark light weapons can fire, you're looking at 27 shots hitting 18 times with 9 glance which you will save 5 out of, that means a dead Land Raider. Of course this wouldn't happen every single turn due to D.E taking damage.

I think maybe a triple Manticore and triple Vendetta list with melta-Vets could tackle this, maybe. Manticores would just bomb from a distance and your hurricane bolters cannot hurt the Guard tanks; only the assault cannons (lucky auto pens) and multi meltas.

Another list which may do this is Daemons; triple Flamers and Screamers backed with double headed chicken-man. The Flamers would need to pick on a single Land Raider a time, which they would get 8 glances on average and you would fail 4, which means a dead Land Raider. Also, considering you tightly pack your Land Raiders it's possible they could do two birds with one stone. Then the Screamers could kill infantry inside or tackle another Land Raider, though they would need to get some good rolls as on average they will hit 12.

Of course the Daemons won't like mass bolters in their face so you will badly hurt them with returning fire.

As a simple to build/paint/play list I think it's great, plus it is damn tough too

Well manticores still need to hit and then roll of a 4 is only a glance and they are not ap 1 or 2. So the damage results would vary significantly. As for vendetta's the math isnt in their favor. With 9 TL shots at one land raider they will average 1.125 HP's taken off and only a 18% chance to blow up the vehicle in the case of a pen.

As for the daemons and flamers. Just remember that they have to hit as much of the target as possible with their template, so hitting multiple raiders might be hard.

Indeed, Manticores do not rock awesome AP, but saying they need to hit is like saying your guns need to hit and kind of stating the obvious but also a weak defence against them. Anyway, the blast templates only need to touch and be full strength and get 2D6 armour pen. With your Land Raiders bunched up the Manticores are bound to hit something.

It is true that the maths isn't in the 'Dettas favour; lascannons aren't brilliant for av14, that's what mass melta and Manticores are for. The Vendettas however have a 32% chance to cause some damage and with three of them firing along with the Manticores they will take something out.

Flamers, depends on your position of the Land Raiders. From your bat rep photos you could get multiple Flamers in position and hit multiple vehicles pretty easily, though this would be after deep strike.

 mercer wrote:
Indeed, Manticores do not rock awesome AP, but saying they need to hit is like saying your guns need to hit and kind of stating the obvious but also a weak defence against them. Anyway, the blast templates only need to touch and be full strength and get 2D6 armour pen. With your Land Raiders bunched up the Manticores are bound to hit something.

It is true that the maths isn't in the 'Dettas favour; lascannons aren't brilliant for av14, that's what mass melta and Manticores are for. The Vendettas however have a 32% chance to cause some damage and with three of them firing along with the Manticores they will take something out.

Flamers, depends on your position of the Land Raiders. From your bat rep photos you could get multiple Flamers in position and hit multiple vehicles pretty easily, though this would be after deep strike.

Ya the flamers would need to score a hit or land somewhat favorably to get those hits because if they wait a turn to get their effects then they are priority number 1 for me. Im not as worried about S5 armorbane as I am 4+ to glance x 9.

The Flamers probably would be best going for alpha strike and going for a single Land Raider at a time. I think that's there best chances.

Yeah, Screamers would need some good rolls; on average they are going to get 12. With their mass attacks (24) from a unit of six I think they may get the job done, maybe. Not as certain as Flamers though.

So you want to use land raiders... Bravo.

4 tanks is around 1000+ points with certain upgrades.

Trust me on this. Even with cover and that nifty wargear DA has won't help you much. Per round, you might lose a tank. Worst case, they get smart, pod in a suicide melta unit or scout in to take out the object tat give you the most benefits.

AV14 is nothing when it comes to battle sisters scouting an immolator with a dominion squad, or vanilla marines podding a stern guard squad of 10 with melta guns or combi melta and combat squad them. The worst is when space wolves shows up with their own scouts or outflank.

Still, you have steel balls to run this, but you will have to be careful at what you are shooting at. The enemy might have too many models on the table to kill or too many squads. In my place, there will never be an army that is less than 65 models and that also includes tanks and infantry support. Guard players i play with would have more than 100 infantry with a special weapon in each squad as an infantry screen for the other heavier options AND cost less than 300 points and fulfill FOC troop requirements.

If they have cheap transports, they will sacrifice tem to block LOS a a desperate measure to advance infantry.

Land raiders have power of the machine spirit. You have 4 land raiders for example. You have 8 shots at full BS at 8 different targets if you advance at combat speed.

If you take terminator squads or death wing knights, you do not have much infantry to support your tanks and they are out gunned and out squaded. And all you have is that piece of wargear to save your tanks, but every thing must be close by,

You are placing all your bets on that power field generator. With 25 infantry models to support 4 land raiders. ONE elite unit of five men.

This army is only good for fun, but competitive... No it is not.

You only have 30+ odd models on the table. Your combat effectiveness is already low, with weapon ranges of 24 and a threat range of 36 inches for your shooting, also relying on the banner to salvo your bolters on the crusaders, with only 4 multi meltas on them tanks.

AND you still want to argue you can win? Statistically, you would win little, but lose lots. After viewing 4 pages on this thread, a TAC list hat is weary of infantry saves of 2+ will chew this them tanks up after your banner of devastation and that force generator is gone. You only have two things that make this list works and if they are obliterated, you are finished.

But I love this list of yours. It screams space marine style. Dispute what I have written, the force of the rule of cool is within this list.

wallacethe5 wrote:
AV14 is nothing when it comes to battle sisters scouting an immolator with a dominion squad, or vanilla marines podding a stern guard squad of 10 with melta guns or combi melta and combat squad them. The worst is when space wolves shows up with their own scouts or outflank.

How often do you really see any of these things in a list? I have personally never seen a Sisters army ( but I would like to, I think they're pretty cool). I've never seen a SW player using scouts - lots of drop pods, which could hurt this list some. I have also never seen someone run a sternguard squad with 10 melta guns, that is silly, and would defeat the point of taking sternguard(the special ammo). The large amount of combi-melta could hurt, as that is more plausible, but still not going to be that many in most TAC lists.

wallacethe5 wrote:
In my place, there will never be an army that is less than 65 models and that also includes tanks and infantry support. Guard players i play with would have more than 100 infantry with a special weapon in each squad as an infantry screen for the other heavier options AND cost less than 300 points and fulfill FOC troop requirements.
Land raiders have power of the machine spirit. You have 4 land raiders for example. You have 8 shots at full BS at 8 different targets if you advance at combat speed.

That is 8 weapon, not 8 shots. 8 Hurricane Bolters would be 12 shots*8=96 twin-linked BS4 shots per turn, ignoring the armor on those guardsmen. I would think this would take them out fairly efficiently. Oh, and add in the 16 twin-linked assault cannon shots at BS1, and the 4 MM shots at BS1. Depending on the target, you can switch up what goes at full BS.

wallacethe5 wrote:
You only have 30+ odd models on the table. Your combat effectiveness is already low, with weapon ranges of 24 and a threat range of 36 inches for your shooting, also relying on the banner to salvo your bolters on the crusaders, with only 4 multi meltas on them tanks.

The biggest problem for this list will be other high-armor lists, yes, there are only 4 major threats here to other AV14 (the assault cannons are a small threat to them as well).

wallacethe5 wrote:
Statistically, you would win little, but lose lots.

I do believe that most of what has been posted in this thread refutes this claim.

wallacethe5 wrote:
After viewing 4 pages on this thread, a TAC list hat is weary of infantry saves of 2+ will chew this them tanks up after your banner of devastation and that force generator is gone.

Not really sure what you are trying to say here. Are you saying this list will have a hard time dealing with terminators?

I ran this list (or at least a pretty close list) a couple days ago and got smoked by a triple Obliterator Chaos build. The Land Raider list is cool, but a couple lucky shots and this list goes south quick.

The initial Oblit drop yeilded not a scratch on my Land Raiders. I shot one unit dead, and cleared about 5 Spawn that were accompying a lord w/ melta bomb.

THe next turn the last unit of Oblitz came down and destroyed one Raider, while the other unit I couldnt dispose of, got through my 4++ on the Libby's Land Raider exploding that one as well. Then the Helldrakes cleaned up one of the Tac squads. The oblits also made a 7" charge through terrain and got to my Libby....locking him in place.

I killed a lot of the CHaos army when all was said and done, but all my infantry was gone, and one lone Raider remained. Cultists grabbed some objectives and that was that.

The list is fun...to play, I dont know how fun it is for my opponent.

Well thats just it, I think it scores points for creativity and I don't want to sound negative but the list doesn't have to range or mobility to win against a strong tournament IMO. By strong tournament I mean one that runs top tier balanced armies not that horribad SW list you posted in vassal.

Sorry but that list literally had a wolf lord, one melta gun and a combi melta that could threaten your tanks and your posting it with a straight face saying 'still 8-0 lol'. This is why I asked 2 pages ago for your opponents army lists when you were "beating face" because if they were similar to that one I am not surprised, heck any armor saturation would man handle that list.

 Red Corsair wrote:
Sorry but that list literally had a wolf lord, one melta gun and a combi melta that could threaten your tanks.p.

Don't forget the 2 LF lascannons and twin-linked lascannon.

Why would you take a Power Sword on a TWC?
Plasma Cannon Long Fangs?
Whirlwind???
Yikes.

Norbu the Destroyer wrote:
I ran this list (or at least a pretty close list) a couple days ago and got smoked by a triple Obliterator Chaos build. The Land Raider list is cool, but a couple lucky shots and this list goes south quick.

The initial Oblit drop yeilded not a scratch on my Land Raiders. I shot one unit dead, and cleared about 5 Spawn that were accompying a lord w/ melta bomb.

THe next turn the last unit of Oblitz came down and destroyed one Raider, while the other unit I couldnt dispose of, got through my 4++ on the Libby's Land Raider exploding that one as well. Then the Helldrakes cleaned up one of the Tac squads. The oblits also made a 7" charge through terrain and got to my Libby....locking him in place.

I killed a lot of the CHaos army when all was said and done, but all my infantry was gone, and one lone Raider remained. Cultists grabbed some objectives and that was that.

The list is fun...to play, I dont know how fun it is for my opponent.

Yea now imagine null zone and drop podding stern guard combat squading 6" out the pods. They would wrap your tank phalanx and melta blast it from every angle and then leave you with MSU threats plus the congestion of the pods. This isn't an uncommon build either.

I think the idea is sound but I would run 2 LR and more scoring units personally, to me 4 seems way to easy to out maneuver. By the way I believe in a decent LOS blocking piece of terrain in the center of the table as do most TO's which is why 4 landraiders seems easily countered to me by mobile armies like DE.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 pretre wrote:

 Red Corsair wrote:
Sorry but that list literally had a wolf lord, one melta gun and a combi melta that could threaten your tanks.p.

Don't forget the 2 LF lascannons and twin-linked lascannon.

Why would you take a Power Sword on a TWC?
Plasma Cannon Long Fangs?
Whirlwind???
Yikes.

Ha ha good catch Pretre I forgot how amazing a couple LC can be against AV14

Yea I laughed at the PW as well, by the time I got to the heavy support I couldn't take that list seriously

Heres a small combo that will quickly and almost always drop a LR t1

Libby with null and vortex
Pod with 5 stern and 4 combi melta

You could see this combo with most SM armies they will have the components they just need to start the libby in the sternguard and boom not only do you have an annoying dp in your way but you are down a land laider and probably in trouble since they will most likely target the one containing the shield then all they have to do is focus down the shield and you're boned

 A GumyBear wrote:
Heres a small combo that will quickly and almost always drop a LR t1

Libby with null and vortex
Pod with 5 stern and 4 combi melta

You could see this combo with most SM armies they will have the components they just need to start the libby in the sternguard and boom not only do you have an annoying dp in your way but you are down a land laider and probably in trouble since they will most likely target the one containing the shield then all they have to do is focus down the shield and you're boned

4cm shots is less than 30% chance to kill a DW landraider with Nullzone assumed to be cast. So this surething seems some what hopeful. Yes you could kill a landraider but you are unlikely to. The biggest issue the list has from a tournament perspective is a couple of lucky shots beats the list and over a tournament that is bound to happen once.

 A GumyBear wrote:
Heres a small combo that will quickly and almost always drop a LR t1

Libby with null and vortex
Pod with 5 stern and 4 combi melta

You could see this combo with most SM armies they will have the components they just need to start the libby in the sternguard and boom not only do you have an annoying dp in your way but you are down a land laider and probably in trouble since they will most likely target the one containing the shield then all they have to do is focus down the shield and you're boned

As stated above I dont see that combo almost always dropping a land raider.

As stated above if someone thinks they have a winning list to bring this down without pure tailoring then your welcome to get a game with me on vassal. I am probably too far to play in person.

I've wanted to run a list like this for awhile.

But what happens if I drop one of the LRs and the associated tactical squad and bring a couple Vendettas and accoutrement?

It looks like a VERY solid list but it's not unstoppable. Enough anti tank, scoring units and your done for...

One problem I see is you are basing your bravado about this list on how well it plays in Vassal....which does not acurately capture real life game conditions, such as true line of sight. From the screens you posted, the close grouping you have the LRs in will limit half of your shooting. During the first few turns, those middle LRs can't shoot at anything really unless its directly in front of them or directly behind them.

A common SM tactic is 10 sternguard, combat squaded,with loads of melta and plasma combi bolters in a drop pod with another drop pod w/a MM dread. Somebody mentioned adding a libby with Null Zone and Vortex powers, and you don't seem to think this would have any effect???

Statistically, the melta sternguard combat squad will average 4 hits, all penetrating (the average penetration roll is 7 after all). You are only going to save on 1-2 of these, so with 2-3 unsaved penetrating hits, you are looking at a blown up LR. Then the plasma sternguard open up on the banner squad with their plasma shots.

Oh, and then there is also the dreadnaught drop pod. Not as likely to pop a LR, but then, that field save may no longer be available either due to the now reduced range from being outside the LR, or due to the possible (but unlikely) death of the HQ carrying it. And then any lascannons in your opponents army will open up, possibly opening up another LR. So by the end of Turn 1, half of your army may be gone, and your key trick combo now nullified. All from a fairly typical TAC list.

And heaven forbid that 2nd combat squad of sternguard also be melta armed (not terribly likely as this is a TAC list)....that's 3 of 4 LR dead.

I'd love to see reports from more folks that have actually played this list in a real game, using real terrain, and not a 2-D computer simulation. While it will most certainly give some armies fits, I think its not as unbeatable to a TAC list as Tomb King believes. DE Lance spam, another common build, should have very little trouble with this list, given its speed and manuverability. A single Wytch squad could potentially charge 2 LRs by turn 2, and unload with Haywire grenades. Likely looking at another dead LR from that.

Its appropriate that this list is only available to DA, because it should be called The Rock...a single, large, hard target just waiting for a hammer or two to smash it apart (even a glass one).

I like this list better with just a Command Squad with a Dev Banner in a LR with the equivalent number of twin-linked bolters mounted on Ravenwing bikes as there are on 3 more LR's.

A LR costs about the same as a RW AS with a MM AB. They both have the equivalent firepower except, the bikes are so much more mobile and are shut down with a single lucky shot.

I do like the toughness a LR adds to the Dev Banner though - its almost required because if its mounted on a biker Command squad it becomes alot easier to shut down.

 ClassicCarraway wrote:
One problem I see is you are basing your bravado about this list on how well it plays in Vassal....which does not acurately capture real life game conditions, such as true line of sight. From the screens you posted, the close grouping you have the LRs in will limit half of your shooting. During the first few turns, those middle LRs can't shoot at anything really unless its directly in front of them or directly behind them.

A common SM tactic is 10 sternguard, combat squaded,with loads of melta and plasma combi bolters in a drop pod with another drop pod w/a MM dread. Somebody mentioned adding a libby with Null Zone and Vortex powers, and you don't seem to think this would have any effect???

Statistically, the melta sternguard combat squad will average 4 hits, all penetrating (the average penetration roll is 7 after all). You are only going to save on 1-2 of these, so with 2-3 unsaved penetrating hits, you are looking at a blown up LR. Then the plasma sternguard open up on the banner squad with their plasma shots.

Oh, and then there is also the dreadnaught drop pod. Not as likely to pop a LR, but then, that field save may no longer be available either due to the now reduced range from being outside the LR, or due to the possible (but unlikely) death of the HQ carrying it. And then any lascannons in your opponents army will open up, possibly opening up another LR. So by the end of Turn 1, half of your army may be gone, and your key trick combo now nullified. All from a fairly typical TAC list.

And heaven forbid that 2nd combat squad of sternguard also be melta armed (not terribly likely as this is a TAC list)....that's 3 of 4 LR dead.

I'd love to see reports from more folks that have actually played this list in a real game, using real terrain, and not a 2-D computer simulation. While it will most certainly give some armies fits, I think its not as unbeatable to a TAC list as Tomb King believes. DE Lance spam, another common build, should have very little trouble with this list, given its speed and manuverability. A single Wytch squad could potentially charge 2 LRs by turn 2, and unload with Haywire grenades. Likely looking at another dead LR from that.

Its appropriate that this list is only available to DA, because it should be called The Rock...a single, large, hard target just waiting for a hammer or two to smash it apart (even a glass one).

I wish it were a perfect world and everything went as planned. You talk of killing a AV14 4HP vehicle like its a land speeder. The 335 points for a sternguard squad decked out with 10 melta guns and a drop pod. Then you need that drop pod to land close enough to get into melta range. Then if you combat squad they have a 37% chance to destroy land raider and average 1.2 hp's. This is in a vaccum assuming you can deep strike and get all 5 of them in range to get their shots off within melta range. If you shoot all 10 at one land raider then you have a 74% chance of destroying the land raider and average 2.4hp's. Then your just down to two melta's.. so if the one trick pony doesn't work as planned then it will be a rough next turn.

This list seems hilarious to play. 4 Land Raider Crusaders? Sound crazy, in a good way.

Thanks for sharing vassal batrep. Do you have the models for this? Could you consider sharing a full tabletop report of a game with this army, once you can get a game going?

 Tomb King wrote:

 ClassicCarraway wrote:
One problem I see is you are basing your bravado about this list on how well it plays in Vassal....which does not acurately capture real life game conditions, such as true line of sight. From the screens you posted, the close grouping you have the LRs in will limit half of your shooting. During the first few turns, those middle LRs can't shoot at anything really unless its directly in front of them or directly behind them.

A common SM tactic is 10 sternguard, combat squaded,with loads of melta and plasma combi bolters in a drop pod with another drop pod w/a MM dread. Somebody mentioned adding a libby with Null Zone and Vortex powers, and you don't seem to think this would have any effect???

Statistically, the melta sternguard combat squad will average 4 hits, all penetrating (the average penetration roll is 7 after all). You are only going to save on 1-2 of these, so with 2-3 unsaved penetrating hits, you are looking at a blown up LR. Then the plasma sternguard open up on the banner squad with their plasma shots.

Oh, and then there is also the dreadnaught drop pod. Not as likely to pop a LR, but then, that field save may no longer be available either due to the now reduced range from being outside the LR, or due to the possible (but unlikely) death of the HQ carrying it. And then any lascannons in your opponents army will open up, possibly opening up another LR. So by the end of Turn 1, half of your army may be gone, and your key trick combo now nullified. All from a fairly typical TAC list.

And heaven forbid that 2nd combat squad of sternguard also be melta armed (not terribly likely as this is a TAC list)....that's 3 of 4 LR dead.

I'd love to see reports from more folks that have actually played this list in a real game, using real terrain, and not a 2-D computer simulation. While it will most certainly give some armies fits, I think its not as unbeatable to a TAC list as Tomb King believes. DE Lance spam, another common build, should have very little trouble with this list, given its speed and manuverability. A single Wytch squad could potentially charge 2 LRs by turn 2, and unload with Haywire grenades. Likely looking at another dead LR from that.

Its appropriate that this list is only available to DA, because it should be called The Rock...a single, large, hard target just waiting for a hammer or two to smash it apart (even a glass one).

I wish it were a perfect world and everything went as planned. You talk of killing a AV14 4HP vehicle like its a land speeder. The 335 points for a sternguard squad decked out with 10 melta guns and a drop pod. Then you need that drop pod to land close enough to get into melta range. Then if you combat squad they have a 37% chance to destroy land raider and average 1.2 hp's. This is in a vaccum assuming you can deep strike and get all 5 of them in range to get their shots off within melta range. If you shoot all 10 at one land raider then you have a 74% chance of destroying the land raider and average 2.4hp's. Then your just down to two melta's.. so if the one trick pony doesn't work as planned then it will be a rough next turn.

Your right, people underestimate how tough these vehicles are. Even with 10 meltagun sterngaurd it's not a auto win and even if the take down 1 landraider, the will still die next round. 3 big landraiders can block the one important landraider so that their droppodmelta's cannot reach 6 inch. When you have to reroll your 4+ inv save (null zone) doesnt mean it wont work.

This also works the other way around and a few lucky shots could take down your landraiders. Thats the price of this "trick".

I love the maths genius that thinks 21/36 is auto pen on all shots. average dice on 1d6 is 3.5 does that mean space marines never miss?

As people (including me) have pointed out the sg melta attack isn't actually that likely to work. particularly if he finds the extra 60 points to make a full venerable frontage.

But yes over a tournament a couple of lucky shots beats this list.

Loving the list Tomb King, but why not drop the tac squads and termies to get 100% more firepower and an AA dread?

Librarian 95
Bolt Pistol, Force Sword, Frag and Krak Grenades, Power Field Generator
Command Squad 165
Dev Standard

5 Scouts x2

Ravenwing Darktalon 480pts
Ravenwing Darktalon
Ravenwing Darktalon

Land Raider Crusader (265pts) x3
Melta, Dozer.

Contemptor Mortis Dreadnought
TL AC, Cyclone Missile Launcher

I think a lot of the strength of this list depends on terrain placement rolls.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
As I sometimes play a similar GK LR list and placing your own lines of fire and cover are huge to the alpha strike and beta strike capabilities of this list.

Asmodai Asmodean wrote:
Loving the list Tomb King, but why not drop the tac squads and termies to get 100% more firepower and an AA dread?

Librarian 95
Bolt Pistol, Force Sword, Frag and Krak Grenades, Power Field Generator
Command Squad 165
Dev Standard

5 Scouts x2

Ravenwing Darktalon 480pts
Ravenwing Darktalon
Ravenwing Darktalon

Land Raider Crusader (265pts) x3
Melta, Dozer.

Contemptor Mortis Dreadnought
TL AC, Cyclone Missile Launcher

My variant trades the high S firepower for more resiliency. What makes my list so painful is you need to go through AV-14 just to start hurting me. So basically if I take out the things in your army that can hurt AV-14 then the game is effectively over for you depending what the mission is of course and situation.

VRBs were his tailored Dark Eldar answer to this? He did it wrong. 3 Ravagers with Dark Lances, 2 Venoms full of Blasterborn, Blaster Reaver squads, and Wyches with Haywire grenades would be my solution.

 A GumyBear wrote:
Heres a small combo that will quickly and almost always drop a LR t1

Libby with null and vortex
Pod with 5 stern and 4 combi melta

You could see this combo with most SM armies they will have the components they just need to start the libby in the sternguard and boom not only do you have an annoying dp in your way but you are down a land laider and probably in trouble since they will most likely target the one containing the shield then all they have to do is focus down the shield and you're boned

I love sterngaurd and own around 15 combi melta/ melta gun sternguard guys, and sadly it is not guaranteed to take out land raiders, game before last I used 5 in a pod failed to touch a bastion, 2 miss then all 3 that hit fail to pen, few games before that when I used 5 sternguard in pod against a BA land raider who had shield of sang in his army got two through which were saved, and another time two pens gets through which failed to blow it up.

The tricks DA have for the land raiders are pretty good, saved a crusader yesterday by making my opponent re roll his pen roll, went from a 6 to a 5. Star of that game was land raider achilles that laughs off most stuff, av14 which ignores melta, lance and minus one to any damage roll, add in a techmarine inside with servo harness and two servitors I was repairing the immobilised result on a 2 plus and hull points on a 2 plus and with a power field gen giving it a 4 plus save, pretty beasty, expensive yea but it was a big game


Plus 10 sternguard in pod is 335points, plus in a libby with null zone is another 100pts, points wise they are hardly that cheap when they wont 100% kill a land raider yea there is a chance they will kill both but not 100% but they pretty much are guarenteed to be killed in return.

This list isn't for casual play. Make that clear right now. As for the list that would destroy this could you name some popular TAC meta builds that could wreck this list with ease?

K so I am new here at DAKA, I joined to respond to this. I play guard arty, and the new rules and necessity of tight formations for the banner mean that I will nick at least one of your raiders with even my MoO. I'd have you cracked open before my foot sloggers got on the board. Also, as with any Lynchpin army you should expect everyone to gun for your command vic. True that if they cant crack the command vic before you get to their side you should pretty much always win. Some armies besides arty you should expect trouble from: Deamons with Flamer spam, Necrons, and the good old fashioned god killer lists that feature other raiders or plenty of heavy weapons teams. Another big problem you end up with is targeting MSU lists. Sure you obliterate anything you shoot at, but an MSU build can have upwards of 30 objective claimers and you can only kill 4 per turn. It is a very cool idea though, love to hear how it works out. I had been considering the Banner of Devastation with Bikes for twinlinked goodness but yours is better I think.

For 1750 why not try this

Libby termie armour and PF gen 125pts
DW command squad with salvo banner 265pts
LR crusader with dw upgrade (DT for command squad) 280

tac squad 140
tac squad 140

LR crusader with mm 260
lr crusader ith mm 260
lr crusader with mm 260

comes out as 1750 on the dot.

 Tomb King wrote:

Asmodai Asmodean wrote:
Loving the list Tomb King, but why not drop the tac squads and termies to get 100% more firepower and an AA dread?

Librarian 95
Bolt Pistol, Force Sword, Frag and Krak Grenades, Power Field Generator
Command Squad 165
Dev Standard

5 Scouts x2

Ravenwing Darktalon 480pts
Ravenwing Darktalon
Ravenwing Darktalon

Land Raider Crusader (265pts) x3
Melta, Dozer.

Contemptor Mortis Dreadnought
TL AC, Cyclone Missile Launcher

My variant trades the high S firepower for more resiliency. What makes my list so painful is you need to go through AV-14 just to start hurting me. So basically if I take out the things in your army that can hurt AV-14 then the game is effectively over for you depending what the mission is of course and situation.

Yeah, but the Deathwing LR isn't scoring and sort of mills about in the back not accomplishing much most of the time, its too big to fit in the front line. The Dark Talons can screen the main LR force against melta threats and have Blind, which could be useful.
.

MarkyMark wrote:
For 1750 why not try this

Libby termie armour and PF gen 125pts
DW command squad with salvo banner 265pts
LR crusader with dw upgrade (DT for command squad) 280

tac squad 140
tac squad 140

LR crusader with mm 260
lr crusader ith mm 260
lr crusader with mm 260

comes out as 1750 on the dot.

That works... your basically saving the points that were spent on the command squad. The only issue now is your terminators are just glorified banner bearers. They cant get in the fight without risking the banner.

Still waiting to see the other army lists you trounced. That SW list was utter garbage and not a tac list at all, so if the other were similar I am not so impressed.

So, the program you are using to test your lists, is it an online game of 40k basically? Do they regularly update the rules? I have never heard of it before this thread.

I'm fairly confident my TAC DA list could take this.

I run.

HQ- Libby ML2 with powerfield

Troops- Tactical squad with Melta, combi-melta razorback with TLLC and Dozerblade

Troops- Tactical squad with Melta, combi-melta razorback with TLLC and Dozerblade

Troops- Tactical squad with plasma, combi-plasma razorback with TLLC and Dozerblade

Troops- Tactical Squad with Lascannon

Troops- Tactical Squad with Lascannon

Fast Attack- Landspeeder w/ MM/HF

Fast Attack- Landspeeder w/ MM/HF

Fast Attack- 2x Landspeeder with Tyhpoon/HB

Elites- Dreadnought w/ 2x TL Autocannon

Elites- Dreadnought w/ 2x TL Autocannon

Heavy Support- Vindicator w/ dozerblade

Heavy Support- Vindicator w/ dozerblade

Heavy Support- Vindicator w/ dozerblade

Fortification- Aegis Line w/ Quadgun

This clocks in around 1845pts.

The vindi's supported by the powerfield will punish you for trying to use the powerfield. Las cannons on razorbacks and tac squads will threaten land raiders. As backups, I can deep strike landspeeders or send in melta-squads in the razorbacks. The typhoons, dreads, and aegis line will be of little use until I crack one of the LR. The AV 13 on the vindis will more than handle the firepower you have on the LR.

The list seems like it would make for the most boring games ever. If your opponent can fight land raiders well (necrons) than it is pretty much GG, but if they can't you will sit on them and beat them silly for 5-7 turns.

I would never rate VASSAL a good judge of what a list can do due to being 2D and 90% of the people that plan on there lack skill/good lists.

Or do you think it's a good judge of the list as good where the only regular Tau player on there only has 2 Railguns and 2 Meltaguns and a boatload of just S5? Hint -- It's not a great Tau list by a long shot.

I don't think Raiderspam works in practice because you cannot score inside a vehicle, I think it is possibly worth it to plan around 1 and go from there, however.

This list gets taken apart by anything designed to be competitive. Keeping the tanks together makes for a very static army if they are made to split apart they lose a lot of what makes them decent.

 nolzur wrote:
So, the program you are using to test your lists, is it an online game of 40k basically? Do they regularly update the rules? I have never heard of it before this thread.

Yea its vassal. With 40k version 5.4f which hasnt been updated to 6th edition yet but they did put out a terrain update for the fortifications. It helps me judge how some list work together and since its hard for me to find time for games it keeps me fresh on the rules and tactics I need for the tournament scene. Been practicing my indy open list and I think I finally got it down. Fortunately I am not bringing the 4 raiders haha. Though I am sure it would go far in the gt. Hell it could probably beat the tac list im bringing. Lol